May 13, 2024 โข 58 mins
When the world seems brimming with division, can the concepts of DEI and cultural intelligence be the bridge to unity? That's the question at the heart of our conversation with Taj Suleyman, DEI Director for the City of Springfield, Missouri. Together, we venture into the nuances of language power dynamics and the regional cultural quirks that shape our discussions on social issues. Taj brings his seasoned perspective to the table, illuminating how charged terms might obstruct or pave the way to genuine understanding and progress.
Navigating the sensitive terrains of privilege and power, this episode uncovers the dual nature of privilegeโboth the shadows it casts and the potential light it can shed on pathways to change. We share candid personal stories that reflect the diverse spectrums of upbringing and survival, and how these narratives weave into our capacity to foster connections across cultural lines. The dialogue takes a deep look at the intricacies of deconstructing and reconstructing societal systems, with inclusivity at the core of the conversation. It's a reflection on leadership, empathy, and the roles we play within our communities.
In the wake of pivotal social justice movements, the imperative for equity and inclusion has never been clearer. We delve into how conversations around diversity can catalyze change, emphasizing the critical role of emotional intelligence and empathy in acknowledging the complex mosaic of identities. This episode does not merely aim to dissect the concepts; it strives to understand the practical implementation of fostering a sense of belonging and recognizing the rich tapestry of intercultural identities. Join us as we explore the continuous journey toward a society where diversity and inclusion are not endpoints but part of an ever-evolving process.
๐๐ฌ๐ค ๐พ๐๐๐ฅ๐จ โ ๐๐๐ฃ๐ฎ ๐พ๐ช๐ก๐ฉ๐ช๐ง๐๐จ is the worldโs #1 show on the business of culture and the culture of business. Christian Hรถferle and Brett Parry ponder culture in short bursts and deep dives, featuring your questions and comments related to culture, business, and personal growth.
Be sure to check out and subscribe to our YouTube channel for even more great content: https://www.youtube.com/@TwoChapsManyCultures
Visit https://theculturemastery.com/ for more information about the skills for working in a global context.
The music on this episode is provided courtesy of Sepalot.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
When we talk about dealing with people from
different backgrounds andcultures, very often the topic
of diversity comes into theconversation.
Diversity, equity, inclusion,dei a term specifically in North
America that has gone throughthe sociopolitical ringer.
(00:20):
It is charged up with differentmeanings, it is opposed against
, it is fought for.
Is it really necessary?
Can we talk about inclusivebehaviors without the political
charge?
We have a guest today that willhelp us unpack some of that.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Welcome to 2Chap's Many Cultures.
In an increasingly globallyconnected world, it is vital to
possess the essential skills ofcultural intelligence.
Listen along as we present thetopics, tips and strategies you
can use to develop the power ofcultural understanding in your
personal and professional life.
(01:03):
Here are your hosts ChristianHuffala and Brett Parry.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Welcome back to Two Chaps.
Many Cultures.
That is the name of this show.
I'm Brett, he's Christian andwe have names and, as we always
learn, when we put a name tosomething, should it always
stick?
Well, obviously, if you're bornwith a name and you're given a
name, that's what people get toknow you as.
What about larger topics,larger things that we are
(01:31):
interacting with on a day-to-daybasis?
Do we actually name them withsome intentionality?
And what happens if peopleidentify that name with
something that may be negativeor something that causes
problems in a societal sense?
So we're going to talk aboutthat today.
Before we do and we introduceour wonderful guest, as
Christian says, we're going toask you to hit the subscribe
(01:54):
button, ring that bell onYouTube if you want to be
notified of all of the newepisodes that come out every
week here.
And also don't forget ourpodcast now, which is live
across all kinds of platformsApple, Spotify, amazon Music,
now on iHeartRadio.
By the way, we're on the radio,imagine that, which is good for
(02:17):
us, because radio is.
We've got good faces for radio.
Let's get into the topic fortoday.
We're going to talk aboutwhat's in a name, what is in a
description, what is a name of aconcept or a practice,
especially in terms of theprofessional sense.
And we've got our wonderfulguest here, mr Taj Suleiman.
(02:37):
Welcome to the Two Chaps ManyCultures studio and again, just
deep gratitude for you joiningus today, sir.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Thank you for having me and I appreciate it.
It's nice to be added now.
I don't know if you should callit three chaps just for today,
but I appreciate.
I've always appreciate yourauthentic conversations of how
you guys have previously, so I'mhonored that I'm invited.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Most certainly.
Wassalamu alaikum, taj, thanksfor being here.
Tell us a little bit whatbrings you to this conversation
about diversity, equity,inclusion.
Why do you think we brought youhere?
To make us three chaps for thisepisode?
Tell us a little bit about yourbackground, yeah yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Well, it's hard to ask why if you haven't hit an
agenda.
So you know I'll have to nowcheck with you.
I'll have to ask you why am Ihere?
I'm being interviewed.
You asked me why you're here,but you know what I've actually,
through my very brief peeks onyou know your interaction I
(03:57):
really appreciated it.
Like I said, it's authentic,it's simple, it's also in a way
where anyone can relate to thisconversation, the wondering, the
curiosity that I've always, youknow I've always grown up, you
know, I've always been raised byby just asking the question.
So I appreciate those questionsthat are not attached to any,
(04:21):
any agendas, if you will.
So so that's something I wantedto put out there too.
Also, as we have seen, you arealready part of what we have in
common, the three of us theintercultural field and also
somewhat the DEI slash, theinternational experiences we're
seeing more and more nationallyin the United States, the
(04:43):
conversations, even prior to thebuzzword around DEI, as you may
know, in our interculturalsettings the conversations have
always been, you know, is iteither, or Is it a combination
of social justice theoreticalframework or intercultural
(05:06):
theoretical framework?
If we are addressing achallenge, a social challenge or
social issues, which tool do weuse and which one is more
leaning towards?
And part will address the powerdynamic while you're putting
labels on, maybe, individuals,situations, systems.
(05:26):
It's now becoming more and morehard to use a term that it's
going to have multiple doors,basically, to define it.
If I wanted to define race, orif I wanted to define racism, or
if I wanted to definedisparities, these are all
(05:48):
charged with lots of emotions,lots of notions that often can
set you in an interesting, Iwould say, tone, even when
you're trying to, whethereducate or facilitate or address
.
It's becoming everything hasbasically several labels that
(06:12):
often can either hinder or cansound like oh, finally, I heard
that word, I need to engage withthis anymore because it has,
you know, the divisive or.
Oh, here we go again.
(06:33):
So, what are the ways?
I guess we're trying to findways.
You know how?
What is next?
Basically, are we comfortablewith utilizing terms?
Are we comfortable with drivingtowards positive change in
where we are, without beingmindful of the audiences or
(06:55):
without being mindful of theregional, cultural, you know,
around regions where we are inthis country?
So I don't know if you have yettalked about it, but I really
would like you know through yourexpertise or your you know,
your inquiries with me,interaction with me.
I'd like to explore that withyou and hopefully, whoever is
going you know is going to watchus or is watching us I'd like
(07:19):
to also get their input.
It's worth having thisconversation.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
What brings you to this field of DEI?
Your job title currently isyou're the DEI officer for the
city of Springfield, Missouri,correct?
Speaker 4 (07:32):
Correct, director?
Yes, director.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
So you're not a native of Springfield, Missouri,
though, are you?
Speaker 4 (07:39):
No, no, I'm not a native, I wasn't born.
If that's what you mean, I wasnot born.
And you mean I was not born,and you know, I was born and
raised in Lebanon, the country,and I have to make it clear
because there is about an houraway from here, a small city
called Lebanon, lebanon.
Lebanon, same, you know, samespelling, same spelling, and
(08:12):
from both a Sudanese father anda Saudi Arabian mother, who both
had also their kind of share ofthe international experiences.
And I am a former refugee aswell and I always like to put
those identities and those youknow, because that's that what
shapes a lot of uh, as you mayknow, as you know, your, your
experts and scholarpractitioners, if you will, in
(08:33):
in a, in a uh, you know, when wehear the, the global nomad or
the tck, when we hear thoseterms, uh, we imagine a military
brat or someone you know whatdo you call the missionary brat,
is that the term, or this ishow we see it.
We have yet seen, you know,seeing the immigrants as part of
(08:58):
this DCK or refugee, likemyself.
So I've always seen, you know,always been comfortable, and, as
you know, remember BarbaraShetty or other, you know, other
of these scholars,intercultural scholars I've
learned how to find not justcomfort, but also I strive,
(09:19):
being in a margin, that'spersonally, so not marginalized.
And this is again.
You go to social justicetheoretical framework.
Marginalized means you're notsupposed to be here In my.
I kind of reclaim thatnarrative.
No, I'm supposed to be watchinga movie with you.
I'm watching you in a movie andI enjoy it.
(09:41):
Sometimes I step in andsometimes I get to.
Identity has played a big rolein recognizing and I enjoy it.
Sometimes I step in andsometimes I get to.
So identity has played a bigrole in recognizing the level of
investment sometimes we havetowards a topic in the community
.
And, as a DEI director, what canwe do in my community?
(10:05):
170,000 population in theMidwest, you know the Ozark, you
know the Bible Belt, baco, allof these elements and in 2021,
they decided to have thatposition.
Now, what was the motive?
(10:25):
There are lots of motivesaround that time, but we're
seeing now more and more whattype of fuel do we need to use
to move forward and what is therelevance in my office or you
know, in my team, or you know inmy team, I have another staff
(10:46):
that we can continue thatmomentum, rather than waiting
for an event to happen so we canrespond to it.
Or let's call, you know, let'scall the DI guy, basically to
address or put out that fire.
So we're seeing now, we'retrying to find ways, and this is
where I appreciate thecombination of there has to be a
(11:09):
multidisciplinary frameworkthat would help us address the
situation, not a single, youknow, single disciplinary that
would address oppression, if youwill, or address the
disparities, or address, youknow, whatever definitions are
laying around us.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
You've brought up a good point there, taj.
We're going to steal this.
I think this idea of beingcomfortable in the margins but
not marginalized, that's prettypowerful for me, because if you
think about that, we're talkingabout today the, I guess the
perception of a term like dei,and especially when it isn't a
(11:49):
title and it's attached tosomeone with your rich
experience and comfortability towith being in the margins, you
know obviously where the peoplethat we see, that are maybe
pushing back on this, are peoplethat are most comfortable in,
you know, not in the margins,right, they're comfortable.
And this is what's a threat tothem.
(12:10):
The people like that do thiswork are threats to them because
we're and you mentioned thepower structures too right, it's
a threat to their powerstructure, it's a threat to
their existence, it's anexistential viewpoint from their
perspective.
So we can get that and well, Iguess in their work we want to
be cognizant of what that'sdoing to them mentally,
(12:33):
psychologically and things likethat.
But then to me, this tie, likeyou said there is the tie is
because we work with people thatare coming here with comfort
and security and they sometimessay I kind of operate in the
margins too, because I'm aleader, I'm comfortable doing
(12:53):
that.
I've led people from differentbackgrounds and no matter what
identity they are, they have tobreak into kind of being part of
the group, and it's a toughthing.
So I would argue everybody, youknow, yes, there are people
that come from differentbackground.
Your, your story is of survivaland tenacity and and and.
(13:13):
All of that is inspiring.
And other people go through ina different experience, like me.
I always tell people my, mybiggest problem in the, in my
growing up, was which beach togo to.
You know that was my upbringing, you know.
So that's different to otherpeople's experience.
So what we're trying to do.
Speaker 4 (13:34):
Please forgive me for interrupting, absolutely.
I don't know if technology cancatch that, but you know the
empathetic link that I couldhave with you and have with
Christian and the three of us.
Often, if I compare my war zone, lived experiences in Lebanon
(13:58):
versus which beach you want togo to, that is something that
often power can play a dynamic.
But also, do I disconnect fromyou because your issue was which
beach to find, or you broke afingernail.
So I guess this is a question,not we're trying to figure out
(14:21):
how to do it, but but how do weaddress power dynamic while
we're also recognizing the, the,the necessity of empathy and
and and relating on any level?
You know, you've heard the backin the day and during COVID,
where people was like, well,we're all in the same boat, it's
(14:41):
like yeah.
And then people was like, well,some are in coach and some are
know down in a, the boiler,whatever they call it, the, the,
the, you know the, the engineand the gunners, right, right,
right.
So so you know, I, I dorecognize that some have yet to
see the value of the powerdynamic.
(15:02):
Also, those who see the powerdynamic can isolate themselves,
you know, in an opportunity thatI wonder if it's worth
exploring.
You know, if I wanted to talkabout and I will be direct, more
direct because I come from anindirect culture, it's like
what's your point, taj?
(15:23):
Both of you are looking at me.
It me like, yeah, you know, getto the point the concept of
privilege and specifically, whenwe're talking about, you know,
white privilege.
I've always heard it, I'vestudied it, you know.
But is privilege, for instanceand this is hopefully not
(15:47):
controversy but is it consideredto be a curse?
Is it considered to be aleverage?
Is it considered to be ablessing?
Is it considered what are you?
know, what can we do?
Like someone like me working ina predominantly, you know,
white community, a white malecommunity, but then fluctuate in
socioeconomic you know whitecommunity, a white male
community but then fluctuate insocial economic you know social
(16:08):
economic.
And then you're a drug.
You're talking about dei forsomeone who is from a town
called here, blue eye.
I always like to use thatexample because I interact with
some of the folks there.
Um, basically, like, what areyou trying to tell me about
privilege?
To them, privilege is probablythe financial power, but to
(16:29):
maybe, someone like me is maybesystemic power.
So those, how are we, you know,are we using?
What type of translators andtransmitters are we using to
talk about?
How can we have a communitywhere we cherish those diversity
and I'm not talking about justthe same Kumbaya songs, but what
(16:51):
are the ways that we canleverage off of what I have of
power or of privilege oradvantage, towards a community
overall?
And that's something hopefully,you know it's addressed among
the three of us.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
So here's a thought, and just listening to what
you've been sharing up until now, I get the feeling that perhaps
the way we've approached thisconversation, specifically in
the United States and NorthAmerica and parts of Western
Europe as well, it is very oftenan agenda or agenda driven
(17:34):
conversation that is trying toupset the status quo in order to
be more inclusive or to bringabout more equity for everyone
in society, and in doing so wesometimes put a further wedge
(17:56):
into society rather than becomemore inclusive.
I mean, I'm going to be andforgive me now for being super
direct, because my culturalbackground behooves me to Call
the kettle black or, in thiscase, call the white man white.
Are we, by making claims of weneed to change the system, we
(18:22):
need to dismantle the system, weneed to end the white
supremacist patriarchy, whateverslogans might be attached to
the work of DEI and I would sayfalsely or erroneously so,
because that's, in my opinion,not the work that DEI does but
(18:43):
very often it's been put intothat basket of social justice
warriors who are kind ofrevolutionary in their approach
and very aggressive and perhaps,as a result, not very inclusive
in doing so.
So if we really think that bydismantling a system, whatever
(19:06):
it may be and however it mayprotect my white privilege.
If I claim to undo that systemin order to build something
better, who will be allowed torebuild it?
Who are we then including tocreate something better?
And are we willing to endurethat period of being without a
(19:29):
functioning system?
Are we willing to endure thechaos that we are going to
create by taking stuff apart toits individual parts?
Right, I know controversialquestions and I know that a lot
of DI practitioners will notsubscribe to that equivalency
(19:49):
here, but we've seen that a lot,especially in North America,
and especially as you, northAmerica, and especially as you
described earlier in areactionary sense.
You are in Missouri.
Your office probably was, maybein part, motivated to be put in
place after the George Floydincidents and the the St Louis
(20:12):
incidents of racial injusticeand protests against racial
injustice, right?
So how do we go about this in aconstructive way?
Or, as you said, how do we goabout it using whatever
privilege?
Some groups have to bring aboutmore equity and inclusion.
I know a big, big question howdo we create world peace?
(20:32):
But maybe we can solve thatquestion.
Right, some groups have tobring about more equity and
inclusion.
I know big question how do wecreate world peace, but maybe we
can solve that question.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
Right, right, and it's already happening.
I think this is kind of thehuman nature and social beings,
even though you know when peopleI lived in Portland, oregon, of
course I lived in Utah and alsoin Iowa and my friends in
Portland or the Northwest it'slike what are you doing in there
(21:01):
?
Are you safe?
And vice versa, folks here islike, oh, you live there.
I can only imagine how you liveamong folks there.
So the otherness plays a bigrole.
The otherness plays a big role.
(21:22):
Also, how we introduce theconversation, I think is the key
, because it's hard totroubleshoot when we are not
setting the tone of the, the,the I want to use the term
ground rules or a way folks cansee the relevance and the
(21:42):
importance and the buy-in in thework that we're doing.
Um, so you're talking aboutdismantling the system.
I think it's also becoming afantasy to dismantle something
or to break something or to useforce against the force.
(22:03):
So you know, I don't want to bealways the practical person,
but if you want to see what thatwould look like, I think it
would cost more to rebuild thanyou know, to recognize the
system and work towards I wantto use the word fixing it in
(22:29):
this case, whether policies orwhether practices, or whether
education among the staff, orwhether you know eventually
diversifying the workforce, orwhether you know having those
seeds, because I think itinvolves more than quantitative
and qualitative data, becauseyou're dealing with people,
(22:54):
you're dealing with people, sothat's something that I, you
know, I've always been mindful.
In my sessions, trainingsessions, if you will around, I
use embed, I inject emotionalintelligence, while, before
talking about diversity and theconcept of diversity, also the
concept of culture, what is?
You know what is culture?
And one I remember, onegentleman from you know public
(23:20):
works said well, you know, Ifeel ashamed, I don't have a
culture.
I'm from this town out in, youknow the woods, and I don't
think I do have a culture.
I said I beg the differ, sir.
You know so the concept.
Then you know in the woods andI don't think I do have a
culture.
I said I beg the differ, sir,you know so the concept.
Then you know, if you see itnationally, international kind
(23:40):
of definition around culture,sombrero, hats, whatever that is
.
You know you are only limitingthe key in the you know what do
you call it the unseen.
I've always been fascinated init, so probably are you by the
(24:01):
or have you by the definition ofculture?
What is culture?
What is the culture of anorganization?
What is the culture of thecommunity?
What are the multiple bubbleswithin that bubble?
And when you actually have thatrealization, will you feel
inconvenient?
If we have an inclusive culture, will you feel that something
(24:22):
is going to be taken away?
Then you're not understandingthe concept of culture.
So it is good for you.
So, yes, there is a promotion ofinclusion, but each of the
participants, bright andchristian, they feel that, uh,
they're uh part of the solutionrather than, um, you know you
(24:45):
have these identities and youwould never know what's like to
uh.
You know to feel safe if you'redriving, or you know, or for me
to assume that I don't knowwhat's like to be confused about
which jacket to wear or whichyou know which socks to wear.
(25:06):
So this is something I thinkempathy plays a big role in
recognizing.
While there is an issue, we seeit on a daily basis and
continue to see it, it's nevergoing to go overnight, and I
(25:26):
wanted to throw something outthere and please say you know,
try to justify what I said here.
But even within the civilrights work, which I was not
born in the 60s and 70s.
Even there are movements thatare still functioning from what
happened in the 60s, rather thanrecognizing also what could
(25:50):
happen and where we are rightnow, in a time that we are.
What are the tools that can benecessary from there, from the
civil rights era, to our timeright now, while complemented
with the current solutions?
(26:12):
Because demographically we'rechanging?
We have now, as you have mighthave worked already, you know,
and maybe a smaller town,smaller cities there is.
That it's not in census.
Even there is the identity thatpeople are hardly talking about
it, which is, I, related to TCK,but the biracial identity, what
(26:37):
you know.
You go and sit, you know, sitdown with a multi biracial
person and work with them andsay, well, where are you?
And I, you know it's not funalways to ask that question, but
where are you?
You know, are you white or areyou black?
Uh, and they they'll tell youif I go there, I don't find me
fully, and if I go here, samething.
(27:00):
So I created my own reality andthis is growing and growing.
We're seeing families arereaching out to community
foundations because they don'tknow how to deal with their own
grandkids on a social levelbecause of their identity and
who they are.
(27:21):
So is the question can wecomplement, as we are
comfortable with theintercultural theoretical
framework, complement both witheach other, to recognize that,
if you are going to addresspower dynamic, also address the,
(27:41):
the, the interaction with thesepower dynamic and with these
cross, uh, cultural identities?
Uh, in a way where people caninvest in it in a healthy way,
rather than in a, in a I want touse the word aggressive, maybe
I'm, you know, I've been toolong here in the Midwest but but
(28:02):
a way where it is constructiveor naturally it's already taken
place in the community, ratherthan we are setting the tone and
the definition and the label,as Americans in general like to
put everything with a label.
So this is where we are.
I think this is something thatI don't know if you agree with
(28:22):
me, but this is something thatwe're noticing.
The, you know, is one,disciplinary is going to be the
only solution, the only pillthat will cure us.
Or, what are the, what are thecourses and when do we use what?
In implementing change thateverybody, by, by its meaning,
(28:47):
everybody can feel that they'recontributing through what they
already have.
You know so, so, uh, we've seenit in movies, we've seen it,
and you know, if you want tobuild a house, the whole
community will come together andsome will have a nail, some
will have a you know hammer.
How, how does that work?
Speaker 3 (29:05):
and and that's something that I'm interested in
exploring here in my position-I was thinking what can we not
equate in intercultural, interinterculturality with
intersectionality?
Ah, is that?
I mean you?
(29:26):
You said about somebody sayingto you, I don't feel like I have
a culture, right.
So perhaps say, yeah, that'ssomething to recognize, and.
But then when you really diginto their identity, they it
doesn't matter what they looklike, who they pray to, who they
love, right, it can you canalways pick up some sense of
intersectionality where there isan identity at which some point
(29:48):
in their life they have feltexcluded and and and so that
gives them some empathy.
You know, that was that was kindof what I was thinking when you
were saying that and then.
So we started this out talkingabout what it is about a word,
what's a name.
So is it now, rather than pushback against, the pushback of,
(30:09):
against dei right?
Rather than see it as anegative, maybe embrace it and
say, actually, you're right.
This is how I kind of disarmpeople when they say that DEI is
woke and it's all.
Why not say to them you know,you're right, because what we've
done, we've put a fence aroundsomething and made it quite
exclusive, right, and so now canwe both come up with a term
(30:31):
that we're all comfortable with,that recognizes the humanity
and the identities andintersectionality and
interculturality of everybody.
Speaker 4 (30:43):
Christian, you were going to say something.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
I'm observing this because I come to this
conversation from way out leftfield right.
I grew up in a fairlymonocultural, predominantly
white society where, yes, I alsoenjoyed some level of privilege
, however not at the expense ofa lot of other people, because
(31:07):
the Society in which I grew upwas not as diverse as the
society in which I live today.
I find it interesting how wehere in the US, or in other
Western, so-called Westernsocieties we enjoy, seem to
(31:29):
enjoy change processes in abelligerent way, in a dualistic
winner-takes-all fight, insteadof trying to figure out, just
like you said earlier, I got thehammer, can you bring the nails
, and maybe we can find a thirdparty who brings the
two-by-fours and let's startbuilding something Right.
(31:52):
That is a different start tothe conversation than saying I'm
right, you're wrong.
No, the opposite is true, andwe seem to live in a world where
it's a lot more entertaining,there's a lot more clicks and a
lot more eyeballs going to thecage fight of I'm wrong and
(32:13):
you're right and whatever,that's a different show.
That's a different.
Well, it is a show instead of aconstructive conversation that
leads to a better outcome.
Speaker 4 (32:27):
What was Christian?
I wanted to forgive me forinterrupting.
There's something that a fewweeks ago, when I we briefly
talked, he said something aboutuh, I was somehow making an
observation about how debateclasses in the united states are
.
You know, I remember one time Iwas, you know, asked to be a
(32:49):
judge in one of thosecompetitions and someone came
and and like totally, this istotally, you know, unhealthy.
And he, you know this kidmanaged to actually convince me
that I should be drinkingwhatever the unhealthy, you know
, potion was through debate andof course, there's a counter to
(33:09):
that debate.
But there is something,christian, you did like, uh, you
know, I did like, and I, uh, isit the socratic approach?
Is that?
Is it and that's something thatI feel it's okay towards what
is it?
Is it what is right or who isright?
And often we struggle with withboth?
(33:30):
Is it about me?
Proven to you that I'm wrong,I'm right, or is it?
This situation can't afford goany further in our community or
our organization or our team.
That, for the sake of team,what can we do to resolve to
leverage off of these you, youknow, diverse talents that we
(33:54):
have, for instance, or to invite, you know, economically.
This is why it's good forbusiness, this is why it's good,
you know.
So I wonder if this is worth,you know, discussing, as we're
talking about what earlier Bretttalked about, the
intersectionality and intercultural culturality.
(34:17):
Um, you know often, uh, youknow, intersectionality, it
talks about the, the multipleidentities within our identity
and the sophistication of who weare, while the interculturality
helps with.
(34:38):
Okay, let's see thoseinteractions and also address
some of the dynamic.
Let's talk about some of thedynamic.
Both are valuable.
Both are valuable and that'ssomething I think took me, I
would say, more than 10 to 12years for me to recognize where
I am and seeing that there isneed.
(35:03):
There is a need for more thansocial justice and there is a
need for more the interculturalframework.
We are at a time right now,even there is a need for more of
the intercultural framework.
We are at a time right now, eventhough, in the advancement of
both social justice, theoreticalframework, especially when they
(35:23):
are, you know, within, on theground, grassroots activism,
versus the intercultural, youknow, communication framework, I
see it sometimes isolated orself-isolate, because you
(35:44):
realize you use sophisticatedterms and it becomes an elite
often in both, that it's hard tomarry them together.
And we've seen some scholars,as you know, like, for instance,
catherine Sorrell or othersthat they talk about, dr
Catherine Sorrell and others, drAhmed and others, they're
(36:06):
seeing it, they've addressedtheir cultural practice model.
They start you culturalpractice model, they start
seeing.
But I still felt, even when we,as interculturalists, we were
laughing earlier about theconcept.
But the interculturalists, thefoundational interculturalists,
(36:29):
while we're addressing inclusionthrough these lenses, I find
myself being excluded for beingpart of a mindset within the
intercultural theoreticalframework or social justice
theoretical framework.
I could be wrong, I don't know,maybe my intercultural
(36:52):
membership is going to be takenaway and the social justice is
like hey you know it's happenedto me before You're born with it
.
Nobody can take it away from you.
But is it?
Is it something?
Is it something?
And we've seen it inconferences and meetings and you
know we interacted that often Ihave to create a lane and I
think maybe it's an American ormaybe, you know, european thing.
(37:14):
You know I have a lane, I havea box, I, you know I have to
consumptionalize it, capture it,but you know it's not a cookie
cutter.
There's more into.
You know, when talking, you knowif it's a theory, if I have a
model that works well on paper,will I be able to, you know, can
(37:38):
I be open enough and humbleenough to see the value of some
of it in my work, instead ofsaying, well, copy and paste,
nope, it needs to.
You know you need to finishsession one and session two and
session three.
If the whole session, you knowthe one session, can meet it all
, then you know, by relationship, by leveraging the value, the
(38:02):
community value, the.
What do you value as acommunity, as a, as a team
member, as a department member?
And let's leverage off of thatfor us to actually say well, you
know, you may call it dei, butI call it I, I don't know.
Uh, you know cheese andcrackers.
I I don't, you know, I I don'tknow what it is, what will you
(38:24):
call it?
Speaker 1 (38:25):
you told me earlier that, or you told us both
earlier, before we hit therecord button, that your
department will go through well,have a new definition or a new
name.
At least I don't know if itwill change the definition of
your work, but the the title onyour business card will change.
So what will it be from futureon?
Speaker 4 (38:46):
yeah, so we're planning.
A couple weeks ago we presentedbefore the city, uh, city
council on the transition of thename and now we're going
through some legal legality andsome policy work here, from the
DEI, or diversity, equityinclusion, to actually office of
(39:06):
belonging and interculturaldevelopment.
This probably would be the onlyoffice that I've heard of
development.
This probably would be the onlyoffice that I've heard of.
You know, I've seen we're notlooking to be on a Guinness book
or you know, but also seeinghow DEI is deepened within the
(39:29):
concept of belonging and theintercultural development
component can address bothinterpersonal and cross-cultural
when we know the concept ofculture.
So, you know professionaldevelopment, you know you want
to use the interculturaltheoretical framework around
learning styles, communicationstyles, you know, while
(39:50):
recognizing the intersectionalidentities as well.
Right, but I'm now talking totwo.
You know, if we're walking onthe street and it's like, well,
these are two white men and youknow, uh, black men walking
together, wonder which, you know, which town in the united
states they're from andoriginally, or where they were
(40:11):
born, uh, until they get closerand start hearing accents like
whoa, okay, I'm confused.
Now you know, uh, so, so theidentity is becoming more and
more complex and it is forsomeone like at least me and you
may relate to feel uhsuffocated basically by like oh,
no, you're, you're a middleeastern Taj.
(40:33):
I've had friends.
It's like, well, no, you're,you're an Arab, or I, you know,
go to my African friends, uh,sudanese.
Like no, no, you're, you're oneof us.
Look at you, uh, so so you know, it is good to have the sense
of belonging, but it's youdecide the condition of how I
belong here and how I become.
(40:54):
That's empowerment.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
Very good.
I thought that perhaps I woulddraw a metaphor, because I'm
certainly not academic and Idon't use very complicated words
, that's why we bring smartpeople like you on.
I'll make up something in Arabic?
No, absolutely, but seriously,you brought up Socrates before.
I think this is interesting andagain, I'm not a studier of the
(41:19):
topic, but Socrates to methere's an example or a metaphor
for inclusion, and why it'simportant or belonging is that
you're bringing three differentconcepts.
Socrates came up with the idea,but he didn't write it down.
He just kind of came up withthe ideas and walked around the
streets and he upset a lot ofpeople by doing it.
(41:40):
And then Plato came along andsaid, well, hey, somebody's got
to capture this.
So that was his skill, right.
He wrote the platonic verses.
He brought ideas in that formand then, of course, aristotle
then went a step further andturned it into an encyclopedia
Britannica of facts, right?
(42:02):
So there's data, there'sconcepts, there's ideas, and
everybody is really uniquelyplaced to interpret and present
them, and that's just true oflife.
I think to me that was what Igot out of this.
You know, it was actually apodcast I was listening to, um,
the wonderful hidden brainpodcast.
Uh, I was wondering where hepulled that out from I know.
(42:24):
Yeah, actually I should have notsaid it because I would have
sounded a lot smarter than I am,but it is really.
It was profound for me is thatin such a really complicated,
thoughtful kind of space andacademic exploration of self and
all of that kind of thing thatSocrates Socrates you can
(42:50):
actually draw some very basicconnections to today's world and
how we might want to kind ofjust get people around us that
think differently, recorddifferently, communicate
differently, because other thanthat, you know we're just an
amoeba, you know we're just kindof one big blob and it doesn't
make for very interestingconversations.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
It doesn't make for very interesting conversations.
Yeah, and on that topic, I mean, let's stick with that historic
metaphor.
Most of us probably know whathappened to Mr Socrates.
His life ended prematurelybecause he was told to end it
himself by drinking from thepoisonous chalice.
(43:24):
So the messenger got killed.
So to say so, are we at thiscrossroads in the dei world that
those who bring the message areabout to be sidelined because
we are finding it's toodifficult to accept that our
(43:46):
societal structure is flawed?
Or do we recognize that, nomatter what period of history we
lived in, those societies whowere exclusive, who did not
create a sense of belongingwithin their communities, did
not succeed?
It was the societies that madepeople from different corners
(44:10):
come to a crossroads and feellike they belonged and built
something bigger.
Those were usually thesocieties, in the course of
human history, who prevailed fora much, much longer time.
Speaker 4 (44:21):
Now, christian, something I want to insert and
again, forgive me, I get excitedhearing some of the points you
shared.
I say that diversity is arecipe for disaster as much as
(44:42):
it is a recipe for success.
Much as it is a recipe forsuccess when you are not
recognizing diversity and theconcept of diversity and
leveraging whether business,organization, you know, private
organization or a team, if youwant them all to say, well, you
know, I don't care about who youare and what you're bringing in
(45:03):
, just do your darn job andleave Versus.
You know what I'm going tochallenge your team.
We have a situation, we have ascenario, we have an issue.
I'd like you, I'm going to giveyou a day, 10 minutes, half an
hour, a time to go and come backwith a solution for it or with
(45:25):
how you want to break it down tome.
And when we sit oh, this is agreat way.
I'm sure you know you have donesome activities with
organizations, but they see thevalue of you know I am able to
be more circular, or maybe youknow this is how I fix a
situation or a scenario.
(45:46):
That is where the successhappens.
So there is a leverage of whatyou're bringing in, not because
of you know, and I do admit thatI'm a handsome guy, but it's
not always.
You know, I know it's amoneymaker thing, but it is, is
it?
You know?
This is what I say here andwhen I say it is a disaster when
(46:07):
you leave it untouched, whenyou leave diverse perspective,
diverse identities untouchedjust for the sake of
tokenization and the quota Right.
But if you are recognizing morein depth of the team that you
have, with what you have, youknow I can't dismantle the team
(46:29):
because they're all white.
I can't dismantle the teambecause they are all women.
So what can I do with theintersectional identities that
they have, even within them, thecultural identity, the big
bubble, to recognize that?
Hey, you know I have rawmaterial here I need to leverage
(46:49):
off of.
So I don't know if, in whatcontext, christian, I don't know
if that's it.
I hope I didn't derail yourthought.
Please forgive me again, butyou know this is something that
I've always seen, that sure.
You know the percentage.
How many quote unquote minorityhave you hired versus?
You know what are the values ofhiring diverse representation
(47:12):
Right hearing you correctly?
Speaker 1 (47:14):
but what I hear you say is let's get away from this
simple thinking of this is thiswas wrong and we can do better
(47:39):
by undoing with which was wrongand completely start from
scratch.
You're saying let's find thethe beauty within the existing
system.
Find the beauty within theexisting system, find the
resources that are in it alreadyand have been untouched or
untapped as of yet, and findways to improve it from within,
rather than tearing it down andhoping to rebuild it better,
(48:03):
which chances are it might notbe better than it was before.
Am I hearing that correctly?
Speaker 4 (48:11):
Right.
Right, you know it's easy to ifyou're talking practically on
the ground, what that would looklike.
We pilot projects.
I like that concept.
I don't know if it might changemy mind in the future.
I like that concept.
I don't know if it might changemy mind in the future, but it's
been going for the last, youknow, five to seven years in my
(48:32):
career.
Specifically, I like the ideaof piloting.
I like the idea of if I see ateam, an organization sorry, a
department, a team division,that they're working, I like to
sit back and watch in the movieto uh to say, you know, you're
working on this project.
I wonder if this is the toolsthat you have intellectually,
(48:55):
professionally, if you have it,if you have it, go and do it and
let's watch it.
And let's see the other teamthey're working on something
similar and see and come backand say, okay is, does this
plant work well in yourdepartment and if it does, does
it work in the wholeorganization?
And maybe this is our ownidentity, maybe this is our own
(49:16):
culture.
So I've been lucky with thetrust of the most, I would say,
be frank, most of the departmentheads here within the city,
with trust and even with thename change, even with the, you
know the recognition of.
You know the DEI lens.
(49:37):
If you will within project,within grant, with their
certificates, within not justthe, don't do it.
And if you know, if you do thator you have to do that,
otherwise you'll be penalized bythe federal government right,
the compliance component.
There's no need to use thestick If you're interacting with
(49:58):
folks that will.
You know you strive, you knowyou strive for success.
You strive for.
These are the challenges thatyou have.
Dei lens can help or OBIT nowcan help with recognizing.
You know the.
What do you call the thoughtprocess?
(50:19):
Recognize the?
You know you can't just problemsolution.
They have to stop somewherewhere you recognize.
So you know you've already seensome of the scholars and
interact with some of thescholars that they talk about.
You know the George Renwick,for instance.
You know the late scholarGeorge.
I mean, if you sit down he isdefinitely he looks.
(50:42):
You know he's white.
But if you sit down and speakwith him and probably if you
learn, you know he's white.
But if you sit down and speakwith him and probably if you
learn, you know you heard himspeak Mandarin.
He's like whoa, okay, this is,and he's talking breaking down
the organizational structure insuch a creative way that you
know, when you're seeingintercultural theoretical
(51:06):
framework or even social justice, they're being put in the work,
not for the checkoff, they'reactually embodying the concepts
towards.
You know, I can go home rightnow and I don't have to struggle
or feel stuck or burn out atwork.
(51:27):
I process something internallyand I process something with
someone that we differ inperspective or in identities,
that at least I am at peace withit today and tomorrow and
address it instead of feelingdisconnected, instead of feeling
disconnected.
So that is, this is.
You know, we're now we'rerecruiting for intercultural
(51:52):
facilitators within the city whoare representative of different
, you know different departments.
They will go through emotionalintelligence, diversity,
inclusion, interculturalframework and, if it's okay for
me to give a shout out to theEIDI, the Intercultural
(52:17):
Intelligence and DiversityInstitute, through Anita Rowe
and Donna, of course, and others.
So we were trying to find a wayto.
You know, this is not what welike to use here, because I'm in
Springfield, the Serval Bullets, you know, because we talk
(52:39):
about our guns and hunting here.
But you know it's not the onlyway.
But there is a recognition thatwe are trying to find our own
identity within the city,despite the other DI theoretical
framework or the work that isalready taking place.
Like to add, we'd like to lookbeyond the you know just the
(53:10):
limited way of some folksprobably will see DEI.
We'd like to expand on it.
Speaker 3 (53:18):
Wonderful.
Well, Taj, yes, this is a greatconversation.
This is really rich, and I hopethose those are watching or
listening appreciate when we getthe chance to bring somebody
like you on to this program.
We just can't help learningfrom you, and you mentioned
(53:39):
George Renwick.
You know, George Renwick wasone of those people too.
You know, you just sat on thatin that gentleman's aura and you
couldn't help learn, and youare counted amongst those that
we look to to do the same kindof thing, Taz.
So may your, may your workcontinue, inshallah, with great
prosperity, and that you bringall these people and everybody
(54:01):
that is around you that's beeninspired by you and led by you
is going to see the fulfillmentof the ongoing practice.
It's great.
We love doing this work.
This is what drives us everyday right.
Talking about being in themargins, that's where the fun
happens.
We try and inspire people,right?
(54:22):
We?
Speaker 4 (54:22):
get to have popcorn while watching, so it's a great
honor to have you, sir, so thankyou very much you heard the man
.
Speaker 1 (54:32):
There is no silver bullet.
We got to do the work.
It is work that continues rightthere.
We we might be drawn to quickfixes or the promise of a
permanent turnaround of anysituation.
I'm at an age now where I'vecome to realize any change you
(54:53):
want is worth working on.
It means you got to keepplugging away at it.
So with that I am happy that wewere able to showcase a
practitioner in the field todayfrom the Midwest, in a place
where you may have not expectedthat to be at the center of
(55:14):
someone's work.
So whatever we call it in thefuture, whatever label we put on
it, whatever name we use forthe work, the work continues.
We serve humanity, we buildcommunity, and that works a lot
better if we do it together,right, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 4 (55:34):
If you want to go, uh , uh, fast, go alone.
If you want to go far, gotogether, and this is a model
that we've been using here.
So again, by the way, both ofyou, from my interaction with
you, you've given me enough.
You know too much credit, butI've learned so much from,
whether offline or you know, oreven just watching you from far.
(55:59):
So I do appreciate thatopportunity and hope, you know,
you'll engage more and more ofus.
Uh, just simply to ask thequestion what you know, how are
we?
How well are we doing it?
And and are there ways to do itin a sustainable, healthy, uh
way where you know I could goand not feel burnt out in the
(56:22):
field that I'm in and youprobably can understand, I could
go and play golf like folks youknow, and you know the chief of
police will probably.
I don't know if he likes golf,but I need to ask him.
You know I could be in part ofthe work instead of feeling that
I'm in a constant fight and itcould take the toll on our
(56:47):
health.
So I look forward to findingways that we could do it with
less tension and more joy.
Yeah, Beautiful.
Speaker 3 (57:02):
So, thank you, that's Two Chaps, many Cultures.
I actually believe this mightbe a two-part series.
This, uh, and we probably needto bring you back because this
is it's a great topic and, uh,anybody who wants to reach out
to taj, please, I'm you know,he's uh, he's an open book and a
great teacher and I'm sure hewould uh welcome um having a
(57:23):
having a chat, and we're heretoo.
We want welcome having a chat,and we're here too.
We want to have a chat too.
We want to hear from you, wewant to hear your feedback, we
want to hear your perspective,what your thoughts are on what
we talked about today.
Put them in the comments.
If you're watching on YouTube,we've got a whole comment
section there.
We've got emails.
We've got websites the CulturalMastery Go to the Cultural
Mastery, check that out.
(57:44):
Lots of resources there, andalso our YouTube channel and our
podcast.
So that's another one in thecan.
Thank you very much, taj.
Just again, deep honor forhaving you on and taking the
time to do this.
So very much appreciated.
This is Two Chaps, many Culture, where too much culture is
barely enough and too muchbelonging is never enough.
(58:08):
No, not at all.
Speaker 4 (58:10):
See you later, everybody Bye now.
When we talk about dealing with people from
different backgrounds andcultures, very often the topic
of diversity comes into theconversation.
Diversity, equity, inclusion,dei a term specifically in North
America that has gone throughthe sociopolitical ringer.
(00:20):
It is charged up with differentmeanings, it is opposed against
, it is fought for.
Is it really necessary?
Can we talk about inclusivebehaviors without the political
charge?
We have a guest today that willhelp us unpack some of that.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Welcome to 2Chap's Many Cultures.
In an increasingly globallyconnected world, it is vital to
possess the essential skills ofcultural intelligence.
Listen along as we present thetopics, tips and strategies you
can use to develop the power ofcultural understanding in your
personal and professional life.
(01:03):
Here are your hosts ChristianHuffala and Brett Parry.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Welcome back to Two Chaps.
Many Cultures.
That is the name of this show.
I'm Brett, he's Christian andwe have names and, as we always
learn, when we put a name tosomething, should it always
stick?
Well, obviously, if you're bornwith a name and you're given a
name, that's what people get toknow you as.
What about larger topics,larger things that we are
(01:31):
interacting with on a day-to-daybasis?
Do we actually name them withsome intentionality?
And what happens if peopleidentify that name with
something that may be negativeor something that causes
problems in a societal sense?
So we're going to talk aboutthat today.
Before we do and we introduceour wonderful guest, as
Christian says, we're going toask you to hit the subscribe
(01:54):
button, ring that bell onYouTube if you want to be
notified of all of the newepisodes that come out every
week here.
And also don't forget ourpodcast now, which is live
across all kinds of platformsApple, Spotify, amazon Music,
now on iHeartRadio.
By the way, we're on the radio,imagine that, which is good for
(02:17):
us, because radio is.
We've got good faces for radio.
Let's get into the topic fortoday.
We're going to talk aboutwhat's in a name, what is in a
description, what is a name of aconcept or a practice,
especially in terms of theprofessional sense.
And we've got our wonderfulguest here, mr Taj Suleiman.
(02:37):
Welcome to the Two Chaps ManyCultures studio and again, just
deep gratitude for you joiningus today, sir.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Thank you for having me and I appreciate it.
It's nice to be added now.
I don't know if you should callit three chaps just for today,
but I appreciate.
I've always appreciate yourauthentic conversations of how
you guys have previously, so I'mhonored that I'm invited.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Most certainly.
Wassalamu alaikum, taj, thanksfor being here.
Tell us a little bit whatbrings you to this conversation
about diversity, equity,inclusion.
Why do you think we brought youhere?
To make us three chaps for thisepisode?
Tell us a little bit about yourbackground, yeah yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Well, it's hard to ask why if you haven't hit an
agenda.
So you know I'll have to nowcheck with you.
I'll have to ask you why am Ihere?
I'm being interviewed.
You asked me why you're here,but you know what I've actually,
through my very brief peeks onyou know your interaction I
(03:57):
really appreciated it.
Like I said, it's authentic,it's simple, it's also in a way
where anyone can relate to thisconversation, the wondering, the
curiosity that I've always, youknow I've always grown up, you
know, I've always been raised byby just asking the question.
So I appreciate those questionsthat are not attached to any,
(04:21):
any agendas, if you will.
So so that's something I wantedto put out there too.
Also, as we have seen, you arealready part of what we have in
common, the three of us theintercultural field and also
somewhat the DEI slash, theinternational experiences we're
seeing more and more nationallyin the United States, the
(04:43):
conversations, even prior to thebuzzword around DEI, as you may
know, in our interculturalsettings the conversations have
always been, you know, is iteither, or Is it a combination
of social justice theoreticalframework or intercultural
(05:06):
theoretical framework?
If we are addressing achallenge, a social challenge or
social issues, which tool do weuse and which one is more
leaning towards?
And part will address the powerdynamic while you're putting
labels on, maybe, individuals,situations, systems.
(05:26):
It's now becoming more and morehard to use a term that it's
going to have multiple doors,basically, to define it.
If I wanted to define race, orif I wanted to define racism, or
if I wanted to definedisparities, these are all
(05:48):
charged with lots of emotions,lots of notions that often can
set you in an interesting, Iwould say, tone, even when
you're trying to, whethereducate or facilitate or address
.
It's becoming everything hasbasically several labels that
(06:12):
often can either hinder or cansound like oh, finally, I heard
that word, I need to engage withthis anymore because it has,
you know, the divisive or.
Oh, here we go again.
(06:33):
So, what are the ways?
I guess we're trying to findways.
You know how?
What is next?
Basically, are we comfortablewith utilizing terms?
Are we comfortable with drivingtowards positive change in
where we are, without beingmindful of the audiences or
(06:55):
without being mindful of theregional, cultural, you know,
around regions where we are inthis country?
So I don't know if you have yettalked about it, but I really
would like you know through yourexpertise or your you know,
your inquiries with me,interaction with me.
I'd like to explore that withyou and hopefully, whoever is
going you know is going to watchus or is watching us I'd like
(07:19):
to also get their input.
It's worth having thisconversation.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
What brings you to this field of DEI?
Your job title currently isyou're the DEI officer for the
city of Springfield, Missouri,correct?
Speaker 4 (07:32):
Correct, director?
Yes, director.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
So you're not a native of Springfield, Missouri,
though, are you?
Speaker 4 (07:39):
No, no, I'm not a native, I wasn't born.
If that's what you mean, I wasnot born.
And you mean I was not born,and you know, I was born and
raised in Lebanon, the country,and I have to make it clear
because there is about an houraway from here, a small city
called Lebanon, lebanon.
Lebanon, same, you know, samespelling, same spelling, and
(08:12):
from both a Sudanese father anda Saudi Arabian mother, who both
had also their kind of share ofthe international experiences.
And I am a former refugee aswell and I always like to put
those identities and those youknow, because that's that what
shapes a lot of uh, as you mayknow, as you know, your, your
experts and scholarpractitioners, if you will, in
(08:33):
in a, in a uh, you know, when wehear the, the global nomad or
the tck, when we hear thoseterms, uh, we imagine a military
brat or someone you know whatdo you call the missionary brat,
is that the term, or this ishow we see it.
We have yet seen, you know,seeing the immigrants as part of
(08:58):
this DCK or refugee, likemyself.
So I've always seen, you know,always been comfortable, and, as
you know, remember BarbaraShetty or other, you know, other
of these scholars,intercultural scholars I've
learned how to find not justcomfort, but also I strive,
(09:19):
being in a margin, that'spersonally, so not marginalized.
And this is again.
You go to social justicetheoretical framework.
Marginalized means you're notsupposed to be here In my.
I kind of reclaim thatnarrative.
No, I'm supposed to be watchinga movie with you.
I'm watching you in a movie andI enjoy it.
(09:41):
Sometimes I step in andsometimes I get to.
Identity has played a big rolein recognizing and I enjoy it.
Sometimes I step in andsometimes I get to.
So identity has played a bigrole in recognizing the level of
investment sometimes we havetowards a topic in the community
.
And, as a DEI director, what canwe do in my community?
(10:05):
170,000 population in theMidwest, you know the Ozark, you
know the Bible Belt, baco, allof these elements and in 2021,
they decided to have thatposition.
Now, what was the motive?
(10:25):
There are lots of motivesaround that time, but we're
seeing now more and more whattype of fuel do we need to use
to move forward and what is therelevance in my office or you
know, in my team, or you know inmy team, I have another staff
(10:46):
that we can continue thatmomentum, rather than waiting
for an event to happen so we canrespond to it.
Or let's call, you know, let'scall the DI guy, basically to
address or put out that fire.
So we're seeing now, we'retrying to find ways, and this is
where I appreciate thecombination of there has to be a
(11:09):
multidisciplinary frameworkthat would help us address the
situation, not a single, youknow, single disciplinary that
would address oppression, if youwill, or address the
disparities, or address, youknow, whatever definitions are
laying around us.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
You've brought up a good point there, taj.
We're going to steal this.
I think this idea of beingcomfortable in the margins but
not marginalized, that's prettypowerful for me, because if you
think about that, we're talkingabout today the, I guess the
perception of a term like dei,and especially when it isn't a
(11:49):
title and it's attached tosomeone with your rich
experience and comfortability towith being in the margins, you
know obviously where the peoplethat we see, that are maybe
pushing back on this, are peoplethat are most comfortable in,
you know, not in the margins,right, they're comfortable.
And this is what's a threat tothem.
(12:10):
The people like that do thiswork are threats to them because
we're and you mentioned thepower structures too right, it's
a threat to their powerstructure, it's a threat to
their existence, it's anexistential viewpoint from their
perspective.
So we can get that and well, Iguess in their work we want to
be cognizant of what that'sdoing to them mentally,
(12:33):
psychologically and things likethat.
But then to me, this tie, likeyou said there is the tie is
because we work with people thatare coming here with comfort
and security and they sometimessay I kind of operate in the
margins too, because I'm aleader, I'm comfortable doing
(12:53):
that.
I've led people from differentbackgrounds and no matter what
identity they are, they have tobreak into kind of being part of
the group, and it's a toughthing.
So I would argue everybody, youknow, yes, there are people
that come from differentbackground.
Your, your story is of survivaland tenacity and and and.
(13:13):
All of that is inspiring.
And other people go through ina different experience, like me.
I always tell people my, mybiggest problem in the, in my
growing up, was which beach togo to.
You know that was my upbringing, you know.
So that's different to otherpeople's experience.
So what we're trying to do.
Speaker 4 (13:34):
Please forgive me for interrupting, absolutely.
I don't know if technology cancatch that, but you know the
empathetic link that I couldhave with you and have with
Christian and the three of us.
Often, if I compare my war zone, lived experiences in Lebanon
(13:58):
versus which beach you want togo to, that is something that
often power can play a dynamic.
But also, do I disconnect fromyou because your issue was which
beach to find, or you broke afingernail.
So I guess this is a question,not we're trying to figure out
(14:21):
how to do it, but but how do weaddress power dynamic while
we're also recognizing the, the,the necessity of empathy and
and and relating on any level?
You know, you've heard the backin the day and during COVID,
where people was like, well,we're all in the same boat, it's
(14:41):
like yeah.
And then people was like, well,some are in coach and some are
know down in a, the boiler,whatever they call it, the, the,
the, you know the, the engineand the gunners, right, right,
right.
So so you know, I, I dorecognize that some have yet to
see the value of the powerdynamic.
(15:02):
Also, those who see the powerdynamic can isolate themselves,
you know, in an opportunity thatI wonder if it's worth
exploring.
You know, if I wanted to talkabout and I will be direct, more
direct because I come from anindirect culture, it's like
what's your point, taj?
(15:23):
Both of you are looking at me.
It me like, yeah, you know, getto the point the concept of
privilege and specifically, whenwe're talking about, you know,
white privilege.
I've always heard it, I'vestudied it, you know.
But is privilege, for instanceand this is hopefully not
(15:47):
controversy but is it consideredto be a curse?
Is it considered to be aleverage?
Is it considered to be ablessing?
Is it considered what are you?
know, what can we do?
Like someone like me working ina predominantly, you know,
white community, a white malecommunity, but then fluctuate in
socioeconomic you know whitecommunity, a white male
community but then fluctuate insocial economic you know social
(16:08):
economic.
And then you're a drug.
You're talking about dei forsomeone who is from a town
called here, blue eye.
I always like to use thatexample because I interact with
some of the folks there.
Um, basically, like, what areyou trying to tell me about
privilege?
To them, privilege is probablythe financial power, but to
(16:29):
maybe, someone like me is maybesystemic power.
So those, how are we, you know,are we using?
What type of translators andtransmitters are we using to
talk about?
How can we have a communitywhere we cherish those diversity
and I'm not talking about justthe same Kumbaya songs, but what
(16:51):
are the ways that we canleverage off of what I have of
power or of privilege oradvantage, towards a community
overall?
And that's something hopefully,you know it's addressed among
the three of us.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
So here's a thought, and just listening to what
you've been sharing up until now, I get the feeling that perhaps
the way we've approached thisconversation, specifically in
the United States and NorthAmerica and parts of Western
Europe as well, it is very oftenan agenda or agenda driven
(17:34):
conversation that is trying toupset the status quo in order to
be more inclusive or to bringabout more equity for everyone
in society, and in doing so wesometimes put a further wedge
(17:56):
into society rather than becomemore inclusive.
I mean, I'm going to be andforgive me now for being super
direct, because my culturalbackground behooves me to Call
the kettle black or, in thiscase, call the white man white.
Are we, by making claims of weneed to change the system, we
(18:22):
need to dismantle the system, weneed to end the white
supremacist patriarchy, whateverslogans might be attached to
the work of DEI and I would sayfalsely or erroneously so,
because that's, in my opinion,not the work that DEI does but
(18:43):
very often it's been put intothat basket of social justice
warriors who are kind ofrevolutionary in their approach
and very aggressive and perhaps,as a result, not very inclusive
in doing so.
So if we really think that bydismantling a system, whatever
(19:06):
it may be and however it mayprotect my white privilege.
If I claim to undo that systemin order to build something
better, who will be allowed torebuild it?
Who are we then including tocreate something better?
And are we willing to endurethat period of being without a
(19:29):
functioning system?
Are we willing to endure thechaos that we are going to
create by taking stuff apart toits individual parts?
Right, I know controversialquestions and I know that a lot
of DI practitioners will notsubscribe to that equivalency
(19:49):
here, but we've seen that a lot,especially in North America,
and especially as you, northAmerica, and especially as you
described earlier in areactionary sense.
You are in Missouri.
Your office probably was, maybein part, motivated to be put in
place after the George Floydincidents and the the St Louis
(20:12):
incidents of racial injusticeand protests against racial
injustice, right?
So how do we go about this in aconstructive way?
Or, as you said, how do we goabout it using whatever
privilege?
Some groups have to bring aboutmore equity and inclusion.
I know a big, big question howdo we create world peace?
(20:32):
But maybe we can solve thatquestion.
Right, some groups have tobring about more equity and
inclusion.
I know big question how do wecreate world peace, but maybe we
can solve that question.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
Right, right, and it's already happening.
I think this is kind of thehuman nature and social beings,
even though you know when peopleI lived in Portland, oregon, of
course I lived in Utah and alsoin Iowa and my friends in
Portland or the Northwest it'slike what are you doing in there
(21:01):
?
Are you safe?
And vice versa, folks here islike, oh, you live there.
I can only imagine how you liveamong folks there.
So the otherness plays a bigrole.
The otherness plays a big role.
(21:22):
Also, how we introduce theconversation, I think is the key
, because it's hard totroubleshoot when we are not
setting the tone of the, the,the I want to use the term
ground rules or a way folks cansee the relevance and the
(21:42):
importance and the buy-in in thework that we're doing.
Um, so you're talking aboutdismantling the system.
I think it's also becoming afantasy to dismantle something
or to break something or to useforce against the force.
(22:03):
So you know, I don't want to bealways the practical person,
but if you want to see what thatwould look like, I think it
would cost more to rebuild thanyou know, to recognize the
system and work towards I wantto use the word fixing it in
(22:29):
this case, whether policies orwhether practices, or whether
education among the staff, orwhether you know eventually
diversifying the workforce, orwhether you know having those
seeds, because I think itinvolves more than quantitative
and qualitative data, becauseyou're dealing with people,
(22:54):
you're dealing with people, sothat's something that I, you
know, I've always been mindful.
In my sessions, trainingsessions, if you will around, I
use embed, I inject emotionalintelligence, while, before
talking about diversity and theconcept of diversity, also the
concept of culture, what is?
You know what is culture?
And one I remember, onegentleman from you know public
(23:20):
works said well, you know, Ifeel ashamed, I don't have a
culture.
I'm from this town out in, youknow the woods, and I don't
think I do have a culture.
I said I beg the differ, sir.
You know so the concept.
Then you know in the woods andI don't think I do have a
culture.
I said I beg the differ, sir,you know so the concept.
Then you know, if you see itnationally, international kind
(23:40):
of definition around culture,sombrero, hats, whatever that is
.
You know you are only limitingthe key in the you know what do
you call it the unseen.
I've always been fascinated init, so probably are you by the
(24:01):
or have you by the definition ofculture?
What is culture?
What is the culture of anorganization?
What is the culture of thecommunity?
What are the multiple bubbleswithin that bubble?
And when you actually have thatrealization, will you feel
inconvenient?
If we have an inclusive culture, will you feel that something
(24:22):
is going to be taken away?
Then you're not understandingthe concept of culture.
So it is good for you.
So, yes, there is a promotion ofinclusion, but each of the
participants, bright andchristian, they feel that, uh,
they're uh part of the solutionrather than, um, you know you
(24:45):
have these identities and youwould never know what's like to
uh.
You know to feel safe if you'redriving, or you know, or for me
to assume that I don't knowwhat's like to be confused about
which jacket to wear or whichyou know which socks to wear.
(25:06):
So this is something I thinkempathy plays a big role in
recognizing.
While there is an issue, we seeit on a daily basis and
continue to see it, it's nevergoing to go overnight, and I
(25:26):
wanted to throw something outthere and please say you know,
try to justify what I said here.
But even within the civilrights work, which I was not
born in the 60s and 70s.
Even there are movements thatare still functioning from what
happened in the 60s, rather thanrecognizing also what could
(25:50):
happen and where we are rightnow, in a time that we are.
What are the tools that can benecessary from there, from the
civil rights era, to our timeright now, while complemented
with the current solutions?
(26:12):
Because demographically we'rechanging?
We have now, as you have mighthave worked already, you know,
and maybe a smaller town,smaller cities there is.
That it's not in census.
Even there is the identity thatpeople are hardly talking about
it, which is, I, related to TCK,but the biracial identity, what
(26:37):
you know.
You go and sit, you know, sitdown with a multi biracial
person and work with them andsay, well, where are you?
And I, you know it's not funalways to ask that question, but
where are you?
You know, are you white or areyou black?
Uh, and they they'll tell youif I go there, I don't find me
fully, and if I go here, samething.
(27:00):
So I created my own reality andthis is growing and growing.
We're seeing families arereaching out to community
foundations because they don'tknow how to deal with their own
grandkids on a social levelbecause of their identity and
who they are.
(27:21):
So is the question can wecomplement, as we are
comfortable with theintercultural theoretical
framework, complement both witheach other, to recognize that,
if you are going to addresspower dynamic, also address the,
(27:41):
the, the interaction with thesepower dynamic and with these
cross, uh, cultural identities?
Uh, in a way where people caninvest in it in a healthy way,
rather than in a, in a I want touse the word aggressive, maybe
I'm, you know, I've been toolong here in the Midwest but but
(28:02):
a way where it is constructiveor naturally it's already taken
place in the community, ratherthan we are setting the tone and
the definition and the label,as Americans in general like to
put everything with a label.
So this is where we are.
I think this is something thatI don't know if you agree with
(28:22):
me, but this is something thatwe're noticing.
The, you know, is one,disciplinary is going to be the
only solution, the only pillthat will cure us.
Or, what are the, what are thecourses and when do we use what?
In implementing change thateverybody, by, by its meaning,
(28:47):
everybody can feel that they'recontributing through what they
already have.
You know so, so, uh, we've seenit in movies, we've seen it,
and you know, if you want tobuild a house, the whole
community will come together andsome will have a nail, some
will have a you know hammer.
How, how does that work?
Speaker 3 (29:05):
and and that's something that I'm interested in
exploring here in my position-I was thinking what can we not
equate in intercultural, interinterculturality with
intersectionality?
Ah, is that?
I mean you?
(29:26):
You said about somebody sayingto you, I don't feel like I have
a culture, right.
So perhaps say, yeah, that'ssomething to recognize, and.
But then when you really diginto their identity, they it
doesn't matter what they looklike, who they pray to, who they
love, right, it can you canalways pick up some sense of
intersectionality where there isan identity at which some point
(29:48):
in their life they have feltexcluded and and and so that
gives them some empathy.
You know, that was that was kindof what I was thinking when you
were saying that and then.
So we started this out talkingabout what it is about a word,
what's a name.
So is it now, rather than pushback against, the pushback of,
(30:09):
against dei right?
Rather than see it as anegative, maybe embrace it and
say, actually, you're right.
This is how I kind of disarmpeople when they say that DEI is
woke and it's all.
Why not say to them you know,you're right, because what we've
done, we've put a fence aroundsomething and made it quite
exclusive, right, and so now canwe both come up with a term
(30:31):
that we're all comfortable with,that recognizes the humanity
and the identities andintersectionality and
interculturality of everybody.
Speaker 4 (30:43):
Christian, you were going to say something.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
I'm observing this because I come to this
conversation from way out leftfield right.
I grew up in a fairlymonocultural, predominantly
white society where, yes, I alsoenjoyed some level of privilege
, however not at the expense ofa lot of other people, because
(31:07):
the Society in which I grew upwas not as diverse as the
society in which I live today.
I find it interesting how wehere in the US, or in other
Western, so-called Westernsocieties we enjoy, seem to
(31:29):
enjoy change processes in abelligerent way, in a dualistic
winner-takes-all fight, insteadof trying to figure out, just
like you said earlier, I got thehammer, can you bring the nails
, and maybe we can find a thirdparty who brings the
two-by-fours and let's startbuilding something Right.
(31:52):
That is a different start tothe conversation than saying I'm
right, you're wrong.
No, the opposite is true, andwe seem to live in a world where
it's a lot more entertaining,there's a lot more clicks and a
lot more eyeballs going to thecage fight of I'm wrong and
(32:13):
you're right and whatever,that's a different show.
That's a different.
Well, it is a show instead of aconstructive conversation that
leads to a better outcome.
Speaker 4 (32:27):
What was Christian?
I wanted to forgive me forinterrupting.
There's something that a fewweeks ago, when I we briefly
talked, he said something aboutuh, I was somehow making an
observation about how debateclasses in the united states are
.
You know, I remember one time Iwas, you know, asked to be a
(32:49):
judge in one of thosecompetitions and someone came
and and like totally, this istotally, you know, unhealthy.
And he, you know this kidmanaged to actually convince me
that I should be drinkingwhatever the unhealthy, you know
, potion was through debate andof course, there's a counter to
(33:09):
that debate.
But there is something,christian, you did like, uh, you
know, I did like, and I, uh, isit the socratic approach?
Is that?
Is it and that's something thatI feel it's okay towards what
is it?
Is it what is right or who isright?
And often we struggle with withboth?
(33:30):
Is it about me?
Proven to you that I'm wrong,I'm right, or is it?
This situation can't afford goany further in our community or
our organization or our team.
That, for the sake of team,what can we do to resolve to
leverage off of these you, youknow, diverse talents that we
(33:54):
have, for instance, or to invite, you know, economically.
This is why it's good forbusiness, this is why it's good,
you know.
So I wonder if this is worth,you know, discussing, as we're
talking about what earlier Bretttalked about, the
intersectionality and intercultural culturality.
(34:17):
Um, you know often, uh, youknow, intersectionality, it
talks about the, the multipleidentities within our identity
and the sophistication of who weare, while the interculturality
helps with.
(34:38):
Okay, let's see thoseinteractions and also address
some of the dynamic.
Let's talk about some of thedynamic.
Both are valuable.
Both are valuable and that'ssomething I think took me, I
would say, more than 10 to 12years for me to recognize where
I am and seeing that there isneed.
(35:03):
There is a need for more thansocial justice and there is a
need for more the interculturalframework.
We are at a time right now,even there is a need for more of
the intercultural framework.
We are at a time right now, eventhough, in the advancement of
both social justice, theoreticalframework, especially when they
(35:23):
are, you know, within, on theground, grassroots activism,
versus the intercultural, youknow, communication framework, I
see it sometimes isolated orself-isolate, because you
(35:44):
realize you use sophisticatedterms and it becomes an elite
often in both, that it's hard tomarry them together.
And we've seen some scholars,as you know, like, for instance,
catherine Sorrell or othersthat they talk about, dr
Catherine Sorrell and others, drAhmed and others, they're
(36:06):
seeing it, they've addressedtheir cultural practice model.
They start you culturalpractice model, they start
seeing.
But I still felt, even when we,as interculturalists, we were
laughing earlier about theconcept.
But the interculturalists, thefoundational interculturalists,
(36:29):
while we're addressing inclusionthrough these lenses, I find
myself being excluded for beingpart of a mindset within the
intercultural theoreticalframework or social justice
theoretical framework.
I could be wrong, I don't know,maybe my intercultural
(36:52):
membership is going to be takenaway and the social justice is
like hey you know it's happenedto me before You're born with it
.
Nobody can take it away from you.
But is it?
Is it something?
Is it something?
And we've seen it inconferences and meetings and you
know we interacted that often Ihave to create a lane and I
think maybe it's an American ormaybe, you know, european thing.
(37:14):
You know I have a lane, I havea box, I, you know I have to
consumptionalize it, capture it,but you know it's not a cookie
cutter.
There's more into.
You know, when talking, you knowif it's a theory, if I have a
model that works well on paper,will I be able to, you know, can
(37:38):
I be open enough and humbleenough to see the value of some
of it in my work, instead ofsaying, well, copy and paste,
nope, it needs to.
You know you need to finishsession one and session two and
session three.
If the whole session, you knowthe one session, can meet it all
, then you know, by relationship, by leveraging the value, the
(38:02):
community value, the.
What do you value as acommunity, as a, as a team
member, as a department member?
And let's leverage off of thatfor us to actually say well, you
know, you may call it dei, butI call it I, I don't know.
Uh, you know cheese andcrackers.
I I don't, you know, I I don'tknow what it is, what will you
(38:24):
call it?
Speaker 1 (38:25):
you told me earlier that, or you told us both
earlier, before we hit therecord button, that your
department will go through well,have a new definition or a new
name.
At least I don't know if itwill change the definition of
your work, but the the title onyour business card will change.
So what will it be from futureon?
Speaker 4 (38:46):
yeah, so we're planning.
A couple weeks ago we presentedbefore the city, uh, city
council on the transition of thename and now we're going
through some legal legality andsome policy work here, from the
DEI, or diversity, equityinclusion, to actually office of
(39:06):
belonging and interculturaldevelopment.
This probably would be the onlyoffice that I've heard of
development.
This probably would be the onlyoffice that I've heard of.
You know, I've seen we're notlooking to be on a Guinness book
or you know, but also seeinghow DEI is deepened within the
(39:29):
concept of belonging and theintercultural development
component can address bothinterpersonal and cross-cultural
when we know the concept ofculture.
So, you know professionaldevelopment, you know you want
to use the interculturaltheoretical framework around
learning styles, communicationstyles, you know, while
(39:50):
recognizing the intersectionalidentities as well.
Right, but I'm now talking totwo.
You know, if we're walking onthe street and it's like, well,
these are two white men and youknow, uh, black men walking
together, wonder which, you know, which town in the united
states they're from andoriginally, or where they were
(40:11):
born, uh, until they get closerand start hearing accents like
whoa, okay, I'm confused.
Now you know, uh, so, so theidentity is becoming more and
more complex and it is forsomeone like at least me and you
may relate to feel uhsuffocated basically by like oh,
no, you're, you're a middleeastern Taj.
(40:33):
I've had friends.
It's like, well, no, you're,you're an Arab, or I, you know,
go to my African friends, uh,sudanese.
Like no, no, you're, you're oneof us.
Look at you, uh, so so you know, it is good to have the sense
of belonging, but it's youdecide the condition of how I
belong here and how I become.
(40:54):
That's empowerment.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
Very good.
I thought that perhaps I woulddraw a metaphor, because I'm
certainly not academic and Idon't use very complicated words
, that's why we bring smartpeople like you on.
I'll make up something in Arabic?
No, absolutely, but seriously,you brought up Socrates before.
I think this is interesting andagain, I'm not a studier of the
(41:19):
topic, but Socrates to methere's an example or a metaphor
for inclusion, and why it'simportant or belonging is that
you're bringing three differentconcepts.
Socrates came up with the idea,but he didn't write it down.
He just kind of came up withthe ideas and walked around the
streets and he upset a lot ofpeople by doing it.
(41:40):
And then Plato came along andsaid, well, hey, somebody's got
to capture this.
So that was his skill, right.
He wrote the platonic verses.
He brought ideas in that formand then, of course, aristotle
then went a step further andturned it into an encyclopedia
Britannica of facts, right?
(42:02):
So there's data, there'sconcepts, there's ideas, and
everybody is really uniquelyplaced to interpret and present
them, and that's just true oflife.
I think to me that was what Igot out of this.
You know, it was actually apodcast I was listening to, um,
the wonderful hidden brainpodcast.
Uh, I was wondering where hepulled that out from I know.
(42:24):
Yeah, actually I should have notsaid it because I would have
sounded a lot smarter than I am,but it is really.
It was profound for me is thatin such a really complicated,
thoughtful kind of space andacademic exploration of self and
all of that kind of thing thatSocrates Socrates you can
(42:50):
actually draw some very basicconnections to today's world and
how we might want to kind ofjust get people around us that
think differently, recorddifferently, communicate
differently, because other thanthat, you know we're just an
amoeba, you know we're just kindof one big blob and it doesn't
make for very interestingconversations.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
It doesn't make for very interesting conversations.
Yeah, and on that topic, I mean, let's stick with that historic
metaphor.
Most of us probably know whathappened to Mr Socrates.
His life ended prematurelybecause he was told to end it
himself by drinking from thepoisonous chalice.
(43:24):
So the messenger got killed.
So to say so, are we at thiscrossroads in the dei world that
those who bring the message areabout to be sidelined because
we are finding it's toodifficult to accept that our
(43:46):
societal structure is flawed?
Or do we recognize that, nomatter what period of history we
lived in, those societies whowere exclusive, who did not
create a sense of belongingwithin their communities, did
not succeed?
It was the societies that madepeople from different corners
(44:10):
come to a crossroads and feellike they belonged and built
something bigger.
Those were usually thesocieties, in the course of
human history, who prevailed fora much, much longer time.
Speaker 4 (44:21):
Now, christian, something I want to insert and
again, forgive me, I get excitedhearing some of the points you
shared.
I say that diversity is arecipe for disaster as much as
(44:42):
it is a recipe for success.
Much as it is a recipe forsuccess when you are not
recognizing diversity and theconcept of diversity and
leveraging whether business,organization, you know, private
organization or a team, if youwant them all to say, well, you
know, I don't care about who youare and what you're bringing in
(45:03):
, just do your darn job andleave Versus.
You know what I'm going tochallenge your team.
We have a situation, we have ascenario, we have an issue.
I'd like you, I'm going to giveyou a day, 10 minutes, half an
hour, a time to go and come backwith a solution for it or with
(45:25):
how you want to break it down tome.
And when we sit oh, this is agreat way.
I'm sure you know you have donesome activities with
organizations, but they see thevalue of you know I am able to
be more circular, or maybe youknow this is how I fix a
situation or a scenario.
(45:46):
That is where the successhappens.
So there is a leverage of whatyou're bringing in, not because
of you know, and I do admit thatI'm a handsome guy, but it's
not always.
You know, I know it's amoneymaker thing, but it is, is
it?
You know?
This is what I say here andwhen I say it is a disaster when
(46:07):
you leave it untouched, whenyou leave diverse perspective,
diverse identities untouchedjust for the sake of
tokenization and the quota Right.
But if you are recognizing morein depth of the team that you
have, with what you have, youknow I can't dismantle the team
(46:29):
because they're all white.
I can't dismantle the teambecause they are all women.
So what can I do with theintersectional identities that
they have, even within them, thecultural identity, the big
bubble, to recognize that?
Hey, you know I have rawmaterial here I need to leverage
(46:49):
off of.
So I don't know if, in whatcontext, christian, I don't know
if that's it.
I hope I didn't derail yourthought.
Please forgive me again, butyou know this is something that
I've always seen, that sure.
You know the percentage.
How many quote unquote minorityhave you hired versus?
You know what are the values ofhiring diverse representation
(47:12):
Right hearing you correctly?
Speaker 1 (47:14):
but what I hear you say is let's get away from this
simple thinking of this is thiswas wrong and we can do better
(47:39):
by undoing with which was wrongand completely start from
scratch.
You're saying let's find thethe beauty within the existing
system.
Find the beauty within theexisting system, find the
resources that are in it alreadyand have been untouched or
untapped as of yet, and findways to improve it from within,
rather than tearing it down andhoping to rebuild it better,
(48:03):
which chances are it might notbe better than it was before.
Am I hearing that correctly?
Speaker 4 (48:11):
Right.
Right, you know it's easy to ifyou're talking practically on
the ground, what that would looklike.
We pilot projects.
I like that concept.
I don't know if it might changemy mind in the future.
I like that concept.
I don't know if it might changemy mind in the future, but it's
been going for the last, youknow, five to seven years in my
(48:32):
career.
Specifically, I like the ideaof piloting.
I like the idea of if I see ateam, an organization sorry, a
department, a team division,that they're working, I like to
sit back and watch in the movieto uh to say, you know, you're
working on this project.
I wonder if this is the toolsthat you have intellectually,
(48:55):
professionally, if you have it,if you have it, go and do it and
let's watch it.
And let's see the other teamthey're working on something
similar and see and come backand say, okay is, does this
plant work well in yourdepartment and if it does, does
it work in the wholeorganization?
And maybe this is our ownidentity, maybe this is our own
(49:16):
culture.
So I've been lucky with thetrust of the most, I would say,
be frank, most of the departmentheads here within the city,
with trust and even with thename change, even with the, you
know the recognition of.
You know the DEI lens.
(49:37):
If you will within project,within grant, with their
certificates, within not justthe, don't do it.
And if you know, if you do thator you have to do that,
otherwise you'll be penalized bythe federal government right,
the compliance component.
There's no need to use thestick If you're interacting with
(49:58):
folks that will.
You know you strive, you knowyou strive for success.
You strive for.
These are the challenges thatyou have.
Dei lens can help or OBIT nowcan help with recognizing.
You know the.
What do you call the thoughtprocess?
(50:19):
Recognize the?
You know you can't just problemsolution.
They have to stop somewherewhere you recognize.
So you know you've already seensome of the scholars and
interact with some of thescholars that they talk about.
You know the George Renwick,for instance.
You know the late scholarGeorge.
I mean, if you sit down he isdefinitely he looks.
(50:42):
You know he's white.
But if you sit down and speakwith him and probably if you
learn, you know he's white.
But if you sit down and speakwith him and probably if you
learn, you know you heard himspeak Mandarin.
He's like whoa, okay, this is,and he's talking breaking down
the organizational structure insuch a creative way that you
know, when you're seeingintercultural theoretical
(51:06):
framework or even social justice, they're being put in the work,
not for the checkoff, they'reactually embodying the concepts
towards.
You know, I can go home rightnow and I don't have to struggle
or feel stuck or burn out atwork.
(51:27):
I process something internallyand I process something with
someone that we differ inperspective or in identities,
that at least I am at peace withit today and tomorrow and
address it instead of feelingdisconnected, instead of feeling
disconnected.
So that is, this is.
You know, we're now we'rerecruiting for intercultural
(51:52):
facilitators within the city whoare representative of different
, you know different departments.
They will go through emotionalintelligence, diversity,
inclusion, interculturalframework and, if it's okay for
me to give a shout out to theEIDI, the Intercultural
(52:17):
Intelligence and DiversityInstitute, through Anita Rowe
and Donna, of course, and others.
So we were trying to find a wayto.
You know, this is not what welike to use here, because I'm in
Springfield, the Serval Bullets, you know, because we talk
(52:39):
about our guns and hunting here.
But you know it's not the onlyway.
But there is a recognition thatwe are trying to find our own
identity within the city,despite the other DI theoretical
framework or the work that isalready taking place.
Like to add, we'd like to lookbeyond the you know just the
(53:10):
limited way of some folksprobably will see DEI.
We'd like to expand on it.
Speaker 3 (53:18):
Wonderful.
Well, Taj, yes, this is a greatconversation.
This is really rich, and I hopethose those are watching or
listening appreciate when we getthe chance to bring somebody
like you on to this program.
We just can't help learningfrom you, and you mentioned
(53:39):
George Renwick.
You know, George Renwick wasone of those people too.
You know, you just sat on thatin that gentleman's aura and you
couldn't help learn, and youare counted amongst those that
we look to to do the same kindof thing, Taz.
So may your, may your workcontinue, inshallah, with great
prosperity, and that you bringall these people and everybody
(54:01):
that is around you that's beeninspired by you and led by you
is going to see the fulfillmentof the ongoing practice.
It's great.
We love doing this work.
This is what drives us everyday right.
Talking about being in themargins, that's where the fun
happens.
We try and inspire people,right?
(54:22):
We?
Speaker 4 (54:22):
get to have popcorn while watching, so it's a great
honor to have you, sir, so thankyou very much you heard the man
.
Speaker 1 (54:32):
There is no silver bullet.
We got to do the work.
It is work that continues rightthere.
We we might be drawn to quickfixes or the promise of a
permanent turnaround of anysituation.
I'm at an age now where I'vecome to realize any change you
(54:53):
want is worth working on.
It means you got to keepplugging away at it.
So with that I am happy that wewere able to showcase a
practitioner in the field todayfrom the Midwest, in a place
where you may have not expectedthat to be at the center of
(55:14):
someone's work.
So whatever we call it in thefuture, whatever label we put on
it, whatever name we use forthe work, the work continues.
We serve humanity, we buildcommunity, and that works a lot
better if we do it together,right, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 4 (55:34):
If you want to go, uh , uh, fast, go alone.
If you want to go far, gotogether, and this is a model
that we've been using here.
So again, by the way, both ofyou, from my interaction with
you, you've given me enough.
You know too much credit, butI've learned so much from,
whether offline or you know, oreven just watching you from far.
(55:59):
So I do appreciate thatopportunity and hope, you know,
you'll engage more and more ofus.
Uh, just simply to ask thequestion what you know, how are
we?
How well are we doing it?
And and are there ways to do itin a sustainable, healthy, uh
way where you know I could goand not feel burnt out in the
(56:22):
field that I'm in and youprobably can understand, I could
go and play golf like folks youknow, and you know the chief of
police will probably.
I don't know if he likes golf,but I need to ask him.
You know I could be in part ofthe work instead of feeling that
I'm in a constant fight and itcould take the toll on our
(56:47):
health.
So I look forward to findingways that we could do it with
less tension and more joy.
Yeah, Beautiful.
Speaker 3 (57:02):
So, thank you, that's Two Chaps, many Cultures.
I actually believe this mightbe a two-part series.
This, uh, and we probably needto bring you back because this
is it's a great topic and, uh,anybody who wants to reach out
to taj, please, I'm you know,he's uh, he's an open book and a
great teacher and I'm sure hewould uh welcome um having a
(57:23):
having a chat, and we're heretoo.
We want welcome having a chat,and we're here too.
We want to have a chat too.
We want to hear from you, wewant to hear your feedback, we
want to hear your perspective,what your thoughts are on what
we talked about today.
Put them in the comments.
If you're watching on YouTube,we've got a whole comment
section there.
We've got emails.
We've got websites the CulturalMastery Go to the Cultural
Mastery, check that out.
(57:44):
Lots of resources there, andalso our YouTube channel and our
podcast.
So that's another one in thecan.
Thank you very much, taj.
Just again, deep honor forhaving you on and taking the
time to do this.
So very much appreciated.
This is Two Chaps, many Culture, where too much culture is
barely enough and too muchbelonging is never enough.
(58:08):
No, not at all.
Speaker 4 (58:10):
See you later, everybody Bye now.
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