May 20, 2024 โข 25 mins
Embark on a cultural voyage with us as we peel away the veneer of stereotypes to reveal the rich mosaic of Italian heritage and its profound global influence. Say goodbye to the worn-out image of Italians as merely expressive gesture-users or the aggressive, uneducated characters you see in films. We're promising you a fresh perspective, uncovering how Italian migrants have woven their traditions into the fabric of societies from Australia to the United States, leaving a legacy of mouthwatering cuisine and robust coffee cultures. Our conversation takes you beyond the simplistic view of Italy as a uniform culture, celebrating the diverse regional histories and languages that have thrived long before the nation's unification.
As we navigate the streets of Munich, where Italian architectural prowess stands tall, and sip on what's arguably Germany's finest coffee, we're not just talking about influence; we're experiencing it. Our discussion also scrutinizes the delicate interplay between honoring heritage and perpetuating stereotypes, with a nod to the influential narratives of Scorsese and Coppola. We dissect the complexities of Italian communication, from its nuanced verbal indirectness to its rich tapestry of non-verbal expression. Moreover, we voyage into the bilingual region of South Tyrol, shining a light on the fluidity of cultural assimilation. Join us for this enlightening journey that celebrates the multifaceted Italian culture and its timeless impact on the world stage.
๐๐ฌ๐ค ๐พ๐๐๐ฅ๐จ โ ๐๐๐ฃ๐ฎ ๐พ๐ช๐ก๐ฉ๐ช๐ง๐๐จ is the worldโs #1 show on the business of culture and the culture of business. Christian Hรถferle and Brett Parry ponder culture in short bursts and deep dives, featuring your questions and comments related to culture, business, and personal growth.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What the fuck are you doing?
Get out of here.
Yeah, you heard me, right?
I'm cussing in Italian, or atleast I pretend to, and we talk
a lot with our hands, aren't we?
Yeah, because that's astereotype, right?
That's what you know about themItalians.
Yeah, and all of you Italianstalk like that, right?
Uh-huh, well, maybe not, andmaybe not all of them do that,
(00:27):
and maybe not all of them soundas aggressively uneducated as I
just did.
So, careful with thosestereotypes about people.
And today we're going to lookat those from La Bella Italia.
Yeah, sure, we use the handssouth of the Alps, but do we
really know how to?
(00:47):
And do we?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
really know what all of that means.
Let's check it out.
Welcome to 2Chaps.
Many Cultures.
In an increasingly globallyconnected world, it is vital to
possess the essential skills ofcultural intelligence.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Listen along as we present the topics, tips and
strategies you can use todevelop the power of cultural
understanding in your personaland professional life.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Here are your hosts Christian Huffala and Brett
Parry.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Ciao amici, bentornato a two chaps.
Many cultures, due ragazzi, etutti le culture, I guess.
Ah, my Italian sucks.
Welcome back, everybody, andsee my name even changed.
I'm Cristiano.
What did I do?
Am I becoming Italian?
(01:35):
I don't know.
No, and should we continuedoing this and making a
caricature of people'scommunication styles?
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (01:46):
about that, brett, I don't know.
You know I'm certainly.
I don't know if there is anequivalent for Brett in Italian
Bretto.
I don't know.
I don't even know what that is,but you know, first of all, I
had a question.
Actually, it came to mind whenyou were doing that.
Why do we call it stereotype?
Actually came to mind when youwere doing that.
(02:08):
Why do we call it stereotype ifit is a one single minded
caricature of a certain group ofpeople?
Why wouldn't we call it monotype?
Speaker 1 (02:14):
that's something I hear, but we should have
explored that before we wentlive.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
We should have explored that.
So anybody who's listening outthere, please, as we always say,
subscribe, hit that bell, andof course, you don't have to do
that to do this, but you can letus know.
Why do we call it stereotyping?
But let's not go too far downthat rabbit hole.
Let's talk about.
What we're doing today, andthat's exactly what we've
(02:42):
started off with is throwing outthere a few of the stereotypes
that we have about a particularculture, in this case Italy.
It's a very popular culture inthe world and everybody has
their idea of what an Italianmight sound like or look like
and what food they eat.
All of those kind of thingsexist in a lot of the world
(03:03):
because Italians have foundtheir way in a lot of the world,
even my home country ofAustralia.
Back all the way back in the1600s, they tagged along with
the Dutch and went there andmapped with the missionaries in
Indonesia.
They mapped the northern partsof Australia, and that came from
(03:25):
an Italian.
He sent it back to the Vaticantrying to get them to come on,
let's go down.
This is a great place, it'ssunny, and forget about the
snakes and the spiders and allthat.
They'll get over that.
But then, you know, fast forwardinto, you know, the 1800s, when
(03:46):
we had the gold rush, we had alot of Italians coming for the
gold chasing riches in Australia.
And of course then later on,when we had in Australia the
populate or perish policy, wherewe were literally paying people
to come to Australia, people tocome to Australia, the poor
people and it really was usuallythe peasant farming community
(04:07):
were offered a chance to getpassage at a very highly
subsidized rate.
They made their way toAustralia and they found their
ways into places like the canefarming in the north and things
like that.
And of course, back then justlike there is in all of these
waves of immigration that camethrough my country, as an
example in Australia prejudiceand stereotyping and this was
(04:32):
this perception of Italians andthey were coming to steal our
jobs and they were coming tobring their you know, maybe some
of their networks and theirreputation around, how strong
the family was, and the familyhas connotations again with
certain stereotypes of Italy.
This is a very well-knownstereotype that existed in
(04:53):
Australia.
And, of course, fast forwardwhen I grew up around a lot of
Italians and the food theybought, their wonderful food,
and of course, what else do wethink?
Of Italians, the coffee, so thecoffee.
Of Italians, the coffee, so thecoffee, the coffee.
And of course you know that'ssomething that's unique in
(05:13):
Australia.
When people go there they thinkyou know why would Australians
have such a coffee culture?
Came from the wonderfulItalians, so stereotyping.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Wherever the Italians went, they left a mark and very
often to, I would argue, toimprove.
Wherever they went, theybrought something that didn't
exist there and I think andwe're doing this show, this
program from the comfort of ourUS, american homes Italians left
(05:45):
a huge mark on the Americas aswell.
In fact, the Americas arecalled America because of an
Italian.
There is some arguments to bemade about the positive
influences largely positiveinfluences that Italian culture
(06:05):
has brought across the globe.
And I just corrected myselfItalian cultures culture, well,
is there more than one?
Perhaps there is, and mostItalians will tell you that
they're not a homogeneousculture, even though we might
think of Italy as this monolithof pizza and pasta and very
(06:26):
expressive, non-verbalcommunication.
And yet, if you look at Italianhistory and how the country is
made, up until the Risorgimentoin the 19th century, italy was
split up like a big quilt, likea mosaic consisting of so many
different puzzle pieces.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Like a pizza.
Perhaps like a pizza.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
And the languages spoken across the Italian
peninsula isn't always the same.
You go down to Sicily, you goto Sardinia, you go to Milan, or
you go to Napoli, or you go toI don't know, go to Bari, and
people will speak differentforms of Italian.
Some would even argue it's adifferent language.
(07:09):
So here's where I go back evenfurther in history across this
in recent months, this questionof how much time do men,
particularly men, spend thinkingabout the Roman Empire?
Well, you should be thinkingabout the Roman Empire to
(07:32):
understand this, Because some2,000, so-and-so years ago,
italians or the Romans conqueredmuch of the Mediterranean world
and beyond, in Europe, inNorthern Africa, and ventured
even up into what is now theNordics or what is now Eastern
(07:54):
Europe and the Middle East.
And those areas had differentlanguages, different cultures
and they needed to communicatefast.
There were people from theempire going to the heart of the
empire, because all roads leadwhere, of course, they lead to
Rome, the heart of the empire.
And if you don't speak thelanguage, if you didn't speak
(08:16):
Latin, the precursor of Italian,then you needed your whole body
to communicate the message.
So there is a scientificargument to be made about why is
Italian language so expressive,emotionally and physically
expressive, because people needto communicate across linguistic
(08:38):
obstacles.
We use our hands and feet andthe rest of our body to relay
the message.
You messaged, I guess, and youbrought up the Australian
connection with Italy.
I come from a country calledGermany.
We're just across the Alps onthe northern side of what is
today Italy.
(08:58):
Our connection when I say our,the German-Italian connection,
even though it brought aboutsome horrific things in the 20th
century.
But our connection when I sayour, the German-Italian
connection, even though itbrought about some horrific
things in the 20th century.
But our connection has beenjust as old as the Roman Empire.
The German culture, some wouldargue, exists only because of
the Roman Empire, because wewere immediate neighbors and we
(09:22):
learned from each other and wefought each other and we loved
each other.
And just like there is lots ofimmigration that came to
Australia from Italy, there waslots of immigration going into
Germany, especially after WorldWar II.
I come from a city, or near acity, called Munich, which the
Italians call Monaco di Baviera,the cittร italiano piรน norte,
(09:45):
the northernmost Italian city.
If you've ever been to Munich,you will recognize the Italian
influence in that city, both informs of architecture, in forms
of cuisine, and Italians willconfirm I don't have to say this
, even though I'm doing it now,but Italians will tell you much
more convincingly than I thatthe best coffee in Germany
(10:07):
you'll get in Bavaria.
It's because of the Italianinfluence.
There seems to be a thread herewith coffee and pasta and pizza.
And then you find lots ofItalian immigration that went to
the Americas and Hollywoodmovies Scorsese and what's the
(10:31):
other guy, coppola.
They made movies thatperpetuated some of those
stereotypes, of thosestereotypes, sometimes in favor
of italian culture, sometimesmore like libel you would.
You could argue, right it,italian culture suffered from
(10:52):
being stereotyped, probably morethan many other cultures around
the world, and that's why webegan this episode with all the
ital Italians do this and talklike this.
All of them, really, have youbeen to Italy?
They don't.
Just as any other stereotypewill only hold up this much
(11:13):
until you really get closer toit and find out about the
reality, the real life.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Well, of course, before the advent of internet
and global news and 24-hour newscycles and things like that,
those populations that came andsettled these countries
essentially were disconnectedfrom their home country.
So there's we've seen that,I've seen this with Greek
clients where they'll say youknow, I've come to America and I
(11:43):
see Greek communities here andthey do things and practice
traditions and they and it'salmost like this is not what we
do now in Greece.
This is different, but it'skind of.
It's historically been carriedon by the immigrant population
here and that can be some sourceof that stereotype too, whereas
(12:05):
the country moves on, evolves,and the people chain, the
culture is dynamic and it's nota monolith and and but, but the
new people that have come hereand historically settled want to
carry on those traditions, thatconnection.
So they may actually and youknow, with in their own, by
their own interests and by theirown actions, promulgate some of
(12:27):
those stereotypes.
So that's, you know, and youtold me that an interesting
connection between Bavaria andItaly.
It's an interesting connectionthere, and that's just one
example of that.
So let's think about, you know,when we do work with people,
we're obviously applying some ofour tools that we use, like
Globesmart, and we think aboutthe profiles of a country, and
(12:50):
this of course imbues theconnection between communication
styles, like we talked about,the more expressive hand
gestures, the more high context,use of context in an Italian
language like Italian, and thenthe attitude to work and the
(13:10):
attitude to all that.
So where do we find that mate?
Where do we see here Italyfalling in that?
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Well, I think it's easily misconstrued as the
impression that one might think.
Because of their emotional andphysical expressiveness,
Italians have a very directstyle of communication and if
you look at the data, if youlook at the available
information we have in culturalcomparison frameworks like
Globesmart, Italy ranks welldead center, more leaning on
(13:39):
indirect communication style.
So the language itself, thewords and the tonality used is
not very direct compared to,let's say, German-Dutch-English
communication style orAmerican-English communication
styles.
And yet the directness that weperceive is probably transported
(14:00):
in the non-verbals right.
Probably transported in thenon-verbals right If there is
direction given, or emotion orthreats, or disagreement or
disinterest shown throughnon-verbals.
That could easily give us theimpression that the
communication style is quitedirect.
The words are not so much, thebody language is, and I've heard
(14:24):
it said by Italians that, well,some things are not to be said.
That implies not to be saidverbally out loud, and yet we do
say it with the nonverbalsright.
So the body language in Italianculture and Italian
communication style does whatthe actual verbal communication
(14:47):
doesn't do.
The directness that is not aspronounced in the verbal
communication in Italianlanguage is added to it by the
nonverbal, which can beconfusing if you go there for
the first time and you come froma culture where you show
emotional restraint and you findthat irritating.
(15:08):
I found that quite fascinating.
I still do, and those of youwho know me and who've traveled
with me know that my happy place, or one of my happy places in
the world, is a part of northernItaly that's called Attua Adige
, which has only been Italianfor about 100 years.
Before that it was part of theAustro-Hungarian Habsburg Empire
(15:31):
and after World War I thewinning parties ruled that this
portion of land should be givento Italy and it became part of
the Italian state, and Italiangovernment since started to
italicize it.
So it's a bilingual area up inthe mountains in northern Italy
(15:54):
and it's fascinating.
Even those parts of thepopulation that speak German
first, they all also speakItalian.
It's a completely bilingualarea, but even the German native
speakers in that area are usingItalian body language.
Even when they communicate tome in German, they will look
(16:21):
Italian in the way theycommunicate.
Case in point that proximitycreates relatability and then we
assimilate and we absorb eachother's communication and
behavioral patterns.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Yeah, and you know, and of course you've told me
about that wonderful area and ofcourse that is the connection
with food too, right, thegastronomic expression that
comes from a mix of cultureslike that, and you know we think
about this.
Maybe Italians is like a bit ofan Epicurean culture, so they
love the creative arts, and thecreative arts makes its way into
(16:57):
fashion, makes its way into the, the food makes its way into
the cars that they produce theFerrari and the Maserati, uh,
these kind of the lunches andthe Fiat's come on.
I'm not diminishing them at allabsolutely.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
And even the little, even the little Vespa, the Vespa
too.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Too right, the vespa, but still vespas.
You know they are a beautifulmachine.
They may not be exactly fast,but they're efficient and
they're, but they are abeautiful machine and people
collect them and spend.
You know, and it's arepresentation if you see a
picture, this is how strong thisis for us as humans.
You see a picture of a vespaand you immediately go to italy,
you immediately kind of putthat connection.
(17:41):
This is how strong these kindof things are.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
But uh, yeah, I know that you love a character who
unfortunately is no longer withus, but uh, that described his
idea of what he discovered initaly right, I would call him
the patron saint of theculturalists, or my spirit, not
animal, my spirit being, I guess, anthony bourdain, the late
(18:05):
anthony bourdain, who and I'mquoting from his book he talked
about italy and specificallyabout rome, and he wrote to me
it's not the big things theytell you about the sculptures,
the imposing squares andbuildings, the monuments, though
they are amazing.
(18:25):
It's the little things, the tinydetails, the improbable
awesomeness of every little damnthing.
Yep, and I agree with you, tonyBourdain, because once you get
to know Italy at that level, Iagree with you, tony Bourdain,
because once you get to knowItaly at that level and this is
what Brett and I've been talkingabout on this program since we
started culture isn't a monolith.
(18:48):
It's in the nuances, it's inthe fine-grained details where
you find the awesomeness inevery little damn thing.
The awesomeness in every littledamn thing, and you will
realize that how people usetheir body to communicate
transports emotion, positive andnegative.
(19:10):
It is a form of expression thatcan be so beautiful if we learn
how to read it and listen to itwith our whole being, and then
it becomes more than astereotype, it becomes
understanding between people,and that's what we're both here
(19:30):
for aren't we?
Speaker 2 (19:32):
uh, we certainly are, and okay, so let's.
Is that like a pizza, where youjust throw a bunch of
ingredients and the mix?
Oh, you started it.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Oh, you said a bunch of ingredients.
Oh, you mean like all thekitchen things, stuff, that's
right, I can't believe it.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
I know, see, and that's what we think of in my
country.
Like, if you think of pizza,some cultures think, yeah,
you're just trying a bunch offood on a piece of kind of
bread-like substance.
And yes, you do that toItalians and of course they will
go bananas because you knowpizza is an art.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
No bananas.
On the pizza, no bananas.
And while we're at it, nopineapple.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Okay, we're going to have a problem here.
We have a problem.
I'm a pineapple pizza guy.
I'm Australian.
I'm a pineapple on hamburgerguy too, so maybe it's just
something to do with you.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
I'm not opposed to pineapple at all.
I think I've talked to Italianswho would agree with you.
Right, I think it's not thattriptish.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
No.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Maybe four ingredients tops.
You need some red sauce, youneed some mozzarella, you need
maybe some prosciutto, someolives, maybe some, maybe I
don't know.
Anchovies, yeah, maybePineapple.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
I'll give you that one.
There is no way in the world Iwould order pineapple on a pizza
in Italy for the fear of beingexcommunicated and extracted.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Maybe there is such a thing.
Tell us, write it in thecomments, show us which pizza
place you've been to in Italythat serves pizza with pineapple
.
I'm sure there is.
I will be surprised if there isOkay.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Well, you know, maybe tourist areas, but this is it.
I think that was very profound.
I think that is something wecan almost end on, because just
what Christian said, right, thisis the beauty, and drawing on
Anthony Bourdain's attitudewherever he went in the world,
attitude wherever he went in theworld, there is so much magic
to be found in not only thephysical intricacies of a
(21:44):
culture, but also just thespiritual and the linguistic and
the relationship side of thingsin a country especially as
complicated and with such a longhistory, in a place like Italy.
These things, you know, I'vebeen to Italy, you can see them
(22:08):
everywhere.
You know, and if you're attuned, like I think, christian and I
are just from sheer annoyingpeople.
We can be a little bit annoyingto people because we might just
kind of ask random strangersTalk about yourself, mate, don't
involve me in this.
Hey, listen, I know what you'relike too, don't worry, I've been
with you, I've traveled in manyparts of the world with you.
I know you'll like it too.
It's just, it's curiosity.
(22:30):
It's curiosity to look yourselfin the mirror and go, yes, I
like pineapple pizza and I lovethat, but I wouldn't do it here
in Italy because look at the,just the.
It's like the complication inthe simplicity.
There's one I'm going to throwat you.
Look at that, look at that.
It is the beauty of thecomplication in the simplicity
(22:51):
of a pizza that just has two orthree ingredients, with a nice,
you know, a nice cleansing beer,something like that.
Yes, exactly, yes, exactly, yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Beer Alfredo, yeah, I give you the pineapple pizza if
you give me the never evercoffee with milk after breakfast
.
Absolutely Okay.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
I'll give you that I don't eat coffee with milk
anyway, so you know.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
You know, for breakfast a cappuccino latte.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yeah, sure.
So you know, you know, forbreakfast a cappuccino latte,
sure for breakfast, milkcappuccino for lunch or dinner
or any time after breakfast.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
You can have all your pineapple piece if you want.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah, so you know, stereotypes actually can be
valuable in getting a little bitof that protocol knowledge
before you go to Italy.
And do not get yelled at bysomebody behind the coffee
counter when you're asking for acappuccino at three o'clock in
the afternoon.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Sometimes people will yell at you.
They will just roll their eyesand turn around and cuss you out
in the town, Probably with bodylanguage that you don't
understand.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
that would be.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Perfect.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Well, have we covered it all body language that you
don't understand.
That would be fine.
Yeah, it would Perfect.
That's great.
Well, we covered it all.
We covered all the stereotypes.
I mean we could sit here allday and blow up stereotypes, you
know.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Many of them.
I think we should stop here,Otherwise our Italian friends
will send somebody for us.
You're done now, yeah that's itWell.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
That's it well, that's it.
Two chaps.
Many cultures, many cultures,many variations of cultures
around the world where too muchculture is barely enough.
Don't forget to hit thesubscribe button and please, as
we always invite you to do, tellus what you think.
What have you discovered?
What magical things have youdiscovered in Italy, if you've
been there, if you've travelledthere?
(24:38):
We'd love to know, becauseprobably we'd love to go there
and explore those for ourselves.
That would be fantastic.
We would highly appreciate it.
So that's it.
Another episode in the can foranother week.
Come back next week.
We'll be back again.
Same bat channel, same bat time.
Well, it is bat time.
It's like Tuesday, everyTuesday or so and we wish you a
(25:01):
very good week and any finalthoughts.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
May it end Arrivederci, arrivederci.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
See you, guys.
Thank you.
What the fuck are you doing?
Get out of here.
Yeah, you heard me, right?
I'm cussing in Italian, or atleast I pretend to, and we talk
a lot with our hands, aren't we?
Yeah, because that's astereotype, right?
That's what you know about themItalians.
Yeah, and all of you Italianstalk like that, right?
Uh-huh, well, maybe not, andmaybe not all of them do that,
(00:27):
and maybe not all of them soundas aggressively uneducated as I
just did.
So, careful with thosestereotypes about people.
And today we're going to lookat those from La Bella Italia.
Yeah, sure, we use the handssouth of the Alps, but do we
really know how to?
(00:47):
And do we?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
really know what all of that means.
Let's check it out.
Welcome to 2Chaps.
Many Cultures.
In an increasingly globallyconnected world, it is vital to
possess the essential skills ofcultural intelligence.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Listen along as we present the topics, tips and
strategies you can use todevelop the power of cultural
understanding in your personaland professional life.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Here are your hosts Christian Huffala and Brett
Parry.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Ciao amici, bentornato a two chaps.
Many cultures, due ragazzi, etutti le culture, I guess.
Ah, my Italian sucks.
Welcome back, everybody, andsee my name even changed.
I'm Cristiano.
What did I do?
Am I becoming Italian?
(01:35):
I don't know.
No, and should we continuedoing this and making a
caricature of people'scommunication styles?
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (01:46):
about that, brett, I don't know.
You know I'm certainly.
I don't know if there is anequivalent for Brett in Italian
Bretto.
I don't know.
I don't even know what that is,but you know, first of all, I
had a question.
Actually, it came to mind whenyou were doing that.
Why do we call it stereotype?
Actually came to mind when youwere doing that.
(02:08):
Why do we call it stereotype ifit is a one single minded
caricature of a certain group ofpeople?
Why wouldn't we call it monotype?
Speaker 1 (02:14):
that's something I hear, but we should have
explored that before we wentlive.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
We should have explored that.
So anybody who's listening outthere, please, as we always say,
subscribe, hit that bell, andof course, you don't have to do
that to do this, but you can letus know.
Why do we call it stereotyping?
But let's not go too far downthat rabbit hole.
Let's talk about.
What we're doing today, andthat's exactly what we've
(02:42):
started off with is throwing outthere a few of the stereotypes
that we have about a particularculture, in this case Italy.
It's a very popular culture inthe world and everybody has
their idea of what an Italianmight sound like or look like
and what food they eat.
All of those kind of thingsexist in a lot of the world
(03:03):
because Italians have foundtheir way in a lot of the world,
even my home country ofAustralia.
Back all the way back in the1600s, they tagged along with
the Dutch and went there andmapped with the missionaries in
Indonesia.
They mapped the northern partsof Australia, and that came from
(03:25):
an Italian.
He sent it back to the Vaticantrying to get them to come on,
let's go down.
This is a great place, it'ssunny, and forget about the
snakes and the spiders and allthat.
They'll get over that.
But then, you know, fast forwardinto, you know, the 1800s, when
(03:46):
we had the gold rush, we had alot of Italians coming for the
gold chasing riches in Australia.
And of course then later on,when we had in Australia the
populate or perish policy, wherewe were literally paying people
to come to Australia, people tocome to Australia, the poor
people and it really was usuallythe peasant farming community
(04:07):
were offered a chance to getpassage at a very highly
subsidized rate.
They made their way toAustralia and they found their
ways into places like the canefarming in the north and things
like that.
And of course, back then justlike there is in all of these
waves of immigration that camethrough my country, as an
example in Australia prejudiceand stereotyping and this was
(04:32):
this perception of Italians andthey were coming to steal our
jobs and they were coming tobring their you know, maybe some
of their networks and theirreputation around, how strong
the family was, and the familyhas connotations again with
certain stereotypes of Italy.
This is a very well-knownstereotype that existed in
(04:53):
Australia.
And, of course, fast forwardwhen I grew up around a lot of
Italians and the food theybought, their wonderful food,
and of course, what else do wethink?
Of Italians, the coffee, so thecoffee.
Of Italians, the coffee, so thecoffee, the coffee.
And of course you know that'ssomething that's unique in
(05:13):
Australia.
When people go there they thinkyou know why would Australians
have such a coffee culture?
Came from the wonderfulItalians, so stereotyping.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Wherever the Italians went, they left a mark and very
often to, I would argue, toimprove.
Wherever they went, theybrought something that didn't
exist there and I think andwe're doing this show, this
program from the comfort of ourUS, american homes Italians left
(05:45):
a huge mark on the Americas aswell.
In fact, the Americas arecalled America because of an
Italian.
There is some arguments to bemade about the positive
influences largely positiveinfluences that Italian culture
(06:05):
has brought across the globe.
And I just corrected myselfItalian cultures culture, well,
is there more than one?
Perhaps there is, and mostItalians will tell you that
they're not a homogeneousculture, even though we might
think of Italy as this monolithof pizza and pasta and very
(06:26):
expressive, non-verbalcommunication.
And yet, if you look at Italianhistory and how the country is
made, up until the Risorgimentoin the 19th century, italy was
split up like a big quilt, likea mosaic consisting of so many
different puzzle pieces.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Like a pizza.
Perhaps like a pizza.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
And the languages spoken across the Italian
peninsula isn't always the same.
You go down to Sicily, you goto Sardinia, you go to Milan, or
you go to Napoli, or you go toI don't know, go to Bari, and
people will speak differentforms of Italian.
Some would even argue it's adifferent language.
(07:09):
So here's where I go back evenfurther in history across this
in recent months, this questionof how much time do men,
particularly men, spend thinkingabout the Roman Empire?
Well, you should be thinkingabout the Roman Empire to
(07:32):
understand this, Because some2,000, so-and-so years ago,
italians or the Romans conqueredmuch of the Mediterranean world
and beyond, in Europe, inNorthern Africa, and ventured
even up into what is now theNordics or what is now Eastern
(07:54):
Europe and the Middle East.
And those areas had differentlanguages, different cultures
and they needed to communicatefast.
There were people from theempire going to the heart of the
empire, because all roads leadwhere, of course, they lead to
Rome, the heart of the empire.
And if you don't speak thelanguage, if you didn't speak
(08:16):
Latin, the precursor of Italian,then you needed your whole body
to communicate the message.
So there is a scientificargument to be made about why is
Italian language so expressive,emotionally and physically
expressive, because people needto communicate across linguistic
(08:38):
obstacles.
We use our hands and feet andthe rest of our body to relay
the message.
You messaged, I guess, and youbrought up the Australian
connection with Italy.
I come from a country calledGermany.
We're just across the Alps onthe northern side of what is
today Italy.
(08:58):
Our connection when I say our,the German-Italian connection,
even though it brought aboutsome horrific things in the 20th
century.
But our connection when I sayour, the German-Italian
connection, even though itbrought about some horrific
things in the 20th century.
But our connection has beenjust as old as the Roman Empire.
The German culture, some wouldargue, exists only because of
the Roman Empire, because wewere immediate neighbors and we
(09:22):
learned from each other and wefought each other and we loved
each other.
And just like there is lots ofimmigration that came to
Australia from Italy, there waslots of immigration going into
Germany, especially after WorldWar II.
I come from a city, or near acity, called Munich, which the
Italians call Monaco di Baviera,the cittร italiano piรน norte,
(09:45):
the northernmost Italian city.
If you've ever been to Munich,you will recognize the Italian
influence in that city, both informs of architecture, in forms
of cuisine, and Italians willconfirm I don't have to say this
, even though I'm doing it now,but Italians will tell you much
more convincingly than I thatthe best coffee in Germany
(10:07):
you'll get in Bavaria.
It's because of the Italianinfluence.
There seems to be a thread herewith coffee and pasta and pizza.
And then you find lots ofItalian immigration that went to
the Americas and Hollywoodmovies Scorsese and what's the
(10:31):
other guy, coppola.
They made movies thatperpetuated some of those
stereotypes, of thosestereotypes, sometimes in favor
of italian culture, sometimesmore like libel you would.
You could argue, right it,italian culture suffered from
(10:52):
being stereotyped, probably morethan many other cultures around
the world, and that's why webegan this episode with all the
ital Italians do this and talklike this.
All of them, really, have youbeen to Italy?
They don't.
Just as any other stereotypewill only hold up this much
(11:13):
until you really get closer toit and find out about the
reality, the real life.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Well, of course, before the advent of internet
and global news and 24-hour newscycles and things like that,
those populations that came andsettled these countries
essentially were disconnectedfrom their home country.
So there's we've seen that,I've seen this with Greek
clients where they'll say youknow, I've come to America and I
(11:43):
see Greek communities here andthey do things and practice
traditions and they and it'salmost like this is not what we
do now in Greece.
This is different, but it'skind of.
It's historically been carriedon by the immigrant population
here and that can be some sourceof that stereotype too, whereas
(12:05):
the country moves on, evolves,and the people chain, the
culture is dynamic and it's nota monolith and and but, but the
new people that have come hereand historically settled want to
carry on those traditions, thatconnection.
So they may actually and youknow, with in their own, by
their own interests and by theirown actions, promulgate some of
(12:27):
those stereotypes.
So that's, you know, and youtold me that an interesting
connection between Bavaria andItaly.
It's an interesting connectionthere, and that's just one
example of that.
So let's think about, you know,when we do work with people,
we're obviously applying some ofour tools that we use, like
Globesmart, and we think aboutthe profiles of a country, and
(12:50):
this of course imbues theconnection between communication
styles, like we talked about,the more expressive hand
gestures, the more high context,use of context in an Italian
language like Italian, and thenthe attitude to work and the
(13:10):
attitude to all that.
So where do we find that mate?
Where do we see here Italyfalling in that?
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Well, I think it's easily misconstrued as the
impression that one might think.
Because of their emotional andphysical expressiveness,
Italians have a very directstyle of communication and if
you look at the data, if youlook at the available
information we have in culturalcomparison frameworks like
Globesmart, Italy ranks welldead center, more leaning on
(13:39):
indirect communication style.
So the language itself, thewords and the tonality used is
not very direct compared to,let's say, German-Dutch-English
communication style orAmerican-English communication
styles.
And yet the directness that weperceive is probably transported
(14:00):
in the non-verbals right.
Probably transported in thenon-verbals right If there is
direction given, or emotion orthreats, or disagreement or
disinterest shown throughnon-verbals.
That could easily give us theimpression that the
communication style is quitedirect.
The words are not so much, thebody language is, and I've heard
(14:24):
it said by Italians that, well,some things are not to be said.
That implies not to be saidverbally out loud, and yet we do
say it with the nonverbalsright.
So the body language in Italianculture and Italian
communication style does whatthe actual verbal communication
(14:47):
doesn't do.
The directness that is not aspronounced in the verbal
communication in Italianlanguage is added to it by the
nonverbal, which can beconfusing if you go there for
the first time and you come froma culture where you show
emotional restraint and you findthat irritating.
(15:08):
I found that quite fascinating.
I still do, and those of youwho know me and who've traveled
with me know that my happy place, or one of my happy places in
the world, is a part of northernItaly that's called Attua Adige
, which has only been Italianfor about 100 years.
Before that it was part of theAustro-Hungarian Habsburg Empire
(15:31):
and after World War I thewinning parties ruled that this
portion of land should be givento Italy and it became part of
the Italian state, and Italiangovernment since started to
italicize it.
So it's a bilingual area up inthe mountains in northern Italy
(15:54):
and it's fascinating.
Even those parts of thepopulation that speak German
first, they all also speakItalian.
It's a completely bilingualarea, but even the German native
speakers in that area are usingItalian body language.
Even when they communicate tome in German, they will look
(16:21):
Italian in the way theycommunicate.
Case in point that proximitycreates relatability and then we
assimilate and we absorb eachother's communication and
behavioral patterns.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Yeah, and you know, and of course you've told me
about that wonderful area and ofcourse that is the connection
with food too, right, thegastronomic expression that
comes from a mix of cultureslike that, and you know we think
about this.
Maybe Italians is like a bit ofan Epicurean culture, so they
love the creative arts, and thecreative arts makes its way into
(16:57):
fashion, makes its way into the, the food makes its way into
the cars that they produce theFerrari and the Maserati, uh,
these kind of the lunches andthe Fiat's come on.
I'm not diminishing them at allabsolutely.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
And even the little, even the little Vespa, the Vespa
too.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Too right, the vespa, but still vespas.
You know they are a beautifulmachine.
They may not be exactly fast,but they're efficient and
they're, but they are abeautiful machine and people
collect them and spend.
You know, and it's arepresentation if you see a
picture, this is how strong thisis for us as humans.
You see a picture of a vespaand you immediately go to italy,
you immediately kind of putthat connection.
(17:41):
This is how strong these kindof things are.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
But uh, yeah, I know that you love a character who
unfortunately is no longer withus, but uh, that described his
idea of what he discovered initaly right, I would call him
the patron saint of theculturalists, or my spirit, not
animal, my spirit being, I guess, anthony bourdain, the late
(18:05):
anthony bourdain, who and I'mquoting from his book he talked
about italy and specificallyabout rome, and he wrote to me
it's not the big things theytell you about the sculptures,
the imposing squares andbuildings, the monuments, though
they are amazing.
(18:25):
It's the little things, the tinydetails, the improbable
awesomeness of every little damnthing.
Yep, and I agree with you, tonyBourdain, because once you get
to know Italy at that level, Iagree with you, tony Bourdain,
because once you get to knowItaly at that level and this is
what Brett and I've been talkingabout on this program since we
started culture isn't a monolith.
(18:48):
It's in the nuances, it's inthe fine-grained details where
you find the awesomeness inevery little damn thing.
The awesomeness in every littledamn thing, and you will
realize that how people usetheir body to communicate
transports emotion, positive andnegative.
(19:10):
It is a form of expression thatcan be so beautiful if we learn
how to read it and listen to itwith our whole being, and then
it becomes more than astereotype, it becomes
understanding between people,and that's what we're both here
(19:30):
for aren't we?
Speaker 2 (19:32):
uh, we certainly are, and okay, so let's.
Is that like a pizza, where youjust throw a bunch of
ingredients and the mix?
Oh, you started it.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Oh, you said a bunch of ingredients.
Oh, you mean like all thekitchen things, stuff, that's
right, I can't believe it.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
I know, see, and that's what we think of in my
country.
Like, if you think of pizza,some cultures think, yeah,
you're just trying a bunch offood on a piece of kind of
bread-like substance.
And yes, you do that toItalians and of course they will
go bananas because you knowpizza is an art.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
No bananas.
On the pizza, no bananas.
And while we're at it, nopineapple.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Okay, we're going to have a problem here.
We have a problem.
I'm a pineapple pizza guy.
I'm Australian.
I'm a pineapple on hamburgerguy too, so maybe it's just
something to do with you.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
I'm not opposed to pineapple at all.
I think I've talked to Italianswho would agree with you.
Right, I think it's not thattriptish.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
No.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Maybe four ingredients tops.
You need some red sauce, youneed some mozzarella, you need
maybe some prosciutto, someolives, maybe some, maybe I
don't know.
Anchovies, yeah, maybePineapple.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
I'll give you that one.
There is no way in the world Iwould order pineapple on a pizza
in Italy for the fear of beingexcommunicated and extracted.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Maybe there is such a thing.
Tell us, write it in thecomments, show us which pizza
place you've been to in Italythat serves pizza with pineapple
.
I'm sure there is.
I will be surprised if there isOkay.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Well, you know, maybe tourist areas, but this is it.
I think that was very profound.
I think that is something wecan almost end on, because just
what Christian said, right, thisis the beauty, and drawing on
Anthony Bourdain's attitudewherever he went in the world,
attitude wherever he went in theworld, there is so much magic
to be found in not only thephysical intricacies of a
(21:44):
culture, but also just thespiritual and the linguistic and
the relationship side of thingsin a country especially as
complicated and with such a longhistory, in a place like Italy.
These things, you know, I'vebeen to Italy, you can see them
(22:08):
everywhere.
You know, and if you're attuned, like I think, christian and I
are just from sheer annoyingpeople.
We can be a little bit annoyingto people because we might just
kind of ask random strangersTalk about yourself, mate, don't
involve me in this.
Hey, listen, I know what you'relike too, don't worry, I've been
with you, I've traveled in manyparts of the world with you.
I know you'll like it too.
It's just, it's curiosity.
(22:30):
It's curiosity to look yourselfin the mirror and go, yes, I
like pineapple pizza and I lovethat, but I wouldn't do it here
in Italy because look at the,just the.
It's like the complication inthe simplicity.
There's one I'm going to throwat you.
Look at that, look at that.
It is the beauty of thecomplication in the simplicity
(22:51):
of a pizza that just has two orthree ingredients, with a nice,
you know, a nice cleansing beer,something like that.
Yes, exactly, yes, exactly, yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Beer Alfredo, yeah, I give you the pineapple pizza if
you give me the never evercoffee with milk after breakfast
.
Absolutely Okay.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
I'll give you that I don't eat coffee with milk
anyway, so you know.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
You know, for breakfast a cappuccino latte.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yeah, sure.
So you know, you know, forbreakfast a cappuccino latte,
sure for breakfast, milkcappuccino for lunch or dinner
or any time after breakfast.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
You can have all your pineapple piece if you want.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah, so you know, stereotypes actually can be
valuable in getting a little bitof that protocol knowledge
before you go to Italy.
And do not get yelled at bysomebody behind the coffee
counter when you're asking for acappuccino at three o'clock in
the afternoon.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Sometimes people will yell at you.
They will just roll their eyesand turn around and cuss you out
in the town, Probably with bodylanguage that you don't
understand.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
that would be.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Perfect.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Well, have we covered it all body language that you
don't understand.
That would be fine.
Yeah, it would Perfect.
That's great.
Well, we covered it all.
We covered all the stereotypes.
I mean we could sit here allday and blow up stereotypes, you
know.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Many of them.
I think we should stop here,Otherwise our Italian friends
will send somebody for us.
You're done now, yeah that's itWell.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
That's it well, that's it.
Two chaps.
Many cultures, many cultures,many variations of cultures
around the world where too muchculture is barely enough.
Don't forget to hit thesubscribe button and please, as
we always invite you to do, tellus what you think.
What have you discovered?
What magical things have youdiscovered in Italy, if you've
been there, if you've travelledthere?
(24:38):
We'd love to know, becauseprobably we'd love to go there
and explore those for ourselves.
That would be fantastic.
We would highly appreciate it.
So that's it.
Another episode in the can foranother week.
Come back next week.
We'll be back again.
Same bat channel, same bat time.
Well, it is bat time.
It's like Tuesday, everyTuesday or so and we wish you a
(25:01):
very good week and any finalthoughts.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
May it end Arrivederci, arrivederci.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
See you, guys.
Thank you.
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