Strategically establishing and sustaining company culture is no easy feat for any organization. It can be quite a challenge particularly for smaller and midsize enterprises (SMEs). Lean human resource departments in global companies have to get creative when building and developing effective teams across international branch offices.ย
Meet Addie Johnsen, who serves as Chief People Officer at Aperian, and discover the profound influence of cultural intelligence on global operations. Addie has experienced the highs and lows of foreign assignments, and now shares her experience of navigating the intricate dances of corporate culture in her role. Grasp the importance of understanding cultural nuances as Addie reveals how her role transcends the traditional spectrum of HR, advocating for a deeper cultural understanding within the workforce.
We reflect on the international corporate landscape, and discuss the importance of forging durable partnerships with vendors and service providers, a cornerstone for organizational success across national and international borders. With an impressive 18-year tenure, Addie offers valuable insights into aligning with partners who resonate with your company's values, and the subtle balance of nurturing workplace friction that spurs growth without compromising phycological safety.
We also challenge the concept of hiring "for cultural fit," proposing a fresh lens to view the so-called "soft skills" โ now rebranded as critical skills โ as indispensable competencies for collaboration and innovation in today's diverse work environments.
Join us for this episode that celebrates the human element as the driving force in business.
๐๐ฌ๐ค ๐พ๐๐๐ฅ๐จ โ ๐๐๐ฃ๐ฎ ๐พ๐ช๐ก๐ฉ๐ช๐ง๐๐จ is the worldโs #1 show on the business of culture and the culture of business. Christian Hรถferle and Brett Parry ponder culture in short bursts and deep dives, featuring your questions and comments related to culture, business, and personal growth.
Be sure to check out and subscribe to our YouTube channel for even more great content: https://www.youtube.com/@TwoChapsManyCultures
Visit https://theculturemastery.com/ for more information about the skills for working in a global context.
The music on this episode is provided courtesy of Sepalot.
โDuum Diipโ - Artist: Sepalot - Label: Eskapaden - Copyright control
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brett Parry (00:00):
Have you ever been around somebody who you just
look at and go how do you doeverything you do every day?
Well, maybe Christian and Ihave got partners like that.
We look at them and go how doyou do it, these people that
tend to just make everythinghappen on their own?
Well, we're going to talk to aspecial guest today that does
exactly that across the globe.
(00:21):
How about that?
You thought you're anoverachiever.
Let's get into that.
The globe.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
How about that?
You thought you're anoverachiever.
Let's get into that.
Stick around.
Welcome to 2Chaps.
Many Cultures.
In an increasingly globallyconnected world, it is vital to
possess the essential skills ofcultural intelligence.
Listen along as we present thetopics, tips and strategies you
can use to develop the power ofcultural understanding in your
personal and professional life.
(00:48):
Here are your hosts ChristianHuffler and Brett Parry.
Brett Parry (00:53):
Yes, welcome back to Chaps Many Cultures, where
too much culture, too muchculture is barely enough for me
and this bloke beside us.
Now, of course, don't forget,we're going to just ask you, as
we always do, to subscribe toour YouTube channel, and now
we've got our wonderful podcast.
Of course, we always say thatif you don't like looking at us,
you can bear listening to us.
(01:13):
Yes, do that.
Put the headphones on and letus lull you to sleep with our
dulcet tones, if that's whatmakes you tick.
But subscribe to both and allof them and share it with your
friends.
Click on that bell.
Today we are going to talk tosomebody who is an absolute star
(01:33):
, rock star, known in the fieldas an absolute rock star when it
comes to doing things as a oneperson operation.
This sense, as I said in theintro, these people around us
tend to do a lot on their ownand make a lot of things happen
and, at the same time, make alot of people feel really great.
(01:54):
We are absolutely honored towelcome the wonderful Addie
Johnson to the Two Chaps MiniCulture Stage.
Welcome, welcome welcome.
Addie Johnsen (02:05):
It's so good to see you both.
Thank you so much, Boy.
That's quite the introduction.
I'm so glad to be here.
Thank you so much for having me.
Brett Parry (02:15):
Well, it's an honor to have you, addie, and thank
you for joining us.
We took a couple of chances toget this done, and we also.
You know I'm going to be fulldisclosure.
I've known addy a lot andbefore we went live here she
reminded me of how long we'veknown each other and, uh and um,
you know it only shows on yourface, though, brett?
Christian Hรถferle (02:34):
I don't know yeah we haven't aged at all.
Brett Parry (02:36):
I'm not sure how that math works no, no, that's
right, uh, but it you know to mewho's somebody who knows you
and uh and absolutely has thedeepest respect and love for
what you do and how you makepeople feel.
Tell us a little bit aboutAddie Johnson and how you got to
where you are right now.
Addie Johnsen (02:56):
Sure, well, again , I'm so happy to be here and,
brett, that feeling is verymutual with working with you for
many years, and you as well,christian, through our work here
at Aperion.
In terms of my background, I amoriginally from Southern
California.
I'm American, as you can hearthrough my accent.
I was really fortunate to growup in a diverse community and
(03:19):
diverse high school.
I was able to spend a lot oftime in community services
through volunteer work, my firstcouple of jobs, and that led me
to Boston University where Iwent for undergrad.
I was really interestedinitially in psychology but
realized pretty quickly I didnot want to be a psychiatrist or
(03:39):
a psychologist.
But boy, I like history.
So that transitioned intostudying international relations
and I shared with Christian.
I absolutely fell in love withthe German language early on and
, I know, took advantage of theopportunity to go to Dresden,
germany, for study abroad.
(03:59):
While I was there I made everysingle mistake in the book
humanly possible for an American.
In Germany I had the best oftimes, had the worst of times
and everything in between.
I came back to school and wastaking a class, an international
business class, studyingorganizations that had set up
(04:20):
businesses in new countries andfailed, one of which was Walmart
in Germany.
I visited one of the lastWalmarts that was open before
they closed and understandingthe importance of culture that
these companies did not takethat into account when opening
and operating their businesses.
So that same semester I saw aninternship flyer come through
(04:42):
from a company at that time,eaton Consulting Group, which is
now folded into a period abouta company that was actually
helping people go through thesetransitions.
But it didn't actually have tobe so hard to live, work and
thrive in another culture andhow to help organizations take
that culture into account andactually be successful.
(05:05):
So I joined the company, comingup on 18 years this fall as an
intern, sourcing subject matterexperts from around the world to
join our programs and sharewhat it's actually like to live
and work in another country.
So through that experiencesourcing and interviewing and
really getting to pick people'sbrains about why things are
(05:29):
different, how that's showing upin their lives and in their
work, realizing some of thosefunctions are actually HR
functions the interviewing, therecruiting, the relationship
building, the life cycle ofworking with at that time
contractors life cycle ofworking with at that time
contractors over 18 years it'soften to my current role now as
(05:50):
a chief people officer, as adepartment of one, technically
in the human resource function,and that's where I am today.
Christian Hรถferle (05:58):
I want to dive right into this, because
this is a distinction that I'veheard you talk about before.
There's articles withinterviews with you trying to
clarify the terminology.
So you're a chief peopleofficer and you said that's
somewhat of an hr function, butwould you agree that the
(06:21):
terminology is interchangeableor would you insist on chief
people officer and, if so, why?
Addie Johnsen (06:30):
Oh, thanks, christian.
Oh, that's a good question.
We very intentionally as anorganization did shift this
department into peopleoperations and we started to see
that shift at otherorganizations in the last five,
six years in particular, andthat's a large part because of
the use of technology that hasallowed us to automate so many
(06:53):
of the more traditional HRadministration processes.
So people operations takes alarger umbrella underneath that
is the HR administration, thelegal compliance, where that's a
whole field of expertise forfolks, and you also have talent
acquisition, which is anotherset of disciplines under that
(07:14):
umbrella, and people operationstakes it kind of includes both
of those functions, but thefocus really is on the people
part and developing the people.
So with the use of technologyand really great partners're
really able to be in more of astrategic place and working with
(07:47):
senior leadership and focusingon the overall people operations
, not just the HR functions orjust the talent acquisition
portion.
Christian Hรถferle (07:56):
Thanks for that clarification.
Now, brett said you're a.
What was the term?
You used?
One person, one person, people.
So you're a department of onein a small mid-sized enterprise.
Um, how do you have a seat atthe table?
How do you have a voice thatjustifies the c in your job
(08:20):
acronym?
The chief are.
Do you feel like you are havingthat leverage within the
leadership team?
Addie Johnsen (08:29):
I do and as to why, I think there's a few
reasons for that.
I think one really speaks toAparian as an organization.
You know what we do.
It's focused on people.
It's focused on how we canunderstand ourselves better,
understand others, and what wecan do to actually bridge those
boundaries.
(08:49):
And that's work that we do, ofcourse, for our clients, but
it's work that we have to dointernally with each other,
because we are smaller, becausewe're so globally diverse.
So to have a people-focusedindividual on the executive team
is absolutely critical to whatwe do as an organization and how
(09:10):
we will be successful in thisspace.
Our people are our number oneresource.
They're our heart.
It's why we do what we do.
So I have full support from ourmanagement team and executive
team to have the people, thehuman centered approach that we
have.
Brett Parry (09:30):
And for those who don't know, aperion used to be
Aperion Global and you mentionedthe previous iteration of the
company.
But the company today and itsevolution Tell us a little bit
about the company and itsfounders.
Of course, christian and I havepartnered with Aperion and have
a good relationship.
They're good fortune to do so.
Probably know a lot of thestory, but for those who don't,
tell us a little bit aboutAppirion itself.
Addie Johnsen (09:52):
Sure, we are coming up upon our 35-year
anniversary next year, which isreally exciting.
The industry and the fielditself, as you both know, has
evolved so much over the lastthree, four decades.
We were started by our founders, ted and Ernie, on
(10:13):
understanding and seeing theneed to better understand
differences between Japan andthe US.
That's where our foundationswere.
How can we supportorganizations to understand
themselves better and understandthe markets and the people that
they were working with to besuccessful?
There was always this deepconnection to again understand
yourselves, understanding others, and what do you actually do
(10:36):
with that knowledge?
How do you actually bridgethose gaps and those boundaries?
That is still true today.
That's still the work thatwe're doing today.
Obviously, so much has evolvedtoday.
Obviously, so much has evolved.
Back in the 90s it was VHStapes being filmed by our
founders at the local airport,whereas today it's obviously
(10:57):
more of a global reach throughour platform, through training,
consulting as well.
So the modalities and how wework with our clients has
evolved, but the absolute heartand mission of what we do again,
that human-centered approachhas always stayed the same.
Christian Hรถferle (11:12):
We work a lot with customers who would
classify an SME as a small ormid-sized enterprise where their
organizational structures mightbe similar to that of a parian.
Your role is a one-persondepartment, or maybe a two to
three-person department wherethey have to be jacks or jills
(11:33):
of all trades in that departmentor have good external partners
to help them fulfill thesefunctions.
And I've also read aboutAparian, and I think it was in
an interview you gave Was it onForbes or Fortune, I forget
which platform it was on andwe'll make sure to post that
(11:55):
link to that interview in theshow notes.
You said since the parent is atraining company at heart, all
of the employees go through thetraining right, which is, I
think, a fantastic approachbecause you eat your own cooking
.
Now, going from your 18 yearsof experience of doing what you
do in a mid-sized organization,what would you advise people in
(12:19):
your role in companies that arenot training companies, who
manufacture something, whoprovide a service, who have some
other market solution thatmakes them a very successful
enterprise in their field?
Addie Johnsen (12:40):
What is the advice you would give people
officers in those adjacentfields or our client companies?
I think the importance ofhaving really amazing partners.
I'm technically a department ofone on the org chart, but in
reality there's so many folksthat I rely heavily on and, of
course, our line managers orother management team members,
hr functions and financefunctions.
(13:00):
We're best friends.
So I work with so many criticalpartners inside my own
organization that I could not dowhat I do without them and
their support and encouragement.
But external partners are soimportant, having a good
understanding of their valuesand if they align with your own.
(13:20):
A great example for one of ourpartners is Bamboo HR.
They're a human resourceinformation system.
Their mission is to set peoplefree to do good work, get the
administrative stuff out of yourway so you can actually focus
on people.
Yes, when I talked to theirfirst representative, I thought
(13:40):
wait, but that's what I want todo.
That's exactly what gets meexcited about my job like help
people do their best work.
So to partner with a companythat has the similar values is
so important, and they takereally great care of their
employees as well.
Every single person you comeinto contact with is excited to
help their team.
(14:00):
They have excellent reviewsonline.
They have great benefits fortheir employees.
So finding a partner withshared values is important, and
happy employees engage thinkabout.
Brett Parry (14:34):
Historically, I've always thought as a business
owner.
I've always thought if we canget rid of friction and maybe
what you're referring to interms of administration, that
can be friction, that can begetting in the way of people
being set free, as the bamboobamboo folks say.
However, you know, recently Iwas talking to executive and and
she said to me actually thefriction, some friction is
necessary, because if there wastoo much kind of openness and
(14:58):
everybody was fitted together,there'd be no challenging of
ideas, there'd be no creativity,there'd be no, you know,
innovation.
How do you balance that, addy,as a professional who's worked
with so many people from allaround the globe, different
identities, differentbackgrounds, different languages
, all of these kind of things?
Well, I mean, there's probablyno secret sauce to it, but do
(15:22):
you find, you know, when do youthink the too much friction is
enough, or too much friction is,or maybe you need a little bit
more of kind of challengingideas?
Maybe it's a difficult questionto answer, but I, you know, I'm
interested in that.
Addie Johnsen (15:35):
Yeah, I, you.
I'm so glad that you youidentified that, brett, because
the healthy friction, that that,that window where you're just
outside your comfort zone butyou still feel safe, that's
where you're where, where you'regrowing right, that's where the
growth is coming, that's whereyou have an opportunity to check
in on yourself what am Ilearning, where am I at, where
(15:57):
can I go?
And you just don't tend to getthat sort of self-reflection or
challenge if you're constantlyin that, that safe zone.
So that, just that it's a thinstrip before you go too far and
then you don't feel safe to takethat risk.
So to be able to have anatmosphere and a culture that is
(16:17):
safe psychological safetyobviously, is a really important
topic.
I'm so glad that's somethingthat's spoken about more openly
now at organizations.
How can you create channels andavenues for folks to raise some
friction, to address somefriction that's there in a way
that feels safe for them and forothers?
Especially, as you called out,brett, when you have folks that
(16:39):
are in different parts of theworld, you have different work
styles and cultural preferences,how you even address the
friction and the conflict isgoing to be very different.
So, having kind of differentmodalities, whether it's through
one-on-one, it's closerelationships, having a close
partnership or ally in theworkplace that can advocate for
(17:01):
you, or general public forumswhere folks can raise questions.
Christian Hรถferle (17:06):
So having different ways for folks to lean
into that friction in a waythat's safe for them is really
healthy now, before we get tothat point where we ask
(17:39):
ourselves in within a teamwhether it is safe or not safe
to venture into the frictionzone where we learn something
new.
Before we get to that, there isthe process of bringing people
together as teams.
So you are also or you did thatfor a long, long time
recruiting.
You bring people into teams.
So is there something and Iknow what my answer is to this,
I'm a bit facetious about this.
(18:01):
So we've heard a lot and readabout for years about the
cultural fit right in hiring.
Do we hire for fit?
Do we hire for skill?
Do we hire for skill?
Do we hire for both?
Is there some in yourexperience?
Is there such a thing as hiringfor fit, or is that a myth?
Addie Johnsen (18:22):
I feel like the idea of of cultural fit was
really growing, probably about adecade, maybe 10, 15 years ago,
and that was the first timewhere you were hiring folks not
the first time, I'm sure folkswere certainly ahead of their
times to be on the industry thatyou were looking not just
what's on a resume and whatskills they had, but what really
(18:46):
would make them successful atyour organization.
So you're starting to look atmore what could be considered
soft skills, how they willcommunicate, how they will work
with others, can they exhibitthe behaviors that will allow
them to be successful at theorganization.
So when it first came out,cultural fit I think was really
exciting, the big advancement inthe field.
(19:07):
But as the conversation hasshifted and where we've all
become much more evolved in thespace of diversity, equity,
inclusion and belonging, theidea that you have this perfect
model, cookie cutter culturalfit a candidate has to fit into
this box that's been fitting inwith the organization is
(19:29):
actually really limiting box.
That's been fitting in with theorganization is actually really
limiting, right, and it'sleading or it can lead to you
frankly hiring people just likeyou and just the way you act and
think and behave.
So it's a bit of a semanticshift, but the idea that you
should be looking for culturalad right.
So folks that can contribute toyour organization's culture,
(19:51):
that can challenge you in ahealthy way, encourage you to
grow, inspire that's what you'relooking for.
Christian Hรถferle (19:58):
So more of the add than but for a recruiter
, that can be a very strategicapproach.
Then right, because you have toassess what element would add
to what we currently have.
We need to fill a position, orwe're growing and we're adding
people for certain roles, and ifyou're in charge of recruiting
or if you're part of the company, now I saw my great colleague
(20:39):
smile a little bit when you saidthe word soft skills two words
right, let's call that two words, or yeah, um, sometimes it's a
grimace when he hears that.
Brett Parry (20:45):
I know that, so I want to call I.
I want to kind of bring thatinto the conversation.
This definition of soft skills,which you know.
For me and Christian definitely, who taught me this it really
defines something that may benot as important.
So how do you refocus thatterminology in?
Because what you're talkingabout there are critical skills,
(21:05):
there are important skills,there are things that can make
or break things an organizationor the way that organizations
work together.
So how do you reframe that forpeople that are coming into an
organization and make sure thatthey're aware that these people
skills are important?
Addie Johnsen (21:20):
Yes, I'm so glad that you caught that and thank
you, christian, for thenonverbal cue.
Yes exactly, I think again, theidea of culture and how that
ties into soft skills.
They haven't been a priority,they never were before.
Right, you're looking at hardskills.
What's on a resume?
What software do you know?
(21:41):
What technically can you do?
And you're right, brett, likeit is critical now, and that's
what has me really excited forhow the people operations space
has evolved.
It really is seeing these skillsthat used to be soft as
critical.
You have to be able tocollaborate with folks with
(22:01):
different work styles.
You have to be able tocommunicate effectively with
folks in different regionsfunctions.
They're no longer nice to haves, they're absolutely critical.
So what I'm seeing now, bothinternally in terms of, of
course, recruitment and talent,but also externally with our
clients, they see that ascritical.
Now, too, it's much more easy.
(22:25):
It's easier now to learn a hardskill.
There are a lot of freeresources out there.
There's a lot of really greatways to further your education,
and the advances of technologycan really help us in that space
.
So focusing on how to get thosecritical skills, what you used
to know as soft skills,absolutely have to be a big
(22:45):
focus for organizations movingforward to develop their talent,
resources, their people.
You have to have the focus onthese critical skills because
exactly that they're critical,and so it's helpful seeing that
reflected in organizations'priorities now too.
Christian Hรถferle (23:07):
Now you've been in the game long enough to
have experienced the up and downcycles in the industry or on
the client side for servicesthat companies like Aparian or
our companies provide.
I'm just experiencing this withone of my long-term clients,
that they're going through adownward turn and they're
(23:29):
letting people go.
That would be my points ofcontact, our access points into
the organization, whether it bein people, organization function
or learning and development, orhowever you want to classify
those organizational niches andit appears that these quote
(23:54):
unquote softer functions havebecome less important on an
operational level when it is allabout meeting the margin goals
and getting the bottom linestraightened out now.
So, in your experience, howhave you been dealing with, and
how has your organization beendealing with, these cyclical
(24:20):
developments in the need for ourservices?
Addie Johnsen (24:26):
Yeah, that is an age-old challenge right within
this industry and that is achallenge that hasn't gone away
and probably will not, becauseyou're right.
When it comes down, betweenlooking at your budgets and like
, well, I either need to cut asoftware that my team needs to
get their jobs done or I'm goingto need to reduce my training
(24:46):
and development budget, thoseare real options that clients
need to look at and it makes itreally really challenging For us
.
We've been fortunate to havereally great champions and
partners within ourorganizations that do have that
same view that we do.
That these are critical skills,and you can have fantastic
(25:08):
software and hard skills, but ifyou're not able to collaborate,
you're not able to communicate,you're not able to have a
workplace that fosters inclusionand innovation.
You're limited.
You're only going to get so far.
So it is playing a little bitinto the long game, not just
short.
Let's make the next six monthsof profit, but I need my
(25:29):
workforce to continue to grow sothat we can continue to be
successful.
Having close partnershipswithin these organizations to
understand that is reallyhelpful, but it is a real
challenge.
If that was an easier fix, boy,I'd love that.
Let me know if you find one.
That is a real challenge.
Brett Parry (25:48):
Well, one of the I guess the thing, the unique
thing about Aperian and I guessone of the reasons I've always
been very loyal and respectfulof the founders and folks in the
organization like you and Iknow Christian is too is that
you have if we're going to talkabout technology is a tool
that's proprietary to Aperion,and I guess that's the
(26:12):
difference right when you've gotsomething like Globesmart,
which is an online tool thatpeople can use on a daily basis,
but everybody that comes out ofthe organization and the people
that work and partner withAperion, like Christian and I,
get to use that every day.
We use it in our DNA.
It's the very essence of whatwe teach and maybe that is a bit
(26:35):
of a help for a period.
That's what's made it surviveover 35 years of this success,
layered, of course, or supportedby the wonderful founders, ted
and Ernie, and folks like you,addy, that have made this
organization tick.
We just want to thank you forcoming along and sharing your
(26:55):
knowledge and your insights anduh, here's to another 18 years
of uh.
Why are you laughing so much?
This is, you know, like twice,if you're okay well.
Addie Johnsen (27:12):
Thank you both so much for having me.
It was great to have this chat.
It was good to see you both.
Brett Parry (27:17):
Well, thank you very much.
Well, I'll leave you to sign itoff, mate.
What do you got to say?
Anything to add?
Christian Hรถferle (27:23):
Well, I'm going to say first of all, again
, thank you, addy, for takingtime and I hope you all listened
those of you who are in thepeople business there are no
secret sauces.
There are best practices,lessons learned and, yes, there
might be times when it'schallenging to do the work that
we do.
In the end, it's not thecompany who is or does something
(27:49):
.
It's the people within thecompany that make the stuff,
that do the things, that let thecompany grow or succeed.
And let's take care of ourpeople.
Brett Parry (28:01):
Absolutely.
Two Chaps Many Cultures.
Don't forget again, subscribe,listen, do whatever you need to
do to put us in front of youevery day.
Apologies in advance of that,but this is Two Chaps Many
Cultures, again, where too muchculture is barely enough, and
we'll look forward to seeing youon our next episode next week.
(28:22):
All the best, thanks, addy.
Ciao for now, outro Music.
Have you ever been around somebody who you just
look at and go how do you doeverything you do every day?
Well, maybe Christian and Ihave got partners like that.
We look at them and go how doyou do it, these people that
tend to just make everythinghappen on their own?
Well, we're going to talk to aspecial guest today that does
exactly that across the globe.
(00:21):
How about that?
You thought you're anoverachiever.
Let's get into that.
The globe.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
How about that?
You thought you're anoverachiever.
Let's get into that.
Stick around.
Welcome to 2Chaps.
Many Cultures.
In an increasingly globallyconnected world, it is vital to
possess the essential skills ofcultural intelligence.
Listen along as we present thetopics, tips and strategies you
can use to develop the power ofcultural understanding in your
personal and professional life.
(00:48):
Here are your hosts ChristianHuffler and Brett Parry.
Brett Parry (00:53):
Yes, welcome back to Chaps Many Cultures, where
too much culture, too muchculture is barely enough for me
and this bloke beside us.
Now, of course, don't forget,we're going to just ask you, as
we always do, to subscribe toour YouTube channel, and now
we've got our wonderful podcast.
Of course, we always say thatif you don't like looking at us,
you can bear listening to us.
(01:13):
Yes, do that.
Put the headphones on and letus lull you to sleep with our
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But subscribe to both and allof them and share it with your
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Today we are going to talk tosomebody who is an absolute star
(01:33):
, rock star, known in the fieldas an absolute rock star when it
comes to doing things as a oneperson operation.
This sense, as I said in theintro, these people around us
tend to do a lot on their ownand make a lot of things happen
and, at the same time, make alot of people feel really great.
(01:54):
We are absolutely honored towelcome the wonderful Addie
Johnson to the Two Chaps MiniCulture Stage.
Welcome, welcome welcome.
Addie Johnsen (02:05):
It's so good to see you both.
Thank you so much, Boy.
That's quite the introduction.
I'm so glad to be here.
Thank you so much for having me.
Brett Parry (02:15):
Well, it's an honor to have you, addie, and thank
you for joining us.
We took a couple of chances toget this done, and we also.
You know I'm going to be fulldisclosure.
I've known addy a lot andbefore we went live here she
reminded me of how long we'veknown each other and, uh and um,
you know it only shows on yourface, though, brett?
Christian Hรถferle (02:34):
I don't know yeah we haven't aged at all.
Brett Parry (02:36):
I'm not sure how that math works no, no, that's
right, uh, but it you know to mewho's somebody who knows you
and uh and absolutely has thedeepest respect and love for
what you do and how you makepeople feel.
Tell us a little bit aboutAddie Johnson and how you got to
where you are right now.
Addie Johnsen (02:56):
Sure, well, again , I'm so happy to be here and,
brett, that feeling is verymutual with working with you for
many years, and you as well,christian, through our work here
at Aperion.
In terms of my background, I amoriginally from Southern
California.
I'm American, as you can hearthrough my accent.
I was really fortunate to growup in a diverse community and
(03:19):
diverse high school.
I was able to spend a lot oftime in community services
through volunteer work, my firstcouple of jobs, and that led me
to Boston University where Iwent for undergrad.
I was really interestedinitially in psychology but
realized pretty quickly I didnot want to be a psychiatrist or
(03:39):
a psychologist.
But boy, I like history.
So that transitioned intostudying international relations
and I shared with Christian.
I absolutely fell in love withthe German language early on and
, I know, took advantage of theopportunity to go to Dresden,
germany, for study abroad.
(03:59):
While I was there I made everysingle mistake in the book
humanly possible for an American.
In Germany I had the best oftimes, had the worst of times
and everything in between.
I came back to school and wastaking a class, an international
business class, studyingorganizations that had set up
(04:20):
businesses in new countries andfailed, one of which was Walmart
in Germany.
I visited one of the lastWalmarts that was open before
they closed and understandingthe importance of culture that
these companies did not takethat into account when opening
and operating their businesses.
So that same semester I saw aninternship flyer come through
(04:42):
from a company at that time,eaton Consulting Group, which is
now folded into a period abouta company that was actually
helping people go through thesetransitions.
But it didn't actually have tobe so hard to live, work and
thrive in another culture andhow to help organizations take
that culture into account andactually be successful.
(05:05):
So I joined the company, comingup on 18 years this fall as an
intern, sourcing subject matterexperts from around the world to
join our programs and sharewhat it's actually like to live
and work in another country.
So through that experiencesourcing and interviewing and
really getting to pick people'sbrains about why things are
(05:29):
different, how that's showing upin their lives and in their
work, realizing some of thosefunctions are actually HR
functions the interviewing, therecruiting, the relationship
building, the life cycle ofworking with at that time
contractors life cycle ofworking with at that time
contractors over 18 years it'soften to my current role now as
(05:50):
a chief people officer, as adepartment of one, technically
in the human resource function,and that's where I am today.
Christian Hรถferle (05:58):
I want to dive right into this, because
this is a distinction that I'veheard you talk about before.
There's articles withinterviews with you trying to
clarify the terminology.
So you're a chief peopleofficer and you said that's
somewhat of an hr function, butwould you agree that the
(06:21):
terminology is interchangeableor would you insist on chief
people officer and, if so, why?
Addie Johnsen (06:30):
Oh, thanks, christian.
Oh, that's a good question.
We very intentionally as anorganization did shift this
department into peopleoperations and we started to see
that shift at otherorganizations in the last five,
six years in particular, andthat's a large part because of
the use of technology that hasallowed us to automate so many
(06:53):
of the more traditional HRadministration processes.
So people operations takes alarger umbrella underneath that
is the HR administration, thelegal compliance, where that's a
whole field of expertise forfolks, and you also have talent
acquisition, which is anotherset of disciplines under that
(07:14):
umbrella, and people operationstakes it kind of includes both
of those functions, but thefocus really is on the people
part and developing the people.
So with the use of technologyand really great partners're
really able to be in more of astrategic place and working with
(07:47):
senior leadership and focusingon the overall people operations
, not just the HR functions orjust the talent acquisition
portion.
Christian Hรถferle (07:56):
Thanks for that clarification.
Now, brett said you're a.
What was the term?
You used?
One person, one person, people.
So you're a department of onein a small mid-sized enterprise.
Um, how do you have a seat atthe table?
How do you have a voice thatjustifies the c in your job
(08:20):
acronym?
The chief are.
Do you feel like you are havingthat leverage within the
leadership team?
Addie Johnsen (08:29):
I do and as to why, I think there's a few
reasons for that.
I think one really speaks toAparian as an organization.
You know what we do.
It's focused on people.
It's focused on how we canunderstand ourselves better,
understand others, and what wecan do to actually bridge those
boundaries.
(08:49):
And that's work that we do, ofcourse, for our clients, but
it's work that we have to dointernally with each other,
because we are smaller, becausewe're so globally diverse.
So to have a people-focusedindividual on the executive team
is absolutely critical to whatwe do as an organization and how
(09:10):
we will be successful in thisspace.
Our people are our number oneresource.
They're our heart.
It's why we do what we do.
So I have full support from ourmanagement team and executive
team to have the people, thehuman centered approach that we
have.
Brett Parry (09:30):
And for those who don't know, aperion used to be
Aperion Global and you mentionedthe previous iteration of the
company.
But the company today and itsevolution Tell us a little bit
about the company and itsfounders.
Of course, christian and I havepartnered with Aperion and have
a good relationship.
They're good fortune to do so.
Probably know a lot of thestory, but for those who don't,
tell us a little bit aboutAppirion itself.
Addie Johnsen (09:52):
Sure, we are coming up upon our 35-year
anniversary next year, which isreally exciting.
The industry and the fielditself, as you both know, has
evolved so much over the lastthree, four decades.
We were started by our founders, ted and Ernie, on
(10:13):
understanding and seeing theneed to better understand
differences between Japan andthe US.
That's where our foundationswere.
How can we supportorganizations to understand
themselves better and understandthe markets and the people that
they were working with to besuccessful?
There was always this deepconnection to again understand
yourselves, understanding others, and what do you actually do
(10:36):
with that knowledge?
How do you actually bridgethose gaps and those boundaries?
That is still true today.
That's still the work thatwe're doing today.
Obviously, so much has evolvedtoday.
Obviously, so much has evolved.
Back in the 90s it was VHStapes being filmed by our
founders at the local airport,whereas today it's obviously
(10:57):
more of a global reach throughour platform, through training,
consulting as well.
So the modalities and how wework with our clients has
evolved, but the absolute heartand mission of what we do again,
that human-centered approachhas always stayed the same.
Christian Hรถferle (11:12):
We work a lot with customers who would
classify an SME as a small ormid-sized enterprise where their
organizational structures mightbe similar to that of a parian.
Your role is a one-persondepartment, or maybe a two to
three-person department wherethey have to be jacks or jills
(11:33):
of all trades in that departmentor have good external partners
to help them fulfill thesefunctions.
And I've also read aboutAparian, and I think it was in
an interview you gave Was it onForbes or Fortune, I forget
which platform it was on andwe'll make sure to post that
(11:55):
link to that interview in theshow notes.
You said since the parent is atraining company at heart, all
of the employees go through thetraining right, which is, I
think, a fantastic approachbecause you eat your own cooking
.
Now, going from your 18 yearsof experience of doing what you
do in a mid-sized organization,what would you advise people in
(12:19):
your role in companies that arenot training companies, who
manufacture something, whoprovide a service, who have some
other market solution thatmakes them a very successful
enterprise in their field?
Addie Johnsen (12:40):
What is the advice you would give people
officers in those adjacentfields or our client companies?
I think the importance ofhaving really amazing partners.
I'm technically a department ofone on the org chart, but in
reality there's so many folksthat I rely heavily on and, of
course, our line managers orother management team members,
hr functions and financefunctions.
(13:00):
We're best friends.
So I work with so many criticalpartners inside my own
organization that I could not dowhat I do without them and
their support and encouragement.
But external partners are soimportant, having a good
understanding of their valuesand if they align with your own.
(13:20):
A great example for one of ourpartners is Bamboo HR.
They're a human resourceinformation system.
Their mission is to set peoplefree to do good work, get the
administrative stuff out of yourway so you can actually focus
on people.
Yes, when I talked to theirfirst representative, I thought
(13:40):
wait, but that's what I want todo.
That's exactly what gets meexcited about my job like help
people do their best work.
So to partner with a companythat has the similar values is
so important, and they takereally great care of their
employees as well.
Every single person you comeinto contact with is excited to
help their team.
(14:00):
They have excellent reviewsonline.
They have great benefits fortheir employees.
So finding a partner withshared values is important, and
happy employees engage thinkabout.
Brett Parry (14:34):
Historically, I've always thought as a business
owner.
I've always thought if we canget rid of friction and maybe
what you're referring to interms of administration, that
can be friction, that can begetting in the way of people
being set free, as the bamboobamboo folks say.
However, you know, recently Iwas talking to executive and and
she said to me actually thefriction, some friction is
necessary, because if there wastoo much kind of openness and
(14:58):
everybody was fitted together,there'd be no challenging of
ideas, there'd be no creativity,there'd be no, you know,
innovation.
How do you balance that, addy,as a professional who's worked
with so many people from allaround the globe, different
identities, differentbackgrounds, different languages
, all of these kind of things?
Well, I mean, there's probablyno secret sauce to it, but do
(15:22):
you find, you know, when do youthink the too much friction is
enough, or too much friction is,or maybe you need a little bit
more of kind of challengingideas?
Maybe it's a difficult questionto answer, but I, you know, I'm
interested in that.
Addie Johnsen (15:35):
Yeah, I, you.
I'm so glad that you youidentified that, brett, because
the healthy friction, that that,that window where you're just
outside your comfort zone butyou still feel safe, that's
where you're where, where you'regrowing right, that's where the
growth is coming, that's whereyou have an opportunity to check
in on yourself what am Ilearning, where am I at, where
(15:57):
can I go?
And you just don't tend to getthat sort of self-reflection or
challenge if you're constantlyin that, that safe zone.
So that, just that it's a thinstrip before you go too far and
then you don't feel safe to takethat risk.
So to be able to have anatmosphere and a culture that is
(16:17):
safe psychological safetyobviously, is a really important
topic.
I'm so glad that's somethingthat's spoken about more openly
now at organizations.
How can you create channels andavenues for folks to raise some
friction, to address somefriction that's there in a way
that feels safe for them and forothers?
Especially, as you called out,brett, when you have folks that
(16:39):
are in different parts of theworld, you have different work
styles and cultural preferences,how you even address the
friction and the conflict isgoing to be very different.
So, having kind of differentmodalities, whether it's through
one-on-one, it's closerelationships, having a close
partnership or ally in theworkplace that can advocate for
(17:01):
you, or general public forumswhere folks can raise questions.
Christian Hรถferle (17:06):
So having different ways for folks to lean
into that friction in a waythat's safe for them is really
healthy now, before we get tothat point where we ask
(17:39):
ourselves in within a teamwhether it is safe or not safe
to venture into the frictionzone where we learn something
new.
Before we get to that, there isthe process of bringing people
together as teams.
So you are also or you did thatfor a long, long time
recruiting.
You bring people into teams.
So is there something and Iknow what my answer is to this,
I'm a bit facetious about this.
(18:01):
So we've heard a lot and readabout for years about the
cultural fit right in hiring.
Do we hire for fit?
Do we hire for skill?
Do we hire for skill?
Do we hire for both?
Is there some in yourexperience?
Is there such a thing as hiringfor fit, or is that a myth?
Addie Johnsen (18:22):
I feel like the idea of of cultural fit was
really growing, probably about adecade, maybe 10, 15 years ago,
and that was the first timewhere you were hiring folks not
the first time, I'm sure folkswere certainly ahead of their
times to be on the industry thatyou were looking not just
what's on a resume and whatskills they had, but what really
(18:46):
would make them successful atyour organization.
So you're starting to look atmore what could be considered
soft skills, how they willcommunicate, how they will work
with others, can they exhibitthe behaviors that will allow
them to be successful at theorganization.
So when it first came out,cultural fit I think was really
exciting, the big advancement inthe field.
(19:07):
But as the conversation hasshifted and where we've all
become much more evolved in thespace of diversity, equity,
inclusion and belonging, theidea that you have this perfect
model, cookie cutter culturalfit a candidate has to fit into
this box that's been fitting inwith the organization is
(19:29):
actually really limiting box.
That's been fitting in with theorganization is actually really
limiting, right, and it'sleading or it can lead to you
frankly hiring people just likeyou and just the way you act and
think and behave.
So it's a bit of a semanticshift, but the idea that you
should be looking for culturalad right.
So folks that can contribute toyour organization's culture,
(19:51):
that can challenge you in ahealthy way, encourage you to
grow, inspire that's what you'relooking for.
Christian Hรถferle (19:58):
So more of the add than but for a recruiter
, that can be a very strategicapproach.
Then right, because you have toassess what element would add
to what we currently have.
We need to fill a position, orwe're growing and we're adding
people for certain roles, and ifyou're in charge of recruiting
or if you're part of the company, now I saw my great colleague
(20:39):
smile a little bit when you saidthe word soft skills two words
right, let's call that two words, or yeah, um, sometimes it's a
grimace when he hears that.
Brett Parry (20:45):
I know that, so I want to call I.
I want to kind of bring thatinto the conversation.
This definition of soft skills,which you know.
For me and Christian definitely, who taught me this it really
defines something that may benot as important.
So how do you refocus thatterminology in?
Because what you're talkingabout there are critical skills,
(21:05):
there are important skills,there are things that can make
or break things an organizationor the way that organizations
work together.
So how do you reframe that forpeople that are coming into an
organization and make sure thatthey're aware that these people
skills are important?
Addie Johnsen (21:20):
Yes, I'm so glad that you caught that and thank
you, christian, for thenonverbal cue.
Yes exactly, I think again, theidea of culture and how that
ties into soft skills.
They haven't been a priority,they never were before.
Right, you're looking at hardskills.
What's on a resume?
What software do you know?
(21:41):
What technically can you do?
And you're right, brett, likeit is critical now, and that's
what has me really excited forhow the people operations space
has evolved.
It really is seeing these skillsthat used to be soft as
critical.
You have to be able tocollaborate with folks with
(22:01):
different work styles.
You have to be able tocommunicate effectively with
folks in different regionsfunctions.
They're no longer nice to haves, they're absolutely critical.
So what I'm seeing now, bothinternally in terms of, of
course, recruitment and talent,but also externally with our
clients, they see that ascritical.
Now, too, it's much more easy.
(22:25):
It's easier now to learn a hardskill.
There are a lot of freeresources out there.
There's a lot of really greatways to further your education,
and the advances of technologycan really help us in that space
.
So focusing on how to get thosecritical skills, what you used
to know as soft skills,absolutely have to be a big
(22:45):
focus for organizations movingforward to develop their talent,
resources, their people.
You have to have the focus onthese critical skills because
exactly that they're critical,and so it's helpful seeing that
reflected in organizations'priorities now too.
Christian Hรถferle (23:07):
Now you've been in the game long enough to
have experienced the up and downcycles in the industry or on
the client side for servicesthat companies like Aparian or
our companies provide.
I'm just experiencing this withone of my long-term clients,
that they're going through adownward turn and they're
(23:29):
letting people go.
That would be my points ofcontact, our access points into
the organization, whether it bein people, organization function
or learning and development, orhowever you want to classify
those organizational niches andit appears that these quote
(23:54):
unquote softer functions havebecome less important on an
operational level when it is allabout meeting the margin goals
and getting the bottom linestraightened out now.
So, in your experience, howhave you been dealing with, and
how has your organization beendealing with, these cyclical
(24:20):
developments in the need for ourservices?
Addie Johnsen (24:26):
Yeah, that is an age-old challenge right within
this industry and that is achallenge that hasn't gone away
and probably will not, becauseyou're right.
When it comes down, betweenlooking at your budgets and like
, well, I either need to cut asoftware that my team needs to
get their jobs done or I'm goingto need to reduce my training
(24:46):
and development budget, thoseare real options that clients
need to look at and it makes itreally really challenging For us
.
We've been fortunate to havereally great champions and
partners within ourorganizations that do have that
same view that we do.
That these are critical skills,and you can have fantastic
(25:08):
software and hard skills, but ifyou're not able to collaborate,
you're not able to communicate,you're not able to have a
workplace that fosters inclusionand innovation.
You're limited.
You're only going to get so far.
So it is playing a little bitinto the long game, not just
short.
Let's make the next six monthsof profit, but I need my
(25:29):
workforce to continue to grow sothat we can continue to be
successful.
Having close partnershipswithin these organizations to
understand that is reallyhelpful, but it is a real
challenge.
If that was an easier fix, boy,I'd love that.
Let me know if you find one.
That is a real challenge.
Brett Parry (25:48):
Well, one of the I guess the thing, the unique
thing about Aperian and I guessone of the reasons I've always
been very loyal and respectfulof the founders and folks in the
organization like you and Iknow Christian is too is that
you have if we're going to talkabout technology is a tool
that's proprietary to Aperion,and I guess that's the
(26:12):
difference right when you've gotsomething like Globesmart,
which is an online tool thatpeople can use on a daily basis,
but everybody that comes out ofthe organization and the people
that work and partner withAperion, like Christian and I,
get to use that every day.
We use it in our DNA.
It's the very essence of whatwe teach and maybe that is a bit
(26:35):
of a help for a period.
That's what's made it surviveover 35 years of this success,
layered, of course, or supportedby the wonderful founders, ted
and Ernie, and folks like you,addy, that have made this
organization tick.
We just want to thank you forcoming along and sharing your
(26:55):
knowledge and your insights anduh, here's to another 18 years
of uh.
Why are you laughing so much?
This is, you know, like twice,if you're okay well.
Addie Johnsen (27:12):
Thank you both so much for having me.
It was great to have this chat.
It was good to see you both.
Brett Parry (27:17):
Well, thank you very much.
Well, I'll leave you to sign itoff, mate.
What do you got to say?
Anything to add?
Christian Hรถferle (27:23):
Well, I'm going to say first of all, again
, thank you, addy, for takingtime and I hope you all listened
those of you who are in thepeople business there are no
secret sauces.
There are best practices,lessons learned and, yes, there
might be times when it'schallenging to do the work that
we do.
In the end, it's not thecompany who is or does something
(27:49):
.
It's the people within thecompany that make the stuff,
that do the things, that let thecompany grow or succeed.
And let's take care of ourpeople.
Brett Parry (28:01):
Absolutely.
Two Chaps Many Cultures.
Don't forget again, subscribe,listen, do whatever you need to
do to put us in front of youevery day.
Apologies in advance of that,but this is Two Chaps Many
Cultures, again, where too muchculture is barely enough, and
we'll look forward to seeing youon our next episode next week.
(28:22):
All the best, thanks, addy.
Ciao for now, outro Music.
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