The Interdiction Game: High-Stakes Hide and Seek

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(00:20):
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All right, welcome back to CopsOne Donut.

(00:44):
I'm your host, eric Levine.
Today I got with me retiredMichigan State Trooper Jose
Patino.
What's up, buddy?
Hey, good to see you again.
You too, sir.
We met what a year ago.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
Probably.
Yeah, it was at RTCC, right.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
We met at the NationalReal-Time Crime Center
Association's conference, the2024 conference.
This year's conference is goingto be in Cobb County, Georgia.

Speaker 2 (01:13):
Yeah, just outside of Atlanta.
Yeah, just outside of Atlanta.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
And it's going to be crazy.
We got a ton of huge, hugecompanies, a ton of other police
agencies that are involved.
Now, the last four years ofgrowing has been insane.
We're very, very blessed andthey got very big.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
And.

Speaker 1 (01:34):
I know some of these guys are going to be listening
and be like what is all of that?
That is not the point oftoday's podcast.
Just kind of giving you guyswhere we met and came from.
But Jose Michigan State Police,how long was that career?

Speaker 2 (01:49):
It's just short of 26 years 26 years Okay 25.
And then we have the dropprogram, like a lot of agencies
now and did about six months ofthat and called it quits.

Speaker 1 (01:59):
Okay.
So I'm just curious what was itabout writing tickets and not
doing actual police work thatdrew you to being a trooper?

Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, well, up here in Michiganyou know we're full service
state police.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
That is true, that is true.

Speaker 2 (02:14):
Yeah, I didn't start it in that world right, doing
complaints and tickets and stuff, and then it kind of morphed
into more of the drug world.
So most of my career was spentuh running a drug interdiction
unit.
Okay.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
Well, let's, let's uh rewind a little bit.
I know a lot of people get intolaw enforcement and there's
always weird draws for peopleand you'll hear some of the
counter um, police, you know, oh, you were probably bullied in
high school and you just want tohave, you know, uh, authority
over people.
The badge and the gun make youa tough guy, or, uh, you get

(02:48):
that side of it.
But then, like for me, I hadlaw enforcement in my family.
Um, that's not exactly why Ibecame a cop, I would tell in.
Most people that have been onlistening to the show know that
the thing that probably drew meinto law enforcement or or life
of service in general was thefact that when we would go to
family reunions, everybody wasalways drawn and surrounded the

(03:13):
people that were EMT, militarypolice, firefighter, whatever it
was, nurses everybody wanted totalk to them.
They seemed to have what thefamily respected the most, and I
think that was probably thebiggest draw for me is I just
wanted my family to be proud ofme, like they to them.
They seemed to have what thefamily respected the most, and
that's I think that was probablythe biggest draw for me is I
just wanted my family to beproud of me like they were them?
Yeah, so for you, what was thedraw?

Speaker 2 (03:34):
Yeah, so I was that guy right, came from a family of
it.
So, uh, my dad, uh, he did 47years ultimately, uh to an
insurance department and thechief of the local PD, yeah,
yeah.
You know forever, you know, andunfortunately he passed away a
couple of months after heretired.
But, uh, that was all I knew,you know, and just growing up as
a kid, right, you weresurrounded.

(03:55):
You know, in the world backthen was a lot different, that
those guys never left eachother's side.
You know, he was at a sheriff'sdepartment and those deputies
would over and they were at ourhouse every day, you know, and
the weird thing is is, you know,one of my first memories as a
kid was my dad's partner gettingkilled and I, you know, I can
remember as a child, themshowing up at the house telling

(04:16):
him and my dad freaking out andlosing his mind, and and then
what happened after that?
And, uh, you know, it made animpression, you know, whether
good or bad, you could say, well, you would have thought that
would have taken you the otherway, but that camaraderie, right
, I mean, there was nothing mydad, uh, would not ask for, or
any of us family members oranybody would ask for, that they
would not do.

(04:36):
And uh, and I think that'sprobably more that draw for me,
you know, I saw the impact thathe made on the community and
across the state, and then thatcamaraderie amongst the officers
, you know, and for me that wasa huge draw.
You know, I was an athlete inhigh school and like teamwork
and like working as a team, andso I think ultimately that's

(04:57):
what pushed me into the life ofservice, as I say.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
Did you know that you were going to like?
Is that something you alwaysknew you were going to do?

Speaker 2 (05:04):
Yeah, yeah, I think realistically.
Yeah, my mom always said no,but uh, you know, it was that
same, right, it's just, it's nodifferent.
You know, I got two kids andyou know that's what my wife and
I always said.
You know, you're no way you'regoing to be in police work,
which they're not, which is goodwith now in the world today.
But uh, yeah, I was, yeah, Ijust was going to go that way.

Speaker 1 (05:25):
You know I went.
Did you know you was going tobe a trooper or did you?
You're like three letter agency.
How did you decide troopers?

Speaker 2 (05:31):
Yeah, you know, that's a funny thing is I just
assumed, you know, I'd be adeputy sheriff, for, like my dad
, and and, uh, I was at our readin Michigan we have regional
police academies and then astate trooper academy.
They're completely separate.
So I was actually in regionalpolice academy, had gotten a few
offers from some of the largeragencies, and then a state came
knocking and said, hey, whydon't you go through the process

(05:52):
?
And obviously I knew a fewtroopers growing up, but you
know it was, you know you wereamongst deputies, right?
And so, yeah, I talked to mydad about it and he was like,
yeah, he goes, I would preferyou go down that road.
A lot more opportunities, youknow that kind of thing.

Speaker 1 (06:11):
and, um, next thing, I knew I had, uh, about a
two-week break from college andoff the trooper school I went
and spent 24 weeks to get beatup.
So, okay, well, I remembergrowing up and michigan state
police were.
That was the creme de la cremelike growing up and I get it
bias.
I'm from michigan, but now thatyou know a worldly traveler and
have been in several states,lived in Montana, lived in Texas
, michigan, visited plenty ofplaces on training and all of

(06:34):
that I will still uphold thatMichigan State Police are
probably in the top five, if notthe top one, in my opinion, as
far as professional all-aroundtroopers like they do everything
.
I've seen them show up ondomestics up there in saginaw

(06:57):
where I was a cop, because theywere so short that they were
backing up local agencies tohelp out yeah, we still do that
right, and uh, um, uh, um,especially as you go North.

Speaker 2 (07:07):
You know Michigan's so diverse, as you know, being
from here where you're downstate, and you know it's a city,
freeways, all that kind of stuff.
And then you had eight, ninehours North and it was a whole
nother world once you crossedthe bridge.
And so we have to be verydiverse and uh, and like all
agencies, we go through ourpeaks and valleys, right,
Leadership problems, you know,and all that.

(07:28):
But you know, when it comesdown to it, you know the troop
around the road and I wasfortunate enough to travel all
over the country and all overCanada, training, doing the drug
stuff, helping out, and I meanwe're still up there.
I mean just the training wereceive is quality.
A lot of it's in-house.
We do all the testing for thevehicles in the country, so

(07:50):
there's no doubt we're still upthere in that top.
So there's a lot of goodagencies and especially with my
new world I guess I'm in I getto meet a lot of different
officers that I wouldn't havesaw before, like yourself.

Speaker 1 (08:06):
So there's a lot of good cops in this country.
A lot of cops right now.
My favorite ones to watch,though, are the georgia state
police.
Oh, they're still doing it, man, aren't they?

Speaker 2 (08:12):
oh it's crazy.
Yeah, they're still, uh,they're still operating in the
late 80s early 90s.
I love it oh, it's awesome it'sawesome to see arkansas is like
that too.
You know, florida's not veryhard mine.
I spent a lot of time inFlorida.
Now.
Man, there's some great guysdown there, some good troopers,
great local officers doing somegood things.

Speaker 1 (08:30):
Yeah, those guys are like a dog off leash man.
They've got no rules, they justcatch bad guys, that's all they
do.
Yeah, you know what?
They still got a lot of respect, right, respect, right.

Speaker 2 (08:44):
Yeah, you put on in georgia, you know, even amongst
the, the residents, you knowwhether you're downtown atlanta
or you're in cop county, youknow, or you you're upstate, you
know, playing some golf man,those troopers still get a lot
of respect down there.
So it's not like they're seenas a bunch of renegades, right,
just doing whatever they wantand like the famous video.
You see that guy pitting outthat truck and jumping up on the
yeah, man, I mean, everybody'sloving that right, because you
know you finally got a bunch ofcrime.

(09:06):
You know, and there's a goodway and a bad way to do it.
You know as much time that youand I have been doing this.
You know we've saw some badstuff.
We've saw cops do it the badway, but you know what Sometimes
good cops still got to do hardthings and that's what they're
doing down there.

Speaker 1 (09:29):
Man, and that's what they're doing down there.
Man, just some awesome stuffthough.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
Yeah, to my young officers out there, don't do
what you saw him do.
Don't jump on the hood, don'tdo, don't do that shit, please.

Speaker 1 (09:34):
Yeah, we've all did it, man, especially back in the
day, but uh, yeah, it worked outfor him.
It looked cool as hell.
That was a kodak moment forsure oh man, no doubt.

Speaker 2 (09:41):
But uh yeah, safety is paramount, right yeah, not
worth it yeah, eight out of tentimes that this is going to look
so pretty.
Yep exactly, I got some goodfriends down there in Georgia.
Man, they're awesome guys, theydo great work, they're command
guys.
You know good leaders, they dosome really good stuff.
It is tough down there rightwith everything they've got
going in Atlanta.
Yep, they got one in Atlanta.

(10:02):
Oh, for sure, for sure.

Speaker 1 (10:04):
Yeah, Atlanta is one of those, especially through
Cobb County.
In some of the connections thatI have out there they have some
really good progressivetechnology stuff going on to
help in the world of crimefighting.
So I'm really digging what theygot going on out there and I

(10:25):
can't wait to highlight thatstuff this year at the NRrt cca
conference.
But I got a question abouttrooper life.
Okay, so part of what we dohere is educate and anybody
that's interested in gettinginto police work.
They're like I don't know if Ishould be a sheriff, I don't
know if I should be a city cop,I don't know if I should go work
at a jail or be a trooper or goto a three-letter agency or any

(10:46):
of that.
Can you kind of explain what aMichigan state police officer is
?
Or a trooper?
That's kind of one of the statepolice guys.
They're always nicknamedtroopers.
So if you're wondering why it'snot in the name, that's just
what we nickname them, becausethey all wear that smoky the
bear hat.
So in that, sir, what is thedifference between you know what

(11:06):
does the state police do andwhat happens once you get hired
by those guys?

Speaker 2 (11:12):
Yeah, so it's a little different process.
In most states troopers havetheir own academy.
I know Arizona.
Sometimes they'll do a combinedbuilding academy but in the
state police we're separated inMichigan right off, so our
academy is completelyindependent.
So, as far as a trooper life,you know you go through the
training there.
You know we're getting verysimilar training at the regional

(11:32):
academy.
The only thing that's a littlebit more intense is the physical
side of it.
We have swimming involved asfar as rescue, just because we
don't know where you're going tobe posted.
We're surrounded, obviously, bythe Great Lakes, so we do
rescue swimming, cold water,immersion, stuff like that.
But yeah, once the trooper left, you know the big difference is
obviously I grew up in aSheriff's Department, family
right, so I was part of that.

(11:53):
I did the Marine Patrol, youknow, like a lot of cops, kids
do, you know, during high schooland college and stuff.
So the big difference is theterritory in which you cover,
you know, and as a trooper, youknow you're here today and there
could be a riot across thestate and I'm four hours away
and I'm spending the next sevendays over there.
Um, natural disasters, um, astroopers will get in, and I know

(12:15):
some locals are doing someawesome things too.
As far as being deployed tohurricanes, uh uh, north
carolina, when they had theflooding and all that, there was
a lot of local officers beingdeployed into that and that's
something as a trooper.
Um, there's a lot of mutual aidpacks, um uh, when you look at
like the RNC, the DNC obviouslyin the last few years have had

(12:36):
issues um the local state agencywherever it's being hosted.
So I think the past RNC maybewas in Milwaukee, so the
Wisconsin troopers can requestmutual aid, and so troopers from
Michigan went, and I thinktroopers from Ohio, and so
that's the big thing.
Right, it's just opening it up.
It's quite a big world.
There's a lot of great agencies.

(12:56):
Like yourself, you know whereyou're at your agency.
You have a lot of diversethings to do, but I could put I
mean it wasn't totally uncommonto put 600 miles on a patrol car
in a day, damn, yeah.
I mean the average was probablyin that 300 to 350, but if we
were really humping and we weremoving um, we could put a lot of
miles on Um and so that's thebig difference.

Speaker 1 (13:19):
Now, when you guys go to your academy, you're not
going home for the weekends, areyou?

Speaker 2 (13:24):
No, I know they do it a little bit different now.
You know, as they always say,the academy you came out of was
the last hard, rough academy,right?
So shout out to the 117.
We were the last hard academyfor the Michigan State Police.
But yeah, when I went throughwe would show up on Sunday
afternoon and anywhere from noonto 2 or three o'clock and you'd

(13:45):
get inspected to make sure allyour gear and everything was
good coming back and then you'dstart in and then maybe you'd go
home at seven or eight onFriday and maybe you'd go home
at one or two in the morning onSaturday, depending on how the
instructors were feeling thatday.

Speaker 1 (13:59):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (14:00):
You'd stay.
You'd stay there all week andlike we weren't allowed to drink
pop and not have candy and thatkind of stuff, you know.
So us young kids were Jones andyou know, when we get out there
on Friday, the first placethey're going 7-Eleven for a big
gulp, right.

Speaker 1 (14:12):
Right.

Speaker 2 (14:13):
Yeah.
So I know now they've loosenedit up a little bit, kind of
trying to make it a little bitmore like a college atmosphere
where I think they're lettingthem go home maybe one night out
of the week.
But that's the big differenceDorm life, right, you're?
Just living the dorm style yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
So for those that are wondering, like when you go to
a city police department I'venever heard of it, but you go
home every night.
I think the deputies forsheriff's offices do the same.
There may be some out there forsheriff's departments where you
actually have to bunk up at aspot, but I haven't heard of
that personally.
Uh, but the troopers, that's.

(14:51):
That's one of the majordifferences.
It's a lot like bootcamp, yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:55):
A hundred percent.

Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah, A lot like bootcamp.
So if you guys are gettinginterested in doing that, just
be ready for that lifestyle andit's longer.
Just be ready for thatlifestyle and it's longer.
Typically their academies arewhat?
Six and a half, eight months,somewhere in between.

Speaker 2 (15:15):
Depends.
I know like Texas has a quite along academy.
Um, ours was 24 weeks.
So I went through, uh, ourregional academy which is at
Grand Valley state university.
So I went through that academyfirst and then I had a two week
break and then went, jumpedright into the state police
academy.
So I was basically in a policeacademy from April till January.
And so I got to see both livesRight and so, like you said, uh,
we would get there maybe fiveor six in the morning, pt for
the first few hours, and grandValley's a great police academy

(15:38):
and there's a lot of greatregional academies, um so, we'd.
Pt, do the book work, uh, theshooting, do all that kind of
stuff.
But like you said, we get to gohome at six or seven at night
we go meet at B, dubs have acouple of beers, you know that
kind of thing, and um, that's,that's the big difference.
And and it is hard beingisolated like that especially, I
didn't have a family, but wehad military guys that were

(15:58):
squared away, marine guys, andthey bailed, they bounced out,
it just, you know they were over.
You know a lot of you talk toit's just, it's not that they
couldn't do it right, but theywere just like hey, I've been
there, I've done this, you knowI don't need to be yelled at
anymore, and you know, and theybounced out yeah, when I was an
instructor at our police academy, we had several, you know,

(16:19):
prior military.

Speaker 1 (16:20):
They'd get there and they just, I don't think they're
like you said.
It's not that they couldn't getthrough it, they just, man,
they they got out of it becausethey wanted a break and they
thought that they were justgoing to jump in and serve.
But it's not that they're goingat you, they just have to treat
everybody the same in theacademy.

(16:41):
You get caught up in it and ifyou just your mind's not ready
to deal with that, then that'swhat you get.
You get these guys that bounceout and I've had people like
yeah, I know some marines thatdropped out of our stuff.
Listen, friend, yeah, you'renot harder than a marine no
that's not.
That's not what that means.
You just you caught him at aspot in his life that he just

(17:02):
didn't want to deal with it.

Speaker 2 (17:04):
He'd already been through it, just like you said.
Yeah, he'd been through there,man, it wasn't for him.
And, like you said, I thinkthey thought, well, it was just
a natural progression.
Right, I was in the military,I'm going to go to the state,
please, just a naturalprogression.
And they're, like you know,every day yeah, I'm good, I'm
good, you know, and I get it.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
You, just you do you get fatigued of it and you think
you're going to get a break.
And you jumped out of theservice and you're going right
back into.
You know, your perception of itat the beginning is like I just
jumped right back into theservice.
I could have just stayed anddealt with it.
You know, I at least I knewwhat I was doing already- yeah,

(17:41):
you know what and what Iappreciated about the difference
.

Speaker 2 (17:43):
when you talk about the difference between the state
and the locals, um, like I said, growing I, I started tagging
evidence when I was eight yearsold, right.
So I, you know, I dideverything in the sheriff's
department.
I lived, lived there during thesummers and, uh, it was the
state police is a little bitmore regimented, right, like
you're used to with yourmilitary service, and thank you
for that.
Um, but that that's what Ireally liked.

(18:04):
I liked that command structure,I liked, you know, kind of
knowing who you had to report toand you know, I like that rank
and file kind of thing.
And that's a big differencebetween the state police.
You know, we do salute, we do,you know, do inspections and you
know all that kind of stuff.
So that is a big difference.
If you're into, you're into intothat, you know, and and you

(18:26):
need that kind of guidance inyour life.
It's a good direction.
But be honest with you.
You know, like yourself and alot of guys around this country,
there's some great cops inevery department, you know, and
it's just what suits you.
You know, your, your horizonsbroaden right, be able to fly a
helicopter, drive a boat, uh,work a dog, be in a bomb squad,
you know, over a whole state oryou know, do some awesome things

(18:54):
locally, you know.

Speaker 1 (18:54):
So, realistically, if somebody is going to join the
troop, this is one of the thingsI tell people.
I'm like, listen, if you, ifyour interest is to join the
troopers, but you want to go, doyou know boat patrol, you want
to go?
Do you know boat patrol?
You want to go.
Do you know whatever it is umoutside of being on the freeway
and dealing with stuff like that, like you gotta wait, you gotta
wait your turn.
You can't just jump, jump intothat stuff.

(19:16):
So can you tell peoplerealistically, like what that
process is?
Like you're a trooper, you hit,you get your car, you know
you're, you're on your own.
You already went through FTOand all that.
What is your next 10 years?
Like?

Speaker 2 (19:30):
yeah, so um, like everybody else in this country,
um, the Michigan State Policeare still struggling than
getting people right.
You know last, I think I heardwe're four or five hundred down,
you know somewhere?
in that neighborhood, yeah, andso we run a lot of the task
force up here, or at least apart of them.
So we talk about fugitive taskforce, narcotic as far as street
level, uh, drug and dealing umcanine bomb squad.

(19:54):
Um, we have a very good uhthat's called the es team,
emergency support team, uh SWATteam like which, uh, same as you
guys have helicopters, you knowwe have all.

Speaker 1 (20:03):
We have all that stuff and uh hey y'all, eric
levine, two cops, one donut.
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(20:26):
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(20:50):
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(21:12):
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(22:36):
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(22:58):
enforcement.

Speaker 2 (23:01):
The age in which they're doing some of that is
getting a little younger.
Sometimes good, sometimes bad.
I'm not going to say it's allbad because we got into the
lateral world like a lot oflocals did.
We didn't do that for a while.
We started doing it, good andbad.
So, as you get off the FTO, soyou're basically at the academy,

(23:23):
you're in training, so you'reat a year and a half two years.
Finally, like you said, you getyour break.
You're out on the road drivingaround your blue goose, all by
yourself.

Speaker 1 (23:31):
You got to explain that to people.

Speaker 2 (23:32):
Yeah, yeah.
So yeah, we got the blue gooseright.
It's a blue car recognizedanywhere in this country.
So we've got the little g redbulb on top and it's an LED one
now.
We used to like the oldaircraft ones because that made
noise and you could pound onyour ceiling to get the noise
out.
But yeah, we still got thestick on the front it says stop,

(23:54):
stay please.
You know, still into thetradition thing, which is
awesome.

Speaker 1 (23:57):
Can you do you remember, can you explain what
that tradition is like, whatthose were for?

Speaker 2 (24:07):
like what those were for.
Yeah, so, uh, I guess, as itwas told to me, um, that that
back in the day they didn'tobviously have all the LED
lights and all that good stuffand siren stuff we had, so they
would have a spotlight and thespotlight would be red and they
would point it at the hood andit was on, it says stop, and
then it says state police, andthen they would point at that
and that was their indication topull over.
Um, now, we would used to useit when we go on a complaint,

(24:27):
maybe go at night into adomestic or something like that.
We kill all our lights and wecould just turn that light on
and so if somebody looked outthey could see.
You know, if you went to analarm and maybe they were there,
but you could light that hoodup and go still go in dark, so
you were safe and you could lookout and see it said stop, state
police, and everybody knowsthat's our car and it just looks
cool, I don't care.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
Yeah, yeah, I don't still still the best state
police car that's out there.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
Oh it is, yeah, we always get these.
Yeah, these little turf warswith all these other uh state
police.
It's like georgia, they got apretty cool car.

Speaker 1 (24:59):
Uh, florida's got cool ones florida and georgia
both have cool I like thetwo-tone um is it?
Is it florida's?

Speaker 2 (25:06):
that is blue and like a gold color they have yeah,
they have that, and then theyhave a tan like a dark or tan,
yeah, yeah, yep yep, and then,of course, georgia's trying to
copy our blue, but uh, yes,that's what it was.

Speaker 1 (25:17):
It was georgia that had the blue.
I saw that not a fan texas dpsthey have white hoods and like
yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:26):
Everybody's got their own little signature right.
It's all right.
Ours is still the best, butyeah, it's cool.

Speaker 1 (25:30):
Yeah, yeah, somebody's got to be second.

Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yeah, somebody's got to be man, yeah, so yeah, we're
a little different, right,because we transport everybody
in our front seat, that and wedon't have cages or anything
like that.

Speaker 1 (25:42):
Really, I didn't even know that.

Speaker 2 (25:44):
Yeah, so yeah, it's actually a violation for us to
transport in a backseat and Ican tell you, over 25 and a half
years of transporting murdersuspects, domestics, drunks,
cartel members, you name it I'vetransported them all.
Riot, you know all of them.
I've never had a problem,really.
No, it's used to be that closeright, you're close to them and

(26:06):
you know.
You know, if I've ever hadanybody spit on me, to be honest
with you, I mean, obviously weknow those people are out there,
but, um, if I can remember afew times having one that you
just knew it was going to gothat way, maybe we had to use a
Welch to kind of tie him up alittle bit.
We'd ask, you know, our localbuddies to come over and we'd
just throw him in a cage andtransport him.

(26:27):
But, yeah, a little differentPeople always see us pulling.
They're like you transportingthe front seat.
It's like, yeah, he's rightthere, there's nothing he can do
, he's cuffed behind the seat.

Speaker 1 (26:34):
Our seat belts are locked in, you know, and so yeah
, a little different, okay, okay, so they're the cup behind
their back.
That does make a differenceyeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:44):
And then we like so we lock them in with a belt and
then we have uh little clipsthat go over top of the seat
belt thing so he can't undo theseat belt while he's okay, yeah,
okay yeah, and it's nice if yougotta take a nap during a long
shift and you can lay right backin that seat.
You know, I thought about thecage.
Yeah, absolutely not that thatever happened right, right, we
never do that.

Speaker 1 (27:06):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (27:06):
Interesting.

Speaker 1 (27:08):
All right.
So after you do your time andyou got all these specialized
units and stuff, what is theprocess like?
Is it just you're competingagainst everybody else that
wants to put in, and is it bestman, or is it seniority?

Speaker 2 (27:23):
No seniority comes into play, right, man?
Or is it seniority?
No seniority comes into play,right, and?
And a lot of it's just because,if you're best man you talk
about, uh, you know, becausethere's, there's always an
interview, typically, and so alot of the times the guys that
crush that interview are theguys who got the experience
right.
Yeah, so I mean, you got, yougot to have some of that in
there.
But in the same token, justbecause you only got two years

(27:43):
in doesn't mean you don't haveexperience.
That would come into play.
And then I'll speak just like inour drug interdiction world,
right, when we were, we wereinterviewing guys to bring them
into interdiction.
Well, yeah, a little bit'sabout being a cop, right, and a
little bit's about safety andthat kind of stuff, but a lot of
it's about being able to talkto somebody.
Got to be able to handleyourself all by yourself,
because these interdiction stopsare by yourself.

(28:04):
Even though we worked as a team, you know we had as many as 14
guys working in a 10, 15 milesquare area, but you still got
to be able to handle yourself.
So we could take somebody thatwas two or three years.
I'm like I would always tellthem man, I can make you into an
interdiction person.
I can help you become a goodcop.
I need somebody that knows howto talk to people.
Yeah, there's no somebody.
You know that.
That can.
That can not be confrontationalon every traffic stop, right,

(28:26):
we've seen them.
Right, we've seen those guyswere in and that's the cliche of
a trooper is always a robot,right?
Oh, you're the licenseregistration.
Here's your ticket.
Move on about your way.
You know, and, and that's not in, especially in your addiction
world, that's not what we want,and so so for us, it dealt with

(28:47):
some of that experience.
Um, if you're doing maybe theSWAT team, which is our ES team,
the dog, the helicopter, you,you know you have to have some
of that experience.
But, uh, each discipline, likethe canine, has a really hard
test where it's a big run, youknow, and then they, then they
do the physical part.
Es teams, same thing.
You know they do some workingout stuff.
Helicopter, you know maybe someexperience in the past, drones,

(29:08):
you know that kind of stuff.
So you would go through that.
So you, really, you know, backwhen I was younger, if you
didn't have five to 10 years in,don't even bother, you know,
because it you know it was somany people that wanted those
spots so I don't even bother.
But she fugitive spots and allthat, because they got to know
when four or five guys go in thedoor you're gonna be all handed
yourself gotcha because youdon't know what's gonna happen.

(29:29):
You know there's no differentin fort worth.
Right, you got to be able tohandle yourself, you know you.
You know I talk about like, uh,uh, going into these, uh, high
crime areas.
You know stuff like that.
You've got to be able to handleyourself and right.
And so, um, as far as being atrooper, having that experience,
you know that's, that's what welooked at, right, it's just,

(29:50):
hey, um, can you handle yourselfin the, in the area or the
discipline that you'reinterviewing for?
And so, um, I would say two,three.
You know a lot of these guys.
You want two, three, four yearson the road.
Right, if you're out handlingcomplaints, and you know this,
you handle two, three, fouryears on the road.
Right, if you're out handlingcomplaints, and you know this,
you handle two, three, fouryears worth of complaints.
You've, you've seen a lot,right.

Speaker 1 (30:08):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (30:09):
If your guy answers the radio, cause we get
dispatched just like everybodyelse.
We get a call just likeeverybody else and we get put in
a in a CAD system.
You know, we're just likeeverybody else.
And if you've been out theretwo, three, four years, you've
worked all the different shiftsbecause, as you know, nights is
a whole lot different days,right, yep, on days it was all
about fraud and I had my stuffstolen.
Or you know, I come home fromthe weekend, found my house

(30:29):
broken into right, a lot oflong-term investigations where
at night it was running the gunat domestics and home invasions
and you know shootings and thatkind of stuff.
We handle homicides just likeeverybody else.
And so you get two, three, fouryears in man you can handle
yourself in an interview, right,and that's kind of where
they're at now.
You know, and the differencenow is when I came in, you had

(30:50):
to, had to be 125 miles fromhome.
You couldn't be posted withinthat radius of 125 miles oh,
okay so they didn't want youanywhere near your local area
yeah, which was a good thing andI really liked it, just because
you don't have to deal withanybody.
You know, once you did I thinkit was three years, maybe five
Once you did three or five years, you could go back home.

Speaker 1 (31:10):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (31:11):
Once they thought you had yourself established, and
you know, some confidence.
Okay, and I really liked therule Brought me down here, and
what I liked about it is itallowed me to see other areas of
the state that maybe I neverwould have saw previously.
Now, you know, with the hiringissues that everybody has, plus,
you know, maybe getting alittle bit more older officers

(31:33):
that are already establishedwith families, you know, and you
just can't pick up and move,and so you have a lot of people
that now you can be posted rightin your hometown Right, never,
never leave.
You know, we're 25 years andnever see a different County.
Um, I don't think that's great,but uh, if it, if it works for
you and it works for your familyand you're, you know you're a

(31:53):
good asset to the department andthe community, then then good
for you.

Speaker 1 (31:57):
Can you do me a favor ?
Can you scoot over when?

Speaker 2 (32:00):
you were talking, you were starting to go out of
frame.

Speaker 1 (32:02):
And I was like all right, if he's going to be a
mover when he talks, we got toget him moved over.

Speaker 2 (32:05):
Yeah, here we go.
I got wheels on the chair.
That's what's killing me.

Speaker 1 (32:08):
Okay, no worries.
Yeah, I agree.
When you work in your city thatyou grew up in, it does put you
in a compromised position.
It doesn't have to manifest,but if you do run across people
that you grew up with, you knewit may put you in an unsafe

(32:29):
situation.
It may put you in a compromisedsituation where you, you know
give favoritism towardssomething you know we're
supposed to remain, you know,objective and straight across
the board.
So it doesn't do you a lot offavors to go work in the city
that you grew up in.
But I do see a benefit in itwhen it comes to the community

(32:49):
policing aspect is you'vealready got community ties.
You know the pulse of whereyou're at.
So for those that would makethe argument, I see both sides.

Speaker 2 (32:59):
I do, yeah, for sure, yeah, 100%.

Speaker 1 (33:02):
But me personally, having copped outside of my like
there's looking back now, Iwould never want to be a cop
where I grew up.
I just don't want to be in thatposition.

Speaker 2 (33:13):
Yeah, I know, and the opportunities that I had
because I came outside of thecounty, that's what I knew.
I knew the county where my dadworked.
I knew the county where welived, which was all the same
county.
I knew that sheriff'sdepartment.
I knew that life, I knew thoseguys and the fact that I was
able to get outside of that andsee, oh, there's a bigger world,

(33:33):
right, there's a lot of otherthings to do.
That's a great department, agood department to work for.
But you know, it was nice tosee other opportunities, meet
other people, and it's nodifferent than, uh, I tell
people now because they askabout my afterlife here, you
know, with my, my new job afterretirement, and then say, hey,
what's awesome is I spentbasically 20, 21 years, uh,

(33:54):
working in drug interdictionwith a whole lot of great people
in the michigan state police.

Speaker 1 (33:58):
How did you transfer to that?
So you were.
You were a trooper on the road,shagging calls, what there's?
There's all these differentthings that michigan state
police do.
What keyed in on you?
You were like I gotta do thisyeah, that wasn't one of them.

Speaker 2 (34:13):
Actually, when I when I started doing it, it wasn't
uh you know they always say itwas it's like destiny thing,
right, and uh, yeah, I canremember.
It's kind of a long story, it'sgot a lot of funny turns.
But I got sent on a prisonerpickup uh to grand rapids, which
is north of where I was posted.
I was posted, basically uh,west of kalamazoo town called
papa, on my way up freeways downto one lane because of

(34:36):
construction.
I'm coming up behind this car.
I'm not in my post area anymore, I'm in another post area and
just do what I was told.
And this car is over in theright lane, driving in the
closed off lane.
So you're like, oh great, he'sdrunk, right.
So I was like, well, I'll puthim on his shoulder and check,
see if he's drunk, and I get upthere and he's not.
Um, two guys coming out ofchicago they were lost, headed

(34:56):
to grand rapids and and theyjust kind of get that I had.
I had no idea what I was doing.
I was like a two-year trooper,maybe I might have been three
years.
I still had no idea what I wasdoing and I remember talking to
these guys just like man, that'sthe thing.
I just don't think that's right, you know it doesn't add up.
It doesn't.
So this old deputy pulls inbehind me, you know, and he
comes up basically asks thisyoung trooper who's lost.

(35:19):
You know what he's?
Because in Michigan our platessignify where we're from.
So the first two digits on ourplate signify what post you're
at, and so he could see my plate, knew I wasn't from there and
I'm like, hey, you know, Iexplained it to him and I was
like man, this isn't right.
You know, I didn't care who youwork for, you're a good cop,
you're a good cop man.
You know, I don't care, you'renot guy.

(35:49):
And and uh, he's like, yeah,let me go talk to him.
And he comes back.
He's like man, you're right,something's not right.
So anyway, long story short, wecall for canine a hundred and
some pounds of weed in a trunk.
Uh, back back then it was theold, uh, brick marijuana bale
days, you know, not like thehydro they see now.
And uh, so then, fast forward.
Uh, I'm kind of a prankster.
When I worked, the guy's phonerang that I had arrested for the
dope, and I answered it inSpanish.
And and this guy replies on theother end asking where his

(36:10):
stuff is.
So, fast forward.
A few hours later we knocked himoff trying to.
He was trying to buy his stufffrom us at a rest area.
So we got all the money, gotall the dope and I was like man,
this stuff's kind of cool.
And so then I just startedgoing to some trainings and I
got a pretty good opportunityfrom our commander, like hey,
nobody's really doing this.
You know, there was some guysthat were kind of individually

(36:31):
at the post doing it, doing somegood work at the post, get some
drugs and stuff.
You're like hey, why don't youguys get together and and and
see what you can do on 94, manIn 94 between Detroit, chicago?
At that time you know it was,uh, mid two thousands and man,
we were just ripping it and justgreat great stuff and uh.

(36:52):
So I just started going to a lotof trainings.
I was fortunate enough to getin with uh uh, federal motor
carrier safety administrationand the drug interdiction
assistance program at that time,and uh was able to come a
certified instructor and um, sogot in with some other great
companies to do some instructingand had some good opportunities
and yeah.
So then we built aninterdiction program for the

(37:13):
state, me and a couple of guys Iworked with.
We kind of you know, just likeyou would right, you know, just
like you're getting a new caninedog at your police, you know we
built a program, we wrote uppolicies for it.
We had really good commandstaff that that at that time
that was very pro policing andthey're like man, get after it.
And we were doing some goodwork and we were humping.
And next thing we knew we wentfrom just three or four of us

(37:35):
out there doing it to we werefull-time, had 14 guys and and
just going crazy, okay.
Yeah, we were seizing tons ofkilos and tons of money and it
was awesome.

Speaker 1 (37:46):
So now, in that, if you are going to get a rookie or
anybody out there on your sideof what interdiction is and
without giving away tradesecrets, obviously but how would
you explain it to the lay, thelayman on this?
What is interdiction?

(38:07):
What are you guys looking for?
How do you know that you'regetting somebody that's
trafficking stuff versus justsome dude like help other people
that have no, no knowledge ofthis world?

Speaker 2 (38:23):
yeah, it's a different world, different world
, man, and it's a skill set,honestly.
And so the way we always lookat it for interdiction is, if
you look in the drug world, theeasiest place to interdict the
drugs, to get bulk drugs, iswhen it's traveling between A
and B.
That's when they're mostvulnerable, right, and usually

(38:44):
that's in a freeway atmosphere,whether it's in a commercial
vehicle or a passenger car.
And so the world ofinterdiction really is just
about communicating with people,right, you sit out there, and
if you're a guy that thinks youknow what it looks like in the
car when it goes by, you're notgoing to get it Because either A
you're profiling something youshouldn't be profiling, whether
it's race or whatever, which isnever good and then you're

(39:05):
missing a whole lot because, youknow, one of the biggest cases
we had in Michigan was the guyafter the movie the Mule that
was basically Clint Eastwood'srole.
So that was here in Michigan,you know, and that guy was in
his 70s and he was traffickinghundreds of kilos a week for the
cartel.
And so if you thought you knewwhat you were looking for, that
guy drove right by you and wavedat you, and so interdiction is

(39:28):
just about sitting out there,right, you use the senses that
God gave you and that hairstands up on the back of your
head.
A car goes by, it does somecertain movements, maybe tries
to get away from you and slowsdown, breaks.
Something that's out of theordinary is what you're looking
for and that's what I alwaystell guys.
I'm training and I'm like, hey,when you, when you, when you
would borrow, uh, eric Levine'scar, you know, and he just said,

(39:50):
hey, can I borrow your 2020Mercedes and drive it to
California, he's probably goingto say, no, I'm like it's good
dude, great dude, but he'sprobably not going to let you do
that, you know.
And then when you say, oh well,his name's Eric I'm not really
sure what his last name is andyou're driving his brand new car
, cross country.
It's just common sense, right,but the interdiction is awesome,

(40:13):
just because that's what it is.
You're taking all this work thatyou do at a complaint.
When you're talking, you'reinterviewing somebody on a
criminal, sexual assault or aB&E or a larceny, you know, and
you're trying to get thatconfession.
You know, we're trying to dothat in 90 seconds, sitting on a
shoulder, the road, with carsbuzzing us at 70, 80, 90 miles
an hour, you know, and you'rejust focused in a little key

(40:34):
things that they would say, butyou're doing it in a really
relaxed manner.
You know, and that's always thething that judges like the most
when go to court.
They're like man.
You're not confrontational.
We're not, because we encounterso many people and obviously
not everybody's a drug dealer,not everybody's moving guns or
everybody's moving money.
We're just very casual in thequestions we ask.

(40:55):
But we're picking up on verysmall key things that they may
say, very small key things.
They say versus what the car isand obviously the license plate
reader world opened up.
You know a lot more as far asintelligence and being, all that
conflicting stories.
You know as far as where theplate was as opposed to where
they said they were.
You know that kind of stuff.
And so interdiction is awesome.

(41:17):
I mean it is.
It is truly addicting.
I mean I love a good bourbonbut man, interdiction will kill
that all day long, right?
I just uh, yeah, there wastimes that we would.
We would just go out there andset and say, hey, don't even pay
us.
I mean we, just we.
I mean we just wanted to hit itso hard, you know.

Speaker 1 (41:37):
Yeah, it's the ultimate hide and go seek baby.

Speaker 2 (41:39):
Oh a hundred percent, a hundred percent,

(42:02):
no-transcript.
Are you more comfortable inyour home or mine?
Well, you're probably morecomfortable in your own right.
So if I bring you in my home,it makes you uncomfortable, and
so that's the easiest place thatI can break you down, which was
our patrol car.
Right, that's where we lived,and so then, when these guys are
traversing from point A topoint B, that's the easiest

(42:23):
place to get them, because oncethey we would as troopers call
it topside Once you get intoDetroit topside with 100 keys of
coke, well, now you're in yourown world, that's where you're
comfortable.
And it's harder for me becausenow you're bringing me into your
world, and so that's always theeasiest.
And we would talk to command andall these states, you know,
when they're trying to forminterdiction teams.
Why do interdiction just likehey, you know you're trying to

(42:45):
do these reverse buys You'retrying to do, you know,
undercover operations in thoseguys' world when that stuff's
already hit the ground.
You know they could 50 keyscould hit the ground in Detroit
and be gone in 24 hours.
I can get it all inside thatPontiac 6,000, you know, back in
the day, driving up and downthe road right or the Bronco, or
you know, I can get it in oneshebang, and I guess that's what

(43:07):
drew me to it.
Right, we had a team concept,the camaraderie and, like you
said, the ultimate game of howyou can go seek man.
Yeah, yeah, you know, we werefortunate enough to knock off
some Sinaloa and commandleadership.
And, man, when you sit thereand talk to those guys, you're
not talking to a dummy.
These guys are very welleducated, they're corporate
style people.
There's no bullying on them andyou've got to be on top of your

(43:31):
game to stay in the same wayand like as them.
And so, yeah, there was nothingbetter than being able to take a
guy and have him tell you wherethe dope was and how much dope
was in there before you evenstart searching, just because of
the relationship that you builton the side of the road.
He knew you had him.
You know that kind of stuff.
And and there's still some guysaround this country doing some
awesome work.

(43:51):
Yeah, michigan's kind of gottenaway from the pro policing at
the time being, um, with the theworld the way it is, but
there's still some guys,especially down south.
Uh, these guys mississippi,john john's group down there and
jeremy up to the north and, man, they're still doing some
awesome work.
Um, uh, it's, uh, it's.
It's a world that, uh, I neverthought I would get into because

(44:13):
my dad was a detective.
But, man, I do not regret onesecond of it, so didn't get a
lot of sleep, worked all thetime, but you know what the heck
?

Speaker 1 (44:20):
so there's gonna be a lot of people that don't care
for troopers because theyconsider them road pirates.
Yeah, okay, now obviously youin the world of interdiction,
you are no longer what we wouldcall a road pirate necessarily.
However, when you guys weremaking these stops, let's say
you pull someone over, yoususpect you know, okay, this

(44:43):
kind of has the profile ofsomebody running drugs or
whatever human trafficking,whatever it is, pull it over.
It's not what you were lookingfor.
Obviously, you were looking fora traffic offense to pull them
over, whatever that is, you know, expired regs or failure to use
their turn signal or changinglanes, whatever.
You get it pulled over and yourealize it's not what you were

(45:04):
looking for.
Are you writing a ticket?

Speaker 2 (45:08):
Well, to the chagrin of our command, 99% of the time,
no, Okay, Because it was timeto move on.
You know, for us it was abouteducation, right?
And so we would always say, hey, there's a motor vehicle code
that's got hundreds and hundredsof pages in it.
For a reason it's so I can useit to find the and and.
So that was the thing.
It's just like every car youstop is not going to be the bad

(45:30):
guy, but they may do certainthings unbeknown to them that
are the same thing that we wouldsee from somebody two weeks ago
that had 10 kilos.

Speaker 1 (45:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:39):
You know, and and maybe it's a soccer mom, you
know, going to pick her kids upfrom school, or what college
visit, you know, whatever.
And so for us, and at the timewe had a really good command
that would just say we're abouteducating, right.
And if somebody blew by us at ahundred miles an hour, yeah, we
were putting them on hisshoulder, yeah, we were cutting
them a biscuit, right, okay,just because they deserved it,

(46:00):
because they were making thingsunsafe.
But for the most part we justsaid we'd educate.
You know, there's a lot of lawsout there that, as troops, that
would drive us crazy, likesomebody driving in the left
lane with nobody in the rightlane.
It's a violation here inMichigan and we stopped all the
time for that, and that was justbecause it drove us crazy.
But a lot of it is educationright.

Speaker 1 (46:21):
Well, they're the ones that end up causing traffic
backups.
It's hard to explain that topeople.
What will inevitably happen isyou're going to be in the left
lane, somebody's people like.
What will inevitably happen isyou're going to be in the left
lane.
Somebody's going to come upthat's traveling quicker than
you and you don't get over.
And then that's where it starts.
It's this big accordion effectand then inevitably accidents
can be caused from that yeah,you know what else it causes
road rage.

Speaker 2 (46:43):
And there, there you go.
We saw that toward the end ofmy career, right, you see, these
guys cut them off and then slamon their brakes and then now
somebody's going into the fenceor, uh, something like that, you
know.
So it's just a lot of thatlittle stuff.
But yeah, I mean, obviouslyeverybody has to work on how
their command is and, and sosome command pushes that stuff.
We were fortunate at the timeto have a really strong command

(47:04):
that believed in putting badguys in jail and knew that that
wasn't done through a trafficticket a lot of times, even
though, you know, sometimes youhad to.
But, um, yeah, a lot of timeswe didn't write tickets.

Speaker 1 (47:14):
So so I've made this argument before.
I'm like troopers.
In my experience it's a 50 50shot of on getting a ticket.
Yeah, the one that it's ahundred percent guaranteed, even
if it's their own mother, ismotor officers.
Oh, if they're on a motorcycleyou're screwed, you're not
getting out of that.

(47:34):
That's what they do.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
Yeah, that's it right .
I mean, you look at thosetraffic cars and even some
states that got highway patrol.
Man, that's what they do,that's what they're out there
for and they signed up for it.
And I used to tell my guys, youknow, they would be mad during,
like, seatbelt enforcement,right.
Or you know, driving whiletexting, you know something like
that I'm like hey, did you cashyour paycheck last week?

(47:55):
Yeah, they go out there writethat ticket.
The boss says you're writingtickets for seatbelt.
You know, would you stopcashing a paycheck?
Then holler at me and I'll tellyou you don't have to write
tickets anymore, Right.

Speaker 1 (48:04):
Right.

Speaker 2 (48:05):
Yeah, yeah.
We would just do trafficenforcement days where we would
focus on dangerous driving andall that, but other than that we
would educate because we wanted.
If you didn't have, we could bewrong, but if you didn't have
drugs or guns or money or bombsor kidnapping in that car, I
wanted you out of there as fastas I could get you out of there.

(48:25):
Writing a ticket wasn't thatway.

Speaker 1 (48:27):
Right, yeah, and that's kind of how I am in
patrol.
Where I'm at right now is wewe're hunting for guns and dope
and felons, like that's reallyit.
I mean, we're not interested inwriting, sitting there writing
tickets out or anything likethat, because we have such a
high profile area where I amthat and what I mean by high

(48:48):
profile is just so many people Imean thousands of people
walking around.
It's just a dangerous spot ifsomething were to hit the fan.
So we have to be on our toesall the time trying to prevent
that stuff, and the only way toprevent it is through proactive
foot patrol, proactive trafficstops.
But in that proactiveness, 99%of them are getting education.

(49:10):
Hey, you got to get that takencare of.
You got to do this.
You can't drive with no frontlicense plate.
Uh, your tent's too dark.
You need to get that stufffixed.
Like bro, you had to roll yourwindows down just to make that
turn.

Speaker 2 (49:21):
We watched you yeah, oh yeah, windows are so dark at
night you can't even see outyour own window yeah, yeah, no,
and a lot of it is just givingguys flexibility right and
allowing them to make thatdecision yeah, the ground
officer yeah 100, because if yougot somebody you stopped.
And let's say, you know, like wewould stop somebody for going
76 and a 70 right, going sixmiles an hour, to speed them,

(49:44):
and so it wasn't just because ofthat speed.
They did some other things thatwere indicative, you know,
potentially of of smuggling, andso we would stop them.
And and if you looked and yousaid, oh, they've been stopped
22 times, because we could seeif you were previously stopped,
you would stop 22 times forspeed.
Well, yeah, yeah, okay, now itmight be time to get catch one,

(50:05):
you know, yeah that kind ofstuff maybe.

Speaker 1 (50:07):
Maybe, because sometimes you find people, you
look at their history and you'relike this guy's hurting, he
doesn't have a job right now, ormaybe he just finally got a job
and all we're going to be doingis adding to his cycle of, you
know, relapsing and becominganother statistic because he
can't get out of the hole thathe already kind of dug.
So sometimes, when the storyyou know and you can tell us as

(50:30):
cops with experience, we see it.
I've even shown up on some ofmy guys's calls and I always
tell them like hey, I'm notgonna tell you how to run your
call, like yeah, but this iswhat I see.
So it's up to you.
You make whatever decision youwant.
I support it either way.
I'm just telling you what I'mlooking at right now is I see a
car full of constructionequipment and handyman tools and

(50:51):
a dude that looks like he'strying to do the right thing but
, he just he's so far behind.
He's got a lot, a lot to get outof this hole.
So is this ticket best foreverybody, or is it, you know?
Are we in the best interest ofthis guy?
Let's let's kind of weigh thosethings out.

Speaker 2 (51:06):
Oh, yeah, because you look at, you know what kind of
impact am I going to have, right, yeah, I mean, that's what
ultimately trying to do.
Right, you're trying tocorrective behavior on whether
it's a traffic stop or domesticor whatever.
Right, you're trying to correctsome behavior, yeah, and so
then you sat there and, like yousaid, you were like, okay, so
this guy in the last five yearsago, the previous five years, he
got stopped 12 times.
In the last two, three years hehas nothing record but, like

(51:29):
you said, he's still reapingbenefits for the mad, expired,
suspended license and all thatkind of stuff.
You know he's still got, youknow, traffic warrants.
He's trying to make up thathe's trying to do at $12 an hour
, you know, with three kids now,and and so okay Is, is your,
what are you doing here?
Is that, is that going tocorrect his behavior?
Because he rolled that stopsign, because he's had a bad day
or whatever and we all have hadbad days.

(51:50):
You know, just and I don't carewho you are as a police officer
You've had a bad day where youmade a traffic stop and you got
into it with somebody on theside of the road when they just
said one thing and it triggeredyou and it wasn't anything that
they meant.
And I did it and I can remembera couple of times you stop them
.
They say one thing, and man, I'dbe like you don't talk to a
trooper like that, and I jumpall over them.
Then I'd sit back in my car andbe like what am I doing?

(52:11):
Yeah, you know, they didn'tmean that and just because I'm
having a bad day, I'm gonna, I'mgonna put this to them, you
know, and I just say you knowwhat.
You're getting warned and getout of here, because this was,
this was my bad.
I came off wrong on this one.
Yeah, because I'm trying tocorrect your behavior, me.
All it is is going to make youyell back at me and then
nobody's going to win on thisone.

Speaker 1 (52:30):
Yeah, yeah, and I tell people, I'm like it's not
necessarily our job as cops tofix you.
I'm not trying to fix you, I'mtrying to.
I'm recognizing patterns andseeing what history is and all
this stuff.
I'm putting all those factorstogether and trying to make a
decision.
If a ticket's not in the bestinterest of you, necessarily,

(52:51):
but is that the right thing here?
And if I get emotional about it, I'm already thinking with the
wrong part of my brain.
Like you know, I should bethinking objective and logically
, which is all prefrontal cortexand if I'm not thinking with
that part of my brain, thatmeans I'm thinking emotionally.
And if I'm thinking emotionallyI'm in the wrong spot.
So, like you, if I catch myselfthinking like that, I back off

(53:14):
immediately.
I'm like no, I'm not thinkingin the right part of my brain
right now.
And I I mean that in a literalsense.
You are literally not thinkingwith the right part of your
brain, you're thinking with theemotional side.
Can't let ourselves get caughtup in it.
That's the number one killer ofan officer's career is the ego,

(53:35):
and I don't mean necessarilythat your ego's taken over.
That typically is the rootcause.
We start to get emotionalbecause we have unmet
expectations.
We're so used to 99% of peoplejust going with the program All
right, here's what we got, thisis what we're doing, and you get
that one person that they'rehaving a bad day and they're not
trained like we're trained, sothey don't act the way we expect

(53:57):
them to act, and thatimmediately triggers.
We go from logical andobjective to emotional and ego.

Speaker 2 (54:03):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
You know, and even honestly,you know you look at troopers,
right, everybody was like oh,you know you will respect me,
I'm a trooper, right, I'm.
I'm looking good, head to toe.
I got my hat shine, my bootsare signed.
You know I'm looking good, youwill respect me.
And so, the moment somebodydidn't, you're like whoa, all
right, it's game on.
It's like well, is it?
You know?
Are are they just that, that,that small percentage of the

(54:25):
society that is just respectingthe police, that needs to be
dealt with and not ignored?
Are they that?
Or are they just having a badday, kind of like you had one
yesterday?
Yeah, you know, you need to.
Like you say you need to slowdown, figure out which, which,
why, in the road we're goinghere, because you go left and
you shouldn't have went left.
It's going to get ugly and,like you said, it may end your
career.

Speaker 1 (54:44):
Yeah, you see.

Speaker 2 (54:45):
I mean obviously all over TikTok and everything else
now, where you see that theychose to go left and no longer
police officers.

Speaker 1 (54:54):
I've seen this video several times, but somebody sent
it again to me today and it'sthis officer that he's getting
into it with a young.
He may be a teenager, maybejust a young adult, 18 to 21
years old, something like thatbut the kid's just mouthing off
to him at in front of this houseand the officer literally says
like no gun, no badge, none ofthat.

(55:15):
Let's throw hands like any.
He tries to fight the kid andI'm like and they're they were
basically asking me my opinionof it and I'm like that's an ego
issue, like this guy has nobusiness in law enforcement.
And if you want to know what Iwould have done if that was my
guy, you're fired, you're gone,you're not.

(55:37):
I would hope you never get to bea cop again, because we have no
room for that type of behaviorin law enforcement.
One it tells me you're not.
You're not of the mindset thatneeds to be in this career field
to begin with.
That's not fixable, that's notsomething I can train out of you
.
Be in this career field tobegin with, that's not fixable,
that's not something I can trainout of you.
That's.
It's an inherent, deep-seatedissue within yourself that you
thought it was a good idea tothrow hands.
Now I get it.
The movies have portrayed, youknow, end of watch and all that

(56:00):
shit where they, you know ittakes all this stuff off and
fight like, okay, maybe back inthe day, maybe that was an 80s
thing and accepted by the public, but it isn't anymore.
The job has evolved.
We've gotten smarter, better,better technology, all this
stuff.
We should be the higherstandard.
So no, we shouldn't be doingthat dumb shit out there.

Speaker 2 (56:21):
And it doesn't look as cool as the movies yeah, it
definitely does not.
No I mean, you got some of that, you know you got.
Uh, there's always the famousvideo I think it's Connecticut.
That trooper just goes intothat guy, you're fucked.
Oh yeah, man, we're all likethis dude is awesome.

Speaker 1 (56:38):
Is it in the original ?

Speaker 2 (56:39):
dispensary container.

Speaker 1 (56:41):
Yeah, I love it.

Speaker 2 (56:43):
Yeah, yeah, the dude.
For us, especially as trooperson the road, we're like man.
We want to say that on everystop Some of these guys you look
at like older guys.
It's like what propelled you toget to that point?
Did your command beat you downso much that you're at that
point where you're likesomebody's getting it?

(57:03):
I can't yell internal.

Speaker 1 (57:05):
I'm the oldest kid right.

Speaker 2 (57:09):
Somebody's getting it .
I saw good friends that havecritical incidents or something
like that come back to work tooearly and man, this never worked
out for them right.
Yeah, and that's just it,no-transcript.

(57:39):
And then have that conversationwith them afterward Like, hey,
because you know, right, youknow your guys, when you're out,
you know who who has thatpersonality for who does it.
And I think we see that lackingin command and leadership
nowadays.
Whether it's a colonel, alieutenant colonel or a sergeant
, you know down to recognizethat, hey, man, that's not that

(58:00):
guy, you know that's not, he'snot like that.
So where's he starting to slide?
Let's grab him before he goesover there.
Or, like you said, hey, he isthat guy and he needs to go
because he's about to get us twoor three lawsuits.
You know that we can't affordor worse, get one of the guys
hurt because we get in thisbrawl that we never even were
meant to be in.
You know, we saw that too,right.

Speaker 1 (58:21):
And there's and there's another factor for
troopers.
Um, when we talk about stresslevels and things like that, the
number one killer of cops, asfar as I've been told and I
think it's still true is trafficaccidents.
So when we've got people pulledover on the side of the road,
those lights are like magnetsfor DUIs.
They tend to run into ourvehicles and stuff like that.

(58:44):
So when people don't understandwhy it seems like officers may
be a little bit more on edgethan normal, well, traffic stops
are one of those.
And when you are a trooper andyou see just how much death and
destruction traffic accidentscause and here you are on the
side of the freeway, vulnerableoutside of your cage that

(59:09):
somebody says something thatdelays that process.
And now you've just caused meto be out here even longer.
So I think there's asubconsciousness to us that our
stress level is like peakingalready, cause we, we know, even
if we're not thinking about it,we know like this is the most
dangerous spot I can be in.
It's more dangerous than thedomestic, it's more dangerous

(59:29):
than anything else that we do inthis career, other than maybe
heart attacks.
But yeah, for you fat cops outthere, you know.
And so when we are out there onthese traffic stops and
somebody wants to, well, I'monly cracking the window.
This far I know my rights.

(59:50):
You can't tell me to roll thewindow down and try the
sovereign citizen stuff and allthat, and the cop gets an
attitude.
It isn't just it's not just ego.
There's other factors involved.
There is the stress of knowingyou are in the most dangerous
position and now, because youdon't want to do what you agreed
to do when you accepted alicense assuming you have one

(01:00:18):
when you accepted a statelicense is to follow the lawful
orders of a police officer andyou not rolling your window down
and you trying to play theselittle stupid games so you can
record and try to get an officeroff his rocker.
These things you got toconsider, like you are
prolonging one of the mostdangerous things that cops can
do and that is why they tend toget attitudes when things don't

(01:00:39):
move smooth and quickly.
They want to be out of therejust as quickly as you oh, yeah,
for sure, even just the littlestuff.

Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
Right when you stop somebody on the interstate and
you'd light them up in a niceopen flat area where, because
you're concerned about everybody, yeah, you're trying to get
this guy maybe that was going 85.
And so you're trying to dealwith him, but you're concerned
about the people going by youtoo, because it's not their
problem that you can't followthe traffic law.
So I got to put you on hisshoulder.
But then you're like no, I'mjust going to keep driving

(01:01:14):
because I'm going to find a safearea.

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
We'd always get that.
Well, I thought this was saferto pull right up alongside the
guardrail underneath an overpass.

Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
Yeah, on the other side of the bridge a hill.
Yeah, yeah, oh great, thanksbro.
You know, like, and then.
So now you got to get out andyou got to deal with them,
because you get on your mic andthey can't hear you because of
the freeway traffic, and now youhear the brakes locking up
behind you.
You know, in 94 we had a lot of18 wheelers and you're like,
well, here it comes.
Yep, you know, just justbecause I stopped this guy for
going to 85, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:01:34):
But yep, just go limp , yeah, just go loose.

Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
Try not to anticipate it yeah, yeah, I know then,
because then you get complacentright then.
That's the other side of it isthat we dealt with it so much
that I just stand on a whiteline, somebody going by at 80,
well, that was close, you justgo back to you know doing your
business Right.
And so you see now, likecrossing the street with a buddy
or a wife, I just start walkingon this street, oh my.

(01:01:59):
God that car's close.
I might try standing on afreeway when they're going 80.
I'm like this's snowing.
You know I'm up here, michiganand and uh, that's a whole
another world dealing withcrashes.
You know we'd be out 12 to 16hours.
Um, one of the things that ourinterdiction team would do

(01:02:22):
during the winter is we woulddeal with large, uh pileups.
Um, I think we worked 25, 30wrecks over 25 cars, with one of
them being 193 cars and uh andso all day long.

Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
What's that I said?
It's 77 here, by the way is it?

Speaker 2 (01:02:40):
oh yeah, I think it might hit 38 today.
Sorry, I didn't mean tointerrupt.
Yeah, like two inches of snowthis morning, it's killing me,
but uh, yeah, so you know.
Then you're, you're clenchedonto a steering wheel all day
long and you're constantly onedge all day long, and then all
it takes is one person to saysomething wrong and you've been
doing that 12 hours and you justsnap on them.

(01:03:00):
You know for now.
You know they do, maybe somestupid little fender bender, you
know where it's like.
Hey, it happens, but you'resnapped on them because you've
been dealing with wrecks all dayand idiots driving too fast and
you know you're always going toget that one person.

Speaker 1 (01:03:12):
there are a couple people that are like, well, you
knew what you signed up for?
Yeah, we do, but we're humanand we're susceptible, just like
anybody else, to stress and thethings that happen, and guess
what, we don't have the outs, um, to just say, okay, I'm not
going to come in tomorrowbecause I feel, stressed out, we
may get a couple of those, butwe're not going to get enough of

(01:03:33):
those.

Speaker 2 (01:03:34):
Yeah Well, here in Michigan when it snows too hard
that they close businesses.
Oh yeah, that's when we have togo to work.

Speaker 1 (01:03:39):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:03:41):
Right Schools get closed.

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):
That's when I have to go to work and you guys need to
understand that it isn't likeTexas, where I'm at, and a light
dusting will close everythingIn Michigan.
If they close due to snow, itis hellacious.
It is the old-school AlbertaClipper.
Do you remember ever hearing?

Speaker 2 (01:03:59):
those.
Oh yeah, the old-school AlbertaClipper.
I think we had that a coupleweeks ago.
We still get those, yeah Well.

Speaker 1 (01:04:07):
I haven't heard that term since I moved out of
michigan, so I try to explain topeople.
I'm like you ever heard ofalberta clipper, like that's
that?

Speaker 2 (01:04:13):
oh man, that's a blizzard you don't want to be in
uh, when it's january, february, and that wind switch is on
northwest, you're like here itcomes.
Yeah, obviously we got lakemichigan right, so I'm on the
west side of michigan.
So when everybody else acrossthe state gets two inches, we
get 12, 14, 16, 20, yeah, and uh, yeah, so you know, it's just
all that right, like you said.

(01:04:33):
You're like oh yeah, you signedup for it, did I?
Did I sign up for you to drivetoo fast and cause crashes on
the freeway and me have to worryabout them?
I don't think I did.

Speaker 1 (01:04:41):
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I didn't do that, you know I
signed up because I want to help, yeah, but at the same time,
like that, it's just such a weakargument.
Well, you signed up for it, youknew you could be shot at?
Like yeah, I knew I could beshot, you could be shot at.
Like it's just things that canhappen.
That doesn't mean it's right.

Speaker 2 (01:04:59):
Yeah, it doesn't mean I have to tolerate it.
It doesn't mean I got to beokay with it.
It doesn't mean I got to go towork thinking, hey, I hope
today's the day I get shot atyeah, yeah, absolutely yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:09):
So, man, okay, all right, sir.
So I think we've.
I'm trying to think of someother questions before I want to
get down the rabbit hole ofinterdiction, where it led to um
and where it's at today.
Some of the things I want toeducate the public in is so, if
they're getting pulled out overon the freeway, what do you
recommend that they do?

(01:05:29):
Because there's, there's alwaysgoing to be, the people that
they turn their hazards on.
They're like I'm going to findmy own perfect spot.
Or you know, as you as atrooper, if you're going to
recommend to people okay, yougot caught, you were speeding,
or your expired registration, orwhatever, we're on the freeway,
what do you suggest to them?

Speaker 2 (01:05:48):
Yeah, I mean like to your question earlier, well, I'm
going to find a safe spot.
Well, I wouldn't have turned onmy lights if it wasn't safe.
First off, second off, I'm theguy that's out here every day,
so I know where it's safe andyou don't.
You know, so you know, I alwaystell, you, know, family members
and all that.
Even my kids, right, they're alittle bit older now in college.
They're older now in college,so they're driving across

(01:06:08):
multiple states and it's justlike hey, just act, natural the
lights come on.
It sucks.
Maybe you didn't think you weredoing anything.
We've all been speeding, youand I included, where we didn't
realize we were.
It happens, we understand it.
Or you touch the fog line, hey,they're doing an OWI detail and

(01:06:28):
you touch the fog line threetimes, they're going to check
you OW detail and you touch thefog line three times, they're
gonna check you owi stands foroh, operating while intoxicated
okay, not everybody knows ourlingo dwi owi.

Speaker 1 (01:06:38):
There's a whole bunch of them I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):
Half you guys is lingo.
When I go down south, it seemslike everybody's got going.
So right, yeah, but no, youjust act natural.
Right, hey, the lights come on.
Maybe you don't know whythey're on.
Maybe you do pull over theshoulder.
Get over as far as you can,which side uh well that's one
that drives me nuts yeah, yeah,you're always supposed to go to

(01:07:00):
the right, but to the righttimes.
Yep, well, there are times whereyou'll have to go to the left
maybe.
Uh, based on traffic patterns.
If you're, if we stop you, whatwould you call the hammer lane,
the far left lane, and it'sthree lanes to get over to the
right, we're probably expectingyou to go left.
Unfortunately, um, unless wewill indicate you a lot of times
, you'll see troopers, you'llsee the car start to go right
before you, which is theindication that he wants you to

(01:07:22):
go right as well.
And then, with his lights on,you know, there was, oh, there
were other cars there.
Well, with your lights on,everybody's going to get out of
the way.
So it you know, I wouldn't takeyou over there just to have you
get hit Cause.
Then I got to work the wreck.

Speaker 1 (01:07:32):
So I wouldn't do that , right yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:07:34):
Right, yeah, but then it's just that natural, like
you said, just that little stuff, right, and a lot of troopers
hopefully you'll see them go upthe pasture side or whoever you
know.
Like you said, put the windowdown, you know, and maybe you
have your documentation, maybeyou don't.

(01:07:55):
I mean, they don't expect youto have it ready.
So just you know, just sitthere with your hands on the
steering wheel and you know, ifyou don't maybe trust the police
or don't care for policebecause of past experience or
something like that, we don'texpect you to be like, yes, sir,
no sir, you know all that kindof stuff.

(01:08:15):
Um, that's what I always preachwith my kids because it's this
respectful thing and I, I don'tcare what profession you're in,
you know you do deserve somerespect.
But, um, and then from there,just and I always tell people
that you know, let's say he says, hey, I stopped you for going
89 and a 70, and you're likethere's no way I was going 89.
And when you do it on the sideof the interstate or roadway or
in Fort Worth, downtown is notthe place to have an argument on

(01:08:37):
whether you agree with whatthat traffic stop was for, and
so all that is is just gonna,like you said, we don't wanna be
there any longer than you.
Wanna be First off, the secondoff.
I know what could happen.
The longer I sit there and allit is going to make me more mad,
the longer I have to sit there.
And if you're going to sit thereand argue with me and just say
I'm not handing you my stuffbecause I didn't think I was

(01:08:58):
going that far, I always tellpeople hey, that is not the
place to argue.
You want to argue it out?
We can go to court.
Everybody has the right to goto court, no matter what you did
, and you got a right to go seeeither a magistrate or a judge,
depending on you know what levelyou want to do.
We can hash it out there.
You can yell at me all you wantthere the side of this roadway,
when I believed beyond areasonable doubt or at least

(01:09:20):
probable cause to believe thatyou did this infraction.
To put you on the shoulderwhether you agree with that or
not is not the place to havethat and and and.
Yeah, I, I have been wrong.
There's no question.
There's a few times that I waswrong on the traffic stop
whether I read the wrong digit,or I saw the wrong tab, or you
know, whatever the infractionwas, there was no question I was

(01:09:40):
wrong, and so the side of thefreeway is not the place to have
that that argument, you know.
And I always tell people hey,just just take it, just just do
what you're told.
If you write your ticket, justyou know, then from there you
know, you can argue that, um,now, yeah, but don't get all
crazy, you know, on the side ofthe road and it's that is not

(01:10:00):
the place to do it so whenyou're doing traffic enforcement
and you're running radar, lidar, you're doing speed enforcement
.

Speaker 1 (01:10:08):
So you're out there, you're on the freeway.
Let's say there's three, fourlanes of traffic.
You got cars.
How do you know that you havethe right car and you're reading
the right speed, or there's abunch of cars out there?

Speaker 2 (01:10:21):
So when we get trained on radar up here, one of
the things you have to do firstis you have to be able to go
out on the freeway and you'rewith your instructor and you
have to be able to look at avehicle and tell within five
miles an hour of how fast it'sgoing.
So visually you're kind oflooking at a car and so
obviously I pretty muchprimarily work traffic for my 25
and a half years, so kind ofget good at reading speed and so

(01:10:43):
the instructor would know thespeed and then you would say 77,
78.
And then they'd say no, he'sgoing 85, you know, and so they
would set there and then justvisually you kind of judge that
distance, right that the carstravel, and then all that kind
of stuff.
Um, so usually that's whathappens.
Is you know whether we'restationary or we're moving?
We're, I can look at a car, ortroopers, or even the local guys

(01:11:06):
too, they look at a car and yousay, okay, that car looks like
it's going faster than everybodyelse.
Common sense, because it'spassing everybody else, right?
And then you're saying, okay,he's the lead car, you hit him
with the radar, you hit him witha LIDAR or whatever, and now
you get your speed, and you'vealready kind of got a speed in
your head.
Maybe you say, all right, helooks like he's going about 90,

(01:11:27):
87, yep, that's him.
And then make the turn um, sothen obviously you have a pack
of cars.
It's not like.
So what's happening on thatradar typically on the ones at
least we had here in the statepolice is it's grabbing the
fastest car.
Um, so it'll show you a slowspeed, but it'll also show you
the fastest speed, which istypically the person in front,

(01:11:48):
um, of a pack maybe of traffic.
And so then it'll show you thefollowing sequential cars after
that okay, and so we, we canusually see, and then a laser or
lidar uh, what we're using isthat's actually sending a beam
into your windshield and so itis only seeing one vehicle.
And so if we're sitting thereon the freeway and you see the
passenger side windows down andyou see that, you know gun-like

(01:12:11):
object, you know that littlesquare brick object pointing out
the window, he's actuallysending a beam into that
windshield and he's getting thateach individual car so lidar
would be arguably more accurateand less likely for confusion
yeah, less like.
Yeah, yeah, the accuracy and theradar and the light are going
to be the same.
But you could if, if you're notpaying attention right to, to

(01:12:35):
those pre-speed stuff thatyou're trying to do before
you're engaging that radar, ifyou're not paying attention to
that, yeah, there could be sothe the point I'm getting to is
that if you are going to fightin court, you have a better
chance of arguing.

Speaker 1 (01:12:47):
If you got a good defense, you have a better
chance of arguing.
If you've got a good defense,you have a better chance of
arguing against a radar versus aLIDAR?

Speaker 2 (01:12:53):
Oh, yeah, yeah, he's going to tell you how many feet
you were away Everything,because you know typically
reading about 1,000 to 1,500feet, he's going to write down
1,237 feet at 82 miles an hour.
Yeah, just beg for mercy atthat point.

Speaker 1 (01:13:09):
Yeah, right.

Speaker 2 (01:13:09):
Yeah, miles an hour, yeah, just beg for mercy at that
point.

Speaker 1 (01:13:11):
Yeah, right, yeah, and I love you know I I tell
people all the time I'm alwaysrooting for the underdog.
Sometimes it's just fun so whenyou go, to court and you fight a
ticket like I've.
You know, I go to court too andI'll see him in there fighting
there and I'm like, oh man, Ihope this guy gets it like he's.
He got a good argument up therelike you know why he's doing
what he did, or whatever it is,and I'll give people the tips
and tricks like listen.

(01:13:31):
One thing to argue is was theirequipment calibrated prior to?

Speaker 2 (01:13:35):
shift that's.
That's the easy one prior toand prior after and after yep.

Speaker 1 (01:13:40):
So that's one way and they will use a tuning fork and
the tuning fork's got to bematched up with their equipment
and certified and all of thosedifferent things 21st century.

Speaker 2 (01:13:50):
Now, bro, you just hit test and it runs it through
all four, you know?
Oh really, yeah, so ours gettuned and forked when they come
out and they get put in the car,uh-huh and then after that it's
just test button.
It runs it through a hole.
You'll see a whole cycle gothrough and then on your daily
it's got a low spot check.
I tested it all.
And then after your shift youcheck, I tested it.
And and then after your shiftyou check, I tested it.

Speaker 1 (01:14:09):
Well, I don't know any of that, because I do real
police work and I don't botherroad pirating.
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2 (01:14:17):
It's not ingrained in you to have to do every single
day.

Speaker 1 (01:14:20):
No, not at all.
We don't even have radarlighters in the cars.

Speaker 2 (01:14:24):
Oh really.

Speaker 1 (01:14:26):
Nope, you got to go check that shit out if that's
what you're wanting to do.
I'm nope, you got to go checkthat shit out.

Speaker 2 (01:14:33):
If that's what you're wanting to do, like my guys,
I'm like we got too many callsholding you ain't sitting out
there running it's.
Now they're running radar.
Yeah, yeah, well, as trooperswe just say, hey, we're on our
way like uh.
So at the post, you know theytake complaints and we were
separate.
We didn't take complaints as uhinterdiction guys.
But you know, when they leavethe post know they run that
radar all the way to thecomplaint.
And so you know they may stopcars on the way to the complaint
.
That's why you'll see a lot oftimes we would call it topside,

(01:14:55):
or in a city You'll see thestate police on a stop downtown
where he's probably in betweencomplaints and, you know, saw
something and he's going to putyou on the shoulder that way.

Speaker 1 (01:15:03):
Interesting.
Okay, yeah, I like if.
I can help people beat ticketsto like man.
Let's, let's help everybody.

Speaker 2 (01:15:10):
Yeah, let's help everybody in this.
Yeah, we don't get paid basedon the ticket.
So if you if you lose it?
You just get mad for about anhour and then move on about your
day Shoot.

Speaker 1 (01:15:20):
I don't get mad at all, I'm just like, oh well, is
what it is.
Yeah, I tried, you know.
And sometimes you screw up.
Sometimes you're like, ah, okay, fair enough.
And, like I said, I've had somepeople make some arguments and
I'm like what the like?
One?
One time I think I did havewhen I first started being a cop

(01:15:42):
, and they, they fought theticket and uh, I got asked the
question what color was the carcar?
And I was like it was red.
And they're like what color wasthe car behind it?
And I was like I don't know.
Well, they had camera footagefrom like 7-Eleven or a bank or
something.
They went and got it and whenthey passed by there was like

(01:16:03):
two red cars and they're likewhich car is my client's?
And I'm like I don't know, uh,the first one I?
I?
I didn't know how to like, youknow, I was a new car, I didn't
know how to argue it and I waslike it's the first one,
obviously, and it wasn't, it wasthe second one.
But I didn't write that in myreport.

(01:16:25):
I don't remember, you know,because when you fight the
ticket, it happened so long ago.
So, yeah, I got spanked, like Ilost because I didn't know what
I was doing and how to argueand I knew I had the right car.
It was absolutely the right car.

Speaker 2 (01:16:39):
Yeah, but education right.
Sometimes you get educated too.

Speaker 1 (01:16:42):
My inexperience and you know that defense attorney
helped me become a better cop.
You win some, you lose some,but as long as you're learning
and getting better as you go.
And then some people are goingto look at that and they're like
, well, you shouldn't pull overif you weren't sure.
I was sure the day of.
I was not sure six months laterwhen we had to go to court.

(01:17:03):
Finally, over this and you know, try them.

Speaker 2 (01:17:04):
Well, I remember being on stops where they'd be
like, oh, you know that othercar, and I'm like who was it?

Speaker 1 (01:17:09):
yeah, you got me doubting myself.
Yeah, I'm like ah like ah.

Speaker 2 (01:17:13):
They're just messing with me now.
Yep, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:17:16):
Yep, absolutely.
Oh man, I got eye crustiesgoing on here.
How long have I had those onthere?
Yeah it happens.
I know, yeah, so but all right,sir, let's move on.
I want to get to what I callphase three, the perspective and
future of policing.
And and future of policing.
And you did interdiction for solong you got into mostly dope

(01:17:37):
and money, I'm assuming, but youalso did you touch on human
trafficking, because that is abig thing these days.

Speaker 2 (01:17:43):
Yeah, we did for sure .
Yeah, there was times where,especially between Detroit and
Chicago, you'd see maybe kidsthat were put into the
prostitution world out of theircontrol or against their will,
maybe they ran away and got intoa bad environment or something
like that.
Yeah, we'd see the humansmuggling, obviously

(01:18:04):
international type, you know,whether it was from Mexico or
China or Canada, you know any ofthose areas there just because
of where we're located.
So we'd see that.
We'd see runaways and semis andand and the Romeo and Juliet
kind of mindset, right, two kidsrun away in a car and dang on a
missing person.

(01:18:24):
And so, yeah, we, we did deal alot in that.
You know we'd see fraud, youknow somebody stealing your
credit card and buying a wholebunch of stuff at Home Depot.
We, you know we your creditcard and buying a whole bunch of
stuff at home depot.
We, you know we'd stop thosepeople.
So, um, there was a lot ofdifferent things that we did on
the freeway that wasn't, likeyou're saying, just drugs, gun
and money.

Speaker 1 (01:18:43):
You know, yeah, a lot of other things yep, and it's
important for people tounderstand that, that that
disdain traffic stops, I'm, I'mnot.
I don't disdain them, I I like,it's just not my style policing
that you know on, especially onthe freeway, and that is a
trooper's you know backyardversus you know you make the

(01:19:04):
argument that, like, listen,traffic stops lead to all of
these things that we're outthere dealing with, and you can
get the skill set to start torecognize patterns and
indicators of these types ofcrimes.
So you're not just guessing,you're not guessing.
So to speak.
There's, there's education andthere's reason.

Speaker 2 (01:19:25):
Oh no, yeah yeah, no, there's a skill set, for sure,
and you know, when you look atpolicing, you know there's a lot
of different components toserve in the community, right,
and, and you have to haveinvestigators, you have to have
people, you know, like yourselfin your unit, you know, that are
shagging, these calls that arehumping, they got calls backed
up, um, I know you do a lot ofwork in um, where you're in the

(01:19:49):
stockyards, you know, and youhave to deal with, uh, out of
towners, right, maybe getcarried away, drinking too much,
know that kind of stuff.
And then you start looking atinner city crime or violent
crime.
You're looking at the guns andall that.
Well, those guns had to getthere, right, how did they get
there?
Drugs got in the community.
A lot of the shootings andstuff are over drugs.
You know that's just the factof reality and it doesn't matter

(01:20:11):
what race it is, everybody, youknow everybody's doing it, yeah
, and so there's a lot ofcomponents in that that you got
to put them all together.
And so you see, in some agencieswhere it's just like, well, we
don't, you know, basically dopro policing in Mona, we're just
do reactive policing.
Well, then you're seeing thisviolence kind of expand.
You know, because the propolicing going after it, getting

(01:20:33):
after disrupting, you know,these networks, whether it's the
network in the city or thenetwork on the freeway going
from California to Detroit, thatis a component of having to
kind of get this violence andthis crime under control.
You know, when you take thatcomponent out within, you know

(01:20:53):
you're left to run free.
You know, like, unfortunately,look on that 94 right now and
it's just a wide, open autobahnof drugs and guns and money.
They've gotten away from the propolicing style at the moment
and it's a.
It's a component, you know, andI've seen it in other cities
around here to where they hadreal strong pro policing and all
of a sudden they backed off.

(01:21:13):
And you could see it, when thepro-policing backed off, the
violence would start going up.
And that was just part of acomponent in there, with
community servicing being partof that component, everybody
having a role in that, and so,yeah, it's definitely a
different art form right In thatinterdiction side.

(01:21:34):
But I've been able to see a lotjust because our unit was sent
into more of the violent crimestuff.
So, you know we had expertise inworking drugs on surface street
stuff and guns and we'd spent afair amount of time in some
violent areas.
So I was able to.
I was very fortunate I was ableto see a lot Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:21:55):
Now through your career.
Obviously you know you did 26years, so you were back in the
old school where your only realpiece of equipment were a radio,
your radar, lidar if they hadit, and just good old-fashioned
instincts.
Then the internet came out andour training got better and we

(01:22:16):
started to learn a little bitabout habits and stuff that you
know without having to go to aconference, so to speak, and
opening up network channels totalk to other departments and
what they're dealing with andthings of that nature.
Social media started becoming athing.
Then we started learning thatcriminals really love to brag
about what they did on.
Social media started becoming athing.
Then we started learning thatcriminals really love to brag

(01:22:36):
about what they did on socialmedia.
So that was another way tostart checking into people.
And then we get to today's time.
We've got drones, we've gotLPRs, we've got AI, we've got
facial recognition.
We've got all of thesedifferent things to help and
every state's a little differentwhat they allow.
But out of all of these thingsthat have been out there, what

(01:23:01):
in interdiction?
What have been some of the bestnew tools that you guys have
had, and why?

Speaker 2 (01:23:35):
Yeah, I definitely think license plate readers
played a very key role ininterdiction good and bad.
Because, like you said back inthe day, you use your
instincts't have the basic skillset to be an officer.
Right now it's well, if myinternet is not working, my
modem is down in my patrol car.
The world is over, I can'tpolice, no more, I can't do this
, no more.
Right.
And then you know, and then Iwould have my guys call me and
say, hey, the license platereader's down, okay.
Well, it's not working.
Okay, well, can you get itfixed?
Yeah, when I have time, go outthere and do your job.

(01:23:57):
You know there was a time wherewe didn't have it, you know, and
lo and behold, we used toarrest people without it, you
know.
So now agreed, it's all greatstuff, there's no question about
it.
But you know, it's got, it'sgood and it's bad, and, and so
it definitely license platereaders.
Uh, played a big role.
There was some small technologystuff that were like handheld
x-ray scanners.

Speaker 1 (01:24:20):
Really, yeah, I haven't heard of those.

Speaker 2 (01:24:22):
Yeah, yeah, we got turned on to those.
There's a couple of companiesout there that are doing some
great guys.
Old school interdiction guysDominguez and Tamez and these
guys that were rock stars helpeda lot of us become better
interdiction guys, but they kindof introduced us into that
world.
So you know they're a littlebit.
You would put them in abackseat of your patrol car,

(01:24:42):
pull them out and then theycould scan doors so you could
see packages and doors.
Okay, scan the back of seats.

Speaker 1 (01:24:49):
Bed of trucks, stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (01:24:51):
Yeah, yeah, like yeah , you could just put it in the
bed and scan it and then youknow it's looking for organic
material.
So if it was kilos, it wouldshow you squares.
I mean, you would actually seethe squares in the back of a
seat okay.

Speaker 1 (01:25:04):
Did you act like the dentist does and put like a, a
big no?

Speaker 2 (01:25:09):
no, I think they say you get more uh, radiation
flying in a plane than you didfrom this thing.
Okay, fair enough.
It was very focal, like if youwere on the receiving end of it
and your buddy was trying tomess with you.

Speaker 1 (01:25:18):
Maybe you wouldn't have kids anymore.
But yeah, I was gonna saypointed at his junk, keep
talking.

Speaker 2 (01:25:23):
Yeah, you're not gonna have kids I can guarantee
some of the yahoo's just workfor me.
Got pictures of those guys, butuh, yeah technology like that.
But yeah, like you said, theinternet was a big one, right,
being able to communicate acrossthe country.

Speaker 1 (01:25:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:25:38):
You know we would all go to conferences, we would do
these in-class trainings, youknow, which I loved, because I
got to meet officers from Alaskaand Mexico, and you know
Florida and everywhere inbetween.
But the advent of sometechnology there did help, you
know, and they always say well,you were tracking this person.
When you talk about licenseplate readers had nothing to do
with that, right, it had to dowith you doing conflicting

(01:26:00):
stories, you know, trying to geta basis, you know, for I don't
know you, I got 90 seconds tofigure out on the side of the
freeway.
You know, whether you're doinggood or bad.
Um, throw me a bone, right?
So you know this license platereader.
If you say, hey, I'm comingfrom California, but it showed
you in Florida yesterday, well,you know, it's probably there's
a reason you're lying, right?
Because if you're, you know, ifyou and me were on vacation and

(01:26:22):
we were going to go catch aball game down in Florida, we
would say we're headed toFlorida to catch a ball game.
We're not trying to hideanything, yeah, and so?
So the advent of thattechnology obviously was big and
you know now it's skyrocketing,right?
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:26:38):
And I try to tell people because I'm a proponent
of LPRs and there's the argument, you know it's, it's you know
big brother watching everythingyou do.
One of the important things Ilike to point out, as far as
I've been told, what I'velearned about LPRs is they're
not looking in your vehicles,they're not trying to invade

(01:26:59):
your privacy and it's basicallya force multiplier for cops that
are hurting for bodies anyway,and they're on public roadways
where anybody and their momcould be looking and taking
pictures of your plates anyway.
So the argument that I make isme, as a cop, I can run your

(01:27:19):
plates at any time I want.
While I'm working, that's whatwe do.
When I've got downtime, or if Isee a car that's standing out,
I'm like gosh, I'm done.
Okay, let me look.
Boom, oh, weird.
Now I got warrant hits on yourcar like I it.
That's what an lpr is doing.
Just it's an unblinking, youknow static cop just standing

(01:27:40):
there checking plates.
They're not trying to mess withanybody's plate.
That doesn't have nothing wrong, like no, it's not writing you
a ticket.
It's not doing any of thosethings, it not?
It is looking for people thatare already of interest.

Speaker 2 (01:27:55):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
And I, uh, I helped start theuh state's license plate reader
program here for Michigan andkind of expand it.
And uh, I remember I met withsome senators and and, uh, house
guys had the same same concernsthat the general public did.
I mean, you know, there'snothing wrong with that.
And I remember telling him, youknow, because one of them
wasn't exactly friendly towardslaw enforcement, and he's like,

(01:28:17):
well, I don't want you knowingwhen I go to the bar or when I
go get a haircut.
And I said there's, you know, amillion people that drive
around the state hitting mylicense plate readers every day.
I'm like, a, I would never wantto look through all that data
because I don't have time forthat.
And B, I don't really care.
I care if you go to the bar andshoot somebody and they decide
to go home.

(01:28:37):
Well then, now I'm probablygoing to look for your license
plate, yeah, and so I mean,that's the indicative mindset.
It's just like, well, they're abig brother watching.
What are we watching?
Like you said, you're drivingon a public roadway and it's

(01:29:00):
really, if you are a good,upstanding citizen, you haven't
done anything wrong and you'rejust traversing, you know, as
far as law enforcement.
Law enforcement doesn't careright, law enforcement cares
when a crime has been involved,or your kid's been kidnapped, or
you know you have a missingelderly grandpa or something
like that.
That's when they start caring.
And so, like you said, they'renot.
They're not pulling data out ofa car.
You know they're not.
We've heard everything from thereading cell phones.
They get all the contacts asthey drive by them.

(01:29:20):
Um, I mean, maybe thattechnology exists somewhere.
I'm not aware of it.
Um, and I can assure you policeagencies don't have it.
Um, and then, like you said,it's just getting you know we
would open source rightinformation.
It's just reading the licenseplate as it goes by.

Speaker 1 (01:29:36):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I'm, you know, and I think it'simportant for guys like me that
are still doing the job.
Like, one of the things that Iabsolutely try to make sure is
there isn't any overstep,Because I still, like you know,
if there's somebody will abuseit, like that's a somebody's

(01:29:59):
going to use it to where's mygirlfriend at?
I'm trying to, and they'regoing to get caught, and that's
the thing with these systemsthat I want to give the public
assurance on is that everythingis tracked If I log in and I try
to figure out something.
All of that is tracked.
That information is logged.

Speaker 2 (01:30:16):
Oh, 100% yeah, Audit trails.
You know it's no different thanrunning somebody's license
right?
There's a CJIS audit trailwithin whatever system you use.

Speaker 1 (01:30:27):
You know yeah, because it has to be compliant
with CJIS and all of that.
So that's one of the thingsthat I encourage people to look
at it in the way of.
It helps keep cops more honest,Because if they do try to abuse
it, they're caught and it's afreaking.
You know what do they call it?
Not a red flag, it's a smokinggun.

Speaker 2 (01:30:48):
Smoking gun right.

Speaker 1 (01:30:48):
Smoking gun yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:30:50):
I don't care what profession you're in, right,
nobody has a perfect professionwhere everybody in the
profession is angels, right?
There's no question that eitherA people get into the
profession for the wrong reason,to do the wrong things, which
happens in every profession or,b something happened while they
were there that turned them andthey started doing the wrong

(01:31:11):
things.
You know whether they weretrying to track their girlfriend
or you know whatever andthere's no doubt that has the
potential to be taken advantageof.
But and I always tell thesepolice agencies that I meet with
now or before, when I wasstarting it up it's just like
hey, as long as you have theright policies in place and you

(01:31:32):
follow the policies and youenforce the policy yeah okay.
It's when you don't follow thepolicy and you don't enforce it
that you'll you'll start havingthese, these issues where
they're using the system not forwhat it's meant to be used for
yep, yeah, I agree, yeah, butthey've been man, they have been
game changers.

Speaker 1 (01:31:51):
Um, I had done an interview for a local news
station at one point and I toldthem I said to me license plate
readers for law enforcement islike when we learned about
fingerprinting, when we learnedabout DNA checking that is how
big of an impact it has had inpolicing.

(01:32:11):
Impact it has had in policing,yeah, and so it's vitally
important that we keep goodchecks and balances so also cops
don't lose the ability to havea good law enforcement tool.
And I think, I think you know,because it technically it's
still in its infancy when itcomes to law enforcement.

Speaker 2 (01:32:28):
I mean yeah, what's it?

Speaker 1 (01:32:29):
yeah, yeah, on the side of law enforcement,
policing yeah, when you think ofhow long policing has been
around and in in the tactics andtools and stuff that we've had
available, you know tasers havebeen around longer than LPRs.
You know pepper spray has beenalong longer than LPRs, and look
at where we're at.
We still haven't got thoseperfected.

Speaker 2 (01:32:48):
You know tasers still fail a lot, Usually user error,
not the taser itself but youknow, your pepper, your oc spray
, that fails yeah, yeah, gunsfail right, yeah, issues with
guns and yeah, I look how longin car cameras have been around
yeah, basically what kicked thatoff was rodney king yeah so,

(01:33:11):
and you have police theenvironments that still don't
have those they still don't havebody cameras they still don't
have body cameras, right?

Speaker 1 (01:33:16):
let's say 90 to 95 percent.
I think that was the lateststatistic I heard.

Speaker 2 (01:33:20):
Have body cameras now yeah, okay, it's gotten a lot
higher so they're still.

Speaker 1 (01:33:25):
You know, they're still 10.
That's a large amount ofdepartments that don't have them
yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:33:31):
So you look at technology like we're talking
about radars, you don't have amanual patrol car and how long
are those things been around,right?
You know, yeah, right.
So I mean, just because youknow that technology is there
doesn't mean everybody has a andthen b, like you said.
It's still in infancy, you know, yeah, still very early in its
stages, and there's a lot ofagencies that are still trying

(01:33:51):
to work that out, so trying tofigure out how that plays a role
in what they're doing.
Maybe it's a small PD, maybeit's a large PD.
They're still trying to figurethat out.

Speaker 1 (01:34:00):
My mouth and talking on the camera.
I don't know what happenedthere, but anyway.
Um so, as you're starting tosee the emergence of lprs and
getting them implemented andthings like that, um what, how

(01:34:24):
were you guys using them?

Speaker 2 (01:34:26):
uh.
So for us is, uh, we'd make astop and and and talk to maybe
you right, hey, where you comefrom, coming from fort worth
Worth.
I went to California and thencame to Michigan.
Oh, okay, well, we had, uh, atthe time we had created a
program within Michigan that wehad on my, on our freeways, at
the entrances and exits of thestate, so we knew who was coming
and going, for obvious reasons,and so we could just compare

(01:34:48):
that other areas obviously hadlicense plate readers too.
Um, if we had access to those,we could compare, so we could
check your license plate and say, you know, we would have other
indications.
It wouldn't be just, hey,you're just driving down the
road and we stopped you forspeed and we're going to check
it.
We would have other things.
We were looking at othersuspicions.
We would articulate that wewould like, hey, we have

(01:35:10):
suspicions to believe thatcriminal activity is afoot, so
we're going to do some furtherinvestigations.
One of those furtherinvestigations would be an
investigation into your licenseplate.
So we type your license platein and you say, yeah, I'm coming
from Fort Worth, I went toCalifornia and now I'm headed to
Detroit.
And we see, you went from Miamito New York, to Chicago, then
now you're headed to Detroit.

(01:35:30):
So then we got to figure outwell, okay, he's lying, why is
he lying?
So that was just a way toconflict a statement or conflict
travel that somebody would have, and so that's a lot of times
how we would use them.
Then obviously we connect thesystem, so we'd have license
plate, so the reader runs theplate through either the NCIC,

(01:35:53):
which is the National Databasefor Stolen Vehicles, stolen
Plates, that kind of stuff, orin Michigan we have one called
LEAN, which is Law EnforcementInformation Network, which is
our local one.
Each state typically has theirown.
It runs the license plateagainst that, so that if you
stole the car in Chicago and itwas entered in NCIC, that our
camera would trigger and say,okay, this car is stolen, we'd

(01:36:17):
see it, we'd run it, verify, yep, it's stolen, and then we put
you on the shoulder and andfigure out whether it's
legitimate or not yeah, it'simportant to do rookies.

Speaker 1 (01:36:27):
Don't just rely on your lpr hits as a stolen
vehicle.
You have to verify through yourncic to make sure that it's
stolen verify through ncic,verify through dispatch, maybe
one more time, just for yes, forshits and giggles, you know yes
yeah, yeah we, we do.
We start getting too reliant onall of these technologies that

(01:36:48):
we have, and that's one of theproblems with license plate
readers is you get a little lazyand you're like, oh, stolen car
yeah you didn't verify.
And the next, a little lazy, andyou're like oh, stolen car,
yeah, you didn't verify.
And the next thing, you knowyou, you're pulling over the
owner of the car, because theircar was recovered and you didn't
do the right research.

Speaker 2 (01:37:05):
Yeah, or it's a, it's a rental and it's been rerented
.

Speaker 1 (01:37:08):
Yeah.
Yeah, they just yeah, there wasjust one not too long ago made
national news or these guys weresitting outside of a gas
station or in a restaurant orsomething and cops roll up
because they somebody had runthe plate and the plate was
shown stolen.
Now the car was still stolen,showing stolen, yeah.

(01:37:29):
So the cops did their job, theyverified, yeah, this car stolen
.
The thing was is it was neverremoved from the system, so
somebody dropped the ball.
And typically, how that happens, if you're listening, you're
like, how does that happen?
Well, sometimes people recovertheir own vehicle and they don't
report it.
So it ends up getting stolen bya family member or something

(01:37:49):
like that, and they're like oh,frank took my car and I went to
uncle frank's house and got mycar back and I didn't call the
cops and tell them, so theydidn't take, the cops couldn't
take it out of the system.
Then you get cops that recoverthe car and they forget to let
we call them id where we're at,but we don't let our pic or id

(01:38:11):
know.
Hey, we recovered this car,take it out of the system, we we
forget that step.
Or the third one, is you dotell them and then they drop the
ball and they forget to take itout because they've got five
other things lined up thatthey're doing.
Major cities like where I'mlocated, like that's definitely
something that's possible.
I haven't seen it happen yet,but they do.

(01:38:32):
They got 10 things stacked upwith all these officers asking
them to do stuff, so they'rewriting it down.
They're like, okay, I gotta getto this one, get to this one.
And then they're supposed tolet you know yeah, we got it out
of the system and it neverhappened.

Speaker 2 (01:38:42):
You get busy and you forget, so yeah, which that's
just see it in the rental world,right, because they're flipping
those rentals so fast yeah, yousee it in dfw right, there's
hardly any cars there.
They're having to roll thosethings out, and so they got it
towed back in and it was in goodworking order.
They clean it up, gas it up andit's going right back out and
they're not checking their duediligence to see if it was

(01:39:03):
removed.
And now you're just the nextguy.
It's not your fault.

Speaker 1 (01:39:08):
Yeah, I think this one was through Turo, which is
and we've rented a coupleturtles actually pretty cool.
They're not a spot of ours, butI did it in alaska, yeah yeah,
we did it in florida, I think itwas, and it was great, great
car, it was very easy.
They met us at the airport,which was amazing.
I was like this is this isgreat so it's different, yeah it

(01:39:29):
is you know, and um no, anyway.
So okay, now you guys, you'reyou're working with the lpr
stuff.
When you worked with the x-raystuff, was there any other like
cool tools and stuff like thatthat y'all were operating?

Speaker 2 (01:39:44):
yeah, I know, you know a lot of time.
You know we would carry a fullgamma in our car, um, so all my
guys had full tool kits.
I mean we could take seats outon inside the road, we could
take tires off, bumpers off,really, um, yeah, the radio was
out, you know special tools,remove radios?
um, we would.
We do a lot of training.
We'd go to a lot of uh areaslike texas, uh, arkansas,

(01:40:06):
georgia, that were arizona, thatthese guys just kill it in
interdiction.
They've been doing a long timewell-established programs,
mississippi, and we'd go downthere and we'd work with them
and they would teach us how todo it and we'd kind of bring
that knowledge back to the north.
And I worked with Border Patrola lot.
You know they have a specialunit down there at the border.
I don't know if they still haveit with everything going on,

(01:40:31):
but they would do what they callsecondary searches of the car.
Once searches of the car, oncethey seized the car, found drugs
, this car would go to asecondary location.
It was set in an impound lotand then these guys would go
research it again.
So these guys knew every littlespot.
So we would go work with themand so, yeah, they would carry
full toolkits, drills, whateverthey needed to operate off.
I tried to keep technology to aminimum right Not to overwhelm

(01:40:54):
yourself.
You know there's you got somuch going on in your head and a
lot of times you miss the easyand simple clues when you're
trying to take in too muchinformation okay now with all of
that and you know we alwaystend to be fine-tuning our craft
but you'll hit a peak whereyou're like, damn, I'm killing

(01:41:16):
it out here.

Speaker 1 (01:41:17):
Now, when you were at your peak and you were killing
it, what were some of thebiggest cases?
Was there any cool stories thatyou got?

Speaker 2 (01:41:27):
Yeah, we had a lot of awesome cases.
I can remember one partner, hewas working, stops a car coming
eastbound, coming out of Chicago.
You know, it's a normal stop.
A young female she gets out ofthe car.
Pretty little female.
She was a school teacher inDetroit and he was a very
seasoned veteran, very good athis job, and so he's talking to

(01:41:50):
her and she's just, you know,gives him this story and he's
just like you know, and his bigthing, looking back on it was
quite funny.
She had one little duffel bagset in the middle of the
backseat and the story she gavehe's like I remember, walking up
, he goes, something's not right.
I go what he goes?
She only has one duffel bag inthere.
I go, yeah, he goes, it's agirl.

Speaker 1 (01:42:09):
He goes.

Speaker 2 (01:42:10):
How many girls do you know?
Only take one duffel baganywhere, like she had, went
from Detroit to Chicago for acouple of days.
He's like there's no way she'sonly going to have one duffel
bag.
You know that kind of stuff,those little stuff you know that
we looked at.
But anyways, fast forward.
We find in the rear of her carit's all trapped out.
She had 25 keys of coke, acouple of keys of heroin, some

(01:42:30):
money.
Then we were able to go deliverthat in Detroit, take down some
fellows over there.
One of them ended up beinglinked into the Black Mafia
family, ended up into a hugecase.
They did a couple of shows onit and so, yeah, it was a really
fun case and we had some wherewe had a million, 1.5 million,

(01:42:52):
$2 million stops that just brokeinto these awesome, awesome
cases.
So, yeah, it was just becauseof where we were located.
You know, I remember one timeone of the guys on the unit
stops this guy and we ended upfinding a compartment in a Jeep
has, you know, 50, 60 grand.
It wasn't a lot, but the guywas a upper leadership for the

(01:43:12):
Sinaloa cartel and so theyactually had he'd been hiding
under a different identity anduh, he's.
He basically got ripped at hisdrug house and they stole his
fake passport and so he was leftwith his true identity and he,
so we stop him.
He has no identity.
Well, we had fingerprintreaders that we would carry on

(01:43:33):
our car, the mobile one, likerapid ID and stuff.
Yeah, they're just a littleBluetooth one, so I'm going to
never forget he's like man.
I knew I was screwed when I sawyou guys walk up with that
thing and I remember he's likeyou, goddamn troopers and your
technology.
And so, yeah, we ran his prints.
He comes back with a DEAwarrant and so we.
So we spent a lot of timetalking with him just trying to
learn the game.
And this guy had actually metwith Chapo Guzman back when

(01:43:55):
Chapo was on the loose, and sothat's how he was.
So it was cool, you know, tolearn from him.
And I remember I drove him tothe federal holding facility and
we were just talking abouttraps in cars and you know this
and that, and so, yeah, we had alot of awesome cases like that,
just because of where we arelocated, right between Detroit
and Chicago.

Speaker 1 (01:44:13):
Yeah, now when they're getting their, their
dope and their money and allthat stuff, obviously anything
cartels coming out of Mexicousually.
But, um, were you guys gettinganything coming through Canada a
lot or going for sure, werethey coming into the States or
were they trying to leave?

Speaker 2 (01:44:29):
Uh, you had both.
So, uh, it's kind of swung alittle bit.
You're still.
You'll get cocaine coming downfrom Canada.
Uh, it's.
It is somewhat rare, um, butwhat we would see come out of
Canada a lot, was a lot ofecstasy, so a lot of MDMA and
then a lot of back.

Speaker 1 (01:44:45):
Canadians like to party, huh.

Speaker 2 (01:44:47):
Oh yeah, yeah.
Well, you know a lot of itcomes in.
Uh, they had pill presses, sothey're, they're, so they're
bringing the powder in orwhatever.
And then in British Columbia,in Ontario, they'll have these
giant pill presses where they'remaking millions of XTC pills
and they're shipping them intothe United States.
And with our relationship withthe border between Detroit port,

(01:45:07):
here on at Sault Ste Marie, wewould get a lot of influx of
that because of the commercialtraffic.
So a lot of it would come in onsemis and whatever um not salt
saint mary guys not.
Yeah, definitely not salt.
No, not salt, yep, um, but yeah, so we get a lot of that um.
Back before marijuana was legalum in the united states, we'd
see a lot of hydro, um or uh,commercial grown marijuana that

(01:45:32):
would come down in through andthey would trade it.
You know, back then it was five, six thousand a pound because
it wasn't quite as prevalent asit is now.
They would trade it for cocaine.
So you would see the reverse goback.
So, yeah, there's a fair amountof drugs, especially in through
Michigan, that come down in.
And then the other side youwould see trucking companies or

(01:45:53):
passenger cars that would comein from canada, go to california
, go to arizona, go to texas,pick up cocaine, uh, pick up
heroin, fentanyl, and then theywould be taking it back to
canada.
So we would stop them goingback in.
Um, that's awesome, yeah, wewould see.
I think we had 65 kilos onetime that was sitting on the
bunk of a semi um.
So yeah, we would see variousthings from the Canadian side.

(01:46:16):
A lot of Russian mafiainfluence up there, so we saw a
little bit of that.

Speaker 1 (01:46:21):
Really yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:46:22):
Albanian.
Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, it's acool world because you know a
criminal is a criminal, right,and so you got to see a lot of
different sides.
Yeah, everybody talks aboutMexican cartel, but what about
the Hells Angels?
You know?
What about the Russian mafia?
What about the Albanians?
Yeah, you know you would seeall these different facets.
So I always tell people when Itrain and I'm like, if you think

(01:46:44):
that a certain race iscommitting a crime, a, that's
not right, but B, you are wayover your head in your
profession.
Yeah, because that's just notthe case, right, yep.

Speaker 1 (01:46:59):
Yeah, I mean they've got the money to get people that
you can buy and not fit.
You know they're trying to lookas would it be conspicuous as
possible.

Speaker 2 (01:47:12):
Yeah just trying to blend in.

Speaker 1 (01:47:13):
Yeah, just trying to blend.

Speaker 2 (01:47:14):
Into the yeah, yeah.
So, and that was the big thingbecause people always say and,
like you said, you're trying toeducate the public.
Well, why'd you stop me?
You know what'd you stop me?

Speaker 1 (01:47:23):
for I don't look like a drug dealer, what's a drug
dealer look like yeah, tell mewhat they look like.

Speaker 2 (01:47:27):
Yeah, they're trying to look like you so I, you know
I'm sorry that.
You know you were committingthese violations and I, you know
, end up, you know you were nota drug dealer no good for you.
But they're trying to look likeyou.
So you know they're drivingduring the day, they're driving
during rush hour, you know thatkind of stuff.
So you know that's what wewould see, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:48:00):
And you know you'll get the people.
Well, drugs are nonviolentoffenses, da dah, dah, dah dah.
Well, and what you're talkingabout, the interdiction side,
like that's what causes theviolence, the black market, and
gets these cartels and organizedcrime syndicates going, and
that is that is what the basisof a lot of violence stems from.
So when you can cut off, youknow that type of traffic you're
, you're you're making asignificant dent in what they're
able to do and where they'reable to cause violence.

Speaker 2 (01:48:19):
Yeah, for sure, Because, like I said, we would
see guns, we would see cellphones wrapped in cellophane in
hidden compartments becausethey're trying to get
information, you know, movedfrom one cartel to the next, and
so they just wrap a cell phoneup and send it.
Yeah, you know all the tricksand trade, you know tradecraft I
guess you could call it.
You know within that community.

(01:48:39):
But the other side, you know,we dealt with a lot of fraud
where they would steal yourcredit card and go buy you know
five, six thousand dollars ingift cards and we would stop
them and they'd have Home Depotand they'd have this and they'd
have that, and so we weredealing with all that crime too.

(01:49:00):
So it wasn't just you know, thedrug which we felt pretty good
that we were making, you know, asmall percentage debt, but at
least it was a little debt insaving lives, especially once
the fentanyl came in.
You know when we would seize alot of times in interdiction.
Like I said, you're dealingwith bulk form, when it's being
moved from a to b.
So it's bulk form, a drug.
So we would seize a whole kiloof pure fentanyl or be a whole
kilo of cocaine.

(01:49:21):
So a lot of these interdictionguys around the country when
they see it, it's in its pureform.
So cocaine at 90, 95, you know,and then so that one kilo might
get broke down two or threetimes before it gets sold out in
the street.
So you, you went from 2.2pounds to 6.6 pounds, you know.
So the one kilo was actually,you know, five to seven pounds
worth of street product, andthen it's sold by Graham.

(01:49:43):
So these interdiction guys aremaking a huge dent and then drug
teams are too right whenthey're they're doing their
undercover work and all that.
But it's, it's not easy, it's ait's, it's definitely a trade
in its own to do interdiction.
But that's the easiest pointwhere you're going to see that
that bulk stuff, okay, all right.

Speaker 1 (01:50:03):
Well, sir, um, I am, I think I'm I'm comfortable with
all the questions that I wasgoing to ask.
Is there anything I haven't hiton that you were like, oh, we
should talk about this or wedidn't mention that.

Speaker 2 (01:50:18):
Yeah, no, you talk about technology and all that.
You know with the license platereader stuff, and I always tell
people it's just like hey, likeyou said, it's a force
multiplier.
You know it's in a time whenpolice agencies are hurting all
over this country.
I don't know that I've been toone yet in my new career here
working for a license platereader company to where the
agency is like oh man, we're fatwith people we can't take on

(01:50:41):
any more.
You know, I haven't seen thatyet.
And so in order to keepofficers safe and then keep the
community safe, you know youhave to rely on that technology.
You know, and I get it, itcomes at a cost.
But you know, and I get it, itcomes at a cost, but you know
what is the cost to thecommunity.
When we're talking aboutviolence and when we're talking
about school shootings and whenwe're talking about shootings I

(01:51:01):
think I saw at a mall we'retalking about trying to solve
those crimes, terrorismincidents like you saw in New
Orleans.
You know stuff like that.
You know license plate readersplay a very key role in that and
it is in its infancy within lawenforcement, no doubt.
But it's a technology that isgoing to keep evolving.
And for you know if there'sagencies or officers out there,

(01:51:26):
you know that don't have themyet.
There's some good companies outthere and obviously I work for
one of them now.
Where they, you know that thattechnology can help you.
And then, and then you talkabout a patrol car environment.
You know you think about allthe crap you have to do in your
car used to be back in the daywe wrote our stuff on a piece of
paper that we did.
It was a daily log.

(01:51:46):
You know we didn't have thesecomputers and all that stuff.
And then now, because of allthese technologies, like you
talk about facial recognition,fingerprints, open source
information, social media,license plate readers.
You know all that.
You're going to put it now allwithin a ball in your patrol car
.
And the big word right now, asyou know, in the RTCC world, is

(01:52:08):
integration, right, trying tointegrate that data.
So it's all in one point andthat's becoming big right now um
, companies that want tointegrate and then other
companies that may may not wantto integrate to protect their
data.
Um yep and so that's, that's,it's a it's.
I think that's the big word of2025.
You know, this year, probablythe tail end of 2024, was

(01:52:30):
integration.

Speaker 1 (01:52:31):
Yep, integration and regionalization.
So if you guys are, if you wantyour police department, let's
say you're not involved as a cop.
But you know, one of the thingsthat you should be concerned
about as a citizen is savingmoney for one, because these
technologies are not cheap andthey do come at a cost.
So when doing so, you have tomake sure that everybody is able

(01:52:55):
to play together, so to speak.
So if I get a technology likean iPhone, you know I've got my
Apple iPhone.
The beauty of having my AppleiPhone is it connects to my iPad
, it also connects to my MacBook.
They all play together.
However, they don't really playwith anything else, which kind
of hamstrings me.

(01:53:16):
Now I'm kind of stuck withApple at my house, like that's
literally the, that's what I'min.
I've had an iPhone sinceiPhones came out.
Now I feel like I'm kind ofstuck and now I'm, you know,
paying for a super expensivephone because all of my past
stuff goes to that and it'sgoing to cost me money and a
headache to learn how to geteverything else to kind of

(01:53:37):
transfer over if I were to get anew type of phone and then now
I don't have the communicationability.
So that is where integration isimportant.
So when we are talking aboutlicense plate readers or we're
talking about what's anothertechnology, readers, or we're

(01:53:57):
talking about uh, what's anothertechnology?

Speaker 2 (01:53:58):
um?

Speaker 1 (01:53:59):
you know, your your rapid uh id, which is your out,
your your wirelessfingerprinting stuff.
That's got to work with yourcomputer system in your car and
it's also got to work with thecomputer system in your office,
because if your in-car computerisn't the same type of computer
as what's in the office, thesoftware is going to be the same
.
Typically it doesn't matter whatcomputer you're running it from

(01:54:19):
, so they need to be able totalk to each other.
And your local agencies thatsurround your agency need to be
able to talk to each other, andthey may have different systems.
They may have differentsoftwares.
So because we are not privatepolice departments aren't't
private we have to be able towork together.
That is how we becomesuccessful and how we can be of

(01:54:40):
the best benefit to our citizens.
And by doing that, when youguys go to pick these
technologies, that's somethingto consider make sure that they
are integration friendly.

Speaker 2 (01:54:53):
Yeah, yeah, cause, unfortunately not not everybody
is right, right and I get it,they're, they're out to make
money.

Speaker 1 (01:55:00):
That is what businesses bottom line is, but
when it comes to public safety,when it comes.

Speaker 2 (01:55:04):
Yeah, it comes.
Yeah, it's public safety andcommunity safety Cause even if I
was a community member, I wouldwant the crime solved a as
quick, as quick as possible, butB as accurate as possible.
So the wrong person's notgetting locked up, the wrong
person's not getting interviewed, and there's technologies out
there and all that that thesepolice departments don't have.
You know your top 5%departments have, but these

(01:55:27):
other ones don't have.
So when you talk aboutaffordability and then being
able to integrate within man, ifyou want your officer to be as
good as he can be, you know yougotta, you gotta set them up for
success, don't set them up forfailure.
Right, get them the correctprogram, get them with the
companies that are willing tointegrate and talk to each other
.
Then, that way that data isopen.

(01:55:49):
I mean, yeah, um, yeah, it's,it's, it's unfortunate, but,
like you said, said it's abusiness, I get it.
It's somewhere built one wayand somewhere built another,
it's no different than anythingelse.

Speaker 1 (01:56:01):
Yeah, now I'm lucky, I get to do this podcast and I'm
a part of the Real-Time CrimeCenter Association out there and
my work where I'm at and beingable to use some of these
technologies personally and Ijust get to, I'm always immersed
in it, which is kind of fun.
I get to see the good, bad andthe ugly of all of it.

(01:56:23):
And the one that you currentlywork for, insight LPR, I've
worked with in the past.
They've actually sponsored somepast seasons of the show that
we've done, along with a companylike Peregrine Peregrine's
another one that has helpedsponsor the show.
And you guys my audience knowsme I'm not going to plug or put

(01:56:47):
anybody out there that I don'tthink would be good for law
enforcement.
If I'm talking about you, it'sbecause I personally think that
you guys are legit and that'sone of the things I do really
like about insight um is theability to, the willingness to
just integrate and peregrine um.
I think that's a company youall have integrated with yeah

(01:57:10):
100, so that's kind of cool.
The two techs that I've workedwith in the past and have been
able to have workingrelationships with and totally
put my seal of approval behindon all of them is Peregrine and
Insight, two cool ones.
And the integration, theability to talk to each other

(01:57:32):
and make sure your stuff workstogether without charging the
citizens anything to do so.

Speaker 2 (01:57:38):
Yeah, and that's just it too, and that's I'm kind of
in your boat, right, I'm old,I've been around a long time, so
now it's just about honesty,right, I'm retired now and I
wouldn't come work for a companyif I didn't believe in what
they were doing.
I've obviously dealt with a lotof lpr companies, having
started an lpr program andhaving traveled around the
country and, and so I've seenthem all, I've helped a lot of

(01:58:00):
them, worked with a lot of them,uh, and so they're not all the
same.
They they all have some good,good technology to them.
You know that there's some goodthings with each company, um,
but yeah, the integration.
Integration is a big one, youknow, and that's what I do like
about our company motto.
It's just like, hey, weunderstand, we're not trying to
say that, you got to be justinsight, you are an insight,

(01:58:23):
only you only deal with that.
Maybe you deal, you know, withanother company.
You know, like, access is acompany that makes license plate
reader cameras, no problem, hey, just call us up because we'll
integrate those cameras into oursystem, because those cameras
alone don't do you any good,right, because they don't have
the technology or the platformto kind of go through that data
Whereas we do.
And then you took, like yousaid, peregrine, you talk about

(01:58:45):
a company like that.
Then well, now maybe they houseall your data and then we
integrate with them.
So we will integrate all ourinformation into there.
So then it's just one login,that's one stop.
Um, you know, there's a coupleother companies out there that
do that type of uh kind ofcentralized data location.
Well, we will integrate withall of them.

(01:59:05):
We're not going to say, hey,we're only going to give you the
plate, we're not going to giveyou any other information, hey,
man it's your information, it'syour license plate camera.
If we have your camera and yousay, hey, hey, will you
integrate with this othercompany?
Yep, no problem, give us yourphone number, we're going to
call them, we're going tointegrate, and no, we're not
going to charge you through theroof to do that.
That is your camera.
And then for us it's to saythat's your safety At the end of

(01:59:32):
the.
But I would never work for acompany like I held your data
back and that caused you injuryor that caused somebody else
injury.
I would never, I could neverlive with myself first off, and
I don't believe there are anycompanies out there like that.
But knowledge is power, right,yeah?
And when you're talking aboutinternet and when you talk about

(01:59:52):
policing in the 21st century,it's data.
Data is power, you know, andthat integration's key.
I mean, if you've got to loginto, like, I'll log into one
thing and that's all I'm logginginto, and so think about all

(02:00:19):
the data he might, you know, bemissing that could keep him safe
or somebody else safe or helphim solve a crime, something
like that, right?
So, so that's a big one.
That's why you know, inside LPR, I've only obviously I've only
been retired now in just lessthan a year, and so that's why I
went to work for them.
Just because when I looked atthe company, when I looked at
their background, I looked atthe people working there, they
actually believed it.

(02:00:39):
They weren't just pitching mesomething.
I had a lot of license platereader experience.
Shoot, I got in bucket trucks,I hung cameras, I programmed
cameras for the company we wereusing.
So I knew a lot about them andI would have never joined them
if I didn't believe that whatthey were telling me they
believed in yeah, plus, you sawthe fruits of it, yeah, as a
trooper, so that that makes abig difference, and yeah, 100.

Speaker 1 (02:01:01):
I've got quite a few buddies that now they're working
.
You know, I got some friendsthat work for a company called
first two.
These guys are all these onesthat I'm you're going to hear me
listing.
These are all law enforcementcompanies.
I got friends that are workingat Peregrine.
I got friends that work forInsight.
I've got friends that work forAxis you had mentioned Axis, so
it's funny, these officers thatthey.

(02:01:23):
It's a second way to serve whenyou really think about it.
It's kind of a you know you'renot doing the law enforcement
side anymore, but you're stillsurrounded by the culture and
it's a way that you know, knowthe product you're helping put
out there is putting bad guys injail, so that to me that's fun,
like just knowing.

Speaker 2 (02:01:41):
That's what I tell people.
Now they look oh, how's theretirement life, you know, and
you know, is it going to be badgoing in there?
And I said, look, I still getto hang out with the cops.
I was like I still get to drinkbourbon with them and hang out,
I just don't get woke up atnight.

Speaker 1 (02:01:55):
I don't have to answer the phone 24-7.

Speaker 2 (02:01:57):
If I want to leave my phone at home, I'm leaving my
phone at home Even though, ifyou called me on a Saturday, I'm
going to holler at you.
Maybe you need some help withsomething or run a plate or
whatever.
I'm definitely going to do that, but I don't need to.

Speaker 1 (02:02:15):
When it's snowing out , I get to stay home now.

Speaker 2 (02:02:16):
Bad weather doesn't mean I got to work.
Yeah, a hundred percent, ahundred percent, yeah, so, uh,
yeah, so, yeah, it's a.
It's a good way to kind oftransition over, still see the
brotherhood, you know, andthat's why it's a lot of people
I've met guys like yourself andall that that I never would have
met because I was part of thedrug world, you know, as an
extra, extra world and that's avery close world.
Um, a lot of us are super goodfriends.
There were some awesome peopleout there.
Um, that taught me everything.

Speaker 1 (02:02:38):
I mean.

Speaker 2 (02:02:38):
I, I mean, I knew nothing and they taught me
everything, um, but now I gotfriends in Miami Dade now, and I
got friends in Miami gardens,and I got friends in Texas and
Louisiana that I never, never,would have met before, and so
it's, it's been a god's callingto kind of come over to this
side to try to help out where Ican, right, yeah, I can give you
some technology, right, right,yeah, yeah, twist some, twist

(02:03:00):
some prices in the salesdepartment or whatever.
Yeah, however, I can help abrother out.

Speaker 1 (02:03:04):
so I like it very cool.
Well, sir, I got nothing elsefor you.
Um, I appreciate your time, Iappreciate your service, so you
made it, you made it.
You got to retirement, you gotto retirement before becoming a
viral video.

Speaker 2 (02:03:19):
Yeah, that's right yeah.
I know I'm not going to liethat I wouldn't have wanted to
have been that ConnecticutTrooper one time on a viral
video.

Speaker 1 (02:03:27):
Right.
That guy's a legend.

Speaker 2 (02:03:29):
I stayed away from TikTok.
It's much less good.

Speaker 1 (02:03:31):
Good job.
All right brother stayed awayfrom tiktok is messed that good,
so good job.
All right, brother, we will uhjust stick around after this and
uh, everybody else, thanks forlistening, and we'll catch you
on the next one.
Take it easy, yes, sir.

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