Why Cops Screw Up: Constitution and Arrest Search & Seizure

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Disclaimer Welcome to Two Cops One Donut Podcast.
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Any content provided by guestsis of their own volition, and

(00:20):
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Furthermore, some content isgraphic and has harsh language
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Two Cops One Donut and its hostdo not accept any liability for
statements or actions taken byguests.
Thank you for listening.

(00:59):
And uh he is coming with awealth of credibility.
So I just want to throw this outthere before I let him start
talking.
Harvard grad, um law grad fromGonzaga, um, practices law in
Washington and New Jersey.
And now uh Idaho and SupremeCourt.

SPEAKER_00 (01:19):
Okay, U.S.
Supreme Court.

SPEAKER_02 (01:21):
Uh I didn't even get to former cop.
Um retired uh out of uh NevadaHighway Patrol.
Yep, Nevada Highway Patrolsergeant.
Okay.
So we've got a cop that knowsthe law that practices the law.

SPEAKER_00 (01:34):
Right.
So how are you, sir?
I'm good, I'm glad to be here.
I've been looking forward tothis.

SPEAKER_02 (01:38):
Yeah, we've been talking with Blue to Gold for
quite some time and just tryingto make it work and get it get
it going, and you know how itgoes.

SPEAKER_00 (01:44):
Yeah, and we we've been uh blowing up in in Texas.
Um I just got done teaching foruh Texas DPS down in Waco.
Oh, okay.
Yep, and then so had a littleextra time and wanted to come by
and see you.

SPEAKER_02 (01:55):
Nice, excellent.
When uh tonight's focus, guys,or I should say this morning's
focus, is going to be search andseizure and constitution, um,
which is your specialty.

SPEAKER_00 (02:04):
Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_02 (02:05):
Okay.
Um it's funny that you mentionWaco and we're talking about uh
search and seizure in theconstitution, because if there
was one place that reallyroyally screwed up search and
seizure in the constitution, itwas Waco, Texas during uh what
was that dude's name?
Uh Kare uh not Koresh.
David Kresh, right?
No, was it yeah, David Koresh,yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(02:25):
Yeah, the the the Looney dudethat did the uh compound.

SPEAKER_00 (02:28):
No, I I wanted to go out there and see the space and
see what what was there, youknow, what's there today.
I don't know if that's kind ofweird, but I just want to see
like if it's actually rebuilt orsomething.
But um, yeah, anyway.

SPEAKER_02 (02:39):
Yeah, there's somebody's I this is what I love
about having the live feed isthey can tell me when
something's messing.

SPEAKER_00 (02:44):
And you know, I I think you sound fine, but you
know, they hear somethingdifferent.

SPEAKER_02 (02:47):
Yeah, so all right.
I just readjusted the mic.
Let me uh make sure they areplugged in there.
I'm not hearing any feedback inmy headphones.

SPEAKER_00 (02:57):
Yeah, no, it sounds it sounds good.
Maybe it's a connection on theirend too.

SPEAKER_02 (02:59):
Yeah, but so uh two cops, one donut.
It is not Monday.
You were right.
This is this is a bonus episode.

SPEAKER_03 (03:05):
Yep.

SPEAKER_02 (03:06):
We made it work.
Uh we are still gonna have anepisode Monday, so just be ready
for that.
And a matter of fact, I do haveto get a hold of those guests to
find out.
Have you ever heard of the PopBrothers?
No.
Okay, so the Pop brothers, theythey go around and they're their
big internet media thing is whenthe cops talk to you and start
asking you about a crime, whatshould you do?
And they're they have a slogan,it's shut the fuck up.

SPEAKER_03 (03:29):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (03:30):
So yeah, um, they're they're funny, but they're
right.
Like, I mean don't I tell peopleask me as a cop, like, what do
you tell your family?
Of course.
So don't talk.
And don't consent.
Yeah, and don't consent to shit.

SPEAKER_00 (03:43):
Yeah.
I mean, you know, there's alwaysan exception to every rule.
Um, you know, the reality isthat sometimes doing that for a
relatively minor issue can justmake it a little worse for you
because the cops are gonna takea one-sided story.
However, you know, the realityis if you look, I'll just tell
you, let's just be honest aboutit.
If if if somebody messed up,they shouldn't talk and consent.
Right.
Um, even if they didn't mess up,but they're being accused of a

(04:06):
of a serious issue, don't talkor consent.
It's just the reality.
I mean, you know, you shouldn'tdig your own grave.

SPEAKER_02 (04:11):
Right.
Um, sorry.
I'm trying to see if there's away I can adjust your name.
I don't know if it's going toadjust everybody's name.

SPEAKER_00 (04:19):
Yeah, it looks like that's probably the right way to
do it.
Yeah.
Let's see here.
Oh, we gotta be too late.
Yeah, it might be.
Oh well.
That's okay.
That's a compliment where I comefrom.

SPEAKER_02 (04:31):
Yeah.
We could just do this and nobodyhas any names.
There we go.
If you want to know the names,then you're just gonna have to
log on.
Uh, this is part of the theissue when you're doing a live
stream and you're trying to dothings.
Yeah, and this is the secondtime I think you've done this?
Yeah, this is only a secondtime.
Yeah.
All right, exactly.
So, but let's get to you, sir.
Um, first and foremost, giveeverybody a little history

(04:53):
lesson on what led you to lawenforcement.
I want them to understand whoyou are as a person, how you
came about to have a life ofservice, so to speak.

unknown (05:01):
Yep.

SPEAKER_02 (05:02):
And go into that.

SPEAKER_00 (05:02):
All right.
So look, I'm uh I'm born in NewJersey.
Uh that only matters is mymannerisms.
I got my I'm an Italian kid.
I put my hands all over theplace.
Uh, how I've not been, you know,charged with battery is beyond
me, right?
Just smacking into people.
But my family moved to uh LasVegas, Nevada, very, very young.
I was six months old, raised inLas Vegas, um, very poor family,

(05:23):
and that matters because I was avery poor but very good student.
And that's what got me intoHarvard.

unknown (05:28):
Oh.

SPEAKER_00 (05:29):
And um I have a master's and a bachelor's from
Harvard, which is really good.
They actually um gave me almosta free ride.
And while I was there, um I, youknow, in my family is a lot of
law enforcement.
My uncle, my grandfather, mygrandfather, uh, who recently
passed away at 94, he uh NYPD,he was like, he was my father,
right?
My father wasn't around toomuch.
And um, he, you know, he had abig influence on my life and and

(05:52):
gave me a lot of moral characterand so forth.
And so um, when I was atHarvard, I was a uh a uh reserve
officer at night to a smalltown.
And you know, that's back east,that's the Boston area.
You don't do much as a reserve.
They're not like they don'tembrace reserves like the West
Coast do because they see themas competition.
So I did like traffic control,very minor things, no real

(06:15):
police work.
And then I went back to myhometown of Las Vegas.
I um was actually a lobbyist fora little bit.
Oh um, yeah, and so I met mywife at, you know, while
lobbying, and I had to get areal job, health insurance, and
and so forth.
And so um, because that was likea 1099.

SPEAKER_01 (06:31):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (06:32):
And so I joined uh the Nevada DPS and I spent most
of my time in Las Vegas.
I also work for a smallerdepartment, uh Elko, Nevada,
which is like in the middle ofnowhere, Nevada.
Uh and then afterwards I wasteaching search and seizure on
the side.
And I and and you know, youryour guests, one thing uh I like
them know about me is that I'mjust uh I'm I'm an addict for uh

(06:52):
for search and seizure.
I I love it.
I like I I read it every singleday.
I love cases.
Um, you know, I just I've alwaysloved cases.
And I would look around mydepartment and the sexiest guys
on the block were the were theSWAT team guys and you know the
the the use of force guys andthey got all the love and maybe
they should.
But nobody really wanted to dothe search and seizure stuff.

(07:13):
And I started doing it and Istarted reading case law.
I and I and I think like forwhatever reason I have a brain
for it.
Like I really understand whatthe courts want, and I just
under I get like when like theFourth Amendment only prohibits
one type of search or seizure,and that's the unreasonable one.
Well, what does that mean?
And and maybe we can get intothat because I actually have a
way to teach it.

SPEAKER_01 (07:31):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (07:32):
But the point is, like, I really knew what they
meant by unreasonable, not justlike the good faith argument,
unreasonable, reasonable.
I just knew what they werelooking for.
So, and I would predict thesecases and predict these
outcomes, and you know, I wouldread these cases, or if somebody
would give me a fact pattern andsay, you know, what do you think
about this, Anthony?
And I would say, Well, I thinkthis is what the courts are
gonna look for.

(07:52):
This is very young in my in mygame here, and I would almost
always be right.
And and so I'm like, all right,I got a knack for this.
And so I wrote a book called TheSearch and Seizure Survival
Guide.
It became, but it has beenproven to be very, very popular.
You know, tens and tens ofthousands of these books are
purchased.
And um, and so the uh and I haveone for for every state as well,

(08:14):
right?
And uh yeah, there it is, youknow, search and seizure guide.
Yep.
And uh, you know, it's onAmazon, it's also on Audible,
it's on uh our Blue to Goldwebsite.
And you know, for thoselisteners, if they're looking
for the book, get it from blueto gold.com.
It's the exact same price,includes free shipping, um, and
uh you get some extra stuff withit.
And you support blue to gold andI support Braze, you know, Bezos

(08:37):
sending his girlfriend to themoon.

SPEAKER_01 (08:39):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (08:40):
Um, and so I I wrote the book and I was searching, I
was teaching search and seizureand a side, a little bit of a
side hustle, right?
Because I was at I was with thepatrol or I know what you mean.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
I had a little side hustle, hada moonlighting agreement, and
I'm like, you know, and I wasgetting these like um you know
these departments signing up,and you know, and I had like,
you know, just got lucky, youknow, people like, all right,
you know, you have no like noresume necessarily besides the

(09:03):
fact I'm a cop.
And so I was like, all right, soI'm getting some traction,
people like the way I wasteaching it.
And then I realized that inorder to be at the top of my
game, right?
Especially with the feds, likethe feds aren't gonna invite a
guy in that just worked at thehigher patrol and has, you know,
yeah, Harvard degree, fine, butit's not a law degree.
So I'm like, all right, I gottago to law school.
So I went to law school and Igraduated, you know, pro at the

(09:26):
top of my class.
I I really worked hard because Iwanted to be here, right?
Yeah.
I I want I didn't want to be inthe courtroom.
And for those who, you know, um,you know, I'm a I'm a member of
the US Supreme Court, but it'sjust that's an accomplishment.
That's not, I'm not arguingcases for the US Supreme Court.
I I I would love to.
I maybe I I have it because waita minute.

SPEAKER_02 (09:47):
You're a member?

SPEAKER_00 (09:47):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (09:48):
What does that mean?

SPEAKER_00 (09:48):
So that means I could argue a case before the
the US Supreme Court.
Oh.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (09:54):
How do you how do you decide?

SPEAKER_00 (09:56):
Well, I don't so first of all, I I would have to
have a client and I would haveto petition the court for cert,
right?

SPEAKER_02 (10:01):
So, you know, all these cases that go before once
it's already gone through it'sit's already went through the
appellates and all that stuffand gets up there and they're
like, all right, it qualifies tobe seen, and then you can be
like, I'll pick that case up.
Is that how that works?

SPEAKER_00 (10:12):
Well, you would you would apply to the Supreme Court
to take a case and if they ifand if they accepted it, you can
be of counsel.
You can be the, you could bethe, you know, theoretically, I
could be the lawyer arguing acase before the U.S.
Supreme Court.
I have I have thosequalifications.

SPEAKER_01 (10:24):
Okay.

unknown (10:25):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (10:25):
When I say qualifications, let's let's not
hyperbole here, right?
I'm, you know, there's a lot ofwhen you're when you're at that
level, like that is what you do,right?
And so, um, but it's just kindof cool because I would like my
dream is I don't think I'm evergoing to be tapped to be like,
Anthony, you're gonna argue thiscase before the US Supreme
Court.
Those are those odds are veryBut you can be on the team.

(10:45):
Correct.
Yeah.
I want to be on the team.

SPEAKER_03 (10:47):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (10:47):
I want to be on the team.
There's a few cases, there's afew issues going out, uh going
on right now that I would lovefor people maybe listening to
this podcast, maybe anotherlawyer saying, actually, I do
have a drone case that's goingfor the US Supreme Court.
I do have a, you know, atechnology case, and you know a
lot about technology and howthat intersects with the Fourth
Amendment.
Um, I would love to be uh tappedinto those cases.

SPEAKER_02 (11:10):
Okay, let's uh go to the comments section.
One of the cool parts abouttrying these live stream
podcasts that we're doing here,uh especially the educational
ones, is we get to have incomingquestions live while they're
hearing the stuff.
Or comments.
And some of them actually, youknow, are really good.
Mike Cucumber is one of our umuh regulars, I should say.
And uh he'll give us as muchshit as we give out sometimes um

(11:34):
to kind of hold us accountable.
I like it.
He said just because the courtsare looking at it or looking for
it doesn't make it right.
It should be what theconstitution is looking for.
What do you say to that?

SPEAKER_00 (11:43):
Well, I say if you know what that is, then you are
better than me.
I mean, in other words, ifyou're if you're saying you know
exactly what the constitution islooking for, then you are the
smartest guy in the room.

SPEAKER_02 (11:52):
Yeah, because people will argue.
I mean, look at SecondAmendment.

SPEAKER_00 (11:54):
Uh you let's don't even get me started by the
Second Amendment.

SPEAKER_02 (11:56):
The easiest thing in the world, to me, it looks like
it's black and white.

SPEAKER_00 (11:59):
I think I went to 7-Eleven today and got a coffee.
I believe that Glock switchesshould be sold at 7-Eleven.

SPEAKER_02 (12:05):
I mean, I mean I'm just saying, like, I mean, I'm
according to the con the wholepoint, and you know, you're you
know this stuff better than me,but when I look at the Second
Amendment, they didn't say,well, certain weapons.
The whole point, the the flavorbehind it was so you can hold
your government accountable.

SPEAKER_00 (12:21):
That that was the main purpose.
They they were not looking, uh,they didn't need to pass an
amendment to tell people to havea right for self-defense.
That was a given, okay, inAmerica.
Okay, everybody had muskets andso forth.
It was because uh they wereworried about having another
king, right?
Yep.
Um, but the point is, is yeah,it's it's it's easy to say,
well, just comply with theConstitution.
Um and I and I agree with that,of course.

(12:42):
I'm trying to, but what doesthat mean?
I I like to say, you know, thatthe the Fourth Amendment has 54
words.
And those 54 words at the end ofthe day are pretty ambiguous.
It only prohibits one type ofsearch or seizure.
And I like to make a joke in myclass.
I'll say, um, you know, who inthe class uh is a follower, you
know, a connoisseur of colonialhistory, right?

(13:03):
Who who at least likes to listenabout George Washington, Thomas,
and so forth?
And they're like, yeah, youknow, some people like I kind of
listened to those podcasts andsaid, me too.
And I said, but I'll tell you,I've studied the Founding
Fathers in uh extensively, andthey are the most lazy people
I've ever studied because theyput these 54 words down a piece
of parchment, and they had no,you I'm like, you're telling me

(13:24):
that James Madison, who wrotethe Fourth Amendment, you're
telling me he couldn't havetaken 10 extra minutes to put in
there the Carroll doctrine?
Right.
The border search exception.

SPEAKER_03 (13:34):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (13:34):
Anything about hot pursuit?
Anything about drones?
So the point is, these guys, Ilike to say, you know, they just
want to get out of Philadelphia,they're done with the content
the convention, and they didn'twant to go to the club, they
want to go to the pub.
And it's the same thing with thewith the Second Amendment.
I'm I'm like, you telling methat James Manson couldn't have
wrote uh anything about theAR-15?

SPEAKER_01 (13:51):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (13:52):
So, you know, it's it's it's easy to say just
comply with the Constitution,but uh very smart people fight
over every single day about whatthose words mean, right?
Uh a great example is thepeople.
Who, you know, we you know, theright of the people to be
secure, right?
Well, who are the people?
Because right now the U.S.
Supreme Court has held thatanybody pretty much with any
connection to the United Statesinside the interior is protected

(14:14):
by the Fourth Amendment.
Well, what about the SecondAmendment?
It says the same thing, theright of the people, right?
But they say that people hereillegally don't have gun rights,
which is the right answer.
But why do they have second theFourth Amendment rights?
I just thought I'm just saying,like, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 (14:29):
Like, I see what you say.

SPEAKER_00 (14:30):
It's a different people.
Yeah.
And, you know, quite frankly,I'm not sure.
Like, if I was the justice, Idon't think the Fourth Amendment
fully applies to people hereillegally, okay?
That's a federal law.
What does the federal law say?
I think the the Congress hasmore latitude.
However, um, the Supreme Courthas already made that decision.
It it applies to everybody withsome connection in the interior
of the United States.

(14:50):
So if, in other words, thenumber of Sicario?
Yes.
I'm like, if you're in the uhthe holding pen of the uh the
the border patrol, you don'treally got Fourth Amendment
rights.
You know what I mean?
Right.
You're out of here.

SPEAKER_02 (15:00):
You're in limbo.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (15:01):
But if you make it past that point and you make it
to the interior, uh then you getstopped by a guy like you.
You're you got full FourthAmendment rights.
And I'm not saying we shouldn'tact like that.
I'm not saying that that's notthe way to do business.
But the point is we can fightover what that means.
So when when um when people tryto make it sound simpler than it
is, I I wish it was more simple.

(15:21):
But the Founding Fathers arelazy, they put 54 words down,
and they now we have to fightover it.
That's such a unique way.

SPEAKER_02 (15:28):
I never heard it put that way.

SPEAKER_03 (15:29):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (15:29):
And I never understood, or I never knew that
that argument for the SecondAmendment, you don't, you don't
get it if you're not a citizen,but you get Fourth Amendment
rights if you're not.

SPEAKER_00 (15:41):
And it's actually one of the only amendments.
Uh well, it's it's um the SecondAmendment is the only amendment
that that the courts have saiddoes not apply to illegal
aliens.

SPEAKER_01 (15:53):
Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 (15:53):
But yet the First Amendment does, the Fourth
Amendment does, the FifthAmendment does.
They all apply except that one.
Weird.
It is weird.
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (16:01):
All right.
Going to the comments here.
Uh King Slayer said, um, I wasand he dropped$5 in the super
chat.
I left it up.

SPEAKER_00 (16:07):
Well, make sure you split it with me.

SPEAKER_02 (16:08):
Yeah.
Thank you very much, Kingslayer.
Um, he said, I was able toattend a blue to gold class.
I loved it.
It was actually I actually wasable to ask him about Stiegel
disagreement.
Uh, I watched all his videos.

SPEAKER_00 (16:21):
I don't know what he's referring to about the
Stiegel disagreement.
I know uh Stiegald is a uh he'sreferring to a Supreme Court
case.
Do you know about this case?

SPEAKER_02 (16:28):
I not off the top of my head.

SPEAKER_00 (16:29):
It's uh it's the one that says that if you have an
arrest warrant for a person, youcannot go to a third-party home
and make that arrest, right?
Right.
That's that rule, right?
But you could go to the firstparty, you could go to their
domicile and enter that homewith the arrest warrant to
effectuate that arrest.
Um Do you okay?

SPEAKER_02 (16:46):
So we've had we have this debate quite regularly.
My understanding from a lawenforcement perspective is I
have to have um something that Ican articulate that that person
is in that home.

SPEAKER_00 (16:56):
That's correct.
Um you have to have a reason tobelieve they're currently
present, but the standard isvery, very low in that.
So the way I teach it is youneed three things to enter a
home with an arrest warrant.
You need a valid arrest warrant,you should make sure that the
thing hasn't been pulled.
The second thing is you needprobabil cause that that is
their domicile.
Now, that is, you know, for mysmart people watching out there,
they'll say, Well, Anthony, youknow, in the fourth circuit, we

(17:18):
only require reasonablesuspicion that's their home.
Well, I'm gonna, uh, you know,if that's the way you want to
operate, fine.
But that's not really goodbusiness.
I mean, why should we kick aguy's door ring over reasonable
suspicion that they l that theylive there?
Um, I teach that the SupremeCourt really wants probable
cause, and that just makessense.
But I do teach that you onlyneed reasonal suspicion that
they are currently present.

SPEAKER_01 (17:38):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (17:38):
Uh, except the Ninth Circuit.
The Ninth Circuit wants probablecause in that too.
But the point is, is that um theuh that's very easy.
Their cars in the driveway.
You know that they work dayhours, you know, they work a
day, they have a day uh theywork at McDonald's during day
show.

SPEAKER_02 (17:52):
It's their mailing address.

SPEAKER_00 (17:53):
It's their mailing address.
Uh that's they did they updatedtheir license uh two months ago.

SPEAKER_02 (17:58):
Yeah, I checked their social media page and two
days ago they were out front ofthe house.

SPEAKER_00 (18:01):
And they should be home though, right?
Exactly.
And you see the lights on and soforth.
So then you then you can make aforced entry.
Now, some states have moreparticular or more specific uh
restrictions, like uh Texas, youcannot make a forced entry uh
with that warrant unless it's uhsearch warrant.
It's a felony.
Oh, okay.
No, we can't do it with themisdemeanor with the
misdemeanor.

SPEAKER_01 (18:18):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (18:18):
Nevada, you can't kick a uh person's door in or
force your way and you know, inum with a misdemeanor at night
unless you have nighttimeservice.
So you shouldn't be doing amisdemeanor search arrest
warrant at night anyway.
Well, I'll tell you though, um,okay, you're you're absolutely
correct.
But I'll I'll just but but whatabout the guy who um is causing
a disturbance in a neighborhoodor whatever?

(18:40):
You find out he also has amisdemeanor warrant, you don't
really have agency to enter hishome, but he answers the door
and he's like, You ain't comingin my house, and you know, he
but he's he's causingneighborhood issues, whatever.
And you haven't you like youknow you have this misdemeanor
warrant, it'll be nice just tograb him out.
Yeah.
And be like, you know what,you're going at the subject of
convenience.

SPEAKER_02 (18:57):
I get that.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (18:58):
Just but but but you're but but as far as kicking
doors and yeah, I'm not gonnago.

SPEAKER_02 (19:01):
All right, boys, let's get the team together.
We're gonna I'm not doing thatfor a misdemeanor.
Um, going back over to thecomments, I know these guys are
gonna be going crazy today, um,especially having you on.
Uh the Don Dunpeel said,Unfortunately, we see too many
officers who try and build acase without the most important
tool, which is active listening.
Uh Renee, Renee Harden.
I love donuts, but only thefat-free ones.

(19:24):
They don't exist.

SPEAKER_00 (19:25):
No, they're called bagel.
Well, bagel's not fat-free.
That's a donut.
Okay.
That's a that's a healthy donut,though.

SPEAKER_02 (19:30):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (19:30):
That's the no healthier.

SPEAKER_02 (19:32):
We disagree on what a donut is, then, sir.
Uh Steve Wallace in the house,what's up?
Uh, Mike Cucumber said, I am thesmartest guy in the world.
Thank you.
Um, what is your take on flockcameras tracking people?
That is actually a very modernquestion and is going through
the shit right now.

SPEAKER_00 (19:48):
Well, when what in Seattle you mean?
Or the um in Washington?
Yeah.
So here's my opinion on flockcameras.
They do not implicate the FourthAmendment at this point.
And the reason why is that thereare two searches.
Under the Fourth Amendment,right?
There's right of privacy andthere's trespass.
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (20:04):
So I'm just adjusting the mic cables.

SPEAKER_00 (20:06):
That's fine.
So the um the trespass does notapply this trespass argument,
which is U.S.
versus Jones 2012, that does notapply to flock cameras because
they're not conducting anytrespass.
You have to have a physicaltrespass in order to implicate
that that search.
Now, they could arguablyimplicate a reasonable

(20:27):
expectation of property, right?
And that case is CATS.
That's K-A-T-Z, that's U.S.
Supreme Court 1967.
The problem is that, you know,for the people who are saying
that these are searches underthe Fourth Amendment, is that
you would have to, the, the, thecameras would have to be so
intrusive that they are reallygiving government information

(20:50):
that you you had just have ahigh level, a reasonable extent
of privacy.
I don't think that that'sreally, we're not there yet.
Okay.
There are a lot of flaw cameras.
We, you know, they definitelycan give you um, they can they
can share lifestyle in in in youknow what time you go to work
and you know, maybe what area ofthe neighborhood you're in.
And it's just, but it's just notthere yet.

(21:10):
I mean, it's just not there yet.
Okay, there's there's way moreintrusive things that the
government does um, you know,that the courts have found that
is not an expectation ofprivacy.
So, but I will say this, okay?
That one day there will be atime that sorry.
Yep.

SPEAKER_01 (21:31):
Go ahead.
There will be a time.

SPEAKER_00 (21:33):
There will be a time when that the fusion centers,
you know, these these thesecrime centers and so forth will
have so many cameras feedinginto it.
Whether it is, you know, flock,whether it's also the nest
cameras, um, or the the ringcameras, I should say, the ring

(21:54):
the cameras, the securitycameras from private businesses.
And these are all combined intothis master feed.
Yeah.
That you will basically be ableto track people from their door
to other people's houses, andit'll it almost would be like a
virtual GPS.

SPEAKER_02 (22:12):
Really?

SPEAKER_00 (22:12):
Yes.
Absolutely.
I mean, we have the technologynow.
Right.
Right.
It's just that it's not reallyused to that degree on a wide
scale.
When that occurs, when we havethat kind of level of
surveillance, or at least closeto that, that's when I think you
have a viable argument thatflock, the flock cameras and the
well, it's it's and it's flockwill just be part of the mesh.

SPEAKER_01 (22:33):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (22:33):
But but at that point, the government is going
to have to answer somequestions.
And I think that they're goingto have to say, um, yeah, look,
yeah, maybe, maybe it is a, youknow, a police state type stuff,
right?
Which the Supreme Court, Ithink, is concerned about that
technology is, and they talkabout this, that the technology
is giving you information thatthere's just no way that was
even conceivable when theConstitution was was ratified.

(22:57):
Now, of course, the foundingfathers had no idea where this
is all going, okay?
You know, technology and soforth.
They couldn't have, in a millionyears, believed that we could
have uh, you know, that we havethe the the that we actually
have the capacity right now in2025 to send a private person to
the moon, right?
Yeah.
If you had enough money, right?
So, but um, it's just that, youknow, and what happened in

(23:18):
Washington uh with the flockcamera, you know, the uh the
Freedom of Information Actstuff, that's just to me an
agency kind of caving on it,right?
They're just saying, look, wedon't want to have that battle.
But also remember thatWashington is one of the most uh
restrictive states in the unionas far as they have a they have
a very deep-seated umexpectation of privacy in their

(23:39):
const in their you know in theirex their constitution.
So they their protections aremuch higher than the Fourth
Amendment.
So you got to be careful what'sseeing stuff coming out of
Washington and saying that mustapply to Texas.
Because Texas does not have thesame um robust mentality on
privacy.

SPEAKER_02 (23:58):
Right.
Okay.
Fair enough.
I think that was a very wellthought out question.
Um, this is somebody from yourpage.
I'm I'm going back throughtrying to catch up on the if if
they're from my page, they'reprobably hating on me.

SPEAKER_00 (24:10):
Yeah.
Um I get more sovereigncitizens.
Oh, really?
Oh, yeah.
Oh, those we should talk aboutsovereign citizens.
Yeah, they they they they uhthey they you know they they
beat me up in the chats, whichis oh yeah, tumbling diary.

SPEAKER_02 (24:21):
I hope you never speak in front of the Supreme
Court.
I take that back.
I hope you do, because youdefinitely blow it for your
side.
Wait, what do you say?
He said, because you'lldefinitely blow it for your
side.
Oh man, I didn't know you gotthe haters over in here.

SPEAKER_00 (24:34):
Yeah, they uh they they they but look at the end of
the day, I I'm here to shareinformation.
I really don't have any like,you know, I don't I definitely
don't have any hate on them atall.
Like I'm just you know, I andI'm actually glad that well
you're getting love too.
So I'm getting some love.
Good.
There you go.
You know, but I do uh I I likethe fact that they are they're
also you know considering theconstitution, they're trying to
have these arguments because youknow I do think that cops mess

(24:56):
up.
And I and I'm the first one toto to call it out.

SPEAKER_02 (25:00):
We gotcha.
Um just uh going to the commentshere.
Please let me give me an updateon the audio too.
Can you push, see this thiscable here?
Just push inward towards you.
Yeah, there we go.
Just checking connections andmaking sure, because I don't
know whose mic it is that couldbe crackling.
Um if it's getting feedback fromany of our devices here.

(25:27):
But all right, we we've donewhat we can do.
Yeah, we've done what we can.

SPEAKER_00 (25:30):
We moved the computers and the phones.

SPEAKER_02 (25:32):
Yeah, everybody says the audio is good, it just has a
slight crackle to it, but um I'mnot sure what it could be.
So uh Beckham, UK Han Live saida freedom of information request
to flock camera data has shownan allowed tracking of people by
stalkers.
I've proven this with a FOIA inIndiana a month ago.

(25:54):
So privacy violations, yes.

SPEAKER_00 (25:57):
So what what's the question there?

SPEAKER_02 (25:59):
I don't know that it's a question as much as a
statement that the they thinkthat it's a privacy violation
because it has allowed stalkersto find people.

SPEAKER_00 (26:07):
Well, that's that's that's a law issue.
That's not a that's not a that'snot a constitutional issue.
Okay, if if the government isgiving out, you know, location
information for people's plates,they shouldn't be doing that.
That's that that's pass a lawthat says that your FOIA does
not include other people'splates, right?
I mean, that's it's it's likeit's like it's it's the same
thing with body worn cameras.

SPEAKER_01 (26:29):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (26:29):
We you know, really, really, the the person, you
should not, you should haverestrictions on, you know, I
gotta be careful here becauseyou got a freedom of the press,
but it's like if the if the ifif I call the police to my house
because of a of a neighbordispute, and they're, you know,
of course the body camera'srolling and I bring them into my
house, I really don't wantmembers of the public to request

(26:54):
that video and see inside myhouse.
I really don't.
I I think it's a safety issue.
I don't want them scoping up myhouse and seeing nice stuff they
can steal.
Um, but at the same time, I alsowant transparency for how the
police act, right?
So I'm not smart enough and Ihave enough study issue about
what that balance is, but that'swhat's going on here, okay?
It's just it's it's not it's nota constitutional issue, it's a

(27:15):
legal issue.
Go to your legislature and say,hey, we don't want to give out
this, these plate and the plateinformation to um members of the
public that are not, that that'snot their car.
And they have no and theyshouldn't have a right to it,
quite frankly.
Yeah.
Now, but but but back up.
If you're a if you're a newsreporter and you want to see
like how much tracking is goingon and so forth, that's

(27:37):
different.
But as far as specific, liketell me where this car has been,
no, they should not give thatup.

SPEAKER_02 (27:42):
Yes, yeah.
Any, any, and something else toconsider for the law enforcement
side too, is when you do thesesearches, there's a a portion
that tells you to list yourreason for search and the case
number associated, right?
Which you should be doing.
But officers need to be carefulat the reasons that they're
putting in there because some ofthem put in there contacted um a

(28:04):
CI or uh narcoticsinvestigation.
Like you're giving up one, youridentity as a narco officer, or
two, you may be giving up aconfidential informant, yeah,
um, which is also dangerous.
So you don't want to don't wantto make those mistakes either.

SPEAKER_00 (28:19):
I like what Mike says though.
He says just because I disagreewith you doesn't mean I don't
like you.
Actually, that's uh that's athat's a good comment because I
feel the same way that like ifsomebody's on my channel and um
you know they they disagree withme, but they're but I think they
respect me to a degree.
Otherwise, if they thought itwas a looney tune, they probably
would just you know keep going.
And uh, you know, I I the thebut I like I like I I think I
respect because I like thatdiscussion and so forth.

SPEAKER_02 (28:41):
Yeah.
Um Kingslayer said also I alsodon't want to be stalked by the
police through flat cameratracking.

SPEAKER_00 (28:47):
Yeah, but it's not stalking though.
I mean, you know what I mean?
It's at the end of the day, ifyou're gonna go through an
intersection or you're gonna goon the highway and go east on
80, it's not stalking to knowthat you went east on 80.
It's just not.
If that's the definition ofstalking, then we all have been
stalking, right?
I mean, what you know, I mean,I'm just saying, like, that's
what what's the definition ofstalking is a criminal intent.

(29:08):
And just knowing that a car hasdone, you know, quick trips back
and forth to LA is not stalking.

SPEAKER_02 (29:15):
Yeah, and that's another thing that I find a lot
of the arguments I see in thechats is they don't know uh I'm
checking right now, Anthony.
Um different, Anthony.
Uh they don't know the culpablemindsets of right that people
need to have for intent oncrimes.

SPEAKER_00 (29:36):
That's right.
So I mean, okay, you you talkedabout, you know, um, you know,
if if a if a detective, right,in an undercover car follows a
suspect for eight hoursstraight, right?
And is looking to see where thisperson's going, you know, are
they going to the cannabisshops?
Are they doing this?
Are they doing that?
Are they going to known drughouses?

(29:57):
Is that detective stalking?
Of course not.
If it was, then they're doing,then cops would they're
committing crimes every singleday.
Stalking has a criminal intent.
Right.
And that's I just, you know,it's so it's important to
realize, have that perspective.
I don't, you know, I would, I,I, I agree as a as a
constitutional attorney that Idon't want my government

(30:18):
surveilling me.
And, you know, I would be, youknow, I would be, uh, I would
tell you that I would be alittle unsettled if I found out
that my government put a pollcamera pointed at my front door
for 18 months straight, likethey did in uh a case out of uh
Illinois.
Um but and I do think that hasconstitutional dimensions,
right?

SPEAKER_01 (30:36):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (30:37):
Um, but if they put it up there for two weeks,
probably not.

SPEAKER_02 (30:40):
Yeah.
Um just going over to the chatsays as long as law enforcement
isn't facing betteraccountability, flock is a very
bad idea.
Right now, cops can do what theywant, and if they get caught,
most of the time departmentchange is the you cut it in half
here.

SPEAKER_00 (30:59):
Yeah.

(33:55):
Um kind of get the the the youknow, the the idea though is
just the accountability stuff.
And and I believe inaccountability too.
I mean, during the um the COVIDuh, you know, pandemic, um, you
know, there were agencies thatwere using drones and you know,
they were using it to forthermal imaging.
They were they were they weretalking about, and one of the

(34:16):
Dragonfly was the company thatadapted their drones to actually
read people's temperatures.
And they were also using them tocount uh to measure distance
between people.
And and then they had uh the PAsystem on there, and it said
that you know they were, youknow, there was a back East
agency that wanted to use these.
And then if they if the thedrone measured that you were

(34:39):
within six feet of each other,this is in public, it would over
the PA say, you know, separate.
Can you imagine living in thattown?
No.
Oh and uh you know miserable.
So is that a constitutionalissue?
Uh probably reading the bodyheat is probably constitutional,
right?
Because it's a it's a fact, it'ssomething that you can't see
with plain view.
Uh, but measuring people is not,but but yes, but that's mission

(35:01):
creep.
That is creepy.
Yeah.
And I think that if if themessage here is that agencies
need to be respectful and andalso have a balance here with
technology, then we're 100%agree.

SPEAKER_02 (35:14):
Yep.
Um looking at the comments, uhKingslayer said, yes, that
detective is stalking.
He intended to do actions, he'sjust legally allowed to stalk
you.
Well, then by your owndefinition, it's not stalking
because it's legal.

SPEAKER_00 (35:27):
It's not, it's not, it's not stalking because this
there's no criminal intent.
Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_02 (35:31):
Um there's to catch a criminal maybe the intent.

SPEAKER_00 (35:35):
Yeah, I mean, but it's not, it's not, it's not a
criminal intent.
Right.
It's no mens rea.

SPEAKER_02 (35:40):
Um Mike Cucumber said, I filed a complaint
against my sheriff's departmentand had sheriff stationed
outside my neighborhood andworkplace the following week
when that never happened before.
Coincidence, question mark.

SPEAKER_00 (35:52):
Um, yeah, I mean, look, I've seen stuff like that
happen.
And it and it, if it's true,then if if they're doing that
for intimidation, then that'syou know, obviously um not
professional.

SPEAKER_02 (36:00):
Right.
Um remove the cop element, theidea of how many cameras there
are watching us at any giventime is huge.
Tesla cars, traffic controlcameras, phone road cameras, et
cetera.

SPEAKER_00 (36:12):
Yeah.
It's it's true, right?
I mean, and Tesla's watching youtoo, right?

SPEAKER_02 (36:16):
So um shit, your phone's watching you.

SPEAKER_00 (36:18):
Oh, it unfortunately.
I mean, so yeah, so I mean, it'sit's when it comes to the search
and seizure stuff, right?
I will tell you that um the onething I'm uh that I have a
passion about and I'm on amission about is to try to teach
the Fourth Amendment in a waythat cops just get.
Because it's you know, and I'lltell you um a good example is

(36:41):
that a lot of officers believe,and since this is kind of in the
in the theme in the commentshere, right?
Is that you know getting itwrong or whatever.
It's this a uh cops believe thatif they mess up, if they violate
the constitution, but they butthey didn't mean to, okay.
I mean, you know, they they theythey were trained that way or
that they made a mistake, but aslong as they have good faith,

(37:04):
that that will get them out oflegal trouble, right?

SPEAKER_02 (37:06):
Right.
And that's what frustrates a lotof our audience is they think
that cops good faith itintentionally knowing they have
qualified immunity.

SPEAKER_00 (37:16):
And I'll tell you, but I'll tell you my opinion on
that.
Um, so the so but I think youraudience should know that there
is no good faith exception.
And my audience should know, thepeople that are, you know, um
that that push back on me too,there is no good faith exception
under the Fourth Amendment forwarrantless searches and
seizures.
In other words, what I'm tryingto tell you is if we have an
officer who, you know, chalks adoor, like he's talking to

(37:37):
somebody, you know, over someneighbor dispute, and the the
suspect here is like, you knowwhat, this is kind of a BS.
I'm done talking to you, andthey want to close the door.
They can do that unless, unlessthere's exigency, which there
probably wouldn't be, or awarrant.
They can close the door.
Now, have officers, you know,mistakenly put their foot in the
door saying, look, I'm not donetalking to you.

(37:59):
And the answer is yes.
I I think I've done it, right?
Um, you know, because I didn'tknow better.
And if I would have gotten suedon that, I probably, you know,
and and I went to court andsaid, But your honor, I didn't
mean to violate anybody'srights.
I uh I had good faith.
That the court would say, that'snot what we're looking for here.
We're looking for what's calledobjective reasonableness.
Were you objectively reasonablein what your actions are?

(38:20):
Now, good faith applies towarranted searches and seizures,
right?
Um, that ended up beingdefective.
So I think the audience needs toknow that the courts do have
that mechanism.
Now, qualified immunity, okay,we can we can definitely um have
a discussion about that becausequalified immunity is is I it's
a hundred percent legit in thesense of it's it makes sense.

(38:43):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (38:43):
I think it's broken.

SPEAKER_00 (38:45):
It is broken.
Well, I'll tell you, I we'll seeif we agree on why it's broken.
I'll tell you why I think it'sbroken.
But it's it's it the the ideathough is that when you have a
debatable issue and there is nocases or statute to tell the
cops what to do, and they end uppicking the wrong side of the
equation.
Should the taxpayers really beon the hook for that?

(39:06):
Like when they when it when eventhe judges weren't sure what the
law is.

SPEAKER_01 (39:10):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (39:11):
Okay.
And um, so uh the the probably agreat example is the GPS
tracker.
So the um, you know, therebefore Jones, this is the 2012
case, before Jones, there werecourts out there that held that
putting a GPS tracker on avehicle is a search under the
Fourth Amendment, and it was asearch under trespass.

(39:32):
You still trying to fix theyeah.

SPEAKER_02 (39:34):
I I got one more idea.

SPEAKER_00 (39:36):
Okay.
You want me to keep talking?

SPEAKER_02 (39:38):
Yeah, yeah, keep talking.

SPEAKER_00 (39:39):
So um, but courts went back and forth.
You know, A, you know, a lot ofcourts said it wasn't a search
because there's no privacy andso forth.
Um, you know, and so, but then,you know, then the Supreme Court
says, look, it is a search.
Those cops were still there weremany dish or circuits and so
forth, a few at least, that thatdid not know the answer, like
they didn't decide on it, right?

(40:00):
Right.
So the cop is gonna have to makea decision about whether or not
is this court right about it, oris this court right?
My courts haven't told me whatto do.
And then the Supreme Courtultimately held that it was a
search let's say that they didput the tracker on the car.
Should they really?
I mean, they're just trying tofigure out what the answer is.
I mean, even judges are confusedby it.
And that's what qualifiedimmunity is good for.

(40:22):
Now, where it's broken, I willtell you where it's broken, uh,
and in I don't know if youropinion is going to be this, but
the part I don't like about itis that you have a court that
says, you know what, theconstitution was violated.
You shouldn't have done it.
But because it wasn't clearlyestablished.
Yes.

(40:42):
We already agree.
Yep, yeah, you you walk.
Like you, you don't, you don'tpay this person a dime.
So I call that the the the onefree by the apple problem.
So you got this, and it reallywhat I really don't like is, you
know, and I think it's unfair,is that you have this attorney
who is suing the police, okay?
And he's like, You violated theconstitution.

(41:03):
And the court says, you arecorrect.
And then the court says, butbecause you are you are blazing
this trail that has never beenblazed before, because you blaze
this trail and it's never beenclearly established, you don't
get one dime.
Period.
Get get out of here.
They don't give you don't getone dime because of qualified
immunity.
But the next guy behind you getspaid.

(41:26):
That's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 (41:27):
That's wrong.

SPEAKER_00 (41:28):
It's wrong.
Yeah, you know, that part iswrong.
I mean, yeah, you know, it it'sit's so maybe the compromise is,
you know, some nominal damageshere.
Like, okay, attorney, you did,you did prove to the court on
behalf of your client that theconstitution was violated.
You should get something forthat.
You should get rewarded for yourhard work because it is hard.
And remember, when when a when aj when an attorney um you know

(41:52):
wins these cases, they're goingup to an appellate level,
whether it's a circuit level, aSupreme Court, the U.S.
Supreme Court, it's a lot ofhard work.
And then they get hit with noqualified immunity, so they
leave um out of all those, youknow, sometimes thousands of
hours of legal work, they getnothing.
That's not right.

SPEAKER_02 (42:09):
Yeah.
And then, okay, so another thingthat I again, guys, I'm not a
lawyer, so luckily we have oneand knows the shit.
Another part that people I don'tknow if they don't understand or
because of the, you know, noprevious cases that match it.
But one of the things thatpeople understand, they won't,
they're like, get rid ofqualified immunity.

(42:30):
I'm like, listen, if a copactually makes screws up
criminally, yeah, and it thejudge says, Yeah, you you
behaved criminally, you losequalified immunity.

SPEAKER_00 (42:38):
You don't well, you have criminal charges.

SPEAKER_02 (42:40):
Right.
So in that, you you don't haveQI anymore, correct?
Is that true?

SPEAKER_00 (42:44):
That's not true?
No, because there was um uh, youknow, I don't look, uh, these
are these are controversial inthe sense of, you know, oh my
god, because I even I thinkthey're unfair, but there was a
cop in um in California whostole money.
And and so not only did he get,you know, charged, but he they
also sued.
And uh the it was a complicatedcase, but the he got qualified

(43:05):
immunity.
He says that the court said itwasn't clearly established that
under these facts he couldn'ttake the money.
Or it wasn't like aconstitutional deprivation or
something like that.
Yeah, it was kind of stupid.
But um but look, but the butwhen you have it when you have
criminal charges, you know,usually you do have a
deprivation of of of theConstitution.
I'm just saying, you know, youask the question is is that
true?
You you can actually havecriminal acts and you can have

(43:28):
qualified immunity.

SPEAKER_02 (43:29):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (43:29):
But it is rare.

SPEAKER_02 (43:31):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (43:31):
It is rare.

SPEAKER_02 (43:32):
But but that that's that's one of the ways QI gets
taken away possible.

SPEAKER_00 (43:36):
No for sure.
Well it's one of the ways youdon't have you know it's not
taken away the one way you don'thave QI because committing
criminal like batteringsomebody, right?
Okay, that's probably the bestexample is that when you when a
cop you know engages in streetjustice and so forth that that
that's obviously not only isthat battery, you know, but or
you know oppression of the colorlaw, all these violations, but

(43:57):
also it's it's clearlyestablished that you can't dump
on people without reason, youknow, without a use of force,
Graham versus Connor analogy,right?
So, you know, you're gonnayou're gonna have a cop that
goes to jail, hopefully, if theycommitted a crime or get charged
and get convicted.
And you're gonna have an agencythat pays money.
Which is which is the rightanswer.

SPEAKER_02 (44:16):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (44:17):
Which is the right answer.

SPEAKER_02 (44:18):
Um the Don Dunpeel said I understand why qualified
immunity was established toprotect officers against
frivolous lawsuits.
It seems to me that officers areactually earning the lawsuits.

SPEAKER_00 (44:30):
They do they well they do earn some lawsuits.
I mean look I mean I I'm I Ishow these videos in my class I
show videos of officersviolating clear law like and I'm
and these are cases that havenot even been decided yet.

SPEAKER_01 (44:42):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (44:42):
But I'm showing these cops these videos I'm like
hey look do you think this copdid the right thing?
You know we had a cop inCalifornia he was responding to
a fireworks complaint and by thetime he got there the fireworks
weren't being you know shot offwhatever but he's Oh that's the
was that the one that goesinside yes he says I own this
house right yeah um and that copclearly messed up yeah based on

(45:05):
what we know about the caseright you know there's I don't
want to you know say if if hecalls him says Anthony did you
also know that this was that heshot they shot somebody you know
I'm like I didn't know that youdidn't say anything about it.
But the point is based on whatwe see in that video that's
clearly established that youcan't do that.
And you should pay her money.
Because if it happened to me Iwant money too.

SPEAKER_02 (45:23):
Yeah yeah and it was so egregious like how he thought
he had any claim to be in thathouse was was crazy.
Beckham UK Han Live said tryingto get a prosecutor to press
charges is a one in a millionshot.
Even having one cop chargeanother is rare.
Rational basis does not apply toeither situation yet they try.

SPEAKER_00 (45:45):
That's true.
I mean the the the reality isthat it it it is very rare that
prosecutors take criminal act uhcriminal action against cops
that do commit crimes in a in ain a literal sense okay we're
not you know look we're nottalking about the the big cases
and so forth but even the minorones it is rare I mean you'd be
lying to say if it's like usingNCIC to look up somebody that

(46:06):
they're not that that's a that'sillegal.
You can't yeah I I call that youknow uh you know running a
background check on yourbabysitter is a crime but you
ain't gonna get charged for thatand and and one of the reasons
why is you know all prosecutorshave discretion police have
discretion and you know part ofthat discretion you know um
there there's often like bulletpoints that just kind of

(46:27):
consider and one of the thingsis has this issue been resolved
in another with another way andagency discipline is part of
justice like you know if if aperson working at the car wash
you know does something elite umillegal their job usually is not
going to re resolve that issueyou know I mean right like for
example um well maybe they getfired but but cops do have a

(46:49):
real you know the the agencieswith internal affairs do have a
legitimate mechanism to topunish police officers for their
misconduct and so that's justpart of it or they get fired and
maybe that's a you know teachesthem a lesson and so forth.
But no it's it's true.

SPEAKER_02 (47:02):
A lot of I mean one of the problems with hiring of
police in general is these copsthat get fired.
We have no national registrywith law enforcement and I but
I'm of the opinion we shouldhave one.
Yeah if you leave underinvestigation if you are allowed
to resign if you had criminalcharges or whatever it is like
that should all be a part of a abackground check that we all

(47:25):
have access to.

SPEAKER_00 (47:27):
I agree.
And so um that was tried um Iguess it you know hasn't been
implemented yet obviously butyeah they started it and then it
kind of like they lost thefederal funding for it or
something like that.
Yeah it fizzled out but but youknow but when you when you apply
for a cop job for most placesare going to ask you have you
ever you know have you been acop before did what why'd you
leave?
But let's let's be let's behonest here I mean there are a

(47:49):
lot of small departments outthere that are so desperate for
personnel that they do hirepeople with checkered pass or
people that are not completelybeing clean about what happened
at the last last agency.
Yeah at least that databasewould show them like yeah you
did work for Mayberry PD it didsay you know you were
terminated.
Let's let's call Mayberry andfind that or you know and there

(48:09):
could be some um you know someinformation in that file that
actually is uh you know that'sprivate but that the new agency
could see if if they had a uh alegitimate reason.

SPEAKER_02 (48:19):
Yeah um Mr.
Billfo we actually had him onhe's one of our um dedicated
followers that uh he debatedwith von clean um from force
science if you know him at allum he goes to he he he's also
lawyer got his he used to be acop um his specialty is use of
force yep so he's always talkingabout use of force stuff but

(48:40):
they got in a debate um live anddiscussed why they were for
qualified immunity and not forqualified immunity and um to the
point that you and I just agreedon I think he logged in just a
little late but uh Mr.
Billfold we we just discussed itthis is the same thing we don't
like about qualified immunity isthe minute factual difference to
destroy the clearly establishednature of violations.

(49:02):
Oh he was kneeling he waskneeling not prone different
fact scenario not clearlyestablished.
Yeah I'm not sure if I have anycomment but yeah yeah so um
let's see here going to theinternals affairs if read some
IA reports and compared thevideo with the report 90% of the

(49:23):
time I thought I watched anothervideo.

SPEAKER_00 (49:25):
Yeah that's okay let's let's talk about that um I
think your your audienceespecially the the nonpolice
officers need to appreciate thisthat is absolutely true that is
absolutely true um the vastmajority of complaints by the
public are absolutelyembellished some are outright
frivolous okay the the the thethese these quote unquote

(49:48):
victims of police brutalitymisconduct and so forth
absolutely for the majority areare lying okay I'm not saying
that the event did not occur tosome degree yeah they were
stopped by the police but thelanguage that they're saying
that the cops are using or theway that they were treated it's
it's the vast majority isthere's just embellishments in

(50:08):
there.
The body worn camera hasabsolutely uh fixed a lot of
this issue but how many times Imean you know you've been around
for a minute um especiallybefore body well you know let's
say uh in-car cameras you knowthat's what I had in my day
right yeah and I would tell thiscomplaint hey look I you know
I'm listening to you andobviously making some serious
allegations but I do want youalso to know that that we there

(50:29):
is an in-car camera and so youknow the the trooper is mic'd up
we're gonna be able to hear whathe says and we're gonna be able
to see what he does um is is hisvideo and audio gonna be
consistent with your accusationsand if not do you want to you
know do you want to edit and youknow update your your complaint
and um a lot of times they willdo it sometimes they won't but

(50:52):
when you watch that video it'salmost always different.

SPEAKER_02 (50:54):
Yeah yep absolutely um I've I've noticed as a
supervisor in the field I wouldyou know kind of try to squash
some complaints before they getstarted like now listen I've got
the technology is to this pointnow I can go watch this body cam
footage right now.
Yep like I don't need to wait.
So I'm gonna go watch thisbefore I do just know that

(51:16):
you're you're about to you knowbasically sign a sworn
statement.
Yeah and that's a crime if ifyou're lying.
Yeah if we can improve that youyou know yeah yeah committed
perjury and something yes um andin every time I'm like so what
do you want to happen?
And they don't want nothing tohappen.
So um Mr Billfold said why is itnever discussed that the Supreme
Court ignored thenotwithstanding clause that was

(51:39):
originally in the US code in1983.

SPEAKER_00 (51:42):
I I actually don't know what he's talking about.
So uh if if if you want to putsomething more in there and and
you know um I teach 1983 butthat particular I'm not sure
what the notwithstanding isreferring to okay without seeing
it.

SPEAKER_02 (51:54):
Yeah I have no clue.
I'm sure he's brought it up onhere before but I don't have the
memory I have a memory of agoldfish so it doesn't help me.
But Anthony, what about copsthat embellish and the video
shows something completelydifferent.

SPEAKER_00 (52:08):
We have a mechanism for that cops get in trouble for
that you know I mean they theythat that's if that happens the
cops are held accountable.
I mean it's very rare that wehave a cop who's caught lying
who's not held accountable.
It does I mean look there'salways exceptions they rule and
if you if you want to talk aboutmisconduct let's talk about
doctors okay how many people aredying at uh at the hands of of

(52:28):
malpractice okay so I mean I Ithe number I heard last time and
I and I'm you know I don't holdme to it but it's like 600,000
people are dying uh a year wherethere is some connection to
malpractice.
Okay.
So yes I'm I'm I'm not here youknow uh saying that the cops are
perfect but but but but the theprofession of policing is

(52:51):
absolutely without a doubt themost accountable profession on
earth.
No profession holds their peopleas accountable than police
officers.
No that I'm telling you doctorsdon't lawyers don't my my state
bar I mean you know I mean we wehave I I've seen it personally
where lawyers are you know umyou know uh embezzling funds and

(53:13):
this and that and and they youknow and they they act that they
they they have uh you know youknow some unprofessional
allegations so forth and yeahthey get held kind of
accountable but it's not reallyvery aggressive.
Police departments for the mostpart are very very aggressive
with their with their IAprograms and and holding people
accountable.
Now can they do a better job?
Of course but think about justtell me a profession that is

(53:34):
like they have their ownfull-time IA guys investigating
their own people and holdingtheir them accountable as much
as law enforcement I think whatthe can the the follow-up to
that statement's going to befrom some of the people in the
crowd is they're not seeing thataccountability.

SPEAKER_02 (53:48):
Where is that accountability?
And I think that is it'ssomething I've tried to bring up
on here that like just my onedepartment alone that I'm at
every year that I've been thereit's been multiple people but at
least one person has been fired,charged every single year that
I've been there.
But that doesn't mean anythingif it's not a common thing.

SPEAKER_00 (54:11):
And it's also transparent.
So um that's probably one of theissues is that because somebody
mentioned that earlier it talkedabout how um you know internal
affairs or a person's personalrecord should be should be
public record.
And to a degree that's that'strue.
I think you know sustainedfindings and you know stuff like
that.
I think that the publicabsolutely deserves to know um
but there's a lot of stuff inthere that probably is you know

(54:33):
it's it's it's it's notsustained or you know I mean how
about I mean what's good for thegoose is good for the gander or
do we think that other publicyou know all public employees
just because you make anaccusation against a public
employee that that I should beable to go online and see all
those accusations?
You know what about uh you knowuh cops going through a messy
divorce and there's a lot ofaccusations in there but they're

(54:55):
just they're not true, right?
Yeah.
And so you know I I you know Idon't think that I don't think I
think when you I will say thisand just kind of go off script
here and just get like a like alike a squirrel brain.
When you put the public whetherit's politicians whether it's
the news media um you knowcommunity activists when you put

(55:16):
them into shoot no shootsituations they almost always
come out saying what?
Oh my God.

SPEAKER_02 (55:22):
I had no idea.

SPEAKER_00 (55:23):
I had no idea I had no idea how to do your job right
I didn't realize it was sostressful.
They almost always do that infact um I'm a big proponent of
putting them those people intothose you know those use of
force scenarios it's kind oflike this okay yes you know I I
I I I believe in transparency.
I am I trust me I'm the firstone you know and but be bad but

(55:46):
be like just realize that it'sit's not all black and white I
mean when you you when you havea uh a civilized society but
also as we get smarter andsmarter we have to realize that
you can also victimize goodpolice officers by by just
having a blanket statement.
Everything should be transparentum and it you know it's it's a
lot of it is it's not reallyworthy of of telling the public

(56:08):
it's private it's just apersonal employer thing.
But the uh the sustainedmisconducts and so forth should
be transparent for sure.
Kingslayer said how many copswho've illegally entered
someone's home have been chargedwith breaking and entering I'm
not aware of of any um usuallywhat happens in those cases is

(56:29):
it's going to be the use offorces right it's not going to
be the actual entry you knowright but it's gonna be the um
it's gonna be the the the use offorce but look I got to tell you
I I you know I don't know ifit's actually a burglary in a
lot of these cases because againwhere's the intent right you
know if I'm going in there let'sjust say you know first of all

(56:51):
let's say illegally right let'sjust say that um illegally under
the Constitution and so forthbut let's just say that I go to
a house and it is a verbaldispute between the husband and
wife and the um the you know thewife calls up and says hey my my
husband's getting out of controlhe's been drinking like a fish
and I just can you guys just getover here and just and help me

(57:11):
out over here I gotta I gottaget him out.
And okay that's our allegationthere's no indication of battery
and so forth, right?
And um you know he answers heanswers the door will not let
the cops in and cops just pushthe way in okay yeah probably
not correct in no with thosebare facts right now according
to some of the viewers uh heshould go to jail for burglary

(57:34):
he should go to jail for homeinvasion the cop yeah that's not
the answer okay he didn't havethe cop did not have criminal
intent he was not looking tosteal anything he was not
looking to hurt anybody he wasjust looking he just wanted to
help somebody the way you handlethat is with civil rights
lawsuits the way you handle thatis with complaints and having uh
a robust IA that does account uhyou know hold their people

(57:56):
accountable um you retrain themokay that's what I do that's
what I do for a living I mean Inot only do I train people to
try to not make these mistakesbut if they do make a mistake
bring me in and let me retrainthis officer so they know that
the rules of engagement.

SPEAKER_02 (58:09):
Right.
Um and that's a common these arecommon questions that come up
repeatedly that I can only do mylittle copic you know cop splain
the best I know how.
But I I try to explain you gotto have the the intent.
The intent needs to be there forsomething criminal.
And they're not meeting thoseelements.

(58:31):
The other one like when youarrest the wrong person or you
know you they let's say wellthat's kidnapped they're
kidnapping him now because theydidn't have a right to make the
contact in the first place.
Okay so fruit of the poisonoustree I get all that yeah the the
the stop was unjustifiedwhatever but it's still not
kidnapping because they put youin cuffs and put you he believes

(58:54):
he has the right to arrest you.

SPEAKER_00 (58:56):
He's not there to physically take you and pull you
away from somewhere with thatcriminal mindset that they need
to have they he's there becausehe thinks he's doing a law
enforcement action yeah you'renot you're not sending a guy to
prison for 20 years for makingan arrest that in retrospect
lack probable cause.
And it's also the same thing asthe Walmart loss prevention
officer who detains you thinkingthat you were a thief, totally

(59:19):
got the wrong guy, you know, hehe messed up and he locks you in
you know he he takes youphysically so you need
transportation for kidnapping hetransports you to you know the
loss prevention office orsomething like that.
Yeah that the the the way youhandle that is lawsuits you
handle that with complaints youknow you handle that with with
public disclosure you don't sendthe loss prevention officer to

(59:40):
prison for a crime he didn'tcommit that's not that's not a
crime that's not there was nothe the intent was not to you
know deprive of somebody oftheir their liberty for you know
for an unlawful purpose likesexual assault and so forth.
And so um yeah just I just thinkpeople need to realize that a
lot of these issues are not ofconstitutional dimension or or
or or or criminal dimension.

(01:00:01):
They're they're internal they'rejust us as human beings trying
to we we need to do better.
We all agree on that.
But let's not also you know sendpeople to prison for 20 years
for a crime they didn't commit.
And go and it goes the other waytoo by the way we're not talking
just about cops.
Cops also need to good job do agood job and make sure that
they're not sending the publicto jail for crimes they didn't
commit.
It is both ways.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:22):
Yeah um so Mr Billfold sent me a message on
Discord so he could clarify his1983 question.
So he says the notwithstandingclause in the original 1871 text
of text of 42 USC 1983explicitly stated that the state
laws couldn't block federalcivil rights claims meaning

(01:00:45):
state immunities like qualifiedimmunity were eliminated but
this crucial language wasaccidentally dropped during the
1874 compilation leading todecades of legal debate though
some argue the original intentstill voids the state defenses
today according to legalscholars I'm not sure I I I'm

(01:01:06):
I'm I'm understanding the thethe the point of that as well as
I I would like to but to me I'mgathering that because the
notwithstanding part didn't makeit into new bill like but we
don't we the 1903 is a federalthat that's we're in federal
court on that and we care aboutthe federal constitution so
state claims usually don'taffect those anyway people

(01:01:29):
oftentimes make state claims andfederal claims in the same
lawsuit.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:33):
So I'm not sure you know I mean yeah I'm just not
sure if I'm really uh maybe I'mjust not smart enough to
understand what he what he'stalking about there.
I haven't researched it but Ijust I mean we're if we're in
federal court and you violatethe Constitution you you get you
get and you don't have qualifiedimmunity you get jammed up.
So maybe that's what he'stalking about.
I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:51):
Okay.
Fair enough.
Um so I I want to get into somesome of the common things that
get brought up a lot um withpolice work.
Um and I I'm gonna lead this oneoff with an example.
Okay.
You got an officer pulls youover for speeding on the freeway
this is right down your alleythat's right.
So pull him over for speedingyou write him a warning the

(01:02:14):
officer is on a passenger sideapproach not that this makes a
big difference but passengerside approach comes up all right
sorry I'm gonna give you awarning here's your warning it's
a written out warning hands itover to him with license the guy
grabs it and instantly drops itdown onto the passenger seat
attitude no attitude really hardto tell from the video the

(01:02:36):
officer doesn't like it grabsthe ID and the warning back goes
I'll be right back.
Doesn't say anything goes backwrites the ticket comes back up
to the car issues a citation.
Obviously pissed off policeincident there.
But now the question is askedThe stop was technically over.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:57):
Well, that's gonna be the debate.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:00):
The stop was over.
Um, and did the guy make anillegal search seizure by
reaching in through thethreshold of the vehicle out the
window and grabbing that guy'sID?

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:14):
Well, this is funny because this is this is this is
the qualified immunity debate,right?
So if we're gonna sue thisofficer and say, hey, you
violated the constitution, youunlawfully seized me.
Well, the question is gonna bewas it clearly established by
handing him his uh license andthat warning that the stop was
legally terminated?
And I gotta tell you, I youknow, you gotta do some research

(01:03:36):
on it, right?
I mean, as a lawyer, you don'tjust but I'll tell you that I
don't like it, okay?
If if one of my officers didthat, I I would, you know, I he
would be called in, okay?
Because it is at least if it'snot legally over, which it
probably is, yeah, it isconstructively over, okay?
And also, I I teach officers donot, especially when the stop is

(01:03:58):
already over, okay, don't changeyour enforcement at that point
emotionally, right?
Because my grandfather, again,he was NYPD, he worked motors
for a little bit.
He was like, What do you expectthese people to do after you
give them a ticket?
Like, hug you, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:13):
They're not happy.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:14):
They're not happy.
Oh, man, thank God.
I'm so glad I got a tickettoday.
Um, look, I've been pulled over.
And, you know, I don't get much,but I do have a lead foot.
But I'm like, I'm like, the lastthing I'm like, man, please
don't give me a ticket, right?
And if I do get a ticket, I'llprobably be a little burnt, you
know?
Don't you know who I am?
Yeah.
No, but the point is, is that umit it I think that the better

(01:04:36):
legal argument at the end of theday, let's get qualified
immunity out of it.
Because, and can I just alsotell you this?
When I teach classes, I don'tteach about qualified immunity
really, because I think that's acop out.
Whenever I talk to when I talkto a lawyer, no pun intended,
guys.
Yeah, exactly.
Um, whenever I talk to a lawyerand I say, hey, look, this is

(01:04:58):
what I think the courts arelooking for here, right?
I think that once the cop handedhis ID and his ticket to this
guy, the stop is over.
This is it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:06):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:07):
And then I'll have police attorneys, like advisors
and so forth.
Well, you know, but we'll justuh we'll probably just get
qualified immunity on that.
I'm like, That's your attitude,dude.
That's your attitude.
And I gotta tell you, nothingmakes my blood boil more.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:21):
Because it's like, what a way to, you're saying,
like, you're just gonna roll thedice on this?
Like, don't you think your copsdeserve to know at least what
you think the answer is?
What will the US Supreme Courtsay if they're hit with this ex
this this very question?

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:36):
And this is what the audience with what we do and
that I'm on their side about isthat attitude that other cops
won't even begin to to acceptthat that's an attitude with any
cop.
No, cops don't have thatattitude.
I I I'm like, they don't?
I'm like, because sure as hellare being taught that way about
some well, qualified immunitywill save you on that.

(01:05:58):
No, it should be based on is itmorally and ethically sound?
Like, do you are you okay withwhat you just did?

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:04):
That's fine to you.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:05):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:06):
Drives me insane.
No, it drives me insane.
In fact, uh yeah, I have arecent experience of that.
But it's like, look, we get paidthe big bucks here, okay?
The lawyers in law enforcement,and be in order to make these
decisions, okay?
Now, you know, look, I I, youknow, if if there have been some
some lawyers that I've workedwith, not worked with, but know

(01:06:27):
of that have made the wrongdecision.
And I and I and I wish I I tryto to try to fix them before I'm
like, look, I think you're gonnalose this.
You know, I I just I why are youarguing this?
Like, why not just capitulate?
Yeah, just pay this person moneyand get it over with, okay?
Because, but you know, theydon't want to because they have
a culture of, you know, and butit's like in and there's times

(01:06:47):
to fight.
Right.
But there's times when just belike, you know what?
I think my cop messed up.
Even though it might bequalified immunity, just pay the
plaintiff some money.
You know, if this happened toyou, you'd be probably thinking
your rights are violated too.
But I don't like it as a copout.
So um, it's a cop out.
I don't like it.
Just give the um, you know, givethe uh just acknowledge when the

(01:07:09):
when the people's rights havebeen violated.
Um, somebody's talking about thethe Texas two the Kansas two
step.
Um, I'm familiar with that case,by the way.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:17):
Okay, yeah, because I've got Rodriguez v United
States also pulled up, which isI think that's what talks about
exactly when a traffic stop iscomplete.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:26):
Um, well, it no, I mean, look, let's just let's be
frank here.
I mean, you know, Rodriguez doesnot answer the question you you
asked, you know, handing thatright.
Um, there I could definitely seea court saying, well, also the
explanation of the of the ticketis part of the stop.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:41):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:41):
In other words, if that officer so what he did
there is still different, but ifthe officer is like, hey, I'm
handed to you, but I'm alsogoing to explain to you, and
that's part of the traffic.
So if the stop may not be over,that may be part of the mission.
Rodrigue.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:53):
That's part of the argument that I made in that
exact video, is the trooper isstill in the window.
Not not even like stepped awayto go turn or anything like
that.
Like he's in the window.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:03):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:03):
Um, his lights, he's still parked behind.
I mean, so the argument can bemade that he's still on the
stop, but it's bullshit.
We know it's bullshit.
It's all yeah, it's a warning.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:11):
Well, and there's two different things going on
there, okay?
Just uh the the the first thingis the stop over.
That's Rodriguez.
Rodriguez says that once themission of the stop has been
completed, the stop is over.
Okay, the word is mission, andalso the other thing is we have
to diligently pursue the trafficstop.
However, we don't have thecases, we don't know what
circuit we're in and so forth,in order to say when that stop,

(01:08:33):
if that stop has been over.
Has it been in reality over?
Has it been in best practiceover?
Yes.
If the guy doesn't want to hearyour spill about what court to
go to and how, you know, and andwhat to do, if you want to, you
know, not fight this and justget, you know, uh go to traffic
school.
Well, actually, it was awarning, right?
So, you know, it it it right,and maybe the cop would have
been like, hey, just so youknow, you only get one free

(01:08:54):
warning from us.
Okay, fine, we can debate that.
But what happened also there,which was bad in your scenario,
is the officer is reallypunishing that person for their
speech.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:04):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:05):
And we shouldn't be doing that.
As I say a blue to gold, you youyou focus on people's conduct,
not their content.
Okay, we I really you reallyshould not care.
You you do care, but youshouldn't care legally.
You're a human.
Human, of course.
We care because I have feelingstoo, right?
Yeah.
Um, um, I know I'm losing myhair.
But the thing is, yes, it hurts.
But I'm not gonna change myopinion about what my

(01:09:27):
enforcement action is on you.
Because the thing is, one of thethings that makes this country
the best in the world is that wehave a robust freedom of speech.
And don't care about what peoplesay.
As George Thompson said inverbal judo, we have the last
act, they have the last say.
Let them say whatever they want.
But as long as they're doingwhat we want, and you know, the
guy took the ticket, he didn'tthrow it on the ground, you

(01:09:48):
know, like he's gonna ignore it.
He um, we have, you know, wehave the last act.
Give him this ticket and kickhim loose.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:53):
Yeah, left it in his vehicle.
Yeah, that was a that was that'sa pretty recent video that we
shared um that kind of blew up.
So, and that was the debate.
When was the stopover?
What was it?
And I my uh personal opinion onit was this was an
emotional-based ticket, uhaction, whatever you want to
call it, and that you us copsshould not be making any

(01:10:13):
decisions based on emotion.
It should be the facts of thecase.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:17):
So it should not just give you an example, okay?
Um, you know, maybe find thisinteresting.
But I I I was behind this car inum in Vegas, and it, you know,
it it blew a yellow light.
Okay.
I mean, well, it it it tried tomake the yellow, but it it it
had a red.
And so I pulled this guy over, ayoung man from California, and
um he starts giving me the theright act, right?

(01:10:40):
You know, call me a racist.
Why you pull me over?
You're targeting me.
I didn't run the red light.
And um, you know, I was kind oftaken aback, right?

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:49):
Had you even said anything yet?
Nothing.
Nothing.
Of course.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:52):
Doesn't he know me?
And you know, and by the way, itwas at night.
I didn't even know his race, bythe way.
It, you know, I just just justto add to the facts, but um, it
wouldn't matter, but I just Ididn't know either, right?
So he he uh he gives me theright act and I go and I get his
paperwork, you know, he he doeswhat I want, say what you want,
do what I say, and he gives mehis paperwork, I go run him, he,

(01:11:12):
you know, maybe a couple minorruns with the law, not a big
deal.
And I said, you know what, I'mgonna go back up to this because
okay, I'll tell you that.
When I when I uh was behind him,I was gonna give him a warning,
okay?
Because it it was a violation,but it wasn't, you know, it
wasn't egregious, right?

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:26):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:27):
So I just want to talk to him, make sure he's not
drunk and so forth.
And he does, he wasn't drunk.
So I went back up to him, Isaid, sir, let me ask you a
question.
You know, you you don't know me,I don't know you.
And um, you know, you you saidsome pretty offensive stuff to
me.
So I said, Why'd you give me theright act?
Like, why'd you just come offlike that, you know, before even
I can even get a word out?
He says, because you know, youguys are all the same.
And he says, I'm from LA andI've been treated wrongly.

(01:11:49):
And I said, What do you mean bytreated wrongly?
And he starts telling me somestories.
And uh I said to him, you know,if I if I first said, look, I
don't know if you know, I don'thave the other side of the
story, but I said, if if you'retelling me the truth, I would
hate cops too.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:05):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:06):
And I meant every word of it.
Yeah.
Because he's telling me some badexperiences.
Yeah.
Racial profiling, being beat onand searched unlawfully.
I said, I absolutely.
I said, if I, if I, if, ifyou're telling me the truth, I
would hate cops too.
And I said, um, I said, before Ipulled you over, I was gonna
give you a warning.
And I'm still gonna give you awarning because I really
appreciate you telling me whyyou went off on me, you know.

(01:12:26):
And I and you know, you're youknow, I just I I just appreciate
the candor.
And so I let him go.
And I and I was hoping, I washoping that maybe that's because
you know, I always treat peoplewith respect.
I I I'm a good talker, and I Ijust I believe that part of
being a professional is is justis being nice to people, yeah.
You know, like like PatrickSwayze in Roadhouse, right?
Yeah, it's a time to take outthe you know, be to be not nice,

(01:12:48):
but and so um the thing is isthat um people have their
reasons and so forth.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:53):
So yeah, discretion.
Um, Mr.
Billfold, I appreciate youputting that effort in on
Discord.
Um, I'm going to we're gonnaI'll have him take the time to
read it and look into it deeperoffline.
I don't want to tie up our timereading into a big thing on
that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:13):
Um, but yeah, and then city versus uh Houston
versus Hill.
I don't really think that's anaccurate statement, uh, quite
frankly.
You know, um Houston uh Hillprotects people's conduct as
speech.
That's not really the case isabout freedom of speech, and you
cannot get hit with disorderlyconduct just because you are,
you know, yelling at the policeand so forth.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:33):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:35):
Okay, but I mean it's obviously it's it's right
similar, but it's still special.

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:39):
And that's something we've covered on here, uh, not
not the particular case law, butyeah, just in the spirit of
that's you know, catch-allcrimes, disturbing the peace,
disorderly conduct, stuff likethat, is you you need to have a
complaining party, for one.
You can't just, at least whereI'm at, you can't just go and
throw out you're disturbing thepeace.

(01:14:01):
How are you gonna how are yougonna articulate that when you
and the cops are the only oneout there?

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:05):
Yeah, that's that's there.
There's an argument for that.
And there's also an argument forthe boat, you know, yeah, that
but but I but usually you wantto vic them because how are you
gonna prove that case, right?
I mean, right you can't disturba cop's peace.
Is that necessarily true?
Maybe not, but uh I get thepoint.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:17):
Yeah.
I get the point.
Yeah, they get um spirit.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:19):
But I do want people to know that people's conduct
can be regulated even if theyare engaged in freedom of
speech.
And that's why I just think thatI want to be careful with the
the Houston versus Hill usingthat to kind of try to transform
that into be like, oh, you canactually do what you want and
just call freedom of speech.
I don't think that's what theperson meant when they made that
comment, but I want the users toknow that police can take

(01:14:40):
enforcement action on people'sconduct, even if they're also
engaged in a freedom of speech.
We do it all the time, right?

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:45):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:46):
Um, you know, uh, if you have a protest downtown, but
they're blocking traffic,throwing Molotov cocktails, you
know, uh flipping over cars, andwhile they're at the same time
saying F the police, the F thepolice part is protected.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:57):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:58):
But not the Molotov.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:59):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:00):
Um, this is actually some good questions coming up
here.
Uh I was hoping we'd get into uhMr.
Bill Fold said that the biggestissue that he has with the
traffic stop is in fact aseizure under the Fourth
Amendment, but not treated assuch.

SPEAKER_00 (01:15:13):
Um Well, it is it is a seizure under Brendan.

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:15):
Yeah, it's absolutely a seizure.
Who's not treating it as aseizure?
As soon as I turn my red andblues on and you start pulling
over, it's a seizure.

SPEAKER_00 (01:15:23):
Well, I'm glad you said that.
At the point you pull over.
Yeah.
You know, we know that if youdon't pull over, it's not a
seizure.
But um, no, it's absolutely aseizure.
And it's California versusBrendan.

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:32):
Yeah.
And then um, so this is this iswhat I wanted to get into with
you.
Um, if someone has signed aticket but hasn't given their
been given their copy yet, canthe cop pull the person out of
the vehicle via pen uh v mems?
And or does Rodriguez count thatthat is an unlawful extension?
But I want to get into just penv mems in general.

SPEAKER_00 (01:15:52):
So that is for some reason, that case mems is is the
hot topic lately.

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:58):
It's abused.
I think it's abused.

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:01):
I think so too.
Um in well, okay, well, I'll askyou why it's abused, but okay,
so let's first of all let'slet's let's establish what this
case uh holds for, okay?
What's the proposition?
So the proposition is thatduring a routine traffic stop,
officers can order, you know, wewhat you know, hopefully
politely, you know,professionally, we don't want to

(01:16:22):
de escalate escalate people, butpeople, uh cops can order a
driver to get out of a vehicleduring the traffic stop for two
reasons.
Number one, for officer safety.
You know, there was an officersafety component in MIMS.

SPEAKER_02 (01:16:35):
Correct.

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:36):
Um, I guess they they saw like a gun in plain
view once he got out.
Um, but they also did talk aboutde minimis.
And that's where the problem is.
Um the Supreme Court really gaveus, they gave us a why MIMS was
ordered out, but they ultimatelyupheld the the um the order out
under de minimis.

(01:16:56):
De minimis is a Fourth Amendmentdoctrine that basically holds
that some searches or seizures,in this case, you know, part of
the seizure, some search orseizures, you know, it's just so
de minimis that you it's notgoing to be of constitutional
dimension.
In other words, if you had mestopped for a pedestrian
violation and you said sit onthe curb, which they do in

(01:17:16):
California every single day,okay?
Cross your legs with the gangmembers and so forth.
But they stopped these guys forflicking a cigarette, um, you
know, uh not being a crosswalksign, and they say sit on the
sidewalk.
Uh, it's de minimis.
Okay.
Now, if the guy doesn't want todo it, you know, you're gonna
have to figure out what you're,what you're, you know, what
you're gonna do with that,right?
You're gonna arrest the guy andso forth.

(01:17:37):
Who knows?
I'm I'm not, you know, but thepoint is it's really, and then
the guy sits on the curb and hesues later and says, I can't,
I'm suing the police departmentfor telling me to sit on the
curb.
I'm suing the police departmentfor telling me to get out of my
car.
It's the minimis.
But, okay, when I teach thisclass, though, it's called
advanced traffic stops.
I teach officers to have a goodreason.

(01:17:59):
Or I should say have alegitimate reason.

SPEAKER_02 (01:18:01):
Yeah, an articulable thing you can say, uh, I saw
this, I needed to get him out ofthe car.

SPEAKER_00 (01:18:05):
Correct.
Let's actually go back to youryour your home state here, the
great state of Texas.

SPEAKER_02 (01:18:09):
My home state's Michigan.

SPEAKER_00 (01:18:11):
Well, but okay, this is where I call home now.
I won't hold, I won't hold thatagainst you.
Yes, please don't.
Okay.
I I I prefer Texas.
Yes, I like I do too.
I like the Texas swagger.
So we have here in Texas theSandra Bland Act, which you're
familiar with.
And the reason, one of thereasons we had this is because
we had a trooper who told SandraBland to get out of her car for
really no good reason.
Okay.
She was smoking a cigarette.

(01:18:32):
He she wouldn't put a cigaretteout.
And he he she he gave her, shegave him a little lip about
getting a ticket.
And um, and just so, you know,and actually I don't blame her
one bit because she was herviolation, according to what I
know about the story, and if youknow more, let me know.
But she was she saw the troopercoming up hot on her ass.
And she kind of quick, shequickly moved over to get out of
his way.

(01:18:53):
Now he wasn't super close, buthe was he she saw that he was
moving.
Yeah.
No lights or sirens.
She did not make a turn, she didnot use her signal, but she
thought she was helping thetrooper out.
She got pulled over for that.
Okay, fine, okay.
But also she got a ticket forthat.
I gotta tell you, I'd be, I'd bepissed.

SPEAKER_02 (01:19:09):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:19:09):
I'd be pissed because I'm trying to help you.

SPEAKER_02 (01:19:10):
You're trying to do a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 (01:19:11):
I'm trying to do a good thing, and I'm getting a
ticket.
So she gives Lip about that, andhe says, you know what?
Why don't you get out of the carnow?
And it goes back and forth.
She gets arrested, and she endsup hanging herself in the jail
three days later and killingherself.
So the point of that story is Ilook at that video and I teach
that video.
I say, look, does the trooperactually have the authority
under memes to order her out?
The answer is yes.

(01:19:32):
I do.
I I absolutely show me a casethat says uh after the ticket is
written, you can no longer orderthe person out.
It doesn't exist.
However, did he do the rightthing?
No, he did not.

SPEAKER_02 (01:19:43):
Yeah.
And and and that is like one,the way that I teach it and that
I like to present it to officersis big picture stuff.
Like, one, why are you gettingthem out of the car?
If you can't answer that otherthan some emotional issue,
you're in the wrong.
Um, and I want you to articulatean officer safety issue.
Tully.

(01:20:03):
I think you should have to.
I think that that should be howPenn VMs is.

SPEAKER_00 (01:20:08):
Okay, now maybe, but but also not just a safety
issue, but also there's otherthat's why I say legitimate.
Like, what about just uh havinga conversation with them,
looking them in the eye, youknow, um, you know, trying to
maybe take them away from theirtheir their other passenger so
we can have a right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:20:22):
So when you say But you also have an inkling that
there's some sort of thing goingon and that can be.
Might not be safety, though.
Yeah, true, might not be safety,but criminal.
So that's correct to me,criminal and safety issues.
Like I get like that makessense.
But a lot of these times it'syou we watch it, like I said,
it's I think it's heavilyabused.

SPEAKER_00 (01:20:41):
Well, it's ego.

SPEAKER_02 (01:20:42):
It's ego, yeah.
It's controlled.
Yeah, our last episode was allabout ego.

SPEAKER_00 (01:20:46):
No, I I I uh we haven't, you know, we do have a
a huge look, the the the problemwith we have a huge ego problem
in our law enforcementprofession because we have a lot
of power.
And don't think doctors don'thave egos too.
They they have the biggest ego.
And lawyers do too.
Yep.
Because they're powerful people,they can they can they can
affect people's lives.
Um, and you know, with withpower comes responsibility.

(01:21:07):
And can I can I tell yousomething, Mr.
Donut?
Yeah.
All right.
Um when I watch police videos,okay, which I do all obviously
all the time, right?
The number one thing that youknow, the number one thing that
thing really upsets me is whencops act like jerks.

SPEAKER_02 (01:21:26):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (01:21:27):
I hate it.
Yeah.
And I get pissed, you know, andI'm like, I just I think to
myself, like, out of all the,you know, because we do have a
tough profession, and it's toughto be on your A game in these
somebody's calls because you'retalking about human behaviors
and so forth, but it's like, whyare you treating people like
dirt?
And also, even if they're not agood person, even if they don't
deserve your respect for theirlifestyle, okay?

(01:21:48):
There are a lot of people thatwe contact and we don't respect
their lifestyle, but we respectthem as a human being.

SPEAKER_01 (01:21:53):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:21:53):
And also, like, I gotta tell you, like, I walk
into the DMV, and if I gettreated like dirt, I'm saying
something, number one, becauseI'm past this, at this, I'm at
this age where I'm not gonnatake it anymore, right?
And it's like, that's a DMVclerk who has probably a crappy
job, not making six figures,doesn't have your pension and so
forth.
And I'm like, if I get pulledover or whatever, I see cops
pulling over people, I don'tcare that you think that they

(01:22:16):
don't have a good lifestyle,they're not living the moral
care.
You know, that that's probablywhy you're kind, but you they
deserve to be treated with somesome respect.
Yeah.
Okay.
And also it helps.
People give consent searches,they wai Miranda, they treat you
with respect when you treat andand now and actually I can prove
that it works because when youlook at gang officers that are

(01:22:36):
really on their A game, how theytalking to gang members.
They ain't talking down to them.
Oh, you POS.
No.
Well, you man, your mother madeyou raise you wrong, huh?
They're like, Hey, man, how youdo hey, I'm not oh, they'll say
this.
I'm not trying to disrespectyou, man.
I'm not trying to disrespect.
No disrespect.
But can I ask you something?
You know, that type of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 (01:22:53):
Yep, absolutely.
Um, this gets brought up quite abit.
I've uh I've argued um againstit.
Uh that Pennsylvania v.
Mems offsers safety as a keypart of its decision.
Lower circuit courts haveremoved that their removed from
their decision.
Second circuit made a rulingsaying cops can pull you out for
any reason.

SPEAKER_00 (01:23:13):
But look, that is true.
Okay.
And first of all Mims, Mims, yougotta read Mims as a lawyer,
okay?
Mims is the the Supreme Court istelling you why Mims was pulled
out.
Okay.
There was a safety reason inthat court case.
Fine.
That is the motive.
That's what happened in Mims.
But they did not say that youhave to justify a safety reason

(01:23:36):
to do it in the future.
They said this is why he did itand the holding was that it was
de minimis.
Right.
That it was just a somethingthat really wasn't of constant
dimension, which means forlawyers that cops can do it
without a reason because that'swhat de minimis is.
De minimis is when you do asearch or seizure you don't need
to need to justify it.
Right.
Okay.
And so it is what it is.

(01:23:58):
Okay.
However, the the the having thereason part is is professional
policing and it's de-escalation.

SPEAKER_02 (01:24:05):
Yes agreed.
I I I can't remember exactly howit was worded in there but it
did say that they found underthe Fourth Amendment that it is
a minor inconvenience orsomething like that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:24:18):
That's what they mean the minimum is yeah and
somebody's saying yes they did.
No they did not okay they didnot that's not how that's not
what the holding of the case isthe holding that case is not
officers may order a driver outof the vehicle with a legitimate
officer safety reason.
That's not what the holding ofthat case is it's that they can
do it because it's not that muchmore of an intrusion than the
original stop.

SPEAKER_02 (01:24:38):
It was a factor of the case not a ruling of the
case.

SPEAKER_00 (01:24:41):
It was not a ruling it's what they call dicta.
Dicta is Latin for extrainformation.
It's just telling you what theirmotive is why they did what they
did.
But that's not the as a lawyerthat's not what you need to hang
your hat on.
The holding of the case is theminimus.

SPEAKER_02 (01:24:56):
Yep.
And guys that's this this iswhat make this is what makes the
difference between us me tryingto argue some of this stuff with
y'all and somebody that does itand is trained in it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:25:09):
I'll also tell you that I do like the last comment
there.
It's a minor I also think thatum an argument could be made
that it's actually unsafe forcops to pull people out.
Yeah.
Yeah so I think we should have areason.
That's another reason why that'sanother reason why tell cops to
have a reason because like likeI'm the to me when I was a
trooper I have the advantage.
100% they're in their own coffinif they want to start blasting.

(01:25:30):

SPEAKER_02 (01:25:30):
Yeah like in Florida it's common practice to unarm
people.
I don't know what that that's aand that is not a that's a
culture issue within some ofthem departments.
Not all of Florida.
I know not all FloridianFloridian cops do this but I've
every video I've seen whereespecially like that lady that
shoots the the guy with his owngun trying to disarm him um and

(01:25:53):
he was completely cooperativelike everything was yeah above
and beyond and I I hate I I I II will look first of all you
you're talking to one of themost avid Second Amendment
advocates you know yeah outthere.

SPEAKER_00 (01:26:05):
I believe I know clearly what the Second
Amendment means and so do you wehad that conversation.
And uh the point is disarmingpeople is so disrespectful.
First of all, you're treatingthis person like literally like
a criminal and you know becauseI to me the people who have guns
and are telling you about themand that you know they have the
proper paperwork unless it'sconstitutional carry just the
fact that they're telling you.
It's 100% I I've never had aproblem with a guy that says hey

(01:26:27):
and he's sober and all this kindof stuff right 10 and 2 hey just
to let you know partner I I do Ido got my gun on me it's in my
it's in my ankle holster orsomething like that.
That's the last guy that'sprobably looking to kill me that
day.

SPEAKER_02 (01:26:38):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:26:38):
Yeah absolutely yeah and also it introduces a safety
issue when you touch their guns.

SPEAKER_02 (01:26:42):
And I'm not gonna lie it does help me you're you
you're less likely to get aticket with me.
I'm like that was fuckingawesome.
Yeah yeah yeah um Mr.
Billfold said Pennsylvania vMims the U.S.
Supreme Court ruled that duringa lawful traffic stop police
officers routinely can routinelyorder the driver to exit the
vehicle the court concluded thatthey need to ensure officer

(01:27:04):
safety outweighs the minorinconvenience to the driver.

SPEAKER_00 (01:27:07):
Correct.
So you can just say officersafety and just call it a day.

SPEAKER_02 (01:27:10):
Yeah.
I again I I still think it's uhI still think you should uh the
the the best practices will saybest practices you should be
articulating some sort of safetyconcern or or just any yeah
again anything legit yeah oryeah a criminal um so as far as
that goes um okay I want to getinto we we've been talking all

(01:27:31):
about the constitution um but uhparticularly they want to get
into search and seizure you yousee cops training all across the
nation now I tend to lean thatthe bigger departments that have
the bigger budgets they getbetter training and they get to
practice that training all thetime and that's why they tend to

(01:27:52):
do better.
Yes versus small towndepartments and and what I'm
talking about small towndepartments um you know low
population low call loads thingslike that guys they're learning
this stuff in the academy andthey haven't touched a search
and seizure in two years sincethey graduated the academy and
all of a sudden now they'reexpected to remember and know

(01:28:13):
how to practice what theylearned.
And and they're screwing upthey're putting their foot in
doorways they're doing all thesedifferent things um you know
searching cars that's on trafficstops illegally all that stuff
so in your in your experiencenow how how rampant is is the
issue with improper search andseizure and what are we doing to

(01:28:36):
fix it?

SPEAKER_00 (01:28:38):
I feel like the Pennsylvania Mims thing is like
the ongoing it'll never happenoh bro you're never going to the
only thing I'll say I thinksomebody said something about uh
I said officer safety orsomething else.
I think somebody took offensethat I'll just give an example I
think that's what they're sayingthat they're getting all pissed
off about is like if you had ayoung let's say you have an
older guy in a car and a youngfemale in the passenger seat and

(01:29:00):
you think that there's somethinggoing on there something
nefarious you know humantrafficking human trafficking
yeah I was gonna say you shouldget that guy out of the car and
have a conversation withseparate.
That's right.
That's the whole I think that'swhat I meant by that.
So I'm not sure if that's whatthey took offense to uh because
they keep pointing to the whatthe what the course in officer
safety but you don't needofficer safety yeah always in
every situation.

SPEAKER_02 (01:29:19):
Yeah.
I'm gonna I'm gonna put Mr.
Billfold in check here.
Um simply because the arroganceit takes to think that you
understand better about a casethat not only are you an
attorney you practice law thisis specifically like a doctor
that specializes on the heartthis is specifically what you

(01:29:41):
specialize in.

SPEAKER_00 (01:29:42):
And look I I've I'm I have the the best selling
search and seizure book inAmerica.
Like I've sold over a hundredthousand books you know search
and seizure.
So I mean I'm proud of what Iknow but I'm not saying I'm
perfect.
But on this issue I'm prettydamn good because this
Pennsylvan Penn Vern v Mims umis uh is is a case that comes up
all the time and I'm just veryfamiliar with it.
All right so um back to thestory at hand.

(01:30:04):
So um here's the deal uh policeofficers are undertrained
especially in search and seizurethey are usually get adequate
training and use of force.
And so let me just kind of takeyou down the way I look at this
and like the kind of like thewhere we are where we've been
where we and where we're going.
Back in the early 70s um policeofficers were getting killed

(01:30:25):
left and right.
Okay.
They were in a lot of shootoutsum the number of deaths per year
were around you know almost 300but you know uh felonious
assaults on police officers andyou know now it's way lower
because we have good tactics.
Like we don't go up to carsanymore and just like how you
doing fellas you know with gunlike uh robbery suspects come on
fellas get out of that car youknow keep your hands up and then

(01:30:47):
boom you know we now call themback.
We do tactical things and soforth we have bulletproof S.
We have good you know um toolsand so forth.
Okay.
The point is is that lawenforcement as a profession has
spent billions and billions andbillions of dollars trying to
keep officers safe over the last50 years and they've done a
pretty good job.
It's not perfect.

SPEAKER_01 (01:31:05):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:31:06):
But what have they done for search and seizure
right search and seizure hasalways been you know um no
offense redheads but redheadedbastard stepchild right yeah
they just don't give it the lovethat they that they it deserves
and out of every thousanddecisions that implicate the
Fourth Amendment because use offorce obviously falls under
Fourth Amendment um you know ahandful are use of force legit

(01:31:26):
use of force the others aresearch and seizure issues.
And so um now what has changedthat dramatically and changed
the paradigm right the that theycall it a paradigm shift which
is basically a mental a way oflooking at things differently is
the body worn camera.
And the and to me you knowthat's the one of the blessings
of the body worn camera isbecause we need to have an

(01:31:47):
honest conversation about whatyour officers are doing out
there.
They um you know in in myclasses I talk about the most
violated thing under the FourthAmendment is curtilage.
Now curtilage is that areaaround your home and it's also
the door you know the chalk inthe door and I'm not done
talking to you mentality butit's just it's just this
mentality that we can dowhatever we want on people's

(01:32:08):
cartilage as long as we we'redoing some kind of law
enforcement purpose.
But the the videos are comingout and they're showing more and
more officers not doing theright thing.
Now they have good faith wetalked about that their heart is
in the right place and notthey're just trying to solve
crime right but sometimes theirlust for the bust is not giving
them the right perspective theyneed to care about not just the

(01:32:30):
ends but the means.
In other words it's not just wedon't care just about hey
getting the guy in custodythat's important.
But how'd you get there?
Yeah you know and so um so Ithink I don't think I know I
know agencies are becoming moreand more um interested and you
know and and serious about thistraining issue but I mean I'm

(01:32:51):
going to agencies that are like20 people or you know or so
which are small and I'm likewhat's your training budget?
They're like$3,000 a year.
You're not gonna be able to do alot with 20 people with$3,000 a
year you know that you know butyet okay can I also tell you my
I just have stories foreverything.
Because I think because thething is like I I went to ICP
ICP is the international searchand seizure um you know right

(01:33:15):
ICP which is InternationalAssociation Chief Police Police
and I was there and I had mybooth and I had you know a nice
little island booth and it'skind of nice and it's not huge
but it's decent and across meare are um is the the drone
people.
Yeah Axon has of course the waitline you know waiting line right
yeah and I'm so I'm talking tothese chiefs and I'm like hey I

(01:33:39):
would I really like to come intoyour agency and train your guys
for search and seizure and I'mlike they're like we got no
money you know can we can we doit for free?
Can we host you?
I'd speak Texan by the way canwe host you fellas?
I'm like no that's me that'sjust we want to train your whole
agency and like yeah but we justspent uh 25000 on those drones

(01:33:59):
I'm like you know the drones aregetting all the love right and
I'm like look you need dronesdrones are the drones are the
future I and I really do meanthat uh they're as important as
the police radio but it's likewhere is the love for the
training you know you can youcan have all these tech tools
you can have the nicest cars youcan have the nicest guns you
know shit uh you know these sixhour P320s are so nice that they

(01:34:22):
shoot off themselves they even Imean yeah right yeah actually I
like I like 320s I actually I II I have a flux legion which I
love but um so I'm just sayinglike you have all these nice
toys but and it's not just me bythe way it's not just search and
seizure it's there's a lot ofimportant things that we need to
train our officers.
I mean that these officers aregoing out there with a lack of

(01:34:44):
training and the other thing isyou can pay now or you can pay
later okay but but Eric it's notjust pay now in in in lawsuits
it's also paying with officerswho don't know what to do.
You know, because I get thesecalls I'm sure my my phone is is
the is off but you know I'm surewhen I get off we'll have calls
and like man you know I had thiscall last night I'm not sure I

(01:35:07):
did the right thing and soforth.
And it's like we need to buildconfidence in a search and
seizure space because one can Iyou know because one of the
things that officers when theyleave the academy they just
don't really know like they'rethey're still new but even a
five year officer with a bigagency like Dallas and and so
forth they still have a lot ofconfusions about what the courts
want from them.
When I teach my classes and Iand I give them scenarios and I

(01:35:27):
show them videos, I'll say heydid the officer do the right
thing and uh they're like youknow and I and I pick these
cases on purpose because I knowthey're getting it wrong.
And I I'm like give me a thumbyou know thumbs up they did the
right thing and the cop's likeyeah they did the right thing.
I said well this officer'sagency paid two million dollars
for that for that mistake rightthere.
And they're like what mistakeand I said this is the mistake
and I said oh oh oh I see youknow we're not supposed to do

(01:35:50):
that right well I was try Iwasn't trained that way it's
like you know two milliondollars it's like you know that
and plus the sh the the themorale issues the lack of
confidence um I call it theiceberg theory yeah the the the
tip of the iceberg is what we'repaying out law enforcement pays
$250,000 in plaintiff payoutsevery seven hours wow and so and

(01:36:12):
you know that's just kind of howit breaks down right yeah and so
um it's it's a lot of money andit's like so I talked to these
chiefs and chiefs if you'relistening out there you know you
don't have to go through methere's other great instructors
out there just kidding there'sthere's not but um we're the
best in town but but it's likechief your your cops need need
more what they got into theacademy what they're getting

(01:36:33):
through at FTO is not right isnot enough and also the FTOs um
unfortunately are also teachingthe wrong thing can I just give
you an example yeah from yourfrom your great state so on
October 27th um the FifthCircuit came out with a case
called Sosito versus SanitBenito is that my is that's
sounds familiar.
Yeah I like when you say itthough because it rhymes does

(01:36:55):
rhyme and what happened therewas an officer was talking to
Sosito and he uh Sosito wasengaged in like a neighbor
dispute and something like thatand he was also engaged in
disorderly conduct now Sositowas in his yard and there was a
fence that the cop like there'sa like a little pony pony wall
fence with the gate and he wastalking the cop was talking to

(01:37:17):
him over the over the gate rightand uh and he was in again he
was engaged in disorderlyconduct so the cop had the PC it
was in presence so we don't havethat kind of issue and um the
cop says hey look you you'regonna have to take a ride right
you're you're going to jailtonight and Sicido turns around
he starts walking towards hisfront door and the officer opens
the gate takes Sicido in custodyand um places him under arrest.

(01:37:43):
Do you see the problem there?

SPEAKER_02 (01:37:44):
Okay well he just violated the the the gate he
broke the threshold for with nocompliance with no what we teach
at Blue to Gold is called crew.

SPEAKER_00 (01:37:52):
In order to do a search or seizure you need crew
you need consent a recognizedexception or a warrant right
here they had no consent becausehe actually when he turned
around and started walking awayhe he's kind of talking about
withdrawing his consent anyconsent that he would have had
that's exactly right absolutelyright if he would have went in
before maybe right actually thatthat'd be problematic too but
the um he had no recognitionexception he had no agency no

(01:38:14):
emergency he had no warrant andnow this comes back full circle
to our conversation we hadearlier about qualified immunity
the Fifth Circuit said all rightthis officer violated the
constitution it was clear it itis it it is a violation right
however you're gonna getqualified immunity so that goes
back to original issue thisofficer did the wrong thing not

(01:38:38):
a big deal but it was the wrongthing.

SPEAKER_02 (01:38:40):
Right okay it's not the the if he was if he was a
foot the other direction it's anarrestable offense.

SPEAKER_00 (01:38:45):
That's right but yet susito did not get a penny
because they gave the the the sothe next guy who does it gets
paid but susito doesn't get anymoney.
I I do think that's wrong.
As as just as a philosophy therehas to be a middle ground here
with between yeah maybe youdon't get the million dollar pay
you know something right you butyou but you got to give this

(01:39:06):
people something at least I meanit doesn't help Sosito but at
least pay the lawyer and I'm notand look I don't do this
business so it's not for me.
I'm just saying you know anddon't overpay him but but you're
gonna do this legal work youshould it's like and it's like a
Sicido if I'm a plaintiff'sattorney and see Sicito comes to
me and says hey I got this caseand I look at it I'm like man
that cop violated theConstitution.

SPEAKER_01 (01:39:28):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:39:28):
But I ain't taking it yeah and Cecilia says why
because I can't get paid it'snot clearly established in the
state of Texas.

SPEAKER_02 (01:39:34):
So beat it you know you're actually making the
system worse worse 100%.
Yeah I mean think of Roe v.
Wade that kid's walking aroundfull grown adult now.
Yeah no Roe vade Roe v.

SPEAKER_00 (01:39:48):
Wade so look so you know to answer your question
somebody had to be first yeah sowe but we have yeah exactly
right they're happy yeah yeahthey're they're they made it um
but uh but the point is is thatuh we we do have a lack of
training but I but I look at itI feel and I and I kind of I
mean this I'm I feel like I'mthose use of force instructors

(01:40:11):
that were out there in 1971trying to scream from the top of
their lungs hey guys we got todo something better like our
cops are dying out there.
Now my business is not dying mybusiness is financial liability
right so I like to say I'm nothere to help with your you know
your your physical survival I'myour legal survival right yeah

(01:40:33):
and um and I'm just like I gottaI'm trying to keep you legally
safe.
And I'm also here to tell youofficers out there that you know
this whole like you're gonna ifyou mess up you're gonna lose
your house nobody's losing theirhouse.
Okay.
The only people are losing theirhouses they're called criminals.
Yeah they deserve to lose theirhouse.
Okay if you're gonna you know uhyou know uh uh uh brute brutally

(01:40:54):
beat somebody you know um thenyou deserve to go to jail and
lose your house but butdepartments are paying big money
and insurance pools and so forthyeah and the argument's gonna be
that the if the cops startedactually losing money themselves
that we would have less powerproblems with cops violating
rights.

(01:41:15):
Totally.
In fact in all these people thatare like you know um on my
channel and so forth that likegive us a hard time with the law
um the one thing we can agree onI know is hey we need more
training because um and they youknow that doesn't mean that
we're gonna agree on what thelaw is you clearly we we we see
that right but you know I look II I see these these lawyers
these officers violatingpeople's rights and I'm like man

(01:41:36):
don't I mean if that was me I'dbe pissed off too.

SPEAKER_02 (01:41:38):
Yeah um King Slayer dropped five bucks in the uh
chat and said to clarify yep theStiegel disagreement from
earlier was banning one of ourco-hosts that comes on here said
um that a murder arrest warrantalone grants exigent
circumstances for third partyhome entry.

SPEAKER_00 (01:41:58):
Um I'm not sure that there's a case on that right I
mean what case you must be forreferring to a specific case on
that.
However um because Steagallwasn't about a murderer is about
a drug user but um but I I I Iguess I can imagine that there
might be a case out there umthere might be a case out there
that said that because he hadthis warrant that maybe there's

(01:42:19):
some agency there.
Maybe you think that Eric that'swhere they're going with that
yeah um and that would that thatwould have to be a real uh a
here and now thing right heythere's there's agency besides
this warrant let's just say wehave PC for him because the
warrants doesn't get you intothird party homes but but based
on the tie my my I see my handsgo over to your space but uh
sorry about that.
But um but you know but the buttheir agency the situation

(01:42:39):
because we have Peyton Peytonwas also a murderer right then I
didn't they didn't have awarrant for him but Peyton was a
murderer and they didn't eventhey the cops didn't even have
agency to go into his own houseto arrest him because it
happened three days ago.

SPEAKER_02 (01:42:50):
Yeah um this is uh Mr.
Billfold he's he he actuallyOpened my eyes to this before is
that of all these cops that dolose QI, even then, none of them
pay out.
None of them.

SPEAKER_00 (01:43:04):
Well, wait, so so say it again.

SPEAKER_02 (01:43:05):
So the ones that so he said QI prevents clearly
establishing any case law.
So it is a sick feedback loopthat prevents justice for people
whose rights have been violated.
And then he goes on to say that99.99% of cops who lose
qualified immunity are coveredby municipal identification
policies.

SPEAKER_00 (01:43:24):
All right, let me clarify a couple things.
Um he's right, and but it's notcoming off correctly on the QI
comment.
So what he's talking about thereis first of all, qualified
immunity does not preventestablishing qual clearly
establishable case law.
What he's talking about there isthat the US Supreme Court allows
courts to skip out, skip overthe first question of qualified

(01:43:46):
immunity, which is was thereeven a violation of the
Constitution?
Because if there wasn't which isthe really, isn't that the most
important question?
Right.
But in this, okay, now we canagree on something right now.
That this would fix a lot ofthese problems.
At least, you know, force thecourts to just address the damn
issue.

(01:44:07):
Okay.
And what he's talking aboutthere is that most of these
court cases coming on a QI, theyskip over it and they say, you
know, we're not even gonnaaddress whether or not it's it's
even lawful.
We're just gonna say it's notclearly established.
And I hate that.
Yeah.
I hate that.
You're already, you're alreadythere, court.
You already have the factsbefore you.
You already have a c a case incontroversy.

(01:44:27):
Deal with it.
Tell us what if this is wrong orright.
Yeah.
That's what he said for so itdoesn't prevent it.
It's just that it's a it's alazy way out by the courts.

SPEAKER_01 (01:44:37):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:44:37):
How do we fix that?
You fix it by the Supreme Courtoverturning their decision.
I forget the case name.
I want to say Hendricks.
Um, but there's a case thatallows the Supreme Court says
that you don't have to addressboth questions.
Is it a violation?
If it was, was it clearlyestablished, right?
You got to fix that case.
You got to tell the SupremeCourt, you know what, we messed
up.
You have to answer bothquestions.

SPEAKER_02 (01:44:58):
Sounds like you got some work to do, really.

SPEAKER_00 (01:44:59):
Uh that's the I that's why I have my uh my bar a
license for the Supreme Court.

SPEAKER_02 (01:45:04):
Hell yeah.
I like that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:45:05):
May it may and if I got may it please the court.
That's what you gotta say, bythe way.

SPEAKER_02 (01:45:09):
Oh, is that that that's the vernacular?

SPEAKER_00 (01:45:11):
That's the vernacular.
As you as you start your, youknow, uh you start your
argument.

SPEAKER_02 (01:45:16):
Yeah, I like that.
I'm trying to.

SPEAKER_00 (01:45:17):
But that was a good argument.
Whoever brought, I forgot thename, but yeah, Mr.

SPEAKER_02 (01:45:20):
Billfold, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:45:20):
Yeah, Billfold, that's an excellent issue that's
drives me crazy.

SPEAKER_02 (01:45:24):
Yeah, I I wasn't aware um of uh, you know, I've
I've heard of cops losing QI,and I'm like, I've I know what
happens.
Yeah, and then I you don'tfollow through with that, you
just think, oh, they lostqualified immunity, so they got
fucked.
And that's rightfully so.
Well, it turns out even whenthey lose it, nothing's
happening.

SPEAKER_03 (01:45:43):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:45:44):
So yeah.
Um, and I don't think a lot ofpeople know if I didn't know it,
I mean, I'm not saying I'm themost stout astute person out
there for knowledge.

SPEAKER_00 (01:45:52):
Let's say what's go up there.
Uh it says cops don't getidentification.
Go up a little bit.
What's this one's because ifthere was another identification
issue, uh there it is rightthere.
Uh, what does that say?
Cops don't pay identification,insurance pay at all.
Um, that is true.
And that's just uh, but I willtell you that has to be that
way.
It has to be that way.
Um, you cannot have lawenforcement in 2025 without

(01:46:17):
identification.
Identification is basicallyinsurance, right?
Identification is saying, hey,if you get sued, um we will pay
the bills.
It has to be the way.
No cop, I if if we lostidentification, if you don't
lose identification, agenciesprovide it.
But if agencies did not provideidentification, I would be the
first one telling every cop towalk off that job.

(01:46:40):
Because cops make mistakes.
Okay.
I've made mistakes, you've mademistakes, um, we all make
mistakes.
Now we may not have been calledon it in a sense, but what
identification requires, though,is these policies and these like
the laws and so forth, theyrequire good faith.

SPEAKER_01 (01:46:55):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:46:56):
Meaning if the officer acted in malice, they
don't have identification, butthey have to have identification
because the constitution is toodamn complicated.
I mean, I'm making a businessover here, doing pretty well for
myself over people's confusions.
Yeah.
And that's not right.
I shouldn't really have abusiness.
I have the largest search andseizure company in the nation
because cops don't understandthe Fourth Amendment.

SPEAKER_02 (01:47:17):
Okay, so let me get into this part because this is
um and and Freeman uh or friendsand codes, I'll read your your
thing here in a second.
Um no way.
What I know.
Um sorry.
One of the things that I try toconvey is that just because you

(01:47:37):
know the constitution, practicalapplication in real life
scenarios doesn't, it's notclear all the time.
It's not, you know, like wewatched the video of the guy
putting his foot in the doorway,and I I could look at 20 people,
and 18 of us are gonna be like,that's clearly a violation.
Like this was egregious.

(01:47:58):
Yep.
But there's still gonna be twopeople.
No, no, that's not.
Now you expect cops to get thatright every single time.
And I'm telling you, there's a Idon't know how to explain it,
but there's a difference inbeing able to read something and
think that you know how to applythat to any scenario that
happens.
And it's just not true.

SPEAKER_00 (01:48:16):
And Eric, can I tell you one other problem that we
have here?
Judges.
In other words, you're gonnasay, not only are you really
expected to know every singlecase out there that's binding on
you, and you're supposed to getthis right.
I mean, I've been doing this for20 years, and I got so many damn
questions.
I don't know if I'm right abouteverything.
I I mean, you know, I actuallychanged my tune on something the

(01:48:38):
other day that I was teaching.
I was like, eh, actually,somebody convinced me that I
probably wasn't right on it.
And we don't have a case on it,right?

SPEAKER_01 (01:48:44):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:48:44):
And it's but it's so, but here's the other thing.
It's like, not only are weright, but it it's um uh, but
you have to have you know it'sfunny, it's like even lawyers
don't have to be right, but copsdo.
Right.
Lawyers don't have thatstandard.
When I got my bar license, itsays I just have to be have to
have the professional judgment,but I don't have to know all the
cases, okay?
I I should, but if I go to, if Ilitigate something for a client,

(01:49:06):
I don't have to know, but youdo.

SPEAKER_02 (01:49:07):
And you also have time to prepare.

SPEAKER_00 (01:49:09):
I I I don't I I work in the ivory, I work in the
ivory tower, but do you knowthat you have to be a hundred
percent?
You are absolutely legallyobligated under the Constitution
to know every binding, notpersuasive, but every binding
case from the U.S.
Supreme Court, 650 of them thataffect your job, all of them
from the uh the Fifth Circuit,thousands that affect your job,

(01:49:31):
and all of them from the Courtof Criminal Appeals, thousands
that affect your job.
I bet you probably don't know200 of them.

SPEAKER_02 (01:49:37):
Even the ones I could tell you I know, I still
only know them correct.
Partly.

SPEAKER_00 (01:49:40):
Um anecdotally.
Yeah, exactly.
So for the for the per for thepeople out there, okay, and
hopefully I'm the microphone.
For the people out there thatsay cops should get their own
insurance.
Um, I want to make sure thatwe're on the same page.
If you go get a job at the HVACplace and you're driving their
company truck, make sure thatyou get your own insurance on
that too.
That's like walking into the um,you know, hey, here's the keys
to the company car.

(01:50:01):
Where's your insurance for thewhat do you mean it?
Why do I have to provideinsurance?
I'm the one working for you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:50:06):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:50:06):
It's just, it's just, it's I understand we want
to hold cops accountable, butyou don't do it by telling them
they have to have to take a joband then they also have to
provide their own insurance.
No job is like that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:50:17):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:50:18):
Um malpractice.
If you and if you and if you'rea doctor, you have malpractice
insurance, it's because you workon your own.
We don't have we don't haveprivate police here.

SPEAKER_02 (01:50:27):
Right.
Nor should we.

SPEAKER_00 (01:50:28):
Well, I don't know about that.
Uh uh, Arizona has the uh theposse.
The posse, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:50:32):
I I had so I had uh Mark Lamb on and and made him
talk about.
I'm like, bro, you got fuckingposse.

SPEAKER_00 (01:50:39):
I like I like the posse.
I think that's crazy.
I so I think we disagree there.
I think we should have some moreposse.
I'm actually being kind ofserious.
I think that there is value inhaving some restoring some of
the policing responsibly back tothe public.

SPEAKER_02 (01:50:51):
With you.

SPEAKER_00 (01:50:52):
Yeah, but they need some training.
They need some training.
And also let's keep them withthe big stuff.
Not not the let's they'reprobably not gonna go to the
homes investing in domesticviolence.
But I do, I I do wouldn't mind alittle bit of roving patrols at
night, right?

SPEAKER_02 (01:51:05):
Um, so Mr.
Billfold said all QI does isprevent new, or it's gonna be
hard for us to separate from QInow that you open that doorway,
but um I avoid it like theplague because I'm not qualified
to no pun intended, notqualified to to argue anything
on it.
Um, but um he said all qualifiedimmunity does is prevent new
case law that clearly establishour rights, it does not save

(01:51:29):
cops or government actors fromfinancial liability.
Anything to that?

unknown (01:51:33):
No.

SPEAKER_02 (01:51:34):
I think we kind of covered it.
Yeah, I was gonna say I thinkwe're beating a dead horse
because we we're of theagreement.
Qualified immunity is busted andit needs to be fixed, especially
on the clearly established partof the cases.
So we're with y'all.
Like we we agree.
Um so no need to beat a deadhorse on that one.
But um, I want to get back to umsorry, I want to get back to uh

(01:51:56):
training, fixing the problemswe're seeing with the police on
search and seizure.
And you've already kind ofalluded to it's a problem.
It is a problem, and now we'readdressing that issue.
Money being one, so getting theproper training.
Yep, um maybe not spending, youknow, especially departments

(01:52:17):
that don't have a lot of money,not spending so much on going to
the range four or five times ayear, yep, and dropping all
that.
Maybe, maybe you only go threetimes and you get a proper
search and seizure class becauseevery single day that you go
out, you're seizing something,more than likely.
Yep.
Uh just one traffic stop.
There's a seizure.

(01:52:37):
Yep.
Um, so you need to know what thehell you're doing.
You have to.
And in that, it's not just, andthis is the okay, this is the
part where we'll probably we'reprobably coming off as cops
planing.
It isn't just to cover your asslegally.
Yes, that's a big part of it.
I don't want to get myselflegally hemmed up.
I don't want to violate yourrights.

(01:52:58):
Yeah.
That's that's the other partthat we're not saying, I think,
that we need to kind ofemphasize.
I don't want to mess up yourrights.
I don't want to step on them.
So that's the other part that Ifeel like we're not saying, but
we should be saying.

SPEAKER_00 (01:53:11):
Well, I think I said it in a roundabout way when I
said that I teach not only toprevent lawsuits, but also to
give confidence.
Because cops, look, there again,I you know, we have plenty of
people that can, you know, I'msure, understand that there are
some bad actors out there, justlike there are bad doctors,
mechanics, and so forth.
But the point is, is that cops,the the 99% of them, right?

(01:53:34):
You know, they want to do theright thing.
They don't, just like you said,they they don't they want to
know the law.
They want to have thatconfidence.
Um, in fact, if they haveconfidence, they, you know,
you'll you'll see them, they'llthat'll fix the ego issue too a
little bit because sometimes egois like their fallback position.
It's like, you know, I'm a uhyou know, I told you this,
you're uh I saw a video on yourchannel about, you know, a guy,
uh, a cop who's trying to detainsomebody when they even talk to

(01:53:57):
the the sus the complaint andyeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:53:59):
They just went straight to the auditor.

SPEAKER_00 (01:54:01):
Went straight, yeah, and went straight to the
auditor.
And it's like, and you can seeit's an ego issue.
And it's like he doesn't likebeing told no, and he doesn't
like you know, people knowingthe law probably better than
him.
But but in that case, the theguy probably did know the law
better than him.
But if the but the cops need toknow the law the best.
And they need to be like, okay,you know, I like to say if
you've been legally beat, youhave to have to tactically
retreat, okay?

(01:54:22):
Cops need to recognize whenthey've been legally beat.
Because out of the reality isthat we do have a lot of laws in
our favor, okay?
And, you know, we we haveagency, we have, you know, use
of force, and you know, we havethese laws that can give us the
tools that we need to keep ourcommunity safe, but there are
also a lot of things that thesuspect has in their favor.
They can keep the police out oftheir home unless they have

(01:54:44):
crew, consent, recognizingexception, or warrant.
Um, they don't have to waiMiranda, you know, and so forth.
They don't have to consent tosearch.
Um, they don't have to talk tocops.

SPEAKER_01 (01:54:53):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:54:53):
So, and cops need to recognize that, yeah, okay, I've
been legally beat here.
This guy, the law is more in hisfavor than mine.
I'm gonna have to do somethingelse to solve this issue.

SPEAKER_02 (01:55:02):
Yes, agreed.
Um, Mike, cucumber in the superchat.
Thank you, brother.
Appreciate that.
And I just as a reminder toeverybody that does support the
channel.
Um, one, make sure you're goingover to Blue to Gold.
Uh, like, follow, subscribe toall their stuff.
Um, two, uh all these donationsand stuff that you guys make
with the memberships and thesuper chats and whatnot, um,
it's not going in my pocket,it's going directly back into

(01:55:24):
the channel.
So uh we appreciate that.
It gives us things like when wedo share videos and you don't
want to watch ads, like we putthat into the premium YouTube
membership.
They they tore me apart one daybecause we were watching body
cam review videos and we had towait for the commercials.
Oh, and they were they wereupset about the commercials.
I would be upset too.

(01:55:44):
So cheat bastards somebodydropped like 50 bucks, they're
like get YouTube premium.
I was like, all right, I got it.
So um that's funny, but yeah, sowe appreciate that, guys.
But uh reading Mike's thing overhere said cops can have
qualified immunity uh ifcitizens can have QI as well.
That doesn't even make sense,bro.
Um I can't sue a citizen, can I?

(01:56:07):
On duty.
Um you you can.
How does that I I've never heardof that?
Oh my god, imagine being thatkind of okay.

SPEAKER_00 (01:56:13):
So there's a couple rules here.
The the main one is that you'renot a uh I forget the doctor
name, but you're not it's Ithink it's called the the the
firefighter doctrine orsomething like that.
It's it's not that, but youyou're not allowed to sue a doc
uh a person if you go, let's saythey they they catch their house
on fire, and um, you know, andyou go into their house and you
get hurt, and you can prove thatthey actually did it on purpose,

(01:56:36):
right?
So your injury should and yougot hurt.
You got hurt.
You should have never got hurt,right?
They should never put um youcan't sue them over that.
It's there's a there's adoctrine for that.
Um, but I do know a lot ofofficers who've been uh on duty
and been hit, hit, you know, hiton by a vehicle, right?
Not not not necessarily inperson, but but their car gets
hit and they sue the insuranceof that person and they get

(01:56:57):
paid.

SPEAKER_02 (01:56:57):
Really?

SPEAKER_00 (01:56:58):
Yeah, that's kind of common.

SPEAKER_02 (01:56:59):
I've never I I guess I've never heard of a cop.

SPEAKER_00 (01:57:02):
But that's just but you're taking, yeah, yeah, but
you're taking, you're not suingthem as a you assume as a
private party.

SPEAKER_02 (01:57:07):
Okay.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Um, shout out to uh internalservice air 503.
I know who you are.
Uh that's Harrison.
Um, he changed his name or hegot a new name, but he did he's
delivering five uh 10 giftedmemberships, and I believe he
did a 10 earlier.
So thank you very much, brother.
Awesome.
Um they do go to random people.

(01:57:27):
I also want to give a shout outto Rogue Audit, I think that was
the name.
Uh Rogue Nation Audits is in thehouse.
I see uh Freeman saying hello toyou.
And I know that if Freeman isgetting all hyped up, that he
really likes you, so I shouldreally like you too.
Um if citizens conspire withgovernment to violate rights,

(01:57:48):
they can be included in 1983.

SPEAKER_00 (01:57:50):
In fact, that's actually why that law was
passed, was to go, was tobasically go after the KKK.
Really?
Yeah.
So it was passed after the CivilWar, and what was happening was
uh vigilante justice, right?
So um and and and mobs and soforth.
So the KKK was conspiring withlocal officials, local cops,
sheriff's departments, and goingand violating uh
African-American rights.

(01:58:12):
So uh they passed that law to goto actually have a mechanism for
for citizens to sue the the theKKK when they are acting under
color of law.
Now that's that's the piece thatit that needs to be established
is the K, you know, normally ifthe KKK is operating by
themselves, they're notoperating the color of law.

(01:58:32):
But when they team up andconspire along with local police
officers to do it and they arealong with for the ride, or vice
versa, right?
It's a 1983 claim.

SPEAKER_02 (01:58:41):
Oh, it's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 (01:58:43):
It's a civil rights issue.

SPEAKER_02 (01:58:44):
Is there any modern cases that you can think of
where that's a thing?

SPEAKER_00 (01:58:48):
Um hold on.
About conspiring.
Uh actually, okay, this is asmall one, but it was involving
a tow truck driver where um thethe the tow truck driver, and I
don't even really remember thefacts.
It wasn't, it was just I justkind of I remember because it's
like, oh, that's kind of weird.
Like they went after the towtruck driver and the cops for
illegally seizing their vehicle.

SPEAKER_03 (01:59:08):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (01:59:09):
And the court upheld it.
They can't they upheld that thetow truck driver and the cops uh
conspired, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 (01:59:14):
Was it getting a cutback or something
financially, probably?

SPEAKER_00 (01:59:16):
No, just just no, just something about just
something about just unlawfullycertain uh seizing the vehicle.
Oh something like that.
Okay.
But yeah, but it's rare.
It's rare.
Most because most of the time wedon't have, you know, we don't
have well look the posse.

unknown (01:59:29):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:59:29):
Actually, there it is right there.
Yeah, the posse.
The posse would and could besued under 1983 because even
though they're private actorsnot getting paid, I don't think
they get paid, um, they areworking on behalf of the
sheriff's department, and theycould be uh absolutely sued
under 1983.

SPEAKER_02 (01:59:47):
Ah, okay.
This is actually you guys areputting out some interesting
shit today.
I like this.
I because I didn't know thiseither.
Police raided Afro Man's homeand found nothing.
Uh, you remember that singer?
He sang because I got high.
Really?

SPEAKER_00 (02:00:00):
Because I got high.
And they rated Because I gothigh.
Yeah.
And that's they raided his housebecause of that?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (02:00:04):
No, no, no, no.
But they rated I they raided hishouse for some unknown thing.
And they I do remember that theydidn't find Jack shit.
Yeah.
Um, and they used they used theraid footage to sue him for
alleged damages to theirreputation.
Man, you can sue about anything,can't you?

SPEAKER_00 (02:00:19):
Yeah, probably.
I mean, you know, but look, it'sit's it's it's if the shoe's
under their foot, you'd probablywant to sue too.

SPEAKER_02 (02:00:26):
Yeah.
Um somebody said Pit Bulls andBonfire said, uh, Eric, I'm
curious about the video you putout.
The driver wanted the cop's nameso he could file a complaint
about him speeding.
My question, how would you goabout how would that go down if
a civilian did file a complaint?

SPEAKER_00 (02:00:45):
So I th I the the the flavor I get here is that
maybe the the issue is how doyou get the cop's name?
Is that maybe the issue here?

SPEAKER_02 (02:00:52):
I'm not sure.
I I don't I think she may bekind of talking about where the
cop put the ticket in thewindow, the example I gave you
earlier and dropped the warningand uh assum it it wasn't about
a name.
She said, I'm curious about thevideo you put out.
Driver wanted the cop's name sohe could file a complaint about

(02:01:12):
him speeding.

SPEAKER_03 (02:01:13):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (02:01:14):
Oh no, I know what video she's talking about now.
So an off-duty cop had anunmarked car, or it was a marked
police car, but fly by him.
He's like, What the fuck?

SPEAKER_00 (02:01:25):
Was it in Florida?

SPEAKER_02 (02:01:26):
No, no, no.
This was in Colorado, I believe.
It was some cold state.

SPEAKER_00 (02:01:29):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (02:01:30):
And uh guy flies by him, and uh the off-duty cop's
like, this motherfucker, andthen he goes and pulls someone
over for speeding.

SPEAKER_00 (02:01:39):
So the off okay, I think I got it.
So the off-duty cop sees amarked unit speeding.

SPEAKER_02 (02:01:43):
Yep, with no lights, no sirens.

SPEAKER_00 (02:01:45):
And then then that marked unit pulls somebody else
over for speeding.

SPEAKER_02 (02:01:47):
Okay, and so now the cop's like, you hypocrite,
motherfucker.
So he gets his camera out, he'sdown the road on the other side,
and he's filming.
So now the cop comes up andmakes contact after he completes
his traffic stop and wants thisdriver's ID and all this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 (02:02:03):
Of the person who's filming.

SPEAKER_02 (02:02:04):
Of the person who's filming.

SPEAKER_00 (02:02:05):
Who happens to be an off-duty city?
Who happens to be an off-dutycamp?
See, we're protecting, we'rewe're we're calling, we're
enforcing our own, policing ourown.
Yeah.
Um, and how do you do that?
Uh well, first of all, youdon't.
You you you you that personfilming uh should not hand over
anything.
And with those facts, right?
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (02:02:21):
And him being a cop, he that he he knows better than
the average bear.

SPEAKER_00 (02:02:25):
God and and what I look, I haven't seen this video,
but what what a what a dummy.
The guy, you know, come the copon duty going over and trying to
engage this guy.
Like he right, he's justengaging the first amendment.
He's a he's a first amendmentauditor.
Like, why would you even engagethis guy so dumb?

SPEAKER_02 (02:02:40):
Yeah, she said, yep, that video.
Yeah.
So um, and I he did.
He wanted the guy's name andbadge number.
Um, and then he I he wasreluctant at first, but then you
know, asked he asked for asupervisor.
Supervisor comes out andbasically lays down.
The law and tells them what thedeal is, like a good supervisor
should.
So I mean all the checks andbalances worked out in that.

(02:03:01):
Yeah.
Um, and now I believe that copis suing as he should.
He violated his rights.

SPEAKER_00 (02:03:06):
If he well, if he felt detained, which you
probably did.

SPEAKER_02 (02:03:09):
Oh, he was absolutely, he told him you
can't go.
He's like oh, there you go.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (02:03:13):
All I can say is that what should happen to me?

SPEAKER_02 (02:03:14):
Yeah.
Okay.
So let's not since we tappedonto that subject.
Um clearly establishingdetention.
That is another problem thatofficers have where you can see
it when they're not quite sure.
They'll be asked, Am I beingdetained?
Am I free to go?
Yes.
And they're like, I'm trying toget your eye.
Like they don't answer thequestion.

SPEAKER_00 (02:03:33):
I know.
Because that's part of thiswhole thing.
First of all, it's this part ofthe theme.
They're then they're notanswering the question because
they don't know.

SPEAKER_01 (02:03:39):
Yeah, they're unconfident.

SPEAKER_00 (02:03:41):
They're not confident.
And they need to answer it yesor no, okay?
And they need to haveconfidence.
If a per if a person isdetained, they say, Yes, you are
you are being detained.

SPEAKER_02 (02:03:48):
So can you can you clearly say before the camera,
if they ask, you have to tellthem.

SPEAKER_00 (02:03:55):
You should tell them.

SPEAKER_02 (02:03:55):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (02:03:56):
I mean, you know, have to, you know.
But yeah, you you need becauseyou come off when the cops are
not or when the cops are noteven saying if a person's
detained or not, that looks it'sit's like you lack credibility
there.

SPEAKER_01 (02:04:09):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (02:04:09):
It's a it's a it's it's first of all, a detention
is like the most ubiquitous,common, elementary thing that
you know.
I mean, it's it's you that'slike a first day of the academy
thing, right?
So why aren't you askedanswering the question?
Are you detained or not?
Is this person free to leave?

SPEAKER_01 (02:04:29):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (02:04:30):
And do you and they're not gonna be free to
leave, but if you havereasonable suspicion, criminal
activity is a foot.

SPEAKER_02 (02:04:35):
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (02:04:35):
Or a feat.
That's a lot more, even moresuspicion.

SPEAKER_02 (02:04:38):
Um, red tag 7915, I believe he's on your channel, or
she said, Where do you sendquestions for this?
Just in the comments, guys.
Um, we can see them.
Yeah, we see them as they'recoming up.
Where uh we grab them as we can.
Um, obviously, we we don't wantto interrupt uh free throw
flowing thoughts.
So this is part of the fun partabout doing a live stream

(02:04:59):
interview style podcast, is uhwe're we're still getting the
the material that we want totalk about, which is search and
seizure with officers and wherethey're screwing up and the
constitution and how we'retrying to make that better.
But at the same time, we'regoing down rabbit holes with
y'all with your questions.
So we we do appreciate it.
Throw those in there.
Um Pitbulls and Bonfire said,internal, I think it's it that

(02:05:21):
it is appropriate.
Um if a cop doesn't answer thequestion, if I'm detained, then
I'm not detained.

SPEAKER_00 (02:05:29):
I agree.

SPEAKER_02 (02:05:29):
I agree.

SPEAKER_00 (02:05:30):
I agree 100%.
Walk away.

SPEAKER_02 (02:05:31):
Yep.
And then hope to God they grabyou.

SPEAKER_00 (02:05:35):
And hope and yeah, and hope to God that they don't
have reasonable suspicion.
Because if they do havereasonable suspicion, then I
think you're gonna lose thatcase.
Because you're not, you're notgonna qualify immunity.
You're not gonna find a case outthere that says if you do not
tell people they're detained,then you then you that's not
detention.
It's gonna be a show ofauthority, right?

SPEAKER_02 (02:05:53):
And it's gonna be based on reasonableness.

SPEAKER_00 (02:05:55):
Correct.
And if you have a show ofauthority and a reasonable
person, not feel free to leave,but they also had reasonable
suspicion.
So it's just it's just one ofthese things, right?
Uh talk about cartilage.
You want I can talk aboutcartilage.

SPEAKER_02 (02:06:04):
Well, that says cartilage, and that's what's in
your ears and your nose.

SPEAKER_00 (02:06:07):
Actually, what's funny is uh I got a funny story
about that.
No, no, it's it's actually it'sit's actually somewhat common.
Um, so I was teaching in in inArkansas in Arkansas, and uh, I
was teaching at the academy, youknow.
And I normally don't teach atacademies, I teach in service.

SPEAKER_02 (02:06:20):
Did you have the most teeth in that?

SPEAKER_00 (02:06:21):
I I probably did.

SPEAKER_02 (02:06:23):
I'm just messing with you, Arkansas, relax.

SPEAKER_00 (02:06:25):
And I could, you know, but this is actually this
it's going along with this thisjoke, right?
This the southern joke.
So I said, I said to these newguys, you know, these young men
and women, I said, Hey, I'mgonna talk, you know, I'm gonna
talk about cartilage.
And I said, Who even knows whatthe word even means?
And this young man raised thisand he said, Sir, it's that
stuff in your nose.
I like it.

SPEAKER_02 (02:06:46):
Uh I like it.
I like it.
You know, that gets everybody'sjuices flowing for learning.
I like a good laugh when we'retalking about that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 (02:06:53):
Um, reminds me of another joke I gotta tell you in
a second.
But uh, but uh curled is thearea protecting around your
home.
It's highly protected and it'shighly confused.
And that's also why we need, youknow, qualified immunity and you
know, just because courts havenot given us a lot of cases on
curlage.
They've given a lot, I meansome, but we are making some
judgment calls here.

SPEAKER_02 (02:07:12):
Okay.
Um, and this is from your page.
Uh red tag 7915 said, questionduplex.
Cops go to the backyard for loudmusic investigation.
Person is intoxicated, lowersmusic, person tells them to
leave.
Cops tell him to go back inside.
He says, No, I'm on my backyard.

SPEAKER_00 (02:07:30):
Yeah, I think he okay, so there's two things.
Number one is if he alreadycommitted the violation, which
is allowed music, right?
And the cops are lawfullypresent in the backyard, which
they may be, to help turn themusic down, they can issue him a
ticket, right?
You know, they can take enforcedactions, they're lawfully
present.
Now, uh, they arrested him forpublic intoxication.

(02:07:51):
That depends on state law.
Most state laws do not allowpeople to be arrested for public
intox on cartilage.
And that's the rule, I believeit's also in Texas.
It's not a vi it's it's not acrime to be on your porch drunk.
In fact, that's where you'resupposed to be, not in the, you
know, not on the street.

SPEAKER_01 (02:08:08):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (02:08:09):
Um, so you gotta, but but other states have held
that if you can you basically ifyou can see them from the public
view, then it's public intox.
I don't like those laws becauseI think it's kind of wrong.
Uh I think it's bad discretion.

SPEAKER_01 (02:08:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (02:08:20):
You know, I think get them for something else,
right?
They're they're they're uhtumultuous conduct, their
disorderly conduct.
If you want to do something likethat, if that's applicable, you
know, shooting their gun in theair.
Um, but to be drunk on your owncartilage is straight up wrong.

SPEAKER_02 (02:08:34):
Right.
Um and he said, E uh it is iteven lawful for them to go to
the backyard for loud musicinvestigation if the front door
wasn't answered, and is it legalfor them to arrest him in the
backyard standing on his steps?

SPEAKER_00 (02:08:47):
So the answer is probably.
So here's what I teach.
Um so the first thing is thatwhen the officers arrive on
scene, we have to establish isthe is the ongoing violation, is
the violation ongoing?
Okay, if it's not ongoing andthey did turn on the music, then
we don't really have any agency.
We can do a knock and talk.
But it but presuming that Ithink from the case, from the
facts here, that the music isstill blasting.

(02:09:09):
So the next thing is all right,we have an ongoing nuisance.
Now, we're gonna have somedebate about whether or not that
is enough of a of an agency toactually go into the backyard,
right?
However, I do believe that mostcourts are gonna uphold it with
the right facts because it isongoing.
It is, there is some urgencythere to resolve this.

SPEAKER_01 (02:09:29):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (02:09:29):
Um, if you're gonna say, well, they're blast,
they're they're they're blastingtheir music, they got the the
band, the live band in thebackyard at two o'clock in the
morning.
You've had 10 fuck freakingphone calls from uh from
neighbors saying, please, Igotta work in the morning.
This is built bullshit.
And you're like, I gotta get awarrant.
That's not the right answer.
Okay.
Judges also realize that, youknow, this they will just say
it's an ongoing kind of agencynuisance.

(02:09:52):
So we go into the backyard.
Hey guys, you gotta shut itdown, right?
And so the next thing is um, youknow, look, if they're lawfully
present, then we take care ofbusiness.
And that means that you can getthe ticket.
I mean, it's like, yeah, I'lltake enforcement action.
Or if it's an arrestableoffense, you could get arrested.
You know, some states are notgonna allow you to get arrested
for uh noise complaint.
But, you know, you could takethe guy with you.

(02:10:13):
Hopefully he's gonna be, youknow, he might be drunk, but
hopefully he'll be cooperativeand try to be like, oh, I'm
sorry, sir, and you know, talkhis way out of a ticket and you
know, and and be like, oh, itwon't happen again.
I got excited and so forth.
I got I got a new job, I'mcelebrating, whatever, right?
But um, you know, so the arg Ithink the argument look, the
argument's gonna be if he turnsdown the music and he wants to

(02:10:34):
go into his house.
So, first of all, if he makesinto his house, leave him alone.

SPEAKER_01 (02:10:37):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (02:10:38):
But if you can't put, you can like detain him
temporarily, like, look, you'vealready made the violation.
I am lawfully present, you aregonna get a ticket, and just
escort him out to the front ifyou want to do that and give him
his ticket and then kick himloose.

SPEAKER_02 (02:10:48):
Yeah.
Um, we don't have any mods onright now, guys, because this
was uh this was a bonus episode.
What's a mod?
Uh uh moderators.
Oh bonators.
Yeah, so they're asking for I'mdoing everything myself.
So the person that asked, whyare we intentionally ignoring
some question?
Um, I'm not.
I don't I'm trying to engage ina conversation and we're trying

(02:11:09):
to monitor the chat at the sametime.
It's not just YouTube chat thatyou're seeing.
We also have Facebook, LinkedIn,his YouTube.
Uh, so all of these chats arejust flying through.
We can't possibly keep up withall of them.

SPEAKER_00 (02:11:22):
Now, personally, I think you should have ignored
his.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We are just to prove just tojust to prove a point.

SPEAKER_02 (02:11:27):
Yeah, yeah.
Um but uh yeah, so if you wantto throw that question up there
again, um like Mr.
Bill Full gets it.
I know you guys are getting onhim earlier, uh, but he he
throws a question up.
If we didn't get to it, it'llthrow it up again because he
understands that this thing isscrolling past, and I can't
possibly with no mods on to helpme tonight, guys.

(02:11:49):
Like or on this one, um, it'sjust not possible.
But yes, the Discord link is onthe chat right now.
Um, you should be able to seethat.
Uh I promise you, I don't ignoreany questions.
Yeah, Mr.
Belfold just said Eric does notignore anyone.

SPEAKER_00 (02:12:03):
Um Yeah, so see, you know, you can but what Mike
said, you know, the sanctity ofthe home shall not be infringed
upon them for minor or trivialissues.
Um that's not in the FourthAmendment necessarily, but you
know, that's the whole problem,isn't it?

unknown (02:12:16):
But it could be.

SPEAKER_00 (02:12:17):
I mean, I'm just saying, like, what is that, you
know, that's not what the FourthAmendment says.
It doesn't say that we shall notinfringe the home for trivial
issues.
Uh, but what's trivial trivialto you?
I don't know.
I don't I think if I was livingnext to a a gang party, you
know, and they were blastingtheir music and I was trying to
get some sleep at two o'clock inthe morning, it wouldn't be
trivial to me.

SPEAKER_02 (02:12:32):
Yeah.
Um, to make sure you're goodsaid officers 99% of the time
feel that they have to get themfor something.
Anything, the us versus themmentality train into officers
has ruined officer discretion.

SPEAKER_00 (02:12:44):
And I think that's that's that's absolutely true.

SPEAKER_02 (02:12:46):
You hit the nail in the fucking head.

SPEAKER_00 (02:12:48):
That is absolutely true.
We we got to, you know, and alsolook, you know, we talked about,
you know, you you you mentionedabout you know, um, you know,
ex-military guys, you know,joining the force, and there's a
lot of value in that.
Yeah but there also can bethere's some major there's some
major framework issues.

SPEAKER_02 (02:13:02):
It's a roots in in yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (02:13:05):
Because you know, they weren't trained like when
you go to a boot camp, that isthe opposite of what the of of
of of constitutional policing.
Like they don't, you're notthinking about the Fourth
Amendment when you're whenyou're being trained as a
soldier.
Right.
So the only thing I would say isthat sometimes that mentality
comes from that military mindsetbecause that's where it really
you should have that mindset.
Like we're gonna conquer.
Yeah, nobody's gonna tell me no,whatever.

(02:13:25):
Uh, but I have seen officersstruggle with training when they
have a when they're tenured inmilitary mindset.
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (02:13:34):
And as a military cop, I see it especially.
You'll get this mentality from,and I'm gonna call out my
security forces members in theAir Force.
Um, that's military police.
They think, because they'remilitary cops in the Air Force,
that they can just transfer,just lateral transfer into a cop
job in the streets.
Where's the camera?

(02:13:54):
Look at me, security forcesguys, and every other MP for
every other branch.
You are not a municipal cop.
You are not a sheriff, a deputy,you're not any of that.
You're not ready.
You need to go through anacademy and you need to go
through search and seizurecourses, you need to go through
all of that stuff.
No abbreviated, no nothing.
You need to go through a fullfucking academy.

(02:14:15):
Sorry.
Oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 (02:14:16):
Of course, no, no, no, you know, it's definitely
true.
Uh, somebody did ask a goodfollow-up question.
Somebody says, Does it reallymatter if it's a gang party or a
loud party?
I think that's actually a verygood question.
I think the answer is no.
It does help, you know, that youmay have other, you know,
contributing factors.
Contributing factors, you know,maybe a, you know, but no, I
was, I was adding, I was adding,you know, embellishment to my
response just to make it moreinteresting.

(02:14:37):
You know, in other words, to bea victim of some of these
dirtbags that don't care aboutthe fact that they live in a
society with other people thathave a life too.

SPEAKER_02 (02:14:46):
You know, yeah.
Um, Beckham said, in regards topresenting documents at the
window instead of handing themthrough the window, what are
your stance?
My stance is as long as I canget the information, I don't
give a shit.
But I'll keep going.
Um, if an officer breaks intothe car to get the documents
during the stop, is that okay?
Uh let me go, I'll go firstbecause you I know you know this
inside and out.

(02:15:06):
And I'll I want to see if I'mwrong.
This is me putting myself on theline, but um my credibility may
get damaged here a little bit.
But the way that I read the law,at least in the state of Texas,
is that identification needs tobe presented as far as I need to
be able to get the information.
Um, it does not say that I getto physically and visually or

(02:15:26):
physically inspect a license.
I think it says visually.
You think it says that?
I think it says visually inspecta license.

SPEAKER_00 (02:15:34):
Well, okay, okay, okay, okay.
Maybe okay.

SPEAKER_02 (02:15:37):
But anyway, the point being, I I think there's
no specification that I have tophysically be able to be in
control of it.
Um I regardless, I don't need tobe as long as I can read it.
So if they push it up againstthe glass, which has happened to
me before, I need to figure outis the juice worth the squeeze
on that.

SPEAKER_00 (02:15:56):
Okay, I think you're saying two different things
though, right?

SPEAKER_02 (02:15:58):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (02:15:58):
You're saying that they don't need to do it, but
then you're saying juice worththe squeeze.
The juice worth the squeezeissue only comes in if they you
can make it happen, but it's notworth it.

SPEAKER_02 (02:16:08):
Because I know in some states like Arizona, um,
because I've talked to umFridays with Frank, uh, Frank
Slope, in theirs for their statelaw, it says physical.
Like you physically have toinspect it to hand it over.
Yes, hand it over to ensure thatit's a legit license.

SPEAKER_00 (02:16:23):
Yeah.
So look, uh, here's my answer.
I don't know.
Um, I've never researched thisbefore.
Um, I have been I I I havewatched videos from Florida
where allegedly, according tothe commentary, uh Florida is
not require them to actuallyhand it over, that they can slap
it on the window.

SPEAKER_01 (02:16:40):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (02:16:41):
And so uh I don't know what the law, you know, you
you you know the law better inTexas than I do, that's for damn
sure.
Um I believe in Nevada, you haveto hand it over um and be able
to, I think that's what the lawmeans and so forth.
But I will um so I think it Ithink it it matters what your
law says, but even I I but I Iwill tell you, I wholeheartedly
agree that even if your law iscrystal clear, you shall, under

(02:17:05):
penalty of death, hand over thatlicense physically to that
officer.
I believe you should not arrestsomebody and break windows and
pull people out through windowsand all the stuff because even
in but yet but yet you couldhave verified everything.
Yeah, the MDT comes back withtheir picture, everything comes
back.
They put the they put the slitdown so you can put in their

(02:17:26):
ticket to like a mailbox.
Like that, just yeah, just justdo your just go ahead and yeah,
just that that's one out of5,000 stops that are ever gonna
go that way.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (02:17:37):
And just get it over with.

SPEAKER_00 (02:17:39):
It's like it's it's like the same thing with the car
getting them out of the carissue.
Yeah, you know, it's like goingback to the Sandra Bland Act.
I mean, yeah, you do have theauthority to to order people
out, but why?
I mean, what the guy says, no,I'm not coming out.
And all you want to do is just,you know, puff your chest, you
know, that I I have this, I havethis authority, you know?

SPEAKER_02 (02:17:57):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (02:17:58):
Let him just let it go, disengage.
Just like, you know what,actually, get out of here.

SPEAKER_02 (02:18:01):
Something that I try to make cops understand is
you're contacting somebody who'snow having the worst time of
their life or their day.
Absolutely.
Even if it was speeding, thenthey were they were heading to
go get this, you know,$10,000work bonus, whatever it was.
They're having a great day.
The moment you pulled them over,it's now the worst day.

SPEAKER_01 (02:18:21):
Yep.

SPEAKER_02 (02:18:22):
And in doing that, some people's defense mechanism
is just a level of control in amoment of no control.

SPEAKER_00 (02:18:29):
Yep.

SPEAKER_02 (02:18:30):
And you have to recognize that.
And if their moment of needingsome sort of control triggers
your also need and ego to havethe control, we're going to have
a fucking problem.

SPEAKER_00 (02:18:42):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (02:18:42):
And you need to recognize that.

SPEAKER_00 (02:18:44):
Yeah.
Go to go to first best, um,right up there.
GT.
So yeah, he brings up a goodpoint.
He says, you know, I see whythey would want to touch it.
Now, I work the bar, fake IDs.
Yes, there's one key differencebetween what we're saying and
what you're you would do in thatcase.
If I go to a bar and they askme, first of all, if they ask me
for my ID and they really meantit, just not going through the
motions because they have to,I'd be complimented, but I don't

(02:19:05):
look that young.
But but the but the keydifference is that you don't
have an MDT, you don't haveNCIC, you don't have DMV
records.
We can, we can the police havethose, you know.
Now, if you have a cop who MDthe MDT is down, he's looking at
this ID and it's like, man, Idon't know, man.
This thing might beillegitimate.
And I I don't want to, or Ican't confirm this guy's

(02:19:25):
information because my MDT isdown and dispatch or whatever,
we have a problem.
I'm sorry, I'm getting I'm gonnaget that license.

SPEAKER_02 (02:19:31):
Yeah.
Made in America said ego is thekeyword.
It it's gonna be a recurringtheme on my on my show.
Um, guys, do you guys the lastlive we did was about ego.
We actually put on a course.
What we're doing now is we'retaking that episode, we're going
to cut it, repackage it, andthen it's going to be a free

(02:19:51):
guide.
The ego course, the whole egocourse is going to be on there.
If you find your department orsomebody else's department that
you think has an ego issue, justsend them the link.
Yeah, doesn't cost themanything.
It is literally a recruit classthat um that department puts on.
And I don't know of any otherone in the nation currently
that's doing it.
Um, and that class literally gotstemmed because of the podcast.

(02:20:15):
Uh the videos we were showing.
It's constant.
Yeah.
You know, um, again, it's it'sit's cops not wanting to face
issues that we have.
Yeah, totally.
And and be mature about it.
Be mature.
Yeah.
If we there's obviously a biggerissue going on out there if we
can see video after video aftervideo on the social media.

SPEAKER_00 (02:20:34):
Like I look, I think that cops should be more like
Patrick Swayze in Roadhouse.
They should be more like youknow, Clint Eastwood, not with
the whole hand cannon in yourface.
But just calm the F down, youknow?
Yeah, stop taking yourself soseriously.
It, you know, especially withthese minor events like the car
stops and the pedestrianviolations.
And it's just like these copsare taking themselves way too

(02:20:56):
seriously.

SPEAKER_02 (02:20:57):
Yes.
Yep, I agree.
And um, you know, and to likeMr.
Billfold's point, this this islisten, guys, it's I I can hold
cops accountable way more than Ican ever say anything about
citizens.
Okay.
I don't have that right.
I can't, if if you're withinyour rights, it's not for me to
tell you what to do.
Um, but to your point, just handit over.

(02:21:17):
It's a state property after all.
There's no reason to give policefurther reason to fuck with you.
I agree with that sentiment.
100%.
But if you choose to make apoint or make a stand, holy
shit, we live in a beautifulcountry that you have that right
with hopefully no fear ofretaliation from your
government.

SPEAKER_00 (02:21:35):
Yeah.
Oh, look, look, if if you're ifyou want to I think that all the
time, if you want to roll aroundand you want to play these games
with cops and that's thelifestyle you want to live, uh,
just know that, hey, cops arenot gonna give you a lot of
discretionary, you know, I mean,they're not gonna give you a lot
of breaks.
They don't have to give you anybreaks.
I do believe um strongly that,you know, that cops should give

(02:21:57):
breaks when it's when it's, youknow, because we're trying to
change behavior, right?

SPEAKER_01 (02:22:00):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (02:22:01):
And I don't need to give a ticket to everybody to
change their behavior.
But when I got a guy, you know,in my face, mother effing me,
telling me that your your yourlaws are illegitimate.
Uh, I, you know, whatever.
And he's like, well, to me,you're just telling me it's not
I don't care about your speech.
Um, but you're telling me thatyou don't want to change your
behavior.

SPEAKER_02 (02:22:18):
Yeah.
Mike Cucumber, thanks for thesuper chat.
Uh, he said to share a link orair raid to share a link due to
fear of retaliation.
Um, what was I?
I was just getting ready to showone of these.
I missed it.
Um Okay, so there's anothertopic that I wanted to bring up.
Um, if we did we hit everythingon getting police trained where

(02:22:43):
they're screwing up.
Did we hit did we go down thatramp as far as you wanted to?

SPEAKER_00 (02:22:48):
Probably.
I mean, I think we've had somereally good conversation here.
Um Yeah.
Uh yeah, maybe.
I mean, there's I I just wishthey would take it more
seriously.
Well, seriously it's not there.
I just wish they would put moremoney towards it.
And I'm not trying to be selfishhere, but it's just like, you
know, we just have some agenciesjust they they they they don't
don't have any money, but theyhave, you know,$120,000 kid at

(02:23:08):
Octaho.
And, you know, yeah.
And it's like, I'm sorry, like,you know, you you you gotta
pick, you know, you gotta yougotta pick your poison too.

SPEAKER_02 (02:23:16):
I mean, there's we need training.
Afraid, that's what he meant tosay, not air raid or array,
whatever a red.
Yeah, that's awesome.
I sometimes I don't put words.

SPEAKER_00 (02:23:26):
You get some funny people on here.

SPEAKER_02 (02:23:28):
Oh, yeah, for sure.
Yeah, some good personalities.
Uh the Don Dunpeel said thatthere is not enough bandwidth in
the world to send videos to theNYPD, who, in my opinion, is one
of the biggest ego departmentsin the country.
Well, when you keep calling themNew York's finest.

SPEAKER_00 (02:23:43):
Yeah, that's that's not the biggest ego in the
country, though.

SPEAKER_01 (02:23:46):
No, no.
Oh.

SPEAKER_00 (02:23:48):
Oh, not even close.
I'm not gonna call anybody out.
No, I think uh NYPD to me istame compared to some of these
egos out there.

SPEAKER_02 (02:23:55):
Yeah, yeah.
I've I've run across them.

SPEAKER_00 (02:23:57):
I've yeah, you you get them out there and I'm like,
what is it about your agencythat I think in the South you
probably have you know, ego, butyou just have this like it's
it's just this mentality of likewe just this is the way this is
this is Johnny Law, you know,this is the way we do business
around here.
Um and it's like you betterlisten to me.
And you know, it's and it's andit's there's some probably

(02:24:19):
there's there's it's um they'remaking fun of me now.

SPEAKER_02 (02:24:24):
I like listen, I'm like Ron Burgundy up here.
If it's on the prompter, I'mgonna read it how it is on the
prompter.

SPEAKER_00 (02:24:28):
Yeah, that's actually pretty funny.
Yeah, you're like wrong.

SPEAKER_02 (02:24:31):
I like how Eric reads super chats exactly as
they are written.
I am.

SPEAKER_00 (02:24:36):
Oh, actually, okay, so if somebody does bring up
GSP, okay, let's okay, look, hecalled it out.
Georgia State Patrol isabsolutely uh, I mean, they they
they they they are veryprideful.

SPEAKER_02 (02:24:47):
I mean, I was thinking of a case law.
I was like, what's a GSP?
What are we talking about?
Oh, Georgia State Police, by theway.
Yeah, well, they will chaseanything that moves.

SPEAKER_00 (02:24:54):
Yeah, they have a reputation for that, man.
I you know, and I kind ofrespect it.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (02:24:58):
Because, you know, I mean citizens obviously back it
up because they're still doingit.

SPEAKER_00 (02:25:01):
Yeah, and you know, you you do like they will say in
in Georgia that if you are, youknow, if you're a bad guy and
you're like, you know, I'mthinking about running, and
you're like, but you you youlook at the car first, and if
it's a Georgia State Patrol, youdon't run.

SPEAKER_02 (02:25:14):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (02:25:14):
Um, because they will F you up, man.

SPEAKER_02 (02:25:17):
Uh Don Dunpeel said, I was away from the computer for
a second, but um, he said, hadyou addressed my question about
the departments hiring non-U.S.
citizens as officers to uphold aconstitution they have no
allegiance to.
Um, I I think you pretty muchself-explained that.
Uh, there's no need, like, I'magainst it.
I don't think that should be athing at all.

SPEAKER_00 (02:25:37):
Without question.

SPEAKER_02 (02:25:38):
Yeah.
Um, oh, um, Harrison did.
Do you know much about all ofthe police corrupt?
My dogs are fighting out there.
Uh, all the police corruptionstuff going on in Kentucky.
Uh that's pretty big over there.

SPEAKER_00 (02:25:53):
Um I did hear something about this.

SPEAKER_02 (02:25:57):
I'm just I he had asked, and I I lost the
question.
I don't okay, I can't reallyfind it.
So yeah, Harrison, if you wantto post your Kentucky question
again, um, let me know.
Uh 85% of citizens arebootlickers.
Of course they support GSP.
Well, I mean, technically, poweris in the people, and if they

(02:26:17):
support their law enforcementdoing certain law enforcement
acts, uh, I mean, look, I mean,I you know, I don't I don't mind
being heavy-handed on the on onthe people running.

SPEAKER_00 (02:26:26):
I mean, you just, you know, I mean, this like,
yeah, pit them.
I mean, you know, they'recausing a danger to all these
people around them.
I mean, it's it's you know, Idon't know, I mean, but be but
be easy on the stuff thatdoesn't really, you know, it's
the victimless crime stuff,right?
But running from police is notvictimless.
People die all the time uh frompeople that are run from police.

SPEAKER_02 (02:26:46):
Yeah.
Um, I think I already know wherewe're gonna be on this one, but
um, King Slayer said if someoneconsents to an officer to be in
their home and the officer wantsto disarm the person for safety
reasons.
Nope.
Uh, if the person says, if youwant to disarm me, you need to
leave, and they said that's partone.
Okay.
So I'm assuming he's typing, uh,I'm already on the side of the
homeowner.

(02:27:07):
So I I don't know where you'regoing with it, but I'm already
on the side of the homeowner.
If this is all consensual andthe homeowner wants to remain
armed, that's their fuckingprerogative.

SPEAKER_00 (02:27:17):
Yeah, no, I think you you need to handle you need
to handle the the that issuewith consent as well.
Yes.
They've already given consent tosearch the home.
Why wouldn't they want to giveconsent to put the gun away?

SPEAKER_02 (02:27:25):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (02:27:26):
And if they're not going to put the gun away, then
not even search, just to be inthe home.

SPEAKER_02 (02:27:30):
I mean, you are technically doing a search.

SPEAKER_00 (02:27:31):
Oh, you no, you no, I'm sorry.
You I'm glad you corrected me.
It's just in the home.
Just to be in the home, yes.
No, I ain't no, absolutely.
I mean, uh, I I I carry 20, Idon't care 247.
I carry 247 when I'm at home,right?
In my my home state of of Idahonow.
Um, but I carry, I always carry.
Yeah.
Always.

SPEAKER_02 (02:27:47):
I just oh I think Idaho is the state that that
California chief was commutingfrom.
Did you hear about that?

SPEAKER_00 (02:27:55):
No, but that doesn't surprise me.

SPEAKER_02 (02:27:57):
There was a people were all butthurt about that.
Um saying that that shouldn't beallowed.
And I'm like, listen, a chief'sposition, he's doing all his job
from the phone anyway.

SPEAKER_00 (02:28:09):
I yeah, but I don't like it though.
I I think I think it should bepart of the contract.
Hey, look, if you're gonna be achief of our town, you do have
you do have to live within I'mnot saying you have to live in
our town, but you have to live,you have to be able to respond.

SPEAKER_02 (02:28:21):
Yes.
I I don't disagree with that,but if you didn't have that in
in the contract that wasn't inwriting, like Well, I know San
Francisco cops that that dothat.
Yeah, there's fire jumpers orwhatever they call them.
Yeah, the ones they they usuallylive here in Texas and Arizona
and all that stuff, and thenthey fly out to California and
do their shit.

SPEAKER_00 (02:28:37):
Yeah, no, it's uh I mean if you know the San
Francisco cops are probably agood example because they're
making so they're one of thehighest paid in the nation.
And you know, it's not a place Iwould want to work because I
don't, you know, that thepolitics there is really bad,
but but they they go, they go toNevada or they go to uh Idaho or
you know, yeah, but you can'tblame them.

SPEAKER_02 (02:28:56):
Yeah, um, okay, so here's what Harrison was talking
about earlier.
He said, um Kentucky trooperslying under oh, so this is this
is all been it's this isn't justyou know alleged, this is
happening.
Um, because he's he lives inKentucky, so he shares Kentucky
stuff with us all the time, andhe's definitely one of our
biggest contributors.
He's probably the biggestcontributor.
Okay.
Um, and he said, keeping theirjobs, getting promotions, lying

(02:29:19):
to get warrants.
Like um, I I guess he'sbasically trying to see what you
may know about it.
I know nothing about that.
Nothing about that, nothing.
Something interesting.
Uh Mike Cucumber.
I appreciate Eric listening todissenting opinions for two plus
hours.
Totally.

SPEAKER_00 (02:29:33):
I mean, I I'm actually I'm actually gonna tell
you right now, Eric, I'm nevercoming on the show again because
I thought we're gonna have abunch of love on here.
Hey, man, Anthony, you're onhere.
I support you.
Keep doing what you're doing,brother.
Yeah, all I've been hearing isbashing on Pennsylvania versus
Mims for an Irish trade.
Okay, I'm never gonna bring upthat case again.

SPEAKER_02 (02:29:52):
No, guys, this is uh I mean, honestly, any real
lawyer, it's what they live for.
They want you to have an opinionthat's not theirs.
Yeah, no, we want we want gooddebate.

SPEAKER_00 (02:30:01):
We want, you know, in and and I'm also don't
forget, I'm not closed-minded.
I'm not I'm not perfect on thisstuff.
So I'm looking for feedback toyou.

SPEAKER_02 (02:30:07):
Yep.
Um, two cops when donut the DOJhas charged them a few of them
now.
That's good.
Good.
The system's working.

SPEAKER_00 (02:30:15):
Yep, you got it, you got to have it working, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (02:30:17):
Yeah.
Uh GG said, gotta go.
Chat.
Thank you for joining us, Gigi.
Appreciate it.
Um, I saw another comment uphere.
Where did it go?
I appreciate you listening.
Then you'll know more about thesubject than the cops and
lawyers, present companyincluded.
Shut up, Mr.
Billfold.
Uh you got it wrong.

(02:30:38):
Most people are butthurt becausehe sleeped in the station, in my
opinion.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
They got mad because he wassleeping in the station, which,
bro, you were a cop too.
Like, there's a cot in severalrooms.
Like, yeah, but he made ittheir, he made it his like
temporary home.
Um, yeah, he was staying likethe the night or something.
I I don't know to the extent.

SPEAKER_00 (02:30:58):
Yeah.
Um he should have his own placein California.
You know, he that's kind ofcommon, right?
You would have your own place inCalifornia and you would stay
there during the week and hewould just bolt out of there.

SPEAKER_02 (02:31:07):
Yeah.
Down the road.
Again, I'm they wanted it to besome sort of criminal thing.
And I'm like, this isn't acriminal thing.
This is a you need to figure outwhat's allowed, what's not
allowed, but it's all policiesand procedures.
Yeah.
I don't see that being acriminal thing.

SPEAKER_00 (02:31:19):
Why is this was say, Anthony, when do you go live?

SPEAKER_02 (02:31:24):
Anthony, when do you oh this is from your page?
Um, what does that mean?
I think they're asking, like,are you gonna start going live?
Because you're live right now onyour channel and you probably
don't do this.

SPEAKER_00 (02:31:33):
Oh, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (02:31:35):
I want to know when you're gonna make this more of a
regular thing.

SPEAKER_00 (02:31:37):
Right.
When like it's almost like whendid you start going live?
Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (02:31:40):
I think that's what they're asking.

SPEAKER_00 (02:31:41):
Of course, I'm saying.
Hey, maybe we'll do this we'lldo this more, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 (02:31:43):
Hey, yeah.
Well, we can definitely do itremotely if you can't make it
here every time.
But um, yeah, for sure.
Uh, one of the things that Ihave been wanting to have is a
legal portion of what we gotgoing on.

SPEAKER_00 (02:31:54):
So uh is it illegal to film someone peeing in public
if it's legal to pee?
What?

SPEAKER_02 (02:32:04):
What's yeah, what's Mayflower so Mayflower has asked
some weird questions before.
So he says, Is it illegal tofilm someone peeing in public?
If it's legal to pee in public.

SPEAKER_00 (02:32:13):
Well, first of all, I'm not sure it's legal to pee
in public anywhere.
Yeah, most unless you're in SanFrancisco.

SPEAKER_02 (02:32:18):
I was gonna say, I don't think it's legal, but
maybe what they're getting at isbody cam footage.

SPEAKER_00 (02:32:23):
Yeah, maybe.
But look, right to be, right tosee.

SPEAKER_02 (02:32:24):
I mean eye cup.

SPEAKER_00 (02:32:27):
Yeah, there's also I see you pee.
Yeah, I see.
That's actually I didn't Ididn't hear that.
I've heard that's old time.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (02:32:35):
Love it.
Um, okay, let me see.
Anthony, I would love to haveyou clear up my misconception
sometimes.
I am always wanting to learn,especially from people I
disagree with.
Um, so what we can do is we canget uh I'll get you your own
channel on our Discord.
Um, and then like you canliterally have Discord on your
phone.
And if you ever feel likepopping in and seeing questions

(02:32:56):
people have asked you, there'sno rush.
So if you answer it two weekslater, like it's not a big deal.
But yeah, we can we can getAnthony a channel, we'll make it
a blue to gold channel, be afree little advertisement thing
for y'all as well too.
So um, all right, we're at twoand a half hours, which is
usually about our limit.
Um, yep.
I want to one guys, Anthonytrains cops, that's what he

(02:33:20):
does.
Um and who the hell is bumpingin?
I think Alan's behind the scenesfucking with me.
Uh so he is able to uh getpolice trained in search and
seizure and all that stuff.
So if you guys want to be ableto do that and get the police or
you want to recommend, I'm gonnaactually pull it up right now.

(02:33:41):
Let's go to uh bluetoold.com oryes this is Bluetooth, so it
takes it a second from thisdistance.
There we go.
There we go.

SPEAKER_00 (02:33:53):
Blue T O.
What did I say?
Bluetooth.
No, okay.

SPEAKER_02 (02:33:58):
Bluetoothold.com.
Yeah, I'll just do it.
I knew it would be the top guy.
Yeah.
All right.
So we are going to share thisscreen.
Remind me later.

SPEAKER_03 (02:34:08):
Um share screen.

SPEAKER_00 (02:34:15):
Can you just X that out?
Yep.

SPEAKER_02 (02:34:17):
All right, guys.
So what we're looking at here isuh the blue to gold page.
Um if you need to call orcontact any of them, obviously
it's all up at the top.
Um we got the training going on.
I'll let you talk about yourpage.

SPEAKER_00 (02:34:30):
Yeah, so look, I mean, we have uh about 170
classes scheduled right nowacross the US.
Um, you know, as I said before,we're the largest search and
seizure instructors in thenation by far.
Not nobody even comes close.
We have a search and seizurebook for you know for every
state go down a little bit.
Um you see the the map rightthere, it'll populate.
Um that's actually that'ssomething wrong with that map

(02:34:50):
right there.
It should actually have morepins, right?
But okay, usually has all theclasses pinned out.
But um, so yeah, we uh we haveuh well it's the end of the
year.
That might be it, but usually itit does all of them.
But that that could be it couldbe the end of the year.

SPEAKER_02 (02:35:04):
I don't know why it would be probably showing what's
remaining for the year.

SPEAKER_00 (02:35:07):
Actually, you're probably right.
We do have a we have an IT guythat's full time.
Uh he might have programmed itthat way, but I don't know why
you would.
But but anyway, so um yeah,basically, that's what it is.
That's what it is.
Yeah, interesting.
Um, so so somebody's gonna getfired.
We just called them out.
Yeah, totally.
My bad.
But we uh no, we do a um we havea also a YouTube channel where

(02:35:27):
we have uh you know 1,400 videoson there uh about search and
seizure.
We do free webinars as wellevery week.
So I I do like talking aboutthese topics.
Um great instructors.
Uh this is this is our jam.
I mean, search and seizure isour jam.
This is what we are known for.
Um we do a lot of agency-widetraining, which is like a really
big thing now.
We talk about our agenciestaking it seriously.

(02:35:49):
Things are getting a lot better.

SPEAKER_01 (02:35:50):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (02:35:50):
Um, and so why do you why do you kind of look like
Keanu?
I don't that uh that orsomething else.
But I I I hate you kind of looklike Keanu.
Yeah, maybe um a certain versionof him, but yeah.
Um it's a dumb picture.
I don't actually I'm notphotogenic, so the AI stuff that
the point that you see thatlooks like you that's better.

(02:36:12):
That's better.
But my instructors look reallygood.
Like, you know, you go uh, youknow, anyway.
So I like it.

SPEAKER_02 (02:36:18):
I like it.
So yeah, guys, this is the Blueto Gold page.
Make sure you check that out.

SPEAKER_00 (02:36:22):
Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 (02:36:23):
Um, looks like we got some books here that you
guys can subscribe to as well.
I always like to make sure weplug that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 (02:36:29):
Yeah, but if you have a search and seizure
question, we're the we're thego-to guys.

SPEAKER_02 (02:36:32):
Yep.
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, very cool.
Uh, I will try to get oh, we'regetting some more questions in
chat in here, suggestion.
Um says uh his looks to theleft.

SPEAKER_00 (02:36:45):
Oh, I see what he's saying.

SPEAKER_02 (02:36:47):
Oh, because we're here you go.

SPEAKER_00 (02:36:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (02:36:50):
Now we're looking at each other.

SPEAKER_00 (02:36:51):
Yeah, that's actually next time, you know.
Yeah, yeah, get your get youract together.

SPEAKER_02 (02:36:56):
Live and learn.

SPEAKER_00 (02:36:56):
No, that's actually that is actually a good pro move
right there.
That's a good pro.

SPEAKER_02 (02:37:00):
Yeah, I guess I wasn't paying attention to that
part.
Yep, yep.
My bad.
Um, yeah.
But cool.
All right, yeah.
Looking, I just want to makesure we didn't miss anything
else in the chat.
Uh, so it's Anthony's fault.
Uh join us in the Discord.
Yep, absolutely.
Um cool.
All right, guys.
Uh we're gonna end it here.

(02:37:21):
Uh again, Anthony.
Thanks for being out here.
Everybody in the chat, thank youvery much for joining us on this
impromptu uh or I shouldn't,it's not impromptu.
We knew we were gonna do this,but um but but not but it wasn't
scripted at all, is it?

SPEAKER_00 (02:37:33):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (02:37:33):
This is a bonus, and we just freestyled it, and I
think it is what it is.
Um, here's money for new mic.
I don't think our mics aremessed up.
I think there's something thatis interfering with the signal.
That's all.
Just got to figure out what itis.
But thank you, Mike.
Appreciate it.
Everybody that supported thechannel today.
Shout out to our sponsors,peregrine.io, turning all the
crappiest detectives in theworld into Sherlock Holmes.

(02:37:55):
Uh, shout out to Ghost Patch.
Let me grab Ghost Patch.
They make these flex shields.
So Ghost Patch Customs.
This looks metal, looks metal toyou, correct?
Yeah.
So um it's not, it's BendyFlexi, and it is Velcro.
They also do coins and andpatches and and badges, like the
badge that you guys always seeon my vest.

(02:38:15):
That's a metal badge, it's areal badge.
Um, so shout out to them.
And yeah, that's it.
And and retro rifle, as I'msupporting my retro rifle shirt
right now.
So shout out to all those guys.
Um, everybody else, thanks forjoining and take it easy.

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