Are seed oils really toxic — or is social media getting it all wrong?
In this no-fluff episode, Dr. Richman and Dr.Fiorillo take on the growing anti-seed oil narrative spreading across TikTok, Instagram, and even presidential campaigns. From hexane fears to omega-6 inflammation claims and the trend of replacing seed oils with beef tallow, the hosts lay out the real science and call out misinformation.
💥 What you'll learn:
What seed oils really are (and what they're not)
Why omega-6 fatty acids don’t cause inflammation
The truth about hexane, toxicity, and “dose makes the poison”
What studies from the 1960s to today actually show about seed oils and heart health
Why switching to beef tallow might be worse for your health and the environment
How to spot pseudoscience and influencer agendas
Whether you’re a fitness enthusiast, a health skeptic, or just trying to make better choices in the kitchen, this episode will equip you with facts — not fear.
🔍 Because when it comes to your health, the truth matters.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
okay how we doing today everybody how you doing dr
richmond
SPEAKER_01 (00:04):
i'm doing well doing well happy to be here fired up
for this topic
SPEAKER_02 (00:07):
today yeah it's a great topic today's topic is
going to be the seed oilcontroversy and this centers on
whether or not industrial seedoil like soybean canola corn
sunflower are harmful to yourhealth and should we be
switching to other stuff likebeef tallow and recently
(00:27):
influencers and some otherpeople like rfk who's an
influencer is telling us thatoff seed oils and we should be
using beef tallow and we've donea lot of research on this and
we're going to share it with youtoday
SPEAKER_01 (00:46):
Absolutely.
Just getting started, obviously,Mike and I talk a lot about,
we're all about the truth, okay?
And I want to bring up just apoint first.
There's, I don't know if youguys have ever heard of
epistemology.
I'm being a little like geekingout now.
So that's a philosophical branchof how we obtain our knowledge,
okay?
So when we look on the internet,we're assuming all you guys, if
(01:09):
you're taking the time to watchus, that you're intelligent and
you do your due diligence.
But where do you Who is anexpert?
Is somebody just an expert onthe internet because they have a
strong opinion and they have alot of followers?
And the answer is, seems likeit's that way.
Mike and I talk about this allthe time.
(01:30):
We encourage you, yes, we wantyou to believe that we're
experts, but Mike and I wereboth laughing because we have
biology degrees, bachelor's ofscience in biology.
Am I a biologist?
No, but there's famousinfluencers got millions of
followers all over the Internetwas a biologist and you would
think he's the Messiah.
Okay.
And he talks about everything.
(01:52):
What makes him an expert?
So this is more of a rhetoricalquestion on.
You need to dig deep.
You know, what we're going toprovide you today is.
the best knowledge and the mostcurrent knowledge and the most
accurate knowledge but you'regonna have to make that decision
who you view as an expert and
SPEAKER_02 (02:09):
we don't have an agenda at all right right we
really don't and some of theseother people their agenda is to
sell you something right andThey say it very convincingly.
I find myself sometime watchingsome of these TikToks and
saying, I got to go out and buythis.
Yes, you
SPEAKER_01 (02:27):
do, my friend.
Yes, you do.
I
SPEAKER_02 (02:29):
do.
I do.
And people are very convincingand you trust them.
I'm a trusting person and a lotof people are trusting, right?
But who are you putting yourtrust in?
And listen, we may be wrong on atopic, but We won't be wrong in
our effort to try and find thetruth.
And that's what we're going todo with every podcast is dig
(02:50):
deep and find the data.
And listen, you can't argue withreal studies.
If you don't want to trust theFDA, if you don't want to trust
the American Heart Association,there's not much we can do about
that.
SPEAKER_01 (03:03):
I just want to give a little anecdote just about
that, which is really funny.
As you know, on a podcast we'vealready done, we talked a lot
about lipids, particles.
So I have a patient who thisweek, he's on rosuvastatin.
He's on a statin for hischolesterol.
We need to make an adjustmentand go up on the dose.
Nope.
Even though he listens to me andI've been his doctor for years,
(03:25):
nope, he won't do it.
Why?
because I read some BS that itharms your liver.
I know you sent me all the dataand I know you've written a
paper and there's no evidence,but it helps your liver.
And he says, oh, by the way, Dr.
Richmond, so I have a nodule onmy prostate and I'm having a
prostate biopsy and I think it'sprostate cancer.
So I said to him, okay, forprostate cancer and especially
(03:48):
breast cancer, there's anabundance of evidence and I'll
give you two papers to look at.
about metastasis and rapidprogression.
If you're on a statin, it slowsit in prostate cancer.
Oh, yep, I'll go up on the dose,no problem.
Absolutely.
And I said to him, wow.
I said, so you pick and choose.
He goes, I just don't trust theFDA and I don't trust this.
(04:10):
I go, but when it comes tocancer, and I said to him, well,
what's the number one killer?
And he said, yeah, you say it'sheart disease, but it doesn't
register in somebody's head.
Yes.
And I said, so that's our pointis it's really and that's what
we're going to be talking today.
Poison in a way.
Pick your poison.
OK, at the end of the day, it'syou'll do something for one
(04:31):
reason, but you won't do it foranother reason.
So like Mike and I say, if youlook at all these all these
influencers, unless they have analternative product or a book,
they don't comment.
But if they have somethingalternative or a book to sell or
something freaking a weight vestor something like that they have
a comment okay and mike and iwill i would love to sit down
(04:55):
and challenge anybody on thisstuff okay so without further
ado let's start and i think ithink the best way to start is
what seed oils are and mike andi talked about it so just to
make the distinction We'llmention olive oil, but olive oil
is not a seed oil.
Olive oil is a monounsaturatedfat.
(05:16):
We're talking aboutpolyunsaturated fat.
So canola oil, also known asrapeseed oil, peanut oil,
grapeseed oil.
What else, Mike?
Soy oil.
Okay, so those arepolyunsaturated.
And there's an abundance ofevidence, regardless of what you
hear on the internet, that ithas...
(05:36):
anti-atherosclerotic properties.
In other words, it reduces yourrisk for developing coronary
heart disease, okay?
And it's overwhelming.
But these influencers, here'stheir two go-tos, okay, that are
all over the internet.
First go-to is that somehowthere's this theoretical
imbalance between omega-6 andomega-3 fatty acids.
(06:00):
And then omega-6s promoteinflammation.
okay so i want to show you andremember i'm a heart surgeon
they do not they'reanti-inflammatory okay and the
study that is most famous forthis is they fed volunteers for
seven weeks seven times themaximum allowed amount of
(06:23):
omega-6 fatty acids.
So basically, they stuffed themfull of omega-6s, which, as we
said, are mostly from seed oils.
And they measured markers ofinflammation in their blood.
And they measured adiponeptin,C-reactive protein, ESR, which
is your sedimentation rate, andfibrinogen.
(06:45):
And nothing was elevated.
Okay.
So this whole idea ofinflammation, it's off the
table.
Okay.
And I'm telling you, this is aheart surgeon.
There is no, there is no, infact, it is anti-inflammatory.
Comments?
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (07:00):
Well, yeah, a hundred percent.
So people might be confused too,where this came from, the seed
oils, right?
Before seed oils, most peoplecooked with butter and lard and
that we know for sure, butterand lard, was leading to
atherosclerosis.
And there's the famous studythat we've talked about several
(07:21):
times already about on that,right?
So that's what we know.
So the industrial age started,or industrial seed oil started,
and we know that you needomega-3, omega-6.
You need essential fatty acidsin your diet.
You can't go without it.
SPEAKER_01 (07:35):
Your body doesn't make it.
Tell people what essential fattyacid means, like omega-6s, when
we say
SPEAKER_02 (07:40):
essential.
So in other words, your bodydoesn't make it.
So you need to get it from yourdiet.
Exactly.
Right?
Correct.
So we need those.
And then we'll talk about theratio between the three and six.
Which is bullshit, I told you.
Inflammation.
But turns out that when theystarted producing seed oil, they
were making seed oils withhexane.
(08:02):
And hexane is not a goodchemical, right?
We don't want hexane in ourbodies.
And it's not a good chemical.
It's a bad chemical.
However, they were using that toprocess the seed oils.
And the way they did it, wasthey burnt off the hexane at the
end right they used the hexaneto to kind of extract out the
oils and the hexane is in traceamounts and i think that's where
(08:22):
the influencers and other peopleare checking in saying you're
taking hexane it's causing itit's a carcinogen it's cancer
causing but everything we see drrichmond is going to show you
that
SPEAKER_01 (08:32):
well it's actually not it's not so again This
weekend, I kind of geeked out.
I developed a friendship with anenvironmental toxicologist who's
a full professor at UC Irvineand asked him about this because
on Joe Rogan's podcast, theinfluencer who we're talking
about, That's one of his maingo-tos is hexane, hexane.
(08:55):
Little history.
So Paracelsus from the 1500s isthe father of toxicology.
And the thing that he said isit's the dose that makes the
poison, okay?
So whenever we're talking aboutanything, you need to look at
the dose of something, theduration of exposure, and the
root, okay?
So for example, caffeine.
(09:18):
Caffeine is a toxin, okay?
In large amounts.
caffeine will kill you.
And we know for people in energydrinks where there's huge
amounts of caffeine, people die,okay?
So we need to understand that.
So hexane is used and it's stillused, as Mike said, to remove
the oil from the seeds, okay?
(09:40):
And it's the most efficientprocess.
And at the end of theprocessing, there are still
trace amounts of hexane.
Trace.
It evaporates.
Most evaporates out.
Right.
But the situation reminds me, Idon't know if you guys remember,
there was, I don't know, I wantto say 10, 15 years ago, there
was methylene, this whole thingwith methylene chloride in decaf
(10:02):
coffee or potassium bromate,which is in bread.
And this is an example wherepotentially hazardous chemicals
might be involved in theprocessing, but the risk depends
totally on the final exposure,not just the presence of the
history in the compound.
So you need to look atcompounds, what is in the final
(10:23):
product.
And the point is that the FDAand the European Safety Food
Authority, who's actually muchmore stringent than the FDA, set
standards.
And the amount of hexane in seedoil is minuscule, minuscule.
SPEAKER_02 (10:40):
Trace, yeah.
It's really a non-issue.
SPEAKER_01 (10:43):
It's a
SPEAKER_02 (10:43):
non-issue.
There are people looking for atalking point and looking to say
something bad about
SPEAKER_01 (10:49):
it.
And their main concern isactually neurotoxicity.
And when they look at it, theconcern is in people who are in
that business, high dose, longexposure.
So obviously, if you cooksomething in canola oil, Okay,
that's not high dose and highexposure.
So take that off the table.
(11:11):
So hexane, not a problem.
And you know
SPEAKER_02 (11:13):
what's funny is that the same people that will say
that, trace amounts, will have acouple scotches or bourbons or
drinks, which alcohol is waymore toxic in that dose as well.
So it's really a non-issue.
All
SPEAKER_01 (11:26):
right, so that one's done.
Yes, so take that off the table.
SPEAKER_02 (11:28):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (11:29):
So
SPEAKER_02 (11:30):
move on to the next thing.
The seed oils, as we talkedabout, came in in what like the
50s
SPEAKER_01 (11:37):
maybe i don't know that was before we were born but
uh but it came in
SPEAKER_02 (11:42):
around that time and uh they were shown to reduce
SPEAKER_01 (11:47):
atherosclerosis correct you want me to actually
quote so yeah so we have foundokay so the three studies
because mike and i told you wereall about facts Okay, so
epidemiologically, if youreplace 10% of your calories
from fatty acids, and we knowthat fatty acids cause saturated
(12:09):
fatty acids.
Saturated fatty, butter, lard.
Coconut oil.
palm oil, so it's tropical oils,dairy, and meats, okay, are
saturated fats.
So if we replace 10% of oursaturated fatty acids with
omega-6s, you lower yourcholesterol on average of 18
milligrams per deciliter, okay?
(12:29):
So the first study that you canquote is called the Minnesota
Coronary Experiment, which wasfrom 1968 and 1973, and it was a
randomized human trial thatfound that replacing saturated
fats with vegetables oilsreduced all cause risk of
cardiovascular disease and deathokay huge experiment 1968 to
(12:51):
1973 and that's why cedalsbecame popular right then a guy
in 2010 moza zafarian at allshowed that replacing five
percent of saturated fatcalories with omega-6s had a 13
percent reduction of coronaryevents okay but the thing now
the guys who don't want you tobelieve They'll quote the Lyon,
(13:14):
France, not Lyon, L-Y-O-N dietheart study, which was shown
that people who were on theMediterranean diet and reduced
saturated fats had lower risk ofcardiovascular death.
But their go-to point is onthat.
Well, that was omega-3s.
That wasn't omega-6s.
No, it was a combination of allof them.
(13:35):
Okay, so the data isoverwhelming that consuming
omega-6s oversaturated fats,beef fat, lard, or whatever
reduces your risk of developingatherosclerosis.
It's unconscionable that any ofthese guys say that a high
cholesterol level doesn't causeatherosclerosis.
(13:58):
That's the only thing thatcauses it.
Yes,
SPEAKER_02 (14:01):
correct.
Correct.
So that's the issue with that.
So for people to say that seedoil is bad, get off seed oil, is
just really not true
SPEAKER_00 (14:14):
right
SPEAKER_02 (14:14):
and the other thing is you also have to look in what
is what's being cooked and whatare the other ingredients in
what's being cooked in it soit's not also the seed oil
people don't take that intoaccount when they're doing these
studies they're not just lookingat the seed oil they also have
to look at the food
SPEAKER_01 (14:33):
exactly exactly so why don't you talk about your
wife for a second
SPEAKER_02 (14:37):
okay so seed oils We took out the whole hexane
argument, which I think we'vedebunked that.
And then the second thing isthey're touting inflammation,
and they're saying that it'scausing a lot of bad things in
your body, inflammation.
So there are no studies thatshow that omega-6, like we said,
(14:59):
is causing inflammation in yourbody, correct?
SPEAKER_01 (15:04):
Right.
In human studies, there is nodata.
This concept of inflammation isso crazy because there are a lot
of people who are misguided whobelieve that atherosclerosis is
an inflammatory disease.
It's not a disease ofcholesterol.
Failing to understand thatthey're all involved with each
(15:26):
other.
And if you remember in theformer podcast, I talked about
the particles entering the wallof the artery, what causes
atherosclerosis.
Unless a plaque forms inside thewall of the artery, You don't
develop inflammation.
So that's what causesinflammation.
So what their go-to is thatsomehow omega-6 fatty acids, and
we'll get into the burning pointin a second on that, promote
(15:49):
inflammation and causeatherosclerosis.
And that's just, it doesn'thappen.
And talk about arachidonic acid.
SPEAKER_02 (15:56):
Yeah, so there is some thought that diets that are
very heavy in seed oils increaseyour arachidonic acid level in
the cell membrane.
and potentially amplifypro-inflammatory levels,
especially if omega-3 is low.
So that's where you're startingto hear about this ratio of
(16:17):
omega-6 to omega-3.
SPEAKER_01 (16:20):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (16:20):
But there are no studies that show that a high
level of omega-6 is causingthis.
SPEAKER_01 (16:28):
Random, right.
Randomized causation trials.
There are none.
And like I said, I'm a heartsurgeon.
I've been doing lipidology,which is this, which is taking
care of lipid abnormalities forover 20 years.
And I can promise you, I'vewritten about it for WebMD that
it's not the case.
It's this philosophical thingbecause non-steroidal
(16:50):
anti-inflammatories likeibuprofen and all that, they
block arachidonic acid.
Okay, so you'd think toyourself, okay, why can't I take
one of them?
Well, Mike will tell you, hiswife was the rep for Vioxx.
And Vioxx, which was thepremier, strongest, best
anti-inflammatory, blockedarachidonic acid.
(17:10):
And what happened?
SPEAKER_02 (17:11):
Yeah, it was killing people, heart disease, heart
attacks.
SPEAKER_01 (17:15):
Yeah, okay, so it doesn't make sense.
So what we do know is thatomega-6 is...
have an anti-inflammatoryeffect.
We know that it lowerscardiovascular events.
Okay.
And we also know that itpromotes good endothelial
function, which means the liningof the blood vessel.
Okay.
Makes it better.
So we need to take all those offthe equation.
(17:37):
So it's not poison.
Then there's one other thingthat they keep getting to, and
it's called the burning pointthe heating point okay and they
look at and they look at seedoils and olive oil first of all
has the highest avocado or whichis a seed oil avocado oil or
olive oil which is not has thehighest burning point and what
(17:57):
the burning point refers to iswhen your kitchen starts filling
up with smoke and the reason whythat's significant a lot of
these guys it's called LOP,lipid oxidation products.
So in other words, and this isnow going to get like totally
weird because you're going tothink to yourself, okay, isn't
that good?
So lipid oxidation products areketones, okay?
(18:19):
And those of you who are intofasting, what is the whole point
of fasting, right?
Ketosis, burning fat.
So you would think to yourself,okay, if lipid oxidation
products are bad for you, butthey're ketones in your body,
how could they be bad?
So once again, what I'm sayingis pick your poison and we'll do
(18:40):
a podcast on that.
So ketosis is good for you whenyou wanna fast and you wanna
lose weight, but if you burn oilin your kitchen and you develop
lipid oxidation products, it'ssomehow bad for you because it
causes atherosclerosis.
Crazy shit, right?
Yeah, it's not right.
SPEAKER_02 (18:57):
It doesn't make any sense.
So the bottom line for us whenwe look at this is saturated
fats are bad for you.
We've known that for 100 years.
Trans fat, we know, is reallybad for you.
I don't even know if they'reoutlawed now.
I don't even know if you can getthem anymore.
Those are super bad for you,trans fats.
We didn't even discuss those.
SPEAKER_01 (19:18):
And trans fats, just quick, trans fats are a way to
make liquid saturated fats andinto a solid form at room
temperature that's what a transfat is right
SPEAKER_02 (19:31):
next trans fat are out now so now you have seed
oils okay which we've discussedthe controversies seed oil is
fine in moderation everything inmoderation like you talked about
dose dependent is fine but ifyou want to take it a step
better we like olive oil and welike avocado oil olive oil also
has some neuro neuroprotectiveeffects as well so
SPEAKER_01 (19:54):
Definitely, yeah.
And
SPEAKER_02 (19:56):
cardiovascular.
And cardiovascular.
It's hard to find faults withthat.
But once again, the seed oilalso, look at what it's being
used for.
What kind of food are you eatingwith it as well?
Because that might be worse thanthe seed oil itself.
So we have, in our way ofthinking things, we have olive
oil, avocado oil, seed oil, andthen on the bottom.
(20:18):
You're right, canola.
Yeah, and then on the bottom.
SPEAKER_01 (20:20):
Peanut, peanut.
SPEAKER_02 (20:22):
Yep.
On the bottom, we have the beeftallow.
SPEAKER_01 (20:24):
But I want to bring up just a sec because you see
Kennedy specifically trying toget rid of seed oil and replace
it with beef tallow.
So just a few comments on that,what I think is important.
Number one, so if you'revegetarian or vegan, you're
going to go into everyrestaurant and you're going to
start asking them now, excuseme, do you cook in beef tallow
(20:47):
or do you use vegetable oil?
So you know that if Kennedy hashis way, Fast food, even good
fast food is out and going toanother restaurant may be out,
okay?
But even forgetting that.
So saturated fats of which wetalked about in a previous
podcast, coconut oil has themost, 92% saturated fat,
(21:10):
followed by butter, 64.
Beef is anywhere between 50 to55% saturated fats.
And saturated fats raise yourLDL cholesterol, your bad
cholesterol.
It's indisputable, there'snothing about it.
Third thing, which Kennedyforgets to tell people, and I
actually looked this up, thereis residual hexane in a lot of
(21:33):
the industrial beef tallow.
Because remember, if we're doingbeef tallow here in restaurants,
it's industrial beef tallow.
There's not a lot of, there'snot enough grass fed organic
cows walking around the UnitedStates to supply everybody.
So it's industrial beef tallow,but guess what they have also
found in it?
(21:54):
Antibiotics, steroids, hormones,forever chemicals, PCB.
I looked it up.
Okay.
Okay.
So like, come on, pick yourpoison.
Okay.
Continuing.
And we're going to actually do apodcast on it.
Phthalates.
It's, P-F, the P-F silent,T-H-A-L-A-T-E-S.
(22:15):
Look it up.
Horrible for you, okay?
And it's pretty much ineverything.
It's what makes plastic soft.
It's what makes makeup stick toyour face.
It's what gives fragrances thesmell, okay?
Beef tallow.
And finally, for theenvironmentally conscientious
people who worry about theenvironment, I know I do, it's
toxic to aquatic systems, okay?
(22:37):
So Kennedy's an environmentallawyer, okay?
It's insane, right?
SPEAKER_02 (22:42):
Yeah, it is.
It's like the game, I equate itto the game of telephone when we
were kids.
That's what social media, itkind of is, you know, because
someone is out there doing alecture they have a microphone
on and they're writing on aboard or they have a microphone
in front of them and they'resaying seed oils are terrible
they're causing inflammation inyour body and which leads to
chronic disease and inflammatorydiseases and autoimmune diseases
(23:05):
and and then it just keeps goingon and then fast forward you're
in the gym and you hear peoplesaying i'm off seed oils i feel
great i'm not taking any seedoils anymore i feel amazing and
they don't even know why they'resaying it because someone told
them so All we can go by, likewe said, is the evidence.
And we've dug in.
We're finding out, no, they arenot as bad as everyone says.
(23:27):
Look at your food choices,number one.
They're good.
They're actually good.
Right.
Exactly right.
They're actually good.
And if you want to really besuper self-conscious, you can
limit the amount of oils thatyou need to.
You need some essential fattyacids, but you can limit it and
you can start replacing stuffwith olive oil, avocado oil.
SPEAKER_01 (23:45):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (23:46):
But we do.
And then the other thing I wantto mention too is, and Dr.
Richmond actually put me onthis, omega-3s as a supplement.
So I know you're a big proponentof those.
SPEAKER_01 (23:57):
Well, every cardiac surgeon is.
Cardiologist.
I've lectured on it on the topicbefore, like formal lectures.
That's a whole nother topic ofEPA and DHA, which are the major
components.
And do you want it all?
EPA, fish oil.
Or do you want a combination andall that?
But we'll get into that atanother time.
(24:18):
But the take-home point of thisis, number one, is don't be
willfully ignorant, okay?
And I'm not saying that todemean somebody.
But because you're lazy, it'snot okay.
Don't believe what these peopletell you.
I don't care if you believe whatMike and I tell you.
Do your due diligence.
Get on the internet and Google.
(24:39):
And if we missaid something,please contact us.
We do our due diligence.
So don't be willfully ignorantbecause you're lazy and just
assume what somebody says orwaste your money because the
majority of the stuff that thesepeople sell is a waste of money.
Okay.
And Mike said he more than mebecause he meets a lot of, I
(25:03):
guess it's a Jersey thing.
He meets a lot of guys at thegym who are all like, I'm taking
this and taking this.
I feel 20 years younger.
And they still look their age.
He doesn't tell him.
It was like shit.
But yeah, but
SPEAKER_02 (25:17):
there's so much stuff overload out there now.
And there's so many people andthey want to believe it.
They really want to believe it,you know, including myself.
So we have you have to do yourown homework and you have to see
what works and and make sureit's not harming you, too.
Because if something's notharming you, then you want to
take it and it's worth a shotfor you, then yes, go ahead.
But our thought is that let'sget some good science behind it.
(25:40):
Hopefully we shed some light onseed oils.
They're fine for you to take.
We have no issue with them.
This is from a heart surgeonthat still will eat stuff
prepared with seed oils.
And we have no issue with it atall.
SPEAKER_01 (25:55):
Absolutely correct.
So all in all, hopefully youenjoyed today's show.
We're going to do plenty more.
Mike was on a little vacay.
So now he's back in action.
So we're going to be back inaction and we're excited.
I'm fired up.
SPEAKER_02 (26:11):
And please send us some messages of what topics you
want to hear.
We're basically going to coverthe important ones, but we also
want to scour social media toget the hot topics that people
are saying.
SPEAKER_00 (26:22):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (26:22):
We'll pick a good topic for next week.
And until then, Dr.
Richmond.
SPEAKER_01 (26:28):
Thank you for listening.
And because when it comes toyour health, Remember, the truth
matters.
SPEAKER_02 (26:33):
It certainly does.
Take care, everyone.
okay how we doing today everybody how you doing dr
richmond
SPEAKER_01 (00:04):
i'm doing well doing well happy to be here fired up
for this topic
SPEAKER_02 (00:07):
today yeah it's a great topic today's topic is
going to be the seed oilcontroversy and this centers on
whether or not industrial seedoil like soybean canola corn
sunflower are harmful to yourhealth and should we be
switching to other stuff likebeef tallow and recently
(00:27):
influencers and some otherpeople like rfk who's an
influencer is telling us thatoff seed oils and we should be
using beef tallow and we've donea lot of research on this and
we're going to share it with youtoday
SPEAKER_01 (00:46):
Absolutely.
Just getting started, obviously,Mike and I talk a lot about,
we're all about the truth, okay?
And I want to bring up just apoint first.
There's, I don't know if youguys have ever heard of
epistemology.
I'm being a little like geekingout now.
So that's a philosophical branchof how we obtain our knowledge,
okay?
So when we look on the internet,we're assuming all you guys, if
(01:09):
you're taking the time to watchus, that you're intelligent and
you do your due diligence.
But where do you Who is anexpert?
Is somebody just an expert onthe internet because they have a
strong opinion and they have alot of followers?
And the answer is, seems likeit's that way.
Mike and I talk about this allthe time.
(01:30):
We encourage you, yes, we wantyou to believe that we're
experts, but Mike and I wereboth laughing because we have
biology degrees, bachelor's ofscience in biology.
Am I a biologist?
No, but there's famousinfluencers got millions of
followers all over the Internetwas a biologist and you would
think he's the Messiah.
Okay.
And he talks about everything.
(01:52):
What makes him an expert?
So this is more of a rhetoricalquestion on.
You need to dig deep.
You know, what we're going toprovide you today is.
the best knowledge and the mostcurrent knowledge and the most
accurate knowledge but you'regonna have to make that decision
who you view as an expert and
SPEAKER_02 (02:09):
we don't have an agenda at all right right we
really don't and some of theseother people their agenda is to
sell you something right andThey say it very convincingly.
I find myself sometime watchingsome of these TikToks and
saying, I got to go out and buythis.
Yes, you
SPEAKER_01 (02:27):
do, my friend.
Yes, you do.
I
SPEAKER_02 (02:29):
do.
I do.
And people are very convincingand you trust them.
I'm a trusting person and a lotof people are trusting, right?
But who are you putting yourtrust in?
And listen, we may be wrong on atopic, but We won't be wrong in
our effort to try and find thetruth.
And that's what we're going todo with every podcast is dig
(02:50):
deep and find the data.
And listen, you can't argue withreal studies.
If you don't want to trust theFDA, if you don't want to trust
the American Heart Association,there's not much we can do about
that.
SPEAKER_01 (03:03):
I just want to give a little anecdote just about
that, which is really funny.
As you know, on a podcast we'vealready done, we talked a lot
about lipids, particles.
So I have a patient who thisweek, he's on rosuvastatin.
He's on a statin for hischolesterol.
We need to make an adjustmentand go up on the dose.
Nope.
Even though he listens to me andI've been his doctor for years,
(03:25):
nope, he won't do it.
Why?
because I read some BS that itharms your liver.
I know you sent me all the dataand I know you've written a
paper and there's no evidence,but it helps your liver.
And he says, oh, by the way, Dr.
Richmond, so I have a nodule onmy prostate and I'm having a
prostate biopsy and I think it'sprostate cancer.
So I said to him, okay, forprostate cancer and especially
(03:48):
breast cancer, there's anabundance of evidence and I'll
give you two papers to look at.
about metastasis and rapidprogression.
If you're on a statin, it slowsit in prostate cancer.
Oh, yep, I'll go up on the dose,no problem.
Absolutely.
And I said to him, wow.
I said, so you pick and choose.
He goes, I just don't trust theFDA and I don't trust this.
(04:10):
I go, but when it comes tocancer, and I said to him, well,
what's the number one killer?
And he said, yeah, you say it'sheart disease, but it doesn't
register in somebody's head.
Yes.
And I said, so that's our pointis it's really and that's what
we're going to be talking today.
Poison in a way.
Pick your poison.
OK, at the end of the day, it'syou'll do something for one
(04:31):
reason, but you won't do it foranother reason.
So like Mike and I say, if youlook at all these all these
influencers, unless they have analternative product or a book,
they don't comment.
But if they have somethingalternative or a book to sell or
something freaking a weight vestor something like that they have
a comment okay and mike and iwill i would love to sit down
(04:55):
and challenge anybody on thisstuff okay so without further
ado let's start and i think ithink the best way to start is
what seed oils are and mike andi talked about it so just to
make the distinction We'llmention olive oil, but olive oil
is not a seed oil.
Olive oil is a monounsaturatedfat.
(05:16):
We're talking aboutpolyunsaturated fat.
So canola oil, also known asrapeseed oil, peanut oil,
grapeseed oil.
What else, Mike?
Soy oil.
Okay, so those arepolyunsaturated.
And there's an abundance ofevidence, regardless of what you
hear on the internet, that ithas...
(05:36):
anti-atherosclerotic properties.
In other words, it reduces yourrisk for developing coronary
heart disease, okay?
And it's overwhelming.
But these influencers, here'stheir two go-tos, okay, that are
all over the internet.
First go-to is that somehowthere's this theoretical
imbalance between omega-6 andomega-3 fatty acids.
(06:00):
And then omega-6s promoteinflammation.
okay so i want to show you andremember i'm a heart surgeon
they do not they'reanti-inflammatory okay and the
study that is most famous forthis is they fed volunteers for
seven weeks seven times themaximum allowed amount of
(06:23):
omega-6 fatty acids.
So basically, they stuffed themfull of omega-6s, which, as we
said, are mostly from seed oils.
And they measured markers ofinflammation in their blood.
And they measured adiponeptin,C-reactive protein, ESR, which
is your sedimentation rate, andfibrinogen.
(06:45):
And nothing was elevated.
Okay.
So this whole idea ofinflammation, it's off the
table.
Okay.
And I'm telling you, this is aheart surgeon.
There is no, there is no, infact, it is anti-inflammatory.
Comments?
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (07:00):
Well, yeah, a hundred percent.
So people might be confused too,where this came from, the seed
oils, right?
Before seed oils, most peoplecooked with butter and lard and
that we know for sure, butterand lard, was leading to
atherosclerosis.
And there's the famous studythat we've talked about several
(07:21):
times already about on that,right?
So that's what we know.
So the industrial age started,or industrial seed oil started,
and we know that you needomega-3, omega-6.
You need essential fatty acidsin your diet.
You can't go without it.
SPEAKER_01 (07:35):
Your body doesn't make it.
Tell people what essential fattyacid means, like omega-6s, when
we say
SPEAKER_02 (07:40):
essential.
So in other words, your bodydoesn't make it.
So you need to get it from yourdiet.
Exactly.
Right?
Correct.
So we need those.
And then we'll talk about theratio between the three and six.
Which is bullshit, I told you.
Inflammation.
But turns out that when theystarted producing seed oil, they
were making seed oils withhexane.
(08:02):
And hexane is not a goodchemical, right?
We don't want hexane in ourbodies.
And it's not a good chemical.
It's a bad chemical.
However, they were using that toprocess the seed oils.
And the way they did it, wasthey burnt off the hexane at the
end right they used the hexaneto to kind of extract out the
oils and the hexane is in traceamounts and i think that's where
(08:22):
the influencers and other peopleare checking in saying you're
taking hexane it's causing itit's a carcinogen it's cancer
causing but everything we see drrichmond is going to show you
that
SPEAKER_01 (08:32):
well it's actually not it's not so again This
weekend, I kind of geeked out.
I developed a friendship with anenvironmental toxicologist who's
a full professor at UC Irvineand asked him about this because
on Joe Rogan's podcast, theinfluencer who we're talking
about, That's one of his maingo-tos is hexane, hexane.
(08:55):
Little history.
So Paracelsus from the 1500s isthe father of toxicology.
And the thing that he said isit's the dose that makes the
poison, okay?
So whenever we're talking aboutanything, you need to look at
the dose of something, theduration of exposure, and the
root, okay?
So for example, caffeine.
(09:18):
Caffeine is a toxin, okay?
In large amounts.
caffeine will kill you.
And we know for people in energydrinks where there's huge
amounts of caffeine, people die,okay?
So we need to understand that.
So hexane is used and it's stillused, as Mike said, to remove
the oil from the seeds, okay?
(09:40):
And it's the most efficientprocess.
And at the end of theprocessing, there are still
trace amounts of hexane.
Trace.
It evaporates.
Most evaporates out.
Right.
But the situation reminds me, Idon't know if you guys remember,
there was, I don't know, I wantto say 10, 15 years ago, there
was methylene, this whole thingwith methylene chloride in decaf
(10:02):
coffee or potassium bromate,which is in bread.
And this is an example wherepotentially hazardous chemicals
might be involved in theprocessing, but the risk depends
totally on the final exposure,not just the presence of the
history in the compound.
So you need to look atcompounds, what is in the final
(10:23):
product.
And the point is that the FDAand the European Safety Food
Authority, who's actually muchmore stringent than the FDA, set
standards.
And the amount of hexane in seedoil is minuscule, minuscule.
SPEAKER_02 (10:40):
Trace, yeah.
It's really a non-issue.
SPEAKER_01 (10:43):
It's a
SPEAKER_02 (10:43):
non-issue.
There are people looking for atalking point and looking to say
something bad about
SPEAKER_01 (10:49):
it.
And their main concern isactually neurotoxicity.
And when they look at it, theconcern is in people who are in
that business, high dose, longexposure.
So obviously, if you cooksomething in canola oil, Okay,
that's not high dose and highexposure.
So take that off the table.
(11:11):
So hexane, not a problem.
And you know
SPEAKER_02 (11:13):
what's funny is that the same people that will say
that, trace amounts, will have acouple scotches or bourbons or
drinks, which alcohol is waymore toxic in that dose as well.
So it's really a non-issue.
All
SPEAKER_01 (11:26):
right, so that one's done.
Yes, so take that off the table.
SPEAKER_02 (11:28):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (11:29):
So
SPEAKER_02 (11:30):
move on to the next thing.
The seed oils, as we talkedabout, came in in what like the
50s
SPEAKER_01 (11:37):
maybe i don't know that was before we were born but
uh but it came in
SPEAKER_02 (11:42):
around that time and uh they were shown to reduce
SPEAKER_01 (11:47):
atherosclerosis correct you want me to actually
quote so yeah so we have foundokay so the three studies
because mike and i told you wereall about facts Okay, so
epidemiologically, if youreplace 10% of your calories
from fatty acids, and we knowthat fatty acids cause saturated
(12:09):
fatty acids.
Saturated fatty, butter, lard.
Coconut oil.
palm oil, so it's tropical oils,dairy, and meats, okay, are
saturated fats.
So if we replace 10% of oursaturated fatty acids with
omega-6s, you lower yourcholesterol on average of 18
milligrams per deciliter, okay?
(12:29):
So the first study that you canquote is called the Minnesota
Coronary Experiment, which wasfrom 1968 and 1973, and it was a
randomized human trial thatfound that replacing saturated
fats with vegetables oilsreduced all cause risk of
cardiovascular disease and deathokay huge experiment 1968 to
(12:51):
1973 and that's why cedalsbecame popular right then a guy
in 2010 moza zafarian at allshowed that replacing five
percent of saturated fatcalories with omega-6s had a 13
percent reduction of coronaryevents okay but the thing now
the guys who don't want you tobelieve They'll quote the Lyon,
(13:14):
France, not Lyon, L-Y-O-N dietheart study, which was shown
that people who were on theMediterranean diet and reduced
saturated fats had lower risk ofcardiovascular death.
But their go-to point is onthat.
Well, that was omega-3s.
That wasn't omega-6s.
No, it was a combination of allof them.
(13:35):
Okay, so the data isoverwhelming that consuming
omega-6s oversaturated fats,beef fat, lard, or whatever
reduces your risk of developingatherosclerosis.
It's unconscionable that any ofthese guys say that a high
cholesterol level doesn't causeatherosclerosis.
(13:58):
That's the only thing thatcauses it.
Yes,
SPEAKER_02 (14:01):
correct.
Correct.
So that's the issue with that.
So for people to say that seedoil is bad, get off seed oil, is
just really not true
SPEAKER_00 (14:14):
right
SPEAKER_02 (14:14):
and the other thing is you also have to look in what
is what's being cooked and whatare the other ingredients in
what's being cooked in it soit's not also the seed oil
people don't take that intoaccount when they're doing these
studies they're not just lookingat the seed oil they also have
to look at the food
SPEAKER_01 (14:33):
exactly exactly so why don't you talk about your
wife for a second
SPEAKER_02 (14:37):
okay so seed oils We took out the whole hexane
argument, which I think we'vedebunked that.
And then the second thing isthey're touting inflammation,
and they're saying that it'scausing a lot of bad things in
your body, inflammation.
So there are no studies thatshow that omega-6, like we said,
(14:59):
is causing inflammation in yourbody, correct?
SPEAKER_01 (15:04):
Right.
In human studies, there is nodata.
This concept of inflammation isso crazy because there are a lot
of people who are misguided whobelieve that atherosclerosis is
an inflammatory disease.
It's not a disease ofcholesterol.
Failing to understand thatthey're all involved with each
(15:26):
other.
And if you remember in theformer podcast, I talked about
the particles entering the wallof the artery, what causes
atherosclerosis.
Unless a plaque forms inside thewall of the artery, You don't
develop inflammation.
So that's what causesinflammation.
So what their go-to is thatsomehow omega-6 fatty acids, and
we'll get into the burning pointin a second on that, promote
(15:49):
inflammation and causeatherosclerosis.
And that's just, it doesn'thappen.
And talk about arachidonic acid.
SPEAKER_02 (15:56):
Yeah, so there is some thought that diets that are
very heavy in seed oils increaseyour arachidonic acid level in
the cell membrane.
and potentially amplifypro-inflammatory levels,
especially if omega-3 is low.
So that's where you're startingto hear about this ratio of
(16:17):
omega-6 to omega-3.
SPEAKER_01 (16:20):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (16:20):
But there are no studies that show that a high
level of omega-6 is causingthis.
SPEAKER_01 (16:28):
Random, right.
Randomized causation trials.
There are none.
And like I said, I'm a heartsurgeon.
I've been doing lipidology,which is this, which is taking
care of lipid abnormalities forover 20 years.
And I can promise you, I'vewritten about it for WebMD that
it's not the case.
It's this philosophical thingbecause non-steroidal
(16:50):
anti-inflammatories likeibuprofen and all that, they
block arachidonic acid.
Okay, so you'd think toyourself, okay, why can't I take
one of them?
Well, Mike will tell you, hiswife was the rep for Vioxx.
And Vioxx, which was thepremier, strongest, best
anti-inflammatory, blockedarachidonic acid.
(17:10):
And what happened?
SPEAKER_02 (17:11):
Yeah, it was killing people, heart disease, heart
attacks.
SPEAKER_01 (17:15):
Yeah, okay, so it doesn't make sense.
So what we do know is thatomega-6 is...
have an anti-inflammatoryeffect.
We know that it lowerscardiovascular events.
Okay.
And we also know that itpromotes good endothelial
function, which means the liningof the blood vessel.
Okay.
Makes it better.
So we need to take all those offthe equation.
(17:37):
So it's not poison.
Then there's one other thingthat they keep getting to, and
it's called the burning pointthe heating point okay and they
look at and they look at seedoils and olive oil first of all
has the highest avocado or whichis a seed oil avocado oil or
olive oil which is not has thehighest burning point and what
(17:57):
the burning point refers to iswhen your kitchen starts filling
up with smoke and the reason whythat's significant a lot of
these guys it's called LOP,lipid oxidation products.
So in other words, and this isnow going to get like totally
weird because you're going tothink to yourself, okay, isn't
that good?
So lipid oxidation products areketones, okay?
(18:19):
And those of you who are intofasting, what is the whole point
of fasting, right?
Ketosis, burning fat.
So you would think to yourself,okay, if lipid oxidation
products are bad for you, butthey're ketones in your body,
how could they be bad?
So once again, what I'm sayingis pick your poison and we'll do
(18:40):
a podcast on that.
So ketosis is good for you whenyou wanna fast and you wanna
lose weight, but if you burn oilin your kitchen and you develop
lipid oxidation products, it'ssomehow bad for you because it
causes atherosclerosis.
Crazy shit, right?
Yeah, it's not right.
SPEAKER_02 (18:57):
It doesn't make any sense.
So the bottom line for us whenwe look at this is saturated
fats are bad for you.
We've known that for 100 years.
Trans fat, we know, is reallybad for you.
I don't even know if they'reoutlawed now.
I don't even know if you can getthem anymore.
Those are super bad for you,trans fats.
We didn't even discuss those.
SPEAKER_01 (19:18):
And trans fats, just quick, trans fats are a way to
make liquid saturated fats andinto a solid form at room
temperature that's what a transfat is right
SPEAKER_02 (19:31):
next trans fat are out now so now you have seed
oils okay which we've discussedthe controversies seed oil is
fine in moderation everything inmoderation like you talked about
dose dependent is fine but ifyou want to take it a step
better we like olive oil and welike avocado oil olive oil also
has some neuro neuroprotectiveeffects as well so
SPEAKER_01 (19:54):
Definitely, yeah.
And
SPEAKER_02 (19:56):
cardiovascular.
And cardiovascular.
It's hard to find faults withthat.
But once again, the seed oilalso, look at what it's being
used for.
What kind of food are you eatingwith it as well?
Because that might be worse thanthe seed oil itself.
So we have, in our way ofthinking things, we have olive
oil, avocado oil, seed oil, andthen on the bottom.
(20:18):
You're right, canola.
Yeah, and then on the bottom.
SPEAKER_01 (20:20):
Peanut, peanut.
SPEAKER_02 (20:22):
Yep.
On the bottom, we have the beeftallow.
SPEAKER_01 (20:24):
But I want to bring up just a sec because you see
Kennedy specifically trying toget rid of seed oil and replace
it with beef tallow.
So just a few comments on that,what I think is important.
Number one, so if you'revegetarian or vegan, you're
going to go into everyrestaurant and you're going to
start asking them now, excuseme, do you cook in beef tallow
(20:47):
or do you use vegetable oil?
So you know that if Kennedy hashis way, Fast food, even good
fast food is out and going toanother restaurant may be out,
okay?
But even forgetting that.
So saturated fats of which wetalked about in a previous
podcast, coconut oil has themost, 92% saturated fat,
(21:10):
followed by butter, 64.
Beef is anywhere between 50 to55% saturated fats.
And saturated fats raise yourLDL cholesterol, your bad
cholesterol.
It's indisputable, there'snothing about it.
Third thing, which Kennedyforgets to tell people, and I
actually looked this up, thereis residual hexane in a lot of
(21:33):
the industrial beef tallow.
Because remember, if we're doingbeef tallow here in restaurants,
it's industrial beef tallow.
There's not a lot of, there'snot enough grass fed organic
cows walking around the UnitedStates to supply everybody.
So it's industrial beef tallow,but guess what they have also
found in it?
(21:54):
Antibiotics, steroids, hormones,forever chemicals, PCB.
I looked it up.
Okay.
Okay.
So like, come on, pick yourpoison.
Okay.
Continuing.
And we're going to actually do apodcast on it.
Phthalates.
It's, P-F, the P-F silent,T-H-A-L-A-T-E-S.
(22:15):
Look it up.
Horrible for you, okay?
And it's pretty much ineverything.
It's what makes plastic soft.
It's what makes makeup stick toyour face.
It's what gives fragrances thesmell, okay?
Beef tallow.
And finally, for theenvironmentally conscientious
people who worry about theenvironment, I know I do, it's
toxic to aquatic systems, okay?
(22:37):
So Kennedy's an environmentallawyer, okay?
It's insane, right?
SPEAKER_02 (22:42):
Yeah, it is.
It's like the game, I equate itto the game of telephone when we
were kids.
That's what social media, itkind of is, you know, because
someone is out there doing alecture they have a microphone
on and they're writing on aboard or they have a microphone
in front of them and they'resaying seed oils are terrible
they're causing inflammation inyour body and which leads to
chronic disease and inflammatorydiseases and autoimmune diseases
(23:05):
and and then it just keeps goingon and then fast forward you're
in the gym and you hear peoplesaying i'm off seed oils i feel
great i'm not taking any seedoils anymore i feel amazing and
they don't even know why they'resaying it because someone told
them so All we can go by, likewe said, is the evidence.
And we've dug in.
We're finding out, no, they arenot as bad as everyone says.
(23:27):
Look at your food choices,number one.
They're good.
They're actually good.
Right.
Exactly right.
They're actually good.
And if you want to really besuper self-conscious, you can
limit the amount of oils thatyou need to.
You need some essential fattyacids, but you can limit it and
you can start replacing stuffwith olive oil, avocado oil.
SPEAKER_01 (23:45):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (23:46):
But we do.
And then the other thing I wantto mention too is, and Dr.
Richmond actually put me onthis, omega-3s as a supplement.
So I know you're a big proponentof those.
SPEAKER_01 (23:57):
Well, every cardiac surgeon is.
Cardiologist.
I've lectured on it on the topicbefore, like formal lectures.
That's a whole nother topic ofEPA and DHA, which are the major
components.
And do you want it all?
EPA, fish oil.
Or do you want a combination andall that?
But we'll get into that atanother time.
(24:18):
But the take-home point of thisis, number one, is don't be
willfully ignorant, okay?
And I'm not saying that todemean somebody.
But because you're lazy, it'snot okay.
Don't believe what these peopletell you.
I don't care if you believe whatMike and I tell you.
Do your due diligence.
Get on the internet and Google.
(24:39):
And if we missaid something,please contact us.
We do our due diligence.
So don't be willfully ignorantbecause you're lazy and just
assume what somebody says orwaste your money because the
majority of the stuff that thesepeople sell is a waste of money.
Okay.
And Mike said he more than mebecause he meets a lot of, I
(25:03):
guess it's a Jersey thing.
He meets a lot of guys at thegym who are all like, I'm taking
this and taking this.
I feel 20 years younger.
And they still look their age.
He doesn't tell him.
It was like shit.
But yeah, but
SPEAKER_02 (25:17):
there's so much stuff overload out there now.
And there's so many people andthey want to believe it.
They really want to believe it,you know, including myself.
So we have you have to do yourown homework and you have to see
what works and and make sureit's not harming you, too.
Because if something's notharming you, then you want to
take it and it's worth a shotfor you, then yes, go ahead.
But our thought is that let'sget some good science behind it.
(25:40):
Hopefully we shed some light onseed oils.
They're fine for you to take.
We have no issue with them.
This is from a heart surgeonthat still will eat stuff
prepared with seed oils.
And we have no issue with it atall.
SPEAKER_01 (25:55):
Absolutely correct.
So all in all, hopefully youenjoyed today's show.
We're going to do plenty more.
Mike was on a little vacay.
So now he's back in action.
So we're going to be back inaction and we're excited.
I'm fired up.
SPEAKER_02 (26:11):
And please send us some messages of what topics you
want to hear.
We're basically going to coverthe important ones, but we also
want to scour social media toget the hot topics that people
are saying.
SPEAKER_00 (26:22):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (26:22):
We'll pick a good topic for next week.
And until then, Dr.
Richmond.
SPEAKER_01 (26:28):
Thank you for listening.
And because when it comes toyour health, Remember, the truth
matters.
SPEAKER_02 (26:33):
It certainly does.
Take care, everyone.
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In 1997, actress Kristin Davis’ life was forever changed when she took on the role of Charlotte York in Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in NYC, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now, Kristin Davis wants to connect with you, the fans, and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes. Together, with Kristin and special guests, what will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. "Are you a Charlotte?" is much more than just rewatching this beloved show, it brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor and of course some optimism.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com