February 27, 2025 • 47 mins
Join us for an enlightening episode as we explore the multifaceted theme of Equality, Diversity, and Inclusion (EDI) within the patent profession. Hosted by Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts, we are thrilled to have guests Greg Iceton and Alexandra Wood share their insights and experiences, shedding light on important EDI concepts and their impact on modern workplaces.
In this episode, we unpack the difference between equality and equity, clearing common misconceptions and emphasizing their roles in fostering an inclusive culture. Our discussion dives into personal narratives highlighting social mobility challenges faced by professionals in the field. You'll hear how these experiences have shaped the EDI Committee's efforts to break the mold and take actionable steps to improve the landscape.
We celebrate the strides made in council meetings and the evolving conversations surrounding EDI, as well as practical strategies organizations can implement to enhance their inclusivity efforts. The energy of this dialogue is complemented by a touch of humor, making what can be a sensitive topic both engaging and relatable for all our listeners.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod
and you are listening to apodcast on intellectual property
brought to you by the Chartered.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Institute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 4 (00:21):
Gwilym another podcast.
How are you?
I love them.
I'm very well.
How are you Well, even afterall these years and all these
many podcasts?
You, I love them, I'm very well.
How are you well, even afterall?
Speaker 5 (00:28):
these years and all these many podcasts, you still
love them.
I'll have to take a deep breathjust before we start and then
we get into the role and rollingand it's it's wrong, it's a
rollout I mean, they have justbecome getting some really nice
people on, interesting people on, and having a conversation with
them, haven't they?
Speaker 4 (00:42):
that's which is great , honestly the last few have
been actually quite a blast, andI've totally forgotten it was a
podcast which could be a bitdangerous I mean, that is that
is truly dangerous, isn't itthat you do you do forget that
you're here to properly recordsomething that will go out to
other people to listen, and andthat you're not just down the
pub with mates, which obviouslysometimes we are when we're
(01:02):
podcasting, and we really mustdo one of those again soon.
Speaker 5 (01:08):
Can we not do all of them like that Honestly?
It's just a great reason to ask.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
It would be lovely to do so, but you're so rarely in
the UK these days.
Speaker 5 (01:16):
That's not entirely.
I'm in Spain at the moment withthe family I think I've
mentioned before the in-lawsdown by Cartagena, near Alicante
in southern Spain.
So all very exciting.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
So the only time the only thing I know about
Cartagena is wasn't it inRomance in the Stone or
something like that?
There was an old 80s film.
Speaker 5 (01:38):
Could be in Colombia.
There's a couple I did want tobook a flight here.
Am I not only in the wrong cityhere thinking, why is it 18?
Speaker 4 (01:45):
hours?
Am I not only in the wrong city, country, but also continent?
Speaker 5 (01:49):
You're on the wrong continent but you're on the
right decade for the film.
So there we go, let's bepositive about that I do.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
How is Spain Weather good Weather?
Speaker 5 (01:58):
looking after you.
Weather's nice and I'm reallyenjoying it because I'm starting
to find out what the what canthe local people do?
And they do actually do thingslike go for paella together and
have siestas.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
It's quite incredible I love how your pronunciation
is so on the nose spanish nowthere's a lot of pressure.
Speaker 5 (02:18):
I fly to murcia airport as well.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
I'm a lot of pressure not to mangle it, but it's
actually probably yeah, I thinkwe said on a previous podcast
wouldn't beth now be one of yourgreatest critics when it comes
to your pronunciation?
Speaker 5 (02:31):
oh, she just laughs at me.
Honestly, I'm like I make.
I make up words as well.
I just make up.
I'm trying to get a straw forher.
Yesterday from the cafe, I justmade a word up, but I mined it
and then it worked out what Imeant.
So there, there we go.
I think the word for straw ispojita and I think I said palito
or something.
She just said no, whatever itis, we haven't got one of them.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
Lovely to see you again.
When are you back in the UK?
When do I get to see you inperson?
Speaker 5 (03:01):
I'm back on Thursday.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
So I'm here for council next week.
Ah, ok, council next week.
Ah okay, council, let's see.
Okay, I might catch up then.
Probably then should we get ourguests on and do a proper
podcast.
Yes, so today we're looking atall things edi, which I'll say
equality, diversity andinclusion or inclusivity.
But I also know that equalityand equity tend to be sort of
(03:26):
used interchangeably in the inthe e bit.
Which is always my big worrywith EDI is I use the wrong
words at the wrong time and getit all um and get it all
horribly wrong.
But I'm hoping that I guesstoday Greg and Alex are going to
say to me now that's fine, aslong as you've got an open
commitment to EDI, it doesn'tmatter if occasionally you muck
it up.
Greg, alex, welcome to thepodcast.
(03:48):
Who, oh Alex, you go first,alex, introduce yourself to the
listeners, because Greg's beenon before so they know him.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
He's old news.
Hello, thank you so much forhaving me.
I was quite disappointed when Igot the Zoom link.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
I thought I was going to be in the pub.
This is what I've listened to.
This podcast it's.
I swear you've always been inthe pub.
We've been threatened by andreato get her onto a pub podcast.
So maybe we'll do edi too atsome point this year and get
andrea and you guys on it.
Well, that would be nice, I'mjust down.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
I'm just down the road from sepa, so it'd be
perfect, sorry.
So my name is alex wood.
I am the deputy chair of cpa'sedi committee, a european patent
attorney at hgf.
I've been in the profession foruh coming up to seven years now
.
I think.
I've been part of the cpa edisince, since it was created
right at the beginning with greg, and yeah, I specialize in life
(04:37):
sciences, but that's not veryexciting for this podcast, but I
just thought I'd throw it inthere just in case oh, I don't
know it's.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
It's quite, quite nice occasionally to get into
sort of some of the techie legalstuff, so we might go there and
before Greg comes in.
So the interesting thing aboutthe SEPA EDI committee is it was
we did actually create it inresponse to a challenge from
Andrea Brewster, leader of IPInclusive, because I think we
were becoming too complacent andtoo reliant on IP Inclusive to
(05:03):
sort stuff out for us.
And Andrea attended a councilmeeting and the challenge was
come on, you're growing up now,yeah, you, you've got a handle
on what this EDI thing is.
You need to break out a wee bitand do some of the stuff
through your own thinking andyour own creativity and your own
engineering.
And Greg very kindly said hewould chair the committee.
So Greg hello, who are you?
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Hello?
Yes, so I'm old news, but yeah,I'm Greg Eyston.
I'm chair of the EDI committee,working out here in Germany,
and have been in the professionfor 17 years and have been on
council since 2016.
So, council member all the wayout here in the deutschland.
(05:44):
Yeah, so I I think that youknow we started the edi
committee, as you say, lee um,off the back of andrea,
challenging us to make sure thatwe have something up and
running, um, and make sure thatwe are representing our members,
all of our members, and thatthere is a channel for us to
discuss EDI-related issues withcouncil directly through the EDI
(06:06):
committee.
And essentially, that's what wehave done.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
We've set up the committee in 2021, and we are
all working together to discusshot topics that are important
for our members and also toensure that SEPA, internally and
externally, is well aware ofthese topics and and you know,
we connect on them and do youfeel, can I just sort of touch
(06:32):
on the council bit for a moment,because I know when we first
started to have theseconversations at council before
the EDI committee, when Andreawas very much sort of pushing at
doors in terms of the work ofIP inclusive, sometimes the
conversations can be a littlebit strained and a little bit
difficult, I think probably forthe reasons that I said earlier
about people being concernedthat they get the language right
(06:52):
.
Have you found that improve oncouncil?
Have you seen council change inthe way that it talks about EDI
?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Well, I think that council has changed a lot since
I started anyway.
I mean, I think that therepresentation of people on
council has changed a lot.
I do feel that, you know, it'sa broad spectrum of people on
council now in-house privatepractice.
I think that the conversationsthat we're having now are
(07:21):
certainly bettered by having anEDI committee, because then it's
us bringing things to the table.
You know, having that slot inthe council meetings to discuss
EDI issues, things that havecome up in the committee
meetings, and things like that.
I do think it gives us aplatform now to say, yeah, this
is what's been happening, thisis what we're going to do.
Do we have council approval,all of those things, whereas
(07:43):
before it was a standing agenda,right, and we'd probably just
gloss over it because there was,you know, unless there was
something of absolutesignificance.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
We didn't really talk about all of the little things
that perhaps we have beenworking on over the past few
years so I think for me and Iwill let william come in in a
moment, but but he in part wasresponsible for this
conversation I think councilshowed its maturity around EDI
at our meeting in February.
Now I'm not going to go sort ofto the dark side in terms of
(08:16):
talking about the politics ofthis, but we did have a
conversation at council aboutthe current spotlight that there
is on EDI in terms of the noiseto counter it from particular
angles and perspectives, and Ithink what was refreshing for me
was we had people sat aroundthe council table that were
prepared to have that difficultconversation, who previously
(08:36):
wouldn't have contributed.
So they felt sort of engagedand able to do so and able to do
so.
And also there was consensusacross council that now,
particularly as IP Inclusiveapproaches its 10th anniversary,
is a really good time torestate our commitment, not just
for SEPA as an organisation butalso for us, the leadership
council, to do so individually.
(08:58):
So I certainly have theintention to restate my leader's
pledge around my personalcommitment to EDI and I just I
thought that showed a realmaturity of thinking from
council for it to be able tohave that conversation and to
want to be quite open in its, inits declaration of its
commitment to EDI.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Just for I'm not part of council, so I think it's
quite interesting to seeperspective from someone who
only kind of hears what happensat council meetings and feeds
back.
And I think I've definitelyseen a change from like
council's reactions to when weput forward as part of the CPDI
committee, put forward ideas.
I find it's a lot more likestronger in their response as
well.
So it's not sometimes it wasalways, I felt at least pushed
(09:39):
back sometimes and I feel likenow as a committee sorry we've
got a lot more confidence inwhat we're doing and who we are
now.
I think at the beginning, thefirst couple of years I think,
greg, you'd probably agree withthis we were just trying to find
our feet, trying.
You know what was CPEDI, howdid we fit in with council?
What was our role within this,within CEPA?
And I think now we've got a bitmore confidence.
(10:02):
Our ideas are being put forwardwith a bit more strength as
well to council and on top ofthat, you know we've had CPEDI
members now join council.
I know Claire is now a member ofcouncil.
She was part of CPEDI committeeagain, I think from the
beginning, greg.
So it's great to see, you know,members of our committee go
forward.
I think that's a lot to do withGreg.
I mean, he'll probably hate mefor saying this, but I think
(10:23):
he's a real inspiration.
He came to it.
He's been a plug for SEPACouncil, telling us how great it
is and to join.
And having someone like himrepresent SEPA EDI means, I
think, people from our committeehave been more open to the idea
of joining as well.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Thanks, alex, that's really kind.
I'm not sure that's true, butthere we go.
I knew you would say that no,but I mean I think that
certainly you know the EDRcommittee.
When we set it up, like Alexsaid, we were finding our feet
and and yeah, I completely agreewith you I think that now we
have this sort of feeling thatyou know, we have the support of
council, we have the support ofum you, lee and and Gwilym at
(11:01):
SEPA to be able to bring thesethings forward.
It always feels, feelscomfortable, it feels safe, it
feels like a good environmentfor our members to be in,
certainly on the EDI committee.
So I mean, you know it's littlesteps, but we're getting there.
One of the questions that I getfrequently is you know what's
the difference between IPinclusive and the SEPA's EDI
(11:22):
committee and what you know?
There must be an incredibleamount of overlap there, which
we are fully aware that there isan amount of overlap.
We have some people that are onthe EDI committee at SEPA who
are also members of IP inclusiveand active in IP inclusive.
We don't want to double downour efforts.
We want to make sure that weare working together and I think
(11:45):
that after we've now found ourfeet.
I think that one of the thingsthat I would like to do with the
edi committee and I'm sure alexgreegs is trying to strengthen
our ties with ip inclusive, youknow, maybe get those
conversations started now.
I think it's an appropriate timethat we start not merging
together, but, you know, likestrengthening our ties so that
we're in communication with eachother, we're not treading on
(12:06):
each other's toes, we're makingsure that our events don't
coincide with their events,things like this and it's and I
suppose, the other, the thingabout the edi committee within
sepa is that you know, we'retrying to look at our internal
governance as well, not just,you know, outward looking, which
we're trying to see how we canchange things edi related within
seeker itself, so that, youknow, is a big difference.
(12:28):
But again, that's something thatwe want to work with ip
inclusive with in the future.
And the other thing that Ithink that we would really like
to do is strengthen as, as yousaid, lee, you know, like world
stage of edi um is under themicroscope.
There's certain countries whoare doing really well and you
know, I think that there arecertain countries that could
(12:49):
learn from others, and I dothink that perhaps this might be
the year that we need tostrengthen our ties
internationally and try and getthose conversations going with
people on an international level.
Speaker 4 (13:02):
Yeah, and I think that's a really good point.
Can I do something that's a bitunusual?
Gwendo, know you want to speakand I will let you speak in a
moment, but I don't often readfrom a script.
But if it's okay with you andwith greg and with alex, I'd
quite like to just restate the,the current seeper commitment,
to see if we're stillcomfortable with it and and how,
how we feel about it.
So this is what we saycurrently about our commitment.
(13:23):
So everybody belongs here.
We exist in a global,multicultural world and we want
SEPA to reflect that.
We want all our people ourmembers, our volunteers and our
staff to go and thrive throughtheir relationship with SEPA.
Our focus on diversity andinclusion will attract talented
people and will keep our peopleengaged and supportive of our
work.
As a professional membershipassociation.
(13:44):
We will treat people fairly andequitably.
We will ensure equality ofopportunity for all our people.
Above all, we will create anenvironment where our people,
regardless of background orpersonal circumstance, feel
valued.
That still feels about right tome, I think.
Other than restating that Idon't think we're far off, the
mark are we?
Speaker 2 (14:06):
No, I think that that's well certainly what I
stand for, and I think that it'swhat everybody else on
certainly on our committee, havestood for, because we put it in
our terms of reference yeah,it's, it's an important
commitment to have and, and Ithink that we've nailed it
there- and I think it'scontinuous commitment as well.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
It's not something that we've achieved it and then
it it ends.
Speaker 5 (14:26):
It has to be a continuous effort reflecting on
what we did discuss at counciland I think is, politics aside,
there's there was pragmatics toit, but having that kind of
original position really, reallyhelps, and I think it shows the
transition that we've seen,because the pragmatics of it is
that dei policies are notnecessarily legal in some
(14:50):
territories now potentially not,not legal in those aspects of
them at least, and in particular, previously, when it's been a
matter of saying to businessesget more involved in dei.
You know there's loads ofreasons to it.
We give lots of differentreasons for it.
We said it's the right thing todo six, one box.
We've said, um, that it's uh,diversity is actually improves
the business.
(15:11):
Of course, we said that it'svery attractive to the next
generation of graduates.
Thank you, next generation, forbringing your conscience with
you, which is really good.
But we've also said, and,realistically, when you come to
pitch some businesses, it's avery important part of the pitch
what are your policies there?
And that last one's changed alittle bit, because of the legal
(15:32):
situation, shall we say, and sothere's a risk that,
pragmatically, business will sayclients don't ask for it
anymore.
So therefore we don't need todo it.
And the lovely thing is that,because we've got all these
other reasons and becauseeverything's become so embedded
through, like the referencepledges and through these
commitments, definitely theposition in council is OK.
It's still the right thing todo.
We need to be careful, we needto actually not do risky things,
(15:54):
but we can continue to do it,and so I think what's happened
over the last few years isoriginally, I think, through
Andrea's amazing efforts you'vealways been a huge champion of
this for projecting everybodyout.
The following wind is there, sopeople kind of think it's okay,
we can do things.
We can keep within theconstraints and still do,
absolutely do the right thing.
And it's been really good to seeand I think council, as you say
, maybe a few years ago mighthave been slightly more focused
(16:17):
on the straight pragmatics can'tdo anymore.
Let's move on as opposed towhat can we do, what can we do,
do right.
So I thought that was a reallypositive meeting and a really
positive message and, alex, I'mglad you're saying that that's
percolating through.
People are getting that and onthat point I mean.
So one of the things I do withAndrew a lot is the senior
leaders stuff.
It's, you know, kind of peoplewho are in a position to be able
(16:38):
to make decisions within theirbusiness, making sure that
they're bought in.
How are you finding yourinteractions with the senior
leaders in the profession.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
How are they doing?
I think some of them are scaredMaybe I'm saying this and
they're not scared at all but mygeneral impression I think some
senior leaders are quiteworried I think Lee actually
touched on it at the beginningabout being scared about not
doing the right thing.
What to say?
Make sure you're saying theright thing.
And I think some companies andsome senior scared to have the
conversation because they mightthink, oh gosh, we're not
(17:08):
currently meeting EDIrequirements or it doesn't look
great.
I always urge them.
You know you need to start.
We're not here to say, oh,you're not very diverse.
We're here to help and if wecan help you in in any way, then
let us know.
And I find senior leadershipskind of nod and say, yes, but it
does require action.
It does require you to act onyour words.
(17:32):
It's easy to say we pledge acommitment to being diverse.
You have to show that.
You have to stand by.
You have to think outside ofyour own situation and how other
people within your business andwithin the whole their own
current environment, rather thanthinking about other people and
(17:54):
how they might feel, how theymight be impacted by their
decisions.
And so I think there's like atwo-fold thing.
It's one is having the beingbrave enough to have the
conversation in the first placeand open up that discussion and
that being welcomed and notbeing a worry for them.
And then the second thing wouldbe, once you do have that
conversation, try and actuallyact upon that rather than just
(18:15):
having a lot of words with nolike kind of follow through
afterwards.
Speaker 5 (18:19):
Because I think this has come up a few times on the
podcast.
We've done plenty of podcastson this topic and one of my
perennial questions in terms ofgetting it right is also not so
much putting the words intoaction, just not saying the
wrong thing, and that'sdefinitely a generational issue.
Think for me certainly is Iwant to help, but if I say the
wrong thing, I might I mightinsult or embarrass the person
(18:41):
I'm trying to be helpful with,and the lovely advice that's
always always come back is justbe kind and you'll probably be
okay, which is a really helpfulpiece of advice actually well, I
think that we can, as humanbeings, right, we can all make
mistakes.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
When we're saying things, we don't intentionally
mean them, it doesn't matterwhere we're doing it or what
we're.
What we're doing, we're just,we're human at the end of the
day and I think that as long asyou have empathy and care for
the people, then you will getthere and you might say the
wrong thing, but you know, it'sperfectly okay to be educated
and told no, that's, that's notactually quite the right thing
(19:17):
to say there and learn from itand move on.
You know, I don't think thatthere's problems with people
making mistakes.
I do think that what was, whatwas funny, is reading that
article from Matt Dixon about ishim having to change his accent
when he started the profession?
Obviously Matt Dixon, immediatepast president.
I think that when I started inthe profession, obviously Matt
Dixon, immediate past president.
I think that when I started inthe profession in 2007, I didn't
(19:38):
even think about my accent.
Speaker 4 (19:40):
It just went into this profession unapologetically
, me from the northeast ofEngland, just like hiya all
right, it is an interestingpoint, greg, and it's not
something that's the preserve ofthe patent attorney profession.
I don't speak now with theaccent that I grew up with and
and I don't speak with thatbecause I went into further
(20:01):
education leadership and I cameinto jobs, lead and professional
membership bodies and peopledidn't speak like how I spoke
and I mean, most people canstill get the accent they still.
You know, sometimes I'll slipinto colloquialisms and stuff
like that, but but the realityis, if I was speaking to my mum
and dad, they wouldn'tunderstand me this is actually a
personal kind of passion ofmine as well within the CPEDI,
(20:22):
is I?
Speaker 1 (20:23):
so I went to university in Durham and I
remember I was absolutelyastounded that there was nobody
from the northeast actually atDurham University.
I don't think I met anyone whoactually lived in Newcastle or
Durham when I was there.
And I remember I turned up andI had the strongest Yorkshire
accent.
I'm from Wakefield and I'dnever left at that point and I
had a very strong Yorkshireaccent.
(20:44):
And I turned up at Durham andnobody sounded like me.
And likewise, when I came downto London when I first joined,
my accent had faded slightly butstill had a pretty, pretty
strong Yorkshire accent.
Um, and again, there wasn'treally anybody with a Yorkshire
accent at my firm and you knowit was kind of like a funny joke
that we had that I needed likesubtitles but it thankfully I
(21:05):
was.
I was like very warmly welcomedat my firm.
So it was.
It was always in my jest, but Iremember thinking actually this
is quite a mate, like quiteastounding that I haven't
actually met anyone really yetin London that is from.
That is a patent attorney thatis from Yorkshire.
And then the recent SEPA EDIresults that came out.
You know we did.
We did the survey.
I was amazed at how many patentattorneys are in the southeast
(21:29):
of England.
I think it was something like45 percent from the southeast of
England or something.
I'd always had that perceptionthat more panattonis were from
the southeast of England, but Iwasn't.
I never really had like.
Maybe I thought it was mypersonal, you know situation
that made me feel like that.
But actually the results showthat that is true and I'm really
(21:51):
eager now to you know, makesure the whole of the UK we get
from all over.
I work for HGF, which is apredominantly northern based
firm, and it's interesting nowto see the you know how it
changes across.
So now that I've moved firmswhere the kind of head office is
leads, how that has made I'mnow more open to like and we
(22:15):
have probably have morenortherners than we do
southerners here.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
So it's just interesting, like how, working
at HGF now it's not uncommon forme to hear a Yorkshire accent
yeah, and to be honest, you know, because I'm from Teesside
originally, I think that youknow, had I not gone to, you
know, I went to university inStoke-on-Trent also has an
accent and you know when I wentdown there and I was a smoggy,
(22:38):
you know, everyone's like, oh,who's this, who's this guy?
You know I'm like why is he,why is he talking like this?
And I honestly I don't think,had I not removed myself from
Teesside, I would be a patentattorney today.
Had I stayed in Teesside oreven in the northeast of England
, you know, newcastle, where,like gone to do physics and
astrophysics somewhere elseother than Keele, I genuinely
(23:02):
don't think that I would havebecome a patent attorney because
I don't know that theopportunities back then, in 2007
, were available up in the northof England as predominantly as
they are now and I think thatthat's something you know.
As an EDI committee I've alwayssaid this from the start,
haven't I, alex?
Like there's a lot.
The spectrum of EDI is so broadand the breadth is we, you know
(23:24):
, we also want to look aftersocio-economic divides and and
north-south divide, even in the,even within the profession, you
know, and it's it's the, thewhole breadth of spectrum of
things under the umbrella of ediis there and it's something
that we really want to try andand we're not going to be able
to fix it all.
But, moving from one topic tothe next, you know we can try
(23:47):
and get some more awareness upin the north of england that
this is an opportunity forpeople with stem subjects.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
You, you, know it's really interesting.
So what I'm hearing andreflecting on there, Alex and
Greg, is so ADI is multi-strand,multi-faceted, isn't it?
Yeah, but sometimes if youfocus on one part of it, you can
address all of those.
And what I'm hearing is thatsocial mobility is probably the
big factor here and actually ifyou get social mobility right,
(24:15):
probably by extension start toget the rest of it right.
Is that fair?
Speaker 2 (24:19):
yeah, I said so.
I think that that's fair.
It certainly opens up theopportunities to a lot more
people.
Yeah, I think that that is fair.
Maybe that's something that weneed to prioritize flipping it
around it might.
Speaker 5 (24:32):
I suppose what you might say is stepping back,
having talked about this in lotsof different countries.
Now, actually, funnily enough,with different people and about
their different things.
Different countries havecompletely different angles on
what needs fixing.
You know, the States definitelyvery different from over here,
europe again very different.
I think we, if we were to pointto the weird one, for us it is
class if you want to jump to thereal, the real battle.
(24:53):
Uh, and I've had a talk withsome scandinavian clients about
this and I said what about kindof like my social mobility and
old-class thing?
And I said, what are youtalking about?
And I said, well, the power ofthe accent and the power of the
southeast, whatever it might be,oh, you know, all the education
system, all that, and it wasreally wasn't an issue for them.
They're really interested tohear it and they're fascinated
by my conversation and aboutdifferent accents and how that
(25:14):
does have an impact in the UK,obviously for worse.
But I suppose the bottom lineis that there's different
problems in different places butthey're equality problems in
their own different ways.
And so if social mobility isthe problem here, but it still
reflects into all the otherdifferent diversity areas as
well, because there's a problemunderlying the social mobility
(25:36):
thing that can be different indifferent countries.
The acting thing's particularlyinteresting, I think, because
I've got a weird personally gota weird accent.
I actually had a wolverhamptonaccent until I was nine, full-on
, proper, proper brummie accent,um, but then I obviously moved
out to hong kong and ended upthis slightly weird, weird
accent here and, leo, I rememberyou telling me that your kids
said you sound really differenton the podcast.
(25:57):
So we make these corrections.
It's fascinating, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (26:01):
You mentioned that as well.
The CPEDI committee and Gregand myself are not able to solve
all of these problems withinthe CPEDI committee.
I wish we could probably cureworld hunger whilst we're there.
No, um, yeah, I don't.
I don't think it's.
You know, we're not gonna solvethis like a classic.
(26:23):
Well, you know, whatever itmight be, we're not going to
address all of it within ourcommittee.
But I think it's just I'm alwaysfelt like I wanted to be an
advocate in that respect thateverybody is welcome.
You don't have to have anaccent, you don't have to look a
certain way, you don't have tobe anything.
As long as you want to join theprofession, we'll always
welcome you and that's thegeneral concept.
(26:43):
I try that personally to putout.
I try and pull that through theEDI committee, that everyone is
welcome.
I try to be more representativefor everyone so everyone can
maybe see themselves within SIPA.
There's someone that they mightsee themselves in if that makes
sense.
So if, let's say, someone fromWakefield decides I fancy being
a patent attorney or someonefrom Yorkshire and they might
(27:04):
hear this podcast, they mightthink, oh well, look, here's
someone from Yorkshire or, inGreg's case, newcastle.
You know, look, now I'm more.
Hopefully they're more likelyto join, or hopefully they feel
more welcome here, um as as as aresult of that.
So yeah that's.
I'm not naive enough, I suppose, to think we're going to solve
the, you know, all of the classissues and everyone suddenly is
(27:27):
going to go to university and doa stem subject and become
patent attorneys.
God, I hope not, because I'd bequite a boring.
Speaker 5 (27:32):
That's the dream.
No, that's the dream.
That's the dream.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Everyone just said run away I'm not sure how much
of a fun world that would be ifwe all became patent attorneys
so I'm, I'm, I'm conscious oftime, and at the moment we've
been doing sort of helicopterview stuff, haven't we?
Speaker 4 (27:54):
we've been sort of up there in the clouds looking at
the big picture On a day-to-daybasis.
What's currently taxing thecommittee, greg?
What are your two or threebiggies that you're currently
looking at?
Speaker 2 (28:06):
At the moment we're still working on the reasonable
adjustments from the PEB thathave been altered.
We just want to make sure thatthey're up to scratch and that
we are leading as gold standardon the reasonable adjustments
there.
So there's still a bit of workto be done on behind the scenes,
but Alex and I are on top ofthat.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
In collaboration with the new EQEs as well.
We're hoping to open up thatdoor as well, yeah.
Speaker 4 (28:31):
Reasonable adjustments conversation for the
new EQE examse exams as welland yeah, sorry to cut across it
there, but in my experiencethere's always been a disconnect
between how reasonableadjustments are treated in the
uk, which historically seem tobe really, really good, and
perhaps in it with the eqes,where maybe the perspective on
what a reasonable adjustment ishas always been a little bit
(28:51):
different, because obviously theview across europe is as I
think Graham said earlier peoplelook at EDI differently in in
different countries.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Yeah, I think it's hard for the, the EQE
secretariat and the exam systemfor the EQEs because they don't
have a set country that they'refollowing.
That defines disability, thathas that they can follow.
It's an internationalorganization and as a result of
that it's up to them really todecide what they do and they
(29:20):
have to try and fit into all ofthe different countries and make
sure they're not treading onanyone's toes.
And I think up to now therehasn't really been a set policy,
or at least a published policy,so it's just trying to work
with them, like, like we say, wehope the UK will lead by
example.
Speaker 4 (29:37):
Sorry, Greg, I'll cut you off there.
So reasonable adjustments,number one.
What else is on the radar?
Speaker 2 (29:42):
I guess what else we're trying to do is we're
trying to get some events,regular events.
Well, not too regular, butevery quarter or every half a
year we're trying to set up someevents that are EDI related and
perhaps won't be a happy hourin a pub, but might be somewhere
of cultural importance and makeit a rather interesting evening
(30:05):
, rather than just going to thepub, which we're hoping to do
this year.
Alex, you're going to bespeaking at the Empowerment.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Empower Her event.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Empower Her event.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
yeah, with the events angle just speaking at the
empowerment empower her event,with the events angle just
having.
Now we're more comfortable withwhat the committee is and what
we're doing, just becomingmaking people more aware that we
exist really and just showingpeople that we're here.
And we're here if you want toreach out, if you've got any
ideas that might help.
Sepa I spoke at SEPA congress.
We hosted the pre-conferenceevent at SEPA Congress and I
spoke there on behalf of SEPAEDI.
(30:36):
Likewise, I'm hosting thechairing sorry the SEPA ZDI
event for SEPA women in ip,empower her event as well.
There's some amazing peoplespeaking.
I'm very honored to be thechair for that.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
So yeah, that's on the 6th of march and so yeah,
just just making people more,more aware that the cpedi
committee exists, as well ashosting our own events yes, no,
the other thing that we'relooking at into what we're
looking into is the making surethat we have a good
representation of speakers atevents and things and webinars
and seminars and things likethat.
Now, we can't do that alone asan EDI committee, so we I
(31:16):
suppose this is an appeal fromthe EDI committee here to anyone
who's listening, who would liketo volunteer, be a speaker at
webinars or seminars or regionalevents to please get in touch
with SEPA and then we can.
We can have a look and, and youknow, sort of have a good
representation of members atthese events, but it does
(31:37):
require volunteers and peoplethat are willing to give up some
time to do these things and andI think that if we all work
together, we can give a goodbreadth of of membership, uh, at
these events oh, and we'recurrently organizing the cpi
journal oh yes, we are yeah,yeah
(32:00):
that's a big one.
Yeah, yeah, it's going well,actually.
Yeah, uh, we've got some.
We've got quite a few peoplelined up giving articles.
We are very excited to announcethat, hopefully, on the edition
that we are sending out inapril, there will be a text to
text, to speech function on thewebsite, which would then enable
(32:21):
everyone to be able to listento the articles.
So, yeah, so it's going reallywell.
We will have a new section,which will be meet the council
member, and I'll start that oneoff and see if we can carry that
through Journal editions.
But you know, after about 20 ofthose it might get a bit boring
, but we'll see how it goes.
But, yeah, we'll do the meetthe council member and then, of
course, in the journal will bethe usual bits of patent law and
(32:44):
you know the legal stuff.
So, but it should be good oh,thanks both for coming on.
Speaker 4 (32:49):
It feels to me like we're, um, coming to a
conclusion and paying on time.
If I may say, it's almost likewe're getting good at this,
guillem.
It's almost like we're gettinggood at this.
Just before we close, though,uh, we always give our guests
the opportunity to do this.
Are you sat there thinking, oh,we didn't get the chance to say
this, or they didn't ask thatquestion?
Is there anything else you wantto squeeze in?
Is that a no?
Speaker 1 (33:09):
I've got one thing I could squeeze in.
Oh go for it, which for me, it'sjust well.
The first is a plug for theCPDI committee in terms of
people wanting to join.
We haven't really welcomed anynew members for some time now.
Greg, I think you'll agree andI'm very eager to make sure
we're representative across thewhole of SIPA.
(33:32):
So please if you're listeningto this, I suppose and you don't
have to be a patent attorney inprivate practice to be part of
SIPA.
You don't even have to be apatent attorney.
You know we welcome everyone,from trainees, paralegals, all
of you.
Please feel free to join thecommittee in-house private
practice.
Whatever your role is withinSEPA, it would be great to have
(33:55):
more people join the committeewho are eager to make a change
and help the committee.
And my second thing is just tosay that if anyone I appreciate
the current landscape we're inedi is perhaps taking a, let's
say, a bit of a hit, just knowthat the cp edi committee remain
dedicated and we're still here.
(34:16):
We'll still continue tochampion diversity within cpa.
We still stand by everythingthat we are as a committee and
if anyone feels like they needto talk to someone, you know the
cp edi committee are here andwe're here to listen as well, if
they need, if they want tospeak to anyone and that's my
yeah, and that's a really lovelyplug.
Speaker 4 (34:33):
To end on, alex, I think it's um, it's important to
say, isn't it?
The committee is there as muchto listen and to support as it
as it is to be a be a sort oflike an activist engine for um,
for cpa.
In that sense, I'll thank youboth for coming on.
Uh, but greg knows that we'vealways got something up our
sleeve at the end because wedon't we, we don't just end this
(34:53):
podcast like that.
Oh no, we normally have somesort of tangential question at
the end, don't worry.
So.
So gilliam and I've just beenhaving a chat in the chat and
when we have like a serious part, I know we've approached this
with a degree of sort oflight-heartedness and humor, but
it's quite a serious subjectand I think it deserves a
closing question that doesn'ttake us too far off beat.
(35:14):
So early earlier on you wereall talking about how your early
experiences of university went,and you know whether that did
or didn't involve a change ofaccent, or did or didn't mean
that you could visually seepeople who were like you, and it
got me to thinking.
So I'm gonna ask gullum first,because I know he's a physicist
and we've talked a lot about hisphysicistism in the past if
(35:37):
that's a, if that's a word but Idon't know why he's a physicist
.
I don't know why that was yoursort of subject of choice.
So get ready, alex and Greg,because it's coming your way.
Why physics?
Why was that your go-to?
Speaker 5 (35:55):
I was quite a geek believe it or not, at school,
but academically I was alwayskind of.
I was not on any sports teams,but I was probably quite good
academically and I was actuallyquite good on the English side
as well.
I may have mentioned I won acouple of poetry prizes at
(36:15):
school, but when I was in juniorschool and I was kind of, there
was always me and this ladycalled lady, who's a girl.
Then she's now.
She's now flautist with themunich, munich, uh, philharmonic
, I think, or something calledjenny nancarrow.
Hi, jenny, not spoken since Iwas 11.
Remember your name?
Um, we always I got up againsteach other, kind of first and
second in the class, and at theend of junior school jenny
nankaro got top in english and Igot second and I got top in in
(36:38):
science and she got second and Ipacked that away, uh, forgot
about it.
But the outcome was I alwaysthought I was a scientist, first
because of that, literallybecause of that.
So when I got to my choices atGCSE and for A-level, I mostly
went down the science routebecause I was a scientist in my
head and then when I actuallydid like the VIX, it was great.
(36:58):
I got to university in about ayear and a half and I asked
myself the same question why amI doing this?
Speaker 4 (37:04):
And I thought, oh my God, it's because of jenny
nancaro there was an answer Iwasn't expecting, so I'll try
and pin that into my memory now.
So you are a physicist becauseof jenny nancaro I hope she
listens to this so do I, I'mactually
Speaker 1 (37:20):
freaked out that quilliam knows everything about
it I know he's dedicated hiswhole life and career based on
when she was 11.
Speaker 4 (37:27):
greg's gonna try and find her in Munich now.
And Alex, what did you do atuni and why?
Why did you do it?
Speaker 1 (37:37):
So I did biology at Durham University and mine is a
bit more close to home.
So my mum is a mathematicianand she's very inspiring as well
.
My mum, she's one of the firstpeople to do maths and maths in
maths at university that shewent to and I always thought I
(37:59):
was going to be a mathematicianand I tried to follow in her
footsteps and did maths andfurther maths at A level and
then quickly realised I'm notactually that good at maths.
So I was like, oh, I'm gonnahave to pivot away from this.
I'm not sure I can.
I would.
I tried to.
I tried to keep up with her, um, but I soon realised she's
naturally gifted at maths andI'm not so.
Thankfully I had science as abackup and at that point I was.
(38:22):
You know, physics wasn't reallyfor me and it was always a
toss-up between biology andchemistry and I was tempted to
do biochemistry.
Durham doesn't really allow inyour first year, you know,
combined sciences.
They're quite strict in thatyou have to pick one.
So I ended up picking biologyand since then I just became
fascinated with the human body,what it's capable of achieving,
(38:46):
and then it just carried on fromthere, really found out about
the patent attorney professionthrough this bio enterprise
module that they do at Durham,which is really.
It's such a good module to takeif you're at Durham, if you're
any university.
It's a business and sciencemodule essentially and it's
really good.
You kind of have like a startupcompany.
(39:06):
I think I learned more aboutyou know the world and how it
works from that module than Idid my whole university degree
and it was really good andthat's how I ended up really in
the patent attorney profession.
Couldn't be a scientist, so didbiology instead, basically.
Speaker 4 (39:23):
Also, fab, that you discovered the patent attorney
profession whilst you were atuniversity rather than after
Greg.
You and I have probably hadthis conversation before.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Yeah, we have.
I know we have.
I can't believe you're doingthis to me.
Speaker 4 (39:39):
But I've not done this deliberately.
Come on now.
You see me, you see me, yes.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
So when I was finishing at school I thought
I'd like to go to university.
I really want to be an airlinepilot.
That was the first thing that Ireally, really wanted to do.
And when I finished school Iwas like I really want to be an
airline pilot and I knew that Ineeded to have science degree to
sort of bolster my chances ofbecoming an airline pilot.
(40:05):
And then, when I was lookingthrough prospectuses for
universities, I came acrossKeele University, because
they're one of the onlyuniversities in the country that
allow you to do two completelydifferent subjects joined
together, and it's a dual degree.
At that point I decided that Iwould like to try to be the
prime minister on the mean.
(40:25):
So I started doing astrophysicsand politics whilst I was at
university.
It just turns out that I wasreally, really bad at politics
like really bad at it, and inthe end I had to go and beg the
dean of the physics departmentto allow me to do astrophysics
and politics no, sorry,astrophysics and physics,
because apparently I was reallygood at physics but really,
(40:46):
really bad at politics.
So I dropped politics andcarried on with physics and
astrophysics and in my finalyear that was where I went down
to the British Airways cadetscheme in Bournemouth to do
their interview tests and thingslike that, of which I passed
all of them and everything wasall good to go, but then,
(41:08):
unfortunately, due to medicalcircumstances, they couldn't
allow me to continue in theprocess.
They did invite me to pay formyself, which would have been
150,000 pounds, of which ofwhich I didn't have.
That money, who does?
And then, as I came back fromBournemouth to heel, I saw a
notice on the notice boardsaying have you thought about
(41:30):
being a partner attorney?
And I had not, and at thatmoment I did.
And then the rest is historythat's astonishing.
Speaker 5 (41:38):
So I think I think darth sidious started doing
astrophysics and um politicswhen he kicked off as emperor of
the dark side of the universe.
Speaker 4 (41:47):
So you know, you're putting in good footsteps there
I'm I'm just fascinated thatgreg seems to think that you
need to be good at politics tobe in politics yeah, quickly
realized that's not true andalso wasn't very good at it
anyway, so maybe I could stillbe prime minister, who knows so
I know, I know about thequestion.
(42:07):
I've actually forgotten what thequestion is, lee, but bouncing
it back to you, I was asking youthree why you chose your
original kind of careertrajectories, in terms of why
you studied for the subjects youdid at university.
I didn't go, gwilym, so youcan't ask me that question, lee
why did you?
Speaker 5 (42:28):
I know the answer to everything because you told
you've done enough podcasts.
There's not a lot of backstory.
Why?
Why did you get a tortoise?
Speaker 4 (42:37):
why?
What was that?
Speaker 2 (42:41):
I don't know, why did you get a tortoise?
Speaker 5 (42:43):
I know I became a slumber.
I know why he went intoeducation.
I know I went to sleep becausehe did that in he went into
education.
I know why he went to sleepbecause he did that in the last
blooming podcast.
I don't know why he got atortoise.
I'm just trying to find to keepthe flow.
Speaker 4 (42:57):
I have a sneaky, suspicious feeling that we did
do this question really earlydoors in the podcast and you
might remember it when I startto tell you the story.
So I used to take number six,child number two, daughter evie,
to her sort of like preschoolthing junior, you know, before
you go to infant school, andstuff like that and I always
(43:18):
used to get talking to like theparents at the gate and I was
speaking to a sort of the parentwho was probably evie's best
friend at that time at school,so either she'd do four or five,
whatever it was was, and shejust said, oh, I re-homed
tortoises and I had always, Ialways wanted a tortoise.
Haven't had one when I was achild, I've had several when I
was a child and they all mettheir ends horribly through
disastrous accidents at home,like a wardrobe falling on top
(43:39):
of one oh my gosh, yeah, yeah,yeah.
And another one turning itselfupside down for far too long at
the garden before we found itand it's sort of like suffocated
itself.
I always felt guilty about myprevious ability to look after a
tortoise when I was a child andthis woman was talking about
this tortoise that she had thathad a bit of a wonky mouth, it
(44:01):
had a bit of a deformed shelland all of these kinds of things
, and I just felt, I just feltthat I was destined to adopt
this tortoise.
So, yeah, went round to ourhome that evening and adopted
him.
Bizarrely, uh, because we'vegot his.
We've got his birth certificate, his hatching certificate,
whatever, as you call itdiscovered when I went to pick
him up that he hatched on evie'sthe day he was born so yeah, so
(44:21):
they share a birthday.
they share an age, which means Ican always remember how old he
is.
So he's 17 at the moment.
He'll be 18 this year.
We need to do something tocelebrate his birthday and, for
those who don't know, his nameis Albert Treacle.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Is Evie happy that she essentially is, being that
she shares a birthday with atortoise?
How?
Speaker 4 (44:41):
does she feel?
Oh no, yeah, she loves atortoise.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
Oh good, the tortoise .
Yeah, oh god, I was justchecking like they bond over.
Speaker 4 (44:47):
We, we kind of we don't do this obviously, but it
just seems funny thing to say.
We stick a candle to the top ofhis shell out the garden so she
can go and blow it.
Um, blow the candle out completeroller coaster will answer me
thank you very much, although Ithink it was funny, it was
poignant, it was everything Ihave now thought of a way of not
losing him out the garden.
If I do stick a big candle tohis back, then one, he can't
(45:10):
roll over, he can't turn himselfover, and two, wherever he is
in the undergrowth we can seehim, because he'll have a big
candle going around.
Speaker 5 (45:16):
Get one of those.
Remember, in Starsky and Hutchyou used to stick the light, the
flashing light, on the car.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Yeah, it might be safer than a burning flame.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
Yeah, that might be how your next tortoise meets its
end, if it's not a wardrobe, orit falling on its back.
It'll be like you've burned italive.
Speaker 4 (45:33):
Oh god, yeah, okay, I'll forget that one then.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Okay, there was just one thing that I maybe want to
say.
It's a little quote from thisweek's SAG Awards, from Jane
Fonda, but I don't know ifyou've seen it.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
I've seen it, I love it.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
You say it, greg, so she said from from what awards,
greg?
Sorry from the SAG Awards.
Speaker 4 (45:54):
Then I don't know what they are a Screen Actors.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
Guild.
Awards okay, yeah.
So Jane Fonda was picking up aLifetime Achievement Award and
she said in her acceptancespeech empathy is not weak or
woke and, by the way, woke justmeans you give a damn about
other people and I'll tell youwhat greg, you've possibly given
us the little caption for theum, for the podcast, when we um,
when we publish it there we go.
Speaker 4 (46:19):
I can know that.
Oh, thank you both so much forcoming on it's been?
Speaker 2 (46:21):
no, not at all.
Thanks for having us.
Speaker 4 (46:23):
Yeah, the time's flown by, which always does,
when you're having just anengaging, friendly conversation
with people, and Gwilym so Ijust need to do my little close
at the end, which is, if you, ifyou listen to the podcast and
you've sort of found it as funand interesting as we have, then
(46:45):
by all means leave us a littlereview on wherever you pick your
podcast up from, and that meansthat more people will find us.
Um, thanks all.
Cheers, alex, cheers greg thankyou so much thanks, bye thanks.
Outro Music.
(47:15):
He's in a hard to rock music.
Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod
and you are listening to apodcast on intellectual property
brought to you by the Chartered.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Institute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 4 (00:21):
Gwilym another podcast.
How are you?
I love them.
I'm very well.
How are you Well, even afterall these years and all these
many podcasts?
You, I love them, I'm very well.
How are you well, even afterall?
Speaker 5 (00:28):
these years and all these many podcasts, you still
love them.
I'll have to take a deep breathjust before we start and then
we get into the role and rollingand it's it's wrong, it's a
rollout I mean, they have justbecome getting some really nice
people on, interesting people on, and having a conversation with
them, haven't they?
Speaker 4 (00:42):
that's which is great , honestly the last few have
been actually quite a blast, andI've totally forgotten it was a
podcast which could be a bitdangerous I mean, that is that
is truly dangerous, isn't itthat you do you do forget that
you're here to properly recordsomething that will go out to
other people to listen, and andthat you're not just down the
pub with mates, which obviouslysometimes we are when we're
(01:02):
podcasting, and we really mustdo one of those again soon.
Speaker 5 (01:08):
Can we not do all of them like that Honestly?
It's just a great reason to ask.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
It would be lovely to do so, but you're so rarely in
the UK these days.
Speaker 5 (01:16):
That's not entirely.
I'm in Spain at the moment withthe family I think I've
mentioned before the in-lawsdown by Cartagena, near Alicante
in southern Spain.
So all very exciting.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
So the only time the only thing I know about
Cartagena is wasn't it inRomance in the Stone or
something like that?
There was an old 80s film.
Speaker 5 (01:38):
Could be in Colombia.
There's a couple I did want tobook a flight here.
Am I not only in the wrong cityhere thinking, why is it 18?
Speaker 4 (01:45):
hours?
Am I not only in the wrong city, country, but also continent?
Speaker 5 (01:49):
You're on the wrong continent but you're on the
right decade for the film.
So there we go, let's bepositive about that I do.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
How is Spain Weather good Weather?
Speaker 5 (01:58):
looking after you.
Weather's nice and I'm reallyenjoying it because I'm starting
to find out what the what canthe local people do?
And they do actually do thingslike go for paella together and
have siestas.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
It's quite incredible I love how your pronunciation
is so on the nose spanish nowthere's a lot of pressure.
Speaker 5 (02:18):
I fly to murcia airport as well.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
I'm a lot of pressure not to mangle it, but it's
actually probably yeah, I thinkwe said on a previous podcast
wouldn't beth now be one of yourgreatest critics when it comes
to your pronunciation?
Speaker 5 (02:31):
oh, she just laughs at me.
Honestly, I'm like I make.
I make up words as well.
I just make up.
I'm trying to get a straw forher.
Yesterday from the cafe, I justmade a word up, but I mined it
and then it worked out what Imeant.
So there, there we go.
I think the word for straw ispojita and I think I said palito
or something.
She just said no, whatever itis, we haven't got one of them.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
Lovely to see you again.
When are you back in the UK?
When do I get to see you inperson?
Speaker 5 (03:01):
I'm back on Thursday.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
So I'm here for council next week.
Ah, ok, council next week.
Ah okay, council, let's see.
Okay, I might catch up then.
Probably then should we get ourguests on and do a proper
podcast.
Yes, so today we're looking atall things edi, which I'll say
equality, diversity andinclusion or inclusivity.
But I also know that equalityand equity tend to be sort of
(03:26):
used interchangeably in the inthe e bit.
Which is always my big worrywith EDI is I use the wrong
words at the wrong time and getit all um and get it all
horribly wrong.
But I'm hoping that I guesstoday Greg and Alex are going to
say to me now that's fine, aslong as you've got an open
commitment to EDI, it doesn'tmatter if occasionally you muck
it up.
Greg, alex, welcome to thepodcast.
(03:48):
Who, oh Alex, you go first,alex, introduce yourself to the
listeners, because Greg's beenon before so they know him.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
He's old news.
Hello, thank you so much forhaving me.
I was quite disappointed when Igot the Zoom link.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
I thought I was going to be in the pub.
This is what I've listened to.
This podcast it's.
I swear you've always been inthe pub.
We've been threatened by andreato get her onto a pub podcast.
So maybe we'll do edi too atsome point this year and get
andrea and you guys on it.
Well, that would be nice, I'mjust down.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
I'm just down the road from sepa, so it'd be
perfect, sorry.
So my name is alex wood.
I am the deputy chair of cpa'sedi committee, a european patent
attorney at hgf.
I've been in the profession foruh coming up to seven years now
.
I think.
I've been part of the cpa edisince, since it was created
right at the beginning with greg, and yeah, I specialize in life
(04:37):
sciences, but that's not veryexciting for this podcast, but I
just thought I'd throw it inthere just in case oh, I don't
know it's.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
It's quite, quite nice occasionally to get into
sort of some of the techie legalstuff, so we might go there and
before Greg comes in.
So the interesting thing aboutthe SEPA EDI committee is it was
we did actually create it inresponse to a challenge from
Andrea Brewster, leader of IPInclusive, because I think we
were becoming too complacent andtoo reliant on IP Inclusive to
(05:03):
sort stuff out for us.
And Andrea attended a councilmeeting and the challenge was
come on, you're growing up now,yeah, you, you've got a handle
on what this EDI thing is.
You need to break out a wee bitand do some of the stuff
through your own thinking andyour own creativity and your own
engineering.
And Greg very kindly said hewould chair the committee.
So Greg hello, who are you?
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Hello?
Yes, so I'm old news, but yeah,I'm Greg Eyston.
I'm chair of the EDI committee,working out here in Germany,
and have been in the professionfor 17 years and have been on
council since 2016.
So, council member all the wayout here in the deutschland.
(05:44):
Yeah, so I I think that youknow we started the edi
committee, as you say, lee um,off the back of andrea,
challenging us to make sure thatwe have something up and
running, um, and make sure thatwe are representing our members,
all of our members, and thatthere is a channel for us to
discuss EDI-related issues withcouncil directly through the EDI
(06:06):
committee.
And essentially, that's what wehave done.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
We've set up the committee in 2021, and we are
all working together to discusshot topics that are important
for our members and also toensure that SEPA, internally and
externally, is well aware ofthese topics and and you know,
we connect on them and do youfeel, can I just sort of touch
(06:32):
on the council bit for a moment,because I know when we first
started to have theseconversations at council before
the EDI committee, when Andreawas very much sort of pushing at
doors in terms of the work ofIP inclusive, sometimes the
conversations can be a littlebit strained and a little bit
difficult, I think probably forthe reasons that I said earlier
about people being concernedthat they get the language right
(06:52):
.
Have you found that improve oncouncil?
Have you seen council change inthe way that it talks about EDI
?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Well, I think that council has changed a lot since
I started anyway.
I mean, I think that therepresentation of people on
council has changed a lot.
I do feel that, you know, it'sa broad spectrum of people on
council now in-house privatepractice.
I think that the conversationsthat we're having now are
(07:21):
certainly bettered by having anEDI committee, because then it's
us bringing things to the table.
You know, having that slot inthe council meetings to discuss
EDI issues, things that havecome up in the committee
meetings, and things like that.
I do think it gives us aplatform now to say, yeah, this
is what's been happening, thisis what we're going to do.
Do we have council approval,all of those things, whereas
(07:43):
before it was a standing agenda,right, and we'd probably just
gloss over it because there was,you know, unless there was
something of absolutesignificance.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
We didn't really talk about all of the little things
that perhaps we have beenworking on over the past few
years so I think for me and Iwill let william come in in a
moment, but but he in part wasresponsible for this
conversation I think councilshowed its maturity around EDI
at our meeting in February.
Now I'm not going to go sort ofto the dark side in terms of
(08:16):
talking about the politics ofthis, but we did have a
conversation at council aboutthe current spotlight that there
is on EDI in terms of the noiseto counter it from particular
angles and perspectives, and Ithink what was refreshing for me
was we had people sat aroundthe council table that were
prepared to have that difficultconversation, who previously
(08:36):
wouldn't have contributed.
So they felt sort of engagedand able to do so and able to do
so.
And also there was consensusacross council that now,
particularly as IP Inclusiveapproaches its 10th anniversary,
is a really good time torestate our commitment, not just
for SEPA as an organisation butalso for us, the leadership
council, to do so individually.
(08:58):
So I certainly have theintention to restate my leader's
pledge around my personalcommitment to EDI and I just I
thought that showed a realmaturity of thinking from
council for it to be able tohave that conversation and to
want to be quite open in its, inits declaration of its
commitment to EDI.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Just for I'm not part of council, so I think it's
quite interesting to seeperspective from someone who
only kind of hears what happensat council meetings and feeds
back.
And I think I've definitelyseen a change from like
council's reactions to when weput forward as part of the CPDI
committee, put forward ideas.
I find it's a lot more likestronger in their response as
well.
So it's not sometimes it wasalways, I felt at least pushed
(09:39):
back sometimes and I feel likenow as a committee sorry we've
got a lot more confidence inwhat we're doing and who we are
now.
I think at the beginning, thefirst couple of years I think,
greg, you'd probably agree withthis we were just trying to find
our feet, trying.
You know what was CPEDI, howdid we fit in with council?
What was our role within this,within CEPA?
And I think now we've got a bitmore confidence.
(10:02):
Our ideas are being put forwardwith a bit more strength as
well to council and on top ofthat, you know we've had CPEDI
members now join council.
I know Claire is now a member ofcouncil.
She was part of CPEDI committeeagain, I think from the
beginning, greg.
So it's great to see, you know,members of our committee go
forward.
I think that's a lot to do withGreg.
I mean, he'll probably hate mefor saying this, but I think
(10:23):
he's a real inspiration.
He came to it.
He's been a plug for SEPACouncil, telling us how great it
is and to join.
And having someone like himrepresent SEPA EDI means, I
think, people from our committeehave been more open to the idea
of joining as well.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Thanks, alex, that's really kind.
I'm not sure that's true, butthere we go.
I knew you would say that no,but I mean I think that
certainly you know the EDRcommittee.
When we set it up, like Alexsaid, we were finding our feet
and and yeah, I completely agreewith you I think that now we
have this sort of feeling thatyou know, we have the support of
council, we have the support ofum you, lee and and Gwilym at
(11:01):
SEPA to be able to bring thesethings forward.
It always feels, feelscomfortable, it feels safe, it
feels like a good environmentfor our members to be in,
certainly on the EDI committee.
So I mean, you know it's littlesteps, but we're getting there.
One of the questions that I getfrequently is you know what's
the difference between IPinclusive and the SEPA's EDI
(11:22):
committee and what you know?
There must be an incredibleamount of overlap there, which
we are fully aware that there isan amount of overlap.
We have some people that are onthe EDI committee at SEPA who
are also members of IP inclusiveand active in IP inclusive.
We don't want to double downour efforts.
We want to make sure that weare working together and I think
(11:45):
that after we've now found ourfeet.
I think that one of the thingsthat I would like to do with the
edi committee and I'm sure alexgreegs is trying to strengthen
our ties with ip inclusive, youknow, maybe get those
conversations started now.
I think it's an appropriate timethat we start not merging
together, but, you know, likestrengthening our ties so that
we're in communication with eachother, we're not treading on
(12:06):
each other's toes, we're makingsure that our events don't
coincide with their events,things like this and it's and I
suppose, the other, the thingabout the edi committee within
sepa is that you know, we'retrying to look at our internal
governance as well, not just,you know, outward looking, which
we're trying to see how we canchange things edi related within
seeker itself, so that, youknow, is a big difference.
(12:28):
But again, that's something thatwe want to work with ip
inclusive with in the future.
And the other thing that Ithink that we would really like
to do is strengthen as, as yousaid, lee, you know, like world
stage of edi um is under themicroscope.
There's certain countries whoare doing really well and you
know, I think that there arecertain countries that could
(12:49):
learn from others, and I dothink that perhaps this might be
the year that we need tostrengthen our ties
internationally and try and getthose conversations going with
people on an international level.
Speaker 4 (13:02):
Yeah, and I think that's a really good point.
Can I do something that's a bitunusual?
Gwendo, know you want to speakand I will let you speak in a
moment, but I don't often readfrom a script.
But if it's okay with you andwith greg and with alex, I'd
quite like to just restate the,the current seeper commitment,
to see if we're stillcomfortable with it and and how,
how we feel about it.
So this is what we saycurrently about our commitment.
(13:23):
So everybody belongs here.
We exist in a global,multicultural world and we want
SEPA to reflect that.
We want all our people ourmembers, our volunteers and our
staff to go and thrive throughtheir relationship with SEPA.
Our focus on diversity andinclusion will attract talented
people and will keep our peopleengaged and supportive of our
work.
As a professional membershipassociation.
(13:44):
We will treat people fairly andequitably.
We will ensure equality ofopportunity for all our people.
Above all, we will create anenvironment where our people,
regardless of background orpersonal circumstance, feel
valued.
That still feels about right tome, I think.
Other than restating that Idon't think we're far off, the
mark are we?
Speaker 2 (14:06):
No, I think that that's well certainly what I
stand for, and I think that it'swhat everybody else on
certainly on our committee, havestood for, because we put it in
our terms of reference yeah,it's, it's an important
commitment to have and, and Ithink that we've nailed it
there- and I think it'scontinuous commitment as well.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
It's not something that we've achieved it and then
it it ends.
Speaker 5 (14:26):
It has to be a continuous effort reflecting on
what we did discuss at counciland I think is, politics aside,
there's there was pragmatics toit, but having that kind of
original position really, reallyhelps, and I think it shows the
transition that we've seen,because the pragmatics of it is
that dei policies are notnecessarily legal in some
(14:50):
territories now potentially not,not legal in those aspects of
them at least, and in particular, previously, when it's been a
matter of saying to businessesget more involved in dei.
You know there's loads ofreasons to it.
We give lots of differentreasons for it.
We said it's the right thing todo six, one box.
We've said, um, that it's uh,diversity is actually improves
the business.
(15:11):
Of course, we said that it'svery attractive to the next
generation of graduates.
Thank you, next generation, forbringing your conscience with
you, which is really good.
But we've also said, and,realistically, when you come to
pitch some businesses, it's avery important part of the pitch
what are your policies there?
And that last one's changed alittle bit, because of the legal
(15:32):
situation, shall we say, and sothere's a risk that,
pragmatically, business will sayclients don't ask for it
anymore.
So therefore we don't need todo it.
And the lovely thing is that,because we've got all these
other reasons and becauseeverything's become so embedded
through, like the referencepledges and through these
commitments, definitely theposition in council is OK.
It's still the right thing todo.
We need to be careful, we needto actually not do risky things,
(15:54):
but we can continue to do it,and so I think what's happened
over the last few years isoriginally, I think, through
Andrea's amazing efforts you'vealways been a huge champion of
this for projecting everybodyout.
The following wind is there, sopeople kind of think it's okay,
we can do things.
We can keep within theconstraints and still do,
absolutely do the right thing.
And it's been really good to seeand I think council, as you say
, maybe a few years ago mighthave been slightly more focused
(16:17):
on the straight pragmatics can'tdo anymore.
Let's move on as opposed towhat can we do, what can we do,
do right.
So I thought that was a reallypositive meeting and a really
positive message and, alex, I'mglad you're saying that that's
percolating through.
People are getting that and onthat point I mean.
So one of the things I do withAndrew a lot is the senior
leaders stuff.
It's, you know, kind of peoplewho are in a position to be able
(16:38):
to make decisions within theirbusiness, making sure that
they're bought in.
How are you finding yourinteractions with the senior
leaders in the profession.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
How are they doing?
I think some of them are scaredMaybe I'm saying this and
they're not scared at all but mygeneral impression I think some
senior leaders are quiteworried I think Lee actually
touched on it at the beginningabout being scared about not
doing the right thing.
What to say?
Make sure you're saying theright thing.
And I think some companies andsome senior scared to have the
conversation because they mightthink, oh gosh, we're not
(17:08):
currently meeting EDIrequirements or it doesn't look
great.
I always urge them.
You know you need to start.
We're not here to say, oh,you're not very diverse.
We're here to help and if wecan help you in in any way, then
let us know.
And I find senior leadershipskind of nod and say, yes, but it
does require action.
It does require you to act onyour words.
(17:32):
It's easy to say we pledge acommitment to being diverse.
You have to show that.
You have to stand by.
You have to think outside ofyour own situation and how other
people within your business andwithin the whole their own
current environment, rather thanthinking about other people and
(17:54):
how they might feel, how theymight be impacted by their
decisions.
And so I think there's like atwo-fold thing.
It's one is having the beingbrave enough to have the
conversation in the first placeand open up that discussion and
that being welcomed and notbeing a worry for them.
And then the second thing wouldbe, once you do have that
conversation, try and actuallyact upon that rather than just
(18:15):
having a lot of words with nolike kind of follow through
afterwards.
Speaker 5 (18:19):
Because I think this has come up a few times on the
podcast.
We've done plenty of podcastson this topic and one of my
perennial questions in terms ofgetting it right is also not so
much putting the words intoaction, just not saying the
wrong thing, and that'sdefinitely a generational issue.
Think for me certainly is Iwant to help, but if I say the
wrong thing, I might I mightinsult or embarrass the person
(18:41):
I'm trying to be helpful with,and the lovely advice that's
always always come back is justbe kind and you'll probably be
okay, which is a really helpfulpiece of advice actually well, I
think that we can, as humanbeings, right, we can all make
mistakes.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
When we're saying things, we don't intentionally
mean them, it doesn't matterwhere we're doing it or what
we're.
What we're doing, we're just,we're human at the end of the
day and I think that as long asyou have empathy and care for
the people, then you will getthere and you might say the
wrong thing, but you know, it'sperfectly okay to be educated
and told no, that's, that's notactually quite the right thing
(19:17):
to say there and learn from itand move on.
You know, I don't think thatthere's problems with people
making mistakes.
I do think that what was, whatwas funny, is reading that
article from Matt Dixon about ishim having to change his accent
when he started the profession?
Obviously Matt Dixon, immediatepast president.
I think that when I started inthe profession, obviously Matt
Dixon, immediate past president.
I think that when I started inthe profession in 2007, I didn't
(19:38):
even think about my accent.
Speaker 4 (19:40):
It just went into this profession unapologetically
, me from the northeast ofEngland, just like hiya all
right, it is an interestingpoint, greg, and it's not
something that's the preserve ofthe patent attorney profession.
I don't speak now with theaccent that I grew up with and
and I don't speak with thatbecause I went into further
(20:01):
education leadership and I cameinto jobs, lead and professional
membership bodies and peopledidn't speak like how I spoke
and I mean, most people canstill get the accent they still.
You know, sometimes I'll slipinto colloquialisms and stuff
like that, but but the realityis, if I was speaking to my mum
and dad, they wouldn'tunderstand me this is actually a
personal kind of passion ofmine as well within the CPEDI,
(20:22):
is I?
Speaker 1 (20:23):
so I went to university in Durham and I
remember I was absolutelyastounded that there was nobody
from the northeast actually atDurham University.
I don't think I met anyone whoactually lived in Newcastle or
Durham when I was there.
And I remember I turned up andI had the strongest Yorkshire
accent.
I'm from Wakefield and I'dnever left at that point and I
had a very strong Yorkshireaccent.
(20:44):
And I turned up at Durham andnobody sounded like me.
And likewise, when I came downto London when I first joined,
my accent had faded slightly butstill had a pretty, pretty
strong Yorkshire accent.
Um, and again, there wasn'treally anybody with a Yorkshire
accent at my firm and you knowit was kind of like a funny joke
that we had that I needed likesubtitles but it thankfully I
(21:05):
was.
I was like very warmly welcomedat my firm.
So it was.
It was always in my jest, but Iremember thinking actually this
is quite a mate, like quiteastounding that I haven't
actually met anyone really yetin London that is from.
That is a patent attorney thatis from Yorkshire.
And then the recent SEPA EDIresults that came out.
You know we did.
We did the survey.
I was amazed at how many patentattorneys are in the southeast
(21:29):
of England.
I think it was something like45 percent from the southeast of
England or something.
I'd always had that perceptionthat more panattonis were from
the southeast of England, but Iwasn't.
I never really had like.
Maybe I thought it was mypersonal, you know situation
that made me feel like that.
But actually the results showthat that is true and I'm really
(21:51):
eager now to you know, makesure the whole of the UK we get
from all over.
I work for HGF, which is apredominantly northern based
firm, and it's interesting nowto see the you know how it
changes across.
So now that I've moved firmswhere the kind of head office is
leads, how that has made I'mnow more open to like and we
(22:15):
have probably have morenortherners than we do
southerners here.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
So it's just interesting, like how, working
at HGF now it's not uncommon forme to hear a Yorkshire accent
yeah, and to be honest, you know, because I'm from Teesside
originally, I think that youknow, had I not gone to, you
know, I went to university inStoke-on-Trent also has an
accent and you know when I wentdown there and I was a smoggy,
(22:38):
you know, everyone's like, oh,who's this, who's this guy?
You know I'm like why is he,why is he talking like this?
And I honestly I don't think,had I not removed myself from
Teesside, I would be a patentattorney today.
Had I stayed in Teesside oreven in the northeast of England
, you know, newcastle, where,like gone to do physics and
astrophysics somewhere elseother than Keele, I genuinely
(23:02):
don't think that I would havebecome a patent attorney because
I don't know that theopportunities back then, in 2007
, were available up in the northof England as predominantly as
they are now and I think thatthat's something you know.
As an EDI committee I've alwayssaid this from the start,
haven't I, alex?
Like there's a lot.
The spectrum of EDI is so broadand the breadth is we, you know
(23:24):
, we also want to look aftersocio-economic divides and and
north-south divide, even in the,even within the profession, you
know, and it's it's the, thewhole breadth of spectrum of
things under the umbrella of ediis there and it's something
that we really want to try andand we're not going to be able
to fix it all.
But, moving from one topic tothe next, you know we can try
(23:47):
and get some more awareness upin the north of england that
this is an opportunity forpeople with stem subjects.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
You, you, know it's really interesting.
So what I'm hearing andreflecting on there, Alex and
Greg, is so ADI is multi-strand,multi-faceted, isn't it?
Yeah, but sometimes if youfocus on one part of it, you can
address all of those.
And what I'm hearing is thatsocial mobility is probably the
big factor here and actually ifyou get social mobility right,
(24:15):
probably by extension start toget the rest of it right.
Is that fair?
Speaker 2 (24:19):
yeah, I said so.
I think that that's fair.
It certainly opens up theopportunities to a lot more
people.
Yeah, I think that that is fair.
Maybe that's something that weneed to prioritize flipping it
around it might.
Speaker 5 (24:32):
I suppose what you might say is stepping back,
having talked about this in lotsof different countries.
Now, actually, funnily enough,with different people and about
their different things.
Different countries havecompletely different angles on
what needs fixing.
You know, the States definitelyvery different from over here,
europe again very different.
I think we, if we were to pointto the weird one, for us it is
class if you want to jump to thereal, the real battle.
(24:53):
Uh, and I've had a talk withsome scandinavian clients about
this and I said what about kindof like my social mobility and
old-class thing?
And I said, what are youtalking about?
And I said, well, the power ofthe accent and the power of the
southeast, whatever it might be,oh, you know, all the education
system, all that, and it wasreally wasn't an issue for them.
They're really interested tohear it and they're fascinated
by my conversation and aboutdifferent accents and how that
(25:14):
does have an impact in the UK,obviously for worse.
But I suppose the bottom lineis that there's different
problems in different places butthey're equality problems in
their own different ways.
And so if social mobility isthe problem here, but it still
reflects into all the otherdifferent diversity areas as
well, because there's a problemunderlying the social mobility
(25:36):
thing that can be different indifferent countries.
The acting thing's particularlyinteresting, I think, because
I've got a weird personally gota weird accent.
I actually had a wolverhamptonaccent until I was nine, full-on
, proper, proper brummie accent,um, but then I obviously moved
out to hong kong and ended upthis slightly weird, weird
accent here and, leo, I rememberyou telling me that your kids
said you sound really differenton the podcast.
(25:57):
So we make these corrections.
It's fascinating, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (26:01):
You mentioned that as well.
The CPEDI committee and Gregand myself are not able to solve
all of these problems withinthe CPEDI committee.
I wish we could probably cureworld hunger whilst we're there.
No, um, yeah, I don't.
I don't think it's.
You know, we're not gonna solvethis like a classic.
(26:23):
Well, you know, whatever itmight be, we're not going to
address all of it within ourcommittee.
But I think it's just I'm alwaysfelt like I wanted to be an
advocate in that respect thateverybody is welcome.
You don't have to have anaccent, you don't have to look a
certain way, you don't have tobe anything.
As long as you want to join theprofession, we'll always
welcome you and that's thegeneral concept.
(26:43):
I try that personally to putout.
I try and pull that through theEDI committee, that everyone is
welcome.
I try to be more representativefor everyone so everyone can
maybe see themselves within SIPA.
There's someone that they mightsee themselves in if that makes
sense.
So if, let's say, someone fromWakefield decides I fancy being
a patent attorney or someonefrom Yorkshire and they might
(27:04):
hear this podcast, they mightthink, oh well, look, here's
someone from Yorkshire or, inGreg's case, newcastle.
You know, look, now I'm more.
Hopefully they're more likelyto join, or hopefully they feel
more welcome here, um as as as aresult of that.
So yeah that's.
I'm not naive enough, I suppose, to think we're going to solve
the, you know, all of the classissues and everyone suddenly is
(27:27):
going to go to university and doa stem subject and become
patent attorneys.
God, I hope not, because I'd bequite a boring.
Speaker 5 (27:32):
That's the dream.
No, that's the dream.
That's the dream.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Everyone just said run away I'm not sure how much
of a fun world that would be ifwe all became patent attorneys
so I'm, I'm, I'm conscious oftime, and at the moment we've
been doing sort of helicopterview stuff, haven't we?
Speaker 4 (27:54):
we've been sort of up there in the clouds looking at
the big picture On a day-to-daybasis.
What's currently taxing thecommittee, greg?
What are your two or threebiggies that you're currently
looking at?
Speaker 2 (28:06):
At the moment we're still working on the reasonable
adjustments from the PEB thathave been altered.
We just want to make sure thatthey're up to scratch and that
we are leading as gold standardon the reasonable adjustments
there.
So there's still a bit of workto be done on behind the scenes,
but Alex and I are on top ofthat.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
In collaboration with the new EQEs as well.
We're hoping to open up thatdoor as well, yeah.
Speaker 4 (28:31):
Reasonable adjustments conversation for the
new EQE examse exams as welland yeah, sorry to cut across it
there, but in my experiencethere's always been a disconnect
between how reasonableadjustments are treated in the
uk, which historically seem tobe really, really good, and
perhaps in it with the eqes,where maybe the perspective on
what a reasonable adjustment ishas always been a little bit
(28:51):
different, because obviously theview across europe is as I
think Graham said earlier peoplelook at EDI differently in in
different countries.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Yeah, I think it's hard for the, the EQE
secretariat and the exam systemfor the EQEs because they don't
have a set country that they'refollowing.
That defines disability, thathas that they can follow.
It's an internationalorganization and as a result of
that it's up to them really todecide what they do and they
(29:20):
have to try and fit into all ofthe different countries and make
sure they're not treading onanyone's toes.
And I think up to now therehasn't really been a set policy,
or at least a published policy,so it's just trying to work
with them, like, like we say, wehope the UK will lead by
example.
Speaker 4 (29:37):
Sorry, Greg, I'll cut you off there.
So reasonable adjustments,number one.
What else is on the radar?
Speaker 2 (29:42):
I guess what else we're trying to do is we're
trying to get some events,regular events.
Well, not too regular, butevery quarter or every half a
year we're trying to set up someevents that are EDI related and
perhaps won't be a happy hourin a pub, but might be somewhere
of cultural importance and makeit a rather interesting evening
(30:05):
, rather than just going to thepub, which we're hoping to do
this year.
Alex, you're going to bespeaking at the Empowerment.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Empower Her event.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Empower Her event.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
yeah, with the events angle just speaking at the
empowerment empower her event,with the events angle just
having.
Now we're more comfortable withwhat the committee is and what
we're doing, just becomingmaking people more aware that we
exist really and just showingpeople that we're here.
And we're here if you want toreach out, if you've got any
ideas that might help.
Sepa I spoke at SEPA congress.
We hosted the pre-conferenceevent at SEPA Congress and I
spoke there on behalf of SEPAEDI.
(30:36):
Likewise, I'm hosting thechairing sorry the SEPA ZDI
event for SEPA women in ip,empower her event as well.
There's some amazing peoplespeaking.
I'm very honored to be thechair for that.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
So yeah, that's on the 6th of march and so yeah,
just just making people more,more aware that the cpedi
committee exists, as well ashosting our own events yes, no,
the other thing that we'relooking at into what we're
looking into is the making surethat we have a good
representation of speakers atevents and things and webinars
and seminars and things likethat.
Now, we can't do that alone asan EDI committee, so we I
(31:16):
suppose this is an appeal fromthe EDI committee here to anyone
who's listening, who would liketo volunteer, be a speaker at
webinars or seminars or regionalevents to please get in touch
with SEPA and then we can.
We can have a look and, and youknow, sort of have a good
representation of members atthese events, but it does
(31:37):
require volunteers and peoplethat are willing to give up some
time to do these things and andI think that if we all work
together, we can give a goodbreadth of of membership, uh, at
these events oh, and we'recurrently organizing the cpi
journal oh yes, we are yeah,yeah
(32:00):
that's a big one.
Yeah, yeah, it's going well,actually.
Yeah, uh, we've got some.
We've got quite a few peoplelined up giving articles.
We are very excited to announcethat, hopefully, on the edition
that we are sending out inapril, there will be a text to
text, to speech function on thewebsite, which would then enable
(32:21):
everyone to be able to listento the articles.
So, yeah, so it's going reallywell.
We will have a new section,which will be meet the council
member, and I'll start that oneoff and see if we can carry that
through Journal editions.
But you know, after about 20 ofthose it might get a bit boring
, but we'll see how it goes.
But, yeah, we'll do the meetthe council member and then, of
course, in the journal will bethe usual bits of patent law and
(32:44):
you know the legal stuff.
So, but it should be good oh,thanks both for coming on.
Speaker 4 (32:49):
It feels to me like we're, um, coming to a
conclusion and paying on time.
If I may say, it's almost likewe're getting good at this,
guillem.
It's almost like we're gettinggood at this.
Just before we close, though,uh, we always give our guests
the opportunity to do this.
Are you sat there thinking, oh,we didn't get the chance to say
this, or they didn't ask thatquestion?
Is there anything else you wantto squeeze in?
Is that a no?
Speaker 1 (33:09):
I've got one thing I could squeeze in.
Oh go for it, which for me, it'sjust well.
The first is a plug for theCPDI committee in terms of
people wanting to join.
We haven't really welcomed anynew members for some time now.
Greg, I think you'll agree andI'm very eager to make sure
we're representative across thewhole of SIPA.
(33:32):
So please if you're listeningto this, I suppose and you don't
have to be a patent attorney inprivate practice to be part of
SIPA.
You don't even have to be apatent attorney.
You know we welcome everyone,from trainees, paralegals, all
of you.
Please feel free to join thecommittee in-house private
practice.
Whatever your role is withinSEPA, it would be great to have
(33:55):
more people join the committeewho are eager to make a change
and help the committee.
And my second thing is just tosay that if anyone I appreciate
the current landscape we're inedi is perhaps taking a, let's
say, a bit of a hit, just knowthat the cp edi committee remain
dedicated and we're still here.
(34:16):
We'll still continue tochampion diversity within cpa.
We still stand by everythingthat we are as a committee and
if anyone feels like they needto talk to someone, you know the
cp edi committee are here andwe're here to listen as well, if
they need, if they want tospeak to anyone and that's my
yeah, and that's a really lovelyplug.
Speaker 4 (34:33):
To end on, alex, I think it's um, it's important to
say, isn't it?
The committee is there as muchto listen and to support as it
as it is to be a be a sort oflike an activist engine for um,
for cpa.
In that sense, I'll thank youboth for coming on.
Uh, but greg knows that we'vealways got something up our
sleeve at the end because wedon't we, we don't just end this
(34:53):
podcast like that.
Oh no, we normally have somesort of tangential question at
the end, don't worry.
So.
So gilliam and I've just beenhaving a chat in the chat and
when we have like a serious part, I know we've approached this
with a degree of sort oflight-heartedness and humor, but
it's quite a serious subjectand I think it deserves a
closing question that doesn'ttake us too far off beat.
(35:14):
So early earlier on you wereall talking about how your early
experiences of university went,and you know whether that did
or didn't involve a change ofaccent, or did or didn't mean
that you could visually seepeople who were like you, and it
got me to thinking.
So I'm gonna ask gullum first,because I know he's a physicist
and we've talked a lot about hisphysicistism in the past if
(35:37):
that's a, if that's a word but Idon't know why he's a physicist
.
I don't know why that was yoursort of subject of choice.
So get ready, alex and Greg,because it's coming your way.
Why physics?
Why was that your go-to?
Speaker 5 (35:55):
I was quite a geek believe it or not, at school,
but academically I was alwayskind of.
I was not on any sports teams,but I was probably quite good
academically and I was actuallyquite good on the English side
as well.
I may have mentioned I won acouple of poetry prizes at
(36:15):
school, but when I was in juniorschool and I was kind of, there
was always me and this ladycalled lady, who's a girl.
Then she's now.
She's now flautist with themunich, munich, uh, philharmonic
, I think, or something calledjenny nancarrow.
Hi, jenny, not spoken since Iwas 11.
Remember your name?
Um, we always I got up againsteach other, kind of first and
second in the class, and at theend of junior school jenny
nankaro got top in english and Igot second and I got top in in
(36:38):
science and she got second and Ipacked that away, uh, forgot
about it.
But the outcome was I alwaysthought I was a scientist, first
because of that, literallybecause of that.
So when I got to my choices atGCSE and for A-level, I mostly
went down the science routebecause I was a scientist in my
head and then when I actuallydid like the VIX, it was great.
(36:58):
I got to university in about ayear and a half and I asked
myself the same question why amI doing this?
Speaker 4 (37:04):
And I thought, oh my God, it's because of jenny
nancaro there was an answer Iwasn't expecting, so I'll try
and pin that into my memory now.
So you are a physicist becauseof jenny nancaro I hope she
listens to this so do I, I'mactually
Speaker 1 (37:20):
freaked out that quilliam knows everything about
it I know he's dedicated hiswhole life and career based on
when she was 11.
Speaker 4 (37:27):
greg's gonna try and find her in Munich now.
And Alex, what did you do atuni and why?
Why did you do it?
Speaker 1 (37:37):
So I did biology at Durham University and mine is a
bit more close to home.
So my mum is a mathematicianand she's very inspiring as well
.
My mum, she's one of the firstpeople to do maths and maths in
maths at university that shewent to and I always thought I
(37:59):
was going to be a mathematicianand I tried to follow in her
footsteps and did maths andfurther maths at A level and
then quickly realised I'm notactually that good at maths.
So I was like, oh, I'm gonnahave to pivot away from this.
I'm not sure I can.
I would.
I tried to.
I tried to keep up with her, um, but I soon realised she's
naturally gifted at maths andI'm not so.
Thankfully I had science as abackup and at that point I was.
(38:22):
You know, physics wasn't reallyfor me and it was always a
toss-up between biology andchemistry and I was tempted to
do biochemistry.
Durham doesn't really allow inyour first year, you know,
combined sciences.
They're quite strict in thatyou have to pick one.
So I ended up picking biologyand since then I just became
fascinated with the human body,what it's capable of achieving,
(38:46):
and then it just carried on fromthere, really found out about
the patent attorney professionthrough this bio enterprise
module that they do at Durham,which is really.
It's such a good module to takeif you're at Durham, if you're
any university.
It's a business and sciencemodule essentially and it's
really good.
You kind of have like a startupcompany.
(39:06):
I think I learned more aboutyou know the world and how it
works from that module than Idid my whole university degree
and it was really good andthat's how I ended up really in
the patent attorney profession.
Couldn't be a scientist, so didbiology instead, basically.
Speaker 4 (39:23):
Also, fab, that you discovered the patent attorney
profession whilst you were atuniversity rather than after
Greg.
You and I have probably hadthis conversation before.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Yeah, we have.
I know we have.
I can't believe you're doingthis to me.
Speaker 4 (39:39):
But I've not done this deliberately.
Come on now.
You see me, you see me, yes.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
So when I was finishing at school I thought
I'd like to go to university.
I really want to be an airlinepilot.
That was the first thing that Ireally, really wanted to do.
And when I finished school Iwas like I really want to be an
airline pilot and I knew that Ineeded to have science degree to
sort of bolster my chances ofbecoming an airline pilot.
(40:05):
And then, when I was lookingthrough prospectuses for
universities, I came acrossKeele University, because
they're one of the onlyuniversities in the country that
allow you to do two completelydifferent subjects joined
together, and it's a dual degree.
At that point I decided that Iwould like to try to be the
prime minister on the mean.
(40:25):
So I started doing astrophysicsand politics whilst I was at
university.
It just turns out that I wasreally, really bad at politics
like really bad at it, and inthe end I had to go and beg the
dean of the physics departmentto allow me to do astrophysics
and politics no, sorry,astrophysics and physics,
because apparently I was reallygood at physics but really,
(40:46):
really bad at politics.
So I dropped politics andcarried on with physics and
astrophysics and in my finalyear that was where I went down
to the British Airways cadetscheme in Bournemouth to do
their interview tests and thingslike that, of which I passed
all of them and everything wasall good to go, but then,
(41:08):
unfortunately, due to medicalcircumstances, they couldn't
allow me to continue in theprocess.
They did invite me to pay formyself, which would have been
150,000 pounds, of which ofwhich I didn't have.
That money, who does?
And then, as I came back fromBournemouth to heel, I saw a
notice on the notice boardsaying have you thought about
(41:30):
being a partner attorney?
And I had not, and at thatmoment I did.
And then the rest is historythat's astonishing.
Speaker 5 (41:38):
So I think I think darth sidious started doing
astrophysics and um politicswhen he kicked off as emperor of
the dark side of the universe.
Speaker 4 (41:47):
So you know, you're putting in good footsteps there
I'm I'm just fascinated thatgreg seems to think that you
need to be good at politics tobe in politics yeah, quickly
realized that's not true andalso wasn't very good at it
anyway, so maybe I could stillbe prime minister, who knows so
I know, I know about thequestion.
(42:07):
I've actually forgotten what thequestion is, lee, but bouncing
it back to you, I was asking youthree why you chose your
original kind of careertrajectories, in terms of why
you studied for the subjects youdid at university.
I didn't go, gwilym, so youcan't ask me that question, lee
why did you?
Speaker 5 (42:28):
I know the answer to everything because you told
you've done enough podcasts.
There's not a lot of backstory.
Why?
Why did you get a tortoise?
Speaker 4 (42:37):
why?
What was that?
Speaker 2 (42:41):
I don't know, why did you get a tortoise?
Speaker 5 (42:43):
I know I became a slumber.
I know why he went intoeducation.
I know I went to sleep becausehe did that in he went into
education.
I know why he went to sleepbecause he did that in the last
blooming podcast.
I don't know why he got atortoise.
I'm just trying to find to keepthe flow.
Speaker 4 (42:57):
I have a sneaky, suspicious feeling that we did
do this question really earlydoors in the podcast and you
might remember it when I startto tell you the story.
So I used to take number six,child number two, daughter evie,
to her sort of like preschoolthing junior, you know, before
you go to infant school, andstuff like that and I always
(43:18):
used to get talking to like theparents at the gate and I was
speaking to a sort of the parentwho was probably evie's best
friend at that time at school,so either she'd do four or five,
whatever it was was, and shejust said, oh, I re-homed
tortoises and I had always, Ialways wanted a tortoise.
Haven't had one when I was achild, I've had several when I
was a child and they all mettheir ends horribly through
disastrous accidents at home,like a wardrobe falling on top
(43:39):
of one oh my gosh, yeah, yeah,yeah.
And another one turning itselfupside down for far too long at
the garden before we found itand it's sort of like suffocated
itself.
I always felt guilty about myprevious ability to look after a
tortoise when I was a child andthis woman was talking about
this tortoise that she had thathad a bit of a wonky mouth, it
(44:01):
had a bit of a deformed shelland all of these kinds of things
, and I just felt, I just feltthat I was destined to adopt
this tortoise.
So, yeah, went round to ourhome that evening and adopted
him.
Bizarrely, uh, because we'vegot his.
We've got his birth certificate, his hatching certificate,
whatever, as you call itdiscovered when I went to pick
him up that he hatched on evie'sthe day he was born so yeah, so
(44:21):
they share a birthday.
they share an age, which means Ican always remember how old he
is.
So he's 17 at the moment.
He'll be 18 this year.
We need to do something tocelebrate his birthday and, for
those who don't know, his nameis Albert Treacle.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Is Evie happy that she essentially is, being that
she shares a birthday with atortoise?
How?
Speaker 4 (44:41):
does she feel?
Oh no, yeah, she loves atortoise.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
Oh good, the tortoise .
Yeah, oh god, I was justchecking like they bond over.
Speaker 4 (44:47):
We, we kind of we don't do this obviously, but it
just seems funny thing to say.
We stick a candle to the top ofhis shell out the garden so she
can go and blow it.
Um, blow the candle out completeroller coaster will answer me
thank you very much, although Ithink it was funny, it was
poignant, it was everything Ihave now thought of a way of not
losing him out the garden.
If I do stick a big candle tohis back, then one, he can't
(45:10):
roll over, he can't turn himselfover, and two, wherever he is
in the undergrowth we can seehim, because he'll have a big
candle going around.
Speaker 5 (45:16):
Get one of those.
Remember, in Starsky and Hutchyou used to stick the light, the
flashing light, on the car.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Yeah, it might be safer than a burning flame.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
Yeah, that might be how your next tortoise meets its
end, if it's not a wardrobe, orit falling on its back.
It'll be like you've burned italive.
Speaker 4 (45:33):
Oh god, yeah, okay, I'll forget that one then.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Okay, there was just one thing that I maybe want to
say.
It's a little quote from thisweek's SAG Awards, from Jane
Fonda, but I don't know ifyou've seen it.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
I've seen it, I love it.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
You say it, greg, so she said from from what awards,
greg?
Sorry from the SAG Awards.
Speaker 4 (45:54):
Then I don't know what they are a Screen Actors.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
Guild.
Awards okay, yeah.
So Jane Fonda was picking up aLifetime Achievement Award and
she said in her acceptancespeech empathy is not weak or
woke and, by the way, woke justmeans you give a damn about
other people and I'll tell youwhat greg, you've possibly given
us the little caption for theum, for the podcast, when we um,
when we publish it there we go.
Speaker 4 (46:19):
I can know that.
Oh, thank you both so much forcoming on it's been?
Speaker 2 (46:21):
no, not at all.
Thanks for having us.
Speaker 4 (46:23):
Yeah, the time's flown by, which always does,
when you're having just anengaging, friendly conversation
with people, and Gwilym so Ijust need to do my little close
at the end, which is, if you, ifyou listen to the podcast and
you've sort of found it as funand interesting as we have, then
(46:45):
by all means leave us a littlereview on wherever you pick your
podcast up from, and that meansthat more people will find us.
Um, thanks all.
Cheers, alex, cheers greg thankyou so much thanks, bye thanks.
Outro Music.
(47:15):
He's in a hard to rock music.
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