May 19, 2025 • 57 mins
From helping Scotch Whisky manufacturers by protecting the name in Brazil to working on the IP aspects of the UK's Government's reset in relations with the European Union, the work of our IP Attachés is varied and complex. Lee is joined by his deputy Neil for this deep dive into the important world of global IP diplomacy and trade. Attachés responsible for Southeast Asia, China, Latin America, North America, Middle East, North Africa and India all dropped by to join the conversation. Since the podcasgt was recorded the US Copyright Office has issued the third and final part of its AI and Copyright Consultation report. Learn more about this vitally important IP network here.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
We're here to support innovation, growth and the
economy, and the way we need todo that is to make sure we are
really aware of what's going onin all these ecosystems, so that
businesses can prepare and beaware and be that step ahead.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod
and you are listening to apodcast on intellectual property
brought to you by the CharteredInstitute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
Neil, great to see you.
Mate.
Here we are in the BritishLibrary, Cool place, isn't it?
Particularly warm day.
Why are we here.
Speaker 5 (00:38):
It's IP Attaché week and we're lucky enough to have
the IPO's Attaché team with ustoday.
Attaché week and we're luckyenough to have the IPO's Attaché
team with us today.
Speaker 4 (00:44):
We've been really looking forward to it, haven't
we?
I think it's the first timethat the UK IPO has been able to
bring all of the Attachéstogether, come to the UK and
meet with various stakeholderorganisations and partner
organisations, and we've beenreally looking forward to this,
they do an amazing job.
Speaker 5 (00:58):
All the main markets of the world, from Latin America
to Europe, to USA and Asia.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
So let's get them on, shall we?
So first up, neil, we've gotSarah Sarah Roberts-Favell.
Sarah, welcome to the podcast.
Great to have you on.
Been wanting to get you on thepodcast for a long time because
we've worked together in thepast on stuff like CPTPP and
those kinds of things and hereyou are.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
You've made it.
It's been a long time coming,but, yeah, I'm really glad to be
here.
Speaker 5 (01:27):
We need to explain what the CPTPP is quickly oh the
Comprehensive and ProgressiveAgreement for Trans-Pacific
Partnership.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
It rolls after the tongue when you've worked on it
for as long as we have over theyears.
Speaker 5 (01:37):
When you presented it to.
Speaker 6 (01:38):
Parliament honestly.
Speaker 4 (01:39):
But, yeah that's.
That's not what we're hereabout, though, is it so?
Sarah's got a role now in termsof promoting the UK IP attaché
network and overseeing that area, so tell us a wee bit about it.
What's it all about, sarah?
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Well, I've come to my dream job, to be honest, sort
of bringing trade and IP andinternational work all together.
So the International AttachéNetwork is where we work
overseas with IPO staff, butbased in UK embassies overseas
in key strategic markets, andthey've got a job which is
fourfold.
One is obviously to support thetrade agreements and work on
those as and when they come up.
One is to drive UK exports, soto help people understanding
(02:17):
when they go out to thesemarkets, what do they need to
know about their IP so theydon't misstep.
Because knowing before you gois is crucial.
That way you can prepare, youput your.
IP protection plan in place.
We also have a third role,which is to bring foreign direct
investment into the UK tosupport domestic growth as well
as domestic growth external.
(02:43):
We want to bring trade in the UKso that people come here and
think, oh, I'm looking at aheadquarters in the sort of
European area or the UK is astrong place to go.
So our job is to do that aswell, and the other part is
obviously to help change thepolitical and IP ecosystems
within the regions as well.
So we have a really broad role.
(03:03):
We're like IP diplomats is theway I sort of look at it in that
we sit there and we work withbusinesses, but we're there to
help local governments andindustry to share good practice
globally.
So it's it's about as excitingan ip role as you can get.
Really, I think it, althoughobviously patent attorneys are
also a very exciting role veryhighly valuable and we would
never want to diminish that no,but from a policy perspective I
(03:25):
think it's about as exciting asyou can get for ip what
jurisdictions?
Speaker 4 (03:28):
where are we active?
Speaker 1 (03:29):
well, we got hot off the press in the last six months
at a new post, so I'll startthere and work sort of around.
But we've got a new post whichis mina, which we love our
acronyms, don't we?
So middle east and north africa.
I thought that was a name.
Sorry, no, exactly, and this isa problem.
It's this love of acronyms oneverything, isn't it?
(03:55):
But our post is based in Dubai,which we think is a really great
jumping off hub for not justthe GCC but the North Africa
region and the wider region aswell, because it's such a
dynamic region changing sorapidly, it's really crucial for
us to understand the ipecosystems and frameworks as
they develop out there.
So that's literally a newstartup role.
We moved it from riad to dubai.
We've got a new attache, but inan older post, which is in
india, so working in the indiaand asia area.
(04:18):
We've then got singapore,obviously china and hong kong.
We've then got the us.
We've got latin america, so wespread ourselves bilaterally
globally.
Kong, we've then got the US.
We've got Latin America, so wespread ourselves bilaterally
globally.
But we've also then obviouslygot an attache in Europe that's
quite new, isn't it, sarah theEuropean?
it's, it's one of the newerposts, one of the newer posts,
yeah, and then we've got theGeneva post as well, which is
(04:40):
crucial with Lizzie and Vale,because you you can't think
about IP and you can't thinkabout global IP without looking
at the multilateral institutions.
So, they're crucial to lookingat those wider treaties.
I mean, I joined this job andeveryone oh, you know the wheels
of the multilateral space turnslowly and I've only been in the
role 18 months and I've had twodiplomatic conferences, so I
(05:03):
don't know whether that's a goodthing.
I'm hoping the listeners thinkit is, but it's been a you know,
big change there.
So we've got to have have goodrepresentation, strong
representation in Geneva as well.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
And what?
What would you say?
Your top challenges are what'son the radar for the attaché
network?
Speaker 1 (05:19):
I think that the the challenge and the problem we
always face is resource.
It's there, is, and making surewe're really targeting where we
want to be.
There's so much we could do andit's making sure we're doing
the right thing in the rightplace at the right time.
And that's the biggestchallenge we face, because we
have a variety of things we cando, whether it's through patents
, examiner exchanges, trademarkexaminer exchanges, judicial
(05:40):
exchanges, sharing good throughto moving away from the trading
space to political influencingand other things.
But there's so much we could doand it's just making sure that
we're being really real civilservice jargon here, but
intentional around what we'relooking at doing.
Are we achieving what we wantwhere we want and when we want?
And the world changes so fastand IP is really changing fast.
(06:05):
With some of the challengesthat are coming through with the
knock-ons from the dip cons, ai, ip finance and all of these
priorities it's making sure thatwe're really at the forefront
of where we want to beinternationally is always going
to be the challenge, but that'sthe fun of the job too and I
don't know if the part of thejob is this, but it seems to me
that there's always this ongoingdialogue about harmonization,
(06:26):
particularly in the patent world.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
Lots of conversations about harmonization.
So do the does the attachenetwork have a role to play at
that in terms of understandinghow the different ip ecosystems
operate and where there might besynergies between them?
Speaker 1 (06:37):
exactly that finding where the synergies are, keeping
their finger on the pulse as towhat legislation's going on in
the region.
So, so, particularly some ofour attaches they have a real
political focus to really keeptheir fingers on the pulse as to
what legislation might becoming through, what changes
might be happening in other IPoffices around the world.
So we can see where thesynergies are, but also where
there might begin to bedivergences for whatever reason,
(06:59):
so we can really make sure thatwe're able to keep stakeholders
informed.
We're here to support growthand the economy and the way we
need to do that is to make surewe are really aware of what's
going on in all these ecosystemsso that businesses can prepare
and be aware and be that stepahead so this feels incredibly
unfair.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
but we are on a bit of a whistle stop tour, aren't
we?
Because we are going to now gothrough all of the attachés and
talk to them about their, theirvarious perspectives from their
particular jurisdictions.
But let's finish with somehigh-level stuff from you.
Sarah, I don't know if you'regoing to move on from this job
or you're so passionate about itthat it's your job for life now
, but let's say, two or threeyears down the line you're
thinking now's the time to moveon.
What's success look like?
Speaker 1 (07:38):
I mean, success for me is making sure that we've
really got strong representationand continue to have strong
representation at WIPO and theWTO and all of the work in those
spaces, and that we've reallymanaged to really hit the
agendas there that we're lookingto have.
I mean, I always like to beable to look and know that the
enforcement landscape hasimproved, because IP rights are
(07:59):
really crucial.
But what I would like to see issuccess would be that we've got
fewer issues, fewer challengesaround infringement and around
enforcement.
So that's really what I'd liketo see, but it's.
It's a job I love.
It was one of those jobs itcomes across, it comes you watch
from afar and covet and andwhen it came up, the opportunity
was just I.
Whilst I love the tradeagreements and the work we did
(08:21):
on them, it's this role was, wasthe one that's always been
there and it's the one you wantto go for.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
So can I dangle a little carrot now to close, is
that okay can?
Speaker 1 (08:28):
I think of a carrot, is that okay?
Speaker 4 (08:29):
I guess.
So why not?
Because you are here really tokeep an eye on me, aren't you?
That's your job.
It's been lovely talking to you, but I know there's far more
that we could explore and I'mwondering if you would do us the
great honor of coming back and,yeah, and let's do sort of like
the full duration of a podcasttalking about you, the role, the
work and everything you do,because I know it's so exciting
I'd really love to definitelythank you thank you for your
(08:52):
time, sarah.
We're gonna we're gonna now talksome of the other attaches.
So, okay, that was great tohear from sarah, wasn't it nil?
Uh, always great to hear fromsarah.
Always great to hear from sarah, so't it, neil?
Always great to hear from Sarah, always great to hear from
Sarah.
So we've got our first twoattaches now to talk to.
We've got Kayleigh and we'vegot Angelica.
Kayleigh, do you want tointroduce yourself?
Speaker 10 (09:12):
Is that okay?
I would love to.
I'm Kayleigh Nauman.
I am in the North AmericanIntellectual Property Attaché,
based in Washington DC, and Icover the United States, Canada
and Mexico.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
Fair to say, not a bad gig at the moment, is it?
Speaker 10 (09:26):
I mean there's a lot going on, you know, Not a dull
moment right now.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
Yeah, we're going to hopefully pick through some of
that.
And, angelica, welcome to thepodcast.
Who are you?
Speaker 7 (09:35):
I'm Angelica, as I just said.
So, yes, I'm Angelica.
I'm Biotache, based in SaoPaulo, covering Latin America
and the Caribbean, but Brazil isour main country, the country
that we work with for the moment, and it's a pleasure to be here
.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
So can I kind of ask the personal, professional stuff
.
First off, how did both of youcome to be IP attachés?
Speaker 10 (09:57):
I actually am.
Most people who work in IPobviously have a legal
background.
I actually do not.
I am a social scientist bytraining, so I come of the way
of working in policy.
I previously worked for aDemocratic member of the House
of Representatives, actuallyduring the first Trump
administration, before this role.
So I was hired as the UK wasleaving the EU to help with our
(10:19):
bilateral trade negotiations andwas really hard because I know
the landscape in DC very well Iknow how to hang out with all
the folks there.
So built this really robustnetwork as soon as I got in, but
really very much from thatpolicy space.
I had worked in city and stategovernment before working in
federal.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
Cool.
And, angelica, what's yourbackstory?
Speaker 7 (10:40):
So I'm an IP lawyer and.
I've done my master's in Londonat Queen Mary University of
London.
Then I went back to Brazil.
I worked for some IP firms.
Then I found out that workingfor a diplomatic mission was a
possibility and I was like, wow,this is very exciting, so I
applied and I've joined UKTIlike 10 years ago, uk Trade and
(11:03):
Investment and then I've joinedthe IPO and yeah, here I am.
Speaker 10 (11:08):
We both did school in the UK.
I did my master's at Cambridge,so See, I'm not an IP.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
I don't have an IP background, I'm more of a social
scientist.
So yeah, share your pain.
Speaker 10 (11:17):
Yeah, I mean, I very much came from that like
international relationsviewpoint Angelica.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
Latin America, that's quite a big patch, isn't it?
Speaker 7 (11:25):
Well, yeah, it is Well.
Brazil is already the size ofthe whole continent, so Latin
America is even bigger.
Speaker 4 (11:30):
Where's your hotspots ?
Where are you focused on?
Speaker 7 (11:32):
Well, Brazil.
So we have two main agendasworking with the Brazilian
government enforcement of IP andprotection of IP.
So we have achieved a lot ofbig successes, I would say, in
the enforcement area, and a lotof big successes, I would say,
in the enforcement area.
And also we have just been ableto help Scotch Risk Association
to register Scotch as ageographical indication.
That is worth £25 million forthe next five years.
(11:55):
So it's a very broad agenda.
And of course, now we arehaving discussions about
artificial intelligence, as Ithink it's the case with every
country trying to understand how, yeah, where the balance of ip
lies.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
So it's a big, interesting agenda in the latin
america and, um, maybe an unfairquestion in terms of what more
for the ipo than for you, buthow well supported are you, how
well resourced are you in theroles that you do?
Speaker 10 (12:19):
I think we're pretty well resourced I mean it's.
We have small teams, I thinkmost attaches.
You have your sort of main deskofficer and then two support
officers that we feed into.
Angelica and I have the samedesk officer and we have a
really great relationship withthe team.
You know, I'm sure thateveryone in government was like
we could use six more people.
(12:39):
And like Angelica, now has ananalyst in Brazil.
I am so envious, it's veryexpensive to have an analyst in
DC.
So we're hanging on at themoment.
But if I could have someone justto watch all the hearings, for
me that are happening on theHill.
That would be great.
Speaker 7 (12:54):
And the thing is we can always use colleagues, like
colleagues from GBT, for anoffice to help us.
So I'm based in Brazil and Itake care of the whole Latin
American and Caribbean region.
So if I need something inArgentina, for example, I can
always use the help ofcolleagues in host.
Speaker 10 (13:11):
If it's like a new policy area development we can
call the policy folks at IPO andthey're always happy to help on
the phone.
So yeah, I think we're prettyrobust in resource for all
things considered so what's bigon the radar?
Speaker 4 (13:23):
you've mentioned ai.
We've talked a little bit abouttrade.
Is there anything else that youthink is coming up over the
over the horizon?
That might be the next biggiefor you.
Speaker 10 (13:29):
I mean ai is taking up a lot of my bandwidth um, you
know the the us has been really, really invested in what an ai
governance policy looks like.
Um, you know trump's executiveorder day one revoked a number
of Biden's executive orders andthat included the AI executive
order.
We're waiting to see if thatincludes rehashing or reviewing
(13:53):
the US Patent and TrademarkOffice's AI guidance that
they've issued, because it wasissued under that executive
order.
Obviously we work with thatoffice, with the US Patent and
Trademark Office, in depth atthe working level on these
issues.
Already the Copyright Office inthe US had issued, or has
wrapped up, a consultation on AIand copyright, much like we
(14:14):
recently did.
I can't comment on ours, butthe US Copyright Office split
their report into three.
The third chunk of that reportis anticipated this year and I
think that gives us a reallygood idea direction to travel in
the us and also opens up moreopportunities for us to have
those more robust working levelconversations than we have, and
then I'm sure time will tellwhat else is going to come up
(14:36):
here you know like three yearsago I spoke on a couple
conference panels about themetaverse, so there will be
something new here soon.
I'm going the metaverse, yeah sofor us.
Speaker 7 (14:47):
Well, the enforcement agenda is a priority for um,
for the ipo in brazil and therest of latin america, but we
also have call 30 this year inbrazil in belen, the amazon
region, and we have a veryexciting program together with
the foreign Office which isbuilding capacity with local
communities in the Amazon regionso they learn how to protect
(15:11):
trademarks, and this is insideBrazil's intellectual property
strategy.
So we've partnered with MFA,Itamaraty, the Brazilian Foreign
Office and also the BrazilianPatent Office, the Ministry of
Industry and Commerce in Brazil.
So we are really lookingforward to continue the project
and maybe luckily deliversomething in time for COP.
Speaker 4 (15:35):
Perfect.
I'm not suggesting for onemoment that you're just about to
disappear over the horizon, butlet's take you two or three
years into the future, wheremaybe you're thinking the time
might be right to look tosomething else.
For each of you, what's legacy?
What would you say?
Yay, I did that.
Speaker 7 (15:48):
Well, I think in my case I'm really proud of is this
partnerships we have withBrazilian enforcers, with police
, the Ministry of Justice andthe public attorney's office.
So the techniques they'velearned from us and from PIPCO,
the techniques they've learnedfrom us and from PIPCO, mainly
to fight IP crimes.
(16:09):
They use to fight other sortsof crimes, so pedophilia and
bank fraud and prevent attacksto schools.
So it's amazing to see the sizeand the dimension of the impact
of the work we do yeah, sothat's exporting UK IP expertise
, exactly, and it's alsofighting on behalf of IP,
(16:30):
fighting IP crimes, but alsofighting other sorts of horrible
crimes as well.
So it's and to see those peoplethere.
Also, you've mentioned passion.
Those people are reallypassionate about what they do.
They really have a sense ofjustice and want to make the
world a better place.
So it's great to be in themiddle of that and to enable
this to happen.
(16:50):
That's very cool.
Speaker 10 (16:51):
I'm trying to think of like one shining moment,
because there's a lot of what Ido.
When you're successful inpolicy, you often know that
you're successful because no onecan point out that you did
something.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
Fair point.
Speaker 10 (17:02):
So it can be a little hard for me to identify
something.
Point out that you didsomething Fair point.
So it can be a little hard forme to identify something, but
there's been some opportunitiesto engage in ways that are very
specific to where I am and beingin DC.
And one thing is that at theend of 2023, former registrar of
copyrights who is not themotion picture association Karen
Temple, joined a panel in frontof the house subcommittee.
It's got a very long name, butit includes intellectual
(17:24):
property.
House subcommittee.
It's got a very long name, butit includes intellectual
property.
It's like it's the courts, theinternet, now artificial
intelligence is part of the nameand intellectual property, but
I don't think in that order, butthat is to say she spoke in
front of the house subcommitteeon ip about website blocking and
the harm of piracy fromwebsites in third countries.
(17:44):
You know about how thosewebsites are often linked to all
sorts of other illicitactivities it's very often
criminal organizations etc.
And just talking about the needfor a similar framework in the
US, because there's not awebsite blocking framework in
the US.
I have very good relationshipswith the folks who work on the
subcommittee and, following thehearing, immediately sent them
an email and said hey, we have avery robust regime here.
(18:05):
We would love to share ourexpertise and talk to you about
it, and so we've had a number ofworking level conversations.
We had Representative DarylIssa from California, who's the
lead Republican on thesubcommittee, was out here with
Ben Kline, a Democrat from Iforget which state, and a couple
of their staff.
Last summer we talked to themin depth about our regime.
(18:26):
I've participated in aroundtable hosted by
Representative Issa on thistopic and it's hard to say if it
will really come to fruition.
He's definitely going to writea bill.
He's definitely going tointroduce a bill.
It's going to be a lot of workto get other members of Congress
on board, but to be able to bepart of that process in such a
(18:47):
dynamic way no longer being astaffer on the Hill because I
used to write bills on the Hill,but in a sort of different way
is certainly very cool andsomething that has been very
exciting, and we similarly forthe CASE Act, which created the
Copyright Small Claims Board andthe Copyright Office in the US
Before that bill passed as anamendment to appropriations
(19:07):
legislation.
Hakeem Jeffries, who's now theDemocratic leader in the House,
introduced that bill and wespoke to his office several
times and connected them withjudges and were able to give
them feedback on what you knowour core system here looks like,
and that's been very cool to beable to participate in that.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
Oh, thank you both so much for sharing your time.
Thank you very much so it'sreally good, wasn't it, to hear
from um, from kaylee andangelica.
Speaker 5 (19:38):
Range of skills these people have is is mind-boggling
.
Speaker 4 (19:41):
Such exciting area to work as well as it seems, and
the pat and the passioncertainly seems to be there.
So we've got Samuel and Desmondwith us now.
Welcome to the podcast.
Hi guys, thanks for having usReally good to have you here.
Sorry, we're rushing youthrough at the moment Going
around the world in half an hour.
Speaker 5 (19:54):
Yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 11 (19:56):
So can you introduce yourself?
Okay, so I'm Samuel Stone, soI'm our attache that is based
out in China.
So I'm based in Beijing.
I actually have a small teamout there.
So IPO has got myself, and thenwe've got two more colleagues
that work with me in Beijing andwe've also got someone based in
Shanghai.
We've got someone in Shanghaibecause that's where a lot of
(20:18):
the UK companies have theirheadquarters.
So in that way it's good forthe kind of business
relationship side.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
Samuel, just very briefly what brought you into
the Attaché network?
Speaker 11 (20:29):
Yes, I've been working on China-related policy
for a while, so actually I'vebeen in the civil service for
quite a while and the rolebefore this one I was in DBT,
dit at the time, doing Chinatrade policy.
So that was much broader.
It kind of wrapped up IP aswell as a narrow part of it, but
it was more business,environment issues, market
(20:51):
access issues and trade dialogue.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
Fab.
Thank you.
So, Desmond, same question foryou how did you get to where you
are?
Speaker 8 (20:59):
Certainly.
Thank you very much.
So I'm Desmond, I'm the attachéfor Southeast Asia, I'm based
in Singapore and I'll cover IPfor the whole region.
So what we do is that we'llcover the government, government
relationships as well as thegovernment to business support.
So all our UK business friendsthat wants to come to the region
are already in the region.
We'll have them on that.
We also support and do IPdevelopment work under FCDO.
(21:20):
We also have a very small teamin the region.
I think I have two colleaguesin Indonesia, one colleague
colleague in Singapore, one inHanoi and we're hiring one more
in Malaysia as well.
Okay, yep.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
So, yeah, it's a little bit of a team around you
then, so you're not just workingon your own.
Speaker 8 (21:32):
True, yes, but I think we cover about 10 to 11
countries which is pretty a lotas well.
So that's what our regionaltravel coverage.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
So what's big on each of your radars, sam?
Speaker 11 (21:47):
Let's start with you .
What's number one priority inChina?
Number one priority in China.
So I would say that the systemin China, the IP system, has
been developing pretty rapidlyover the years.
So it's changing quite quicklyand most of that has been
(22:07):
positive change.
So definitely we've seen thekind of you know in terms of
registering rights andprotecting rights.
Things have got better across anumber of areas, but then there
are still that's not to saythere's still some systemic
challenges that remain for UKrights owners.
So I would say, for example,counterfeiting yeah, we do
estimate that between about 70to 80 percent of the world's
counterfeits are originatingfrom china.
(22:29):
I mean the, the scale of chinaand the manufacturing capacity
there is obviously yeah, so sothat's, that's a real issue.
Other issues include fightingdigital piracy.
Bad faith trademarks issomething that comes up a lot to
me and my team yeah so that'swhere someone you know, an actor
, is preemptively registering a,a trademark, and then, with
(22:51):
sort of the malicious intentthat they want to squat the
trademark and maybe you know,extort it back when that brand
owner is coming into the marketso that's always been a steadily
been quite a big issue for us,and I would just say that it's
moving now more my priority, Isuppose towards enforcement as
well, now that that kind oflegal framework is actually, you
(23:12):
know, has been improving overyears, the actually following up
on the, the enforcement of IPand China being such a big place
, the kind of the difference inenforcement outcomes between
places that's sort of comingbecoming more of a priority.
Speaker 5 (23:26):
And is that helping uk business to enforce their
rights in china or using ukinfluence to improve enforcement
across the country moregenerally?
Speaker 11 (23:36):
yeah.
So I would say it's a mixbecause it's very similar to
desmond.
We kind of have that governmentto government role and then the
business support side.
I would usually divide it inthose two and so if it's the
business support, then it mightbe that we are trying to provide
what support we can in specificcases.
That might just be providinginformation or talking through
(23:58):
some options when a company hasan enforcement issue or another
issue, or maybe we can help todo some government facilitation
or facilitation betweenplatforms and rights owners.
But it's also on the governmentto government side.
So that's where we do a lot ofsharing of best practice.
So you know the UK's it has agood reputation for you know our
(24:23):
IP system and capabilities inmany areas, and so we will do
that sort of best practicesharing to try and help bring up
standards across the board.
Speaker 4 (24:36):
And Desmond, you're working across multiple
jurisdictions.
How does that play out for you?
What would be your prioritiesin that?
Speaker 8 (24:42):
Yeah, so I think Southeastia is a very exciting
region because it has about 680million people.
30 percent are in the middleincome.
It's projected 50 percent to bemiddle income by about 2030.
And like what?
And if southeast asia is aneconomy, it is the fifth largest
.
Well, so, and as what sam hasmentioned, a lot of the
counterfeits actually came fromfrom china, but it actually
(25:02):
flows through southeast asia aswell, so we are part of the node
and therefore, for us, we thinkenforcement is one of our top
priorities and because how wethink about it is that you have
IP protection.
Without enforcement, it's likebuying a safe and leaving the
door open.
So we really think enforcementgives meaning to IP protection
in the region especially, and wewant to help our UK businesses
whenever they come in tonavigate the region the 10
(25:24):
countries, so you have tonavigate 10 sets of enforcement
regimes right, that can bereally complicated.
So we want to do the help themon that and not just that.
Increasingly, we see e-commerceis really important because
most consumers now buy productsonline.
That's why, in Southeast Asia,we also focus on enforcement and
in the e-commerce space.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
So our conversation with Kayleigh I mean it's a
shame, isn't it, because youdon't get to hear the
conversations that went beforebut the conversation with
Kayleigh, and perhaps also to adegree with Angelica, was about
trade and the role of theattache network in fostering
those trade relationships.
Do you get involved in thoseconversations?
Speaker 8 (26:01):
Yes, we do in some part, because part of our work
is also on policy as well.
But of course we focus a lot onbusiness support and government
relationships.
For example, in Southeast Asiathere's an RSAT and then there's
also the CPTPP, which you canjust join, and amongst all these
we think it's a veryinteresting way of looking at IP
, because RSAT looks intoharmonizing all the IP regimes
in Southeast Asia.
Cptpp ups the level.
(26:23):
It improves IP enforcement, ipprotection provisions.
So we see this interplayactually provides a lot of
opportunities for our UKbusinesses.
Rsat makes the IP system morecommon so that means when
businesses come out you don'thave to navigate so many IP
protection regimes.
Cptpp makes enforcement easierin a way because it ups the
(26:44):
quality of IP protection.
So when UK businesses come upthey can focus a lot more about
IP commercialization and takingthe best of your IP assets.
Of course I'm making it soundvery simple here.
In front of the region therewill still be counterfeits,
there will still be piracy, andthat's where here we are as the
IP Attaché Network to supportall UK businesses on all their
enforcement priorities and needs.
Speaker 5 (27:04):
UK businesses on all their enforcement priorities and
needs.
So the hope with CPTPP wasn'tit was that other partners to
the CPTPP would bring theirenforcement quality and levels
up to the UK.
Yes, so in a way it's likeleveling up together and that's
what we're seeing.
Speaker 8 (27:17):
I think it's going to be a journey because currently,
right now in Southeast Asia,there are 11 countries, if you
include Timor-Leste, and I thinkfour are in CPTPP already
Singapore, vietnam, brunei andMalaysia.
Singapore, I think, is a uniquecountry where the IP regime is
very strong, the rule of law isvery strong and IP enforcement
is also very strong, and I thinkthat CPTPP provides opportunity
(27:40):
for all the other countries tolevel up together and, with UK
coming in and as UK is also adialogue partner to ASEAN, and
this brings a lot of opportunityfor us to work together for
shared prosperity and, I think,as long as when businesses, be
it UK and ASEAN, have a commonvested interest, that makes
trade a lot easier and we areall aligned in our goals
Fantastic.
Speaker 4 (28:01):
Similar in China, Samuel, in terms of the trade
relationship.
Speaker 11 (28:03):
In terms of the trade relationship, In terms of
the trade relationship, ourinvolvement, I would say that so
we do work very closely withour colleagues from the
Department for Business andTrade.
Yeah, so we've got a strongnetwork in China and they have
the you know, they have theremit to help support exports
from the UK to other countries,including China, and also for
(28:25):
attracting that inwardinvestment.
Now, while I don't exactly havethat same goal as they do,
actually, what you find reallyis that we work very close
together because these exportersas the government is trying to
give support to help UKexporters grow and reach markets
abroad, well, of course, theyneed to have that IP knowledge
(28:48):
and understanding along the way.
So we will sort of feed intothat process to make sure that
exporters have got that IPknowledge before they go.
I would say we also kind oftouch on it in a way, because,
working on these IP issuestogether with China and
exchanging best practice andhelping to support UK rights
(29:08):
owners in China, you touch onissues of the business
environment in China and alsoperhaps some of the IP issues
could be seen as market accessissues.
So in a way, you're helping totry and create a kind of
conducive business environment,remove any trade barriers that
(29:30):
might still exist, so that youcan facilitate more trade.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Yeah, it makes sense.
Listeners don't know, but we'regetting wave jets through the
window to move on.
Your time is up, so we just geta little wave, but you're not
going to get away without thequestion that I've asked your
colleagues little wave, um.
But you're not going to getaway without the question that
I've asked your colleagues, andthat's you're not going to run
away from this job.
You're clearly passionate aboutit, but at some point in the
future you might move on.
When you move on, what?
What does success look like?
Speaker 11 (29:55):
what will you look back and say, yeah, I did that
um, success look like, I mean,it's the, it's the helping
businesses and then seeing thesecases go through and be
successful is a really good partof the job.
Yeah, building therelationships as well.
So we've both talked about thatkind of priority and
(30:18):
enforcement and we've actuallybeen trying to build our
relationships with some of theenforcement agencies in China,
actually been trying to buildour relationships with some of
the enforcement agencies inChina.
So being able to look back andactually say you know that's
taken a step forward during ourtime there, you know, to best
support businesses, I think Iwould take that, yeah, it feels
good, doesn't it?
Speaker 8 (30:34):
Yeah, I think for me, I guess it's a journey, I think
it's not.
It's a destination, not a busstop.
Looking back, it'll be reallygood to see how UK is a trusted
partner to Southeast Asia,especially in air enforcement,
because for us, UK we're really,really strong in IP enforcement
and, look, I just hope that asthis thing goes on, the
relationship just gets betterand better and better, stronger
(30:55):
and stronger and stronger.
We'll be really happy to hearthat.
I think right now, uk we have athree-year lead on e-commerce
enforcement and I'm sure that inthe future, people will build
on this and make it even better.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
Thank you both so much for sharing your time with
us.
Thank you so much for thisopportunity.
Thanks for having us.
It's been quite good afternoon,hasn't it?
We've been hearing all thesegreat stories about the IP
Attaché Network, and now we getto do some more.
So we've got Lizzie and Aidanwith us.
It'd be IP Attaché Network, andnow we get to do some more.
So we've got Lizzie and Aidanwith us.
(31:26):
Be great if you could introduceyourselves, because obviously
you know more about you than wedo, so Lizzie should we start
with you.
Speaker 12 (31:30):
Who are you Sure?
Thank you, so I'm Lizzie Wilson.
I'm the IP Attaché that's basedin Geneva.
I work with the multilateralinstitutions and all the UN
organisations out there.
So wherever IP comes up, I tryto be try to be there.
Predominantly that's with theworld intellectual property
organization, ypo, um, and alsowith the wto, world trade
organization, but also done abit of uh stuff with the who as
(31:53):
well, um.
But yeah, as I say, wherever ipstrikes up in in the un
institutions, I try and get mynose in there and and.
Speaker 4 (32:02):
What brought you into this world?
What attracted you?
Speaker 12 (32:06):
So I have been a civil servant for quite a few
years and I did some workpreviously at the IPO, where I
was the desk officer that wasworking with the ASEAN region,
and so I had a little bit ofknowledge there about the IP
world and the IPO, and when thisrole came up in Geneva I
applied for it and here I am.
Speaker 6 (32:28):
So it's great to have you and Aidan, how about you?
Well, thanks for having me.
I'm Aidan Sampson.
I'm the IPO's Europe attaché.
I'm based in Brussels and Icover both the EU as well as the
wider Europe region, ourbilateral relations with all
European countries.
I think we stretch as far as torussia and turkey.
Yeah, but I'd say probably.
I've been giving differentfigures to all different
(32:49):
stakeholders.
I've been meeting sometimes Isay 75 percent eu, someone's 80
percent eu.
Speaker 4 (32:53):
I'm going to say to you, 80 of my job is eu there
was a test at the end of theweek, so yeah, so, so yeah, my
main focus is the eu, but yeah,we cover the whole of Europe as
well, fab.
Speaker 6 (33:04):
And how about you?
What?
Brought you into this world.
So well, ip is fairly new to me.
I started this job two and ahalf years ago.
My background is EU andEuropean affairs international
relations, so I think I studieda little bit of IP law in
university but it was neverreally something that occurred
to me to go into and kind ofstumbled across this job and I
(33:25):
really enjoy it.
Yeah, it's been quite awhirlwind.
Speaker 12 (33:29):
There's a lot to learn, it's really big, but yeah
it's a diverse job, isn't it?
Diverse role, and there'salways new things to pick up,
and you get to learn, and Ithink all of us are incredibly
grateful to our IPO colleagues,who have such incredible
knowledge and skills that theyshare with us as the attaches
that we then take out to themarkets and that must be a great
(33:51):
thing about the way the team'sgrown over the years is you've
got that shared experience andlearning and I think also what
we and I really feel like it'scoming out this week when we're
all together here in london, isthat there's lots of
similarities between our markets, but also lots of differences.
And we can draw out themes fromall of us and what we all see in
(34:13):
our different markets and bringthose together and share some
of that knowledge and learningwhich is invaluable.
Speaker 4 (34:19):
Can I ask either a geeky pattern question is that
okay?
I mean, it's not about goodluck.
Speaker 6 (34:23):
Yeah, sorry, I'm not an expert.
Speaker 4 (34:25):
I apologize in advance, okay, so a geeky
question from a patentperspective, let me say it that
way instead so, but, but alsosort of more broadly.
So we've got the two offices Iguess in in europe, that's the
epo, yeah uh, european patentconvention, obviously larger
than the eu.
38-ish grows over time, doesn'tit?
(34:46):
Member states.
And then you've got the EU IPOand its footprint as an EU organ
, and then you've got now for us, the new Unified Patent Court.
How do you draw all of thosevarious strands together, or do
you?
Speaker 6 (35:00):
not need to.
Well, unfortunately, there area lot more strands than that
that I have to deal with oh, goon, tell, do.
Oh god, I mean, we work alsowith the commission, the
parliament of course and all thevarious um member state
governments.
Yeah, the epo is obviously oneof our most um important
stakeholders.
We are a member of uh, of ofthe epo um, so and we are
(35:21):
building our relationship withthe uh, with the, with the
european union.
We've been resetting ourrelationship and we try to work
closely with the European Union.
We've been resetting ourrelationship and we try to work
closely with the EU.
They're very different organs.
So the EU IPO currently doesnot do anything on patents.
It is focused on trademarks anddesigns.
Speaker 4 (35:40):
It got dangerously close recently with SPC.
Speaker 6 (35:44):
Yeah, so there is an eu proposal on uh creating a
competent center within the eu.
I think would look at um sepsin particular as well.
Yeah, but uh, you know tbc,where all that lands.
But in any case, you know theseare all our important
stakeholders.
You know europe's our closestpartners and yeah, we try to
(36:04):
cooperate with them all.
Speaker 4 (36:06):
Yeah, it's quite a juggling act, isn't it?
Yeah, yours, lizzie.
Very different gig waipo is umalways seems to me to be quite a
difficult conundrum tounderstand and in terms of its
um conferences and and how itgets to policy forming and
decision making.
Can you cast some light on onthat?
Speaker 12 (36:26):
I can try.
It's a really interesting space.
So WIPO, as the UN's technicalagency looking after IP, it's
got quite a number of roles.
Really, I think it's a policyspace for shaping global IP
rules and standards.
Space for shaping global IPrules and standards.
It's a convener for people tocome together, for member states
(36:56):
to come together, but alsobroader stakeholders too.
It also provides capacitybuilding, technical assistance
to member states, which I thinkis particularly valuable for
developing countries, for theglobal south.
So it has quite a number ofroles and it is a.
It can be difficult becausethere are 193 member states yes
um, and they will come at thisfrom slightly different
perspectives, slightly differentpriorities.
(37:18):
You have countries, like the uk, who have very developed and
deep historical IP structuresand systems, and you have
countries which don't have suchdeveloped IP systems.
So it's a balancing act, it isquite a tough balancing act, but
(37:38):
then you also get lots ofdifferent experiences and
something that I think is reallyvaluable that WIPO can do is
bring so many different memberstates together in one space and
you do see a lot of experiencesharing and best practice
sharing.
Actually, that exchange ofknowledge is really really
important and particularly, Ithink the UK and and what the UK
(38:03):
has achieved and done throughthe IPO is really so highly
regarded by a lot of developingcountries and that's fantastic
to see.
Speaker 4 (38:14):
Your job seems, I would say, very different, but
there's a distinction, isn'tthere?
In terms of the fact thatyou're not looking at a
geographical jurisdiction,you're looking more at
international policy.
Is that fair?
Speaker 12 (38:25):
Yeah, that's absolutely right.
I don't see so much of the ordon't do so much of the business
support side of things.
It's very much the multilateralspace.
Looking at some of theinternational treaties, so um
you may know the the two recentwipo uh treaties one one on
(38:47):
genetic resources, one on designlaw.
So that's quite a differentrole negotiating those to
providing that business support.
But hopefully those treatiesare there now to help and
support the business community.
Speaker 4 (39:03):
Yeah, yes, absolutely of course.
And, aidanidan, do you getyourself involved in trade much?
Is that something that you findyourself?
Speaker 6 (39:10):
well, we have the trade and cooperation agreement
with the European Union, whichI'd say it's quite a big part of
my role is to make sure we areimplementing that fully and sort
of working out any post-Brexitissues that we may have.
So on that sense, yes, yes ontrade, and of course we work
with other partners both inEurope and around the world in
(39:31):
trying to get new free tradeagreements as well.
So a couple of questions for me.
Speaker 4 (39:35):
Neil may have something else he wants to ask,
but I'll do my couple of closes,if that's okay.
First of all, each of youbiggest thing on your radar at
the moment what's coming overthe horizon that you're um, that
keeps you awake at night?
Speaker 12 (39:45):
so I think for me in geneva in the near future,
we've got the ypo generalassembly coming up, which is its
annual flagship event really,where you get all of the
different bodies and assemblies.
They meet, all the memberstates come together.
We'll have our ceo, adamwilliams, coming out for that
and he gets to meet heads ofoffices from all the other
(40:07):
member states.
So that's quite a big flagshipevent and we'll be setting the
programme budget for the nextbiennium for WIPO, so that's
really important as a memberstate to make sure that we see
that correctly implemented.
So I think that will be afairly big thing coming up.
And then really I think,considering the current
(40:29):
geopolitical dynamics that we'reseeing, it's about the UK being
a constructive partner for themultilateral system and really
making sure that we can help itkeep going and keep working,
particularly for the businesses,for theEs, for the, for that
community and for our IPstakeholders.
I think, making sure that it'sfit for purpose and works, and
(40:52):
that's that's really critical.
Speaker 4 (40:53):
That's probably enough to have on your plate at
the moment, isn't it?
Yeah?
Yeah just a small job.
There's not much happening inEurope at the moment.
Speaker 6 (40:59):
Aidan, one of the biggest things that is happening
right now for us is is thereset our UK-EU relationship.
Speaker 4 (41:07):
Yeah, of course.
Speaker 6 (41:08):
We have a summit coming up soon between our Prime
Minister and the President ofthe European Commission, and we
are aiming to further developour relationship and to find new
means for British businesses towork in Europe and generally to
improve prosperity for UKbusiness.
And the research coverseverything, and so we are
(41:33):
hopeful that we'll also beboosting our IP relationship
with the EU and Europe as awhole.
That sounds really positive.
Speaker 4 (41:40):
I think so.
Final question from me what'syour individual legacies?
What will you look back and say, yeah, I did, have you done.
You might not have got thereyet, but what might you want
your legacy to be?
Yeah, that's a tough one, isn'tit?
That's a good question.
Speaker 6 (41:55):
it sounds like it might be a job offer as well.
I'm not.
I'm not sure.
Um, you know about individualthings, but I would say that
we've we've done quite a fewgood campaigns in Europe, which
I'm really proud of, I think,and it's been, I mean, it's been
great working with the IPO onthis.
I work closely with the IPOEurope team, who are all great
(42:17):
and they sort of they give methe freedom to you know, devise,
you know and implement my owncampaigns on various issues, and
I think it's yeah.
If I look back on this joblater on in life, I will say I
did that, I did this and yeah,I'd be quite pleased with that
Cool.
Speaker 12 (42:34):
Yeah, and I think I will be really pleased.
I am really pleased to be ableto look back even now and say I
have recently been part of twonew multilateral treaties at
WIPO.
I've also been involved in thenegotiations for the WHO
pandemic accord.
So that's three multilateralagreements within a year, which
(42:58):
for the multilateral system, isactually quite impressive.
Speaker 6 (43:02):
Yeah, it sounds it.
Speaker 12 (43:05):
It's been some hard raids and not all the outcomes
are perfect, but I think it's athat's a pretty good place to be
oh, thank you both so much forsharing your time with us and,
um yeah, enjoy the rest ofattache week it's thank you very
much.
It's a really fun program.
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 4 (43:21):
Thank you so now we're nearly nearly at the end,
but we've saved the best, orlast, I think, because we we get
to do that little bit ofconversation in between
recordings and this.
This feels like it's gonna bequite a bubbly one, do you think
?
These are our newest attachesyeah, so what we'd like you to
(43:42):
do is just to introduceyourselves.
So, zaneh, should we start withyou?
So tell us who you are and whatyou do.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
I'm an IP lawyer, ip slash business.
I have both backgrounds, comingfrom corporate world, oil
sector, oil and gas sector inIran.
Okay, originally coming from theregion that I belong to and
working with differentinstitutions, companies,
different sectors in Iran, andeventually left the country
because of the sanctions.
(44:10):
I always wanted to have aninternational career, which
wasn't possible due to thecountry situation, and then I
was working in Dubai, turkey.
I did a few projects inSoutheast Asia and then I was
like, okay, I cannot live on thesuitcase anymore, I have to
move to Switzerland and I reallywanted to have an opportunity
(44:31):
in international domain, in IP.
So I started studying,continuing my studies in
Switzerland and then eventuallyI started working with Swiss IP
Institute, wipo.
Different sectors, differentdivisions different projects in
Southeast Asia, in Africa,working with regional bureaus,
with technical divisions, withWIPO Academy, a lot.
(44:52):
So I was on the policy side abit of advice to businesses,
coaching businesses and alsotraining and awareness raising.
And also on the side I wasworking with other UN agencies
like International Trade Centerand the IP part of the National
Export Strategy for Iran andbranding of the agricultural
(45:13):
products.
And then I did another projectfor EUIPO it was during pandemic
on IP and gender and howintellectual property system can
contribute to women businesscompetitiveness, again in
Southeast Asia.
And then, yeah, and then Icontinued again with WIPO
(45:34):
different divisions.
I did also a lot of gender workon the side for UN women and
then eventually I was superlucky and happy to find a
position with IPO because I wasin contact with the Geneva IP
attaches.
So it led me to the region thatI'm originally coming from.
So now I'm based in Dubai.
(45:54):
It's six months I'm in the postand I'm enjoying each and every
minute.
Speaker 4 (45:59):
It sounds like it.
It is amazing.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
Gorgeous role, a lot of opportunities, fantastic.
Speaker 4 (46:06):
And Divya, what's your story?
Speaker 9 (46:07):
So my tryst with intellectual property actually
began when I think I was inmiddle school and I happened to
come across Michael Jackson'svideo and I saw the anti-gravity
boots.
I was intrigued.
Speaker 4 (46:20):
The patented anti-gravity boots.
Speaker 9 (46:22):
Yes, I was intrigued and then, you know, at that time
internet was pretty slow, butit was still pretty useful.
So I happened to come across.
While I didn't understand atthat time what patent really was
, but I think it got the wheelsmoving and I started to focus on
it a lot and then I realizedhow we are surrounded by IP on
(46:42):
in everyday life especially, Imean you you wake up, you put
the toothpaste on yourtoothbrush, you see the
trademark there, right there onthe toothpaste.
So, similarly, you know, as youwalk around, you open the
refrigerator, the coke, can yousee the logo again, the design,
the trade secret, the recipe,everything.
So I think that's how my twistwith intellectual property
started and I've always beenquite the opinionated lady.
(47:08):
So my parents suggested thatyou know you should put that to
good use why not become a lawyer?
So I ended up pursuing law andduring that time I was waiting
to hear back from the legalservice authority at Delhi for
an internship in my first year.
But I was put on wait list andwas supposed to start the next
(47:28):
month.
But then I had this one monthand it was waste.
And you know, as students you'resupposed to have something on
your CV and there's a lot ofpeer pressure yeah so my dad
spoke to a couple of people inhis network and I ended up
interning at a at an IP law firmin my first year and that's
where I fell in love.
So that's how my relationshipwith IP started and I knew right
(47:51):
then and there that IP is whatI wanted to do later on as well.
But I had a lot of advicestreaming in from everybody else
telling me that maybe youshould dibble, dabble into other
fields before you decidesomething, because you're still
too quite early and we had noteven studied that subject
subject.
It's a five-year course, so.
But the heart what's wants whatit wants, right.
(48:13):
So I knew ip is what I wantedto do.
Then I did a master's in ip.
Eventually I started working foran ip law firm.
Then I worked for the indiangovernment for four years under
their national ipr policy scheme, did a lot of good work, like
inculcating IP into the schoolchildren's curriculum,
introducing them to IP at a verynascent stage.
(48:33):
That was very interesting work.
I was part of that.
And then I wanted to tryin-house.
So I worked for an Australianmedia house, helped them sort
out their IP portfolio for theirstock market advisory and tech
business.
And then, uh, before this role,I I was working for, and uh for,
a wind technology company astheir ip council.
(48:55):
So quite the diverse profile.
I've had the government, I'vehad the private, I've had the
corporate.
Speaker 4 (48:59):
So you also now have the accolade of being the first
person to ever squeeze michaeljackson into one of our podcasts
.
So well done, thank you sosimilar questions.
So we've asked your colleaguesrecognizing you're relatively
new to role what's big on eachof your radars at the moment?
What's what's your big priorityin the areas that you work?
Speaker 2 (49:16):
from my side, of course, because I'm based in
Dubai, we are having a greatrelationship with uh UAS
stakeholderEE governments,mainly working with the IP
sector of Ministry of Economy.
So we're developing ourcollaboration on different IP
aspects on the protection sideand the building, the
infrastructure as well asenforcement, and on the other
(49:40):
side, we also have MOU andofficial collaboration with
Saudi Intellectual PropertyAuthority.
So we work closely on differentIP issues, again based on the
Saudi government priorities aswell as UK priorities, and also,
on the other side, workingclosely with the businesses and
also expanding our relationshipwith the businesses in the
(50:01):
region so that we can providebetter protection to UK
businesses in the region.
So for now we are focusing UAEand Saudi, but there are a lot
of issues coming up.
Qatar is in the radar.
Egypt is there.
We had a very recent query inIraq which we didn't even come
like.
It's coming through.
(50:22):
So yeah, so basically for now,uae and Saudi, but we are
eventually expanding to theregion on the policy side,
working with the government andalso on the business side,
working closely with thebusinesses, and we have also a
very good relationship with thelegal community.
They're really helping andsupporting us behind the scene
for better engagement with theauthorities and relevant
(50:45):
stakeholders.
So, yeah, for that, like it'sbeen six months I've been in the
post, so I think by now we havedone a lot of great things and
for sure we'll add morecountries and more, you know,
like our projects.
Speaker 4 (50:58):
So yeah, and what's the score in india?
Speaker 9 (51:02):
so I?
I mean it'll be two months forme.
On 2nd May I'll be two monthsold here.
Just two months, yeah.
But India and UK share a verydeep relationship.
There's a lot of vibrancy whenit comes to the different
industries where India's prettyactive and UK businesses are
very open to investing as wellas building their IP portfolios
(51:25):
in those industries.
So because of that sharedrelationship and plus the
fantastic relationship that theIPO UK as well as the IPO India
has that's that sort of you knowit's been easy for me to just
blend in and just pick up wheremy predecessors are left off.
So it's been pretty smooth.
And as of now, the focus is, uh, enforcement and sensitization
(51:50):
of judiciary and see if thereare certain best practices that
the indian judiciary can seekfrom the uk judiciary and vice
versa.
So those are a couple of things, and then we also have a lot of
interest in ai, of course, youknow the world is talking about
it.
Yeah, exactly yeah.
So uh, we're still trying tofigure out where India is at
(52:11):
vis-a-vis uh IP, because, uh, wedon't have AI defined when it
comes to, like, copyrightedworks and it's more human
centric.
If it's human originated work,then it's, you know, a copyright
, but uh, in of ai, if we'restill trying to figure out what
is going to happen in the cup inthe next couple of months but a
lot of buzz of activity in thatarea then obviously in you know
(52:35):
, when I say india, there's alot of technology and a lot of
tech related works in the make.
So I think what will beinteresting to see is, uh, how
uk businesses can actuallyinvest in the technology sector,
not just in uh relation to ipor ai, but also trying to
understand the deep fake andwhat's all, what's happening
(52:58):
there, everything that's, youknow, like in the bylines of ai.
Speaker 4 (53:02):
So that's about that yeah, so trade would be the
first one, because you're bothworking in areas where the UK is
currently looking to do someinteresting stuff around trade
Obviously a trade agreement withIndia and the Gulf cooperation
countries in terms of your area.
So do you expect to getyourselves involved in trade
much?
Speaker 2 (53:22):
From my side.
When I joined IPO, the IPchapter of the FDA that is under
negotiation with GCC countrieswas closed already, oh wow.
So I didn't have the chance toattend negotiations and
discussions.
But I was lucky.
When I just joined I attended aDeepCon, a white diplomatic
(53:43):
conference and design law treaty, and I went to Riyadh, which
was really fun.
My second week in Riyadh.
It was really interesting.
I mean seeing the discussionsout of WIPO, because I was
always attending WIPO committeesand being in WIPO and then
experiencing WIPO discussions inRiyadh in the region that I
started to work.
It was really interesting.
But on the trade side, likenothing at the moment.
(54:06):
But of course, because the FDAis under a rudder and apparently
UK and UAE they're also UAEwanted a separate one.
So we'll see and I'm hopingthat I've been super optimistic
here that with this FDA theother opportunities would come
up soon as well.
Yeah, so on the government side, no trade at this stage.
(54:28):
But of course, as I mentioned,we are working with the
businesses so that we canreflect the businesses' concerns
to the government and, as Divyamentioned, we are working on
the same issues on theenforcement side, on the AI and
also IP finance.
Ip finance is a big topic forus.
We would like to work and we'rejust, you know, evaluating the
opportunities and the governmentis both ua and saudi are
(54:49):
interested to work on this, soyeah, ip finance.
Yeah, ip backed finance yeah solending on the basis of ip, yes,
okay, yeah and, interestingly,some uae banks have started to
have some because we've got someinteresting products in the uk
that, yeah, I guess you'retalking to colleagues about yeah
(55:11):
, I mean, actually it's my, myfavorite like ip topic.
Now I love it, right, I don'tlike ai, I have to.
You can remove this part, butlike ip finance is like, because
I've been coaching a lot ofsmes and small and medium-sized
businesses, they always have thefinancial issue, especially the
region that I'm working with.
(55:32):
So I think this is a topic thatwould perfectly work with like
well, with, uh, you know, likewith the business interests in
the region okay, so I thinkindia is also in the same
position because we also havethe FTA with the UK.
Speaker 9 (55:46):
In fact, our minister , Mr Piyush Goyal, is already in
London, so that's happening.
So I'm hoping that soon we'llbe able to see and then work on
the IP bit.
But it was closed just before Ijoined, just like Sanas.
Speaker 4 (56:03):
So yeah, yeah.
So thank you both so much forjoining us.
I will say, because you'rerelatively new to role, maybe
you'd come back and have anextended conversation with us we
don't have to be in the samecountry.
We can do this remotely, and wecan.
Speaker 12 (56:17):
I would love to come back to London just for a
podcast but for sure yeah, butfor sure.
Speaker 5 (56:23):
Yeah, because I but for sure yeah.
Speaker 9 (56:23):
But for sure, yeah, because I think my dog has been
part of several discussionsloudly and I think he knows more
about Section 3D, pat and Satthan the other people.
So yeah, that's a well-educateddog.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (56:38):
Thank you for finishing the podcast on such an
upbeat note for us.
Thank you.
Thanks all to you.
This has been two IPs in a pod.
Looking at the amazing world ofthe UK's IP attachés.
Speaker 5 (56:46):
We're safe hands.
We are safe hands.
If you've listened to thepodcast and you've enjoyed it.
Speaker 4 (56:50):
Then drop us a little review somewhere so other
people can find the podcast.
Neil, I'll see you on a futurepodcast at some point.
And to all of the attachéswho've?
Shared their time and expertisewith us.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (57:21):
Thank you.
Two hot peas in a.
Two hot peas in a.
Two hot peas in a.
Two hot peas in a.
We're here to support innovation, growth and the
economy, and the way we need todo that is to make sure we are
really aware of what's going onin all these ecosystems, so that
businesses can prepare and beaware and be that step ahead.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod
and you are listening to apodcast on intellectual property
brought to you by the CharteredInstitute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
Neil, great to see you.
Mate.
Here we are in the BritishLibrary, Cool place, isn't it?
Particularly warm day.
Why are we here.
Speaker 5 (00:38):
It's IP Attaché week and we're lucky enough to have
the IPO's Attaché team with ustoday.
Attaché week and we're luckyenough to have the IPO's Attaché
team with us today.
Speaker 4 (00:44):
We've been really looking forward to it, haven't
we?
I think it's the first timethat the UK IPO has been able to
bring all of the Attachéstogether, come to the UK and
meet with various stakeholderorganisations and partner
organisations, and we've beenreally looking forward to this,
they do an amazing job.
Speaker 5 (00:58):
All the main markets of the world, from Latin America
to Europe, to USA and Asia.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
So let's get them on, shall we?
So first up, neil, we've gotSarah Sarah Roberts-Favell.
Sarah, welcome to the podcast.
Great to have you on.
Been wanting to get you on thepodcast for a long time because
we've worked together in thepast on stuff like CPTPP and
those kinds of things and hereyou are.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
You've made it.
It's been a long time coming,but, yeah, I'm really glad to be
here.
Speaker 5 (01:27):
We need to explain what the CPTPP is quickly oh the
Comprehensive and ProgressiveAgreement for Trans-Pacific
Partnership.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
It rolls after the tongue when you've worked on it
for as long as we have over theyears.
Speaker 5 (01:37):
When you presented it to.
Speaker 6 (01:38):
Parliament honestly.
Speaker 4 (01:39):
But, yeah that's.
That's not what we're hereabout, though, is it so?
Sarah's got a role now in termsof promoting the UK IP attaché
network and overseeing that area, so tell us a wee bit about it.
What's it all about, sarah?
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Well, I've come to my dream job, to be honest, sort
of bringing trade and IP andinternational work all together.
So the International AttachéNetwork is where we work
overseas with IPO staff, butbased in UK embassies overseas
in key strategic markets, andthey've got a job which is
fourfold.
One is obviously to support thetrade agreements and work on
those as and when they come up.
One is to drive UK exports, soto help people understanding
(02:17):
when they go out to thesemarkets, what do they need to
know about their IP so theydon't misstep.
Because knowing before you gois is crucial.
That way you can prepare, youput your.
IP protection plan in place.
We also have a third role,which is to bring foreign direct
investment into the UK tosupport domestic growth as well
as domestic growth external.
(02:43):
We want to bring trade in the UKso that people come here and
think, oh, I'm looking at aheadquarters in the sort of
European area or the UK is astrong place to go.
So our job is to do that aswell, and the other part is
obviously to help change thepolitical and IP ecosystems
within the regions as well.
So we have a really broad role.
(03:03):
We're like IP diplomats is theway I sort of look at it in that
we sit there and we work withbusinesses, but we're there to
help local governments andindustry to share good practice
globally.
So it's it's about as excitingan ip role as you can get.
Really, I think it, althoughobviously patent attorneys are
also a very exciting role veryhighly valuable and we would
never want to diminish that no,but from a policy perspective I
(03:25):
think it's about as exciting asyou can get for ip what
jurisdictions?
Speaker 4 (03:28):
where are we active?
Speaker 1 (03:29):
well, we got hot off the press in the last six months
at a new post, so I'll startthere and work sort of around.
But we've got a new post whichis mina, which we love our
acronyms, don't we?
So middle east and north africa.
I thought that was a name.
Sorry, no, exactly, and this isa problem.
It's this love of acronyms oneverything, isn't it?
(03:55):
But our post is based in Dubai,which we think is a really great
jumping off hub for not justthe GCC but the North Africa
region and the wider region aswell, because it's such a
dynamic region changing sorapidly, it's really crucial for
us to understand the ipecosystems and frameworks as
they develop out there.
So that's literally a newstartup role.
We moved it from riad to dubai.
We've got a new attache, but inan older post, which is in
india, so working in the indiaand asia area.
(04:18):
We've then got singapore,obviously china and hong kong.
We've then got the us.
We've got latin america, so wespread ourselves bilaterally
globally.
Kong, we've then got the US.
We've got Latin America, so wespread ourselves bilaterally
globally.
But we've also then obviouslygot an attache in Europe that's
quite new, isn't it, sarah theEuropean?
it's, it's one of the newerposts, one of the newer posts,
yeah, and then we've got theGeneva post as well, which is
(04:40):
crucial with Lizzie and Vale,because you you can't think
about IP and you can't thinkabout global IP without looking
at the multilateral institutions.
So, they're crucial to lookingat those wider treaties.
I mean, I joined this job andeveryone oh, you know the wheels
of the multilateral space turnslowly and I've only been in the
role 18 months and I've had twodiplomatic conferences, so I
(05:03):
don't know whether that's a goodthing.
I'm hoping the listeners thinkit is, but it's been a you know,
big change there.
So we've got to have have goodrepresentation, strong
representation in Geneva as well.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
And what?
What would you say?
Your top challenges are what'son the radar for the attaché
network?
Speaker 1 (05:19):
I think that the the challenge and the problem we
always face is resource.
It's there, is, and making surewe're really targeting where we
want to be.
There's so much we could do andit's making sure we're doing
the right thing in the rightplace at the right time.
And that's the biggestchallenge we face, because we
have a variety of things we cando, whether it's through patents
, examiner exchanges, trademarkexaminer exchanges, judicial
(05:40):
exchanges, sharing good throughto moving away from the trading
space to political influencingand other things.
But there's so much we could doand it's just making sure that
we're being really real civilservice jargon here, but
intentional around what we'relooking at doing.
Are we achieving what we wantwhere we want and when we want?
And the world changes so fastand IP is really changing fast.
(06:05):
With some of the challengesthat are coming through with the
knock-ons from the dip cons, ai, ip finance and all of these
priorities it's making sure thatwe're really at the forefront
of where we want to beinternationally is always going
to be the challenge, but that'sthe fun of the job too and I
don't know if the part of thejob is this, but it seems to me
that there's always this ongoingdialogue about harmonization,
(06:26):
particularly in the patent world.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
Lots of conversations about harmonization.
So do the does the attachenetwork have a role to play at
that in terms of understandinghow the different ip ecosystems
operate and where there might besynergies between them?
Speaker 1 (06:37):
exactly that finding where the synergies are, keeping
their finger on the pulse as towhat legislation's going on in
the region.
So, so, particularly some ofour attaches they have a real
political focus to really keeptheir fingers on the pulse as to
what legislation might becoming through, what changes
might be happening in other IPoffices around the world.
So we can see where thesynergies are, but also where
there might begin to bedivergences for whatever reason,
(06:59):
so we can really make sure thatwe're able to keep stakeholders
informed.
We're here to support growthand the economy and the way we
need to do that is to make surewe are really aware of what's
going on in all these ecosystemsso that businesses can prepare
and be aware and be that stepahead so this feels incredibly
unfair.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
but we are on a bit of a whistle stop tour, aren't
we?
Because we are going to now gothrough all of the attachés and
talk to them about their, theirvarious perspectives from their
particular jurisdictions.
But let's finish with somehigh-level stuff from you.
Sarah, I don't know if you'regoing to move on from this job
or you're so passionate about itthat it's your job for life now
, but let's say, two or threeyears down the line you're
thinking now's the time to moveon.
What's success look like?
Speaker 1 (07:38):
I mean, success for me is making sure that we've
really got strong representationand continue to have strong
representation at WIPO and theWTO and all of the work in those
spaces, and that we've reallymanaged to really hit the
agendas there that we're lookingto have.
I mean, I always like to beable to look and know that the
enforcement landscape hasimproved, because IP rights are
(07:59):
really crucial.
But what I would like to see issuccess would be that we've got
fewer issues, fewer challengesaround infringement and around
enforcement.
So that's really what I'd liketo see, but it's.
It's a job I love.
It was one of those jobs itcomes across, it comes you watch
from afar and covet and andwhen it came up, the opportunity
was just I.
Whilst I love the tradeagreements and the work we did
(08:21):
on them, it's this role was, wasthe one that's always been
there and it's the one you wantto go for.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
So can I dangle a little carrot now to close, is
that okay can?
Speaker 1 (08:28):
I think of a carrot, is that okay?
Speaker 4 (08:29):
I guess.
So why not?
Because you are here really tokeep an eye on me, aren't you?
That's your job.
It's been lovely talking to you, but I know there's far more
that we could explore and I'mwondering if you would do us the
great honor of coming back and,yeah, and let's do sort of like
the full duration of a podcasttalking about you, the role, the
work and everything you do,because I know it's so exciting
I'd really love to definitelythank you thank you for your
(08:52):
time, sarah.
We're gonna we're gonna now talksome of the other attaches.
So, okay, that was great tohear from sarah, wasn't it nil?
Uh, always great to hear fromsarah.
Always great to hear from sarah, so't it, neil?
Always great to hear from Sarah, always great to hear from
Sarah.
So we've got our first twoattaches now to talk to.
We've got Kayleigh and we'vegot Angelica.
Kayleigh, do you want tointroduce yourself?
Speaker 10 (09:12):
Is that okay?
I would love to.
I'm Kayleigh Nauman.
I am in the North AmericanIntellectual Property Attaché,
based in Washington DC, and Icover the United States, Canada
and Mexico.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
Fair to say, not a bad gig at the moment, is it?
Speaker 10 (09:26):
I mean there's a lot going on, you know, Not a dull
moment right now.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
Yeah, we're going to hopefully pick through some of
that.
And, angelica, welcome to thepodcast.
Who are you?
Speaker 7 (09:35):
I'm Angelica, as I just said.
So, yes, I'm Angelica.
I'm Biotache, based in SaoPaulo, covering Latin America
and the Caribbean, but Brazil isour main country, the country
that we work with for the moment, and it's a pleasure to be here
.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
So can I kind of ask the personal, professional stuff
.
First off, how did both of youcome to be IP attachés?
Speaker 10 (09:57):
I actually am.
Most people who work in IPobviously have a legal
background.
I actually do not.
I am a social scientist bytraining, so I come of the way
of working in policy.
I previously worked for aDemocratic member of the House
of Representatives, actuallyduring the first Trump
administration, before this role.
So I was hired as the UK wasleaving the EU to help with our
(10:19):
bilateral trade negotiations andwas really hard because I know
the landscape in DC very well Iknow how to hang out with all
the folks there.
So built this really robustnetwork as soon as I got in, but
really very much from thatpolicy space.
I had worked in city and stategovernment before working in
federal.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
Cool.
And, angelica, what's yourbackstory?
Speaker 7 (10:40):
So I'm an IP lawyer and.
I've done my master's in Londonat Queen Mary University of
London.
Then I went back to Brazil.
I worked for some IP firms.
Then I found out that workingfor a diplomatic mission was a
possibility and I was like, wow,this is very exciting, so I
applied and I've joined UKTIlike 10 years ago, uk Trade and
(11:03):
Investment and then I've joinedthe IPO and yeah, here I am.
Speaker 10 (11:08):
We both did school in the UK.
I did my master's at Cambridge,so See, I'm not an IP.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
I don't have an IP background, I'm more of a social
scientist.
So yeah, share your pain.
Speaker 10 (11:17):
Yeah, I mean, I very much came from that like
international relationsviewpoint Angelica.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
Latin America, that's quite a big patch, isn't it?
Speaker 7 (11:25):
Well, yeah, it is Well.
Brazil is already the size ofthe whole continent, so Latin
America is even bigger.
Speaker 4 (11:30):
Where's your hotspots ?
Where are you focused on?
Speaker 7 (11:32):
Well, Brazil.
So we have two main agendasworking with the Brazilian
government enforcement of IP andprotection of IP.
So we have achieved a lot ofbig successes, I would say, in
the enforcement area, and a lotof big successes, I would say,
in the enforcement area.
And also we have just been ableto help Scotch Risk Association
to register Scotch as ageographical indication.
That is worth £25 million forthe next five years.
(11:55):
So it's a very broad agenda.
And of course, now we arehaving discussions about
artificial intelligence, as Ithink it's the case with every
country trying to understand how, yeah, where the balance of ip
lies.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
So it's a big, interesting agenda in the latin
america and, um, maybe an unfairquestion in terms of what more
for the ipo than for you, buthow well supported are you, how
well resourced are you in theroles that you do?
Speaker 10 (12:19):
I think we're pretty well resourced I mean it's.
We have small teams, I thinkmost attaches.
You have your sort of main deskofficer and then two support
officers that we feed into.
Angelica and I have the samedesk officer and we have a
really great relationship withthe team.
You know, I'm sure thateveryone in government was like
we could use six more people.
(12:39):
And like Angelica, now has ananalyst in Brazil.
I am so envious, it's veryexpensive to have an analyst in
DC.
So we're hanging on at themoment.
But if I could have someone justto watch all the hearings, for
me that are happening on theHill.
That would be great.
Speaker 7 (12:54):
And the thing is we can always use colleagues, like
colleagues from GBT, for anoffice to help us.
So I'm based in Brazil and Itake care of the whole Latin
American and Caribbean region.
So if I need something inArgentina, for example, I can
always use the help ofcolleagues in host.
Speaker 10 (13:11):
If it's like a new policy area development we can
call the policy folks at IPO andthey're always happy to help on
the phone.
So yeah, I think we're prettyrobust in resource for all
things considered so what's bigon the radar?
Speaker 4 (13:23):
you've mentioned ai.
We've talked a little bit abouttrade.
Is there anything else that youthink is coming up over the
over the horizon?
That might be the next biggiefor you.
Speaker 10 (13:29):
I mean ai is taking up a lot of my bandwidth um, you
know the the us has been really, really invested in what an ai
governance policy looks like.
Um, you know trump's executiveorder day one revoked a number
of Biden's executive orders andthat included the AI executive
order.
We're waiting to see if thatincludes rehashing or reviewing
(13:53):
the US Patent and TrademarkOffice's AI guidance that
they've issued, because it wasissued under that executive
order.
Obviously we work with thatoffice, with the US Patent and
Trademark Office, in depth atthe working level on these
issues.
Already the Copyright Office inthe US had issued, or has
wrapped up, a consultation on AIand copyright, much like we
(14:14):
recently did.
I can't comment on ours, butthe US Copyright Office split
their report into three.
The third chunk of that reportis anticipated this year and I
think that gives us a reallygood idea direction to travel in
the us and also opens up moreopportunities for us to have
those more robust working levelconversations than we have, and
then I'm sure time will tellwhat else is going to come up
(14:36):
here you know like three yearsago I spoke on a couple
conference panels about themetaverse, so there will be
something new here soon.
I'm going the metaverse, yeah sofor us.
Speaker 7 (14:47):
Well, the enforcement agenda is a priority for um,
for the ipo in brazil and therest of latin america, but we
also have call 30 this year inbrazil in belen, the amazon
region, and we have a veryexciting program together with
the foreign Office which isbuilding capacity with local
communities in the Amazon regionso they learn how to protect
(15:11):
trademarks, and this is insideBrazil's intellectual property
strategy.
So we've partnered with MFA,Itamaraty, the Brazilian Foreign
Office and also the BrazilianPatent Office, the Ministry of
Industry and Commerce in Brazil.
So we are really lookingforward to continue the project
and maybe luckily deliversomething in time for COP.
Speaker 4 (15:35):
Perfect.
I'm not suggesting for onemoment that you're just about to
disappear over the horizon, butlet's take you two or three
years into the future, wheremaybe you're thinking the time
might be right to look tosomething else.
For each of you, what's legacy?
What would you say?
Yay, I did that.
Speaker 7 (15:48):
Well, I think in my case I'm really proud of is this
partnerships we have withBrazilian enforcers, with police
, the Ministry of Justice andthe public attorney's office.
So the techniques they'velearned from us and from PIPCO,
the techniques they've learnedfrom us and from PIPCO, mainly
to fight IP crimes.
(16:09):
They use to fight other sortsof crimes, so pedophilia and
bank fraud and prevent attacksto schools.
So it's amazing to see the sizeand the dimension of the impact
of the work we do yeah, sothat's exporting UK IP expertise
, exactly, and it's alsofighting on behalf of IP,
(16:30):
fighting IP crimes, but alsofighting other sorts of horrible
crimes as well.
So it's and to see those peoplethere.
Also, you've mentioned passion.
Those people are reallypassionate about what they do.
They really have a sense ofjustice and want to make the
world a better place.
So it's great to be in themiddle of that and to enable
this to happen.
(16:50):
That's very cool.
Speaker 10 (16:51):
I'm trying to think of like one shining moment,
because there's a lot of what Ido.
When you're successful inpolicy, you often know that
you're successful because no onecan point out that you did
something.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
Fair point.
Speaker 10 (17:02):
So it can be a little hard for me to identify
something.
Point out that you didsomething Fair point.
So it can be a little hard forme to identify something, but
there's been some opportunitiesto engage in ways that are very
specific to where I am and beingin DC.
And one thing is that at theend of 2023, former registrar of
copyrights who is not themotion picture association Karen
Temple, joined a panel in frontof the house subcommittee.
It's got a very long name, butit includes intellectual
(17:24):
property.
House subcommittee.
It's got a very long name, butit includes intellectual
property.
It's like it's the courts, theinternet, now artificial
intelligence is part of the nameand intellectual property, but
I don't think in that order, butthat is to say she spoke in
front of the house subcommitteeon ip about website blocking and
the harm of piracy fromwebsites in third countries.
(17:44):
You know about how thosewebsites are often linked to all
sorts of other illicitactivities it's very often
criminal organizations etc.
And just talking about the needfor a similar framework in the
US, because there's not awebsite blocking framework in
the US.
I have very good relationshipswith the folks who work on the
subcommittee and, following thehearing, immediately sent them
an email and said hey, we have avery robust regime here.
(18:05):
We would love to share ourexpertise and talk to you about
it, and so we've had a number ofworking level conversations.
We had Representative DarylIssa from California, who's the
lead Republican on thesubcommittee, was out here with
Ben Kline, a Democrat from Iforget which state, and a couple
of their staff.
Last summer we talked to themin depth about our regime.
(18:26):
I've participated in aroundtable hosted by
Representative Issa on thistopic and it's hard to say if it
will really come to fruition.
He's definitely going to writea bill.
He's definitely going tointroduce a bill.
It's going to be a lot of workto get other members of Congress
on board, but to be able to bepart of that process in such a
(18:47):
dynamic way no longer being astaffer on the Hill because I
used to write bills on the Hill,but in a sort of different way
is certainly very cool andsomething that has been very
exciting, and we similarly forthe CASE Act, which created the
Copyright Small Claims Board andthe Copyright Office in the US
Before that bill passed as anamendment to appropriations
(19:07):
legislation.
Hakeem Jeffries, who's now theDemocratic leader in the House,
introduced that bill and wespoke to his office several
times and connected them withjudges and were able to give
them feedback on what you knowour core system here looks like,
and that's been very cool to beable to participate in that.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
Oh, thank you both so much for sharing your time.
Thank you very much so it'sreally good, wasn't it, to hear
from um, from kaylee andangelica.
Speaker 5 (19:38):
Range of skills these people have is is mind-boggling
.
Speaker 4 (19:41):
Such exciting area to work as well as it seems, and
the pat and the passioncertainly seems to be there.
So we've got Samuel and Desmondwith us now.
Welcome to the podcast.
Hi guys, thanks for having usReally good to have you here.
Sorry, we're rushing youthrough at the moment Going
around the world in half an hour.
Speaker 5 (19:54):
Yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 11 (19:56):
So can you introduce yourself?
Okay, so I'm Samuel Stone, soI'm our attache that is based
out in China.
So I'm based in Beijing.
I actually have a small teamout there.
So IPO has got myself, and thenwe've got two more colleagues
that work with me in Beijing andwe've also got someone based in
Shanghai.
We've got someone in Shanghaibecause that's where a lot of
(20:18):
the UK companies have theirheadquarters.
So in that way it's good forthe kind of business
relationship side.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
Samuel, just very briefly what brought you into
the Attaché network?
Speaker 11 (20:29):
Yes, I've been working on China-related policy
for a while, so actually I'vebeen in the civil service for
quite a while and the rolebefore this one I was in DBT,
dit at the time, doing Chinatrade policy.
So that was much broader.
It kind of wrapped up IP aswell as a narrow part of it, but
it was more business,environment issues, market
(20:51):
access issues and trade dialogue.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
Fab.
Thank you.
So, Desmond, same question foryou how did you get to where you
are?
Speaker 8 (20:59):
Certainly.
Thank you very much.
So I'm Desmond, I'm the attachéfor Southeast Asia, I'm based
in Singapore and I'll cover IPfor the whole region.
So what we do is that we'llcover the government, government
relationships as well as thegovernment to business support.
So all our UK business friendsthat wants to come to the region
are already in the region.
We'll have them on that.
We also support and do IPdevelopment work under FCDO.
(21:20):
We also have a very small teamin the region.
I think I have two colleaguesin Indonesia, one colleague
colleague in Singapore, one inHanoi and we're hiring one more
in Malaysia as well.
Okay, yep.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
So, yeah, it's a little bit of a team around you
then, so you're not just workingon your own.
Speaker 8 (21:32):
True, yes, but I think we cover about 10 to 11
countries which is pretty a lotas well.
So that's what our regionaltravel coverage.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
So what's big on each of your radars, sam?
Speaker 11 (21:47):
Let's start with you .
What's number one priority inChina?
Number one priority in China.
So I would say that the systemin China, the IP system, has
been developing pretty rapidlyover the years.
So it's changing quite quicklyand most of that has been
(22:07):
positive change.
So definitely we've seen thekind of you know in terms of
registering rights andprotecting rights.
Things have got better across anumber of areas, but then there
are still that's not to saythere's still some systemic
challenges that remain for UKrights owners.
So I would say, for example,counterfeiting yeah, we do
estimate that between about 70to 80 percent of the world's
counterfeits are originatingfrom china.
(22:29):
I mean the, the scale of chinaand the manufacturing capacity
there is obviously yeah, so sothat's, that's a real issue.
Other issues include fightingdigital piracy.
Bad faith trademarks issomething that comes up a lot to
me and my team yeah so that'swhere someone you know, an actor
, is preemptively registering a,a trademark, and then, with
(22:51):
sort of the malicious intentthat they want to squat the
trademark and maybe you know,extort it back when that brand
owner is coming into the marketso that's always been a steadily
been quite a big issue for us,and I would just say that it's
moving now more my priority, Isuppose towards enforcement as
well, now that that kind oflegal framework is actually, you
(23:12):
know, has been improving overyears, the actually following up
on the, the enforcement of IPand China being such a big place
, the kind of the difference inenforcement outcomes between
places that's sort of comingbecoming more of a priority.
Speaker 5 (23:26):
And is that helping uk business to enforce their
rights in china or using ukinfluence to improve enforcement
across the country moregenerally?
Speaker 11 (23:36):
yeah.
So I would say it's a mixbecause it's very similar to
desmond.
We kind of have that governmentto government role and then the
business support side.
I would usually divide it inthose two and so if it's the
business support, then it mightbe that we are trying to provide
what support we can in specificcases.
That might just be providinginformation or talking through
(23:58):
some options when a company hasan enforcement issue or another
issue, or maybe we can help todo some government facilitation
or facilitation betweenplatforms and rights owners.
But it's also on the governmentto government side.
So that's where we do a lot ofsharing of best practice.
So you know the UK's it has agood reputation for you know our
(24:23):
IP system and capabilities inmany areas, and so we will do
that sort of best practicesharing to try and help bring up
standards across the board.
Speaker 4 (24:36):
And Desmond, you're working across multiple
jurisdictions.
How does that play out for you?
What would be your prioritiesin that?
Speaker 8 (24:42):
Yeah, so I think Southeastia is a very exciting
region because it has about 680million people.
30 percent are in the middleincome.
It's projected 50 percent to bemiddle income by about 2030.
And like what?
And if southeast asia is aneconomy, it is the fifth largest
.
Well, so, and as what sam hasmentioned, a lot of the
counterfeits actually came fromfrom china, but it actually
(25:02):
flows through southeast asia aswell, so we are part of the node
and therefore, for us, we thinkenforcement is one of our top
priorities and because how wethink about it is that you have
IP protection.
Without enforcement, it's likebuying a safe and leaving the
door open.
So we really think enforcementgives meaning to IP protection
in the region especially, and wewant to help our UK businesses
whenever they come in tonavigate the region the 10
(25:24):
countries, so you have tonavigate 10 sets of enforcement
regimes right, that can bereally complicated.
So we want to do the help themon that and not just that.
Increasingly, we see e-commerceis really important because
most consumers now buy productsonline.
That's why, in Southeast Asia,we also focus on enforcement and
in the e-commerce space.
Speaker 4 (25:42):
So our conversation with Kayleigh I mean it's a
shame, isn't it, because youdon't get to hear the
conversations that went beforebut the conversation with
Kayleigh, and perhaps also to adegree with Angelica, was about
trade and the role of theattache network in fostering
those trade relationships.
Do you get involved in thoseconversations?
Speaker 8 (26:01):
Yes, we do in some part, because part of our work
is also on policy as well.
But of course we focus a lot onbusiness support and government
relationships.
For example, in Southeast Asiathere's an RSAT and then there's
also the CPTPP, which you canjust join, and amongst all these
we think it's a veryinteresting way of looking at IP
, because RSAT looks intoharmonizing all the IP regimes
in Southeast Asia.
Cptpp ups the level.
(26:23):
It improves IP enforcement, ipprotection provisions.
So we see this interplayactually provides a lot of
opportunities for our UKbusinesses.
Rsat makes the IP system morecommon so that means when
businesses come out you don'thave to navigate so many IP
protection regimes.
Cptpp makes enforcement easierin a way because it ups the
(26:44):
quality of IP protection.
So when UK businesses come upthey can focus a lot more about
IP commercialization and takingthe best of your IP assets.
Of course I'm making it soundvery simple here.
In front of the region therewill still be counterfeits,
there will still be piracy, andthat's where here we are as the
IP Attaché Network to supportall UK businesses on all their
enforcement priorities and needs.
Speaker 5 (27:04):
UK businesses on all their enforcement priorities and
needs.
So the hope with CPTPP wasn'tit was that other partners to
the CPTPP would bring theirenforcement quality and levels
up to the UK.
Yes, so in a way it's likeleveling up together and that's
what we're seeing.
Speaker 8 (27:17):
I think it's going to be a journey because currently,
right now in Southeast Asia,there are 11 countries, if you
include Timor-Leste, and I thinkfour are in CPTPP already
Singapore, vietnam, brunei andMalaysia.
Singapore, I think, is a uniquecountry where the IP regime is
very strong, the rule of law isvery strong and IP enforcement
is also very strong, and I thinkthat CPTPP provides opportunity
(27:40):
for all the other countries tolevel up together and, with UK
coming in and as UK is also adialogue partner to ASEAN, and
this brings a lot of opportunityfor us to work together for
shared prosperity and, I think,as long as when businesses, be
it UK and ASEAN, have a commonvested interest, that makes
trade a lot easier and we areall aligned in our goals
Fantastic.
Speaker 4 (28:01):
Similar in China, Samuel, in terms of the trade
relationship.
Speaker 11 (28:03):
In terms of the trade relationship, In terms of
the trade relationship, ourinvolvement, I would say that so
we do work very closely withour colleagues from the
Department for Business andTrade.
Yeah, so we've got a strongnetwork in China and they have
the you know, they have theremit to help support exports
from the UK to other countries,including China, and also for
(28:25):
attracting that inwardinvestment.
Now, while I don't exactly havethat same goal as they do,
actually, what you find reallyis that we work very close
together because these exportersas the government is trying to
give support to help UKexporters grow and reach markets
abroad, well, of course, theyneed to have that IP knowledge
(28:48):
and understanding along the way.
So we will sort of feed intothat process to make sure that
exporters have got that IPknowledge before they go.
I would say we also kind oftouch on it in a way, because,
working on these IP issuestogether with China and
exchanging best practice andhelping to support UK rights
(29:08):
owners in China, you touch onissues of the business
environment in China and alsoperhaps some of the IP issues
could be seen as market accessissues.
So in a way, you're helping totry and create a kind of
conducive business environment,remove any trade barriers that
(29:30):
might still exist, so that youcan facilitate more trade.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Yeah, it makes sense.
Listeners don't know, but we'regetting wave jets through the
window to move on.
Your time is up, so we just geta little wave, but you're not
going to get away without thequestion that I've asked your
colleagues little wave, um.
But you're not going to getaway without the question that
I've asked your colleagues, andthat's you're not going to run
away from this job.
You're clearly passionate aboutit, but at some point in the
future you might move on.
When you move on, what?
What does success look like?
Speaker 11 (29:55):
what will you look back and say, yeah, I did that
um, success look like, I mean,it's the, it's the helping
businesses and then seeing thesecases go through and be
successful is a really good partof the job.
Yeah, building therelationships as well.
So we've both talked about thatkind of priority and
(30:18):
enforcement and we've actuallybeen trying to build our
relationships with some of theenforcement agencies in China,
actually been trying to buildour relationships with some of
the enforcement agencies inChina.
So being able to look back andactually say you know that's
taken a step forward during ourtime there, you know, to best
support businesses, I think Iwould take that, yeah, it feels
good, doesn't it?
Speaker 8 (30:34):
Yeah, I think for me, I guess it's a journey, I think
it's not.
It's a destination, not a busstop.
Looking back, it'll be reallygood to see how UK is a trusted
partner to Southeast Asia,especially in air enforcement,
because for us, UK we're really,really strong in IP enforcement
and, look, I just hope that asthis thing goes on, the
relationship just gets betterand better and better, stronger
(30:55):
and stronger and stronger.
We'll be really happy to hearthat.
I think right now, uk we have athree-year lead on e-commerce
enforcement and I'm sure that inthe future, people will build
on this and make it even better.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
Thank you both so much for sharing your time with
us.
Thank you so much for thisopportunity.
Thanks for having us.
It's been quite good afternoon,hasn't it?
We've been hearing all thesegreat stories about the IP
Attaché Network, and now we getto do some more.
So we've got Lizzie and Aidanwith us.
It'd be IP Attaché Network, andnow we get to do some more.
So we've got Lizzie and Aidanwith us.
(31:26):
Be great if you could introduceyourselves, because obviously
you know more about you than wedo, so Lizzie should we start
with you.
Speaker 12 (31:30):
Who are you Sure?
Thank you, so I'm Lizzie Wilson.
I'm the IP Attaché that's basedin Geneva.
I work with the multilateralinstitutions and all the UN
organisations out there.
So wherever IP comes up, I tryto be try to be there.
Predominantly that's with theworld intellectual property
organization, ypo, um, and alsowith the wto, world trade
organization, but also done abit of uh stuff with the who as
(31:53):
well, um.
But yeah, as I say, wherever ipstrikes up in in the un
institutions, I try and get mynose in there and and.
Speaker 4 (32:02):
What brought you into this world?
What attracted you?
Speaker 12 (32:06):
So I have been a civil servant for quite a few
years and I did some workpreviously at the IPO, where I
was the desk officer that wasworking with the ASEAN region,
and so I had a little bit ofknowledge there about the IP
world and the IPO, and when thisrole came up in Geneva I
applied for it and here I am.
Speaker 6 (32:28):
So it's great to have you and Aidan, how about you?
Well, thanks for having me.
I'm Aidan Sampson.
I'm the IPO's Europe attaché.
I'm based in Brussels and Icover both the EU as well as the
wider Europe region, ourbilateral relations with all
European countries.
I think we stretch as far as torussia and turkey.
Yeah, but I'd say probably.
I've been giving differentfigures to all different
(32:49):
stakeholders.
I've been meeting sometimes Isay 75 percent eu, someone's 80
percent eu.
Speaker 4 (32:53):
I'm going to say to you, 80 of my job is eu there
was a test at the end of theweek, so yeah, so, so yeah, my
main focus is the eu, but yeah,we cover the whole of Europe as
well, fab.
Speaker 6 (33:04):
And how about you?
What?
Brought you into this world.
So well, ip is fairly new to me.
I started this job two and ahalf years ago.
My background is EU andEuropean affairs international
relations, so I think I studieda little bit of IP law in
university but it was neverreally something that occurred
to me to go into and kind ofstumbled across this job and I
(33:25):
really enjoy it.
Yeah, it's been quite awhirlwind.
Speaker 12 (33:29):
There's a lot to learn, it's really big, but yeah
it's a diverse job, isn't it?
Diverse role, and there'salways new things to pick up,
and you get to learn, and Ithink all of us are incredibly
grateful to our IPO colleagues,who have such incredible
knowledge and skills that theyshare with us as the attaches
that we then take out to themarkets and that must be a great
(33:51):
thing about the way the team'sgrown over the years is you've
got that shared experience andlearning and I think also what
we and I really feel like it'scoming out this week when we're
all together here in london, isthat there's lots of
similarities between our markets, but also lots of differences.
And we can draw out themes fromall of us and what we all see in
(34:13):
our different markets and bringthose together and share some
of that knowledge and learningwhich is invaluable.
Speaker 4 (34:19):
Can I ask either a geeky pattern question is that
okay?
I mean, it's not about goodluck.
Speaker 6 (34:23):
Yeah, sorry, I'm not an expert.
Speaker 4 (34:25):
I apologize in advance, okay, so a geeky
question from a patentperspective, let me say it that
way instead so, but, but alsosort of more broadly.
So we've got the two offices Iguess in in europe, that's the
epo, yeah uh, european patentconvention, obviously larger
than the eu.
38-ish grows over time, doesn'tit?
(34:46):
Member states.
And then you've got the EU IPOand its footprint as an EU organ
, and then you've got now for us, the new Unified Patent Court.
How do you draw all of thosevarious strands together, or do
you?
Speaker 6 (35:00):
not need to.
Well, unfortunately, there area lot more strands than that
that I have to deal with oh, goon, tell, do.
Oh god, I mean, we work alsowith the commission, the
parliament of course and all thevarious um member state
governments.
Yeah, the epo is obviously oneof our most um important
stakeholders.
We are a member of uh, of ofthe epo um, so and we are
(35:21):
building our relationship withthe uh, with the, with the
european union.
We've been resetting ourrelationship and we try to work
closely with the European Union.
We've been resetting ourrelationship and we try to work
closely with the EU.
They're very different organs.
So the EU IPO currently doesnot do anything on patents.
It is focused on trademarks anddesigns.
Speaker 4 (35:40):
It got dangerously close recently with SPC.
Speaker 6 (35:44):
Yeah, so there is an eu proposal on uh creating a
competent center within the eu.
I think would look at um sepsin particular as well.
Yeah, but uh, you know tbc,where all that lands.
But in any case, you know theseare all our important
stakeholders.
You know europe's our closestpartners and yeah, we try to
(36:04):
cooperate with them all.
Speaker 4 (36:06):
Yeah, it's quite a juggling act, isn't it?
Yeah, yours, lizzie.
Very different gig waipo is umalways seems to me to be quite a
difficult conundrum tounderstand and in terms of its
um conferences and and how itgets to policy forming and
decision making.
Can you cast some light on onthat?
Speaker 12 (36:26):
I can try.
It's a really interesting space.
So WIPO, as the UN's technicalagency looking after IP, it's
got quite a number of roles.
Really, I think it's a policyspace for shaping global IP
rules and standards.
Space for shaping global IPrules and standards.
It's a convener for people tocome together, for member states
(36:56):
to come together, but alsobroader stakeholders too.
It also provides capacitybuilding, technical assistance
to member states, which I thinkis particularly valuable for
developing countries, for theglobal south.
So it has quite a number ofroles and it is a.
It can be difficult becausethere are 193 member states yes
um, and they will come at thisfrom slightly different
perspectives, slightly differentpriorities.
(37:18):
You have countries, like the uk, who have very developed and
deep historical IP structuresand systems, and you have
countries which don't have suchdeveloped IP systems.
So it's a balancing act, it isquite a tough balancing act, but
(37:38):
then you also get lots ofdifferent experiences and
something that I think is reallyvaluable that WIPO can do is
bring so many different memberstates together in one space and
you do see a lot of experiencesharing and best practice
sharing.
Actually, that exchange ofknowledge is really really
important and particularly, Ithink the UK and and what the UK
(38:03):
has achieved and done throughthe IPO is really so highly
regarded by a lot of developingcountries and that's fantastic
to see.
Speaker 4 (38:14):
Your job seems, I would say, very different, but
there's a distinction, isn'tthere?
In terms of the fact thatyou're not looking at a
geographical jurisdiction,you're looking more at
international policy.
Is that fair?
Speaker 12 (38:25):
Yeah, that's absolutely right.
I don't see so much of the ordon't do so much of the business
support side of things.
It's very much the multilateralspace.
Looking at some of theinternational treaties, so um
you may know the the two recentwipo uh treaties one one on
(38:47):
genetic resources, one on designlaw.
So that's quite a differentrole negotiating those to
providing that business support.
But hopefully those treatiesare there now to help and
support the business community.
Speaker 4 (39:03):
Yeah, yes, absolutely of course.
And, aidanidan, do you getyourself involved in trade much?
Is that something that you findyourself?
Speaker 6 (39:10):
well, we have the trade and cooperation agreement
with the European Union, whichI'd say it's quite a big part of
my role is to make sure we areimplementing that fully and sort
of working out any post-Brexitissues that we may have.
So on that sense, yes, yes ontrade, and of course we work
with other partners both inEurope and around the world in
(39:31):
trying to get new free tradeagreements as well.
So a couple of questions for me.
Speaker 4 (39:35):
Neil may have something else he wants to ask,
but I'll do my couple of closes,if that's okay.
First of all, each of youbiggest thing on your radar at
the moment what's coming overthe horizon that you're um, that
keeps you awake at night?
Speaker 12 (39:45):
so I think for me in geneva in the near future,
we've got the ypo generalassembly coming up, which is its
annual flagship event really,where you get all of the
different bodies and assemblies.
They meet, all the memberstates come together.
We'll have our ceo, adamwilliams, coming out for that
and he gets to meet heads ofoffices from all the other
(40:07):
member states.
So that's quite a big flagshipevent and we'll be setting the
programme budget for the nextbiennium for WIPO, so that's
really important as a memberstate to make sure that we see
that correctly implemented.
So I think that will be afairly big thing coming up.
And then really I think,considering the current
(40:29):
geopolitical dynamics that we'reseeing, it's about the UK being
a constructive partner for themultilateral system and really
making sure that we can help itkeep going and keep working,
particularly for the businesses,for theEs, for the, for that
community and for our IPstakeholders.
I think, making sure that it'sfit for purpose and works, and
(40:52):
that's that's really critical.
Speaker 4 (40:53):
That's probably enough to have on your plate at
the moment, isn't it?
Yeah?
Yeah just a small job.
There's not much happening inEurope at the moment.
Speaker 6 (40:59):
Aidan, one of the biggest things that is happening
right now for us is is thereset our UK-EU relationship.
Speaker 4 (41:07):
Yeah, of course.
Speaker 6 (41:08):
We have a summit coming up soon between our Prime
Minister and the President ofthe European Commission, and we
are aiming to further developour relationship and to find new
means for British businesses towork in Europe and generally to
improve prosperity for UKbusiness.
And the research coverseverything, and so we are
(41:33):
hopeful that we'll also beboosting our IP relationship
with the EU and Europe as awhole.
That sounds really positive.
Speaker 4 (41:40):
I think so.
Final question from me what'syour individual legacies?
What will you look back and say, yeah, I did, have you done.
You might not have got thereyet, but what might you want
your legacy to be?
Yeah, that's a tough one, isn'tit?
That's a good question.
Speaker 6 (41:55):
it sounds like it might be a job offer as well.
I'm not.
I'm not sure.
Um, you know about individualthings, but I would say that
we've we've done quite a fewgood campaigns in Europe, which
I'm really proud of, I think,and it's been, I mean, it's been
great working with the IPO onthis.
I work closely with the IPOEurope team, who are all great
(42:17):
and they sort of they give methe freedom to you know, devise,
you know and implement my owncampaigns on various issues, and
I think it's yeah.
If I look back on this joblater on in life, I will say I
did that, I did this and yeah,I'd be quite pleased with that
Cool.
Speaker 12 (42:34):
Yeah, and I think I will be really pleased.
I am really pleased to be ableto look back even now and say I
have recently been part of twonew multilateral treaties at
WIPO.
I've also been involved in thenegotiations for the WHO
pandemic accord.
So that's three multilateralagreements within a year, which
(42:58):
for the multilateral system, isactually quite impressive.
Speaker 6 (43:02):
Yeah, it sounds it.
Speaker 12 (43:05):
It's been some hard raids and not all the outcomes
are perfect, but I think it's athat's a pretty good place to be
oh, thank you both so much forsharing your time with us and,
um yeah, enjoy the rest ofattache week it's thank you very
much.
It's a really fun program.
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 4 (43:21):
Thank you so now we're nearly nearly at the end,
but we've saved the best, orlast, I think, because we we get
to do that little bit ofconversation in between
recordings and this.
This feels like it's gonna bequite a bubbly one, do you think
?
These are our newest attachesyeah, so what we'd like you to
(43:42):
do is just to introduceyourselves.
So, zaneh, should we start withyou?
So tell us who you are and whatyou do.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
I'm an IP lawyer, ip slash business.
I have both backgrounds, comingfrom corporate world, oil
sector, oil and gas sector inIran.
Okay, originally coming from theregion that I belong to and
working with differentinstitutions, companies,
different sectors in Iran, andeventually left the country
because of the sanctions.
(44:10):
I always wanted to have aninternational career, which
wasn't possible due to thecountry situation, and then I
was working in Dubai, turkey.
I did a few projects inSoutheast Asia and then I was
like, okay, I cannot live on thesuitcase anymore, I have to
move to Switzerland and I reallywanted to have an opportunity
(44:31):
in international domain, in IP.
So I started studying,continuing my studies in
Switzerland and then eventuallyI started working with Swiss IP
Institute, wipo.
Different sectors, differentdivisions different projects in
Southeast Asia, in Africa,working with regional bureaus,
with technical divisions, withWIPO Academy, a lot.
(44:52):
So I was on the policy side abit of advice to businesses,
coaching businesses and alsotraining and awareness raising.
And also on the side I wasworking with other UN agencies
like International Trade Centerand the IP part of the National
Export Strategy for Iran andbranding of the agricultural
(45:13):
products.
And then I did another projectfor EUIPO it was during pandemic
on IP and gender and howintellectual property system can
contribute to women businesscompetitiveness, again in
Southeast Asia.
And then, yeah, and then Icontinued again with WIPO
(45:34):
different divisions.
I did also a lot of gender workon the side for UN women and
then eventually I was superlucky and happy to find a
position with IPO because I wasin contact with the Geneva IP
attaches.
So it led me to the region thatI'm originally coming from.
So now I'm based in Dubai.
(45:54):
It's six months I'm in the postand I'm enjoying each and every
minute.
Speaker 4 (45:59):
It sounds like it.
It is amazing.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
Gorgeous role, a lot of opportunities, fantastic.
Speaker 4 (46:06):
And Divya, what's your story?
Speaker 9 (46:07):
So my tryst with intellectual property actually
began when I think I was inmiddle school and I happened to
come across Michael Jackson'svideo and I saw the anti-gravity
boots.
I was intrigued.
Speaker 4 (46:20):
The patented anti-gravity boots.
Speaker 9 (46:22):
Yes, I was intrigued and then, you know, at that time
internet was pretty slow, butit was still pretty useful.
So I happened to come across.
While I didn't understand atthat time what patent really was
, but I think it got the wheelsmoving and I started to focus on
it a lot and then I realizedhow we are surrounded by IP on
(46:42):
in everyday life especially, Imean you you wake up, you put
the toothpaste on yourtoothbrush, you see the
trademark there, right there onthe toothpaste.
So, similarly, you know, as youwalk around, you open the
refrigerator, the coke, can yousee the logo again, the design,
the trade secret, the recipe,everything.
So I think that's how my twistwith intellectual property
started and I've always beenquite the opinionated lady.
(47:08):
So my parents suggested thatyou know you should put that to
good use why not become a lawyer?
So I ended up pursuing law andduring that time I was waiting
to hear back from the legalservice authority at Delhi for
an internship in my first year.
But I was put on wait list andwas supposed to start the next
(47:28):
month.
But then I had this one monthand it was waste.
And you know, as students you'resupposed to have something on
your CV and there's a lot ofpeer pressure yeah so my dad
spoke to a couple of people inhis network and I ended up
interning at a at an IP law firmin my first year and that's
where I fell in love.
So that's how my relationshipwith IP started and I knew right
(47:51):
then and there that IP is whatI wanted to do later on as well.
But I had a lot of advicestreaming in from everybody else
telling me that maybe youshould dibble, dabble into other
fields before you decidesomething, because you're still
too quite early and we had noteven studied that subject
subject.
It's a five-year course, so.
But the heart what's wants whatit wants, right.
(48:13):
So I knew ip is what I wantedto do.
Then I did a master's in ip.
Eventually I started working foran ip law firm.
Then I worked for the indiangovernment for four years under
their national ipr policy scheme, did a lot of good work, like
inculcating IP into the schoolchildren's curriculum,
introducing them to IP at a verynascent stage.
(48:33):
That was very interesting work.
I was part of that.
And then I wanted to tryin-house.
So I worked for an Australianmedia house, helped them sort
out their IP portfolio for theirstock market advisory and tech
business.
And then, uh, before this role,I I was working for, and uh for,
a wind technology company astheir ip council.
(48:55):
So quite the diverse profile.
I've had the government, I'vehad the private, I've had the
corporate.
Speaker 4 (48:59):
So you also now have the accolade of being the first
person to ever squeeze michaeljackson into one of our podcasts
.
So well done, thank you sosimilar questions.
So we've asked your colleaguesrecognizing you're relatively
new to role what's big on eachof your radars at the moment?
What's what's your big priorityin the areas that you work?
Speaker 2 (49:16):
from my side, of course, because I'm based in
Dubai, we are having a greatrelationship with uh UAS
stakeholderEE governments,mainly working with the IP
sector of Ministry of Economy.
So we're developing ourcollaboration on different IP
aspects on the protection sideand the building, the
infrastructure as well asenforcement, and on the other
(49:40):
side, we also have MOU andofficial collaboration with
Saudi Intellectual PropertyAuthority.
So we work closely on differentIP issues, again based on the
Saudi government priorities aswell as UK priorities, and also,
on the other side, workingclosely with the businesses and
also expanding our relationshipwith the businesses in the
(50:01):
region so that we can providebetter protection to UK
businesses in the region.
So for now we are focusing UAEand Saudi, but there are a lot
of issues coming up.
Qatar is in the radar.
Egypt is there.
We had a very recent query inIraq which we didn't even come
like.
It's coming through.
(50:22):
So yeah, so basically for now,uae and Saudi, but we are
eventually expanding to theregion on the policy side,
working with the government andalso on the business side,
working closely with thebusinesses, and we have also a
very good relationship with thelegal community.
They're really helping andsupporting us behind the scene
for better engagement with theauthorities and relevant
(50:45):
stakeholders.
So, yeah, for that, like it'sbeen six months I've been in the
post, so I think by now we havedone a lot of great things and
for sure we'll add morecountries and more, you know,
like our projects.
Speaker 4 (50:58):
So yeah, and what's the score in india?
Speaker 9 (51:02):
so I?
I mean it'll be two months forme.
On 2nd May I'll be two monthsold here.
Just two months, yeah.
But India and UK share a verydeep relationship.
There's a lot of vibrancy whenit comes to the different
industries where India's prettyactive and UK businesses are
very open to investing as wellas building their IP portfolios
(51:25):
in those industries.
So because of that sharedrelationship and plus the
fantastic relationship that theIPO UK as well as the IPO India
has that's that sort of you knowit's been easy for me to just
blend in and just pick up wheremy predecessors are left off.
So it's been pretty smooth.
And as of now, the focus is, uh, enforcement and sensitization
(51:50):
of judiciary and see if thereare certain best practices that
the indian judiciary can seekfrom the uk judiciary and vice
versa.
So those are a couple of things, and then we also have a lot of
interest in ai, of course, youknow the world is talking about
it.
Yeah, exactly yeah.
So uh, we're still trying tofigure out where India is at
(52:11):
vis-a-vis uh IP, because, uh, wedon't have AI defined when it
comes to, like, copyrightedworks and it's more human
centric.
If it's human originated work,then it's, you know, a copyright
, but uh, in of ai, if we'restill trying to figure out what
is going to happen in the cup inthe next couple of months but a
lot of buzz of activity in thatarea then obviously in you know
(52:35):
, when I say india, there's alot of technology and a lot of
tech related works in the make.
So I think what will beinteresting to see is, uh, how
uk businesses can actuallyinvest in the technology sector,
not just in uh relation to ipor ai, but also trying to
understand the deep fake andwhat's all, what's happening
(52:58):
there, everything that's, youknow, like in the bylines of ai.
Speaker 4 (53:02):
So that's about that yeah, so trade would be the
first one, because you're bothworking in areas where the UK is
currently looking to do someinteresting stuff around trade
Obviously a trade agreement withIndia and the Gulf cooperation
countries in terms of your area.
So do you expect to getyourselves involved in trade
much?
Speaker 2 (53:22):
From my side.
When I joined IPO, the IPchapter of the FDA that is under
negotiation with GCC countrieswas closed already, oh wow.
So I didn't have the chance toattend negotiations and
discussions.
But I was lucky.
When I just joined I attended aDeepCon, a white diplomatic
(53:43):
conference and design law treaty, and I went to Riyadh, which
was really fun.
My second week in Riyadh.
It was really interesting.
I mean seeing the discussionsout of WIPO, because I was
always attending WIPO committeesand being in WIPO and then
experiencing WIPO discussions inRiyadh in the region that I
started to work.
It was really interesting.
But on the trade side, likenothing at the moment.
(54:06):
But of course, because the FDAis under a rudder and apparently
UK and UAE they're also UAEwanted a separate one.
So we'll see and I'm hopingthat I've been super optimistic
here that with this FDA theother opportunities would come
up soon as well.
Yeah, so on the government side, no trade at this stage.
(54:28):
But of course, as I mentioned,we are working with the
businesses so that we canreflect the businesses' concerns
to the government and, as Divyamentioned, we are working on
the same issues on theenforcement side, on the AI and
also IP finance.
Ip finance is a big topic forus.
We would like to work and we'rejust, you know, evaluating the
opportunities and the governmentis both ua and saudi are
(54:49):
interested to work on this, soyeah, ip finance.
Yeah, ip backed finance yeah solending on the basis of ip, yes,
okay, yeah and, interestingly,some uae banks have started to
have some because we've got someinteresting products in the uk
that, yeah, I guess you'retalking to colleagues about yeah
(55:11):
, I mean, actually it's my, myfavorite like ip topic.
Now I love it, right, I don'tlike ai, I have to.
You can remove this part, butlike ip finance is like, because
I've been coaching a lot ofsmes and small and medium-sized
businesses, they always have thefinancial issue, especially the
region that I'm working with.
(55:32):
So I think this is a topic thatwould perfectly work with like
well, with, uh, you know, likewith the business interests in
the region okay, so I thinkindia is also in the same
position because we also havethe FTA with the UK.
Speaker 9 (55:46):
In fact, our minister , Mr Piyush Goyal, is already in
London, so that's happening.
So I'm hoping that soon we'llbe able to see and then work on
the IP bit.
But it was closed just before Ijoined, just like Sanas.
Speaker 4 (56:03):
So yeah, yeah.
So thank you both so much forjoining us.
I will say, because you'rerelatively new to role, maybe
you'd come back and have anextended conversation with us we
don't have to be in the samecountry.
We can do this remotely, and wecan.
Speaker 12 (56:17):
I would love to come back to London just for a
podcast but for sure yeah, butfor sure.
Speaker 5 (56:23):
Yeah, because I but for sure yeah.
Speaker 9 (56:23):
But for sure, yeah, because I think my dog has been
part of several discussionsloudly and I think he knows more
about Section 3D, pat and Satthan the other people.
So yeah, that's a well-educateddog.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (56:38):
Thank you for finishing the podcast on such an
upbeat note for us.
Thank you.
Thanks all to you.
This has been two IPs in a pod.
Looking at the amazing world ofthe UK's IP attachés.
Speaker 5 (56:46):
We're safe hands.
We are safe hands.
If you've listened to thepodcast and you've enjoyed it.
Speaker 4 (56:50):
Then drop us a little review somewhere so other
people can find the podcast.
Neil, I'll see you on a futurepodcast at some point.
And to all of the attachéswho've?
Shared their time and expertisewith us.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (57:21):
Thank you.
Two hot peas in a.
Two hot peas in a.
Two hot peas in a.
Two hot peas in a.
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