June 20, 2025 • 33 mins
To start off our San Diego Pubcast special, Lee and Gwilym sit down with Vicki Salmon. Vicki never planned on becoming a patent attorney. While preparing for a career as an accountant after studying natural sciences at Cambridge, a chance conversation with a neighbor who happened to be a High Court judge changed everything. "I think you should have a look at patents," he suggested, introducing her to the profession that would become her life's work.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
And so did you think, maybe that did you find that
you tried the patent attorneyclassic prep and pros thing.
Then you tried the solicitorthing and you thought I like the
solicitor thing a bit more, orIf you really want the truth.
Yes, I do.
Of course we do.
You can't handle the truth.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod
and you are listening to apodcast on intellectual property
brought to you by the CharteredInstitute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 4 (00:35):
So, gwendolyn, we've moved away from the conference
centre at Inter and we're in anIrish pub in.
Gaslamp Street.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
It's very cool.
Fifth Avenue, fifth Street.
You're on Fifth Street in theGaslamp District, so we've
brought Fifth Avenue, fifthStreet.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
You're on Fifth Street in the Gaslamp District,
so we've brought the guest inalready, which is something we
don't normally do this early inthe Bants.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
but True, true, but they have the geographical
knowledge that we like yeah,yeah, yeah, no, exactly right
yeah.
I'm fascinated by ketchup guyoutside.
This isn't sat at the table andall he's got is a plate of
ketchup that he's put on hisentire bottle of ketchup plate
and has just secured a newbottle of ketchup, a new full
bottle of ketchup.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
Is that a new one?
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (01:10):
What's he going to do with it?
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
I'm fascinated by that, and yesterday we had Duck
Bike.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Guy.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
Yeah, to be fair, I think that's all bikes.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
He was going past that duck protest Duck protest.
Quacking every time he wentpast.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
It was quite funny.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
What's he doing with the ketchup?
Just ignore, let's focus on the.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
Just ignore ketchup guys.
Yeah Okay, podcast, podcast.
Yeah, right, so we're in a pub,irish pub, and not that that
matters, but that will helppeople understand why there's a
bit of Irish music in thebackground.
And we've got a really specialguest with us today Super
special, super specialSpecialist, as special as a
special guest can possibly be.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
We have Vicky Salmon, council member and SIPA alumni
Soul of SIPA, soul of SIPA, soulof SIPA Soul of SIPA.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah, you two are so full of it.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
Yeah, we are, sadly, we are hey.
Vicky, welcome to.
Yeah, we are, sadly, we are hey.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Vicky.
Welcome to the podcast, hi Lou.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Ah, it's so good, so good to have you on.
So most people know you,obviously, but few people will
know backstory and stuff likethat.
So can you regale us with howyou come to be where you are?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Entirely by accident.
Nobody gets anywhere.
They intend to be on purpose.
It's just you just keep turningcorners and being unable to say
no oh, yeah, and I think oneneeds to learn how to say no,
and I haven't found that one outyet.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
Okay, yeah, fair enough, fair enough.
So why the law?
Why ip?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
well, I, I was going to be an accountant, it's funny
to understand that I was goingto be an accountant and then a
couple of things happened justwhile I was sorting out careers
from university.
I was a natural scientist atCambridge and one uncle said
you've done all this science,why do you want to leave it
(02:55):
behind and do finance?
And then a neighbor whohappened to be a high court
judge said I think you shouldhave a look at patents.
I wouldn't recommend the patentbar, but being a patent
attorney is nice.
Come and meet my friend, mrStanley Dane.
So I duly went along and met MrDane and then met some other
people, including Nigel Franklinat Forrester Ketley many years
(03:18):
ago, and Nigel was soenthusiastic about patents and I
thought do you know what, if Ican be an accountant anytime,
but actually it's quite trickygetting into the patent
profession and making a go of it.
So if I don't have a go now,I'll never get another
opportunity.
So I took the opportunity andjoined New Bernalus and I was
(03:39):
there for about five years andwaiting for my European exam
results, having got my Britishones.
It was am I in the right job?
I want to make a positivedecision to stay here and the
next thing I knew I had a joboffer from Stevenson Harwood to
re-qualify as a lawyer.
So I moved there, qualified asa lawyer then, um Ludie Lochner,
(04:02):
who'd been in charge of thedepartment, had left, tibor had
joined, so I was working withthe great Tibor Gold and Nick
Headley.
Speaker 4 (04:09):
Yeah, we've had Tibor on a podcast.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
And then I went from there to Eversheds, was there
for a while, then, just beforethe Clementi reforms kicked in,
I moved back into Pat Natonipractice and about three and a
half years ago we set up the newpractice, impact IP.
So we've been going for justover three and a half years and
I love it.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
So you're not unique, but you're Two years.
Okay, you are unique but youare one of the few that have
that sort of mix of both being apatent attorney and solicitor.
What do you see yourself asfirst and foremost, or do you?
Do you not even look at it thatway?
Speaker 2 (04:49):
I.
I look at it as having thatmixed bag, because actually it's
really helpful to have bothskills together yeah and um and
therefore to be um able to do,to look at both the commercial
side and the practice side.
So I think I'm probably asolicitor more than a patent
attorney yeah, it makes sense.
I'm not going to draft patentsor do the main arguments at the
(05:10):
EPO.
If you've got complicated oralproceedings I'll probably bring
my litigation skills in, butmost of it I've got better
skilled colleagues to do thatpart and I'll do the commercial
and the portfolio management andthe trademarks and things like
that.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
Graham, did you never think about being a solicitor?
Speaker 1 (05:28):
I didn't really know what I was getting into when I
started seeing how much otherlaw there was on top of IP.
It just got a bit scarygenerally.
Hence the uniqueness of peoplelike Vicky actually, and that's
a question I had.
So that means you're very mucha team player, so you'll work
with I didn't realize you don'tdo the drafting and stuff, but
so you'll work with yourdrafters.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
I'll work with my drafters, yeah, so we we tend to
operate on a fairly team basisanyway.
So you'll have the partnersoverseeing and the attorneys
doing the work, or maybe thetrainees mucking in too and just
trying to get the work done atthe right level, with the that
partner oversight and extra bitcoming in where you need it so
(06:11):
did you think maybe that did youfind that you tried the patent
attorney classic prep and prosthing.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Then you tried this thing and you thought I like
this to think a bit more.
Or if you really want the truth, yes, I do, of course we do.
You can't handle the truth.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Though drafting patent claims four or five years
into the profession wasabsolutely terrifying, the idea
that somehow I had to come upwith this ideal language which
was going to catch unseeninfringements in 15 years' time,
while still being novel overthings I'd never heard of it,
(06:46):
was way too scary.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
I did put up my own job.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Yeah, but maybe I just was too much of a not in
the quite the right job at theright time and I think other
people have better technologyskills and are better able to do
that.
And I would prefer someone gaveme a piece of paper where
they'd already written down theclaims and then I'll critique it
and go well, I think we couldjust do that, and I would prefer
someone gave me a piece ofpaper where they'd already
written down, yeah, the claimsand then I'll critique it and go
well, I think we could just dothis and it'll be a bit better
(07:10):
if we do that.
But that blank sheet of paperis not really my skill forte, so
I take my hat off to thedrafting patent attorneys so
setting up your own practice,yeah that's scary, isn't it?
if I had done it entirely of myown.
Yes, it would be very, veryscary, but I had a business
partner and we had a good clientbase and some attorneys to come
into the practice and the adminpart of setting up the practice
(07:34):
.
That was kind of easy becausewhile we'd been in practice in
the previous firm all the lawchanges had happened so I'd done
all the LLP applications.
Filling all the documents infor IPREG was just kind of just
get on with it really and Ithink the legal training helped.
So I think what we can put backinto the Small Business
(07:57):
Practice Committee to help themand help new people set up their
practices is just reallyimportant.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
So part of your story , though, is being this SIPA,
through and through councilmember volunteer extraordinaire.
Can you remember when youjoined council?
Speaker 2 (08:12):
no, I can't remember which year I joined council.
I'm hoping you're going to beable to dig that out for me.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
I'll try my best, but some of some of the SIPA
archives are produced on archaicsoftware like wordStar and
stuff like that and no longerreadable by any programme.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
WordStar.
I love WordStar, who recruitedyou Tybalt yeah, same as me,
tybalt Gold he recruited me tocouncil.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
At the time I'd started out in the uniformals.
My first year with New Bernalishad been in their Bristol
office.
Then I came up to London andstarted attending lectures.
As opposed to listening to themon tape, I don't know if
anybody remembers that stuff?
Speaker 4 (08:52):
I've heard the story that they were ferried around
the country in audio cassette.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
They were, and it took ages because people used to
stack them up before theypassed them on.
So when it eventually reached apoint where you could actually
just download them and youdidn't get them three years too
late.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
Oh the good old days.
How did?
Speaker 2 (09:08):
they do that.
How did they get the tapesaround?
You just put them in anenvelope and you posted them to
the next person on the list.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
I was going to be a doe who actually listened and
fired that one, yeah, listened,so they were the only legal use
ever, tape to tape, the onlylegal use ever found, possibly
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
And then I became the informal's treasurer at a time
when they were taking quitemoney in for running the
tutorials, yeah, yeah, Thensomebody else wanted to take
over as treasurer.
So I then took over thetutorials and I ran them for two
or three years, passed them on,and while I was doing that Bob
Farwell recruited me to theeducation committee.
(09:52):
So by the time I was workingwith Tibor at Stevenson Harwood
I was already on Edcom as aninformals rep, and then, I
suppose in my own right, becauseI must have qualified by then.
And then he said I think youshould stand for council.
So Bruce Alexander then got meto take over the social and
program committee and with itCongress.
(10:15):
I went oh well, Bruce, youcould run Congress on your own.
I can't, I need a committee.
So we set up the CongressSteering Committee in order to
get input from across theprofession as to what would be a
good subject and how to getpeople in from all sorts of
jurisdictions.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Were you involved in Congress from the very outset?
Speaker 2 (10:36):
No, bruce had run it entirely on his own from the
very beginning.
I thought it was Tibble thatstarted.
It was it, was it not?
Well, maybe I've got that wrongno, no, I was just wondering.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
I can imagine bruce then ran it.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Yeah, okay interesting so I I don't know
what it was before bruce ran it,but I then took it on and ran
it for a few years and thenmoved it on to others, which was
a great relief.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
I've been knocking around seeper for 13 years and
you've been a council stalwartand all of that time.
Yeah, as Gwilym has as wellyeah, she used to turn up though
.
Yeah, to be fair, you didn'tused to turn up much in in the
early days.
You're pretty good now.
You're pretty good now what'sit been like being a council
member?
You've seen, I mean, your roleschanged over time.
In terms of your professionalrole, uh, you've seen council
(11:17):
change over that time.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
I think, because I spent quite a lot of time in a
solicitor's firm, being part ofcouncil became really important
to me and kind of almost part ofmy identity in a way yeah, I
get that.
And I think it's because in asolicitor's firm, to stay
connected to being a patentattorney and to the law changes
and everything else, just comingto council and getting the
(11:39):
papers, the information you getit's just been phenomenal just
to keep me abreast of things andenable me to do my job, because
at one point at Eversheds theyran a job to critique a draft
patent law which was coming infor another country and I
wouldn't have been able to do ithad I not been, or with all the
education I got through beingon council and understanding
(12:01):
about lobbying and things.
Speaker 4 (12:03):
That's really interesting, isn't it?
Because what you're talkingabout there is council not just
being a role where you aregiving something to SEPA in
terms of its governance and itsoversight and its control, but
where you get back in terms ofyour own professional
development.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
I've always felt I got back as well.
So I think that's why I'vealways been able to carry on
doing things, because I'vealways felt I got something out
of it as well yeah, you don'trealize how much as well, do you
?
Speaker 1 (12:24):
you?
Know all the acronyms, you knowyeah, who does what and who to
talk to, and all these thingsthat I think if you don't sit on
council one and maybe one ofthe committees, it's quite
surprising.
I remember joining PATCOM andbeing amazed.
I just thought what are theseacronyms, what are all these
organizations?
What are we up to here?
As I loved it the moment I gotinvolved.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
I love that engagement and the information
you get yeah, I think thepatents committee has been a
really important committee to bepart of, and particularly
because they always go throughthe what's coming up in uk law
and then european law and thenon the international scene and
particularly what's happening inthe US and where you want to
lobby and deal with things thatare changing.
(13:03):
Yeah, yeah.
So you know, but after doingsocial and programme, I then
took over the litigationcommittee when Michael Harrison
became president and I thenrealised, looking back, that I'd
been on that committee, sharingit, for 13 years.
No-one should be allowed to dothat many years.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
Oh, can I leave now yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
No, you can't leave, but I don't think you should
chair a committee for that long.
I think we ought to move themon a little bit more regularly.
But it took me.
I went through all the UPClobbying and the drafting and
what we could change and what wecouldn't change, which was all
very interesting.
And in the middle middle of this, we were sitting in a council
(13:45):
meeting looking at the legalservices act, for some reason,
which I hadn't been payingproper attention to, and I
flipped over and went hold on,they've revoked our rights to
represent in court.
Oh, my goodness, we're in atransitional period.
We need a new regime beforethis transitional period ends.
So I went down to IPREG andthey went oh, I don't think
(14:06):
they've got capacity for that.
And I went back to the officewhere one of my partners was an
IPREG council member, a boardmember, and he went.
I didn't know that needed to bedone.
I know how to do it and I wentwell, this needs to be done and
I don't know how to do it.
So we got a consultationprocess and a new set of
regulations.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
It's also an indication of how having experts
involved in this on the counciland everything can make it that
you can spot things that otherpeople wouldn't spot, which is
really important.
Actually A bit like CPTPP.
A bit like CPTPP.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
But you need that diversity of experience and
vision and understanding, don'tyou so?
For me, in terms of where weare now with SEPA Council,
that's one of the great thingsabout it is we've got a real
richness in diversity on Council, and it does mean that often we
spot stuff probably far morequickly than we might have done
in the past.
So you've seen SEPA changequite a lot.
(14:59):
I'm hoping mainly for thebetter.
I'm not trying to blow atrumpet here, but you know when
I started, we had a tiny, tinyoffice staff.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
I think there was Marion and Mick and Di Burridge
and maybe one or two others, andnow we've and therefore quite a
lot had to be done by themembership.
Yeah, and I think we have grownand developed the Institute
enormously.
I think there's much moresupport, much more is done by a
(15:30):
membership team which isbrilliant because it just means
there's more continuity.
You don't have to have membersall the time trying to decide
what to do next and finding thattime.
But I also think that all thelobbying that's happened
recently in the cctpp has justhelped us to get to a more
professional place and to bemore aware of our own influence
and what we can achieve when weset out to do things, and I
(15:53):
think that's a great stepforward but having grown the
organization.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
So we now have 15, 16 staff, 27 committees, council
meeting monthly, when you'vewhich, for an organisation of
super membership size, is a faireffort.
It's a decent sized business.
That means that you need tofocus on governance.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Oh, my goodness, you're, good.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
This is way too heavy .
How smooth was that.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
Are you going to IGC?
I'm going to InternalGovernance Committee, IGC.
Can I make?
A comment.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, just quickly.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Because I think what's interesting is that the
profession's grown, yeah, andSEPA's grown, and SEPA can grow
because the profession's bigger,so the funds are there.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
It's a virtuous circle.
I can out who's driving it.
I know in the end theprofession is bringing the work
in to make it happen.
But if it weren't for SEPA, Idon't think we'd be in such a
strong position.
So the growth of theorganisation is, I think, part
of it's because it's done such agood job for the profession.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yeah, but that's the profession doing a good job for
itself.
It's the volunteers coming into give their time on council
and give their time oncommittees because it matters to
their firms and it matters toother firms and I think we're
really generous with each otherin terms of how we support each
other in a profession and how weget together.
(17:11):
We've always had strongeducation.
You know the old transactionsof the institute and the
educational lectures that usedto be given and moving that into
a webinar base and on.
I think that we continue tolook at what are likely to be
existential threats to ourprofession as a whole, with all
(17:32):
of us feeding into it.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
You know you talk to the managing partners, you talk
to the heads of department andhow much worthwhile it is for
people to put into that lobbyingprocess so that we're looking
after each other and we'relooking after ourselves yeah, so
you would have heard me saythis a number of times and I
know in that sense it'sanecdotal, but I I obviously
exist in a network of chiefexecs of other membership
(17:56):
associations and I know so thatfor them there are there are
sort of like three hardyperennials when it comes to
running an associationrecruitment yeah well, it's not
something we sleep over, becausewe're an industry, an ecosystem
whereby it's understood that ifyou come into the system, you
become a member of CP, youbecome a student member of CIPA.
(18:16):
it's sort of like ingrained inthat way.
Retention so we retain about97.3%, 4% of members each year
and we only really lose thembecause they take retirement and
decide to not continue theirmembership.
Very few actually do that, orthey die and patent attorneys
live to a ripe old age is myexperience.
And then membership engagementand I've told you often that you
(18:38):
know most of my peers wouldgive an arm or a leg for the
sort of membership engagement.
We have 27 committees, 200, 300people regularly giving their
time to, to see to in that way,and I've always thought that's
quite extraordinary and you'rean example of that, particularly
on internal governance, whereyou know maybe not.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
I'm so tempted to distract you again from the igc
thing.
I'm not going to.
No, I'm not tempted to distractyou again from the IGC thing.
Go on then.
No, I'm not going to no.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
No, please do, because you've distracted me
already.
Let's do IGC.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
No, you've distracted me, I was actually going to
chuck in one more.
Sorry, Nick, no, go on.
One of the comments there isthat again, that engagement is
because we know that theSeeker's doing good things and
that virtual circle continues.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
Yeah, we get stuff done.
So I can only this isn't apodcast about me, but I can only
get stuff done because I've gotaround me a bunch of really
engaged I want to say seniormembers, but not in the sort of
sense that they are getting onin years.
Some of us are but, yeah, butare at the top of their game.
Yeah, so I can only get donewhat I get done because of that
(19:39):
volunteer infrastructure aroundme, and that's again something
else that any of my, the peoplethat I work with in that, in
that membership space, would umgive anything for.
Uh, what we have, what we have,is amazing.
You evidence that in the workthat you do on internal
governance.
So why?
Why was igc something that yougravitated towards?
Because it's Because it's not anatural.
(20:00):
Most patent attorneys probablyaren't at home doing that kind
of really heavy lifting aroundgovernance, are they?
Speaker 2 (20:07):
We used to have a Finance and House Committee.
We did yeah.
And somebody decided that itshould be reinvented as an
Internal Governance Committee.
Oh, that was you, was it, thatwas me?
Yeah.
And at the time that thingswere being put forward, you
asked for various members ofcouncil to put themselves up for
election, and I looked at whatwas on offer and I actually
(20:28):
wanted to learn about governance.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
I looked at the list of skills you wanted and I felt
these are the ones I can offerand take, but these are the ones
I don't have and I would liketo acquire, Like to develop.
Speaker 4 (20:39):
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
And actually governance was one of the ones I
wanted to acquire, and we didhave some early governance
training, but it's, I think,it's time to redo that um, and
we've been working towards thatnow so that we've have started
some new governance it's beenreally good I've done my
sessions.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
It's really, she's really great, isn't she?
Speaker 2 (20:55):
she really gets you to think about things.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
I take your point there about also, because we've
got governance considerations inour firm.
I feel like I know a decentamount, but I've learned from
IGC and I've learned from thattraining as well, actually and
brought stuff back, so it'sreally useful.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
And I think that we'll hopefully, once the
governance training is finishedfor IGC, it'll be offered to
council and to committee chairs.
But there might be wider demand.
Let's council and to committeechairs, but there might be wider
demand.
Let's see if actually firmswould like some more governance
training for themselves in termsof how they manage things.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
It was obvious to me when I did training we did it
together, becky it was obviousto me there was an absolute weed
across to governing c bank,governing any firm.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Yeah, there are core principles around good
governance to stand up yeah,yeah, and I think that, because
I trained as a solicitor, therewas a time post-qualification, I
had to do a more advanced legalcourse and that was about how
do you look at risk, how do youdeal with insurance, where are
you going with, um, all sorts ofthings which are hitting us now
(21:55):
, like sanctions regulation.
Yeah, how do you run a businessproperly, how do you manage
your employees?
And I think there's all sortsof things about running a
business which, historically, wemight have just fallen into by
mistake, but I think a littlebit more governance would never
go amiss in terms of how you runan organisation.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
Can I ask you a really unfair question?
You're going to ask it anyway,because I love the story that
you've told.
I love the way you describedthe way that you came into
council in those early daysquite early in your career
actually and how you've keptthat fresh throughout your time
on council.
So someone maybe where you werewhen you first came onto
council might be looking atcouncil thinking well, it's not
(22:35):
for me, I'm early in my career,I need to be fee earning, I need
, I need to be doing this, Ineed to be doing that.
What would you say to them toencourage them to at least think
about it?
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Oh, I'd say start with a committee.
I'd actually say start with acommittee.
There's going to be somethingthat you're passionate about,
somewhere.
You would like to volunteer,something that you care about.
I mean, when I was runningsocial and programme committee,
people came along and said Ithink we would really like to
have I don't know a dragon boatrace.
And I went great.
(23:03):
Well, if you'd like a dragonboat race, you clearly know what
you want.
You go organise it, because weare an organisation of
volunteers.
So you need someone to say I'dlike to get this done.
You don't always needpermission, you need sensible
financial planning around it.
So my view has frequently beenokay, I've been around long
enough.
If I want something to happen,I'll make it happen.
(23:26):
Beg for forgiveness afterwards,yeah, so if there's something
you care about you know youreally want to know about
computer law, or you want to getinvolved in dei, or you you
want to learn about some otherthings just find the committee
that is doing what you want todo, or come and tell us we need
a new committee, and then youcan do what you care about.
(23:48):
I think the next trick is tolearn when to say no.
I haven't always known when tosay no to you, lee, because when
I finished doing LitCom yousaid I should do Education
Committee.
We got it all going, but it'smuch better with Debbie.
You know she's the right personto do that now.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
You're quite convincing.
You are convincing.
That'll be why I'm on sec.
I think yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
So sometimes it's learning when to say no, so that
you do what you can do.
But I think if you've done somecommittees or you're just
interested in being on council,then I think you should come,
stand up, come and find out whatit's about.
Come and talk to a councilmember about what to do.
You don't need to wait to beinvited.
I think people who want tocontribute should be able to
(24:36):
come forward, because that helpsthe diversity.
We won't see diversity when wedon't come across it, and so you
can't always invite people inand get that huge diversity.
I think it helps when peoplefeel confident to say actually.
I'd like to come along and dosome of this too.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
There's an interesting point there.
We've talked about recruitmenta couple of times and quite
often it is somebody you've met,worked with colleagues,
somebody you've come across, andyou talk them into it and they
come and join Not you, sorry,all of us we all recruit.
Which is really good, but itdoes worry me a little bit that
that's still slightlyself-selecting, isn't it?
But I don't know how to breakthat, because it is difficult, I
(25:12):
think, sometimes to withoutthat personal touch.
How do you bring someone in?
I don't know, apart fromthrough podcasts.
Speaker 4 (25:19):
But it's interesting.
So a comment was made to me afew weeks back about how council
needs to change to move on.
So I had a little look back andI just took a five-year window
and there are less than half ofcouncil members now who were on
council five years ago.
So we're getting that movementin council.
We're seeing career youngpeople come on to council and
(25:40):
we're seeing career young people, yeah, come on, come on to come
on to council.
And we're seeing, I think, more, more diverse representation of
the members coming on tocouncil.
But within that you don't wantto lose institutional knowledge.
That, I think, is always thedanger for a membership
association is if you alwaysstrive for kind of churn and
change, you know, and I thinkthe thing that both of you bring
(26:01):
now this isn't about positive,stroking you unnecessarily and
stuff like that, but both of youbring that real depth of
institutional knowledge that Iwould struggle to do my job
without.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Okay, thank you thank you, but I think it's important
that you have that mix yeah youknow, there's always going to
be a few people who've been oncouncil for a long time, but you
do need to find a way of nothaving a complete council made
of people who've been on councilfor a long time, because then
you don't get the variety, and Ithink we're getting a great mix
at the moment.
Speaker 4 (26:32):
So I remember my first council meeting so
probably March 2012 in OldSeeper, yeah, when we were in
Chancellery Lane, yep whenpeople would stand up from the
council table and walk to what Iconsider to be a dock to
present their paper.
So they would go up into thedais to present their paper, and
it was very formal.
(26:52):
It was very kind of rigid.
There's nothing wrong with that, but it feels like we're in a
different place now.
It feels like it's there was alittle bit wrong with it.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Come on, I mean, you can have overwhelmed by
procedure.
I think that's part of theproblem.
It was quite unattractive topeople to come into it.
That was also quitenerve-wracking.
So I think the move and it alsonecessarily wasn't very it
wasn't necessarily thateffective.
Yeah, yeah, when the process isthat strong, you're not
necessarily actually achievingwhat you need to achieve.
(27:22):
So you've been very charitable.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
I think it's good that we've moved on from that
the president used to sit up onthe days with the onsec and I
think I've never had that.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
I retract everything.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
I just said by the time you became the onsec, I
think we'd moved into the newbuilding and we didn't need to
sit the onsecsac up on.
The on-sac used to take theminutes.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Oh yes, Hang on.
Okay, no, I'm very happy withchange.
I embrace change.
I embrace change.
Speaker 4 (27:50):
So we're at Inter or we're in San Diego.
We're not at Inter at themoment, we're in a pub, but
we're close enough.
Why is Inter important for you?
V?
Speaker 2 (27:56):
I think that Inter is important because it is one of
the biggest IP events of theyear and in order to do my job,
we need to be able to provideservices for our clients around
the world, so I need to be ableto send instructions out to
(28:17):
different jurisdictions, and weare a people business.
Yeah yeah, relationships arereally important and I've been
coming here on and off for about25 years in all the different
countries and maybe not all ofthe countries they've been to,
but lots of different US citiesand some European cities, and I
think that it's important notonly to come and see clients and
(28:38):
US attorneys and Australianattorneys and others you may do
work for in the UK and in Europe, but also to make sure that
you're talking about what theydo for your clients as well,
because and therefore, eventhough it's allegedly a
trademark conference I've alwaysfound pitting people here.
No, always.
There have always been patentpeople.
Speaker 4 (28:58):
And we've got the patent track.
Now there is.
There is no patent element forthe program yeah, but it's.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
There's always been patent people here.
I mean, I'm a patent person, so, and I've been coming for quite
a while and have always foundother patent attorneys.
After all, our firms do both.
We do patents and trademarks.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Yeah and it's only going to grow.
I think I've said a couple oftimes, but I think it's boiling
down to a few massiveconferences and it just saves
you travelling around the world.
It's probably good for theenvironment.
A few less flights, you'regoing to see everybody in one
place.
That's not necessarily all badand next week, great for us
obviously.
Speaker 4 (29:37):
Well, vicky, thank you so much for coming on and
sharing your time with us.
We've not been able to do thismuch while we've been at inter,
because we like to.
When we do this podcastremotely, we try and end on some
kind of tangent or close aquestion.
Yeah, yeah, it's all aboutketchup guy finish him off, but
yeah we can't talk about ketchup, right?
well, he's gone, but I do have alittle closer, if you'll
indulge me, of course, if that'sokay.
So I know that both of you mixbusiness and pleasure.
(29:58):
Yeah, there are bits of yoursocial personality that blend
with your professionalpersonality.
So, gwyneth, what do you liketo do socially with the people
that you know professionally?
Speaker 1 (30:14):
It's definitely this kind of travel thing.
Yeah, and so you know we've metup already a couple of times
here outside the podcastingBumped into.
Vicky brought him to you lastnight when we were watching the
duck protest.
Thank you for joining us onthat.
I think it's that.
It's that and exploringsomewhere a bit new.
You know we're working, we areout here, we're out here for
sleep at the moment, and that'sreally good.
But to do it in a way that'sentertaining as well.
Speaker 4 (30:44):
Why?
Speaker 1 (30:44):
not, and I think I'm mixing business and pleasure.
I don't think it's much of adistinction.
If you get it right, yeah,that's a good thing.
You gotta get your head down,you gotta work really hard
sometimes, but it's my clientsame thing.
I don't know about you, buthe's asking you.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
He's asking you.
Yeah, it's your time now.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Well, it's about that relationship building.
You know, you, you it's apeople business.
So going and having lunch witha us attorney that you are do on
a regular basis.
You catch up, you hear howtheir children are doing, you
hear how work's going on, youhear how life's going, you talk
a bit about some clients and andthe questions they've got.
(31:12):
It's just part of thatfriendship and the relationship
and the fact that you're goingto keep meeting them yes, I've
got two, so the first isprobably an extension of that.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
So I like the fact that we can have a really heavy,
perhaps detailed, at timeschallenging council meeting that
might go on beyond the closeand yeah, and then we can, we'll
cross the road.
It doesn't have to be a drink orwhatever, but we that's we tend
to do that and thoseconversations can continue and
sometimes we'll be talking aboutcontrasting stuff and sometimes
(31:42):
we're talking about sort ofstuff that we're aligned on.
But I just like the fact thatwe have that dynamic outside of
the immediacy of governance andthe like where we can continue
those conversations, and thatcan solve problems too.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Those relationships again can solve problems.
Speaker 4 (31:54):
I also like the fact that we can sometimes really
good fun stuff.
So last year we did uh, theinformals had the football
tournament and we had a littlestaff team in that and I went
and played in goal.
Um, and I was the only personwho played every single minute
of every single match.
I know, vicky, you do your golfyeah, I enjoy the golf.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
I don't get to pags as much as I'd like and there's
actually.
There's a golf tournament atinter which I have yet to make
sure that I come part of.
I'm now on the, so maybe I'llfind out next year.
Are you good?
At golf Sort of mid-ranking.
Speaker 4 (32:21):
I don't understand golf.
What does even mid-ranking mean?
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Well, my number is about 14.3.
If that helps you.
Speaker 4 (32:26):
It's about 14.3.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Yeah, well, it goes up and down.
It goes up and down every time.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
So that is such a pattern of totally specific
answers.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
It's about 14.29 and 14.31.
It only means you get on thisgolf course, you have 16 shots,
and you get on that golf course,you have 17 shots.
Thank you so much for coming on, Gwilym.
Speaker 4 (32:50):
thanks for being the absolute amazing host that you
always are and not being toodistracted by Ketchup man.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
I'm sorry I got on your nerves there it did
slightly get on my nerves.
I suppose it's blame him.
There's a lot of ketchup goingdown there.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
Well him, there's a lot of ketchup going down and um
well, it's on to the next one.
Boom, outro Music.
And so did you think, maybe that did you find that
you tried the patent attorneyclassic prep and pros thing.
Then you tried the solicitorthing and you thought I like the
solicitor thing a bit more, orIf you really want the truth.
Yes, I do.
Of course we do.
You can't handle the truth.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod
and you are listening to apodcast on intellectual property
brought to you by the CharteredInstitute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 4 (00:35):
So, gwendolyn, we've moved away from the conference
centre at Inter and we're in anIrish pub in.
Gaslamp Street.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
It's very cool.
Fifth Avenue, fifth Street.
You're on Fifth Street in theGaslamp District, so we've
brought Fifth Avenue, fifthStreet.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
You're on Fifth Street in the Gaslamp District,
so we've brought the guest inalready, which is something we
don't normally do this early inthe Bants.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
but True, true, but they have the geographical
knowledge that we like yeah,yeah, yeah, no, exactly right
yeah.
I'm fascinated by ketchup guyoutside.
This isn't sat at the table andall he's got is a plate of
ketchup that he's put on hisentire bottle of ketchup plate
and has just secured a newbottle of ketchup, a new full
bottle of ketchup.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
Is that a new one?
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (01:10):
What's he going to do with it?
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
I'm fascinated by that, and yesterday we had Duck
Bike.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Guy.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
Yeah, to be fair, I think that's all bikes.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
He was going past that duck protest Duck protest.
Quacking every time he wentpast.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
It was quite funny.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
What's he doing with the ketchup?
Just ignore, let's focus on the.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
Just ignore ketchup guys.
Yeah Okay, podcast, podcast.
Yeah, right, so we're in a pub,irish pub, and not that that
matters, but that will helppeople understand why there's a
bit of Irish music in thebackground.
And we've got a really specialguest with us today Super
special, super specialSpecialist, as special as a
special guest can possibly be.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
We have Vicky Salmon, council member and SIPA alumni
Soul of SIPA, soul of SIPA, soulof SIPA Soul of SIPA.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah, you two are so full of it.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
Yeah, we are, sadly, we are hey.
Vicky, welcome to.
Yeah, we are, sadly, we are hey.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Vicky.
Welcome to the podcast, hi Lou.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
Ah, it's so good, so good to have you on.
So most people know you,obviously, but few people will
know backstory and stuff likethat.
So can you regale us with howyou come to be where you are?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Entirely by accident.
Nobody gets anywhere.
They intend to be on purpose.
It's just you just keep turningcorners and being unable to say
no oh, yeah, and I think oneneeds to learn how to say no,
and I haven't found that one outyet.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
Okay, yeah, fair enough, fair enough.
So why the law?
Why ip?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
well, I, I was going to be an accountant, it's funny
to understand that I was goingto be an accountant and then a
couple of things happened justwhile I was sorting out careers
from university.
I was a natural scientist atCambridge and one uncle said
you've done all this science,why do you want to leave it
(02:55):
behind and do finance?
And then a neighbor whohappened to be a high court
judge said I think you shouldhave a look at patents.
I wouldn't recommend the patentbar, but being a patent
attorney is nice.
Come and meet my friend, mrStanley Dane.
So I duly went along and met MrDane and then met some other
people, including Nigel Franklinat Forrester Ketley many years
(03:18):
ago, and Nigel was soenthusiastic about patents and I
thought do you know what, if Ican be an accountant anytime,
but actually it's quite trickygetting into the patent
profession and making a go of it.
So if I don't have a go now,I'll never get another
opportunity.
So I took the opportunity andjoined New Bernalus and I was
(03:39):
there for about five years andwaiting for my European exam
results, having got my Britishones.
It was am I in the right job?
I want to make a positivedecision to stay here and the
next thing I knew I had a joboffer from Stevenson Harwood to
re-qualify as a lawyer.
So I moved there, qualified asa lawyer then, um Ludie Lochner,
(04:02):
who'd been in charge of thedepartment, had left, tibor had
joined, so I was working withthe great Tibor Gold and Nick
Headley.
Speaker 4 (04:09):
Yeah, we've had Tibor on a podcast.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
And then I went from there to Eversheds, was there
for a while, then, just beforethe Clementi reforms kicked in,
I moved back into Pat Natonipractice and about three and a
half years ago we set up the newpractice, impact IP.
So we've been going for justover three and a half years and
I love it.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
So you're not unique, but you're Two years.
Okay, you are unique but youare one of the few that have
that sort of mix of both being apatent attorney and solicitor.
What do you see yourself asfirst and foremost, or do you?
Do you not even look at it thatway?
Speaker 2 (04:49):
I.
I look at it as having thatmixed bag, because actually it's
really helpful to have bothskills together yeah and um and
therefore to be um able to do,to look at both the commercial
side and the practice side.
So I think I'm probably asolicitor more than a patent
attorney yeah, it makes sense.
I'm not going to draft patentsor do the main arguments at the
(05:10):
EPO.
If you've got complicated oralproceedings I'll probably bring
my litigation skills in, butmost of it I've got better
skilled colleagues to do thatpart and I'll do the commercial
and the portfolio management andthe trademarks and things like
that.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
Graham, did you never think about being a solicitor?
Speaker 1 (05:28):
I didn't really know what I was getting into when I
started seeing how much otherlaw there was on top of IP.
It just got a bit scarygenerally.
Hence the uniqueness of peoplelike Vicky actually, and that's
a question I had.
So that means you're very mucha team player, so you'll work
with I didn't realize you don'tdo the drafting and stuff, but
so you'll work with yourdrafters.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
I'll work with my drafters, yeah, so we we tend to
operate on a fairly team basisanyway.
So you'll have the partnersoverseeing and the attorneys
doing the work, or maybe thetrainees mucking in too and just
trying to get the work done atthe right level, with the that
partner oversight and extra bitcoming in where you need it so
(06:11):
did you think maybe that did youfind that you tried the patent
attorney classic prep and prosthing.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Then you tried this thing and you thought I like
this to think a bit more.
Or if you really want the truth, yes, I do, of course we do.
You can't handle the truth.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Though drafting patent claims four or five years
into the profession wasabsolutely terrifying, the idea
that somehow I had to come upwith this ideal language which
was going to catch unseeninfringements in 15 years' time,
while still being novel overthings I'd never heard of it,
(06:46):
was way too scary.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
I did put up my own job.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Yeah, but maybe I just was too much of a not in
the quite the right job at theright time and I think other
people have better technologyskills and are better able to do
that.
And I would prefer someone gaveme a piece of paper where
they'd already written down theclaims and then I'll critique it
and go well, I think we couldjust do that, and I would prefer
someone gave me a piece ofpaper where they'd already
written down, yeah, the claimsand then I'll critique it and go
well, I think we could just dothis and it'll be a bit better
(07:10):
if we do that.
But that blank sheet of paperis not really my skill forte, so
I take my hat off to thedrafting patent attorneys so
setting up your own practice,yeah that's scary, isn't it?
if I had done it entirely of myown.
Yes, it would be very, veryscary, but I had a business
partner and we had a good clientbase and some attorneys to come
into the practice and the adminpart of setting up the practice
(07:34):
.
That was kind of easy becausewhile we'd been in practice in
the previous firm all the lawchanges had happened so I'd done
all the LLP applications.
Filling all the documents infor IPREG was just kind of just
get on with it really and Ithink the legal training helped.
So I think what we can put backinto the Small Business
(07:57):
Practice Committee to help themand help new people set up their
practices is just reallyimportant.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
So part of your story , though, is being this SIPA,
through and through councilmember volunteer extraordinaire.
Can you remember when youjoined council?
Speaker 2 (08:12):
no, I can't remember which year I joined council.
I'm hoping you're going to beable to dig that out for me.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
I'll try my best, but some of some of the SIPA
archives are produced on archaicsoftware like wordStar and
stuff like that and no longerreadable by any programme.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
WordStar.
I love WordStar, who recruitedyou Tybalt yeah, same as me,
tybalt Gold he recruited me tocouncil.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
At the time I'd started out in the uniformals.
My first year with New Bernalishad been in their Bristol
office.
Then I came up to London andstarted attending lectures.
As opposed to listening to themon tape, I don't know if
anybody remembers that stuff?
Speaker 4 (08:52):
I've heard the story that they were ferried around
the country in audio cassette.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
They were, and it took ages because people used to
stack them up before theypassed them on.
So when it eventually reached apoint where you could actually
just download them and youdidn't get them three years too
late.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
Oh the good old days.
How did?
Speaker 2 (09:08):
they do that.
How did they get the tapesaround?
You just put them in anenvelope and you posted them to
the next person on the list.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
I was going to be a doe who actually listened and
fired that one, yeah, listened,so they were the only legal use
ever, tape to tape, the onlylegal use ever found, possibly
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
And then I became the informal's treasurer at a time
when they were taking quitemoney in for running the
tutorials, yeah, yeah, Thensomebody else wanted to take
over as treasurer.
So I then took over thetutorials and I ran them for two
or three years, passed them on,and while I was doing that Bob
Farwell recruited me to theeducation committee.
(09:52):
So by the time I was workingwith Tibor at Stevenson Harwood
I was already on Edcom as aninformals rep, and then, I
suppose in my own right, becauseI must have qualified by then.
And then he said I think youshould stand for council.
So Bruce Alexander then got meto take over the social and
program committee and with itCongress.
(10:15):
I went oh well, Bruce, youcould run Congress on your own.
I can't, I need a committee.
So we set up the CongressSteering Committee in order to
get input from across theprofession as to what would be a
good subject and how to getpeople in from all sorts of
jurisdictions.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Were you involved in Congress from the very outset?
Speaker 2 (10:36):
No, bruce had run it entirely on his own from the
very beginning.
I thought it was Tibble thatstarted.
It was it, was it not?
Well, maybe I've got that wrongno, no, I was just wondering.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
I can imagine bruce then ran it.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Yeah, okay interesting so I I don't know
what it was before bruce ran it,but I then took it on and ran
it for a few years and thenmoved it on to others, which was
a great relief.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
I've been knocking around seeper for 13 years and
you've been a council stalwartand all of that time.
Yeah, as Gwilym has as wellyeah, she used to turn up though
.
Yeah, to be fair, you didn'tused to turn up much in in the
early days.
You're pretty good now.
You're pretty good now what'sit been like being a council
member?
You've seen, I mean, your roleschanged over time.
In terms of your professionalrole, uh, you've seen council
(11:17):
change over that time.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
I think, because I spent quite a lot of time in a
solicitor's firm, being part ofcouncil became really important
to me and kind of almost part ofmy identity in a way yeah, I
get that.
And I think it's because in asolicitor's firm, to stay
connected to being a patentattorney and to the law changes
and everything else, just comingto council and getting the
(11:39):
papers, the information you getit's just been phenomenal just
to keep me abreast of things andenable me to do my job, because
at one point at Eversheds theyran a job to critique a draft
patent law which was coming infor another country and I
wouldn't have been able to do ithad I not been, or with all the
education I got through beingon council and understanding
(12:01):
about lobbying and things.
Speaker 4 (12:03):
That's really interesting, isn't it?
Because what you're talkingabout there is council not just
being a role where you aregiving something to SEPA in
terms of its governance and itsoversight and its control, but
where you get back in terms ofyour own professional
development.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
I've always felt I got back as well.
So I think that's why I'vealways been able to carry on
doing things, because I'vealways felt I got something out
of it as well yeah, you don'trealize how much as well, do you
?
Speaker 1 (12:24):
you?
Know all the acronyms, you knowyeah, who does what and who to
talk to, and all these thingsthat I think if you don't sit on
council one and maybe one ofthe committees, it's quite
surprising.
I remember joining PATCOM andbeing amazed.
I just thought what are theseacronyms, what are all these
organizations?
What are we up to here?
As I loved it the moment I gotinvolved.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
I love that engagement and the information
you get yeah, I think thepatents committee has been a
really important committee to bepart of, and particularly
because they always go throughthe what's coming up in uk law
and then european law and thenon the international scene and
particularly what's happening inthe US and where you want to
lobby and deal with things thatare changing.
(13:03):
Yeah, yeah.
So you know, but after doingsocial and programme, I then
took over the litigationcommittee when Michael Harrison
became president and I thenrealised, looking back, that I'd
been on that committee, sharingit, for 13 years.
No-one should be allowed to dothat many years.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
Oh, can I leave now yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
No, you can't leave, but I don't think you should
chair a committee for that long.
I think we ought to move themon a little bit more regularly.
But it took me.
I went through all the UPClobbying and the drafting and
what we could change and what wecouldn't change, which was all
very interesting.
And in the middle middle of this, we were sitting in a council
(13:45):
meeting looking at the legalservices act, for some reason,
which I hadn't been payingproper attention to, and I
flipped over and went hold on,they've revoked our rights to
represent in court.
Oh, my goodness, we're in atransitional period.
We need a new regime beforethis transitional period ends.
So I went down to IPREG andthey went oh, I don't think
(14:06):
they've got capacity for that.
And I went back to the officewhere one of my partners was an
IPREG council member, a boardmember, and he went.
I didn't know that needed to bedone.
I know how to do it and I wentwell, this needs to be done and
I don't know how to do it.
So we got a consultationprocess and a new set of
regulations.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
It's also an indication of how having experts
involved in this on the counciland everything can make it that
you can spot things that otherpeople wouldn't spot, which is
really important.
Actually A bit like CPTPP.
A bit like CPTPP.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
But you need that diversity of experience and
vision and understanding, don'tyou so?
For me, in terms of where weare now with SEPA Council,
that's one of the great thingsabout it is we've got a real
richness in diversity on Council, and it does mean that often we
spot stuff probably far morequickly than we might have done
in the past.
So you've seen SEPA changequite a lot.
(14:59):
I'm hoping mainly for thebetter.
I'm not trying to blow atrumpet here, but you know when
I started, we had a tiny, tinyoffice staff.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
I think there was Marion and Mick and Di Burridge
and maybe one or two others, andnow we've and therefore quite a
lot had to be done by themembership.
Yeah, and I think we have grownand developed the Institute
enormously.
I think there's much moresupport, much more is done by a
(15:30):
membership team which isbrilliant because it just means
there's more continuity.
You don't have to have membersall the time trying to decide
what to do next and finding thattime.
But I also think that all thelobbying that's happened
recently in the cctpp has justhelped us to get to a more
professional place and to bemore aware of our own influence
and what we can achieve when weset out to do things, and I
(15:53):
think that's a great stepforward but having grown the
organization.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
So we now have 15, 16 staff, 27 committees, council
meeting monthly, when you'vewhich, for an organisation of
super membership size, is a faireffort.
It's a decent sized business.
That means that you need tofocus on governance.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Oh, my goodness, you're, good.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
This is way too heavy .
How smooth was that.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
Are you going to IGC?
I'm going to InternalGovernance Committee, IGC.
Can I make?
A comment.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, just quickly.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Because I think what's interesting is that the
profession's grown, yeah, andSEPA's grown, and SEPA can grow
because the profession's bigger,so the funds are there.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
It's a virtuous circle.
I can out who's driving it.
I know in the end theprofession is bringing the work
in to make it happen.
But if it weren't for SEPA, Idon't think we'd be in such a
strong position.
So the growth of theorganisation is, I think, part
of it's because it's done such agood job for the profession.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yeah, but that's the profession doing a good job for
itself.
It's the volunteers coming into give their time on council
and give their time oncommittees because it matters to
their firms and it matters toother firms and I think we're
really generous with each otherin terms of how we support each
other in a profession and how weget together.
(17:11):
We've always had strongeducation.
You know the old transactionsof the institute and the
educational lectures that usedto be given and moving that into
a webinar base and on.
I think that we continue tolook at what are likely to be
existential threats to ourprofession as a whole, with all
(17:32):
of us feeding into it.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
You know you talk to the managing partners, you talk
to the heads of department andhow much worthwhile it is for
people to put into that lobbyingprocess so that we're looking
after each other and we'relooking after ourselves yeah, so
you would have heard me saythis a number of times and I
know in that sense it'sanecdotal, but I I obviously
exist in a network of chiefexecs of other membership
(17:56):
associations and I know so thatfor them there are there are
sort of like three hardyperennials when it comes to
running an associationrecruitment yeah well, it's not
something we sleep over, becausewe're an industry, an ecosystem
whereby it's understood that ifyou come into the system, you
become a member of CP, youbecome a student member of CIPA.
(18:16):
it's sort of like ingrained inthat way.
Retention so we retain about97.3%, 4% of members each year
and we only really lose thembecause they take retirement and
decide to not continue theirmembership.
Very few actually do that, orthey die and patent attorneys
live to a ripe old age is myexperience.
And then membership engagementand I've told you often that you
(18:38):
know most of my peers wouldgive an arm or a leg for the
sort of membership engagement.
We have 27 committees, 200, 300people regularly giving their
time to, to see to in that way,and I've always thought that's
quite extraordinary and you'rean example of that, particularly
on internal governance, whereyou know maybe not.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
I'm so tempted to distract you again from the igc
thing.
I'm not going to.
No, I'm not tempted to distractyou again from the IGC thing.
Go on then.
No, I'm not going to no.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
No, please do, because you've distracted me
already.
Let's do IGC.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
No, you've distracted me, I was actually going to
chuck in one more.
Sorry, Nick, no, go on.
One of the comments there isthat again, that engagement is
because we know that theSeeker's doing good things and
that virtual circle continues.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
Yeah, we get stuff done.
So I can only this isn't apodcast about me, but I can only
get stuff done because I've gotaround me a bunch of really
engaged I want to say seniormembers, but not in the sort of
sense that they are getting onin years.
Some of us are but, yeah, butare at the top of their game.
Yeah, so I can only get donewhat I get done because of that
(19:39):
volunteer infrastructure aroundme, and that's again something
else that any of my, the peoplethat I work with in that, in
that membership space, would umgive anything for.
Uh, what we have, what we have,is amazing.
You evidence that in the workthat you do on internal
governance.
So why?
Why was igc something that yougravitated towards?
Because it's Because it's not anatural.
(20:00):
Most patent attorneys probablyaren't at home doing that kind
of really heavy lifting aroundgovernance, are they?
Speaker 2 (20:07):
We used to have a Finance and House Committee.
We did yeah.
And somebody decided that itshould be reinvented as an
Internal Governance Committee.
Oh, that was you, was it, thatwas me?
Yeah.
And at the time that thingswere being put forward, you
asked for various members ofcouncil to put themselves up for
election, and I looked at whatwas on offer and I actually
(20:28):
wanted to learn about governance.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
I looked at the list of skills you wanted and I felt
these are the ones I can offerand take, but these are the ones
I don't have and I would liketo acquire, Like to develop.
Speaker 4 (20:39):
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
And actually governance was one of the ones I
wanted to acquire, and we didhave some early governance
training, but it's, I think,it's time to redo that um, and
we've been working towards thatnow so that we've have started
some new governance it's beenreally good I've done my
sessions.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
It's really, she's really great, isn't she?
Speaker 2 (20:55):
she really gets you to think about things.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
I take your point there about also, because we've
got governance considerations inour firm.
I feel like I know a decentamount, but I've learned from
IGC and I've learned from thattraining as well, actually and
brought stuff back, so it'sreally useful.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
And I think that we'll hopefully, once the
governance training is finishedfor IGC, it'll be offered to
council and to committee chairs.
But there might be wider demand.
Let's council and to committeechairs, but there might be wider
demand.
Let's see if actually firmswould like some more governance
training for themselves in termsof how they manage things.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
It was obvious to me when I did training we did it
together, becky it was obviousto me there was an absolute weed
across to governing c bank,governing any firm.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Yeah, there are core principles around good
governance to stand up yeah,yeah, and I think that, because
I trained as a solicitor, therewas a time post-qualification, I
had to do a more advanced legalcourse and that was about how
do you look at risk, how do youdeal with insurance, where are
you going with, um, all sorts ofthings which are hitting us now
(21:55):
, like sanctions regulation.
Yeah, how do you run a businessproperly, how do you manage
your employees?
And I think there's all sortsof things about running a
business which, historically, wemight have just fallen into by
mistake, but I think a littlebit more governance would never
go amiss in terms of how you runan organisation.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
Can I ask you a really unfair question?
You're going to ask it anyway,because I love the story that
you've told.
I love the way you describedthe way that you came into
council in those early daysquite early in your career
actually and how you've keptthat fresh throughout your time
on council.
So someone maybe where you werewhen you first came onto
council might be looking atcouncil thinking well, it's not
(22:35):
for me, I'm early in my career,I need to be fee earning, I need
, I need to be doing this, Ineed to be doing that.
What would you say to them toencourage them to at least think
about it?
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Oh, I'd say start with a committee.
I'd actually say start with acommittee.
There's going to be somethingthat you're passionate about,
somewhere.
You would like to volunteer,something that you care about.
I mean, when I was runningsocial and programme committee,
people came along and said Ithink we would really like to
have I don't know a dragon boatrace.
And I went great.
(23:03):
Well, if you'd like a dragonboat race, you clearly know what
you want.
You go organise it, because weare an organisation of
volunteers.
So you need someone to say I'dlike to get this done.
You don't always needpermission, you need sensible
financial planning around it.
So my view has frequently beenokay, I've been around long
enough.
If I want something to happen,I'll make it happen.
(23:26):
Beg for forgiveness afterwards,yeah, so if there's something
you care about you know youreally want to know about
computer law, or you want to getinvolved in dei, or you you
want to learn about some otherthings just find the committee
that is doing what you want todo, or come and tell us we need
a new committee, and then youcan do what you care about.
(23:48):
I think the next trick is tolearn when to say no.
I haven't always known when tosay no to you, lee, because when
I finished doing LitCom yousaid I should do Education
Committee.
We got it all going, but it'smuch better with Debbie.
You know she's the right personto do that now.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
You're quite convincing.
You are convincing.
That'll be why I'm on sec.
I think yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
So sometimes it's learning when to say no, so that
you do what you can do.
But I think if you've done somecommittees or you're just
interested in being on council,then I think you should come,
stand up, come and find out whatit's about.
Come and talk to a councilmember about what to do.
You don't need to wait to beinvited.
I think people who want tocontribute should be able to
(24:36):
come forward, because that helpsthe diversity.
We won't see diversity when wedon't come across it, and so you
can't always invite people inand get that huge diversity.
I think it helps when peoplefeel confident to say actually.
I'd like to come along and dosome of this too.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
There's an interesting point there.
We've talked about recruitmenta couple of times and quite
often it is somebody you've met,worked with colleagues,
somebody you've come across, andyou talk them into it and they
come and join Not you, sorry,all of us we all recruit.
Which is really good, but itdoes worry me a little bit that
that's still slightlyself-selecting, isn't it?
But I don't know how to breakthat, because it is difficult, I
(25:12):
think, sometimes to withoutthat personal touch.
How do you bring someone in?
I don't know, apart fromthrough podcasts.
Speaker 4 (25:19):
But it's interesting.
So a comment was made to me afew weeks back about how council
needs to change to move on.
So I had a little look back andI just took a five-year window
and there are less than half ofcouncil members now who were on
council five years ago.
So we're getting that movementin council.
We're seeing career youngpeople come on to council and
(25:40):
we're seeing career young people, yeah, come on, come on to come
on to council.
And we're seeing, I think, more, more diverse representation of
the members coming on tocouncil.
But within that you don't wantto lose institutional knowledge.
That, I think, is always thedanger for a membership
association is if you alwaysstrive for kind of churn and
change, you know, and I thinkthe thing that both of you bring
(26:01):
now this isn't about positive,stroking you unnecessarily and
stuff like that, but both of youbring that real depth of
institutional knowledge that Iwould struggle to do my job
without.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Okay, thank you thank you, but I think it's important
that you have that mix yeah youknow, there's always going to
be a few people who've been oncouncil for a long time, but you
do need to find a way of nothaving a complete council made
of people who've been on councilfor a long time, because then
you don't get the variety, and Ithink we're getting a great mix
at the moment.
Speaker 4 (26:32):
So I remember my first council meeting so
probably March 2012 in OldSeeper, yeah, when we were in
Chancellery Lane, yep whenpeople would stand up from the
council table and walk to what Iconsider to be a dock to
present their paper.
So they would go up into thedais to present their paper, and
it was very formal.
(26:52):
It was very kind of rigid.
There's nothing wrong with that, but it feels like we're in a
different place now.
It feels like it's there was alittle bit wrong with it.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Come on, I mean, you can have overwhelmed by
procedure.
I think that's part of theproblem.
It was quite unattractive topeople to come into it.
That was also quitenerve-wracking.
So I think the move and it alsonecessarily wasn't very it
wasn't necessarily thateffective.
Yeah, yeah, when the process isthat strong, you're not
necessarily actually achievingwhat you need to achieve.
(27:22):
So you've been very charitable.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
I think it's good that we've moved on from that
the president used to sit up onthe days with the onsec and I
think I've never had that.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
I retract everything.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
I just said by the time you became the onsec, I
think we'd moved into the newbuilding and we didn't need to
sit the onsecsac up on.
The on-sac used to take theminutes.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Oh yes, Hang on.
Okay, no, I'm very happy withchange.
I embrace change.
I embrace change.
Speaker 4 (27:50):
So we're at Inter or we're in San Diego.
We're not at Inter at themoment, we're in a pub, but
we're close enough.
Why is Inter important for you?
V?
Speaker 2 (27:56):
I think that Inter is important because it is one of
the biggest IP events of theyear and in order to do my job,
we need to be able to provideservices for our clients around
the world, so I need to be ableto send instructions out to
(28:17):
different jurisdictions, and weare a people business.
Yeah yeah, relationships arereally important and I've been
coming here on and off for about25 years in all the different
countries and maybe not all ofthe countries they've been to,
but lots of different US citiesand some European cities, and I
think that it's important notonly to come and see clients and
(28:38):
US attorneys and Australianattorneys and others you may do
work for in the UK and in Europe, but also to make sure that
you're talking about what theydo for your clients as well,
because and therefore, eventhough it's allegedly a
trademark conference I've alwaysfound pitting people here.
No, always.
There have always been patentpeople.
Speaker 4 (28:58):
And we've got the patent track.
Now there is.
There is no patent element forthe program yeah, but it's.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
There's always been patent people here.
I mean, I'm a patent person, so, and I've been coming for quite
a while and have always foundother patent attorneys.
After all, our firms do both.
We do patents and trademarks.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Yeah and it's only going to grow.
I think I've said a couple oftimes, but I think it's boiling
down to a few massiveconferences and it just saves
you travelling around the world.
It's probably good for theenvironment.
A few less flights, you'regoing to see everybody in one
place.
That's not necessarily all badand next week, great for us
obviously.
Speaker 4 (29:37):
Well, vicky, thank you so much for coming on and
sharing your time with us.
We've not been able to do thismuch while we've been at inter,
because we like to.
When we do this podcastremotely, we try and end on some
kind of tangent or close aquestion.
Yeah, yeah, it's all aboutketchup guy finish him off, but
yeah we can't talk about ketchup, right?
well, he's gone, but I do have alittle closer, if you'll
indulge me, of course, if that'sokay.
So I know that both of you mixbusiness and pleasure.
(29:58):
Yeah, there are bits of yoursocial personality that blend
with your professionalpersonality.
So, gwyneth, what do you liketo do socially with the people
that you know professionally?
Speaker 1 (30:14):
It's definitely this kind of travel thing.
Yeah, and so you know we've metup already a couple of times
here outside the podcastingBumped into.
Vicky brought him to you lastnight when we were watching the
duck protest.
Thank you for joining us onthat.
I think it's that.
It's that and exploringsomewhere a bit new.
You know we're working, we areout here, we're out here for
sleep at the moment, and that'sreally good.
But to do it in a way that'sentertaining as well.
Speaker 4 (30:44):
Why?
Speaker 1 (30:44):
not, and I think I'm mixing business and pleasure.
I don't think it's much of adistinction.
If you get it right, yeah,that's a good thing.
You gotta get your head down,you gotta work really hard
sometimes, but it's my clientsame thing.
I don't know about you, buthe's asking you.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
He's asking you.
Yeah, it's your time now.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Well, it's about that relationship building.
You know, you, you it's apeople business.
So going and having lunch witha us attorney that you are do on
a regular basis.
You catch up, you hear howtheir children are doing, you
hear how work's going on, youhear how life's going, you talk
a bit about some clients and andthe questions they've got.
(31:12):
It's just part of thatfriendship and the relationship
and the fact that you're goingto keep meeting them yes, I've
got two, so the first isprobably an extension of that.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
So I like the fact that we can have a really heavy,
perhaps detailed, at timeschallenging council meeting that
might go on beyond the closeand yeah, and then we can, we'll
cross the road.
It doesn't have to be a drink orwhatever, but we that's we tend
to do that and thoseconversations can continue and
sometimes we'll be talking aboutcontrasting stuff and sometimes
(31:42):
we're talking about sort ofstuff that we're aligned on.
But I just like the fact thatwe have that dynamic outside of
the immediacy of governance andthe like where we can continue
those conversations, and thatcan solve problems too.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Those relationships again can solve problems.
Speaker 4 (31:54):
I also like the fact that we can sometimes really
good fun stuff.
So last year we did uh, theinformals had the football
tournament and we had a littlestaff team in that and I went
and played in goal.
Um, and I was the only personwho played every single minute
of every single match.
I know, vicky, you do your golfyeah, I enjoy the golf.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
I don't get to pags as much as I'd like and there's
actually.
There's a golf tournament atinter which I have yet to make
sure that I come part of.
I'm now on the, so maybe I'llfind out next year.
Are you good?
At golf Sort of mid-ranking.
Speaker 4 (32:21):
I don't understand golf.
What does even mid-ranking mean?
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Well, my number is about 14.3.
If that helps you.
Speaker 4 (32:26):
It's about 14.3.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Yeah, well, it goes up and down.
It goes up and down every time.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
So that is such a pattern of totally specific
answers.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
It's about 14.29 and 14.31.
It only means you get on thisgolf course, you have 16 shots,
and you get on that golf course,you have 17 shots.
Thank you so much for coming on, Gwilym.
Speaker 4 (32:50):
thanks for being the absolute amazing host that you
always are and not being toodistracted by Ketchup man.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
I'm sorry I got on your nerves there it did
slightly get on my nerves.
I suppose it's blame him.
There's a lot of ketchup goingdown there.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
Well him, there's a lot of ketchup going down and um
well, it's on to the next one.
Boom, outro Music.
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