June 23, 2025 • 31 mins
Lee and Gwilym were joined by Michael McLaughlin, Patent Attorney at McLaughlin IP Pte. Ltd., for this INTA Pubcast special. Ever wonder what happens when engineering expertise meets international IP law across multiple continents? Michael's twenty-year journey from electrical engineer to Singapore patent firm founder offers a fascinating glimpse into the possibilities of a global IP career.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Massively.
I remember, I still remember tothis day, you know, flying into
Tinging Airport and there's adriver waiting for me and I came
out of the airport to like afive or a six-way junction and
there's a guy standing in themiddle of this traffic whizzing
left, right, back forth, everywhich direction you can imagine
and a few you couldn't imagineas well.
(00:21):
And there's this guy.
And there's this guy.
Lee Davis and Gwilym Robertsare the two IPs in a pod.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
And you are listening to a podcast on intellectual
property Brought to you by theChartered Institute of Patent
Attorneys.
To our peace in the sea, to ourpeace in the sea.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
So, Gwilym, interesting name you've got
there.
I was quite impressed that wewere having a conversation
earlier on a different podcastand someone immediately said, oh
, is that a Welsh name?
No, it's good, it's a good spot.
It's a good spot, but no onelooked at my badge and saw Davis
and said is that a Welsh name?
Speaker 4 (01:03):
That's true, that's true, yeah, yeah, because you
are.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Welsh, yeah, how do?
Speaker 3 (01:07):
you identify.
No, I do identify more Welshthan I am.
I did one of those DNA testythings Right and was quite
surprised because I came back as79% Welsh.
Is there a gene for Welshness?
There is.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
Yeah, is there a gene for Welshness?
There is, yeah, ah, yeah, yeah,yeah, well, it's more kind of
that.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
you're of that kind of side of the country, Right oh
, I see, and I've got about 10%Scottishness in me and I have no
idea where it comes from,because I don't know anyone in
my family who's ever Scottish atany point in time.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
So back to the name thing.
It was quite impressive wasn'tit in Wales she said she wasn't
born in Wales for the microphone, so where are you from?
Speaker 3 (01:45):
where is your Welshness from Aberystwyth?
Speaker 4 (01:47):
born in Aberystwyth, my dad I think we talked about
this before my dad's fromWrexham.
That's been a long time agothat's from Wrexham which very
topical now and everyone knowswhere they are which is one of
the oddest things ever.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
I was born, in fact, until Gavin and Stacey came
along, because I'm a BarryIslander, yeah that's tricky,
but no, it's all very Celtic.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
We're in an Irish pub , of course.
We are indeed yes, and, aswe're about to find out, we have
a guest who?
Who's also not English?
Who's not English?
I don't think so, but I'd bevery surprised if you suddenly
say you're English.
I'm known as Michael to many,but I'm proud, I think, to be
(02:29):
allowed to call him Mick fromold time's sakes.
But I've known you, mick, fordo we know?
22 years, that's very specificI mean you're looking younger
now than you did then.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
I must have looked really rough before.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
We thought it would be interesting to have you on
years.
I mean, you're looking youngernow than you did then.
I must have looked really roughbefore.
Yeah, no, we thought it'd beinteresting to have you on
because you've done quite aninteresting career and in
particular, you've done kind ofa double continent career.
We don't have that many peoplewho know about Asia the way that
you probably do, so we thoughtwe'd get you along find out
about your history and then hearabout what's happening out east
(03:06):
right now.
Well, if you want to know abouthappening.
I'm the wrong guy.
Ah, you make it happen.
That's what's going on.
Yeah, so as I recall, youdidn't start in patents, is that
right?
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Yeah, no, my degree is engineering electrical
engineering and like a goodelectrical engineer, I went off
to work as one for some time.
Engineering.
And like a good electricalengineer, I went off to work as
one for some time, after someyears in the.
In doing that I thought, okay,it's time for a change.
I had a friend who was a patentattorney straight out of
university talking to him onenight and we'd had some
discussions about patentattorney as a career, as a
(03:38):
profession before and this timeI really I was ready.
I was ready for it this time.
So, yeah, I wrote off to a fewI was ready for it this time so
yeah, I wrote off to a fewplaces.
It was good enough to land atrainee patent attorney ship and
that was yeah, that was 25years ago.
I've been doing this 25 yearsand then, as you say so, I spent
(03:59):
training and qualified inLondon, including time under
this fine gentleman here atKilburn Strode Really Under him,
as in actually that's how weoperate at Kilburn.
Strode Wow.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
Yeah, are you in charge of people?
It's a physical hierarchy.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
This man.
I think it's fair to say thisman hired me you mean he wasn't
it?
Speaker 4 (04:14):
as I recall, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
And so, yeah, I must admit, happy at Kilburn and
Strode.
But a very long story veryshort.
My wife is Chinese originally.
She's been a British citizenmore than 20 years.
We decided for a move back toAsia and something came up in
Singapore and we went for it.
So, yeah, did you meet her inChina?
I did.
I was working before I was asan engineer.
I was in China working as anengineer and I met her there and
, yeah, eventually she came backto the UK.
By this time I was in Londontraining as a patent attorney
(04:46):
and we stayed there five, six,yeah, six or seven years before
deciding to move out to Asia.
Speaker 4 (04:52):
Okay, what was it like?
So that was China in the late90s, early 2000s.
It was a bit of a differentstory from now.
I'm guessing it's verydifferent.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
We were in a city called Tianjin, beijing, near
Beijing, okay, and out then itwas dusty and dirty and polluted
and not particularly fragrant.
It was a fabulous city.
I loved it, I absolutely lovedit.
I mean it was eyes wide open,massive experience, really
massive experience.
Now it's relatively genteel.
(05:19):
We were there about a year and ahalf ago.
Right, I mean, it'sunrecognizable.
Okay, you know so.
All that, you know it still hasdays where the pollution is
pretty bad and other days whereit's just beautifully clear.
Yeah, you know so.
But you know you don't have thedirt and the dust in the same
way that you had.
You know it's.
You know it's become a verysophisticated city.
(05:40):
I want to think about city.
I must be quite a bit cultureshocked, though, going back then
Massively.
I remember, I still remember tothis day, you know, flying into
Tinging Airport and there's adriver waiting for me and I came
out of the airport to like afive or a six way junction and
there's a guy standing in themiddle of the traffic whizzing
left, right, back forth, everywhich direction you can imagine
(06:02):
and a few you couldn't imagineas well.
And there's a guy, there's asecurity, our police officer
standing in the middle of theroad looking utterly
disinterested.
I'm like what's he doing there?
And I realised there's some guysquatting in the middle of the
junction, just hitting the roadwith a big hammer, and I'm
thinking, oh my God, where am I?
(06:22):
And it was just like here we goand you strap yourself in, and
it was.
I must admit, it was just fun,I loved it.
It was fascinating, absolutelyfascinating.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
so, yeah, because I went out to Asia in the 70s to
this similar kind of cultures,like actually quite interested
in this bit of the story,funnily enough.
So things like um, how many,how many kind of Western
engineers were you in a mixedteam?
How did it work?
Speaker 1 (06:45):
so we were.
So I used to work for bigconstruction companies.
They would design and buildpharmaceutical plants, fine
chemical plants, um, and I wasout there for the.
There was a construction of abig pharmaceutical plant going
on in a place called sujo, whichis not you know sort of in the
(07:06):
shanghai vicinity.
Yeah, yeah, it's probably about250 kilometers, but for China
that's in the hood.
But the client in that bigpharma company they decided to
engage a design institute andthey were in Tianjin.
So I was the lead electricalengineer on the job and got
(07:28):
shipped out there with the leadinstrumentation engineer, the
lead mechanical engineer, thelead process engineer and so on.
We went out there kind of tosupervise things.
So there was a few.
There was a big Motorola plantthere, so there was quite a few
Americans.
There was a Spanish not Spanish, swedish pharmaceutical company
out there, so you wouldoccasionally come across a few
(07:48):
of their guys.
But yeah, I mean, westernerswere few and far between and
you'd be walking around thestreets and, frankly, you'd
attract a lot of attention.
Yeah, you know, like littlekids are running up to you and
shout hello, hello.
You shout back to them in helloin chinese.
And if you thought this was thefunniest thing ever it was.
It was really just an amazingexperience.
(08:09):
That's cool.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
I guess I'll move on for a minute, but I've just said
the era, Interestingly, that Iguess was when China was really
trying to reestablish itself asa kind of high end industrial
setup rather than you know, justcheap plastic and stuff.
Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
So I mean, this was like the pharma plant was.
So I went out there on what wassupposed to be a two-year job,
but the part of the project Iwas working on got cancelled
after six months.
So, in effect, I was there justlong enough to get myself a
wife, basically.
But yeah, I mean this is reallylike fine pharmaceutical
processing.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
There was a primary plant and what they continued on
with in the end was a secondaryplant, a packaging plant.
So they ended up they wereshipping in like pharmaceutical
product to be packaged, insteadof manufacturing or making the
pharmaceutical product there aswell.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
Then you head to London.
Then and again, you're notEnglish.
We've established this veryclearly.
Why London?
Why not back up to Scotland?
You're not English, we'veestablished this very clearly
why London?
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Why not back up to Scotland?
Just really following theopportunities, the kind of work
that I did at that time, Ialways seemed to be ending up in
places that I didn't reallywant to be.
I finally managed to go myselfa job in London which I was over
the moon about, and then sixmonths later I just you know
what I want to do somethingdifferent, you know.
So it was then about.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
That time was that, alan, that you'll make yes good
friend Mr MacDougall now of.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Matheson Squire.
I know the name, hello Alan.
So Alan was in my class atuniversity.
We studied electricalengineering together, so, yeah,
he was the one that said whydon't you give this a try?
And so here I am now and yourwife came.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
I love this like.
This is your life, isn't?
Speaker 3 (09:52):
it by the way.
Yeah, we're gonna bring you abook come on out, alan.
Speaker 4 (09:55):
Come on out, alan.
My parents-in-law in the back,so your wife came over.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
She followed you eventually, yeah, um, probably,
oh, a year and a half, two yearslater, something like that she
finally came, finally came overto stay.
She came over to visit once ortwice.
She finally came over to stay.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
She came over to visit once or twice.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
She finally came over to stay and so we eventually
set up.
We had an apartment in Ealing.
It was all very nice little.
I must admit I quite enjoyedliving in Ealing, so coming into
, and it was very convenientcoming into Holborn on the
central line so very, veryconvenient and.
Speaker 4 (10:27):
I remember, obviously you joined, we joined us and we
never looked back.
I mean, that was that's when itreally began the pill in the
throat for sure so leaving whenI left.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
When I left, business took off.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
And then you, then you dropped the bombshell about
heading out to Singapore and Ithink I remember you saying that
your wife she missed Asia.
Or are you missing Asia?
Speaker 1 (10:45):
she had.
She had a good education from agood university in China and
she was finding it difficult tofind somewhere that would
recognise that.
So, yeah, that was part of theplan At that time.
I mean, I must admit I was very, very happy working with these
guys, possibly the happiest I'dever been in a job.
But yeah, I think to move, Ithink it felt I was okay, it
(11:06):
felt like it was time to trysomething back out in Asia again
and Singapore.
What a great place to be as well, I must admit it has been good.
It is a nice place to live howlong?
Have you been there?
This year it will be 20 years,20 years well, I've popped out.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
I visited you out there once or twice.
I'm sure it's such a lovelyplace to go as well.
I don't know because I don'tknow all this, even though I
know you quite well.
I don't know a lot of this.
I'm interested, but obviouslyin Singapore you started working
for a firm that was out there.
It was Lloyd Wise.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
I went for what was Lloyd Wise at the time?
Yeah, I'd never worked for themin the UK, but yeah, it was a
good opportunity and went outthere and yeah, they were very
good to me as well, frankly.
But yeah, then my wife was.
We were expecting her first and, well, as it turned out, only
child.
So it just felt like time to dosomething else and in the end I
(11:55):
needed some flexibility.
I decided I made the veryfoolish choice of setting up on
my own.
First I thought I can do just alittle bit of freelancing work,
but in the end I made thedecision.
You know what?
Let's try as a real patentagency, let's act for our own
(12:16):
domestic clients and do incomingwork for international clients.
And still, to this day, it's asmall firm but frankly, I feel
like I've found my niche there.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
it's a nice little size.
What do you like about it?
I suppose in bigger firms, Imean, there's a lot of
infrastructure in place in thebigger firms, so in the smaller
firm, in the smaller firm.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
I mean having worked in massive corporations before
as an engineer, massivecorporations before as an
engineer, I kind of had enoughof these massive hierarchical
structures, you know, layer uponlayer upon layer of hierarchy.
And that was one of the thingsI liked about moving into the
Patna Tony profession, becauseat the time you're going to a
(13:01):
firm that's a certain size andyou know there's you and above
you is possibly the partnerdirectly you know, that's it.
Yeah, you know, there is nolayer of hierarchy, so that's
part of it.
You know, if there's teambuilding, you know what.
We don't have to plan teambuilding.
Let's go for lunch, you know,yeah, let's go for lunch and a
(13:24):
huge amount of autonomy.
Yes, well, that's right.
So I'm like chief of police, soI can do what I want, basically
when I want as well, and Idon't need to build a business
case to come to Inter in SanDiego.
I don't need to convince abunch of other partners that I
should go.
Or could I do a littlediversion?
Speaker 3 (13:42):
I know you're going to come back.
Yeah, that's fine, because youmentioned Inter.
Why is it so?
Speaker 1 (13:47):
important.
I had kind of forgotten howimportant it was.
I don't do it every year.
I didn't go last year,obviously, we were in Singapore
and that was very good.
We did everything, we had asmall reception and that went
fabulously well.
But before that, the last timeI had been to Inter was Seattle
in 2018.
Okay, I don't go every year,but actually, you know, I have a
(14:10):
bunch of good meetings here.
I mean mostly, almostexclusively, I'm meeting with
people I already know, so it'snot about new business?
Speaker 3 (14:17):
It's not.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
No, you're picking up some useful new contacts.
I'm just checking my email onthe way over here and there's
some new LinkedIn contactrequests dropping in my email
inbox.
You know so.
Request dropping in my emailinbox perfect, you know so, and
interesting looking contacts aswell.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
So but you know so it's a bit of both.
So it's not hard sell, it's notpromo, it's getting here
networking with people and ifyou pick up a few contacts and
stuff, exactly, yeah, yeah,exactly.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
So I mean, I was at a reception earlier and bumped
into someone and within twominutes they said did you does
your firm file in my country?
You know, know, and.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Because we were only saying earlier, weren't we?
We had a little walk aroundearlier and saying how tough it
looks for people that are reallytrying to use it as a platform
for new business.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
Yeah, the networking space is a bit brutal.
I think, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
So yeah, If I didn't make it to Inter, it wouldn't be
the end of the world.
Yeah, you know, but I'mreminded how good it can be and
so far.
So we're what halfway throughhere.
Yeah, Actually, it's beenreally good so far.
It's been really good so far.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
London next year you coming.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Well, I need to think about that, right, I mean
accommodation and getting around.
You can crash at mine.
Speaker 4 (15:30):
That's the deal.
Okay, all these, I'll be there.
I'm in portsmouth, otherwise,it's a given.
It's a given.
Otherwise, yeah, yeah, I go toeverybody.
All the podcasters you'll cometo mind, don't worry, all right
well, there's another connection, then.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
The company I worked for when I was sent out to china
was a construction companybased construction contractor,
based in portsmouth.
Who's that?
It was at the time john brownengineer.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah.
So I was with them for well,they were later taken over by,
uh, caverna, yeah yeah yeah, Iworked for them for four years.
I lived in Farum for four years.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
There's another connection so back to to
Singapore, so you started yourown firm.
It's really interesting.
But you it sounds like you likethat autonomy and the kind of
the yeah, but I mean the yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
There's some with no matter what you do.
There's some give and takeright.
So, for example, you as thechair and a partner at Kilburn,
and so you don't have to doeverything, although I get the
impression at times you thinkyou have to do everything.
Oh he does.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
Yeah, he does, he absolutely does.
I've been told off my opinionfor that as well.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
But yes, you don't have to do everything,
everything and uh, so I mean nowI mean everything the office is
set up.
I mean we use the samedocketing system you use, so
it's incredibly sophisticatedand and when you have these
kinds of systems, when you setit up and it takes very little
maintenance after that.
So so things just happen.
You know things just happen.
But there is ultimately, youknow, when you're setting that
(16:45):
up, everything relies, you know,everything lands on you.
You know, and making sure thingshappen in the way you want them
to happen, you don't just waveyour hand and say something like
you know what I don't like,this process flow.
I have to sit down and think,okay, how do we want it and how
do we make that happen?
So, oh, we need to do a bit ofbusiness development work.
Some of my colleagues are lessexcited at the prospect of doing
(17:09):
that, so that falls to me aswell.
So there's a bit of that.
But on the other hand, we don'thave partners meetings where we
spend three hours debating whatcolour of toaster to buy for
the kitchen.
So there's pros and cons.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
You're making partnership sound so exciting.
No, no.
Speaker 4 (17:27):
We have a very clear-cut set of recommendations
.
Now it's not an openconversation.
Now we've got three colors tochoose from three toasters, to
choose from three toasters tochoose from.
Yeah, but then again you've gotthe number of slices and how
that will stay.
They can get complex, you'reright, but so I know that you I
get that you travel around thatregion fairly regularly as well.
On On business, I mean, youseem to kind of.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
A little bit, yeah, not as much as I could or maybe
even should.
So I went to.
I did a trip to Seoul inSeptember, again just catching
up with people.
I know there's no cold callingand saying can I come and see
you?
You don't know me, but can Icome and see you?
The time I had there was filledwith meeting people I already
(18:13):
know I had been thinking aboutdoing a trip to Japan.
I haven't been there for maybesix years.
Yeah, yeah, I thought aboutdoing that sort of February,
march time, but the way thingsjust fell out it didn't happen.
So maybe Yokohama in Septemberfor the IPPI meeting, I don't
know.
So I used to go up, I used todo.
When I started the firm I wasdoing a lot of.
I was supporting a lot oflitigation in Malaysia patent
(18:36):
litigation- Really, so I was upand down there quite a lot, yeah
, but not for all.
But then as the firm grew andthe practice took off, just
you're approached to do opinionwork and I'm like sorry, I mean
I've got three patent drafts onmy desk, I can't do an opinion
now.
So we haven't really beenclosely, deeply involved in
litigation for some time and theSingapore it feels like we're a
(18:58):
hub generally in Southeast Asia.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
It's a little tiger or whatever, isn't it?
I mean, is that from an IPperspective as well, is
Singapore a fairly significantjurisdiction?
Speaker 1 (19:09):
From an IP perspective as well, is
Singapore a fairly significantjurisdiction.
It depends on who you talk to,I think.
I think many people talk aboutSingapore as being key.
Where we find it is quiteuseful for some clients is if
you get granted patents inSingapore, for example, you can.
Then there's a PPH agreementfor the rest of the ASEAN states
, places like Thailand, malaysia, vietnam, they're in Indonesia.
(19:31):
They're not particularly fast,you know, and okay, there's a
bit of a backlog at theSingapore IP office just now as
well, which makes that a littlebit more difficult.
But from a strategicperspective that can be very
useful, sort of YN, yeah, or itkind of greases the wheels a
little bit in other countriesright, and not with any sort of
negative connotations.
(19:52):
It just makes things a littlebit easier.
I think lots of the patentexaminers in some of the other
Southeast Asian states are quitehappy to look and see what
happens in other jurisdictionsand if you say, okay, we have a
granted patent in Singapore.
Okay, that's good enough for us, right?
So that's one of them.
What you can do is what you cando with trademarks Trademarks.
It's an important jurisdictionfor trademarks because it's such
(20:13):
a big and connected shippingport.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
So you have custom seizures.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Custom seizures.
You can't do that for patents,of course, but you can have it
for trademarks.
I I've seen other peopletalking about Singapore being
strategic, about, you know,because it's the big player in
the region.
Yeah, it gives a sort ofmessage that we're serious about
the region and so we want tofile and have IP protection in
(20:40):
Singapore.
Speaker 4 (20:41):
I did proto-patent litigation in Singapore,
probably in the late 90s, early2000s by aeroplane seats, but I
remember at the time it's apretty cool case.
I remember at the time that thelaw was quite old British, it
was a 49 Act.
Is that still the situation?
Speaker 1 (21:03):
No, they modernised the Act in 95.
I can't remember if it cameinto force in 95 or 96.
Basically, they followed veryclosely the UK Act 77.
And some sections of theSingapore Act still repeat word
for word sections from the UK 77Act, but they still had their
(21:26):
own tweaks.
They had a type of modifiedexamination where you basically
get a granted patent in the UK abunch of jurisdictions like the
UK, epo, us and a few otherplaces as well.
You file a form at IPOS and say, okay, we conform the claims to
those as granted in this otherjurisdiction, let's have a
(21:49):
patent for that.
They call it theself-assessment system.
Yeah, yeah, and even if youused IPOS for substantive
examination, if you had anegative examination report, you
could still pay the grant feeon it and get a granted patent.
I doubt you would.
I imagine you would have somedifficulty enforcing it, but
that's what you could do.
Okay, so they still had itslittle quirks and that was
(22:11):
really down to the fact thatthey didn't have any patent
examiners.
Do you still engage with SEPA?
Not so much lately.
No, not so much.
I remember writing a fewarticles some time back.
I think it was so long ago Ican't even remember what it was
about.
I said so long ago I can't evenremember what it was about.
(22:32):
I did a review of.
I remember I did the previous.
The previous the review of aprevious edition of Terrell
Terrell and the law of patents.
So I did.
I remember doing the bookreview for that, but yeah,
that's uh not how much I thoughtabout trying to like the.
The main, the main.
I think the main liaison SIPAdoes in Singapore is through the
Association of Singapore PatentAttorneys.
Yeah, yeah yeah, I was on theexecutive committee of that for
(22:56):
a while, but it's going backsome time, okay.
So the other one I'm maybe alittle bit more active in the
Asian Patent AttorneyAssociation.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
APA.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
APA Right, yeah, I sat on the patents committee of
that.
The Patent Attorney Associationhas a Patents Committee, which
always amused me, so I sat onthat and represented Singapore
at the Patents Committee meetingfor about six years, I think it
was.
But I think most of the liaisonSIPA does with Singaporean
(23:25):
bodies is with ASPA, which I'mnot so much involved with and I
don't know the kind of ecosystemin Singapore at all.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
Is it a regulated situation?
Are there restrictions in termsof?
Speaker 1 (23:39):
representation?
Yes, there are.
You have to be a registeredpatent attorney in.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Singapore.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
You have to go through the examination system.
They have a.
There's one of the localuniversities does a.
They used to do a course whichwas very similar to the Queen
Mary course, but it wascondensed into three or four
months.
They now changed that a bit.
So one of the universities doesthat and you have to take the
final exams and it's patentdrafting, amendment INV.
(24:08):
And there's a legal paper aswell which is almost like a
hybrid between the UK practicepaper and the EQE paper D.
So I went out there just aftergetting British qualified.
I only had to do the legalpaper.
Yeah, so there was recognition.
Yeah, I took it not long aftermoving there, um, which is
(24:31):
probably around the time that Iwas yeah, I was.
In fact, I was waiting on myresults of the eqe as well, so
I've done the eqe legal paper das well, and so, yeah, it was it
felt okay.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Have you been able to maintain the european side of
stuff, or is that gone becauseof your uh jurisdiction and well
, there's the, there's thejurisdictional issue there.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Yeah, so I maintain my, my fellowship of cpa.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
Yeah so, and we've talked about business practice
stuff previously, a few yearsback, yeah, yeah I remember yeah
, so so I maintain my fellowshipof cpa.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
I mean, I suppose I thought about the possibility of
, you know, representing clientsdirectly at the UK IPO or the
EPO, but I don't know what it'slike.
Do you still have to havedeposit accounts at the EPO now,
or can you pay official feeswith credit cards?
I can still deposit accounts.
I just looked at that and Ithought you know what I don't
want to do that?
Yeah, I don't want to do that.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Are you fairly unique in Singapore or are there other
sort of I?
Speaker 2 (25:31):
like to think.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
I'm unique, of course , we all like to think we're
unique, there are, there areother.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Brits out there.
There are several firms likeMarks and Clark has an office
there in terms of smallpractices?
Yes, there are a few, they'reeverywhere.
So yeah.
Sorry, I thought you meant likethe CPA, EPA practicing in
Singapore.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
There's a handful, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Maybe more than a handful.
So.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
Yeah, there's a little community there.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
There are some smaller firms there, yes, yeah,
and they all seem to be doingquite well.
It's a respected qualification,I imagine.
I think so.
Yeah, Some of the pass ratesare the examination pass rates
are still very low.
Well, I think one of the issuesthey have as well they let
people take the exams too early.
(26:23):
You know to be registered inSingapore, you have to have
passed all those exams and youhave to have had I think the
requirement is still the sameyou have to have had a one-year
internship under a registeredpatent attorney,
post-qualification or duringPre-qualification,
pre-qualification.
So that's far too short.
I mean, and I tried talking toIPOS about this and saying you
(26:44):
know what, try to explain tothem the situation where they're
, even before the pre-EQE youneed three years minimum at the
EQE before taking the EQE, notthree years to get registered,
but three years to take the EQE.
And I think they I don't know,I think they don't want to
discourage people from trying.
But what you get then is Ithink you get lots of candidates
(27:07):
taking exams far too early.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
That's a perennial discussion.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
Yeah, possibly everywhere, everywhere, possibly
everywhere, yeah, anywherewhere you can electively take
qualifications when you feelyou're ready for them.
Yeah, yeah, so I'm going toround off with a life question.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
How are you, I've got a closer.
Oh, you've got a closer.
I've got a closer.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
I've got.
No, you do no, you go firstAlways prefer to you?
Speaker 4 (27:27):
Life question.
Life question yeah, are yougoing to be there forever?
Singapore.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Probably not.
Probably not.
I doubt I'll retire there.
I doubt I will.
I've got some ideas, butnothing confirmed.
It's tricky, isn't it?
It's a very, very expensiveplace to live.
Yeah, I guess A very expensiveplace to live.
Speaker 4 (27:50):
It's kicked off completely in the last few years
as well, hasn't it?
Speaker 1 (27:53):
it's got one of the most expensive in the world now,
or something yeah, I mean whenwe moved there, three things
were expensive property, carsand alcohol and now everything's
expensive.
Actually it wasn't even before.
Covid in the late can we callthem the noughties in the late
nought?
Speaker 2 (28:08):
we call them the naughties.
Are we still, yeah, in the late?
Speaker 1 (28:10):
naughties.
Suddenly you see prices, justeverything.
Everything is imported, youknow, and everything.
So but yeah, it's been a very,very good place to be Sort of
sort of nicked the closure.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
Yeah, I think it's well, it's related.
So the way this works is Inormally ask him a question,
then I'll ask it of you and thenhe'll ask me the same question.
I've not actually thought aboutmy answer to this one in
advance.
Oh good, I like these because Ifeel that's pressure, so I was
quite taken by the move toSingapore and sort of how that's
worked out.
So, Gwilym, if you weren'twhere, you were now and I know
(28:50):
you love where you live.
Yeah, when would be your nextdestination?
Where would you choose to live?
Oh, I'd be back in Hong.
Speaker 4 (28:56):
Kong?
Yeah for sure.
Absolutely Not dissimilar to me.
I don't know if you got a tastefor Asia the first.
Every time I go there I think Iwant to live here, but again,
for not the similar reasons butsome extra reasons that it's
(29:16):
just just not feasible, which isa real shame actually.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Hong Kong's an amazing place.
I mean, I remember the firsttime I went there, I was just.
There's a buzz in the air therethat I'd never experienced
anywhere else, and and that'slargely why we first thought
about trying our arm therebefore the opportunity came up.
In Singapore and you AnIndonesian beach or a Thai beach
, I thought you were a surfer,that would make sense.
Speaker 4 (29:44):
Very bad surfer.
Oh, so I was assuming you'dretire back to the UK.
I couldn't take that climateagain.
I was going to say no, so I wasassuming you'd retire back to
the UK.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
I couldn't take that climate again.
I was going to say no, no, no.
I was going to say Sorry to allthose British people that are
listening, but I couldn't takethat climate again, oh well no,
your retirement plans suit myretirement plans.
Speaker 4 (29:58):
I'm going to come and see you wherever you are.
That sounds really good.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Lee, yeah, so you know I like my sea fishing yeah
so I would probably go somewherelike this sounds really sad,
doesn't it?
Maybe the Witterings or Salseyor somewhere like that?
Oh that's good, I know, not amillion miles away, but you know
just somewhere where.
I could sort of walk out of thehouse, walk down the beach and
just set the rods up and sitthere all day brilliant and
(30:25):
listen to two IPs in a pod onyour headphones there'll be
other people doing it by then,of course you'll never be giving
this up.
Speaker 4 (30:32):
You'll never be giving it up.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Come on, we know this thank you so much, michael, for
spending time at Inter with uson that podcast.
Thank you for the invitationthank you, as ever, for being an
amazing host, amazing host.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
We'll see you next time.
Massively.
I remember, I still remember tothis day, you know, flying into
Tinging Airport and there's adriver waiting for me and I came
out of the airport to like afive or a six-way junction and
there's a guy standing in themiddle of this traffic whizzing
left, right, back forth, everywhich direction you can imagine
and a few you couldn't imagineas well.
(00:21):
And there's this guy.
And there's this guy.
Lee Davis and Gwilym Robertsare the two IPs in a pod.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
And you are listening to a podcast on intellectual
property Brought to you by theChartered Institute of Patent
Attorneys.
To our peace in the sea, to ourpeace in the sea.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
So, Gwilym, interesting name you've got
there.
I was quite impressed that wewere having a conversation
earlier on a different podcastand someone immediately said, oh
, is that a Welsh name?
No, it's good, it's a good spot.
It's a good spot, but no onelooked at my badge and saw Davis
and said is that a Welsh name?
Speaker 4 (01:03):
That's true, that's true, yeah, yeah, because you
are.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Welsh, yeah, how do?
Speaker 3 (01:07):
you identify.
No, I do identify more Welshthan I am.
I did one of those DNA testythings Right and was quite
surprised because I came back as79% Welsh.
Is there a gene for Welshness?
There is.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
Yeah, is there a gene for Welshness?
There is, yeah, ah, yeah, yeah,yeah, well, it's more kind of
that.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
you're of that kind of side of the country, Right oh
, I see, and I've got about 10%Scottishness in me and I have no
idea where it comes from,because I don't know anyone in
my family who's ever Scottish atany point in time.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
So back to the name thing.
It was quite impressive wasn'tit in Wales she said she wasn't
born in Wales for the microphone, so where are you from?
Speaker 3 (01:45):
where is your Welshness from Aberystwyth?
Speaker 4 (01:47):
born in Aberystwyth, my dad I think we talked about
this before my dad's fromWrexham.
That's been a long time agothat's from Wrexham which very
topical now and everyone knowswhere they are which is one of
the oddest things ever.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
I was born, in fact, until Gavin and Stacey came
along, because I'm a BarryIslander, yeah that's tricky,
but no, it's all very Celtic.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
We're in an Irish pub , of course.
We are indeed yes, and, aswe're about to find out, we have
a guest who?
Who's also not English?
Who's not English?
I don't think so, but I'd bevery surprised if you suddenly
say you're English.
I'm known as Michael to many,but I'm proud, I think, to be
(02:29):
allowed to call him Mick fromold time's sakes.
But I've known you, mick, fordo we know?
22 years, that's very specificI mean you're looking younger
now than you did then.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
I must have looked really rough before.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
We thought it would be interesting to have you on
years.
I mean, you're looking youngernow than you did then.
I must have looked really roughbefore.
Yeah, no, we thought it'd beinteresting to have you on
because you've done quite aninteresting career and in
particular, you've done kind ofa double continent career.
We don't have that many peoplewho know about Asia the way that
you probably do, so we thoughtwe'd get you along find out
about your history and then hearabout what's happening out east
(03:06):
right now.
Well, if you want to know abouthappening.
I'm the wrong guy.
Ah, you make it happen.
That's what's going on.
Yeah, so as I recall, youdidn't start in patents, is that
right?
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Yeah, no, my degree is engineering electrical
engineering and like a goodelectrical engineer, I went off
to work as one for some time.
Engineering.
And like a good electricalengineer, I went off to work as
one for some time, after someyears in the.
In doing that I thought, okay,it's time for a change.
I had a friend who was a patentattorney straight out of
university talking to him onenight and we'd had some
discussions about patentattorney as a career, as a
(03:38):
profession before and this timeI really I was ready.
I was ready for it this time.
So, yeah, I wrote off to a fewI was ready for it this time so
yeah, I wrote off to a fewplaces.
It was good enough to land atrainee patent attorney ship and
that was yeah, that was 25years ago.
I've been doing this 25 yearsand then, as you say so, I spent
(03:59):
training and qualified inLondon, including time under
this fine gentleman here atKilburn Strode Really Under him,
as in actually that's how weoperate at Kilburn.
Strode Wow.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
Yeah, are you in charge of people?
It's a physical hierarchy.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
This man.
I think it's fair to say thisman hired me you mean he wasn't
it?
Speaker 4 (04:14):
as I recall, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
And so, yeah, I must admit, happy at Kilburn and
Strode.
But a very long story veryshort.
My wife is Chinese originally.
She's been a British citizenmore than 20 years.
We decided for a move back toAsia and something came up in
Singapore and we went for it.
So, yeah, did you meet her inChina?
I did.
I was working before I was asan engineer.
I was in China working as anengineer and I met her there and
, yeah, eventually she came backto the UK.
By this time I was in Londontraining as a patent attorney
(04:46):
and we stayed there five, six,yeah, six or seven years before
deciding to move out to Asia.
Speaker 4 (04:52):
Okay, what was it like?
So that was China in the late90s, early 2000s.
It was a bit of a differentstory from now.
I'm guessing it's verydifferent.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
We were in a city called Tianjin, beijing, near
Beijing, okay, and out then itwas dusty and dirty and polluted
and not particularly fragrant.
It was a fabulous city.
I loved it, I absolutely lovedit.
I mean it was eyes wide open,massive experience, really
massive experience.
Now it's relatively genteel.
(05:19):
We were there about a year and ahalf ago.
Right, I mean, it'sunrecognizable.
Okay, you know so.
All that, you know it still hasdays where the pollution is
pretty bad and other days whereit's just beautifully clear.
Yeah, you know so.
But you know you don't have thedirt and the dust in the same
way that you had.
You know it's.
You know it's become a verysophisticated city.
(05:40):
I want to think about city.
I must be quite a bit cultureshocked, though, going back then
Massively.
I remember, I still remember tothis day, you know, flying into
Tinging Airport and there's adriver waiting for me and I came
out of the airport to like afive or a six way junction and
there's a guy standing in themiddle of the traffic whizzing
left, right, back forth, everywhich direction you can imagine
(06:02):
and a few you couldn't imagineas well.
And there's a guy, there's asecurity, our police officer
standing in the middle of theroad looking utterly
disinterested.
I'm like what's he doing there?
And I realised there's some guysquatting in the middle of the
junction, just hitting the roadwith a big hammer, and I'm
thinking, oh my God, where am I?
(06:22):
And it was just like here we goand you strap yourself in, and
it was.
I must admit, it was just fun,I loved it.
It was fascinating, absolutelyfascinating.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
so, yeah, because I went out to Asia in the 70s to
this similar kind of cultures,like actually quite interested
in this bit of the story,funnily enough.
So things like um, how many,how many kind of Western
engineers were you in a mixedteam?
How did it work?
Speaker 1 (06:45):
so we were.
So I used to work for bigconstruction companies.
They would design and buildpharmaceutical plants, fine
chemical plants, um, and I wasout there for the.
There was a construction of abig pharmaceutical plant going
on in a place called sujo, whichis not you know sort of in the
(07:06):
shanghai vicinity.
Yeah, yeah, it's probably about250 kilometers, but for China
that's in the hood.
But the client in that bigpharma company they decided to
engage a design institute andthey were in Tianjin.
So I was the lead electricalengineer on the job and got
(07:28):
shipped out there with the leadinstrumentation engineer, the
lead mechanical engineer, thelead process engineer and so on.
We went out there kind of tosupervise things.
So there was a few.
There was a big Motorola plantthere, so there was quite a few
Americans.
There was a Spanish not Spanish, swedish pharmaceutical company
out there, so you wouldoccasionally come across a few
(07:48):
of their guys.
But yeah, I mean, westernerswere few and far between and
you'd be walking around thestreets and, frankly, you'd
attract a lot of attention.
Yeah, you know, like littlekids are running up to you and
shout hello, hello.
You shout back to them in helloin chinese.
And if you thought this was thefunniest thing ever it was.
It was really just an amazingexperience.
(08:09):
That's cool.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
I guess I'll move on for a minute, but I've just said
the era, Interestingly, that Iguess was when China was really
trying to reestablish itself asa kind of high end industrial
setup rather than you know, justcheap plastic and stuff.
Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
So I mean, this was like the pharma plant was.
So I went out there on what wassupposed to be a two-year job,
but the part of the project Iwas working on got cancelled
after six months.
So, in effect, I was there justlong enough to get myself a
wife, basically.
But yeah, I mean this is reallylike fine pharmaceutical
processing.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
There was a primary plant and what they continued on
with in the end was a secondaryplant, a packaging plant.
So they ended up they wereshipping in like pharmaceutical
product to be packaged, insteadof manufacturing or making the
pharmaceutical product there aswell.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
Then you head to London.
Then and again, you're notEnglish.
We've established this veryclearly.
Why London?
Why not back up to Scotland?
You're not English, we'veestablished this very clearly
why London?
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Why not back up to Scotland?
Just really following theopportunities, the kind of work
that I did at that time, Ialways seemed to be ending up in
places that I didn't reallywant to be.
I finally managed to go myselfa job in London which I was over
the moon about, and then sixmonths later I just you know
what I want to do somethingdifferent, you know.
So it was then about.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
That time was that, alan, that you'll make yes good
friend Mr MacDougall now of.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Matheson Squire.
I know the name, hello Alan.
So Alan was in my class atuniversity.
We studied electricalengineering together, so, yeah,
he was the one that said whydon't you give this a try?
And so here I am now and yourwife came.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
I love this like.
This is your life, isn't?
Speaker 3 (09:52):
it by the way.
Yeah, we're gonna bring you abook come on out, alan.
Speaker 4 (09:55):
Come on out, alan.
My parents-in-law in the back,so your wife came over.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
She followed you eventually, yeah, um, probably,
oh, a year and a half, two yearslater, something like that she
finally came, finally came overto stay.
She came over to visit once ortwice.
She finally came over to stay.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
She came over to visit once or twice.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
She finally came over to stay and so we eventually
set up.
We had an apartment in Ealing.
It was all very nice little.
I must admit I quite enjoyedliving in Ealing, so coming into
, and it was very convenientcoming into Holborn on the
central line so very, veryconvenient and.
Speaker 4 (10:27):
I remember, obviously you joined, we joined us and we
never looked back.
I mean, that was that's when itreally began the pill in the
throat for sure so leaving whenI left.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
When I left, business took off.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
And then you, then you dropped the bombshell about
heading out to Singapore and Ithink I remember you saying that
your wife she missed Asia.
Or are you missing Asia?
Speaker 1 (10:45):
she had.
She had a good education from agood university in China and
she was finding it difficult tofind somewhere that would
recognise that.
So, yeah, that was part of theplan At that time.
I mean, I must admit I was very, very happy working with these
guys, possibly the happiest I'dever been in a job.
But yeah, I think to move, Ithink it felt I was okay, it
(11:06):
felt like it was time to trysomething back out in Asia again
and Singapore.
What a great place to be as well, I must admit it has been good.
It is a nice place to live howlong?
Have you been there?
This year it will be 20 years,20 years well, I've popped out.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
I visited you out there once or twice.
I'm sure it's such a lovelyplace to go as well.
I don't know because I don'tknow all this, even though I
know you quite well.
I don't know a lot of this.
I'm interested, but obviouslyin Singapore you started working
for a firm that was out there.
It was Lloyd Wise.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
I went for what was Lloyd Wise at the time?
Yeah, I'd never worked for themin the UK, but yeah, it was a
good opportunity and went outthere and yeah, they were very
good to me as well, frankly.
But yeah, then my wife was.
We were expecting her first and, well, as it turned out, only
child.
So it just felt like time to dosomething else and in the end I
(11:55):
needed some flexibility.
I decided I made the veryfoolish choice of setting up on
my own.
First I thought I can do just alittle bit of freelancing work,
but in the end I made thedecision.
You know what?
Let's try as a real patentagency, let's act for our own
(12:16):
domestic clients and do incomingwork for international clients.
And still, to this day, it's asmall firm but frankly, I feel
like I've found my niche there.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
it's a nice little size.
What do you like about it?
I suppose in bigger firms, Imean, there's a lot of
infrastructure in place in thebigger firms, so in the smaller
firm, in the smaller firm.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
I mean having worked in massive corporations before
as an engineer, massivecorporations before as an
engineer, I kind of had enoughof these massive hierarchical
structures, you know, layer uponlayer upon layer of hierarchy.
And that was one of the thingsI liked about moving into the
Patna Tony profession, becauseat the time you're going to a
(13:01):
firm that's a certain size andyou know there's you and above
you is possibly the partnerdirectly you know, that's it.
Yeah, you know, there is nolayer of hierarchy, so that's
part of it.
You know, if there's teambuilding, you know what.
We don't have to plan teambuilding.
Let's go for lunch, you know,yeah, let's go for lunch and a
(13:24):
huge amount of autonomy.
Yes, well, that's right.
So I'm like chief of police, soI can do what I want, basically
when I want as well, and Idon't need to build a business
case to come to Inter in SanDiego.
I don't need to convince abunch of other partners that I
should go.
Or could I do a littlediversion?
Speaker 3 (13:42):
I know you're going to come back.
Yeah, that's fine, because youmentioned Inter.
Why is it so?
Speaker 1 (13:47):
important.
I had kind of forgotten howimportant it was.
I don't do it every year.
I didn't go last year,obviously, we were in Singapore
and that was very good.
We did everything, we had asmall reception and that went
fabulously well.
But before that, the last timeI had been to Inter was Seattle
in 2018.
Okay, I don't go every year,but actually, you know, I have a
(14:10):
bunch of good meetings here.
I mean mostly, almostexclusively, I'm meeting with
people I already know, so it'snot about new business?
Speaker 3 (14:17):
It's not.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
No, you're picking up some useful new contacts.
I'm just checking my email onthe way over here and there's
some new LinkedIn contactrequests dropping in my email
inbox.
You know so.
Request dropping in my emailinbox perfect, you know so, and
interesting looking contacts aswell.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
So but you know so it's a bit of both.
So it's not hard sell, it's notpromo, it's getting here
networking with people and ifyou pick up a few contacts and
stuff, exactly, yeah, yeah,exactly.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
So I mean, I was at a reception earlier and bumped
into someone and within twominutes they said did you does
your firm file in my country?
You know, know, and.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Because we were only saying earlier, weren't we?
We had a little walk aroundearlier and saying how tough it
looks for people that are reallytrying to use it as a platform
for new business.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
Yeah, the networking space is a bit brutal.
I think, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
So yeah, If I didn't make it to Inter, it wouldn't be
the end of the world.
Yeah, you know, but I'mreminded how good it can be and
so far.
So we're what halfway throughhere.
Yeah, Actually, it's beenreally good so far.
It's been really good so far.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
London next year you coming.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Well, I need to think about that, right, I mean
accommodation and getting around.
You can crash at mine.
Speaker 4 (15:30):
That's the deal.
Okay, all these, I'll be there.
I'm in portsmouth, otherwise,it's a given.
It's a given.
Otherwise, yeah, yeah, I go toeverybody.
All the podcasters you'll cometo mind, don't worry, all right
well, there's another connection, then.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
The company I worked for when I was sent out to china
was a construction companybased construction contractor,
based in portsmouth.
Who's that?
It was at the time john brownengineer.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah.
So I was with them for well,they were later taken over by,
uh, caverna, yeah yeah yeah, Iworked for them for four years.
I lived in Farum for four years.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
There's another connection so back to to
Singapore, so you started yourown firm.
It's really interesting.
But you it sounds like you likethat autonomy and the kind of
the yeah, but I mean the yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
There's some with no matter what you do.
There's some give and takeright.
So, for example, you as thechair and a partner at Kilburn,
and so you don't have to doeverything, although I get the
impression at times you thinkyou have to do everything.
Oh he does.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
Yeah, he does, he absolutely does.
I've been told off my opinionfor that as well.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
But yes, you don't have to do everything,
everything and uh, so I mean nowI mean everything the office is
set up.
I mean we use the samedocketing system you use, so
it's incredibly sophisticatedand and when you have these
kinds of systems, when you setit up and it takes very little
maintenance after that.
So so things just happen.
You know things just happen.
But there is ultimately, youknow, when you're setting that
(16:45):
up, everything relies, you know,everything lands on you.
You know, and making sure thingshappen in the way you want them
to happen, you don't just waveyour hand and say something like
you know what I don't like,this process flow.
I have to sit down and think,okay, how do we want it and how
do we make that happen?
So, oh, we need to do a bit ofbusiness development work.
Some of my colleagues are lessexcited at the prospect of doing
(17:09):
that, so that falls to me aswell.
So there's a bit of that.
But on the other hand, we don'thave partners meetings where we
spend three hours debating whatcolour of toaster to buy for
the kitchen.
So there's pros and cons.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
You're making partnership sound so exciting.
No, no.
Speaker 4 (17:27):
We have a very clear-cut set of recommendations
.
Now it's not an openconversation.
Now we've got three colors tochoose from three toasters, to
choose from three toasters tochoose from.
Yeah, but then again you've gotthe number of slices and how
that will stay.
They can get complex, you'reright, but so I know that you I
get that you travel around thatregion fairly regularly as well.
On On business, I mean, youseem to kind of.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
A little bit, yeah, not as much as I could or maybe
even should.
So I went to.
I did a trip to Seoul inSeptember, again just catching
up with people.
I know there's no cold callingand saying can I come and see
you?
You don't know me, but can Icome and see you?
The time I had there was filledwith meeting people I already
(18:13):
know I had been thinking aboutdoing a trip to Japan.
I haven't been there for maybesix years.
Yeah, yeah, I thought aboutdoing that sort of February,
march time, but the way thingsjust fell out it didn't happen.
So maybe Yokohama in Septemberfor the IPPI meeting, I don't
know.
So I used to go up, I used todo.
When I started the firm I wasdoing a lot of.
I was supporting a lot oflitigation in Malaysia patent
(18:36):
litigation- Really, so I was upand down there quite a lot, yeah
, but not for all.
But then as the firm grew andthe practice took off, just
you're approached to do opinionwork and I'm like sorry, I mean
I've got three patent drafts onmy desk, I can't do an opinion
now.
So we haven't really beenclosely, deeply involved in
litigation for some time and theSingapore it feels like we're a
(18:58):
hub generally in Southeast Asia.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
It's a little tiger or whatever, isn't it?
I mean, is that from an IPperspective as well, is
Singapore a fairly significantjurisdiction?
Speaker 1 (19:09):
From an IP perspective as well, is
Singapore a fairly significantjurisdiction.
It depends on who you talk to,I think.
I think many people talk aboutSingapore as being key.
Where we find it is quiteuseful for some clients is if
you get granted patents inSingapore, for example, you can.
Then there's a PPH agreementfor the rest of the ASEAN states
, places like Thailand, malaysia, vietnam, they're in Indonesia.
(19:31):
They're not particularly fast,you know, and okay, there's a
bit of a backlog at theSingapore IP office just now as
well, which makes that a littlebit more difficult.
But from a strategicperspective that can be very
useful, sort of YN, yeah, or itkind of greases the wheels a
little bit in other countriesright, and not with any sort of
negative connotations.
(19:52):
It just makes things a littlebit easier.
I think lots of the patentexaminers in some of the other
Southeast Asian states are quitehappy to look and see what
happens in other jurisdictionsand if you say, okay, we have a
granted patent in Singapore.
Okay, that's good enough for us, right?
So that's one of them.
What you can do is what you cando with trademarks Trademarks.
It's an important jurisdictionfor trademarks because it's such
(20:13):
a big and connected shippingport.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
So you have custom seizures.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Custom seizures.
You can't do that for patents,of course, but you can have it
for trademarks.
I I've seen other peopletalking about Singapore being
strategic, about, you know,because it's the big player in
the region.
Yeah, it gives a sort ofmessage that we're serious about
the region and so we want tofile and have IP protection in
(20:40):
Singapore.
Speaker 4 (20:41):
I did proto-patent litigation in Singapore,
probably in the late 90s, early2000s by aeroplane seats, but I
remember at the time it's apretty cool case.
I remember at the time that thelaw was quite old British, it
was a 49 Act.
Is that still the situation?
Speaker 1 (21:03):
No, they modernised the Act in 95.
I can't remember if it cameinto force in 95 or 96.
Basically, they followed veryclosely the UK Act 77.
And some sections of theSingapore Act still repeat word
for word sections from the UK 77Act, but they still had their
(21:26):
own tweaks.
They had a type of modifiedexamination where you basically
get a granted patent in the UK abunch of jurisdictions like the
UK, epo, us and a few otherplaces as well.
You file a form at IPOS and say, okay, we conform the claims to
those as granted in this otherjurisdiction, let's have a
(21:49):
patent for that.
They call it theself-assessment system.
Yeah, yeah, and even if youused IPOS for substantive
examination, if you had anegative examination report, you
could still pay the grant feeon it and get a granted patent.
I doubt you would.
I imagine you would have somedifficulty enforcing it, but
that's what you could do.
Okay, so they still had itslittle quirks and that was
(22:11):
really down to the fact thatthey didn't have any patent
examiners.
Do you still engage with SEPA?
Not so much lately.
No, not so much.
I remember writing a fewarticles some time back.
I think it was so long ago Ican't even remember what it was
about.
I said so long ago I can't evenremember what it was about.
(22:32):
I did a review of.
I remember I did the previous.
The previous the review of aprevious edition of Terrell
Terrell and the law of patents.
So I did.
I remember doing the bookreview for that, but yeah,
that's uh not how much I thoughtabout trying to like the.
The main, the main.
I think the main liaison SIPAdoes in Singapore is through the
Association of Singapore PatentAttorneys.
Yeah, yeah yeah, I was on theexecutive committee of that for
(22:56):
a while, but it's going backsome time, okay.
So the other one I'm maybe alittle bit more active in the
Asian Patent AttorneyAssociation.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
APA.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
APA Right, yeah, I sat on the patents committee of
that.
The Patent Attorney Associationhas a Patents Committee, which
always amused me, so I sat onthat and represented Singapore
at the Patents Committee meetingfor about six years, I think it
was.
But I think most of the liaisonSIPA does with Singaporean
(23:25):
bodies is with ASPA, which I'mnot so much involved with and I
don't know the kind of ecosystemin Singapore at all.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
Is it a regulated situation?
Are there restrictions in termsof?
Speaker 1 (23:39):
representation?
Yes, there are.
You have to be a registeredpatent attorney in.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
Singapore.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
You have to go through the examination system.
They have a.
There's one of the localuniversities does a.
They used to do a course whichwas very similar to the Queen
Mary course, but it wascondensed into three or four
months.
They now changed that a bit.
So one of the universities doesthat and you have to take the
final exams and it's patentdrafting, amendment INV.
(24:08):
And there's a legal paper aswell which is almost like a
hybrid between the UK practicepaper and the EQE paper D.
So I went out there just aftergetting British qualified.
I only had to do the legalpaper.
Yeah, so there was recognition.
Yeah, I took it not long aftermoving there, um, which is
(24:31):
probably around the time that Iwas yeah, I was.
In fact, I was waiting on myresults of the eqe as well, so
I've done the eqe legal paper das well, and so, yeah, it was it
felt okay.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Have you been able to maintain the european side of
stuff, or is that gone becauseof your uh jurisdiction and well
, there's the, there's thejurisdictional issue there.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Yeah, so I maintain my, my fellowship of cpa.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
Yeah so, and we've talked about business practice
stuff previously, a few yearsback, yeah, yeah I remember yeah
, so so I maintain my fellowshipof cpa.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
I mean, I suppose I thought about the possibility of
, you know, representing clientsdirectly at the UK IPO or the
EPO, but I don't know what it'slike.
Do you still have to havedeposit accounts at the EPO now,
or can you pay official feeswith credit cards?
I can still deposit accounts.
I just looked at that and Ithought you know what I don't
want to do that?
Yeah, I don't want to do that.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Are you fairly unique in Singapore or are there other
sort of I?
Speaker 2 (25:31):
like to think.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
I'm unique, of course , we all like to think we're
unique, there are, there areother.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Brits out there.
There are several firms likeMarks and Clark has an office
there in terms of smallpractices?
Yes, there are a few, they'reeverywhere.
So yeah.
Sorry, I thought you meant likethe CPA, EPA practicing in
Singapore.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
There's a handful, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Maybe more than a handful.
So.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
Yeah, there's a little community there.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
There are some smaller firms there, yes, yeah,
and they all seem to be doingquite well.
It's a respected qualification,I imagine.
I think so.
Yeah, Some of the pass ratesare the examination pass rates
are still very low.
Well, I think one of the issuesthey have as well they let
people take the exams too early.
(26:23):
You know to be registered inSingapore, you have to have
passed all those exams and youhave to have had I think the
requirement is still the sameyou have to have had a one-year
internship under a registeredpatent attorney,
post-qualification or duringPre-qualification,
pre-qualification.
So that's far too short.
I mean, and I tried talking toIPOS about this and saying you
(26:44):
know what, try to explain tothem the situation where they're
, even before the pre-EQE youneed three years minimum at the
EQE before taking the EQE, notthree years to get registered,
but three years to take the EQE.
And I think they I don't know,I think they don't want to
discourage people from trying.
But what you get then is Ithink you get lots of candidates
(27:07):
taking exams far too early.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
That's a perennial discussion.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
Yeah, possibly everywhere, everywhere, possibly
everywhere, yeah, anywherewhere you can electively take
qualifications when you feelyou're ready for them.
Yeah, yeah, so I'm going toround off with a life question.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
How are you, I've got a closer.
Oh, you've got a closer.
I've got a closer.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
I've got.
No, you do no, you go firstAlways prefer to you?
Speaker 4 (27:27):
Life question.
Life question yeah, are yougoing to be there forever?
Singapore.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Probably not.
Probably not.
I doubt I'll retire there.
I doubt I will.
I've got some ideas, butnothing confirmed.
It's tricky, isn't it?
It's a very, very expensiveplace to live.
Yeah, I guess A very expensiveplace to live.
Speaker 4 (27:50):
It's kicked off completely in the last few years
as well, hasn't it?
Speaker 1 (27:53):
it's got one of the most expensive in the world now,
or something yeah, I mean whenwe moved there, three things
were expensive property, carsand alcohol and now everything's
expensive.
Actually it wasn't even before.
Covid in the late can we callthem the noughties in the late
nought?
Speaker 2 (28:08):
we call them the naughties.
Are we still, yeah, in the late?
Speaker 1 (28:10):
naughties.
Suddenly you see prices, justeverything.
Everything is imported, youknow, and everything.
So but yeah, it's been a very,very good place to be Sort of
sort of nicked the closure.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
Yeah, I think it's well, it's related.
So the way this works is Inormally ask him a question,
then I'll ask it of you and thenhe'll ask me the same question.
I've not actually thought aboutmy answer to this one in
advance.
Oh good, I like these because Ifeel that's pressure, so I was
quite taken by the move toSingapore and sort of how that's
worked out.
So, Gwilym, if you weren'twhere, you were now and I know
(28:50):
you love where you live.
Yeah, when would be your nextdestination?
Where would you choose to live?
Oh, I'd be back in Hong.
Speaker 4 (28:56):
Kong?
Yeah for sure.
Absolutely Not dissimilar to me.
I don't know if you got a tastefor Asia the first.
Every time I go there I think Iwant to live here, but again,
for not the similar reasons butsome extra reasons that it's
(29:16):
just just not feasible, which isa real shame actually.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Hong Kong's an amazing place.
I mean, I remember the firsttime I went there, I was just.
There's a buzz in the air therethat I'd never experienced
anywhere else, and and that'slargely why we first thought
about trying our arm therebefore the opportunity came up.
In Singapore and you AnIndonesian beach or a Thai beach
, I thought you were a surfer,that would make sense.
Speaker 4 (29:44):
Very bad surfer.
Oh, so I was assuming you'dretire back to the UK.
I couldn't take that climateagain.
I was going to say no, so I wasassuming you'd retire back to
the UK.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
I couldn't take that climate again.
I was going to say no, no, no.
I was going to say Sorry to allthose British people that are
listening, but I couldn't takethat climate again, oh well no,
your retirement plans suit myretirement plans.
Speaker 4 (29:58):
I'm going to come and see you wherever you are.
That sounds really good.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Lee, yeah, so you know I like my sea fishing yeah
so I would probably go somewherelike this sounds really sad,
doesn't it?
Maybe the Witterings or Salseyor somewhere like that?
Oh that's good, I know, not amillion miles away, but you know
just somewhere where.
I could sort of walk out of thehouse, walk down the beach and
just set the rods up and sitthere all day brilliant and
(30:25):
listen to two IPs in a pod onyour headphones there'll be
other people doing it by then,of course you'll never be giving
this up.
Speaker 4 (30:32):
You'll never be giving it up.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Come on, we know this thank you so much, michael, for
spending time at Inter with uson that podcast.
Thank you for the invitationthank you, as ever, for being an
amazing host, amazing host.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
We'll see you next time.
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