June 9, 2025 • 36 mins
The upcoming INTA 2026 in London has us dreaming of pub quizzes, battle of the bands, and podcasting from double-decker buses, but before that excitement, we're diving into the world of intellectual property services with Andre Andrade and Emma Browning from RWS.
These fascinating guests share remarkably similar stories of finding their way into IP through language skills, Andre as a Portuguese, Spanish, English, and French speaker who began as a trademark watcher, and Emma with her French and Italian background starting as a project manager. What's striking is how both have fallen in love with the IP industry, unable now to imagine working in any other field.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We've got some news, haven't we?
Gwilym, do you want to breakthe news?
Can I break the news?
You can break the news.
Go on.
Are you ready?
Can I do a drumroll?
That's awful.
Where's the drum?
I need a new drum.
I thought you were a musician.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
It's a table Inter 2026 is going to be in London.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
How amazing's that?
Yeah, well, it means we donhappy not to fly.
My jet lag is astonishing.
What any plans?
Are there any things that weshould?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
do to come on.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
We know we've been brainstorming we've been having
a little thing, haven't we?
What, what, what?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
we've been thinking about everything we're about to
say we are committed tohappening next year exactly
whatever we everything, yeah.
Battle of the bands yeah, it'sgonna happen.
Is it because?
Speaker 1 (00:40):
inter likes its bands .
There's the opposition, isn'tthere.
So what?
What we're thinking of issomething, maybe on a different
evening, when we get four orfive IP bands together, yeah,
and they have a war Indeed, yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Indeed, and then I think, yours, one, two, three,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Pub quiz.
We've got to do a traditionalBritish pub quiz, haven't we?
Yeah, nice big pub somewhere.
Get a few Inter teams upourselves.
An ip quiz master.
It's a big pub to take a 10 000person quiz.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yeah, that might be a bit ambitious, mate.
That's fine a lot of prizes aswell but we're working.
What else do we talk about?
Oh yeah, obviously gonnaactually be podcasting again.
Yeah, um, we can.
We can maybe set the agenda forthe podcasting space.
We're in a beautiful booth thistime, but we've been talking
about sofas minibars.
Yeah, opinions getting reallyexcited about some of this.
It it's going to look likeGraham Norton meets Def Leppard.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Yeah, so treat our guests in the way that they
should be treated for appearingon such a prestigious podcast,
and I think we should hire aLondon bus and podcast from a
bus, podcast from a bus, podcastfrom a bus Dressed as beef
eaters.
Yes, this is so cool.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
We're absolutely committed to this.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Bring it on.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod
and you are listening to apodcast on intellectual property
brought to you by the CharteredInstitute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Hi Lee how you going Enjoying America Very much.
So yeah, Second time here.
Learning experience, isn't it?
It is very much.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
So yeah, yeah, yeah.
What is half and half?
Oh, that's the funny milkything, isn't it?
It's a little pot.
What is it?
I don't really know.
All I know is that if someonemakes you a drink with it, it
doesn't taste very good.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
It kind of swirls around on the top, it splits up
and everything, doesn't it?
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
It's more a story about when we were in Atlanta
last year, because my lovely barperson in the hotel I was
staying at, who told me his namewas Bernard but I would
obviously call him Bernard yes,indeed, and he loved that made
me an Irish coffee with it andit was quite possibly the worst
trip I've ever had in my life.
It was maybe four or five shotsof espresso and then that stuff
(02:49):
just poured in as well, about ahalf and half.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
I do think, though, that I sound very quaint when I
say it.
I'm sure Americans like ussaying half and half, because I
don't think that's how they sayit here.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
I don't do accents.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
I'm not, I'm stopping you cut accents.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Horrific attempt at American accent because I've
also written down my notes forBantz small dodgy sausage.
Tell us about that oh, it'sjust.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
It's just the breakfast at our hotel.
It's a full American breakfast,which is bacon that's been
incinerated, right, these funnysort of half-sized sausages that
seem to not taste like meat,and rock-solid scrambled egg.
That's it, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
I've done quite well with the food here.
Yeah, I've been having avocado,avocado toast, toast.
It's difficult not to get abreakfast with eggs.
Anyone notice?
Everything's got an egg or twoand you're only supposed to eat
two eggs a week, why love ofchickens?
Okay, don't know, don't know.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
That's why I read that song, yeah I thought there
was some health reasons for thatyeah it might be.
Yeah, so podcasting there, someexciting guests on next, but I
want to carry on the bants byway of introduction.
Oh, you're bants now yeah, yeah, yeah so, uh, we were doing a
little bit of planning yesterdayabout the podcast series.
Yes, and I happened to say toyou oh, on the plane on the way
over, I um, I saw andre and yousaid to me andre, who's andre?
(04:10):
Andre, the giant, andre, who'sandre?
Speaker 2 (04:13):
you said I saw andre the, and I interrupted you at
that moment, thinking it's gottabe giant right.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
And then and then andre, the guy from rws yeah,
yeah and then, I explained it,it's andre from
Speaker 2 (04:23):
rws.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
And then about 20 minutes later I think it was you
were explaining where you were.
I'm going to dinner with him,you're going to dinner with
Andre.
So how did you not know it wasone and the same person?
You were lagged.
We're coming on to jet lag.
Yeah, you were lagged.
We've got some Andrade.
Is that the right Say it for meAndre.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
So it's Andre, andrade, Okay.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
But Andre.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
Andrade is just as acceptable.
It's as close as I'm going toget with my tongue, okay.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
And Emma Browning.
I've probably got that right,emma, haven't I, you have?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, cool.
So welcome both to the podcast,thank you.
Thank you, you're here Talk tous all about who you are and
what you do, but do you want todo your jet lag bit first?
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Yeah, what's this?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
jet lag app.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
So my brother recently went travelling and
downloaded an app because he wasgoing to Australia, called Time
Shifter, and I've been tellingeverybody about it.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
Right.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
So you put in your flights and where you're going,
and then it will develop a planfor when you should get bright
light, when you should wearsunglasses outside, when you
should wear sunglasses outside,when you should drink caffeine
and when you should sleep inorder to beat jet lag.
And it worked.
It worked.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
It worked.
Wow, I just sleep is what I do.
Well, that's what you'll tellme.
Well, I don't sleep on theplane, so that's the issue.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
When it tells me to sleep for 10 hours.
I'm not going to sleep.
That's the tricky bit, isn't it?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Because I got advised on jet lag once by a London
taxi driver who said it's allabout getting sunshine on the
back of your knees, apparentlyso.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
I thought it was in your eyes.
I know you'd think, wouldn'tyou, but I've just been lying in
the pavement.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Wearing shorts.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Oh, that was you, wasn't it?
Laughter, I just stepped over.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Yeah, everyone did, everyone did.
I got some money, though itwasn't all bad.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Yeah, so welcome both to the podcast.
Who wants to start?
Tell us who you are and tell usyour story.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
So we'll do the opposite of being a gentleman
and I'll start.
So.
My name's Andre, so I'mactually Portuguese and British,
so I've been living in fivecountries, 45 next month and I
work in translation and IPservices.
(06:34):
I'm actually a translator.
It's always very difficult tomeet law firm patent attorneys
because I am not an attorney,I'm not an agent, I am a
translator.
So I was sent into the IPindustry through working in law
firms from a commercial point ofview and also working in
service providers for nearly 15years.
(06:55):
And I found my calling actuallybecause I didn't even know what
a trademark was when I startedas a trademark watcher 15 years
ago and I cannot imagine notworking in IP now I know the
feeling.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
My story is about 13 years old and it's a similar
story.
I can't imagine not beingaround now.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
And then when people say, oh, what sector do you work
?
I was like every sector, it'sin everything that you never.
Oh, but the automotive sectoris ending.
I was like, yeah, but there'sall the other sectors that IP is
involved.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Did you come in because you were a translator,
was translating something thatyou were already?
Speaker 4 (07:31):
doing, yeah, so I was sold the dream that if you
speak languages, your money isgoing to be worth your weight in
gold Right and once yougraduate as a translator in
2009,.
Globalization has hiteverywhere and your languages
are not that obscure.
I speak Portuguese, spanish,english and French, and there
(07:53):
was a lot of competition and alot of people doing a lot better
than I do, um, so I couldn'tfind a job.
I went back to catering.
I worked in catering for 10years, uh, I went back to
catering and then I found a jobas a translator, trademark
watcher, well, and I was like awatcher what is a watcher?
I'm gonna?
I'm gonna watch what?
And so I went in with an openmind and I didn't realize I was
jumping in.
Sounds a bit sinister, doesn'tit?
(08:14):
Well, at least like a bit pervy.
But, um, I was going into.
I was going into a company thathad such a rich history, um, so
it doesn't exist anymore.
That's probably as common withsome of these companies.
So the company was calledtrademarks directory Service.
It was actually founded by WildBoar Gibbons, who also don't
exist anymore.
I remember TMDS and they hadthis history that in 1941, they
(08:38):
started a watching service, aworldwide watching service to
help Scotch Whiskey manage theirbrands around the world, and I
was fascinated by that andthat's where it started.
That's where it started.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
During a a war.
There was a war going on.
Little brief diversion just tobring Gwilym in.
It must be nice to have twoSpanish speakers on the podcast
yeah, I'm getting there.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
I'm getting there.
You know who we should bring inour other guest.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Oh sorry, emma, it's alright, I just wanted to bring
Willem in.
He's a fledgling Spanishspeaker.
Yeah, it's not going well.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
So I'm Emma Browning.
I'm a key account manager atRWFs and I kind of got into this
role through my languages.
So I studied French and Italianat university, love being
around different cultures anddifferent languages and I wanted
to be around them.
I didn't necessarily need touse them in my day-to-day, so I
joined as a project manager so Iwould manage the projects that
(09:35):
we would handle and then throughthat because I again with my
languages and communication, Ilove meeting people and getting
into client relations, so Imoved across to sort of get into
that role and again, like Andre, I'm right where I need to be.
I love IP.
I think, there's so much that isgoing on in the world that is
affected by IP and it's exciting.
(09:56):
And then all of the challengesthat different corporates or law
firms have is reallyfascinating to try and see how
different ones develop strategyto face the challenges that are
in the world today.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
So should we start off with why you guys are at
INTA.
So what's it all about for youbeing here?
Speaker 4 (10:14):
So this is my.
I was doing the math the otherday, so I started INTA in
Orlando in 2016, but I only havesix inters under my belt
because we went through theCOVID period and obviously there
was a big lag there, but for meit's always about three things,
meaning making newrelationships, strengthening the
(10:36):
existing ones, and one thatsometimes gets lost and maybe
for non-US attendees doesn'tmake a lot of sense, is about
the learning.
So, every time we have someonenew coming in from whatever
company I'm working at, I alwaysrecommend in your schedule have
a look at the plenary sessions,have a look at the talks, go in
(10:57):
there, listen to what they'resaying.
It's a good way for you toexpand your knowledge about
other things, and so I thinkthis is a lot about learning and
meeting and keeping yourrelationships.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
And you've got a nice collection of uh ribbons on
your.
I love the.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Remember last year we collected as many ribbons as we
could yeah, we will do a littlebit, yeah, so I like your
ribbons here, but yeah table.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Table topic uh meet moderator.
What was?
Speaker 4 (11:20):
your table topic.
So I had one yesterday and Ihave one few hours from now, but
yesterday was ribbon twice then.
Well, yeah, I didn't want tolike overshadow anything, so the
typical topic was reallyinteresting.
It's about how in-house patentattorneys or law firm patent
attorneys are utilizing ai tomodernize their workflows, so
it's really really good we had agood turnout.
(11:41):
That was the the full typicaltopic and we had a very long
discussion for two hours abouteverything that everyone is
doing, what kind of things thatthey need to be worried about.
It's not just about picking thethe most uh, easy and cheap
option and train your people,your team, to to use it
correctly.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
It's really interesting, but um yeah, and
then the other one I wassupporting the women Women's
Leadership Initiative.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Yeah, I think that's really important and we have at
RWS a significant increase inteam members that are in
leadership positions that arewomen, and RWS obviously
supports the diversity D-E-I,exclusivity, equity, equity,
(12:30):
equity.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Or equality, I hear both.
Actually they're notinterchangeable as well.
No, you've told me that they dotend to be interchangeable.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
It's something like looking over a fence, wasn't it?
Speaker 1 (12:39):
That's the exact story.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
There's something about fences in that.
Have you been to Inter before?
Speaker 3 (12:45):
No, this is my first time.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
What's your reflections?
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Well, so far, there are lots of people, lots of.
You see everywhere, evenoutside of the conference.
Everyone's wearing their band,everybody is in a bar and having
discussions.
You're in your hotel, you cansee loads of people who are
attending Inter.
You can feel that everyone ishere with one purpose in mind to
connect, and I think that'sgreat and really important.
(13:13):
To meet people in person, youdevelop relationships that are
completely different than justdoing something virtually, and
especially after the pandemic.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yeah, it's nice to be back, isn't?
Speaker 4 (13:24):
it.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
Better way.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
And have you ever just got to random people on the
street wearing a lanyard andintroduced yourself yet?
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Not yet.
I mean, I only landed lastnight, so not much opportunity
at this point You're stillworking for the jet lag.
Quite right, but I didn't haveany, so we're good.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
So tell us a bit more about RWS and what it is, what
it does, because you saidtranslation and IP services, so
develop that.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
Do you want to start?
I can start.
Yeah, go for it.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
So we will assist with services throughout the IP
lifecycle.
So we're starting in R&D so wemight perform searches to
identify that the invention isnovel.
We'll then help through foreignfiling so the translation and
filing.
We'll help with the renewalsthat have to be kept up with
(14:17):
your IP maintenance and anyrecordals that are required
should you have an acquisitionor a divestiture.
And then finally, furthersearches that basically follow
the passionate life cycle over20 years.
We don't deal with passionateprosecution.
That's something that webelieve law firms should
continue to do and leveragethose expertise.
(14:39):
So we very much work alongsidea lot of our law firms.
What can you?
Speaker 4 (14:46):
add Well, I'm more of a new host.
Hello, what's going?
Speaker 2 (14:49):
on here.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Oh sorry, Can't help myself.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
So I'm very much around the history.
I think that that helps withthe storytelling.
So what I would add to theperfect description and
introduction to what RWS does isjust that in 1958 there was a
company that was set up that wasfocusing in pattern translation
, so that was Randall.
The owner or the founder namewas Randall.
(15:16):
And then at the same time therewas Walcott and Co in the
states which was focusing inpattern search.
They probably met at an interand they got together and they
decided to do Randall WalcottServices and they became RWS.
What I've seen change in RWS ishow much focus we now give to
make sure that our messaging isas clear as possible that we are
(15:40):
a support services company.
We are the extension to a lawfirm's team.
We are not here to replace, weare here to empower.
This is a really clichesentence.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
I see you've got the T-shirt on as well, with that
written on it.
Speaker 4 (15:55):
It's a good look.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
No, it's important.
I think, as a user of thesevarious services and things,
they're really, really important.
There's stuff that privatepractice isn't geared up to do.
I don't think anyone expectsany particular competition.
It's really good dovetailing ofthe way these two things work
together.
I mean, the translation one'san interesting one.
That landscape has changedmassively over the last what?
(16:19):
20 years, maybe For more thanone reason, because long before
Google Translate came along, wehad the London Agreement also
reducing language requirementsand things.
But it still remains a reallyrelevant and important part of
the offering, I think.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
I think it does, but it also depends where you're
protecting your rights.
So obviously the perceptionaround the quality that's needed
for patent translation in theEuropean grand stage is becoming
more and more, especially withthe introduction of the Unite
patent and the confusing messagethat the BO has provided on
their website that thetranslation has no legal effect
(16:54):
but at the same time you can'tuse a machine translation.
It is confusing.
We do get clients asking us canI just use any translation,
just put something there?
That's not going to be an issue.
And I said no, we believe thatyou have to keep a quality
translation.
When you're in the BCT,national phase entry, you don't
have the patent yet.
Then everyone's still a bit moreconcerned.
(17:15):
But the shift that I see in theindustry is that a few years
ago the cost of doing a nationalphase entry 40 to 60 percent of
the price would be thetranslation.
Because of the advance of aiand the, the different
technology that will increasethe output and the speed of a
translator to perform thataction, I think we will see that
(17:38):
percentage reduce to almostjust an add-on to the whole
thing.
So it's becoming more and morecommoditized.
It is where it's going and wejust have to make sure that, as
the technology evolves, thehuman is there to support it and
making sure that it's doing theright thing.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
So how much is technology an opportunity and
how much is it a threat?
Speaker 4 (18:01):
So my next table topic is about genuine
intelligence, and that'ssomething that RWS coined, so it
was a term that we've come upwith.
You have artificialintelligence, you have human
intelligence, and where theyintersect is where you have the
best.
So in the middle is the virtue,et cetera, et cetera.
I think technology is 50-50,because if you don't behave in a
(18:29):
good way, or if you don't lookat the technology advancements
and legislation doesn't followwith how much quick technology
evolves, you are probably goingto find that it's more of a
threat instead of an opportunityto make everyone's lives easier
yeah, you gotta assume it'scoming and go with them.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
We've emma.
We've talked about this beforeabout where does ai fit into all
of it?
What are you seeing peopleasking for?
Where is it being useful so far?
Speaker 3 (18:56):
I think, especially with translations.
If you think about how clientsbudgets are looked at much more
closely now and you're beingasked to do more with less, how
can we make sure that you'reable to achieve the maximum that
you require with your budgetand still file where you want to
(19:17):
file?
So we'll always look attechnology as something that is
incredibly important and, ashumans, you're always looking
for the quickest route to get towhere you need to get to.
So if something is going tohelp you achieve that and still
achieve the same quality, whywould you not introduce
something into that process?
But then there are lots ofconcerns that clients have
(19:38):
around security that clientshave around security.
So making sure that all of thepolicy and procedures are in
place in order to be able tooffer such a service and meet
the requirements that clientshave is the first undertaking,
and reassuring clients thattheir data is protected and that
their competitors aren't goingto benefit from it as well is
(20:00):
something that I think is reallyclose to clients at the moment.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
The data is interesting because it's come up
on other podcasts that we'vedone so.
I work in the UK with quite alot of other association chief
execs and data sovereignty isprobably the biggie for us at
the moment because we've allmoved to the cloud many years
ago.
We're now being encouraged to Iwon't use brand names and stuff
.
That would be terribly unfairbut we're now being encouraged
(20:24):
to I won't use brand names andstuff.
That would be terribly unfair,but we're now being included
encouraged to move our data toleading sort of web services and
and I was a bit nervous aboutthat because you know, if that's
, if that's if we're in the ukand my data is being held in the
states, what does that mean forme in terms of ownership?
Is that similar?
Is that a similar sort of story?
Speaker 3 (20:42):
yes, in, just quite simply.
But I think that every clientis going to have their own
security questionnaire andrequirements that need to be met
, and every country is different.
If you look at the eu and gdpr,it's very different to the us.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
So, taking that into consideration and ensuring that
we can address and reassureclients that what we're doing is
held within a secure and do youmanage that by having your data
in sort of one or twojurisdictions or do you have
like a multi jurisdictionalapproach?
You're getting quite technical,I'm just interested in this.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
I'm not sure if we would be in a position to answer
or even know I probably couldfind the information out for you
.
That's right.
I don't have it to hand thiscloud thing On a podcast that's
going to be held to my word.
Come back to find me.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
I love the fact that we're now trying to work out
where the cloud is.
The whole point of the cloud is.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
it's not somewhere.
Now you're worried about whosecloud?
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Do you know?
I don't know what the origin.
By the way, it's slightlyperipheral.
I don't know what the origin ofthe word, the term cloud is,
but I'm pretty sure, having seenthousands in my job, that
basically they have a picture ofa phone, one end and the beacon
, and then the other end wouldbe a phone and the beacon.
In between they just draw acloud because they don't know
(22:07):
what's there.
I'm pretty sure that's why it'scalled the cloud.
But the whole point is itshouldn't matter where it is and
actually I do, having done someof the tech on this.
It's odd that it might be beingbrought back to geographical
locations.
I can see why it's interesting,isn't it?
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
I mean, it's always on a server somewhere, and I
think that's where it's animaginary cloud.
So I know that there's somelocations where the servers are
that are more complicated, andso I think why geography should
remain, just because it'sphysical.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
So obviously you've got lots of clients and you talk
to a lot of people.
What are they asking for?
That's not there yet.
What are the impossible asksyou're hearing from people?
Speaker 4 (22:53):
So I think we heard that from you as well.
So there's a lot of requestsfor good patent drafting tools
that can help, not replace thepatent attorney in drafting it.
They are looking at companiesthat have AI into their suite of
products to come up withsomething.
(23:14):
They're also asking more andmore for integration to existing
products more than can youbring me the new one-stop shop
that I'd have to move everythingover.
Yeah, so I think we saw a shiftfrom as long as I have an IPMS,
then everyone.
I just have to sell the IPMSand then everything will be with
(23:35):
me.
Ip management system.
Ip management system.
Thank you very much.
Podcast pro.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Matt Podcast pro.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
We went from trying to get the one-stop solution to
what fits with your team andwhat fits with your work and
they said well, I want this fromso-and-so and I want that from
that provider and I want to keepthis because we've spent a lot
of money and time building thisand training the team.
Can you make sure that we stayin the same environment but we
(24:04):
benefit from the extra servicesthat you have?
And so integration, I think, ison everyone's mouth and yeah,
so I think drafting ai andintegration emma I think as well
with the drafting part.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
It's not just having the tool, it's making sure that
it doesn't hinder.
So a lot of chemical clientsfind that the AI and the other
lands are struggling with thosechemical structures and there's
no value in adding all of thatin.
Some clients feel that theydon't want the tool.
(24:43):
They trust the humans that theyhave within their business that
know the product so well andhave that now that they have
developed and honed over many,many years and they don't see ai
as something that can disrupt.
But I'd be interested in twoyears time to see if we're still
saying the same thing.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yeah, I think at the moment we've seen personal
anecdotal, you see AI, stuffthat isn't very good in various
areas the drafting tools youtalk about and the analysis
tools.
One shouldn't therefore say, oh, it's not working.
It's just learning.
The whole thing's learning soquickly.
Actually, this is a new thought.
I've always said that thepatent system is brilliant
(25:25):
because one of its lovely sideeffects is that it publishes
every scientific advance that'sbeen made in the last 150 years.
It's published, that's whatit's there for and obviously
protected, yada, yada, but it'sall there.
I was just actually thinkingthat originally that was to
balance the monopoly but givingsomething back to the public,
etc.
And that's kind of, as we allknow, that's the policy then.
(25:46):
I don't think it was ever.
This policy clearly wasn'tdeveloped for a new world, but
basically learning opportunitiesfor machines of every aspect of
human technology as a result ofthat system is a lovely add-on,
I hope.
I hope it's a good thing.
What do you use AI for?
Do I use AI?
Speaker 1 (26:02):
for what do I use?
Yes do you know what?
Not a lot actually yeah, me tooyeah and I don't know if I'm
not a luddite I don't think I ambut I've just not seen the
needs.
So I love writing and that'swhat I would probably use it for
, but if that's a policy paperor kind of strategic plan or
something like that, but but whywould I want to deprive myself
(26:24):
of the creative process that Igo through to get there?
which is, which is what I would,which is what I would need to
do.
So I mean, we we will use it,obviously in terms of in
membership associations, for theway we perhaps analyze our data
and those kinds of things, butI can't see a way that it would
make my life better currently.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Yeah, yeah, I feel really intrigued.
I don't use it at all.
I've got something called AlOverview.
He seems very helpful on theinternet, but I've got a mate
who's an academic.
It's Al-I-I.
Oh.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
No, no, willem, that's it, no, anyway.
No, he's a well-publishedacademic.
No.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Anyway.
No, he's a well-publishedacademic.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Al Overview.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
No, not Al Overview.
Honestly, he's such a helpfulguy.
No, he's a reallywell-published academic.
This gentleman Not Al Ovevi, mymate, I'm not going to name him
, but he actually uses Al to.
He types in what would Ibrackets name have said on the
following topic, and then hegets told by the AI what he
would have said and then he justuses it.
(27:29):
Actually, I don't know aboutthat last bit.
He may not use it, but he'sjust curious to know what he
thinks about stuff.
Now and he's published.
He's well enough published.
I have done that.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
I have done all right .
Yeah, I'm a bit that much of anegotist.
I do put my own name in saywhat would I?
Speaker 2 (27:40):
yeah, all right, well , I have done that.
Were you surprised by theoutput?
It was sorry, this is a podcast, it was scary accurate oh, okay
, I mean, you're prettypredictable.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Yeah, I know, yeah, and obviously I don't speak on a
range of subjects, do do I?
We probably ought to do it forthe podcast.
We probably ought to do anentirely AI-driven podcast.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Didn't they send us a script that was entirely
Al-driven, al-driven.
We should get Al on, actuallyAl overview.
What's your thought on that?
Were you doing San Diego?
Very much so.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
Been before.
No first time in California.
Actually, I was corrected theother day because I was saying
no, I've been here before, I'vebeen in Seattle, and I was like
that's not California, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (28:22):
No, exactly, it's the same sign.
I think it's in.
Speaker 4 (28:26):
Mexico, don't start with Mexico.
I think it's a very similarvibe in Seattle and San Diego.
Okay, I was very, very, verysurprised and, yeah, loving it,
you've been here a few hours.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Have you been here before?
Speaker 3 (28:39):
No, so I went to LA first.
But yeah, san Diego, no, Ihaven't been to, and I've just
come from Phoenix, where it was30 degrees every day, blue sky,
sunshine.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
And I landed in San.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Diego and it was cold and cloudy, which takes me to
our Mexico point.
We're right by Mexico.
I've said this elsewherealready today we're right by
Mexico.
When did Mexico turn into Rill?
It makes no sense.
Rill is a British seaside,welsh seaside town that
basically is a bunch of staticcaravans in rain and kind of, is
(29:14):
Tijuana really like that?
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Can I bring this back to an ip podcast?
Is that okay?
I've really enjoyed this, butyeah if I just drag us back to
it, one of the, I would think,interesting things about the job
that you two do is that you'reseeing stuff coming over the
horizon, so you've got a senseof what's coming next.
What's coming next?
Speaker 4 (29:35):
I think there's a lot of there.
There's a rise in AIapplications, I think,
autonomous vehicles.
This is all public data, soobviously I'm only talking to
the data that is actuallyalready published.
So we also handle ParisConvention, which is before
they're published and obviouslywe can't comment on that.
But I think AI is growing inautonomous vehicle vehicles and
(29:57):
also to in the healthcare area,so biomedics as well.
But, as I said at the beginning, I tend to focus just on on the
ips in general and what I'venoticed is that william and I
did a couple of podcasts on theepo and the unitary pattern and
what I've noticed is that thevolume of grants coming out of
(30:18):
the EPO have been steadily at ahigh level and everyone was
predicting it was coming down.
It was coming down, but it'sstill going very strong.
We monitor this every week andit's really good to see how
Europe has a very, very largepool of inventors, all grant,
all innovating and then goingdown to the system to to file
(30:42):
their patents.
So I think that's what I'mseeing.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
I suspect that there'll be new innovation areas
that will come up and othersthat will disappear.
I think it's inevitable in anyinnovation.
If you look at something from50 years ago, technology has
advanced so much that there'llbe things that were developed
that we no longer use.
Yeah, and so I think it's justthe constant cycle of innovation
that continues to to be drivenby the people and the inventors,
(31:11):
and what they're learning nowand what will come in years to
come.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
So we're getting close to time.
There's only thing we've nottalked about that you
particularly wanted to talkabout in the podcast.
Speaker 4 (31:30):
Well, I just wanted to go off topic and because of
the hat and I have a really nicedad joke about hats, is that?
Speaker 1 (31:37):
okay, it's fine.
It's fine, it's PG.
It's PG, okay, cool.
Speaker 4 (31:41):
So one of our colleagues told us this this
week why does a canoe, when youturn it upside down, fit well in
your head?
Because it capsizes.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Oh no, Thank you so much, oh no.
I don't think we can't finishon that we can't finish on that.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
No, we can't finish on that, dad.
So you both said that you foundyourselves in the world of IP
by accident more than by design.
Yes, he's still laughing at hisjoke.
I'm going to talk long enough.
I'm going to talk long enoughthat he will recover that's my
plan.
I am in the world of IP byaccident.
I'm sure Gwilym probably neverattended to be a patent attorney
(32:19):
from the very outset.
I wanted to play football forWales, did you?
Yeah, well, you've ruined myquestion.
So I was going to ask you, ifyou weren't working in the world
of IP, what would be your greatpassion?
I'll be playing football, forthank you for getting there for
me so emma yes, if you wereworking in the world of ip, this
can't be any job.
It's not like what would beyour favorite.
(32:39):
There's something aroundanother passion that you have
that you could work in thatpassion okay, well, I used to
write songs, oh, wow, oh oh andI still do, but I don't manage
to complete them.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
So I shifted into poetry, so I had the creative
side of.
That is something that I'vealways loved, and I have a knack
for lyrics, which is why I havegravitated towards languages,
because the way that I learn isauditively as well as visually.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Do you write the lyrics and the music?
Speaker 3 (33:09):
Not the music.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Alright, I've got a musical collaborator for it, if
you want.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
Okay, oh.
Collaborative for if you want,okay.
Oh yeah, not me.
I'm quitting my job now.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
No, don't do that, andre.
How about you?
So I've just found out that weshare something in common.
So when you asked that question, I was like, what do I do?
And I remember that I almostchallenged my family into doing
something.
That they said, no, why are yougoing to do that?
That's just you're not going tomake any money.
That they said, no, why are yougoing to do that?
That's just you're not going tomake any money you're going to
(33:40):
be a poor.
So I wanted to be an actor andin Portugal you have this acting
conservatory or the officialacting school that you have to
do some tests to get in.
And I failed miserably.
But I used the text, a stand-upimprov segment from Rowan
Atkinson when he plays the devil, where he comes in and says I
(34:04):
am the devil, I know the sketch,yeah.
You can call me Toby.
Yeah, and I was in love withacting.
I think I've managed to find away in the role that I do in IP
to keep some sort of that alive.
So every time you interact withsomeone, you don't take this
the wrong way, but you have toput a mask.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Performative, performative.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
So that's me A failed actor and a reasonable
salesperson.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
I used to write lyrics Limey, you know I was in
a band for a wee while.
I'd go back there.
I think I was in a band for awee while, yeah, and I'd go back
there.
I think I was frustratedbecause none of my band mates
were serious enough to ever makea go of it and it all fell over
when they started gettinggirlfriends and having children
and stuff like that there's anEd Sheeran song about that.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
What's your best lyric?
Speaker 1 (34:52):
oh, he's fat and he wobbles as he's on his way to
work what it was a song calledthe fat businessman.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
It was an.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Oh, he's fat and he wobbles as he's on his way to
work.
What it was?
A song called the Fat.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Businessman, it was an observational piece.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he's fat and he wobbles as
he's on his way to work.
I could sing it actually, butI'm not going to.
Oh, come on who was your muse.
What was my muse?
There were multiple muses inthat Multiple muses.
There are multiple musics inthat multiple musics.
I think that's probably a greatplace to end the podcast, isn't
it?
Speaker 2 (35:17):
I think I'll go back to Andre's joke.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Thank you both for coming on, it's been an absolute
pleasure.
Thank you for having us andenjoy the rest of winter high
NTA high NTA.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
We'll see you next time.
We've got some news, haven't we?
Gwilym, do you want to breakthe news?
Can I break the news?
You can break the news.
Go on.
Are you ready?
Can I do a drumroll?
That's awful.
Where's the drum?
I need a new drum.
I thought you were a musician.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
It's a table Inter 2026 is going to be in London.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
How amazing's that?
Yeah, well, it means we donhappy not to fly.
My jet lag is astonishing.
What any plans?
Are there any things that weshould?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
do to come on.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
We know we've been brainstorming we've been having
a little thing, haven't we?
What, what, what?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
we've been thinking about everything we're about to
say we are committed tohappening next year exactly
whatever we everything, yeah.
Battle of the bands yeah, it'sgonna happen.
Is it because?
Speaker 1 (00:40):
inter likes its bands .
There's the opposition, isn'tthere.
So what?
What we're thinking of issomething, maybe on a different
evening, when we get four orfive IP bands together, yeah,
and they have a war Indeed, yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Indeed, and then I think, yours, one, two, three,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Pub quiz.
We've got to do a traditionalBritish pub quiz, haven't we?
Yeah, nice big pub somewhere.
Get a few Inter teams upourselves.
An ip quiz master.
It's a big pub to take a 10 000person quiz.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yeah, that might be a bit ambitious, mate.
That's fine a lot of prizes aswell but we're working.
What else do we talk about?
Oh yeah, obviously gonnaactually be podcasting again.
Yeah, um, we can.
We can maybe set the agenda forthe podcasting space.
We're in a beautiful booth thistime, but we've been talking
about sofas minibars.
Yeah, opinions getting reallyexcited about some of this.
It it's going to look likeGraham Norton meets Def Leppard.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Yeah, so treat our guests in the way that they
should be treated for appearingon such a prestigious podcast,
and I think we should hire aLondon bus and podcast from a
bus, podcast from a bus, podcastfrom a bus Dressed as beef
eaters.
Yes, this is so cool.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
We're absolutely committed to this.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Bring it on.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod
and you are listening to apodcast on intellectual property
brought to you by the CharteredInstitute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Hi Lee how you going Enjoying America Very much.
So yeah, Second time here.
Learning experience, isn't it?
It is very much.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
So yeah, yeah, yeah.
What is half and half?
Oh, that's the funny milkything, isn't it?
It's a little pot.
What is it?
I don't really know.
All I know is that if someonemakes you a drink with it, it
doesn't taste very good.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
It kind of swirls around on the top, it splits up
and everything, doesn't it?
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
It's more a story about when we were in Atlanta
last year, because my lovely barperson in the hotel I was
staying at, who told me his namewas Bernard but I would
obviously call him Bernard yes,indeed, and he loved that made
me an Irish coffee with it andit was quite possibly the worst
trip I've ever had in my life.
It was maybe four or five shotsof espresso and then that stuff
(02:49):
just poured in as well, about ahalf and half.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
I do think, though, that I sound very quaint when I
say it.
I'm sure Americans like ussaying half and half, because I
don't think that's how they sayit here.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
I don't do accents.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
I'm not, I'm stopping you cut accents.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Horrific attempt at American accent because I've
also written down my notes forBantz small dodgy sausage.
Tell us about that oh, it'sjust.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
It's just the breakfast at our hotel.
It's a full American breakfast,which is bacon that's been
incinerated, right, these funnysort of half-sized sausages that
seem to not taste like meat,and rock-solid scrambled egg.
That's it, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
I've done quite well with the food here.
Yeah, I've been having avocado,avocado toast, toast.
It's difficult not to get abreakfast with eggs.
Anyone notice?
Everything's got an egg or twoand you're only supposed to eat
two eggs a week, why love ofchickens?
Okay, don't know, don't know.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
That's why I read that song, yeah I thought there
was some health reasons for thatyeah it might be.
Yeah, so podcasting there, someexciting guests on next, but I
want to carry on the bants byway of introduction.
Oh, you're bants now yeah, yeah, yeah so, uh, we were doing a
little bit of planning yesterdayabout the podcast series.
Yes, and I happened to say toyou oh, on the plane on the way
over, I um, I saw andre and yousaid to me andre, who's andre?
(04:10):
Andre, the giant, andre, who'sandre?
Speaker 2 (04:13):
you said I saw andre the, and I interrupted you at
that moment, thinking it's gottabe giant right.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
And then and then andre, the guy from rws yeah,
yeah and then, I explained it,it's andre from
Speaker 2 (04:23):
rws.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
And then about 20 minutes later I think it was you
were explaining where you were.
I'm going to dinner with him,you're going to dinner with
Andre.
So how did you not know it wasone and the same person?
You were lagged.
We're coming on to jet lag.
Yeah, you were lagged.
We've got some Andrade.
Is that the right Say it for meAndre.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
So it's Andre, andrade, Okay.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
But Andre.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
Andrade is just as acceptable.
It's as close as I'm going toget with my tongue, okay.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
And Emma Browning.
I've probably got that right,emma, haven't I, you have?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, cool.
So welcome both to the podcast,thank you.
Thank you, you're here Talk tous all about who you are and
what you do, but do you want todo your jet lag bit first?
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Yeah, what's this?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
jet lag app.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
So my brother recently went travelling and
downloaded an app because he wasgoing to Australia, called Time
Shifter, and I've been tellingeverybody about it.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
Right.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
So you put in your flights and where you're going,
and then it will develop a planfor when you should get bright
light, when you should wearsunglasses outside, when you
should wear sunglasses outside,when you should drink caffeine
and when you should sleep inorder to beat jet lag.
And it worked.
It worked.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
It worked.
Wow, I just sleep is what I do.
Well, that's what you'll tellme.
Well, I don't sleep on theplane, so that's the issue.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
When it tells me to sleep for 10 hours.
I'm not going to sleep.
That's the tricky bit, isn't it?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Because I got advised on jet lag once by a London
taxi driver who said it's allabout getting sunshine on the
back of your knees, apparentlyso.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
I thought it was in your eyes.
I know you'd think, wouldn'tyou, but I've just been lying in
the pavement.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Wearing shorts.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Oh, that was you, wasn't it?
Laughter, I just stepped over.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Yeah, everyone did, everyone did.
I got some money, though itwasn't all bad.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Yeah, so welcome both to the podcast.
Who wants to start?
Tell us who you are and tell usyour story.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
So we'll do the opposite of being a gentleman
and I'll start.
So.
My name's Andre, so I'mactually Portuguese and British,
so I've been living in fivecountries, 45 next month and I
work in translation and IPservices.
(06:34):
I'm actually a translator.
It's always very difficult tomeet law firm patent attorneys
because I am not an attorney,I'm not an agent, I am a
translator.
So I was sent into the IPindustry through working in law
firms from a commercial point ofview and also working in
service providers for nearly 15years.
(06:55):
And I found my calling actuallybecause I didn't even know what
a trademark was when I startedas a trademark watcher 15 years
ago and I cannot imagine notworking in IP now I know the
feeling.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
My story is about 13 years old and it's a similar
story.
I can't imagine not beingaround now.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
And then when people say, oh, what sector do you work
?
I was like every sector, it'sin everything that you never.
Oh, but the automotive sectoris ending.
I was like, yeah, but there'sall the other sectors that IP is
involved.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Did you come in because you were a translator,
was translating something thatyou were already?
Speaker 4 (07:31):
doing, yeah, so I was sold the dream that if you
speak languages, your money isgoing to be worth your weight in
gold Right and once yougraduate as a translator in
2009,.
Globalization has hiteverywhere and your languages
are not that obscure.
I speak Portuguese, spanish,english and French, and there
(07:53):
was a lot of competition and alot of people doing a lot better
than I do, um, so I couldn'tfind a job.
I went back to catering.
I worked in catering for 10years, uh, I went back to
catering and then I found a jobas a translator, trademark
watcher, well, and I was like awatcher what is a watcher?
I'm gonna?
I'm gonna watch what?
And so I went in with an openmind and I didn't realize I was
jumping in.
Sounds a bit sinister, doesn'tit?
(08:14):
Well, at least like a bit pervy.
But, um, I was going into.
I was going into a company thathad such a rich history, um, so
it doesn't exist anymore.
That's probably as common withsome of these companies.
So the company was calledtrademarks directory Service.
It was actually founded by WildBoar Gibbons, who also don't
exist anymore.
I remember TMDS and they hadthis history that in 1941, they
(08:38):
started a watching service, aworldwide watching service to
help Scotch Whiskey manage theirbrands around the world, and I
was fascinated by that andthat's where it started.
That's where it started.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
During a a war.
There was a war going on.
Little brief diversion just tobring Gwilym in.
It must be nice to have twoSpanish speakers on the podcast
yeah, I'm getting there.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
I'm getting there.
You know who we should bring inour other guest.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Oh sorry, emma, it's alright, I just wanted to bring
Willem in.
He's a fledgling Spanishspeaker.
Yeah, it's not going well.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
So I'm Emma Browning.
I'm a key account manager atRWFs and I kind of got into this
role through my languages.
So I studied French and Italianat university, love being
around different cultures anddifferent languages and I wanted
to be around them.
I didn't necessarily need touse them in my day-to-day, so I
joined as a project manager so Iwould manage the projects that
(09:35):
we would handle and then throughthat because I again with my
languages and communication, Ilove meeting people and getting
into client relations, so Imoved across to sort of get into
that role and again, like Andre, I'm right where I need to be.
I love IP.
I think, there's so much that isgoing on in the world that is
affected by IP and it's exciting.
(09:56):
And then all of the challengesthat different corporates or law
firms have is reallyfascinating to try and see how
different ones develop strategyto face the challenges that are
in the world today.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
So should we start off with why you guys are at
INTA.
So what's it all about for youbeing here?
Speaker 4 (10:14):
So this is my.
I was doing the math the otherday, so I started INTA in
Orlando in 2016, but I only havesix inters under my belt
because we went through theCOVID period and obviously there
was a big lag there, but for meit's always about three things,
meaning making newrelationships, strengthening the
(10:36):
existing ones, and one thatsometimes gets lost and maybe
for non-US attendees doesn'tmake a lot of sense, is about
the learning.
So, every time we have someonenew coming in from whatever
company I'm working at, I alwaysrecommend in your schedule have
a look at the plenary sessions,have a look at the talks, go in
(10:57):
there, listen to what they'resaying.
It's a good way for you toexpand your knowledge about
other things, and so I thinkthis is a lot about learning and
meeting and keeping yourrelationships.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
And you've got a nice collection of uh ribbons on
your.
I love the.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Remember last year we collected as many ribbons as we
could yeah, we will do a littlebit, yeah, so I like your
ribbons here, but yeah table.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Table topic uh meet moderator.
What was?
Speaker 4 (11:20):
your table topic.
So I had one yesterday and Ihave one few hours from now, but
yesterday was ribbon twice then.
Well, yeah, I didn't want tolike overshadow anything, so the
typical topic was reallyinteresting.
It's about how in-house patentattorneys or law firm patent
attorneys are utilizing ai tomodernize their workflows, so
it's really really good we had agood turnout.
(11:41):
That was the the full typicaltopic and we had a very long
discussion for two hours abouteverything that everyone is
doing, what kind of things thatthey need to be worried about.
It's not just about picking thethe most uh, easy and cheap
option and train your people,your team, to to use it
correctly.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
It's really interesting, but um yeah, and
then the other one I wassupporting the women Women's
Leadership Initiative.
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Yeah, I think that's really important and we have at
RWS a significant increase inteam members that are in
leadership positions that arewomen, and RWS obviously
supports the diversity D-E-I,exclusivity, equity, equity,
(12:30):
equity.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Or equality, I hear both.
Actually they're notinterchangeable as well.
No, you've told me that they dotend to be interchangeable.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
It's something like looking over a fence, wasn't it?
Speaker 1 (12:39):
That's the exact story.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
There's something about fences in that.
Have you been to Inter before?
Speaker 3 (12:45):
No, this is my first time.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
What's your reflections?
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Well, so far, there are lots of people, lots of.
You see everywhere, evenoutside of the conference.
Everyone's wearing their band,everybody is in a bar and having
discussions.
You're in your hotel, you cansee loads of people who are
attending Inter.
You can feel that everyone ishere with one purpose in mind to
connect, and I think that'sgreat and really important.
(13:13):
To meet people in person, youdevelop relationships that are
completely different than justdoing something virtually, and
especially after the pandemic.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yeah, it's nice to be back, isn't?
Speaker 4 (13:24):
it.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
Better way.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
And have you ever just got to random people on the
street wearing a lanyard andintroduced yourself yet?
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Not yet.
I mean, I only landed lastnight, so not much opportunity
at this point You're stillworking for the jet lag.
Quite right, but I didn't haveany, so we're good.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
So tell us a bit more about RWS and what it is, what
it does, because you saidtranslation and IP services, so
develop that.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
Do you want to start?
I can start.
Yeah, go for it.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
So we will assist with services throughout the IP
lifecycle.
So we're starting in R&D so wemight perform searches to
identify that the invention isnovel.
We'll then help through foreignfiling so the translation and
filing.
We'll help with the renewalsthat have to be kept up with
(14:17):
your IP maintenance and anyrecordals that are required
should you have an acquisitionor a divestiture.
And then finally, furthersearches that basically follow
the passionate life cycle over20 years.
We don't deal with passionateprosecution.
That's something that webelieve law firms should
continue to do and leveragethose expertise.
(14:39):
So we very much work alongsidea lot of our law firms.
What can you?
Speaker 4 (14:46):
add Well, I'm more of a new host.
Hello, what's going?
Speaker 2 (14:49):
on here.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Oh sorry, Can't help myself.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
So I'm very much around the history.
I think that that helps withthe storytelling.
So what I would add to theperfect description and
introduction to what RWS does isjust that in 1958 there was a
company that was set up that wasfocusing in pattern translation
, so that was Randall.
The owner or the founder namewas Randall.
(15:16):
And then at the same time therewas Walcott and Co in the
states which was focusing inpattern search.
They probably met at an interand they got together and they
decided to do Randall WalcottServices and they became RWS.
What I've seen change in RWS ishow much focus we now give to
make sure that our messaging isas clear as possible that we are
(15:40):
a support services company.
We are the extension to a lawfirm's team.
We are not here to replace, weare here to empower.
This is a really clichesentence.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
I see you've got the T-shirt on as well, with that
written on it.
Speaker 4 (15:55):
It's a good look.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
No, it's important.
I think, as a user of thesevarious services and things,
they're really, really important.
There's stuff that privatepractice isn't geared up to do.
I don't think anyone expectsany particular competition.
It's really good dovetailing ofthe way these two things work
together.
I mean, the translation one'san interesting one.
That landscape has changedmassively over the last what?
(16:19):
20 years, maybe For more thanone reason, because long before
Google Translate came along, wehad the London Agreement also
reducing language requirementsand things.
But it still remains a reallyrelevant and important part of
the offering, I think.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
I think it does, but it also depends where you're
protecting your rights.
So obviously the perceptionaround the quality that's needed
for patent translation in theEuropean grand stage is becoming
more and more, especially withthe introduction of the Unite
patent and the confusing messagethat the BO has provided on
their website that thetranslation has no legal effect
(16:54):
but at the same time you can'tuse a machine translation.
It is confusing.
We do get clients asking us canI just use any translation,
just put something there?
That's not going to be an issue.
And I said no, we believe thatyou have to keep a quality
translation.
When you're in the BCT,national phase entry, you don't
have the patent yet.
Then everyone's still a bit moreconcerned.
(17:15):
But the shift that I see in theindustry is that a few years
ago the cost of doing a nationalphase entry 40 to 60 percent of
the price would be thetranslation.
Because of the advance of aiand the, the different
technology that will increasethe output and the speed of a
translator to perform thataction, I think we will see that
(17:38):
percentage reduce to almostjust an add-on to the whole
thing.
So it's becoming more and morecommoditized.
It is where it's going and wejust have to make sure that, as
the technology evolves, thehuman is there to support it and
making sure that it's doing theright thing.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
So how much is technology an opportunity and
how much is it a threat?
Speaker 4 (18:01):
So my next table topic is about genuine
intelligence, and that'ssomething that RWS coined, so it
was a term that we've come upwith.
You have artificialintelligence, you have human
intelligence, and where theyintersect is where you have the
best.
So in the middle is the virtue,et cetera, et cetera.
I think technology is 50-50,because if you don't behave in a
(18:29):
good way, or if you don't lookat the technology advancements
and legislation doesn't followwith how much quick technology
evolves, you are probably goingto find that it's more of a
threat instead of an opportunityto make everyone's lives easier
yeah, you gotta assume it'scoming and go with them.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
We've emma.
We've talked about this beforeabout where does ai fit into all
of it?
What are you seeing peopleasking for?
Where is it being useful so far?
Speaker 3 (18:56):
I think, especially with translations.
If you think about how clientsbudgets are looked at much more
closely now and you're beingasked to do more with less, how
can we make sure that you'reable to achieve the maximum that
you require with your budgetand still file where you want to
(19:17):
file?
So we'll always look attechnology as something that is
incredibly important and, ashumans, you're always looking
for the quickest route to get towhere you need to get to.
So if something is going tohelp you achieve that and still
achieve the same quality, whywould you not introduce
something into that process?
But then there are lots ofconcerns that clients have
(19:38):
around security that clientshave around security.
So making sure that all of thepolicy and procedures are in
place in order to be able tooffer such a service and meet
the requirements that clientshave is the first undertaking,
and reassuring clients thattheir data is protected and that
their competitors aren't goingto benefit from it as well is
(20:00):
something that I think is reallyclose to clients at the moment.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
The data is interesting because it's come up
on other podcasts that we'vedone so.
I work in the UK with quite alot of other association chief
execs and data sovereignty isprobably the biggie for us at
the moment because we've allmoved to the cloud many years
ago.
We're now being encouraged to Iwon't use brand names and stuff
.
That would be terribly unfairbut we're now being encouraged
(20:24):
to I won't use brand names andstuff.
That would be terribly unfair,but we're now being included
encouraged to move our data toleading sort of web services and
and I was a bit nervous aboutthat because you know, if that's
, if that's if we're in the ukand my data is being held in the
states, what does that mean forme in terms of ownership?
Is that similar?
Is that a similar sort of story?
Speaker 3 (20:42):
yes, in, just quite simply.
But I think that every clientis going to have their own
security questionnaire andrequirements that need to be met
, and every country is different.
If you look at the eu and gdpr,it's very different to the us.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
So, taking that into consideration and ensuring that
we can address and reassureclients that what we're doing is
held within a secure and do youmanage that by having your data
in sort of one or twojurisdictions or do you have
like a multi jurisdictionalapproach?
You're getting quite technical,I'm just interested in this.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
I'm not sure if we would be in a position to answer
or even know I probably couldfind the information out for you
.
That's right.
I don't have it to hand thiscloud thing On a podcast that's
going to be held to my word.
Come back to find me.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
I love the fact that we're now trying to work out
where the cloud is.
The whole point of the cloud is.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
it's not somewhere.
Now you're worried about whosecloud?
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Do you know?
I don't know what the origin.
By the way, it's slightlyperipheral.
I don't know what the origin ofthe word, the term cloud is,
but I'm pretty sure, having seenthousands in my job, that
basically they have a picture ofa phone, one end and the beacon
, and then the other end wouldbe a phone and the beacon.
In between they just draw acloud because they don't know
(22:07):
what's there.
I'm pretty sure that's why it'scalled the cloud.
But the whole point is itshouldn't matter where it is and
actually I do, having done someof the tech on this.
It's odd that it might be beingbrought back to geographical
locations.
I can see why it's interesting,isn't it?
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
I mean, it's always on a server somewhere, and I
think that's where it's animaginary cloud.
So I know that there's somelocations where the servers are
that are more complicated, andso I think why geography should
remain, just because it'sphysical.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
So obviously you've got lots of clients and you talk
to a lot of people.
What are they asking for?
That's not there yet.
What are the impossible asksyou're hearing from people?
Speaker 4 (22:53):
So I think we heard that from you as well.
So there's a lot of requestsfor good patent drafting tools
that can help, not replace thepatent attorney in drafting it.
They are looking at companiesthat have AI into their suite of
products to come up withsomething.
(23:14):
They're also asking more andmore for integration to existing
products more than can youbring me the new one-stop shop
that I'd have to move everythingover.
Yeah, so I think we saw a shiftfrom as long as I have an IPMS,
then everyone.
I just have to sell the IPMSand then everything will be with
(23:35):
me.
Ip management system.
Ip management system.
Thank you very much.
Podcast pro.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Matt Podcast pro.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
We went from trying to get the one-stop solution to
what fits with your team andwhat fits with your work and
they said well, I want this fromso-and-so and I want that from
that provider and I want to keepthis because we've spent a lot
of money and time building thisand training the team.
Can you make sure that we stayin the same environment but we
(24:04):
benefit from the extra servicesthat you have?
And so integration, I think, ison everyone's mouth and yeah,
so I think drafting ai andintegration emma I think as well
with the drafting part.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
It's not just having the tool, it's making sure that
it doesn't hinder.
So a lot of chemical clientsfind that the AI and the other
lands are struggling with thosechemical structures and there's
no value in adding all of thatin.
Some clients feel that theydon't want the tool.
(24:43):
They trust the humans that theyhave within their business that
know the product so well andhave that now that they have
developed and honed over many,many years and they don't see ai
as something that can disrupt.
But I'd be interested in twoyears time to see if we're still
saying the same thing.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yeah, I think at the moment we've seen personal
anecdotal, you see AI, stuffthat isn't very good in various
areas the drafting tools youtalk about and the analysis
tools.
One shouldn't therefore say, oh, it's not working.
It's just learning.
The whole thing's learning soquickly.
Actually, this is a new thought.
I've always said that thepatent system is brilliant
(25:25):
because one of its lovely sideeffects is that it publishes
every scientific advance that'sbeen made in the last 150 years.
It's published, that's whatit's there for and obviously
protected, yada, yada, but it'sall there.
I was just actually thinkingthat originally that was to
balance the monopoly but givingsomething back to the public,
etc.
And that's kind of, as we allknow, that's the policy then.
(25:46):
I don't think it was ever.
This policy clearly wasn'tdeveloped for a new world, but
basically learning opportunitiesfor machines of every aspect of
human technology as a result ofthat system is a lovely add-on,
I hope.
I hope it's a good thing.
What do you use AI for?
Do I use AI?
Speaker 1 (26:02):
for what do I use?
Yes do you know what?
Not a lot actually yeah, me tooyeah and I don't know if I'm
not a luddite I don't think I ambut I've just not seen the
needs.
So I love writing and that'swhat I would probably use it for
, but if that's a policy paperor kind of strategic plan or
something like that, but but whywould I want to deprive myself
(26:24):
of the creative process that Igo through to get there?
which is, which is what I would,which is what I would need to
do.
So I mean, we we will use it,obviously in terms of in
membership associations, for theway we perhaps analyze our data
and those kinds of things, butI can't see a way that it would
make my life better currently.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Yeah, yeah, I feel really intrigued.
I don't use it at all.
I've got something called AlOverview.
He seems very helpful on theinternet, but I've got a mate
who's an academic.
It's Al-I-I.
Oh.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
No, no, willem, that's it, no, anyway.
No, he's a well-publishedacademic.
No.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Anyway.
No, he's a well-publishedacademic.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Al Overview.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
No, not Al Overview.
Honestly, he's such a helpfulguy.
No, he's a reallywell-published academic.
This gentleman Not Al Ovevi, mymate, I'm not going to name him
, but he actually uses Al to.
He types in what would Ibrackets name have said on the
following topic, and then hegets told by the AI what he
would have said and then he justuses it.
(27:29):
Actually, I don't know aboutthat last bit.
He may not use it, but he'sjust curious to know what he
thinks about stuff.
Now and he's published.
He's well enough published.
I have done that.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
I have done all right .
Yeah, I'm a bit that much of anegotist.
I do put my own name in saywhat would I?
Speaker 2 (27:40):
yeah, all right, well , I have done that.
Were you surprised by theoutput?
It was sorry, this is a podcast, it was scary accurate oh, okay
, I mean, you're prettypredictable.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Yeah, I know, yeah, and obviously I don't speak on a
range of subjects, do do I?
We probably ought to do it forthe podcast.
We probably ought to do anentirely AI-driven podcast.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Didn't they send us a script that was entirely
Al-driven, al-driven.
We should get Al on, actuallyAl overview.
What's your thought on that?
Were you doing San Diego?
Very much so.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
Been before.
No first time in California.
Actually, I was corrected theother day because I was saying
no, I've been here before, I'vebeen in Seattle, and I was like
that's not California, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (28:22):
No, exactly, it's the same sign.
I think it's in.
Speaker 4 (28:26):
Mexico, don't start with Mexico.
I think it's a very similarvibe in Seattle and San Diego.
Okay, I was very, very, verysurprised and, yeah, loving it,
you've been here a few hours.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Have you been here before?
Speaker 3 (28:39):
No, so I went to LA first.
But yeah, san Diego, no, Ihaven't been to, and I've just
come from Phoenix, where it was30 degrees every day, blue sky,
sunshine.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
And I landed in San.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Diego and it was cold and cloudy, which takes me to
our Mexico point.
We're right by Mexico.
I've said this elsewherealready today we're right by
Mexico.
When did Mexico turn into Rill?
It makes no sense.
Rill is a British seaside,welsh seaside town that
basically is a bunch of staticcaravans in rain and kind of, is
(29:14):
Tijuana really like that?
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Can I bring this back to an ip podcast?
Is that okay?
I've really enjoyed this, butyeah if I just drag us back to
it, one of the, I would think,interesting things about the job
that you two do is that you'reseeing stuff coming over the
horizon, so you've got a senseof what's coming next.
What's coming next?
Speaker 4 (29:35):
I think there's a lot of there.
There's a rise in AIapplications, I think,
autonomous vehicles.
This is all public data, soobviously I'm only talking to
the data that is actuallyalready published.
So we also handle ParisConvention, which is before
they're published and obviouslywe can't comment on that.
But I think AI is growing inautonomous vehicle vehicles and
(29:57):
also to in the healthcare area,so biomedics as well.
But, as I said at the beginning, I tend to focus just on on the
ips in general and what I'venoticed is that william and I
did a couple of podcasts on theepo and the unitary pattern and
what I've noticed is that thevolume of grants coming out of
(30:18):
the EPO have been steadily at ahigh level and everyone was
predicting it was coming down.
It was coming down, but it'sstill going very strong.
We monitor this every week andit's really good to see how
Europe has a very, very largepool of inventors, all grant,
all innovating and then goingdown to the system to to file
(30:42):
their patents.
So I think that's what I'mseeing.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
I suspect that there'll be new innovation areas
that will come up and othersthat will disappear.
I think it's inevitable in anyinnovation.
If you look at something from50 years ago, technology has
advanced so much that there'llbe things that were developed
that we no longer use.
Yeah, and so I think it's justthe constant cycle of innovation
that continues to to be drivenby the people and the inventors,
(31:11):
and what they're learning nowand what will come in years to
come.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
So we're getting close to time.
There's only thing we've nottalked about that you
particularly wanted to talkabout in the podcast.
Speaker 4 (31:30):
Well, I just wanted to go off topic and because of
the hat and I have a really nicedad joke about hats, is that?
Speaker 1 (31:37):
okay, it's fine.
It's fine, it's PG.
It's PG, okay, cool.
Speaker 4 (31:41):
So one of our colleagues told us this this
week why does a canoe, when youturn it upside down, fit well in
your head?
Because it capsizes.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Oh no, Thank you so much, oh no.
I don't think we can't finishon that we can't finish on that.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
No, we can't finish on that, dad.
So you both said that you foundyourselves in the world of IP
by accident more than by design.
Yes, he's still laughing at hisjoke.
I'm going to talk long enough.
I'm going to talk long enoughthat he will recover that's my
plan.
I am in the world of IP byaccident.
I'm sure Gwilym probably neverattended to be a patent attorney
(32:19):
from the very outset.
I wanted to play football forWales, did you?
Yeah, well, you've ruined myquestion.
So I was going to ask you, ifyou weren't working in the world
of IP, what would be your greatpassion?
I'll be playing football, forthank you for getting there for
me so emma yes, if you wereworking in the world of ip, this
can't be any job.
It's not like what would beyour favorite.
(32:39):
There's something aroundanother passion that you have
that you could work in thatpassion okay, well, I used to
write songs, oh, wow, oh oh andI still do, but I don't manage
to complete them.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
So I shifted into poetry, so I had the creative
side of.
That is something that I'vealways loved, and I have a knack
for lyrics, which is why I havegravitated towards languages,
because the way that I learn isauditively as well as visually.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Do you write the lyrics and the music?
Speaker 3 (33:09):
Not the music.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Alright, I've got a musical collaborator for it, if
you want.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
Okay, oh.
Collaborative for if you want,okay.
Oh yeah, not me.
I'm quitting my job now.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
No, don't do that, andre.
How about you?
So I've just found out that weshare something in common.
So when you asked that question, I was like, what do I do?
And I remember that I almostchallenged my family into doing
something.
That they said, no, why are yougoing to do that?
That's just you're not going tomake any money.
That they said, no, why are yougoing to do that?
That's just you're not going tomake any money you're going to
(33:40):
be a poor.
So I wanted to be an actor andin Portugal you have this acting
conservatory or the officialacting school that you have to
do some tests to get in.
And I failed miserably.
But I used the text, a stand-upimprov segment from Rowan
Atkinson when he plays the devil, where he comes in and says I
(34:04):
am the devil, I know the sketch,yeah.
You can call me Toby.
Yeah, and I was in love withacting.
I think I've managed to find away in the role that I do in IP
to keep some sort of that alive.
So every time you interact withsomeone, you don't take this
the wrong way, but you have toput a mask.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Performative, performative.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
So that's me A failed actor and a reasonable
salesperson.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
I used to write lyrics Limey, you know I was in
a band for a wee while.
I'd go back there.
I think I was in a band for awee while, yeah, and I'd go back
there.
I think I was frustratedbecause none of my band mates
were serious enough to ever makea go of it and it all fell over
when they started gettinggirlfriends and having children
and stuff like that there's anEd Sheeran song about that.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
What's your best lyric?
Speaker 1 (34:52):
oh, he's fat and he wobbles as he's on his way to
work what it was a song calledthe fat businessman.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
It was an.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Oh, he's fat and he wobbles as he's on his way to
work.
What it was?
A song called the Fat.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Businessman, it was an observational piece.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he's fat and he wobbles as
he's on his way to work.
I could sing it actually, butI'm not going to.
Oh, come on who was your muse.
What was my muse?
There were multiple muses inthat Multiple muses.
There are multiple musics inthat multiple musics.
I think that's probably a greatplace to end the podcast, isn't
it?
Speaker 2 (35:17):
I think I'll go back to Andre's joke.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Thank you both for coming on, it's been an absolute
pleasure.
Thank you for having us andenjoy the rest of winter high
NTA high NTA.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
We'll see you next time.
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