June 16, 2025 • 22 mins
Step into the fascinating world of global intellectual property protection with Charles Randolph and Brian Beckham from the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO). What begins as an annual update on WIPO's activities quickly transforms into a revealing conversation about the organization's far-reaching influence on the intellectual property landscape.
Charles, who heads WIPO's industry and NGO relations, shares how the organization manages relationships with over 300 accredited associations worldwide, coordinating specialists, organizing events, and facilitating crucial connections across the entire IP spectrum. Meanwhile, Brian offers captivating insights into the evolution of domain name disputes since the internet's early days. As head of WIPO's Internet Dispute Resolution team, he explains how their work has shifted from handling simple domain squatters to combating sophisticated phishing campaigns and fraud, especially as AI tools advance.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I got a nasty letter from Washington saying you need
to come back to Washington orwe'll never promote you again
because you've spent too muchtime overseas.
Lee Davis and Gwilym Robertsare the two IPs in a pod and you
are listening to a podcast onintellectual property brought to
you by the Chartered Instituteof Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Institute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
So we've got time now for what's become an annual one
for us the annual WIPO podcast.
Oh yeah, it's the big leaguenow.
Yeah, the big league I mean, wedid a WIPO podcast at Atlanta
last year, so this is ouranniversary WIPO podcast.
It's like the World Cup ofPatents WIPO, isn't it?
So we've got Charles and Brianwith us.
Charles, do you want tointroduce yourself first?
Shall we go with you?
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Certainly, charles Randolph.
I'm the head of the sectionthat deals with industry and NGO
relations at WIPO and this sitswithin the external relations
division.
So all the types of liaisonwork with groups, like yours,
with groups, like Inter, etcetera.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Yeah, we talk a lot, don't we?
In terms of email and stufflike that.
It's nice to meet you in person.
Pleasure, Pleasure.
We've met in person.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
Yes, we don't talk about it.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
No, no, no absolutely not.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
No, absolutely not.
Okay, carry on, we'll talkabout that later.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Brian, First of all, thank you so much, gentlemen,
for inviting us.
My name is Brian Beckham.
I head up our Internet DisputeResolution team at WIPO and
primarily people here at INTAwill know that for the UDRP,
which is the Uniform Domain NameDispute Resolution Policy which
helps brand owners reclaiminfringing domain names, and
then, of course, we're involvedin policy talks in the Internet
(01:43):
space and coordinate closelywith our INTA colleagues on
those types of matters Cool.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
That sounds like really exciting stuff to get
into.
Should we talk a little bitabout the NGO sort of
stakeholder relationship side ofit first.
Charles, is that perhaps a niceplace to start?
How many relationships does anorganisation like WIPO have?
It must have many, manyrelationships.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
It does Technically.
Wipo has over 300 officiallyaccredited ngo or industry
associations, but they'reapproximately, I would say, a
half dozen to a dozen that areactually very, very active.
Sipa into into, for example, isone of our most active industry
associations yeah, cool anddaily, day-to-day, weekly basis.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
What's your gig?
What are you doing?
Speaker 1 (02:26):
What would I be doing ?
I would be receivingdelegations in Geneva, making
sure that specialists from thedifferent associations matched
up with our specialists, settingup schedules, organizing events
.
I would be coordinating teamsfrom WIPO coming out to events
like this.
Coordinating teams from WIPOcoming out to events like this.
(02:47):
So they wanted a specialistlike Brian to speak on his
topics, or someone to speak on,say, the Madrid system or other
things.
So it's quite a bit of liaisonwork and I think what's really
interesting about it for me isthat it involves the entire
organization of WIPO, so it'snot just one section.
We have the copyrights, we havethe trademarks, we have the
patents, we have the arbitrationand mediation.
(03:08):
There's a whole gamut ofactivities and it's a really fun
job because you get to livewith people all across the
spectrum.
Are you on the road a lot?
No, actually I'm not, not sooften.
Oh, really no not as often asyou would think Supporting many
colleagues on the road quite abit, yes, Okay.
And then receiving.
We receive, I would say,probably 12 formal delegations
(03:32):
for day-long visits at WIPO eachyear.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
So bringing you in.
Brian, my understanding of yourarea is quite limited, so in my
head it's so.
I remember the early days ofthe internet it's sad being that
old, isn't it and there werethings that domain name
squatters, where people wouldperhaps get in first even before
a brand had um thought aboutprotecting its identity.
Is it that sort of thing, orhas it moved on significantly?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
it's, it's largely that sort of thing.
So we we actually just lastmonth in geneva we hosted a
conference where we commemoratedthe 25th anniversary of the
drpP, and in preparing for thatwe went over some of the history
, and there was a lot of peoplearound here will know an article
in Wired magazine where thejournalist went to register
McDonald'scom because it wasfreely available started down
(04:17):
the path of exploring what doesit take to get a domain name,
how do they deal with clasheswith trademarks and so on, and
at its core, the problem remainsthe same.
So brand owners can reclaimdomain names that have been
acquired by someone before theycould get to it.
And it's evolved a little bitover the years to where in the
past you would see,pay-per-click advertising was
(04:40):
quite popular in one phase, justextortion, you know, pay me
some money or I'll put up somethings on this website that you
don't like, and that stillexists.
But we're seeing a much biggerintersection these days, which
has been really kind ofaccelerated by advancements in
AI tools.
But already going back a coupleof years, we've seen a much
(05:03):
sharper intersection between thework we do and cybersecurity,
phishing, fraud.
So there's quicker ways toaddress that, but a lot of brand
owners will still file a casewith us if there's a phishing
campaign on the back of a domainname, so that they can
permanently keep that name outof the hands of infringers in
the future name out of the handsof infringers in the future.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Can we just track back to something you said
fairly early on in that piece,and that was the nexus between
domain name registrationmanagement and trademarks,
Because I think people thinkthat they're one and the same
and clearly they're not, arethey?
So how do the two come together?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Really, it's up to individual brand owners and
businesses to pull them together.
There are a small handful of IPoffices and national domain
name registries, so you guysmight be familiar with uk for
the UK namespace, ch forSwitzerland, where we live.
Some IP offices and the nationalregistries help provide
(06:00):
information to a trademarkapplicant or a domain name
registrant to say in effect,you've sought this right.
Or you applicant or a domainname registrant to say in effect
, you've sought this right oryou've sought this domain name.
Did you want to also register atrademark or register?
Speaker 3 (06:11):
a domain name to prevent somebody else from doing
this.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
It's still a fairly niche thing that the IP offices
and the national registriescommunicate, so ultimately a lot
of times it's down toorganizations like IMTA, law
firms, vendors and so on to scanwhat's going on on the internet
, provide reports to the brandowners and then they decide if
names are available, theyregister them.
(06:34):
If they're already taken, thenthey have some choices to make.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
So the thing that always interested me, I mean the
internet, was always the WildWest and I remember the early
cybersporting thing Wasn't itElizabeth, WWW.
Really Wild West and I rememberthe early cyber-squatting thing
, wasn't it Elizabeth?
Www, really Wild West, thereyou go.
That's what it was Elizabethyesterday was saying, wasn't she
that she was involved in, Ithink, the first cyber-squatting
case in New.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
York, where no?
Speaker 4 (06:53):
one knew what domain names were or how it all worked.
What is WIPO's jurisdiction, asit were?
How do you guys actually withthe global system?
Do you own?
Speaker 2 (07:02):
it.
We don't own the.
There's an organization out ofCalifornia called ICANN and
they're kind of a spinoff ofsome US government agencies that
run the technical protocolsthat keep the Internet running
the way the UDRP works.
(07:23):
It's an alternative to courts,so it's an administrative
mechanism.
There was an early designquestion about whether it should
be arbitration oradministrative process, which is
managed through a contract.
So every person who registers acom domain name anywhere in the
world is subject to anagreement which says you agree
(07:43):
to go to this organization to beIPO, in case someone says
they'd like to make a claimagainst you.
And the beauty of it is itallows the registration
authorities to basicallyoutsource the complaints that
would otherwise be coming tothem, and it operates globally,
which is a necessity nowadays.
The the need to go toindividual national courts
(08:09):
obviously would be time and costprohibitive for brand owners
and um.
Speaker 4 (08:14):
What is the?
What you're at inter?
We're all into?
This is into podcasts.
What is um?
What's your goal here, whatyou're trying to achieve, what
you have to get out of it?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
for us so well, I should say.
We have colleagues from ourHague department and Madrid
department, in addition toCharles and myself, and so
tomorrow we have a session inthe plenary where we're
providing an update on all theWIPO services.
Specifically I think we're notreally different in that respect
Awareness raising we're verypopular.
(08:44):
We had in the past 10 years apretty steady rise average 8% to
10% year-on-year in terms ofcase numbers.
So it's something thatobviously a lot of people know
about and use.
But still there are people whomaybe aren't familiar with our
services.
We're here to allow people toask us questions if they want to
(09:05):
do a deeper dive on particulartopics.
We're providing some updates onpolicy work we're doing.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
Charles, we had a quick chat just before we
started recording.
You're pretty busy here as well.
Yes, quite busy.
Where have you gone?
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Tomorrow, as at the session that Brian had mentioned
, I'm going to be presenting onone of our programs called WIPO
Alert, and this is an endeavorwhereby national governments
will provide WIP can run checksbefore they place on
illegitimate websites.
(09:58):
So there's a lot of work beingdone in those types of domains.
People aren't even familiar.
There's more and more workbeing done on protecting IP,
enforcing IP.
We're also going to bediscussing a customs recordation
system that we are piloting.
It's not yet launched, but thatwill be put in place later in
(10:20):
the year to enable customsauthorities to have more ready
access to IP materials so thatthey can more readily identify
infringing goods at the border.
Speaker 4 (10:30):
That's a bit like an anti-counterfeiting kind of
measure.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Yes, so to speak.
Yes, and then, of course, asBrian had also mentioned, this
being Inta and the Madrid systemmanaging global trademarks,
we're going to be launching forthe first time here the new
eMadrid platform, which is kindof a revised, renewed platform
to facilitate the activities oftrademark attorneys and owners
(10:56):
in terms of managing theirtrademarks.
Speaker 4 (11:01):
As you said, some panelists are always saying oh,
why could they do PCT, rightthat's it.
You guys do a lot actually.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Yeah, pct is our major earner.
I think it earns roughly 77% to78% of the revenues of the
organization, followed by Madrid.
Okay, every business has tohave a trademark, as every
business has to have a trademark.
Yeah, not every business has tohave a patent.
Speaker 4 (11:25):
Yeah, and so interestingly these are
different business models withfirms that do patents and
trademarks.
They're quite differentbusiness models.
Actually, that's interesting.
And how did you get into allthis, Charles?
How did you get to WIPO?
Where were you before?
Speaker 3 (11:39):
That's a great question.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Yeah, how did you get into all this, charles?
How did you get to WIPO?
Where were you before?
That's a great question.
Yeah, it's kind of an oddquestion.
I was a foreign service officer.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
It's not an odd question, it's a podcast.
That's what we do.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
I was a US diplomat, a foreign service officer, Spent
most of my time overseasbecause I really really enjoyed
spending time overseas until.
I got a nasty letter fromWashington saying you need to
come back to Washington or we'llnever promote you again because
you've spent too much timeoverseas.
First they sent me toAfghanistan, where I spent a
(12:08):
year in the latter years of thewar.
Then I went back to Washingtonand just by chance, they put me
in an office of intellectualproperty enforcement.
So up until 2015, I had nevereven heard of WIPO.
And then suddenly I was plungedinto this office and I had to
help work and coordinate USgovernment policy interagency
(12:34):
policy on IP, because IP is somuch more than just the
technical aspect.
There's foreign policy aspect,there's the culture, there's
everything else.
So this was an office that kindof managed at a very high level
because, as we all know, it'sthe culture, there's everything
else.
So this was an office that kindof managed at a very high level
because, as we all know, it'sthe USPTO that leads on all the
technical issues, without aquestion.
And so at that time I made somecontacts at WIPO.
It looked like an organizationreally solid that is very, very
(12:56):
interested in joining, and aposition came available.
I applied for it and decided,after some thinking, that I
would make the jump.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
So you're not US government.
I am not US government.
Are you a WIPO at WIPO, I'm100% WIPO at WIPO.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
yeah, I took my retirement from the Foreign
Service and started a secondcareer.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Cool, we've already got to get Brian's's backstory
as well.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yeah, definitely, please.
Uh, mine may be slightly lessinteresting.
So I was doing trademarkprosecution work, amongst a few
other things, at a at a boutiquefirm in the washington dc area
and the opportunity came up todo a rotation as a case manager
for the work that we do, and theidea was to come over and do
(13:44):
that for a year and learn theropes about this domain name
stuff and go back to DC, and onething just sort of led to
another.
I was lucky enough to get on toa few project teams and really
enjoyed being in Switzerland andthe work that we were doing.
So I've been here almost 20years abroad now.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
So I've met a few people from WIPO and one thing
feeling I get is that maybeGeneva generally is just full of
people from it's a UN agency,isn't it?
So it's kind of internationalplace.
One thing I remember verystrongly was a visitor from WIPO
coming to London and taking afew attorneys out for lunch, and
at the end of it, when theycame with the bill, they said
(14:24):
can you just charge it?
No, you can't just randomlyassume that they'll let the UN
pay later.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Is that?
Speaker 4 (14:33):
what happens in Geneva.
Or was that just a one-off?
Must be a one-off?
No, it's quite interesting, butit gives that insight into a
place where there's a hugevisibility of the international
community within Geneva.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
There really is.
There's a real big civilservice footprint in Geneva from
the international community.
It's a big driver of the localeconomy and we're all very happy
to be there.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
Yeah, and in terms of , is a complete, genuine
curiosity.
Once you get working for WIPO,wipo gets you right to work and
all that kind of thing,presumably that's.
That's all worked out.
That's quite interesting.
So you get that adventure ofliving abroad a bit less
complexity, I suppose to acertain extent.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
I mean, obviously they facilitate your identity,
your ID cards, your work permitsetc.
But essentially when at leastwhen I was hired by WIPO, other
than that, it was really up tome to find a house to do all the
logistics work.
But it's a wonderful place towork, excellent work environment
and, as Brian was saying,geneva is just a lovely place.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
Do they need any podcasters?
Wipod.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
Wipod, wipod.
That's what you're on for,aren't you right?
So can I ask a question aboutInter?
Ok, because you guys are herein I was going to say in force,
but you know you can see thestand.
It's got a nice big ceilingdangly hanging above it so it's
easy to find.
So Inter's important to you,yeah.
What are the objectives?
(16:03):
What do you get out of it?
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Well, I mean the users of the Madrid system.
I mean it's mainly the Inter,our Inter clients, the companies
, the attorneys, and then wealso get tremendous exposure,
right, if Brian is here.
How often do we have theopportunity to have an audience
of 10,000?
Speaker 2 (16:22):
go.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
So it offers a tremendous opportunity to get
our messages across to networkthings like that Are you ready
for London next year?
Speaker 4 (16:33):
It's official now it's official.
We've talked about it.
We've talked about it.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
We've not talked about it on the other podcasts,
even though we know we didn'tknow, know, because obviously we
wouldn't know.
We wouldn't have heard it.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Yeah we didn't know.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
Yeah, because it was well kept secret.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
Back to the question.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
I'll let Brian say, but very, very ready for London
Especially.
I think we could all do withouta nine hour jet lag, which is
plaguing many of us these pastcouple of days, jet lag which is
plaguing many of us these pastcouple of days, I guess for you
also.
Speaker 4 (17:01):
I mean again, it's an opportunity while you're there
to every year you can do someextra visits.
I guess would you normally bolta couple of things on, do you
think it's sort of quiteinteresting?
Speaker 3 (17:10):
When we come to Entity, you mean You're angling
for a SEPA gig and also thepodcast bus, Podcast bus yeah,
we think, well, we have no idea.
It's got to happen.
Now.
It's got to happen.
Did we say it?
We said it already.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
We've said it about two times now.
We reckon we're going to get abus and do the podcast from a
double-decker bus next year.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Very cool.
Oh, that would be really coolthat oh, road, tour, road tour.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Let's do it yeah.
Road tour, Good yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
And that saves you travelling costs.
Then as well, cut the hammocksin the bus and we're sorted.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
But I think, if honestly, I think everyone's
thrilled that it'll be in Londonnext year, yeah, it's a cool
city of America, so you guys areobviously American origin.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
When you're over here , do you go and see family?
Speaker 2 (18:01):
or do you just come here and go home again?
It depends.
I was lucky enough this time toget to see my mom for a few
days before I came over here.
It doesn't always work out thatway, but this time it was the
stars aligned, so that's alwaysgreat.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
Where was that?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
so that's in Cincinnati Ohio, so sort of a
pit stop.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
I think it all depends on where our families
live as well.
My family's on the East Coast,so I had taken the opportunity
to go back over the Easterholiday visit my mother.
So on this trip, no, it'll bejust San Diego and back to
Geneva.
That's a good trip.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
So, gwendo, I was thinking maybe end the podcast
with another tangential kind ofmystery question do it, if
that's okay, because I have one,so, guys.
So what we do?
We've not been doing it a lotwhile we've been here because
these things go through quitequickly, but ordinarily we try
and come back to the end of thepodcast with the questions,
maybe related to the content,but maybe only loosely.
This is quite loosely.
(19:06):
What's what's the worst or thefunniest or most unusual domain
name you've ever seen?
Speaker 4 (19:12):
Oh, that's actually unusual.
You've got me there for once,because you've got one.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Of course I've got one.
Of course I've got one.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
That's just so I can think of something that's really
rude.
So I'm not doing it on thepodcast.
I'm going to duck that for thefirst time in my.
I come back.
I come back to you okay, Ithink about it.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Thank you, yes, yeah, yeah, I usually lot, usually
lots of domain names.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
So there's kind of two, two lenses for this
question there's.
There's sometimes some of thedefenses we get for why someone
registered a domain name.
It matches your, your cat'sname or, yeah, sound your baby
makes, or something like this.
It just happens to also be afamous brand, but I think one
that always kind of stuck out tome was in the US for American
(19:56):
football.
We have the Super Bowl big TVthing, and so there was a
gentleman who had registered abunch of domain names around the
Super Bowl a number of yearsago and he wrote in and said no,
no, no, this is all just someconfusion.
I'm very sorry, I wasn't reallythinking about this NFL guys,
I'm just a fan of owls and Iwanted to put up a bunch of
(20:18):
websites about superb owlsSuperb owls.
Needless to say, the NFL wasable to reclaim that name.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Absolutely genius, Charles.
You got any.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Honestly, I think I'll have to join Willem in that
.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
This is such a deflate.
I was really impressed withthis question.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
Only because you got it.
Well, I've got my answer now,which is tangential because it's
a cheat answer.
My grandmother's name isDorothy and she was known as Dot
, and so when Beth, the one whowas born her middle name was Dot
.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Brian's alarm is going off, so that's the end of
the podcast.
Carry on.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
So her name is Beth Dot Roberts.
Oh, everyone says that's a gooddomain name.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Mine's very, very quick if you've got just a
minute left.
So we were tendering for a newSEPA database some years ago.
So we had a number of firmscome up to show us their wares
and one was very, very excitedbecause they were doing
something for the Britishpsychotherapy um organization
and it was therapist register.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
Oh, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
And he was so proud, he put therapist registercouk up
on the screen and stuff likethat.
Yeah, there's only one way youcan read that.
Yeah, yeah, guys, thank you somuch for coming on.
It's been a it's been apleasure.
Enjoy the rest of of inter andI'll catch up at some point, I'm
sure.
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Yeah, thank you very much on behalf of wipe out.
Been a pleasure speaking withyou.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
We'll see you next time.
I got a nasty letter from Washington saying you need
to come back to Washington orwe'll never promote you again
because you've spent too muchtime overseas.
Lee Davis and Gwilym Robertsare the two IPs in a pod and you
are listening to a podcast onintellectual property brought to
you by the Chartered Instituteof Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Institute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
So we've got time now for what's become an annual one
for us the annual WIPO podcast.
Oh yeah, it's the big leaguenow.
Yeah, the big league I mean, wedid a WIPO podcast at Atlanta
last year, so this is ouranniversary WIPO podcast.
It's like the World Cup ofPatents WIPO, isn't it?
So we've got Charles and Brianwith us.
Charles, do you want tointroduce yourself first?
Shall we go with you?
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Certainly, charles Randolph.
I'm the head of the sectionthat deals with industry and NGO
relations at WIPO and this sitswithin the external relations
division.
So all the types of liaisonwork with groups, like yours,
with groups, like Inter, etcetera.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Yeah, we talk a lot, don't we?
In terms of email and stufflike that.
It's nice to meet you in person.
Pleasure, Pleasure.
We've met in person.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
Yes, we don't talk about it.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
No, no, no absolutely not.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
No, absolutely not.
Okay, carry on, we'll talkabout that later.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Brian, First of all, thank you so much, gentlemen,
for inviting us.
My name is Brian Beckham.
I head up our Internet DisputeResolution team at WIPO and
primarily people here at INTAwill know that for the UDRP,
which is the Uniform Domain NameDispute Resolution Policy which
helps brand owners reclaiminfringing domain names, and
then, of course, we're involvedin policy talks in the Internet
(01:43):
space and coordinate closelywith our INTA colleagues on
those types of matters Cool.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
That sounds like really exciting stuff to get
into.
Should we talk a little bitabout the NGO sort of
stakeholder relationship side ofit first.
Charles, is that perhaps a niceplace to start?
How many relationships does anorganisation like WIPO have?
It must have many, manyrelationships.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
It does Technically.
Wipo has over 300 officiallyaccredited ngo or industry
associations, but they'reapproximately, I would say, a
half dozen to a dozen that areactually very, very active.
Sipa into into, for example, isone of our most active industry
associations yeah, cool anddaily, day-to-day, weekly basis.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
What's your gig?
What are you doing?
Speaker 1 (02:26):
What would I be doing ?
I would be receivingdelegations in Geneva, making
sure that specialists from thedifferent associations matched
up with our specialists, settingup schedules, organizing events
.
I would be coordinating teamsfrom WIPO coming out to events
like this.
Coordinating teams from WIPOcoming out to events like this.
(02:47):
So they wanted a specialistlike Brian to speak on his
topics, or someone to speak on,say, the Madrid system or other
things.
So it's quite a bit of liaisonwork and I think what's really
interesting about it for me isthat it involves the entire
organization of WIPO, so it'snot just one section.
We have the copyrights, we havethe trademarks, we have the
patents, we have the arbitrationand mediation.
(03:08):
There's a whole gamut ofactivities and it's a really fun
job because you get to livewith people all across the
spectrum.
Are you on the road a lot?
No, actually I'm not, not sooften.
Oh, really no not as often asyou would think Supporting many
colleagues on the road quite abit, yes, Okay.
And then receiving.
We receive, I would say,probably 12 formal delegations
(03:32):
for day-long visits at WIPO eachyear.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
So bringing you in.
Brian, my understanding of yourarea is quite limited, so in my
head it's so.
I remember the early days ofthe internet it's sad being that
old, isn't it and there werethings that domain name
squatters, where people wouldperhaps get in first even before
a brand had um thought aboutprotecting its identity.
Is it that sort of thing, orhas it moved on significantly?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
it's, it's largely that sort of thing.
So we we actually just lastmonth in geneva we hosted a
conference where we commemoratedthe 25th anniversary of the
drpP, and in preparing for thatwe went over some of the history
, and there was a lot of peoplearound here will know an article
in Wired magazine where thejournalist went to register
McDonald'scom because it wasfreely available started down
(04:17):
the path of exploring what doesit take to get a domain name,
how do they deal with clasheswith trademarks and so on, and
at its core, the problem remainsthe same.
So brand owners can reclaimdomain names that have been
acquired by someone before theycould get to it.
And it's evolved a little bitover the years to where in the
past you would see,pay-per-click advertising was
(04:40):
quite popular in one phase, justextortion, you know, pay me
some money or I'll put up somethings on this website that you
don't like, and that stillexists.
But we're seeing a much biggerintersection these days, which
has been really kind ofaccelerated by advancements in
AI tools.
But already going back a coupleof years, we've seen a much
(05:03):
sharper intersection between thework we do and cybersecurity,
phishing, fraud.
So there's quicker ways toaddress that, but a lot of brand
owners will still file a casewith us if there's a phishing
campaign on the back of a domainname, so that they can
permanently keep that name outof the hands of infringers in
the future name out of the handsof infringers in the future.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Can we just track back to something you said
fairly early on in that piece,and that was the nexus between
domain name registrationmanagement and trademarks,
Because I think people thinkthat they're one and the same
and clearly they're not, arethey?
So how do the two come together?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Really, it's up to individual brand owners and
businesses to pull them together.
There are a small handful of IPoffices and national domain
name registries, so you guysmight be familiar with uk for
the UK namespace, ch forSwitzerland, where we live.
Some IP offices and the nationalregistries help provide
(06:00):
information to a trademarkapplicant or a domain name
registrant to say in effect,you've sought this right.
Or you applicant or a domainname registrant to say in effect
, you've sought this right oryou've sought this domain name.
Did you want to also register atrademark or register?
Speaker 3 (06:11):
a domain name to prevent somebody else from doing
this.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
It's still a fairly niche thing that the IP offices
and the national registriescommunicate, so ultimately a lot
of times it's down toorganizations like IMTA, law
firms, vendors and so on to scanwhat's going on on the internet
, provide reports to the brandowners and then they decide if
names are available, theyregister them.
(06:34):
If they're already taken, thenthey have some choices to make.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
So the thing that always interested me, I mean the
internet, was always the WildWest and I remember the early
cybersporting thing Wasn't itElizabeth, WWW.
Really Wild West and I rememberthe early cyber-squatting thing
, wasn't it Elizabeth?
Www, really Wild West, thereyou go.
That's what it was Elizabethyesterday was saying, wasn't she
that she was involved in, Ithink, the first cyber-squatting
case in New.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
York, where no?
Speaker 4 (06:53):
one knew what domain names were or how it all worked.
What is WIPO's jurisdiction, asit were?
How do you guys actually withthe global system?
Do you own?
Speaker 2 (07:02):
it.
We don't own the.
There's an organization out ofCalifornia called ICANN and
they're kind of a spinoff ofsome US government agencies that
run the technical protocolsthat keep the Internet running
the way the UDRP works.
(07:23):
It's an alternative to courts,so it's an administrative
mechanism.
There was an early designquestion about whether it should
be arbitration oradministrative process, which is
managed through a contract.
So every person who registers acom domain name anywhere in the
world is subject to anagreement which says you agree
(07:43):
to go to this organization to beIPO, in case someone says
they'd like to make a claimagainst you.
And the beauty of it is itallows the registration
authorities to basicallyoutsource the complaints that
would otherwise be coming tothem, and it operates globally,
which is a necessity nowadays.
The the need to go toindividual national courts
(08:09):
obviously would be time and costprohibitive for brand owners
and um.
Speaker 4 (08:14):
What is the?
What you're at inter?
We're all into?
This is into podcasts.
What is um?
What's your goal here, whatyou're trying to achieve, what
you have to get out of it?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
for us so well, I should say.
We have colleagues from ourHague department and Madrid
department, in addition toCharles and myself, and so
tomorrow we have a session inthe plenary where we're
providing an update on all theWIPO services.
Specifically I think we're notreally different in that respect
Awareness raising we're verypopular.
(08:44):
We had in the past 10 years apretty steady rise average 8% to
10% year-on-year in terms ofcase numbers.
So it's something thatobviously a lot of people know
about and use.
But still there are people whomaybe aren't familiar with our
services.
We're here to allow people toask us questions if they want to
(09:05):
do a deeper dive on particulartopics.
We're providing some updates onpolicy work we're doing.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
Charles, we had a quick chat just before we
started recording.
You're pretty busy here as well.
Yes, quite busy.
Where have you gone?
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Tomorrow, as at the session that Brian had mentioned
, I'm going to be presenting onone of our programs called WIPO
Alert, and this is an endeavorwhereby national governments
will provide WIP can run checksbefore they place on
illegitimate websites.
(09:58):
So there's a lot of work beingdone in those types of domains.
People aren't even familiar.
There's more and more workbeing done on protecting IP,
enforcing IP.
We're also going to bediscussing a customs recordation
system that we are piloting.
It's not yet launched, but thatwill be put in place later in
(10:20):
the year to enable customsauthorities to have more ready
access to IP materials so thatthey can more readily identify
infringing goods at the border.
Speaker 4 (10:30):
That's a bit like an anti-counterfeiting kind of
measure.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Yes, so to speak.
Yes, and then, of course, asBrian had also mentioned, this
being Inta and the Madrid systemmanaging global trademarks,
we're going to be launching forthe first time here the new
eMadrid platform, which is kindof a revised, renewed platform
to facilitate the activities oftrademark attorneys and owners
(10:56):
in terms of managing theirtrademarks.
Speaker 4 (11:01):
As you said, some panelists are always saying oh,
why could they do PCT, rightthat's it.
You guys do a lot actually.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Yeah, pct is our major earner.
I think it earns roughly 77% to78% of the revenues of the
organization, followed by Madrid.
Okay, every business has tohave a trademark, as every
business has to have a trademark.
Yeah, not every business has tohave a patent.
Speaker 4 (11:25):
Yeah, and so interestingly these are
different business models withfirms that do patents and
trademarks.
They're quite differentbusiness models.
Actually, that's interesting.
And how did you get into allthis, Charles?
How did you get to WIPO?
Where were you before?
Speaker 3 (11:39):
That's a great question.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Yeah, how did you get into all this, charles?
How did you get to WIPO?
Where were you before?
That's a great question.
Yeah, it's kind of an oddquestion.
I was a foreign service officer.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
It's not an odd question, it's a podcast.
That's what we do.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
I was a US diplomat, a foreign service officer, Spent
most of my time overseasbecause I really really enjoyed
spending time overseas until.
I got a nasty letter fromWashington saying you need to
come back to Washington or we'llnever promote you again because
you've spent too much timeoverseas.
First they sent me toAfghanistan, where I spent a
(12:08):
year in the latter years of thewar.
Then I went back to Washingtonand just by chance, they put me
in an office of intellectualproperty enforcement.
So up until 2015, I had nevereven heard of WIPO.
And then suddenly I was plungedinto this office and I had to
help work and coordinate USgovernment policy interagency
(12:34):
policy on IP, because IP is somuch more than just the
technical aspect.
There's foreign policy aspect,there's the culture, there's
everything else.
So this was an office that kindof managed at a very high level
because, as we all know, it'sthe culture, there's everything
else.
So this was an office that kindof managed at a very high level
because, as we all know, it'sthe USPTO that leads on all the
technical issues, without aquestion.
And so at that time I made somecontacts at WIPO.
It looked like an organizationreally solid that is very, very
(12:56):
interested in joining, and aposition came available.
I applied for it and decided,after some thinking, that I
would make the jump.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
So you're not US government.
I am not US government.
Are you a WIPO at WIPO, I'm100% WIPO at WIPO.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
yeah, I took my retirement from the Foreign
Service and started a secondcareer.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Cool, we've already got to get Brian's's backstory
as well.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yeah, definitely, please.
Uh, mine may be slightly lessinteresting.
So I was doing trademarkprosecution work, amongst a few
other things, at a at a boutiquefirm in the washington dc area
and the opportunity came up todo a rotation as a case manager
for the work that we do, and theidea was to come over and do
(13:44):
that for a year and learn theropes about this domain name
stuff and go back to DC, and onething just sort of led to
another.
I was lucky enough to get on toa few project teams and really
enjoyed being in Switzerland andthe work that we were doing.
So I've been here almost 20years abroad now.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
So I've met a few people from WIPO and one thing
feeling I get is that maybeGeneva generally is just full of
people from it's a UN agency,isn't it?
So it's kind of internationalplace.
One thing I remember verystrongly was a visitor from WIPO
coming to London and taking afew attorneys out for lunch, and
at the end of it, when theycame with the bill, they said
(14:24):
can you just charge it?
No, you can't just randomlyassume that they'll let the UN
pay later.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Is that?
Speaker 4 (14:33):
what happens in Geneva.
Or was that just a one-off?
Must be a one-off?
No, it's quite interesting, butit gives that insight into a
place where there's a hugevisibility of the international
community within Geneva.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
There really is.
There's a real big civilservice footprint in Geneva from
the international community.
It's a big driver of the localeconomy and we're all very happy
to be there.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
Yeah, and in terms of , is a complete, genuine
curiosity.
Once you get working for WIPO,wipo gets you right to work and
all that kind of thing,presumably that's.
That's all worked out.
That's quite interesting.
So you get that adventure ofliving abroad a bit less
complexity, I suppose to acertain extent.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
I mean, obviously they facilitate your identity,
your ID cards, your work permitsetc.
But essentially when at leastwhen I was hired by WIPO, other
than that, it was really up tome to find a house to do all the
logistics work.
But it's a wonderful place towork, excellent work environment
and, as Brian was saying,geneva is just a lovely place.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
Do they need any podcasters?
Wipod.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
Wipod, wipod.
That's what you're on for,aren't you right?
So can I ask a question aboutInter?
Ok, because you guys are herein I was going to say in force,
but you know you can see thestand.
It's got a nice big ceilingdangly hanging above it so it's
easy to find.
So Inter's important to you,yeah.
What are the objectives?
(16:03):
What do you get out of it?
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Well, I mean the users of the Madrid system.
I mean it's mainly the Inter,our Inter clients, the companies
, the attorneys, and then wealso get tremendous exposure,
right, if Brian is here.
How often do we have theopportunity to have an audience
of 10,000?
Speaker 2 (16:22):
go.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
So it offers a tremendous opportunity to get
our messages across to networkthings like that Are you ready
for London next year?
Speaker 4 (16:33):
It's official now it's official.
We've talked about it.
We've talked about it.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
We've not talked about it on the other podcasts,
even though we know we didn'tknow, know, because obviously we
wouldn't know.
We wouldn't have heard it.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Yeah we didn't know.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
Yeah, because it was well kept secret.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
Back to the question.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
I'll let Brian say, but very, very ready for London
Especially.
I think we could all do withouta nine hour jet lag, which is
plaguing many of us these pastcouple of days, jet lag which is
plaguing many of us these pastcouple of days, I guess for you
also.
Speaker 4 (17:01):
I mean again, it's an opportunity while you're there
to every year you can do someextra visits.
I guess would you normally bolta couple of things on, do you
think it's sort of quiteinteresting?
Speaker 3 (17:10):
When we come to Entity, you mean You're angling
for a SEPA gig and also thepodcast bus, Podcast bus yeah,
we think, well, we have no idea.
It's got to happen.
Now.
It's got to happen.
Did we say it?
We said it already.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
We've said it about two times now.
We reckon we're going to get abus and do the podcast from a
double-decker bus next year.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Very cool.
Oh, that would be really coolthat oh, road, tour, road tour.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Let's do it yeah.
Road tour, Good yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
And that saves you travelling costs.
Then as well, cut the hammocksin the bus and we're sorted.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
But I think, if honestly, I think everyone's
thrilled that it'll be in Londonnext year, yeah, it's a cool
city of America, so you guys areobviously American origin.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
When you're over here , do you go and see family?
Speaker 2 (18:01):
or do you just come here and go home again?
It depends.
I was lucky enough this time toget to see my mom for a few
days before I came over here.
It doesn't always work out thatway, but this time it was the
stars aligned, so that's alwaysgreat.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
Where was that?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
so that's in Cincinnati Ohio, so sort of a
pit stop.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
I think it all depends on where our families
live as well.
My family's on the East Coast,so I had taken the opportunity
to go back over the Easterholiday visit my mother.
So on this trip, no, it'll bejust San Diego and back to
Geneva.
That's a good trip.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
So, gwendo, I was thinking maybe end the podcast
with another tangential kind ofmystery question do it, if
that's okay, because I have one,so, guys.
So what we do?
We've not been doing it a lotwhile we've been here because
these things go through quitequickly, but ordinarily we try
and come back to the end of thepodcast with the questions,
maybe related to the content,but maybe only loosely.
This is quite loosely.
(19:06):
What's what's the worst or thefunniest or most unusual domain
name you've ever seen?
Speaker 4 (19:12):
Oh, that's actually unusual.
You've got me there for once,because you've got one.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Of course I've got one.
Of course I've got one.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
That's just so I can think of something that's really
rude.
So I'm not doing it on thepodcast.
I'm going to duck that for thefirst time in my.
I come back.
I come back to you okay, Ithink about it.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Thank you, yes, yeah, yeah, I usually lot, usually
lots of domain names.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
So there's kind of two, two lenses for this
question there's.
There's sometimes some of thedefenses we get for why someone
registered a domain name.
It matches your, your cat'sname or, yeah, sound your baby
makes, or something like this.
It just happens to also be afamous brand, but I think one
that always kind of stuck out tome was in the US for American
(19:56):
football.
We have the Super Bowl big TVthing, and so there was a
gentleman who had registered abunch of domain names around the
Super Bowl a number of yearsago and he wrote in and said no,
no, no, this is all just someconfusion.
I'm very sorry, I wasn't reallythinking about this NFL guys,
I'm just a fan of owls and Iwanted to put up a bunch of
(20:18):
websites about superb owlsSuperb owls.
Needless to say, the NFL wasable to reclaim that name.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Absolutely genius, Charles.
You got any.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Honestly, I think I'll have to join Willem in that
.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
This is such a deflate.
I was really impressed withthis question.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
Only because you got it.
Well, I've got my answer now,which is tangential because it's
a cheat answer.
My grandmother's name isDorothy and she was known as Dot
, and so when Beth, the one whowas born her middle name was Dot
.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Brian's alarm is going off, so that's the end of
the podcast.
Carry on.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
So her name is Beth Dot Roberts.
Oh, everyone says that's a gooddomain name.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Mine's very, very quick if you've got just a
minute left.
So we were tendering for a newSEPA database some years ago.
So we had a number of firmscome up to show us their wares
and one was very, very excitedbecause they were doing
something for the Britishpsychotherapy um organization
and it was therapist register.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
Oh, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
And he was so proud, he put therapist registercouk up
on the screen and stuff likethat.
Yeah, there's only one way youcan read that.
Yeah, yeah, guys, thank you somuch for coming on.
It's been a it's been apleasure.
Enjoy the rest of of inter andI'll catch up at some point, I'm
sure.
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Yeah, thank you very much on behalf of wipe out.
Been a pleasure speaking withyou.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
We'll see you next time.
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com