June 4, 2025 • 28 mins
What happens when podcast hosts become the guests? This delightful crossover episode brings together the worlds of "Two IPs in a Pod" and INTA's "Brand & New" as we welcome host Willard Knox for a behind-the-microphone conversation about the art and craft of intellectual property podcasting.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I don't understand what's going on.
Explain it to me.
What are you talking about?
Speaker 3 (00:06):
Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod
and you are listening to apodcast on intellectual property
brought to you by the CharteredInstitute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
So, gwilym, on the podcast now, this is quite
exciting for us because we'vealways wanted to do a podcast
mash-up, haven't we?
Yes, and we've got theopportunity to do it now, right,
because we've got one of theworld's foremost podcasters.
Indeed, indeed, it's huge, it ishuge, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah,
I'm going to now worry aboutwhether I'll get your name right
, willem, because Will Willemtold me a little joke before we
came into the podcast.
(00:43):
That's not fair.
So Willard Knox, yeah, yeah.
So in the UK we have thissaying about coming from the
school of hard knocks and hesaid you could come from the
school of Willard Knox.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Sorry, I wasn't going to share that.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
I usually get Fort Knox or this will probably get
edited out the movie Willard,the famous horror movie from the
70s which I remember seeing.
Guy Willard is the maincharacter, bruce Davison
brilliant actor, and he hastrained rats who kill.
And then, of course, there wasthe sequel Equally Beloved Ben.
(01:25):
Which is the Michael Jacksonsong.
I'm sure I'm going to get firedafter recording this podcast,
but you know, Ben, the songMichael Jackson, the take Anyway
.
So I was expecting when yousaid that here we go with
Willard.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
I haven't heard it for a while.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
But see now, you know .
Speaker 1 (01:40):
So welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Thank you for having me.
This is awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
We're aware you do a bit of this thing as well, so
you're used to it I mean it's aplace to start.
I mean we have a backstory, wehave a reason why we started
podcasting.
It was something that we werealways going to do, but then the
pandemic came along and gave usthe time and the space to do it
.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Because you know, there we are.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Gwilym was in his wherever you were.
Attic luxury, attic that was myluxury attic.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
I was in the garden shed.
I was in my boutique cellar.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
And it was like let's give this thing a go, never
expecting it to take off, Neverexpecting it to be like 175-ish
episodes down the track.
I'm hoping it will take off.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
I think it's cross.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
I think after this episode it's going to go viral.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
But I don't want to toot my own horn, and it's
developed over time.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
I think I've said this to you before, but I've
listened back to some of theearly ones and now what we do.
Now we're so much moreprofessional.
We understand how to make itwork for our guests and all that
sort of thing.
How did you get into it?
Tell us the INTA story.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
So the INTA story started before I was involved.
It launched in 2018.
And the idea was I mean, I wasworking there, but they had
another podcast.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
I was like what are you going to do Not for long?
Where are they?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
now Exactly, and you see how that worked out.
No, I shouldn't say that, cutthat, cut that, but the idea was
they were they wanted to talkabout brands, but also
innovation.
Yeah.
So the idea was when I firstheard the name, I thought, well,
brand new.
You know, you always say likeit's, like you know, etsy or
(03:17):
something new out of the box,like brand new.
So they took that and theclever thing was to throw in the
little ampersand and say, well,we're talking about IP and
brands, but we also want toeducate people about that, but
we also want to talk aboutwhat's the latest thing, For
example, you may have heard alittle something about AI.
It's getting a little buzz nottoo much right now, but it seems
(03:38):
to be surfacing as a topic.
So you know, the idea was tokind of cover both those things
for IP lawyers, so for preachingto the choir, to say like
brands are great and we shouldprotect them, like yes, yes, I
agree, my clients agree.
But also for people who knownothing about IP and or think IP
shouldn't exist or it's aproblem or it's getting in the
way, to say, like you know, Iwant to learn a little bit
(04:00):
before you have that opinion.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Do you know how?
Speaker 4 (04:10):
I know you're a pro Because you've been banging the
table?
Speaker 2 (04:12):
No, but then you stopped yourself.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
I saw you, no, no, with your beautiful brass.
Oh well, thank you.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
I saw how you stopped that, that's pro.
So we're not normally sataround a table with those kinds
of things happening are we?
Speaker 3 (04:22):
This creaky chair here is horrific, so it's
interesting.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
We do very few of these in person.
Yeah, yeah, yeah and they'realways slightly more difficult
to do than the remote ones,because when they're remote, I
mean we can send one of ourlittle messages in the chat bar
and stuff like that.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
How quickly can?
Speaker 2 (04:37):
we get through this one.
I just remembered I have a loafof bread in the oven.
I've've got to go, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Talk to us a little bit about sourcing guests.
How do you?
Speaker 2 (04:49):
identify your targets .
Well, my brilliant producer,who you met earlier, slash
co-worker, tracy Ayers, shereally does all the sourcing,
although I'm going to take alittle credit.
I recently found a guest who ohright, that's the best I can
get.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Yeah, I just love being able to say that my
producer.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
You know, I found someone that I won't reveal, but
I'm hoping we're going to getthat person on an episode soon
that I had heard.
It actually had a CLE for theCopyright Society, right Another
IP association and it was great, talking about music and IP and
I was like, well, well, this isperfect because of the world IP
(05:27):
day and all that stuff.
But we put him on hold becausewe were doing the opposition
band, which is the INTA memberopposition TM.
So really I just kind of showup, I suggest people, so I hope
this person will.
I'm pretty sure we will get himslash her.
I don't want to reveal too muchidentifying information, but
you know.
So she really does that andthen I help out when I can.
But it's been great because Ijust kind of show up and she
(05:50):
tells me here's some research,here's some planning, you know,
but can I just go?
Speaker 3 (05:54):
in and do it, you bring some energy.
I can feel that that's amazing,yeah, to be fair and ours, so
we made this.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
The idea early on was for it to be a double hander
kind of host thing.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
I don't want to say I'm jealous of it, but I have
co-hosts, you know.
Heather you, matt, and we neverhost together and.
I love this.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
I think it just brings a different energy than
the you know, because every nowand then one or other of us gets
a bit of a dip and we just thea dip.
The other one knows and takesit on.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Oh, a bit of a dip like you, like I'm over that
yeah, never total boredom yeahyeah, why did we invite this?
Guest, but also what works forus, because I mean, gwilym is
obviously the cast I&IPprofessional patent attorney of
many years.
Yes, many years my backgroundisn't IP.
(06:46):
I've been with Sleeper 13 yearsbut my background is education.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
I know I was so interested.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
I was like your story is really take over and do some
questioning, if you want.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
I love that.
It's so interesting?
Speaker 2 (06:57):
no, it's just that you don't it's great to see
someone who's not you know whowent a different way.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
I love that I can ask the kind of elephant in the
room question sometimes.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
Oh, right, yeah hang on.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
I don't understand what's going on.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Don't explain it to me.
What are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yeah, Especially when it gets into, like the hard
tech areas or initialisms andacronyms Converse.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Yeah, when it comes to anything about ethics and
morality, I just hand of theleague and I don't understand
that stuff at all it goes well,so but we do, I mean, you don't
do a lot of research, do you?
Speaker 1 (07:29):
I think it's fair to say no, I do quite a bit of
research, so that's the otherthing we do.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
We kind of make it work that way around.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Yeah, got any kind of backroom stories you can share
with us.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
I mean, I wish I did you know, I really I was like I
could just make something up,you know.
When so-and-so was on, youwouldn't believe they all have
been really smooth for me so far, you know.
So we'll see if that continuesto play out, and I don't
actually know.
I mean, if something goes wrong,I assume it gets cut yeah yeah,
(08:04):
I'm pretty sure, there arethings that I've said that were
not controversial, but, as youcan tell, I'm a little, you know
, chatty, so they're like, okay,we can't do this for three
hours, so let's cut that section.
But it's always kind of fun tosee what does make it in.
You know things that I think,oh, they're going to, you know,
like in the opposition one,which is not to push that
episode on you, but I found outone of the guys, jason Vogel,
(08:26):
also is a biker motorcycle guy.
Yeah, yeah.
So I asked him about that andhe talked about it that they
kept in.
That's cool.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
The infringers?
Yeah, so the opposition one iswith the band to me, yeah, it's
with two of the co-foundersJason Vogel, richard Disman.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Jason Vogel, richard Disman.
I'm going to get that wrong,but I'm pretty sure that's right
.
Who's in Germany?
Jason's in New York with me.
The third guy wasn't able tojoin us because he was in Asia
and it was like 3 in the morningor something.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
But yeah, it was a ton of fun.
You know, we saw that we werelooking at the list of band
members.
Oh, it's extraordinary.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
It's an operation.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, members, it's an operation, yeah
, the operation of theopposition.
Yeah, so much going on.
Yeah, yeah, must make rehearsalquite difficult well, that's
the thing too.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Especially during covid, it was like, how did you
guys do it?
You know, and they they havetwo videos out on zoom, not so
two videos they created, whichis great, yeah, but yeah, they
had the same thing like oh well,we had that issue because we
had an office band in my, myfirm.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Oh okay, I'm trying to rehearse, you can't?
The lag makes it absolutelyimpossible.
We managed to put one songtogether, but it took one person
almost 24 hours of editing toget all the parts to fit
together.
Yeah, yeah.
So we did do that sea shantythough.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Have you ever saw that oh?
Speaker 4 (09:37):
I did see the sea shanty.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
We did the sea sh was really good fun.
Actually just four voices andthat was a lot easier to edit oh
, oh, yeah, it's somewhere, Ican see it.
It's somewhere online oh, I'dlove to see it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And also actually you know youboth talked that sea shanty is
very interesting because we wewere chatting, we're chatting
over zoom in deep, deep lockdownabout doing a sea shanty and
(10:01):
then also chatting about allwhat life was like, and we
actually got onto theconversation about what you're
going to do when this is overand that's the song.
So it's like a littlehistorical document of what
people were talking about andbasically the theme is we're
going to go to the pub.
Basically the whole song iswe're going to go to the pub
when it's all over.
But it's funny to it becausesome of the things you were
(10:21):
wanting to go to a crowded roomI know is one of the lyrics and
think, gosh, you know who wantsto go to a crowded room, but
back then it's like I want tosee people anyway it's
interesting, it's become apodcast about us.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
We'll let you speak in a moment we should talk more.
I think it was the Leeds.
We do regional events with ourmembers and I think it was our.
Leeds regional event and I waschatting to one of the members
there and he said do you knowwhat you guys are actually doing
on the podcast or what's that?
He said you're actually makinga social history of IP.
That's on the wall.
Yes, that's interesting, yeah,and all of a sudden I felt a
(10:56):
sense of purpose About time.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
No, you're right, you talk about what's topical.
And then actually, I was justhere we go, I'm talking again.
I was listening into a reallygood comedy podcast, but they
started in deep lockdown as welland the conversations they were
having it was a different eraof it.
That's going to come back andyou'll be able to go to those
resources and say that's whatwas going on, right?
Speaker 1 (11:16):
right, so let's get serious about the I-N-T-A.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Okay okay.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
I've learned that my serious voice okay, I need to
say I-N-T-A and not Inter.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
I've learned that today.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Actually, I thought so too, but I was told by a very
senior officer at theorganization which I'll remain
nameless, she wouldn't care thatyou can say both.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
I always thought they were debating information.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
Yeah, I'm deeply confused.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
No, no, well, the thing was too like.
People would say I'll see youat Inter, and I thought, well,
if it's a trademark, shouldn'tyou say I'll see you at the
Inter meeting.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
Yeah, you know, right , you know what I'm saying Very
good.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
But I think the bottom line is people are like
we don't.
We call it Intar Just to addcomplexity to the debate.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
I would love it, like some people call us Kipper, I
would love it.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
I would love it.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
Yeah, start a trend.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
See if it takes.
Can I get back to my serious?
Speaker 1 (12:12):
question oh, yes, yes .
I'm sorry If you're going to bea podcast host for a moment you
interrupted yourself.
I'm sorry.
What was?
My question going to be.
It was the void purpose thatgot me to think about this.
So we quickly found that whatwe started off not as light
hearted, but it was never meantto be really serious, was it?
It was never meant to be formalhas become for us a central
(12:34):
plank of our communicationsstrategy plan it's now.
If we stopped doing it, we wouldlose something which is quite
cool, isn't it?
Speaker 4 (12:41):
Is it the same at INTA?
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Has it become strategically?
Speaker 2 (12:45):
important.
I mean, I hope so For my ownsake.
No, no, I think it is Because Ithink you know I was talking to
my producer, tracy, about thisand saying, you know, being a
lawyer myself, I mean lawyerslike read all the time right,
and trademark administrators.
It's like you're in front of ascreen, you're reading, reading,
(13:05):
reading, reading, reading andyou're absorbing.
It's so refreshing.
I like listen to people talk,do it in a conversational way,
even though you both know thatit, you know, sounds
conversational but it's rigidlyrehearsed and you could learn
something about IP without itbeing like.
You know.
It's a nice break and I thinkthat, to me, that connection I'm
sort of not answering yourquestion, but I'm trying to the
(13:26):
connection with other people,even on a podcast or something I
feel like.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
I learn better, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
I'm a freak because and I'm going to just say it on
this- you can leave it in there.
You know, in law school I wouldhave wouldn't been told before
like the socratic method.
Oh my god, the paper chase.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
It's awful they're gonna ruin your life you're
gonna be.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
You know, I thought it was kind of great and maybe
it was the actor in me, but Ifelt like I learned better that
way, like like a conversationwas how I, I, I studied all the
time.
It didn't matter hearing that,having that dialogue or a
conversation, this, you knowit's a human, that human
connection, you absorb it.
So I think it's to me it is acentral plank of the
(14:11):
communications platform for I&T,because you've got the website,
you've got the emails.
You know this is something, butthis is on Spotify.
I'll just mention, since youasked, you know this is
something, but this is onSpotify.
I'll just mention, since youasked, you know Spotify, apple
Podcasts, like you can find usin more places and I think
that's a good thing and alsopeople can access it, so I tend
to listen to podcasts when I'mrunning or doing a bit of
fishing or something like that.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yeah, yeah and it organically just seems to embed
itself in my brain without meneeding to do too much yeah
brain without me needing to dotoo much.
Yeah, I've got three questionscoming out, that little kind of
piece that you did there.
I know william's got one ofthem written down there, so I'll
leave that one.
I'll leave that one with you soyou can read that upside.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
That's because I can't read that the right way up
.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
So I'll let you come in in a minute.
I'll let you speak again in amoment I'm not gonna be happy.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
I'll have a dip so yeah
Speaker 1 (14:55):
there it is.
There's a dip I have to usethat later.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
No, I'm sorry, trace, I'm having a dip, just moan
silence.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
So you talked about the, so we work quite hard at it
being a conversation.
And sometimes people don'tunderstand how much work there
is in it?
No, it is, it really is One ofthe things that we don't
particularly like butoccasionally people come along
with are scripts.
Do you get guests thatsometimes turn up and they've
actually got a script thatthey're going to work to,
regardless of what you ask them?
Speaker 2 (15:21):
no, I mean, we usually write them and I'll send
them to people and say oh, it'sjust a conversation we do all
of that and then I say but ifyou veer off of this, we're
going to cut it.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
You'll never appear again but don't worry about it,
no pressure no, no, we haven'thad that.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Wow, oh, like, here are the things they want to
cover?
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Yeah, but they tell us what we're going to be saying
as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
These are the questions you're going to ask I
hope it's somebody.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
I know that's crazy.
Yeah, I'm not worried.
Should we be the names?
Speaker 1 (15:49):
later I'll be like uh-oh, no, it's all right.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Wow, we're very open to it.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
we just totally go off script instantly we totally
go off it yeah if you come upwith a script, there's no way
we're sticking to it, so that'salmost the reason to be like
okay, you brought the script.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
I'm sure some people just say what they were going to
say anyway, word for word.
Whatever we say, pretty much Ireckon they just read out what
they were going to say a greatquestion Intellectual property.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
You're like wait a minute?
Wait a minute.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Right, you're like.
The answer is you're like okay,but the other thing is that's
kind of sad, though there's nofun in that.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
You said.
You said when I was in lawschool.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
So tell us a little bit about your professional
background I mentioned earlier.
You know I was for many, manyyears.
I can send you my list ofcredits.
It's short but meaningful.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
No, we didn't ask you about that.
Keep going.
We're coming back to that.
We're coming to that.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
I was really a theatre person loved it.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
I was actually a triple threat, which is an
objective truth.
I could sing, I could dance, Ican act.
Speaker 4 (16:50):
I can still sing.
I can still sing actually.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
So you're better than Fred the St because you can
dance and could act a little,not at that level, can we?
Speaker 1 (17:02):
stick to my question, which was a little bit about
the legal kind of side of thestory.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
You know the true story is, you know, there's the
official, like what I say and topeople, but the you know, the
real truth is I moved to NewYork to be an actor and I had
friends who are still actingfrom Juilliard and they're
brilliant and it's really hardit's.
You know, I used to get mad atmy dad.
He'd be like you know it'sgoing to be a hard life and I'd
(17:26):
be like shut up dad.
And then my friends who weredoing it with this credential,
you know, this amazingexperience.
It's a life you really have tocommit to it and I felt like nah
, and they were like travelingall over and I'm like traveling,
okay, and then you have to sellblood in new york.
I was like that that just soundslike a lot.
So I kind of I'm being a littleflip.
(17:48):
But you know, I kind of made myway into law because I thought,
well, I, like you know, I hadlawyers in the family so and of
course I always thought I'mnever gonna do that.
So, you know, it was kind of anatural thing and I loved
writing, which is something Ididn't as an actor.
I just didn't really do.
I mean, it certainly turned outto be something that was beyond
what I would have imagined, youknow.
But I'm sitting here with youguys in part because I went to
(18:09):
law school, right, yeah, yeahyeah, it's kind of the best of
both worlds.
Like I do not get let go of thatlicense.
But it's great because I don'thave the pressure of clients,
you know, like real people whowant me to do things.
But I still have the license,I'm still in the world and I've
(18:30):
been able to use that degree todo other things which I would
not have been able to do withjust my honors bfa in acting.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
So that's been kind of great, you know can I ask you
about the acting cool, it's socool.
So, julie, are you at juliealso?
You know, I didn't get in.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
I didn't that's a fancy drama school kind of yeah,
yeah, very famous like a lot ofthe people like oscar isaac you
may know from the star wars andother things a lot of famous
people graduate there.
I mean people who are notfamous also, but it's like the
kelsey grammar, oh.
Yeah.
Uh, you know, like a lot offamous people graduate there.
I mean people who are not famousalso, but it's like the kelsey
grammar, oh yeah, uh, you know,like a lot of sort of uh, you
know, it's sort of like the,like the harvard, okay, I would
(19:08):
say of, of, um, of actingtraining I mean there's yale I
would like to go on there too,which is meryl streep.
Okay, how much time we have,meryl streep.
You know?
John turturro, people like that, yeah, julia was more like the.
If you want to be a classicallytrained American actor and do
Shakespeare, kevin Kline youknow?
Oh, really.
Yeah yeah, yeah, that was sortof.
(19:30):
That was the place for the.
You know are going to doShakespeare in the Park.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
And so you mentioned that you've got a range of
talents there.
So are you in musical theatremore or all different stuff?
Well, as you mentioned, I was.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
I did a lot of musical theatre.
Right, because I justcompletely loved it, Like
singing is such a total blast.
Yes, I did a lot of Shakespeare.
I did Iago and Othello, whichwas I'm sure I have.
The local college reviews werevery, very, If they're online,
which I'd be surprised if theywere he was really good until he
(20:05):
started singing and dancing.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
That wasn't in the play came here for legal advice
exactly.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Oh, I never thought about that when I was in
practice.
I could have just like right incourt in New York court, just
been like your honor, justbreaking.
Can you imagine?
I mean those New York judgeswould have been like bailiff
remove him that was it.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
I was really interested.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
I did Greek Tragedy also.
In was really interested.
I did Greek Tragedy also inwhich I did sing.
I did a production of Persians.
This is totally going to be cutright.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
On.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Aeschylus like the first surviving Greek Tragedy.
Persians, I played as they didin the original because there
were no women because youbecause there were no women?
Because you know doing womencan't do that role they're too
busy doing other things.
I did the queen and then I didher son.
So the first time I was thequeen, and then the, and as the
son I sang and danced.
(21:02):
I mean, it was about death anddying, but you can still sing
yeah, you can sing and you dance.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Just more sympathetically right, exactly
yes sad dogs.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
I've got one of them.
You had a question, there was aquestion brewing and all of
that oh sorry, there was nothingto do with that at all actually
.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
No, we kind of jumped over a little bit about the
name of the podcast actually yes, yes, you mentioned the
ampersand, but brand yeah, it'sup here in the booth.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Yes, yes, there it is it is quite clever, not brand
new, a piece of the board I lovethat.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
No, I do love that.
I'm not just saying it becauseI'm a guest.
I think that is just, can I say, adorable.
It really is.
No, no, it is, it is we werequite.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Occasionally you get guests on that are quite
prestigious, don't you?
We had quite a well known UKpolitical commentator come on,
yeah, yeah, yeah because he alsohe does myth busting and and
stuff like that and they've donesome work around IP.
So we had him on to talk aboutthat and the first thing he said
to us was this is best name forpodcast, but I think, brand new
is better brand new is muchbetter.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Yeah, it's really brand new, just my own product.
But I think you guys are andyou've got that cute little
graphic.
I mean, come on.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
I have to whenever I get my glasses done same glasses
, so I look like my media imagenow it's ridiculous.
But yeah, no, it's great.
Then I mean brand new.
It's clever it.
You see it first with brand newand then it jumps into yeah,
yeah done actually, and it's gotmeaning as well yeah, I'm like
two ips in the pod, it's just agood joke.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
So we have a backstory which don't often tell
on the podcast about that, andthat's that.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
It wasn't our original choice of name oh, so
we were going, so we were goingto be Idea Suit, if you remember
, and you got sued.
No, no, well, no, no.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
We found that there was someone who was using it on.
Was it Instagram or somethinglike?
Speaker 4 (22:41):
that he had a very small number of followers.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Oh wow.
So we were in the IP space,you're not just going to trample
over.
Someone Right reached out andwe said look, you know, we're
kind of invested in this.
We like the name, you know.
Quite happy for you to carry on, but do you mind if we do this?
And he said well, actually Iwas thinking about doing a
podcast in the future.
He never did, but I was thinkingabout doing a podcast in the
future and we thought, well, wecan't do that but actually what
we came up with is more relevantto what we do anyway, yeah, and
(23:05):
then yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
So we have worked every possible pun out of every
version of it over the years.
Do you remember the favouriteone?
Actually, just quickly, we dida band night, don't you remember
?
We called it Patents Act.
Yeah, I was quite proud of that.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Oh, I like the black eyed peas.
Yeah, that was our office bandfor black eyed peas.
Speaker 4 (23:25):
That's good, that's good.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
I think there's nothing left now.
I'm pretty sure we have onewith James Bond films but with
IP puns on it, and the best oneI saw wasn't me, it was somebody
who said the Dutch for patentis octroi, like natal edge
octroi bureau just octroi pussyit was just brilliant.
Now, that's just too neat, allyou need to do is know James
(23:51):
Bond IP and.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
Dutch bang, yeah, yeah All you need to do is know
James Bond IP and Dutch Bangyeah.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
We're close to time, willard, okay.
One of the things that I do onthe podcast is keep an eye on
the drop, which is why I'venormally got it running.
Willard's now looking at whowe've got next.
Okay next.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
I was told this was going to be yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Oh, this is a pinnacle.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
This is a pinnacle should we just drop that mic.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Do not drop my expensive mic.
They're a cheap mic I can drop.
So are you sat there thinkingthank god they didn't ask me
that, or I really wanted to talkabout this?
Is there a piece of the jigsawmissing?
Tough question, I know sorry no, I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
I mean I don't.
Yeah, there's nothing that Iwas surprised or bored by in the
questioning, excellent.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
Excellent.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Well, you know what?
Speaker 2 (24:41):
And this will be obsequious flattery, but it's
true, I mean listening to youguys before you know to get's ip
and but they're, it's like funand you guys are really good and
my producer, tracy, has told methis before like just and I.
(25:03):
I interestingly, as an actor, Ihave trouble a little going off
script because wait a minute.
Wait a minute.
Yeah, you know, like you don'thave to cover it all, you,
there's a flow here that I love,like you're just you're in it.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Oh, that's so nice.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
However, the conversation's going, you run
with it.
You know that's, but that's noteasy.
In my having done threeepisodes myself.
You know it's actually it'shard to do.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
You make it seem easy , but it's actually.
I would say that's what we'vegot better at, because if I
listen back to the earlier ones,it was very much well Gwilym's
time to ask a question, whereasnow we don't do that do we?
Speaker 3 (25:38):
We just kind of no.
Occasionally we'll be messagingoff on the side.
I'll just say, right, you're up, or whatever it might be, but
yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
And it does make more of a.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Occasionally, you get those tumbleweed moments and we
know how each other thinks.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Yeah, which is great.
There's like a flow to it, likethis flow was really great, you
know, like it.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
So I'd like to, I'd like to.
I'm going to take that away andtry to do that.
You need a co-host, as in aco-hosted host, it does seem
like it's really fun.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
Obviously, no one knows what Inter's going to be
next year.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Only our NTA.
Thank you, no next year.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
Oh, the INTA, thank you.
No one knows what the INTA isgoing to be or what it's, how
it's going to be pronouncedhopefully.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
I know nothing.
I know nothing we're enjoyingthis.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
I think we should link up and do more together we
could do something reallyexciting next year once we know
where it is.
No, no, no, this was a treat,this is a total treat, and an
honor like you guys are againsequestrated.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
But truly like, you're really good like it's no,
no, no, I mean.
I'm learning a lot.
I think we've got all this.
Yeah, it's true, it's really.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Oh no, there was a power outage oh no, you're not
allowed to speak on the podcast,you're the producer oh no, she
exists, it's true, thank you somuch for sharing the talk with
us.
It's been a pleasure, it's beena pleasure.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
This was a blast, a total blast yeah, no, no, no,
really, yeah, yeah.
I don't say that.
I won't say that to otherpeople around, so trust me, I
mean it yeah, thank you so muchokay, we'll see you next time.
Speaker 4 (27:26):
Two IPs in a.
Two IPs in a.
Two IPs in a.
I don't understand what's going on.
Explain it to me.
What are you talking about?
Speaker 3 (00:06):
Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod
and you are listening to apodcast on intellectual property
brought to you by the CharteredInstitute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
So, gwilym, on the podcast now, this is quite
exciting for us because we'vealways wanted to do a podcast
mash-up, haven't we?
Yes, and we've got theopportunity to do it now, right,
because we've got one of theworld's foremost podcasters.
Indeed, indeed, it's huge, it ishuge, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah,
I'm going to now worry aboutwhether I'll get your name right
, willem, because Will Willemtold me a little joke before we
came into the podcast.
(00:43):
That's not fair.
So Willard Knox, yeah, yeah.
So in the UK we have thissaying about coming from the
school of hard knocks and hesaid you could come from the
school of Willard Knox.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Sorry, I wasn't going to share that.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
I usually get Fort Knox or this will probably get
edited out the movie Willard,the famous horror movie from the
70s which I remember seeing.
Guy Willard is the maincharacter, bruce Davison
brilliant actor, and he hastrained rats who kill.
And then, of course, there wasthe sequel Equally Beloved Ben.
(01:25):
Which is the Michael Jacksonsong.
I'm sure I'm going to get firedafter recording this podcast,
but you know, Ben, the songMichael Jackson, the take Anyway
.
So I was expecting when yousaid that here we go with
Willard.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
I haven't heard it for a while.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
But see now, you know .
Speaker 1 (01:40):
So welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Thank you for having me.
This is awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
We're aware you do a bit of this thing as well, so
you're used to it I mean it's aplace to start.
I mean we have a backstory, wehave a reason why we started
podcasting.
It was something that we werealways going to do, but then the
pandemic came along and gave usthe time and the space to do it
.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Because you know, there we are.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Gwilym was in his wherever you were.
Attic luxury, attic that was myluxury attic.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
I was in the garden shed.
I was in my boutique cellar.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
And it was like let's give this thing a go, never
expecting it to take off, Neverexpecting it to be like 175-ish
episodes down the track.
I'm hoping it will take off.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
I think it's cross.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
I think after this episode it's going to go viral.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
But I don't want to toot my own horn, and it's
developed over time.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
I think I've said this to you before, but I've
listened back to some of theearly ones and now what we do.
Now we're so much moreprofessional.
We understand how to make itwork for our guests and all that
sort of thing.
How did you get into it?
Tell us the INTA story.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
So the INTA story started before I was involved.
It launched in 2018.
And the idea was I mean, I wasworking there, but they had
another podcast.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
I was like what are you going to do Not for long?
Where are they?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
now Exactly, and you see how that worked out.
No, I shouldn't say that, cutthat, cut that, but the idea was
they were they wanted to talkabout brands, but also
innovation.
Yeah.
So the idea was when I firstheard the name, I thought, well,
brand new.
You know, you always say likeit's, like you know, etsy or
(03:17):
something new out of the box,like brand new.
So they took that and theclever thing was to throw in the
little ampersand and say, well,we're talking about IP and
brands, but we also want toeducate people about that, but
we also want to talk aboutwhat's the latest thing, For
example, you may have heard alittle something about AI.
It's getting a little buzz nottoo much right now, but it seems
(03:38):
to be surfacing as a topic.
So you know, the idea was tokind of cover both those things
for IP lawyers, so for preachingto the choir, to say like
brands are great and we shouldprotect them, like yes, yes, I
agree, my clients agree.
But also for people who knownothing about IP and or think IP
shouldn't exist or it's aproblem or it's getting in the
way, to say, like you know, Iwant to learn a little bit
(04:00):
before you have that opinion.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Do you know how?
Speaker 4 (04:10):
I know you're a pro Because you've been banging the
table?
Speaker 2 (04:12):
No, but then you stopped yourself.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
I saw you, no, no, with your beautiful brass.
Oh well, thank you.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
I saw how you stopped that, that's pro.
So we're not normally sataround a table with those kinds
of things happening are we?
Speaker 3 (04:22):
This creaky chair here is horrific, so it's
interesting.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
We do very few of these in person.
Yeah, yeah, yeah and they'realways slightly more difficult
to do than the remote ones,because when they're remote, I
mean we can send one of ourlittle messages in the chat bar
and stuff like that.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
How quickly can?
Speaker 2 (04:37):
we get through this one.
I just remembered I have a loafof bread in the oven.
I've've got to go, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Talk to us a little bit about sourcing guests.
How do you?
Speaker 2 (04:49):
identify your targets .
Well, my brilliant producer,who you met earlier, slash
co-worker, tracy Ayers, shereally does all the sourcing,
although I'm going to take alittle credit.
I recently found a guest who ohright, that's the best I can
get.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Yeah, I just love being able to say that my
producer.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
You know, I found someone that I won't reveal, but
I'm hoping we're going to getthat person on an episode soon
that I had heard.
It actually had a CLE for theCopyright Society, right Another
IP association and it was great, talking about music and IP and
I was like, well, well, this isperfect because of the world IP
(05:27):
day and all that stuff.
But we put him on hold becausewe were doing the opposition
band, which is the INTA memberopposition TM.
So really I just kind of showup, I suggest people, so I hope
this person will.
I'm pretty sure we will get himslash her.
I don't want to reveal too muchidentifying information, but
you know.
So she really does that andthen I help out when I can.
But it's been great because Ijust kind of show up and she
(05:50):
tells me here's some research,here's some planning, you know,
but can I just go?
Speaker 3 (05:54):
in and do it, you bring some energy.
I can feel that that's amazing,yeah, to be fair and ours, so
we made this.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
The idea early on was for it to be a double hander
kind of host thing.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
I don't want to say I'm jealous of it, but I have
co-hosts, you know.
Heather you, matt, and we neverhost together and.
I love this.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
I think it just brings a different energy than
the you know, because every nowand then one or other of us gets
a bit of a dip and we just thea dip.
The other one knows and takesit on.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Oh, a bit of a dip like you, like I'm over that
yeah, never total boredom yeahyeah, why did we invite this?
Guest, but also what works forus, because I mean, gwilym is
obviously the cast I&IPprofessional patent attorney of
many years.
Yes, many years my backgroundisn't IP.
(06:46):
I've been with Sleeper 13 yearsbut my background is education.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
I know I was so interested.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
I was like your story is really take over and do some
questioning, if you want.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
I love that.
It's so interesting?
Speaker 2 (06:57):
no, it's just that you don't it's great to see
someone who's not you know whowent a different way.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
I love that I can ask the kind of elephant in the
room question sometimes.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
Oh, right, yeah hang on.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
I don't understand what's going on.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Don't explain it to me.
What are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yeah, Especially when it gets into, like the hard
tech areas or initialisms andacronyms Converse.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Yeah, when it comes to anything about ethics and
morality, I just hand of theleague and I don't understand
that stuff at all it goes well,so but we do, I mean, you don't
do a lot of research, do you?
Speaker 1 (07:29):
I think it's fair to say no, I do quite a bit of
research, so that's the otherthing we do.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
We kind of make it work that way around.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Yeah, got any kind of backroom stories you can share
with us.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
I mean, I wish I did you know, I really I was like I
could just make something up,you know.
When so-and-so was on, youwouldn't believe they all have
been really smooth for me so far, you know.
So we'll see if that continuesto play out, and I don't
actually know.
I mean, if something goes wrong,I assume it gets cut yeah yeah,
(08:04):
I'm pretty sure, there arethings that I've said that were
not controversial, but, as youcan tell, I'm a little, you know
, chatty, so they're like, okay,we can't do this for three
hours, so let's cut that section.
But it's always kind of fun tosee what does make it in.
You know things that I think,oh, they're going to, you know,
like in the opposition one,which is not to push that
episode on you, but I found outone of the guys, jason Vogel,
(08:26):
also is a biker motorcycle guy.
Yeah, yeah.
So I asked him about that andhe talked about it that they
kept in.
That's cool.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
The infringers?
Yeah, so the opposition one iswith the band to me, yeah, it's
with two of the co-foundersJason Vogel, richard Disman.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Jason Vogel, richard Disman.
I'm going to get that wrong,but I'm pretty sure that's right
.
Who's in Germany?
Jason's in New York with me.
The third guy wasn't able tojoin us because he was in Asia
and it was like 3 in the morningor something.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
But yeah, it was a ton of fun.
You know, we saw that we werelooking at the list of band
members.
Oh, it's extraordinary.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
It's an operation.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, members, it's an operation, yeah
, the operation of theopposition.
Yeah, so much going on.
Yeah, yeah, must make rehearsalquite difficult well, that's
the thing too.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Especially during covid, it was like, how did you
guys do it?
You know, and they they havetwo videos out on zoom, not so
two videos they created, whichis great, yeah, but yeah, they
had the same thing like oh well,we had that issue because we
had an office band in my, myfirm.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Oh okay, I'm trying to rehearse, you can't?
The lag makes it absolutelyimpossible.
We managed to put one songtogether, but it took one person
almost 24 hours of editing toget all the parts to fit
together.
Yeah, yeah.
So we did do that sea shantythough.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Have you ever saw that oh?
Speaker 4 (09:37):
I did see the sea shanty.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
We did the sea sh was really good fun.
Actually just four voices andthat was a lot easier to edit oh
, oh, yeah, it's somewhere, Ican see it.
It's somewhere online oh, I'dlove to see it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And also actually you know youboth talked that sea shanty is
very interesting because we wewere chatting, we're chatting
over zoom in deep, deep lockdownabout doing a sea shanty and
(10:01):
then also chatting about allwhat life was like, and we
actually got onto theconversation about what you're
going to do when this is overand that's the song.
So it's like a littlehistorical document of what
people were talking about andbasically the theme is we're
going to go to the pub.
Basically the whole song iswe're going to go to the pub
when it's all over.
But it's funny to it becausesome of the things you were
(10:21):
wanting to go to a crowded roomI know is one of the lyrics and
think, gosh, you know who wantsto go to a crowded room, but
back then it's like I want tosee people anyway it's
interesting, it's become apodcast about us.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
We'll let you speak in a moment we should talk more.
I think it was the Leeds.
We do regional events with ourmembers and I think it was our.
Leeds regional event and I waschatting to one of the members
there and he said do you knowwhat you guys are actually doing
on the podcast or what's that?
He said you're actually makinga social history of IP.
That's on the wall.
Yes, that's interesting, yeah,and all of a sudden I felt a
(10:56):
sense of purpose About time.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
No, you're right, you talk about what's topical.
And then actually, I was justhere we go, I'm talking again.
I was listening into a reallygood comedy podcast, but they
started in deep lockdown as welland the conversations they were
having it was a different eraof it.
That's going to come back andyou'll be able to go to those
resources and say that's whatwas going on, right?
Speaker 1 (11:16):
right, so let's get serious about the I-N-T-A.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Okay okay.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
I've learned that my serious voice okay, I need to
say I-N-T-A and not Inter.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
I've learned that today.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Actually, I thought so too, but I was told by a very
senior officer at theorganization which I'll remain
nameless, she wouldn't care thatyou can say both.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
I always thought they were debating information.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
Yeah, I'm deeply confused.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
No, no, well, the thing was too like.
People would say I'll see youat Inter, and I thought, well,
if it's a trademark, shouldn'tyou say I'll see you at the
Inter meeting.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
Yeah, you know, right , you know what I'm saying Very
good.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
But I think the bottom line is people are like
we don't.
We call it Intar Just to addcomplexity to the debate.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
I would love it, like some people call us Kipper, I
would love it.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
I would love it.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
Yeah, start a trend.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
See if it takes.
Can I get back to my serious?
Speaker 1 (12:12):
question oh, yes, yes .
I'm sorry If you're going to bea podcast host for a moment you
interrupted yourself.
I'm sorry.
What was?
My question going to be.
It was the void purpose thatgot me to think about this.
So we quickly found that whatwe started off not as light
hearted, but it was never meantto be really serious, was it?
It was never meant to be formalhas become for us a central
(12:34):
plank of our communicationsstrategy plan it's now.
If we stopped doing it, we wouldlose something which is quite
cool, isn't it?
Speaker 4 (12:41):
Is it the same at INTA?
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Has it become strategically?
Speaker 2 (12:45):
important.
I mean, I hope so For my ownsake.
No, no, I think it is Because Ithink you know I was talking to
my producer, tracy, about thisand saying, you know, being a
lawyer myself, I mean lawyerslike read all the time right,
and trademark administrators.
It's like you're in front of ascreen, you're reading, reading,
(13:05):
reading, reading, reading andyou're absorbing.
It's so refreshing.
I like listen to people talk,do it in a conversational way,
even though you both know thatit, you know, sounds
conversational but it's rigidlyrehearsed and you could learn
something about IP without itbeing like.
You know.
It's a nice break and I thinkthat, to me, that connection I'm
sort of not answering yourquestion, but I'm trying to the
(13:26):
connection with other people,even on a podcast or something I
feel like.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
I learn better, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
I'm a freak because and I'm going to just say it on
this- you can leave it in there.
You know, in law school I wouldhave wouldn't been told before
like the socratic method.
Oh my god, the paper chase.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
It's awful they're gonna ruin your life you're
gonna be.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
You know, I thought it was kind of great and maybe
it was the actor in me, but Ifelt like I learned better that
way, like like a conversationwas how I, I, I studied all the
time.
It didn't matter hearing that,having that dialogue or a
conversation, this, you knowit's a human, that human
connection, you absorb it.
So I think it's to me it is acentral plank of the
(14:11):
communications platform for I&T,because you've got the website,
you've got the emails.
You know this is something, butthis is on Spotify.
I'll just mention, since youasked, you know this is
something, but this is onSpotify.
I'll just mention, since youasked, you know Spotify, apple
Podcasts, like you can find usin more places and I think
that's a good thing and alsopeople can access it, so I tend
to listen to podcasts when I'mrunning or doing a bit of
fishing or something like that.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yeah, yeah and it organically just seems to embed
itself in my brain without meneeding to do too much yeah
brain without me needing to dotoo much.
Yeah, I've got three questionscoming out, that little kind of
piece that you did there.
I know william's got one ofthem written down there, so I'll
leave that one.
I'll leave that one with you soyou can read that upside.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
That's because I can't read that the right way up
.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
So I'll let you come in in a minute.
I'll let you speak again in amoment I'm not gonna be happy.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
I'll have a dip so yeah
Speaker 1 (14:55):
there it is.
There's a dip I have to usethat later.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
No, I'm sorry, trace, I'm having a dip, just moan
silence.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
So you talked about the, so we work quite hard at it
being a conversation.
And sometimes people don'tunderstand how much work there
is in it?
No, it is, it really is One ofthe things that we don't
particularly like butoccasionally people come along
with are scripts.
Do you get guests thatsometimes turn up and they've
actually got a script thatthey're going to work to,
regardless of what you ask them?
Speaker 2 (15:21):
no, I mean, we usually write them and I'll send
them to people and say oh, it'sjust a conversation we do all
of that and then I say but ifyou veer off of this, we're
going to cut it.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
You'll never appear again but don't worry about it,
no pressure no, no, we haven'thad that.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Wow, oh, like, here are the things they want to
cover?
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Yeah, but they tell us what we're going to be saying
as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
These are the questions you're going to ask I
hope it's somebody.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
I know that's crazy.
Yeah, I'm not worried.
Should we be the names?
Speaker 1 (15:49):
later I'll be like uh-oh, no, it's all right.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Wow, we're very open to it.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
we just totally go off script instantly we totally
go off it yeah if you come upwith a script, there's no way
we're sticking to it, so that'salmost the reason to be like
okay, you brought the script.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
I'm sure some people just say what they were going to
say anyway, word for word.
Whatever we say, pretty much Ireckon they just read out what
they were going to say a greatquestion Intellectual property.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
You're like wait a minute?
Wait a minute.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Right, you're like.
The answer is you're like okay,but the other thing is that's
kind of sad, though there's nofun in that.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
You said.
You said when I was in lawschool.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
So tell us a little bit about your professional
background I mentioned earlier.
You know I was for many, manyyears.
I can send you my list ofcredits.
It's short but meaningful.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
No, we didn't ask you about that.
Keep going.
We're coming back to that.
We're coming to that.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
I was really a theatre person loved it.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
I was actually a triple threat, which is an
objective truth.
I could sing, I could dance, Ican act.
Speaker 4 (16:50):
I can still sing.
I can still sing actually.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
So you're better than Fred the St because you can
dance and could act a little,not at that level, can we?
Speaker 1 (17:02):
stick to my question, which was a little bit about
the legal kind of side of thestory.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
You know the true story is, you know, there's the
official, like what I say and topeople, but the you know, the
real truth is I moved to NewYork to be an actor and I had
friends who are still actingfrom Juilliard and they're
brilliant and it's really hardit's.
You know, I used to get mad atmy dad.
He'd be like you know it'sgoing to be a hard life and I'd
(17:26):
be like shut up dad.
And then my friends who weredoing it with this credential,
you know, this amazingexperience.
It's a life you really have tocommit to it and I felt like nah
, and they were like travelingall over and I'm like traveling,
okay, and then you have to sellblood in new york.
I was like that that just soundslike a lot.
So I kind of I'm being a littleflip.
(17:48):
But you know, I kind of made myway into law because I thought,
well, I, like you know, I hadlawyers in the family so and of
course I always thought I'mnever gonna do that.
So, you know, it was kind of anatural thing and I loved
writing, which is something Ididn't as an actor.
I just didn't really do.
I mean, it certainly turned outto be something that was beyond
what I would have imagined, youknow.
But I'm sitting here with youguys in part because I went to
(18:09):
law school, right, yeah, yeahyeah, it's kind of the best of
both worlds.
Like I do not get let go of thatlicense.
But it's great because I don'thave the pressure of clients,
you know, like real people whowant me to do things.
But I still have the license,I'm still in the world and I've
(18:30):
been able to use that degree todo other things which I would
not have been able to do withjust my honors bfa in acting.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
So that's been kind of great, you know can I ask you
about the acting cool, it's socool.
So, julie, are you at juliealso?
You know, I didn't get in.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
I didn't that's a fancy drama school kind of yeah,
yeah, very famous like a lot ofthe people like oscar isaac you
may know from the star wars andother things a lot of famous
people graduate there.
I mean people who are notfamous also, but it's like the
kelsey grammar, oh.
Yeah.
Uh, you know, like a lot offamous people graduate there.
I mean people who are not famousalso, but it's like the kelsey
grammar, oh yeah, uh, you know,like a lot of sort of uh, you
know, it's sort of like the,like the harvard, okay, I would
(19:08):
say of, of, um, of actingtraining I mean there's yale I
would like to go on there too,which is meryl streep.
Okay, how much time we have,meryl streep.
You know?
John turturro, people like that, yeah, julia was more like the.
If you want to be a classicallytrained American actor and do
Shakespeare, kevin Kline youknow?
Oh, really.
Yeah yeah, yeah, that was sortof.
(19:30):
That was the place for the.
You know are going to doShakespeare in the Park.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
And so you mentioned that you've got a range of
talents there.
So are you in musical theatremore or all different stuff?
Well, as you mentioned, I was.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
I did a lot of musical theatre.
Right, because I justcompletely loved it, Like
singing is such a total blast.
Yes, I did a lot of Shakespeare.
I did Iago and Othello, whichwas I'm sure I have.
The local college reviews werevery, very, If they're online,
which I'd be surprised if theywere he was really good until he
(20:05):
started singing and dancing.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
That wasn't in the play came here for legal advice
exactly.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Oh, I never thought about that when I was in
practice.
I could have just like right incourt in New York court, just
been like your honor, justbreaking.
Can you imagine?
I mean those New York judgeswould have been like bailiff
remove him that was it.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
I was really interested.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
I did Greek Tragedy also.
In was really interested.
I did Greek Tragedy also inwhich I did sing.
I did a production of Persians.
This is totally going to be cutright.
Speaker 4 (20:40):
On.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Aeschylus like the first surviving Greek Tragedy.
Persians, I played as they didin the original because there
were no women because youbecause there were no women?
Because you know doing womencan't do that role they're too
busy doing other things.
I did the queen and then I didher son.
So the first time I was thequeen, and then the, and as the
son I sang and danced.
(21:02):
I mean, it was about death anddying, but you can still sing
yeah, you can sing and you dance.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Just more sympathetically right, exactly
yes sad dogs.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
I've got one of them.
You had a question, there was aquestion brewing and all of
that oh sorry, there was nothingto do with that at all actually
.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
No, we kind of jumped over a little bit about the
name of the podcast actually yes, yes, you mentioned the
ampersand, but brand yeah, it'sup here in the booth.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Yes, yes, there it is it is quite clever, not brand
new, a piece of the board I lovethat.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
No, I do love that.
I'm not just saying it becauseI'm a guest.
I think that is just, can I say, adorable.
It really is.
No, no, it is, it is we werequite.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Occasionally you get guests on that are quite
prestigious, don't you?
We had quite a well known UKpolitical commentator come on,
yeah, yeah, yeah because he alsohe does myth busting and and
stuff like that and they've donesome work around IP.
So we had him on to talk aboutthat and the first thing he said
to us was this is best name forpodcast, but I think, brand new
is better brand new is muchbetter.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Yeah, it's really brand new, just my own product.
But I think you guys are andyou've got that cute little
graphic.
I mean, come on.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
I have to whenever I get my glasses done same glasses
, so I look like my media imagenow it's ridiculous.
But yeah, no, it's great.
Then I mean brand new.
It's clever it.
You see it first with brand newand then it jumps into yeah,
yeah done actually, and it's gotmeaning as well yeah, I'm like
two ips in the pod, it's just agood joke.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
So we have a backstory which don't often tell
on the podcast about that, andthat's that.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
It wasn't our original choice of name oh, so
we were going, so we were goingto be Idea Suit, if you remember
, and you got sued.
No, no, well, no, no.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
We found that there was someone who was using it on.
Was it Instagram or somethinglike?
Speaker 4 (22:41):
that he had a very small number of followers.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Oh wow.
So we were in the IP space,you're not just going to trample
over.
Someone Right reached out andwe said look, you know, we're
kind of invested in this.
We like the name, you know.
Quite happy for you to carry on, but do you mind if we do this?
And he said well, actually Iwas thinking about doing a
podcast in the future.
He never did, but I was thinkingabout doing a podcast in the
future and we thought, well, wecan't do that but actually what
we came up with is more relevantto what we do anyway, yeah, and
(23:05):
then yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
So we have worked every possible pun out of every
version of it over the years.
Do you remember the favouriteone?
Actually, just quickly, we dida band night, don't you remember
?
We called it Patents Act.
Yeah, I was quite proud of that.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Oh, I like the black eyed peas.
Yeah, that was our office bandfor black eyed peas.
Speaker 4 (23:25):
That's good, that's good.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
I think there's nothing left now.
I'm pretty sure we have onewith James Bond films but with
IP puns on it, and the best oneI saw wasn't me, it was somebody
who said the Dutch for patentis octroi, like natal edge
octroi bureau just octroi pussyit was just brilliant.
Now, that's just too neat, allyou need to do is know James
(23:51):
Bond IP and.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
Dutch bang, yeah, yeah All you need to do is know
James Bond IP and Dutch Bangyeah.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
We're close to time, willard, okay.
One of the things that I do onthe podcast is keep an eye on
the drop, which is why I'venormally got it running.
Willard's now looking at whowe've got next.
Okay next.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
I was told this was going to be yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Oh, this is a pinnacle.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
This is a pinnacle should we just drop that mic.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Do not drop my expensive mic.
They're a cheap mic I can drop.
So are you sat there thinkingthank god they didn't ask me
that, or I really wanted to talkabout this?
Is there a piece of the jigsawmissing?
Tough question, I know sorry no, I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
I mean I don't.
Yeah, there's nothing that Iwas surprised or bored by in the
questioning, excellent.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
Excellent.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Well, you know what?
Speaker 2 (24:41):
And this will be obsequious flattery, but it's
true, I mean listening to youguys before you know to get's ip
and but they're, it's like funand you guys are really good and
my producer, tracy, has told methis before like just and I.
(25:03):
I interestingly, as an actor, Ihave trouble a little going off
script because wait a minute.
Wait a minute.
Yeah, you know, like you don'thave to cover it all, you,
there's a flow here that I love,like you're just you're in it.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Oh, that's so nice.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
However, the conversation's going, you run
with it.
You know that's, but that's noteasy.
In my having done threeepisodes myself.
You know it's actually it'shard to do.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
You make it seem easy , but it's actually.
I would say that's what we'vegot better at, because if I
listen back to the earlier ones,it was very much well Gwilym's
time to ask a question, whereasnow we don't do that do we?
Speaker 3 (25:38):
We just kind of no.
Occasionally we'll be messagingoff on the side.
I'll just say, right, you're up, or whatever it might be, but
yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
And it does make more of a.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Occasionally, you get those tumbleweed moments and we
know how each other thinks.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Yeah, which is great.
There's like a flow to it, likethis flow was really great, you
know, like it.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
So I'd like to, I'd like to.
I'm going to take that away andtry to do that.
You need a co-host, as in aco-hosted host, it does seem
like it's really fun.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
Obviously, no one knows what Inter's going to be
next year.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Only our NTA.
Thank you, no next year.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
Oh, the INTA, thank you.
No one knows what the INTA isgoing to be or what it's, how
it's going to be pronouncedhopefully.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
I know nothing.
I know nothing we're enjoyingthis.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
I think we should link up and do more together we
could do something reallyexciting next year once we know
where it is.
No, no, no, this was a treat,this is a total treat, and an
honor like you guys are againsequestrated.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
But truly like, you're really good like it's no,
no, no, I mean.
I'm learning a lot.
I think we've got all this.
Yeah, it's true, it's really.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Oh no, there was a power outage oh no, you're not
allowed to speak on the podcast,you're the producer oh no, she
exists, it's true, thank you somuch for sharing the talk with
us.
It's been a pleasure, it's beena pleasure.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
This was a blast, a total blast yeah, no, no, no,
really, yeah, yeah.
I don't say that.
I won't say that to otherpeople around, so trust me, I
mean it yeah, thank you so muchokay, we'll see you next time.
Speaker 4 (27:26):
Two IPs in a.
Two IPs in a.
Two IPs in a.
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