June 21, 2024 • 31 mins
Today, The Two Mikes welcomed Dr. Anne Bradley to our podcast to speak about a man named Hugh Whelchel, who has passed away.
Dr. Bradley worked with Mr. Whelchel at the Institute for Faith, Work, and Economics in Northern Virginia. Dr. Bradley remembers Mr. Whelchel as a friend who had the unique ability to teach the theology of life, work and family; indeed, he was a man who could "bring theology to life for Christians." He spoke clearly and with a passion, Dr. Bradley explained, and "it made people want to take the time to speak more with him."
Mr. Whelchel was never in a rush, and spent time answering questions as long as people had questions to ask. He told his audiences to always recall that God created each person not only in His image and likeness, but also created each person "to be something that only you can be."
Mr. Whelchel, Dr. Bradley said, can truly be described as a "magnanimous" human being, who had a deep knowledge of scripture, genuine humbleness, and great skill at getting diverse groups of people to sit around the table and work through problems, ideas, and aspirations.
Mr. Whelchel is sorely missed by those who knew him and heard him speak, but some of his writings still remain available at the Institute's website, https://www.tifwe.org.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Hi, This is Colonel Mike andthis next show coming up is very personal.
We were on with doctor Anne Bradley, a friend of the show,
and we spoke Mike and I spokeabout a great man that used to be
on with us in radio and justa little bit of podcasting because that's when
he fell ill. You wealth showof the Institute for Faith Work and Economics.
(00:28):
So we want you to listen tothe show about a great man.
And for all of you who areinvolved with the Institute or met have visited
the institute, we hope you getto listen to this and send it to
your friends and others of the institute. He will be missed. He was
a great guy and we were happyto do this with doctor Bradley five four
(01:19):
three two one. Hey, welcomeback your own two Mike's Doctor Michael Schuyer,
New York Times bestselling author, andColonel Mike. Today we have a
very special show for you. Butbefore we go right to the guest,
I want to remind you to goto two Mike's dot U s tw o
Mike dot Us. We have somebodynew up there at affiliate. If you're
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(01:42):
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(02:05):
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(02:27):
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comments. We have a section ifyou just fill in whatever comments. And
thank you to Jeff and Teddy whosent us comments on our national show.
We want to thank you for that. So with that, let's go right
to our guest, doctor Anne Bradley, who was the former vice president of
(02:50):
the Institute for Faith Work and Economics. I've never met her personally. She
was on with us a couple ofyears back, oh way back, when
we were on radios, on acouple of podcasts on two mics. By
the way, we passed the fourthyear. We're going on a fifth year.
We almost got five hundred shows.Guys, almost five hundred shows.
Thank you to everybody around the globeand in America for keeping us on.
(03:14):
And Doctor Bradley and I are goingto talk about a really great man who
passed away just recently who ran that. His name was Dr hu weshell Am
I saying the correct danshell right?Yeah, well okay, And I met
him in person a few times.It's a great You can go to the
website. It's a t I fwedot org and there's still there's articles from
(03:40):
you, wash Wellshill there and youcan see the first article that pops up
is about flourishing and if you're aChristian or not, it's worth going to
visit. So we want to doa little tribute to this man that was
a great man. Died very young, got sick and in a couple of
years he just faded and then hassaway. So and why did you take
(04:00):
it away? And we both knowhim. You knew him a lot better
than I did. But the timeI spent with him, which was short,
it was fantastic. Yes, Imean he was just If I use
one to describe Hugh, hang on, and you're breaking up, bring it
up a little bit, you're breakingup? I think that is can you
(04:25):
hear me? Hello? Okay,the connection here? Okay, let's start
again. Go ahead here, canyou hear me? Yes, it's clear,
now go ahead, okay. Uh. I think if I could use
one word to describe Hugh, itwould be magnanimous, which is who he
(04:49):
was as a person, as aas a personality. And I think what
the world is lacking is just thislarger than life op mystic personality paired with
a deep commitment to Christ, adeep commitment to understanding theology, but it's
(05:09):
practical implications to life. So hewasn't just kind of an an academic who,
you know, kind of didn't seethe practical application of what he was
thinking about when he was researching scripture. But he wanted to bring theology to
life for everyone, and he didthat through his career. I mean,
that's exactly how I knew him.He started along with a few other people.
(05:34):
I was one of them, butI wasn't even part of the early
conversations of starting the Institute for FaithWork and Economics. That was Hugh and
Paul Brooks and theologian Art Lensley,and they had this idea and they were
able to raise money to make ithappen. And the idea was, we
need to bring theology to life forChristians. We need to you know,
(05:59):
we wanted to talk about the world. We wanted to talk about politics,
we wanted to talk about real lifeissues. But we didn't want to be
another kind of policy shop, becauseof course Washington, d c. Is
filled with policy shops. We thoughtit was more important to try to help
people understand the theology of life andwork and family and then have them come
(06:21):
to their own conclusions. And soin that way, I think Hugh was
brilliant because I think so many wellmeaning think tanks get so caught up in
the machinations of politics that they kindof lose their way a little bit,
and Hugh was committed to never doingthat, and that was just really his
whole life I mean he had avariety of different careers and you know,
(06:45):
kind of the Institute of Faith Workand Economics or if we was, where
he spent the remainder of his professionallife. And I think, you know,
Hugh was just a gift to theworld. It was just my honor
and privilege to work with him.You know, he did bring up a
an enormous amount of different different peoplefrom different backgrounds to some of these meetings,
like the ones I attended in theafternoon at his office where they had
(07:09):
a conference table. It was justa tremendous group of people that would go
there and listen to either you orArt Lindsay whoever was available to speak.
And you know, they host thelunch once in a while, but in
the evening ones was I don't knowwhat, I've seen as high as seventy
five people show up when they hadthe top floor where they were getting the
(07:30):
top floor in the Native building inTyson's Corner, and I met people that
I haven't seen in twenty years andhad shoved up with this and I was
like, wow, you know aboutthis place because I found about I found
out about it pretty late in thegame. I guess what thirteen years ago
we were on radio. Mike,Yes, yeah, so it's probably about
(07:51):
I'd say I've found out about itabout fifteen years ago and he was on
radio with us a few times whenwe're on radio. Back then. He
was a tremendous man and this youknow, he wrote very well, like
you, I mean, you knowyou're you write very well. And he
had a great impact on the averageperson about bringing Christianity to the workplace,
(08:13):
you don't working, you know,the foundations of Christianity and how we should
flourish and how what is it shalom? He had some articles on shalom in
peace and on just a tremendous man. And it's amazing that when he when
he spoke with me, when hediscovered that he had this, uh was
was als. I was like shocked. This guy's just a big teddy bear,
(08:35):
you know, and you said,wow, look at this, How
could this happen? You know whathappened to him? And you know,
we spoke for a while until hereally got sick and he was away for
a while and uh after that,he was on a machine. We tried
to get him on. It waskind of hard when we started the podcast
and it was kind of hard toget him on because of his bringing,
but just a tremendous person and wewant to honor him. Mike, you
(08:58):
have something to say, you know, well, it's certainly the few times
that I spoke with him on ourprogram, it was very just as doctor
Bradley said, he was very concernedwith making scripture available and pertinent everyday life.
And I just you know, I'vegone to now this church I go
(09:20):
to here in Virginia since we movedhere four years ago, and there was
very little in the preachings of ourpriests, at least that deals with everyday
problems, the state of the country, what a good citizen should do according
to the Bible. And I thinkfrom again from my little experience, was
(09:46):
very interested in that kind of thing. Yes, that's you don't just preach
about saving your soul and sending youror getting yourself into heaven, but to
make the role of the citizen,that the citizen Christian, a powerful one,
not in terms of weapons or armsor strength, but in terms of
(10:11):
rhetoric that speaks to the needs ofeveryday people and their problems and their hopes
and dreams, and that kind ofthing. And he was just even over
the airways of the telephone. Hewas a very inspiring man. Yes,
he was just larger than life.And I think what the power that that
(10:33):
brings to what he was trying todo is that he was able to bring
people to the table to have discussions. And it was, like you said,
Colonel Mike, you know, there'sseventy five people there. They're from
all walks of life. They weren'tjust business leaders, they weren't just academics,
they weren't just pastors. They werethose things. But he was really
able to bring together diverse people.And as you said, doctor Mick,
(10:54):
I mean he was very passionate aboutthis idea. He was, and I
think you wanted to listen to himbecause of that, you you know,
and he lingered, and he lovedpeople and he wanted to talk to people.
He wasn't ever in a rush toend a meeting, he wasn't ever
(11:16):
in a rush to get up fromlunch early, and so there was such
a genuineness about who he was,and again I think that made him a
really great spokesperson for this kind ofwhole life theology, which included work of
course that if we were spent alot of time talking about work. And
you're right, doctor Mike, thatI think when you go to church and
(11:39):
you sit in the pews, we'renot hearing about work. And he thought
that was a problem. This iswhere people spend forty sixty seventy hours a
week maybe more. He was abeliever that we should wake up and say
thank God it's Monday instead of sayingthank God it's Friday, you know,
(12:01):
And he thought he thought that wasnot just a cultural problem like work as
a drug. And you know,you look at all the polling and the
statistics, and all these Americans arevery unhappy with their job. And you
know, he said, look,that's because we're doing it wrong. God
created you to be something only youcan be. And it's it's interesting because
(12:22):
I was just asked to give ahigh school graduation commencement speech, which I've
never done before. It was lastweek a small Christian school, Fairfax Christian
School. Might my kids attend thatschool? And I said, sure,
I would love to do this.And so to get inspired, I actually
went to Hugh you know, Iwent to his writings and I was that
(12:43):
that really I wanted to speak tothese high school graduates about the things I
thought Hugh would want me to tellthem, which is, the world is
going to tell you two things.One that you can be anything you want
to be. And I said,that's just a lie. And then you
you can be the best in theworld, also a lie. And these
(13:03):
are very disillusioning lies. So firstof all, you can be anything you
want to be. I mean,it's not like we're going to a restaurant,
right and you you have, youknow, one hundred dollars, so
you can buy anything that's under onehundred dollars. That's not what your life
is about. And so we thought, and we talked a lot at if
we and this is all inspired byHugh that no, you're created in God's
image, in his likeness. Weare a mago day. That gives you
(13:26):
dignity, it gives you purpose,but it also means you're unique. There's
never been another you to walk theplanet. And so your job is to
figure out what that is, andthen your job is to do it with
excellence. That is, you knowthe old Army slogan, be all that
you can be. Oh yes,yes, that's like good theology right according
(13:48):
to Hugh, and I think he'sabsolutely right, it's be all that you
can be, not be anything youthink you can be, you know,
And I gave the example of myspeeches, like everybody's talking about Caitlin Clark
because she's just amazing, right,perhaps the best collegiate basketball player ever.
Time will tell, of course,but I can't beat her. I could
(14:09):
play basketball eighty hours a week andit's never going to happen because that's not
who I am. That's not whatGod created me to be. And I
can't be the best in the world. I'm an economist. There's lots of
economists. I can just only bethe economist God calls me to be.
And I have to always try todiscern that. And I think that is
the message that the new up andcoming generations need to hear. Not be
(14:31):
Caitlin Clark. You can't be that. She can only be Caitlin Clark.
But you have to be the bestyou that you can be, knowing that
that's what God created you to be. And when we change our thinking along
those lines, it's very fulfilling andpowerful. It's like, Okay, I
can't wait for Monday because in theworkplace, at least, Monday is a
place that I can serve other peoplewith my God given gifts. Now,
(14:54):
Hugh didn't want us to only thinkabout work. Right, we do this
in our church, in our marriages, in our families. I'm a daughter,
I'm a mother, I'm a cousin, I'm a niece, you know,
I'm all these things. I'm awife, and so I have to
work in all of those capacities.So, you know, he didn't want
to limit this to just the workplace, but he thought that in churches were
(15:16):
just completely ignoring work. It's like, yeah, God doesn't care if you're
an accountant. That's just a jobso that you can make money, take
care of your family and tithe.And if we limit our thinking of work
to that, it's very depressing andalienating, you know. And one of
the evening meetings we want to upon the top floor there and the higher
floors than native building. It wasamazing. I walked in one night.
(15:39):
I came in a little late.They started up, and I met people
I knew that were at the Pentagon. I met people I knew that were
in Congress, and I'm like,wow, you guys have showing up here
too. It was like I hadno idea and This was across party lines,
by the way. I mean,I've seen Democrats there and Republicans there,
and I said, they really knowhow to round up people, and
(16:00):
people were starving for this kind ofinformation. You know. It's just I
think it doesn't matter how titled orhi powered your position is, how many
letters are after your name, howmuch money you make. We're all just
yearning for meaning, right, We'reyearning for this purpose. And Hugh brought
(16:25):
that to life by saying it's inthe theology, it's in scripture, it's
there for us, and it's beenthere from the beginning. So I you
know, I was raised as aChristian in a Christian home. My parents
are believers. We're raising our childrenthat way now. And I'm an economist
by training. And it wasn't untilI went to If We to Work that
(16:48):
I really was able to put economicsand theology together. I mean it was
uniquely through that experience that I wasable to say, oh, okay,
wait, you know, economists believeso much in abundance, prosperity, longer,
you know, healthier lives. Thisis why we're pro growth. We're
not pro growth just because growth isgood for its own sake. It's because
(17:11):
of what it gives you to livein a pro growth society, right,
Families are taking care of communities,thrive, all these things. And it
wasn't until you know, under Hugheskind of inspiration and mentorship, that I
was truly able to put those thingstogether that this is actually not just about
economics, but it's connected to whatwe learn in Genesis. So we spent
(17:32):
a lot of time at if wetwo theologists and an economist, among other
kind of really important staff that werethere, of course, but you know,
kind of we were developing the content. We thought, okay, we
got to start with Genesis. Genesisis where we learn about who we are,
about God's design of his creation andhis desires for his creation. It's
(17:53):
right there in the first chapter,and I think most Christians have never read
it that way. We've read itas a historical account of creation, which
of course it is that, butit's so much more. We're told about
the Creator. You know. Qcalled it the creation mandate, or it's
also known as the cultural mandate,where God says, be fruitful and multiply.
(18:14):
Well, what does that mean?We know what multiply means. We
know it's important to families and raisedchildldren. But what does be fruitful mean?
And it means a lot of thingsabout the marketplace, about work,
about vocation, and so that wasvery powerful for me personally and professionally to
walk that journey. It really openedmy eyes in a new way. Doctor
(18:34):
Mike, if you ever met himin person, you would have been very,
very impressed. I bet I wasimpressed when I heard him on the
phone. And I think the ideais idea that be the best what you
can be at what you can do, and not the best thing in the
world at anything. You know,we we we really abuse that idea.
I think of you can be whateveryou want. You know, how many
(19:00):
kids have we seen get to themajor leagues in baseball and they're going to
be, all of a sudden thenext Joe DiMaggio or the next Mickey Mantle
or the next Sandy Kofax, Andof course they last two or three seasons
and that's it. They never becomethe best, and they end up drunk
or they end up you know,working with it because they have little education,
(19:22):
and it's it's there's many many examplesof that. I think the whole
for example, the whole college basketballworld yields an enormous number of kids who
thought they were going to be aprofessional player and end up being addicts or
unemployed or drunks or whatever at theend of the day because they could make
(19:45):
their dream because the game was unrealistic. Right, it's you know, you've
got to give a person a chanceto make mistakes and to understand not only
what he can do, about whathis limits are. Absolutely, and that
failure is so important for our growthand learning. Right there's I mean,
(20:07):
I'm raising two children right now,and so it's it's the culture is just
working against what we're really supposed tobe doing. And I and I think
your point is so valid. It'sI think one part, doctor Mike,
of your point that's really important isthat because we prize perfectionism, you got
to be the best. I mean, I have two kids that are in
sports, and so when I lookat youth sports in Northern Virginia, it's
(20:30):
kind of the insanity starts at avery early age. And my husband's like,
you guys kill us in lacrosse allthe time, by the way,
so good job with that. Butyou know, my daughter's ten, she
plays lacrosse, and you know,she's ten, so I'm not really worried
(20:51):
about if she's going to play incollege. Most people don't. It's okay,
she can. You know, myhusband's always saying, is she having
fun, she being active, shelearned learning, she learning how to play
with others and get coached. Theseare what matter. But the culture is
like, okay, attend you knowwhat college, you're going to play lacrosse.
I mean, that's an insane kindof mentality. And then these kids
(21:14):
get burnt out in high school insome cases and they quit. And so
the dream, You're right, thedream is unrealistic. The dream is so
singular that it focuses on like whatI'm good right now, which might not
be the whole breadth of my skillsand who I am. And so I
think we disillusion young adults. Andthen the young adults have this perception that,
(21:37):
you know, by twenty two,they need to have like made it
in life, which is crazy andso just disillusioning for them. But I
mean, what is going on inthe workplace as well, because their expectations
are unrealistic about how fast they're goingto develop and get raises, and they're
just not learning how to fail.Failure is you know, you need to
(22:00):
fail a test. You're going tolose games, You're going to fail in
your friendships and relationships, and thoseare opportunities for us to grow and to
learn and to become better. Butperfectionism is the enemy. And so I
think you know, the broad thetheological narrative that Hugh was really trying to
bring to the table. It takesoff the table this idea that you have
(22:23):
to be the best in the worldand you have to know that early and
you could be anything you desire tobe, and and shifts it to say,
I mean, Hugh used to alwayssay with pride. He would do
a lot of public speaking because hewas an incredible speaker, very just so
charismatic, wasn't he just really bythe way too, he was. He
(22:48):
was just a very humble man.Humble but like six three or six four,
right, a big teddy bear andjust loved people. And he would
go give these talks and he wouldtalk about this and say, look,
when you reorient your attitude about whoyou are, and work is just paid.
Work is just one aspect of whoyou are. And if God calls
you to do something then you doit with excellence, and in that you're
(23:11):
able to glorify him by living outyour purpose and serving others. And then
he would say, the janitor hasas much dignity and importance as the CEO.
He would say that to CEOs.He would say that to people who
were janitors, and he had peoplecome up to him after his talks weeping
(23:32):
because nobody had ever told them thatthat being a janitor is terrible. Working
for minimum wage is terrible. Societylooks down on you, and your whole
goal is to get out of thereas fast as possible. And of course
some people start as janitors and don'tend as janitors, but some people remain
janitors for forty years and they canhave fulfillment in that if that's what God
wants you to do right now,right And so we would tie that idea
(23:55):
to this is why we need aproductive, free market economy, because only
in that type of economy can peopleunleash their human creativity. And the janitor
has income mobility, and the janitorcan take care of his family. But
again, going back to Northern Virginia, a place that I'm from, so
you know, hopefully I'm not partof the problem. But the culture here
is kind of very toxic along theseideas. I can't imagine hearing seeing,
(24:18):
you know, kind of people thatlive in Northern Virginia brag about their high
school graduate going to electric you know, being an electrician and getting a fact.
You know, what I noticed aboutnorthern Virginia and because I moved I
moved there probably about what forty twoyears forty three years ago from New York
City, and what I noticed atthat time it was pretty much, you
(24:41):
know, it was country issue wasstill fair facts or fair facts or whatever,
but it was it was small,it was smaller government. But when
you go there today, these kidsare so privileged in northern of it.
They have no idea what the restof the country is unless they've been there.
They have no idea what other otherkids do in other parts of the
(25:03):
country, the CLA, New York, whatever. But it's a very privileged
group in Northern Virginia. And Iknow, probably I think about what you're
dealing with with young students, butI would say this for parents to make
them understand what happens with failure.If you read Henry Ford, Henry Ford
was a major failure. Many timesbefore he was a success. And there's
(25:25):
other stories like that. You know, Henry Ford didn't overnight become Ford Motor
Company, which became the biggest atthe time. You know. And when
I look at Ford and I lookat companies like Volvo and stuff like that,
you say, these guys are legends. They've been out there for years.
But you look at their stock andyou say, like, how come
they're only like this much money?It's because of mismanagement and so on.
(25:47):
But Henry Ford is a great bookto read. It's a great read for
children to read to know that failureis okay because you get success through having
a couple of failures. If that'swhat they're looking for, you know,
absolutely, And I think those arethe you know, the Hugh used to
joke about the old adage that likethe C students run the world, not
(26:07):
the straight A students, And youknow, there's something to be said about
that, because I think if you'restruggling and you have to work hard for
your grades, even if you can'tmake the A or the B all the
time, you know what it lookslike to to really have grit. I've
come to just love this word,and it's a. It's it's a value
I want to teach my own children, but my students as well. Don't
(26:30):
give up at the first side offailure. You use that to make you
better. And I also think thatwhat comes along with that attitude is we
should seek out critical feedback. Weshould look for it. We should not
just surround ourselves with people who aregoing to always tell us we're doing a
great job. But you know thatthat critical feedback can make us better if
(26:51):
we let it. And so that'sthe Henry Ford's and the Walt Disney's and
these people who failed, failed,failed, failed. If they had given
up at the first failure, whatwould the world look like today? I
was a very differend. You wehave to teach these kids not to give
up so quickly. Well, yeah, I was just going to say that.
My dad always said that pain.Pain is one of the greatest teachers
(27:11):
in life, whether it's a disappointmentfor not you know, making a team,
if it's a d when you expectit to be, or if if
you're if you don't feel well andyou still get up and go to work
because you've got to work for yourfamily. You know, that's the kind
(27:32):
of thing that that it teaches youhow really tough in a good sense,
that human beings can be in pursuingtheir their livelihoods by executing their responsibilities.
And I if that more of thatcame from the pulpit, yes it would,
it would be a great thing forall of America. I could not
(27:55):
agree more. I could not agreemore. I remember being in graduate school
to George Mason when I was startedmy first year. Walter Williams was our
department chair, so you can imaginewhat that was like. It was just
an amazing, amazing place. ButWalter pulled no punches, you know,
I mean he would give you thatfeedback. I mean, he was just
a remarkable person. But I rememberbeing in a class, if you can
(28:18):
imagine, called mathematical economics, firstyear PhD class. I mean, it's
all math seven to ten pm Tuesdaynights. Horrible, Okay, horrible.
I'm just trying to survive. AndI just remember being in that class and
thinking, I am definitely the dumbestperson in this room. The professor's talking
about math. I'm not even tracking. And it was one of those moments
(28:38):
where like the tears kind of youcould feel him coming up through your throat,
you know, and I thought,I'm gonna quit. I cannot do
this. There's no way I'm gonnamake it. And I'm so glad I
didn't quit. I just have tosay, I have to work harder.
Other people here are way smarter thanme, and that's okay. I can
learn from them, but that's that'snot easy. It wasn't easy for me
(29:00):
to do that. But I thinklooking back now, that was good for
me. That was, you know, that developed some fortitude that I need
to have in my life and thatwe all need to have in our life.
So we all have those moments whereit's like I can't do this,
but maybe I need anything going.And Mason was very fortunate to have Walter
Williams, who was really one ofthe best professors out, one of the
(29:22):
smartest guys I've heard, you know. He used to write for The Times,
you know, for the while,and I was like, wow,
George Mason got Walter Williams and hecould have probably been in any school in
the country. You agree with that. I agree with that, I mean,
I absolutely agree with that. Anelite economist who not only was just
prolific writer, but you know,published academic articles in top journals, books
(29:47):
and newspaper op eds and articles.He was just just prolific in all of
what he did, and he putup with zero nonsense. And so he
was a force to be wrecked andwith by people who disagreed with him.
And we need more people like that. Again, Walter Williams is somebody who
in some ways used humor to dosome of that. But he was winsome,
(30:08):
he was witty, but he wasno nonsense, and I think that
allowed him not to be knocked downbecause his narrative was countercultural for sure,
right, And so yeah, andso that you have to be tough,
you have to be really tough.Yeah, well, let's wrap it up.
I mean, this has been agreat conversation. I'm glad you spent
(30:30):
some time with us to speak aboutyou. And uh, you know,
I wanted to do this for awhile. You know, I missed.
I missed the memorial by one dayand I got noticed. I was like,
oh wow, I was there yesterday. If I were have looked,
I could have got in there.But oh god. Yeah, he's a
great loss and we'll always remember him. And the website's still available. I
(30:52):
checked recently. You can still dosome many articles on there, so we'll
put that in the footnotes. AndDoc Dan Bradley, we want to thank
you for coming on again to thetwo mits, and and uh speaking about
a good friend that we lost thisyear. Yes, well i'm it's I'm
glad we could honor him. Thankyou for having me all right, Thank
you for yest, Thank you verymuch, Thank you by ye
Hi, This is Colonel Mike andthis next show coming up is very personal.
We were on with doctor Anne Bradley, a friend of the show,
and we spoke Mike and I spokeabout a great man that used to be
on with us in radio and justa little bit of podcasting because that's when
he fell ill. You wealth showof the Institute for Faith Work and Economics.
(00:28):
So we want you to listen tothe show about a great man.
And for all of you who areinvolved with the Institute or met have visited
the institute, we hope you getto listen to this and send it to
your friends and others of the institute. He will be missed. He was
a great guy and we were happyto do this with doctor Bradley five four
(01:19):
three two one. Hey, welcomeback your own two Mike's Doctor Michael Schuyer,
New York Times bestselling author, andColonel Mike. Today we have a
very special show for you. Butbefore we go right to the guest,
I want to remind you to goto two Mike's dot U s tw o
Mike dot Us. We have somebodynew up there at affiliate. If you're
having a problem, you know withthese payments and all all this stuff.
(01:42):
If it's woke and if you're Christian, if you're this, if you're that,
there's somebody came aboard and you couldjust use the QR code there,
scan it and they'll take care ofwhatever you need for your payments, your
small business whatever. It's gab payand uh we we're going to have Dan
on the show to discuss it.So anybody needs help your scandidates on two
(02:05):
Mike dot us. Then if yougo to the bottom, go to the
bottom. Don't forget to go tothe bottom of the page. Doctor Mike's
blog is there, and we havea couple of other of our affiliate and
sponsors EMP Shield, our goal Guy. Hey, if you got in with
us a couple of years ago whenI was signed on, you probably made
about four hundred bucks in gold already. So check out our goal guy dot
(02:27):
com and a couple of our otherfriends emp shield, and please leave your
comments. We have a section ifyou just fill in whatever comments. And
thank you to Jeff and Teddy whosent us comments on our national show.
We want to thank you for that. So with that, let's go right
to our guest, doctor Anne Bradley, who was the former vice president of
(02:50):
the Institute for Faith Work and Economics. I've never met her personally. She
was on with us a couple ofyears back, oh way back, when
we were on radios, on acouple of podcasts on two mics. By
the way, we passed the fourthyear. We're going on a fifth year.
We almost got five hundred shows.Guys, almost five hundred shows.
Thank you to everybody around the globeand in America for keeping us on.
(03:14):
And Doctor Bradley and I are goingto talk about a really great man who
passed away just recently who ran that. His name was Dr hu weshell Am
I saying the correct danshell right?Yeah, well okay, And I met
him in person a few times.It's a great You can go to the
website. It's a t I fwedot org and there's still there's articles from
(03:40):
you, wash Wellshill there and youcan see the first article that pops up
is about flourishing and if you're aChristian or not, it's worth going to
visit. So we want to doa little tribute to this man that was
a great man. Died very young, got sick and in a couple of
years he just faded and then hassaway. So and why did you take
(04:00):
it away? And we both knowhim. You knew him a lot better
than I did. But the timeI spent with him, which was short,
it was fantastic. Yes, Imean he was just If I use
one to describe Hugh, hang on, and you're breaking up, bring it
up a little bit, you're breakingup? I think that is can you
(04:25):
hear me? Hello? Okay,the connection here? Okay, let's start
again. Go ahead here, canyou hear me? Yes, it's clear,
now go ahead, okay. Uh. I think if I could use
one word to describe Hugh, itwould be magnanimous, which is who he
(04:49):
was as a person, as aas a personality. And I think what
the world is lacking is just thislarger than life op mystic personality paired with
a deep commitment to Christ, adeep commitment to understanding theology, but it's
(05:09):
practical implications to life. So hewasn't just kind of an an academic who,
you know, kind of didn't seethe practical application of what he was
thinking about when he was researching scripture. But he wanted to bring theology to
life for everyone, and he didthat through his career. I mean,
that's exactly how I knew him.He started along with a few other people.
(05:34):
I was one of them, butI wasn't even part of the early
conversations of starting the Institute for FaithWork and Economics. That was Hugh and
Paul Brooks and theologian Art Lensley,and they had this idea and they were
able to raise money to make ithappen. And the idea was, we
need to bring theology to life forChristians. We need to you know,
(05:59):
we wanted to talk about the world. We wanted to talk about politics,
we wanted to talk about real lifeissues. But we didn't want to be
another kind of policy shop, becauseof course Washington, d c. Is
filled with policy shops. We thoughtit was more important to try to help
people understand the theology of life andwork and family and then have them come
(06:21):
to their own conclusions. And soin that way, I think Hugh was
brilliant because I think so many wellmeaning think tanks get so caught up in
the machinations of politics that they kindof lose their way a little bit,
and Hugh was committed to never doingthat, and that was just really his
whole life I mean he had avariety of different careers and you know,
(06:45):
kind of the Institute of Faith Workand Economics or if we was, where
he spent the remainder of his professionallife. And I think, you know,
Hugh was just a gift to theworld. It was just my honor
and privilege to work with him.You know, he did bring up a
an enormous amount of different different peoplefrom different backgrounds to some of these meetings,
like the ones I attended in theafternoon at his office where they had
(07:09):
a conference table. It was justa tremendous group of people that would go
there and listen to either you orArt Lindsay whoever was available to speak.
And you know, they host thelunch once in a while, but in
the evening ones was I don't knowwhat, I've seen as high as seventy
five people show up when they hadthe top floor where they were getting the
(07:30):
top floor in the Native building inTyson's Corner, and I met people that
I haven't seen in twenty years andhad shoved up with this and I was
like, wow, you know aboutthis place because I found about I found
out about it pretty late in thegame. I guess what thirteen years ago
we were on radio. Mike,Yes, yeah, so it's probably about
(07:51):
I'd say I've found out about itabout fifteen years ago and he was on
radio with us a few times whenwe're on radio. Back then. He
was a tremendous man and this youknow, he wrote very well, like
you, I mean, you knowyou're you write very well. And he
had a great impact on the averageperson about bringing Christianity to the workplace,
(08:13):
you don't working, you know,the foundations of Christianity and how we should
flourish and how what is it shalom? He had some articles on shalom in
peace and on just a tremendous man. And it's amazing that when he when
he spoke with me, when hediscovered that he had this, uh was
was als. I was like shocked. This guy's just a big teddy bear,
(08:35):
you know, and you said,wow, look at this, How
could this happen? You know whathappened to him? And you know,
we spoke for a while until hereally got sick and he was away for
a while and uh after that,he was on a machine. We tried
to get him on. It waskind of hard when we started the podcast
and it was kind of hard toget him on because of his bringing,
but just a tremendous person and wewant to honor him. Mike, you
(08:58):
have something to say, you know, well, it's certainly the few times
that I spoke with him on ourprogram, it was very just as doctor
Bradley said, he was very concernedwith making scripture available and pertinent everyday life.
And I just you know, I'vegone to now this church I go
(09:20):
to here in Virginia since we movedhere four years ago, and there was
very little in the preachings of ourpriests, at least that deals with everyday
problems, the state of the country, what a good citizen should do according
to the Bible. And I thinkfrom again from my little experience, was
(09:46):
very interested in that kind of thing. Yes, that's you don't just preach
about saving your soul and sending youror getting yourself into heaven, but to
make the role of the citizen,that the citizen Christian, a powerful one,
not in terms of weapons or armsor strength, but in terms of
(10:11):
rhetoric that speaks to the needs ofeveryday people and their problems and their hopes
and dreams, and that kind ofthing. And he was just even over
the airways of the telephone. Hewas a very inspiring man. Yes,
he was just larger than life.And I think what the power that that
(10:33):
brings to what he was trying todo is that he was able to bring
people to the table to have discussions. And it was, like you said,
Colonel Mike, you know, there'sseventy five people there. They're from
all walks of life. They weren'tjust business leaders, they weren't just academics,
they weren't just pastors. They werethose things. But he was really
able to bring together diverse people.And as you said, doctor Mick,
(10:54):
I mean he was very passionate aboutthis idea. He was, and I
think you wanted to listen to himbecause of that, you you know,
and he lingered, and he lovedpeople and he wanted to talk to people.
He wasn't ever in a rush toend a meeting, he wasn't ever
(11:16):
in a rush to get up fromlunch early, and so there was such
a genuineness about who he was,and again I think that made him a
really great spokesperson for this kind ofwhole life theology, which included work of
course that if we were spent alot of time talking about work. And
you're right, doctor Mike, thatI think when you go to church and
(11:39):
you sit in the pews, we'renot hearing about work. And he thought
that was a problem. This iswhere people spend forty sixty seventy hours a
week maybe more. He was abeliever that we should wake up and say
thank God it's Monday instead of sayingthank God it's Friday, you know,
(12:01):
And he thought he thought that wasnot just a cultural problem like work as
a drug. And you know,you look at all the polling and the
statistics, and all these Americans arevery unhappy with their job. And you
know, he said, look,that's because we're doing it wrong. God
created you to be something only youcan be. And it's it's interesting because
(12:22):
I was just asked to give ahigh school graduation commencement speech, which I've
never done before. It was lastweek a small Christian school, Fairfax Christian
School. Might my kids attend thatschool? And I said, sure,
I would love to do this.And so to get inspired, I actually
went to Hugh you know, Iwent to his writings and I was that
(12:43):
that really I wanted to speak tothese high school graduates about the things I
thought Hugh would want me to tellthem, which is, the world is
going to tell you two things.One that you can be anything you want
to be. And I said,that's just a lie. And then you
you can be the best in theworld, also a lie. And these
(13:03):
are very disillusioning lies. So firstof all, you can be anything you
want to be. I mean,it's not like we're going to a restaurant,
right and you you have, youknow, one hundred dollars, so
you can buy anything that's under onehundred dollars. That's not what your life
is about. And so we thought, and we talked a lot at if
we and this is all inspired byHugh that no, you're created in God's
image, in his likeness. Weare a mago day. That gives you
(13:26):
dignity, it gives you purpose,but it also means you're unique. There's
never been another you to walk theplanet. And so your job is to
figure out what that is, andthen your job is to do it with
excellence. That is, you knowthe old Army slogan, be all that
you can be. Oh yes,yes, that's like good theology right according
(13:48):
to Hugh, and I think he'sabsolutely right, it's be all that you
can be, not be anything youthink you can be, you know,
And I gave the example of myspeeches, like everybody's talking about Caitlin Clark
because she's just amazing, right,perhaps the best collegiate basketball player ever.
Time will tell, of course,but I can't beat her. I could
(14:09):
play basketball eighty hours a week andit's never going to happen because that's not
who I am. That's not whatGod created me to be. And I
can't be the best in the world. I'm an economist. There's lots of
economists. I can just only bethe economist God calls me to be.
And I have to always try todiscern that. And I think that is
the message that the new up andcoming generations need to hear. Not be
(14:31):
Caitlin Clark. You can't be that. She can only be Caitlin Clark.
But you have to be the bestyou that you can be, knowing that
that's what God created you to be. And when we change our thinking along
those lines, it's very fulfilling andpowerful. It's like, Okay, I
can't wait for Monday because in theworkplace, at least, Monday is a
place that I can serve other peoplewith my God given gifts. Now,
(14:54):
Hugh didn't want us to only thinkabout work. Right, we do this
in our church, in our marriages, in our families. I'm a daughter,
I'm a mother, I'm a cousin, I'm a niece, you know,
I'm all these things. I'm awife, and so I have to
work in all of those capacities.So, you know, he didn't want
to limit this to just the workplace, but he thought that in churches were
(15:16):
just completely ignoring work. It's like, yeah, God doesn't care if you're
an accountant. That's just a jobso that you can make money, take
care of your family and tithe.And if we limit our thinking of work
to that, it's very depressing andalienating, you know. And one of
the evening meetings we want to upon the top floor there and the higher
floors than native building. It wasamazing. I walked in one night.
(15:39):
I came in a little late.They started up, and I met people
I knew that were at the Pentagon. I met people I knew that were
in Congress, and I'm like,wow, you guys have showing up here
too. It was like I hadno idea and This was across party lines,
by the way. I mean,I've seen Democrats there and Republicans there,
and I said, they really knowhow to round up people, and
(16:00):
people were starving for this kind ofinformation. You know. It's just I
think it doesn't matter how titled orhi powered your position is, how many
letters are after your name, howmuch money you make. We're all just
yearning for meaning, right, We'reyearning for this purpose. And Hugh brought
(16:25):
that to life by saying it's inthe theology, it's in scripture, it's
there for us, and it's beenthere from the beginning. So I you
know, I was raised as aChristian in a Christian home. My parents
are believers. We're raising our childrenthat way now. And I'm an economist
by training. And it wasn't untilI went to If We to Work that
(16:48):
I really was able to put economicsand theology together. I mean it was
uniquely through that experience that I wasable to say, oh, okay,
wait, you know, economists believeso much in abundance, prosperity, longer,
you know, healthier lives. Thisis why we're pro growth. We're
not pro growth just because growth isgood for its own sake. It's because
(17:11):
of what it gives you to livein a pro growth society, right,
Families are taking care of communities,thrive, all these things. And it
wasn't until you know, under Hugheskind of inspiration and mentorship, that I
was truly able to put those thingstogether that this is actually not just about
economics, but it's connected to whatwe learn in Genesis. So we spent
(17:32):
a lot of time at if wetwo theologists and an economist, among other
kind of really important staff that werethere, of course, but you know,
kind of we were developing the content. We thought, okay, we
got to start with Genesis. Genesisis where we learn about who we are,
about God's design of his creation andhis desires for his creation. It's
(17:53):
right there in the first chapter,and I think most Christians have never read
it that way. We've read itas a historical account of creation, which
of course it is that, butit's so much more. We're told about
the Creator. You know. Qcalled it the creation mandate, or it's
also known as the cultural mandate,where God says, be fruitful and multiply.
(18:14):
Well, what does that mean?We know what multiply means. We
know it's important to families and raisedchildldren. But what does be fruitful mean?
And it means a lot of thingsabout the marketplace, about work,
about vocation, and so that wasvery powerful for me personally and professionally to
walk that journey. It really openedmy eyes in a new way. Doctor
(18:34):
Mike, if you ever met himin person, you would have been very,
very impressed. I bet I wasimpressed when I heard him on the
phone. And I think the ideais idea that be the best what you
can be at what you can do, and not the best thing in the
world at anything. You know,we we we really abuse that idea.
I think of you can be whateveryou want. You know, how many
(19:00):
kids have we seen get to themajor leagues in baseball and they're going to
be, all of a sudden thenext Joe DiMaggio or the next Mickey Mantle
or the next Sandy Kofax, Andof course they last two or three seasons
and that's it. They never becomethe best, and they end up drunk
or they end up you know,working with it because they have little education,
(19:22):
and it's it's there's many many examplesof that. I think the whole
for example, the whole college basketballworld yields an enormous number of kids who
thought they were going to be aprofessional player and end up being addicts or
unemployed or drunks or whatever at theend of the day because they could make
(19:45):
their dream because the game was unrealistic. Right, it's you know, you've
got to give a person a chanceto make mistakes and to understand not only
what he can do, about whathis limits are. Absolutely, and that
failure is so important for our growthand learning. Right there's I mean,
(20:07):
I'm raising two children right now,and so it's it's the culture is just
working against what we're really supposed tobe doing. And I and I think
your point is so valid. It'sI think one part, doctor Mike,
of your point that's really important isthat because we prize perfectionism, you got
to be the best. I mean, I have two kids that are in
sports, and so when I lookat youth sports in Northern Virginia, it's
(20:30):
kind of the insanity starts at avery early age. And my husband's like,
you guys kill us in lacrosse allthe time, by the way,
so good job with that. Butyou know, my daughter's ten, she
plays lacrosse, and you know,she's ten, so I'm not really worried
(20:51):
about if she's going to play incollege. Most people don't. It's okay,
she can. You know, myhusband's always saying, is she having
fun, she being active, shelearned learning, she learning how to play
with others and get coached. Theseare what matter. But the culture is
like, okay, attend you knowwhat college, you're going to play lacrosse.
I mean, that's an insane kindof mentality. And then these kids
(21:14):
get burnt out in high school insome cases and they quit. And so
the dream, You're right, thedream is unrealistic. The dream is so
singular that it focuses on like whatI'm good right now, which might not
be the whole breadth of my skillsand who I am. And so I
think we disillusion young adults. Andthen the young adults have this perception that,
(21:37):
you know, by twenty two,they need to have like made it
in life, which is crazy andso just disillusioning for them. But I
mean, what is going on inthe workplace as well, because their expectations
are unrealistic about how fast they're goingto develop and get raises, and they're
just not learning how to fail.Failure is you know, you need to
(22:00):
fail a test. You're going tolose games, You're going to fail in
your friendships and relationships, and thoseare opportunities for us to grow and to
learn and to become better. Butperfectionism is the enemy. And so I
think you know, the broad thetheological narrative that Hugh was really trying to
bring to the table. It takesoff the table this idea that you have
(22:23):
to be the best in the worldand you have to know that early and
you could be anything you desire tobe, and and shifts it to say,
I mean, Hugh used to alwayssay with pride. He would do
a lot of public speaking because hewas an incredible speaker, very just so
charismatic, wasn't he just really bythe way too, he was. He
(22:48):
was just a very humble man.Humble but like six three or six four,
right, a big teddy bear andjust loved people. And he would
go give these talks and he wouldtalk about this and say, look,
when you reorient your attitude about whoyou are, and work is just paid.
Work is just one aspect of whoyou are. And if God calls
you to do something then you doit with excellence, and in that you're
(23:11):
able to glorify him by living outyour purpose and serving others. And then
he would say, the janitor hasas much dignity and importance as the CEO.
He would say that to CEOs.He would say that to people who
were janitors, and he had peoplecome up to him after his talks weeping
(23:32):
because nobody had ever told them thatthat being a janitor is terrible. Working
for minimum wage is terrible. Societylooks down on you, and your whole
goal is to get out of thereas fast as possible. And of course
some people start as janitors and don'tend as janitors, but some people remain
janitors for forty years and they canhave fulfillment in that if that's what God
wants you to do right now,right And so we would tie that idea
(23:55):
to this is why we need aproductive, free market economy, because only
in that type of economy can peopleunleash their human creativity. And the janitor
has income mobility, and the janitorcan take care of his family. But
again, going back to Northern Virginia, a place that I'm from, so
you know, hopefully I'm not partof the problem. But the culture here
is kind of very toxic along theseideas. I can't imagine hearing seeing,
(24:18):
you know, kind of people thatlive in Northern Virginia brag about their high
school graduate going to electric you know, being an electrician and getting a fact.
You know, what I noticed aboutnorthern Virginia and because I moved I
moved there probably about what forty twoyears forty three years ago from New York
City, and what I noticed atthat time it was pretty much, you
(24:41):
know, it was country issue wasstill fair facts or fair facts or whatever,
but it was it was small,it was smaller government. But when
you go there today, these kidsare so privileged in northern of it.
They have no idea what the restof the country is unless they've been there.
They have no idea what other otherkids do in other parts of the
(25:03):
country, the CLA, New York, whatever. But it's a very privileged
group in Northern Virginia. And Iknow, probably I think about what you're
dealing with with young students, butI would say this for parents to make
them understand what happens with failure.If you read Henry Ford, Henry Ford
was a major failure. Many timesbefore he was a success. And there's
(25:25):
other stories like that. You know, Henry Ford didn't overnight become Ford Motor
Company, which became the biggest atthe time. You know. And when
I look at Ford and I lookat companies like Volvo and stuff like that,
you say, these guys are legends. They've been out there for years.
But you look at their stock andyou say, like, how come
they're only like this much money?It's because of mismanagement and so on.
(25:47):
But Henry Ford is a great bookto read. It's a great read for
children to read to know that failureis okay because you get success through having
a couple of failures. If that'swhat they're looking for, you know,
absolutely, And I think those arethe you know, the Hugh used to
joke about the old adage that likethe C students run the world, not
(26:07):
the straight A students, And youknow, there's something to be said about
that, because I think if you'restruggling and you have to work hard for
your grades, even if you can'tmake the A or the B all the
time, you know what it lookslike to to really have grit. I've
come to just love this word,and it's a. It's it's a value
I want to teach my own children, but my students as well. Don't
(26:30):
give up at the first side offailure. You use that to make you
better. And I also think thatwhat comes along with that attitude is we
should seek out critical feedback. Weshould look for it. We should not
just surround ourselves with people who aregoing to always tell us we're doing a
great job. But you know thatthat critical feedback can make us better if
(26:51):
we let it. And so that'sthe Henry Ford's and the Walt Disney's and
these people who failed, failed,failed, failed. If they had given
up at the first failure, whatwould the world look like today? I
was a very differend. You wehave to teach these kids not to give
up so quickly. Well, yeah, I was just going to say that.
My dad always said that pain.Pain is one of the greatest teachers
(27:11):
in life, whether it's a disappointmentfor not you know, making a team,
if it's a d when you expectit to be, or if if
you're if you don't feel well andyou still get up and go to work
because you've got to work for yourfamily. You know, that's the kind
(27:32):
of thing that that it teaches youhow really tough in a good sense,
that human beings can be in pursuingtheir their livelihoods by executing their responsibilities.
And I if that more of thatcame from the pulpit, yes it would,
it would be a great thing forall of America. I could not
(27:55):
agree more. I could not agreemore. I remember being in graduate school
to George Mason when I was startedmy first year. Walter Williams was our
department chair, so you can imaginewhat that was like. It was just
an amazing, amazing place. ButWalter pulled no punches, you know,
I mean he would give you thatfeedback. I mean, he was just
a remarkable person. But I rememberbeing in a class, if you can
(28:18):
imagine, called mathematical economics, firstyear PhD class. I mean, it's
all math seven to ten pm Tuesdaynights. Horrible, Okay, horrible.
I'm just trying to survive. AndI just remember being in that class and
thinking, I am definitely the dumbestperson in this room. The professor's talking
about math. I'm not even tracking. And it was one of those moments
(28:38):
where like the tears kind of youcould feel him coming up through your throat,
you know, and I thought,I'm gonna quit. I cannot do
this. There's no way I'm gonnamake it. And I'm so glad I
didn't quit. I just have tosay, I have to work harder.
Other people here are way smarter thanme, and that's okay. I can
learn from them, but that's that'snot easy. It wasn't easy for me
(29:00):
to do that. But I thinklooking back now, that was good for
me. That was, you know, that developed some fortitude that I need
to have in my life and thatwe all need to have in our life.
So we all have those moments whereit's like I can't do this,
but maybe I need anything going.And Mason was very fortunate to have Walter
Williams, who was really one ofthe best professors out, one of the
(29:22):
smartest guys I've heard, you know. He used to write for The Times,
you know, for the while,and I was like, wow,
George Mason got Walter Williams and hecould have probably been in any school in
the country. You agree with that. I agree with that, I mean,
I absolutely agree with that. Anelite economist who not only was just
prolific writer, but you know,published academic articles in top journals, books
(29:47):
and newspaper op eds and articles.He was just just prolific in all of
what he did, and he putup with zero nonsense. And so he
was a force to be wrecked andwith by people who disagreed with him.
And we need more people like that. Again, Walter Williams is somebody who
in some ways used humor to dosome of that. But he was winsome,
(30:08):
he was witty, but he wasno nonsense, and I think that
allowed him not to be knocked downbecause his narrative was countercultural for sure,
right, And so yeah, andso that you have to be tough,
you have to be really tough.Yeah, well, let's wrap it up.
I mean, this has been agreat conversation. I'm glad you spent
(30:30):
some time with us to speak aboutyou. And uh, you know,
I wanted to do this for awhile. You know, I missed.
I missed the memorial by one dayand I got noticed. I was like,
oh wow, I was there yesterday. If I were have looked,
I could have got in there.But oh god. Yeah, he's a
great loss and we'll always remember him. And the website's still available. I
(30:52):
checked recently. You can still dosome many articles on there, so we'll
put that in the footnotes. AndDoc Dan Bradley, we want to thank
you for coming on again to thetwo mits, and and uh speaking about
a good friend that we lost thisyear. Yes, well i'm it's I'm
glad we could honor him. Thankyou for having me all right, Thank
you for yest, Thank you verymuch, Thank you by ye
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