April 27, 2025 • 51 mins
Max talks about the finer details of Acting with Ivana Chubbuck, Acting Coach and Author of the book ‘The Power of the Actor’. Ivana has worked with many successful Actors over her 25 year career including Halle Berry, Charlize Theron, Brad Pitt, Al Pacino and so many more.
Forming her technique after studying behavioral science, psychology and cultural anthropology.
How to find the right technique when you’re starting as an Actor
How to get the audience invested in your performance
Ivana knows what books a job having worked in Casting
How Ivana worked with Pamela Anderson on the LAST SHOWGIRL
How Christopher Walken prepares and works to constantly refine and improve a performance
Why do Directors like working with Actors who use the Chubbuck technique
Why any technique is no schortcut – you have to keep working hard and the importance of ‘raising the stakes’
The importance of Active listening
What advice at the end of Ivanas book resonates the most with Max
The book is updated to include advice on Self Tapes. Listen to Ivanas advice for Max when he struggles with self taping and what stands out to a Casting Director on a self tape
Why Directors and Writers sit in on Ivanas workshops
How Ivanas childhood helped inform her approach to developing her Acting technique
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Max (00:00):
I have the pleasure of talking to acting coach and
author of the book 'The Power ofthe Actor', Ivana Chubbuck.
Ivana is the founder anddirector of the Ivana Chubbuck
Studio and creator of theChubbuck Technique that many
actors lean on, including HalleBerry, Charlize Theron, Brad
Pitt, Jake Gyllenhaal and somany more over her 35-year
career.
So join us today while we delveinto the acting world according
(00:22):
to Ivana, right here on TwoUnemployed Actors.
.
Ivana (00:42):
I just got to say you got to send me the song so I can
sing this all the time in myclasses.
Max (00:49):
Because the joke, of course , is, as an emerging actor, you
know, sometimes the gap betweenthe projects are longer than the
actual projects themselves.
You know, and I guess that'sthe challenge staying work fit
in between.
Ivana (01:00):
Can I change the lyrics to 'two employed actors'?
I like to see the positivehere.
Max (01:11):
I love it.
So I think a nice way to delveinto your 12-step acting
technique, which forms thefoundation of your book.
I mean there are a number ofacting techniques out there,
what advice do you have foractors who are really sort of
struggling to find what worksfor them, and how would you
introduce your technique tothose actors?
Ivana (01:34):
I think people take too much emphasis on making honest
and truthful, because justhonest and truthful by itself is
a couple of things, a little onthe boring side, and two it's
it's a little self-involved.
And so the idea is we want tofind the things that will allow
(01:57):
us to propel us, to fuel us,into doing acts of daring
emotional daring that allows usto try to overcome and win,
whatever our objective is in thematerial.
And we want to watch emotionalheroes.
We want to watch people whotake the things that we all go
(02:18):
through whether you've hadsevere realities like I've had
with a very violent emotionallyand physical mother growing up,
and then a lot of relationshipsthat also were not so good
either, I must say myself and Ithink and then just life
(02:40):
happening and all these thingsthat we usually self-destruct
with and we usually get shamedfrom and we usually become
defeated by, and so I I feellike what we have to do is, in
order to get a job, you have toinvest the people that are
watching, whether the the peoplethat are watching is a casting
(03:01):
director or director or produceror an actual audience.
It's like you have to investthem if they're not invested,
just like life.
If you're not invested inhaving a relationship with that
other person, they're not goingto want you on their set or on
their stage.
They're going to want to bewith people that they feel they
have a relationship with.
(03:22):
So so when actors get into thisplace where they say, well,
just got to keep it honest andreal, kind of create this honest
and real bubble, what happens?
You're kind of keeping peopleout and keeping people from
coming in and you're just havingan emotional moment for
yourself and it becomes kind ofvery self-centered and and and
also when people do that, it'shard to be around them.
(03:46):
It's a little kind ofoff-putting.
Just in real life, say, a reallife person is.
We all have people like that inour lives.
They always have honest andreal and truthful pain and they
talk about it non-stop, and sowhat we want to do is stay away
from those people.
You could love them a lot, butwe don't.
We have issues with just it'sso depressing to be around
(04:07):
people that are so real andtruthfully exploring their pain.
But people we want to be aroundare people that want to do
something about it, people whosay I think I'm going to be
proactive, yes, things are bad.
(04:27):
Yes, I've hit bottom, but whatdo I do?
How do I find a way to changethat?
How do I find a way to solvethat?
Have some resolution, find somekind of learning.
Some way I can learn from thissituation that happened.
And how could I ultimately findcatharsis?
(04:48):
And so, when being proactive,which is the mark of a dynamic
person, most people like to sitin their pain.
That's just the reality.
But what makes somebody popularand charismatic are the people
who say, yes, this is happening,whatever it is.
Or people are being saying thatI can't accomplish this or that
, or I got people negating mytalent or your abilities, or
(05:13):
you're too old, or you're toofat, or you're too skinny, or
whatever it is.
I tell you can't make it isthat I'm going to win in spite
of you and because of you, inspite of and because of you,
which means that I'm on ajourney, that you're creating
your audience again, whatever itis, whether it's people who can
(05:35):
hire you or people who are anaudience to want to support you,
like a rooting section, like insports.
And so I always like to usescience.
Science is a very interestingthing because, basically, we're
human animals like a rootingsection, like in sports, and so
I always like to use science.
Science is very interestingthing because basically we're
human animals and there's justall science of why we do the
things we do.
Um, so I've studied, uh,behavioral science, psychology,
(05:56):
the science of psychology andcultural anthropology, the the
history of culture, which meansthat we can play things and
understand why, why people havethe culture that they had.
When we want to play somethingfrom a period piece or from a
particular country that we'renot from, that allows us to
(06:17):
really understand the characterprofoundly, and then we're
watching them try to overcomesomething that's in their way,
whether it's emotionally orphysically or both, to overcome.
So the science lesson here isthat there's proof from
(06:37):
archaeologists that there wassport being played by early man
before he became upright.
Neanderthal man was playingsport and games of contest and
so.
But that's millions of yearsold.
Theater is 2,000 years old,ancient Greeks, okay, so let's
(06:57):
do some math here.
Okay, we have millions of yearsago, coming from that place, of
understanding the win-losesituation, trying to win, of
understanding the win-losesituation, trying to win
something, and the win-losereality, or people who want to
feel things.
We want to engage people like arabid sports fan.
You do that, people will feellike they have to have you in
(07:22):
their cast.
It really is as simple as that.
It's like going on a date.
You go on a date and thatperson goes on and on about
their exes and how awful theywere.
Do you want to go on a seconddate with that person?
I call that the callback.
You're not going to get acallback because you're
(07:43):
depressing them.
Max (07:46):
I love that it's a more constructive mindset.
It really is, and I thinkthat's great, because I know I
read that Pamela Anderson saysyou helped her, and I love this
quote 'turn messy life intointeresting work'.
And I think it seems to be acommon theme that successful
actors say you know theirability to tap into any pain in
(08:06):
their life and learn.
Ivana (08:07):
I'm going to do something with it as opposed to sitting
(08:29):
in it and so I think I thinkpeople all know the reason why I
feel like that my technique has, has helped so many people book
really great jobs.
I mean, it's in the bookings,right, you gotta book, yeah
that's it because you can't.
You know what I say.
Max (08:48):
You can't take a call back to the bank absolutely, and you
look at your bank account assuccess, especially as an
emerging actor, you know.
So yeah, absolutely 100absolutely.
Ivana (08:57):
And the thing is, but if you go in thinking, okay, yes, I
feel like I've been rejected abunch, but you need to, you need
to take that information, say,the next one is mine and I'm
going to figure out how to dothat, how do you do that?
You got to study more.
You got to figure out, like,what is missing in your work,
that all those no's happenedbecause I used to be in casting.
(09:21):
I was married to a producer,director, who's won so many
awards in his movies and TV, andit's like I've sat in so many
casting sessions.
I know what books, and whatbooks is people that aren't
trying to do what they think ison the page.
I call it paper pleasing.
So if you do it, oh, they wantto see this, this and that
(09:41):
that's not what they want to see.
They want to see this, this andthat that's not what they want
to see.
They want to see yourspecialness, which means all
your flaws, embrace them, allyour neuroses, embrace them,
bring them to to go after tryingto overcome and win.
Whatever the objective is inthe script and and and and.
Therefore it becomes a veryspecific, mannered, quirky,
(10:06):
interesting role that nobodyelse is bringing to the table,
but you have to do the work andall these people who think that
they're just talented so they'regoing to show up.
I did kind of a mush of work.
I kind of know what my overallobjective is and I'm going to go
in with that.
It's just they have people whowill do the work and they will
(10:27):
get the job and they will getthe awards.
You know, talking about Pamela,we worked through the last
showgirl three times, wentthrough every beat, every
thought.
There are many moments whereshe was not speaking, but we
went through those scenes asdeeply and as specifically as we
did the scenes that haddialogue.
(10:49):
And she wanted to do it threetimes because we always added
layers and dimension.
And layers and dimension andadding because I don't work from
like method is about going backin time what's going on in your
life right now?
Because you don't know how it'sgoing to end up.
So you're in the raw, you'regritty and raw and you're using
the stuff that you're trying tofigure out in today's world.
(11:09):
It might be relatable tosomething that happened to you
early on in your life, butthat's called psychology.
But that's who we are today isaccumulation of all the things
that have happened.
So, whatever's going on in yourlife right now that you're
(11:32):
trying to solve, you use it sosay something changes.
You're middle of a shoot,you're on episode three and
you've successfully been usingsomething that is um been
working for you, but somethingnew has happened.
Someone just died, or or um, oryou, or you just got um a bad
health, and you can't pretendthat's not the most important
thing that's rolling around yourhead.
So I teach you how to usewhat's most current you know,
(11:55):
because it makes you be thatperson who says what's going to
happen next.
Yeah, I love that.
Max (12:00):
I love that and I think even in situations like, say,
you know you're playing a rolein the theatre and you might
have certain you know objectsthat you're using to help at a
moment, and what worked for youover the last 30 performances
may not be working for you nowand you've got to switch it up
and be a bit flexible and also,yeah, of course, fuelled by what
(12:22):
and informed by what'shappening to you and how you're
feeling, you know, in your lifeat that time.
Ivana (12:29):
Yeah, because the most important thing is so people
won't know what's going tohappen next.
Because why you don't knowwhat's going to happen next?
Because when actors pre-planstuff, we know.
I know when somebody'spre-planned stuff, because I
know exactly what they're goingto do next.
So you know what I do.
I turn the channel.
You know what I do.
I leave the theater because thething is, I don't need to
(12:53):
predict my time.
I have so many platforms tochoose from so why not pick?
yours, when I know what you'regoing to do.
I already know what you'regoing to do, so no surprises.
So you have to put yourself ina place where, with all the work
you got to build a very solidhouse before you can put the
right paint and decorations inthere that you can keep changing
(13:17):
and evolving and changing andevolving your performance.
But you got to put, keepputting in things that are going
to make you.
It's a work in progress.
Always, um, I'm going to get agreat, we're going to make you.
It's a work in progress.
Always, I'm going to give you agreat.
Do you want to hear a greatChristopher Walken story?
Of course, of course you do,because he's great, he's
wonderful, right, please.
And it has a longevity ofcareer, which is what we all
(13:37):
seek, right, the longevity, andnot just that one part.
Is that one part?
And then that's over.
You want longevity, a career.
So my husband directed him in amovie and, uh, he would.
Uh, who do?
Had so much writing on his page, the way I teach it in the book
how to write on the page.
And so that's right there foryou.
(13:58):
And between and he'd sit in theset to create place, he'd put
up his fourth wall.
He'd sit in the set to createplace.
He'd put up his fourth wall,he'd sit in the stuff, create,
you know, endow the place.
I mean, he did all the work andthen, in between every setup,
he'd run back to his trailer andchange the work that wasn't
working off the work that wasworking.
So it was constantly a work inprogress Every setup, every
(14:22):
setup, changing it and, uh andand, reconfiguring, and then the
next scene, the same thing.
He just did the work.
And this it's a lot of work andit's not for the faint of heart
yeah, yeah, that's right andthere's.
Max (14:36):
you know there's no shortcuts like anything.
The more you you know acting'sa lot about the doing as well.
I know there's a lot of scriptanalysis in in a technique and I
think the more you you practicethat, though on your feet, the
easier it can be in thosesituations where something's not
working, like in that exampleor I don't know.
For me and as an emerging actor, you know, up and coming, you
(14:57):
don't have the opportunity ofsitting with a role for a year
and rehearsing for it and allthat.
You might get the script theday before, you know, for your
50-worder and you rock up thenext day.
And I had a situation where itwas just that or it was a lead,
but anyway and there was a sceneand it was a busy scene, lots
of extras, lots going on, butessentially a two-hander.
And the director came acrossafter the first take and said
(15:21):
you know what?
It's just not, it's not working, working, um, what do you think
your character should say inthis situation?
Max, like, have a think aboutthat and we'll get going.
We don't have the budget luxuryof I'll take 20 minutes and
I'll get back to you, like,let's go, um, and I think,
knowing I could, I could relaxin a way, because I know my
(15:42):
character's seen objective Iknow, know I can trust that it
fits with the overall objective.
I know that when I'm in thatspace what I say is going to fit
, what my character says isgoing to fit.
But conversely I saw the horroron the other actor's face.
She's looking at me going butthat's not what.
(16:04):
So we have to make up what wehave to say, but like how do we
know?
But we've got to do the same.
We're going to say the samething for the next closeups and
I'm like we're just going tohave a conversation, it'll be
fine.
You know, meanwhile it's soundspeed action.
You know we don't have time andyou can trust the process to
the point where if something'snot working, you can switch it,
(16:25):
you can switch gears.
Or if someone comes across andsays, hey, let's just turn
everything upside down and go,you can have that confidence to
trust the process and open upand be in that moment.
Ivana (16:34):
That's the whole thing about why directors love working
with my people, why I have somany directors and
writer-producers that I workwith.
I get 40% of the people I workwith are directors and writers
and that I work with I get 40%of the people I work with are
directors and writers.
And the thing is they love thisway of working because it can
change an actor so fast, becausewe have so much work being done
(16:56):
and so much substantiation toit from the point of view of the
characters on the page, to yourpersonalization.
Max (17:04):
So all that, the process of doing this, so you're, you're
good to go, you can say, okay,could you change this so that
you're being more sympathetic orempathetic, and it's like yep
because I think, I think, Ithink um or change the scene
objective yeah, it's just likeyou'll just translate what they
(17:24):
want into um actor speak yeah,yeah, because I think
practically the budgets aregetting smaller, right, and and
we don't always have the luxuryluxury of doing, you know,
several takes.
I've worked on sets where youknow budget's so tight even the
series regulars who've beenthere for years, you know, could
say can I try that again?
(17:45):
No, moving on, moving on,moving on.
You're lucky to get two takesand it's hard enough as it is
when you've got a guestie or a50-word role, to turn up on a
set that's been moving like afreight train for decades, you
know, and you've just got tocatch up and go.
It's already hard to be able topivot and things change and
we're moving very fast.
(18:05):
It just so helps to jump in andenjoy the process and still
enjoy the work, even thoughthere's that extra layer of
pressure.
Ivana (18:13):
Well, when I worked Charlize Theron on Devils
Advocate I was there with herWarner Brothers paid for me to
come out, not because she wantedme to come out, so she asked if
they would pay for it becauseshe was my girl and we trusted
each other.
And so, um, the uh, Al Pacino,um, he wanted to take one scene.
(18:34):
I'm just, this is kind of workethic.
You have to have one scene,three pages.
You spent they spent three daysbreaking it down, stopping and
started doing it, tryingdifferent things.
It's like that's what makespeople great.
She is one of the hardestworkers I've ever worked with
and all my all the people I'vecreated and I can't say I prayed
together as a team we'vecreated their startup.
(18:56):
Because I don't take that kindof credit, because it's their
work ethic, they're takingchances.
When I say, well, you want totry this, they They'll go.
Yeah, I remember with JakeGyllenhaal it was like I
remember the first time we met Isaid something.
I just I was like I was like alittle testing him.
Just I gave him somethingreally weird to to try and he
(19:18):
said okay, and he did it and itwas actually worked really well
and I said let's just stay withthat.
We're going to break down thescript of that.
But he was willing to takechances and all the greats.
Al Pacino once said I just makea lot of choices and I hope
they work.
Max (19:38):
I love that.
I love that, and you're rightabout the work ethic.
You're going to get more out ofit the more you put in.
There's no shortcuts.
Like I said and I think I lovethis quote from Shelley's the
stakes have to be high, so itwas a really interesting place
for me to stand on my feet andfall on my face many times.
I love that quote and it raisesan interesting point too.
Once an actor is familiar witha process, say that your
(20:01):
technique.
How important is it to keep,you know, raising the stakes,
your technique.
Ivana (20:05):
How important is it to keep, you know, raising the
stakes?
It's extremely importantbecause it's it's that's what
creates drama.
So if we, if we, if we have tosay objectives, to get to the
other side of a road, so it's asunny day, no traffic, and I
just have to get to the otherside whenever I want to, or we
(20:27):
have.
It's the middle of the night,it's raining down like that
sleet kind of icy rain.
It's not snow yet, but it's iceand it's making it very, very
slippery.
There's huge trucks goingreally fast and it's the middle
of the night and across thestreet your sister's going to
die if you don't get there in 10seconds.
So what do you want to watch?
You know, I mean, it's kind ofa no-brainer to me I want to
watch the one that's calledMount Everest, not a sunny day.
(20:51):
So when you raise the stakes,the more you raise them, the
more we're going to be watchingyou with anticipation.
Isn't that great we want?
We don't want people to go oh,people from places that don't
care about acting technique oranything like that.
They don't talk to each otherand say, hey, irving, that
(21:11):
acting's real good.
Look how that person can cry oncue and then say, yeah, she's
really good, because that personcan just, like they pick up
their cues like they're masters.
They don't talk like that.
They don't talk about technique.
They don't care about technique.
They don't talk about technique.
They don't care about technique.
They care if you entertain them, they care if you involve them,
they care if you have a messagethat they believe in and they
(21:35):
want to be supported and notfeel like they're all alone in
that message.
If it's a message, movie, movie, you know.
So it's like we're there tohelp our public be able to feel
like they're not alone in theirstories, that we are there
telling their stories on thescreen or on stage, for them to
(21:56):
be able to feel like you're notalone in this.
And I'm trying to solve it.
Maybe so can you.
And it gives people, youraudiences, hope.
Our job, job, our job, is togive people hope through our
choices.
Now we could make choices thatsay, oh, this is not going to
work.
I mean like as the, as acharacter, it's not going to
work and I'm going to die.
(22:16):
Or the person.
I'm not going to die and I knowI've just really heard because
I'm in a pit full of snakes andthey're all super poisonous, but
I'm going to find a way to digmyself out Even if you do die.
The point is that that journeybefore you die makes us go.
We don't want you to die andthe person who gives up.
(22:37):
we go like, yeah, the personwill probably die, they don't
really care that much.
Max (22:40):
I love that, I think, because I know at the end of the
book, where you've, where youprovide some advice for actors,
there's a couple of pieces ofadvice that that really
resonated with me, and one ofthem is the take risks, and I
think that feeds into that whole.
You know, let's raise thestakes, let's keep, as an actor,
even in the process, keep,don't be afraid to to take risks
(23:00):
, because I know my fear as anactor is that I'll get
comfortable and it happens.
I feel like I'm a bitcomfortable, I've got my process
, everything sort of falls intoplace, step one to step two, and
I'm like I have to pull myselfout and maybe it's time for
another workshop.
Um, maybe it's time to to haveanother look at the process.
Um, because that's my fear,that I'll get comfortable at
(23:21):
some stage and and I don't wantto make these choices from a
from that sort of perspective-and also the new book I.
Ivana (23:30):
It's all upgraded to, like you know, self tapes and
and the things I know thatpeople want to see.
Remember it's 20 years sincethe last one and so there's a
lot of new information.
If I know, it's going to helpyou book a job, so there's a
whole new section.
It's totally different.
I mean, still tell it us, takethe risk, because I don't think
you got to make bold choices.
Yeah it's just what you got todo, because it's like vanilla
(23:52):
choices is vanilla Beiges color,but it's beige, you know.
So we want, we want to havelike, we want to take chances
and and be able to make peoplejust kind of come alive off of
what you're doing and also itinvigorates you, the actor.
I want to, I, I, what I reallylike to do is give people so
(24:12):
many people have been doing thisfor a long time they lose their
joy of acting because itbecomes so political or becomes
so like, um, you know, put thecamera there and you got to do
this and that and what you wantto do is be able to enjoy
yourself and your joy will beinfectious.
You know people will go.
(24:33):
This actor's choice is soenjoying the exploration.
You can feel it in the work andthe choices that they make that
we get excited as part of yourjourney because we get involved
and invested.
And so I'm glad that you say weget too comfortable, and I'm
not sure comfortable is theright word, because I don't mind
being comfortable but makingsafe choices.
Max (24:55):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.
And I think the other pointwhere and it's just something I
keep checking just to make sureI'm making myself uncomfortable
every now and then on purpose Iprobably could have chosen that
word better too, but you knowwhat I mean.
And I think the other thing Istruggle with at the moment,
particularly around when itcomes to enjoyment, is the
self-tape.
It's something that we justhave to accept now it's part of
(25:17):
the industry.
I mean, australia is a lotsmaller, but there's a heavy
reliance now on self-tapes and Imiss that being in the room and
you're getting that feedbackstraight away, and so for me
it's.
It's the world of self-tapes,where you're becoming a director
and everything.
I think what, what advice haveyou got for actors who really
have to push themselves a littlebit extra to get what they want
(25:39):
out of a self-tape environment?
Ivana (25:42):
well, you just have to think in terms of, um, whoever
you're reading with yeah, it's ascene you're doing and like,
really put it out there.
Um, there's, and the new bookis a full-on chemistry exercise
was an old book that was kind ofdealt with in a very short,
quick way.
Now it's got its own chaptercreating chemistry with the
(26:04):
person that you're reading with.
Even though we never see thatface, we'll feel the energy of
chemistry and we automaticallygo.
He's charismatic from thatchemistry.
Um, bringing in the need interms of the substitution to the
person that you're reading with.
Um, having the inner monologuearound the person for the
substitution using with theperson that you're reading with,
(26:26):
even though we never see thatperson.
It's just a voice we barelyhear.
If you do to think of it as aregular scene, like you would
when you went to an audition, isthey're picking up on the
energy of what they want toultimately see on screen you.
So if you think of it as a, asan actual performing, right now
(26:48):
is not an audition and it'sanother opportunity to just like
, play my craft, then people getthat.
That, that with that humanbeing that's in actually in
front of you for them to watchyou go.
(27:09):
This person is really enjoyingthis process and so I just saw
tape.
Um, yesterday, uh, the persongot, he showed me the tape.
We worked on the audition andthen he, he showed me the tape
and then he got a call, uh, oran email yesterday saying he
booked a job.
It's a lead, it's a two-hander,it's a lead and really great
(27:31):
script and it's just.
But if you look at what we didand how we broke it down, was to
find, even though he plays akiller, it's the joy that he
doesn't see it as killing people, as hurting them because he
hates them.
He sees him killing, killingthem as because I always try to
find the spin, the positives ofa negative is that he's taking
(27:52):
people who are unhappy andpulling him out of their misery.
For him it's euthanasia, so itwould seem to be like a.
It was just a very interestingread because of that, and so
it's coming up with likeinteresting ways to make it be a
more positive journey to thingsthat we automatically judge as
being bad people I love that Ithink they're being bad yeah, no
(28:15):
, and exactly.
Max (28:16):
I love that.
I think, and I think also it'sa great point to to not get
caught up in the process of ohmy god, I've got to put a
self-tape down.
It's, it's.
No, I've got to get into thisscene like I normally would and
I'm simply filming the scene.
It's less about I've got to getthis self-tape down and getting
into that mindset.
Sometimes, when you like tooveranalyze or you know, you can
(28:37):
end up in a situation whereyou're doing you know you've got
five hours of editing to getone scene down to try and book
the job.
Ivana (28:51):
Make choices based on like.
Again, I keep bringing up thebook, but there's a whole
chapter on what's called energykills and being killed, taking
the victim out of being a victimand how you get hurt or killed
and making it your choice.
So that doesn't seem like it'ssomething that, because we don't
(29:13):
want to watch a victim'sjourney, so that doesn't seem
like it's something that,because we don't want to watch a
victim's journey, we wantsomeone who's might be
victimized by the circumstances,but they're going to find a way
to take the victim out of beinga victim.
And so how do we do that?
There's ways to spin why youneed to be killed and energy
(29:37):
wise or why you need to kill,but killing out that bad energy
that needs to get killed.
So it's a.
There's a chapter called energykills, um and uh, and it's just
like everything is based ontrying to take judgment out of
the equation, because if youjudge your character, it's going
to get judged, and nobody likesa judger.
Think about this Anytime youjudge and you watch two people
one person's judging the otherDo we judge alongside the judger
(30:01):
?
No, we hate the judger forjudging that person.
We automatically take the sideof the person that person's
judging.
So when you judge a character,you're doing the same thing.
You're taking something thatsomebody lovingly wrote,
something that someone's goingto lovingly direct, and you're
saying, well, this person's abad person.
(30:22):
Well, that's not going tocreate them.
The wonderful thing about themovie that's called Natural Born
Killers.
They were having fun, they werecreating relationship out of it
, but they weren't killingpeople.
Max (30:40):
It was just their version of what makes a happy
relationship is different toours.
But yeah, exactly.
Ivana (30:45):
Yeah, exactly.
But just because Raging Bullbeats her up all the time and
they have great sex doesn't meanthat she doesn't like it that
way.
I mean she promotes it.
That's why she won an Oscar.
That's why he won an Oscar.
Because the thing is, they bothmade it that.
That's just how they doforeplay.
They like the violent part.
It helps them with their sexpart.
(31:06):
It makes great sex for someonewho's a world champion fighter
and the wife of a person whowould be attracted to someone
who likes to do physical damageto people in the ring.
So it just made a match-up,made it happen, right, and so
people.
But you can judge.
Oh, she's being abused.
It's like well, some peoplelike to be abused because it's
(31:30):
what makes whatever theirrelationship work, because it's
what they both like Withoutjudgment.
You constantly have to take thejudgment out of things because
once you put the judgment in,you just lost the role
Guaranteed 100%.
Max (31:48):
You're heading back into safe territory.
Ivana (31:51):
It's not safe territory.
It's territory that's makingpeople say why would I want to
watch this movie?
Because it's by ugly people.
It's territory that's makingpeople say why would I want to
watch this movie?
Because it's by ugly peopleyeah, yeah, got it.
Max (32:00):
I think the one thing, that another thing that resonates
with me from your work and yourbook is the importance of active
listening, because you can seethose moments when an actor is
simply waiting for the otheractor to stop talking so they
can say their lines.
I think it's that's somethingthat I had to work on a lot.
At the start.
(32:20):
Um went through a workshop inaustralia with uh in the in your
technique, with anthony brandonwong, who was fantastic at
creating this great space for usto really get into it and push
out of your comfort zone,because you know, I'm coming
back to acting after 20 years ofcorporate life, 20 years of
hiding your emotions and all therest of it, and trying to get
(32:41):
into this space where I canreally practice under pressure.
Your technique and activelistening was a part that I was
struggling with and it scared mebecause, yeah, you can
absolutely see those momentswhen an actor is just waiting to
get their line out.
Ivana (33:02):
You lost the job there again.
Because when people tell methey show me their tapes the
directors or the producers thatI work with and they'll show me
the tapes of the finaliststhey're interested in and they
always point out look at whatthat person's doing, look at the
behavior or look at the way theperson's listening.
That's why they oftentimes giveyou these big monologues, not
for you but for the othercharacter.
(33:23):
They want to see how you listen, because rarely does anybody
ever say I love the way thatperson said a line.
So an active listening becauseyou can listen, but it doesn't.
It's a little passive, but Icall it active listening because
the process of that, theformula in that, is first you
take in the information fromyour inner work, the stuff that
(33:45):
you've created as inner work, sowhat you're really hearing, and
then how you feel about it andthen what you want to do about
it, and that makes it active andin terms of, in terms of your,
your coaching, how, howdifferent is your approach to
coaching?
Max (34:00):
say, you know an a-list talent who's probably doesn't
have to audition anymore, youknow just booking work compared
to an emerging actor in one ofyour workshops.
Do you change how youcommunicate?
Is it all?
Everyone's at the same level,same process, same?
Ivana (34:16):
Well, I just think it's a good.
I've been doing this techniquefor about 30, some years, 35
years, and I just find that it.
Why would you change it up foran A-list actor?
I mean, it's like you got tothink of everybody as either
(34:37):
they are an A-list actor orthey're the future A-list actor,
and that's in my head.
I don't change anything.
I don't have that kind of fanthing.
What I have is it's funny,because when I've gone on red
carpets with people, it's likewhen everybody's screaming their
name, no, that's just HalleBerry, that's my friend, halle
Berry, you know.
(34:58):
She knows my stuff, I know herstuff and it's like she's just
Halle, you know, and so it'sjust to me.
You've got to take out thehierarchy.
It's been forced upon us forcenturies and centuries that if
you come from royal blood you'rebetter than someone who's a
peasant, and so we upgrade thatto the same kind of thing.
(35:21):
It's like A-list actors versusstarving actors working at a
restaurant.
To get by living with eightother people, you know, like
everybody has.
I mean this story isvis film onone of yours, travis, and used
to uh, because he didn't haveenough money, they have a place.
He used to sneak in at night tothe studio, sleep on the, the
(35:46):
prop furniture, wash himself upin the in the studio bathroom
and then try to sneak out beforeit was found by the morning
teacher, and he got caught once.
But we're all friends, we're acommunity.
My technique also creates acommunity.
So now I have schools all overthe world, I have a community
(36:06):
that's international and I loveit.
I have friends and wecommunicate in ways that we feel
safe in telling each otheranything and everything, and so
that, I think, is a great story,because now he can afford
whatever he wants to afford,right, Whatever he chooses to,
but his thing was always beinggreat and oftentimes he just
(36:30):
wanted to be proud of his work.
He's another person who doeseverything three times,
sometimes to an annoyance.
I'm joking.
He says you know how I work andI go online.
And I said, no, we have to doit a third time, and so this is
an episode.
So he goes episode to episodeand that means that it's like a
lot of work.
That means he doesn't have alife.
He basically goes to work andworks with me.
(36:51):
He goes to work and works withme.
He goes to work and works withme, and so, but that's, you know
, and it's all about.
He's turned down because he's agood looking guy.
He turns down those kinds ofroles because they're not
interesting to him.
He wants to be proud of hiswork.
He wants to feel like he'sdoing something or each role
that he's doing somethingdifferent and something that he
(37:12):
can explore a whole, whole otherreality with, and not just make
the money.
He doesn't care about the money.
Max (37:18):
That's a great way to keep challenging yourself as an
artist.
I think that's a great approachAlso with your classes.
How often do you get directorsand writers sitting in, whether
they're auditing or an activepart of All?
Ivana (37:34):
All the time, all the time, all the time.
Max (37:36):
Right.
Ivana (37:36):
All the time, in fact somebody.
Just they workshop the materialthat they write.
Because I think people need tobe more proactive in their
careers, to write stuff likeBaby Reindeer, you know, because
then they become a huge star ofsomething he wrote and it's his
life and that kind of stuff.
Anyway, someone wrote somethingthat was it's his life and that
kind of stuff.
Anyway, someone wrote, um,something that was part of his
life.
(37:56):
It's got a fictionalizedversion but it's pretty
autobiographical.
Someone in class happened to bethere who happened to be a
producer, and he said I lovewhat I'm seeing and I'd like to
produce it, you know.
So it's like that's happeningas we speak.
I'm not talking like this isnot urban legend, this is going
on as we speak.
I'm not talking like this isnot urban legend.
This is going on as we speak.
(38:16):
Fantastic you know, and thishappens all the time, because
we're all in it together.
We're an actor, director andwriter.
We're telling the same story.
People forget that.
So if a director comes up toyou and he says I want you to do
this, it's because his visionisn't what you're doing.
So it's up to you to also havethe conversation.
(38:37):
What is your vision?
What is it that you see aboutthis character?
And then it may need aconversation to say your point
Again.
I worked with Hallie onMonster's Ball.
We had Mark Forster and forseven hours we went through
scene by scene, the three of uson my couch in my living room
just talking about the stuffthat we thought needed to be
(38:58):
changed, his reasons why hewanted to keep it or how he
wanted to change it or omit itor whatever.
It was a real ensemble kind ofwork process.
So it became just like anamazing thing for us to do this
off of just everybody wantingjust to make the best product,
(39:18):
no egos.
Max (39:20):
Yeah, that's fantastic.
There's no passengers,everyone's willing to do the
work.
That's fantastic.
It's how you get better work, Imean.
I think it's interesting too.
As a writer, there'd be nobetter place to see your work
come to life than in thatworkshop environment, when
actors aren't afraid to reallypush themselves, and sometimes
(39:40):
it could be perhaps the firsttime they're hearing their work
come to life with actors.
Ivana (39:46):
I script doctors, so I give them notes.
I say there's a hole there.
There's a big-ass hole there,so you need to fill it.
This is three suggestions onhow you can fill that hole.
Or do you think that you shouldmake this person more this or
less that, or make that personmaybe here's an idea let's give
them an addiction that they tryto overcome as well, or whatever
(40:07):
.
It's just we play, we'replaying, so it's not just
they're seeing their work.
What they're doing is doingexactly what actors are doing.
They're also learning andgrowing and and experimenting
you need to get some credits asscreenwriter.
I think that's I, I, I literallyhave said don't give me any
(40:30):
credit for this at all, becauseI want to feel like I.
I am the um, your, your dirtylittle secret, you know I'm fine
with that.
The other way I quit acting isbecause I didn't.
I want to be the, the supportsystem, the nurturing system,
and just, I guess the base is Idon't really care about it.
(40:52):
It makes me uncomfortable to bethe star and like that person
Everybody's tabloiding,celebrating in that kind of
weird way.
I want to be a nurturingresource that helps them come up
with new, really cool ideas.
And the reason why is because Inever had that growing up I
(41:12):
didn't have a nurturing resource.
Reason why is because I neverhad that growing up I didn't
have a nurturing resource.
I had a mentally ill mother whowas a hoarder and who was like
really clinically insane andshould have been on meds and or
in a place.
But if somebody that she wasn'tproperly diagnosed, weird stuff
happened all the time and myfather was off changing the
(41:33):
world helping other people, sohe was never home.
He was a civil rights attorney,he was a labor lawyer.
He was like the first Blackmembers of the executive board
of the ACLU.
He's that kind of guy and so Ifeel like I wanted to be him.
I wanted to be him that helpspeople but not get necessarily
(41:55):
credit for it.
But I had a funeral.
It was like the people therejust said your father changed my
life, your father changed mylife.
And then I have what peopletell me while I'm still alive,
because I won't know whatthey're saying when I'm dead,
like it's why, but I don't knowwhat's going to happen.
Max (42:15):
You're still trying to influence what they say now, yes
, unknown territory.
Ivana (42:18):
But the thing is is that when they tell me you've changed
my life, you made me feel like,um, I have a chance.
You made me feel empowered bymy pain, my shame is gone, all
this stuff, and that makes mefeel so good and I feel like I'm
carrying out my father's legacy.
Max (42:34):
That's fantastic, I mean, that's so really your fuel, your
motivation over the years, andprobably why then you found this
path is because it comes from aplace where you really want to
give people what you didn't haveas much of growing up.
I mean, look and over yourcareer too.
(42:55):
I'm sure you've seen so manyactors and what advice would you
have for, say, an emergingactor trying to navigate the
business of acting today?
Ivana (43:08):
I think what you have to do is people have got to jump in
head first with getting theirpictures done and trying to get
an agent and stuff like that.
But if you screw up, if youburn bridges, you burn them, and
because there's so many peoplethat want to do this that if you
(43:30):
burn a bridge, it's unlikelyyou're going to get seen again.
So the smartest thing to do tonavigate this business is
getting great first.
It's like a doctor setting upshop to take care of you when
he's only gone to med school andhe didn't do any residency or
anything that he actuallyspecifically applied it.
(43:50):
So we're getting like some guywho goes to a book.
You know so I wouldn't wantthat person, I just it would be.
You're never going to makemoney doing that or have success
doing that.
So you got to do it the rightway study, study, study.
Um, my classes are ones thatpeople are working actors, so
everybody networks and helpseach other out.
(44:11):
You know, here's my agent, or,or this is a part I just got.
I mean, travis does this allthe time.
Who do you got that's like this, this and this, because I want
to use your people and my stuffthat I'm doing and most of the
people in my classes are likethat.
So the issue is study first,get.
So you can't burn a bridge.
(44:32):
You will absolutely burnbridges, you know so.
If you want to be somebodythat's going to really be
successful, you first got to doit.
All the greats that I know of,and all the greats before, are
the ones that have you knowpeople before my time or not,
part of my world.
They've all studied, studied,studied and they continue to
study, and they all have coachesand, whether you know it or not
(44:53):
, they've all studied, studied,studied and they continue to
study.
And they all have coaches and,whether you know it or not, they
generally do.
Max (45:00):
I think that's great advice and that's been my experience
too, and I know I keep sayingthe Australian industry is a bit
smaller, but I think you knowit's a small world in our
community globally.
And I you know you can't affordto burn any bridges, especially
when you're starting out, andso you know you can't afford to
burn any bridges, especiallywhen you're starting out, and so
you know that level ofprofessionalism at all times.
I've interviewed a castingdirector award-winning casting
(45:21):
director on the podcast who saidyou know, I've seen an actor
come in for a televisioncommercial and I've just been
blown away and gone.
Look, not right for thisparticular project, but this
person's going places.
I'm going to remember this.
This person I'm, although Imight be putting them forward to
the client and sure enough, youknow, a few months later a role
(45:43):
comes up for a feature and, uh,it's like I know who would be
perfect for this.
You just can't afford to ignoreany opportunity, no matter how
big or small you might perceiveit.
Ivana (45:53):
Um, you've got to be professional and you only make
one first impression and it'salso like if they, if they
really like you, you may not getthe part, but, like this person
said, it's like they'llremember you because there
aren't that many people thatblow you away.
Right, but you can't blowanybody away by just showing up
and memorizing the lines or evenhaving a little bit of training
(46:16):
and then expecting to that.
That's going to hold water.
It's like going, it's likeexpecting to get to the olympics
but only doing a couple of youknow classes in olympic type
training.
It's like you gotta work yourass off and I and I just can't
say enough it like the studyingprocess.
One of the things that youmissed about Charlie Stair's
(46:36):
quote is that she said shelearned a lot when she fell on
her face.
And then she said and I fell onmy face a lot.
Sometimes she would say I'dlike to do this scene.
I said you know you're notreally quite right for this, but
what the heck, you know, let'ssee what you do with that.
And of course she wasn't rightfor the part and I was probably
(47:00):
right in her, probably shouldn'thave done it.
But the point is it doesn'thurt to take chances.
I'm being funny when I saidthat, because the idea is, who
knows, maybe there's somethingabout her that may be right for
that role.
Um, it was a role that was alot of years older than her and
someone who was the second wifeI mean the first wife, not the
(47:22):
second wife and she was at thetime 20 years old.
So just, I don't know thehistory of her life that she
could like apply to that.
But she got for lack of trying.
But some of the things that shedid in class was so nervy and
ballsy and she was just I, justI said everybody always waited
to what she was going to do andthis is the beginning of her
(47:45):
career because she just was justa natural risk taker.
I remember having a conversationwith her.
I said she was denying a bunchof stuff that she said.
I said you know, you have toput what you just told me about
your childhood stuff, you haveto have some feelings about that
.
So now I'm over it, I'm over itand I said, well, ok, you can
play that game and nobody willever know who you are, or you
(48:08):
just like tell me, let's justlook into this and see what
feelings you have about it andhow that manifests itself in
your present day life.
And she said, and I said, youcan be famous real fast.
Okay, your choice, because youhave to have the balls and the
bravery and bravery is sexy toactually just really expose
(48:30):
through your work the deepestand darkest.
And so she said, okay, let's doit.
So it was like that quick, youknow, and so we did, and well,
the rest is history, you knowshe's a risk taker.
Max (48:44):
Risk taker, I love it.
I think if we take one thingaway, it's it's, it's the risk
taker.
Don't, don't, don't forget that.
I think, look, it's fascinatingto just to hear your, just when
you start drawing from theseexperiences and conversations
with actors who are sosuccessful because they do the
work, because they take therisks.
I think you know it's atestament to you and your skills
(49:06):
and experience.
I know you don't like to stepinto the limelight, but I think
that's fantastic to be able tobe in a position where you are
to say you're wanting toactually successfully nurture
all this talent and to have allof these amazing experiences and
conversations and successfulactors to draw from as you help
(49:28):
others in the craft.
I think that's a testament toyour skills and experience.
Ivana (49:33):
And I want people to know that we're a special breed, you
know, and it's like, and then Iknow that you lost time being
in the corporate world.
But time is bent, you know,it's all like I said before,
it's like time when I'm teachinggoes fast, time when I'm acting
(49:57):
goes slow, and it's because Ilove teaching, not so much that
actually being the actor, butthe thing is that 20 years has
been truncated, and make up forit.
Max (50:11):
Yeah, I love it.
Thank you so much, IvanaChubbuck, for a great
conversation, and your updatededition of the Power of the
Actor will be released.
I think it's the 29th of April.
It should be required readingfor any actor.
Ivana (50:24):
Also an audio and I did the audio book.
Max (50:26):
Oh, did you?
Oh, so you sat in the room andrecorded the whole book.
Ivana (50:31):
Oh, I wrote it, I should talk about it.
I utilized the whole book.
Oh, I wrote it, I should talkabout it.
I utilized the 12 steps andsome of the formula stuff.
I actually talked you throughit so you can actually put your
earphones on.
Just listen to that rightbefore a tape.
If you have to play stoned orwhatever, I actually walk you, I
actually talk you through it,so you're actually going through
the exercise.
Oh so it's actually very, um,practical yeah, to me a double's
(50:54):
a double thing, and so you getthe book and the audio which you
listen differently than youread.
You take things in differently,so you'll be more exponential
connection to your skill levelwhen we exponentially grow from
using both.
Max (51:13):
We can all have you in our ears, in our heads, on set in
the moment.
Thank you very much, ivana,much appreciated.
Ivana (51:22):
Absolutely, and thank you for some really good questions
and good luck with your career.
Make positive choices, takerisks and continue to just like,
make choices based on thingsthat you're going through in
today's world.
So it's raw and pretty to oneemployed actor.
I have the pleasure of talking to acting coach and
author of the book 'The Power ofthe Actor', Ivana Chubbuck.
Ivana is the founder anddirector of the Ivana Chubbuck
Studio and creator of theChubbuck Technique that many
actors lean on, including HalleBerry, Charlize Theron, Brad
Pitt, Jake Gyllenhaal and somany more over her 35-year
career.
So join us today while we delveinto the acting world according
(00:22):
to Ivana, right here on TwoUnemployed Actors.
.
Ivana (00:42):
I just got to say you got to send me the song so I can
sing this all the time in myclasses.
Max (00:49):
Because the joke, of course , is, as an emerging actor, you
know, sometimes the gap betweenthe projects are longer than the
actual projects themselves.
You know, and I guess that'sthe challenge staying work fit
in between.
Ivana (01:00):
Can I change the lyrics to 'two employed actors'?
I like to see the positivehere.
Max (01:11):
I love it.
So I think a nice way to delveinto your 12-step acting
technique, which forms thefoundation of your book.
I mean there are a number ofacting techniques out there,
what advice do you have foractors who are really sort of
struggling to find what worksfor them, and how would you
introduce your technique tothose actors?
Ivana (01:34):
I think people take too much emphasis on making honest
and truthful, because justhonest and truthful by itself is
a couple of things, a little onthe boring side, and two it's
it's a little self-involved.
And so the idea is we want tofind the things that will allow
(01:57):
us to propel us, to fuel us,into doing acts of daring
emotional daring that allows usto try to overcome and win,
whatever our objective is in thematerial.
And we want to watch emotionalheroes.
We want to watch people whotake the things that we all go
(02:18):
through whether you've hadsevere realities like I've had
with a very violent emotionallyand physical mother growing up,
and then a lot of relationshipsthat also were not so good
either, I must say myself and Ithink and then just life
(02:40):
happening and all these thingsthat we usually self-destruct
with and we usually get shamedfrom and we usually become
defeated by, and so I I feellike what we have to do is, in
order to get a job, you have toinvest the people that are
watching, whether the the peoplethat are watching is a casting
(03:01):
director or director or produceror an actual audience.
It's like you have to investthem if they're not invested,
just like life.
If you're not invested inhaving a relationship with that
other person, they're not goingto want you on their set or on
their stage.
They're going to want to bewith people that they feel they
have a relationship with.
(03:22):
So so when actors get into thisplace where they say, well,
just got to keep it honest andreal, kind of create this honest
and real bubble, what happens?
You're kind of keeping peopleout and keeping people from
coming in and you're just havingan emotional moment for
yourself and it becomes kind ofvery self-centered and and and
also when people do that, it'shard to be around them.
(03:46):
It's a little kind ofoff-putting.
Just in real life, say, a reallife person is.
We all have people like that inour lives.
They always have honest andreal and truthful pain and they
talk about it non-stop, and sowhat we want to do is stay away
from those people.
You could love them a lot, butwe don't.
We have issues with just it'sso depressing to be around
(04:07):
people that are so real andtruthfully exploring their pain.
But people we want to be aroundare people that want to do
something about it, people whosay I think I'm going to be
proactive, yes, things are bad.
(04:27):
Yes, I've hit bottom, but whatdo I do?
How do I find a way to changethat?
How do I find a way to solvethat?
Have some resolution, find somekind of learning.
Some way I can learn from thissituation that happened.
And how could I ultimately findcatharsis?
(04:48):
And so, when being proactive,which is the mark of a dynamic
person, most people like to sitin their pain.
That's just the reality.
But what makes somebody popularand charismatic are the people
who say, yes, this is happening,whatever it is.
Or people are being saying thatI can't accomplish this or that
, or I got people negating mytalent or your abilities, or
(05:13):
you're too old, or you're toofat, or you're too skinny, or
whatever it is.
I tell you can't make it isthat I'm going to win in spite
of you and because of you, inspite of and because of you,
which means that I'm on ajourney, that you're creating
your audience again, whatever itis, whether it's people who can
(05:35):
hire you or people who are anaudience to want to support you,
like a rooting section, like insports.
And so I always like to usescience.
Science is a very interestingthing because, basically, we're
human animals like a rootingsection, like in sports, and so
I always like to use science.
Science is very interestingthing because basically we're
human animals and there's justall science of why we do the
things we do.
Um, so I've studied, uh,behavioral science, psychology,
(05:56):
the science of psychology andcultural anthropology, the the
history of culture, which meansthat we can play things and
understand why, why people havethe culture that they had.
When we want to play somethingfrom a period piece or from a
particular country that we'renot from, that allows us to
(06:17):
really understand the characterprofoundly, and then we're
watching them try to overcomesomething that's in their way,
whether it's emotionally orphysically or both, to overcome.
So the science lesson here isthat there's proof from
(06:37):
archaeologists that there wassport being played by early man
before he became upright.
Neanderthal man was playingsport and games of contest and
so.
But that's millions of yearsold.
Theater is 2,000 years old,ancient Greeks, okay, so let's
(06:57):
do some math here.
Okay, we have millions of yearsago, coming from that place, of
understanding the win-losesituation, trying to win, of
understanding the win-losesituation, trying to win
something, and the win-losereality, or people who want to
feel things.
We want to engage people like arabid sports fan.
You do that, people will feellike they have to have you in
(07:22):
their cast.
It really is as simple as that.
It's like going on a date.
You go on a date and thatperson goes on and on about
their exes and how awful theywere.
Do you want to go on a seconddate with that person?
I call that the callback.
You're not going to get acallback because you're
(07:43):
depressing them.
Max (07:46):
I love that it's a more constructive mindset.
It really is, and I thinkthat's great, because I know I
read that Pamela Anderson saysyou helped her, and I love this
quote 'turn messy life intointeresting work'.
And I think it seems to be acommon theme that successful
actors say you know theirability to tap into any pain in
(08:06):
their life and learn.
Ivana (08:07):
I'm going to do something with it as opposed to sitting
(08:29):
in it and so I think I thinkpeople all know the reason why I
feel like that my technique has, has helped so many people book
really great jobs.
I mean, it's in the bookings,right, you gotta book, yeah
that's it because you can't.
You know what I say.
Max (08:48):
You can't take a call back to the bank absolutely, and you
look at your bank account assuccess, especially as an
emerging actor, you know.
So yeah, absolutely 100absolutely.
Ivana (08:57):
And the thing is, but if you go in thinking, okay, yes, I
feel like I've been rejected abunch, but you need to, you need
to take that information, say,the next one is mine and I'm
going to figure out how to dothat, how do you do that?
You got to study more.
You got to figure out, like,what is missing in your work,
that all those no's happenedbecause I used to be in casting.
(09:21):
I was married to a producer,director, who's won so many
awards in his movies and TV, andit's like I've sat in so many
casting sessions.
I know what books, and whatbooks is people that aren't
trying to do what they think ison the page.
I call it paper pleasing.
So if you do it, oh, they wantto see this, this and that
(09:41):
that's not what they want to see.
They want to see this, this andthat that's not what they want
to see.
They want to see yourspecialness, which means all
your flaws, embrace them, allyour neuroses, embrace them,
bring them to to go after tryingto overcome and win.
Whatever the objective is inthe script and and and and.
Therefore it becomes a veryspecific, mannered, quirky,
(10:06):
interesting role that nobodyelse is bringing to the table,
but you have to do the work andall these people who think that
they're just talented so they'regoing to show up.
I did kind of a mush of work.
I kind of know what my overallobjective is and I'm going to go
in with that.
It's just they have people whowill do the work and they will
(10:27):
get the job and they will getthe awards.
You know, talking about Pamela,we worked through the last
showgirl three times, wentthrough every beat, every
thought.
There are many moments whereshe was not speaking, but we
went through those scenes asdeeply and as specifically as we
did the scenes that haddialogue.
(10:49):
And she wanted to do it threetimes because we always added
layers and dimension.
And layers and dimension andadding because I don't work from
like method is about going backin time what's going on in your
life right now?
Because you don't know how it'sgoing to end up.
So you're in the raw, you'regritty and raw and you're using
the stuff that you're trying tofigure out in today's world.
(11:09):
It might be relatable tosomething that happened to you
early on in your life, butthat's called psychology.
But that's who we are today isaccumulation of all the things
that have happened.
So, whatever's going on in yourlife right now that you're
(11:32):
trying to solve, you use it sosay something changes.
You're middle of a shoot,you're on episode three and
you've successfully been usingsomething that is um been
working for you, but somethingnew has happened.
Someone just died, or or um, oryou, or you just got um a bad
health, and you can't pretendthat's not the most important
thing that's rolling around yourhead.
So I teach you how to usewhat's most current you know,
(11:55):
because it makes you be thatperson who says what's going to
happen next.
Yeah, I love that.
Max (12:00):
I love that and I think even in situations like, say,
you know you're playing a rolein the theatre and you might
have certain you know objectsthat you're using to help at a
moment, and what worked for youover the last 30 performances
may not be working for you nowand you've got to switch it up
and be a bit flexible and also,yeah, of course, fuelled by what
(12:22):
and informed by what'shappening to you and how you're
feeling, you know, in your lifeat that time.
Ivana (12:29):
Yeah, because the most important thing is so people
won't know what's going tohappen next.
Because why you don't knowwhat's going to happen next?
Because when actors pre-planstuff, we know.
I know when somebody'spre-planned stuff, because I
know exactly what they're goingto do next.
So you know what I do.
I turn the channel.
You know what I do.
I leave the theater because thething is, I don't need to
(12:53):
predict my time.
I have so many platforms tochoose from so why not pick?
yours, when I know what you'regoing to do.
I already know what you'regoing to do, so no surprises.
So you have to put yourself ina place where, with all the work
you got to build a very solidhouse before you can put the
right paint and decorations inthere that you can keep changing
(13:17):
and evolving and changing andevolving your performance.
But you got to put, keepputting in things that are going
to make you.
It's a work in progress.
Always, um, I'm going to get agreat, we're going to make you.
It's a work in progress.
Always, I'm going to give you agreat.
Do you want to hear a greatChristopher Walken story?
Of course, of course you do,because he's great, he's
wonderful, right, please.
And it has a longevity ofcareer, which is what we all
(13:37):
seek, right, the longevity, andnot just that one part.
Is that one part?
And then that's over.
You want longevity, a career.
So my husband directed him in amovie and, uh, he would.
Uh, who do?
Had so much writing on his page, the way I teach it in the book
how to write on the page.
And so that's right there foryou.
(13:58):
And between and he'd sit in theset to create place, he'd put
up his fourth wall.
He'd sit in the set to createplace.
He'd put up his fourth wall,he'd sit in the stuff, create,
you know, endow the place.
I mean, he did all the work andthen, in between every setup,
he'd run back to his trailer andchange the work that wasn't
working off the work that wasworking.
So it was constantly a work inprogress Every setup, every
(14:22):
setup, changing it and, uh andand, reconfiguring, and then the
next scene, the same thing.
He just did the work.
And this it's a lot of work andit's not for the faint of heart
yeah, yeah, that's right andthere's.
Max (14:36):
you know there's no shortcuts like anything.
The more you you know acting'sa lot about the doing as well.
I know there's a lot of scriptanalysis in in a technique and I
think the more you you practicethat, though on your feet, the
easier it can be in thosesituations where something's not
working, like in that exampleor I don't know.
For me and as an emerging actor, you know, up and coming, you
(14:57):
don't have the opportunity ofsitting with a role for a year
and rehearsing for it and allthat.
You might get the script theday before, you know, for your
50-worder and you rock up thenext day.
And I had a situation where itwas just that or it was a lead,
but anyway and there was a sceneand it was a busy scene, lots
of extras, lots going on, butessentially a two-hander.
And the director came acrossafter the first take and said
(15:21):
you know what?
It's just not, it's not working, working, um, what do you think
your character should say inthis situation?
Max, like, have a think aboutthat and we'll get going.
We don't have the budget luxuryof I'll take 20 minutes and
I'll get back to you, like,let's go, um, and I think,
knowing I could, I could relaxin a way, because I know my
(15:42):
character's seen objective Iknow, know I can trust that it
fits with the overall objective.
I know that when I'm in thatspace what I say is going to fit
, what my character says isgoing to fit.
But conversely I saw the horroron the other actor's face.
She's looking at me going butthat's not what.
(16:04):
So we have to make up what wehave to say, but like how do we
know?
But we've got to do the same.
We're going to say the samething for the next closeups and
I'm like we're just going tohave a conversation, it'll be
fine.
You know, meanwhile it's soundspeed action.
You know we don't have time andyou can trust the process to
the point where if something'snot working, you can switch it,
(16:25):
you can switch gears.
Or if someone comes across andsays, hey, let's just turn
everything upside down and go,you can have that confidence to
trust the process and open upand be in that moment.
Ivana (16:34):
That's the whole thing about why directors love working
with my people, why I have somany directors and
writer-producers that I workwith.
I get 40% of the people I workwith are directors and writers
and that I work with I get 40%of the people I work with are
directors and writers.
And the thing is they love thisway of working because it can
change an actor so fast, becausewe have so much work being done
(16:56):
and so much substantiation toit from the point of view of the
characters on the page, to yourpersonalization.
Max (17:04):
So all that, the process of doing this, so you're, you're
good to go, you can say, okay,could you change this so that
you're being more sympathetic orempathetic, and it's like yep
because I think, I think, Ithink um or change the scene
objective yeah, it's just likeyou'll just translate what they
(17:24):
want into um actor speak yeah,yeah, because I think
practically the budgets aregetting smaller, right, and and
we don't always have the luxuryluxury of doing, you know,
several takes.
I've worked on sets where youknow budget's so tight even the
series regulars who've beenthere for years, you know, could
say can I try that again?
(17:45):
No, moving on, moving on,moving on.
You're lucky to get two takesand it's hard enough as it is
when you've got a guestie or a50-word role, to turn up on a
set that's been moving like afreight train for decades, you
know, and you've just got tocatch up and go.
It's already hard to be able topivot and things change and
we're moving very fast.
(18:05):
It just so helps to jump in andenjoy the process and still
enjoy the work, even thoughthere's that extra layer of
pressure.
Ivana (18:13):
Well, when I worked Charlize Theron on Devils
Advocate I was there with herWarner Brothers paid for me to
come out, not because she wantedme to come out, so she asked if
they would pay for it becauseshe was my girl and we trusted
each other.
And so, um, the uh, Al Pacino,um, he wanted to take one scene.
(18:34):
I'm just, this is kind of workethic.
You have to have one scene,three pages.
You spent they spent three daysbreaking it down, stopping and
started doing it, tryingdifferent things.
It's like that's what makespeople great.
She is one of the hardestworkers I've ever worked with
and all my all the people I'vecreated and I can't say I prayed
together as a team we'vecreated their startup.
(18:56):
Because I don't take that kindof credit, because it's their
work ethic, they're takingchances.
When I say, well, you want totry this, they They'll go.
Yeah, I remember with JakeGyllenhaal it was like I
remember the first time we met Isaid something.
I just I was like I was like alittle testing him.
Just I gave him somethingreally weird to to try and he
(19:18):
said okay, and he did it and itwas actually worked really well
and I said let's just stay withthat.
We're going to break down thescript of that.
But he was willing to takechances and all the greats.
Al Pacino once said I just makea lot of choices and I hope
they work.
Max (19:38):
I love that.
I love that, and you're rightabout the work ethic.
You're going to get more out ofit the more you put in.
There's no shortcuts.
Like I said and I think I lovethis quote from Shelley's the
stakes have to be high, so itwas a really interesting place
for me to stand on my feet andfall on my face many times.
I love that quote and it raisesan interesting point too.
Once an actor is familiar witha process, say that your
(20:01):
technique.
How important is it to keep,you know, raising the stakes,
your technique.
Ivana (20:05):
How important is it to keep, you know, raising the
stakes?
It's extremely importantbecause it's it's that's what
creates drama.
So if we, if we, if we have tosay objectives, to get to the
other side of a road, so it's asunny day, no traffic, and I
just have to get to the otherside whenever I want to, or we
(20:27):
have.
It's the middle of the night,it's raining down like that
sleet kind of icy rain.
It's not snow yet, but it's iceand it's making it very, very
slippery.
There's huge trucks goingreally fast and it's the middle
of the night and across thestreet your sister's going to
die if you don't get there in 10seconds.
So what do you want to watch?
You know, I mean, it's kind ofa no-brainer to me I want to
watch the one that's calledMount Everest, not a sunny day.
(20:51):
So when you raise the stakes,the more you raise them, the
more we're going to be watchingyou with anticipation.
Isn't that great we want?
We don't want people to go oh,people from places that don't
care about acting technique oranything like that.
They don't talk to each otherand say, hey, irving, that
(21:11):
acting's real good.
Look how that person can cry oncue and then say, yeah, she's
really good, because that personcan just, like they pick up
their cues like they're masters.
They don't talk like that.
They don't talk about technique.
They don't care about technique.
They don't talk about technique.
They don't care about technique.
They care if you entertain them, they care if you involve them,
they care if you have a messagethat they believe in and they
(21:35):
want to be supported and notfeel like they're all alone in
that message.
If it's a message, movie, movie, you know.
So it's like we're there tohelp our public be able to feel
like they're not alone in theirstories, that we are there
telling their stories on thescreen or on stage, for them to
(21:56):
be able to feel like you're notalone in this.
And I'm trying to solve it.
Maybe so can you.
And it gives people, youraudiences, hope.
Our job, job, our job, is togive people hope through our
choices.
Now we could make choices thatsay, oh, this is not going to
work.
I mean like as the, as acharacter, it's not going to
work and I'm going to die.
(22:16):
Or the person.
I'm not going to die and I knowI've just really heard because
I'm in a pit full of snakes andthey're all super poisonous, but
I'm going to find a way to digmyself out Even if you do die.
The point is that that journeybefore you die makes us go.
We don't want you to die andthe person who gives up.
(22:37):
we go like, yeah, the personwill probably die, they don't
really care that much.
Max (22:40):
I love that, I think, because I know at the end of the
book, where you've, where youprovide some advice for actors,
there's a couple of pieces ofadvice that that really
resonated with me, and one ofthem is the take risks, and I
think that feeds into that whole.
You know, let's raise thestakes, let's keep, as an actor,
even in the process, keep,don't be afraid to to take risks
(23:00):
, because I know my fear as anactor is that I'll get
comfortable and it happens.
I feel like I'm a bitcomfortable, I've got my process
, everything sort of falls intoplace, step one to step two, and
I'm like I have to pull myselfout and maybe it's time for
another workshop.
Um, maybe it's time to to haveanother look at the process.
Um, because that's my fear,that I'll get comfortable at
(23:21):
some stage and and I don't wantto make these choices from a
from that sort of perspective-and also the new book I.
Ivana (23:30):
It's all upgraded to, like you know, self tapes and
and the things I know thatpeople want to see.
Remember it's 20 years sincethe last one and so there's a
lot of new information.
If I know, it's going to helpyou book a job, so there's a
whole new section.
It's totally different.
I mean, still tell it us, takethe risk, because I don't think
you got to make bold choices.
Yeah it's just what you got todo, because it's like vanilla
(23:52):
choices is vanilla Beiges color,but it's beige, you know.
So we want, we want to havelike, we want to take chances
and and be able to make peoplejust kind of come alive off of
what you're doing and also itinvigorates you, the actor.
I want to, I, I, what I reallylike to do is give people so
(24:12):
many people have been doing thisfor a long time they lose their
joy of acting because itbecomes so political or becomes
so like, um, you know, put thecamera there and you got to do
this and that and what you wantto do is be able to enjoy
yourself and your joy will beinfectious.
You know people will go.
(24:33):
This actor's choice is soenjoying the exploration.
You can feel it in the work andthe choices that they make that
we get excited as part of yourjourney because we get involved
and invested.
And so I'm glad that you say weget too comfortable, and I'm
not sure comfortable is theright word, because I don't mind
being comfortable but makingsafe choices.
Max (24:55):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.
And I think the other pointwhere and it's just something I
keep checking just to make sureI'm making myself uncomfortable
every now and then on purpose Iprobably could have chosen that
word better too, but you knowwhat I mean.
And I think the other thing Istruggle with at the moment,
particularly around when itcomes to enjoyment, is the
self-tape.
It's something that we justhave to accept now it's part of
(25:17):
the industry.
I mean, australia is a lotsmaller, but there's a heavy
reliance now on self-tapes and Imiss that being in the room and
you're getting that feedbackstraight away, and so for me
it's.
It's the world of self-tapes,where you're becoming a director
and everything.
I think what, what advice haveyou got for actors who really
have to push themselves a littlebit extra to get what they want
(25:39):
out of a self-tape environment?
Ivana (25:42):
well, you just have to think in terms of, um, whoever
you're reading with yeah, it's ascene you're doing and like,
really put it out there.
Um, there's, and the new bookis a full-on chemistry exercise
was an old book that was kind ofdealt with in a very short,
quick way.
Now it's got its own chaptercreating chemistry with the
(26:04):
person that you're reading with.
Even though we never see thatface, we'll feel the energy of
chemistry and we automaticallygo.
He's charismatic from thatchemistry.
Um, bringing in the need interms of the substitution to the
person that you're reading with.
Um, having the inner monologuearound the person for the
substitution using with theperson that you're reading with,
(26:26):
even though we never see thatperson.
It's just a voice we barelyhear.
If you do to think of it as aregular scene, like you would
when you went to an audition, isthey're picking up on the
energy of what they want toultimately see on screen you.
So if you think of it as a, asan actual performing, right now
(26:48):
is not an audition and it'sanother opportunity to just like
, play my craft, then people getthat.
That, that with that humanbeing that's in actually in
front of you for them to watchyou go.
(27:09):
This person is really enjoyingthis process and so I just saw
tape.
Um, yesterday, uh, the persongot, he showed me the tape.
We worked on the audition andthen he, he showed me the tape
and then he got a call, uh, oran email yesterday saying he
booked a job.
It's a lead, it's a two-hander,it's a lead and really great
(27:31):
script and it's just.
But if you look at what we didand how we broke it down, was to
find, even though he plays akiller, it's the joy that he
doesn't see it as killing people, as hurting them because he
hates them.
He sees him killing, killingthem as because I always try to
find the spin, the positives ofa negative is that he's taking
(27:52):
people who are unhappy andpulling him out of their misery.
For him it's euthanasia, so itwould seem to be like a.
It was just a very interestingread because of that, and so
it's coming up with likeinteresting ways to make it be a
more positive journey to thingsthat we automatically judge as
being bad people I love that Ithink they're being bad yeah, no
(28:15):
, and exactly.
Max (28:16):
I love that.
I think, and I think also it'sa great point to to not get
caught up in the process of ohmy god, I've got to put a
self-tape down.
It's, it's.
No, I've got to get into thisscene like I normally would and
I'm simply filming the scene.
It's less about I've got to getthis self-tape down and getting
into that mindset.
Sometimes, when you like tooveranalyze or you know, you can
(28:37):
end up in a situation whereyou're doing you know you've got
five hours of editing to getone scene down to try and book
the job.
Ivana (28:51):
Make choices based on like.
Again, I keep bringing up thebook, but there's a whole
chapter on what's called energykills and being killed, taking
the victim out of being a victimand how you get hurt or killed
and making it your choice.
So that doesn't seem like it'ssomething that, because we don't
(29:13):
want to watch a victim'sjourney, so that doesn't seem
like it's something that,because we don't want to watch a
victim's journey, we wantsomeone who's might be
victimized by the circumstances,but they're going to find a way
to take the victim out of beinga victim.
And so how do we do that?
There's ways to spin why youneed to be killed and energy
(29:37):
wise or why you need to kill,but killing out that bad energy
that needs to get killed.
So it's a.
There's a chapter called energykills, um and uh, and it's just
like everything is based ontrying to take judgment out of
the equation, because if youjudge your character, it's going
to get judged, and nobody likesa judger.
Think about this Anytime youjudge and you watch two people
one person's judging the otherDo we judge alongside the judger
(30:01):
?
No, we hate the judger forjudging that person.
We automatically take the sideof the person that person's
judging.
So when you judge a character,you're doing the same thing.
You're taking something thatsomebody lovingly wrote,
something that someone's goingto lovingly direct, and you're
saying, well, this person's abad person.
(30:22):
Well, that's not going tocreate them.
The wonderful thing about themovie that's called Natural Born
Killers.
They were having fun, they werecreating relationship out of it
, but they weren't killingpeople.
Max (30:40):
It was just their version of what makes a happy
relationship is different toours.
But yeah, exactly.
Ivana (30:45):
Yeah, exactly.
But just because Raging Bullbeats her up all the time and
they have great sex doesn't meanthat she doesn't like it that
way.
I mean she promotes it.
That's why she won an Oscar.
That's why he won an Oscar.
Because the thing is, they bothmade it that.
That's just how they doforeplay.
They like the violent part.
It helps them with their sexpart.
(31:06):
It makes great sex for someonewho's a world champion fighter
and the wife of a person whowould be attracted to someone
who likes to do physical damageto people in the ring.
So it just made a match-up,made it happen, right, and so
people.
But you can judge.
Oh, she's being abused.
It's like well, some peoplelike to be abused because it's
(31:30):
what makes whatever theirrelationship work, because it's
what they both like Withoutjudgment.
You constantly have to take thejudgment out of things because
once you put the judgment in,you just lost the role
Guaranteed 100%.
Max (31:48):
You're heading back into safe territory.
Ivana (31:51):
It's not safe territory.
It's territory that's makingpeople say why would I want to
watch this movie?
Because it's by ugly people.
It's territory that's makingpeople say why would I want to
watch this movie?
Because it's by ugly peopleyeah, yeah, got it.
Max (32:00):
I think the one thing, that another thing that resonates
with me from your work and yourbook is the importance of active
listening, because you can seethose moments when an actor is
simply waiting for the otheractor to stop talking so they
can say their lines.
I think it's that's somethingthat I had to work on a lot.
At the start.
(32:20):
Um went through a workshop inaustralia with uh in the in your
technique, with anthony brandonwong, who was fantastic at
creating this great space for usto really get into it and push
out of your comfort zone,because you know, I'm coming
back to acting after 20 years ofcorporate life, 20 years of
hiding your emotions and all therest of it, and trying to get
(32:41):
into this space where I canreally practice under pressure.
Your technique and activelistening was a part that I was
struggling with and it scared mebecause, yeah, you can
absolutely see those momentswhen an actor is just waiting to
get their line out.
Ivana (33:02):
You lost the job there again.
Because when people tell methey show me their tapes the
directors or the producers thatI work with and they'll show me
the tapes of the finaliststhey're interested in and they
always point out look at whatthat person's doing, look at the
behavior or look at the way theperson's listening.
That's why they oftentimes giveyou these big monologues, not
for you but for the othercharacter.
(33:23):
They want to see how you listen, because rarely does anybody
ever say I love the way thatperson said a line.
So an active listening becauseyou can listen, but it doesn't.
It's a little passive, but Icall it active listening because
the process of that, theformula in that, is first you
take in the information fromyour inner work, the stuff that
(33:45):
you've created as inner work, sowhat you're really hearing, and
then how you feel about it andthen what you want to do about
it, and that makes it active andin terms of, in terms of your,
your coaching, how, howdifferent is your approach to
coaching?
Max (34:00):
say, you know an a-list talent who's probably doesn't
have to audition anymore, youknow just booking work compared
to an emerging actor in one ofyour workshops.
Do you change how youcommunicate?
Is it all?
Everyone's at the same level,same process, same?
Ivana (34:16):
Well, I just think it's a good.
I've been doing this techniquefor about 30, some years, 35
years, and I just find that it.
Why would you change it up foran A-list actor?
I mean, it's like you got tothink of everybody as either
(34:37):
they are an A-list actor orthey're the future A-list actor,
and that's in my head.
I don't change anything.
I don't have that kind of fanthing.
What I have is it's funny,because when I've gone on red
carpets with people, it's likewhen everybody's screaming their
name, no, that's just HalleBerry, that's my friend, halle
Berry, you know.
(34:58):
She knows my stuff, I know herstuff and it's like she's just
Halle, you know, and so it'sjust to me.
You've got to take out thehierarchy.
It's been forced upon us forcenturies and centuries that if
you come from royal blood you'rebetter than someone who's a
peasant, and so we upgrade thatto the same kind of thing.
(35:21):
It's like A-list actors versusstarving actors working at a
restaurant.
To get by living with eightother people, you know, like
everybody has.
I mean this story isvis film onone of yours, travis, and used
to uh, because he didn't haveenough money, they have a place.
He used to sneak in at night tothe studio, sleep on the, the
(35:46):
prop furniture, wash himself upin the in the studio bathroom
and then try to sneak out beforeit was found by the morning
teacher, and he got caught once.
But we're all friends, we're acommunity.
My technique also creates acommunity.
So now I have schools all overthe world, I have a community
(36:06):
that's international and I loveit.
I have friends and wecommunicate in ways that we feel
safe in telling each otheranything and everything, and so
that, I think, is a great story,because now he can afford
whatever he wants to afford,right, Whatever he chooses to,
but his thing was always beinggreat and oftentimes he just
(36:30):
wanted to be proud of his work.
He's another person who doeseverything three times,
sometimes to an annoyance.
I'm joking.
He says you know how I work andI go online.
And I said, no, we have to doit a third time, and so this is
an episode.
So he goes episode to episodeand that means that it's like a
lot of work.
That means he doesn't have alife.
He basically goes to work andworks with me.
(36:51):
He goes to work and works withme.
He goes to work and works withme, and so, but that's, you know
, and it's all about.
He's turned down because he's agood looking guy.
He turns down those kinds ofroles because they're not
interesting to him.
He wants to be proud of hiswork.
He wants to feel like he'sdoing something or each role
that he's doing somethingdifferent and something that he
(37:12):
can explore a whole, whole otherreality with, and not just make
the money.
He doesn't care about the money.
Max (37:18):
That's a great way to keep challenging yourself as an
artist.
I think that's a great approachAlso with your classes.
How often do you get directorsand writers sitting in, whether
they're auditing or an activepart of All?
Ivana (37:34):
All the time, all the time, all the time.
Max (37:36):
Right.
Ivana (37:36):
All the time, in fact somebody.
Just they workshop the materialthat they write.
Because I think people need tobe more proactive in their
careers, to write stuff likeBaby Reindeer, you know, because
then they become a huge star ofsomething he wrote and it's his
life and that kind of stuff.
Anyway, someone wrote somethingthat was it's his life and that
kind of stuff.
Anyway, someone wrote, um,something that was part of his
life.
(37:56):
It's got a fictionalizedversion but it's pretty
autobiographical.
Someone in class happened to bethere who happened to be a
producer, and he said I lovewhat I'm seeing and I'd like to
produce it, you know.
So it's like that's happeningas we speak.
I'm not talking like this isnot urban legend, this is going
on as we speak.
I'm not talking like this isnot urban legend.
This is going on as we speak.
(38:16):
Fantastic you know, and thishappens all the time, because
we're all in it together.
We're an actor, director andwriter.
We're telling the same story.
People forget that.
So if a director comes up toyou and he says I want you to do
this, it's because his visionisn't what you're doing.
So it's up to you to also havethe conversation.
(38:37):
What is your vision?
What is it that you see aboutthis character?
And then it may need aconversation to say your point
Again.
I worked with Hallie onMonster's Ball.
We had Mark Forster and forseven hours we went through
scene by scene, the three of uson my couch in my living room
just talking about the stuffthat we thought needed to be
(38:58):
changed, his reasons why hewanted to keep it or how he
wanted to change it or omit itor whatever.
It was a real ensemble kind ofwork process.
So it became just like anamazing thing for us to do this
off of just everybody wantingjust to make the best product,
(39:18):
no egos.
Max (39:20):
Yeah, that's fantastic.
There's no passengers,everyone's willing to do the
work.
That's fantastic.
It's how you get better work, Imean.
I think it's interesting too.
As a writer, there'd be nobetter place to see your work
come to life than in thatworkshop environment, when
actors aren't afraid to reallypush themselves, and sometimes
(39:40):
it could be perhaps the firsttime they're hearing their work
come to life with actors.
Ivana (39:46):
I script doctors, so I give them notes.
I say there's a hole there.
There's a big-ass hole there,so you need to fill it.
This is three suggestions onhow you can fill that hole.
Or do you think that you shouldmake this person more this or
less that, or make that personmaybe here's an idea let's give
them an addiction that they tryto overcome as well, or whatever
(40:07):
.
It's just we play, we'replaying, so it's not just
they're seeing their work.
What they're doing is doingexactly what actors are doing.
They're also learning andgrowing and and experimenting
you need to get some credits asscreenwriter.
I think that's I, I, I literallyhave said don't give me any
(40:30):
credit for this at all, becauseI want to feel like I.
I am the um, your, your dirtylittle secret, you know I'm fine
with that.
The other way I quit acting isbecause I didn't.
I want to be the, the supportsystem, the nurturing system,
and just, I guess the base is Idon't really care about it.
(40:52):
It makes me uncomfortable to bethe star and like that person
Everybody's tabloiding,celebrating in that kind of
weird way.
I want to be a nurturingresource that helps them come up
with new, really cool ideas.
And the reason why is because Inever had that growing up I
(41:12):
didn't have a nurturing resource.
Reason why is because I neverhad that growing up I didn't
have a nurturing resource.
I had a mentally ill mother whowas a hoarder and who was like
really clinically insane andshould have been on meds and or
in a place.
But if somebody that she wasn'tproperly diagnosed, weird stuff
happened all the time and myfather was off changing the
(41:33):
world helping other people, sohe was never home.
He was a civil rights attorney,he was a labor lawyer.
He was like the first Blackmembers of the executive board
of the ACLU.
He's that kind of guy and so Ifeel like I wanted to be him.
I wanted to be him that helpspeople but not get necessarily
(41:55):
credit for it.
But I had a funeral.
It was like the people therejust said your father changed my
life, your father changed mylife.
And then I have what peopletell me while I'm still alive,
because I won't know whatthey're saying when I'm dead,
like it's why, but I don't knowwhat's going to happen.
Max (42:15):
You're still trying to influence what they say now, yes
, unknown territory.
Ivana (42:18):
But the thing is is that when they tell me you've changed
my life, you made me feel like,um, I have a chance.
You made me feel empowered bymy pain, my shame is gone, all
this stuff, and that makes mefeel so good and I feel like I'm
carrying out my father's legacy.
Max (42:34):
That's fantastic, I mean, that's so really your fuel, your
motivation over the years, andprobably why then you found this
path is because it comes from aplace where you really want to
give people what you didn't haveas much of growing up.
I mean, look and over yourcareer too.
(42:55):
I'm sure you've seen so manyactors and what advice would you
have for, say, an emergingactor trying to navigate the
business of acting today?
Ivana (43:08):
I think what you have to do is people have got to jump in
head first with getting theirpictures done and trying to get
an agent and stuff like that.
But if you screw up, if youburn bridges, you burn them, and
because there's so many peoplethat want to do this that if you
(43:30):
burn a bridge, it's unlikelyyou're going to get seen again.
So the smartest thing to do tonavigate this business is
getting great first.
It's like a doctor setting upshop to take care of you when
he's only gone to med school andhe didn't do any residency or
anything that he actuallyspecifically applied it.
(43:50):
So we're getting like some guywho goes to a book.
You know so I wouldn't wantthat person, I just it would be.
You're never going to makemoney doing that or have success
doing that.
So you got to do it the rightway study, study, study.
Um, my classes are ones thatpeople are working actors, so
everybody networks and helpseach other out.
(44:11):
You know, here's my agent, or,or this is a part I just got.
I mean, travis does this allthe time.
Who do you got that's like this, this and this, because I want
to use your people and my stuffthat I'm doing and most of the
people in my classes are likethat.
So the issue is study first,get.
So you can't burn a bridge.
(44:32):
You will absolutely burnbridges, you know so.
If you want to be somebodythat's going to really be
successful, you first got to doit.
All the greats that I know of,and all the greats before, are
the ones that have you knowpeople before my time or not,
part of my world.
They've all studied, studied,studied and they continue to
study, and they all have coachesand, whether you know it or not
(44:53):
, they've all studied, studied,studied and they continue to
study.
And they all have coaches and,whether you know it or not, they
generally do.
Max (45:00):
I think that's great advice and that's been my experience
too, and I know I keep sayingthe Australian industry is a bit
smaller, but I think you knowit's a small world in our
community globally.
And I you know you can't affordto burn any bridges, especially
when you're starting out, andso you know you can't afford to
burn any bridges, especiallywhen you're starting out, and so
you know that level ofprofessionalism at all times.
I've interviewed a castingdirector award-winning casting
(45:21):
director on the podcast who saidyou know, I've seen an actor
come in for a televisioncommercial and I've just been
blown away and gone.
Look, not right for thisparticular project, but this
person's going places.
I'm going to remember this.
This person I'm, although Imight be putting them forward to
the client and sure enough, youknow, a few months later a role
(45:43):
comes up for a feature and, uh,it's like I know who would be
perfect for this.
You just can't afford to ignoreany opportunity, no matter how
big or small you might perceiveit.
Ivana (45:53):
Um, you've got to be professional and you only make
one first impression and it'salso like if they, if they
really like you, you may not getthe part, but, like this person
said, it's like they'llremember you because there
aren't that many people thatblow you away.
Right, but you can't blowanybody away by just showing up
and memorizing the lines or evenhaving a little bit of training
(46:16):
and then expecting to that.
That's going to hold water.
It's like going, it's likeexpecting to get to the olympics
but only doing a couple of youknow classes in olympic type
training.
It's like you gotta work yourass off and I and I just can't
say enough it like the studyingprocess.
One of the things that youmissed about Charlie Stair's
(46:36):
quote is that she said shelearned a lot when she fell on
her face.
And then she said and I fell onmy face a lot.
Sometimes she would say I'dlike to do this scene.
I said you know you're notreally quite right for this, but
what the heck, you know, let'ssee what you do with that.
And of course she wasn't rightfor the part and I was probably
(47:00):
right in her, probably shouldn'thave done it.
But the point is it doesn'thurt to take chances.
I'm being funny when I saidthat, because the idea is, who
knows, maybe there's somethingabout her that may be right for
that role.
Um, it was a role that was alot of years older than her and
someone who was the second wifeI mean the first wife, not the
(47:22):
second wife and she was at thetime 20 years old.
So just, I don't know thehistory of her life that she
could like apply to that.
But she got for lack of trying.
But some of the things that shedid in class was so nervy and
ballsy and she was just I, justI said everybody always waited
to what she was going to do andthis is the beginning of her
(47:45):
career because she just was justa natural risk taker.
I remember having a conversationwith her.
I said she was denying a bunchof stuff that she said.
I said you know, you have toput what you just told me about
your childhood stuff, you haveto have some feelings about that
.
So now I'm over it, I'm over itand I said, well, ok, you can
play that game and nobody willever know who you are, or you
(48:08):
just like tell me, let's justlook into this and see what
feelings you have about it andhow that manifests itself in
your present day life.
And she said, and I said, youcan be famous real fast.
Okay, your choice, because youhave to have the balls and the
bravery and bravery is sexy toactually just really expose
(48:30):
through your work the deepestand darkest.
And so she said, okay, let's doit.
So it was like that quick, youknow, and so we did, and well,
the rest is history, you knowshe's a risk taker.
Max (48:44):
Risk taker, I love it.
I think if we take one thingaway, it's it's, it's the risk
taker.
Don't, don't, don't forget that.
I think, look, it's fascinatingto just to hear your, just when
you start drawing from theseexperiences and conversations
with actors who are sosuccessful because they do the
work, because they take therisks.
I think you know it's atestament to you and your skills
(49:06):
and experience.
I know you don't like to stepinto the limelight, but I think
that's fantastic to be able tobe in a position where you are
to say you're wanting toactually successfully nurture
all this talent and to have allof these amazing experiences and
conversations and successfulactors to draw from as you help
(49:28):
others in the craft.
I think that's a testament toyour skills and experience.
Ivana (49:33):
And I want people to know that we're a special breed, you
know, and it's like, and then Iknow that you lost time being
in the corporate world.
But time is bent, you know,it's all like I said before,
it's like time when I'm teachinggoes fast, time when I'm acting
(49:57):
goes slow, and it's because Ilove teaching, not so much that
actually being the actor, butthe thing is that 20 years has
been truncated, and make up forit.
Max (50:11):
Yeah, I love it.
Thank you so much, IvanaChubbuck, for a great
conversation, and your updatededition of the Power of the
Actor will be released.
I think it's the 29th of April.
It should be required readingfor any actor.
Ivana (50:24):
Also an audio and I did the audio book.
Max (50:26):
Oh, did you?
Oh, so you sat in the room andrecorded the whole book.
Ivana (50:31):
Oh, I wrote it, I should talk about it.
I utilized the whole book.
Oh, I wrote it, I should talkabout it.
I utilized the 12 steps andsome of the formula stuff.
I actually talked you throughit so you can actually put your
earphones on.
Just listen to that rightbefore a tape.
If you have to play stoned orwhatever, I actually walk you, I
actually talk you through it,so you're actually going through
the exercise.
Oh so it's actually very, um,practical yeah, to me a double's
(50:54):
a double thing, and so you getthe book and the audio which you
listen differently than youread.
You take things in differently,so you'll be more exponential
connection to your skill levelwhen we exponentially grow from
using both.
Max (51:13):
We can all have you in our ears, in our heads, on set in
the moment.
Thank you very much, ivana,much appreciated.
Ivana (51:22):
Absolutely, and thank you for some really good questions
and good luck with your career.
Make positive choices, takerisks and continue to just like,
make choices based on thingsthat you're going through in
today's world.
So it's raw and pretty to oneemployed actor.
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