EP92 – Wildlife Photography Competition Tips + are they worth entering anymore?

We talk all about wildlife photography competitions – Vic gives some tips, from her perspective as a judge, on how to enter and we talk about our experiences in competitions and if it is worth entering them anymore.

Episode Transcript

(00:22):
Hello, and welcome to the Uk wildlife podcast
with me Victoria Hill. At men neil Phillips.
Yes. We're back. We are still here kind
of we think. Yeah. We're we're kind of
re awaiting the podcast now a little bit.
We both had a lot of both personally
and professionally. So
unfortunately, the podcast taking a little bit of
a backseat seat it hasn't it Neil. Yeah.
What? We're quebec?

(00:42):
And I say that last time. Or we
are this time.
Well, we'll have loaded of material from Bird
whatever ever happened. Versus July. Isn't it? It
is caused july. Yeah. Bird fares normally at
2 weeks time.
Just under 2 weeks. So shall we start
off our wildlife items, and you can go
first Vic? Because you actually have something met
not a red kite. Don't you? I do.
I mean, I have seen kite as well.
But, yeah. I've I've been out doing a

(01:03):
couple of, like, walking and butterfly photo walks.
And lots of orc kids actually. We have
seen a lot of b orc kids, greater
butterfly, common spotted and pyramid Middle, not so
great for butterfly this year, But from what
I'm seeing, it seems to be kind of
a trend that most people are seeing. Like,
we we were out on the poll and
he'll somewhere that I would normally go regularly

(01:25):
for butterflies, and we saw a handful of
marble whites and a handful of meadow brown's.
And 1 large skip. So numbers are really,
really bad this year, and actually, I haven't
seen any butterflies or bees in my garden
for the last
2 or 3 weeks,
which a little concerning because right at the
beginning of of, like, late winter early spring

(01:46):
time kinda April time really. I had so
many red mason b's and some other light
little rub Wasp and stuff in the garden
and now just nothing so I don't know
what's going on. But So that... That's kind
of my wildlife sighting, not really seeing much
else other than the grass snakes have been
around. I have seen a couple of them
in the pond, Dave now
disappeared off in search of food, I think.

(02:08):
And I think that's about it. So how
about you, neil? Yeah. Much just same with
the
butterflies and bees in my garden, but I
say, my Red Mason bee And was doing
well, but normally I'm looking at wall card
b's and things like that. And I've barely
seen any. Of really I've seen 2. They're
2 wall card bees. And normally, I'm trying
to photograph from their buzz enough before I
kick at them. And I've even put out

(02:28):
some extra plants from them as well, and
they're they're just not coming in. On the
upside, As say, make people we've been saying
butterflies and beans are down, but dragonflies flies
having in a pretty good year, and that's
what's important. You know, maybe not for us
survival. But selfish point of view. I've done
quite well of them. Had some I let
a walk for as well Life trust and
green light trust over on Candy Wick. And
despite it being windy and most of the
ponds have dried up, we got south Migrant

(02:49):
Hawk and scare emerald real dams offline. And
a few nice bits and pieces. Seen the
spidey Mason Was my local reserve. And I've
been doing quite a bit of po dipping,
but some of you on social media would
have noticed I've started a new Youtube channel,
which did eat into a bit of the
time of us. Of editing... Well, haven't had
podcast cast edit ever I really. Ordered anything,
But that's why we've spend a lot of
time doing. And, yeah. Done 1 dip some
nice sites found a couple of great diving

(03:11):
and b lava,
a 6 centimeters long let us need as
long as you're index finger go massive great
things. And those off a nice little bit.
And I saw seen some lace for dragonflies
flies at Little Bell Park. So... Oh, I
also popped to this place called the Somerset
levels that someone recommended and saw like 10004
spotted chaser dragonflies coming out. The roost, which

(03:32):
was at Absolutely brilliant. That was my Ben
and done. Thanks for driving by the way
then. And, yeah, Absolutely amazing. And I saw
Perez frog as well. But unfortunately, you can
make a good? No. I can't... I was
actually working. It was, like, the 1 day
I had already committed to work, and I
was absolutely gutted because I missed seeing you
guys matt. But we're definitely doing actually aren't.
We are. Yes. And we're gonna record a

(03:53):
podcast cost in that morning as well. I
think. Yeah. I think Pin and dan fishing
to be on a podcast. Something have to
get them on at some point. So... Yeah.
But lots of bits, when I say the
internet life is not as good as normal
quit worrying Out. Yeah. Mean, I went for
a walk. So I did A5K walk. I
actually went down to the pharmacy and back.
And
the total sighting in that 5 k walk.

(04:15):
Bear in mind, I was walking on the
back lanes and stuff in the along the
river. I saw 1 male
beautiful demos. I mean, leisure says. It show
shows the whole dragon of last week. Yeah.
I mean, it's crazy though I would normally
see so many butterflies and beers and everything
else. And the way that I walk down
there. It's past big lavender hedges and so
many... Yeah, it's it's crazy see so many
gardens with so many poll friendly plants and

(04:37):
stuff out but there's no life on them,
which is really, really worrying. Is not good,
but or move on to some wildlife news.
But continuing with the in sector decline theme,
but the glow worm has declined so much.
It's been added to the Ic icu n.
That's the international 1 near Threatened status.
Because it's in danger of because the danger

(04:58):
of its global extinction has increased.
This is due to threats such as Habitat
destruction,
pesticides, and, of course, of Glow light pollution
an issue. They've been struggling in the Uk
for a long time, numbers fell 75 percent.
Oh, climbing. Alright
I'll keeping that in. That was scarier than
the declines. Numbers fell numbers of glow worms

(05:18):
have fallen 75
sent between 2001
and 20 20. So, yeah. Bad news for
the famous glowing insect.
No Is it. Some good news, The wildcat
catch that were bred in captivity, and then
released into the wild in the can have
now bread in the wild, so we have
some wild kittens from captive bread wildcat asking
good news, especially species at high risk of

(05:40):
extinction due to a lot of habitat out
breeding with Fe outdoor pet cats
and disease, and a some estimates put it
at less than a hundred individuals in the
world. I think the more conservative estimates were
about 4 or 500. Yeah. So it's great
that this effort to boost the population. Does
appear to be working, David running? I'm back.
Yeah. I've put up to that cat. So

(06:00):
if you want do your new story now?
Yes. And we've got some other kind of
good news story,
Beaver have been confirmed living wild on another
river catch, and this time is the river
tower do, so they are spreading, which I
think is fantastic news.
They think it could be natural. But I
think people have other suspicions. Because it it
their catch does get quite close to 1.

(06:21):
There's already beaver. So... Yeah, yeah see about
that I guess. And as another neat story
from the Rh ihs that's the royal h
society, who say people are embracing ponds. They've
seen a 35
increase in the south of home plants since
last year, and many of the exhibits at
the Hampton Court flower show had ponds in
2. It's all good news.
Could, of course, home upon is the best
thing you can put in your garden for

(06:41):
wildlife. It is because great everything. With all
the hot weather we've we've had the other
week. All the birds or come in, you
know, birds drink. From it. The insects can
drink from it. It's it is 1 of
the best things you can put in your
garden, and it doesn't have to be a
big 1. It only has to be a
like a little did 1. Yep. And it's...
I've seen loads of people put in these
Mini problems in now. Yeah. It's really good
to see. And finally, you may have seen

(07:03):
on the news that... The media were absolutely
outraged at the stock testers, chuck some orange
powder that you could easily wash off. Oh
all over stone hinge.
And they were sort of demanding why are
they doing these extreme things? You know, I
know they're trying to raise awareness for their
cause. How dare are they... This is ridiculous.
Before literally, a few days later, somewhere between
60 and a hundred thousand people marched in

(07:24):
London
on the restore nature now March.
And most the news outlets completely ignored them.
So that's why I just All do stuff
like that I guess. Yeah. But hats off
to argue that attended that March. It did
get on Sky news, and channel 4 did
a big beast on it. So, you know,
might have raised awareness a little bit hopefully
among people that weren't aware of it, but
there we go. So shall we get onto
the main topic of this episode it? Think

(07:46):
we shouldn't. And I think it's something... We've
not actually... I think we've briefly touched on
it, but we've not really done an episode
on it have with you. No. Because we
we think quite a few talk episodes at
the start. And then we've before oh, we
wanna be a wildlife episode. There's not to
do too many doc ones. And other than
having sort of wildlife camera guests and stuff,
we haven't actually took touched on Photography for
about 3 years at which is a bit

(08:06):
weird when, you know, asked two's his background.
So we're gonna talk about wildlife photography competitions
and discuss whether they're actually worth entering and
what the benefits are. And I should address
right now that any listeners to the bid
tip podcast forecast will be thinking hold on,
didn't check cover this in a podcast. And
wait a minute, it wasn't near award map
podcast forecast, and, yes, we were. But... So

(08:26):
we might cover some of the same ground
a bit, but my opinion has changed a
little bit since then, I think it's fair
to say, And we've got the benefit of
having with it here as well, who... Of
course, you've judged how many competitions now? Oh,
got several. But, yeah, Quite a few. The
the international ones as well. So, yeah, I
can go and give an opinion and somebody
that's actually entered them and has had those
positive and negative experiences, but also from a

(08:49):
judge's point you as well. Yes. So basically,
Jack have got F not me for the
1.
What's 1 of the benefits you reckon I
know for some people. And it's... If we
just talk generally about photographic competitions rather than,
like, the higher end or the lower end
of... Like the levels. Some people do actually
find them really good for seeing held their
own photography is progressing. I know I spoken

(09:10):
quite a few people that say they they
do find. It helps them just judge how
their photography
is progressing.
They can be inspirational for people too as
well. Like if they if they want to
try something else, something new, maybe something a
bit more arty then, yeah. They might be
inspired by
competitions to and you get to meet some
great people. We met for the first time

(09:30):
at an awards ceremony, and They didn't be
know. Anyway, we'd known each other beforehand, but
first time we actually met in person was...
Yeah. Yeah. So so that is that negative
mean?
It's a positive. Yeah. Well if forecast wouldn't
exist about competitions probably with? It to be
fair. I have a negative front. You.
I think you just have to... There's always
gonna be positive for next with everything. But,

(09:51):
like, 1 of the big positives for me
is Yeah. So it wasn't actually a photo
that was awarded in a competition. It was
1 that was... It was printed in the
book, but it was picked up by
someone else, and it kind of chris back.
She she's she's too embarrassed to say it
was Chris Peck. And it it just went
nuts, and and that did actually quite literally
change my photographic

(10:13):
life because from that, I've ended up judging
big competitions. I've done a lot more talks...
Yeah. It it's just really massively helped, I
think with kind of my... As a wildlife
and nature photographer. So it is certainly can
do that. I mean, it... I don't think
it's it's that common anymore? I it's something
that used happen a lot more maybe, like,

(10:35):
years ago, but it can for sure. Yeah.
Because you know, your photos can end up
being put on... News websites. My ones, never
ones that get picked up. I've been... I'm
might all mention how I've done. Highly commend
a few times in national competitions I've won
county wide 1 and I think I got
highly commend in a international an invert

(10:56):
competition as well. So, yeah, It probably hasn't
hurt a lot of was my Pond stuff.
So... But but a bit like. Us I
suppose I probably got... It oh, it helped
boost my. Was worth morale confident that I
suppose with it all because obviously, doing pan
creatures is a bit niche. But, yeah, It
it helped with that, Although, it it did
take a hit again when I got on
a wall at 1 award and Us up
against you know, some the names like Alex

(11:18):
hide and and all that a lot on
the same wall there. It's just like, wow,
You know, these have talked for I've been
looking up 2 years. Or they did take
a bit of a knock when someone took
a pitch
saying water a wall And put it on
Twitter, but they cropped only my photo out.
And I did hear, A I certain well
known macro photographer matter something about my picture
not being proper photography or macro because it's
in an aquarium listed about them, the better.

(11:39):
Which we didn't... You know, to be much
for my confidence, but
it felt impostor in Germany and they call
it. Yeah. Suffered from that quite a bit.
Overall, it was really good and most people
are very nice. And I think that was
my first
decent stack as well. So that's quite nice
that that got recognized. And that was done
by sliding a bean bag across the table
to off of Dragon fly face. So oops
Just revealed what competition is people do investigating.

(12:00):
But never mind, there wasn't the competitions fault.
It was just other people. Yeah. That was
quite nice. It was So and just meeting
people. So Think I'm met Dan for the
first time. I'm at Ben Andrews. There we've...
Just mentioned went on the trip we've recently.
Ben. Yeah in the dynamic duo who both
since his podcast. The hello, guys. Yeah. So
I got to meet them. So that kinda
of negative column as well?
No at over top blokes. I'm at Alec

(12:21):
in as well. Alex sykes. Works but Alex
isn't it is that not only is he,
like, I would put him at the top
of British Mac. He's always hard to pick
you vest, But I to pick someone. I
put him up there. Sorry, Vic. Got Nice
now. She's and
And that the worst thing about him all
is he's a really lovely man. He can't
even hate him.

(12:43):
Who's a lovely man. It's got to meet
Alex. And and other people and
give meet the judges as well. Don't you?
And
sometimes they have a celebrity to... Hand up
the prize. Not that over 1 prize where
you get to meet them. So it's it's
Chris Packer. Wasn't it and I think Nick
Baker done here and, yeah. They've done a
few of the years. Isn't they. There's competitions
to give them out. And we should've have
mentioned this is all like, awards and me,

(13:04):
isn't it. So Often have an exhibition and
give the awards out, And, yeah, People go
in and visit your photos. So my parents
got to go and see my photos in
print, which is quite nice. So that's a
good pro, I think for the competition, isn't
it? Yeah. For sure. And of course, if
you do actually win something, sometimes you get
money, which is always a when plus saying.
Off definitely at the moment. Not that I've
ever... I, know I actually know I have

(13:24):
1 talk vouchers and stuff. Although sometimes, I
will mention on the prize like, if you
win the video category, they'll give you a
entry level cam order or if you win
the to competition as prize an entry level,
Dslr and the odds that. The person that
wins competition doesn't already have a better of
camera is pretty slim. But, you know, you
can always sell the prices, I suppose. And
some competitions they they do give feedback although
I don't find that getting rear and rarer.

(13:44):
Done about you. I think certainly with the
bigger competitions, there's just no chance because of
the number of entries they get, you know,
when you've got a competition that's getting thousands
of entries, there is no way. They can
actually give feedback. I know
there are a couple that you can kind
of request feedback
if you want, they so or you certainly
used to be able to and you would
pay like, a little bit more on your

(14:06):
entry fee and and you would get feedback.
The smaller ones. So, like, something like a...
We, we shouldn't include camera club competitions here
as well. Really, you know, not not just
talking about the big ones, but quite often
with camera clubs because I've judged... And a
lot of camera club photographic competitions. I'm always
asked to give feedback, but constructive feedback, and

(14:26):
it's the 1 thing that I will always
do if somebody asks me for feedback, I
will give them
constructive feedback on the image that I'm seeing
in front of me regardless of whether it's
something I'm used to photograph or not. I'm
Able to actually just look at it in
a professional manner and go. Well, okay, maybe
trying this that or the other might help
improve it or, you know, don't over process,

(14:47):
this, you know, different areas and stuff, but
it's... I've also heard some horror stories where,
like, the judges, on a personal level just
not like the image and give really negative
feedback. And I don't think that's ever helpful.
I would always give, you know, constructive feedback
and happy to discuss stuff with people, but
I think if you want feedback, you have
to be prepared that it might not be
what you want to hear. I mean, it

(15:08):
can be positive and negative, but you know,
if somebody says, well, it's just not in
focus. It's not a criticism of
anything other than the fact that maybe the
photograph genuinely just isn't in focus. Know, sometimes
with with camera club competitions, you can only
judge what is actually in front of you,
especially with the print competitions. Because, you they

(15:28):
have to print them and mount them, and
somebody pulled me I'm upset well you can't
you can't judge on the mounting. I was
like, well, if they've cut half their subject
off, I I kinda can because all of
looking at is half a subject. So it's...
Yeah. Pros and cons of getting the feedback.
I think you have to def definitely be
prepared for both positive and negative. I mean,
hopefully feedback you get from the hiring end

(15:49):
competitions if you get it, is constructive because
I don't think giving anyone, Like, no. If
I call it nasty feedback or like, negative
feedback. It's never gonna help them and actually
might put them off
doing photography in the future or entering any
more.
Then the everything to bear in my with
Judges is is... It's just a general talk
free judge, an talk tuxedo. I mean, all
different talk cat greater, And I got different

(16:11):
elements to consider. And if it's someone that
Usually judge portraits,
if and
landscapes or, you know, artistic stuff, still life
things. They're not necessarily gonna know what on
about with wildlife and nature to talk some
degree. I mean, I had I... I don't
need to go to camera gloves with competition
competitions, but I went to 1 and putting
in a,
a close up of a war over face.

(16:31):
And he's like, oh, it's upside down. What
is that? Is that, yeah. It leaves upside
down in the water. It's not upside down.
That's how. It's it natural say, oh, 0,
that's a 4. There's nothing going on with
that picture. And it's like most intricate... Even
just from the the detail perspective, Which should
have been a 5 or 6. It well,
and I few of my friend in, business
sent know everyone yeah. Don't... You know it's
not about, but, you doesn't know wildlife very
much. And I remember years and years ago

(16:52):
I went into a nature dog feed club,
and the person at ran it was a
very, very experienced judge. Oh, yeah have to
talk free judges are flew in a hud
up at this politely. To para, ball poo.
It's something will just absolutely, you know, just
make up something and to make them said,
they look and know they're talking about. Not
say they all like that course. But, you
know, sometimes they have to say something, and

(17:13):
they can't give everyone a 10 and stuff
like I that So... Yeah. They don't understand
the picture. So you could put in a
picture of I don't know, a red foot
falcon or something, and they would they wouldn't
know what it is and we'll just go
out. To bed on a stick, which arguably
I suppose from artistic point of view, you
could say they're correct. But, yeah, It's an
interesting 1 that isn't it. It's it can
help you. We can also knock your confidence
as well. If you feel you've got a
really nice shot and you get the wrong

(17:34):
judge. I think as a judge, you also
have a responsibility
to be constructive
and not be...
Negative or dis discouraging about something just because
you don't un understand the subject. So
with 1 camera club I used to work
quite closely with. And I am I would
deliberately pick. They would give me the choice
of what I wanted to pick to judge,
and I would deliberately judge categories

(17:55):
that are outside of my photographic comfort zone.
So I've done sports, travel, food photography,
and, you know, other stuff as well because
it helps me grow as a judge. And
okay. I... Maybe I don't understand the subject.
But then, you know, I will be honest
and say, okay, Look, I I don't entirely
understand what's going on here, but from a
technical point of view. Maybe this could have

(18:15):
been done all that could have been done.
There's always ways to give criticism
and be
constructive and do it in a polite way,
but Unfortunately, I think too often,
and it... And I how I do hear
a lot. The comments can be very discouraging
because judges don't understand subject. And as a
judge, that is your responsibility
to,

(18:36):
you know, maybe do a bit of research
and understand the subject, especially if you know
you're judging something that is outside of your
comfort zone. And also, it's worth bear in
mind, my first ever,
national competition success was a photo that I
put into a competition that the year before
got nowhere. It didn't even get shortlist and
then the next year, exactly the same competition
got highly commend. So Yeah. It shows how

(18:56):
subjective it can be. It can. And also
judging panels change year on year. So
know you might see...
Okay. You put something in, you put photograph
a into a competition 1 year. It doesn't
get anywhere. Leave it a few years, you
know, I for couple of years. And then
maybe try... If you feel it's good enough,
try again when they have a different panel

(19:16):
of judges because, you, a different panel of
judges will probably make a different call
because people will see things differently. And sony
with a lot of the the bigger competitions.
It is a panel discussion, and it's a
panel choice. It's not 1 person picking your
image. It is a a panel like, overall
decision. Yes. Staying with judging. That's 1 of

(19:37):
the negatives that I do find with some
competitions 1 personal experience I had was in.
It's like a 1 off competition in Cornwall
and Devon. Wildlife or cornwall or whatever and
or I something like that, and they wanted
photos of corn, west country wildlife. So I
put in 2 common dolphins
sticking the heads out the water, next each
other, which wasn't perfect spoons and everything, but
look, you know, it's not saying you see
every everyday to dolphins head order and a

(19:58):
tough feed and it's young. I mean you
can't get my corn on that. And they
both got commend, but I lost out to
the winning image, which was a king fisher
on a stick again. There's certain things like
that that doesn't tend to happen so much
in the big competitions. But because a like
I saying, lot the judges sometimes aren't photographers,
and They just pick something that looks pretty.
I think. That so you could get the
best ever picture of a wood doing behavior

(20:20):
that's never been filmed or photograph before. And
you'll lose out to the pretty rabbit or
the... Filled of blue bell or, you know,
the king are on a stick, quite often
on... Especially if it's a canada competition, I
something. But then you've got, you know, if
it's a candid competition, then you've gotta gauge
it that someone's got look at it for
a month so they're gonna pick it based
on that. I think it's probably
a good time to actually talk about. Like...

(20:40):
The entering process
if that makes sense. And when I say
that, I mean, from from somebody it's gonna
it, and I know we've talked about this
a lot now, and
I I do discuss it a lot with
camera clubs and groups and stuff that I
speak to. That if you are gonna... You've
decided you're gonna enter
competition x y bed. As the person entering,

(21:01):
it is actually your responsibility
to have a look to see is the
competition bed bright for your image. Like Neil
said, if you're enter a calendar
competition. Honestly, there's very little point in entering
stuff like spiders or ants and stuff like
that because chances are it's not a photographer
judging that competition. Chances are they're also not
gonna pick a spider to go a calendar

(21:22):
up unless it's something like a invert
photographic competition, which is gonna be a very
niche group anyway. So, yeah, it it's kinda
your responsibility as a person entering to make
sure that your image
fits that competition. Now, I have... I mean,
I've judged British wildlife photograph awards for a
couple of years. And, I mean, the name
or alone gives it away British wildlife. I'm

(21:45):
I'm not sure you could be any clearer,
but in the rules it actually states, must
be British wildlife. So I'm not entirely sure
at which point people thought entering photographs of
Tigers qualified as British Wildlife
because there there is a whole section on
Zoos and stuff, and and we'll go into
that later. But read what the composition is
about because you wouldn't put insects into bird
for talk for the year because it's a

(22:05):
competition for birds. So, of course, your image
isn't gonna get anywhere. To you kind of
have that responsibility to make sure that the
competition you are gonna enter or the category
you're gonna enter. Your image is actually fit.
Into that. And and would also
work with it. Like we said you deaf
people aren't and it's okay. Well, we would,
but the majority of people will probably buy

(22:26):
a calendar from a competition, might be, you
know, county level or whatever,
probably not gonna wanna look at a picture
of a spider for an entire month in
reality. Well while we're talking about entering probably
talk about the rules and what you should
watch out for with some competition. So this
is a possible negative. So sound competitions are
out there. Some of them seem to make
a lot more money and, you know, have

(22:48):
less investment in the competition itself. But perhaps
the 1 to look out for, most of
all is you have these right scrap competitions,
you might call them, which is probably a
bit of a harsh way of putting it
for some of them, but probably quite accurate
others. And a lot of them are free
to enter or a low cost to enter
to sort lure you in, have a nice
prize. And then you look at the rights
letter are in the rules, and it says

(23:09):
something along the lines of you give us
the rights to freely distribute and use your
photo in relation to the competition, which is
fine, put it in the book or. And
sometimes it has some very vague that or,
any use the company or organization sees fit,
which actually, I think vic you correct me
if I'm wrong, means they could possibly sell
them even, I think or sell products of

(23:30):
them on, put them in their magazine.
Would actually... You'd have to look at the
exact words. I know something like world. Life
talked for the year, obviously, by entering, you
do allow them to then use your photos
to sell
prints of life or, you know, put them
on notebooks, pencil cases, cushions or or whatever
they put them on these days. And it
will be in the rules, but something like
wildlife top for the year or also be

(23:50):
very clearly written in the rules
that by you agreeing and entering your images,
you are agreeing to allow them to do
that this, but it'll also say it's within...
It's still within the wildlife talk for the
year
competition. So yes, they they can so print
this that and the other bar it's only
in conjunction with wildlife tops for the year.

(24:11):
Because I've heard stories of people entering competitions
and then their images being used in magazines
as stuff without them realizing and consenting, but
they've signed away the right. So just just
be careful in that 1. It's... Yeah. It's
a bit of a ways a gray area
in some ways of what they can do
if some of these finding what you signed
away. But... It is. And it... Is 1
thing that I always say to people read

(24:31):
the rules carefully
because, like, if if they don't
set out clearly what you are essentially allowing
them to do with your photograph, maybe don't
enter. Because if they're being very, very vague
about it, then you know, maybe it's best
not to to risk it if you feel
that strongly about it. I mean, some people
probably don't actually care and that's absolutely fine.

(24:52):
But other people would be very, it very
disappointed to find that their photos been used
in a way that they weren't aware it
would or might be used in, but actually,
you the reality is when they enter their
photograph, that's what they agreed to. Yeah. And
if you're in any doubt, email the competition
and ask them out the right for a
clear explanation. Yep. And if they don't get
back to you, well, Yeah. I wouldn't risk

(25:13):
it. Because it is... Like, while we're talking
about rules that. I mean, this is the
other thing. It's... We said about reading rules
carefully for how your images might be used.
But when you actually get to entering your
images, read the rules very carefully about what...
What is allowed because some competitions don't allow
allowed captive animals. There are exceptions where it
comes to, like, a story or if you'd

(25:34):
like doing photo journalism And stuff like that,
but you have to provide all of the
information in that so that they can, you
know, make a call. The judges can make
a call through that also, like, the the
size and quality of your images as well,
you know, make sure that you are entering
an image of adequate quality
And I say that mainly in terms of

(25:54):
cropping. So okay, with some of the cameras
these days, maybe it's not such a big
deal, but I have seen images disqualified.
At the final round of judging when they
could have potentially won or being awarded in
a category.
But when it's come down to it and
we've actually looked it, they've cropped it in
so tightly, it would barely print in a

(26:14):
book let alone as a as a big
image in an exhibition because they've cropped it
so small. There just isn't enough detail in
that. Yeah. A lot of competitions do have
that written in their rules. Yeah. Just be
aware of how much you're cropping by. I
said, with some of the newer cameras in
that, maybe it's not such big deal, but
just be aware of that because that is
something where people have come crop and also
rules like, like what you can and can't

(26:35):
do in terms of post processing for images
because this is another area that cropped up
a lot when judging. And the reason you
have to be really aware of it is
Because you... If certainly for some of the
top end competitions, if you get through the
first round of judging in your shortlist, they
aware will ask you for the original file
or the raw file. And if you have
been deemed to over process it on a

(26:56):
way, which is outside the rules,
you can very well have your image disqualified
at that point. So something like a lot
of the competition say it, you are not
allowed to add or remove
subjects. And that doesn't include dust spots and
watermark we've before been there where we've got
dust spots from watermark that we've never haven't
realized at the time. It's not talking about
those means you can't clone out bits of

(27:18):
tree or add in another subject. And people...
Again, they've been dis disqualified for doing stuff
like that. So it's other... Rules like that
as well just to keep a really close
eye as to what you can and cut
with post processing. And all, staying with rules,
that's I've had a couple negative experiences with
the rules, which has kinda put me off
entering competitions a it now. I think I
mentioned this in the, P of jack that

(27:40):
he'd been told by epic bit competition, practically
been invited to put in his aquarium
images because he takes p pictures of pond
knife and officials in aquariums, and I had
been
told that it would... What's the words I
use, It be judged on an individual basis
and stuff like that way he'd been basically
told us into what he want the next
year, I did pin them down because I

(28:00):
didn't want to spend the money into and
the time editing, only to then disqualified when
they found out there in an aquarium. I
said to them because I was surveying them
and photograph them as well at the same
time that that would be talks it counts
as conservation work. I said to make sure
it's clear and stuff. So I think they
said they think it'd be acceptable, but I
wished it anyway, which I thought was a
bit inconsistent. And I was suppose might bring

(28:20):
up the pro and amateur
competition divide. So most competitions all except, you
know, the big ones are accept entry from
anyone, but this... You get amateur photography free
competitions. Now, of course, quite a lot of
people that do photography? If they're any good.
I might have sold a print or 2.
So, you know, are they professional. I think
the definition most of them isn't it is
it a less than half your income isn't
it vic? Something like that. Yeah. It's like,

(28:41):
if the majority of your income comes from
photography you. Rd deemed to be a professional
photographer, but it should clearly state it in
the rules. Yeah. Yeah. Although it does get
a bit of vague, you know, if you're
professional wedding photographer, does that still count and
stuff. Again, worth an email to them. But
there are a few out there that have
a, over my any income you count it's
professional. There's not many of those around. But
I tried to enter,

(29:03):
3 or 4 years ago, And I thought
all I'll clarified if beforehand I enter or
I'll clarified. I I told him I sold
couple prints and done a couple workshops, but
it was nowhere near the income I got
from my main job, and hit all no.
No. You've made some income that doesn't count.
But in the following years, I've seen a
few people that earn more money than I
do from photography and sell prints and all
that kind of stuff, and let's just say,

(29:23):
at least 1 has come very high up
in the competition, and they've been allowed to
enter. So, you know, some of these competition
you'd to have a very inconsistent judging of
the rules as well, which as you could
probably imagine has put me off entering to
be honest. I can be a more negative
feeling than when I did the forecast with
Jack. Should say along with a couple other
things I've been going on. Yeah. I mean
the thing is as well like, I think

(29:44):
times are changing as well as there won't
be as many people that have a full
time career as a professional wildlife photographer now.
They will also having income coming from somewhere
else or... But there's also people that will
have a
part or full time job, which is their
main job their career,
and they do photography me on the side
and maybe they sell a few prints here
and there and that, but maybe they earn

(30:04):
a little bit of money, but they wouldn't
consider themselves to be professional photographers. And there's
kind of that little bit of a gray
area there, But again, each should be in
the rules and if it's not just asked
them to clarify.
And people do get cold, Did that chap
with the wolf jump in the fence.
Few years ago while I've talked for the
Effort he won it? Didn't he? Did he
win the competition? He did... It was actually
a captive Wolf. Pete actually recognized the wolf

(30:27):
didn't they. Yeah. And and somebody actually said,
like, you know, that if a wild wall
wouldn't jump over the fence, it would go
under. So, like, when you actually got... People
that understand animal behavior on the judging panel,
which I actually think is a really important
thing to have.
They don't have to be a specialist in
any particular group but if they can understand
animal behavior and and that they don't even

(30:48):
have to be a photographer, you almost need
some of these bigger wildlife
competitions.
I think you need to have those people
on the panel because then they can pick
stuff out and say, it's not right. It
wouldn't do. But, yeah, in the end, somebody
actually recognized the wolf and the setup up
and it was taken in a zoo in
Spain. But yeah, it was a taxi 1
that they'd... I mean, fair plates and they'd
carried a taxi there teach around and put

(31:08):
it on a semi mouth. Yeah. Someone recognized
the model
na. It wasn't just that. I mean, somebody
actually said, but it was a ridiculously long
exposure to get the movement of the the
termites and everything. And they actually said that
there's no absolutely no movement whatsoever in Yan
jan. And even breathing it would have caused
a little bit of blurring of the firm.

(31:29):
Wasn't it a joy exposure there or something
because I remember Seeing it myself. That's exhibit
we went around together, and we we were
I... 1 of them was actually a long
exposure as well. So it's... Yeah. There was
quite quite a few things picked up on
that. And but that, I mean, again, these
these have made it through and being awarded
in,
like, the best,
like, the top of the top, you know,
wildlife talks for the year. So

(31:50):
mistakes happen.
Those people have been suit punished that, you
know, that's... When you get found out from
these things. I mean, you can try your
luck if you want, but the consequences are.
You'd be banned for life from entering these
competitions and chances are other competitions properly say,
do you know what? We... We don't trust
what they're doing is is right. So you
may end up get just getting banned from

(32:11):
other competitions as well. But at the same
time, again, I do think these things can...
Be avoided. I mean, I I would hope
that the people that organized wildlife talks for
the year certainly learn from those
experiences and
they have people on board now that can
pick something cup to say, do you know
what there's something not right with that. It,
you know, we we have to investigate this

(32:32):
further before we go ahead and award this
image because it's not right. And and I
think that's a big thing, but you can
avoid these by having people on the judging
panel to discuss Ethics.
And
you, and it it was 1 of the
reasons I think quite a lot of people
were surprised when I joined the judging Panel
bird for Talk for the year because, you
know, I'm clearly well known for my birth
photography Neil. Yep. You know, mad, I'm, I'm,

(32:54):
you know, very well known for my birth
photography. And... But it's actually
overload Think.
Sarcasm.
There's a lot of you probably know I'm
very, very hot on my ethics when it
comes to wildlife photography, and either, you can
pick stuff up. If you know what you're
looking for,
and because I have written articles about the
ethics of of debating and stuff like that

(33:15):
live bait debating,
there are ways to tell, and you can
tell by behavior has somebody got too close
to an animal,
does it have a look of almost like
fear rather than it... Being more natural. Yeah.
There there are definitely ways to tell, and
competitions can avoid hiccups by having
specialists on the panel that are not necessarily

(33:35):
looking at the quality of the images themselves,
but actually looking at the compositions and the
ethics
of it to see if it's something that
needs to be investigated further, so they're not
necessarily judging the technicalities all or the the
the visual appreciation of the image, they're looking
more deeply into what's actually going on in
the image. Yeah. That does bring us nicely
onto to the. Some of you would have

(33:56):
be aware of those awful images. Stacks of
frogs and frogs right in a snail, and
they actually involve using glue and wires and
stuff like that. And unbelievably
some photos that are quite obviously done by
this have made it into some quite prestigious
photography competition, not necessarily natural history ones. So
I think 1 in the Nash geographic wasn't

(34:17):
their once? There was 1 natural geographic of
a frog
riding a beetle
that wouldn't... These 2 species aren't as you'd
naturally found? To each other or close to
each other. I think not different continents right.
Yeah. And they have actually used them.
They held the hands up and said, look,
We we genuinely didn't know, and they then
use them to
talk about the ethics of of photography,

(34:39):
which I think, you know, great. They they've
learned, but they're also using it now as
an educational thing for other people.
The Sony world
photography
or whatever It was got. I don't even
know if it exists anymore, but years ago.
There was also 1 that came up in
that, and it's like that is so wrong.
We do see less and less of those
types of images involving invert

(35:01):
amphibians and reptile now in the major competitions
because people are on the lookout for them.
They do have a picked get picked up
in magazine articles and online and stuff. But
in the actual
competitions we do see less of them. However,
there is something that still goes on, And
it is a gray area. I appreciate that.
Some aspects of it are definitely not a
gray area, but bait of birds is a

(35:23):
big thing. Live bait or... Dead debating of
birds. And it is a it can be
a bit of a gray area now if
you are... Should we get back to our
fishers again Neil that seem to pick stuff
up old a lot. So there is a
lot of King photography free out there that
uses live bait. It's...
They're actually... The way they've done it is
there is a tank under the water a

(35:44):
that has a fish in it. So the
fish can't escape it's got nowhere to. It's
got finite amount space. So it is live
bait. The king fish can obviously go down
and and get the fish, but So you've
got a couple around, you know, different things
to look at essex there. I'm not saying
this happens all the time, and I know
there are people that rightly are wrongly whether
you agree with it or not. Not getting
into that debate. They do it in a

(36:06):
better way that it is much safer for
the King fishers because it has, you know,
proper soft bottom like the river bed would
have or or whatever. But for people that
don't really know what they're doing and they're
doing, just to get images. It can be,
you know, very dangerous,
almost deadly, actually, to the animals involved. Sent
to the fish. Yeah. I mean, me Jack

(36:26):
we're talking about 8 years ago. And if
you're zoo or you have captive animals in
the Uk. If it's under the zoo license.
You're not allowed to feed live. I think
it's vertebra. I don't fisher covered. I know
vertebra. I know it's like touch pods vertebra
but I think it's vertebra. You're not allowed
to feed live vertebra to anything. If that's
illegal and I I don't know if it's
wildlife isn't it any is the fish actually

(36:46):
captive and it gets into that whole of
when I photograph Upon creatures, you know, you,
I don't count it as a wildlife. If,
but I don't count it as captive. It's
more controlled, I suppose. But so that obviously,
there's the ethics efficacy of the animal there,
but until the ethics of declaring because obviously,
it's easier to photograph a diamond beetle lava
in an aquarium, and then an important in
fact, I I'd say it's nearly impossible in

(37:06):
important accepting in certain circumstances. Yeah... I think
you just gotta be honest about how you
took it as well as
the ethics of the animal to. Yeah. Literally
are misleading people. Well, I you could use
the lion to people as well can view...
Yeah. And Think the thing is Neil, like,
you would
you know what you're doing with them. How
I've been doing it it's whole saying. Yeah.
Yeah. But there are. I mean, you know,
there's incidents where you've got... I think it's

(37:28):
like snake eagles, and they actually... Like, they
nail snakes to the grounds so they can't
get away, and they're alive. They're not dead.
I've also heard stories of areas where they
will nail
live,
like small rodents like mice or whatever to
a tree to attract hours. And, you know,
these these are hides that people will pay
to go to to take or photographs
that then they may or may not enter

(37:49):
into competitions. So, you know, it is a
bit of a gray area. I think generally
speaking, it is getting better than it used
to be. We're not there. Yet. I think
that's done an awful lot that can be
done. But as photographers
And... Again, I've had this discussion with with
both friends and, you know, when I've I've
given thoughts and stuff, and I've been asked
the question. You can also ask what the

(38:12):
situation is if you are gonna go and
photograph something from a hide, you can ask,
is it ab bait hide, how is it
bait? Now, you know, I have used bait
hides
for photograph vulture in Spain. It's not done
all the time, and
they're putting out bones.
So not putting out, you know, it it's
very much

(38:33):
not live based. And it's actually helping with
conservation as well. So there are circumstances that
you can as a photographer. You can go
and do stuff you can be helping these
animals and getting some running good photos at
the same time. And you have that... If
it's something that you feel strongly about is
your responsibility to check that places aren't, you
know, that they're they're not doing there's anything
else I just put in... They'd find some

(38:54):
road kill and put it out and maybe
the birds come down and maybe they don't.
But with with some animal animals, there are
actually you know, legal restrictions as whether You
can bait them or not. Sorry. It's an
absolute minefield. Isn't it? Mh It really is.
It really really is. And you can even
have it going from the other way where
people get
with it. You know, How dare you go
out into the habitat? Or you photographed photograph
the King in the middle of the breeding

(39:15):
regency agencies and that's absolutely ridiculous. Like, yeah,
I'm sitting in a hide that used by
hundreds of people every day. And they I
can go either away with this sort of
thing. And we could probably talk about it
for for hours. But the other thing I
would just say is just also check light
if you need a license to photograph animals,
particularly
in this country, there are animals you do
need a license to photograph. So it's just

(39:37):
worth checking as well because some competitions will
ask for evidence of that license. Or in
the case, say it was a King fisher
at somewhere way like. Right needs or rain
marsh at the moment where you sit in
a public hide, and you can see the
nest hole. That's okay because you're not disturbing
the bird. So the schedule 1 isn't it
is is in case you disturb it, not
just too disturb, I think. Yeah. So you

(39:58):
need 1 then. But let's see, this is
where it gets a get complicated. But if
you're going into a nest hole that is
not on a well used path, and then
you're gonna be, you know, very dodgy territory
you'd to put him mildly. We'll start wrapping
up there. But Vic, if you were still
actively taking photos, would you enter toll competitions
at the moment? Probably not. And some of

(40:18):
that is, it's a bit of a hard
1 for me to answer if I'm on
this deal because
I'm
not really actively taking photos. I'm taking.
I I do still take some as and
when I am able to, which really isn't
very often.
And any photographic time I have now is
it's really... Reserve for taking reference photos my
drawings. So it's quite hard for me to

(40:39):
answer that. I mean, if I was going
back and looking through my ridiculous lightroom catalog,
which I'm pretty sure all of us have
that need sorting. Half a million mine. Yeah.
You're okay. I don't know that many. But
I don't do.
That stacks and time. To for you. I
think it would be really hard 1 for
me to call because I don't know that
I would see any benefit right now for
me. I don't think it would really...

(41:01):
It wouldn't help me from a business perspective.
So I don't I don't know. I probably
wouldn't. There is... I mean, was 1 thing
haven't touched on is it's actually the financial
aspect of it as well. Yeah. Because the
competitions, you know, the the top end competitions,
you do have to pay to enter them,
And I'm anymore. Expensive.
They are getting more expensive and and certainly
for me and this is 1 of the

(41:21):
reasons I wouldn't enter is, but I'm I'm
now having to change what I do in
terms of work. So My focus is is
really all on my artwork, which means I
don't have the money coming in that I
did have when I want was a full
time professional photographer. So I'd have to think
very carefully, but to be honest, Probably wouldn't.
I how about You know because you are
still actively taking photo. And your don't very
much still a photographer. Yeah. I... Was partly

(41:44):
because I'm doing more video now. I think,
But I don't even in the video categories
and what, basically...
Well, to my experience last year that's basically
put me off entered a competition I've entered
many times and was easily my favorite competition.
Basically, I pay my money to enter, then
I couldn't find our photos to enter actually,
but I spent hours going through, like, Whole
west I. Far too many hours, even though
I've got all my best pictures highlighting, Trying

(42:06):
to decide which ones to enter, edit them
a lot of them were stacked, so I
read redid the stacks to make sure they
were perfect. See if we get a better
job out of it. And then I spent
literally the whole weekend perfect a video. I
should have done earlier, you know, going through
and ended did a really nice documentary on
a beef flight for At least off, you
know, because they... This competition in the past.
Done like a show of all the top

(42:26):
videos. Well what, I might sneak onto that,
and it won't hurt, you know, my exposure.
Of, and I think I did 20. And
I think I got about 10 or 11
shortlist. I thought, wow. Yeah. I was really,
really happy about that. But then I tried
to upload. You had to load the high
quality 1, but 2 or 3 of them
were stacks.
And there was no way of me uploading
the stacks. So this is about 2 weeks

(42:47):
to ago before you get to enter them.
So I emailed the competition I think I
got an email back, and they said, I'll
try doing this and it didn't work. And
emailed them back. And in the end, I
had to send them jpeg
of the raw files I used a stash
which isn't what they want. And I emailed
and saying, look, is all I could do.
I can get hold of you. And, I
still never heard back from about it. And
I've paid to enter this. Obviously, not, a
massive amount of money, but still...

(43:08):
So That's not really on... And put the
video in, and they ended up putting...
See free or 4 of them in their
book, and then very generously sent me a
10 percent discount to buy the book that
they use my images in for free for
me paying them to use. You know, I
agree to that in the terms fair enough.
But the book is now... That was even
with the discount was still way more expensive

(43:29):
than if I bought bought a copy when
it was free when you got into it.
But the bit that really hacks me off
was, Us spent all that time doing the
video, but generally I really only to go
and put the tank in the video category.
And I'm told by the winner of the
sick competition he was told less than 48
hours before the awards ceremony, and my people
that attended that awards ceremony. That I was
invited to, but I called out to pay

(43:50):
to attend. But they didn't even show the
video at it. So, you know, It it's
more the time I wasted than the money
I wasted that annoyed me. And that knows
got new people running it from before. And
yeah. That was my favorite to enter. And
And combined with the other thing with, you
know, euro pro you can't enter, but this
program can win competition in another 1. It
just kinda put me off, You know? And
some of the, again king vision and sticks

(44:12):
seem to feature highly in another competition. Of
it's a bit jade with it all I
guess, the word is so what's it's the
time I don't wanna waste So mean? Well,
that's it. And I think, you know, you
have to appreciate how much time it's gonna
cost you because, okay. You might have the
image there, but... It's not as simple as
just throwing an image in a competition, you
know, uploading it to a database or whatever.

(44:32):
It's not that simple because you have to
write the caption as well. And Sometimes the
caption can be the difference between, you know,
winning and not. Yeah. So you have to
think carefully about the captions and stuff. Yeah.
If you... Yeah doing stacking or videos, it's
the amount of time you're gonna spend, you
know, processing them and and working on them.
It's a lot of time and effort and

(44:52):
money. And if, you know, if you've got
other things that in reality are probably more
important for you to spend that time and
money on, then it's just weighing up isn't.
Yeah. It's Just it's... I've decided this is
not worth my time. You know, which might
sound a bit candid arrogant, but it's just...
Now I can get full exposure or
appreciation or whatever it is sticking stuff on
Youtube and Twitter, then I'll get from a

(45:12):
competition. So... I think it's still... I think
maybe as well, there's a little bit of
competition overload.
Competition. I don't know. From tired this or
something. There's just too many out there now.
There's a lot of free ones, and I
get the... I don't think you do get
the exposure that you used to. Even in
your your very top end ones you don't
get the exposure that you used to. But
and then weirdly conversely, there's not quite the

(45:33):
variety of judging because... Used Was it free
or 4 of the big ones in the
Uk now are all run by the same
person with similar judges? I will say all
of the competitions that I've j. Like, at,
like... I'm not talking about camera club ones
now I'm talking about, like, nature photographic competitions.
All the ones I've judged has always been
anonymously. So I've never noticed I might have
my suspicions because people have

(45:55):
styles
and maybe you've actually seen that photograph on
social media already. So I might have my
suspicions as to who took something.
But, you know, certainly all the ones I've
done. They've always been done anonymously, and I've
not known who's 1 or... Or whatever until,
you know, that that until winners have been
announced. Feel very interesting. But I say, if
it's surely worth it, and I don't mean

(46:16):
it's in any way derogatory.
Wait of people to do into. It's probably
worth entering for some people. It depends what
you get out of it. I don't think
the whole exposure thing is quite there anymore.
This some people that a really good talk
has never entered competitions as well. They just
don't think it's worth fit. But other people
get lots of stuff out of it. So
it's... You know, it's gonna be personal tastes
and needs and opinions, I guess, at the

(46:36):
end of the day. But for now, I'm
I'm having a break for a few years
bit that way. It has to be your
your call whether you want to enter or
not. You've got a way up the pros
and cons for you and your photography and
your time and your funds. And no 1
else can do that for you. I mean,
like you said neil, you're you're taking... You're
gonna be taking a break well, I'm now
pretty much changing everything over to really concentrating
on my art because, yes, I... I still...

(46:58):
A little bit of talk free, but ultimately,
it's not gonna be
my main work going forward now. Well, I
think that's a good spot to finish that
long conversation plots me to edit it. But
do quickly before we go any... Well, this
should we talk both very quickly? I will
be back in the puff marquee,
store p 33.
You cannot miss me because I'm right next
to the murals, so please do you come

(47:19):
along and say hi. I've got a special
thing going on with Egyptian vulture this year.
You can come and adopt your own little
needle filter egyptian voucher with or without a
key chain and 5 pounds from each adoption
will actually. Get... I will donate to the
creating brighter futures project, which is the 1
the but bird supporting this year. I am
there purely with my art this year as
well, so it's a chance for people to

(47:40):
come and have a look at. I've got
some original drawings that have been mounted and
framed, and I've also got prints and some
new animals and stuff. So please do come
long and say hello. Hugs are always welcome
as his chocolate. So, you know, if you
wanna come on, sailing it. And we're both
there with I think day we interviewed someone
on the podcast stage. I think the very
funny details I've just been ironed out at

(48:01):
the moment. So Have some more info on
that. And, yeah. Well, I'll be just million
round. Generally, I'll be on Vic stall so
and what we might do is put a
time on Twitter that I might come to
vix stall so you can come in annoy
spoof at the same time. Yeah. I should
be there they're all 3 days as well
this year. I hope it doesn't rain because
we can be. Yeah. I hope it doesn't
rain as well.
Yeah. We hope it's see you there. Yeah.
Please do come and say hello. Like I

(48:22):
said, can't read miss me because this share
Right next to the mural. So there's no
excuse not come and say hello? Other than
that, Thanks and listening. Do go and check
out my new... On top of my Uk
well, Love Youtube channel. I now have... It's
called the Pond lab channel. So if you
like Pond, creatures. Go head there now and
go follow it because there's give me some
cool videos and me po dipping in some
cool places and all a couple of videos

(48:43):
on 1 on diving and beach has come
out. Yeah. Go check it out. But that's
it for me. Same here. No. Not much.
Well. Yeah. I guess the news is that
I'm... So stepping away from photography really. That's
the big news for me Not totally, but
it won't be my main thing anymore, sadly.
I guess a knew was coming, but it's
yet It's definitely happened. So let we go

(49:03):
suck. There. Yeah. Please do come support me
in my new art adventure. I'd really appreciate
it. And We'll see you at Bad or...
Yeah the next episode. Alright. Take care everyone.
Bye for now. Bye. Thank you for listening
to the Uk wildlife podcast. If you enjoyed
this episode, then please do... Subscribe and leave
a review for us on Apple podcast or
whichever podcast service you use.

(49:26):
You can follow us on Twitter. At Uk
wildlife pod or 1? Or on Instagram at
Uk wildlife podcast.
And like us on our Facebook page, Uk...
Wildlife podcast, and you can also post to
the Uk wildlife podcast community group. If you
would like to share your wildlife news or
sighting with us on Instagram wildlife Twitter, then
please tag us in the post and use

(49:47):
the hashtag
Uk wildlife podcast.
And you can now support us through our
buy me coffee account or which you can
find at buy me coffee dot com forward
slash u uk wildlife pod. Where you can
give us a 1 off fit of support
or join our membership scheme. Head there to
find out more. This episode was edited by
Oscar Henderson. You can find him on Instagram

(50:07):
at Oscar dot creates.