December 8, 2024 • 28 mins
Can North Korea's military involvement significantly alter the course of the Ukraine war? Join us on Ukraine 242 as Sarah Ashton Cirillo, an American journalist turned combat medic and sergeant in the Ukrainian Armed Forces, provides an unfiltered look into the complex alliances shaping this conflict. Our candid conversation uncovers the unsettling collaboration between Russia and North Korea, including the surge of North Korean troops and outdated yet deadly weaponry on the front lines. Sarah provides a firsthand perspective on the grim reality of "slave labor" involving North Korean workers in Russia and the formidable obstacles faced by North Korean soldiers contemplating defection. This episode offers a comprehensive examination of the broader international stakes and the resilience required to confront such formidable adversities.
Beyond the battlefield, we navigate the intricate geopolitical landscape impacting Ukraine, from President Zelensky's views on former President Trump to the implications of the Israel-Hamas conflict. With Sarah's insights, we explore the waning American attention on Ukraine amid other global crises and the vital importance of sustained U.S. support. As Sarah shares her personal journey, you’ll gain a unique understanding of the identity challenges faced by a trans soldier living under the shadow of an international wanted list. Discover how she finds solace in music and the companionship of her dog, Rexa, while reflecting on the courage and resolve of the Ukrainian people amidst prolonged conflict.
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Speaker 1 (00:11):
You are listening to Ukraine 242.
We bring you interview subjectsfrom all walks of life in
wartime in Ukraine.
Thanks to all our listenersaround the world.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Thanks to all our listeners around the world.
Welcome to Ukraine 242, aweekly program featuring
interviews with experts and keypeople on the ground in Ukraine
and around the world, respondingto events and issues since the
Russian invasion of Ukraine.
(00:45):
I am Anne Levine, reportingfrom WOMR in Provincetown,
massachusetts.
Today, our guest is SarahAshton Cirillo.
She was an American journalistwho enlisted as a combat medic
(01:08):
in the armed forces of Ukraineand previously worked as a war
correspondent, primarily forLGBTQ Nation.
A trans woman, she is the onlyAmerican woman known to be
fighting at Zero Line, the front, most trenches of the war.
Still fighting for the UkraineArmed Forces and now a sergeant.
Sarah Ashton Cirillo talks tous about North Korea, the
(01:32):
American election and living asa trans soldier in Kyiv.
Sarah, welcome to Ukraine 242.
The last time you and I spoke,you were working in Kyiv as an
analyst and a media liaison andyou were also doing some work at
(01:54):
the front.
Can you give us an idea of whatyou are doing now?
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Sure, I'm still focused in a heavy way of
analytics with the foreigncomponents of the war.
I'm now looking at the war froma more global perspective, and
I think that's the best way Ican put it.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Could you tell me about the overall current state
of the war?
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Of course, and I think it's the only way we can
start.
It's no secret that things area struggle every day, and Russia
, unfortunately, has more men,more weapons, but they don't
have greater leadership, theydon't have greater will and
(02:41):
ultimately, they are going toend up as the losing side of
this war.
It's just a question of howmuch of their resources do
coming into Russia to fightUkrainians.
Is that true?
Yeah, absolutely.
(03:26):
So we had been tracking NorthKorean ammo coming in since the
beginning of 2024.
They fired their first rocketthat we were able to recognize
as a North Korean rocket intoKharkiv in December of 2023.
They also sent over laborers towork in what I've referenced as
slave labor roles in mid tolate 2023.
So the connection between Russiaand North Korea has been there
for some time, during thefull-scale invasion, and this is
just the next naturalprogression.
(03:46):
So when word began to streamout that, hey, something
happened between Putin and KimJong-un in the summer of 2024,
we recognized that it was justthe next step in the
relationship between these twodictatorial and terroristic
states, and what that next stephad been the sending of North
Korean troops into Russia tofight on the side of the Russian
(04:09):
Federation in their genocidalwar against the Ukrainian people
.
And so, yes, it is true.
Currently there's around 10,000North Korean troops throughout
the areas of what I would callnear the front lines.
We expect them to startengaging in full battle anytime
in the next weeks, and thereality is, whoever is wearing a
uniform that is supporting theRussian Federation will receive
(04:32):
the same outcome.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
You refer to the North Koreans as slave laborer.
Could you describe what youmean by?
Speaker 1 (04:39):
that?
Yes, absolutely.
There's two different types ofNorth Koreans that had come over
into the Russian Federation Inmid-23 to late-23,.
It was laborers who were takingthe roles of Russians, who were
being sent into the war, andthese people were not getting
paid, and the North Koreanregime was the recipients of
(05:02):
what we would know as theirwages, hence the term slave
labor.
The North Korean soldiersslightly different.
Obviously, they are carryingout something more skillful,
because they are not justdigging ditches, but they too
are not receiving the same wagesthat the soldiers of the
Russian Federation would bereceiving because, again, putin
is paying the North Koreanregime directly, as opposed to
(05:24):
paying these North Koreansoldiers.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Have any of the North Koreans fighting for Russia
tried to defect?
Speaker 1 (05:31):
There were rumors of that effect.
However, nothing had ever beenverified.
If I was a North Korean soldier, it would be on my mind the
Russian Federation operates withwhat we would call this sort of
second line or kill line oftroops.
Any defectors are most likelygoing to be shot by the Russian
Federation soldiers themselvesbefore they had a chance to
(05:52):
defect.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
What sort of weaponry is North Korea supplying?
Speaker 1 (05:56):
to Russia.
They are supplying asignificant amount of artillery
shells to the Russian Federationsince the full-scale invasion
began.
They have also produced andtransferred to Russia missiles.
And those would be the two keycomponents of what the weapon
systems are that they'reproviding.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
And are their weapons effective?
Are they out of date?
Speaker 1 (06:21):
I love that question because there's a lot of
confusion over that and I'm gladyou asked it.
And artillery shells that evenquote misfire or explode when
they aren't supposed to arestill deadly, and that's one of
the biggest problems.
Even if you have a dud ratio of30 or 40 percent, even 50
percent and they sent over six,seven hundred thousand shells,
(06:42):
and I believe that's even asmaller number than what they
have provided the RussianFederation, you're still talking
300,000, 400,000 shells thatare effective, and then, out of
those hundreds of thousands thatwould be considered duds, they
can still produce horrificoutcomes when they're fired,
because when a shell explodes,you still have the shrapnel.
Sometimes, when it happens toland in what would be considered
(07:05):
the wrong place, that couldstill have a devastating effect
on those who are in the areawhere that shell lands.
So I hate it when people say,oh, these shells have been
sitting there since the 60s orthe 70s.
No, they can still kill inMaine and their rockets and
their missiles are very modernand so those are effective.
And, as I said, the artilleryis still deadly A lot of times.
(07:32):
What happens with the mediacoverage of the Russia's
full-scale invasion is thatthings come out piece by piece
right.
However, now that we've been inthis for well over a thousand
days, if you look at thetotality of it, it has to be
alarming, because we have tolook at it in its totality, and
when we do so, we recognize justhow important North Korea is to
Russia's fortunes.
Despite all of its own internalproblems, North Korea has
(07:56):
provided Russia with the spaceand ability to continue their
operations.
They were able to allow Russiato not have to produce 600,000,
700,000 artillery shells, whichfrees up the Russian economy to
either produce other weapons ofdestruction or to put the money
into research and development ofsome of these tools of genocide
(08:18):
that they utilize against theUkrainians.
And so there can be no questionthat Russia and North Korea are
now intertwined and in this war, together.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Do you think this is opening a door to China
participating?
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Well, we know that China has allowed direct
movement of weapons from Chinesefactories to Russia.
Ultimately, I can't presumewhat Xi will do.
However, I know that Russiawill go to any length and work
with any group to continue thiswar of genocide against the
Ukrainian people.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Relatively recently, we heard about a barrage of
bombings of Kiev.
Would you talk about that Sure,sure.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
I'm based in Kyiv now with the Defense Forces and
I've seen the Shaheds, the 136drone produced by Iran,
occasionally produced now inRussia themselves.
So the Iranian drones flyaround.
We also understand that Russiahas no issue.
In day and night, 3, 4 am.
It's truly psychological terrorthat Russia is trying to
(09:31):
inflict and physical destructionof the capital.
To suggest that the war is nottaking place in Kiev is
absolutely foolhardy.
The war is taking place in Kiev, the war is taking place in
Sumy and the war is taking placeultimately around the globe,
due to the fact that the RussianFederation is an imperialistic,
colonialistic criminal cabalthat is attempting to reshape
(09:55):
the world order In Kyiv and inUkraine.
It happened in Syria.
It's happening in Africa, inLatin America.
It's happening in the UnitedStates itself through a soft
power manipulation by theRussian Federation targeted at
the American people.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
I'd like to hear you address the effects of the
American presidential election.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
So for your listeners , so they understand I'm a
registered Democrat.
I am relatively centrist, but Iput out a video on the first
day of the NATO summit.
It was the morning that theAkhmedet Children's Hospital was
hit.
I live within very closevicinity of the Akhmedet
Children's Hospital, so it washit and I said that Joe Biden
had blood on his hands.
The Biden administration andPresident Biden's national
(10:38):
security team have allowed thiswar to extend in a way that
should never have happened, andso when the election took place
and President Trump was electedto serve a second term, I can
say this we knew what we weregetting with President Biden,
and that was a slow, bloody warthat had no clear path to
(10:59):
victory for Ukraine and victoryfor the European partners who
are putting so much into thisWith President Trump and his
team.
There's been a lot ofspeculation, but I have some
hopes that there will be a clearand decisive move towards
supporting Ukraine in a way thatallows for a just peace and for
diplomatic victory, and victoryon the battlefield as well.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
What has Zelensky said about Trump being elected?
Speaker 1 (11:24):
You know, one of the key points I want to bring up
about President Zelensky andPresident Trump and I talked
about this in an interview in2023 with a conservative paper
President Zelensky neversuggested that President Trump
in any way extorted him,blackmailed him or anything to
do with that first impeachment,and I think it's key to
recognize that and I think thatallows for a way to move forward
(11:47):
between the two leaders thatthe mass media was missing, who
were suggesting that PresidentTrump is in some way out to get
President Zelensky.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
What about Trump and Putin, who have been seen in
rather friendly meetings?
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Yes, president Trump has clearly been more open to at
least communicating with thedictator Putin.
However, in the end, presidentTrump has a chance to oversee
the greatest rebuilding projectin modern history, at least
since the Marshall Plan, atleast since the rebuilding of
Europe and Japan after World WarII.
He has a chance to clearlydemarcate the greatness of the
(12:27):
United States in the face ofthis threat by the Russian
Federation and say what you willabout President Trump.
I have hope that PresidentTrump will recognize this moment
and understand that, for asmuch as he can communicate with
the dictator Putin or thedictator in North Korea or the
murderous Ayatollah in Iran, theUnited States is best served by
being able to continue to bethis global stalwart for freedom
(12:52):
and that he can lead the UnitedStates in that direction and
solidify that reputation for thenext generation.
And this is the moment, as manypeople said about President
Zelensky, that leaders can standup and be able to be talked
about for the next 200 years,500 years, etc.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
You mentioned Iran, Speaking of that part of the
world.
What effect, if any, isIsrael's war with Hamas and
Hezbollah having on what's goingon in Ukraine and Russia?
On?
Speaker 1 (13:24):
October 7, 2023,.
We understood that the world'sattention was going to change
overnight, and it did.
This new focus created asituation where we had to now
navigate a different world orderwhen it came to media coverage,
when it came to recognizingfunding issues.
But Iran backs Hezbollah, Iranbacks Hamas.
(13:48):
Iran also backs the RussianFederation.
So anything that Israel isdoing that is weakening Iran is
helpful to Ukraine.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Our guest is Sarah Ashton Cirillo, an American
journalist from Las Vegas,nevada, who is now a sergeant in
the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
I am Anne Levine from WOMR inProvincetown Massachusetts.
Thank you for joining us, sarah.
(14:22):
The American attention to thewar in Ukraine has waned
tremendously due to many thingsthat have overshadowed it.
What would you like to say toour listeners?
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Thank you for this opportunity, anne.
If we look at it and understand, the last 14 or 15 months, it
was overshadowed by issues suchas the war breaking out in
Israel, discussions over thesouthern border.
The American people have seeneconomic issues that have been
at the top of their mind.
The election's now settled.
We know, moving forward, thatit's a Republican House,
(14:59):
republican Senate and Republicanpresidency.
To me, what that means is wecan focus again on the things
that the United States needs todo in order to secure itself and
allow its influence to not wane.
Moving forward.
And what does that mean?
It means a victory for Ukraine,is a victory for the United
States across multiple fronts,and this is what I want the
(15:21):
listeners to hear.
It opens up an incredibly largeand well-positioned trading
partner with the Ukrainianpeople.
It also allows for the UnitedStates to wash away the stain of
Vietnam, to wash away the stainof Afghanistan, to wash away
the questions over Iraq.
To say, at the moment ofgreatest crisis and this global
(15:43):
war that has broken out, westepped up and we secured the
future of the people of theUnited States, in the sense of
national security, by standingwith the people of Ukraine.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
How is what has been the outstanding courage and
morale of the Ukrainian peopleand of the Ukrainian defense
forces?
Speaker 1 (16:04):
So there's been polls coming out that have shown some
people rightfully so aregetting tired.
We're at a thousand days oftrying to fight off a genocide,
a thousand days of full-scalewar, and, for some people who
have come from places like theDonbass which is Donetsk and
Luhansk or spent time in theeast, they've been in war for 10
(16:26):
straight years fighting off theRussians, so of course they're
tired.
The East They've been in warfor 10 straight years fighting
off the Russians, so of coursethey're tired.
One thing I can know, though,is that the Ukrainian people
have a resolve that is almostunrecognized in this world of
24-hour news cycles and 15minutes of fame.
They are going about theirbusiness.
My brothers and sisters in thedefense forces are still holding
the line at the front.
(16:46):
Yes, we see reports of loss ofterritory, but, compared to
where it could be, it's been aphenomenal effort by all of us
in the defense forces to protectthe Ukrainian people, and the
Ukrainian civilians and civilsociety understand that
sacrifice is to continue, and ifthe Ukrainian people ever gave
in, the world would find itselfin darkness, just like in 1939,
(17:08):
1941, 1944, 1945, until victoryhappened, and that's why we can
be so proud as Americans and soproud of our partners across the
globe, in Europe and in otherareas, especially in Japan and
the Pacific, that are supportingUkrainian people, because that
(17:29):
support is allowing those whoare in Ukraine to continue to
hold the line.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
What has happened with the promises and agreements
that were made with severalWestern governments about
delivering fighter jets toUkraine.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
When it comes to the jets and other equipment.
There's no way to get around it.
What's been promised and what'sbeen delivered across multiple
countries has just not matchedup.
I can't speculate as to why.
Despite this, we understandthat the people of the United
Kingdom, obviously the people ofthe European Union, continue to
stand with Ukraine, and all wecan do is continue to press for
(18:11):
these nations to come throughwith what they have stated they
would, because the faster thathappens, the faster we can end
this war in a way that is fair,right and just and most
beneficial to all of ourpartners.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Sarah, the last time you and I spoke, you told me an
incredibly touching story aboutsitting on, I believe, the shore
of Odessa, right at the BlackSea, having something of an
epiphany about your faith.
Yes, can you tell me where youare with all of that now?
Speaker 1 (18:45):
So, for your listeners, I'm transgender and
when I came to Ukraine I hadtransitioned.
I was presenting as a femaleand I was on the shoreline in
Odessa just over a year ago,october of 23.
I had already served at thefront, I'd already been injured,
been back and forth to thefront and I was watching an
attack on Odessa which was justdevastating, devastating attack
for hours on end and I realizedthat the war is so much larger
(19:10):
than just an individual and inthat moment I recognize the
fleeting nature of life.
For me, it was just strippingeverything down to its most
basic elements, which is, if I'mbreathing and I can see and I
can hear and I have all mysenses and I have all my limbs,
nothing else matters.
All my senses and I have all mylimbs, nothing else matters.
(19:31):
Since that time 80, 90% of thattime I've presented as a guy and
it's a very unique situationonly in the sense that publicly
I'm still female, my documentsare all female, but for me it
really became a situation wheremy only focus was victory,
because when you're livingmoment to moment fighting off a
genocide of an entire nation,you sort of become disconnected
(19:52):
from this idea of fight overbathroom, not that it's not
incredibly important to thosepeople who are truly effective,
and I appreciate it, but $50barrel of oil for Russia is more
important to me than bathroom,because if we're not able to
stop Russia, to stop Iran, tostop North Korea, there's going
to be a dictatorship that'sgoing to result in either
genocidal actions or horrificoutcomes for the vast majority
(20:16):
of people across this globe.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
I know that you have been plagued on social media by
trolls for lack of a better termabout being a trans person.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
I don't even think about the trolls anymore,
because the Russian Ministry ofInterior placed me on an
international wanted list.
And so when you know that yourlife is now flipped upside down
because you can't go to certaincountries anymore, because the
Russians literally have you on awanted list on charges God
knows what they are that putseverything in perspective.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
The Russians call you a terrorist.
What does that?
Speaker 1 (20:48):
mean.
Who knows what they mean, Idon't know.
One thing that's funny, though,is that on their quote wanted
list, it has me as a female.
So, after all that time makingfun of me for being trans, they
have me listed as a female, andso I found that a little bit
ironic.
That's actually very funny,exactly Like I finally got them
to accept that.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
I assume that you're still presenting as a man since
we last spoke.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
About 85% of the time I present as a guy, and when I
have to travel or there might beother tasks or assignments, I
will appear as a female, becauseall my documents are, and so I
take all my female hormones allthe time.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
When you travel, say, to the United States, do you do
anything to present more asfemale?
Do you wear a wig?
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Do you use I keep a very close crop military haircut
now, but my curves are stillthere.
Obviously, my voice inflectioncan be very naturally female and
it can stay in that extendedvocal range for weeks and months
.
So, yes, I actually present asjust an average 47-year-old
(21:56):
female, you know.
And so when I go back to theStates or I travel or I travel
inside of Europe, I travel as afemale and there's no issues to
it.
So it truly is me being able topresent both as a male or
female.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
How are you doing?
How do you feel in general?
Speaker 1 (22:12):
No, anne, I've known you for a couple of years now
and what I'll say is after athousand days of war for me here
, yeah, I've changed.
I'm a much more private personnow.
I don't socialize nearly asmuch as I used to, for a variety
of reasons.
A lot of it has to do with mywork being very specific and
very specialized and verysensitive, but also because,
(22:32):
simply put, sometimes after athousand days of war, you just
want to do your job and just geton to the next day.
As I always say, the only goalis to see the sunrise.
I became very famous here, asyou know, which I don't mind,
and it allowed for a lot ofopportunities for the defense
forces and for Ukraine as awhole.
I took a lot of controversy,which I was well-suited to take,
and now, simply put, I justwant to win this war, and
(22:57):
winning this war takes a lot ofmental and emotional bandwidth,
and so I have a very closedcircle of contacts.
It's a different existence thaneven when I talked to you in
March, and a wholly differentexistence than what I was living
in 2022 and 2023.
And I don't mind it at all.
You know, everybody goesthrough different challenges and
different journeys and that'swhere I am right now in life.
(23:19):
I think I would feel morelonely if it wasn't my choice to
to sort of have become moreintrospective and spend a lot
more time alone.
But I feel love here, like Ilive around people, so I'm not
some hermit, so I just sort ofdo my thing.
I go out and I walk my dog and Ilive in a very specialized
military district but close tothe city center.
(23:41):
When I say specialized, I meanthere's a lot of military there.
I'm still very close with a lotof international journalists,
so when they come into town Iopen up a little bit more.
But for the most part again,one of the key issues is that
it's an isolated kind of workbecause of the information that
I deal with, and so it's justeasier to sort of do my thing
and walk my dog.
What's your dog's name?
(24:02):
Rexa, she comes from thevillage that, if you remember
when the dam was destroyed,novokolka yes, my Comes from the
village.
That, if you remember when thedam was destroyed, novokolka,
yes, my dog from Novokolka, andI love her.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Well, she must be a tremendous comfort.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Absolutely no-transcript.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Well, here comes the question that you know is coming
what song would you like us toplay?
Speaker 1 (24:25):
You know, I was thinking of home.
When I say home, everybodythinks Las Vegas, which is true,
but I grew up in rural Florida.
And so there's this song calledFlorida Days by Jimmy Buffett,
and it talks about watchingairplanes take off and some
people are dreamers, right.
And it also talks about how onenight in Beirut was like a
lifetime.
(24:46):
Jimmy Buffett saying that.
And I've never been to Beirut,but I sure as hell have lived
through war.
But when I listened to thatline now he talked about one
night in Beirut under fire beinga lifetime.
And now I've been in Ukraine for996 days and I'll be very
personal.
I was telling my partner I missthe Florida twamps.
I had a hobby I would takepictures of gators and snakes
(25:07):
and I grew up around gators andI used to think, like dealing
with the gators was a big deal.
I can't wait to go back todealing with the gators Now, the
idea of the solitude of it, ofnot having to hear the noise and
not having to worry aboutdrones, when all you're worrying
about is to dealing with thegators.
But there you go.
So you asked about a song was onmy mind Florida Days by Jimmy
(25:28):
Buffett.
But I'll be ready to go home,whatever home is, after we win,
because, as a United Statescitizen, I love our country so
much and I understand that tolove our country means to win
the war at whatever it takes.
And then we'll sort out therest later about gender and
swamps and everything else.
I'm just glad that you've beenon this journey with us, anne,
and always glad to be on yourshow.
(25:48):
I know you guys get the messageout to people who care about
Ukraine and we're just gratefulfor journalists that still
understand that what we're doinghere matters.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Well, it is my true pleasure.
I'm so grateful that you sharewith us.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Well, thank you, anne .
Please give a big virtual kissand a hug to our beautiful,
beautiful country for me.
Have a great evening, thank youand you too.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Okay, bye-bye.
Our thanks to SarahAshton-Sarolo.
I am Anne Levine, host of thisweek's Ukraine 242, reporting
from WOMR-WFMR in Provincetown,massachusetts, and Orleans,
(26:36):
massachusetts, music FloridaDays by Jimmy Buffett, editing
Ursula Rudenberg, recordingMichael Levine.
Sarah's Twitter is at SarahAshton LV.
That's at Sarah Ashton LV.
(26:57):
Thank you for joining us.
Until next week on Ukraine 242.
Each other's lives away.
Bloody winds on a distant day.
They're looking for a betterday, looking to the left,
(27:32):
looking to the right.
Looking to the stars to shedsome light, hoping for a breath,
hoping for a breath, hoping fora break, hoping for the give
without the take.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
The dreamers line the state road just to watch the
runway show.
Slouch behind their steeringwheels, they just watch the big
jets go Streaking through themorning haze focal point of a
distant gaze, looking for thegang of bays.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
We'll be right back Hail invaders and tan crusaders.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Worshipping the sun.
You are listening to Ukraine 242.
We bring you interview subjectsfrom all walks of life in
wartime in Ukraine.
Thanks to all our listenersaround the world.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Thanks to all our listeners around the world.
Welcome to Ukraine 242, aweekly program featuring
interviews with experts and keypeople on the ground in Ukraine
and around the world, respondingto events and issues since the
Russian invasion of Ukraine.
(00:45):
I am Anne Levine, reportingfrom WOMR in Provincetown,
massachusetts.
Today, our guest is SarahAshton Cirillo.
She was an American journalistwho enlisted as a combat medic
(01:08):
in the armed forces of Ukraineand previously worked as a war
correspondent, primarily forLGBTQ Nation.
A trans woman, she is the onlyAmerican woman known to be
fighting at Zero Line, the front, most trenches of the war.
Still fighting for the UkraineArmed Forces and now a sergeant.
Sarah Ashton Cirillo talks tous about North Korea, the
(01:32):
American election and living asa trans soldier in Kyiv.
Sarah, welcome to Ukraine 242.
The last time you and I spoke,you were working in Kyiv as an
analyst and a media liaison andyou were also doing some work at
(01:54):
the front.
Can you give us an idea of whatyou are doing now?
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Sure, I'm still focused in a heavy way of
analytics with the foreigncomponents of the war.
I'm now looking at the war froma more global perspective, and
I think that's the best way Ican put it.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Could you tell me about the overall current state
of the war?
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Of course, and I think it's the only way we can
start.
It's no secret that things area struggle every day, and Russia
, unfortunately, has more men,more weapons, but they don't
have greater leadership, theydon't have greater will and
(02:41):
ultimately, they are going toend up as the losing side of
this war.
It's just a question of howmuch of their resources do
coming into Russia to fightUkrainians.
Is that true?
Yeah, absolutely.
(03:26):
So we had been tracking NorthKorean ammo coming in since the
beginning of 2024.
They fired their first rocketthat we were able to recognize
as a North Korean rocket intoKharkiv in December of 2023.
They also sent over laborers towork in what I've referenced as
slave labor roles in mid tolate 2023.
So the connection between Russiaand North Korea has been there
for some time, during thefull-scale invasion, and this is
just the next naturalprogression.
(03:46):
So when word began to streamout that, hey, something
happened between Putin and KimJong-un in the summer of 2024,
we recognized that it was justthe next step in the
relationship between these twodictatorial and terroristic
states, and what that next stephad been the sending of North
Korean troops into Russia tofight on the side of the Russian
(04:09):
Federation in their genocidalwar against the Ukrainian people
.
And so, yes, it is true.
Currently there's around 10,000North Korean troops throughout
the areas of what I would callnear the front lines.
We expect them to startengaging in full battle anytime
in the next weeks, and thereality is, whoever is wearing a
uniform that is supporting theRussian Federation will receive
(04:32):
the same outcome.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
You refer to the North Koreans as slave laborer.
Could you describe what youmean by?
Speaker 1 (04:39):
that?
Yes, absolutely.
There's two different types ofNorth Koreans that had come over
into the Russian Federation Inmid-23 to late-23,.
It was laborers who were takingthe roles of Russians, who were
being sent into the war, andthese people were not getting
paid, and the North Koreanregime was the recipients of
(05:02):
what we would know as theirwages, hence the term slave
labor.
The North Korean soldiersslightly different.
Obviously, they are carryingout something more skillful,
because they are not justdigging ditches, but they too
are not receiving the same wagesthat the soldiers of the
Russian Federation would bereceiving because, again, putin
is paying the North Koreanregime directly, as opposed to
(05:24):
paying these North Koreansoldiers.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Have any of the North Koreans fighting for Russia
tried to defect?
Speaker 1 (05:31):
There were rumors of that effect.
However, nothing had ever beenverified.
If I was a North Korean soldier, it would be on my mind the
Russian Federation operates withwhat we would call this sort of
second line or kill line oftroops.
Any defectors are most likelygoing to be shot by the Russian
Federation soldiers themselvesbefore they had a chance to
(05:52):
defect.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
What sort of weaponry is North Korea supplying?
Speaker 1 (05:56):
to Russia.
They are supplying asignificant amount of artillery
shells to the Russian Federationsince the full-scale invasion
began.
They have also produced andtransferred to Russia missiles.
And those would be the two keycomponents of what the weapon
systems are that they'reproviding.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
And are their weapons effective?
Are they out of date?
Speaker 1 (06:21):
I love that question because there's a lot of
confusion over that and I'm gladyou asked it.
And artillery shells that evenquote misfire or explode when
they aren't supposed to arestill deadly, and that's one of
the biggest problems.
Even if you have a dud ratio of30 or 40 percent, even 50
percent and they sent over six,seven hundred thousand shells,
(06:42):
and I believe that's even asmaller number than what they
have provided the RussianFederation, you're still talking
300,000, 400,000 shells thatare effective, and then, out of
those hundreds of thousands thatwould be considered duds, they
can still produce horrificoutcomes when they're fired,
because when a shell explodes,you still have the shrapnel.
Sometimes, when it happens toland in what would be considered
(07:05):
the wrong place, that couldstill have a devastating effect
on those who are in the areawhere that shell lands.
So I hate it when people say,oh, these shells have been
sitting there since the 60s orthe 70s.
No, they can still kill inMaine and their rockets and
their missiles are very modernand so those are effective.
And, as I said, the artilleryis still deadly A lot of times.
(07:32):
What happens with the mediacoverage of the Russia's
full-scale invasion is thatthings come out piece by piece
right.
However, now that we've been inthis for well over a thousand
days, if you look at thetotality of it, it has to be
alarming, because we have tolook at it in its totality, and
when we do so, we recognize justhow important North Korea is to
Russia's fortunes.
Despite all of its own internalproblems, North Korea has
(07:56):
provided Russia with the spaceand ability to continue their
operations.
They were able to allow Russiato not have to produce 600,000,
700,000 artillery shells, whichfrees up the Russian economy to
either produce other weapons ofdestruction or to put the money
into research and development ofsome of these tools of genocide
(08:18):
that they utilize against theUkrainians.
And so there can be no questionthat Russia and North Korea are
now intertwined and in this war, together.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Do you think this is opening a door to China
participating?
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Well, we know that China has allowed direct
movement of weapons from Chinesefactories to Russia.
Ultimately, I can't presumewhat Xi will do.
However, I know that Russiawill go to any length and work
with any group to continue thiswar of genocide against the
Ukrainian people.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Relatively recently, we heard about a barrage of
bombings of Kiev.
Would you talk about that Sure,sure.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
I'm based in Kyiv now with the Defense Forces and
I've seen the Shaheds, the 136drone produced by Iran,
occasionally produced now inRussia themselves.
So the Iranian drones flyaround.
We also understand that Russiahas no issue.
In day and night, 3, 4 am.
It's truly psychological terrorthat Russia is trying to
(09:31):
inflict and physical destructionof the capital.
To suggest that the war is nottaking place in Kiev is
absolutely foolhardy.
The war is taking place in Kiev, the war is taking place in
Sumy and the war is taking placeultimately around the globe,
due to the fact that the RussianFederation is an imperialistic,
colonialistic criminal cabalthat is attempting to reshape
(09:55):
the world order In Kyiv and inUkraine.
It happened in Syria.
It's happening in Africa, inLatin America.
It's happening in the UnitedStates itself through a soft
power manipulation by theRussian Federation targeted at
the American people.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
I'd like to hear you address the effects of the
American presidential election.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
So for your listeners , so they understand I'm a
registered Democrat.
I am relatively centrist, but Iput out a video on the first
day of the NATO summit.
It was the morning that theAkhmedet Children's Hospital was
hit.
I live within very closevicinity of the Akhmedet
Children's Hospital, so it washit and I said that Joe Biden
had blood on his hands.
The Biden administration andPresident Biden's national
(10:38):
security team have allowed thiswar to extend in a way that
should never have happened, andso when the election took place
and President Trump was electedto serve a second term, I can
say this we knew what we weregetting with President Biden,
and that was a slow, bloody warthat had no clear path to
(10:59):
victory for Ukraine and victoryfor the European partners who
are putting so much into thisWith President Trump and his
team.
There's been a lot ofspeculation, but I have some
hopes that there will be a clearand decisive move towards
supporting Ukraine in a way thatallows for a just peace and for
diplomatic victory, and victoryon the battlefield as well.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
What has Zelensky said about Trump being elected?
Speaker 1 (11:24):
You know, one of the key points I want to bring up
about President Zelensky andPresident Trump and I talked
about this in an interview in2023 with a conservative paper
President Zelensky neversuggested that President Trump
in any way extorted him,blackmailed him or anything to
do with that first impeachment,and I think it's key to
recognize that and I think thatallows for a way to move forward
(11:47):
between the two leaders thatthe mass media was missing, who
were suggesting that PresidentTrump is in some way out to get
President Zelensky.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
What about Trump and Putin, who have been seen in
rather friendly meetings?
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Yes, president Trump has clearly been more open to at
least communicating with thedictator Putin.
However, in the end, presidentTrump has a chance to oversee
the greatest rebuilding projectin modern history, at least
since the Marshall Plan, atleast since the rebuilding of
Europe and Japan after World WarII.
He has a chance to clearlydemarcate the greatness of the
(12:27):
United States in the face ofthis threat by the Russian
Federation and say what you willabout President Trump.
I have hope that PresidentTrump will recognize this moment
and understand that, for asmuch as he can communicate with
the dictator Putin or thedictator in North Korea or the
murderous Ayatollah in Iran, theUnited States is best served by
being able to continue to bethis global stalwart for freedom
(12:52):
and that he can lead the UnitedStates in that direction and
solidify that reputation for thenext generation.
And this is the moment, as manypeople said about President
Zelensky, that leaders can standup and be able to be talked
about for the next 200 years,500 years, etc.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
You mentioned Iran, Speaking of that part of the
world.
What effect, if any, isIsrael's war with Hamas and
Hezbollah having on what's goingon in Ukraine and Russia?
On?
Speaker 1 (13:24):
October 7, 2023,.
We understood that the world'sattention was going to change
overnight, and it did.
This new focus created asituation where we had to now
navigate a different world orderwhen it came to media coverage,
when it came to recognizingfunding issues.
But Iran backs Hezbollah, Iranbacks Hamas.
(13:48):
Iran also backs the RussianFederation.
So anything that Israel isdoing that is weakening Iran is
helpful to Ukraine.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Our guest is Sarah Ashton Cirillo, an American
journalist from Las Vegas,nevada, who is now a sergeant in
the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
I am Anne Levine from WOMR inProvincetown Massachusetts.
Thank you for joining us, sarah.
(14:22):
The American attention to thewar in Ukraine has waned
tremendously due to many thingsthat have overshadowed it.
What would you like to say toour listeners?
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Thank you for this opportunity, anne.
If we look at it and understand, the last 14 or 15 months, it
was overshadowed by issues suchas the war breaking out in
Israel, discussions over thesouthern border.
The American people have seeneconomic issues that have been
at the top of their mind.
The election's now settled.
We know, moving forward, thatit's a Republican House,
(14:59):
republican Senate and Republicanpresidency.
To me, what that means is wecan focus again on the things
that the United States needs todo in order to secure itself and
allow its influence to not wane.
Moving forward.
And what does that mean?
It means a victory for Ukraine,is a victory for the United
States across multiple fronts,and this is what I want the
(15:21):
listeners to hear.
It opens up an incredibly largeand well-positioned trading
partner with the Ukrainianpeople.
It also allows for the UnitedStates to wash away the stain of
Vietnam, to wash away the stainof Afghanistan, to wash away
the questions over Iraq.
To say, at the moment ofgreatest crisis and this global
(15:43):
war that has broken out, westepped up and we secured the
future of the people of theUnited States, in the sense of
national security, by standingwith the people of Ukraine.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
How is what has been the outstanding courage and
morale of the Ukrainian peopleand of the Ukrainian defense
forces?
Speaker 1 (16:04):
So there's been polls coming out that have shown some
people rightfully so aregetting tired.
We're at a thousand days oftrying to fight off a genocide,
a thousand days of full-scalewar, and, for some people who
have come from places like theDonbass which is Donetsk and
Luhansk or spent time in theeast, they've been in war for 10
(16:26):
straight years fighting off theRussians, so of course they're
tired.
The East They've been in warfor 10 straight years fighting
off the Russians, so of coursethey're tired.
One thing I can know, though,is that the Ukrainian people
have a resolve that is almostunrecognized in this world of
24-hour news cycles and 15minutes of fame.
They are going about theirbusiness.
My brothers and sisters in thedefense forces are still holding
the line at the front.
(16:46):
Yes, we see reports of loss ofterritory, but, compared to
where it could be, it's been aphenomenal effort by all of us
in the defense forces to protectthe Ukrainian people, and the
Ukrainian civilians and civilsociety understand that
sacrifice is to continue, and ifthe Ukrainian people ever gave
in, the world would find itselfin darkness, just like in 1939,
(17:08):
1941, 1944, 1945, until victoryhappened, and that's why we can
be so proud as Americans and soproud of our partners across the
globe, in Europe and in otherareas, especially in Japan and
the Pacific, that are supportingUkrainian people, because that
(17:29):
support is allowing those whoare in Ukraine to continue to
hold the line.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
What has happened with the promises and agreements
that were made with severalWestern governments about
delivering fighter jets toUkraine.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
When it comes to the jets and other equipment.
There's no way to get around it.
What's been promised and what'sbeen delivered across multiple
countries has just not matchedup.
I can't speculate as to why.
Despite this, we understandthat the people of the United
Kingdom, obviously the people ofthe European Union, continue to
stand with Ukraine, and all wecan do is continue to press for
(18:11):
these nations to come throughwith what they have stated they
would, because the faster thathappens, the faster we can end
this war in a way that is fair,right and just and most
beneficial to all of ourpartners.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Sarah, the last time you and I spoke, you told me an
incredibly touching story aboutsitting on, I believe, the shore
of Odessa, right at the BlackSea, having something of an
epiphany about your faith.
Yes, can you tell me where youare with all of that now?
Speaker 1 (18:45):
So, for your listeners, I'm transgender and
when I came to Ukraine I hadtransitioned.
I was presenting as a femaleand I was on the shoreline in
Odessa just over a year ago,october of 23.
I had already served at thefront, I'd already been injured,
been back and forth to thefront and I was watching an
attack on Odessa which was justdevastating, devastating attack
for hours on end and I realizedthat the war is so much larger
(19:10):
than just an individual and inthat moment I recognize the
fleeting nature of life.
For me, it was just strippingeverything down to its most
basic elements, which is, if I'mbreathing and I can see and I
can hear and I have all mysenses and I have all my limbs,
nothing else matters.
All my senses and I have all mylimbs, nothing else matters.
(19:31):
Since that time 80, 90% of thattime I've presented as a guy and
it's a very unique situationonly in the sense that publicly
I'm still female, my documentsare all female, but for me it
really became a situation wheremy only focus was victory,
because when you're livingmoment to moment fighting off a
genocide of an entire nation,you sort of become disconnected
(19:52):
from this idea of fight overbathroom, not that it's not
incredibly important to thosepeople who are truly effective,
and I appreciate it, but $50barrel of oil for Russia is more
important to me than bathroom,because if we're not able to
stop Russia, to stop Iran, tostop North Korea, there's going
to be a dictatorship that'sgoing to result in either
genocidal actions or horrificoutcomes for the vast majority
(20:16):
of people across this globe.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
I know that you have been plagued on social media by
trolls for lack of a better termabout being a trans person.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
I don't even think about the trolls anymore,
because the Russian Ministry ofInterior placed me on an
international wanted list.
And so when you know that yourlife is now flipped upside down
because you can't go to certaincountries anymore, because the
Russians literally have you on awanted list on charges God
knows what they are that putseverything in perspective.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
The Russians call you a terrorist.
What does that?
Speaker 1 (20:48):
mean.
Who knows what they mean, Idon't know.
One thing that's funny, though,is that on their quote wanted
list, it has me as a female.
So, after all that time makingfun of me for being trans, they
have me listed as a female, andso I found that a little bit
ironic.
That's actually very funny,exactly Like I finally got them
to accept that.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
I assume that you're still presenting as a man since
we last spoke.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
About 85% of the time I present as a guy, and when I
have to travel or there might beother tasks or assignments, I
will appear as a female, becauseall my documents are, and so I
take all my female hormones allthe time.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
When you travel, say, to the United States, do you do
anything to present more asfemale?
Do you wear a wig?
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Do you use I keep a very close crop military haircut
now, but my curves are stillthere.
Obviously, my voice inflectioncan be very naturally female and
it can stay in that extendedvocal range for weeks and months
.
So, yes, I actually present asjust an average 47-year-old
(21:56):
female, you know.
And so when I go back to theStates or I travel or I travel
inside of Europe, I travel as afemale and there's no issues to
it.
So it truly is me being able topresent both as a male or
female.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
How are you doing?
How do you feel in general?
Speaker 1 (22:12):
No, anne, I've known you for a couple of years now
and what I'll say is after athousand days of war for me here
, yeah, I've changed.
I'm a much more private personnow.
I don't socialize nearly asmuch as I used to, for a variety
of reasons.
A lot of it has to do with mywork being very specific and
very specialized and verysensitive, but also because,
(22:32):
simply put, sometimes after athousand days of war, you just
want to do your job and just geton to the next day.
As I always say, the only goalis to see the sunrise.
I became very famous here, asyou know, which I don't mind,
and it allowed for a lot ofopportunities for the defense
forces and for Ukraine as awhole.
I took a lot of controversy,which I was well-suited to take,
and now, simply put, I justwant to win this war, and
(22:57):
winning this war takes a lot ofmental and emotional bandwidth,
and so I have a very closedcircle of contacts.
It's a different existence thaneven when I talked to you in
March, and a wholly differentexistence than what I was living
in 2022 and 2023.
And I don't mind it at all.
You know, everybody goesthrough different challenges and
different journeys and that'swhere I am right now in life.
(23:19):
I think I would feel morelonely if it wasn't my choice to
to sort of have become moreintrospective and spend a lot
more time alone.
But I feel love here, like Ilive around people, so I'm not
some hermit, so I just sort ofdo my thing.
I go out and I walk my dog and Ilive in a very specialized
military district but close tothe city center.
(23:41):
When I say specialized, I meanthere's a lot of military there.
I'm still very close with a lotof international journalists,
so when they come into town Iopen up a little bit more.
But for the most part again,one of the key issues is that
it's an isolated kind of workbecause of the information that
I deal with, and so it's justeasier to sort of do my thing
and walk my dog.
What's your dog's name?
(24:02):
Rexa, she comes from thevillage that, if you remember
when the dam was destroyed,novokolka yes, my Comes from the
village.
That, if you remember when thedam was destroyed, novokolka,
yes, my dog from Novokolka, andI love her.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Well, she must be a tremendous comfort.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Absolutely no-transcript.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Well, here comes the question that you know is coming
what song would you like us toplay?
Speaker 1 (24:25):
You know, I was thinking of home.
When I say home, everybodythinks Las Vegas, which is true,
but I grew up in rural Florida.
And so there's this song calledFlorida Days by Jimmy Buffett,
and it talks about watchingairplanes take off and some
people are dreamers, right.
And it also talks about how onenight in Beirut was like a
lifetime.
(24:46):
Jimmy Buffett saying that.
And I've never been to Beirut,but I sure as hell have lived
through war.
But when I listened to thatline now he talked about one
night in Beirut under fire beinga lifetime.
And now I've been in Ukraine for996 days and I'll be very
personal.
I was telling my partner I missthe Florida twamps.
I had a hobby I would takepictures of gators and snakes
(25:07):
and I grew up around gators andI used to think, like dealing
with the gators was a big deal.
I can't wait to go back todealing with the gators Now, the
idea of the solitude of it, ofnot having to hear the noise and
not having to worry aboutdrones, when all you're worrying
about is to dealing with thegators.
But there you go.
So you asked about a song was onmy mind Florida Days by Jimmy
(25:28):
Buffett.
But I'll be ready to go home,whatever home is, after we win,
because, as a United Statescitizen, I love our country so
much and I understand that tolove our country means to win
the war at whatever it takes.
And then we'll sort out therest later about gender and
swamps and everything else.
I'm just glad that you've beenon this journey with us, anne,
and always glad to be on yourshow.
(25:48):
I know you guys get the messageout to people who care about
Ukraine and we're just gratefulfor journalists that still
understand that what we're doinghere matters.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Well, it is my true pleasure.
I'm so grateful that you sharewith us.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Well, thank you, anne .
Please give a big virtual kissand a hug to our beautiful,
beautiful country for me.
Have a great evening, thank youand you too.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Okay, bye-bye.
Our thanks to SarahAshton-Sarolo.
I am Anne Levine, host of thisweek's Ukraine 242, reporting
from WOMR-WFMR in Provincetown,massachusetts, and Orleans,
(26:36):
massachusetts, music FloridaDays by Jimmy Buffett, editing
Ursula Rudenberg, recordingMichael Levine.
Sarah's Twitter is at SarahAshton LV.
That's at Sarah Ashton LV.
(26:57):
Thank you for joining us.
Until next week on Ukraine 242.
Each other's lives away.
Bloody winds on a distant day.
They're looking for a betterday, looking to the left,
(27:32):
looking to the right.
Looking to the stars to shedsome light, hoping for a breath,
hoping for a breath, hoping fora break, hoping for the give
without the take.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
The dreamers line the state road just to watch the
runway show.
Slouch behind their steeringwheels, they just watch the big
jets go Streaking through themorning haze focal point of a
distant gaze, looking for thegang of bays.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
We'll be right back Hail invaders and tan crusaders.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Worshipping the sun.
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