November 2, 2025 • 36 mins
Today Elle flies solo, interviewing the incredible CeCe. A hotwife with some very sexy and entertaining stories.
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Episode Transcript
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Elle (00:05):
Welcome back to the Unapologetic Swingers.
I'm Elle Tramp is sleeping in,and I'm sneaking in a bonus
episode today.
I have my good friend Cece intown.
She lives in the PacificNorthwest and is staying with us
on a layover to get back home,and I'm excited to have her here
to tell us her story, how shegot in the lifestyle and where
(00:25):
her journey has taken her.
We met Cece and her husband Bena few years ago when they were
here visiting the ranch, and weall hit it off right away and
we've maintained thatrelationship and are looking.
To take a few fun girls tripstogether soon.
So welcome Cece.
I am so glad that you're herewith me this morning.
CiCi (00:45):
Me too.
And it's so great to see you.
Elle (00:47):
Oh, yay.
We've trying to do this and gettogether for I know, like a
couple of years.
That's true.
This is
CiCi (00:53):
true.
Yeah.
And you have a beautiful homeand so thank you so much for
welcoming me.
Thank you.
Super fun.
I'm happy
Elle (00:59):
to come out and see yours.
CiCi (01:00):
Yes, yes, definitely.
Elle (01:02):
So, what I'd love to do to start off, just to get us going,
'cause I know we don't have anytrouble talking is to just ask
how you got in the lifestyle.
How long ago it was, was it withyou, was it with you and Ben?
And kind of where your journey'staken you?
CiCi (01:16):
Okay.
Well, it's kind of funny becauseI think about, what does it mean
to be in the lifestyle?
Does it really just mean nothaving a vanilla sex life?
Mm-hmm.
And if I think about it thatway, well, I had my first
threesome when I was maybe, hmm.
20.
Okay.
In college,
Elle (01:33):
was that with a, a guy or with a guy?
It was with
CiCi (01:36):
two of my friends.
It was with my girlfriend and aguy friend.
Okay.
We were, engineering studentstogether at university.
Oh, wow.
And I'm not even quite sure howit happened.
We were just at a party and wejust started making out and
decided to go back to my,apartment at the time.
Mm-hmm.
And we just had a threesome.
It just kinda happened and I'mstill friends.
Don't talk to him anymore, butI'm still friends with her.
(01:58):
Yeah.
She was actually the maid ofhonor in my wedding.
Oh, wow.
So we've been friends for a longtime, but yeah, that just
happened., Those kinds of thingskinda happened throughout my
life.
I know I just had sort of anormal life and, I was running
around having a good time as ayoung adult.
Sure.
And then every once in a while.
Get together with, more than onefriend at the same time.
So does that mean I waslifestyle?
(02:19):
I don't know.
Elle (02:19):
Maybe, I dunno.
I mean, again, we, we've talkedabout the definition and what
makes lifestyle before, right.
I think the general consensusis.
S do you feel you're, you werein the lifestyle that that was,
you know, I
CiCi (02:30):
didn't even know about that term.
I think that I've always beensexually open.
Mm-hmm.
I'm not one of those people thatgrew up in a really repressed
religious background.
My parents had like Playboy andpenthouse laying around.
I think I had my first orgasmwhen I was like 10.
Sure.
With the shower, massage orsomething like that.
So I'm like, oh, that was fun.
(02:51):
And so I just have been sort ofopenly sexual, kind of my whole
life.
Yeah.
And I think about it, was Inon-monogamous or was I, I
think, you know, our society.
You're socialized to want onepartner.
And so I definitely wanted tofind my true love and find my
person.
And I did have boyfriends, butif it wasn't part of society, I
would've been open if at thetime.
(03:12):
So I guess what I'd say is that,I feel like I'm.
An ENM person at my core.
That's just how I am.
Whether that's lifestyle orswinger or whatever, that's just
how I am.
And I think because of society,I.
Tried to be monogamous and, Idon't think it worked out well
for me.
So, I'm with my wonderfulhusband and he's my soulmate and
(03:34):
my partner in crime and my bestfriend, and he's like me.
So it's all great.
But yeah it was from, I thinkthe start.
Mm-hmm.
If I think about when we reallystarted like swinging.
I actually met him and I waswith somebody else, and he was
with somebody else.
So again, I was not monogamous,but it wasn't ethical and I'm
not proud of that.
But, I was young and stupid, butwe ended up together I think at
(03:56):
that time, the person that I waswith, I would tell.
About some of my experiences andsharing about myself, and then
he would immediately get upseteven if it was something that
happened before I met him.
And at that point, I decided,well.
I'm not sorry I did all thosethings.
I'm just sorry that I told him.
Elle (04:13):
It's, it's not a safe space.
It's not a safe
CiCi (04:15):
space.
So I kept a lot of myselfsecret.
Sure.
I didn't share everything.
So when I met my now husband, Idecided I would just be myself.
I would.
Just tell'em everything.
And I think we were dating and Iwent with a girlfriend to a club
med once, The same person that IOh, okay.
Yeah.
She was with, it was with her,with several other people, but
she and I seduced the sailinginstructor.
(04:36):
Oh, okay.
And had a threesome.
See that happening.
See that?
Yeah.
And then we came back and then Itold Ben about it and I fully.
Was expecting that he was gonnaget upset and break up with me,
but he didn't.
He was like, oh really?
Tell me more.
Tell me more.
I'm like, I go, huh.
So we've always been that way.
(04:57):
And we didn't know about thelifestyle.
We didn't know there wassomething called swinging.
So we would just live sort ofnormal vanilla lives.
But every once in a while wewould, get together with our
friends.
It wasn't usually anybody thatwe didn't know.
It was always.
People that we knew.
And but it wouldn't be all thetime.
It would be just like, oh, wegot together.
That was really fun.
There was a couple peopleeventually that we kind of got
(05:17):
together with regularly.
I sort of knew when we gottogether with certain people to
go out, we probably wind up,fucking, but it was not a
lifestyle thing.
And I think at one point, it washis birthday and we went to
Vegas.
He actually hired a sex worker.
This
Elle (05:33):
is not the first time we've had this story on really.
CiCi (05:38):
Well, he hired a sex worker.
He did it all for his birthday.
And, we did that and we actuallywent to a Cassidy party.
So we heard about Cassidy fromanother friend who told us all
about swinging and we joinedCassidy and we went to a Cassidy
party and we had a fantastictime and we thought this is
really fun.
So that's kind of what started,I would say, the traditional
lifestyle.
That's when I would considerthat we were actually lifestyle
(05:58):
before we were just sexuallyopen.
Elle (06:00):
Right, right.
Okay.
And so then it became a littlebit more organized because you
had the website and you Right,you had to make a profile
specifically.
Yeah.
Yes.
Profile.
And then you start talking topeople and you start looking at
other people.
Right.
Then you make dates.
Well,
CiCi (06:14):
you know, so we didn't really do any of that.
We didn't really go on dates, wejust went to events.
Elle (06:18):
Okay.
CiCi (06:18):
So there were some local events at the time I was living
in the Bay Area and, up, wewould look up whatever events
were happening through Cassidynormally.
And then once you go to someevents, you hear about other
ones, right?
And so we would go to those andthose were really fun, but we
really didn't connect withanybody there outside of the
event.
We would go there, we would havefun.
So, but that was kind of our funthing to do.
Probably not that often, likeonce every month or two,
(06:42):
something like that.
Not like all the time.
Mm-hmm.
But yeah, that's how we started.
Elle (06:45):
Okay.
When did you start making sometrips to Denver to go.
CiCi (06:49):
Oh, okay.
So that was much later.
Oh, okay.
So this was all happening.
I mean, I'm advanced in my age,so don't look it, this was
probably, when we were going toCassidy events, it was kind of a
long time ago, and then we endedup moving, to the Pacific
Northwest.
Okay.
And, at that time.
We lived kind of in a smallmountain town, and so we still
(07:12):
went to events, but just notanything local.
And I did try finding peoplelocally, but it's a small town
and didn't do much.
And so we sort of took a littlebit of a break and, Ben was kind
of egging me on, he was saying,you know, you need to find a
boyfriend.
I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah.
Goes, you really need to find aboyfriend.
You know?
So I said, well, you
Elle (07:31):
wear too much for him.
CiCi (07:32):
He loves to watch me.
He loves, he just loves toindulge me.
Yeah.
He is very, he just compressive.
Yes, exactly.
And even before we moved to thePacific Northwest, I would
sometimes go out and on my own,like solo.
And he always, encouraged me todo that.
He always wanted to hear allabout it, get pictures and talk
about it and stuff like that.
(07:52):
So that was a little bit part ofour dynamic, I guess.
That's like the hot wife.
Yeah.
Dynamic.
But I didn't even know what thatterm was.
Never heard of it.
Okay.
And then when we moved, he wasjust teasing me about finding
someone locally.
And a couple of years I think.
Probably three years ago, likeon Halloween, I remember that he
talked me into doing a profileon Tinder, which I have never
(08:13):
done.
I've never done an online datingapp ever.
Okay.
And, of course my single friendsdo all that.
So I, I made a profile on Tinderand the next morning I had like
a a thousand likes.
Elle (08:23):
Holy cow.
Sure.
Yeah.
CiCi (08:24):
So then.
So I'm like, I am not gonna gothrough a thousand profiles.
So, I started Googling othertypes of dating apps that were a
little bit more focused on, not,traditional dating.
Elle (08:35):
Okay.
And I found, so that's whatthose be.
CiCi (08:36):
Yeah.
That's So Field.
Field.
I found Field and I, made aprofile on field and I met
people really.
That I'm still friends withtoday.
So it's kind of hit or miss, butI feel like the people that I
wanna meet probably had aprofile on field at some point.
Sure.
So that's kind of what happened.
I started meeting people locallyand that's been really fun.
(08:57):
And so the Denver thing, I thinkI had heard about Scarlet Ranch.
When I was visiting Denver and Idecided that I wanted to check
it out.
Mm-hmm.
So I went there, I went on myown, on one of the ladies'
nights just to check it out tosee if something that would be
something that Ben would like.
And, and I love the ranch.
I mean, it's very cool.
It's very different than, than alot of lifestyle, clubs, I
(09:18):
guess.
Yeah.
It's not a nightclub.
It's more like a, more like alodge.
Mm-hmm.
And I went there and I met, acouple there that were gold
members.
I met your husband.
Mm-hmm.
And, thought it was really cool.
It was really chill and myhusband would like it.
And so that was my actual firsttrip.
And then I came back with him onhis birth.
Elle (09:35):
Right.
And I remember we had dinner.
Yes.
And Jay is like, oh, you reallyneed to meet this woman.
She's beautiful, she's funny,she's smart.
She's, you know, super sexy andI wanna make sure that we can
spend some time together and seewhere things could go.
And we did have a wonderfuldinner.
That
CiCi (09:51):
was a wonderful dinner.
A lot of fun.
And I tried the swing for thefirst time, so that was fun.
The swing under the stairs?
Yes.
The swing into the stairs.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That was a lot of fun.
Elle (10:00):
Oh good.
And then that just started ourfriendship after.
The years.
That's right.
That's right.
You know, we chat every now andthen, or you'd be taking a trip
somewhere, you're like, oh myGod, you should come.
Yeah, she come with me.
There's a party that I'm gonnago
CiCi (10:11):
to.
I know Jay really wants you tocome visit me.
He's always saying, anytime yougo on one of your trips, you go
on a business trip or something,you just tell me and I will fly
her down and I go, okay.
Alright.
So yeah, we just, that'llhappen, I'm sure.
Right.
It will.
Elle (10:24):
It's gonna get, it's gonna be the right time and that the
right place.
Right, right.
We've been traveling or havesomething else coming up, so,
you know.
Right,
CiCi (10:30):
right.
Well, I think I met you then.
The next time I came out, I wasvisiting, a play partner that
was stationed in, the Denverarea.
Right.
I came out actually for a hotwife event, a podcast I listened
to.
They have events, you know,throughout the United States at
the time.
Yes.
And they still do.
We,
Elle (10:47):
we've gone to this, I think.
Well, it was a different housethan you went to.
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
But they, go to a house out.
By the airport, a big Airbnbthat's mm-hmm.
Lifestyle friendly for sure.
Right, right.
And, and have him out there.
I think they come out a coupleof times a year still today.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
I
CiCi (11:03):
think they talk that about that in the podcast in which
they really liked Denver.
Yeah.
But yeah, but I went out thereto meet him and he's also
someone that lived in thePacific Northwest as well, and,
he knows Ben well.
They've, they've become friendsand, it's kind of like a third,
we all three get together.
We'll have dinner together,we'll go on hikes, go skiing.
We all three do things together,but I've also, go out with him
(11:24):
solo, we're friends as well.
And then, he happened to be hereon assignment.
And so I came out to visit himand take him to the hot wife
party and we decided to, go tothe ranch as well.
So that was when you got achance to meet him?
Elle (11:36):
Yeah, he was a nice guy for sure.
Something I was just thinkingabout is, and I, we've touched
on this a couple of times.
With other couples that we'veinterviewed, but the ability to
build those relationshipsoutside sex.
Mm-hmm.
Know you mentioned going for ahike.
Right.
You know, you guys get together,go to dinner, or something like
(11:57):
that.
Right.
I think that is something thatpeople in the vanilla world
don't quite understand, right.
Is that this is so much more Yesthan just going.
And fucking someone else'shusband.
Right, right.
This is, relationships or wewere talking about it earlier,
is we were getting set up forthe podcast is you can talk
(12:18):
about things, right.
That you can't talk about withothers because they look at you
horrified that you actuallybrought that up and you know,
it's hard when you forget whoyou are talking to.
You just comfortable.
The
CiCi (12:29):
thing about it is that occurs to me is that.
Everybody talks about like, Ilove food, I love to cook, I
love to go to restaurants.
I travel'cause I, like I saythat everything stems from my
love of food.
Mm-hmm.
I exercise'cause I love to eat.
Right?
Absolutely.
I cook because I love to eat.
I travel and I love food.
You know what?
I love sex.
And the thing about it is thateverybody has sex.
Everybody does it.
(12:50):
And it's such a normal part of,it's like a requirement, right?
It's like part of your being ahuman.
But why do we not talk about it?
Like why would we not.
Talk about something that we,spend so much time doing and
thinking about.
Elle (13:02):
I think what happens for a lot of people is sex becomes not
important.
Mm-hmm.
It's not a made up priority.
And when you have the kids andyou have work.
Right.
You have other responsibilities.
And sex does tend to take abackseat and Right.
That affects how you look atyour spouse.
Right.
And it affects how you feelabout yourself.
(13:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And one of the biggest things Inoticed getting into the
lifestyle with Jay and over theyears is I already, I always
felt I was, cute.
Yeah.
You know, in high school I wasthe guy's friend.
Yeah.
I wasn't the one that he askedout or Right.
That, you know, people hadcrushes on.
I was the one that, yeah, she'snice.
She's funny, you know, at leastthat's how I envisioned myself,
(13:46):
right?
Mm-hmm.
And then, to be in my gaspfifties.
I don't need to say which end,but I feel sexier now than I
ever have in my life.
Yes.
And a lot of that is not thephysical, a lot of that is from
the inside.
Yeah.
And how I feel about myself andhow I project myself to others
(14:08):
and how I feel that others seeme.
Right.
And a lot of my vanilla friends.
Are stuck in the ruts and in theroutine and still
CiCi (14:16):
feel like they're unattractive or they talk about
getting older or, you know,other things.
I agree with you.
I think that it's a reallyimportant part.
It's like part of health, youknow, like working out and being
mentally, healthy, beingsexually healthy is really
important.
Right.
And, I think things are kind ofchanging.
Like I kind of feel like it'sbecoming more normal, like
(14:36):
normalized and more positivemaybe with the younger
generation or, I don't know.
Yeah, no,
Elle (14:41):
I would agree with that.
Yeah.
'cause I think what we'restarting to see, especially the
ranch in the summertime atleast, is like, well, it seems
like this last year, once aweekend, they had the phone
party.
Mm-hmm.
And that brings out a younger 20something crowd that mm-hmm.
You know, they caught wind thatthis, EDM music playing.
Right.
And it's more like a little bitof a,
CiCi (14:59):
like a rave.
A rave, yeah, exactly.
I
Elle (15:02):
know my son, for years he's been going to raves and
loves the music and theatmosphere and pretty sure he's
enjoying the drugs.
We have, we've talked a littlebit about that, but, you know,
it's, something that they liketo do, so that sort of flows
into that.
I think that also.
The openness of a sexualrelationship is becoming a
(15:24):
little bit more normalized foryou.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Than it is for us but I alsofeel like it's becoming more
commonplace and more.
Open and accepting, becausethat's who we're surrounding
ourselves
CiCi (15:38):
with.
Yeah.
That may be true.
That may be true for sure.
Some of my most cherishedconnections I have such close
friends, and it's because youcan be completely yourself and
you can talk about everythingand, I think that's, a wonderful
thing.
I actually have a lot of friendsthat are, my fitness friends.
Mm-hmm.
We talk about fitness and we dofitness things together.
And I know if I'm gonna go out,drinking or something, they're
(15:59):
probably not gonna wanna do it.
Right.
You know, because just, they'remy friends that I do fitness
with and I have friends that arelike, you know, the book club
people or the cooking people.
I have a bunch of friends, momfriends actually, that, I still
adore and we get together and wehave a great time.
But I can't talk about the sex.
Yeah.
And I kind of feel like with thee and m friends I have, I can
talk about everything.
(16:19):
Yeah.
Elle (16:20):
Ethical.
CiCi (16:20):
It's nice.
Non-monogamy.
Yeah.
And
Elle (16:22):
if somebody isn't sure, oh yes.
It's hard to kind of put, rollyour tongue around to say, but
I, you know, I feel you need tosay that more because that
encompasses,
CiCi (16:32):
encompasses everything, right.
More than just
Elle (16:34):
swinging.
Yeah.
So it's
CiCi (16:35):
poly, kink, other, oh, just general open.
Actually, I know a lot of peoplethat aren't.
Wouldn't consider themselvesswingers.
Right.
They don't really enjoy groupand going to parties.
They're more or less just datingseveral people.
Right.
They're not always intothreesomes and stuff like that,
but they're still e and m andthey still are very open and,
and communicate very well.
Elle (16:53):
Yeah.
There's so many different.
CiCi (16:55):
Yeah.
And different flavors.
Elle (16:56):
Aspects.
Yeah, flavors.
Oh, I like that.
And you,
CiCi (16:57):
you kind of go through, I think seasons, you know, like I
think, I feel like I wentthrough the kids season, you're
a parent and that takes a lot ofyour, energy.
And there was a time that Ijust.
Did nothing but work.
You know, worked all the time.
But now's a good time.
I can, I believe it's for you.
It's a very good time.
Elle (17:16):
Well, speaking of good times, tell me a fun story that
you have.
You know, everybody's got thatone where, they pull it out of
their back pocket to share astory because, I have
CiCi (17:24):
so many good stories, I'll just tell.
A funny story.
Kind of recent, a couple ofrecent kind of funny stories.
Okay.
They're not my every day, but,you know,'cause I just got back
from a trip.
Mm-hmm.
So, I just recently went on atrip and, it was a, triple trip.
This is the third leg.
So the first, part of it as Iwent to, San Francisco with some
my mom friends.
(17:45):
And, I have a friend that.
Loves organizing all of ustogether.
And we've had this, kind ofplan.
So we all went to San Franciscoand we went and saw, a drag show
brunch and we went to aHalloween thing, like at the old
San Francisco Mint where theylike, these are
Elle (17:59):
vanilla life brunch vanilla
CiCi (18:00):
friends.
Yeah.
Okay.
But, the one who organizes itknows my ways.
And, there's another friendthere that we got together once
with Ben.
So of course she knows our waysas well, but that was a long
time ago.
It was, she was one of the, andI talked about like, we had some
friends, sometimes we gottogether, like, okay.
It was one wasn't a regular, butwe are, she was more okay.
She was like one time, butmm-hmm.
(18:22):
You know, she was, she's very,very sexy.
I mean, she's like a man magnet.
She like, oh, nice.
She's like one of those peoplethat just exudes sexualness.
She can go out in like hersweats and with no makeup on and
her hair's a mess.
She's surrounded by five guys.
I don't know what it is.
I'm
Elle (18:36):
envious.
Yeah,
CiCi (18:37):
sorry.
It doesn't matter.
We all have her seasons andstuff, so she was on that trip.
And then I have a friend whoisn't ENM, but I had to come
clean with her because on one ofthe previous trips we were
actually in Orlando going toDisney World.
And there was a takeover eventhappening at Secrets and I
really wanted to go.
(18:57):
But I was with all these friendsand I wanted to go to this party
and so I, I brought like aschool girl outfits, and I had
to sneak outta this Disney areato get into an Uber to go to
this party.
And I was swimming with myvanilla friend.
So I had to, come clean to her.
And I just said, if I tell yousomething about me, don't judge
me.
She goes, I would never judgeyou, Cece.
(19:19):
Just wait.
And, and I, I go, so then I toldher and she didn't judge me and
she covered for me.
She said The Costa's clear.
'cause we were all staying likenext to each other.
I snuck outta that place, like
Elle (19:30):
covert
CiCi (19:30):
operation.
Covert operation.
Snuck outta that place and wentto the party.
Had a great time, came back.
Super late and was not good thenext day.
I could not go to Disney World.
Elle (19:37):
I think I got food boys.
CiCi (19:40):
I just thought I was very tired and, and it was true.
That was not a lie.
No.
But anyway, she was there.
So we went on this great, youkind of vanilla girls trip but
we all went out after like goingto the Mint and Holland, the
haunted houses and stuff.
They all went to Dead.
And there is a club there calledtwist.
Club Twist.
Oh, I've heard that.
Yeah.
And there's a community calledBronze Party, and I, I know the
(20:00):
person who runs it, I've been tomany of his parties, my husband
Ben and I had been to several ofhis events when we were living
in the Bay Area, and I, we stillgo sometimes.
And I knew the people workingthe front door, like the
security people.
So I snuck out over there, itwas like about a mile and a half
away and.
Went to the, went to the pre,what is it, the Halloween
kickoff, and had a very goodtime.
(20:22):
It was a very fun, there's someplay partners from the past that
I see and they were there.
And so it was very, very fun SoI just did that and then I went
to Orlando and we just didnormal things.
Did the amusement parks and nowI'm here.
Elle (20:35):
And now you're here.
So you've managed to reallybalance your vanilla life with
your.
More playful side of things.
CiCi (20:43):
Yes.
I try to, and sometimes, youknow, sometimes it gets to be
too much and I think, well, Ineed to put more balance into
other things.
Mm-hmm.
Because you know, I mean, howmany orgies and
Elle (20:53):
can you go to, can you go to person, go to The answer
CiCi (20:55):
is quite a bit.
Yes.
So, but do, how many do you wantto go to?
So, I mean, just like you haveto, fit in your exercise and
your health and sleep, you needsleep.
I've, I've gotten like anaverage of four hours of sleep.
For the last seven days, so I'm
Elle (21:08):
sure it's gonna hit you at some point.
CiCi (21:10):
At some point, yeah.
Yeah, maybe.
Maybe after tomorrow.
Elle (21:12):
You know, we were talking about that earlier today too,
that when it seems like youcan't handle everything that's
going on.
It is that basis of, you have.
The ability to love multiplepeople and to be with multiple
people, but you don't have theability to create extra hours in
a day.
CiCi (21:32):
That's right.
You know, time and energy islimited.
I think love is unlimited.
You can love multiple people,and, and I do.
I, I really do.
I.
Love a lot of my partners.
Mm-hmm.
Not, not like I do my husband.
My husband is my soulmate.
But I do love others and, but Idon't have unlimited time and
energy.
Yeah.
You just don't.
So you have to prioritize, yourtime just like you would, I
(21:54):
mean, that is what I thinkhappens with your kids.
You know, as a mom, you end upprioritizing your kids and,
maybe rightly so, but you reallyneed to make sure that, I think.
To also prioritize your partnerand prioritize your health.
I mean, a lot of people stopworking out, they stop taking
care of themselves.
They stop investing in theirrelationship.
(22:14):
I, I feel like it's reallyimportant.
I'm not saying that I did agreat job.
I mean, there are times that Ididn't do that.
And still to this day Isometimes I realize, oh my God,
I'm spending all my time doingother things.
I'm not investing in what'simportant to me.
So I just think that's part oflife and being human and, you
know, cool.
Elle (22:32):
And, and that's something that we all need to be
constantly aware of.
Yes.
I think, yeah, you're right.
When there's little kids, it'sharder to do that.
But as you get older, you'vegotta find a way to bring that
back.
And I think that's why we see alot of couples who've been
married for a long time dip atoe into the swing of lifestyle.
Right.
'cause they want to, feel thatagain.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And they see that this is a wayand it's, it needs to not be a
(22:56):
fix.
No.
But it can always enhance.
That's right.
Can go about it, right?
That's right.
In your travels and in yoursexual escapade tell me a story
that maybe wasn't so great thatyou learned something okay, well
we need to not do that.
Those are my favorite storiesbecause everybody relates to
(23:16):
them too.
Honestly,
CiCi (23:17):
this happens on a regular basis.
Well, something will happen andI'll go.
Well.
I'm really sorry that I didthat.
I had a strange one prettyrecently.
And that there was somebody,actually, somebody I met at that
hot wife party, Uhhuh wasactually living in like a van
and he's like a.
Bike bicyclist, like a bikeracer.
Okay.
And he was traveling around,living in his van and work, he
was working in it or somethinglike that.
(23:39):
He was going around the countryand he was rolling through,
where I lived.
And so he came over and normallywe wouldn't have.
Someone like that stay with us.
But we said, oh no, you, youcould stay with us or at least
come over and take a shower andstuff.
'cause he was living in his van.
And a friend of mine was havingan orgy.
The first thing that happened isthat we went to see a friend of
ours a musician friend there,our e and m, very close friends
(24:03):
with Ben and I.
And they were.
Like singing or performingguitar and singing at a, a local
bar.
Mm-hmm.
So we all went to that place andthis person, put his arm around
me, not thinking, you know,whatever, but we hadn't
discussed it.
He hadn't really talked to Benabout that.
And yeah, Ben was like, oh dude,you know, he's
Elle (24:21):
kind of assuming
CiCi (24:22):
well, and and it's partly my fault.
I mean, I was wearing like atight dress, I was wearing no
underwear and I like was.
All jazz.
This is my fault.
Let's go back to the fact
Elle (24:30):
that it is not what you're wearing.
It's, yes, I convers,
CiCi (24:33):
I feel like it's partly my fault, but it was also like, he
was like, you know,
Elle (24:37):
there was an assumption.
CiCi (24:38):
Anybody, there was an assumption and we were in
public.
Yeah.
So, you know any in your town?
In my town, and I've got, I'vegot, I have family that live in
that town.
We have people that don't know,so that was.
It's just, I was being careless,having him over and just kind of
acting like it was a swing ofthing and it wasn't we're in
public.
Yeah.
And then he did as well.
So Ben's great.
He'll say something and, and itcould have ruined everything.
(25:01):
'cause he was really, kind ofirked about it.
But he got over that'cause theguy was a really nice guy.
Yeah.
So that happened and then thenext day, we had planned to play
later that evening.
Planned too many things.
We went on a hike and too manythings.
And then there was a bike racegoing on, so all the roads were
closed.
Oh, sure.
And then we had this orgy to goto and it was just, it was just
(25:21):
so many things.
There's too many things.
And then at, at the orgy, sothat was supposed to be eight
people, two like four couples onthe way there.
One of the guys so he was goingas a date with another friend
and the wife wasn't gonna bethere.
And the wife decided that.
He wasn't allowed to go.
So one of the guys dropped lastminute, so then it was gonna be
three guys and four women.
(25:43):
Okay.
Elle (25:43):
Which
CiCi (25:43):
is not right.
Which is okay.
Yeah.
But then we get there soeverything was sexy and great,
but he was really ha he was kindof having a hard time performing
and which is totally, it'stotally, you know, normal.
But he just, couldn't perform.
So.
Rather than just sit out andfocus on other things, right?
He like left the room and juststarted meditating.
(26:04):
In another room.
It was like kind of off, likekind of strange and okay.
And so then I went to talk tohim and then it turns out that
he was just about to go on thislike spiritual journey, which
involved being celibate.
And I was gonna be his lasthurrah, but he didn't tell me
that.
Like, I did not know this, so.
Wow.
I know.
And so he was, he's gonna writea book and he was gonna go
(26:24):
expectations,
Elle (26:25):
but no,
CiCi (26:26):
he just didn't say anything.
And so then I guess whathappened is at that event.
He, his mind was already like,yeah.
Checked out, so that's why hecouldn't perform and then he
just decided just to start hiscelibacy right then.
And there was like, we're in themiddle of a
Elle (26:40):
starting your celibacy journey in the middle of an
orgy.
Yes.
Really a big one to wrap around.
CiCi (26:46):
Okay.
I just.
I don't, I mean, we ended uptalking about it later and it's
fine.
I mean, he, completely went offthe grid.
I've not talked to him at all.
He's like, cut himself off.
He's like being a monk.
So he's often in the middle ofthe mountains, I'm sure
somewhere.
But that was kind of a negativeexperience.
I kinda weird.
Elle (27:02):
Sure.
But it, it comes back to, and Ichuckle and I'm just sitting
here quietly smiling it, and itcomes up on every episode.
But it is that communication.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Whether it's your partner or Orsomebody new.
Yeah.
And if you have expectations,it's okay to go into something
with no expectations and you letit flow.
Right, right, right.
But if you have specificexpectations, you need to take
(27:24):
those moments.
Especially he's staying with you
CiCi (27:26):
for, he's staying with us.
And the thing about is we weresupposed to play with with Ben,
so,
Elle (27:30):
yeah.
CiCi (27:30):
And then so the orgy happens, he sat out, which is, I
guess, fine, it's just that wedidn't come back home to Ben
and, and be together, which iswhat we thought was gonna
happen.
That didn't happen.
He just left and went on his vanand left that that night like he
left and camped somewhere.
But they, it's kind of just a,as a funny, as an aside.
Yes.
(27:51):
So there was two guys and fourwomen.
Elle (27:53):
Okay.
Then
CiCi (27:54):
and strap on.
So Ben was not there, so I went,no.
Then okay.
And then, and then one of theguys is like, he's also kind of
a hot wife dynamic as well, andthey're content maker.
So he was videoing, so then hewasn't really participating.
One guy and four women is withfour women, but I could tell you
he did a good job.
Elle (28:12):
Oh, good.
Yeah.
Good part, I hope.
CiCi (28:15):
Yeah.
Well actually he's the one I wastelling you about that runs
these parties, and so Oh, sure.
Yeah, he's, he's quite thesuperstar, so he, okay.
I mean, I have to say four womenand a strap on, so Good.
Elle (28:27):
Okay, so there were two penises.
And four women.
CiCi (28:31):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But still, that's an interestingdynamic.
I know.
But it started off like onething, it turned into something
else, which ended up being okay.
And I had a good time and it wasall right.
It was just, I was worriedabout, the guy that was staying
with us and it was, I was reallybummed with my husband.
'cause that whole weekend we hadsort of built it up and, and it
became just me and the guy andthe guy.
Left and that whole thingprobably could have been, maybe,
(28:52):
well, I don't know if they couldhave been avoided.
He didn't know that was gonnahappen.
Right.
I just didn't know about thewhole celibacy thing.
And
Elle (28:57):
that would've made a difference.
He would've, I
CiCi (28:58):
mean,
Elle (28:59):
at least had some heads up of what was going on and, you
know Right.
To help him through that or tounderstand where he was at.
Yeah.
CiCi (29:07):
Yeah.
Maybe he wasn't saying it'causehe didn't wanna make it weird.
I don't know, but Sure.
But anyway, definitely didn'tget weird.
It's not a story that you hearevery day.
It didn't, it doesn't happen tome every day.
So, no.
Elle (29:15):
Well and kind of to.
To wrap things up a little biton this, I, I wanna ask you,
because you really have embracedthe hot wife mm-hmm.
World Yes.
Over the years, and I've notperfected it because certainly
you can't, and there's stillgonna be ups and downs, but what
would be your advice to a womanwho wants to explore more of the
(29:36):
hot wiping?
Let's assume husband is onboard, she wants to do more hot
wiping.
What are some positive tips to.
Help her navigate through that?
CiCi (29:47):
Oh gosh.
Well, first of all, I, would saygo do it.
I mean, I love it.
I think it's awesome and I'm solucky.
I feel so lucky and fortunatethat, my husband loves me so
much and he just loves toindulge me and he.
You know, truly loves seeing meand hearing about it and
watching me, and so I love it.
(30:10):
And so it's a great match.
Yeah, I would say that if bothpeople aren't really into it, I
mean, just be careful, you know?
I mean, try it and if it doesn'twork out, there's no, no harm.
There's other things to do.
Yeah.
But if you do find that you bothlike it, I think it's a
wonderful thing.
So, so take
Elle (30:25):
it one at a time.
Yeah.
And evaluate and, and start.
I think so.
I
CiCi (30:28):
don't think that, I think.
Is true.
Well, my guess is, is that it'strue for really all types of
relationships.
There's not really a cookiecutter way.
I mean, there's some couples Iknow where the, the husband
like, he chooses all the men.
Okay.
And it's so, he feels like he's.
Elle (30:42):
Got the control of what's happening.
Yeah.
CiCi (30:44):
He, he has, he does all the matchmaking.
He has a bunch of rules andstuff like that.
And that may work for, well forthem.
Mm-hmm.
For us, we don't have that.
I mean, I, I choose my ownpartners and honestly, I don't
bring them all home to BenUhhuh.
And so sometimes it's just megoing out solo and.
Taking pictures and videos andtalking about it later, it's
(31:05):
always super hot, hot later on,you know?
And but if it's somebody that Ireally think would be a friend,
like someone that I really willcare about and that I think
he'll like, which is, it's rare.
I mean, I, I'm very careful andselective of who I bring into
our relationship.
And I think I'm getting to thepoint now where I'm, sort of
fulfilled with who I have, so Idon't, I'm not really looking,
not really looking for anythingmore, but yeah, I think that
(31:27):
works for us.
I know that other people, thehusband is much more involved
and it's much more of a dynamicthat way.
Ours is really more, I guess,free flowing of it.
Yeah.
So I think what my advice wouldbe is just talk about it with
your, partner and see what worksfor you.
Try different things.
And I even know people that, youknow, several people that have.
We're both partners will datesolo and, and they really don't
(31:49):
talk about it with each other.
Like they go off and they, haveexperiences and they're kind of
separate.
And that wouldn't work well formy husband and me.
I mean, we share everything andI tell'em everything.
And I think for us, that bringsus closer.
And but for others, that's finefor them.
So I'd say that, you just haveto find what works for you.
Elle (32:08):
I think that's a good point because everybody is
different.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So have that, that talk, havethat conversation, evaluate.
As it goes.
Right.
And it changes,
CiCi (32:17):
you know, it changes.
Right.
And you know what that's aprerogative.
You, you know, you might have aboundary or a rule today, and
even in the same evening,something might change.
So you just have to communicateabout it.
Yeah.
You know, and not, hold thingsback because you, you're afraid
fester.
Yeah.
Don't let it fester.
And, and sometimes you'refeeling insecure on something
else.
Like, I find that whenever we'vehad, conflicts or issues.
(32:40):
Around, being open and in thelifestyle it's usually not
because of that.
It's about because of somethingelse.
Right.
You know,, it's, that's whattriggers it.
It triggers it, but it's, maybe
Elle (32:49):
dive into it a little bit more.
Yeah.
CiCi (32:50):
Dive into it.
Don't assume that it's becauseof that specifically.
It's really, when one personmight be feeling kind of
vulnerable, more insecure, andneed something more.
At that point in time.
Yeah, so I would just say that,it's not like there's a rule
that is true even like in thesame evening, you know?
Elle (33:06):
Right, right.
And I think it's important to,know and understand when your
partner is expressing to you howthey feel about a certain
situation.
To not necessarily take thatpersonally.
Yeah, don't be defensive becauseit may not really have anything.
I, I'm totally guilty of that.
CiCi (33:21):
Like, you know, oh, yeah, me too.
You know, something happens andyou, I'll automatically start
getting all defensive and that'sjust not helpful.
No.
So it's, but it's humanbehavior.
So just recognizing the momentthat don't, when you start
feeling yourself gettingconfronted or feeling defensive,
just stop for a second and justlisten and try to, and
Elle (33:37):
let them work that out as they're talking about it.
And get through to it.
And some people, people, youmight find it something else
completely different.
Totally.
That you two can agree on andwork on and be okay.
CiCi (33:46):
And some people think out loud and some people don't, you
know?
And someone thinks out loud, butit's not really what they think
forever, it's just what theythought at that time, you know,
at that moment.
So, yeah, sure.
Like anything else, swing islike anything else.
Like it could be the kids, itcould be, money, it could be
anything.
So,
Elle (34:01):
yeah.
Yeah.
Could be tired.
'cause your neck hurt.
Yeah.
Oh wait, that was me.
Oh, well, great.
Okay.
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tonight.
Perfect.
I would like to just take amoment and really thank Cece not
only for coming and making theeffort to stop here on our way
home and spend some time withus, and we're going to the
(35:27):
wonderful, amazing, supercrowded Halloween party tonight.
And we had a wonderful party,friends of ours hosted a house
party and let us bring ourgirlfriend along to, to meet
everybody and we had a greattime.
This, this whole weekend so farhas turned out to be really
pretty terrific.
CiCi (35:45):
Yeah.
Thank you so much for having me.
So much fun.
And you know, Halloween is kindof the Super Bowl for Swingers.
I've never, actually It is, butI've never really done it for
Halloween.
I've always, I've not done oneHalloween party that is
lifestyle related.
So this is that, this is why Iwanted to come and see you guys
this weekend.
So
Elle (36:03):
I, I'm really excited to see the costumes.
People get so creative and theygo all out and the people are
there.
It's gonna get warm.
And thank goodness we have a, a70 degree Colorado Day with no
forecast of snow tonightknocking on wood.
'Cause it's Colorado andsometimes you get that freak
stuff, but no sign of it so far.
I'm
CiCi (36:23):
definitely gonna run today.
It's beautiful out.
Beautiful.
Yeah.
You're gonna wanna get outtoday?
Yeah,
Elle (36:27):
for sure.
So thank you again so much forcoming and spending time with
us.
Until next time.
I'm Elle.
CiCi (36:34):
And I'm Cece.
Elle (36:35):
Be sexy,
CiCi (36:36):
be confident.
Elle (36:37):
Be unapologetic.
Welcome back to the Unapologetic Swingers.
I'm Elle Tramp is sleeping in,and I'm sneaking in a bonus
episode today.
I have my good friend Cece intown.
She lives in the PacificNorthwest and is staying with us
on a layover to get back home,and I'm excited to have her here
to tell us her story, how shegot in the lifestyle and where
(00:25):
her journey has taken her.
We met Cece and her husband Bena few years ago when they were
here visiting the ranch, and weall hit it off right away and
we've maintained thatrelationship and are looking.
To take a few fun girls tripstogether soon.
So welcome Cece.
I am so glad that you're herewith me this morning.
CiCi (00:45):
Me too.
And it's so great to see you.
Elle (00:47):
Oh, yay.
We've trying to do this and gettogether for I know, like a
couple of years.
That's true.
This is
CiCi (00:53):
true.
Yeah.
And you have a beautiful homeand so thank you so much for
welcoming me.
Thank you.
Super fun.
I'm happy
Elle (00:59):
to come out and see yours.
CiCi (01:00):
Yes, yes, definitely.
Elle (01:02):
So, what I'd love to do to start off, just to get us going,
'cause I know we don't have anytrouble talking is to just ask
how you got in the lifestyle.
How long ago it was, was it withyou, was it with you and Ben?
And kind of where your journey'staken you?
CiCi (01:16):
Okay.
Well, it's kind of funny becauseI think about, what does it mean
to be in the lifestyle?
Does it really just mean nothaving a vanilla sex life?
Mm-hmm.
And if I think about it thatway, well, I had my first
threesome when I was maybe, hmm.
20.
Okay.
In college,
Elle (01:33):
was that with a, a guy or with a guy?
It was with
CiCi (01:36):
two of my friends.
It was with my girlfriend and aguy friend.
Okay.
We were, engineering studentstogether at university.
Oh, wow.
And I'm not even quite sure howit happened.
We were just at a party and wejust started making out and
decided to go back to my,apartment at the time.
Mm-hmm.
And we just had a threesome.
It just kinda happened and I'mstill friends.
Don't talk to him anymore, butI'm still friends with her.
(01:58):
Yeah.
She was actually the maid ofhonor in my wedding.
Oh, wow.
So we've been friends for a longtime, but yeah, that just
happened., Those kinds of thingskinda happened throughout my
life.
I know I just had sort of anormal life and, I was running
around having a good time as ayoung adult.
Sure.
And then every once in a while.
Get together with, more than onefriend at the same time.
So does that mean I waslifestyle?
(02:19):
I don't know.
Elle (02:19):
Maybe, I dunno.
I mean, again, we, we've talkedabout the definition and what
makes lifestyle before, right.
I think the general consensusis.
S do you feel you're, you werein the lifestyle that that was,
you know, I
CiCi (02:30):
didn't even know about that term.
I think that I've always beensexually open.
Mm-hmm.
I'm not one of those people thatgrew up in a really repressed
religious background.
My parents had like Playboy andpenthouse laying around.
I think I had my first orgasmwhen I was like 10.
Sure.
With the shower, massage orsomething like that.
So I'm like, oh, that was fun.
(02:51):
And so I just have been sort ofopenly sexual, kind of my whole
life.
Yeah.
And I think about it, was Inon-monogamous or was I, I
think, you know, our society.
You're socialized to want onepartner.
And so I definitely wanted tofind my true love and find my
person.
And I did have boyfriends, butif it wasn't part of society, I
would've been open if at thetime.
(03:12):
So I guess what I'd say is that,I feel like I'm.
An ENM person at my core.
That's just how I am.
Whether that's lifestyle orswinger or whatever, that's just
how I am.
And I think because of society,I.
Tried to be monogamous and, Idon't think it worked out well
for me.
So, I'm with my wonderfulhusband and he's my soulmate and
(03:34):
my partner in crime and my bestfriend, and he's like me.
So it's all great.
But yeah it was from, I thinkthe start.
Mm-hmm.
If I think about when we reallystarted like swinging.
I actually met him and I waswith somebody else, and he was
with somebody else.
So again, I was not monogamous,but it wasn't ethical and I'm
not proud of that.
But, I was young and stupid, butwe ended up together I think at
(03:56):
that time, the person that I waswith, I would tell.
About some of my experiences andsharing about myself, and then
he would immediately get upseteven if it was something that
happened before I met him.
And at that point, I decided,well.
I'm not sorry I did all thosethings.
I'm just sorry that I told him.
Elle (04:13):
It's, it's not a safe space.
It's not a safe
CiCi (04:15):
space.
So I kept a lot of myselfsecret.
Sure.
I didn't share everything.
So when I met my now husband, Idecided I would just be myself.
I would.
Just tell'em everything.
And I think we were dating and Iwent with a girlfriend to a club
med once, The same person that IOh, okay.
Yeah.
She was with, it was with her,with several other people, but
she and I seduced the sailinginstructor.
(04:36):
Oh, okay.
And had a threesome.
See that happening.
See that?
Yeah.
And then we came back and then Itold Ben about it and I fully.
Was expecting that he was gonnaget upset and break up with me,
but he didn't.
He was like, oh really?
Tell me more.
Tell me more.
I'm like, I go, huh.
So we've always been that way.
(04:57):
And we didn't know about thelifestyle.
We didn't know there wassomething called swinging.
So we would just live sort ofnormal vanilla lives.
But every once in a while wewould, get together with our
friends.
It wasn't usually anybody thatwe didn't know.
It was always.
People that we knew.
And but it wouldn't be all thetime.
It would be just like, oh, wegot together.
That was really fun.
There was a couple peopleeventually that we kind of got
(05:17):
together with regularly.
I sort of knew when we gottogether with certain people to
go out, we probably wind up,fucking, but it was not a
lifestyle thing.
And I think at one point, it washis birthday and we went to
Vegas.
He actually hired a sex worker.
This
Elle (05:33):
is not the first time we've had this story on really.
CiCi (05:38):
Well, he hired a sex worker.
He did it all for his birthday.
And, we did that and we actuallywent to a Cassidy party.
So we heard about Cassidy fromanother friend who told us all
about swinging and we joinedCassidy and we went to a Cassidy
party and we had a fantastictime and we thought this is
really fun.
So that's kind of what started,I would say, the traditional
lifestyle.
That's when I would considerthat we were actually lifestyle
(05:58):
before we were just sexuallyopen.
Elle (06:00):
Right, right.
Okay.
And so then it became a littlebit more organized because you
had the website and you Right,you had to make a profile
specifically.
Yeah.
Yes.
Profile.
And then you start talking topeople and you start looking at
other people.
Right.
Then you make dates.
Well,
CiCi (06:14):
you know, so we didn't really do any of that.
We didn't really go on dates, wejust went to events.
Elle (06:18):
Okay.
CiCi (06:18):
So there were some local events at the time I was living
in the Bay Area and, up, wewould look up whatever events
were happening through Cassidynormally.
And then once you go to someevents, you hear about other
ones, right?
And so we would go to those andthose were really fun, but we
really didn't connect withanybody there outside of the
event.
We would go there, we would havefun.
So, but that was kind of our funthing to do.
Probably not that often, likeonce every month or two,
(06:42):
something like that.
Not like all the time.
Mm-hmm.
But yeah, that's how we started.
Elle (06:45):
Okay.
When did you start making sometrips to Denver to go.
CiCi (06:49):
Oh, okay.
So that was much later.
Oh, okay.
So this was all happening.
I mean, I'm advanced in my age,so don't look it, this was
probably, when we were going toCassidy events, it was kind of a
long time ago, and then we endedup moving, to the Pacific
Northwest.
Okay.
And, at that time.
We lived kind of in a smallmountain town, and so we still
(07:12):
went to events, but just notanything local.
And I did try finding peoplelocally, but it's a small town
and didn't do much.
And so we sort of took a littlebit of a break and, Ben was kind
of egging me on, he was saying,you know, you need to find a
boyfriend.
I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah.
Goes, you really need to find aboyfriend.
You know?
So I said, well, you
Elle (07:31):
wear too much for him.
CiCi (07:32):
He loves to watch me.
He loves, he just loves toindulge me.
Yeah.
He is very, he just compressive.
Yes, exactly.
And even before we moved to thePacific Northwest, I would
sometimes go out and on my own,like solo.
And he always, encouraged me todo that.
He always wanted to hear allabout it, get pictures and talk
about it and stuff like that.
(07:52):
So that was a little bit part ofour dynamic, I guess.
That's like the hot wife.
Yeah.
Dynamic.
But I didn't even know what thatterm was.
Never heard of it.
Okay.
And then when we moved, he wasjust teasing me about finding
someone locally.
And a couple of years I think.
Probably three years ago, likeon Halloween, I remember that he
talked me into doing a profileon Tinder, which I have never
(08:13):
done.
I've never done an online datingapp ever.
Okay.
And, of course my single friendsdo all that.
So I, I made a profile on Tinderand the next morning I had like
a a thousand likes.
Elle (08:23):
Holy cow.
Sure.
Yeah.
CiCi (08:24):
So then.
So I'm like, I am not gonna gothrough a thousand profiles.
So, I started Googling othertypes of dating apps that were a
little bit more focused on, not,traditional dating.
Elle (08:35):
Okay.
And I found, so that's whatthose be.
CiCi (08:36):
Yeah.
That's So Field.
Field.
I found Field and I, made aprofile on field and I met
people really.
That I'm still friends withtoday.
So it's kind of hit or miss, butI feel like the people that I
wanna meet probably had aprofile on field at some point.
Sure.
So that's kind of what happened.
I started meeting people locallyand that's been really fun.
(08:57):
And so the Denver thing, I thinkI had heard about Scarlet Ranch.
When I was visiting Denver and Idecided that I wanted to check
it out.
Mm-hmm.
So I went there, I went on myown, on one of the ladies'
nights just to check it out tosee if something that would be
something that Ben would like.
And, and I love the ranch.
I mean, it's very cool.
It's very different than, than alot of lifestyle, clubs, I
(09:18):
guess.
Yeah.
It's not a nightclub.
It's more like a, more like alodge.
Mm-hmm.
And I went there and I met, acouple there that were gold
members.
I met your husband.
Mm-hmm.
And, thought it was really cool.
It was really chill and myhusband would like it.
And so that was my actual firsttrip.
And then I came back with him onhis birth.
Elle (09:35):
Right.
And I remember we had dinner.
Yes.
And Jay is like, oh, you reallyneed to meet this woman.
She's beautiful, she's funny,she's smart.
She's, you know, super sexy andI wanna make sure that we can
spend some time together and seewhere things could go.
And we did have a wonderfuldinner.
That
CiCi (09:51):
was a wonderful dinner.
A lot of fun.
And I tried the swing for thefirst time, so that was fun.
The swing under the stairs?
Yes.
The swing into the stairs.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That was a lot of fun.
Elle (10:00):
Oh good.
And then that just started ourfriendship after.
The years.
That's right.
That's right.
You know, we chat every now andthen, or you'd be taking a trip
somewhere, you're like, oh myGod, you should come.
Yeah, she come with me.
There's a party that I'm gonnago
CiCi (10:11):
to.
I know Jay really wants you tocome visit me.
He's always saying, anytime yougo on one of your trips, you go
on a business trip or something,you just tell me and I will fly
her down and I go, okay.
Alright.
So yeah, we just, that'llhappen, I'm sure.
Right.
It will.
Elle (10:24):
It's gonna get, it's gonna be the right time and that the
right place.
Right, right.
We've been traveling or havesomething else coming up, so,
you know.
Right,
CiCi (10:30):
right.
Well, I think I met you then.
The next time I came out, I wasvisiting, a play partner that
was stationed in, the Denverarea.
Right.
I came out actually for a hotwife event, a podcast I listened
to.
They have events, you know,throughout the United States at
the time.
Yes.
And they still do.
We,
Elle (10:47):
we've gone to this, I think.
Well, it was a different housethan you went to.
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
But they, go to a house out.
By the airport, a big Airbnbthat's mm-hmm.
Lifestyle friendly for sure.
Right, right.
And, and have him out there.
I think they come out a coupleof times a year still today.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
I
CiCi (11:03):
think they talk that about that in the podcast in which
they really liked Denver.
Yeah.
But yeah, but I went out thereto meet him and he's also
someone that lived in thePacific Northwest as well, and,
he knows Ben well.
They've, they've become friendsand, it's kind of like a third,
we all three get together.
We'll have dinner together,we'll go on hikes, go skiing.
We all three do things together,but I've also, go out with him
(11:24):
solo, we're friends as well.
And then, he happened to be hereon assignment.
And so I came out to visit himand take him to the hot wife
party and we decided to, go tothe ranch as well.
So that was when you got achance to meet him?
Elle (11:36):
Yeah, he was a nice guy for sure.
Something I was just thinkingabout is, and I, we've touched
on this a couple of times.
With other couples that we'veinterviewed, but the ability to
build those relationshipsoutside sex.
Mm-hmm.
Know you mentioned going for ahike.
Right.
You know, you guys get together,go to dinner, or something like
(11:57):
that.
Right.
I think that is something thatpeople in the vanilla world
don't quite understand, right.
Is that this is so much more Yesthan just going.
And fucking someone else'shusband.
Right, right.
This is, relationships or wewere talking about it earlier,
is we were getting set up forthe podcast is you can talk
(12:18):
about things, right.
That you can't talk about withothers because they look at you
horrified that you actuallybrought that up and you know,
it's hard when you forget whoyou are talking to.
You just comfortable.
The
CiCi (12:29):
thing about it is that occurs to me is that.
Everybody talks about like, Ilove food, I love to cook, I
love to go to restaurants.
I travel'cause I, like I saythat everything stems from my
love of food.
Mm-hmm.
I exercise'cause I love to eat.
Right?
Absolutely.
I cook because I love to eat.
I travel and I love food.
You know what?
I love sex.
And the thing about it is thateverybody has sex.
Everybody does it.
(12:50):
And it's such a normal part of,it's like a requirement, right?
It's like part of your being ahuman.
But why do we not talk about it?
Like why would we not.
Talk about something that we,spend so much time doing and
thinking about.
Elle (13:02):
I think what happens for a lot of people is sex becomes not
important.
Mm-hmm.
It's not a made up priority.
And when you have the kids andyou have work.
Right.
You have other responsibilities.
And sex does tend to take abackseat and Right.
That affects how you look atyour spouse.
Right.
And it affects how you feelabout yourself.
(13:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And one of the biggest things Inoticed getting into the
lifestyle with Jay and over theyears is I already, I always
felt I was, cute.
Yeah.
You know, in high school I wasthe guy's friend.
Yeah.
I wasn't the one that he askedout or Right.
That, you know, people hadcrushes on.
I was the one that, yeah, she'snice.
She's funny, you know, at leastthat's how I envisioned myself,
(13:46):
right?
Mm-hmm.
And then, to be in my gaspfifties.
I don't need to say which end,but I feel sexier now than I
ever have in my life.
Yes.
And a lot of that is not thephysical, a lot of that is from
the inside.
Yeah.
And how I feel about myself andhow I project myself to others
(14:08):
and how I feel that others seeme.
Right.
And a lot of my vanilla friends.
Are stuck in the ruts and in theroutine and still
CiCi (14:16):
feel like they're unattractive or they talk about
getting older or, you know,other things.
I agree with you.
I think that it's a reallyimportant part.
It's like part of health, youknow, like working out and being
mentally, healthy, beingsexually healthy is really
important.
Right.
And, I think things are kind ofchanging.
Like I kind of feel like it'sbecoming more normal, like
(14:36):
normalized and more positivemaybe with the younger
generation or, I don't know.
Yeah, no,
Elle (14:41):
I would agree with that.
Yeah.
'cause I think what we'restarting to see, especially the
ranch in the summertime atleast, is like, well, it seems
like this last year, once aweekend, they had the phone
party.
Mm-hmm.
And that brings out a younger 20something crowd that mm-hmm.
You know, they caught wind thatthis, EDM music playing.
Right.
And it's more like a little bitof a,
CiCi (14:59):
like a rave.
A rave, yeah, exactly.
I
Elle (15:02):
know my son, for years he's been going to raves and
loves the music and theatmosphere and pretty sure he's
enjoying the drugs.
We have, we've talked a littlebit about that, but, you know,
it's, something that they liketo do, so that sort of flows
into that.
I think that also.
The openness of a sexualrelationship is becoming a
(15:24):
little bit more normalized foryou.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Than it is for us but I alsofeel like it's becoming more
commonplace and more.
Open and accepting, becausethat's who we're surrounding
ourselves
CiCi (15:38):
with.
Yeah.
That may be true.
That may be true for sure.
Some of my most cherishedconnections I have such close
friends, and it's because youcan be completely yourself and
you can talk about everythingand, I think that's, a wonderful
thing.
I actually have a lot of friendsthat are, my fitness friends.
Mm-hmm.
We talk about fitness and we dofitness things together.
And I know if I'm gonna go out,drinking or something, they're
(15:59):
probably not gonna wanna do it.
Right.
You know, because just, they'remy friends that I do fitness
with and I have friends that arelike, you know, the book club
people or the cooking people.
I have a bunch of friends, momfriends actually, that, I still
adore and we get together and wehave a great time.
But I can't talk about the sex.
Yeah.
And I kind of feel like with thee and m friends I have, I can
talk about everything.
(16:19):
Yeah.
Elle (16:20):
Ethical.
CiCi (16:20):
It's nice.
Non-monogamy.
Yeah.
And
Elle (16:22):
if somebody isn't sure, oh yes.
It's hard to kind of put, rollyour tongue around to say, but
I, you know, I feel you need tosay that more because that
encompasses,
CiCi (16:32):
encompasses everything, right.
More than just
Elle (16:34):
swinging.
Yeah.
So it's
CiCi (16:35):
poly, kink, other, oh, just general open.
Actually, I know a lot of peoplethat aren't.
Wouldn't consider themselvesswingers.
Right.
They don't really enjoy groupand going to parties.
They're more or less just datingseveral people.
Right.
They're not always intothreesomes and stuff like that,
but they're still e and m andthey still are very open and,
and communicate very well.
Elle (16:53):
Yeah.
There's so many different.
CiCi (16:55):
Yeah.
And different flavors.
Elle (16:56):
Aspects.
Yeah, flavors.
Oh, I like that.
And you,
CiCi (16:57):
you kind of go through, I think seasons, you know, like I
think, I feel like I wentthrough the kids season, you're
a parent and that takes a lot ofyour, energy.
And there was a time that Ijust.
Did nothing but work.
You know, worked all the time.
But now's a good time.
I can, I believe it's for you.
It's a very good time.
Elle (17:16):
Well, speaking of good times, tell me a fun story that
you have.
You know, everybody's got thatone where, they pull it out of
their back pocket to share astory because, I have
CiCi (17:24):
so many good stories, I'll just tell.
A funny story.
Kind of recent, a couple ofrecent kind of funny stories.
Okay.
They're not my every day, but,you know,'cause I just got back
from a trip.
Mm-hmm.
So, I just recently went on atrip and, it was a, triple trip.
This is the third leg.
So the first, part of it as Iwent to, San Francisco with some
my mom friends.
(17:45):
And, I have a friend that.
Loves organizing all of ustogether.
And we've had this, kind ofplan.
So we all went to San Franciscoand we went and saw, a drag show
brunch and we went to aHalloween thing, like at the old
San Francisco Mint where theylike, these are
Elle (17:59):
vanilla life brunch vanilla
CiCi (18:00):
friends.
Yeah.
Okay.
But, the one who organizes itknows my ways.
And, there's another friendthere that we got together once
with Ben.
So of course she knows our waysas well, but that was a long
time ago.
It was, she was one of the, andI talked about like, we had some
friends, sometimes we gottogether, like, okay.
It was one wasn't a regular, butwe are, she was more okay.
She was like one time, butmm-hmm.
(18:22):
You know, she was, she's very,very sexy.
I mean, she's like a man magnet.
She like, oh, nice.
She's like one of those peoplethat just exudes sexualness.
She can go out in like hersweats and with no makeup on and
her hair's a mess.
She's surrounded by five guys.
I don't know what it is.
I'm
Elle (18:36):
envious.
Yeah,
CiCi (18:37):
sorry.
It doesn't matter.
We all have her seasons andstuff, so she was on that trip.
And then I have a friend whoisn't ENM, but I had to come
clean with her because on one ofthe previous trips we were
actually in Orlando going toDisney World.
And there was a takeover eventhappening at Secrets and I
really wanted to go.
(18:57):
But I was with all these friendsand I wanted to go to this party
and so I, I brought like aschool girl outfits, and I had
to sneak outta this Disney areato get into an Uber to go to
this party.
And I was swimming with myvanilla friend.
So I had to, come clean to her.
And I just said, if I tell yousomething about me, don't judge
me.
She goes, I would never judgeyou, Cece.
(19:19):
Just wait.
And, and I, I go, so then I toldher and she didn't judge me and
she covered for me.
She said The Costa's clear.
'cause we were all staying likenext to each other.
I snuck outta that place, like
Elle (19:30):
covert
CiCi (19:30):
operation.
Covert operation.
Snuck outta that place and wentto the party.
Had a great time, came back.
Super late and was not good thenext day.
I could not go to Disney World.
Elle (19:37):
I think I got food boys.
CiCi (19:40):
I just thought I was very tired and, and it was true.
That was not a lie.
No.
But anyway, she was there.
So we went on this great, youkind of vanilla girls trip but
we all went out after like goingto the Mint and Holland, the
haunted houses and stuff.
They all went to Dead.
And there is a club there calledtwist.
Club Twist.
Oh, I've heard that.
Yeah.
And there's a community calledBronze Party, and I, I know the
(20:00):
person who runs it, I've been tomany of his parties, my husband
Ben and I had been to several ofhis events when we were living
in the Bay Area, and I, we stillgo sometimes.
And I knew the people workingthe front door, like the
security people.
So I snuck out over there, itwas like about a mile and a half
away and.
Went to the, went to the pre,what is it, the Halloween
kickoff, and had a very goodtime.
(20:22):
It was a very fun, there's someplay partners from the past that
I see and they were there.
And so it was very, very fun SoI just did that and then I went
to Orlando and we just didnormal things.
Did the amusement parks and nowI'm here.
Elle (20:35):
And now you're here.
So you've managed to reallybalance your vanilla life with
your.
More playful side of things.
CiCi (20:43):
Yes.
I try to, and sometimes, youknow, sometimes it gets to be
too much and I think, well, Ineed to put more balance into
other things.
Mm-hmm.
Because you know, I mean, howmany orgies and
Elle (20:53):
can you go to, can you go to person, go to The answer
CiCi (20:55):
is quite a bit.
Yes.
So, but do, how many do you wantto go to?
So, I mean, just like you haveto, fit in your exercise and
your health and sleep, you needsleep.
I've, I've gotten like anaverage of four hours of sleep.
For the last seven days, so I'm
Elle (21:08):
sure it's gonna hit you at some point.
CiCi (21:10):
At some point, yeah.
Yeah, maybe.
Maybe after tomorrow.
Elle (21:12):
You know, we were talking about that earlier today too,
that when it seems like youcan't handle everything that's
going on.
It is that basis of, you have.
The ability to love multiplepeople and to be with multiple
people, but you don't have theability to create extra hours in
a day.
CiCi (21:32):
That's right.
You know, time and energy islimited.
I think love is unlimited.
You can love multiple people,and, and I do.
I, I really do.
I.
Love a lot of my partners.
Mm-hmm.
Not, not like I do my husband.
My husband is my soulmate.
But I do love others and, but Idon't have unlimited time and
energy.
Yeah.
You just don't.
So you have to prioritize, yourtime just like you would, I
(21:54):
mean, that is what I thinkhappens with your kids.
You know, as a mom, you end upprioritizing your kids and,
maybe rightly so, but you reallyneed to make sure that, I think.
To also prioritize your partnerand prioritize your health.
I mean, a lot of people stopworking out, they stop taking
care of themselves.
They stop investing in theirrelationship.
(22:14):
I, I feel like it's reallyimportant.
I'm not saying that I did agreat job.
I mean, there are times that Ididn't do that.
And still to this day Isometimes I realize, oh my God,
I'm spending all my time doingother things.
I'm not investing in what'simportant to me.
So I just think that's part oflife and being human and, you
know, cool.
Elle (22:32):
And, and that's something that we all need to be
constantly aware of.
Yes.
I think, yeah, you're right.
When there's little kids, it'sharder to do that.
But as you get older, you'vegotta find a way to bring that
back.
And I think that's why we see alot of couples who've been
married for a long time dip atoe into the swing of lifestyle.
Right.
'cause they want to, feel thatagain.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And they see that this is a wayand it's, it needs to not be a
(22:56):
fix.
No.
But it can always enhance.
That's right.
Can go about it, right?
That's right.
In your travels and in yoursexual escapade tell me a story
that maybe wasn't so great thatyou learned something okay, well
we need to not do that.
Those are my favorite storiesbecause everybody relates to
(23:16):
them too.
Honestly,
CiCi (23:17):
this happens on a regular basis.
Well, something will happen andI'll go.
Well.
I'm really sorry that I didthat.
I had a strange one prettyrecently.
And that there was somebody,actually, somebody I met at that
hot wife party, Uhhuh wasactually living in like a van
and he's like a.
Bike bicyclist, like a bikeracer.
Okay.
And he was traveling around,living in his van and work, he
was working in it or somethinglike that.
(23:39):
He was going around the countryand he was rolling through,
where I lived.
And so he came over and normallywe wouldn't have.
Someone like that stay with us.
But we said, oh no, you, youcould stay with us or at least
come over and take a shower andstuff.
'cause he was living in his van.
And a friend of mine was havingan orgy.
The first thing that happened isthat we went to see a friend of
ours a musician friend there,our e and m, very close friends
(24:03):
with Ben and I.
And they were.
Like singing or performingguitar and singing at a, a local
bar.
Mm-hmm.
So we all went to that place andthis person, put his arm around
me, not thinking, you know,whatever, but we hadn't
discussed it.
He hadn't really talked to Benabout that.
And yeah, Ben was like, oh dude,you know, he's
Elle (24:21):
kind of assuming
CiCi (24:22):
well, and and it's partly my fault.
I mean, I was wearing like atight dress, I was wearing no
underwear and I like was.
All jazz.
This is my fault.
Let's go back to the fact
Elle (24:30):
that it is not what you're wearing.
It's, yes, I convers,
CiCi (24:33):
I feel like it's partly my fault, but it was also like, he
was like, you know,
Elle (24:37):
there was an assumption.
CiCi (24:38):
Anybody, there was an assumption and we were in
public.
Yeah.
So, you know any in your town?
In my town, and I've got, I'vegot, I have family that live in
that town.
We have people that don't know,so that was.
It's just, I was being careless,having him over and just kind of
acting like it was a swing ofthing and it wasn't we're in
public.
Yeah.
And then he did as well.
So Ben's great.
He'll say something and, and itcould have ruined everything.
(25:01):
'cause he was really, kind ofirked about it.
But he got over that'cause theguy was a really nice guy.
Yeah.
So that happened and then thenext day, we had planned to play
later that evening.
Planned too many things.
We went on a hike and too manythings.
And then there was a bike racegoing on, so all the roads were
closed.
Oh, sure.
And then we had this orgy to goto and it was just, it was just
(25:21):
so many things.
There's too many things.
And then at, at the orgy, sothat was supposed to be eight
people, two like four couples onthe way there.
One of the guys so he was goingas a date with another friend
and the wife wasn't gonna bethere.
And the wife decided that.
He wasn't allowed to go.
So one of the guys dropped lastminute, so then it was gonna be
three guys and four women.
(25:43):
Okay.
Elle (25:43):
Which
CiCi (25:43):
is not right.
Which is okay.
Yeah.
But then we get there soeverything was sexy and great,
but he was really ha he was kindof having a hard time performing
and which is totally, it'stotally, you know, normal.
But he just, couldn't perform.
So.
Rather than just sit out andfocus on other things, right?
He like left the room and juststarted meditating.
(26:04):
In another room.
It was like kind of off, likekind of strange and okay.
And so then I went to talk tohim and then it turns out that
he was just about to go on thislike spiritual journey, which
involved being celibate.
And I was gonna be his lasthurrah, but he didn't tell me
that.
Like, I did not know this, so.
Wow.
I know.
And so he was, he's gonna writea book and he was gonna go
(26:24):
expectations,
Elle (26:25):
but no,
CiCi (26:26):
he just didn't say anything.
And so then I guess whathappened is at that event.
He, his mind was already like,yeah.
Checked out, so that's why hecouldn't perform and then he
just decided just to start hiscelibacy right then.
And there was like, we're in themiddle of a
Elle (26:40):
starting your celibacy journey in the middle of an
orgy.
Yes.
Really a big one to wrap around.
CiCi (26:46):
Okay.
I just.
I don't, I mean, we ended uptalking about it later and it's
fine.
I mean, he, completely went offthe grid.
I've not talked to him at all.
He's like, cut himself off.
He's like being a monk.
So he's often in the middle ofthe mountains, I'm sure
somewhere.
But that was kind of a negativeexperience.
I kinda weird.
Elle (27:02):
Sure.
But it, it comes back to, and Ichuckle and I'm just sitting
here quietly smiling it, and itcomes up on every episode.
But it is that communication.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Whether it's your partner or Orsomebody new.
Yeah.
And if you have expectations,it's okay to go into something
with no expectations and you letit flow.
Right, right, right.
But if you have specificexpectations, you need to take
(27:24):
those moments.
Especially he's staying with you
CiCi (27:26):
for, he's staying with us.
And the thing about is we weresupposed to play with with Ben,
so,
Elle (27:30):
yeah.
CiCi (27:30):
And then so the orgy happens, he sat out, which is, I
guess, fine, it's just that wedidn't come back home to Ben
and, and be together, which iswhat we thought was gonna
happen.
That didn't happen.
He just left and went on his vanand left that that night like he
left and camped somewhere.
But they, it's kind of just a,as a funny, as an aside.
Yes.
(27:51):
So there was two guys and fourwomen.
Elle (27:53):
Okay.
Then
CiCi (27:54):
and strap on.
So Ben was not there, so I went,no.
Then okay.
And then, and then one of theguys is like, he's also kind of
a hot wife dynamic as well, andthey're content maker.
So he was videoing, so then hewasn't really participating.
One guy and four women is withfour women, but I could tell you
he did a good job.
Elle (28:12):
Oh, good.
Yeah.
Good part, I hope.
CiCi (28:15):
Yeah.
Well actually he's the one I wastelling you about that runs
these parties, and so Oh, sure.
Yeah, he's, he's quite thesuperstar, so he, okay.
I mean, I have to say four womenand a strap on, so Good.
Elle (28:27):
Okay, so there were two penises.
And four women.
CiCi (28:31):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But still, that's an interestingdynamic.
I know.
But it started off like onething, it turned into something
else, which ended up being okay.
And I had a good time and it wasall right.
It was just, I was worriedabout, the guy that was staying
with us and it was, I was reallybummed with my husband.
'cause that whole weekend we hadsort of built it up and, and it
became just me and the guy andthe guy.
Left and that whole thingprobably could have been, maybe,
(28:52):
well, I don't know if they couldhave been avoided.
He didn't know that was gonnahappen.
Right.
I just didn't know about thewhole celibacy thing.
And
Elle (28:57):
that would've made a difference.
He would've, I
CiCi (28:58):
mean,
Elle (28:59):
at least had some heads up of what was going on and, you
know Right.
To help him through that or tounderstand where he was at.
Yeah.
CiCi (29:07):
Yeah.
Maybe he wasn't saying it'causehe didn't wanna make it weird.
I don't know, but Sure.
But anyway, definitely didn'tget weird.
It's not a story that you hearevery day.
It didn't, it doesn't happen tome every day.
So, no.
Elle (29:15):
Well and kind of to.
To wrap things up a little biton this, I, I wanna ask you,
because you really have embracedthe hot wife mm-hmm.
World Yes.
Over the years, and I've notperfected it because certainly
you can't, and there's stillgonna be ups and downs, but what
would be your advice to a womanwho wants to explore more of the
(29:36):
hot wiping?
Let's assume husband is onboard, she wants to do more hot
wiping.
What are some positive tips to.
Help her navigate through that?
CiCi (29:47):
Oh gosh.
Well, first of all, I, would saygo do it.
I mean, I love it.
I think it's awesome and I'm solucky.
I feel so lucky and fortunatethat, my husband loves me so
much and he just loves toindulge me and he.
You know, truly loves seeing meand hearing about it and
watching me, and so I love it.
(30:10):
And so it's a great match.
Yeah, I would say that if bothpeople aren't really into it, I
mean, just be careful, you know?
I mean, try it and if it doesn'twork out, there's no, no harm.
There's other things to do.
Yeah.
But if you do find that you bothlike it, I think it's a
wonderful thing.
So, so take
Elle (30:25):
it one at a time.
Yeah.
And evaluate and, and start.
I think so.
I
CiCi (30:28):
don't think that, I think.
Is true.
Well, my guess is, is that it'strue for really all types of
relationships.
There's not really a cookiecutter way.
I mean, there's some couples Iknow where the, the husband
like, he chooses all the men.
Okay.
And it's so, he feels like he's.
Elle (30:42):
Got the control of what's happening.
Yeah.
CiCi (30:44):
He, he has, he does all the matchmaking.
He has a bunch of rules andstuff like that.
And that may work for, well forthem.
Mm-hmm.
For us, we don't have that.
I mean, I, I choose my ownpartners and honestly, I don't
bring them all home to BenUhhuh.
And so sometimes it's just megoing out solo and.
Taking pictures and videos andtalking about it later, it's
(31:05):
always super hot, hot later on,you know?
And but if it's somebody that Ireally think would be a friend,
like someone that I really willcare about and that I think
he'll like, which is, it's rare.
I mean, I, I'm very careful andselective of who I bring into
our relationship.
And I think I'm getting to thepoint now where I'm, sort of
fulfilled with who I have, so Idon't, I'm not really looking,
not really looking for anythingmore, but yeah, I think that
(31:27):
works for us.
I know that other people, thehusband is much more involved
and it's much more of a dynamicthat way.
Ours is really more, I guess,free flowing of it.
Yeah.
So I think what my advice wouldbe is just talk about it with
your, partner and see what worksfor you.
Try different things.
And I even know people that, youknow, several people that have.
We're both partners will datesolo and, and they really don't
(31:49):
talk about it with each other.
Like they go off and they, haveexperiences and they're kind of
separate.
And that wouldn't work well formy husband and me.
I mean, we share everything andI tell'em everything.
And I think for us, that bringsus closer.
And but for others, that's finefor them.
So I'd say that, you just haveto find what works for you.
Elle (32:08):
I think that's a good point because everybody is
different.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So have that, that talk, havethat conversation, evaluate.
As it goes.
Right.
And it changes,
CiCi (32:17):
you know, it changes.
Right.
And you know what that's aprerogative.
You, you know, you might have aboundary or a rule today, and
even in the same evening,something might change.
So you just have to communicateabout it.
Yeah.
You know, and not, hold thingsback because you, you're afraid
fester.
Yeah.
Don't let it fester.
And, and sometimes you'refeeling insecure on something
else.
Like, I find that whenever we'vehad, conflicts or issues.
(32:40):
Around, being open and in thelifestyle it's usually not
because of that.
It's about because of somethingelse.
Right.
You know,, it's, that's whattriggers it.
It triggers it, but it's, maybe
Elle (32:49):
dive into it a little bit more.
Yeah.
CiCi (32:50):
Dive into it.
Don't assume that it's becauseof that specifically.
It's really, when one personmight be feeling kind of
vulnerable, more insecure, andneed something more.
At that point in time.
Yeah, so I would just say that,it's not like there's a rule
that is true even like in thesame evening, you know?
Elle (33:06):
Right, right.
And I think it's important to,know and understand when your
partner is expressing to you howthey feel about a certain
situation.
To not necessarily take thatpersonally.
Yeah, don't be defensive becauseit may not really have anything.
I, I'm totally guilty of that.
CiCi (33:21):
Like, you know, oh, yeah, me too.
You know, something happens andyou, I'll automatically start
getting all defensive and that'sjust not helpful.
No.
So it's, but it's humanbehavior.
So just recognizing the momentthat don't, when you start
feeling yourself gettingconfronted or feeling defensive,
just stop for a second and justlisten and try to, and
Elle (33:37):
let them work that out as they're talking about it.
And get through to it.
And some people, people, youmight find it something else
completely different.
Totally.
That you two can agree on andwork on and be okay.
CiCi (33:46):
And some people think out loud and some people don't, you
know?
And someone thinks out loud, butit's not really what they think
forever, it's just what theythought at that time, you know,
at that moment.
So, yeah, sure.
Like anything else, swing islike anything else.
Like it could be the kids, itcould be, money, it could be
anything.
So,
Elle (34:01):
yeah.
Yeah.
Could be tired.
'cause your neck hurt.
Yeah.
Oh wait, that was me.
Oh, well, great.
Okay.
Well I'm gonna just take amoment.
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tonight.
Perfect.
I would like to just take amoment and really thank Cece not
only for coming and making theeffort to stop here on our way
home and spend some time withus, and we're going to the
(35:27):
wonderful, amazing, supercrowded Halloween party tonight.
And we had a wonderful party,friends of ours hosted a house
party and let us bring ourgirlfriend along to, to meet
everybody and we had a greattime.
This, this whole weekend so farhas turned out to be really
pretty terrific.
CiCi (35:45):
Yeah.
Thank you so much for having me.
So much fun.
And you know, Halloween is kindof the Super Bowl for Swingers.
I've never, actually It is, butI've never really done it for
Halloween.
I've always, I've not done oneHalloween party that is
lifestyle related.
So this is that, this is why Iwanted to come and see you guys
this weekend.
So
Elle (36:03):
I, I'm really excited to see the costumes.
People get so creative and theygo all out and the people are
there.
It's gonna get warm.
And thank goodness we have a, a70 degree Colorado Day with no
forecast of snow tonightknocking on wood.
'Cause it's Colorado andsometimes you get that freak
stuff, but no sign of it so far.
I'm
CiCi (36:23):
definitely gonna run today.
It's beautiful out.
Beautiful.
Yeah.
You're gonna wanna get outtoday?
Yeah,
Elle (36:27):
for sure.
So thank you again so much forcoming and spending time with
us.
Until next time.
I'm Elle.
CiCi (36:34):
And I'm Cece.
Elle (36:35):
Be sexy,
CiCi (36:36):
be confident.
Elle (36:37):
Be unapologetic.
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