October 22, 2025 • 30 mins
Miller Wrenn is a bassist and composer who explores the beauty of improvisation, collaboration, and the deep trust that fuels creative work. In this conversation with Andrew Ramsammy, Wrenn reflects on how neurodiversity shapes his process, why true artistry begins with openness, and how music becomes a living dialogue between people. From his early days as an 11-year-old bassist to collaborations with acclaimed artists like Hildur Guðnadóttir, Wrenn reveals the lessons of resilience, community, and honesty that define his craft.
00:00–00:23—Opening Reflection
00:28–01:35—Introduction
01:36–03:05—Full Circle at CalArts
03:06–05:11—Early Beginnings in Music
05:12–06:37—Discovering Improvisation
07:03–09:54—Collaboration and Connection
09:54–13:04—The First “Date” with Hildur Guðnadóttir
13:04–16:13—Experimentation and Musical Honesty
16:14–18:29—Balancing Structure and Spontaneity
18:30–19:52—Preparing for Improvised Performance
19:53–21:24—Themes and Emotional Exploration
21:25–22:56—Creative Blocks and Deep Listening
22:57–24:46—Letting Go of Ego
24:47–26:39—AI and the Future of Music
26:40–28:51—Advice to His Younger Self
28:52–29:51—Defining “Unapologetically Creative”
29:57–30:39—Closing Thoughts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
I had to learn that it was better for me to just be myself
really, and know that I can do that in good faith with other
people. And then they open up and then
we form an actual bond. But it's like, let me show you
the real shape and color of my energy.
And if you can show me yours andwe can see each other, then we
can make music that is meant to be made by us.
(00:28):
Welcome to Unapologetically Creative, a podcast from the
Vermont College of Fine Arts, where we celebrate bold
artistry, transformative creativity, and the audacious
voices shaping the future of thearts.
I'm your host Andrew Ram Sammy, and in this series we dive into
honest, inspiring conversations with artists who are pushing
(00:52):
boundaries and redefining what it means to create work that
resonates. And indoors.
Miller Wren is a bassist and composer whose work explores the
heart of improvisation, the art of listening, and how embracing
neurodiversity shapes the creative process.
This conversation touches on collaboration as a form of
(01:15):
trust, the importance of community and sustaining
artistry, and what it means to create authentically without
apology. It's a reflection on resilience,
honesty and the power of music as a living conversation.
Miller, welcome to the podcast. Thank you very much for having
(01:36):
me. So this is a before we dive in,
I have to ask your Cal Arts alumand this is now a full circle
moment. You're returning here to to Cal
Arts through VCFA and our music composition program.
You're a part of Anna's Ghost, which is one of our ensembles.
How has this full circle moment been for you?
(01:57):
It's been wonderful since, sinceI got the, the call about it, I
was very excited to be able to, you know, come back here every
day for, you know, the better part of the week.
And the rest of the members of the ensemble all went to Cal
Arts, but we all went to different times.
So we've kind of been joking with each other like, oh, this
is like we get to go to school together.
(02:18):
And it's been, it's been really wonderful.
The time I spent here was some of the most artistically
productive and fulfilling and invigorating time basically just
because of the kind of general ethos of the of the institution.
And it seems like VCFA has a a similar approach and sort of
value system. So it has been just felt like
(02:39):
home. What was your experience like
here at Calarts? Oh, it was incredible.
It was really arduous in a good way.
I did truly, as much as I possibly could.
I was playing tons of jazz, tonsof contemporary music,
practicing constantly, taking entire classes.
I was here like 9:00 AM to midnight six or seven days a
week. For.
You know the better part of two years and frequently wish I
(03:02):
could come back. It was a really wonderful time.
Well, welcome back. We're we're glad to have you
back in A and glad to have you as a part of our ensemble.
We'll talk more about that, but later on, but you your start,
what was your start in music? Where did Where did you
initially pick this all? Up.
Let's see, when I was about 11, I have a story that a lot of
(03:25):
bass players have, which is whenI was about 11, a bunch of my
friends wanted to start a band and they already all had
guitars. And so they were like, well, why
don't you be the bass player? And I wasn't super stoked about
that. But then I got a bass and I
remember immediately I wrote a little some little melody bass
(03:48):
line thing on it and had just never felt, never felt that way.
And I since then, so for the last 21 years, have just played
bass every day as much as I could.
And back then was. It it was electric.
Bass, right? Yes.
Which I still play, but I didn'tstart playing upright bass until
(04:08):
about 8th grade. And but yeah, and I, I was, I
realized early on, I, I, I didn't have a teacher and I
couldn't read music. And I got put in the jazz band
in 7th grade. And so I was like, well, I don't
know what this bass line that it's, that's written is, but I
think I can come up with one that'll work.
And so I was just doing that notknowing that that's actually
kind of what you're supposed to do.
(04:30):
And yeah, it's been kind of, I, I'd never entertained being
anything else. It was just like, I was 11.
I was like, oh, I'm going to be a musician then improvising kind
of the whole time, composing kind of the whole time.
It's just a really fundamental and changing part of who I am.
Do you remember the name of thatfirst band that you were in?
(04:50):
Yes. Oh God.
It was, I believe it was called dysfunction with the funk part
of it spelled FUNK. And we were playing like ska
music. There was nothing really truly
funky about it. It was, I was, yeah, really into
Bob Marley at the time. But we're like, fun band name,
yeah. So when did that become
(05:12):
formalized? When did the the music become
formalized in a kind of educational way?
I mean, I was, I did, you know, when in high school and middle
school I was in bands or, you know, in, in both like, you
know, garage bands and in marching band.
And, and then I went to college,UC Santa Barbara and that was
kind of when it got formalized. Spent a few years there and then
(05:33):
came to Keller's. Wow.
So this improvisation background, where, where did
that come from? When did improv become a a kind
of critical component of of yourwork, in the heart of your work?
I'm a pretty lucky, I, I would say exceptionally lucky in that
it has always, it's just my, that's my kind of default way of
operating. And that's, I mean, as I've
(05:55):
gotten older, I've realized that's true in a lot of avenues.
That probably has something to do with the ADHD diagnosis, but
of, of the, the just the urgencyof having to create something in
the moment is just an incrediblyclarifying factor for me.
And so, yeah, literally as long as I can, I remember even before
(06:17):
even technically, before I really started playing, I had
this this crappy little guitar from Target or something that
was out of tune and basically a toy.
And I had a little sister and I would like improvise deeply out
of tune nonsense lullabies for her when I was, you know, 7 or
something. So it's just always been there
(06:39):
and then. And I sort of didn't really
learn about that or didn't realize that was this massive
community of not only like jazz improvisers, but free
improvisers until college. I like, you know, found Ornette
Coleman's music and started really being like, wait, what
are, what's everyone else doing?Maybe there are other people who
(07:00):
want to do this with me. So you kind of like, as you
described ADHD, you kind of withyour hand, put it off to the
side, but I'm assuming that's not something you just put off
to the side. No, Yeah.
So it's just, yeah. But, you know, there's, there's
the mystery of where do all the things in my head go and where,
where do they come from? But it's.
(07:20):
Yeah, No, it is. It is actually very much not off
to the side. It is the central pillar desert
level. Collaboration is another kind of
key component of what you do. So putting that all together,
how does that work? I mean, you've, you've, you've
collaborated with some incredible artists, names that I
sometimes can't, I can't even pronounce Hildur.
(07:41):
Hildur Yeah, yeah, Composer of the Joker.
Vinnie Golia. Tony Mallaby, How do you
approach those collaborations, especially from artists with
such diverse musical backgrounds?
I mean, I think that that maybe one of the purposes of art is,
is, you know, personal expression and communication to
others on a on a more abstract level.
(08:05):
But I think that ultimately it'sjust, it's just people with
people. And I really don't feel
compelled by the, I mean, it's maybe a little bit of the
extreme, but the kind of fascistic compositional approach
of, of, you know, the composer is the final say has, you know,
all these. And like, I would much rather
(08:26):
curate just like a set of possibilities and then let
people live in them. So that that's kind of the core
of, you know, whether it's with Tony or Hildur or Vinnie or
whoever else, that it's meeting that person as the person they
are connecting with them on a regular human level.
(08:47):
That's in an in an honest level,like I'm not not the weirdest
person in the world. I'm also not the normalest
person in the world. And so I had to kind of learn to
like, not all right. I had to learn that it was
better for me to just be be myself really and know that I
can do that in good faith with other people.
(09:07):
And then they open up and then we form an actual bond.
And then the actual music makingis, is, is much more celebratory
and, and deeper. And you know, it's it's, you
know, if we talk about playing music and the kind of childlike
(09:28):
helmet of, of playing with people, it is kind of funny to
imagine like a bunch of kids showing up and being like,
hello, I am this is my name. This is your name.
Wonderful. That is play together.
Now, you know, which you can totally do and I've done a
million times, but you know, youwant to play with your friends.
And so, you know, even if I've never met somebody before, I'm
like, well, let's make friends. Let's become friends.
(09:48):
And then we'll then, then the collaboration happens on its
own. Yeah.
And is the best way to achieve that by just literally playing
like what's the? What is the way by which you
achieve that? Tell me.
Tell me what that process is. I think I think that the best
way to to do to do that process is to like share a meal together
(10:09):
or something, some like one of those just like really human
things, like, you know, going ona hike with people like or, or
sharing a meal. Honestly, it's probably anything
that's a good date, you know, orlike it's just some kind of,
Hey, who are you really? This is who I am really, you
(10:29):
know, doesn't have to be a big, like, here's all my trauma or or
something. But it's like, let me show you
the real shape and color of my energy.
And if you can show me yours andwe can see each other, then we
can. Then we can make music that is
meant to be made by us and not just our pair of aesthetics
(10:50):
being placed next to each other,which can be interesting too.
Yeah. So what was that first day like
with Hildur? That was just through kind of a,
a, a, a series of through through a, a proxy.
But there was a, a Avon kind. It was an incredible violist,
composer, improviser, and but sothat was for the Joker, the
(11:12):
first Joker score where Hilder had written these beautiful solo
cello lines. And she's a very idiosyncratic
way of playing. And so like, you know, all of
her like F sharps were like 7 cents sharp and her G sharps
were like 6 cents flat. And so she had all these solo
lines that she wanted us to to explode basically.
(11:36):
So Avent and I recorded like in unison with her and then at
every octave we could to take her single idiosyncratic line
and make it sound like, you know, a whole orchestra playing
that. And which was a little bit of a
nightmare just performatively. Because, you know, especially
(11:57):
any solo string player will tellyou, like, everyone has
different inflections, everyone has different, and matching
someone's exact inflections was really, really hard.
And we did it for hours and hours and hours and hours late
into the night. And then we like took a break at
1:00 in the morning. And there was this Cuban
restaurant that was still open. And we sat down and we were
(12:17):
eating dinner and talking. And then Flying Lotus sat down
next to us, realized we were talking about music.
And then we kind of ended up talking with him about music and
which was very invigorating. And then we kind of like went
back was like two or three in the morning and knocked the rest
of it out. But that was a really
interesting kind of form of collaboration because that was,
I mean, there was, there was very little of that that was me
(12:40):
other than the sound. But what it really was was like,
you have to see how this person plays, you're here, you know,
you have to really pay attentionto how this person is expressing
themselves and be present to that and, and meet them there
exactly there, which is I think kind of the fundamental, one of
the fundamental processes of collaboration with being able to
(13:01):
meet people wherever they are. I mean, collaboration and, and
improvisation probably involves a lot of experimentation.
Is it just one big experiment? Are you trying to replicate
things from previous experiments?
Like what? What's that?
That's. A good question.
Rocess And how do you push the boundaries of that, especially
with with the bass? I mean, the bass, I love the
(13:24):
bass because it's kind of a broken instrument.
Like it's the wrong size. There's no standardization.
There's, you know, like violins are standardized, cellos are
standardized, violas have a range, bases are a total free
reign. So they're kind of broken.
And because they're kind of broken, all of their little
intricacies, each instrument's little intricacies are so easy
(13:47):
to find. And so that sort of feels like
an infinite, you know, an infinite kind of like
exploration of this particular collection of wood.
And then in terms of experimentation and, and like
replication, I think that there is there is as much as certainly
five years ago I would have toldyou I was trying to never repeat
(14:07):
myself ever. Now a little older, I know that
that's not possible. And also no one likes that,
myself included. Like I the years I spent trying
to never repeat myself were a bummer, but now I think that it
is. The experimentation is sort of a
(14:27):
game of figuring out, well, I'llput it this way.
There's music that I make only for myself that no one else ever
hears. There's music that I make just
by myself that other people are supposed to hear.
There's music that I make that is meant to be with specific
(14:49):
other people or meant to be withanybody else.
And there is basically there is music that that can only be made
by any specific group of if that, you know, if a specific
group of people make it. And in a way that like nourishes
and excites everybody there. So I think the experimentation
(15:09):
is sort of like finding what people like to do, which usually
means you have to kind of get through a little bit of, you
know, the first couple times youplay might be, you know, kind of
dealing with people's expectations of themselves and
of you and what they think you want to hear or what they think
they should play, you know, thatkind of stuff.
(15:31):
But then when you can play around enough to find, OK, this
is the place where the three of our or the five of our or the
two of our whatever musical value systems slash areas of
interest overlap. It's yeah.
It's, I mean, it is kind of justit's getting to know people in
in the experimental and, you know, there's the their process
(15:53):
of connecting with someone as a human being.
And then, you know, there are plenty of human beings that I
connect to incredibly deeply. And then when we go to make
music together, we're just from very different places.
And sometimes that's fun to findthe, the place in between that.
And sometimes it's like this might be more work than it's
than it's worth maybe. But I think the the experiment,
(16:16):
I mean, it's, it's it's all one big experiment in the way that
like life is all one big experiment.
Yeah. You know, yes.
As we're experiencing it literally right now, when you're
creating or performing, how do you balance structure with
spontaneity? So that is kind of, especially
for improvisers, balancing structure and spontaneity is
kind of the the there's a never ending question of how much do
(16:41):
you ask of people? How much do you trust them?
Yeah. How of, if you're curating a set
of possibilities, how curated doyou want that to be?
And I think that at least where I'm at now, what I've found is
that most improvisers are helpedout, helped along, or the
process goes faster if they havea simple idea of somewhere to
(17:04):
start and a simple idea of somewhere to end.
And that that's what I've been kind of working with for the
last couple years. And after, you know, well over a
decade of like trying to to makethese beautiful, like sort of
semi graphic scores that represent improvisational things
that I put a lot of work in and then like kind of work, but also
would have worked if I just likeexplained them or like distilled
(17:27):
them down. You know, I think that there's
in any kind of compositional space there is and in some kind
of instincts to like, you know, to put something down in
notation or in to render the structure in some way that that
is itself like an artistic object that is representative of
(17:51):
what you want to do. Which is all well and good.
I realized at a certain point that the only thing that I
really cared about was the soundand the interaction, and that my
very complicated pseudographic scores were getting in the way
of people being comfortable. And they were like trying to
(18:12):
adhere to things that I wanted rather than just kind of feeling
what they were feeling inside the space that I gave them.
So. Yeah, I I've, I've found that
the the structure is, the structure is pretty, is pretty
minimal, but it is basically always helpful if if something's
there. Yeah.
How do you prepare for live performances of improvised
(18:32):
music, and how do you navigate the unpredictability of those
moments? My favorite part, the fear is
the real is the real thing in there.
Yeah, it's great. I mean, I preparing for
improvised performance is, you know, in every day, my entire
life kind of thing. Like of, you know, by the time
you start an improvised performance, everything that you
(18:54):
could have done to make it better has already happened.
So you just got to be in it and that's the best thing that you
can do in that moment. So everything you know, it's, it
is kind of this rather than if, you know, if I'm practicing like
a solo piece or something that'swritten where I'm like spending
a lot of time in that specific piece, being able to perform it,
(19:15):
you know, in kind of an acute instance.
Preparing for improvised performance is a lot more like
just making sure I've spent enough time with the instrument,
making sure that I'm that I've spent enough time kind of poking
and prodding at the boundaries of the things that I'm currently
working on, techniques or, or harmonic ideas or whatever.
(19:39):
And just being really in the general space of musical
creativity. Yeah.
So, which is obviously works forme because that can you can do
that in a million different ways.
So your music often feels like it's an exploration of emotion
and texture. What themes or ideas are you
trying to drive in your work andhow do you translate that into
(20:02):
to sound? So I, I've been thinking about
that a lot recently actually. And I, I saw a random, but when
the director, Akira Kurosawa gota honorary Oscar in 1990, when
he's being introduced, they, they referenced a quote from one
of his, from an interview with him where someone asked like,
(20:22):
oh, does your work all have a shared theme?
And he said, no, my work all hasa shared question, which is why
can't people be happier together?
And I that really hearing that, I was like, oh, that's also what
I'm trying to get at, or some version of that, of trying to
kind of understand the way people live their lives and the
(20:47):
conflicts that arise from those things and the confluences that
arise from those things. And so my music, I, I, what I
hope for it to be is, is there's, there's certainly like
an aspirational element in it oflike trying to, to interact in,
(21:08):
you know, maybe some kind of pseudo utopian way.
I mean, I think that the reason that that watch that listening
to people improvise or watching them improvise is compelling on
some inherent level is because at the highest levels, it's a
microcosm of living well together.
Do you ever fear that you just might hit a creative block where
the. Music stops.
(21:31):
No, because I don't really believe in that.
If you hit the place where it's like, oh, there's a block or, or
you know, or I'm like, oh, I don't know what I want to play
or I hate when I just played. Take a breath, lay up, take 510
seconds, which is what we shouldall do in life anyway, you know,
like where if you are starting to like really, if you're like
reaching like some, some huge prob or not even not a huge
(21:52):
problem because it's music. There's no such thing as a
musical big deal. You know, at least to me, you
know, you should just be able totake a second listen to what the
other people around you are doing and then how you can
contribute to that. Well, now you've just brought up
another element that we actuallyhaven't talked about how key is
listening to what you do. Oh my God, it is.
(22:13):
It is kind of the only thing like the and in in the the best
musical, whether you're actually, whether you're
performing like written music ornot, the best musical
experiences are had when you arelistening to yourself the least.
Like if you can have your ears zoom out and hear everyone, I
(22:34):
can hear yourself as part of that as opposed to like, OK, I
am really in touch with just what I am doing and I know it's
contributing, but I'm like really focused on what I'm doing
is basically always better if you are not only focused on
yourself or if you really if youare primarily focusing on what
is what is happening in the space around me.
(22:55):
So how do you strip that away? How do you strip that ego or
turn that ego down so that you can hear everyone else?
That's a long process. I think that's a really long
personal process. I mean, for me, I did that
through like years of not to sound like a, you know, I don't
know, pretentious already asshole person.
(23:16):
But like through like years of like trying to meditate, of
years of, of, you know, journaling, like of, of just, of
real life, being able to, to kind of see, see the ways that I
was getting in my own way. And then it's just kind of a
(23:36):
process of like, well, there's problems here.
This is an obstacle to, to me having a happier life or, or
let's, I mean before that, this is an obstacle to me being
happier with the musical performances and interactions I
have. And thankfully for me, I don't
know, this might be like kind ofan ADHD thing too or something.
Or like once I realize somethingis like an obstacle, I am just
(24:00):
like, give that thing no energy.Like, you know, the second, the
2nd, I have a self critical thought.
I have now trained myself to immediately just start focusing
on someone else and what they'replaying.
Because it's, it's not like you don't have to sit there and
process. Like no, no, no, I'm OK.
No, I'm I've, if this is, this is fine.
(24:20):
Like just don't, don't think about the thing.
Think about like shift your focus to the thing that you
should be focusing on that, you know, intellectually at least.
Or maybe you have a little bit of that kind of emotional muscle
memory built in of like, oh, I know this thing will make me
feel better. I know this thing will give me
an idea. And then you do that and you
just do it. I mean, it's unfortunately
(24:42):
there's kind of a, there's a Nike miss to it all of just like
just. Do it.
Music is changing. It has changed.
It's I'm sure you're probably talking about or wrestling with
AI and what's that's going to mean?
How do you figure all that out? How do you meander in between
all of those worlds? The world, the world is going to
change. The world is going to change
(25:03):
around all of us in every way. And I think all that we can
expect ourselves to do is try to, like, live as honestly
through that as we can. And like, there are always going
to be people who are like, you know, for one reason or another,
don't value artists. I think basically everyone
(25:25):
values art even if they don't think they do.
But there are plenty of people who do not give a shit about
artists. And those people love AI music.
Someone's going to like, people are going to use it.
I can't control that. I can control, you know, for I
had AI had a concert that and the promoter emailed me and he
(25:46):
was like, Hey, can we use, I made this AI image for the
poster. Can we use it?
No, sorry. Like I happily would have
connected you with a friend thatwho is a designer who you could
have paid 100 bucks or whatever.And so I can control those
little areas and, you know, I'm certainly not using AI
(26:08):
generatively in my music ever. There is a new AI mastering
program that really does get youmost of the way there with
pretty much a click of a button.And that's like, that's just a,
that's a practical tool in a, ina different way.
But, but in terms of content andin terms of creation, yeah, the
actual creation, I, it's just, it has no place for me.
(26:31):
And that's I, I, I would question anybody who thinks it
has a place for them, but I'm not them.
Let's go back to 11 year old Ren.
OK, who picks up that bass and joins the band?
FUNK. What was it again?
Dysfunction, yeah. What would you tell 11 year old
(26:53):
Ren? What advice would you give him
knowing what you know now? It's a good question.
I think it would be. I think it would just be trust
yourself. There was a long time.
I'm very happy with where I am now musically.
I mean, you know, it, which has been hard earned or and been on
whatever level, just internally even.
(27:15):
But there I spent a long time especially because like I didn't
have a teacher. I didn't have a a teacher until
I got to grad school on upright bass.
So and I've been playing it for,you know, I don't know, 13 years
by that point. So I'm mostly self-taught and I
spent, you know, the basically the entirety of my 20s freaking
out about lacking the pedigree. And I, but I was really
(27:37):
concerned about that and really upset about it for years.
And then at some point, I mean, I think also partially with the
ADHD thing, I get bored of just having the same conversations or
thinking the same thing and I just have to go.
I just can't think about this anymore.
And I stopped thinking about that actually during the
pandemic. Everything shut down.
(27:58):
I made my first solo bass recordthat I recorded for $0.00 in my
kitchen and that is the record that I, at least up until that
point, was absolutely the most satisfied by that made the most
money that like I got the most positive feedback about and it
was just me playing whatever I felt like playing that day.
(28:21):
I just kind of did it every day,recorded something every day for
like a month and just did whatever I wanted, you know,
without, but not enough, whatever I want, just know
whatever I feel like right away.And it was just so much more
successful and it felt so much better and people liked it so
much more. And I, I was so happy with it
(28:44):
that, that I was like, oh, OK, like I've been doing something
right all along. What does it mean to be
unapologetically creative? I think it means knowing that an
apology in any kind of in creativity is just completely
unnecessary and unrelated where you know, like people talk about
(29:05):
the, the kind of like being a vessel or whatever.
I think about it like I dig around and then I find stuff and
the idea that that I would be like, Oh, I'm sorry is like,
why? What, what it what is there to
possibly apologize for if you'retrying to put something
beautiful into the world? So, you know, like, yeah, people
have have told me I've put out that solo record and I met up
(29:26):
with a friend and he was like, congratulations on releasing the
record. It's not really for me.
I was like, I don't care that that it truly, it's not even
like, oh, I don't care. Like, I, you know, it's not the
Don Draper. I don't think about you at all.
It's it's just doesn't even enter into the equation.
It's about like, if you are living a, you know, a nourishing
(29:47):
artistic life, you're just trying to put beautiful things
into the world. Miller Wren leaves us with a
portrait of music as dialogue rooted in listening, trust, and
vulnerability. His perspective on
improvisation, collaboration, and community shows how
(30:09):
creativity is less about perfection and more about
presence. It's a reminder that art becomes
most powerful when it's shared honestly and openly, inviting
others into the process. Thanks for listening to
Unapologetically Created. Be sure to follow the show and
stay tuned for more insightful conversations in the episodes
(30:31):
ahead. To learn more about the Vermont
College of Fine Arts, visit vcfa.edu.
I had to learn that it was better for me to just be myself
really, and know that I can do that in good faith with other
people. And then they open up and then
we form an actual bond. But it's like, let me show you
the real shape and color of my energy.
And if you can show me yours andwe can see each other, then we
can make music that is meant to be made by us.
(00:28):
Welcome to Unapologetically Creative, a podcast from the
Vermont College of Fine Arts, where we celebrate bold
artistry, transformative creativity, and the audacious
voices shaping the future of thearts.
I'm your host Andrew Ram Sammy, and in this series we dive into
honest, inspiring conversations with artists who are pushing
(00:52):
boundaries and redefining what it means to create work that
resonates. And indoors.
Miller Wren is a bassist and composer whose work explores the
heart of improvisation, the art of listening, and how embracing
neurodiversity shapes the creative process.
This conversation touches on collaboration as a form of
(01:15):
trust, the importance of community and sustaining
artistry, and what it means to create authentically without
apology. It's a reflection on resilience,
honesty and the power of music as a living conversation.
Miller, welcome to the podcast. Thank you very much for having
(01:36):
me. So this is a before we dive in,
I have to ask your Cal Arts alumand this is now a full circle
moment. You're returning here to to Cal
Arts through VCFA and our music composition program.
You're a part of Anna's Ghost, which is one of our ensembles.
How has this full circle moment been for you?
(01:57):
It's been wonderful since, sinceI got the, the call about it, I
was very excited to be able to, you know, come back here every
day for, you know, the better part of the week.
And the rest of the members of the ensemble all went to Cal
Arts, but we all went to different times.
So we've kind of been joking with each other like, oh, this
is like we get to go to school together.
(02:18):
And it's been, it's been really wonderful.
The time I spent here was some of the most artistically
productive and fulfilling and invigorating time basically just
because of the kind of general ethos of the of the institution.
And it seems like VCFA has a a similar approach and sort of
value system. So it has been just felt like
(02:39):
home. What was your experience like
here at Calarts? Oh, it was incredible.
It was really arduous in a good way.
I did truly, as much as I possibly could.
I was playing tons of jazz, tonsof contemporary music,
practicing constantly, taking entire classes.
I was here like 9:00 AM to midnight six or seven days a
week. For.
You know the better part of two years and frequently wish I
(03:02):
could come back. It was a really wonderful time.
Well, welcome back. We're we're glad to have you
back in A and glad to have you as a part of our ensemble.
We'll talk more about that, but later on, but you your start,
what was your start in music? Where did Where did you
initially pick this all? Up.
Let's see, when I was about 11, I have a story that a lot of
(03:25):
bass players have, which is whenI was about 11, a bunch of my
friends wanted to start a band and they already all had
guitars. And so they were like, well, why
don't you be the bass player? And I wasn't super stoked about
that. But then I got a bass and I
remember immediately I wrote a little some little melody bass
(03:48):
line thing on it and had just never felt, never felt that way.
And I since then, so for the last 21 years, have just played
bass every day as much as I could.
And back then was. It it was electric.
Bass, right? Yes.
Which I still play, but I didn'tstart playing upright bass until
(04:08):
about 8th grade. And but yeah, and I, I was, I
realized early on, I, I, I didn't have a teacher and I
couldn't read music. And I got put in the jazz band
in 7th grade. And so I was like, well, I don't
know what this bass line that it's, that's written is, but I
think I can come up with one that'll work.
And so I was just doing that notknowing that that's actually
kind of what you're supposed to do.
(04:30):
And yeah, it's been kind of, I, I'd never entertained being
anything else. It was just like, I was 11.
I was like, oh, I'm going to be a musician then improvising kind
of the whole time, composing kind of the whole time.
It's just a really fundamental and changing part of who I am.
Do you remember the name of thatfirst band that you were in?
(04:50):
Yes. Oh God.
It was, I believe it was called dysfunction with the funk part
of it spelled FUNK. And we were playing like ska
music. There was nothing really truly
funky about it. It was, I was, yeah, really into
Bob Marley at the time. But we're like, fun band name,
yeah. So when did that become
(05:12):
formalized? When did the the music become
formalized in a kind of educational way?
I mean, I was, I did, you know, when in high school and middle
school I was in bands or, you know, in, in both like, you
know, garage bands and in marching band.
And, and then I went to college,UC Santa Barbara and that was
kind of when it got formalized. Spent a few years there and then
(05:33):
came to Keller's. Wow.
So this improvisation background, where, where did
that come from? When did improv become a a kind
of critical component of of yourwork, in the heart of your work?
I'm a pretty lucky, I, I would say exceptionally lucky in that
it has always, it's just my, that's my kind of default way of
operating. And that's, I mean, as I've
(05:55):
gotten older, I've realized that's true in a lot of avenues.
That probably has something to do with the ADHD diagnosis, but
of, of the, the just the urgencyof having to create something in
the moment is just an incrediblyclarifying factor for me.
And so, yeah, literally as long as I can, I remember even before
(06:17):
even technically, before I really started playing, I had
this this crappy little guitar from Target or something that
was out of tune and basically a toy.
And I had a little sister and I would like improvise deeply out
of tune nonsense lullabies for her when I was, you know, 7 or
something. So it's just always been there
(06:39):
and then. And I sort of didn't really
learn about that or didn't realize that was this massive
community of not only like jazz improvisers, but free
improvisers until college. I like, you know, found Ornette
Coleman's music and started really being like, wait, what
are, what's everyone else doing?Maybe there are other people who
(07:00):
want to do this with me. So you kind of like, as you
described ADHD, you kind of withyour hand, put it off to the
side, but I'm assuming that's not something you just put off
to the side. No, Yeah.
So it's just, yeah. But, you know, there's, there's
the mystery of where do all the things in my head go and where,
where do they come from? But it's.
(07:20):
Yeah, No, it is. It is actually very much not off
to the side. It is the central pillar desert
level. Collaboration is another kind of
key component of what you do. So putting that all together,
how does that work? I mean, you've, you've, you've
collaborated with some incredible artists, names that I
sometimes can't, I can't even pronounce Hildur.
(07:41):
Hildur Yeah, yeah, Composer of the Joker.
Vinnie Golia. Tony Mallaby, How do you
approach those collaborations, especially from artists with
such diverse musical backgrounds?
I mean, I think that that maybe one of the purposes of art is,
is, you know, personal expression and communication to
others on a on a more abstract level.
(08:05):
But I think that ultimately it'sjust, it's just people with
people. And I really don't feel
compelled by the, I mean, it's maybe a little bit of the
extreme, but the kind of fascistic compositional approach
of, of, you know, the composer is the final say has, you know,
all these. And like, I would much rather
(08:26):
curate just like a set of possibilities and then let
people live in them. So that that's kind of the core
of, you know, whether it's with Tony or Hildur or Vinnie or
whoever else, that it's meeting that person as the person they
are connecting with them on a regular human level.
(08:47):
That's in an in an honest level,like I'm not not the weirdest
person in the world. I'm also not the normalest
person in the world. And so I had to kind of learn to
like, not all right. I had to learn that it was
better for me to just be be myself really and know that I
can do that in good faith with other people.
(09:07):
And then they open up and then we form an actual bond.
And then the actual music makingis, is, is much more celebratory
and, and deeper. And you know, it's it's, you
know, if we talk about playing music and the kind of childlike
(09:28):
helmet of, of playing with people, it is kind of funny to
imagine like a bunch of kids showing up and being like,
hello, I am this is my name. This is your name.
Wonderful. That is play together.
Now, you know, which you can totally do and I've done a
million times, but you know, youwant to play with your friends.
And so, you know, even if I've never met somebody before, I'm
like, well, let's make friends. Let's become friends.
(09:48):
And then we'll then, then the collaboration happens on its
own. Yeah.
And is the best way to achieve that by just literally playing
like what's the? What is the way by which you
achieve that? Tell me.
Tell me what that process is. I think I think that the best
way to to do to do that process is to like share a meal together
(10:09):
or something, some like one of those just like really human
things, like, you know, going ona hike with people like or, or
sharing a meal. Honestly, it's probably anything
that's a good date, you know, orlike it's just some kind of,
Hey, who are you really? This is who I am really, you
(10:29):
know, doesn't have to be a big, like, here's all my trauma or or
something. But it's like, let me show you
the real shape and color of my energy.
And if you can show me yours andwe can see each other, then we
can. Then we can make music that is
meant to be made by us and not just our pair of aesthetics
(10:50):
being placed next to each other,which can be interesting too.
Yeah. So what was that first day like
with Hildur? That was just through kind of a,
a, a, a series of through through a, a proxy.
But there was a, a Avon kind. It was an incredible violist,
composer, improviser, and but sothat was for the Joker, the
(11:12):
first Joker score where Hilder had written these beautiful solo
cello lines. And she's a very idiosyncratic
way of playing. And so like, you know, all of
her like F sharps were like 7 cents sharp and her G sharps
were like 6 cents flat. And so she had all these solo
lines that she wanted us to to explode basically.
(11:36):
So Avent and I recorded like in unison with her and then at
every octave we could to take her single idiosyncratic line
and make it sound like, you know, a whole orchestra playing
that. And which was a little bit of a
nightmare just performatively. Because, you know, especially
(11:57):
any solo string player will tellyou, like, everyone has
different inflections, everyone has different, and matching
someone's exact inflections was really, really hard.
And we did it for hours and hours and hours and hours late
into the night. And then we like took a break at
1:00 in the morning. And there was this Cuban
restaurant that was still open. And we sat down and we were
(12:17):
eating dinner and talking. And then Flying Lotus sat down
next to us, realized we were talking about music.
And then we kind of ended up talking with him about music and
which was very invigorating. And then we kind of like went
back was like two or three in the morning and knocked the rest
of it out. But that was a really
interesting kind of form of collaboration because that was,
I mean, there was, there was very little of that that was me
(12:40):
other than the sound. But what it really was was like,
you have to see how this person plays, you're here, you know,
you have to really pay attentionto how this person is expressing
themselves and be present to that and, and meet them there
exactly there, which is I think kind of the fundamental, one of
the fundamental processes of collaboration with being able to
(13:01):
meet people wherever they are. I mean, collaboration and, and
improvisation probably involves a lot of experimentation.
Is it just one big experiment? Are you trying to replicate
things from previous experiments?
Like what? What's that?
That's. A good question.
Rocess And how do you push the boundaries of that, especially
with with the bass? I mean, the bass, I love the
(13:24):
bass because it's kind of a broken instrument.
Like it's the wrong size. There's no standardization.
There's, you know, like violins are standardized, cellos are
standardized, violas have a range, bases are a total free
reign. So they're kind of broken.
And because they're kind of broken, all of their little
intricacies, each instrument's little intricacies are so easy
(13:47):
to find. And so that sort of feels like
an infinite, you know, an infinite kind of like
exploration of this particular collection of wood.
And then in terms of experimentation and, and like
replication, I think that there is there is as much as certainly
five years ago I would have toldyou I was trying to never repeat
(14:07):
myself ever. Now a little older, I know that
that's not possible. And also no one likes that,
myself included. Like I the years I spent trying
to never repeat myself were a bummer, but now I think that it
is. The experimentation is sort of a
(14:27):
game of figuring out, well, I'llput it this way.
There's music that I make only for myself that no one else ever
hears. There's music that I make just
by myself that other people are supposed to hear.
There's music that I make that is meant to be with specific
(14:49):
other people or meant to be withanybody else.
And there is basically there is music that that can only be made
by any specific group of if that, you know, if a specific
group of people make it. And in a way that like nourishes
and excites everybody there. So I think the experimentation
(15:09):
is sort of like finding what people like to do, which usually
means you have to kind of get through a little bit of, you
know, the first couple times youplay might be, you know, kind of
dealing with people's expectations of themselves and
of you and what they think you want to hear or what they think
they should play, you know, thatkind of stuff.
(15:31):
But then when you can play around enough to find, OK, this
is the place where the three of our or the five of our or the
two of our whatever musical value systems slash areas of
interest overlap. It's yeah.
It's, I mean, it is kind of justit's getting to know people in
in the experimental and, you know, there's the their process
(15:53):
of connecting with someone as a human being.
And then, you know, there are plenty of human beings that I
connect to incredibly deeply. And then when we go to make
music together, we're just from very different places.
And sometimes that's fun to findthe, the place in between that.
And sometimes it's like this might be more work than it's
than it's worth maybe. But I think the the experiment,
(16:16):
I mean, it's, it's it's all one big experiment in the way that
like life is all one big experiment.
Yeah. You know, yes.
As we're experiencing it literally right now, when you're
creating or performing, how do you balance structure with
spontaneity? So that is kind of, especially
for improvisers, balancing structure and spontaneity is
kind of the the there's a never ending question of how much do
(16:41):
you ask of people? How much do you trust them?
Yeah. How of, if you're curating a set
of possibilities, how curated doyou want that to be?
And I think that at least where I'm at now, what I've found is
that most improvisers are helpedout, helped along, or the
process goes faster if they havea simple idea of somewhere to
(17:04):
start and a simple idea of somewhere to end.
And that that's what I've been kind of working with for the
last couple years. And after, you know, well over a
decade of like trying to to makethese beautiful, like sort of
semi graphic scores that represent improvisational things
that I put a lot of work in and then like kind of work, but also
would have worked if I just likeexplained them or like distilled
(17:27):
them down. You know, I think that there's
in any kind of compositional space there is and in some kind
of instincts to like, you know, to put something down in
notation or in to render the structure in some way that that
is itself like an artistic object that is representative of
(17:51):
what you want to do. Which is all well and good.
I realized at a certain point that the only thing that I
really cared about was the soundand the interaction, and that my
very complicated pseudographic scores were getting in the way
of people being comfortable. And they were like trying to
(18:12):
adhere to things that I wanted rather than just kind of feeling
what they were feeling inside the space that I gave them.
So. Yeah, I I've, I've found that
the the structure is, the structure is pretty, is pretty
minimal, but it is basically always helpful if if something's
there. Yeah.
How do you prepare for live performances of improvised
(18:32):
music, and how do you navigate the unpredictability of those
moments? My favorite part, the fear is
the real is the real thing in there.
Yeah, it's great. I mean, I preparing for
improvised performance is, you know, in every day, my entire
life kind of thing. Like of, you know, by the time
you start an improvised performance, everything that you
(18:54):
could have done to make it better has already happened.
So you just got to be in it and that's the best thing that you
can do in that moment. So everything you know, it's, it
is kind of this rather than if, you know, if I'm practicing like
a solo piece or something that'swritten where I'm like spending
a lot of time in that specific piece, being able to perform it,
(19:15):
you know, in kind of an acute instance.
Preparing for improvised performance is a lot more like
just making sure I've spent enough time with the instrument,
making sure that I'm that I've spent enough time kind of poking
and prodding at the boundaries of the things that I'm currently
working on, techniques or, or harmonic ideas or whatever.
(19:39):
And just being really in the general space of musical
creativity. Yeah.
So, which is obviously works forme because that can you can do
that in a million different ways.
So your music often feels like it's an exploration of emotion
and texture. What themes or ideas are you
trying to drive in your work andhow do you translate that into
(20:02):
to sound? So I, I've been thinking about
that a lot recently actually. And I, I saw a random, but when
the director, Akira Kurosawa gota honorary Oscar in 1990, when
he's being introduced, they, they referenced a quote from one
of his, from an interview with him where someone asked like,
(20:22):
oh, does your work all have a shared theme?
And he said, no, my work all hasa shared question, which is why
can't people be happier together?
And I that really hearing that, I was like, oh, that's also what
I'm trying to get at, or some version of that, of trying to
kind of understand the way people live their lives and the
(20:47):
conflicts that arise from those things and the confluences that
arise from those things. And so my music, I, I, what I
hope for it to be is, is there's, there's certainly like
an aspirational element in it oflike trying to, to interact in,
(21:08):
you know, maybe some kind of pseudo utopian way.
I mean, I think that the reason that that watch that listening
to people improvise or watching them improvise is compelling on
some inherent level is because at the highest levels, it's a
microcosm of living well together.
Do you ever fear that you just might hit a creative block where
the. Music stops.
(21:31):
No, because I don't really believe in that.
If you hit the place where it's like, oh, there's a block or, or
you know, or I'm like, oh, I don't know what I want to play
or I hate when I just played. Take a breath, lay up, take 510
seconds, which is what we shouldall do in life anyway, you know,
like where if you are starting to like really, if you're like
reaching like some, some huge prob or not even not a huge
(21:52):
problem because it's music. There's no such thing as a
musical big deal. You know, at least to me, you
know, you should just be able totake a second listen to what the
other people around you are doing and then how you can
contribute to that. Well, now you've just brought up
another element that we actuallyhaven't talked about how key is
listening to what you do. Oh my God, it is.
(22:13):
It is kind of the only thing like the and in in the the best
musical, whether you're actually, whether you're
performing like written music ornot, the best musical
experiences are had when you arelistening to yourself the least.
Like if you can have your ears zoom out and hear everyone, I
(22:34):
can hear yourself as part of that as opposed to like, OK, I
am really in touch with just what I am doing and I know it's
contributing, but I'm like really focused on what I'm doing
is basically always better if you are not only focused on
yourself or if you really if youare primarily focusing on what
is what is happening in the space around me.
(22:55):
So how do you strip that away? How do you strip that ego or
turn that ego down so that you can hear everyone else?
That's a long process. I think that's a really long
personal process. I mean, for me, I did that
through like years of not to sound like a, you know, I don't
know, pretentious already asshole person.
(23:16):
But like through like years of like trying to meditate, of
years of, of, you know, journaling, like of, of just, of
real life, being able to, to kind of see, see the ways that I
was getting in my own way. And then it's just kind of a
(23:36):
process of like, well, there's problems here.
This is an obstacle to, to me having a happier life or, or
let's, I mean before that, this is an obstacle to me being
happier with the musical performances and interactions I
have. And thankfully for me, I don't
know, this might be like kind ofan ADHD thing too or something.
Or like once I realize somethingis like an obstacle, I am just
(24:00):
like, give that thing no energy.Like, you know, the second, the
2nd, I have a self critical thought.
I have now trained myself to immediately just start focusing
on someone else and what they'replaying.
Because it's, it's not like you don't have to sit there and
process. Like no, no, no, I'm OK.
No, I'm I've, if this is, this is fine.
(24:20):
Like just don't, don't think about the thing.
Think about like shift your focus to the thing that you
should be focusing on that, you know, intellectually at least.
Or maybe you have a little bit of that kind of emotional muscle
memory built in of like, oh, I know this thing will make me
feel better. I know this thing will give me
an idea. And then you do that and you
just do it. I mean, it's unfortunately
(24:42):
there's kind of a, there's a Nike miss to it all of just like
just. Do it.
Music is changing. It has changed.
It's I'm sure you're probably talking about or wrestling with
AI and what's that's going to mean?
How do you figure all that out? How do you meander in between
all of those worlds? The world, the world is going to
change. The world is going to change
(25:03):
around all of us in every way. And I think all that we can
expect ourselves to do is try to, like, live as honestly
through that as we can. And like, there are always going
to be people who are like, you know, for one reason or another,
don't value artists. I think basically everyone
(25:25):
values art even if they don't think they do.
But there are plenty of people who do not give a shit about
artists. And those people love AI music.
Someone's going to like, people are going to use it.
I can't control that. I can control, you know, for I
had AI had a concert that and the promoter emailed me and he
(25:46):
was like, Hey, can we use, I made this AI image for the
poster. Can we use it?
No, sorry. Like I happily would have
connected you with a friend thatwho is a designer who you could
have paid 100 bucks or whatever.And so I can control those
little areas and, you know, I'm certainly not using AI
(26:08):
generatively in my music ever. There is a new AI mastering
program that really does get youmost of the way there with
pretty much a click of a button.And that's like, that's just a,
that's a practical tool in a, ina different way.
But, but in terms of content andin terms of creation, yeah, the
actual creation, I, it's just, it has no place for me.
(26:31):
And that's I, I, I would question anybody who thinks it
has a place for them, but I'm not them.
Let's go back to 11 year old Ren.
OK, who picks up that bass and joins the band?
FUNK. What was it again?
Dysfunction, yeah. What would you tell 11 year old
(26:53):
Ren? What advice would you give him
knowing what you know now? It's a good question.
I think it would be. I think it would just be trust
yourself. There was a long time.
I'm very happy with where I am now musically.
I mean, you know, it, which has been hard earned or and been on
whatever level, just internally even.
(27:15):
But there I spent a long time especially because like I didn't
have a teacher. I didn't have a a teacher until
I got to grad school on upright bass.
So and I've been playing it for,you know, I don't know, 13 years
by that point. So I'm mostly self-taught and I
spent, you know, the basically the entirety of my 20s freaking
out about lacking the pedigree. And I, but I was really
(27:37):
concerned about that and really upset about it for years.
And then at some point, I mean, I think also partially with the
ADHD thing, I get bored of just having the same conversations or
thinking the same thing and I just have to go.
I just can't think about this anymore.
And I stopped thinking about that actually during the
pandemic. Everything shut down.
(27:58):
I made my first solo bass recordthat I recorded for $0.00 in my
kitchen and that is the record that I, at least up until that
point, was absolutely the most satisfied by that made the most
money that like I got the most positive feedback about and it
was just me playing whatever I felt like playing that day.
(28:21):
I just kind of did it every day,recorded something every day for
like a month and just did whatever I wanted, you know,
without, but not enough, whatever I want, just know
whatever I feel like right away.And it was just so much more
successful and it felt so much better and people liked it so
much more. And I, I was so happy with it
(28:44):
that, that I was like, oh, OK, like I've been doing something
right all along. What does it mean to be
unapologetically creative? I think it means knowing that an
apology in any kind of in creativity is just completely
unnecessary and unrelated where you know, like people talk about
(29:05):
the, the kind of like being a vessel or whatever.
I think about it like I dig around and then I find stuff and
the idea that that I would be like, Oh, I'm sorry is like,
why? What, what it what is there to
possibly apologize for if you'retrying to put something
beautiful into the world? So, you know, like, yeah, people
have have told me I've put out that solo record and I met up
(29:26):
with a friend and he was like, congratulations on releasing the
record. It's not really for me.
I was like, I don't care that that it truly, it's not even
like, oh, I don't care. Like, I, you know, it's not the
Don Draper. I don't think about you at all.
It's it's just doesn't even enter into the equation.
It's about like, if you are living a, you know, a nourishing
(29:47):
artistic life, you're just trying to put beautiful things
into the world. Miller Wren leaves us with a
portrait of music as dialogue rooted in listening, trust, and
vulnerability. His perspective on
improvisation, collaboration, and community shows how
(30:09):
creativity is less about perfection and more about
presence. It's a reminder that art becomes
most powerful when it's shared honestly and openly, inviting
others into the process. Thanks for listening to
Unapologetically Created. Be sure to follow the show and
stay tuned for more insightful conversations in the episodes
(30:31):
ahead. To learn more about the Vermont
College of Fine Arts, visit vcfa.edu.
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