The Art of Self-Evolution Beyond Toxic Traits ft. Mackenna - Ep.097

Special thanks to Mackenna for being a part of this episode of Unattainable Podcast Show 

Our conversation with MacKenna explores the journey of personal evolution through toxic traits, dating experiences, and finding authentic connection in Los Angeles.

• Every sign has their own toxic trait, and evolution means learning how to react differently rather than eliminating these traits completely
• McKenna identifies her attachment to past trauma and tendency to project as her most challenging patterns
• The psychology behind "fuckboy" behavior often stems from seeking validation after being hurt in the past
• LA club culture creates a survival-of-the-fittest dating environment that feels like returning to primal instincts
• Many women transition from dating hypermasculine men to "soft boys" seeking safety, but often miss the attraction
• Traditional relationship dynamics can provide structure and comfort when balanced with modern equality
• Finding someone who balances masculinity with emotional intelligence is rare but deeply fulfilling
• The challenge of dating someone who tries to "save you" when both parties aren't emotionally ready
• The question of whether some relationships fail because they're the wrong person or simply the wrong timing

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
The toxicity.
Every sign has their own toxictrait and I've kind of come to
realize that changing, becomingbetter, evolving doesn't
necessarily mean I'm going tostop having this trait that
people deem toxic, and ratherI'm going to learn how to react.
My most toxic trait is myattachment to my past.

(00:23):
My past and my projection.
I feel personally attackedright now.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
But the most beautiful girls.
When they're you know 21, 22,23, they'd always be dating some
like normal looking dude.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
They're beautiful with me, right?
Because whether they have goodintentions or not, they're
always going to be, you know,open to the opportunity of
choosing to do it.
So I'm creating that positiveexperience, even if we don't
have it.
Whatever performance I'mputting on, I need to stick to
this performance, and so I feellike a lot of people wouldn't be
honest in that.

(01:01):
How many hearts have you brokenthis summer?
Because I can tell you, I'veprobably broken a lot and it
breaks my heart.
It even broke my heart at thetime, but I was a total fuck
girl.
There's so much drama thathappens.
Women get paid to go to partiesbecause they don't want to go
to the parties, and that'satmosphere modeling.
So what they do is they'regoing to get paid to go to these

(01:23):
events just so that they'llfill up the room.
That's all that it is.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
So the problem is nowadays, with social media,
everything, every girl is hot.
Be like me on tiktok, be afemale empowerment, be a strong,
independent woman.
I'm like great right.
But the problem is girls often,often want this boss bitch
attitude and they want to takethe masculine attitude of the

(01:48):
boss right, but they don't wantthe Responsible, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
I feel bad saying this, but I think it's smarter
for them to know that he'sactually pandering to a very
common denominator.
Being high value doesn't meanbeing inconsiderate and being an
asshole right.
Being high value like who wantsto pay a lot for an asshole
that's not high value.

(02:13):
That's not valuable to me.
Being a douchebag and cheatingand all of these things like
that's not valuable welcome tounattainable glad to have you
with us.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
I'm your host, zach Evans, and first of all, thank
you to all of our listeners.
We have been getting a ton ofengagement over the last couple
months and we've got to thankall of you guys out there for
that.
Today we've got a special gueston the show.
This is McKenna McKenna, whydon't you go ahead and introduce
yourself to the audience yourname, what you do and your star
sign?

Speaker 1 (02:42):
I'm mckenna um.
I'm a caregiver and a writer bytrade and I'm a tourist tourist
interesting why?

Speaker 2 (02:52):
is that I've I've dated a couple tourists in my
life very, very fun um, and alsovery bad for my mental health.
You guys have cost me a lot ofmoney in therapy I get it.

Speaker 1 (03:05):
I get it.
We can be a little um you'renot supposed to be a little bit
of a force a force, andsometimes that's an interesting
way to put it a force, you knowsome people you know they can
handle what's it called the whenyou're flying in a in a jet,
the g's the g4.
The g4 is right, some people canhandle the g4 and some people

(03:28):
they need it a little lower.
But I realize that you know,without having to sacrifice
yourself if you can find someone, that I mean.
Number one, the toxicity.
Every sign has their own toxictrait and and I've I've kind of
come to realize that changing,becoming better, evolving

(03:49):
doesn't necessarily mean I'mgonna stop having this trait
that people seem as, or peopledeem um toxic, and rather I'm
going to learn how to react tothe situations.
Um, with, excuse me, I got alittle nervous.

Speaker 2 (04:07):
All good.
Well, what's an example of atrait that you think you have
that is toxic?

Speaker 1 (04:14):
I am.

Speaker 2 (04:15):
By the way, I don't judge.
I used to be extremely toxic.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
I am, I would say let's think.
I'm not thinking because Ican't think of any.
I'm thinking because I'm tryingto pick.
I see, I guess probably my mosttoxic trait is my attachment to
my past, my trauma and myprojection.

(04:43):
I like to project, Ioverananalyze, and that's both
the blessing and a curse.
It's a super double-edged swordyeah, so I think my my
attention to detail sometimescauses me to overanalyze someone
in an ocd kind of like in acompulsive way, so I see if that
makes sense it doesn't makesense.

Speaker 2 (05:04):
I'm, I'm a pisces okay, okay, which ironically, I
have no characteristics of apisces.
We're supposed to be veryemotional and in our feelings
I'm like the opposite.
I'm very just like and I wentthrough a very toxic fuckboy era
.

Speaker 1 (05:19):
I'm a recovering fuckboy, yeah oh, now I'm very
shy and romantic.
I could say the same myselfback in my villain era.

Speaker 2 (05:24):
Yeah, back in my villain era I was.
I'm very shy and romantic.
I could say the same withmyself.
Back in my villain era, yeah,back in my villain era I was.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
I was very toxic, um, but not like these gen z
amateur fuck boys, you seenowadays right you know, with
the bird scooters and the youwere more more of a vet, more of
a professional.
What does that?
What does that look like?

Speaker 2 (05:41):
y'all fall for guys that have beds that touch two
walls.
I do not know what a nightstandis like.
Stop dating these losers like Idon't understand that's.

Speaker 1 (05:50):
I feel personally attacked right now, um thinking
of my ex who had a really big tvbefore he had a couch yeah,
yeah, stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah, or you'll meet guys that it's like they drive
some like fancy car and theylive in like a shitty apartment
and you're like this doesn'tmatch because it's the manager's
model.

Speaker 1 (06:08):
It's either.

Speaker 2 (06:08):
It's either their friend's car or they spend all
their money leasing a car andthey have none left over for the
rent and eventually the girlwill figure out that you don't
have money.

Speaker 1 (06:16):
It is what it is oh, yeah, of course, and it's either
going to be through what shecan see or your attitude yeah,
you know how old are you.

Speaker 2 (06:24):
You're very confusing I'm so confusing.

Speaker 1 (06:26):
I know I'm.
How old do you think I am?

Speaker 2 (06:30):
personality.
You seem like you're like 30but, you look like you're like
20 with a fake id I don't knowwhether to talk about investing
or doing molly at disneylandit's very confusing.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
I'm turning 28 in apr .
April 28.
Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 2 (06:44):
Thank you so much what's the oldest and the
youngest that you've dated?

Speaker 1 (06:48):
oh in relation to your age at the time okay, when
I was 19, when I was 19, I dateda 32 year old and, um, he kind
of had the mind of a child inretrospect.
And then, in terms of youngestdating wise, you know, I've had

(07:16):
flings that were young, so likemaybe 21 or 22, and they acted a
little more mature, um,compared to the, the older 32
year old guy.
Yeah, ironically, yeah it'sinteresting.

Speaker 2 (07:34):
So that doesn't surprise me about you, because,
despite all of your obvious redflags being notorious, right you
seem to have an understandingof a self-awareness and, uh,
more intelligent understandingof the world, I would say, than
most people we have on.

(07:55):
And okay, so I owned a companyin the modeling industry for a
decade and we used to call thisthing hot guy phase, where all
the new models, when they're 18,19, 20, right, they'd always be
dating some young hot guy,right, and these guys looked
exactly the same, like theTikTok hair dangly earring.
They're literally like clonesof each other.
We can't tell them apart.
But the most beautiful girls,when they're, you know, 21, 22,

(08:19):
23, they'd always be dating somelike normal looking dude.
They'd always be dating somelike normal looking dude, like
some dude, maybe dad bod, maybelike 30, 32, uh, somebody who,
like, if you put on a brownshirt and dropped off your ups
package like you wouldn't besurprised, but it would be
someone who's extremelyintelligent or ambitious or
successful, usually a little bitolder sure, sure, I mean I

(08:45):
would say that it's it.

Speaker 1 (08:48):
They're beautiful with brains, right?
Because, whether they or not,they have good intentions or not
, they're at least going to be,you know, open to the
opportunity of choosing to bewith someone.
That will create a net positiveexperience even if they don't
end up together at the end yeahI feel like older people tend to
generally be a little moreconsiderate sometimes you seem

(09:15):
like you.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
You've uh experienced your share of toxic la guys I
wish I could say I didn't wish Icould say I didn't.
Let me ask you this.
So I grew up very with a veryreligious family, so I was very
nice guy, treat everybody verypolitely.
I was taught to.
Every girl said you're such asweetheart.
And then they would friends onme, date my friends, cheat on me

(09:39):
, whatever.
And then I got so sick of it Iturned into the biggest fuck boy
, sociopath, narcissist, assholeon the planet.
And now I've kind of graduatedfrom that stage and I'm kind of
like I can see the whole picturenow.
And I've always wonderedbecause when I would meet girls
as a fuck boy, I was always avery honest fuck boy.
I would say, hey, I don't wanta relationship and they would

(10:02):
never believe me.
And I'm like.
I'm like like when you startdating a fuck boy, do you kind
of know he's a fuck boy in theback of your mind but you're
just attracted to it becauseit's exciting and fun, or is it?
You think he's a sweet, niceguy and then you get tricked by
it.
Like how does that work?

Speaker 1 (10:19):
it depends on your experience okay because for me
at this stage, if you had spokeokay, fuck boy, was like one of
my types, like five months agookay okay, I knew what they were
okay I knew what I was, fullygoing into the lines, then you
know their lines and I knoweverything you don't need to.

(10:39):
Just yes, I know you don't wanta relationship, I don't want to
be in a relationship with youeither.
Right, it was after my breakup,just like you, that I actually
decided to see the world burnmyself and I broke a lot of
hearts myself.
So in that time you know,that's when I was like you know
fuckboy's a type, I know whattype that is.
But prior to that, when you'reyounger and less experienced and

(11:03):
more naive, then it comesacross as charming because I
would say maybe even the waythat, like media or Hollywood or
society kind of like depictsthe chase and like the alert of
the chase and, and you know that, just kind of this unspoken
thought that everybody wants tobe chased.

(11:25):
You know, and people usuallysay that about men, right, it's
like they think that because Ireject them, then that means
that I want them or they want meto chase them, which is totally
inaccurate, I would say, mostof the time, unless the girl is
incredibly toxic.

(11:46):
But I would say I have a storyabout that, yeah yeah, but I
would say that you know, itreally depends on your
experience.
Have you been exposed?
Your exposure not even yourexperience like your exposure.
Have you seen this before?
If you have, then you're gonnaknow exactly what to expect now
it's a pattern now.
It's a pattern.
If you have it you might getscrewed over, and if you have
and you know what to expect butyou choose to be willfully

(12:08):
ignorant, then I mean you'regonna actively choose to not see
it coming and at the end youwill have known.
You saw it coming the entiretime and it's just a vicious
cycle of fuckboys.
So, but my heart goes out tofuckboys and I I know what it
feels like to just want to watchthe world burn around you.

Speaker 2 (12:26):
Well, it's not even that the reality is, and I
didn't realize it until I gotout of the fuckboy stage.
I could look back at my formerself is every fuckboy has a
villain origin story.

Speaker 1 (12:37):
Right.

Speaker 2 (12:38):
And every fuckboy has been fucked over in his past.
And because of that, there'sthis need for validation and
acceptance.
Right in his past and becauseof that there's this need for
validation and acceptance.
Right, and because of that hefeels the need to prove to
himself and to others that girlslike him.
And that's how it was for me.
It felt like every girl.
I needed to prove that shelikes me, okay.

(12:58):
Well, the only way to provethat, if she hooks up with me,
okay, now I feel validated butthat's all I wanted yeah, that
is what it is, because if youthink about it, people think
it's about the sex.
It's not about the sex.
In fact, you could have waymore sex by just getting in a
relationship.

Speaker 1 (13:13):
Totally.

Speaker 2 (13:13):
And then just like having sex three times a day
with the fucking girl you'redating.

Speaker 1 (13:16):
Totally.

Speaker 2 (13:17):
But it's about the validation of I'm good enough.
I'm good enough, see, I'm goodenough.

Speaker 1 (13:20):
You know, yeah, I would say that that's definitely
not a fuck boy specific thing.
Actually, I went through thatmyself.
I think that's really prevalentactually for all types of people
.
Women I think that's reallyprevalent actually for all types
of people.
Women too, I mean, I feel likea lot of women.
You know there's so muchpressure to just be good, you

(13:41):
know, be a good girl, eventhough we want to, you know,
live our lives.
But there's still this likeunderlying pressure of like,
whatever performance I'm puttingon, I need to stick to this
performance.
And so I feel like a lot ofpeople wouldn't be honest in
that how many hearts have youbroken this summer?
Because I can tell you I'veprobably broken a lot and it

(14:01):
breaks my heart.
In retrospect, it even broke myheart at the time.
But I was a total fuck girl, Iguess is like a good way to say
it Like after my last long-termrelationship I was always in
long-term relationships Moved tolast long-term relationship I
was always in long-termrelationships moved to LA.
I was going to all the clubsand all the afters and all this
and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and it was just a hundred
miles per hour and I decidedlove hurt me so badly that I'm

(14:28):
going to be one of the guys I'mgoing to be.
I'm I'm not going to wait for aguy to come up to me at the bar
?
I'm not going to do that.
I to come up to me at the bar?
I'm not going to do that.
I will.
I took everything that I wantedwith zero remorse and that ended
up, you know, hurting me later.
It makes me sad because youknow, I am still a sensitive
person and it was just a phasethat I was going through.
But fuck boys, that experienceis not.

(14:51):
You know.
If that's the case, theneveryone there's so many fuck
boys, so many people are fuckboys if that's what it is that
they're craving is validation,so they use sex to be able to
get that, which is just, it'ssad on, just like it is, and
it's kind of a weird thing where, at the same time, it's like
it's like do I regret it?

Speaker 2 (15:11):
right?
People ask you, do you regretthings in life?
And yeah, to some extent I do.
But also I think I had to gothrough that phase to finally
figure out oh shit, I'm good, Idon't need the validation
anymore.
Okay, I get it, I get girls,I'm fine.
Like is, I don't have to like.
Like, how many girls do youhave to hook up with before?
It's yo bro, I hooked up withthis girl.

(15:32):
Oh man, she's hot, like before.
That's just like who cares,like who gives a fuck yeah, I
think for girls sometimes it's a.

Speaker 1 (15:40):
It's slightly different where it's that we
still have, not for everybody,but for at least the specific
subset of women that I'mspeaking about including myself
um where I think that it's Ijust lost my train of thought.

Speaker 2 (15:56):
I actually want to get back to something.
When you mentioned sometimesyou reject guys and they think
that's an invitation to keepgoing.
I never understood this untilthe first like really beautiful
girl that I dated.
And it was funny because, youknow, my friends are asking oh,
who's this new girl you'redating?
What's her Instagram?
Blah, blah, blah, show them theInstagram.
One of my friends are asking oh, who's this new girl you're

(16:16):
dating?
What's her Instagram?
Blah, blah, blah, show themInstagram.
One of my buddies is like yo, Imet that girl.
She's a huge bitch, all thisstuff.
And I was confused because I'mlike she's like the biggest
sweetheart I know, like she'slike an absolute sweetheart, and
I didn't understand it till onenight.
We go out and it's her friend'sbirthday.
We end up at like Warwick orsome shit, and this guy comes up
to try to hit on her and I seeher like very brutally reject

(16:41):
this guy, where it's kind oflike a thanks back, turn Right,
and I remember thinking, okay,what would you expect her to do?
Like, be nice to this guy, havea fucking 30 minute
conversation where you're boredas hell Cause he's some like
loser guy, and then you have toreject him at the end anyway,
and now he's angry and butthurtbecause you rejected him.
And now you're like have somedude following you around the

(17:02):
club.

Speaker 1 (17:04):
Isn't it better to just?

Speaker 2 (17:05):
fucking rip the bandaid off at the beginning.
I would rather have a girl behonest with me, you know, than
the other way around.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
I than the other way around.
I would say yes in this, inthis, in this context, it
depends, because girls are arebeing opportunists in the same
way that men are.
In those scenarios, men want touse women and the means of
getting them is through gettingwhatever buying them things,
getting the alcohol, put it, getthem in the table, the bottles,
blah, blah, blah, and they wantsomething in return.
So well, the girls walk in andthey know that men want that,
and so they're like you knowwhat?

(17:38):
I have my own mission.
All these guys want to use me,right?
So hey, if he's gonna buy me adrink, I'm gonna let him buy me
a drink because I want a drink.
Does that make sense?
So it's kind of like I know I'mgonna walk in there and I'm
gonna someone's gonna try to useme for my body, for my time,
whatever it is, and they'regonna think that a drink is
enough.
Well, they should know that.

(17:59):
I know that that's gonna happen, and because I know that's
gonna happen, I'm gonna go inthere into this really hostile
environment and I'm just gonnabe grabby as well.
Sorry, I'm just gonna be grabbyas well and I'm just gonna take
what I want to.
I don't go into a club with abig loving heart.
I go into a club with, likemajor bitch face.
Don't talk to me, buy my frienda drink or get the hell out of
here.

Speaker 2 (18:18):
It's yeah, survival of the fittest.

Speaker 1 (18:20):
But that's super how it is here too.
But for in terms of like theguys following you after that,
like clear rejection, you can besuper, super clear and then the
entire night they're just kindof like in your vicinity, like a
10- foot vicinity like allnight.

Speaker 2 (18:35):
One time my friends from wisconsin came up and like
visited me and I like took themout and they're like I love them
to death but they don't knowwhat the fuck they're doing.
And one of my friends liketalking to this girl and like I
can see I'm like at the table.
I can see, I'm like okay, she'snot into him, like the body
language is so obvious to me,and she like leaves or whatever,
and he's like, yeah, she wentto the bathroom.

Speaker 1 (18:55):
She said she's coming right back I'm like, bro, she's
not coming back.

Speaker 2 (18:59):
And then it was like 20 minutes later he's like
looking for I'm like bro, she'snot coming back.
Like this is an excuse.
Like how do you not read this?
Like this is basic socialintelligence?

Speaker 1 (19:08):
yeah, 101, I think it just it's such a, it's not a,
it's not a classy, it's not aclassy environment.
It's not a well thought out.
People don't go there withthese wonderful intentions.
In fact, it's like a devil'splayground, you know if you
think about it like how manywholesome Warwick parties have
you been to?

Speaker 2 (19:27):
I think it's, though, what I like about it in a way
and I don't club hardly at allanymore, I like house parties, I
like more like stuff like that,and I don't club hardly at all
anymore.
I like house parties, I likemore like stuff like that but it
is like a microcosm of like.
I almost feel like it takes usback to like caveman days, and
it's just like people just kindof like go for what they want.
Everybody's kind of drunk, likeguys are just trying to talk to

(19:48):
the hottest girls, girls aretrying to like extract the most
resources out of guys.
It's almost like back to likeliterally like caveman.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
Yeah, and it's that's a really great way to put it
it's, it's, it's really simple.
It's pretty simple.
When you go to a club there'san expectation on the both male
and women's parts.
Generally you walk in with thisexpectation.
If you meet great people,that's wonderful, but most

(20:15):
people that especially in lathat go out it's to make an
appearance and it's forsomething people don't don't
just do stuff for no reasonnowadays right there's something
that someone's gonna get.
Who's gonna be there?
You know what I mean.
That's usually what it is.
Who's gonna be there?
And or what afters?
Are we gonna take the hot girlswe're gonna meet here to
afterward?

Speaker 2 (20:30):
you know and so you understand the club scene yeah,
that's literally and it's.

Speaker 1 (20:33):
It's just scouting the whole time, and so the women
that have been in the sceneenough know that, and so that's
why they walk in and don't havea problem saying, yeah, you can
buy me a drink.
No, we're not going to go home,I'm not going to.
No, I'm not going to go homewith you.
No, I don't even have to talkto you.
And if you still want to buy mea drink, that's fine, that's
your prerogative.
But I just set my boundaryRight and I'm not a bitch for

(20:53):
doing that.
Because why do you want to buyme a drink?
You want to buy me a drinkbecause you're a nice guy and
you think you know I might be anice girl.
No, that's not what it is, notat the clubs, you know, and at
least if that might not be trueall the time, but that's the
safest perspective to have.

Speaker 2 (21:16):
I have this saying that, uh, it's all fair and love
and war, right.
It's like if you go to war youcan't say, oh, they're cheating,
because they're like hiding inthe trees and shooting us.
It's like, no, it's war, bitchlike and that's how.
Like because I used to.
When I first moved here, I wasvery jaded because I got like
culture shock of like.
Oh yeah, people are like kindof full of shit.

Speaker 1 (21:30):
Everybody's trying to like lie to you.
Everyone's selling themselves.
And now I'm kind of like hey,it's the fucking jungle.

Speaker 2 (21:35):
This is la.
It's the hardest place in theworld to date.
It's like it's like if you playa video game, it's like level
100, final boss, but it's like Iwant to live in a place where
it's like the top level, like Ilike the excitement of of the
trying to reach the top andeverybody's hustling and
grinding and.
And yeah, some people are fullof shit, but you fucking learn

(21:56):
how to read them and it's justlike this environment.

Speaker 1 (21:58):
I love that the speed , the time, the tempo.

Speaker 2 (22:03):
I guess you would say it's fast paced, it's a really
fast pace.

Speaker 1 (22:07):
There's a lot of energy.
It's really high energy, superhigh energy, to the point where
you're almost in your own bubbleof sorts.
No matter how, in la and allthese parties, you've almost now
created a new weird littlebubble that's in the middle of
everything.
You know this really strangeclicky microcosm where only you
can come.

Speaker 2 (22:26):
She can't go unless she pays a hundred bucks kind of
a yeah, yeah, oh, you can bringher what's their instagram,
trust me, I so.
I was a promoter for like fivemonths.

Speaker 1 (22:36):
I hated it, wow, okay .

Speaker 2 (22:38):
And I mean I can't tell you how many Because I
thought it'd be fun.
Don't get me wrong.
It was fun, you get laid a lot,whatever, but it's not like
you're really partying thoughthe whole time, you're just like

(22:59):
problems.
And she got mad at me because Itold her not to bring the
friend.
She brought her anyway.
The door guy doesn't let her in.
It's not my fault, I told younot to bring her.

Speaker 1 (23:04):
I don't make the rules right it is what it is,
yeah and then you don't get paidenough for that and that yeah,
and then it's not fun anymore.
And then you're like why don'tI just go to my friend's table?

Speaker 2 (23:12):
And I love like waking up early, working on my
business.
I'm more of that kind of guy.
Yeah, and I looked at thepromoter life like man that
looks great and, yeah, it'sflashy, but at the end of the
day it was like not fulfilling.

Speaker 1 (23:24):
It's not fulfilling and it's exhausting, and the
people that you're around arenot fulfilling and they're
exhausting.
I'd never worked as a promoter,but I was a waitress for a
strip club in Portland when Ifirst turned 18.
And so I never danced myself butthat was gnarly.
I was an 18 and up after hours,so yeah, but I would say that

(23:48):
like the allure of like party,party, party, club, club club
all the time party, party, party, club, club, club, all the time
it's almost like.
It's almost like if you've seenlike ender's game or like uh
ready player one, you know howthey have their, they're in
their fake vr, blah, blah andthey take it off and they are,
like you know, old and broken,decrepit and obese and whatever,
and like they can't moveanymore because their bodies

(24:09):
atrophied from sitting there forso long.
That's almost how it felt.
Like for me when I got out ofthe party scene was like every
night I hated.
You know what I hated.
I hated coming home at likeseven or eight while everyone
was getting up to go to work.
I hated seeing people up andready for their days when I was

(24:29):
exhausted and, like you know,probably like you know, coming
down from drugs or drinking orsomething, just like in a really
bad headspace.
And that to me was like once Istopped partying, which I had to
really just remove myselfcompletely from everybody.
Like everybody, I don't talk toliterally anyone, I cut everyone

(24:51):
off, and when I after I didthat, then I started having days
again where I was like oh, youknow, like I can the sun's up I
can go take a walk to thegrocery store and then, you know
, later tonight I can go havedinner and I'm not going to be
feeling strung out and anddepressed and in drama there's
so much drama that happens.

(25:12):
People in the club scenes liveoff of drama, like otherwise.
It's boring.
There's always got to be somekind of chaos, yeah you know,
interesting.

Speaker 2 (25:23):
How was the?
I'm curious, how have youexperienced the whole sugar
daddy scene in la at all?
Have you tried it?
Do you have friends who havetried it?

Speaker 1 (25:30):
I've.
I have friends who have triedit.
I I've been like curious aboutit.
No, I've never been on likeactual sugar dates before, but I
have done like atmospheremodeling.
So basically they'll just payyou Don't worry, I don't look
like this when I do it, but theypay you to just, you know, fill
up a party or you know there'sa dinner or something and we

(25:54):
need to fill up seats, thingslike that.
And I've only done it withgirlfriends, but there was never
any sex involved.

Speaker 2 (25:58):
Yeah yeah.
That is a misconception.
People think that atmospheremodeling is either fake or like
oh no, but they have to have sex.
I'm like no, I know a lot ofgirls.

Speaker 1 (26:07):
they literally just go out People women get paid to
go to parties because they don'twant to go to the parties, and
that's atmosphere modeling.
So what they do is they'regoing to get paid to go to these
events just so that they'llfill up the room.
That's all that.
It is it's.
And they do that for awardshows, like they do that for you
know, all the big award showson tv when they have people fill

(26:28):
up.
When someone walks away,someone fills in their space.
It's kind of the same idea where, if you got a bunch of, you
know you're having a businessmeeting and there's a bunch of
men here and they're all olderand not very nice to look at,
and maybe there are a few womenthat might be a little
uncomfortable to be there.
It would be really convenientto have atmosphere models, which

(26:49):
are girls that are paid to goand look like they're having a
good time at your party.
You know so and you don't haveto have sex with people and you
can also meet people and havesex with them, not for money at
these parties.
It's really just.
It's a gig where you go andpretend to have a good time.
You can even have a good timesometimes.
You just get paid to have agood time.

Speaker 2 (27:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:08):
But that's about as close as I've personally gotten
to that Interesting.
Just because you know, myfamily is the third generation
has been here, so I'm the thirdgeneration.
I guess my grandpa came here in95.
And so we're pretty in Boston.
Yeah, so we're pretty like in,rooted in LA, and it's a little

(27:29):
bit more conservative.
So I would probably just notwant to.

Speaker 2 (27:35):
Yeah, I'm the same way.

Speaker 1 (27:36):
My parents are from.

Speaker 2 (27:36):
Wisconsin.
I got accused of being a sugardaddy once.

Speaker 1 (27:40):
I've never done it that doesn't sound like an
insult to me.
You look like you take care ofwomen.
You're very generous.

Speaker 2 (27:49):
So I was raised very chivalrous, right, my dad is old
school school.
Tell me, if you take a girl ona date, I'm fucking paying for
it.
Right?
If I'm walking on the sidewalk,you know I'm walking on the the
roadside.
So if a car comes and stop thecar with one hand, you know,
protect my girl with the other.
Unless it's a g wagon, thenit's like use the girl as a
human shield, protect myself, ofcourse, administer cpr later.

(28:11):
Save the day.
Not all heroes work.

Speaker 1 (28:12):
Sure sure.

Speaker 2 (28:15):
And so if I'm traveling which I like to travel
a lot I'm going to Europe orAustralia or Asia or something
I'm usually taking the girl I'mdating and I'm paying for the
whole thing.
Like I would feel weird as aman being like hey, like here's
a Venmo request, did you get thevenmo request for the 87 for
the airbnb?
Like I would just feel weirdabout that.

(28:37):
And so my friend who's likeshe's like a master level sugar
baby, she has like 10 sugardaddies and like it's like an
entire business for her rightand in front of all my friends.
She's like zach, you knowyou're a sugar daddy and she
goes zach.
Every guy pays for girls in oneway or another.
Maybe it's drinks, maybe it'sdinners, maybe it's trips, maybe
it's bags.

Speaker 1 (28:58):
She's like there's just high class and low class
sugar daddies, but everybody's asugar daddy oh sure, well, if
you put it in in that way, Imean sure I could see that that
makes sense where.
But you know it's definitelymutually.
You know there's a mutualbenefit that you get from.
You know men may provide in oneway, but women definitely

(29:19):
provide.
So that's why the whole 50-50thing also doesn't really make
so much sense to me as a moretraditional woman myself.

Speaker 2 (29:26):
Okay, so you typically like traditional
relationships?
Yeah, I do.

Speaker 1 (29:29):
It's easier for me.
Okay, everyone can do whateverthe hell they want, right?
Um, as a woman, my choice is Iprefer to be in more traditional
relationships.
That doesn't mean there can'tbe two incomes.
That doesn't mean, you know,there's not.
It's not like this by the bookhas to be done this way.
But there are things I like todo and there are things that
some men like to do, and Iprefer prefer to be, you know,

(29:50):
with someone that it works.
I like to be a homemaker, I loveto cook, I want to clean up
after my partner.
You know I like to be that kindof like traditional wife, but
at the same time, I'm not, youknow, I'm a modern person, a
modern woman, and so it's notgoing to be black and white, but
I do like the traditionalgender roles.
I, but I do like thetraditional gender roles.

(30:13):
I was raised with thetraditional gender roles.
Do I think that everyone shouldbe able to have their own
things that they can feeledified and proud of themselves
for?
Absolutely.
Do I think people should relyon each other?
No, however, for me personally,I like the feeling of there
being like a protector and anurturer, like for me that that

(30:33):
and and and those aren'tmutually exclusive to each other
, right, there's just that'skind of like.
The main role is, like youalways like, look up and you
both feel safe, because thosehappen to be things that you
want is to feel like there isthis protection and and.
For a lot of men that are morein traditional relationships,
they want to feel nurtured.
Um, for me, that I justpersonally prefer that.

(30:56):
You know, I've tried the payinghalf of the rent, me having a
full-time job, them having afull-time job and I I distance
myself when that happens.
It because it just doesn't feellike a relationship to me
anymore.
It almost just feels like aroommates that have sex
sometimes because we're notgoing to do it for long, because
we're probably resenting eachother at this point.

(31:16):
But no judgment to any, anybodywho has, whatever you know what.
However, you know what thewhole feminism issue happening
where it's like, oh, as afeminist, you must act this way,
totally just defeats the wholepurpose of feminism in the first
place.
So I, as myself, mckenna, Iprefer more traditional
relationships because that'swhere I feel safest and more

(31:38):
comfortable, um, and where Ifeel like it's more sustainable
for myself and my family in thelong term.
Um, I also feel like it's alittle more organized, but
that's also not true foreverybody, but for me personally
it kind of comes with thisbuilt-in structure.
That's a little bit helpful, ifthat makes sense.

Speaker 2 (31:54):
Yeah so the problem is, nowadays, with social media
and everything, right, everygirl is taught be like beyonce
right.
Tiktok videos, femaleempowerment right.
Be a strong, independent woman,right.
I'm like great, right.
But the problem is girls oftenwant this boss bitch attitude

(32:15):
and they want to take themasculine attitude.
I'm a boss, right, but theydon't want the.

Speaker 1 (32:21):
Responsibility.
Exactly, sorry, I didn't mean.
Yeah, that's exactly what I wasgoing to say, and it's like
okay, you want to be a boss CoolGo.

Speaker 2 (32:34):
You want to be a boss , cool go.
Work 12 hour days, go.
When something goes wrong,you're the one that's waking up
at 3am and fixing the problemright.
Or you can say, okay, I want totake the more feminine role,
but.
But the problem is also on theflip side guys are.
This new breed of guys is justthis is like they're just kind
of wimpy and they watch threeandrew tate videos and they're
like I am the alpha okay, that Iwill not put up with.

Speaker 1 (32:54):
And I'm like what are you?
What are you?
The alpha, the fucking wendy's.

Speaker 2 (32:57):
Are you the alpha of the wendy's that you're a
cashier at like?
You can't just proclaimyourself the alpha?

Speaker 1 (33:01):
I that that is my instant.
What is that?
Men in black memory eraser thatliterally erases my memory.
If you mention what, is it topg?
If you're top g, my, I just getthat click and I'm just like oh
, it turns around instantly, oh,instantly, because the thing is
is is andrew tate is like to,is like scientology andrew tate

(33:27):
takes.
I don't agree with you well,well, hear me out, hear me out
not not fully, but the analogythat I'm using is what I can
respect about both of thesethings.
Right, andrew Tate andScientology, okay, what they've
done.
What is similar is that, in myopinion, is that it seems like
there have been these practicesand these basic psychological

(33:49):
rules and teachings and thisbasic education that has been
repackaged and sold.
So all of this free knowledgethat doesn't cost a dime of
monetarily or your ego or yourdignity or anything, free
knowledge is now beingrepackaged and sold to you, the

(34:11):
consumer, when it was freeeverywhere, for example, mind
over matter, right, knowing thatyou have more control of your
reality than, but that's notowned by anybody.
that is that, basically, theythey take people and, and, and

(34:33):
entities like those take thesethe concepts, yeah they take
these concepts and and dilute it, and they've, and they almost
uh, um feed or not feed off ofum, they're predators, and they
might not have started that way.

(34:53):
That's the thing, too, is theymight not have started totally,
could have started with goodintentions, but once you start
to deify yourself, it'spredatorial, because now you're
going to start feeding onpeople's pain and you're going
to take advantage of them.
And so the reason I'm sayingthis is because I think that
andrew tate has valuable thingsto say.
He has said valuable thingsbefore.
Do I think he's valuable?

(35:13):
No, but do I think he has hadvaluable things to say?
Yes, and that's why he's sodangerous, because all you need
to do is, in all of thisinsanity, you have to sprinkle
in a few very, very valid thingsthat resonate with people.
And that's how cults happen,and that's how you get those
goggles, those rose-coloredgoggles, or you just get jaded,

(35:36):
you know, because you're likewell, this is true.
So if this is true, and Ibelieve that to my core, then I
naturally have this trust, thisidea of trust that is already
built.

Speaker 2 (35:48):
And the problem too is like, because I would say, I
agree with actually about,probably about 70, 80% of what
Andrew Tate says.
And then there's things whereI'm like wait, you took that too
far, and I even sometimes I'mlike I don't even know if you
believe this or you're justdoing this because it gets
clicks and it's controversial.

(36:13):
I'm like like when he I rememberhe said one time he was like oh
, if a man cheats on a womanit's okay, because high value
men can have multiple women.
But I'm like, if you reallybelieve that, wouldn't you want
the high value man to be honestwith the girl and say, hey, I
want to have multiple girls, youcan have multiple guys, and she
can have the choice then toeither agree with that or
disagree, versus like, why wouldyou have to go behind their
back if you're really like thishigh value guy or whatever, yeah
, that's like.
OK, I think you took it too far,but I almost feel like he knows

(36:34):
that.

Speaker 1 (36:39):
But he just knows it's going to get more clicks if
he kind of does the crazierthing.
Really sadly, I feel bad sayingthis, but I think he's smart
enough to know that he isactually pandering to a very
common denominator the lowestcommon denominator.
And that's what politicians do,right, they pander the lowest
common denominator.
And that's what politicians do,right?
They pander to the lowestcommon denominator.
I care about the masses, right?
It's not about quality, it'sabout quantity.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
But then also, I think at some point it's like
all right if you're an adult andyou're going to let somebody
influence you at some point it'syour personal responsibility to
be like let me use my ownfucking brain instead of just
fucking following what some dudetold me on youtube and like at
some point, like there is partof me that's like if you get

(37:21):
fucking scammed, it's your faultfor fucking getting scammed.
You know what I mean?
Like yes, maybe the scammer isa bad person also, but like at
what point is it like you gottalike figure this shit out on
yourself because you're an adult?

Speaker 1 (37:33):
totally yes they're a bad person for doing that, but
that doesn't negate the factthat you let it happen to
yourself yeah, yeah, yeah, it'skind of like both and that's
what experience is.
You let shit happen to yourselfand then hopefully you learn
from it.
But that's the exact reason why,if I hear any top g, if I hear
any, if Andrew Tate is like atopic in, any conversation I'm

(37:54):
having in an unironically,there's no way I would be able
to sit there and continuethrough the conversation because
, as an adult, if you, even ifthat's someone that has that
type of a deep, like a very deepinfluence on you, I'm worried
for you because all of thesethings that he's explaining are,
I feel, bad for him because hedoesn't quite understand the

(38:18):
value of the things that he'ssaying.
If he, if he like, being beinghigh value doesn't mean being
inconsiderate and being anasshole right being high value,
like who wants to pay a lot foran asshole.
That's not high value, that'snot valuable to me.
Being a douchebag and cheatingand all of these things like
that's not valuable, you know.
So if someone like you said it,so you said it so well.

(38:43):
There I agree with like 70 ofthe things he says.
Cool, they're not his originalthoughts.
I'm sure you can probably agreewith me on that.

Speaker 2 (38:49):
It's been happening from the beginning they're not
his original thoughts.

Speaker 1 (38:52):
They never have been.
Nor is scientology theiroriginal.
That's where the comparison is.
They've taken other people'sscience and they've missed.
They've now repackaged it in away that they can sell
themselves, in a way that theycan now make it their
personality.
It turns it's like mcdonald'sbrand, right's like.
It's like how can I makepsychology mine, andrew Tate?

(39:13):
Well, cool, I'm going todominate the space and I'm going
to pander to children, to youngteenage boys that don't have a
good father figure to look up ordon't have a good male
influence.

Speaker 2 (39:22):
And that's what I think it is is guys, either
their dad's not there because hedipped, or his dad is a fucking
pushover who doesn't like havea backbone or low or yeah,
exactly, and everybody feelsthis, like there's things that
he talks about that like you canfeel that it's true.
You're like oh, man, yeah, likemen aren't men anymore.
You know what I mean.

(39:42):
You can feel it, but you don'tknow how to put it into words.
And so these like guys thatdon't have a good, like strong
father figure are just like oh,my god, finally someone
understands me.
And then they're just like mygod, please, overlord tate, tell
me what to do I will followeverything you say.

Speaker 1 (39:57):
It's an incel incubator, incubator, that's an
incel incubator.
All all that is is you know,I'm being facetious, but also,
at the same time, that's what itfeels like, because it feels
like he hates women.
And I'm not one of those peoplethat like is walking around
like oh, he hates women.
No, but I think Andrew Tateacts like he really hates women

(40:17):
and I think he does on his clips.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
On his clips.
Whenever I watch like a fullinterview, I'm like okay with
the context, it's like most ofit is like good, and then like I
can like tell when he's justlike oh, he's just like
exaggerating.

Speaker 1 (40:29):
But that's the thing.
Maybe honestly he doesn't.

Speaker 2 (40:31):
But so let me correct myself.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
Let me correct myself For the like publicly facing he
publicly like.
Public facing he does not like.
Like.
It's his brand, like.
That's what makes him sovaluable is because everyone
else is a simp, but he's not.

Speaker 2 (40:48):
He's an alpha right he doesn't need you, he does.

Speaker 1 (40:51):
He's a simp.
If you want to be with a smalllittle simp, you can.
But do you know what I mean?
I'll suck my own dick Top.

Speaker 2 (40:57):
G baby.

Speaker 1 (40:58):
Top G.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
I'm so alpha, I only have sex with guys to assert my
dominance over the socialhierarchy.

Speaker 1 (41:05):
You got it Exactly, exactly it.
Just it looks ridiculous andanybody who subscribes to him
and his ideologies I genuinelyfeel bad for because, like you
said, he does say a lot ofvaluable things.
It's just packaged horribly andit's so easily misconstrued by
people who want to takeadvantage of whatever it is Like

(41:27):
he doesn't clarify.
You know he's not going to say,but you know, make sure that
you're doing this in arespectful way that you know
it's amicable, yeah, exactlybecause that's not gonna get him
views.
So, and because of that, now hiswhole brand is basically like
it's in celly, women are trying.
It's kind of like uh, what wasit?
The?

(41:47):
Um?
Like just baby makers, vibes,you know.
Or what is it?
Birth makers?
Ready to uh?
Ready to what?
What's that thing that creepymen say?
they say you look like ready toI'm not sure when you force
people to have, to force animalsto have babies.
What's it called?
What is it called?
Oh my god, it's so, um, anyway,anyway, uh, moving on, but I

(42:14):
don't remember what I was gonnasay.

Speaker 2 (42:15):
So moving on let's go next topic what's your, what's
your type?
Let's go uh, looks first andthen we'll.
We'll move on to personalitylater I really don't like
tattoos really Really?
Yeah, because you are tatted up.
Usually, tattoos like tattoos.

Speaker 1 (42:33):
I know I don't mind them.
I don't mind them, but I preferno tattoos Interesting.
I.

Speaker 2 (42:42):
Why is that?

Speaker 1 (42:44):
I don't really like my own myself and I got my
tattoos all at a very young age.
Like my first tattoo, I got onewhen I was 16.
Then my chest piece I got theday I turned 18.
I didn't even think about it.
I went in and got a chest pieceand a half sleeve and you know,
10 years later I'm like how amI going to get this off of me?
But you know, I really likeclean and classy and I like a

(43:10):
clean cut appearance.
You know someone who could veryeasily fall into your category
of like new age men that youwere talking about, like the
pussy guys, like whatever thevery feminine men, because it's
always been with these hypermasculine and I mean that makes
sense, right, we've had so manywomen have experienced so much
toxic masculinity that they'rejust like, let's go the other

(43:31):
way, let's just try the otherroute, let's find someone that's
a little more yin than they areyang right.
And then, um, I saw you know Iwas watching one of your other
episodes and you were actuallydiscussing that and how, um,
women kind of it feels likewomen are then longing for the
masculinity that's kind oflacking in this, like comfort

(43:54):
and softness that they'regetting from these like new, new
, softer men, like soft boys.
So that's the, that's like kindof what I think it is.
It's like a soft boy is someonethat is not really going to do
no harm you know and he's safehe's safe.
He's gonna come pick you.
He's a good boy, yeah, he's,and, and you know he's.
But is there a part of you thatloses?

(44:20):
Oh man, so yeah, I'm fine, goon, don't hurt him, it's okay.
Okay, it's fine, he's fine, goon.

Speaker 2 (44:22):
Okay, welcome, um there, uh, what was like?
What was it going?
Oh, do you feel like, though,like okay, with like a software,
right, you feel more safe.
You feel like, okay, he's notgoing to cheat on me, he's not
going to do anything.
But do you feel like there'slike a loss of like the just gut
level attraction of just like,like the like I want you and

(44:45):
it's just like, oh, this guy'sgood for me.
He checks all the boxes, likeI'll take him home to mom.

Speaker 1 (45:00):
My mom for me.
He checks all the boxes, likeI'll take him home to mom, my
mom will love him because he's agreat guy.
Yes, absolutely for mepersonally.
Again, all this is for mepersonally.
Um, I I dated, um my lastlong-term relationship.
Uh, I dated this guy who waslike SWAT qualified in shooting.
Swat qualified in shooting justfor for fun.
You know, he's just really goodat shooting and he's really
good at racing and he's likethis super man's man.
But then he plays piano andthen he does face masks with me
and it was kind of this reallycool hybrid that I hadn't really

(45:24):
seen before, because I'mthinking like, oh, I'm shooting,
shooting guns one-handed from amoving car and then doing
upside down face masks.
When you get home, you knowthat that's not really a thing
that you expect.
But then after I experiencedthat before him, it was all
pretty much rough boys Right,mostly.
But then, once I experiencedthat, I was like, oh my gosh,

(45:46):
like I love this, this combo ofthis, like really nice yin yang
combo.
Best of both worlds and weobviously had our issues.
We broke up and we weretogether for three, three and a
half years, but we broke up, um,but regardless, that kind of I
was like, oh, I want that.
You know, I kind of want that,I not a kind of I need, I feel
like I need that.
That's the type of person thatI need is someone that's an

(46:07):
all-weather person that I can,you know, can save me from a
fire, but then, you know, we canalso go to a really beautiful
dinner and, you know, grab allthe attention in the room.
So it's just kind of I don'tknow.
And, and this, like I'm a verysentimental person and with a
lot of extremely masculine men,um, if it's, if they don't have

(46:30):
a connection to their feminineside, then I could be really
annoying and a baby, you know,because for me, like I'm very,
I'm just emotional and I'msensitive and I'm passionate and
I'm complicated to understand.
You know, I'm a very nuancedperson and I feel like, in order

(46:50):
for me to feel understood, Iwould need to be with someone
that has the patience andunderstanding, resonance,
whatever it may be, to be ableto allow that part of me to feel
safe and heard.
And I'm not saying that menthat are just, you know, a man's
man can't do that, I'm justsaying that from that are just

(47:12):
you know, a man's man can't dothat.
Um, I'm just saying that frommy experience.
Um, it's been, it is refreshingfor women to be able to go from
that that primal kind ofmasculinity, to like the softer,
more feminine balance, um, butthere's, you know, it's a good
little restart and it helpspeople kind of figure out what
they want to, because I didn'teven know that existed, to be
honest with you so when youfirst met, well first, how did

(47:34):
you guys meet that relationship?
the three and a half years oneyeah, the the both both sides.
We met online no way which appmatch?
Match.
What are you?
An old person?
Okay, I did that on purpose,because I you know what crazy.

Speaker 2 (47:53):
How old was he?

Speaker 1 (47:54):
30 30 um.
I did match on purpose, okay,so my mom, serial dater, serial
mom I'm sorry um.
She was always on match and Iand there were so many guys that
she dated.
I'm sorry that were wonderful.
They just weren't for her, butthey were really class acts,

(48:17):
like they were really good dudesand so because it's not like.

Speaker 2 (48:19):
It's like the opposite of the hookup app.
So you get all the nice guys.

Speaker 1 (48:22):
Right, right, and at the time there wasn't Hinge or
any, or there was Tinder.
There was like Tinder, plentyof Fish, blah, blah, blah.
And then there's like Match,you know.
So there's all the hookup sites, and then that was the one that
you paid for, because all theother ones and so people took it

(48:43):
a little more serious.
It was branded as, like I wantto get married, yeah, exactly.
And so, you know, I jumped onthere after actually coming from
a really bad relationship and Iwas like I want to be with
someone that respects me, takesme seriously, like I.
It was a pretty abusiverelationship that I come for or
come from.
Was it too soon to jump in?
Absolutely, but at the timethat's what I wanted, and so I
decided the best place to findsomebody that is not going to be

(49:05):
like this biggest douchebagI've ever seen in my entire life
is probably going to be someonethat is wanting to take a
partner more seriously andthey're going to probably want
to pay for if they're paying forthe service, they're probably
not going to want to waste it.
So, um, you know, I justfigured to give it a shot.
I had one free message.
I didn't want to pay for it Iused my one free message.

(49:25):
The guy thought I was a bot.
And then we ended up dating forthree and a half years and like
traveled around the worldtogether.
Um, but yeah, he taught me howto shoot, like he.
Well, he would take me to likethe shooting range Like he would
he.
He spoiled me in like cool ways.
Like he would take me toprivate shooting shooting range
like he would he.
He spoiled me in like cool ways.
Like he would take me toprivate shooting range with like
all these guns and like kind oflike show me how to shoot.

(49:47):
And that's a different type ofspoiling.
That's really fun that a lot ofgirls don't think that they
don't get that experience.
But that's also because Imyself am like a little bit of a
tomboy too, so I don't mind,you know, kind of being excited
to be to consider thoseexperiences as me being kind of
spoiled.
So yeah, I said a bunch ofrandom things.

Speaker 2 (50:09):
Interesting.
So what?
What originally attracted youto him?
Was it the masculine side?
Was it?

Speaker 1 (50:15):
just his looks.

Speaker 2 (50:16):
Was it, what was it was?

Speaker 1 (50:17):
his education and he was very well traveled and he
was um.
He seemed to be just very um,established for a 30 year old um
and he he seemed very just,independent and reliable.
He just seemed like a reallysolid person.
And I was in a with a reallybiggest fuck boy you've ever met
in your entire life, probably20 times worse than him before

(50:42):
him.
So it was like the stability, Ithink, and he did not actually
come off, come across with themasculinity, the super, the
super masculine side wassecondary.
It was actually when I firstmet him, he was very soft and
then, once I got to know him, Iwas like shit, he's kind of a
sleeper.

Speaker 2 (51:02):
He's like a six-round pick yeah yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:05):
Coming out of nowhere , Tom.

Speaker 2 (51:06):
Brady, yeah, and I loved that.

Speaker 1 (51:08):
I loved that.
I thought it was the sexiestthing ever, but then that also
ruined my expectations a lot,because I'm like oh, sleeper,
soft boys, where are you?

Speaker 2 (51:16):
It's hard to find them, I'm sure.

Speaker 1 (51:27):
Usually people lead with them.
Yeah, yeah so.
So you dated for three and ahalf years, yeah, so what
happened?
Oh my goodness, um, I guesstldr is he had healed so much
from his own traumas and then,when he had met me, we had
similar traumas and because hefelt that he had healed so much,
he felt he was qualified toheal me, to save me right, and I
wanted to be saved.
But I also warned him very muchso that it's very unlikely.

(51:49):
But you know he was veryconfident in that and I almost
took advantage of that.
Being the depressed, messed up,you know, mentally distressed
person that I was, he would giveme five feet and I would take
10, right, because I'm you'renot.
I basically had noresponsibility for my emotions

(52:10):
because he was taking such goodcare of like cradling my
emotions since I came from sucha bad spot.
But then it just got to a pointwhere he felt like dad, not
daddy, dad.
You know like he felt like hewas taking care of a child yeah,

(52:32):
like he felt he was taking careof a child and I totally
understood that.
I understand where he's comingfrom.
I had crippling depression,like incredible trauma.
I had panic attacks that weresending me to the emergency room
um existential ocd.
I still have existential ocd tothis day.
It's horrible.
Um, and that was just.
He was really.
That was exciting for him atfirst, but then I was yeah,

(52:55):
because he he had been there Isee so he was like I know how to
fix this.
I was there, so I know how I canhelp you and you're gonna be a
beautiful, amazing person oncewe can just get you to where I
am.
But he's eight years older thanme.
I see so and so yeah, I usuallygo for older men, and I was way

(53:16):
above his pay grade what do youmean above his pay grade?
Like he wasn't getting paidenough oh, like financially,
yeah, no, no no, no, uh,metaphorically okay like this,
job's not worth it, kind of athing you know like

Speaker 2 (53:27):
I don't get paid enough to do this you know he's
not getting enough out of it.

Speaker 1 (53:31):
Yeah, and and and that and then that.
To me, that kind of liketriggered something in me where
it was like I was like, wait,but you wanted me to be like
this, okay, I'll change.
And then for, and then for thenext like two years basically,
or like year, I was like tryingto heal myself and he was a
great communicator but an overcommunicator, and so that taught
me to communicate but alsoagain gave me another

(53:52):
double-edged sword where it'slike I overly communicate and I
expect other people to be ableto articulate themselves exactly
how I want them to or exactlyhow they want to be heard.
Right, and that's not realistic.
It just ended.
We just ended up resenting eachother because he, the way that
he was, was never enough for mein retro, like at the time, like

(54:14):
I was definitely like he woulddo one thing, but to me I would
always compare it to.
We had one of the.
It was me, him, him and an ex.
So like he treated her likegold and you know, then, when it
came to me, I was just veryinsecure from the beginning.
Will I ever have what he gaveto her?
And the answer was no, Iwouldn't.

(54:35):
So then every time he would dosomething for me, I would end up
comparing in my head to how hetreated his partner before me
and how well I treated him andhow I deserved.
In my head, you know, I feltentitled to the same treatment
that he had given to someonethat treated him far worse and
that just turned into resentment, that turned into being

(54:58):
ungrateful, like myself on mypart right right I was.
It was hard for me to beappreciative because I was
always looking for more, andthen he was, like you know,
trying and trying.
But now he wasn't perfect,don't get me wrong.
He definitely had his issues,but I would say that the biggest
reason was because of himwanting to take on a task that

(55:21):
was too strong and me choosingto give him so much, so much, um
, power in that task, like somuch, uh, you know
responsibility, so much lead, Iguess, so to speak.
Yeah and so do you think?

Speaker 2 (55:38):
have you ever heard the quote?
What's the right person if it'snot the right time?

Speaker 1 (55:42):
No, but I do love.
You know those words.
Do you think that's an?

Speaker 2 (55:46):
accurate description of that relationship or do you
think still it's not the rightperson for you?

Speaker 1 (55:51):
It's actually really, really uncanny that you say
that I was thinking about that.
Um, when we broke up, he toldme we should just, you know
we're we're canvases and rightnow we're just kind of making a

(56:12):
mess on on the canvases, right,and we don't have our own
pictures painted, because we'repainting all over each other
something.
I'm butchering it, but you'regonna get it.
So what we need to do is maybeone day we can have our own
canvases and paint our ownbeautiful pictures and bring
them together to see, blah, blah, what they can create.
Right, it was beautiful.
I'm saying that because I'mtrying to make myself feel

(56:32):
better, because I'm a littlebetter.
It's still fun, um, and and youknow he's a lovely person, he's
still.
It has me in his best interest.
He we're.
He was the best um ex.
He's the best ex I have, likewe're on, really, you know
relatively good terms very deep.
We know each other deeply andpart of me misses wonders.

(56:57):
Part of me wonders if anothertime, because we're only
evolving, right, so what if,down the road, would I be able
to be with him?
Well then, that makes me thinkof the issues that are not
changeable, like the fact thathe's 36.

(57:18):
And I'm almost 10 years youngerthan you.
I think that's that big of anissue so it's not, but I I let
me explain why.
It's because of, again, my backto my over analyzing and me
being I'm one of those womenthat feels like the tick, tick,
tick, tick.
So the problem is is that ifI'm with someone that is not

(57:41):
ready, right, if they're like Idon't want to be more likely
that he's ready if he's olderthan you.
Yeah, but the thing is is he wasand he wasn't, I see.
And so for me to go back, Imean, I do definitely think.
But look, if we were to, ifsomehow, you know, tomorrow, and

(58:05):
he's 36 years old, and this isfine, that's fine, I'm not
stressed about that, but it'sthe, how long are we going to
wait?
And then, how much older am Igoing to get?
And he told something he toldme was this is the first time
he's ever been in a relationship.
I don't think this is true,that he didn't know what he
wanted.
I think he knew what he wantedwhen we first started dating,

(58:26):
but then just grew out of it.
But that's what he said, youknow, as the, as the
justification.
So I don't know.
Honestly, I don't know, becauseright now, at this point, I
think he was the best suitedperson for me for the most part,
but he still wasn't perfect.
There were a lot of situationsthat I was just like are you
kidding me?
Like this can't be, it can't bereal.

(58:47):
Um, so I don't know.
I would say that I believe inthat.
I just don't know.
If this situation is, is thatexactly?
Yeah, would I be open to it in10 years, maybe in 10 years.
Damn, I hope not.

Speaker 2 (59:00):
I hope not like maybe five years yeah maybe five
years max all right, mckenna, weare about out of time.
I got a couple rapid firequestions okay okay, let's go
favorite uh food pasta reallyyeah, have you been to jones
down the street?
No so seriously it's like thebest pasta in la.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
It's not good for me, but I eat a lot of it I eat big
pulls, yeah, okay rapid, numbertwo Favorite candy.
Oh shit, oh no, oh no, oh no,oh no, oh no Chocolate or like
non-chocolate, anything.

(59:39):
I like the Dutch chocolatecaramels from See's Candy with
little almonds in it.
I don't know if I've had those.
Probably not.
My grandpa loves those.
They're so good, interesting.

Speaker 2 (59:48):
Favorite first date spot or activity.

Speaker 1 (59:55):
Ooh theme park.

Speaker 2 (59:57):
Interesting Six Flags Disneyland.
Don't tell him Sorry, I'm sorry, I don't know if we're going to
be friends.
Don't tell him.
Don't tell him interesting sixflags.
I'm a master at six flags youknow it's funny.

Speaker 1 (01:00:07):
I love six flags, though.
Let's go, it's wonderful, I'mdown, yeah I know all the.
I know the routes my exwouldn't go with me because he
doesn't like roller coasters youknow, what's funny is my
friends from wisconsin.

Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
I told them one time like, oh, me and my friends are
like planning this disneylandthing.

Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
And they're like, oh, your friends have kids oh no,
and I was like no, and they'relike wait, you're just going to
disneyland as adults, just to go, like what, say hi to mickey
mouse it made me feel stupid.
I was like wait, my nephew iscoming, it's so it's so normal
in la.

Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
Like people, like adults go, but like from other
states they're like what thefuck?
Why are you going as a doll,like that's a kid's thing?

Speaker 1 (01:00:53):
I like that you say that, because I always feel bad
being like I go to dc land, butif you think about it, a lot of
la people go to.

Speaker 2 (01:00:58):
This is right there, why wouldn't?

Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
they, you know, so all right favorite uh travel
destination.

Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
You haven't been to that you want to go to the
amalfi coast oh, that's veryspecific, it's so beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
Yeah, it's very beautiful I've never been.

Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
I've been all over europe, but never the amalfi
coast well, we'll go after sixblocks, let's do it.
Well, we'll go after six slugs.
Let's do it.
Uh, yeah, that's the last one.
Where can uh?

Speaker 1 (01:01:27):
people find you any instagram shout out or anything,
I mean I guess kind of on ahiatus.
But if people want to follow me, it's deus x mckenna deus dot x
, dot, sorry yeah deus dot x dotmckenna, like deus x machina,
but my name is McKenna, so Well,this has been fun.

Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
We'll have to do round two sometime.

Speaker 1 (01:01:46):
Totally.
Thank you for having me.
Thanks for listening.