June 21, 2024 • 36 mins
In the second episode of Unbound, Nikki Payne and Adriana Herrera explore the wild, wild world of gay cowboys. They delve into the history of the bandana code, a secret language used to communicate sexual desires within the LGBTQ+ community. But what happens when you're a queer cowboy living out on the range? How do you find connection and community in a place where there aren't any women around? Join us as we unpack the unique challenges and joys of being a gay cowboy in the modern West. Don't miss this hilarious and heartwarming conversation about love, identity, and finding your tribe in unexpected places.
Romance read for this episode is Marathon Cowboys by Sarah Black.
https://www.amazon.com/Marathon-Cowboys-Sarah-Black-ebook/dp/B0067MYS3U
Read these award winning books from our co-hosts:
Sex, Lies and Sensibility, by Nikki Payne (Pre-Order)
In this contemporary diverse retelling of Jane Austen's Sense and Sensibility, two sisters find themselves and find love in the rustic beauty of Maine.
Run Darling, by New York Times best selling Author Adriana Herrera
All Arabella Gaspar wanted was to buy some fun sexy grown-up toys for her first time leading her house’s run, but after one or two—okay, a dozen—threats from Magi who don’t think a girl should be a Toy Runner (eye-roll) her overprotective brothers have stuck her with none other than Rhyne Carrasco to be her bodyguard.
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https://adrianaherreraromance.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nikki Payne (00:00):
Hey y'all, welcome back to Unbound.
It's Gay Cowboys Day.
Welcome to Unbound, the podcastthat explores the intersection
of pop culture and the steamyworld of romance literature.
Join us as we celebrate thevoices and stories often left in
the shadows and unravel thethreads of joy, passion and
heartache that keep us comingback to the page and the screen.
Adriana Herrera (00:24):
I'm Adriana Vera and I write romance novels
with hot and horny Latin people.
Nikki Payne (00:28):
And I'm Nikki Payne and I write steamy romance
based on the books you wereforced to read in high school.
We're steering our rainbowseries with the fringe on top
right into the heart of thepride parade, western style.
In this episode we're kickingoff with a provocative
exploration of homoeroticism inthe West, how the isolation and
lawlessness of the frontier lifeopened up unexpected doors for
(00:50):
queer expression and identity.
Adriana Herrera (00:53):
That's right, folks.
It's Gay Cowboy Day.
Nikki Payne (01:00):
Okay, the West has a secret.
Y'all, all those Marlboro men,squinty Clint Eastwoods and
swaggering John Waynes they havebeen playing in your face.
The cowboy, an iconic figure ofAmerican mythology,
traditionally embodieshyper-masculine traits such as
ruggedness, stoicism,independence, and they all have
(01:22):
those deep Batman voices likeI'm not going to be able to do
it, surely.
But this portrayal oftenoverlooks the inherently
homosocial environment in whichthese cowboys operated Extended
periods of male-dominatedsettings, sharing physical
spaces, relying heavily on oneanother for emotional and
sometimes physical support.
(01:42):
We're going gay on the trail,folks.
Adriana Herrera (01:46):
I mean it's kind of about the isolation
really, on the frontier, awayfrom the structured society of
the East, all of those rules.
Men and women and persons ofany gender really found
themselves in roles andrelationships that defied the
norms of the times.
With fewer eyes to judge, theWest was a place where one could
(02:06):
explore a more fluid sexualidentity.
It was a place where constructsfell away and a person could
redefine their way of life.
The very aesthetic of the West,as we've said before, lends
itself to reinvention.
Nikki Payne (02:20):
After all, it's a blank canvas and there's
something hot, right andhomoerotic about these settings
by themselves.
In romance we love a trope theroad trip, only one tent.
Adriana Herrera (02:31):
Or one horse or , in Nikki's case, only one
wigwam.
Nikki Payne (02:35):
Yes, it's all here, y'all, from cattle drives to
the intimate confines of ashared tent.
The West was ripe with malebonding and the blurred lines of
camaraderie and desire.
Adriana Herrera (02:47):
And I mean it's so intriguing, so beguiling, to
think about the possibility ofthe West for people of queer
identities.
Even pop culture is sort offascinated with the homoerotic
aspects of the West.
It has started to peel backthese layers.
Take films like BrokebackMountain and even classics like
(03:09):
Rio Bravo, where the tensionbetween John Wayne and Ricky
Nanslan can be cut with a knife.
But despite Wayne's intentionof making the film a defense of
McCarthyism, it was pretty gay,pretty, pretty, pretty gay.
Or my favorite fate of mates inthe west film, bush cassidy and
(03:30):
the sun basket.
Or how I like to call it, dancebutch.
Because, come on, how do youpair paul newman and robert
redford in a movie like that andnot expect us to ship the hell
out of the entire situation?
I, I mean the amount of leatherin this movie.
The amount of leather, okay,those stories tap into that
(03:52):
undercurrent of tension,affection, comfort, deep bonding
that challenges the traditionalnarratives of the cowboy as a
stoic, solitary figure.
Nikki Payne (04:02):
And we talk a lot about the cowboy in the past,
but the cowboy is actuallyhappening right now too.
There's an ongoing journey tounderstand and embrace the
nature of Western mythology.
So, from Almodovar's films tothe most powerful narratives
that are captured in modernWesterns, we actually see a
continued fascination with thelayers of identity that this
(04:23):
cowboy represents.
This is Unbound, and we're justgetting started on our journey
through the gay west.
Adriana Herrera (04:30):
Y'all don't want to miss what's next?
Welcome back to Unbound, wherewe argue, like Orville Peck,
that cowboys are frequentlysecretly fond of each other.
Nikki Payne (04:46):
Let's kick things off with cinema with a movie
that disturbed me and had meriveted to my chair the Power of
the Dog.
This is a film by Jane Campionand I know I'm breaking the
rules.
This is actually anaggressively white film where
Benedict Cumberbatch plays theembodiment of an extremely toxic
gay man eating himself up fromthe inside.
His character is monstrous thethe he's a walking talking
(05:08):
manifestation of self-loathingand internalized homophobia, and
it doesn't end well for our boythis.
What I'm what I love about thismovie is that it's actually this
death blow to the toxicmasculinity of the cowboy
archetype, fashion by Hollywood.
It is a counter-argument andmakes this character pitiable
(05:30):
and withering and disgusting toour eyes, because we know that
that archetype by Fashion byHollywood is really cis, white
head, able-bodied lore.
It's a myth.
The twist here is that he isultimately failed by this waifu
young man who is also amanifestation of what media
(05:51):
would consider the opposite ofthe cowboy Ultimately a person
drowning in their own loneliness, love and yearning, and he's
cut down by that.
What I find so interesting and,adriana, we can talk about this
is that Jane Campion tends todo her most feminist work when
the central characters are men,and some of our greatest
(06:15):
critical race theorists.
Patricia Hill Crenshaw oftenargues that feminism isn't
actually about gender at all.
It's about liberation foreveryone.
Adriana Herrera (06:24):
Yeah, it all comes down to gays in the end,
and I think part of the ideathat Campion is trying to posit
here is that no one's safe frompatriarchy and hyper-masculinity
and that level of toxicity thatthat kind of behavior literally
(06:45):
destroys lives and ends up withdeath, like it literally just
like ends up with like theultimate kind of violence which
is homicide, like it must be putto death almost.
It's kind of like the message ofthis, of this film and that, no
, there's so much symbolismthere sorry to cut you off when
you, when you say it like thatthere's so much symbolism of
(07:07):
like corrupt, corrosive,corrosion and death and just
like ultimate um vile, corrosivenature of that way of thinking
yeah, I mean, I think a lotabout this, like like benedict
cumberbatch's like uh, acting isreally really effective in that
(07:28):
movie and you can almost seelike the spiritual disfiguration
of him, of of that likeinternalized homophobia, of
living in that in the closet ofthe self-loathing and the like
it comes out like it's, it'sstarting to be a physical
manifestation, like you can seethe destruction of his soul in
(07:50):
his face and and it's veryinteresting to me how she used
like this man as kind of likethis figure and I mean romance
does that all the time right,like the idea of um, kind of
using these like ruthless heroes, as kind of like an avatar for
(08:10):
the patriarchy, and how it needsto be like undone and and a lot
of times it can be undone, youknow, under the guise and
through the gaze of feminism.
So I do think that's a greatexample of this kind of
conversation around the Westernand the things it can do.
(08:32):
But it's also interesting tosee someone like Almodovar right
, that's a legendary queerfilmmaker take on the Western
and his short film A Strange Wayof Life, which I love and
everybody should watch becauseit's got Ethan Hawke and Pedro
Pascal probably two of the veryfew men in Hollywood who are
(08:57):
just letting themselves agenaturally, and they look amazing
and very rugged in this movie.
But the story is these two menwho have a history and who are
facing off after decades fromeach other and it is a period
film, so you can tell it'ssometime in the 19th century and
(09:21):
they were outlaws together andhad an affair, um, as young men.
That changed everything betweenthem, um, but ethan is a lawman
now and doesn't want to rehashthe past.
But pedro.
But then pedro shows up and hewants to rehash everything.
(09:42):
Um, this film is really sensual.
Both hawk and pedro really leaninto this decades-long regret
and journey.
I think in the in the film theyhaven't seen each other in like
25 years and so they have thislike um coming together.
That's pretty amazing andexplosive, like very subtle but
also um really well acted, likeyou can see in both their faces,
(10:05):
like the agony, um, and it'sreally kind of to me and nikki,
I want to hear your thoughts onthat it's kind of like what that
film does.
It's almost like what fanfiction does, like gives you
finally, like the release andthe satisfaction of what you've
been needing and wanting to seefor you know, all this time,
(10:27):
like you know the idea of like apaul newman and robert and
robert reff finally kissing andand butchering this thing that's
getting kind of like I feellike part of what that move,
that little film, did for me um,you are blowing my mind right
now with that fan fiction idea,because that is precisely what,
(10:51):
like the nature of um, of fanfiction is right.
Nikki Payne (10:56):
It fills in the, the desire gaps.
Right like this didn't happen.
I'm not seeing this happen inthe media that I love and I'm
going to build in this secretnew world where the things that
I want to happen happen, rightlike in this interesting, like
(11:18):
these stories are like westernfanfic, like writ large, right,
but that fanfic can now become.
Adriana Herrera (11:23):
Can you like the fandom?
I mean, I'm a big fan readerand usually the fics that I
gravitate to are fics that areeither queer and it's usually
couples that like two charactersin a story that are not allowed
to be together because of aheteronormative thing or an
(11:44):
interracial couple like I knowwe talk about the other all the
time where, like, there'samazing chemistry between, for
example, a white actor and ablack actress, but, like they,
it can never be like for SteveDiFallo fan.
Nikki Payne (12:00):
So I think can I just like put in a moment right
here and just like hashtag toall my the Bear Watchers we know
what you're doing.
Okay, exactly, we know what'shappening.
Adriana Herrera (12:12):
Exactly so to me, that piece of it is always
like we need that satisfaction.
And I think Amodola, who isobviously a film master and the
student as well, yeah, and hedid it in a way that really
understands the genre like itreally is, like he uses the
(12:35):
setting and he captures like allthese iconic elements of the
western, like you know, the likethe lone horse rider, like at
dusk.
He captures like that campfiremoment, like there's so many
iconic shots that are likereally part of like the
conventions right of the genre.
Um, he really captures theoutlaw, the lone rider, the
(12:58):
terrain, the standoff at highnoon high noon, yeah, and also
kind of like an orgy, like withwine and stuff, because I think
he was gonna going off like thespaghetti westerns, kind of like
, you know, the the clean films.
But anyway, I thought that wasan interesting addition to the
(13:21):
genre because I think it reallyalleviates and gives us relief
those of us who have watchedthese films and thought this
could be a lot gayer, a lotgayer, and so, because it is out
in moldova, we don't really getlike a full-on hea, but we do
get the possibility of somethinghopeful, um at the end.
(13:45):
So I, I do, I do it um encouragepeople to watch it.
It's only like 35 minutes long.
Nikki Payne (13:51):
Oh, TLDR Watch this film, Okay.
So in the typical Western, soboth men are contained and
they're scared of asking forwhat they want.
In Elmo Delvar's gay-ass movie,Pedro puts all these cards on
the table.
He's going to risk it all forthe.
He's going to risk it all forlove.
(14:12):
This is a perfect example ofthe power of shifting
perspectives in film.
This is what it means whenthere is a queer person behind
the camera telling that story,and this is a perfect example of
what it actually means thepower of turning that gaze on
(14:34):
and making that desire not dirty, making it pure, making it
something that the audience canroot for also.
Adriana Herrera (14:39):
It's a perfect fit.
Yeah, when the gaze is gay, itmatters Gaze for the gays.
Exactly.
Nikki Payne (14:50):
But music is also a space where the gay cowboy has
struggled for invisibility.
Um, if there are any parents ofum children that are in the age
range of like 8 to 12, you maybe eligible for damages, because
when this um, when this songcame out Old Town Road, my kids
(15:12):
wore me out.
I don't even know if I canlisten to it without feeling
like it's a kid song, but LilNas X's hit Old Town Road,
smashed records and challengedwhat it meant to be a Black
queer and a little bit country,even today, and people play them
for a joke.
Adriana Herrera (15:31):
But the Billish People's cowboy was signifying
to the queer community.
The song YMCA was all aboutleaving your home to find a safe
queer community.
Thinking of our Beverly Jenkinstheme and how important finding
community was for hercharacters, we can see these
same themes pop up in VillagePeople's songs.
In the Navy, yes, you can putyour mind at ease in the Navy.
(15:57):
In the Navy.
Nikki Payne (15:58):
Common people.
Adriana Herrera (15:59):
They make a stand in the Navy.
Nikki Payne (16:05):
Can't you see, we need a hand.
Adriana Herrera (16:07):
I mean you need a hand, you make a stand, Okay,
In the Navy, and I mean thewhole thing right, it's like
thinking about these hyper malespaces, the military, a YMCA
space, which is a Christianspace technically, where young
men can fly under the radar andfind what they needed.
Nikki Payne (16:30):
Yeah, orville Peck, who we quoted at the very
beginning of the podcast, is agreat example of this.
He wears these fringe masks andhe has these hauntingly
beautiful country ballads and hebrings this mysterious, almost
otherworldly dimension to thecowboy image and his work is
incredibly melancholy.
But I think there's nothingactually counter-genre with
(16:53):
respect to country and singingabout yearning for a male lover.
It does take on a differentlens when we discover exactly
who Peck is longing for.
Adriana Herrera (17:04):
Just as a parenthesis here, I just want to
point out that Orville Peck wasborn in South Africa right at
the end of apartheid, which Okay, wait, are there even cowboys
in South Africa?
Nikki Payne (17:16):
We can't be doing this.
Adriana Herrera (17:17):
I don't know, but what I do know is that
little Naxxess, who is from theSouth, is not allowed in country
spaces and Peck is sort ofallowed to navigate them.
Nikki Payne (17:29):
Oh, that's tea for another episode.
Adriana, don't do any-.
Adriana Herrera (17:34):
Focus, focus, focus.
That's what I think the mostimportant part of the queer gaze
in Western media kind of isthat there is no interest in
subverting it, it's just aclaiming of it.
I think like that to me is oneof the most interesting things,
specifically like with queerness, claiming of it.
I think like that to me is oneof the most interesting things.
Specifically, I like withqueerness, like I think a lot of
(17:56):
different marginalizedcommunities have something to
say in terms of their place inthe West, but specifically in
the queer gaze I do see thissense of like.
We don't.
It's not necessarily like asubversion, it's just a claiming
of it and just establishingthat queer, queer identities
have always had a place there.
(18:17):
It's like painting themselvesinto a picture that should have
had them from the beginning.
Nikki Payne (18:23):
Word, word.
So are we actually rewiring ourbrains when we watch these
films and listen to these songs?
Are we spectators justconsuming media?
Like what does it really meanto participate in media?
Part of me thinks that we'recomplicating the cowboy a little
bit, so you have these symbolsof, like, rugged individualism.
But I think what we're doing isreally cool and we're
(18:45):
uncovering that true symbol alittle better, this isolated
hero who has the courage to behis or herself in the face of
this vast, sometimes reallyhostile territory.
Adriana Herrera (18:58):
Well, that's a better ending.
I think the idea that whereverthey arrive in the West, the
destination is not onlygeographical but it's
existential, and sure, it mightbe a little bit colonialist, um,
(19:19):
in some ways but you could begay and also stealing land, you
know like but there's, there isdeeper meaning in thinking of
people who went west looking fora place to bloom and to
reinvent themselves.
See, that's a romance hero Ifuck with, listen.
I've read quite a few gaycowboys in my day.
(19:39):
Um 15 years ago, when the mmscene was really taking off in
romance, there was a lot of thegay cowboy romances and all of
them were written by whiteauthors.
But they were gay, they weremen who were going out there
into the unknown and they werestaking their claim of their
little piece of America and theywere starting over and like
(20:04):
reinventing themselves, alsoromantically.
So again I think, and again Ithink that's like what makes it
all really interesting, right,like seeing it from our point of
view and kind of like unpackingthose aspects of it too, of
saying like these two things canbe true, these people can be,
uh, free to be themselvesromantically and find love, and
(20:26):
also let that like becomplicated in the sense that
they are also, you know,colonizing in some ways yeah, do
you know what this brings tomind?
Nikki Payne (20:40):
Marathon Cowboy by Sarah Black.
This is our romance for thisepisode what do you think about
it?
Oh, let's leave that for actthree, because we are going to
talk about this book and we'realso going to dive into the
themes of the gay.
Because we are going to talkabout this book and we're also
going to dive into the themes ofthe gay west.
We're going to talk about thisliberated space on the frontier
being a symbol for freedom andself-discovery and queer
narratives now we're writing offthis jack.
Adriana Herrera (21:02):
We've got some more tales to tell and more
trails to trail.
Nikki Payne (21:10):
Welcome back to Unbound.
Okay, marathon Cowboys, let'sget into it.
The book is about two artistsand the tropes are grumpy
sunshine.
There's only one studio.
One is Lorenzo Maryboy, who isa stoic retired Native American
Marine and a vivacious kind of amanic pixie dream boy.
Jesse and they end up workingtogether at Jesse's grandpa's
(21:34):
home in Marathon, texas.
From the beginning, from thestart, these two characters see
the world so differently and seetheir art as connected to their
experiences for vastlydifferent reasons.
Adriana Herrera (21:46):
I mean, on one end you've got Lorenzo, who's
trying to make sense of his timein the Marines, read Justice to
Civilian Life and trying to gethis comic Devil Dog off the
ground.
Nikki Payne (21:57):
While JC3, jesse's art is loud and demanding.
He wants the world to seethrough his eyes, and the
writing and the setting is socrisp and clear.
When I read this I wastransported so convincingly to
Big Sky's isolation longing.
And they also have a lot of funbanter.
They're talking about nicknamesand having profound
(22:20):
conversations about what itmeans to make art, what it means
to communicate.
There's so much depth and we areallowed to see the setting of
Marathon, texas actually work onthem, open them up, right.
This is actually what I loveabout westerns is that the
setting does character work aswell, and Justin is much more
(22:41):
flirty and open about hissexuality when they are in
Marathon, which actually getshim into some pretty dangerous
situations.
There's this instance where heis in a bar and gets into some
trouble and Lorenzo comes tosave him.
This is a theme that we seeoften in Western romances and
this politics of protection.
This is exactly what DixonWildhorse from Beverly Jenkins'
(23:05):
Topaz would have done to protectour hero or heroine.
A lot of our characters aremoving into safe spaces, places
where it's safer to be gay,places where it's safer to be
queer, places where it's saferto be a person of color, and so
there's this politics of aprotector that moves them to
(23:26):
that safe space, and I thinkwe're seeing that in Marathon
Cowgirls.
Adriana Herrera (23:29):
And I mean I think part of it with them
specifically, like the dynamicbetween Lorenzo and Jesse is
also like of the time.
I think this book is about 12years old, maybe 13 years old,
and I think that was like it's agood example of an era of of
queer romance, or specificallymm, which is like a romance
(23:51):
between two men where thingswere very gendered.
You had your femme, uh,character and you had your more
mass character, which usuallymeant one was comfortable with
the sensuality and the other onewas in the closet.
One was like physically smaller, one was like physically
stronger and bigger, one wasmore fragile emotionally, you
(24:12):
know what I mean.
One was more stoic, and thatdichotomy is also something that
like is very apropos of thewest right, like you usually had
these pairings of of characterswhere usually one was more like
the, the one that was likestronger mentally and physically
(24:33):
, and the other one who was themore, uh, you know, sent, like
emotional, perhaps like the onethat mentally had a little bit
more fragility, and one ended upprotecting the other until the
tables turned.
That is kind of like a reallytried and true arc of the
(24:55):
western Right.
What's interesting here, too, isthat Marathon isn't Lorenzo or
Jesse's home.
They're both exiles in a way.
They're both new there.
This is not their space.
Like.
Jesse has a history with it,but it's not where he's from.
So he really is kind ofcharting a new ground there.
(25:18):
And Jesse's there because hehad to leave San Francisco
because of some trouble, becausehe kind of starts trouble, and
Lorenzo is coming back tocivilian life after serving in
the military and this westernsetting is is where they start
over you know, what's sointeresting about this story is
(25:41):
that neither of these charactersare actually cowboys.
Nikki Payne (25:47):
But, like thinking about thinking about cowboys, I
think we have to start seeingthem as a symbol that does a lot
of real political work.
So there's this like idea ofAmerican rugged individualism
and traditional masculinity Sure, the cowboy does that.
But it's also this kind of likenational, like FYP, like this
(26:14):
story that we keep tellingourselves and we keep clicking
on and it constantly reinforcingto us who we are and what we
believe.
I was reading this article inthis historic and this historian
, richard Slotkin.
He calls Cowboy Miss theprimary language of historical
memory.
So this is like how we areremembering ourselves as a, as a
(26:36):
country.
It's literally our algorithm toourselves.
This is who we are.
Here's our proof.
We click on it.
This is who we are.
Here's our proof, we click onit.
Adriana Herrera (26:42):
This is who we are, I mean the, the, the cowboy
really is such such a big partof the myth of america right,
like I mean, I know, as someonethat didn't grow up here, I grew
up in in the caribbean butconsuming a lot, lot of American
media, I don't know if therewould be a more quintessential
(27:06):
figure of lore, of like Americanlore that I could come up with
visually, than the cowboy.
Like sure you have the robberbarons or whatever, but none of
that comes to mind.
You know what I mean.
None of that is as emblematicas the cowboy and it's also it's
(27:29):
taking a symbol that's being interms of our kind of
interpretation of that myth andqueering it up, so to speak.
It's taking that symbol that'sbeen used to propagate a very
certain type of Americannarrative and opening it up to
include those who were alwaysthere but never acknowledged.
Nikki Payne (27:49):
Yeah, yeah.
Not only that, the books ingeneral have these broad threads
, these still threads that runthrough them, right?
So when we're reading andwatching and listening to a lot
of queer media about the West,those themes of isolation,
community and even a alone withthis thing that you know about
(28:10):
yourself, and don't know whereit's safe to unleash it or to
disclose it.
Adriana Herrera (28:30):
So, like the vast and often lawless landscape
of the West, provide a backdropwhere traditional societal
norms can be reimagined orignored.
Just it's such a perfect placefor queer individuals to kind of
like, let themselves be whothey are without the danger of
(28:53):
suppression.
Nikki Payne (28:55):
No, that's real talk.
The physical and symbolicisolation is crucial, right?
But like you're alone.
But what do you do with thatsolitude, right?
I think that's the differenceIn queer Western media isolation
often turns into self-discovery, and it's a pivotal difference
that allows characters to forgeidentities away from societal
(29:15):
scrutiny.
Adriana Herrera (29:15):
Yeah, I mean it makes me think a lot about
Brokeback Mountain and like thepossibility of letting that
movie actually be a movie thatis from like a queer gaze that
can hold a freedom, you know,and liberation, like a queer
feminist gaze, because thenthese men would have been
(29:37):
allowed to just love each otherright and found a way to be
together and would have found acommunity right, like I think
part of of the missing piece, um, in a story like brokeback
mountain is that they had no oneto turn to to be able to like,
see possibility of what theycould be.
(29:59):
And that is a piece of like thatWestern story where ultimately,
like a queer feminist, you know, bipoc gays would have to
envision a way to buildcommunity once you've reached
(30:20):
your place in the West, becausecommunity is the emphasis of
isolation, but equally vital.
This sounds counterintuitive,but those men were very much
alone, together out in thevastness of the West, so they
were each other's community andultimately, for them to actually
be able to thrive, they've gotto find more of them, of people
(30:43):
like themselves.
Nikki Payne (30:44):
Mmm, I mean, but hold up, hold up, like I
understand community, but like,aren't we being too right now
about this?
I just can't imagine cowboyscoming out to their friends and
loved ones like after the trail.
They're just like okay, let me,just now, I'm in my community,
I'm safe.
Wasn't this just like thesexuality of opportunity?
Adriana Herrera (31:05):
hashtag, hashtag gay for the state?
Um, gay for today?
Um so?
So I mean thinking about itlike again, like it's just like
a place that anything ispossible, right?
So like cowhands or thesetransient people perhaps didn't
(31:28):
have the modern, very rigidframework of sexual orientation
that we have.
The binary of sexual identitiesis relatively modern, emerging
prominently in the last twocenturies.
So prior to that, thedistinctions between and.
(31:48):
Then we have to take intoconsideration that everyone in
the West wasn't coming from apuritanical, like white
Christian like framework.
There were people from Mexico,there were Native Americans,
there were indigenous peoplefrom Mexico, you know what I
mean.
There were people that werecoming from Africa, there were
(32:09):
people that were coming fromeverywhere.
So these people perhaps didn'thave the same views of, like
homosexuality, heterosexualitythat we have been fed in in,
like representations of the Westand the media.
So all of this was less definedand in many societies,
(32:30):
including the American frontier,sexual behaviors were often
influenced more by situationalfactors than strict personal
identities.
Relationships and identitieswere fluid and shaped more by
personal connection andnecessity rather than strict
labels.
Nikki Payne (32:48):
Oh, that cowboy is embracing the complexity and
fluidity of identities betterthan we do now.
Adriana Herrera (32:53):
Let's talk about the hanky code, for
instance.
Nikki Payne (32:56):
Oh yeah, absolutely .
We don't need to tell you thatthere was a shortage of women in
the West.
We don't need to tell you thatthere was a shortage of women in
the West.
There's mostly mythos, but thebandana system was actually set
up to signal sexual preferencein all of these male dominated
dances and saloons, california,where people would want to hang
(33:20):
out and dance and vibe with eachother, and they needed, like,
really quick symbols, right tolet you know like, hey, I'm, I'm
doing, I'm running this show,this is what I like.
Let's um, I don't want to.
I don't know what all we cansay down there this is a family
show.
Okay, okay, um.
(33:42):
Originally these practicalaccessories for cowboys and rail
workers in California, thatbandana evolved into a very
nuanced code, particularly inqueer communities, especially
seen in the 1970s, to start toadvertise your desires.
And growing up I, interestinglyenough, only associated
bandanas with gangs, which arehonestly still largely male.
(34:07):
Hyper masculine spaces.
Wait, are gang bangers, urbancowboys.
I see a lot happening here.
No, gangs and mafia.
That's another episode.
Adriana Herrera (34:18):
That's another season that's another season,
but I like what you're cooking.
Episode, that's another season.
That's another season.
That's another season, but Ilike what you're cooking.
I'm going to let you cook inanother season.
So, as we wrap up today'sjourney, we're left with the
question if the cowboy canembody such diverse and complex
(34:38):
identities, what does this sayabout the potential for other
American categories to evolvethe housewife, the company man,
the millennial, the boomer, theveteran?
So, as we consider movingforward, how do we honor the
death and diversity of queeridentities in retelling of
Western myths?
Nikki Payne (34:58):
Oh, we're leaving you with questions.
Okay, y'all not ready for that.
Not that Aristotelian.
Thank you for joining us onthis journey through the queer
West.
As we close this chapter,remember the West and people
from the West may not have allbeen crooked, but they probably
weren't all straight either.
The gay West hinged on slipperyidentity and community.
(35:20):
We've also seen how theisolation of the frontier
offered this unique canvas forself-discovery and how those
communal bonds formed in themost unexpected places and it
shaped the way that we actuallysee the West today.
As we leave you, here's somecool things we'd love to see
from you.
You have homework, see.
We know that there are gayrodeos happening all over the
(35:41):
country.
If there's one going on nearyou, send us a flyer, send us a
link.
We want to see it.
Adriana Herrera (35:47):
Share with us your favorite country song send
us pics of you in your flyestcowboy gear.
We want to share your iconicwestern styles.
I want to see chaps.
I want to see boots.
I want to see spurs.
I want to see spurs.
I want to see fringe.
We'll compile it and share allthese images in our episode
(36:07):
announcement.
Thank you for riding with ustoday on Unbound.
If you love what you heard,don't forget to subscribe, Leave
us a review and share thispodcast with your friends.
Your support helps us keepbringing these stories to life.
Find us on all major podcastplatforms and follow us on
TikTok, YouTube and Instagramfor updates and behind the
scenes content.
(36:27):
Until next time, keep yourhearts unbound.
Hey y'all, welcome back to Unbound.
It's Gay Cowboys Day.
Welcome to Unbound, the podcastthat explores the intersection
of pop culture and the steamyworld of romance literature.
Join us as we celebrate thevoices and stories often left in
the shadows and unravel thethreads of joy, passion and
heartache that keep us comingback to the page and the screen.
Adriana Herrera (00:24):
I'm Adriana Vera and I write romance novels
with hot and horny Latin people.
Nikki Payne (00:28):
And I'm Nikki Payne and I write steamy romance
based on the books you wereforced to read in high school.
We're steering our rainbowseries with the fringe on top
right into the heart of thepride parade, western style.
In this episode we're kickingoff with a provocative
exploration of homoeroticism inthe West, how the isolation and
lawlessness of the frontier lifeopened up unexpected doors for
(00:50):
queer expression and identity.
Adriana Herrera (00:53):
That's right, folks.
It's Gay Cowboy Day.
Nikki Payne (01:00):
Okay, the West has a secret.
Y'all, all those Marlboro men,squinty Clint Eastwoods and
swaggering John Waynes they havebeen playing in your face.
The cowboy, an iconic figure ofAmerican mythology,
traditionally embodieshyper-masculine traits such as
ruggedness, stoicism,independence, and they all have
(01:22):
those deep Batman voices likeI'm not going to be able to do
it, surely.
But this portrayal oftenoverlooks the inherently
homosocial environment in whichthese cowboys operated Extended
periods of male-dominatedsettings, sharing physical
spaces, relying heavily on oneanother for emotional and
sometimes physical support.
(01:42):
We're going gay on the trail,folks.
Adriana Herrera (01:46):
I mean it's kind of about the isolation
really, on the frontier, awayfrom the structured society of
the East, all of those rules.
Men and women and persons ofany gender really found
themselves in roles andrelationships that defied the
norms of the times.
With fewer eyes to judge, theWest was a place where one could
(02:06):
explore a more fluid sexualidentity.
It was a place where constructsfell away and a person could
redefine their way of life.
The very aesthetic of the West,as we've said before, lends
itself to reinvention.
Nikki Payne (02:20):
After all, it's a blank canvas and there's
something hot, right andhomoerotic about these settings
by themselves.
In romance we love a trope theroad trip, only one tent.
Adriana Herrera (02:31):
Or one horse or , in Nikki's case, only one
wigwam.
Nikki Payne (02:35):
Yes, it's all here, y'all, from cattle drives to
the intimate confines of ashared tent.
The West was ripe with malebonding and the blurred lines of
camaraderie and desire.
Adriana Herrera (02:47):
And I mean it's so intriguing, so beguiling, to
think about the possibility ofthe West for people of queer
identities.
Even pop culture is sort offascinated with the homoerotic
aspects of the West.
It has started to peel backthese layers.
Take films like BrokebackMountain and even classics like
(03:09):
Rio Bravo, where the tensionbetween John Wayne and Ricky
Nanslan can be cut with a knife.
But despite Wayne's intentionof making the film a defense of
McCarthyism, it was pretty gay,pretty, pretty, pretty gay.
Or my favorite fate of mates inthe west film, bush cassidy and
(03:30):
the sun basket.
Or how I like to call it, dancebutch.
Because, come on, how do youpair paul newman and robert
redford in a movie like that andnot expect us to ship the hell
out of the entire situation?
I, I mean the amount of leatherin this movie.
The amount of leather, okay,those stories tap into that
(03:52):
undercurrent of tension,affection, comfort, deep bonding
that challenges the traditionalnarratives of the cowboy as a
stoic, solitary figure.
Nikki Payne (04:02):
And we talk a lot about the cowboy in the past,
but the cowboy is actuallyhappening right now too.
There's an ongoing journey tounderstand and embrace the
nature of Western mythology.
So, from Almodovar's films tothe most powerful narratives
that are captured in modernWesterns, we actually see a
continued fascination with thelayers of identity that this
(04:23):
cowboy represents.
This is Unbound, and we're justgetting started on our journey
through the gay west.
Adriana Herrera (04:30):
Y'all don't want to miss what's next?
Welcome back to Unbound, wherewe argue, like Orville Peck,
that cowboys are frequentlysecretly fond of each other.
Nikki Payne (04:46):
Let's kick things off with cinema with a movie
that disturbed me and had meriveted to my chair the Power of
the Dog.
This is a film by Jane Campionand I know I'm breaking the
rules.
This is actually anaggressively white film where
Benedict Cumberbatch plays theembodiment of an extremely toxic
gay man eating himself up fromthe inside.
His character is monstrous thethe he's a walking talking
(05:08):
manifestation of self-loathingand internalized homophobia, and
it doesn't end well for our boythis.
What I'm what I love about thismovie is that it's actually this
death blow to the toxicmasculinity of the cowboy
archetype, fashion by Hollywood.
It is a counter-argument andmakes this character pitiable
(05:30):
and withering and disgusting toour eyes, because we know that
that archetype by Fashion byHollywood is really cis, white
head, able-bodied lore.
It's a myth.
The twist here is that he isultimately failed by this waifu
young man who is also amanifestation of what media
(05:51):
would consider the opposite ofthe cowboy Ultimately a person
drowning in their own loneliness, love and yearning, and he's
cut down by that.
What I find so interesting and,adriana, we can talk about this
is that Jane Campion tends todo her most feminist work when
the central characters are men,and some of our greatest
(06:15):
critical race theorists.
Patricia Hill Crenshaw oftenargues that feminism isn't
actually about gender at all.
It's about liberation foreveryone.
Adriana Herrera (06:24):
Yeah, it all comes down to gays in the end,
and I think part of the ideathat Campion is trying to posit
here is that no one's safe frompatriarchy and hyper-masculinity
and that level of toxicity thatthat kind of behavior literally
(06:45):
destroys lives and ends up withdeath, like it literally just
like ends up with like theultimate kind of violence which
is homicide, like it must be putto death almost.
It's kind of like the message ofthis, of this film and that, no
, there's so much symbolismthere sorry to cut you off when
you, when you say it like thatthere's so much symbolism of
(07:07):
like corrupt, corrosive,corrosion and death and just
like ultimate um vile, corrosivenature of that way of thinking
yeah, I mean, I think a lotabout this, like like benedict
cumberbatch's like uh, acting isreally really effective in that
(07:28):
movie and you can almost seelike the spiritual disfiguration
of him, of of that likeinternalized homophobia, of
living in that in the closet ofthe self-loathing and the like
it comes out like it's, it'sstarting to be a physical
manifestation, like you can seethe destruction of his soul in
(07:50):
his face and and it's veryinteresting to me how she used
like this man as kind of likethis figure and I mean romance
does that all the time right,like the idea of um, kind of
using these like ruthless heroes, as kind of like an avatar for
(08:10):
the patriarchy, and how it needsto be like undone and and a lot
of times it can be undone, youknow, under the guise and
through the gaze of feminism.
So I do think that's a greatexample of this kind of
conversation around the Westernand the things it can do.
(08:32):
But it's also interesting tosee someone like Almodovar right
, that's a legendary queerfilmmaker take on the Western
and his short film A Strange Wayof Life, which I love and
everybody should watch becauseit's got Ethan Hawke and Pedro
Pascal probably two of the veryfew men in Hollywood who are
(08:57):
just letting themselves agenaturally, and they look amazing
and very rugged in this movie.
But the story is these two menwho have a history and who are
facing off after decades fromeach other and it is a period
film, so you can tell it'ssometime in the 19th century and
(09:21):
they were outlaws together andhad an affair, um, as young men.
That changed everything betweenthem, um, but ethan is a lawman
now and doesn't want to rehashthe past.
But pedro.
But then pedro shows up and hewants to rehash everything.
(09:42):
Um, this film is really sensual.
Both hawk and pedro really leaninto this decades-long regret
and journey.
I think in the in the film theyhaven't seen each other in like
25 years and so they have thislike um coming together.
That's pretty amazing andexplosive, like very subtle but
also um really well acted, likeyou can see in both their faces,
(10:05):
like the agony, um, and it'sreally kind of to me and nikki,
I want to hear your thoughts onthat it's kind of like what that
film does.
It's almost like what fanfiction does, like gives you
finally, like the release andthe satisfaction of what you've
been needing and wanting to seefor you know, all this time,
(10:27):
like you know the idea of like apaul newman and robert and
robert reff finally kissing andand butchering this thing that's
getting kind of like I feellike part of what that move,
that little film, did for me um,you are blowing my mind right
now with that fan fiction idea,because that is precisely what,
(10:51):
like the nature of um, of fanfiction is right.
Nikki Payne (10:56):
It fills in the, the desire gaps.
Right like this didn't happen.
I'm not seeing this happen inthe media that I love and I'm
going to build in this secretnew world where the things that
I want to happen happen, rightlike in this interesting, like
(11:18):
these stories are like westernfanfic, like writ large, right,
but that fanfic can now become.
Adriana Herrera (11:23):
Can you like the fandom?
I mean, I'm a big fan readerand usually the fics that I
gravitate to are fics that areeither queer and it's usually
couples that like two charactersin a story that are not allowed
to be together because of aheteronormative thing or an
(11:44):
interracial couple like I knowwe talk about the other all the
time where, like, there'samazing chemistry between, for
example, a white actor and ablack actress, but, like they,
it can never be like for SteveDiFallo fan.
Nikki Payne (12:00):
So I think can I just like put in a moment right
here and just like hashtag toall my the Bear Watchers we know
what you're doing.
Okay, exactly, we know what'shappening.
Adriana Herrera (12:12):
Exactly so to me, that piece of it is always
like we need that satisfaction.
And I think Amodola, who isobviously a film master and the
student as well, yeah, and hedid it in a way that really
understands the genre like itreally is, like he uses the
(12:35):
setting and he captures like allthese iconic elements of the
western, like you know, the likethe lone horse rider, like at
dusk.
He captures like that campfiremoment, like there's so many
iconic shots that are likereally part of like the
conventions right of the genre.
Um, he really captures theoutlaw, the lone rider, the
(12:58):
terrain, the standoff at highnoon high noon, yeah, and also
kind of like an orgy, like withwine and stuff, because I think
he was gonna going off like thespaghetti westerns, kind of like
, you know, the the clean films.
But anyway, I thought that wasan interesting addition to the
(13:21):
genre because I think it reallyalleviates and gives us relief
those of us who have watchedthese films and thought this
could be a lot gayer, a lotgayer, and so, because it is out
in moldova, we don't really getlike a full-on hea, but we do
get the possibility of somethinghopeful, um at the end.
(13:45):
So I, I do, I do it um encouragepeople to watch it.
It's only like 35 minutes long.
Nikki Payne (13:51):
Oh, TLDR Watch this film, Okay.
So in the typical Western, soboth men are contained and
they're scared of asking forwhat they want.
In Elmo Delvar's gay-ass movie,Pedro puts all these cards on
the table.
He's going to risk it all forthe.
He's going to risk it all forlove.
(14:12):
This is a perfect example ofthe power of shifting
perspectives in film.
This is what it means whenthere is a queer person behind
the camera telling that story,and this is a perfect example of
what it actually means thepower of turning that gaze on
(14:34):
and making that desire not dirty, making it pure, making it
something that the audience canroot for also.
Adriana Herrera (14:39):
It's a perfect fit.
Yeah, when the gaze is gay, itmatters Gaze for the gays.
Exactly.
Nikki Payne (14:50):
But music is also a space where the gay cowboy has
struggled for invisibility.
Um, if there are any parents ofum children that are in the age
range of like 8 to 12, you maybe eligible for damages, because
when this um, when this songcame out Old Town Road, my kids
(15:12):
wore me out.
I don't even know if I canlisten to it without feeling
like it's a kid song, but LilNas X's hit Old Town Road,
smashed records and challengedwhat it meant to be a Black
queer and a little bit country,even today, and people play them
for a joke.
Adriana Herrera (15:31):
But the Billish People's cowboy was signifying
to the queer community.
The song YMCA was all aboutleaving your home to find a safe
queer community.
Thinking of our Beverly Jenkinstheme and how important finding
community was for hercharacters, we can see these
same themes pop up in VillagePeople's songs.
In the Navy, yes, you can putyour mind at ease in the Navy.
(15:57):
In the Navy.
Nikki Payne (15:58):
Common people.
Adriana Herrera (15:59):
They make a stand in the Navy.
Nikki Payne (16:05):
Can't you see, we need a hand.
Adriana Herrera (16:07):
I mean you need a hand, you make a stand, Okay,
In the Navy, and I mean thewhole thing right, it's like
thinking about these hyper malespaces, the military, a YMCA
space, which is a Christianspace technically, where young
men can fly under the radar andfind what they needed.
Nikki Payne (16:30):
Yeah, orville Peck, who we quoted at the very
beginning of the podcast, is agreat example of this.
He wears these fringe masks andhe has these hauntingly
beautiful country ballads and hebrings this mysterious, almost
otherworldly dimension to thecowboy image and his work is
incredibly melancholy.
But I think there's nothingactually counter-genre with
(16:53):
respect to country and singingabout yearning for a male lover.
It does take on a differentlens when we discover exactly
who Peck is longing for.
Adriana Herrera (17:04):
Just as a parenthesis here, I just want to
point out that Orville Peck wasborn in South Africa right at
the end of apartheid, which Okay, wait, are there even cowboys
in South Africa?
Nikki Payne (17:16):
We can't be doing this.
Adriana Herrera (17:17):
I don't know, but what I do know is that
little Naxxess, who is from theSouth, is not allowed in country
spaces and Peck is sort ofallowed to navigate them.
Nikki Payne (17:29):
Oh, that's tea for another episode.
Adriana, don't do any-.
Adriana Herrera (17:34):
Focus, focus, focus.
That's what I think the mostimportant part of the queer gaze
in Western media kind of isthat there is no interest in
subverting it, it's just aclaiming of it.
I think like that to me is oneof the most interesting things,
specifically like with queerness, claiming of it.
I think like that to me is oneof the most interesting things.
Specifically, I like withqueerness, like I think a lot of
(17:56):
different marginalizedcommunities have something to
say in terms of their place inthe West, but specifically in
the queer gaze I do see thissense of like.
We don't.
It's not necessarily like asubversion, it's just a claiming
of it and just establishingthat queer, queer identities
have always had a place there.
(18:17):
It's like painting themselvesinto a picture that should have
had them from the beginning.
Nikki Payne (18:23):
Word, word.
So are we actually rewiring ourbrains when we watch these
films and listen to these songs?
Are we spectators justconsuming media?
Like what does it really meanto participate in media?
Part of me thinks that we'recomplicating the cowboy a little
bit, so you have these symbolsof, like, rugged individualism.
But I think what we're doing isreally cool and we're
(18:45):
uncovering that true symbol alittle better, this isolated
hero who has the courage to behis or herself in the face of
this vast, sometimes reallyhostile territory.
Adriana Herrera (18:58):
Well, that's a better ending.
I think the idea that whereverthey arrive in the West, the
destination is not onlygeographical but it's
existential, and sure, it mightbe a little bit colonialist, um,
(19:19):
in some ways but you could begay and also stealing land, you
know like but there's, there isdeeper meaning in thinking of
people who went west looking fora place to bloom and to
reinvent themselves.
See, that's a romance hero Ifuck with, listen.
I've read quite a few gaycowboys in my day.
(19:39):
Um 15 years ago, when the mmscene was really taking off in
romance, there was a lot of thegay cowboy romances and all of
them were written by whiteauthors.
But they were gay, they weremen who were going out there
into the unknown and they werestaking their claim of their
little piece of America and theywere starting over and like
(20:04):
reinventing themselves, alsoromantically.
So again I think, and again Ithink that's like what makes it
all really interesting, right,like seeing it from our point of
view and kind of like unpackingthose aspects of it too, of
saying like these two things canbe true, these people can be,
uh, free to be themselvesromantically and find love, and
(20:26):
also let that like becomplicated in the sense that
they are also, you know,colonizing in some ways yeah, do
you know what this brings tomind?
Nikki Payne (20:40):
Marathon Cowboy by Sarah Black.
This is our romance for thisepisode what do you think about
it?
Oh, let's leave that for actthree, because we are going to
talk about this book and we'realso going to dive into the
themes of the gay.
Because we are going to talkabout this book and we're also
going to dive into the themes ofthe gay west.
We're going to talk about thisliberated space on the frontier
being a symbol for freedom andself-discovery and queer
narratives now we're writing offthis jack.
Adriana Herrera (21:02):
We've got some more tales to tell and more
trails to trail.
Nikki Payne (21:10):
Welcome back to Unbound.
Okay, marathon Cowboys, let'sget into it.
The book is about two artistsand the tropes are grumpy
sunshine.
There's only one studio.
One is Lorenzo Maryboy, who isa stoic retired Native American
Marine and a vivacious kind of amanic pixie dream boy.
Jesse and they end up workingtogether at Jesse's grandpa's
(21:34):
home in Marathon, texas.
From the beginning, from thestart, these two characters see
the world so differently and seetheir art as connected to their
experiences for vastlydifferent reasons.
Adriana Herrera (21:46):
I mean, on one end you've got Lorenzo, who's
trying to make sense of his timein the Marines, read Justice to
Civilian Life and trying to gethis comic Devil Dog off the
ground.
Nikki Payne (21:57):
While JC3, jesse's art is loud and demanding.
He wants the world to seethrough his eyes, and the
writing and the setting is socrisp and clear.
When I read this I wastransported so convincingly to
Big Sky's isolation longing.
And they also have a lot of funbanter.
They're talking about nicknamesand having profound
(22:20):
conversations about what itmeans to make art, what it means
to communicate.
There's so much depth and we areallowed to see the setting of
Marathon, texas actually work onthem, open them up, right.
This is actually what I loveabout westerns is that the
setting does character work aswell, and Justin is much more
(22:41):
flirty and open about hissexuality when they are in
Marathon, which actually getshim into some pretty dangerous
situations.
There's this instance where heis in a bar and gets into some
trouble and Lorenzo comes tosave him.
This is a theme that we seeoften in Western romances and
this politics of protection.
This is exactly what DixonWildhorse from Beverly Jenkins'
(23:05):
Topaz would have done to protectour hero or heroine.
A lot of our characters aremoving into safe spaces, places
where it's safer to be gay,places where it's safer to be
queer, places where it's saferto be a person of color, and so
there's this politics of aprotector that moves them to
(23:26):
that safe space, and I thinkwe're seeing that in Marathon
Cowgirls.
Adriana Herrera (23:29):
And I mean I think part of it with them
specifically, like the dynamicbetween Lorenzo and Jesse is
also like of the time.
I think this book is about 12years old, maybe 13 years old,
and I think that was like it's agood example of an era of of
queer romance, or specificallymm, which is like a romance
(23:51):
between two men where thingswere very gendered.
You had your femme, uh,character and you had your more
mass character, which usuallymeant one was comfortable with
the sensuality and the other onewas in the closet.
One was like physically smaller, one was like physically
stronger and bigger, one wasmore fragile emotionally, you
(24:12):
know what I mean.
One was more stoic, and thatdichotomy is also something that
like is very apropos of thewest right, like you usually had
these pairings of of characterswhere usually one was more like
the, the one that was likestronger mentally and physically
(24:33):
, and the other one who was themore, uh, you know, sent, like
emotional, perhaps like the onethat mentally had a little bit
more fragility, and one ended upprotecting the other until the
tables turned.
That is kind of like a reallytried and true arc of the
(24:55):
western Right.
What's interesting here, too, isthat Marathon isn't Lorenzo or
Jesse's home.
They're both exiles in a way.
They're both new there.
This is not their space.
Like.
Jesse has a history with it,but it's not where he's from.
So he really is kind ofcharting a new ground there.
(25:18):
And Jesse's there because hehad to leave San Francisco
because of some trouble, becausehe kind of starts trouble, and
Lorenzo is coming back tocivilian life after serving in
the military and this westernsetting is is where they start
over you know, what's sointeresting about this story is
(25:41):
that neither of these charactersare actually cowboys.
Nikki Payne (25:47):
But, like thinking about thinking about cowboys, I
think we have to start seeingthem as a symbol that does a lot
of real political work.
So there's this like idea ofAmerican rugged individualism
and traditional masculinity Sure, the cowboy does that.
But it's also this kind of likenational, like FYP, like this
(26:14):
story that we keep tellingourselves and we keep clicking
on and it constantly reinforcingto us who we are and what we
believe.
I was reading this article inthis historic and this historian
, richard Slotkin.
He calls Cowboy Miss theprimary language of historical
memory.
So this is like how we areremembering ourselves as a, as a
(26:36):
country.
It's literally our algorithm toourselves.
This is who we are.
Here's our proof.
We click on it.
This is who we are.
Here's our proof, we click onit.
Adriana Herrera (26:42):
This is who we are, I mean the, the, the cowboy
really is such such a big partof the myth of america right,
like I mean, I know, as someonethat didn't grow up here, I grew
up in in the caribbean butconsuming a lot, lot of American
media, I don't know if therewould be a more quintessential
(27:06):
figure of lore, of like Americanlore that I could come up with
visually, than the cowboy.
Like sure you have the robberbarons or whatever, but none of
that comes to mind.
You know what I mean.
None of that is as emblematicas the cowboy and it's also it's
(27:29):
taking a symbol that's being interms of our kind of
interpretation of that myth andqueering it up, so to speak.
It's taking that symbol that'sbeen used to propagate a very
certain type of Americannarrative and opening it up to
include those who were alwaysthere but never acknowledged.
Nikki Payne (27:49):
Yeah, yeah.
Not only that, the books ingeneral have these broad threads
, these still threads that runthrough them, right?
So when we're reading andwatching and listening to a lot
of queer media about the West,those themes of isolation,
community and even a alone withthis thing that you know about
(28:10):
yourself, and don't know whereit's safe to unleash it or to
disclose it.
Adriana Herrera (28:30):
So, like the vast and often lawless landscape
of the West, provide a backdropwhere traditional societal
norms can be reimagined orignored.
Just it's such a perfect placefor queer individuals to kind of
like, let themselves be whothey are without the danger of
(28:53):
suppression.
Nikki Payne (28:55):
No, that's real talk.
The physical and symbolicisolation is crucial, right?
But like you're alone.
But what do you do with thatsolitude, right?
I think that's the differenceIn queer Western media isolation
often turns into self-discovery, and it's a pivotal difference
that allows characters to forgeidentities away from societal
(29:15):
scrutiny.
Adriana Herrera (29:15):
Yeah, I mean it makes me think a lot about
Brokeback Mountain and like thepossibility of letting that
movie actually be a movie thatis from like a queer gaze that
can hold a freedom, you know,and liberation, like a queer
feminist gaze, because thenthese men would have been
(29:37):
allowed to just love each otherright and found a way to be
together and would have found acommunity right, like I think
part of of the missing piece, um, in a story like brokeback
mountain is that they had no oneto turn to to be able to like,
see possibility of what theycould be.
(29:59):
And that is a piece of like thatWestern story where ultimately,
like a queer feminist, you know, bipoc gays would have to
envision a way to buildcommunity once you've reached
(30:20):
your place in the West, becausecommunity is the emphasis of
isolation, but equally vital.
This sounds counterintuitive,but those men were very much
alone, together out in thevastness of the West, so they
were each other's community andultimately, for them to actually
be able to thrive, they've gotto find more of them, of people
(30:43):
like themselves.
Nikki Payne (30:44):
Mmm, I mean, but hold up, hold up, like I
understand community, but like,aren't we being too right now
about this?
I just can't imagine cowboyscoming out to their friends and
loved ones like after the trail.
They're just like okay, let me,just now, I'm in my community,
I'm safe.
Wasn't this just like thesexuality of opportunity?
Adriana Herrera (31:05):
hashtag, hashtag gay for the state?
Um, gay for today?
Um so?
So I mean thinking about itlike again, like it's just like
a place that anything ispossible, right?
So like cowhands or thesetransient people perhaps didn't
(31:28):
have the modern, very rigidframework of sexual orientation
that we have.
The binary of sexual identitiesis relatively modern, emerging
prominently in the last twocenturies.
So prior to that, thedistinctions between and.
(31:48):
Then we have to take intoconsideration that everyone in
the West wasn't coming from apuritanical, like white
Christian like framework.
There were people from Mexico,there were Native Americans,
there were indigenous peoplefrom Mexico, you know what I
mean.
There were people that werecoming from Africa, there were
(32:09):
people that were coming fromeverywhere.
So these people perhaps didn'thave the same views of, like
homosexuality, heterosexualitythat we have been fed in in,
like representations of the Westand the media.
So all of this was less definedand in many societies,
(32:30):
including the American frontier,sexual behaviors were often
influenced more by situationalfactors than strict personal
identities.
Relationships and identitieswere fluid and shaped more by
personal connection andnecessity rather than strict
labels.
Nikki Payne (32:48):
Oh, that cowboy is embracing the complexity and
fluidity of identities betterthan we do now.
Adriana Herrera (32:53):
Let's talk about the hanky code, for
instance.
Nikki Payne (32:56):
Oh yeah, absolutely .
We don't need to tell you thatthere was a shortage of women in
the West.
We don't need to tell you thatthere was a shortage of women in
the West.
There's mostly mythos, but thebandana system was actually set
up to signal sexual preferencein all of these male dominated
dances and saloons, california,where people would want to hang
(33:20):
out and dance and vibe with eachother, and they needed, like,
really quick symbols, right tolet you know like, hey, I'm, I'm
doing, I'm running this show,this is what I like.
Let's um, I don't want to.
I don't know what all we cansay down there this is a family
show.
Okay, okay, um.
(33:42):
Originally these practicalaccessories for cowboys and rail
workers in California, thatbandana evolved into a very
nuanced code, particularly inqueer communities, especially
seen in the 1970s, to start toadvertise your desires.
And growing up I, interestinglyenough, only associated
bandanas with gangs, which arehonestly still largely male.
(34:07):
Hyper masculine spaces.
Wait, are gang bangers, urbancowboys.
I see a lot happening here.
No, gangs and mafia.
That's another episode.
Adriana Herrera (34:18):
That's another season that's another season,
but I like what you're cooking.
Episode, that's another season.
That's another season.
That's another season, but Ilike what you're cooking.
I'm going to let you cook inanother season.
So, as we wrap up today'sjourney, we're left with the
question if the cowboy canembody such diverse and complex
(34:38):
identities, what does this sayabout the potential for other
American categories to evolvethe housewife, the company man,
the millennial, the boomer, theveteran?
So, as we consider movingforward, how do we honor the
death and diversity of queeridentities in retelling of
Western myths?
Nikki Payne (34:58):
Oh, we're leaving you with questions.
Okay, y'all not ready for that.
Not that Aristotelian.
Thank you for joining us onthis journey through the queer
West.
As we close this chapter,remember the West and people
from the West may not have allbeen crooked, but they probably
weren't all straight either.
The gay West hinged on slipperyidentity and community.
(35:20):
We've also seen how theisolation of the frontier
offered this unique canvas forself-discovery and how those
communal bonds formed in themost unexpected places and it
shaped the way that we actuallysee the West today.
As we leave you, here's somecool things we'd love to see
from you.
You have homework, see.
We know that there are gayrodeos happening all over the
(35:41):
country.
If there's one going on nearyou, send us a flyer, send us a
link.
We want to see it.
Adriana Herrera (35:47):
Share with us your favorite country song send
us pics of you in your flyestcowboy gear.
We want to share your iconicwestern styles.
I want to see chaps.
I want to see boots.
I want to see spurs.
I want to see spurs.
I want to see fringe.
We'll compile it and share allthese images in our episode
(36:07):
announcement.
Thank you for riding with ustoday on Unbound.
If you love what you heard,don't forget to subscribe, Leave
us a review and share thispodcast with your friends.
Your support helps us keepbringing these stories to life.
Find us on all major podcastplatforms and follow us on
TikTok, YouTube and Instagramfor updates and behind the
scenes content.
(36:27):
Until next time, keep yourhearts unbound.
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