July 5, 2024 • 51 mins
In this week's intriguing episode of Unbound, titled "Everything Your Man Won't Do," hosts Nikki Payne and Adriana Herrera dive headfirst into the complexities of relationships and the myriad ways their male protagonists might differ from what listeners expect. They explore the fascinating topic of how certain actions or inactions can make or break a connection, particularly when it comes to characters of color in a Western romance setting. The discussion revolves around the idea that readers often crave redemption arcs for their favorite characters, but is it necessary for Black leads to undergo such a transformation? Is there room for growth without atonement?
Join Nikki and Adriana as they delve into the nuances of character development, the potential double standards applied to Black heroes, and how these tropes either enrich or stifle the genre. Through candid conversations, thought-provoking anecdotes, and a deep appreciation for storytelling, the cohosts unpack the expectations surrounding masculinity, desires, and the journey towards fulfillment in a world where legends are born. Get ready to reconsider common conventions and embrace new perspectives on love, honor, and what constitutes the irresistible cowboy.
Read these award winning books from our co-hosts:
Sex, Lies and Sensibility, by Nikki Payne (Pre-Order)
In this contemporary diverse retelling of Jane Austen's Sense and Sensibility, two sisters find themselves and find love in the rustic beauty of Maine.
Run Darling, by New York Times best selling Author Adriana Herrera
All Arabella Gaspar wanted was to buy some fun sexy grown-up toys for her first time leading her house’s run, but after one or two—okay, a dozen—threats from Magi who don’t think a girl should be a Toy Runner (eye-roll) her overprotective brothers have stuck her with none other than Rhyne Carrasco to be her bodyguard.
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Can't get enough of Nikki Payne? Check out her website at:
https://www.nikkipaynebooks.com/
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https://adrianaherreraromance.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Unbound podcast, the podcast
that explores the intersectionof pop culture and steamy world
of romance literature.
Join us as we celebrate thevoices and stories often left in
the shadows and unravel thethreads of joy, passion and
heartache that keep us allcoming back to the page on the
screen.
I'm Madre Herrera and I writeromance novels with hot and
(00:22):
horny Latina people.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
And I'm Nikki Payne and I write steamy romance based
on the books you're forced toread in high school Alpha holes,
billionaires, basketballplayers, hockey players, bullies
.
Romance loves an asshole.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
I mean, it's no secret that in the last few
years, romance has gone in hardwith the morally gray hero,
morally graphite hero.
It's darker than gray babes.
It's the villain People thatare unequivocally evil are
(01:07):
romance heroes and romanceheroes that we root for.
So we want to know what that'sall about and who gets to be
that morally graphite hero.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Yeah, first of all, I love graphite.
It's giving pencil, I love it.
This is a good question.
Who is actually allowed to bethis asshole who is given the
grace to stomp all over awoman's heart and put it back
together again in this morallygray fashion, turns out, it's
complicated.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Welcome, welcome, welcome.
You're tuned in to unbound, thepodcast where we take you on a
wild ride to the world of popculture and romance, sometimes
with our rose-colored glassesoff.
I'm adriana hera.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I write romance full of people who look and sound
like my people gettingunapologetic happy endings and
I'm your co-host, nikki payne,black jane austen fangirl author
, author of Pride and Protest, acultural anthropologist by day
and belligerent wine mom bynight.
Thank you all for joining us.
Today we're talking about allthe things your man can't do,
(02:16):
adriana.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
So yeah.
So what can't our BIPOC heroesdo, and what can't they do in
these romance streets?
First thing is they can't betoo flawed.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Oh, no, yeah, oh no.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Yeah, they can be flawed, but not too flawed,
because then they can't beheroic.
So the perfect victim trope.
So the perfect victim tropeOften male characters of color
are expected to be flawless, togain sympathy or be seen as
worthy of love.
Any imperfection or flaw ismagnified, unlike their white,
(03:06):
internalized and been impactedby the representation in the
media.
So we already have, like this,serious hindering limits to what
we can do with a Black hero,but not going too hard, because
if we write a hero who isruthless, who is violent, who is
(03:27):
aggressive, who is like losthis humanity, we are in
territory that can get us introuble with white readers and
Black readers, because whitereaders can't tolerate a violent
Black man, can't see him asheroic, and I'm not making that
up.
You can go to the bestsellerlist for dark romance and for
(03:50):
mafia romance and you will seehow many of them are Black or
Latino heroes or Asian heroes.
She said Google it.
And if we do go down that way,then we're also going to be hit
even from our own communitysaying why are you portraying us
as criminals, as gangsters, as,et cetera, et cetera, et cetera
(04:13):
.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Now double down on this.
Not only can they not have thisincredibly dark past, they
can't even be redeemed Like.
There can't even be a nice arcto say you know what?
You know?
Michael was this ruthlessperson and now he is falling in
love with this person.
A white hero can have a darkpast.
(04:34):
It can make terrible mistakesand still find a way to be
redeemable by the end of thatstory.
However, male heroes of colormight and are often not given
that same grace.
Their mistakes when they steal,when they kill they're seen as
inherent parts of theirpersonality I'm a killer, I'm a
thief, et cetera and they're notgiven opportunities for growth.
(04:57):
They stay that way, or are seenas staying that way somehow,
throughout the entire book.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Yeah, because part of it too is because white men get
to be individuals, you get tobe a person with a personal
history that perhaps hasimpacted your life journey, the
reason why you've made thechoices that you've made, the
reasons why you've ended up inthis life of crime, and are
(05:23):
reasons around that, and there'sa inherent um grace given to
white men and also like animplicit recognition of their
humanity.
Right like there's a human,there's a soul to be redeemed,
there's a heart to be to beatagain in that white man who is
(05:46):
an individual.
Black men are a representationof their entire race.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Come on the monolith Okay, pookie is us, okay, ray
Ray and Nim is all of us, all ofus, every single time, every
single time, all of us.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Juan Rodriguez on the block is every Dominican person
that ever lived.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
He is, he is, he's every Dominican pop.
Yes, I'm thinking of that SNLskit.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Right, he does an accent so well that it's
honestly unnerving.
You should go and Google onYouTube Poppy and SN SNL and you
will have a very good time withthose skits.
But anyway but like that pieceof we can't be detached from the
(06:41):
and it's something thathistorically like I was
listening the other day to aspeech by the actress, the first
Black woman to win the firstAcademy Award, and in her speech
she talks about being a creditto her race and like it's
confirmed by the lady who givesher the award, who's like a
(07:03):
white woman.
So like it's like historicallywe have been, you know, seen as
a representation of every personthat has our same skin color,
as opposed to white men.
White people get to beindividuals and have like a
personal history that explainswho they are.
Yeah, yeah, um.
(07:26):
And so illustrations of this inromance like there's a lot of
examples, but we like it's easyto look at it like mafia romance
versus urban romance urbanromance.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
What is?
What is the difference?
Speaker 1 (07:38):
adriana tell me, the only difference between mafia
romance and urban romance isthat mafia romance has white men
as heroes who wear suits andwho get to be heroes for
mainstream for, like a largeswath of the romance leadership.
(08:00):
And then urban romance hasBlack men who perhaps wear not
suits.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Not suits, but they protect their family.
They do morally great things toprotect the ones they love.
They're the top of their crimesyndicate, right?
Yeah, yeah, they're always fine, they're always packing.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
They're always fine, they're always packing, they're
always driving fancy cars, justlike the Monster.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Women's heroes.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Very fancy cars.
Yes, they enjoy expensivecognac, come on.
And they are generous, yeah,and they fight for what they
believe in right To protecttheir people, to protect their
territory, to protect theirwoman.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yeah, absolutely, and always to protect their woman.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
And so, what is the difference?
And yet, um, urban, you know,quote, unquote, is, you know, a
little too street to ghetto.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Oh yeah, I mean honestly, you, you, you.
All you have to do is perusethe tiktoks to have to see even,
you know, black readers sayinglike I'm not reading that, you
know I'm not.
Look at that cover, right, likethere's this notion of like no,
it's not professional, it'sghetto, it's not real, it's not,
um, not like an experience thatI want to glamorize, I don't
(09:28):
want to romanticize this.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
And yet, honey sis, my sister in Christ, look at
what you are, look at what youare reading and so that is
that's kind of like the doublestandard, right.
And I mean I think about thisall the time and I know Jay-Z is
not everybody's favorite, but Iam a child of the 90s so I was
(09:53):
a Jay-Z fan before.
I was a Beyonce fan, who andeverybody knows my love for
Beyonce.
But I am 45, like Jay-Z was bigdeal in when I was growing up
and to me Jay-Z's journey likeembodies the American dream and
yet, and like if you, if youthink about who should get to be
(10:15):
a dark romance hero, I don'tthink there's anybody that's
more perfect to me than SeanCarter.
I mean quite frankly, literallyfrom the projects to a
billionaire, talented, smart, amagnate, has built an empire
from his wit and, yes, he'skilled a couple people, but he
(10:40):
makes champagne.
Now, come on.
And he's six feet 20.
Okay, he likes art, he likesart, he collects basquiat's.
Okay, it's.
Come on, he's married tobeyonce.
How is not every other romancenovel that comes out, jay-z or
(11:06):
some kind of Jay-Z-like man nota romance hero?
There was a Travis Kelsey TaylorSwift one came out for like 10
minutes so to me and like butbut yet a kkk, literally like a
kkk, a clansman, a clans, a manwhose legacy is the ku klux klan
(11:33):
, a terror organization that hassystematically killed,
violently killed, people ofcolor, queer, queer people,
jewish people for decades.
Catholics, catholics, yeah.
Haunted them down and murderedthem for no reason.
(11:54):
A Klansman can be a romancehero and a Sean Carter cannot.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
This actually brings me to my next point about
success, the unequivocallysuccessful Sean Carter.
If he were in a romance novel,there would be four to five
chapters of backstory about howhe became successful.
Characters, heroes of color,cannot be unambiguously
successful.
(12:23):
Characters, heroes of color,cannot be unambiguously
successful.
Oftentimes people have thisstereotype that a character of
particularly a Black or Latinoman has to prove they're somehow
worthy of or deserve theirsuccess or happiness.
So if they are the CEO, if theyare incredibly wealthy, they
(12:44):
had to have gone through thislandmine of work.
They had to do that poem likelife for me ain't been no
crystal stair, but that's likethe title of the chapter Right,
and which you show them workingtheir ass off to get there, and
that's.
That's completely fine.
They can't just be a CEO or awealthy individual.
(13:06):
They have to have this big,large backstory that justifies
their status.
And you don't know how manybooks that I've cracked open
where white characters who existin these roles without any
explanation.
It's just Tanner and Tanner'sthe CEO, and take a bit
literally.
You open it from the beginningand Tanner's the CEO and like.
(13:26):
Take it Like, literally.
Like.
You open it from the beginningand Tanner's the CEO and what
Like and don't ask.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Tanner was just born in a little suit with a little
briefcase.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Tanner was born in a suit and a briefcase and it's
unambiguous.
There's this notion of, andalso, like when we're writing
heroes, we have to turn theseheroes into exceptional Black
men, into exceptional Latino men, into exceptional men, because
only the special, only theexceptional is actually worthy
(13:59):
of that happiness and joy andworthy of the heroine, I think,
that person who is entitled tounambiguous success.
If you are a character of color, it has to be really, really
straightforward that you areworthy of that money and that
success.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Yeah, and even part of it too, and this is something
that I've thought about in afew romances that I've read that
are written not by Black women,that there's this implication,
almost, that for a Black personto reach that level, there
almost has to be a They've hadto part with those harmful
beliefs or harmful culturalthings that were holding him,
(14:50):
her back.
That part, you know, and that isa dangerous, dangerous
narrative, because it reallydoes imply that for us to see
success, for us to be seen andtaken in and absorbed as success
(15:11):
, like we have to like leavebehind the roots.
Right, which is interesting andalso kind of comes into part of
like what, what you were sayingbefore in terms of like, this
idea that, like, you have tojustify and there's no need,
(15:34):
there's no staying for a whiteperson to be a legacy person,
right, like, affirmative actionis a like, not a feature.
Right, like you got in becauseyou, you know you were like the
token, the percentage theyneeded to include.
It has nothing to do with yourskill, your talent, but being
legacy like your grandpappy'slast name is on a couple of the
(15:57):
buildings on the campus has nobearing on the fact of whether
you deserve to be there or not.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
That part.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
And it's like unquestioned, like sure, my dad
owns this company, but I knowhow to run it.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Yeah, it's a given.
Yeah, because I am his son.
My blood proves that I'm worthyof this.
Yeah, I mean, honestly speaking, of blood.
I mean you all may not knowthis because I write
contemporary romance but I'mactually a Regency girlie.
I cut my teeth in the Regencyand one of the things that I
(16:37):
always find unspoken about howRegency heroes are incredibly
wealthy and like everyone's aDuke, but we've already talked
about that Everyone's a Duke,but like they're all incredibly
wealthy, but how, how have theygotten their money?
How have they become incrediblywealthy?
If a Regency novel mentions theCaribbean or the colonies, it's
(17:02):
always this way that we canpush aside.
We can, particularly in Regency.
It's great for this, it's greatfor escape, because all of the
terrible things, all of theracism, all of the ill-begotten
gains are happening off page.
They're happening in this way,that's not in front of your face
(17:23):
, which is why it's very hardfor like kind of regency or
gilded age stuff to take off inthe United States.
But it's off the page.
And there are all these wayswhere these heroes are allowed
to be unambiguously wealthy andunquestioned wealth, and it
never comes up how they gotmoney.
(17:43):
But I can guarantee you it'soff of sugar, it's off of other
kind of it's cotton right, Likeatrocities, like money that
comes from literal atrocitiesand it's never alluded to.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
It's like you know he went like in his little room,
Springa.
He went out there for a year.
He came back, had all thismoney and nobody questions.
Nobody questions why invictorian romances there are all
these wealthy american heroineswho have all this money, who
(18:22):
are coming to the UK to marrymen with titles who are now
broke.
Why?
Because they no longer haveslave money.
They don't have free labor inthe colonies.
But guess who has labor inAmerica?
The dads of the heiresses.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Come on, come on, come on.
And yet, like Black wealth isseen as a historical right,
inconceivable, needing to bejustified.
When I mean Black wealth,empires have like risen and
fallen in the United States.
I mean hair care, you name it.
There are all sorts ofparticularly interesting pockets
(19:03):
in the Northeast of incredibleblack wealth, and yet that's
going to need some untangling.
You're going to have to explainyourself, sir.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
And a lot of ingenuity, but also like a lot
of like secondary economy money,like people that did like deal
in illegal things because thatwas the only way that they could
have some upward socialmobility.
And yet we like all thosestories are not like anything
(19:35):
anybody's interested.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
We are very interested in glorifying the Al
Capones right, so yeah, come onwith the morally gray hero of
color in the period piece, likeyou.
You have me thinking now likewhere, where is our like?
Where is our like bootleggingblack hero you know well.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
You have movies like harlem knights right, where um
you have men who are Black menin mafia doing illicit things.
But it's a comedy.
They have to be defamed.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
You know, not real danger.
You're not really in danger,folks.
Nothing to see here.
You're fine, let's have a laugh.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
And then you go to movies like Goodfellas, where
you have brutal men.
Yeah, and it's cultural.
It's a cultural like, it'sglamorized and it's things to
aspire to and emulate, like RayLiotta's character is someone to
emulate and admire A brutalkiller.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
How many if you grew up in the same time I grew up.
How many boys copied the like.
Oh my gosh, I can't believe I'mforgetting now Scarface, oh,
tony Montana, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like they literally copiedeverything he said over and over
(21:06):
all the time, like any middleschool boy was just screaming
out every single one of hislines.
It was absolutely the glamour.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
And I and I always think about Tony Montana,
specifically because same I grewup in the 90s, I am a huge fan
of the Godfather.
Actually I love those movies,trivia.
My mom was an extra inGodfather Part II but because it
was filmed in the DR, it wasfilmed at the American Public.
I'm so cute.
But I think a lot about TonyMontana, specifically because
(21:35):
Tony Montana, had he looked,like a Tony Montana would
actually look, had they actuallycasted a black Cuban, for
example.
I wonder if it would have beenthe cultural phenomenon that it
was and specifically that waveof immigration which was like
the Marielitos, which were menthat were literally like Fidel
(21:59):
Castro, opened the prisons andso, like that wave of immigrants
had a lot of Black Cubans.
I wonder if, if it would havebeen made through the lens of
someone who understood thatspecific wave of like the Cuban
(22:21):
diaspora and who would have castan actual Cuban man, would it
have been the success that itwas?
And Tony, who had, for example,I mean like a Latin man wanting
to have a blonde, blue-eyedwoman tracks as part of his
(22:44):
legitimacy as a kingpin, as abigwig.
But again, tony Montana is aninteresting character to me and
again, this is how we get to beportrayed Like, not even by an
actor who's an actual Latinperson.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Yeah, so Was Tony an alcohol.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Was Tony an alcohol?
Yeah, I mean toxic masculinity.
Let's get into it.
Well, white heroes can oftendisplay aggressive dominant
traits and still be hot.
Honestly, their aggressivenessis a feature, not a bug.
Males of color displaying thesame traits can be quickly
(23:30):
labeled as threatening ordangerous and scary.
Due to racial biases,aggression in Black men is seen
as terrifying and in white menis seen as appealing.
Like choke me, like you areseven feet tall, like the idea
that a strange seven foot tallBlack man is like stalking you.
(23:53):
Yeah yes yes, would it get thetraction that it gets in romance
if it when it's a white hero?
Speaker 2 (24:05):
you know what I'm saying yeah, yeah, just imagine
just chanting.
You know, break my back at a,you know, at like in a urban
place where someone's likeplaying a street street ball
game.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
You know, crack my back Like no, you know, I have
never I have cracked my back toa seven foot tall basketball
player, point guard or a youknow a defense linesman in a
football game.
I guess hits different.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
It really does.
I want us to go on animagination journey.
Okay, when?
Speaker 1 (24:42):
I rose with color.
Glass is fine.
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Let's close our eyes.
Now imagine a hero who buys theheroin from her father, takes
her against her will maybe,locks her up in a room, maybe
feeds her some you know, creamcorn under the door, okay
Coerces her into sex, gets offon her.
Fear is a criminal, right.
(25:06):
When he's not with her, liketrying to, you know, make her
come.
He is killing.
He makes his money from illegalthings drugs, gambling,
prostitution.
He probably is a pimp or hasprostitutes or there are women
around him that just can'tsatisfy him anymore because he's
thinking of them, tenderonilocked in his basement, okay.
(25:27):
And he kills his adversariesruthlessly.
And I ask you, when you thoughtof this person in your
imagination, was he a Black hero?
Speaker 1 (25:38):
can he be a Black hero?
Like honestly can he be?
And then and again, like I wantto stress that I have no, like
I think dark romance satisfies aparticular id.
I think I understand thereasons why it's intriguing, why
it it's appealing, why it'scompelling, but what my question
(25:58):
is, the whiteness of it all, iswhat I'm asking.
And who gets to be that kind ofhero?
Who?
gets to be that kind of hero andI mean you see it right, like
like mayans and sons of anarchyis a perfect example, because
(26:19):
mayans I mean sons of anarchycame first but it was an a very
violent motorcycle club, didevery kind of crime you can
imagine there were and womenwere treated horribly and that
was the.
You know, the leader, jackson,was this gorgeous white, blonde
(26:40):
man and that that show prettymuch launched a sub-genre of of
romance, the motorcycle clubromance, golden era, and which
continues today to be a verypopular subgenre which you know
has a lot of questionable heroes.
(27:02):
Um, came from that show, fromthe sons of anarchy.
My hands is a motorcycle clubwith all Latin men and it is
just as ruthless, it is just asviolent.
It is not as popular withaudiences as Sons of Anarchy was
(27:23):
and I don't see, I mean I willsay this there are Latina
authors writing Marie Maravilla,jade Hernandez, santana, knox,
amy Oliveira, are all writingmotorcycle club syndicate
romance, but they're not nearlyas popular as the motorcycle
(27:47):
club romances that are with,like all white members.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
White members, who are also probably given a range
and depth of emotionalexperience.
This is another thing.
This is another thing that yourman can do.
Okay, this is a big one.
For me, black characters can'tget too multifaceted.
This is a big one and this isone that I see often with Black
(28:15):
readers and reviewers, where,when you give a character
incredible amounts of emotionaldepth or like white characters,
for example, are allowed thisfull range of emotions,
vulnerability, anger.
But male characters I'm usingthis honestly, mostly from the
Black experience they're oftenpigeonholed into being
(28:38):
perpetually stoic or even overlyemotional and when they run
this range of having multipletypes of experiences, that is
often seen as not Black enough.
And I feel like there are theseways where we do this to
ourselves, sometimes to protectour own culture in a way that we
(28:59):
understand that Black cultureis often siphoned off.
People dip their little strawinto Black culture and have
these ostensibly whitecharacters saying or doing these
Black things to add comedy.
So I understand the need tobuild walls and close ranks
around what Blackness is, butoftentimes what that also does
(29:21):
is when you are writing thischaracter, building this
character who is operatingsometimes outside of those walls
, then that character getspanned for this isn't Black
enough, or this isn't enough,like something's not hitting
black enough, or this is thisisn't enough, like something's
not hitting um, this characterdidn't ring true to me and those
are also wrapped up in these umideas of what blackness is and
(29:41):
that's harmful.
That's harmful as well.
So I mean often, oftentimes thisreads as misogynoir.
This is like this fancy wordthat is.
Honestly, it is a combinationof misogyny and anti-Blackness
and what that does is forcethese Black men into one having
(30:03):
extremely flat experiences andhaving extremely entangled and
non-complex relationships withBlack women.
And I think that is one of theproblems that I find myself like
writing sometimes into andtrying to write out of, of
(30:24):
writing these characters who canhave these kind of loving and
complex relationships withpeople around them and can think
within and without theseboundaries that we have put up,
and also like people outside inthe mainstream have also decided
this is Blackness and this isnot Blackness, right?
Like a Black person in a metalband, right?
Or a Black person who owns abakery and is queer, or you know
(30:50):
like.
There are all of theseexperiences where I think
there's room and and a lack ofpossibility for black male
heroes in a way that white here,that white heroes, have
incredible amounts ofpossibility for us right, and I
mean it's and and what um?
Speaker 1 (31:18):
and, like readers, really being able to imagine us
yeah beyond what we've allowedto be for so long in fiction and
in the media.
Right, and I and I think that'sthe work for us I am not
suggesting that anybody, likeyou know, there's plenty of
(31:42):
Black authors, indigenousauthors, authors who are people
of color, latinx authors thatare writing these stories.
But what we need is, likewithin our communities and also
in the wider reading world, forpeople to be able to just like,
give themselves permission toimagine us beyond what we have
(32:08):
been.
And there are, like ChristinaForrest, the partner, no, the
neighbor.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
The neighbor favor and the partner the neighbor
favor I haven't read the partnerplot, but the neighbor favor is
like a great cinnamon roll herocinnamon roll hero, who she's
also like, making this veryinteresting point about the, the
rigors of black excellence andthe way that it can, you know,
kind of force you into this wayof seeing yourself.
(32:37):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean, theNeighborhood is a great example.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Natalie Kanya, a dish best served hot, has got
everything that you want in aromance.
It's got a veteran single dadhero who's really grappling with
being softer yeah, with being aman that is able to feel his
feelings, and a heroine who has,like, a history like, who has
(33:05):
to be hard because of herupbringing and so like they find
softness in each other and likereally complex stories.
And so I think it's that pieceof readers being able to give
those stories a chance andreally being able to not come to
our stories of like this is myexpectation of what a story with
(33:28):
, like a black Puerto Rican manand like, and like you know, a
Latina heroine or whatever,should have.
Yeah, yeah.
And also the other piece ofthat I wanted, or we wanted, to
kind of ponder is we can't like,yeah, like we can't like what
(33:51):
people of color like, right,like those, yeah, like we are,
like we're in this, likestereotyping and like toxic
renditions of who we are andreductive renderings of who we
are have put us in this reallytough spot where we feel like if
(34:13):
we talk about how much we loveplantains, we're pandering.
Yep, right, so, so.
So then you can't write a blackman who loves some himself,
some watermelon in the summeryou can't do it.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
You literally can't do it.
Everyone's gonna roll theireyes.
Oh, my black guy lovingwatermelon.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Oh, we're doing this yes, like you can't write a.
A latin man who has had aproblem with cheating, and and
or or like the, the mysticalspiritual asian hero.
Yeah, because those things in,in, in, like the under the white
lens, have been madecaricatures.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
They are.
They're cultural shorthandsthat everyone is, like
incredibly familiar with, and soyou want to make, turn your
character away from that right,in a way to say, like we are not
a caricature, we are not amonolith right, but what it does
is like rob you of these sometypes of cultural experiences
(35:16):
that feel that feel likesomething that this character
would do.
I mean, if they're sitting on aporch having a family picnic
and there's no watermelon,because you know you're making a
point, congratulations Right.
But like was that true to thatcharacter?
Making a point, congratulationsright.
But like was that true to thatcharacter?
And how much are we moving ourcharacters to manage and and
(35:38):
hide away from, like the youknow, terrors sometimes of the
white gays and and is that stillart, you know?
Speaker 1 (35:45):
yeah, I mean, I think it's that piece of being able
to tolerate the idea of peoplewho are like what is a
traditional black person like ablack girl like do we all love
Beyonce?
most of us do, yes, but we alsolike some of us also like Taylor
(36:07):
Swift, and so like the piece ofit is that like like one of my
favorite non-traditional blackgirls is one named Yan, who is
the sister of Nora, the heroinefrom Sex Life and Sensibility.
And Yan is giving Solange, butSolange with the pixie cut
(36:31):
sometimes.
Solange in, but Solange withthe pixie cut sometimes.
Okay, solange in the elevator,she's giving Erykah Badu that
Lisa Bonet, like spiritual, likemy vibe, brings the boys to the
yard.
They want to get up in thisyoni.
They want to know what'shappening under this caftan.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Absolutely A crocheted caftan.
Absolutely, that's what she'swearing.
I love that you bring up Yan,because she is, to me, this
representation of she'sabsolutely a Black woman just by
virtue of the way that she'sgrown up and the way that she
experiences life and the lens bywhich she sees life.
(37:20):
But she's also a Shakespearescholar, she's a very bad expert
on mushrooms, she's all ofthese really complex and
complicated things.
She's a tarot reader and she'sbuilding her own experience and
stepping outside of the boundsof what a lot of people would
(37:43):
imagine is the place for Blackwomen and that's.
Those are the types of womenthat I like to write that are
grounded in who they are andwhat their experience is and
their lens is their lens, butare also pushing beyond what
they know and pushing outside ofthat.
Another great example of thatto me is Regina Black's Rachel
(38:07):
in the Art of Scandal, who issomething that we don't see a
lot is this black trophy wifethat she is just bought and sold
to look pretty and be great forcampaigns.
You know, for this progressive,for this progressive politician
, and she is bought to be.
You know how.
You mentioned Tony Montana,montana, and you know the kind
(38:30):
of blonde haired, blue eyed wayto represent status Right and
like, imagine, like putting thisblack woman as a representation
, one of your progressivepolitics and your status as this
type of of man.
I mean, it's saying somethingdifferent about what status
means and I just, and I love, Ilove a messy, trophy wife is a
black woman.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
And she is messy.
It was one of the things that Ireally appreciated about her
character, even though, becauseI am so used to reading about
black women that have it alltogether and and and like,
understand their situationclearly and know where they have
to get to and have noopportunity to be messy, to be
flawed to, to flail Right, likethat.
(39:13):
That like to flail right, likethat, to me, was a great example
of like this is someone thathas to grow through the story
and doesn't start out knowingeven who she is anymore.
I think Talia Hibbert writesthat kind of heroine.
Talia Hibbert really writesheroines that just are Black.
(39:33):
That's the body they're in andtheir messiness and their
insecurities and all of thatstuff that comes out of just
being a woman in the world isthe story and the story is not.
I'm Black and this is what I'mdoing.
I think there's just a lot oflike, a lot of authors doing
(39:56):
that kind of work and and it isimportant because it really is
expanding what black culture canbe or the black experience can
be um in romance.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
I mean, uh, even outside of books and media, like
one of my favorite heroines isfrom Abbott Elementary Right.
She is quintessential, she isblack Right and in the way, in
her experience and the way thatshe's grown up, and I mean even
in the neighborhood that she isteaching, right, but she is also
(40:34):
interestingly out of step in alot of really like important
cultural ways that people wouldimagine.
This is Blackness Right andit's her out of stepness with
with that that endears us to herto say, like she is supposed to
think this way or love thispurse, right, you know, or act
in this particular way, rightshe?
Speaker 1 (40:56):
is a nerd, she can't, she's awkward, she doesn't
really dress very well, she'snot smooth, she's not.
She doesn't know what a Telfarbag is, she doesn't know what
would be considered like blackblack woman in 2023.
(41:23):
And yet she, literally.
I mean she's from philly, likeone of the like historically
black cities in america where,like black wealth, black, the
legacy of, like black excellenceis like alive and you feel it.
And yet she really is like agirl that just likes nerdy
(41:46):
things.
And she in the nuance even inher romance, which is honestly
one of the great romanceshappening right now in
television the best.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Wilbur in like happening right now, and he is a
non-traditional Black heroright Like.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
He is also kind of nerdy.
He's not super suave, he's notbig tall guy, he's like skinny
short guy.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
And he's rigid and he's exacting and he's
persnickety and he's rigid andhe's exacting and he's
persnickety and he's a gardener.
I just like everything,everything about him, right and
and especially in.
You know, traditionally in theUnited States, like black
culture has been like at theavant-garde of cool, like what
it means to like act and be cool.
(42:31):
That's mostly aped from blackculture, like phrases like you
go, girl, which is like you knowyour grandma can say that now,
but in the nineties that wasMartin, oh my gosh Saying all
these things.
So like like taking that, whatyou see is like the avant-garde
of cool and and bringing thatback to two individuals right,
(42:56):
who are out of step with that.
But also, you know, I'm part ofthat culture as well.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
I just I love it.
Yeah, I love it too.
I'm going to leave this as abookmark for the two of us for
later.
I think we need to do anepisode of A Different World and
Living Single and how and whatthat I mean.
I think Abbott Elementary is adirect descendant from that
(43:22):
moment in time in television.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
Yes From Kyle Barker, who was my first love.
Yes, okay, kyle and Max.
Is there a better enemies tolove than them?
Speaker 1 (43:33):
There's not, ma'am, I'm sorry, all right, welcome
Mark, welcome Mark.
Lastly, we have come, I think,to what we are calling we can no
longer be delicious.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
I'm mad about it.
There's a ban on delicious skinand y'all, we didn't do it to
ourselves.
No caramel skin, no cinnamoncolor eyes my one of my favorite
songs d'angelo, when he'sdescribing this beautiful woman.
Okay, he says her skin iscaramel, with the cocoa eyes.
And you got, you saw her, didyou not see her?
(44:12):
You saw her right you did this.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
You saw her, d'angelo , my gosh, what a cultural
juggernaut.
Um, but part of it is is thatwe now have to ourselves because
of, again, like the, themistreatment of descriptions of
(44:36):
our bodies in media and infiction.
We came to this place where,like you're avoiding saying that
it's brown skin because brownskin is considered something
that is not attractive.
So we've gone to this place oflike, then, we can't be
described as something deliciouslike brown sugar, and yet in in
(44:57):
romance, you know, white heronscan still have milky skin, can
still have creamy complexions,can still have that alabaster,
glow, alabaster, and we can't becinnamon anymore, we can't be
cinnamon anymore, we can't becaramel, we can't be toffee, we
can't be delicious, deliciousbrown sugar, and it is, and it's
(45:22):
honestly a handicap to us interms of, like, our writing,
because that is part of theconvention of language in
romance, like, you have to useevocative language, you have to
use the lush descriptions, andwhat is more lush than caramel?
Speaker 2 (45:40):
oh, oh, come on, come on right.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
Yes, cinnamon sugar thighs, like you see it just you
see it just like you want tobite into it.
You know what I'm saying here's?
Speaker 2 (45:54):
the thing is and I'll just say this, a lot like I
want to write a character thatsomeone wants to bite into you
know, I want to write acharacter that you you try to
look for a napkin to dab thecorners of your mouth like that
is the, that is the heroine I'mtrying to write.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
That's the mission and a man that sees it thinks to
himself my god, she looks likeperfect, perfect cake and I want
to take a bite out of her assbecause it looks so delicious it
is okay, even when you saidthat I just bit my knuckles
(46:29):
because, yes, you want him tosay I want to take a bite of
that cake yes, and I think partis that we and this is part of
like the, the landscape, wenavigate right where we are
because so much of the narrativeof how our black characters,
latin characters, asiancharacters have been, you know,
(46:50):
like and like.
We could talk for days aboutlike, objectification and like
over sexual sexualization ofblack men.
Right, like, like, okay, now wecan't say that black men have
big dicks.
Baby, they have them.
Why can't you say it?
Why can't I see it?
Okay, you can't he's a show,and we should say it, we should
(47:14):
speak on that yeah, we shouldspeak on that.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
But also just personally, this is just a
little aside romance conventionsI know people want like you
know, hey, let's all think aboutlike different sizes, but I
mean I don't know if this isgoing in, but like, look, look
like I'm not writing a hero witha tiny little thing that they
(47:38):
got to work through, you know,and that's like you know.
I just I can't do it Likeromance, can do it and say, you
know, make it huge or get out ofhere.
Speaker 1 (47:49):
Like you can't, I'm sorry, I mean, but because we've
gotten into this place where,like you know, and the Mandingo
trope is a problem OK, it is aproblem, it is true and real
that a lot of white people were,you know, fascinated and
fetishized black men's penises,but then that means that we no
(48:11):
longer have the ability to talkabout a big dick, yeah, and so
again, I think we just have torethink where these tropes come
from and where like and the harmwas done.
But that doesn't mean that if Ihave a hero who is a particular
(48:32):
type of man and has aparticular type of physical
attributes, we can't say it andwe can't name it.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
Right.
Speaker 1 (48:39):
And so I think that, like, and then you have all
these you know white heroes thatcan have the size of a like you
know, of a, of a bat, Like theycan go home run.
And yet you know like we have towatch our words on how we
describe the bodies of Black menbecause they've been
(49:01):
objectified.
But then there's a differencebetween objectification and
appreciation.
Right, and it's all.
It has to do with gaze.
And it has to do with gaze,language, language and how you
see that character.
It has to do with gaze,language, language and how you
see that character.
If you see that character asjust like a vessel to like
pleasure, a white woman, thenyeah, that's a problem.
But if you are seeing this as aliteral, like God, he is
(49:25):
beautiful.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
That brown skin is popping, those muscles are
giving that hair is just rightand on point, those lips.
Baby are everything and you seehim as a beautiful man he is.
Speaker 1 (49:42):
Go ahead and describe that dick in detail.
Come on baby.
Come on baby.
Like I need to know how itlooks.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
Tell me about the veins.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
I want detail things about our beauty and the men in
our communities that only we cantruly like appreciate in our
culture and like all of it andlike just give them everything
they can and should have,because they are heroes.
They are romance heroes.
(50:29):
Yeah, they're hot as fuck.
They can move those hips, baby,like they were oiled from the
womb, okay come on, baby andthey, they're sexy, they're
gorgeous and and I think they,they should be allowed to be any
kind of man that that, they,they, they are in our story, in
(50:54):
the narrative that we have inour head, and like they deserve
to be the romance hero just asthey are.
Like we don't have to havethese qualifications of what a
Black man has to be or do to getto be a romance hero, just like
we don't do it for white men.
Speaker 2 (51:09):
Oh, I love it.
I love it.
I think that's all for us today.
Folks, we gotta head out ofhere.
There's some new drama ontiktok and we have to check it
out.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
Yes, we need to head out and, um, I'm gonna have to
go and read Alexandra House'sthem boys series, like just
right now, because thatconversation about penises just
like has me like thinking aboutthem and I have to go revisit
that series.
Speaker 2 (51:37):
Join us in two weeks as we unfasten the laces of
another pop culture phenomenon,and connect with us on Instagram
at UnboundPod, and share withus a story of a BIPOC hero that
you haven't seen and that youwish there was.
Welcome to the Unbound podcast, the podcast
that explores the intersectionof pop culture and steamy world
of romance literature.
Join us as we celebrate thevoices and stories often left in
the shadows and unravel thethreads of joy, passion and
heartache that keep us allcoming back to the page on the
screen.
I'm Madre Herrera and I writeromance novels with hot and
(00:22):
horny Latina people.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
And I'm Nikki Payne and I write steamy romance based
on the books you're forced toread in high school Alpha holes,
billionaires, basketballplayers, hockey players, bullies
.
Romance loves an asshole.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
I mean, it's no secret that in the last few
years, romance has gone in hardwith the morally gray hero,
morally graphite hero.
It's darker than gray babes.
It's the villain People thatare unequivocally evil are
(01:07):
romance heroes and romanceheroes that we root for.
So we want to know what that'sall about and who gets to be
that morally graphite hero.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Yeah, first of all, I love graphite.
It's giving pencil, I love it.
This is a good question.
Who is actually allowed to bethis asshole who is given the
grace to stomp all over awoman's heart and put it back
together again in this morallygray fashion, turns out, it's
complicated.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Welcome, welcome, welcome.
You're tuned in to unbound, thepodcast where we take you on a
wild ride to the world of popculture and romance, sometimes
with our rose-colored glassesoff.
I'm adriana hera.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I write romance full of people who look and sound
like my people gettingunapologetic happy endings and
I'm your co-host, nikki payne,black jane austen fangirl author
, author of Pride and Protest, acultural anthropologist by day
and belligerent wine mom bynight.
Thank you all for joining us.
Today we're talking about allthe things your man can't do,
(02:16):
adriana.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
So yeah.
So what can't our BIPOC heroesdo, and what can't they do in
these romance streets?
First thing is they can't betoo flawed.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Oh, no, yeah, oh no.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Yeah, they can be flawed, but not too flawed,
because then they can't beheroic.
So the perfect victim trope.
So the perfect victim tropeOften male characters of color
are expected to be flawless, togain sympathy or be seen as
worthy of love.
Any imperfection or flaw ismagnified, unlike their white,
(03:06):
internalized and been impactedby the representation in the
media.
So we already have, like this,serious hindering limits to what
we can do with a Black hero,but not going too hard, because
if we write a hero who isruthless, who is violent, who is
(03:27):
aggressive, who is like losthis humanity, we are in
territory that can get us introuble with white readers and
Black readers, because whitereaders can't tolerate a violent
Black man, can't see him asheroic, and I'm not making that
up.
You can go to the bestsellerlist for dark romance and for
(03:50):
mafia romance and you will seehow many of them are Black or
Latino heroes or Asian heroes.
She said Google it.
And if we do go down that way,then we're also going to be hit
even from our own communitysaying why are you portraying us
as criminals, as gangsters, as,et cetera, et cetera, et cetera
(04:13):
.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Now double down on this.
Not only can they not have thisincredibly dark past, they
can't even be redeemed Like.
There can't even be a nice arcto say you know what?
You know?
Michael was this ruthlessperson and now he is falling in
love with this person.
A white hero can have a darkpast.
(04:34):
It can make terrible mistakesand still find a way to be
redeemable by the end of thatstory.
However, male heroes of colormight and are often not given
that same grace.
Their mistakes when they steal,when they kill they're seen as
inherent parts of theirpersonality I'm a killer, I'm a
thief, et cetera and they're notgiven opportunities for growth.
(04:57):
They stay that way, or are seenas staying that way somehow,
throughout the entire book.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Yeah, because part of it too is because white men get
to be individuals, you get tobe a person with a personal
history that perhaps hasimpacted your life journey, the
reason why you've made thechoices that you've made, the
reasons why you've ended up inthis life of crime, and are
(05:23):
reasons around that, and there'sa inherent um grace given to
white men and also like animplicit recognition of their
humanity.
Right like there's a human,there's a soul to be redeemed,
there's a heart to be to beatagain in that white man who is
(05:46):
an individual.
Black men are a representationof their entire race.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Come on the monolith Okay, pookie is us, okay, ray
Ray and Nim is all of us, all ofus, every single time, every
single time, all of us.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Juan Rodriguez on the block is every Dominican person
that ever lived.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
He is, he is, he's every Dominican pop.
Yes, I'm thinking of that SNLskit.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Right, he does an accent so well that it's
honestly unnerving.
You should go and Google onYouTube Poppy and SN SNL and you
will have a very good time withthose skits.
But anyway but like that pieceof we can't be detached from the
(06:41):
and it's something thathistorically like I was
listening the other day to aspeech by the actress, the first
Black woman to win the firstAcademy Award, and in her speech
she talks about being a creditto her race and like it's
confirmed by the lady who givesher the award, who's like a
(07:03):
white woman.
So like it's like historicallywe have been, you know, seen as
a representation of every personthat has our same skin color,
as opposed to white men.
White people get to beindividuals and have like a
personal history that explainswho they are.
Yeah, yeah, um.
(07:26):
And so illustrations of this inromance like there's a lot of
examples, but we like it's easyto look at it like mafia romance
versus urban romance urbanromance.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
What is?
What is the difference?
Speaker 1 (07:38):
adriana tell me, the only difference between mafia
romance and urban romance isthat mafia romance has white men
as heroes who wear suits andwho get to be heroes for
mainstream for, like a largeswath of the romance leadership.
(08:00):
And then urban romance hasBlack men who perhaps wear not
suits.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Not suits, but they protect their family.
They do morally great things toprotect the ones they love.
They're the top of their crimesyndicate, right?
Yeah, yeah, they're always fine, they're always packing.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
They're always fine, they're always packing, they're
always driving fancy cars, justlike the Monster.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Women's heroes.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Very fancy cars.
Yes, they enjoy expensivecognac, come on.
And they are generous, yeah,and they fight for what they
believe in right To protecttheir people, to protect their
territory, to protect theirwoman.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yeah, absolutely, and always to protect their woman.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
And so, what is the difference?
And yet, um, urban, you know,quote, unquote, is, you know, a
little too street to ghetto.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Oh yeah, I mean honestly, you, you, you.
All you have to do is perusethe tiktoks to have to see even,
you know, black readers sayinglike I'm not reading that, you
know I'm not.
Look at that cover, right, likethere's this notion of like no,
it's not professional, it'sghetto, it's not real, it's not,
um, not like an experience thatI want to glamorize, I don't
(09:28):
want to romanticize this.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
And yet, honey sis, my sister in Christ, look at
what you are, look at what youare reading and so that is
that's kind of like the doublestandard, right.
And I mean I think about thisall the time and I know Jay-Z is
not everybody's favorite, but Iam a child of the 90s so I was
(09:53):
a Jay-Z fan before.
I was a Beyonce fan, who andeverybody knows my love for
Beyonce.
But I am 45, like Jay-Z was bigdeal in when I was growing up
and to me Jay-Z's journey likeembodies the American dream and
yet, and like if you, if youthink about who should get to be
(10:15):
a dark romance hero, I don'tthink there's anybody that's
more perfect to me than SeanCarter.
I mean quite frankly, literallyfrom the projects to a
billionaire, talented, smart, amagnate, has built an empire
from his wit and, yes, he'skilled a couple people, but he
(10:40):
makes champagne.
Now, come on.
And he's six feet 20.
Okay, he likes art, he likesart, he collects basquiat's.
Okay, it's.
Come on, he's married tobeyonce.
How is not every other romancenovel that comes out, jay-z or
(11:06):
some kind of Jay-Z-like man nota romance hero?
There was a Travis Kelsey TaylorSwift one came out for like 10
minutes so to me and like butbut yet a kkk, literally like a
kkk, a clansman, a clans, a manwhose legacy is the ku klux klan
(11:33):
, a terror organization that hassystematically killed,
violently killed, people ofcolor, queer, queer people,
jewish people for decades.
Catholics, catholics, yeah.
Haunted them down and murderedthem for no reason.
(11:54):
A Klansman can be a romancehero and a Sean Carter cannot.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
This actually brings me to my next point about
success, the unequivocallysuccessful Sean Carter.
If he were in a romance novel,there would be four to five
chapters of backstory about howhe became successful.
Characters, heroes of color,cannot be unambiguously
successful.
(12:23):
Characters, heroes of color,cannot be unambiguously
successful.
Oftentimes people have thisstereotype that a character of
particularly a Black or Latinoman has to prove they're somehow
worthy of or deserve theirsuccess or happiness.
So if they are the CEO, if theyare incredibly wealthy, they
(12:44):
had to have gone through thislandmine of work.
They had to do that poem likelife for me ain't been no
crystal stair, but that's likethe title of the chapter Right,
and which you show them workingtheir ass off to get there, and
that's.
That's completely fine.
They can't just be a CEO or awealthy individual.
(13:06):
They have to have this big,large backstory that justifies
their status.
And you don't know how manybooks that I've cracked open
where white characters who existin these roles without any
explanation.
It's just Tanner and Tanner'sthe CEO, and take a bit
literally.
You open it from the beginningand Tanner's the CEO and like.
(13:26):
Take it Like, literally.
Like.
You open it from the beginningand Tanner's the CEO and what
Like and don't ask.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Tanner was just born in a little suit with a little
briefcase.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Tanner was born in a suit and a briefcase and it's
unambiguous.
There's this notion of, andalso, like when we're writing
heroes, we have to turn theseheroes into exceptional Black
men, into exceptional Latino men, into exceptional men, because
only the special, only theexceptional is actually worthy
(13:59):
of that happiness and joy andworthy of the heroine, I think,
that person who is entitled tounambiguous success.
If you are a character of color, it has to be really, really
straightforward that you areworthy of that money and that
success.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Yeah, and even part of it too, and this is something
that I've thought about in afew romances that I've read that
are written not by Black women,that there's this implication,
almost, that for a Black personto reach that level, there
almost has to be a They've hadto part with those harmful
beliefs or harmful culturalthings that were holding him,
(14:50):
her back.
That part, you know, and that isa dangerous, dangerous
narrative, because it reallydoes imply that for us to see
success, for us to be seen andtaken in and absorbed as success
(15:11):
, like we have to like leavebehind the roots.
Right, which is interesting andalso kind of comes into part of
like what, what you were sayingbefore in terms of like, this
idea that, like, you have tojustify and there's no need,
(15:34):
there's no staying for a whiteperson to be a legacy person,
right, like, affirmative actionis a like, not a feature.
Right, like you got in becauseyou, you know you were like the
token, the percentage theyneeded to include.
It has nothing to do with yourskill, your talent, but being
legacy like your grandpappy'slast name is on a couple of the
(15:57):
buildings on the campus has nobearing on the fact of whether
you deserve to be there or not.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
That part.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
And it's like unquestioned, like sure, my dad
owns this company, but I knowhow to run it.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Yeah, it's a given.
Yeah, because I am his son.
My blood proves that I'm worthyof this.
Yeah, I mean, honestly speaking, of blood.
I mean you all may not knowthis because I write
contemporary romance but I'mactually a Regency girlie.
I cut my teeth in the Regencyand one of the things that I
(16:37):
always find unspoken about howRegency heroes are incredibly
wealthy and like everyone's aDuke, but we've already talked
about that Everyone's a Duke,but like they're all incredibly
wealthy, but how, how have theygotten their money?
How have they become incrediblywealthy?
If a Regency novel mentions theCaribbean or the colonies, it's
(17:02):
always this way that we canpush aside.
We can, particularly in Regency.
It's great for this, it's greatfor escape, because all of the
terrible things, all of theracism, all of the ill-begotten
gains are happening off page.
They're happening in this way,that's not in front of your face
(17:23):
, which is why it's very hardfor like kind of regency or
gilded age stuff to take off inthe United States.
But it's off the page.
And there are all these wayswhere these heroes are allowed
to be unambiguously wealthy andunquestioned wealth, and it
never comes up how they gotmoney.
(17:43):
But I can guarantee you it'soff of sugar, it's off of other
kind of it's cotton right, Likeatrocities, like money that
comes from literal atrocitiesand it's never alluded to.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
It's like you know he went like in his little room,
Springa.
He went out there for a year.
He came back, had all thismoney and nobody questions.
Nobody questions why invictorian romances there are all
these wealthy american heroineswho have all this money, who
(18:22):
are coming to the UK to marrymen with titles who are now
broke.
Why?
Because they no longer haveslave money.
They don't have free labor inthe colonies.
But guess who has labor inAmerica?
The dads of the heiresses.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Come on, come on, come on.
And yet, like Black wealth isseen as a historical right,
inconceivable, needing to bejustified.
When I mean Black wealth,empires have like risen and
fallen in the United States.
I mean hair care, you name it.
There are all sorts ofparticularly interesting pockets
(19:03):
in the Northeast of incredibleblack wealth, and yet that's
going to need some untangling.
You're going to have to explainyourself, sir.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
And a lot of ingenuity, but also like a lot
of like secondary economy money,like people that did like deal
in illegal things because thatwas the only way that they could
have some upward socialmobility.
And yet we like all thosestories are not like anything
(19:35):
anybody's interested.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
We are very interested in glorifying the Al
Capones right, so yeah, come onwith the morally gray hero of
color in the period piece, likeyou.
You have me thinking now likewhere, where is our like?
Where is our like bootleggingblack hero you know well.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
You have movies like harlem knights right, where um
you have men who are Black menin mafia doing illicit things.
But it's a comedy.
They have to be defamed.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
You know, not real danger.
You're not really in danger,folks.
Nothing to see here.
You're fine, let's have a laugh.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
And then you go to movies like Goodfellas, where
you have brutal men.
Yeah, and it's cultural.
It's a cultural like, it'sglamorized and it's things to
aspire to and emulate, like RayLiotta's character is someone to
emulate and admire A brutalkiller.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
How many if you grew up in the same time I grew up.
How many boys copied the like.
Oh my gosh, I can't believe I'mforgetting now Scarface, oh,
tony Montana, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like they literally copiedeverything he said over and over
(21:06):
all the time, like any middleschool boy was just screaming
out every single one of hislines.
It was absolutely the glamour.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
And I and I always think about Tony Montana,
specifically because same I grewup in the 90s, I am a huge fan
of the Godfather.
Actually I love those movies,trivia.
My mom was an extra inGodfather Part II but because it
was filmed in the DR, it wasfilmed at the American Public.
I'm so cute.
But I think a lot about TonyMontana, specifically because
(21:35):
Tony Montana, had he looked,like a Tony Montana would
actually look, had they actuallycasted a black Cuban, for
example.
I wonder if it would have beenthe cultural phenomenon that it
was and specifically that waveof immigration which was like
the Marielitos, which were menthat were literally like Fidel
(21:59):
Castro, opened the prisons andso, like that wave of immigrants
had a lot of Black Cubans.
I wonder if, if it would havebeen made through the lens of
someone who understood thatspecific wave of like the Cuban
(22:21):
diaspora and who would have castan actual Cuban man, would it
have been the success that itwas?
And Tony, who had, for example,I mean like a Latin man wanting
to have a blonde, blue-eyedwoman tracks as part of his
(22:44):
legitimacy as a kingpin, as abigwig.
But again, tony Montana is aninteresting character to me and
again, this is how we get to beportrayed Like, not even by an
actor who's an actual Latinperson.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Yeah, so Was Tony an alcohol.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Was Tony an alcohol?
Yeah, I mean toxic masculinity.
Let's get into it.
Well, white heroes can oftendisplay aggressive dominant
traits and still be hot.
Honestly, their aggressivenessis a feature, not a bug.
Males of color displaying thesame traits can be quickly
(23:30):
labeled as threatening ordangerous and scary.
Due to racial biases,aggression in Black men is seen
as terrifying and in white menis seen as appealing.
Like choke me, like you areseven feet tall, like the idea
that a strange seven foot tallBlack man is like stalking you.
(23:53):
Yeah yes yes, would it get thetraction that it gets in romance
if it when it's a white hero?
Speaker 2 (24:05):
you know what I'm saying yeah, yeah, just imagine
just chanting.
You know, break my back at a,you know, at like in a urban
place where someone's likeplaying a street street ball
game.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
You know, crack my back Like no, you know, I have
never I have cracked my back toa seven foot tall basketball
player, point guard or a youknow a defense linesman in a
football game.
I guess hits different.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
It really does.
I want us to go on animagination journey.
Okay, when?
Speaker 1 (24:42):
I rose with color.
Glass is fine.
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Let's close our eyes.
Now imagine a hero who buys theheroin from her father, takes
her against her will maybe,locks her up in a room, maybe
feeds her some you know, creamcorn under the door, okay
Coerces her into sex, gets offon her.
Fear is a criminal, right.
(25:06):
When he's not with her, liketrying to, you know, make her
come.
He is killing.
He makes his money from illegalthings drugs, gambling,
prostitution.
He probably is a pimp or hasprostitutes or there are women
around him that just can'tsatisfy him anymore because he's
thinking of them, tenderonilocked in his basement, okay.
(25:27):
And he kills his adversariesruthlessly.
And I ask you, when you thoughtof this person in your
imagination, was he a Black hero?
Speaker 1 (25:38):
can he be a Black hero?
Like honestly can he be?
And then and again, like I wantto stress that I have no, like
I think dark romance satisfies aparticular id.
I think I understand thereasons why it's intriguing, why
it it's appealing, why it'scompelling, but what my question
(25:58):
is, the whiteness of it all, iswhat I'm asking.
And who gets to be that kind ofhero?
Who?
gets to be that kind of hero andI mean you see it right, like
like mayans and sons of anarchyis a perfect example, because
(26:19):
mayans I mean sons of anarchycame first but it was an a very
violent motorcycle club, didevery kind of crime you can
imagine there were and womenwere treated horribly and that
was the.
You know, the leader, jackson,was this gorgeous white, blonde
(26:40):
man and that that show prettymuch launched a sub-genre of of
romance, the motorcycle clubromance, golden era, and which
continues today to be a verypopular subgenre which you know
has a lot of questionable heroes.
(27:02):
Um, came from that show, fromthe sons of anarchy.
My hands is a motorcycle clubwith all Latin men and it is
just as ruthless, it is just asviolent.
It is not as popular withaudiences as Sons of Anarchy was
(27:23):
and I don't see, I mean I willsay this there are Latina
authors writing Marie Maravilla,jade Hernandez, santana, knox,
amy Oliveira, are all writingmotorcycle club syndicate
romance, but they're not nearlyas popular as the motorcycle
(27:47):
club romances that are with,like all white members.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
White members, who are also probably given a range
and depth of emotionalexperience.
This is another thing.
This is another thing that yourman can do.
Okay, this is a big one.
For me, black characters can'tget too multifaceted.
This is a big one and this isone that I see often with Black
(28:15):
readers and reviewers, where,when you give a character
incredible amounts of emotionaldepth or like white characters,
for example, are allowed thisfull range of emotions,
vulnerability, anger.
But male characters I'm usingthis honestly, mostly from the
Black experience they're oftenpigeonholed into being
(28:38):
perpetually stoic or even overlyemotional and when they run
this range of having multipletypes of experiences, that is
often seen as not Black enough.
And I feel like there are theseways where we do this to
ourselves, sometimes to protectour own culture in a way that we
(28:59):
understand that Black cultureis often siphoned off.
People dip their little strawinto Black culture and have
these ostensibly whitecharacters saying or doing these
Black things to add comedy.
So I understand the need tobuild walls and close ranks
around what Blackness is, butoftentimes what that also does
(29:21):
is when you are writing thischaracter, building this
character who is operatingsometimes outside of those walls
, then that character getspanned for this isn't Black
enough, or this isn't enough,like something's not hitting
black enough, or this is thisisn't enough, like something's
not hitting um, this characterdidn't ring true to me and those
are also wrapped up in these umideas of what blackness is and
(29:41):
that's harmful.
That's harmful as well.
So I mean often, oftentimes thisreads as misogynoir.
This is like this fancy wordthat is.
Honestly, it is a combinationof misogyny and anti-Blackness
and what that does is forcethese Black men into one having
(30:03):
extremely flat experiences andhaving extremely entangled and
non-complex relationships withBlack women.
And I think that is one of theproblems that I find myself like
writing sometimes into andtrying to write out of, of
(30:24):
writing these characters who canhave these kind of loving and
complex relationships withpeople around them and can think
within and without theseboundaries that we have put up,
and also like people outside inthe mainstream have also decided
this is Blackness and this isnot Blackness, right?
Like a Black person in a metalband, right?
Or a Black person who owns abakery and is queer, or you know
(30:50):
like.
There are all of theseexperiences where I think
there's room and and a lack ofpossibility for black male
heroes in a way that white here,that white heroes, have
incredible amounts ofpossibility for us right, and I
mean it's and and what um?
Speaker 1 (31:18):
and, like readers, really being able to imagine us
yeah beyond what we've allowedto be for so long in fiction and
in the media.
Right, and I and I think that'sthe work for us I am not
suggesting that anybody, likeyou know, there's plenty of
(31:42):
Black authors, indigenousauthors, authors who are people
of color, latinx authors thatare writing these stories.
But what we need is, likewithin our communities and also
in the wider reading world, forpeople to be able to just like,
give themselves permission toimagine us beyond what we have
(32:08):
been.
And there are, like ChristinaForrest, the partner, no, the
neighbor.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
The neighbor favor and the partner the neighbor
favor I haven't read the partnerplot, but the neighbor favor is
like a great cinnamon roll herocinnamon roll hero, who she's
also like, making this veryinteresting point about the, the
rigors of black excellence andthe way that it can, you know,
kind of force you into this wayof seeing yourself.
(32:37):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean, theNeighborhood is a great example.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Natalie Kanya, a dish best served hot, has got
everything that you want in aromance.
It's got a veteran single dadhero who's really grappling with
being softer yeah, with being aman that is able to feel his
feelings, and a heroine who has,like, a history like, who has
(33:05):
to be hard because of herupbringing and so like they find
softness in each other and likereally complex stories.
And so I think it's that pieceof readers being able to give
those stories a chance andreally being able to not come to
our stories of like this is myexpectation of what a story with
(33:28):
, like a black Puerto Rican manand like, and like you know, a
Latina heroine or whatever,should have.
Yeah, yeah.
And also the other piece ofthat I wanted, or we wanted, to
kind of ponder is we can't like,yeah, like we can't like what
(33:51):
people of color like, right,like those, yeah, like we are,
like we're in this, likestereotyping and like toxic
renditions of who we are andreductive renderings of who we
are have put us in this reallytough spot where we feel like if
(34:13):
we talk about how much we loveplantains, we're pandering.
Yep, right, so, so.
So then you can't write a blackman who loves some himself,
some watermelon in the summeryou can't do it.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
You literally can't do it.
Everyone's gonna roll theireyes.
Oh, my black guy lovingwatermelon.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Oh, we're doing this yes, like you can't write a.
A latin man who has had aproblem with cheating, and and
or or like the, the mysticalspiritual asian hero.
Yeah, because those things in,in, in, like the under the white
lens, have been madecaricatures.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
They are.
They're cultural shorthandsthat everyone is, like
incredibly familiar with, and soyou want to make, turn your
character away from that right,in a way to say, like we are not
a caricature, we are not amonolith right, but what it does
is like rob you of these sometypes of cultural experiences
(35:16):
that feel that feel likesomething that this character
would do.
I mean, if they're sitting on aporch having a family picnic
and there's no watermelon,because you know you're making a
point, congratulations Right.
But like was that true to thatcharacter?
Making a point, congratulationsright.
But like was that true to thatcharacter?
And how much are we moving ourcharacters to manage and and
(35:38):
hide away from, like the youknow, terrors sometimes of the
white gays and and is that stillart, you know?
Speaker 1 (35:45):
yeah, I mean, I think it's that piece of being able
to tolerate the idea of peoplewho are like what is a
traditional black person like ablack girl like do we all love
Beyonce?
most of us do, yes, but we alsolike some of us also like Taylor
(36:07):
Swift, and so like the piece ofit is that like like one of my
favorite non-traditional blackgirls is one named Yan, who is
the sister of Nora, the heroinefrom Sex Life and Sensibility.
And Yan is giving Solange, butSolange with the pixie cut
(36:31):
sometimes.
Solange in, but Solange withthe pixie cut sometimes.
Okay, solange in the elevator,she's giving Erykah Badu that
Lisa Bonet, like spiritual, likemy vibe, brings the boys to the
yard.
They want to get up in thisyoni.
They want to know what'shappening under this caftan.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Absolutely A crocheted caftan.
Absolutely, that's what she'swearing.
I love that you bring up Yan,because she is, to me, this
representation of she'sabsolutely a Black woman just by
virtue of the way that she'sgrown up and the way that she
experiences life and the lens bywhich she sees life.
(37:20):
But she's also a Shakespearescholar, she's a very bad expert
on mushrooms, she's all ofthese really complex and
complicated things.
She's a tarot reader and she'sbuilding her own experience and
stepping outside of the boundsof what a lot of people would
(37:43):
imagine is the place for Blackwomen and that's.
Those are the types of womenthat I like to write that are
grounded in who they are andwhat their experience is and
their lens is their lens, butare also pushing beyond what
they know and pushing outside ofthat.
Another great example of thatto me is Regina Black's Rachel
(38:07):
in the Art of Scandal, who issomething that we don't see a
lot is this black trophy wifethat she is just bought and sold
to look pretty and be great forcampaigns.
You know, for this progressive,for this progressive politician
, and she is bought to be.
You know how.
You mentioned Tony Montana,montana, and you know the kind
(38:30):
of blonde haired, blue eyed wayto represent status Right and
like, imagine, like putting thisblack woman as a representation
, one of your progressivepolitics and your status as this
type of of man.
I mean, it's saying somethingdifferent about what status
means and I just, and I love, Ilove a messy, trophy wife is a
black woman.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
And she is messy.
It was one of the things that Ireally appreciated about her
character, even though, becauseI am so used to reading about
black women that have it alltogether and and and like,
understand their situationclearly and know where they have
to get to and have noopportunity to be messy, to be
flawed to, to flail Right, likethat.
(39:13):
That like to flail right, likethat, to me, was a great example
of like this is someone thathas to grow through the story
and doesn't start out knowingeven who she is anymore.
I think Talia Hibbert writesthat kind of heroine.
Talia Hibbert really writesheroines that just are Black.
(39:33):
That's the body they're in andtheir messiness and their
insecurities and all of thatstuff that comes out of just
being a woman in the world isthe story and the story is not.
I'm Black and this is what I'mdoing.
I think there's just a lot oflike, a lot of authors doing
(39:56):
that kind of work and and it isimportant because it really is
expanding what black culture canbe or the black experience can
be um in romance.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
I mean, uh, even outside of books and media, like
one of my favorite heroines isfrom Abbott Elementary Right.
She is quintessential, she isblack Right and in the way, in
her experience and the way thatshe's grown up, and I mean even
in the neighborhood that she isteaching, right, but she is also
(40:34):
interestingly out of step in alot of really like important
cultural ways that people wouldimagine.
This is Blackness Right andit's her out of stepness with
with that that endears us to herto say, like she is supposed to
think this way or love thispurse, right, you know, or act
in this particular way, rightshe?
Speaker 1 (40:56):
is a nerd, she can't, she's awkward, she doesn't
really dress very well, she'snot smooth, she's not.
She doesn't know what a Telfarbag is, she doesn't know what
would be considered like blackblack woman in 2023.
(41:23):
And yet she, literally.
I mean she's from philly, likeone of the like historically
black cities in america where,like black wealth, black, the
legacy of, like black excellenceis like alive and you feel it.
And yet she really is like agirl that just likes nerdy
(41:46):
things.
And she in the nuance even inher romance, which is honestly
one of the great romanceshappening right now in
television the best.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Wilbur in like happening right now, and he is a
non-traditional Black heroright Like.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
He is also kind of nerdy.
He's not super suave, he's notbig tall guy, he's like skinny
short guy.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
And he's rigid and he's exacting and he's
persnickety and he's rigid andhe's exacting and he's
persnickety and he's a gardener.
I just like everything,everything about him, right and
and especially in.
You know, traditionally in theUnited States, like black
culture has been like at theavant-garde of cool, like what
it means to like act and be cool.
(42:31):
That's mostly aped from blackculture, like phrases like you
go, girl, which is like you knowyour grandma can say that now,
but in the nineties that wasMartin, oh my gosh Saying all
these things.
So like like taking that, whatyou see is like the avant-garde
of cool and and bringing thatback to two individuals right,
(42:56):
who are out of step with that.
But also, you know, I'm part ofthat culture as well.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
I just I love it.
Yeah, I love it too.
I'm going to leave this as abookmark for the two of us for
later.
I think we need to do anepisode of A Different World and
Living Single and how and whatthat I mean.
I think Abbott Elementary is adirect descendant from that
(43:22):
moment in time in television.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
Yes From Kyle Barker, who was my first love.
Yes, okay, kyle and Max.
Is there a better enemies tolove than them?
Speaker 1 (43:33):
There's not, ma'am, I'm sorry, all right, welcome
Mark, welcome Mark.
Lastly, we have come, I think,to what we are calling we can no
longer be delicious.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
I'm mad about it.
There's a ban on delicious skinand y'all, we didn't do it to
ourselves.
No caramel skin, no cinnamoncolor eyes my one of my favorite
songs d'angelo, when he'sdescribing this beautiful woman.
Okay, he says her skin iscaramel, with the cocoa eyes.
And you got, you saw her, didyou not see her?
(44:12):
You saw her right you did this.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
You saw her, d'angelo , my gosh, what a cultural
juggernaut.
Um, but part of it is is thatwe now have to ourselves because
of, again, like the, themistreatment of descriptions of
(44:36):
our bodies in media and infiction.
We came to this place where,like you're avoiding saying that
it's brown skin because brownskin is considered something
that is not attractive.
So we've gone to this place oflike, then, we can't be
described as something deliciouslike brown sugar, and yet in in
(44:57):
romance, you know, white heronscan still have milky skin, can
still have creamy complexions,can still have that alabaster,
glow, alabaster, and we can't becinnamon anymore, we can't be
cinnamon anymore, we can't becaramel, we can't be toffee, we
can't be delicious, deliciousbrown sugar, and it is, and it's
(45:22):
honestly a handicap to us interms of, like, our writing,
because that is part of theconvention of language in
romance, like, you have to useevocative language, you have to
use the lush descriptions, andwhat is more lush than caramel?
Speaker 2 (45:40):
oh, oh, come on, come on right.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
Yes, cinnamon sugar thighs, like you see it just you
see it just like you want tobite into it.
You know what I'm saying here's?
Speaker 2 (45:54):
the thing is and I'll just say this, a lot like I
want to write a character thatsomeone wants to bite into you
know, I want to write acharacter that you you try to
look for a napkin to dab thecorners of your mouth like that
is the, that is the heroine I'mtrying to write.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
That's the mission and a man that sees it thinks to
himself my god, she looks likeperfect, perfect cake and I want
to take a bite out of her assbecause it looks so delicious it
is okay, even when you saidthat I just bit my knuckles
(46:29):
because, yes, you want him tosay I want to take a bite of
that cake yes, and I think partis that we and this is part of
like the, the landscape, wenavigate right where we are
because so much of the narrativeof how our black characters,
latin characters, asiancharacters have been, you know,
(46:50):
like and like.
We could talk for days aboutlike, objectification and like
over sexual sexualization ofblack men.
Right, like, like, okay, now wecan't say that black men have
big dicks.
Baby, they have them.
Why can't you say it?
Why can't I see it?
Okay, you can't he's a show,and we should say it, we should
(47:14):
speak on that yeah, we shouldspeak on that.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
But also just personally, this is just a
little aside romance conventionsI know people want like you
know, hey, let's all think aboutlike different sizes, but I
mean I don't know if this isgoing in, but like, look, look
like I'm not writing a hero witha tiny little thing that they
(47:38):
got to work through, you know,and that's like you know.
I just I can't do it Likeromance, can do it and say, you
know, make it huge or get out ofhere.
Speaker 1 (47:49):
Like you can't, I'm sorry, I mean, but because we've
gotten into this place where,like you know, and the Mandingo
trope is a problem OK, it is aproblem, it is true and real
that a lot of white people were,you know, fascinated and
fetishized black men's penises,but then that means that we no
(48:11):
longer have the ability to talkabout a big dick, yeah, and so
again, I think we just have torethink where these tropes come
from and where like and the harmwas done.
But that doesn't mean that if Ihave a hero who is a particular
(48:32):
type of man and has aparticular type of physical
attributes, we can't say it andwe can't name it.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
Right.
Speaker 1 (48:39):
And so I think that, like, and then you have all
these you know white heroes thatcan have the size of a like you
know, of a, of a bat, Like theycan go home run.
And yet you know like we have towatch our words on how we
describe the bodies of Black menbecause they've been
(49:01):
objectified.
But then there's a differencebetween objectification and
appreciation.
Right, and it's all.
It has to do with gaze.
And it has to do with gaze,language, language and how you
see that character.
It has to do with gaze,language, language and how you
see that character.
If you see that character asjust like a vessel to like
pleasure, a white woman, thenyeah, that's a problem.
But if you are seeing this as aliteral, like God, he is
(49:25):
beautiful.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
That brown skin is popping, those muscles are
giving that hair is just rightand on point, those lips.
Baby are everything and you seehim as a beautiful man he is.
Speaker 1 (49:42):
Go ahead and describe that dick in detail.
Come on baby.
Come on baby.
Like I need to know how itlooks.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
Tell me about the veins.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
I want detail things about our beauty and the men in
our communities that only we cantruly like appreciate in our
culture and like all of it andlike just give them everything
they can and should have,because they are heroes.
They are romance heroes.
(50:29):
Yeah, they're hot as fuck.
They can move those hips, baby,like they were oiled from the
womb, okay come on, baby andthey, they're sexy, they're
gorgeous and and I think they,they should be allowed to be any
kind of man that that, they,they, they are in our story, in
(50:54):
the narrative that we have inour head, and like they deserve
to be the romance hero just asthey are.
Like we don't have to havethese qualifications of what a
Black man has to be or do to getto be a romance hero, just like
we don't do it for white men.
Speaker 2 (51:09):
Oh, I love it.
I love it.
I think that's all for us today.
Folks, we gotta head out ofhere.
There's some new drama ontiktok and we have to check it
out.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
Yes, we need to head out and, um, I'm gonna have to
go and read Alexandra House'sthem boys series, like just
right now, because thatconversation about penises just
like has me like thinking aboutthem and I have to go revisit
that series.
Speaker 2 (51:37):
Join us in two weeks as we unfasten the laces of
another pop culture phenomenon,and connect with us on Instagram
at UnboundPod, and share withus a story of a BIPOC hero that
you haven't seen and that youwish there was.
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