Episode 3: The BJ Episode with Special Guest Beverly Jenkins

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, folks.
Today is the day Unbound theBeverly Jenkins edition or the
BJ edition.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
Oh, I just got a call from HR.
Turns out we cannot say thatthis is not the BJ edition.

Speaker 1 (00:13):
Right, right, sorry, sorry, sorry.
Welcome to Unbound, the podcastthat explores the intersection
of pop culture and the steamyworld of romance literature.
Join us as we celebrate thevoices and stories often left in
the shadows and unravel thethreads of joy, passion and
heartache that keep us allcoming back to the page and the

(00:37):
screen.
Hey y'all, welcome to Unbound.
In our how the West Was Wonseries, we're examining the West
and romance.
I'm Madera Najera.
I write romance novels with hotand horny Latin people.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
And I'm Nikki Payne, and I write steamy romance based
on the books you were forced toread in high school.
And today we are riding sidesaddle with none other than Miss
Bell, beverly Jenkins.
We're talking about two ofJenkins' most iconic works,
topaz and Forbidden.
Set against the wild and steamybackdrop of historical Nevada
and the bustling life ofVirginia City, aka country

(01:15):
Wakanda.
More on this later.
These stories mix romance withjustice, identity and the quest
for just a damn place to pee onthe trail.

Speaker 1 (01:26):
What was?

Speaker 2 (01:27):
that again.
Okay, here's my theory.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
I'm convinced these people were peeing on themselves
on the trail.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
Adriana, Okay, you're not wrong, it's just too long.
How are you going to stop allthose wagons, all those oxen?
I don't know who drives trails,oxen.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
You can't stop a bunch of oxen to pee, the oxen
won't be stopped.
So let's settle up and startthis journey with Act One, where
we set the scene in Jenkins'vividly drawn world.
From the bustling streets ofChicago to the dusty roads
leading to Oklahoma, jenkins'characters trek a journey to
black safety, each with apurpose and a story that demands

(02:05):
to be told.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
I have a theory for the Jenkinsverse, and it's
Wakanda, but with boots andspurs, tell me more please.
Okay, hear me out.
Okay, let's talk about it.
So this may not be connected,but just let me cook, okay.

(02:26):
Loitering laws they have a longand contentious history in the
United States.
So when you loiter, you're likehanging out in places that you
shouldn't be, and loitering lawsin the US date back to an era
following the Civil War.
This is called Reconstruction.
So during Reconstruction, manysouthern states enacted black
codesodes laws that restrictedthe freedoms of newly freed

(02:47):
African Americans.
Loitering laws were part ofthese codes.
They were ostensibly designedto maintain public order, but
were actually used to controland limit the movement of Black
folk.
These laws made it illegal forindividuals to appear in public
places without a clear purpose,and police could use these laws
to harass, wrangle up and arrestpeople who are just simply

(03:08):
gathering publicly.

Speaker 1 (03:10):
It's like illegal divide so in a reverie jenkins
book where, for instance, theheroine and forbidden
immediately joins a group ofblack folks who are organizing
to further the cause of the race.
Um, even pushing Black men torun for office, she is
subverting these whitesupremacist laws.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
Exactly.
These laws, particularly likethe Lord and Cause, were vague,
broadly interpreted and used astools for social control, to
shape public space while alsoreinforcing racial
discrimination and segregation.
So when Jenkins crafts herVirginia City or Oklahoma, they
represent a place for the Blackbody to be at rest or even fall

(03:52):
in love.

Speaker 1 (03:54):
All right, let's get into it.
When you think of Westerns, youmight imagine dusty towns,
saloons, lone cowboys, somechaps, some spurs.
But Jenkins gives us all thatand more.
Her characters are activelybuilding the worlds they want to
live in, like Dixon Wildhorse,the hero from Topaz, whose

(04:15):
authority as a marshalchallenges the traditional white
narratives of law enforcement,or Kate Love, who is a truth
teller, sometimes at the cost ofher own safety.

Speaker 2 (04:25):
Just to set the scene for you, we're going to recap
Topaz and Forbidden quickly.
First, let's start with Topaz.
It starts with Kate Love.
She's an ambitious reporter onthe trail of a swindler who's
been preying on elderly Blacks.
But when her investigationleads her into danger, she is
snatched by Dick's Wild Horse.
Come on with the name sis ABlack Seminole marshal from

(04:45):
Oklahoma's Native Americancountry.
Kate has no choice but to fleewith this dark and daring knight
her father has sent to rescueher, Despite those warm,
simmering fires that Dix'sbronze-muscled embrace ignites.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
Um, you had me at bronze-muscled embrace.
Yeah, yeah, so she's determinedto hold on to her independence.
Um, you had me at bronze muscleembrace, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:06):
So she's determined to hold on to her independence,
and she challenges him at everyturn.
Yet even as their battle ofwills intensifies, the heat of
their passion blazes withunmatched fury.
Ooh, ooh Not that back copy Awildfire of love that can only
be answered by the sweet ecstasyof surrender.
Okay, ms Beth, are you notentertained?

(05:28):
Are you not entertained?
Are you not entertained?
Okay, next forbidden RyanFontaine I just love this name
Is building the successful lifehe's always dreamed of, one that
depends upon him passing forwhite.
But for the first time in years,he wishes he could step out

(05:48):
from behind that facade.
The reason Edie Carmichael, theyoung woman he rescued in the
desert.
Outspoken, defiant, beautifulEdie tempts Ryan in ways that
could cost him everything, andthe price seems worth paying.
Eddie owes her life to Ryan,but she won't risk her heart for
him.
As soon as she's saved enoughmoney from her cooking, she'll

(06:08):
leave this Nevada town and moveto California.
No matter how handsome he is,no matter how fiery the heat
between them, ryan will never behers.
Giving in for just one nightmight quench this longing, or it
might ignite an affair asreckless and irresistible as it
is forbidden.
What a time to be the states.

Speaker 1 (06:30):
What a time.
The states Watch the masterwork.
Okay, all right, let's get intoit.
Jenkins West is a stage fortransformation.
Let's talk of Edie, for example.
Edie leaves her life inColorado which, by the way, if
you want to know where Blackpeople were thriving in the 19th
century, please read all ofBeverly Jenkins' oeuvre and she

(06:53):
was headed to San Francisco andends up trusting the wrong
person, gets robbed and left fordead in the desert.
What a setup.
And then it's the perfectallegory of going into the West,
literally like you aredepending on who you trust, and
then the West strips you bare,confronting you with who you

(07:14):
really are.
There is a very specific type ofperson that can make it in this
kind of environment.
Edie Carmichael, our heroine,is on her Princess Tiana shit.
Virginia City wasn't her dreamdream.
It was a flyover or rollovercity, a dot on the map, but
because edie is eating, shetransforms the promise of that

(07:34):
place into a future.
And of course, let's talk aboutryan fontaine, my number one
book boyfriend, a black man whohas been safely living as a
white man with the belief thatbeing white ultimately is a way
to help the black people in hiscommunity.
But Edie and this place thereand allows him to fully step up

(07:56):
into his true self.

Speaker 2 (07:58):
I hear that.
I hear that so, like Virginia,city is a place that allows both
of them to actually step intotheir true self.
But this trail is definitelytesting Kate and Topaz.
So, like we said again, topazstarts in the big city with a
fake marriage, a swindle inChicago.
The setup is so good it couldhave stayed in Chicago.

(08:19):
He drags her from the wedding.
There's a short stay in abrothel, for some reason, and
Kate is from the city.
There's a short stay in abrothel for some reason and Kate
is was from the city and she'salways seeking truth.
But she was tough and like.
She knew that about herself.
But there's a sense of likebeing tested physically Right.
The trail made Kate see what shewas truly made of.
In all those instances whereshe felt like she couldn't go

(08:42):
another day.
She thought about those womenon the trail.
She thought about what she andDixon had to do and she found
more community on that trailwith the women that she had in
Chicago.
And that's what I love aboutthe West.
And what I love particularlyabout what Beverly Jenkins is
doing with the West is that thesetting itself is a character

(09:03):
forming device and it forcesthese characters to evolve into
place.
Love that about that work.
So this act sets our stage.
Y'all literally Stay with us aswe ride deeper.

Speaker 1 (09:16):
Not riding deeper.

Speaker 2 (09:18):
I meant into the heart of Jenkins, reimagined
West.
Why is everything sexy?

Speaker 1 (09:22):
This is Unbound, and we're just getting started.
Keep your hats on.
Act two is coming up next.

Speaker 2 (09:32):
Welcome back to Unbound.
In act one, we set the stagewith Beverly Jenkins' vivid
settings, from the bustlingenergy of Chicago to the untamed
promise of Oklahoma andVirginia City.
Now, in act two, we're divingdeep into the hearts and souls
of Jenkins' protagonists.

Speaker 1 (09:47):
All right, so let's get a little bit further into
Dixon Wildhorse, a BlackSeminole Marshal whose presence
upends the traditional portrayalof lawmen in Western genres.
Dixon is a protector of thepeace.
He's a guardian of justice,especially for the most
vulnerable, and his name is Dix,which you know does a lot of

(10:13):
heavy lifting.
His strength isn't just in hisphysical power, but it is in his
moral resilience and hisrefusal to conform to the
oppressive norms of his time.
For Dixon, it's about embodyingauthority without losing his
essence.
The way that Beverly Jenkinsdescribes what seeing dicks
naked does for Kate should bestudied.
I mean, I had to really thinkabout.

(10:36):
Other times I'd read adark-skinned Black man described
with such sultriness and suchelectricity Like he truly is the
embodiment of Black beauty.
The way that Kate thinks abouthis body, how he looks, how his
skin glows, glistens, it's likeshe's thinking about it like a

(10:57):
perfect piece of art, and thatin and of itself is part of what
Beverly Jenkins does in termsof upending themes and beauty
standards, even in romance.

Speaker 2 (11:14):
You know what I'm thinking about, right, that
painting that's in everybody'sauntie's house, that's maybe in
her bedroom, and it's like theguy kneeling at the woman's feet
.
And it's like this black body,or the sexy one that she liked
on Facebook and sent to you.
That that photo.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
That's him.
That's Nixon, not Nixon that'shim.
That's Dixon yeah, oh.

Speaker 2 (11:37):
And then there's Ron Fontaine, or Pretty Ricky's what
they call him, a man livingbetween two worlds.
I imagine this man looking likeChico DeBarge, years old.
He is everybody's 1980slight-skinned dream.
But to the outside world, ryanis a respected figure in a
predominantly white society.
But beneath that facade is atruth that only he knows, and

(12:01):
his journey is actually aboutsurvival and the quest for
authenticity.
So can I say this?
This is can I just say it?
Say it Passing's got a bad rap.
Okay, it's got a bad rap.
Okay.
We've all seen Imitation of Life.
I cried, you cried.
It was a terrible movie.
But in a world where yourhumanity, your quality of life,

(12:25):
your freedom is determined bysomething so arbitrary as the
looseness of your curl patternor the cut of your nose, how
many of us would slip and gointo the front of a store or
make such similar choices if wehad the opportunity to suddenly
be treated like a human, whowouldn't jump to take it?

(12:45):
I don't know.
I think we should be easy onthose folks who chose humanity.
It's a hard decision, but thetimes were terrible and the
stakes were so high.
And that's what I love aboutRyan's story is that he
challenges us to consider whatit actually means to live a lie

(13:08):
in pursuit of peace, and whethertrue power can ever come from
denial of self.

Speaker 1 (13:13):
And craft-wise, because this is a romance novel.
Giving him the choice to passand giving us the context and
the stakes that were there forhim really does make an
important difference in terms ofhis arc.
Ryan was using his power as awhite man to do things for his
community, so Beverly Jenkinsreally does a masterful job of

(13:37):
showing the tremendous stakes ofpassing at a time like
Reconstruction, when having awhite man of influence on our
side could have made a world ofdifference.
And that's the choice Ryan isfaced with for Edie.

Speaker 2 (13:51):
It's true, tough choices.
Speaking of Edie, we cannotforget about our gulls.

Speaker 1 (13:56):
Edie Carmichael is literally what happens when you
have a dream and you are willingto see it through, no matter
how it looks.
Hashtag grow where you'replanted.
Her journey west is fraughtwith dangers, but her resolve
never wavers.
Edie's not looking for a heroto save her.
She's saving herself andforging her path to independence

(14:17):
.
Her relationship with Brian isfilled with romantic tension.
This little queen knows that thesteamy white man is dangerous
business, but the chemistry isso palpable and every time she
calls her little queen it's likewhat is the girl supposed to do
?
A word on black and brownheroines, though.

(14:38):
It is such a difficult balanceact because we want softness,
but we are also in a world thatrequires tenaciousness and
fortitude, and that's whereJenkins heroes really excel,
because that they instinctivelywant to make the world softer
for their women.

(14:58):
They are the perfect lovers fora black woman, from Ryan
wanting her in beautiful dresses, to dicks making sure he gets a
decadent bath and everythingthat she needs once they arrive
home in oklahoma.
These men are the blueprint forthe perfect lover for a woman

(15:19):
who is living in the world in ablack body and, as I said before
, let's get into kate.

Speaker 2 (15:28):
This is kate from topaz.
She's a newspaper reporter andshe's currently.
When we meet kate, she's deepundercover.
Right, she's working on a storyabout a corrupt swindler.
But she gets real very quick.
Her cover is blown and she'sheld prisoner by rupert samuel.
There, there's never a goodRupert.
Just, I don't know how you canmake Rupert sound like a hero.

(15:48):
What I love about Kate is thatshe's not going to just lay down
and let the West consume herSee our earlier theory about the
West being a vagina.
She's going to get all in there, right, massage change and
ultimately become a force thatreshapes it.
For example, when they'reriding in that wagon, there's a
wagon full of women.

(16:08):
Um, that they are taking tosafety when those women decide
not to give up any coochie untilthings start looking better for
them, so until they startgetting their rights.
This is kate and the womenshaping the West and defining
how they want to be in thisworld, even as they are allowing
themselves to be reinvented.

(16:29):
It is Renaissance, but alsothey are renaissancing.
Ok, not that now, amber.

Speaker 1 (16:34):
Not the rena rena, rena renaissance.
Ah you have to get saved.
I challenge any sentient humanbeing to sit with a straight
face when Nikki Payne says theword coochie and you're looking
at her.
Okay, I am doing.
This is hard work, folks.
So yeah, I mean, come on.

(16:59):
Jenkins characters have it allgreat courage, big dicks and the
audacity.
They navigate a landscapethat's traditionally been
hostile to their very existence.
Through these characters,jenkins reclaims peace and
autonomy, presenting a worldwhere black men and women are
not just surviving but thrivingright on, right on.

Speaker 2 (17:21):
so we're wrapping up this act, but let's remember
Jenkins' characters aren't likefighting the elements or just
the unknown.
I think what makes this storyand her stories black is that
these characters are pressingagainst the constraints of like,
of history, in a world thatwants them gone, eradicated,
particularly inpost-Reconstruction era.
And through all of that theyfind love and even a deeper

(17:44):
sense of self.
Stick with us as we ride intoAct 3.
We'll explore Jenkins' broaderimplications for our
understanding of history, raceand the enduring legacy of the
Western genre.
This is Unbound, don't gonowhere.

Speaker 1 (18:12):
y'all, y'all guess who we got, guess who we
schmoozed, guess who we bribedto talk to us today.

Speaker 2 (18:14):
The icon, the legend mother, your mother, my mother,
mother of us all, mother ofdragons.

Speaker 1 (18:24):
The one and only Beverly Jenkins is here to speak
with us today about two of herhistorical romance masterpieces
Topaz and Forbidden.
Now, before we start, we haveto give Mother a bio moment, so

(18:46):
let me just quickly read her bio.
Beverly Jenkins is a USA Todaybestselling author and nation's
premier writer ofAfrican-American historical
fiction.
According to theAfrican-American Book Club.
American Book Club, shespecializes in 19th century

(19:08):
African American life and hasover 60 published novels to date
.
She has received numerousawards, including the RWA Nora
Roberts Lifetime AchievementAward, and has been nominated
for the NAACP Image Award.
She is an institutioninimitable, our absolute

(19:31):
favorite.

Speaker 2 (19:32):
Beverly Jenkins.

Speaker 3 (19:36):
Really came from a fan letter.
Back then it was before email,and my sister I don't remember
who she was, I still got all myfan letters in the basement in a
box.
She said, miss Bev, you did,you know it must be book four.
She said you did three seriousbooks.
You did Night Song and you didVivid and you did Indigo.

(20:01):
She said, can you write acomedy?
And I was like, hmm, you know,and even when your publishers
ask you stuff, can you write.
You never say no.
So if your publisher ever asksif you can write whatever,
always say yes.
Even if you don't have nothingin the drawer, say yes.
So I was like, okay, and youknow, and I grew up at a time,

(20:29):
you know, in the 60s, wheneverything on tv was basically
black and white and everythingblack and white was a western
yeah you know John Wayne.
You know I told this story aboutmy grandfather.
I probably have seen every JohnWayne movie ever made because
he was such a big.
I don't know if he was a JohnWayne fan or if he was just a

(20:52):
Western fan, but when you wentto see my grandmother you didn't
get to control.
Well, you were the remote butyou didn't get to control the
channels.
You know you changed that tochannel seven.
You know you were the remoteand you didn't get to pick.
So when we wanted to stay uplate we went to visit her

(21:12):
because she didn't live too farfrom us, me and my two, the two
sisters we're stair steps.
There's seven of us in 13 years.
So it's me and my two sistersare the top three.
So when we would see Grandma youknow we want to stay up late
you had to watch John Wayne.
So, and he would sometimes sayyou know, that's the story of a

(21:35):
black man and we would be liketell me what you mean.
Okay, the movie.
He would say that some of theincidences were based on.
You know Black historicalfigures.
That's, part of his people werefrom Texas and one in
particular, the Searchers.

(21:55):
It's about a young woman or ayoung kid.
It's been a long time.

Speaker 1 (22:02):
A young woman gets kidnapped.

Speaker 3 (22:03):
Yeah, get kidnapped.
I think it's a young woman or ayoung kid.

Speaker 1 (22:02):
It's been a long time A young woman gets kidnapped.
Yeah, get kidnapped.

Speaker 3 (22:05):
And John Wayne plays I think I don't remember plays
the person who's the scout,who's looking leading the party.
Well, that man, now come tofind out, was a black man.
You can look it up.
So I didn't know all of thisuntil later and I started doing
the research for my stuff and Iwas like, damn, my granddaddy

(22:27):
wasn't right.
Um, in one of the John Wayne ummovies, um, jim Beckworth, who
Beckworth passes named after inColorado or California, one of
them, sea States.
Um, cause you know I'm old,this is going to be my excuse

(22:54):
Big time frontier guy.
Like I said, beckwith Pass isnamed after him.
He was the scout.
He claimed to be a NativeAmerican chief.
In the John Wayne movie he wasa red-haired Irishman.
Now, you know, you look at realstuff.

(23:16):
You know this guy was a blackguy, ebony skin.
You know the whole shot.
So what Granddaddy was tellingus when I was like seven or
eight years old, when it came tobe the truth, he knew it was
the truth.
He was just like, yeah, right.
So when I did Topaz, I used allof that to sort of put the

(23:42):
story together.
And also there was a great movieback then called Westward the
Women.
It starred Marjorie Maine andDanielle Darcio or something
like him, some French girl andRobert Taylor and it was about a
bunch of mail-order rides goingwest and how the guy had tobert

(24:05):
taylor was the wagon master, Ithink, um, and he had to teach
him how to.
You know how to drive thewagons and how to take care of
the horses and all of that.
So it was one of the moviesthat you know.
We had a guy in detroit, billkennedy movies.
At one o'clock and during thesummer, when you know it was not
any school and it's high tosell outside, you stay home and
you watch bill kennedy and heshowed all these old movies.
One o'clock and during thesummer, when you know it was not
any school and it's hot as helloutside, you stay home and you

(24:26):
watch bill kennedy and he showedall these old movies.
Yeah, so that was one of themovies that he showed, you know,
all the time, and so me and mysisters are watching and we love
the movie.
So basically, um, topaz isbased on that.
Now, there was no dixon wildhorse, it was just robert taylor
.

(24:46):
Um, but the, the, the feel andthe, the theme and all of that
of the story is sort of based onthat and I don't know how well
the story holds up these days.
It's been, you know, 40 yearssince I've seen it.
Yeah, um, but yeah, what's withthe women?
So put all of that together andI'm a pantser.

(25:09):
So, organically, you know, youlet the characters and the story
sort of guide you and nextthing, we know, oh, and then you
know, the point is just a slowhand.
So you know, then you had DixonWild Horse and I'm all about
the history and I think that wasmy first deep dive into the

(25:34):
Black Seminoles too.
So you know, and I try not to,you know, beach over the head
with it and let my charactersgive them that background so
that you know, you know what'sgoing on.
But it's not an info dump.
So I gave him that BlackSeminole history so I could do

(25:54):
that history.
And Kate is sort of based onsome things with Marianne Shadd,
who was an abolitionist duringthe abolition era and she was
the first woman of color onNorth America to have a

(26:17):
newspaper.
And there's an incident withKate where she has to sign her
name as a man and that actuallyhappened with Mary Ann Shad
because she didn't think thatyou know the men of the movement
would respect her or, you know,acknowledge her power and all

(26:38):
that.
And of course when they foundout they did and I treated her
really bad.
So a lot of stuff went intothat.

Speaker 1 (26:47):
And then out came that story Her dad, I was going
to ask about her dad, becausehe's definitely one of the
comedic.

Speaker 3 (26:58):
Yeah, he's based on Ben Hodges.
Ben Hodges was a con man andthe whole incident with him
selling Dix's cows a con man andthe whole incident with him
selling Dix's cows Dix's cowsBen Hodges actually did that to
some greenhorn from EuropeBecause back then you had a lot

(27:20):
of the peerage, were coming overand buying ranches and all of
that.
And the story goes that if Bensaid it was raining, you better
get up and go out and go to thewindow and look.
And they buried him in BootHill.
They said so that a lot ofgunfighters could keep an eye on
him.
So all of this you know justfrom reading the history and

(27:46):
stuff.
None of these are in the movies, but just from reading the
history.
And I used mostly RT Burton'sRed Black and Deadly.
He is a fantastic historian,black historian.
He's a Chicago historian.
He's also a musician, greatmusician.

(28:06):
He's in Chicago Historian, he'salso a musician, great musician
.

Speaker 2 (28:18):
So I used his book and then I used William Catt's
the Black West for most of theresearch for those two that
story.
So my question is why infuse itwith real history?
This was a fantastic story evenwithout those touches.

Speaker 3 (28:32):
I couldn't have put it together without the history.
I'm all about what I calledutainment.
Nobody knew about the BlackSeminoles.
It was also my tribute to theblack newspapers of the 19th
century, of which there werehundreds that nobody knows about

(28:53):
.
So it's sort of my mission, mygospel, my good news, you know.
Just pretty Proving your greatcareer yeah and my mama too,
because I tell people she wasblack before it was fashionable.
So Tell me what that meansbefore it was fashionable.

(29:15):
My mama, okay, in the 50s andthe 60s, you know you had this
big upsurge of being black, youknow, with the civil rights
movement and all that.
But my mother knew she wasblack before then.
She knew the history.

(29:36):
Her grandfather, which would bemy great-grandfather, was Muslim
from Kentucky, it's what theycalled it.
They didn't call them Muslimsback then, they called them
Mohammedans back then.
And he had lived in Nepal.
He lived in Pakistan.
He was a regular black man, nota black Muslim, because there

(29:58):
were no black Muslims back then.
Everybody was Muslim, just likethey're supposed to be.
But he lived in Pakistan, helived in Nepal, he did his Hajj
in Medina, he did his Hajj atMecca and I remember I was in
college and Mama had his lettersand Mama was probably the only

(30:22):
you know, because you weren'tsupposed to have women in your
quarters and he lived upstairsin my grandmother's house and my
mom he would let her come upand they would, you know, talk
and stuff.
And she got his Koran after hedied and all that.
But what was I going to say, oh, she got his letters.

(30:44):
And I was in college and shesaid, well, I got Papa's letters
, we're holding Papa.
And I said, well, can I havethem?
And she said, yeah, sure, comeget them.
You know, and I'm looking for,you know, insight and you know
stuff and you know all of that,right, and they got these great
stamps on them, you know fromNepal and all that.
Every letter said send me mypension check, because when he

(31:17):
was in the States he worked forFord Motor Company.
He also worked for the railroad.
So no deep insight, just youknow send me my damn money you
know, that's it so I still havethose letters, too in my
basement somewhere.
So but yeah, that's what I meantby you know, and she, she

(31:42):
collected.
Um, do you know what the blackbook is that Toni Morrison
published in the 70s?
It's like a scrapbook ofeverything that was.
I mean, it's got old stuff,it's got patents.
My mama collected that kind ofstuff from black people and she

(32:05):
had it for a long time and thenshe came home one day and daddy
had burned it up.
Wow, because he said, hey, weneed it to stay warm.
And she was like, no, youdidn't, because, as seven kids,
you got more mouths and you gotmore bills and you got money.

(32:28):
But I wish and.
I saw it a couple times when Iwas little.
I mean, it was handbills fromshows with Billy Eckstein and
all the Harlem greats and all ofthat.
But and she always told us youknow, don't let these people

(32:52):
tell you you are not worthy.
You know, all y'all gonna growup and be somebody, you know.
And basically I mean we didn'tbe nobody but ourselves.
You know, we knew our worth andour value.
So you had this mother, who ourworth and our and our value.

Speaker 2 (33:08):
So you had this mother.
Who was this just collector?
Of the Black experience thismother who had seen the world
outside of Detroit, thisgranddaddy who told the truth
and saw the truth.

Speaker 1 (33:24):
There was no other thing for you to be but an
amazing story Archiving.

Speaker 3 (33:27):
Yeah, archive it.
So you know, and I archive it,I guess, through my stories.
I never thought about it likethat, absolutely.
Thank you, nikki, I'm here allday, I love that.
But yeah, and she would talkabout you know, and I've told
this story too before.
She would talk about going tothe Detroit Public Library

(33:47):
Because she went to Miller,which was the black high school
in Detroit, and in Detroit youcould use the library if you
were black, but you couldn'ttake the books home.
Now in the South there werelots of libraries where you
couldn't even go in if you wereblack.
So she said she'd go to thelibrary on a Saturday and she'd

(34:12):
be there for hours just sittingand reading and you had to ask
for the black books because theywere not showed them with the
regular collection.
They were behind the desk andyou had to ask for them.
So she was like okay, and andyou know, and and she read to us
, you know, until we could readfor ourselves.

(34:36):
And I told the story you know,it's her fault and I'm a, I'm a
reader and a writer, because herand daddy bought me, you know,
cloth books I'm the oldest andshe would say eat them, work,
because I would eat the books,eat the pages, and she would say
eat those words, baby, eatthose words.
So, so, yeah, um, everybody inmy family, um, were book people.

(35:02):
Yeah, and when they died, I gotgot their books.
That's how I discoveredShakespeare.
My Aunt, cecilia, my daddy'ssister, and they all were
college educated, unlike my momand them, which were in Detroit.
My dad's from Palatka, florida.
He got his degree at SavannahState.

(35:24):
But, yeah, when Cecilia died,you know this big, old, thick,
blue book, I remember it.
I'm like what the hell is this?
It was a complete volume ofShakespeare.
I was 12, you know.
So after I figured out whatthese were, who speaks like this
?
Right After I figured that out,you know, that's when I

(35:46):
discovered how much I loveShakespeare.
Do you have a favorite play?
Taming of the Shrew andMidsummer Night's Dream?
I swear somebody changed theending for Taming of the Shrew
because the ending is justfucked up.
I don't know who wrote that,but Midsummer Night's Dream will
make you laugh out loud it wasso funny.

(36:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:08):
Yeah, yeah, I love that I have a romance with the
classics as well, also at ayoung age.
I just got into.

Speaker 1 (36:20):
Jane.

Speaker 2 (36:20):
Austen and got into the Bronte sisters and I thought
that there was no betterstories to tell and I never read
those.

Speaker 3 (36:30):
Never read those, yeah, but you know they think
that.
You know we as women of coloraren't into that kind of stuff.
I don't know what they thinkwe're supposed to grow in every
reading.
But, um, we read the gamut.

Speaker 2 (36:49):
We're not a hive mentality, so uh, exactly right,
yeah I mean, honestly speaking,of like, not a hive mentality,
when we now I'm thinking aboutryan fontaine, or you know,
pretty Ricky.

Speaker 3 (37:09):
Wait till I tell Katrina that, because she's a
forbidden expert, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (37:16):
Yeah, like when we think about someone who is going
about what he thinks is a goodcause.
Using these you know ways andmeans that people would not
normally today see as good.
Like you think of books likeNella Larson or any of these
books about passing, thoseindividuals are imitation of

(37:39):
life right.
Those individuals are seen astragic right or as individuals
only bound to you know their owndeath.

Speaker 3 (37:47):
They always killed themselves or injured themselves
.
And I, you know, as an Englishmajor, when I went to class, I
wanted to turn that stereotypeon its head.
You know, I wanted to give hima mission, you know, it's like,
it's like hiding in place, youknow, yeah, and Katrina says

(38:15):
that and it, you know, it wasjust for me.
It was very, very deep for her,but then she's a professor,
she's supposed to be deep.
She said what's her name?
Um, eddie, eddie, yes, lordeddie, let ryan come home to his

(38:39):
blackness.
Yeah, and I thought that wasjust the most profound thing I
have ever heard, because youknow that was I didn't think
about it that way, but it is she.
Let him come home to hisblackness.
Um, yeah, but she was like no,no, get away from me, you know.

Speaker 1 (39:02):
so yeah yeah, I mean I of again, and that's why I've
always said that your books arelike the best American history,
because you can read thosenarratives that can be so
painful and know that there's ahappy ending that's coming, so

(39:25):
that you can like trust that youcan read about this experiences
, especially like thinking aboutme when I was, uh, learning
about american history.
Reading about thereconstruction usually is very
hard yeah because it's so.
It was such a.
It's so frustrating to read howmuch was done and how much, how

(39:46):
quickly it was all taken apart.

Speaker 3 (39:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:51):
And and those that community was so robust, right
Like like all that they weretrying to do to influence
someone, and Ryan was like anoperator in that world.
So it may it gave him thatcharacter such nobility.

Speaker 3 (40:13):
Yeah, yeah, because you know, when you read the
quote-unquote classics, you knowthere's always, like Nikki said
, that tragic mulatto.
I hated those stories.
It's like didn't anybody doanything else, but there had to

(40:37):
have been some who did.
Yeah, you know Right.

Speaker 2 (40:41):
So and my thing is like, even if it wasn't, even if
it wasn't heroic, right, Evenif somebody just decided that
I'm going to be treated like ahuman today, I'm going to walk
in the front door and get my icecream and walk away.
Right, even if there's nothingheroic in that like, just just

(41:05):
like a moment to think about howhow seductive that was.

Speaker 1 (41:09):
That's exactly the word I was thinking how
seductive the process of justbeing a human being would have
been at that time, being a humanin the world.

Speaker 2 (41:17):
Yeah, just walking right in the front and just
saying I'd like a yeah of thisgetting service and, yeah,
harnessing power and likeholding power yeah um, yeah yeah
, and I'm sure that there weretons of people who did do that,
you know, regardless of why theywere passing.

Speaker 3 (41:35):
You know, to be able to go into into a store.
You know, one of the we took a,the Madiba group.
We took a trip to um, newOrleans.
We've done New Orleans a coupletimes, three, four times, and
one of the historians said thatthe reason that the women had to
wear their chignons, thescarves on their head, because

(41:56):
the light-skinned black womenwere going into shops and being
waited on Gotcha and the storeowners did not know that they
were serving black women.
So that's when the Tinian lawsstarted being told, being
enforced, so that they couldtell the difference, so they

(42:20):
wouldn't have to serve them witha smile or, in some cases,
serve them at all.
So that's where the Tinian lawscame from.

Speaker 2 (42:30):
But, yeah, Look, I tell you, white supremacists
know the drugs.

Speaker 3 (42:37):
And one of the other historians told us about some of
the white women who had slaveshadn't been in a kitchen in you
know three generations yeah,yeah and after the war they
couldn't feed their kids becausethey know how to cook.
So a lot of the black womenmade quite a bit of money not

(43:04):
cooking for them, but teachingthem how to cook oh my gosh,
this explains so much likeraisins and potatoes and pimento
cheese.

Speaker 1 (43:14):
I mean not that I don't enjoy pimento cheese, but
you've got to really bestruggling to be like let me
just put this grated cheesetogether with some other cheese
and some some peppers no,seasoning nothing it explains so
much.
It explains so much.
Yeah, that explains.

Speaker 3 (43:34):
And that's where hot sauce came from.
Well, it's a whole differentstory, but that's the only thing
he had in his fields were thepeppers after the war and
McHenry.
But then that's how I foundrind Through a hot sauce bottle
okay, let's go back and startfrom the beginning.

Speaker 1 (43:54):
Okay, let's roll the deck.

Speaker 2 (43:56):
Now tell me what ryan has to do with.
Okay, you have a hot sauce inmy bag right now.

Speaker 1 (44:04):
Yeah, I have a bottle of Liquoristol on my desk.

Speaker 3 (44:06):
Okay, all right.
Here's the story.
A group of archaeologists wereinvestigating.
I got so many places in my mind, the city that Ryan is in,
silver City, nevada.

Speaker 1 (44:21):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (44:22):
Okay, and there had been a fire at one time there,
so they were investigating belowthe fire level to see what was
there.
Well, they found a hot saucebottle and this is documented.

(44:44):
I gave you the site in the bookat the end of the book.
Now we all know whether you thesite in the book At the end of
the book.
Now we all know, whetherstereotypes or not, if there's a
hot sauce bottle, there's someblack folks involved.
Come on sis, we know, and sureenough, there was a tavern or

(45:04):
saloon or bar owned by thisblack guy and it was the best
saloon in the city.
It had cutting edge lighting.
It had cutting edge becausethey had those gas lamps.
So cutting edge, you know airwhatever's.

(45:27):
They found imported gin Becausethey had those gas lamps.
So cutting edge, you know airwhatevers.
They found imported gin.
They found, you know justvaluable, priceless plates and
glassware and stuff.
And damn if, yeah, there was theboston saloon and when I saw it

(45:48):
I said, okay, this is whereryan is, because my ryan whiners
which is what I called him, yes, had been on me for because
what through the story came outin what 97 or 98 or whatever,
and they, they have been.
Well, whatever happened to Ryan, I don't know.
I don't know where he is.

(46:10):
I don't know where he is.
Stop asking me, them and thepeople wanting two shaft story.
I started y'all need to start asupport group.
So they had a two shaft supportgroup for a while.
So when I read that I was likethat's where Ryan is.

(46:31):
This Salone.

Speaker 2 (46:35):
I'm just imagining ancient photos of catfish with
that inexplicable piece of whitebread, you know.

Speaker 3 (46:44):
I think I still have the link in my hard drive
somewhere.
I'll have the link in my on myhard drive somewhere.
I'll have to send that to you,but but yeah, and they found out
who owned it and it was a blackman, like I said, and the best
place in the city, and then, youknow, and the white patrons

(47:05):
would not patronize it becausehe was letting black people in
there, right, so, um, butobviously it was.
It was a pretty snazzy andwell-known place and, like I
said, I found it because of ahot sauce bottle hot sauce
bottle, a hot sauce bottle,because they sent the hot sauce

(47:27):
bottle to the McHenry factory inLouisiana and they said this is
one of ours, but we don't evenhave a record for this.
This is before we startedkeeping records.
Wow, wow so.
Have you ever gone on a dig?
No, I haven't gone on a dig.
Have you ever gone on a dig?
No, I haven't gone on a dig.

Speaker 2 (47:49):
I've gone on one dig and we found nothing but weird
shards that you know.
If I found a hot sauce bottle,I would literally retire.
I'm like, well, I did it, Iknow.
I know.

Speaker 3 (48:02):
History solved.

Speaker 1 (48:03):
Yeah, yes, we've reached the beginning.

Speaker 3 (48:07):
Like this is where it all started.
This is where it all started.
This is where it all began.
Right here, the Big Bang itself.

Speaker 2 (48:14):
This is my Big Bang.

Speaker 3 (48:16):
I love it.

Speaker 1 (48:20):
We wanted to ask you too, because so much of your
work is the West right, andyou've given us so many
interesting heroines, of course,but the hero too right, and
we've talked about the Westernand talk about this, the man
from the West, the cowboy.
So we wanted to know, when youthink of a cowboy, what comes to

(48:43):
mind?

Speaker 3 (48:47):
You know, and I have to base this on I thought about
your question.
I had to base this on how Igrew up and what I saw on screen
.
I think of the men I createdbecause everybody else is white.

Speaker 1 (49:06):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (49:07):
So Dixon Wildhorse and Jackson Blake and Ryan's not
really a cowboy, but he's aWestern man.
I mean, I grew up at a timewhen there were what over 100, I
don't know if I said that 100Westerns right.
Yeah.

(49:29):
There were what over a hundred.
I don't know if I said that ahundred westerns right.
Yeah, all of them white men,except for barbara stanwick and
big valley, which is sort ofwhat the destiny series is, the
foundation for that.
But chuck connors, big six footstrapping white guy, blonde
blue eyes, was a single parentdad.
In a western they cast him asGeronimo.

(49:51):
Wow, hollywood head, no shamethat is the caucasity.

Speaker 2 (50:03):
Yeah, the caucasity of that.

Speaker 3 (50:05):
So I don't have a role model Right, except for the
guys who were real, like BassReeves, beckworth, the bronze
bookaroo in the 40s.
My mom used to talk about thatmovie the Bronze Bookaroo in the
40s.
My mom used to talk about thatmovie.

(50:30):
We had Sidney Poitier and HarryBelafonte in Buck and the
Preacher.
We had Melvin Van Peebles inMario Mario's the son, mario Van
Peebles in what was the name ofthat movie?
You know which one?
I'm talking about that one.
What was the name of that movie?
You know which one?
I'm talking about that one.
But so far as real kinds of youknow, you can count them on one

(50:53):
hand.
So when I think of cowboys Ithink about mine, who were in
places like Texas, who wereenslaved originally because, you
know, cattle raising was partof the African experience in a

(51:17):
lot of places and they wereimported specifically because of
that skill.
Yeah, a lot of the originalranchers didn't know nothing
about cows, just stealing land.
That's what it called cowboys.
You know the white guys wouldcall cow hands.
You know so.

(51:40):
So you know it's a complicatedhistory here, but you know our
roots are deep and wide andstrong, and so versatile.
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
I mean, we taught them cows, wetaught them how to grow rice,
we taught them how to plantindigo, we taught them the

(52:03):
intricacies of inoculation, yeah, and metallurgy as well, oh
yeah of inoculation yeah, youknow so.

Speaker 2 (52:08):
And metallurgy as well.

Speaker 3 (52:09):
Oh yeah, Look in New Orleans.

Speaker 2 (52:11):
Right, look in New Orleans.
Exactly Right, yeah, exactlyyeah.
This is apropos of nothing andyou don't actually have to have
a POV.
Okay, but Beyonce has a countryalbum.

Speaker 3 (52:22):
Yeah, what are your thoughts?
I put up Tame of Jesse Rose.
I said if you need a soundtrackor a book to go with the
soundtrack Cowboy Carter, here'sa book for you.
It's a rootin' tootin' blackwestern?

Speaker 1 (52:38):
Yes, it is.

Speaker 3 (52:40):
Everything is a marketing moment we're having.
We're celebrating the 25thanniversary of jesse rose at the
pajama party this year inoctober, okay, and so we're
having a, a western theme, andwe're having the jesse rose ball

(53:01):
on saturday night, so it'll beboots and gowns and boots and
hats.
And I had told her I originallytold her I said we will not be
playing.
This was before Beyonce's.
I said we will not be playingcountry music, but I think we
will be.
I think we will be playingBeyonce at the Jesse Rose Bowl.

Speaker 1 (53:20):
That's going to be amazing.

Speaker 3 (53:23):
Yeah, we're going to have a good time.
So you know, and other peopleare saying that she, you know,
doesn't know anything about shegrew up in houston exactly.
She knows what I was, you knowthey got their own culture down
there, so I was just fromhouston and rodeo culture yeah,
rodeo culture was just it.

Speaker 2 (53:38):
You know it took over the entire city.
Yeah, it was.
You could just pull up to a gasstation and someone in a horse
would be just like also stoppingto get their 7-Eleven Slurpee.
It's just, it's that type ofcity.

Speaker 1 (53:50):
Yeah, yeah, I'm not even from Houston and I know
that you, that's where artistsget started, that's where you
play your, your gigs, and at therodeo.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so,yeah, so yeah, she's doing well
she really is miss, so let'stalk about mustaches because

(54:12):
they're back in and we feel likeyou're somehow responsible for
it well, you know, I think it'sreally.

Speaker 3 (54:21):
Who was it that brought it up first online?
Oh, I don't know her real name.
Be in her, her book.
She's a librarian.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think shestarted the conversation, I
think, and then I told her youknow, growing up in the 60s, you
know you can ask your moms oryour grandmas or your aunties or

(54:42):
whatever Women my age we werein the teens and 20s you did not
trust a black man without amustache.
This is real.
If he had a hairless lip, youwere like ew.
So if you look back at thepictures and you know, in the
movies and the blackexploitation movies and all that
, everybody had a mustachebecause you did not hook up Mess

(55:07):
with a man with a naked lip.
With a naked lip.
I mean all the boys growing up,that was their I can grow a
mustache.
You know, that was their riteof passage was to be able to
grow a mustache, yeah, so yeah,men out here just trying to get
a beard.
Exactly, exactly, exactly.
Yeah, I think my trauma, tryingto get a beard, exactly.
Exactly, exactly yeah.

Speaker 1 (55:29):
I think my trauma comes from.
I mean, my dad had a mustacheand he was very proud of that
mustache.
It was a very full mustache andhe didn't have a lot of hair up
top.
That mustache was pristine,yeah.

Speaker 3 (55:41):
Yeah, I mean, and that's all the cultures, all the
cultures of color.
Yeah, you know, the men hadmustaches.

Speaker 2 (55:47):
So the thing is I just associate mustaches, like
for some reason you can't haveboth a mustache and a shirt
Literally either, or Like whenyou think of, like Tom Selleck,
like when he had that mustacheon that shirt, was that was a
deep V, baby yeah.
You could see that navel.

Speaker 3 (56:06):
Yeah, it's either or yeah, well, when you're 14 and
in the ninth grade you got yourshirt on you in school, or
polyester, like it's a verypolyester forward look right,
yeah, yeah, so I.
So I don't think I can takecredit or blame for that, but I

(56:29):
do will tell you that we did nottrust a boy or a man or anybody
in college who did not have amustache.

Speaker 2 (56:40):
Honestly, let's bring that back Like, let's just be
real suspect about dudes.
You just can't.
I'm sorry, Sarah, what are youabout?
If you had a mustache we couldtalk to you.
Let's just be real suspectabout dudes.

Speaker 3 (56:50):
You just can't know.
I'm sorry, sarah.
What are you about?
Yeah, if you had a mustache wecould talk, you know.
It's like Sade's song, maureen,you see this.
You look at it.
You think he can dance, youknow.
So you know.

Speaker 1 (57:03):
Can he?

Speaker 3 (57:04):
dance, you know so.

Speaker 1 (57:06):
I think we need to bring that filter back.
Just like mustache no mustacheas it's like just a sign of can
I trust this person?

Speaker 2 (57:15):
can I?

Speaker 3 (57:16):
trust him with my heart or anything else.
It's like we'll see.

Speaker 1 (57:23):
Stay tuned, stay tuned thank you so much for just
gifting us, blessing us withthis amazing conversation.
It's made our my sense ofsomehow.
I mean I don't know how manytimes I've read forbidden and
topaz, I mean it's many and andevery time I talk to you or hear

(57:43):
you talking about those books Ilearn something new and it
makes the books even richer forme.
So, thank you, we appreciateyou so much.

Speaker 3 (57:55):
Well, thank you for having me.
Much success with this podcastand, you know, have me back
whenever you need to laugh.
I'm always available.

Speaker 1 (58:07):
I mean if you're looking for an extra gig, if
you're not missing like we'lljust have you every time.

Speaker 3 (58:14):
People be like oh, she on again.
No, we ain't listening to them.
No, we love it.

Speaker 2 (58:18):
This is a fantastic kiki.

Speaker 3 (58:22):
But I will look forward to seeing you all in
August at Lusty Con.
Yes, I love it.

Speaker 1 (58:31):
All right, have a great evening.
Thank you so much.
Okay, all right, love you.
Love you, ms Bev.
We're back on Unbound and inthis final act we're going deep

(58:54):
into the legacy and impact ofBeverly Jenkins reimagining of
the western genre.
How does Jenkins not onlyrewrite the narrative but also
inspire us to see through a new,more inclusive lens?

Speaker 2 (59:04):
I think I want to start off talking a little bit
about her sense of community.
So through her novels, Jenkinspresents a West that's different
from the one traditionallyportrayed in mainstream media.
It's a genre that largelycelebrates rugged individualism.
You think of Clint Eastwood orJohn Wayne.
These are all people who areset out on their own.

Speaker 3 (59:27):
You can call me a dirty son of a bitch, but if you
ever call me daddy again, I'llfinish this fight.

Speaker 2 (59:33):
But Jenkins emphasizes community, collective
struggle and mutual support.
Her characters often findstrength not in isolation, not
in hiding behind a rock whileother people shoot out at them
by themselves and they likeshoot out 50 people and it's
just them but they find strengthin their connection to other

(59:53):
people.
It's not this West of LoneRangers and again these big
saloon shootouts, but there'ssuch a huge focus on community
in her novels and if you thinkabout Nevada City, the saloon
becomes a community, the wagonwomen that are on the trail.
They become community membersand masters even of their own

(01:00:15):
destiny.

Speaker 1 (01:00:16):
Okay, but also in Beverly Jenkins's books the
struggle for justice is really acentral part of the
storytelling.
Even in Topaz, anytime Dix isenforcing the law or going in to
be the person that enactsjustice, he is doing it to

(01:00:39):
protect the vulnerable.
So, just on the face of it,justice looks very different in
Jenkins West than in ourtraditional Western story,
because it really isn't aboutbringing order, law and order to
the town.
It is really about protectingthe vulnerable.

(01:01:00):
It's not about.
It's about safety, not aboutcontrol and seeking safety, as
justice really is a theme in herwork.
Jenkins' work also invites usto reflect on the concept of
Black safety and what it meansto find a haven in a world that
often feels hostile.
It's part of what we weretalking about in our initial

(01:01:20):
episode about Buck and thePreacher.
Her characters' journeyswestward are not just physical
movement but quests for placeswhere characters can express
their identities fully andfreely.

Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
Jenkins not only enriches the genre, but a lot of
the points of reference inBeverly Jenkins' book are real
history, right, and so this isAdriana, let me play devil's
advocate.
So what that they're realhistory?
So what that they're a blacklawman in black cities, right?
What does it mean for us today?

(01:02:04):
Right, we still don't have allof our rights, right, I still
can't breathe.
Why does this matter?
Why is it even important thatwe revisit these narratives?

Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
I mean for one what you just mentioned Right, I have
always said that one of mybiggest teachers of American
life, african-american life, isBeverly Jenkins.
Because I was, I was able toread about real African-American
history, knowing there would bea happy ending, and that
romance as a genre is at itsessence aspirational.

(01:02:37):
It's the genre of hope ForBlack and Brown people.
An HEA is never individualistic.
We thrive if the collectivethrives.
And these stories, our stories,can just be about joy.
It can be about love.
It can be us building worldsthat keep us emotionally and

(01:02:58):
physically safe.
It's Wakanda, with Boots'sfirst.

Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
As we close this episode, let's take a moment to
just appreciate the trails thatBeverly Jenkins lays.
She shows us that the heroes ofthe West were as diverse as
America itself and that theirstories are real, important and
powerful.
Thank you for joining us onthis journey through Beverly
Jenkins' work, and sometimes, tofind the truth you need to read
, with love Coming up.

(01:03:25):
We're diving into a specialinterstitial by none other than
Netflix's Bridgerton's QueenCharlotte.
And hold on to your hatsbecause we've also got an
episode coming up that asks theprovocative question is romance
political?
We'll unpack the power dynamics, the societal shifts and, yes,
all the bullshit.
It's about to get real, folks.

Speaker 1 (01:03:44):
Thank you for tuning in today.
If you love what you heard,don't forget to subscribe, leave
us a review and share thispodcast with your friends.
Your support helps us keepbringing these stories to life
and, trust me, there's plenty ofmore where that came from.
Find us all on major podcastplatforms and follows on TikTok,
youtube and Instagram forupdates and behind the scenes
content.

(01:04:05):
Until next time, keep yourhearts unbound.

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