Interstitial 1: Politics and Romance with Guest Regina Black

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The first interstitial of the Unbound Podcast, we are getting political. Adriana and Nikki pic up the mic to unpack what makes romance with BIPOC inexorably tied to a message of resistance, and why that matters. 

Our guest this week is Regina Black. She discusses the impact of Authors on relationships and romance as political. The conversation revolves around the idea that authors are not just writers but visionaries who can inspire change and create new possibilities. We'll be discussing the importance of representation in media and how it can impact our perception of ourselves and others. This episode is all about the power of storytelling and how it can shape our reality

Here’s a quick glimpse of Regina Black’s newest book, “The Art Of Scandal”

On the night of her husband Matt’s fortieth birthday, Rachel Abbott receives a sexy, explicit text from her husband that she quickly realizes was meant for another woman. Divorce is inevitable, and Rachel is determined not to leave her thirteen-year marriage empty handed. Meanwhile, Matt, a rising star mayor with his eye on the White House, can’t afford a messy split in the middle of his reelection campaign. They strike a deal: Rachel gets one million dollars and their lavish house in the wealthy DC suburb of Oasis Springs, as long as she keeps playing the ideal Black trophy wife until the election.

Then Rachel meets Nathan Vasquez, a very handsome, very lost twenty-six-year-old artist, and their connection makes Rachel forget about being the perfect politician’s wife. As Rachel reawakens Nathan’s long-dormant artistic aspirations, their attraction becomes impossible to resist. But secrets are hard to keep in a town like Oasis Springs, and Nathan has a few of his own. With the risk of scandal looming and their hearts on the line, they’ll have to decide whether the possibility of losing everything is worth taking a chance on love.

The Art of Scandal is a sizzling, conversation-starting debut about rekindling passion, the transformative power of art, and finding love in unexpected places.

Read these award winning books from our co-hosts:

Sex, Lies and Sensibility, by Nikki Payne (Pre-Order)
 In this contemporary diverse retelling of Jane Austen's Sense and Sensibility, two sisters find themselves and find love in the rustic beauty of Maine.

Run Darling, by New York Times best selling Author Adriana Herrera

All Arabella Gaspar wanted was to buy some fun sexy grown-up toys for her first time leading her house’s run, but after one or two—okay, a dozen—threats from Magi who don’t think a girl should be a Toy Runner (eye-roll) her overprotective brothers have stuck her with none other than Rhyne Carrasco to be her bodyguard.

Meet Regina Black
website: https://www.reginablack.com
Interviews: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5dz4Jpw3np0A3GcCR1bR1L
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reginablackwrites/
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Episode Transcript

Adriana Herrera (00:02):
Welcome to Unbound, the podcast that
explores the intersection of popculture and the steamy world of
romance literature.
Join us as we celebrate thevoices and stories often left in
the shadows and unravel thethreads of joy, passion and
heartache that keep us allcoming back to the page and the
screen.
I'm Madera Herrera and I writeromance novels.

Nikki Payne (00:24):
And I'm Nikki Payne and I write romance novels.
And I'm Nikki Payne and I writeridiculous romance novels.
Welcome to Unbound, a podcastwhere we dive deep into the
unexplored terrains of romancesubgenres through a BIPOC lens,
unearthing histories andintertwining them with the
broader cultural context of ourtime.
As per usual, everything startswith a TikTok Dear Lord.

(00:49):
What now?
Okay, so I'm on the Croc appand a Black woman reader is
posting was posting about howshe loves to read white books
and that she just wants escapism.
She doesn't want struggle, shedoesn't want struggle love.
And of course, of course, shewas dragged for filth and

(01:12):
everyone hopped on this andstitched her and was like this
is, this is what you're thinking.
This is why it's wrong, but Iwant to unpack that.
I want to unpack that today.
I think there's a lot of work.

Adriana Herrera (01:22):
There is a lot of unpacking to do there.
On that statement of theimplication that reading a book,
that it's going to be a readingexperience where there is a lot

(01:48):
of trauma and there's just notthe lighthearted fun that a
person would expect when theyare reading a romance novel,
that's a lot.
That's a lot.
That's a lot to go into.
So I think, and I think, we canmanage, I think we have the
tools to do the unpacking, andit is something that I've been

(02:08):
thinking a lot about this summer, in particular after attending
Book Bonanza.
And just like as a littleexplanation for those who don't
know what Book Bonanza is, bookBonanza is a very big reader and
author event that has beenhosted by Colleen Hoover, who we

(02:29):
all know who she is, andColleen has been hosting this
event for many years.
I think this was like the eighthyear.
It's been going on for a longtime and this was my first year
going.
It was the first year that Iwas invited, and so it was an
interesting experience to me,for me and for a lot of the
other authors of color that Ispoke with, which stood out to

(02:54):
us, that a large swath of thereadership that were there who
were people of color, were byand large interested in books by
white authors.
To be fair, the readership thatwas there was about 1,700

(03:15):
readers.
The majority of them were white, but there was quite a good
portion of them who were peopleof color and by and large their
focus was on white authors.
So it was very noticeable to us.

(03:36):
When you say us, you mean theother authors of color, the
other authors of color,something that we discussed,
that we observed and like eveneven yesterday I was texting
with another black author andshe she was asking me like are
you thinking of going next year?
And part of what I said it'slike I'm not sure because I
don't know if that is ourreadership, which is sad to say,

(03:58):
because there was a goodportion of that readership that
were people of color.
There was a good portion ofthat readership that were people
of color, and especially I meanlike.
But going back to your, to theTikTok that we were initially
discussing, like especiallybecause this idea that our books
are not as desirable forescapist read because naturally

(04:21):
we would have heavy topics, it'ssomething that is really
interesting to me, because a lotof the readers that I spoke
with at Book Bonanza inparticular and this is not like
pointing out Book Bonanza, thisalso like I felt like this
experience was similar to me,for example, in a Polycon which
I went to last year, and a lotof them told me that what they

(04:45):
mostly read is dark romance,mafia romance or like dark
fantasy, which inherently is asubgenre that delves in a lot of
heavy topics Pretty heavy,there's a lot of graphic topics
Pretty heavy.
There's a lot of graphicviolence in these books.

(05:07):
There's a lot of trauma that isexperienced, sometimes on the
page, by the female protagonistsin a lot of these books.
I mean generally I'm talkingabout het books, but there's
dark and fantasy that are queerbooks as well.
But thinking about the ideathat you're reaching for books

(05:32):
by white authors because youwant that escapism, you don't
want that heavy topic, you don'twant that struggle, love and
then this popularity of darkromance, which the ones I've
read and I don't read a lot ofthem a lot of them are
relationships with a lot ofcontention because a lot of the

(05:53):
times the hero begins as thevillain.

Regina Black (05:56):
Yeah.

Adriana Herrera (05:58):
Which begs the question is it the heaviness of
the topics or the reader'sdiscomfort with confronting
violence?
Or is it that there's adiscomfort in having to read
anything related to race intheir romance, which I think is

(06:21):
the unpacking that we would bedoing today?

Nikki Payne (06:26):
Oh well, you all guessed it listening.
We're talking about a hot topicthat's been simmering in the
book community the politics ofreading books by people of color
.
Okay, picture this You'rereading a delightful romance
novel.
Birds are chirping in the air,Someone is singing.

(06:47):
In the background there's a dogbarking.
The characters are opening acharming Christmas tree farm.
That sounds innocent, right,but guess what?
Even those seeminglynon-political stories are rife
with politics, the politics thatreinforce the rightness of the
world as it is Like.

(07:07):
Everything's good, everything'sfine.

Adriana Herrera (07:10):
And the politics that imply that for
BIPOC authors and characters tobe palatable, we have to strip
away the layer of ourexperiences that others us, the
layer of our experiences thatothers us, that for us to be a

(07:31):
fun read we have to remove ourotherness.
So for us to be an escapistread, we have to take away, not
perhaps violence that has beendone to us, but the reason for
that violence.

Nikki Payne (07:40):
There we go.
You know, when I think ofescapist reads me personally, I
think of, like time travel orsci-fi, or historicals People
think about hey, the historicalhas nothing to do with me, these
are people in another time, ina different place.
And I know, adriana, that youwrite historicals.
Why do you think women readthem?

Adriana Herrera (07:59):
I mean it's kind of like a forked question
because I think right now thepopularity of historicals is in
decline.
I think people are going todifferent types of genres, but I
think in general, whyhistoricals have always been
popular?
A, I think it's because they'vebeen super white and I think it

(08:23):
has been for a long time a verysafe bet of a read in which you
will get a lot of fluff, youwill get nice carriages, you
will get you know that ballroom,those, you know that like very
masculine hero, and then youwill have this you know plucky

(08:46):
heroine who is like standing upfor herself but all within a
container that is very safelylike not touching upon the more
like problematic pieces of thatsociety.
So I think that's one of thereasons why it's been popular
and I think and there areauthors who have like from the

(09:07):
go, have been like a lot morelike stridently feminist in
historical, and I thinkhistorical right now is some of
the most feminist romance thatis being put out, because it is
really leaning into like a womanthat is really trying to undo
the patriarchy Like, if you talk, for example, to like an author

(09:31):
like Sarah McClain.
Like Sarah McClain, knockout,yeah, knockout.

Nikki Payne (09:35):
Yes, Red Knockout Fantastic.

Adriana Herrera (09:37):
That entire series is amazing.
But Sarah goes in with thathero really truly representing
the patriarchy and she goes intrying to undo it, and so it's a
very different.
I think that is why it's kindof an easier read for women who

(10:00):
like a historical that is veryfeminist, because you can't the
urgency for those women to claimtheir rights, to fight for
their position in the worldfeels, I think, a little safer,
because it's not making usconfront, perhaps, the fights
and the struggles that arepresent for us now and that we

(10:23):
perhaps don't feel prepared togo after, and those fights and
struggles are oftentimes full ofmuch more nuance and it's a
little hard to actually wrapyour hand around, and so
oftentimes these historicals areseen as not political.

Nikki Payne (10:41):
But what really chafes me about labeling books
by people of color as politicalis that.
One of the things that bothersme is I think we're indirectly
affirming that those bookswritten by the majority culture
and about the majority cultureare somehow neutral.
It just gives this like cloakof invisibility on those stories

(11:01):
, but again, guess what that'swrong.
Invisibility on those stories,but again, guess what that's
wrong.
Every book, no matter the genreor author, they carry out a set
of beliefs and values thatshape our understanding of the
world.
Every book, small or large, iscoming to you with a point of
view, and I think that's one ofthe things that I want to scream

(11:22):
to the rooftops.
Is that, like that perceivedsafety of neutrality, of
non-politicalness, is a facade.
Everyone's telling yousomething, everyone's whispering
to you.

Adriana Herrera (11:33):
I mean, because the idea that you want to
maintain a world that's free ofanything that alludes to
systemic oppression is really anendorsement of the status quo,
which benefits some and harms alot of others, and so that to me

(11:56):
is like part of and again, Ithink there's a shorthand in
romance of sub genres that Ithink we can.
There's a shorthand in romanceof sub genres that I think we

(12:21):
can people consider like afluffy, easy read, and I think
what that translates to is booksthat are very present in some
of these, you know, reallypopular dark romances.
Like not to say that youshouldn't read dark romance.
I think people should readwhatever they want, but it's.
I think, that we need to be alittle bit more introspective in
why it is that we are OK withreading books that have graphic

(12:45):
violence on the page, some of it, a lot of it being perpetrated
against women, and yet we cannottolerate a small town romance
that delves, perhaps, with awhite politician who is a racist
.
Come on, like.

(13:06):
We can't tolerate that, like.
Why?
Why?
Why is that so?
When we are talking about smalltown romance, what is that
shorthand for?
What do you envision, nikki,when you think of a small town
romance?

Nikki Payne (13:21):
I think of Gilmore Girls, I think of Stars Hollow
quaint cities no people of color.

Adriana Herrera (14:08):
There's a bakery.
There's a struggling mom who'svery rich but hates to be rich.
Like any town in America thatdelves that.
Usually you have things aboutcommunity solidarity, people
coming behind you know thestruggling diner trying to build
a new school house for thechildren.
It's wholesome, it's feel-goodstuff that like just confirms to
the reader that, like any townin america is just like a great
place to live, full of greatpeople the the Hallmark theory.
Yes, yes, yes, the Hallmarktheory.
And even when it has even alittle bit of angst, of

(14:29):
heaviness, perhaps it's a personthat's coming back to confront
the demons of their past.
There's some childhood traumathat they have to grapple with.
They've reconnected with thatfirst love that after some kind
of horrible incident they weretorn from.
So all of that is what you get.

(14:49):
It's like the salt of the earth, right, when we say salt of the
earth, the thing that is thesame for everybody.
Anybody could find something toconnect to, something to root
for in a small town romance,caveat, when you think about the
people in it, they're all white, and so what does it look like

(15:16):
when the protagonists are blackor brown, though?
When they are people of color,the themes are the same.
But the demons of the past,unfortunately, could come in the
shape of microaggressions Comeon.
Could come in the shape of arace crime.
Could come in the shape of avillain that wants to gentrify a

(15:40):
neighborhood yeah, aneighborhood.
And so then that becomes anuncomfortable read, because our
experiences are not the standard, because the way that we've
trained ourselves and in a lotof ways publishing has trained

(16:01):
us is to believe that thestandard, the baseline for what
the human experience is.
It's something that has nothingto do with the ways that people
of color and their identitiesintersect.
Yep, so I mean.
A great example of this for meis After Hours on Milagro Street

(16:24):
, which I think that by AngelinaLopez, which I think is
probably one of the bestcontemporary series to have come
out in the last 10 years.
I honestly it is phenomenal.
And so it is a small townromance.
It's set in Freedom, kansas.
I did not know a lot aboutKansas before I read that book,
to be honest, because I am fromthe Dominican Republic and I

(16:47):
have only lived in New YorkState since I've been in this
country, and so I didn't know alot about it.
But the protagonist is aMexican-American woman who is
from this town, who comes homeand begin to grapple with again
some childhood trauma.
She's been estranged from herfamily, who are all Mexican, who
have been there for generations, and she's there to kind of

(17:11):
untangle a mystery and to savethis building that her
grandmother has had a bar typeof like neighborhood watering
hole for many years.
And this romance is phenomenal.
It is sexy, it is juicy, juicy.
This heroine is outstanding.
The hero is like seven feettall and so swoony.

(17:34):
And she and angelina, on top ofdelivering us a phenomenal I
mean truly outstanding romance,also delves into the history of
Mexican-Americans in Kansas,which I had no idea.
That Mexican-Americans builtthe railway in the Midwest, I
didn't know that and she talksabout the way that those

(18:00):
Mexican-Americans were treated,the things that the city
government did to discriminate,to keep them out, and how
they've gentrified theneighborhoods that had been
historically Mexican American inthat town.
Really, the villain is whitesupremacy in this book, and to

(18:21):
me that book should have beenone of the I mean honestly one
of the most popular books oflast year, and yet it wasn't.
I think it's because she wastouching too many pain points
for the average reader, who'sjust does not have the
proficiency to read that kind ofbook, like a book delving with

(18:43):
those types of issues.

Nikki Payne (18:48):
And that's actually the danger.
That's the danger you touchedon it right on the nose of
classifying these stories,written by an amazing story like
that, as an issue book, becausewhat it does is diminish their
universality and dismiss theincredibly rich narrative that
enriches the small town.
It actually makes the story ofthe small town better.

(19:10):
Right, and the idea of booksthat are about social justice
and race and exploring the humanexperience and all of its
complexity as somehow toopolitical or not interesting.
You actually miss an incrediblerichness of experience Because,
just like After Hours andMilagro Street, they're about

(19:31):
love, they're about heartbreak,family, identity, and these are
things that resonate withreaders of all backgrounds.

Adriana Herrera (19:39):
Yeah, and I mean, I think it's learning is,
to me, is developing ordeveloping the ability to read,
read something and not becentered, and I think that's
really hard for readers who havenot had to do that for their

(19:59):
whole lives.

Nikki Payne (20:00):
For us, I need a reggae air horn.
Like that is such a key moment,like that is a skill to read
something and not be centeredWow.

Adriana Herrera (20:14):
Yeah, and I think that is partly what is so
hard for a lot of readers andthat's what it makes it
political for them, because Ithink there's just a long
history in American culture andAmerican society of teaching us

(20:35):
that being political is somehowbeing un-American, and what it
means by that is that if yousupport the status quo, you're
patriotic, and if you don't, ifyou say, actually there's, these
systems are not working for alot of people and we need to
change them.
And that means that, like, theplaying field is going to have

(20:56):
to look a little different thanthat is just being, you know, on
American in some way, becauseyou're saying things are not
perfect already as they are.
And with books like this, whichis saying I'm going to give you
a look at a small town inAmerica with Mexican Americans
who love where they're from it'sjust that place sometimes does

(21:19):
not love them back and how theyhave learned to still thrive in
that environment, is not anindictment on your own whiteness
, but perhaps giving you adifferent way to perceive what a

(21:40):
small town could be if it'sexplored from a different lens.

Nikki Payne (21:47):
Exactly, this is a non-romance wreck.
But one of the authors who doesthis so well, small town, small
Southern town, detective SACrosby.
His detectives are reluctantheroes.
They're great.
It's absolutely out of the kindof hero's journey.

(22:10):
It's very Americana, right, butthese are Black heroes in the
South who are pushing against asystem, a system that is
oftentimes against Black folkbut against the poor as well, or
against other types ofindividuals, right that that
particular detective canrepresent.
And I'm saying this because,reading those small-town stories

(22:33):
, it completely enchanted thosespaces for me all over again.
Right, it filled those withspaces that are not all about
trauma.
They're about mystery and aboutcover-ups and right out of John
Grisham gripping novels ofpolitical intrigue.

Adriana Herrera (22:50):
I co-sign that recommendation.
I have not written his latest,but his last two have been one
of my favorite books of the year.
When I've read them he is aphenomenal.
And again it's just like is aphenomenal.
And again it's just like.
Ruby Lang, who is one of myfavorite authors and she I did a

(23:15):
piece a few years ago aboutjust like diversity and romance,
and she said something.
I talked to a few authors andshe said something to me that I
have thought about almost everyday since she said it to me and
that that for the reader who isnot used to reading outside
their experience, when they readdiverse romance, they are not
just reading the world.
They're not just reading theworld building within the novel,

(23:38):
but we as authors are worldbuilding for them and making
their world bigger.
I love that and I think aboutthat all the time because, even
as I was saying before, I didn'tknow a lot about the Midwest
and my perception of the Midwestwas a very white place.

(23:59):
And yet with Angelina's seriesI've learned that Mexican I mean
, when I think about MexicanAmericans, I think about the
South, which was Mexico, butwhen I think about the Midwest I
never think about MexicanAmericans, and yet there's like
they've been there forgenerations and generations.

(24:19):
And so that, to me, is one ofthe like, the beauty of reading
diversely and the work it can doin the reader, of perceiving
the world around themdifferently, speaking of things
that can resonate to readers ofall backgrounds, a perfect

(24:41):
example that is canon in romanceand, for many of us, a comfort
read.
It's one of.
I mean, it's a classic, it's aclassic upon a classic, the
movie is a classic, the show isa classic, the book is a classic
, everything's a classic.
It's Pride and Prejudice.
So Another reggae air horn,that a woman, a young woman,

(25:22):
unmarried young woman of afamily that is not in the best
financial position to say theleast that has to marry off five
daughters would be rebelagainst a man with so much power

(25:43):
that she would reject the ideathat you can't marry for love.
To reject, for go say no tosecurity because she's aiming
for happiness not once but twice, if you think about her creepy

(26:03):
cousin, about super creepyCollins with the potatoes,
although that's just in themovies and then to literally
play in the face of thepatriarchy and not end up dead,
not end up in a super unhappy,possibly violent marriage, but

(26:24):
living in the castle atPemberley.

Nikki Payne (26:29):
Yes, ma'am, in the crib, she got the crib.

Adriana Herrera (26:35):
So please talk to me about that.
One of the things that I wantto talk about is the idea that
for that story to be told thestory of Lizzie and Darcy to be
told from the lens of a Blackwoman or a Brown woman, that you

(26:58):
would have to depart from thesource, from the text.

Nikki Payne (27:04):
Oh, this is so juicy.
So I feel like I've read everysingle retelling of Pride and
Prejudice.
For this reason and a lot ofthings that people think is that
when you write a story likethis, in order for an Asian male
lead and a Black woman to kindof make sense in Pride and
Prejudice, like so many things,have to be taken away.

(27:26):
A lot of people were when theyread the book.
They're like, wow, this, thisis pretty close to the original
and I was like, yeah, that'sactually quite on purpose.
Individuals, this Black woman'sperspective seeing injustice in
her neighborhood, seeingsomething gone wrong in her
neighborhood, seeing anindividual who imagines himself

(27:48):
above them in her neighborhoodand her having the gall to stand
up to someone who has leaguesand leagues, more agency and
power than her to say no and tocontinue to say no in front of
everyone than her to say no andto continue to say no in front
of everyone was still apolitical move.
And the reason why I feel like,personally, you can't really

(28:10):
retell Jane Austen without itbeing in some way political.
I think you do a disservice toJane Austen to rewrite it and,
you know, make the charactersreally innocuous and not really
struggling against some societalbarrier.
It has to be radical.
Elizabeth has to make a radicalchoice in order for Pride and

(28:35):
Prejudice to be Pride andPrejudice and I think in the
context of a Black woman inSoutheast DC who was just
evicted from her home withabsolutely no agency but a lot
of ideas for her to actively goup against essentially the brick
wall of money andgentrification in DC, is

(28:59):
outrageous.
It's outrageous in the way thatsomeone would read Pride and
Prejudice during that time andturn the pages with their mouth
agape at what Elizabeth Bennettwas doing.
Right, the extent to which Lisain Pride and Protest is willing
to put herself out and put herneck out and really kind of

(29:20):
almost be kind of tarred andfeathered socially for what she
believes in, I think is stilltrying to be attentive to kind
of the radicalness of thatoriginal text.
And I do think that Jane Austen,in all of her books she was
always concerned about like whohad the money, who has the power
?
How does this person get power?

(29:41):
Is marriage the best way?
And if marriage is the best way, how does this person without
power attain that power?
Right?
So she was always attentive torelationships, power dynamics,
marriage, patriarchy.
She was always on it.
And I think right now, when weturn on pride andice, like we're

(30:02):
eating ice cream maybe ourboyfriend's broken up with us
and you know and like it'sbackground music, it's I mean,
it's fluff, almost it's seen ascompletely innocuous.
And I wonder if Jane Austenwould just kind of walked in
today She'd be like were youguys not aware that this was
crazy at the time?
So yeah, the the idea that thatnow has floated into the kind

(30:24):
of everyday imaginary is kind ofon purpose.
You secretly you take a novel,you take a book that's in the
white imaginary, right as aninnocuous thing, and then you
sneak that in like a Trojanhorse and you tell a Black story
.
And there we are doing thatthing of kind of opening up

(30:44):
people's experiences.
I had a person in a book clubtalk to me about having to
Google a twist out and saying,oh, her hair was in some way.
I just knew that she was reallyproud of it.
But I ended up having to Googlea twist out and I'm like that
is the work.
Do you know what I mean?
That's the work, right?

(31:05):
Open your mind and now you knowthat that's a style that
someone can be proud of, right?

Adriana Herrera (31:10):
Yes, Exactly, and I mean I think part of what
I think is important about yourbook and I think other
retellings that I've read like.

Nikki Payne (31:23):
one of my favorite retellings is Aisha at Last
which that's my favorite, that'smy absolute favorite, and I
wrote one Aisha, at Last, is thebest.

Adriana Herrera (31:33):
To me it's phenomenal, but I think part of
what I think is dangerous and Isaid that to you earlier it's
just like the language that weuse around.
Retellings of the implicationthat a Black woman or a Muslim
woman would have to reimaginethe story for it to be able to

(31:57):
be told from the perspective ofa Black woman or a South Asian
Muslim woman implies that theuniversality and the things that
make sense about Pride andPrejudice, with its white
characters, wouldn't somehowapply to a story being told

(32:18):
about a Black woman in DC in2022.
That is just like fightingagainst, like capitalism and the
patriarchy, and I think that,to me, is part of where like no,
let's make this to the work,even in our language of like,
not othering.
Those stories which are actuallyvery faithful to the original

(32:40):
text, yeah, and in the reallyimportant themes, in the places
where jane austen was, as theysay, putting her foot in it, are
very much in in tune because,again, like the fight of a woman
standing up for herself andwhat she believes in in the face

(33:00):
of the patriarchy, and thathero that represents all the
things that confine us, needingto see the error of his ways and
needing to humble himself,because love has come, and it
has come in the shape and formof someone who is putting a

(33:21):
mirror up to him and telling himthe way you've been doing it is
not okay.
Yeah, and now you have tochange your whole entire life
and give a lot of your moneyaway and go and save my sister,
because she crazy go and save mysister because she cray,
because she out there for thestreets exactly, and okay, you,

(33:42):
okay, you might've been rightabout Wake Em, but I was right
about everything else.

Nikki Payne (33:49):
Yes, what you're talking about is, like the, this
kind of like ghettoization ofthe particular, or this sense
that this experience, this AsianAmerican experience, this Black
American experience, this AsianAmerican experience, this Black
American experience, thisLatinx experience, is particular
and that these whiteexperiences are universal.
Right, so and like.

(34:10):
That's the way that I thinkthese stories that are extremely
universal get put into thislike multicultural issues, and
it's just like a romance.
My book is labeled in Amazonunder multicultural issues.
I guess it's an issue, butthat's that ghettoization of

(34:33):
what people can imagine.
Oh, this is a very particularexperience that no one can
relate to, but this experienceof Pride and Prejudice is
universal and everyone canrelate to.
But this experience of prideand prejudice is universal and
everyone can relate to it andthat's like.

Adriana Herrera (34:45):
That's like I mean it's not cute, but it's
understandable perhaps for awhite reader to really need to
make for themselves that likemake that difference or like
make those two, two, twodifferent things, like there's
pride and prejudice, and thenthere's the retellings by people
of color, but it's not cute forus black and brown people and

(35:06):
specifically for readers.
It is vital for us to not fallinto the trap of we, we won't be
able to enjoy something that isfor us and by us, because what
we're actually saying by sayingI've been, I I can't read the
stories that are about peoplelike me.
I'm going to read the storiesthat are about worlds that don't

(35:28):
even envision a space for me isthat we're resigning ourselves
to something that like, in a way, kind of like, confirms that we
can't have that happiness inthe real world.

Nikki Payne (35:44):
Adriana, you've touched on the question that I
have for you, that I keptracking my brain and like
watching all of these TikToks.
Bringing it back to thebeginning.
This was a.
This was a Black woman, right?
Who said I can't.
I can't read Black stories, Iwant white stories.
This is a Black woman and,honestly, she's probably not the

(36:06):
only Black woman who feels likeshe can only read Black stories
.
What are we eating?
What food and poison are weeating, and what are we telling
ourselves by saying this is thetype of story that resonates and
connects with me in this way.
Does it?

(36:27):
Are writers not serving blackwomen?
I mean, what do you think?

Adriana Herrera (36:32):
No, I think it's like we've, like it's that
we bought into this idea thatthat an authentic, a true to
life representation of Blackness, of a, you know, brown, latino

(37:06):
indigenous person, is always sopainful that it cannot be
legitimately a romance.
Like that's like part of, likethat's the trap.
We're delegitimizing the factthat we, that the stories that
you and I are writing arepossible for us, and that is
tragic for us because it is.
It's true that perhaps you'rereading a book that has no

(37:26):
allusions to systemic oppression, where your protagonist has no
contact with racism or with anykind of violence, systemic
violence but at the same time,it's kind of saying I'm going to

(37:47):
settle for never being the maincharacter, yeah, yeah.
Or having to reimagine myselfas a white woman, which cannot
be us.

Nikki Payne (38:00):
Yeah, it's sad, it is sad, it's sad, it is sad,
it's sad.
I'm thinking of this novel thatI read, speaking of just like
what is normalization andunderstanding yourself and your
body to be outside of thestandard deviation, and how

(38:20):
powerful it is once you areunderstood in your own context.
A novel called Counterfeit, byKristen Chen.
And she is an American Chinesewoman and she travels to China
and the one thing that shemarvels at is how the world fits
her again, how she goes into ashoe shop and the shoes slip

(38:44):
right on and the guardrails areright at her hand length and
just like it was a world madefor her.
And it was this interesting.
I'll remember this for a whilebecause it is that feeling that
you feel that makes you realizethat you are not outside of some

(39:05):
standard deviation as a Blackwoman, when you go in to buy
jeans and you know thatautomatically it's going to have
that gap in the back and youthink that's how jeans fit right
, until you go and get a dressmade from a Ghanaian dressmaker
and you're like, oh dear God,this was made for me.

Adriana Herrera (39:26):
That flap goes right up to the you know, the
small my back, Like it's notjust freewheeling on like by my
butt.

Nikki Payne (39:36):
Exactly, exactly.
But there's this moment whereyou're situated in, like in the
clothes of your making, right Inthe shoes of your making, and
you have to look around and saythis fits me.
This is where I am and I think,for some of those Black readers
, they are jumping to put jeanson and they think that is the
way that jeans are supposed tofit.

(39:59):
Sorry for the offended metaphor.

Adriana Herrera (40:09):
And I mean again like why do we write these
books?
Because we were hungry,starving, thirsting for books
that we could read.
That spoke to us at that level.
At that, you are jumping to putyour jeans on and you feel my

(40:29):
pain.
You know how it is to go intolike a pharmacy and then be
confronted with nothing but headand shoulders and you're like I
can't buy any of this, I can'tput any of this on my hair.
Or a heroine that wears abonnet to bed, like shea butter,

(40:50):
I don't know.
So many things that are justparticular, unique to us and
that we deserve to read about inthe romance that we read.

Nikki Payne (41:02):
In writing.
Pride and Protest.
I fought to keep this scene in.
It was not even conducive tothe plot.
But there's just this one sceneof Lisa putting on a yaki
ponytail and talking with hersister.
She's trying to decide on whatponytail to wear.
She's just shifting throughponytails and Janae's like no,
not that one, yes, that one.
And it's like this moment whereshe's putting on hair in the

(41:24):
way that people do when they'regetting ready to go somewhere
and like styling their hair upand adding that additional like
yaki ponytail to get the vibe orwhatever that they're trying to
get.
It was such a small like momentand in the editing process I
fought for that because I saidno, there is.
There's a fundamental gettingreadiness of like putting on a

(41:47):
slick ponytail for a Black woman.
You know what I mean Making aslick ponytail and putting on
that whatever poop in the back.
That's an experience and I wantthat to be part of Lisa getting
ready.
Yes.

Adriana Herrera (41:56):
And I mean, and there's so many examples like
in our books, of moments likethat that I like I in On the
Hustle, which was my lastcontemporary like I had, some
multiple people have likehighlighted this conversation
that the hero, who is Dominican,and the heroine have, where he
admits that he doesn't likeplantains and she freaks out,

(42:19):
she's like, can you even saythat Like?
Can you even say that out loud?
And so many Dominican readershave been like, oh my God, I
hate plantains.
I don't.
I love plantains, mom, but it'sthat piece of it's such a
central part of our diet, of ournutrition, of what like keeps
us moving, and to not like it isalmost like sacrilege.

(42:50):
And so, again, like, we deserveto be in a book where this,
where the strap, is just wherewe need it to be like if it's
just right there, where it'saccessible to us at a granular

(43:10):
level, we deserve that.
We deserve that and I thinkwe've been taught To have to
just like settle for somethingthat only offers us like
Glimpses of us of what we couldbe.

Nikki Payne (43:35):
Welcome to 830, a segment in the Unbound podcast
where we ask every author thesame questions and get wildly
different answers.
It's time for 830 with ReginaBlack.
It's time for 830 with ReginaBlack.
Regina Black is a former civillitigator, current law school

(43:56):
administrator and lifelongromance reader who has always,
always, been living under a rock, is propulsive, twisty turny, a
sexy story of a Black trophywife who just found out her
politician husband is cheating.

Adriana Herrera (44:16):
They strike a deal and now she has a million
reasons to stay a good wife, butthat was before she met Nathan,
and it has just been announcedthat it's been optioned for a
television show.
And I have to say personallypersonally, like from the first
chapter when I was reading thatbook, I listened to it, I
listened to it, I listened tothe audio I was like this needs
to be a show.
So I am glad that the universeand it will now be on my

(44:44):
television sometime, hopefullyin the not too far future.

Regina Black (44:48):
Yeah, manifest the test.
Yes, no, I love that becauseeveryone says read the book.
And they go oh, this is makinga TV show.
And this book was literallyinspired by my love of those
type of TV shows.
So it's just this circle, it'sperfect.

Nikki Payne (45:09):
Regina Black.
What if I told you you're inthe right place?

Adriana Herrera (45:11):
Yes, because we're going to talk about it.

Nikki Payne (45:12):
We're going to get into it.
We're going to get into it.
So, first of all, welcome toUnbound and thank you so much
for chatting with us.
And my first question is adoozy but I think you can handle
it Is romance political.

Regina Black (45:32):
Yes, absolutely I think it is, and I think it's
political in the fact that it'spolitical in who we write those
stories about, because these arestories that inherently send
their joy, and who you decide isdeserving of that happily ever

(45:52):
after or that happily for now isvery political, even though we
often don't even think about it.
So who gets who gets thosestories about it?
So who gets who gets thosestories?
Why do we choose those peopleis a reflection of our capacity
for empathy.
What are our values?
What are important?
It just says a lot about uswith that, like who we decide

(46:18):
should be centered in thosetypes of stories, and
particularly for people of color, for Black women in particular.
You know, one of the thingsabout our stories most often is
that they tend to center, likeour trauma and our struggle and
things like that.
And when you put a Black womanin this situation where you're

(46:40):
actually centering her, you knowher living instead of her
struggle.
That's an inherently politicalstatement that you're making.

Adriana Herrera (46:48):
When you center her in a story like that, yes,
yes, I think also part of it isalso like how big your world is
right, like it really, it reallygives a sense of your sense of
the world.
I have another question for you, yeah, and that is if you can

(47:19):
remember the first romance youread.

Regina Black (47:22):
I wish I could.
I cannot, and this is why Ihave a reason I cannot.
And this is why I have a reasonbecause I entered.
I came into romance back whenHarlequin category romances were
pretty much the primarycontemporary romance out there
and they would put out so manyand I was just eating my candy,
like literally go to the library.

(47:42):
They had that little thing thatstand that rotated and like all
the new ones would come and Ijust check them all out and then
I'd take them home, read themall, bring them back, check them
all out, like I just gobbledthem up and then I used to
balance read those and thenhistoricals, read those and then

(48:08):
historicals.
Um, and so I just read so manyromances growing up that I can
remember certain books, uh, thatmade an impression on me, but
like the absolute first one Iwould say it's probably like
fifth grade is something likearound that time, so I'm gonna
amend, I'm gonna imagine can youremember I?

Adriana Herrera (48:24):
I have a similar situation where I can't
remember exactly like yeah, Ihave a.
I remember a lot of differentthings I read, but I remember I
do have one that I remember thatbook and reading it and being
like whoa, and just because itwas like I was like 12 hormones,

(48:44):
like my body was doing.
That was yes, untamed byelizabeth lowell he, it's like a
viking he shows up unconsciousat her.
No, he's, yeah, he's like somekind of big man and he shows up
like unconscious and then shelike rubs oils on him to like

(49:06):
bring him out of the coma andlike I have that like memory of
like reading of this woman, liketrying to bring this man out of
a coma with oil.
So, yeah, do you remember abook from like that time of your
life, though that it's likeimprinted?

Regina Black (49:23):
yes, yes, um, it would probably be for all the
right reasons by Elaine Kaufman.
Um, I read that book.
So the book, the premise ofthat book, is there are these
two brothers and there are thesetwo sisters that grew up
together.
One of the sister, the mousyone, yeah, there's always a
mousy one.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, becausethere's always that mousy one
that's gorgeous.

(49:43):
Yeah, is in love with the olderbrother who is like your alpha
kind of I'm already in.
I'm already in yes, and.
But he does not know this andhe is in love with the pretty
sister who is blonde and perfectand all that kind of stuff.
Well, he goes off to make hisfortune and gets drunk one night

(50:07):
and writes a letter to thesister he's in love with asking
her to marry him.
Only he mistakenly puts thewrong sister's name in the
letter and so the wrong sisterthat has been in love with him
all this time gets on a train ora boat, I can't remember, and
of thinking she's marrying theman she loves his, the guy that

(50:27):
got drunk his brother wasactually in love with the mousy
sister finds out what he did andgrabs his brother and is, like
you're gonna marry I am unwell.
Like absolutely not.
I mean, you are a liquid man.
That book, like I, was like what?
Like it's phenomenal.

(50:49):
Now I haven't read it in a lotof years, but I will never
forget that book and that setupand it's messy and based on the
stuff I like to read and write.
I think it really imprinted onme early, like yeah.

Nikki Payne (51:06):
Wow.

Regina Black (51:07):
Wow yeah, for all the right reasons by Lane
Kaufman.

Adriana Herrera (51:11):
Nobody does mess.
Like a good Harlequin categoryand the plot is tight.
It's like a straight shot.

Nikki Payne (51:20):
Yes, oh my gosh, it's so good.
Okay, that seemed like a bookthat was full of compelling
tropes.
The question that I have foryou I mean, we've had trope
conversations, but is there aromance trope that you love that
doesn't actually work well likein real life?

Regina Black (51:45):
Okay, I have two.
I'm not going to say enemies tolovers, because I know that's
what you think I was going tosay.
I'm not going to say that.
That's an ongoing conversation.
I would say opposites attract.
I just don't buy that.
I think in real life evenpeople who think they're
opposites have commonalitiesthat make their relationships

(52:07):
work.
So every time I see oppositesattract, I'm like this is cute
at first, but wait a while.
Um right.
So I don't think you'll eversee me writing a and I mean I
could read an opposite attractsromance and like it, but I
always kind of side eye thelongevity of that because I'm

(52:29):
like it's cute when you'reattracted to somebody, but when
you're mad at them it's why youbreak up.
The other thing is lovetriangles.
I just don't think I canrealize.
I'm like watch, love is blindand you'll see what happens in

(52:49):
real life.
Love triangles, um so no, thatdoes not work in real life.
No, I love those.

Adriana Herrera (52:58):
I, I concur on all, on all your points, because
opposites attract is alwayslike, yeah, but wait until that
person starts embarrassing youin front of your friends, like
it's cute, but like that I think, extrovert, introvert is not so
much opposites attract, it'sjust like how you specialize is
different, but yeah, yeah butit's always gonna be a source of

(53:20):
conflict, like I have.

Regina Black (53:22):
I know people who are like spouses, like have that
intro or extrovert marriage andthey're happy.
But if they argue aboutsomething it has to do with
their differences.
And so when I read a book andit's like, oh, they're the
complete opposites, but theywork because he gives her what
she needs, her what she needs,I'm like people don't work that

(53:49):
way.
We, uh we go down like myhusband has a lot of opposite
qualities that I have and we dobalance each other out, but it's
compromise.
It's not like oh, he makes memore like him.
That's not what happened, right, right, what happens is you, it
forces you to not dig so deep,like dig your heels in so deep
where you are, but that's aboutit.

Adriana Herrera (54:10):
So, yeah, yeah I love it and yeah, I mean it's.
It's one of those things, right, we're like we're writing the
books and we're like thesepeople in real life would they
make't?
Know if they make it, wouldthey make it, will they make it,
but they make it in our books,and that's what matters.
You know what they do.
That is what matters.

Nikki Payne (54:31):
My husband is a 6'4", very lean former athlete.
We couldn't be more opposite.
I have only lifted books to myface.
You know what I mean onlylifted books to my face.
But but, uh, the narrativeoftentimes of how people
describe their relationships isstill wrapped up in those like
they'll be like married 50 yearsand they'll just like.

(54:52):
Oh, those weird completeopposites like people still talk
about.
Yeah, you know but you also.

Regina Black (54:59):
It's like even people that say we're complete
opposites.
There's something, there's somecommonalities and like how they
view the world and the values.
That is why they lasted 50years.

Adriana Herrera (55:10):
Absolutely Agreed.
Okay Now, moving into more of apop culture-y part of the
conversation.
So we wanted to know what TVshow or movie would you compare
your novel to?
And that's a loaded question inthis instance, because people

(55:30):
are going to have opinions.

Regina Black (55:35):
So I want to do the one that I think most people
would compare it to, the onethat mentally I compare it to.
Compared to the one thatmentally I compare it to, I
think most people compare mybook to Scandal, the show
Scandal, because it has thosecommonalities.
It's like in the DC area, it'sabout politics, it's about
people, power brokers and thingslike that Interracial marriage.

(55:59):
Interracial marriage, yeah,relationships, things like that,
like multicultural type, youknow, environment.
So there's a title, it's rightthere on the label.
So I absolutely think thatthere are a lot of similarities
there.
And I think part of that, whenpeople read my book and they

(56:22):
think of that show, is becauseShonda Rhimes right now is kind
of the queen of the primetimesoap opera.
Even though a lot of peopledon't call her shows soap operas
, that's absolutely what theyare.
Um, and my book was conceivedthrough my love of soap operas,
so it's I.
That doesn't surprise mewhatsoever.

(56:45):
The show that I often thinkabout is the Good Wife, because
of the themes inherent in that.
There is a scene at thebeginning of the Good Wife he's
given a speech about his affairand they walk back into this

(57:07):
room and she didn't say anything.
She just has that look on herface and he kind of looks at her
like he's like gonna talk toher and she just slaps him like,
and that scene, like it's onthe clip, is on YouTube.
I'm like this is the energythat I wanted to bring into the
beginnings, which is why you get, you know, rachel, like

(57:30):
Handling that news with thatanger that's coming out, instead
of like the heartbreak, I thinka lot of people would have
expected yes, so yeah, I mean tothat end when you talk about,
like, what people expected.

Nikki Payne (57:46):
Um, we're not in charge of how people read our
work, right, but what do youthink has been the biggest
misunderstanding of your work sofar, now that it's live and in
the world?

Regina Black (57:56):
that it's not a romance book.
Explain um what so I loveadriana space.

Nikki Payne (58:07):
It just was such a journey, like what how the you
know?

Regina Black (58:12):
yeah, so I've.
I've heard that a lot.
A lot of people have said thatabout my book.
Um, and I was.
I was a little taken.
I was taken aback because I, assomeone who loves romance, I've
been reading it all my lifeLike that came into it years and
years ago.

(58:32):
When I sat down to write thisbook I was like, okay, I'm going
to write a romance book and ithas the features that I've
always associated with romancebooks, like the main core plot
is that relationship is drivingthings forward.
It's dual point of view.
I'm not saying that romanceshave to be dual point of view,
but dual point of view istypically kind of a big marker

(58:57):
of romance.
I always say if you look at inthe film arena, rom-coms, follow
both characters.
You will have scenes with theman by himself and his subplot
and his story, and vice versafor the woman, and so that's
what we typically associate withromance on the screen.
That's what I associate with itin books.
That is what this is, and ithas a happy ending.

(59:20):
They end up up together.
To me, it's absolutely a romance.
I never thought of it asanything else.
I even when it was acquired itwas something I very strongly
articulate to my agent, to theeditor.
This is a romance book, so thathas always kind of taken me
back and it also makes me thinkabout, okay, what about this

(59:43):
book makes people not align itlike, not put it in that genre?
I have thoughts, but yeah, it'sinteresting, it's interesting.

Nikki Payne (01:00:06):
For those of you who were listening and didn't
hear me and Adriana's faces wejust made the same face of what
would make someone see this, youknow, black woman having what
they consider atypicalexperience and suddenly move it
into a different category ofreading.

Adriana Herrera (01:00:26):
I'm just befuddled, to be honest, like my
face has been hanging out, mymouth has been hanging open now
for like the last five minutes.
It's interesting to me and Ithink it's like, first of all, I
think, because it centers aLatino man and a Black woman.
I think it's a non-traditionalpairing because he's younger,

(01:00:48):
she's a woman who's like herlife is in turmoil, she's a
little messy, and I think that,to me, is, and I think it's the
timeline that we're now in inromance, where, like, a lot of
what you see is like um, um,like these power dynamics were
like so very strong, like abillionaire coming to kind of

(01:01:11):
rescue this younger, kind ofingenue, like, if you like,
that's the, but like, if youthink about, I don't know, susan
elizabeth phillips, like thekind of book she wrote, which is
like not a messy woman but awoman in a mess, like a smart,
tenacious woman who's just in amessy situation and like how she

(01:01:32):
gets herself out of it andfinds her strength.
Like that's like a classiccontemporary romance that has
been popular for always, whichwhich, usually with a bigger
story, where there's subplots,it expands beyond just the
romance and usually deals withother topics.
I think we just have to.

(01:01:54):
I think that people have.
If it can't be called a rom-com, people get confused.

Regina Black (01:02:01):
Yeah, I do think the expansive nature of the
story, the fact that I wroteabout like their worlds, maybe
part of it.
I also think, you know, when Iwrite male characters, I don't
develop them as kind of wishfulfillment type men.

(01:02:22):
I develop them as men that haveissues just like the women do.
And so I think sometimes ifyou're searching for a
particular romance experiencethat I've absolutely searched
for before with books, I'm notgiving you that.
I'm giving you more like okay,he's going through something,

(01:02:45):
he's having this coming of agearc while she's going through
something, and then they gothrough it together Titan
romance and that can feeldifferent than what somebody
might be used to.

Nikki Payne (01:02:59):
That is typically missing from a lot of people of
color's work is, you know,oftentimes the ability for the
masses to self insert right Tosee themselves and put
themselves in a story and haveoftentimes that female main
character be a bit of a blankslate.

Regina Black (01:03:18):
Yeah, yeah, it's highly specific.
I think like both charactersare very highly specific people
and their worlds are highlyspecific.
I have people comment on likethe supporting characters being
extremely specific as somethingthat kind of threw them them,

(01:03:45):
because I think there's like, oh, this person came, they're
supposed to be super important,because they feel like a highly
specific character and I'm like,no, I bet that was me just
trying to populate the town andmake it feel authentic and real.
So I all of it's kind ofspeculating because at the end
of the day, when I absolutelythink of this as a romance book

(01:04:06):
and the book I'm working on now,I actually would understand
that criticism a little bit more, because it does veer a little
way, a little bit away from thatI guess a more traditional
structure, but this one to me itwas like from a point of view,
the romance is the core story,it has a happy ending, it has

(01:04:26):
all the beats.

Adriana Herrera (01:04:27):
It has all the beats of romance.

Regina Black (01:04:29):
Yeah, even the third act breakup.

Adriana Herrera (01:04:32):
Yep In this house we are third act breakup
evangelists.

Regina Black (01:04:39):
I love a third act , breakup.

Nikki Payne (01:04:42):
You must read the new story, you must.

Adriana Herrera (01:04:45):
So this is a good segue to our next question,
which is about core story.
So one thing that, like I mean,I think a lot about in my work
and Nikki and I have talkedabout before, is that, no matter
what you're writing, there'slike a core story that you go
back to again and again andagain and again.

(01:05:05):
Um, so you already kind oftouched upon that, um, when you
were talking about yourprotagonist and how you write
them.
So what would be your corestory if you had one?

Regina Black (01:05:17):
um, I would say it's like the way I write
romance generally is always.
It usually ends up beingsomeone who is searching, who
needs self-love in order to beopen to invulnerable, to loving
someone else, to experiencingthat connection that they're
missing in their life.
And so every time, usually whenI sit down to write, I end up

(01:05:40):
developing some character whohas lost their way at some point
.
Maybe they had a passion or youknow something long ago that
fulfilled them and then theylost it, and the journey we go
on is them kind of coming backto themselves and learning how

(01:06:01):
to love themselves.
In a way that kind of justfacilitates this romance, and
the romance is like the vehiclethat brings them back to that
sense of loving themselves,which is why I tend to write
older characters, like Itypically write characters in
their 30s and up, because that'sa theme I'm just constantly

(01:06:27):
drawn to.

Adriana Herrera (01:06:29):
I mean that certainly comes through for
Rachel in Art of Scandal.
She really is coming back toherself in every physically,
emotionally, professionally, interms of her relationships.
So it is like that journey ofhers, like it was I I really
loved her like journey andthat's that course was clear to

(01:06:52):
me on that even, even even forhim too yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Regina Black (01:06:57):
for him that you can kind of see it's, it's a
little different because he istransitioning in my mind out of
that kind of like early adultspace, where you still kind of
have those childish qualitiesand view the world through that
lens, to a truly adult spacewhich makes falling in love with
this older woman kind of theperfect vehicle for that right,

(01:07:18):
yes, um, and which makes it veryspecific to falling for her.
But he also kind of he reclaimsthat love he had for his dad.
He, he reclaims kind of thosefeelings that he felt like he
had to walk away from orsuppress, you know, and is able
to kind of reclaim them but seethem more clearly as an adult of

(01:07:46):
reclaim them but see them moreclearly as an adult.

Nikki Payne (01:07:47):
So yeah, and so like thinking about your
character's transition and thenlike honestly, kind of switching
over to like regina's arc rightis there?
Was there something that at thetime in your writing career
that you saw as a bad omen orbad sign or even a disaster,
that actually ended up workingquite well for you?

Regina Black (01:08:08):
Not writing for like almost a decade.
I used to write all the time,wrote a bunch of books, and then
I just thought when I got likeI got married, I had my daughter
and I just wasn't doing it.
In the back of my mind I waslike I'm going to come back to
this, I'm going to come back tothis, but there was always this

(01:08:32):
can I come back to it?
Have I just not been writing solong that I can't do it anymore
?
And this was the book thatbrought me back to it, which is
probably why those things wereso prominent in the book.
And I think it was actually agood thing, because the stuff
that I'm writing now and thevoice I have now is because I

(01:08:54):
got married and had my daughterand lived and had these
experiences and failed and likewent through these big things.
So it changed the way.
It gave me a vocabulary forwhat is love really?
You know what is.
What does it mean to have yourheart broken?
What is loss really?

(01:09:16):
That I don't think was presentin my earlier work when I was
younger.

Adriana Herrera (01:09:21):
So earlier work when I was younger.
So yes, yeah, yeah, I mean thisinfuses that with like a
different kind of wisdom andperspective.

Regina Black (01:09:31):
Yeah, yeah, there's no way the book that I
have out there, I would neverhave been able to write that
like 10, 15 years ago.

Nikki Payne (01:09:43):
Thoughtful pause.

Adriana Herrera (01:09:44):
Yes, yeah.
So our last question is what isyour very tiny personal metric,
or like, your most smallestpersonal metric for success as a
writer?

Regina Black (01:10:04):
This was hard for me.
I had to think about this for awhile.
I think maybe when someone saysthey read my book in one
sitting or they couldn't put itdown, that is.
I mean, it just lights up partsof my brain when someone says

(01:10:27):
that because it's just like,okay, I did, I did my job and I
know that is the feeling that,you know, when I was young and I
was just this voracious readerwas the absolute best feeling in
the world.
Like I say when I was youngbecause now I, like you know, I
got too much going on to finisha book in a day, but back when

(01:10:51):
all I wanted to do was read, allI did was read there was this
high I used to get from likegetting a book that just pulled
me completely into that worldand I was like I want nothing to
disrupt my reading right now,like I want to stay here and for
me to have written a book thatdoes that for someone is the
absolute best feeling in theworld.

(01:11:12):
I love that answer.

Nikki Payne (01:11:14):
Yeah, yeah, that is .
That is.
That really is something.
I love it when, when people areproducing or productive about
your work afterwards, like forme, like it would bowl me over
to see someone like drawing ayou know what I mean, yeah, art,

(01:11:36):
or doing some fiction or doingyou know one act plays based on.
You know what I mean.
Just like whatever.
Yes, doing you know one-actplays based on you know what I
mean.
Just like whatever.
Like the whole notion of likeliking something so much,
remixing it and producing it,like the very thing that I did,
loving Jane Austen so much, andthen redoing it and then having
someone produce that.

Regina Black (01:11:55):
Yeah, please write fan fiction about the Citizen's
Voice's brain.
I love it.
Post it on AOL for it.3 like gonuts, don't?
That would make my don't, don'ttip me okay oh man, you have
some filthy ideas yes, go for itand send it directly to me,

(01:12:16):
please, please do it I, I lovedyour answer because it is true,
like, like.

Adriana Herrera (01:12:21):
as a reader, that's like an incomparable
feeling and experience when youare, when there's a book that
just won't let you go, that youjust can't walk away from it.

Regina Black (01:12:32):
You can't stop listening, you can't stop
thinking about it until you getback to it.
Yeah, yep, and just the idea oflike, oh, you wrote something
that someone has that experiencewith is just like nothing,
there's no, yeah, there'snothing.
So that's so special.

Nikki Payne (01:12:51):
And before we go, Regina, can you tell us a little
bit about what you are noodlingon right now?

Regina Black (01:12:59):
I am currently working on my second book that
will be released by GrandCentral.
It's planned to be released in2025.
And it is called August Lane,and it is a second chance
romance about a Black countrysinger who is a one hit wonder

(01:13:19):
and lied about singing his mostfamous song.
And lied about singing his mostfamous song and he gets a
chance at redemption.
But in order to take thatchance, he has to return to his
hometown small town, arkansas,where the woman who actually
wrote his song currently lives,and she is not too enthused

(01:13:42):
about his return.
It's giving what ought to begave.
It is giving what ought to begave.

Adriana Herrera (01:13:50):
I had to stand up straight when I read that
announcement.

Regina Black (01:13:55):
Yeah, I think of it, I've started to think of it
a little bit, like a star isborn with Black people and with
a hint of kind of like sevendays in June type second chances
tool timeline.

Nikki Payne (01:14:15):
Reclaiming Black Country, re-enchanting the South
.
You are doing it in the secondbook.
Yes, wow, look at us.
Look at our timing Okay, did wedo it at us?
Look at our timing Okay, did wedo it.
Are we actually great at things?
I think.

Adriana Herrera (01:14:31):
Can we actually time manage Apparently?
We can.

Nikki Payne (01:14:34):
Look at what we did .
Regina, thank you so much forcoming on the show, for sharing
these answers, these fantasticanswers.
Thank you for being our veryfirst.

Regina Black (01:14:46):
Yes, yay, I'm honored.

Adriana Herrera (01:14:54):
To be fair, part of what has, I think,
impacted people's taste, liketaste-making in terms of romance
, is that for a long time, for along time, publishing couldn't
envision our stories as anythingother than a struggle story.
I mean, it is true when youthink about YA, for example.

(01:15:16):
The big, big books in YA havebeen books about lessons, about
what life is as a Black personin America, which are very
important books.
But we rarely get a book whichis about, like you know, a Brown
girl falling in love over thesummer with the two hot brothers

(01:15:39):
that are next door and so likethat piece of it.
I think.
I mean, yes, anti-blackness isalso like a big piece of it and
people just not reaching for ourbooks because of all the things
that we have talked about.
But I think there has been atraining of like the reader to
expect the fun read to be theread with the white people on

(01:16:03):
the cover and the lesson book tobe the book with the brown
people on the cover.
And I think that's somethingthat needs to be unlearned, and
perhaps publishing hasn't evenhasn't done the work to reframe
that piece of things.

Nikki Payne (01:16:22):
That is absolutely on the nose.
I wasn't really thinking abouthow much of our experience with
traditional books is curated andhow much when we go, even right
now, for a Black person wholoves to read, how much extra
work a Black reader or anyperson of color will have to do

(01:16:43):
to find books that the voice iscentered on them and the
characters look like them andthe experiences are like them at
all, that it is actually anextra two or three steps, that
it may be simpler to grab thebook on the book talk table.

Adriana Herrera (01:16:57):
Yep, because, when it comes down to it, like
pretty much everything else,romance has been a space that
centers and reaffirms whitenessas a standard, and the only way
to change that comes withcreating consciousness around
that.
Like for people to realize, tohave the ability to gut check

(01:17:21):
and say to gut check and sayI've read up 257 romances this
year and not a single one hasbeen written by a person that's
Black or Brown, and the onlyBlack or Brown characters that
I've read have been ones writtenby white women.
And having the ability to say Ineed to perhaps be more

(01:17:43):
intentional about what I readbecause it's better for me, it's
better for me.
So yeah, like anything else inlife, when you're living in a
patriarchy, you have to beintentional about your feminism.
When you're living in a whitesupremacy, you have to be
intentional about deconstructingthat.

Nikki Payne (01:18:02):
Yeah, yeah, I'm just literally doubling down on
this.
When you embrace diversestories and recognize that
politics is in all books, webecome more informed and
empathetic people and betteractual readers and better
writers.
If writing is your jam, I thinkwe should challenge ourselves

(01:18:23):
to always become better at ourcraft and better at the things
that we enjoy, like reading, andyou do that actually by
spreading the love and readingbroadly.

Adriana Herrera (01:18:32):
Be like Jane Austen Lean into the political.

Nikki Payne (01:18:37):
Yes, yes.
So if you're listening outthere, tell us your diverse
reading villain origin story.

Regina Black (01:18:44):
What was the?

Nikki Payne (01:18:45):
moment that you decided that you needed to read
widely.
And where are you on thatjourney?
Hit us up, social media.
Until next time, keep yourhearts unbound.