June 7, 2024 • 59 mins
The first episode of the Unbound Podcast, where the worlds of pop culture and steamy romance literature collide. In this series your hosts and romance authors Adriana Herrera and Nikki Payne, will guide you through the depths of passion, exploring the corners of literature and storytelling that are often overlooked.
In our inaugural episode, we're diving into the wild west of romance. Join us as we explore the ways in which the western genre has been reimagined as a love story. From the dusty trails of cowboys and outlaws to the saloons and brothels of town, we'll examine how the western has become a hotbed of passion and desire.
Nikki Payne and Adriana Herrera are your guides on this journey through the uncharted territory of romance in the wild west. With their unique perspectives as authors and fans of the genre, they'll dissect the tropes, characters, and settings that have captured hearts everywhere. So saddle up and join us as we ride off into the sunset.
Our guest this week is Satoria Ray. She is having a Gaza Book Auction to raise funds to send to Palastenians it can be found at https://www.32auctions.com/gazabookauction?r=1&t=all and in her link trees at.
TickTock: https://www.tiktok.com/@satrayreads
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/satrayreads/
LinkTree: https://linktr.ee/satrayreads
Read these award winning books from our co-hosts:
Sex, Lies and Sensibility, by Nikki Payne (Pre-Order)
In this contemporary diverse retelling of Jane Austen's Sense and Sensibility, two sisters find themselves and find love in the rustic beauty of Maine.
Run Darling, by New York Times best selling Author Adriana Herrera
All Arabella Gaspar wanted was to buy some fun sexy grown-up toys for her first time leading her house’s run, but after one or two—okay, a dozen—threats from Magi who don’t think a girl should be a Toy Runner (eye-roll) her overprotective brothers have stuck her with none other than Rhyne Carrasco to be her bodyguard.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Adriana Herrera (00:02):
In a Western, no outside force can prevent
someone from being whatever theywant to be.
The West is all about untappedpotential and who gets there
first to exploit it.
Nikki Payne (00:13):
It's a big juicy vagina.
Adriana Herrera (00:15):
Welcome to the Unbound podcast, the podcast
that explores the intersectionof pop culture and steamy world
of romance literature.
Join us as we celebrate thevoices and stories often left in
the shadows and unravel thethreads of joy, passion and
heartache that keep us allcoming back to the page on the
screen.
I'm Adriana.
Nikki Payne (00:36):
Herrera and I write romance novels with hot and
horny Latina people and I'mNikki Payne and I write steamy
romance based on the booksyou're forced to read in high
school, and we're about toembark on a journey of the heart
of the American frontier, notas you know it, but as it
actually was.
Welcome to Unbound, a podcastwhere we dive deep into the
(00:58):
unexplored terrains of theromance subgenres through the
BIPOC lens.
We're going to be unearthinghistories and intertwining them
with broader cultural contextsof the time, and each series is
going to focus on a specificsubgenre, unraveling its nuances
and evolution.
Our inaugural series, for whichyou are here now, is how the
West Was Won, and it's a journeythrough the rugged yet romantic
(01:21):
world of cowboy romance.
Adriana Herrera (01:23):
Journey through the rugged yet romantic world
of cowboy romance.
We will also talk about thepioneers like Herb Jeffries, who
made films like Harlem of thePrairie, aimed specifically at
Black audiences in the 1930s,and Pedro Infante, a Mexican
actor who brought vaqueros andrancheras to the
Hispanic-speaking world.
The creation of the frontiermyth and its romanticization in
American culture.
(01:43):
The westernist genre and howits themes are the perfect
landscape for romance.
Nikki Payne (01:51):
Wait, wait, wait, Wait.
Before we get started, here'sthe thing that we need to
acknowledge the queen Adriana,the queen herself, has given our
first season a blessing.
The queen herself has given ourfirst season a blessing.
Adriana Herrera (02:07):
Beyonce's gone west.
Y'all Amen.
And there will be favoritetracks, a lot of conversation,
because Cowboy Carter truly isthe blessing of 2024.
But, for the sake of time,we've got to get back to
business and we will be talkingabout Beyonce's country album,
cowboy Carterter.
Why so many people of colorcall it white people's music?
(02:29):
And we dive into western media,romance novels, of course,
classic films and black postlike quotation films sorry,
english is my second language.
English, motherfucker, do youspeak it?
That complicate our conceptionsof the west.
And lastly, we ask the questionwhat happens when the
perspective shifts?
Doesn't matter who is tellingthe story.
(02:51):
I think it does.
Nikki Payne (02:52):
So let's think of the west as a vagina I have been
saying, adriana, it's a bigjuicy vagina.
Let's picture this vast deserts, towering mountains, endless
skies.
The western genre has painted apicture of the american west
that is ripe for the claiming,ripe for plunder, for
(03:13):
cultivation, for mastery.
Does that sound familiar?
Adriana Herrera (03:17):
well, kind of yeah.
The west as we've been toldthrough dime novels, silver
screen epics, is a story, anarrative that's crafted with as
much care as the moviesthemselves, and while the tales
have captivated audiences forgenerations, they've also woven
a myth, a myth that's oftenexcluded the very people who
(03:39):
shaped the West.
What is Western as genre andwhat is the Western myth in
fiction?
According to John Trudy, theWestern as a genre encapsulates
the essence of all Americanstorytelling.
It's the belief that we canreinvent ourselves at any time,
(03:59):
over and over again.
In a Western, no outside forcecan prevent someone from being
whatever they want to be.
The West is all about untappedpotential and who gets there
first to exploit it.
Vagina, vagina, and so thethemes of the Western are in
many ways the quintessentialhero's journey from the white
(04:22):
male gaze.
I mean comment, like you canjust see john wayne strolling in
with his little like hop thathe had yeah yeah, with his like
little holster, with his gun andthe hat tipped, just so.
yeah, a stranger rolls into townon his horse, finds the town in
(04:43):
turmoil and makes them right.
By the end of the book or show,the Rolling Stone has
established order in a lawlesstown, has cultivated a dry
climate or won the love of awild woman or horse.
Always a horse Always always ahorse.
Nikki Payne (04:59):
There's always a horse to tame Like.
What is that?
Adriana Herrera (05:02):
I mean, do you remember?
I there's.
The horses are as iconic as thecharacters remember silver from
the lone ranger yes, absolutelyso.
I remember mr ed, like that wasa woman about a talking, the
horse was the star, a man on hishorse is a thing that we
probably don't have time toexplore in this season, but it
(05:23):
is a thing so I probably don'thave time to explore in this
season, but it is a thing.
So I mean, yeah, like theWestern is how we show the new
gods of the American frontier.
Nikki Payne (05:33):
And thinking back, like what is your sense of the
Western?
Do you have a memory of seeingBlack people in Westerns?
Adriana Herrera (05:40):
Blazing Saddles comes to mind, classic.
What we start with in theseason is a simple question what
is the West really?
What are the stories we haven'theard, and how do they change
our understanding of what theAmerican West was and is?
Nikki Payne (05:59):
Do you think the Black or Brown Western is a
different story?
Adriana Herrera (06:04):
Yeah.
That's what the season is goingto be adriana.
Nikki Payne (06:08):
You know those comedy shows like comic view.
I used to watch those when Iwas little and the entire cachet
for comic view was like whitepeople do things like this and
black people do things like this.
Isn't that funny?
hilarious oh yeah, it was.
It was what we watched and whatwe continue to watch every
(06:28):
friday for, with these comediansto parse out the differences
between black reactions tomodern events of our time.
But I think in the western wecould actually ask this question
Do brown and black folk dothings, particularly do the West
, differently?
Adriana Herrera (06:47):
I mean, I certainly think so, because in
the end we approach it in acompletely different way,
because so much of ourstorytelling is about the
survival of the community.
We can't survive in isolation.
Riding off into the sunset on ahorse on our own is not viable
for us, because what are wegoing to find in the great
(07:08):
unknown?
Um, so community survival,liberation for us all, is the
ultimate goal, not law and order.
So the the very idea of thewestern from the white gaze,
where it's like re-establishingorder is the end goal, just
fundamentally doesn't work forpeople of color okay, this is a
(07:30):
perfect time to finally talkabout beyonce.
Nikki Payne (07:33):
When we talk about just going into a genre and
busting it up, right, country isall about order.
It's all about who gets play onthe radio.
It's all about does this soundlike country?
Where is this person from?
Does this fit into the genre?
And for Beyonce to come in withher elbows ablaze saying this
(07:53):
is a Beyonce album, right, andthis is the genre, she's
literally doing the thing thatwe say black folks do, right Is
destabilizing the particular lawand order of the genre.
So she's the queen from houstonand she stepped into the
spotlight with this huge countryalbum and it's already
redefined what country music is.
(08:15):
So she's already done the job.
Right, like quote from beyonce.
You know, you that bitch, whenyou cause all this conversation.
So she's already done it okay,but like.
But again, this was a hugecontroversy like this raised
outright.
This raised eyebrows when shefirst um performed with the
dixie chicks.
And the outright exclusion ofblack artists face in the
(08:39):
country music scene is alsosomething that beyonce, you know
, trying to shed a light on.
You guys remember.
I don't know if you guysremember that CMA performance
when she went on stage with theDixie, with the chicks I call
them the Dixie chicks.
When she went on stage with thechicks it wasn't just oh, this
is a performance, it was astatement, a challenge to the
(09:01):
gatekeepers of the genre thatowe as much to Black musicians
as it does to the whitecounterparts.
So, growing up in Houston, likehitting up the Houston Live
Sexual Rodeo, beyonce knows thisworld inside and out, but more
than that, she's illuminatingthis past, kind of back to the
roots of country music that areas black as they are Southern
(09:22):
and American and universal.
This is a whole other discussionon like what is a universal
experience, but we won't go intothat.
So in doing that, she'schallenging our understanding of
that genre, breaking down thosebarriers and the law and order
essentially of the genre.
That's why Cowboy Carter isjust a great vehicle for us to
(09:42):
kind of invite you all toreimagine this narrative of the
American cowboy and the AmericanWest itself.
So we're not going to get aheadof ourselves Y'all.
I can talk all day, becauseCowboy Carter is going to be its
own little episode.
We're going to just dive intothat ourselves.
So, from the black and browngaze, the West could be a place
(10:03):
to start fresh or have thefreedom to be who you'd like to
be or to find your people.
I think the goal of talkingabout media, beyonce and books
is thinking about how Black andBrown people have used the West
to actually liberate themselves,to actually think about freedom
and to actually break downunjust laws.
Adriana Herrera (10:28):
So I mean, I think, just as an aside, I'm
thinking, I've been thinkingabout storytelling with Western
specifically, and thinking abouthow, like we have this season,
we're going to talk aboutBeverly Jenkins and other Black
storytellers, but thinking aboutCowboy Carter and the way she
starts and ends that album it'sabout us, it's acknowledging
(10:55):
we're in a moment where we couldchange things like American
Requiem is, you know, written byJohn Batiste, arguably probably
the most brilliant musicianalive right now in America,
probably the most brilliantmusician Alive right now in
America, and Somebody as well.
Yeah, and ends also looking to.
I know we've been through a lotand so I think that is A
(11:19):
perfect, kind of like Way tothink about how the Black
Western Oper, western, operates.
It's looking to us as a momentof possible change and then and
again being about how we've madeout how, how we are, how the we
is, how the us is thecollective yes, and it speaks to
(11:40):
.
Nikki Payne (11:41):
What kind of person would you have to be to brave
that space, to brave thatterritory?
Who would go into the unknownand try to conquer it?
Which is where setting comes in.
Adriana Herrera (11:54):
What is it in the setting itself that makes
the Western a particular kind ofstory?
Nikki Payne (12:01):
The setting itself begets the story.
The wide expanse, blue skies,skies, nothing as far as the eye
can see.
You have to be a certain typeof person to try to throw
yourself into that so stay withus, because we're just getting
started.
Adriana Herrera (12:16):
The myths are unraveling y'all, and what we
find beneath might just changeeverything hey y'all.
Nikki Payne (12:25):
Welcome back to Unbound, the romance podcast
where we're saving a horse andriding a cowboy into the West.
I'm Nikki Payne and today I'msuper excited to introduce our
very first guest, someone youmight have seen on shows like
the Today Show or featured inliterary havens like Lit Hub.
She's the brilliant mind behindsome of the most engaging
bookish content out there.
(12:46):
Satoria Ray is everything y'all.
She's a bookish content creatorwho reads across genre and
identity.
Her content focuses primarilyon that intersection of reading
and liberation.
When she's not reading, however, she can be found exploring all
of NYC and complaining aboutgrad school which, sis, I still
do.
Okay, sat sis, we've beenwatching you.
(13:10):
We've been watching you, baby,and we saw you recently pick up
a Beverly Jenkins Western.
Adriana Herrera (13:20):
Yes.
Nikki Payne (13:28):
Can you tell us a little bit about like what was
your?
What did you think of Westernsbefore you picked up a Beverly
Jenkins?
Like what was in your head whenyou're just like oh, I'm going
to read a cowboy romance?
Adriana Herrera (13:34):
Like in historicals and.
Satoria Ray (13:36):
Westerns, yeah, okay.
So here's the thing I alwayssaid I was not a historical
romance person.
I liked historical fiction,like I love Sadiqa Johnson, but
I was not really into historicalromance.
And I think it was because I'mlike a history teacher, history
educator, and so, for me, likehistorical romance, it just
(13:59):
never was something I wasnaturally drawn to.
I was always drawn tohistorical fiction and so I had
never read any historicalromance or had any intention of
reading historical romance, likeit just was not something that
was calling to me, but it wasfor the diverse baseline
challenge.
(14:19):
There was a prompt to read ahistorical romance and I was
like, okay, what am I going toread?
Like I don't, you know, I don'tknow anything about historical
romance.
My mutual, sometimes Robin Reed, loves Beverly Jenkins and I
was like, okay, robin has neversteered me wrong, so I'm going
(14:39):
to pick up a Beverly Jenkins.
I had no idea what to expect.
I was like this is going tojust be, you know, a historical
take.
There's not going to be any sex, there's not going to be any
spice, like I, I didn't eventhat, didn't even cross my mind
that that existed in the genre.
Adriana Herrera (14:58):
My back is weeping.
My back is weeping.
Satoria Ray (15:02):
No, I, and maybe that's why I didn't pick it up,
to be honest, maybe, likesubconsciously, I was like I
need a little bit of spice andin my mind, because in history
as a historian, like we don'ttalk about sex, right, that
happened in history.
Like that's not.
My background is in like thecivil rights movement and like
Black history.
Like you're not thinking aboutsex when you think about the
(15:24):
civil rights movement and likeblack history.
Like you're not thinking aboutsex when you think about the
civil rights movement.
And so in my mind, myorientation to like historical
romance was something that wasvery like asexual and just like
very in tune to the history part.
And maybe romance was thesubplot.
I picked up beverly jenkins andwas like I've entered a new
portal.
I was like on the page Explicit, she said on the page Little
(15:50):
queen.
I was like I was like Beverlyyeah, I've seen my aunties
reading this.
And then I was looking at themlike okay, what are we?
But it was just like a wholenew world because one.
It was like this beautifulcombination of history that was
very well researched, like youcould tell that she really cared
(16:11):
about being accurate with thehistory that she was telling,
but also like the romance was sostrong in it that it was like
so forward that the history wasalmost the subplot, and this
like beautiful way that I thinkonly, like certain authors, can
really manage the balance of notlike doom and gloom Cause it
(16:32):
could get doom and gloom veryquickly If you think about the
historical settings that she'swriting about, but the balance
of romance and with, like, thehistory, the history that she's
writing about, was just soimmaculate.
I was like I like this and nowI want to read more historical
romance because I think that thecombination of the two, when
(16:54):
done right, is just like chef'skiss, perfect, agree agree, I
mean.
Adriana Herrera (16:58):
I think I mean as a person that writes
historical right and writeshistorical with Black women or
Black Latinas, I think part ofwhere, like the superpower, I
think of historical romance fromthe Black and Brown gaze
specifically, is that, again,because we are coming from that
lens of, like, the historyyou've served us it's not the
history that we know is thereand we can deliver it with a
(17:22):
happy ending, so that you knowthat you're safe in this space
of learning about who we were inthe past.
And we're gonna give it to youwith a little spice, yeah a
little, it was forbidden thatyou read.
Satoria Ray (17:37):
I've read, yes, I've read forbidden and I've
read indigo I mean, come on likelisten.
Adriana Herrera (17:42):
This man draped an entire carriage in blue
velvet for her.
Maybe, Like I mean it's Ryancrossed the collar line for this
woman, like literally gave uphis personhood legally and then
but it's also shrouded in thisspace of like, love is worth it
(18:03):
and we were thriving and, likeyou know, people of color in our
history in our context, in oursettings, still got to thrive
Like I mean I think I rememberit's great.
Yeah, I remember talking to likea historian after I, after she
read Caribbean heiress, andshe's like a Latin American
studies scholar and she was likeI American studies scholar and
(18:27):
she was like I think people likeI think there's something to
this of being able to deliverhistory about people of color
through romance, cause she'slike I've been shouting about
how, like people in theCaribbean were like doing things
and were like in places andstudying and and no, she's like
I've been talking about it for30 years and I don't.
I don't think I've gottenthrough anyone but I.
But I think this idea ofdelivering history through
(18:51):
romance is is something, andbeverly jenkins has known that
since 1994.
Nikki Payne (18:57):
Well, let me tell you something.
Caribbean heiress delivered meokay somewhere.
Adriana Herrera (19:04):
Okay, very personal, emotional, it made me
feel something in my, in my bodyit's historically accurate that
somebody got did some fingerbanging on the eiffel tower in
1880 and why do they be our?
Nikki Payne (19:22):
heroes and heroines right.
Satoria Ray (19:23):
No, for real.
And that's what I love abouthistorical romance, because, as
a historian, like to be honest,especially a historian of, like,
marginalized people's historynobody wants to hear about.
Like the things that we weredoing it's not attractive.
Like even when you're writingpapers and things like that,
they're like is this accurate?
And you're like, yeah, peoplehad joy.
(19:44):
Like that's, that's how we'rehere today.
Like you know, like peoplewouldn't exist without joy,
people wouldn't exist withoutromance.
The fact that we have historicalromance writers is a testament
to the joy and love that ourancestors had to sustain our
lineage for this long.
And so it's like there was love, there was romance, there were
(20:04):
all of these great thingshappening.
But when you typically havehistory coming from like a very
white supremacist lens, that joygets regulated to the margins.
And that's the power ofhistorical romance written by
marginalized people is that theypull out our stories from the
margins and they center them.
And when you have people whoare marginalized writing about
(20:25):
their ancestors and theirhistory, they can include the
joy because they know that theirtarget audience isn't white
people, right, so they know thatwe want to read about our
ancestors being loved and beingromanced and having the cart
draped out, and if a whiteperson picks up the book, great
and you enjoy it, great.
But at the end of the day, likethis is for us and by us, and I
(20:49):
think you just get a completelydifferent story.
That's the same history, butyou turn the head on who's
telling it and it opens up thedoors to just so much more
nuance and depth.
And I think that that's what Ilove the most about historical
romance is it says that like yes, slavery was happening.
And I think that that's what Ilove the most about historical
romance is it says that like yes, slavery was happening, and
also, at the same time, this ishow our people resisted, and
(21:11):
love is like one of the mostpowerful forms of resistance.
And so I just love historicalromance in that way, because I
think it really challengesdominant narratives of history
that we've been fed to,especially us who went to school
in the United States.
Right, we've been fed a verysingular viewpoint of history,
and when you pick up ahistorical romance, you're like
(21:32):
wait a minute, this is like thisis historically accurate, Like
this makes sense, like this,this makes a lot of sense, and
so I just think that that's oneof the powerful parts about it
and like the second book after ACaribbean Harris.
Right, you have two women whoare your love interests in
history.
Like I would have to, likescrounge my history textbooks
(21:55):
from my grad school and academiato find those stories.
And here it's like front andcenter and I don't have to look,
you know, into thousands andthousands of pages to try to
pull out queer histories.
Adriana Herrera (22:08):
And that's another like beautiful part
about being able to havehistorical romance writers is
that these stories exist andthey're saying, like these
stories exist and here they arefor you, yeah, I mean I
completely, and I mean I thinkeven for us right as like a
larger diaspora, is so importantto be able to read about each
other's experiences and see thethreads and like see how we were
(22:32):
all able, in our own spaces andin our own systems of
oppression, to thrive and liveand like connect with each other
in like these spaces thatweren't like made for us but we
like we found our way to.
Like I love thinking aboutplaces like New York City in
like the late 1800s, where, likethere were Cubans and there
(22:54):
were Dominicans and there werePuerto Ricans making music
together.
Or Paris, where there werepeople of color studying because
they could go to university,and to me, like thinking of like
how our diaspora has alwayslike found its way to each other
.
I think it's also like part ofthe power of historical romance,
(23:15):
of like us seeing ourselveslike mobility spaces and, yeah,
sharing music, knowledge, yeah.
Satoria Ray (23:25):
Because we were just all dropped at different
places, right, Like so we areall connected.
It was just like you gotdropped off here, I got dropped
off here, but we all came fromthe same place.
And so I think that that's liketo your point, like really
beautiful, and again, like thatis another form of resistance,
because white supremacy wantsthe diaspora to be in these like
(23:46):
silos.
But when you're able to connectthe threads, that like actually
we're all right, stemming fromthe same lineage, it just
manifests in these differentways because of where we were
literally dropped off.
Like I think again that'sanother thing that I'm really
excited to explore as I readmore historical romance is being
able to connect and seedifferent histories that I
(24:07):
myself am not even aware of.
Nikki Payne (24:11):
That was beautifully stated.
I also clocked that for us byus reference hashtag FUBU 90s
never die.
Yes, fubu, I think is going tohave like a renaissance now with
the beef because, like Kendrickis bringing it back loops into
(24:38):
this notion of like the way thatwe historically define
blackness and the way that weare like attempting to determine
and like engage with thediaspora about who is in the
community and who is not, andwe're actually having sometimes
damaging but sometimes reallyfruitful conversations right now
about what it actually means tobe politically Black versus
Black in your you know, like ofAfrican descent in your body
(25:01):
Right, and people are teasingthat out now, I think, because
of the devastating you know.
Satoria Ray (25:09):
No, that's Nikki.
Now my mind is like this is awhole thesis right here.
Nikki Payne (25:14):
I mean we don't have to get into this because
we're talking about the West,but in my defense, california is
the West.
Adriana Herrera (25:22):
In your defense .
California is the West.
It's been an interesting timeto observe, right, like I
personally, because I didn'tgrow up here.
I came here when I was 23.
And I've always loved hip hop.
But I feel like I mean someonewas saying, like this is a
conversation for people that,like, were born and raised in
the U?
S, right, and I don't disagree,like I'm very invested in it
(25:44):
because I love Kendrick Um andDrake is Drake, and so, like
I've been like observing it.
But I don't disagree that thereare there are contexts, right,
where, like, we have threads,but there are conversations like
it's why I never, why I chose,why I choose to write historical
romance that's set not in theUS, because it's in, in ways,
(26:09):
it's not necessarily my story totell, right, like I think it's,
and I think it's important forme to tell the story of, of
Dominican people, and Dominicanpeople have been in the U?
S but, like, primarily, we havebeen in other places and and
and in the Caribbean, right, soI think it's like that's been
interesting to me to see howmuch people feel like really
(26:31):
convicted when they're told likethey like you need to like sit
back and observe and I'm like'mlike I'm like riveted, but like
I'm sad, you know yeah.
Satoria Ray (26:45):
No, there are certain like even just in
cultural nuances, like there arecertain things that like I just
wouldn't understand if I didn'tgrow up in certain places.
There's certain phrases,there's certain contexts,
there's certain like uniquehistories that you get from
growing up in a place.
So I'm like yeah, I feel like Idon't disagree with that either
Like to get into the reallynitty gritty of like Drake
(27:05):
versus Kendrick, like you wouldhave to have some sort of Black
American context to reallyunderstand, like the arguments
that both sides are making yeahI agree.
Adriana Herrera (27:17):
Yeah, I mean, it's fascinating, it's very
fascinating.
Nikki Payne (27:21):
My, my feet is very riveting right now yeah, it's
saying I wish I could like seawalk, you know, because all
these videos I'm seeing people.
Just, you know it's in me, okay, oh my God.
Adriana Herrera (27:41):
To that point.
Nikki Payne (27:42):
It is like human nature just to be like a
anthropologist for a second tobuild boundaries around
community, particularly forresources, to say, like that
very important phrase they'renot like us, he's not like us.
Right, it's a way to signal,like these are the boundaries of
this community and and the waythat I'm rapping and the way
(28:10):
that I'm seeing the world is arebased on these very important
boundaries.
This is all about, like, whenwe're talking about reinventing
the West and why Beverly Jenkinsrivets us in ways that other
Western stories don't, it'sbecause she is also setting up
this boundary to look at theWest through these different
eyes, right, like she'sliterally she's in her Lamar
phase, like they, not like us.
I'm going to, I'm going to showyou exactly right.
(28:33):
I'm going to show you exactlyright, I'm going to show you
exactly of what this worldreally was.
I'm going to give you thecontext from my point of view
and I think that's like that'salso really powerful and
important to be able to do in aromance, in a historical aspect,
to say you have told this storyof the West and people have
eaten it up, but now I can tellthis exact same story from my
(28:55):
lens and it becomes a completelydifferent story because you
don't have this, this backpack,you don't have this experience
that I have, and it makes thestory that I tell different.
Satoria Ray (29:05):
Yeah, you know what this is reminiscent of.
It's reminiscent of what Beyoncenow, since we're talking about,
since we're talking about ourpeople, it's reminiscent of what
Beyonce did with Lemonade.
Since we're talking about ourpeople, it's reminiscent of what
Beyonce did with Lemonade, likethere is a huge scholarship
around Beyonce with Lemonade andbasically taking a history
that's been again told throughthe lens of whiteness and being
(29:25):
like, no, like, I'm not doingthat, this is my story now.
She's like walking on theplantation knocking over chairs,
like she's doing this wholereclamation of a history that's
historically not been told byblack people.
And in lemonade, like, and thevisuals of lemonade,
specifically, really thinkingabout this reclamation of a
(29:46):
history, and a lot of thescholarship talks about how you
have to, like, reject the gazeof whiteness to do that.
And I think that that's whatBeverly Jenkins and a lot of
marginalized authors who writehistorical romance have done,
and that is why they're able toset these boundaries and tell
such a unique story is becausethey specifically know who
(30:09):
they're talking to and they'renot concerned with, like, the
other perspective.
They're like, you already gotthat.
Nikki Payne (30:15):
Like that's in your history textbooks, that's
everywhere.
Satoria Ray (30:18):
Go there Like I'm here to tell this story and this
is the story and you're notgoing to get any other
perspective, and I think thatthat's what makes it so powerful
and that's when you can getinto, like, the reinvention or
the reclamation, when you fullyreject the idea of like the
white gaze on your story andyou're able to just tell the
(30:38):
story from your perspective andfrom your people's lens.
I think that that's anotherbeauty of like beyonce's
lemonade, which I'm a fan of,but also like beverly jenkins
work as well yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nikki Payne (30:50):
No, I agree, you just reminded me of the visuals
of uh, lemonade and I wouldreally very much call it
plantation chic, like when youlike the visuals, like the, the
black women in white cotton,like on the trees, like it is
absolutely yeah, yeah, and she'staking a plantation that like
usually people like I don't stayaway and she's like, no, we're
(31:15):
going.
Satoria Ray (31:15):
She's literally sitting in that yellow dress on
the plantation, like she's on athrone and she's like really
reclaiming this sort of and it'sjust beautiful and it's like
and I think that that's likeanother like confrontation with
history to say that like thestory you've been telling isn't
necessarily the story.
(31:36):
That's true, and I'm not goingto allow you to continue to tell
a story that is not rooted inthe beauty of my people, the
love of my people, and so, likeI'm going to walk into the
plantation, knock all of thisdown and like recreate the
narrative that had alwaysexisted, like she's not making
things up, this had always beenwhat was happening.
(31:57):
Same with Beverly Jenkins andthe stories that she's telling.
That this isn't a reach to saythat what's happening in Beverly
Jenkins stories happened inhistory.
It's just not recorded in anytextbook, and so I think that
that's like another beautifulthing about sort of this
reinvention of the West, as youcall it.
Nikki Payne (32:16):
I mean honestly to that point as a as a Houston
girly growing up with rodeoculture as just just in your
veins and having Beyonce do thisalbum that celebrates the
experience of any of these, likethe Southern rural Black
experience, to say like, hey, wewere cowboys, we were rodeo
(32:37):
queens, we are like all of thesethings.
Adriana Herrera (32:39):
Like anyone in houston could understand that,
that someone like that couldmake a rodeo album easily,
because it's very much who, whowe are yeah, and I think with I
mean beyonce is an interestingone, right, because I think and
for all of us, right I I thinkI've thought about this quite a
lot since Cowboy Carter I meanBeyonce's like my everything,
(33:00):
like she really is like theartist of my life.
I mean I could talk about herforever, but like in English,
like I have that in Spanish, Ihave people in Spanish that I
feel about that, but like she islike the artist of my life in
English, like the artist of mylife in English, and in her
trajectory you can see her likereally turning her back on the
influence of pleasing, like awhite gaze and a white palette
(33:23):
and just really really honing inon like her own humanity as a
Black woman.
Like do you remember that SNLskit right after Lemonade came
out, when people were likebeyonce is black and they were
like running around and likebuildings were burning or
whatever?
Yes, and I, I like it was funny, but also like like you can
(33:48):
sense her like kind of like kindof shedding right, like that,
like that the need to kind ofaccommodate.
Yeah, and I think for us whocome into romance, I've been
reading romance since I was like12 years old, I'm in my mid-40s
and really loving it, likereally thinking of romance as
(34:09):
like a space where I really comefor comfort and then as a
having to really kind of takethe like intentionally turning
away from it from like that needto accommodate what romance as
a genre has been which is sosteeped in whiteness, and really
(34:30):
go to like no, I can't.
I have to, really, if this isgoing to be what I came to do,
which is to represent thisexperience that I have, and
really like affirm that wedeserve love, that we get it,
that we have it, that we'vealways had it, you have to
really do it intentionally andlike it really, and once you do,
(34:51):
then you have to like, do itlike in this almost like
container of like whiteness isnot going to touch this because
if it does, then it loses theeffect almost, yeah, like.
I feel like every Beyonce albumgets blacker or more like for
the future, since, likeself-titled.
(35:14):
Yeah since like self-titled yeahand and and, like when artists
like when you have that gazelike I think it just, it's just
so noticeable, like yeah, butreading Beverly Jenkins, like
the reading.
I don't know.
Alexandria House is likeanother author that I always
think about when I'm thinking ofsomeone who is writing just so
in the pocket of who is of herreader.
(35:37):
That, like you know, y'all cancome and enjoy, but this is for
a very specific person andcommunity black hockey players
like come on, I know and haveyou read her latest one?
it's like, uh, it's like it's awhite rapper, she's.
She's not black white rapper,she's an albino.
Oh yeah, and he is.
(35:59):
And she has like a tiger for apet.
I mean, it's just.
Oh my gosh, that's incredible,and like Wesley Shielman, like
does the raps and the.
Anyway, it's so great In theaudio book.
Yeah, it's so great, it's sogreat In the audio book.
Yeah, it's so great.
It's so great Again.
Like I just think that thereare people who have like that
(36:20):
they're so clear on what, whothe valued reader is, and it
just comes through in the pagelike so clearly yeah, yeah.
Nikki Payne (36:32):
Y'all, this guy Are we being.
Adriana Herrera (36:39):
Are we like thinking about?
Nikki Payne (36:41):
stuff when we're like reading and writing.
Yeah, no, this is the thing isand I don't mean this to shade,
like like anyone, but like to tosometimes even to have to think
about this, about historicityand about positionality and
perspective.
Even that is this burden onyour writing, is this weight on
(37:04):
your writing that not everyone?
People just don't have to thinkabout it.
Someone can just open a bakeryand fall in love with the cranky
next door person at the at theshop, and then that's the whole
story and it can become abestseller and they are the
recreational billionaire.
(37:27):
Yeah, that's that becomes likeeven that work, that burden,
that knowledge becomes somethingthat we have to carry into our
work and then like and sometimeswhen you see people not
carrying it, you know there'sthis sense of like, what are you
?
You know, what are we doinghere?
Like, what are we?
Do you mean to tell me we don'thave to do this?
(37:48):
But yeah, like not to get intolike specifics.
But you see, but yeah, like notto get into like specifics.
But you see, you see, whenpeople have carried the load or
have done the work and are doingthe thing, you know, yes, yeah,
Because it's important, right,Like you always, like I remember
when I was thinking I've knownMs Bev for a long time.
Adriana Herrera (38:11):
I've known Ms Bev for about seven, eight years
and I remember having aconversation with her, like when
RWA used to exist, that Iwanted to write a historical and
I was like this is what Iwanted to do.
But, like you know, at thatpoint they really wouldn't buy
historicals by people of colorIf the main characters were
people of color.
Like it's just not a market forit.
(38:33):
And the first thing she told mewas you better have your
references, you better have yoursources.
Like you had to have thatbibliography at the end of the
book, because the first thingthey're going to tell you is
that none of this reallyhappened and this was like I
want to say 2017, 2018, this wasa while
ago.
And, um, because like she's Imean again like it's it's a
(38:57):
woman that's been doing amazingwork and she knows it comes at a
cost to her.
Like she, she's.
She's so good that if she, shecould have made other choices
and perhaps, like you know, beenJulia Quinn, but she chose not
to be.
She chose to like write thehistory that she felt was
important.
But even knowing like this isnot going to be easy, like you
(39:18):
know, like you're choosing,you're choosing a road that's
going to be hard because peopleare going to question you a lot
a bibliography like she's.
Satoria Ray (39:27):
Like she's a historian and a romance writer,
like that.
But I'm just like does isanyone else having to bring a
bibliography?
No, because we've just acceptedthat.
Like yeah, that happened.
Like that.
But I'm just like does isanyone else having to bring a
bibliography?
No, because we've just acceptedthat.
Like yeah, that happened.
Adriana Herrera (39:39):
Like that sounds yeah yeah so many guys
that turn out to be, you know,marrying a dude, like so many
governesses, yeah, so I mean, Ithink it is.
That is like, again, like it'sit's not easy, but again, like
we know how important it is forus for readers to be able to
(40:02):
pick up a book and see what, allthe things that we've done, we
didn't just hatch in 1984.
Nikki Payne (40:13):
Yeah we're here, okay, set Like we're.
We're about to wrap, wrap up,but I have two more questions
for you, okay, okay.
The first question is when youthink of a cowboy, when a cowboy
okay, a cow hand, a cow personlike erupts into your mind, what
(40:33):
do you see?
You?
Satoria Ray (40:35):
You know you said that and the first thing I said
was the first thing that came tomy mind was Rebecca
Witherspoon's cover.
Nikki Payne (40:41):
to be honest, Rebecca's done the work.
Satoria Ray (40:46):
Like, but also like I grew up in the country, so
like my orientation to likecowboys has always been Black
people because I grew up aroundblack country cowboys and so
it's always been for me likeyeah, my uncle, you know, like
someone with a cowboy boots anda hat on, like out here, you
(41:07):
know, in the yard.
But when you said that, Iliterally picture the specific
one.
I think it's like a thorn inthe saddle.
It just like it came to my mindand I was like that's a cowboy,
it's such a great cover too.
Adriana Herrera (41:21):
That's the one where he's got the yeah.
Nikki Payne (41:24):
Yeah, okay, first of all, I love that that book is
in like the black imaginary asa cowboy.
Yeah and yeah.
And also Beverly Jenkins wantsto know if your uncle has a
mustache no, he has a beardthough, okay, okay okay, yes
(41:46):
we'll report back okay, yeah,let her know.
Satoria Ray (41:50):
Did he pass like pass or fail?
Nikki Payne (41:55):
okay, second question and we can wrap up on
this.
But what was the first thing,the first concert that you spent
your money on, like, where didyou go?
Satoria Ray (42:12):
that I spent my money on?
Oh my god, that's difficult.
Um, where did you go that Ispent my money on?
Yeah, oh my God, that'sdifficult.
I think the first concert thatI spent my money on was SZA Okay
, okay, okay, and it was like,and it was a meet and greet, I
(42:32):
remember, because I was like I'mdoing big things.
I was in college.
I was like it was $25.
But I was like I'm doing bigthings.
Like I was in college.
I was like it was it was $25,but I was like I'm doing big
things, like I'm affording thislike meet and greet, what says
it was literally $25.
This was like before she gotreally big.
It was like in my like the citythat's near my hometown, so it
was in Greensboro, northCarolina.
It was in this like tiny venuethat didn't even have
(42:54):
functioning AC, so people werelike passing out literally the
entire show.
She's like singing and stoppingand being like get them some
water, get some water.
Like it was a mess, but I thinkthat that was my the first one
that I paid for, because Ivividly remember like I bought a
new outfit for it, like it wasa whole ordeal, and then I got
(43:17):
to meet her.
Adriana Herrera (43:18):
Okay, that's iconic actually.
Satoria Ray (43:19):
Yeah.
Adriana Herrera (43:20):
Like she is, such a great artist she is,
she's amazing To be in the earlypeople to recognize her genius.
Satoria Ray (43:29):
No, she's good, I love her.
That's because I spent I wasraised on Tumblr and they loved
her on Tumblr, so I very quicklywas like oh, sza, that's my
girl, that's a good one.
Adriana Herrera (43:39):
I love that one .
Nikki Payne (43:41):
Me too.
We're collecting an archive.
We hope to ask you, knoweveryone, this very interesting
question.
We think that the type of mediathat you choose, that you kind
of go out and use your resourcesto like, experience, live or
experience, it just says so muchabout, like, the type of um,
sometimes, the type of readerthat you are, that the way that
(44:01):
you consume media, the way thatyou see the world, and we just
love asking that um question toto everyone your curiosity.
Adriana Herrera (44:09):
Yeah, recognition of brilliance no,
it's a great question yes, yes.
Nikki Payne (44:15):
Tell the world that you were just like.
Satoria Ray (44:16):
Sorry, I was first I almost passed out, but like
listen, that's a great story.
Adriana Herrera (44:22):
I would get him some water oh my gosh.
Nikki Payne (44:28):
All right, seth.
Thank you so much um this wasfantastic this was compelling.
This was everything that weknew it would be thank you, yeah
, yeah, y'all were great.
Satoria Ray (44:38):
Thank you for having me.
Nikki Payne (44:39):
Awesome, this was great okay, now, if people want
more of your hot takes and moretea and more information, where
can they find you?
Satoria Ray (44:47):
so I am on tiktok at sat ray reads um, but follow
me there and then instagram,because y'all know tiktok is up
in the air right now.
So on on Instagram atSatRayReads, and then in the
bios of both of those accounts Ihave links where you can add me
on Substack and I like fleshout a lot of the thoughts and
things that I share on Instagramthere.
Nikki Payne (45:07):
Do you want to talk about your auction?
Satoria Ray (45:08):
Yes, oh, yes, okay.
So we, my friends and I, arecurrently hosting a Gaza book
evacuation auction to raise asmuch funds as we can to help
Palestinians in Gaza who aretrying to escape to safety with
their loved ones.
It'll be going until May 12th.
You can find us on Instagram atGaza book auction that account.
(45:35):
There's links to the auctionwhere you can see a lot of
wonderful items that have beendonated from authors, content
creators, industry professionals, artists, so on and so forth,
but there's also the link toGoFundMes for different
Palestinians.
So if you can't find anythingto bid on or you just like to
donate, we have a bunch ofGoFundMes that you can donate to
as well.
Nikki Payne (45:53):
Thank you so much.
Satoria Ray (45:54):
Of course, thank you.
Adriana Herrera (46:00):
So the setting itself is part of the story.
The stage of the Western isthis untamed wilderness, the
endless possibility of the West,the black canvas that you can
reinvent like literally milesand miles and miles of nothing
that you can shape into whateveryou want to be or whatever you
(46:26):
need it to be, just the thoughtof someone that would see all
this vastness and think there'spossibility here.
It is a very particular kind ofperson.
Nikki Payne (46:41):
And that's why it's so effective on film.
It's a great stage to start astory, to start any type of
narrative.
Adriana Herrera (46:49):
And it's romantic.
It requires a passionatecharacter, someone with
conviction, with vision, to makeit in the West.
Only the best, the strongest,the most persistent can survive,
the tenacious can survive andthrive in the West.
How do you do it withoutengaging with the dangers of
(47:14):
such like treacherous territory?
The Western from the white gazeis so much about the stress and
seeing everything that isalready there as the enemy uh,
oh, everything that's alreadythere.
Nikki Payne (47:27):
Uh, who's already there?
Uh, the indigenous population.
So is the western tropeinherently genocidal?
Adriana Herrera (47:37):
I mean it depends, yeah, it depends.
So, like red river and buck ofthe preacher, for instance.
These two movies, one from 1948, starting John Way and
Montgomery Clift one of myfavorite old-timey Hollywood
gays and the other from 1972,starting Sidney Pottier and
(48:00):
Harry Rilafanti On the face ofit, these two movies are
basically about the same thing.
It is about two men leading acaravan of families to the West,
hopefully to safety and abetter life.
Except that in Red River, johnWayne's character turns
(48:21):
tyrannical and sees everyoneoutside of their party as the
enemy.
Literally from the first fewminutes it's established that
the, the Native Americans whoare already living on that land,
are hostile killers.
And then he eventually becomesterrifying.
And the character of MontgomeryClift, who's like his mentee,
(48:42):
is terrified of him and atdifferent points has to consider
whether he has to kill himBecause it becomes so dangerous.
And Buck and the Pre?
Um it like is completelydifferent.
It's with two leads who are,for all intents and purposes,
morally gray characters.
The story is completelydifferent.
(49:03):
It's set after the civil warand buck, who is a wagon master,
is taking Black families fromLouisiana to Kansas to safety,
because Louisiana has become sodangerous for Black people, who
are now free but are now beingterrorized, killed by white
raiders on the way west.
(49:24):
Instead of seeing the NativeAmericans as their enemies, buck
and Preacher actually hook upwith the Native Americans there
(49:45):
and they get permission to huntbuffalo to be able to eat and
they are able to go west.
Right, they are able to make itwest by, instead of becoming
hostile against Native Americans, they ally themselves with them
.
They end up robbing a couple ofbanks in order to get money to
(50:07):
get west.
So they do a little crime asone does.
They do a little crime as onedoes.
They do do a little crime, butin the end the safety of the
caravan is the most importantthing, as opposed to john
wayne's story, where he becomesthe one that terrorizes the
(50:27):
people he's supposed to get tosafety.
So, on the face of it, verysimilar stories, and yet the
gaze of these stories and thevalue system of these stories
and the protagonist of thesestories are completely different
.
Nikki Payne (50:46):
Okay, this?
This leads us directly intocharacter In Buckingham,
Preacher and Red River.
The same archetypes develop andflourish into completely
different types of people.
What happens when the Westerncharacters are people of color?
Adriana Herrera (51:03):
Well, we kind of have to go into what are the
archetypes of the Western of thewestern.
Nikki Payne (51:13):
Okay, the anthropologist in me wants to
start with folklore.
Think of paul bunyan and hisaxe and those picos bill types,
the epic heroes of the west.
These are the folks that builtour legend paul bunyan with his
axe and that bull babesupposedly carved out the grand
canyon when picos bill rode amountain lion with barbed wire
reins.
And there was that dude hisname escapes me right now that
(51:34):
tied up twisters in a knot.
These heroes were larger thanlife but, most importantly, they
had to conquer the land throughforce and power.
These are the heroes of theWest.
Adriana Herrera (51:48):
I mean, as an aside, the whole barbed wire
thing is a little problematic,pecos Of course but also almost
makes you think of this as likean American pantheon.
Like does the American part ofthe American pantheon come from?
The figures, these folklorefigures of the West?
Nikki Payne (52:10):
Absolutely.
First of all, yes, Pico's billis canceled.
Obviously you cannot do that,Not today, not in this economy.
But then there are these moretraditional heroes of the West
right the settler, the outlaw,the cowboy, the stranger who
walks into town to make troubleor to solve the trouble brewing.
Adriana Herrera (52:31):
And women also.
The women of the west also havevery particular archetypes.
We have the homesteader, thelady you know that's standing
there, her skirt flowing in thewind, looking at her man going,
you know, to wrangle cattle, andyou have the runaway.
So just show up with like analias and no hit, no backstory.
(52:52):
And then you have your womanwho are running the local
brothel, the entertainment, soto speak.
Nikki Payne (53:02):
Did you just mention brothel?
I think this is where theromance starts.
Adriana Herrera (53:06):
This might be where the romance starts.
Yes, yes, you're correct.
Nikki Payne (53:11):
Yeah, this is where we edge you.
We edge you on the romance.
No, sorry.
Adriana Herrera (53:17):
This is where we edge the romance talk.
Nikki Payne (53:24):
But seriously, cowboy romance as a subgenre
illustrates that different gazemakes a difference when it comes
to themes, characterizationsand how HEAs are envisioned.
Adriana Herrera (53:38):
Yeah, I mean, I think part of how we even came
up with the theme of the Western, as our first season was from
my going back to reread a bunchof 90 romances and I was reading
you know Elizabeth Lowell has aseries that I really loved back
in the 90s and I revisitedafter a long time and I was
(54:00):
reading at the same time I wasreading beverly jenkins um
westerns and I just noticed,like the very stark differences
in how the storytelling happenedand the characterization and
the plot points and just how,despite them being thematically
(54:21):
very similar and havingarchetypes that were very, very
similar and overlapping, thestorytelling was so different.
Nikki Payne (54:30):
So different.
I mean, we can take one themeand pull it apart.
Now, when we think about thelaw, right, we can think about
characters like we mentionedwalking into town, and they are
there.
Oftentimes, white charactersare there to establish law or to
reestablish order, and theyhave done their good deed by
leaving a town that is now in abetter position than they had,
(54:54):
are, you know, ostensibly betterposition than they started.
And that is how we know thatthat character in a white story,
in a white romance, has done agood thing safe, the woman is
(55:15):
now safe, and they'veestablished this order and
consistency and deliberate, um,like management of the
environment.
And that's how we know oh, thisis a happily ever after, like
now they're able to settle andthey're able to, like, live on
this land because of the braveryand and conventions of that
hero so then, what happens whenwe get people that are outside
the law established by white men?
Adriana Herrera (55:32):
and that is where beverly jenkins literally
wrote the book.
Literally wrote the bookbecause she literally she has
written about train robbers,fugitive, bounty hunters,
buffalo soldiers, men navigatinga west parallel to the one that
most of us envision.
(55:53):
When we think about the West,we think about a John Wayne, and
Beverly Jenkins has literally acatalog of Westerns that are
about men who are literallytrying to operate and thrive and
live in a system that they haveto build for themselves, which,
in a lot of ways, exists in thegrays.
Nikki Payne (56:17):
The trickster figure.
Adriana Herrera (56:19):
Yeah, and it really comes from that idea of
point of view.
Right, it's that quote fromAlviso Campos, who's a Puerto
Rican liberator, says Cuando latiranía es ley, la revolución
Like.
It's that quote from AlvisoCampos, who's a Puerto Rican
liberator, says Cuando latiranía es ley, la revolución es
orden, which I'm going to justregurgitate this in English,
(56:39):
which I never usually do in myown books, but it's when tyranny
is law, revolution is order.
And so the point of view ofsomeone writing the Western
allows for much more dynamic andcomplex world building.
Where you're kind of comingfrom the place of law and order
(57:00):
isn't necessarily the answer foreveryone and it doesn't
necessarily encapsulate a happy,happy ever after for everyone.
Nikki Payne (57:08):
So the West is about power resistance renewal.
How does that look when thecharacter is black and brown?
Adriana Herrera (57:15):
Who owns this American story of reinvention?
Beyonce, well, yeah, definitelyher Um but um.
But also we all do Um.
Why does it matter who tellsthe story?
Because the storyteller shapesthe narrative.
They decide which charactersstand in the spotlight and which
(57:36):
themes resonate through theages.
When Black people and people ofcolor tell the story of the
West, they're just notrecounting tales of cowboys
establishing rule of law ortaming the land.
When we tell our stories, wetake the reins.
We take shifts in the narrativefrom conquest and domination to
(57:58):
one of collectivism, communityand liberation from unjust laws.
Nikki Payne (58:04):
Beautiful.
We hope you can join usbiweekly on Unbound and join our
conversation.
Thanks for riding with us.
Adriana Herrera (58:12):
Your thoughts and stories are the lifeblood of
this exploration, so we inviteyou to engage with us.
Share your insights, yourfavorite moments and the romance
narratives that have touchedyour life.
Find us all on all majorpodcast platforms and follow us
on TikTok, youtube and Instagramfor updates and behind the
scenes contents.
We'll have reading lists, alistening list and a watching
(58:33):
list for you to follow along aswe go west.
Next time, we are diving deepin the Beverly Jenkins oeuvre
and how her stories, deeplysteeped in history and heavily
researched, are the perfectcombination of the myth of the
western and the actual historyof the West.
Where we're all really get intosex in the West with Beverly
(58:55):
Jenkins.
Until next time, keep yourhearts unbound.
In a Western, no outside force can prevent
someone from being whatever theywant to be.
The West is all about untappedpotential and who gets there
first to exploit it.
Nikki Payne (00:13):
It's a big juicy vagina.
Adriana Herrera (00:15):
Welcome to the Unbound podcast, the podcast
that explores the intersectionof pop culture and steamy world
of romance literature.
Join us as we celebrate thevoices and stories often left in
the shadows and unravel thethreads of joy, passion and
heartache that keep us allcoming back to the page on the
screen.
I'm Adriana.
Nikki Payne (00:36):
Herrera and I write romance novels with hot and
horny Latina people and I'mNikki Payne and I write steamy
romance based on the booksyou're forced to read in high
school, and we're about toembark on a journey of the heart
of the American frontier, notas you know it, but as it
actually was.
Welcome to Unbound, a podcastwhere we dive deep into the
(00:58):
unexplored terrains of theromance subgenres through the
BIPOC lens.
We're going to be unearthinghistories and intertwining them
with broader cultural contextsof the time, and each series is
going to focus on a specificsubgenre, unraveling its nuances
and evolution.
Our inaugural series, for whichyou are here now, is how the
West Was Won, and it's a journeythrough the rugged yet romantic
(01:21):
world of cowboy romance.
Adriana Herrera (01:23):
Journey through the rugged yet romantic world
of cowboy romance.
We will also talk about thepioneers like Herb Jeffries, who
made films like Harlem of thePrairie, aimed specifically at
Black audiences in the 1930s,and Pedro Infante, a Mexican
actor who brought vaqueros andrancheras to the
Hispanic-speaking world.
The creation of the frontiermyth and its romanticization in
American culture.
(01:43):
The westernist genre and howits themes are the perfect
landscape for romance.
Nikki Payne (01:51):
Wait, wait, wait, Wait.
Before we get started, here'sthe thing that we need to
acknowledge the queen Adriana,the queen herself, has given our
first season a blessing.
The queen herself has given ourfirst season a blessing.
Adriana Herrera (02:07):
Beyonce's gone west.
Y'all Amen.
And there will be favoritetracks, a lot of conversation,
because Cowboy Carter truly isthe blessing of 2024.
But, for the sake of time,we've got to get back to
business and we will be talkingabout Beyonce's country album,
cowboy Carterter.
Why so many people of colorcall it white people's music?
(02:29):
And we dive into western media,romance novels, of course,
classic films and black postlike quotation films sorry,
english is my second language.
English, motherfucker, do youspeak it?
That complicate our conceptionsof the west.
And lastly, we ask the questionwhat happens when the
perspective shifts?
Doesn't matter who is tellingthe story.
(02:51):
I think it does.
Nikki Payne (02:52):
So let's think of the west as a vagina I have been
saying, adriana, it's a bigjuicy vagina.
Let's picture this vast deserts, towering mountains, endless
skies.
The western genre has painted apicture of the american west
that is ripe for the claiming,ripe for plunder, for
(03:13):
cultivation, for mastery.
Does that sound familiar?
Adriana Herrera (03:17):
well, kind of yeah.
The west as we've been toldthrough dime novels, silver
screen epics, is a story, anarrative that's crafted with as
much care as the moviesthemselves, and while the tales
have captivated audiences forgenerations, they've also woven
a myth, a myth that's oftenexcluded the very people who
(03:39):
shaped the West.
What is Western as genre andwhat is the Western myth in
fiction?
According to John Trudy, theWestern as a genre encapsulates
the essence of all Americanstorytelling.
It's the belief that we canreinvent ourselves at any time,
(03:59):
over and over again.
In a Western, no outside forcecan prevent someone from being
whatever they want to be.
The West is all about untappedpotential and who gets there
first to exploit it.
Vagina, vagina, and so thethemes of the Western are in
many ways the quintessentialhero's journey from the white
(04:22):
male gaze.
I mean comment, like you canjust see john wayne strolling in
with his little like hop thathe had yeah yeah, with his like
little holster, with his gun andthe hat tipped, just so.
yeah, a stranger rolls into townon his horse, finds the town in
(04:43):
turmoil and makes them right.
By the end of the book or show,the Rolling Stone has
established order in a lawlesstown, has cultivated a dry
climate or won the love of awild woman or horse.
Always a horse Always always ahorse.
Nikki Payne (04:59):
There's always a horse to tame Like.
What is that?
Adriana Herrera (05:02):
I mean, do you remember?
I there's.
The horses are as iconic as thecharacters remember silver from
the lone ranger yes, absolutelyso.
I remember mr ed, like that wasa woman about a talking, the
horse was the star, a man on hishorse is a thing that we
probably don't have time toexplore in this season, but it
(05:23):
is a thing so I probably don'thave time to explore in this
season, but it is a thing.
So I mean, yeah, like theWestern is how we show the new
gods of the American frontier.
Nikki Payne (05:33):
And thinking back, like what is your sense of the
Western?
Do you have a memory of seeingBlack people in Westerns?
Adriana Herrera (05:40):
Blazing Saddles comes to mind, classic.
What we start with in theseason is a simple question what
is the West really?
What are the stories we haven'theard, and how do they change
our understanding of what theAmerican West was and is?
Nikki Payne (05:59):
Do you think the Black or Brown Western is a
different story?
Adriana Herrera (06:04):
Yeah.
That's what the season is goingto be adriana.
Nikki Payne (06:08):
You know those comedy shows like comic view.
I used to watch those when Iwas little and the entire cachet
for comic view was like whitepeople do things like this and
black people do things like this.
Isn't that funny?
hilarious oh yeah, it was.
It was what we watched and whatwe continue to watch every
(06:28):
friday for, with these comediansto parse out the differences
between black reactions tomodern events of our time.
But I think in the western wecould actually ask this question
Do brown and black folk dothings, particularly do the West
, differently?
Adriana Herrera (06:47):
I mean, I certainly think so, because in
the end we approach it in acompletely different way,
because so much of ourstorytelling is about the
survival of the community.
We can't survive in isolation.
Riding off into the sunset on ahorse on our own is not viable
for us, because what are wegoing to find in the great
(07:08):
unknown?
Um, so community survival,liberation for us all, is the
ultimate goal, not law and order.
So the the very idea of thewestern from the white gaze,
where it's like re-establishingorder is the end goal, just
fundamentally doesn't work forpeople of color okay, this is a
(07:30):
perfect time to finally talkabout beyonce.
Nikki Payne (07:33):
When we talk about just going into a genre and
busting it up, right, country isall about order.
It's all about who gets play onthe radio.
It's all about does this soundlike country?
Where is this person from?
Does this fit into the genre?
And for Beyonce to come in withher elbows ablaze saying this
(07:53):
is a Beyonce album, right, andthis is the genre, she's
literally doing the thing thatwe say black folks do, right Is
destabilizing the particular lawand order of the genre.
So she's the queen from houstonand she stepped into the
spotlight with this huge countryalbum and it's already
redefined what country music is.
(08:15):
So she's already done the job.
Right, like quote from beyonce.
You know, you that bitch, whenyou cause all this conversation.
So she's already done it okay,but like.
But again, this was a hugecontroversy like this raised
outright.
This raised eyebrows when shefirst um performed with the
dixie chicks.
And the outright exclusion ofblack artists face in the
(08:39):
country music scene is alsosomething that beyonce, you know
, trying to shed a light on.
You guys remember.
I don't know if you guysremember that CMA performance
when she went on stage with theDixie, with the chicks I call
them the Dixie chicks.
When she went on stage with thechicks it wasn't just oh, this
is a performance, it was astatement, a challenge to the
(09:01):
gatekeepers of the genre thatowe as much to Black musicians
as it does to the whitecounterparts.
So, growing up in Houston, likehitting up the Houston Live
Sexual Rodeo, beyonce knows thisworld inside and out, but more
than that, she's illuminatingthis past, kind of back to the
roots of country music that areas black as they are Southern
(09:22):
and American and universal.
This is a whole other discussionon like what is a universal
experience, but we won't go intothat.
So in doing that, she'schallenging our understanding of
that genre, breaking down thosebarriers and the law and order
essentially of the genre.
That's why Cowboy Carter isjust a great vehicle for us to
(09:42):
kind of invite you all toreimagine this narrative of the
American cowboy and the AmericanWest itself.
So we're not going to get aheadof ourselves Y'all.
I can talk all day, becauseCowboy Carter is going to be its
own little episode.
We're going to just dive intothat ourselves.
So, from the black and browngaze, the West could be a place
(10:03):
to start fresh or have thefreedom to be who you'd like to
be or to find your people.
I think the goal of talkingabout media, beyonce and books
is thinking about how Black andBrown people have used the West
to actually liberate themselves,to actually think about freedom
and to actually break downunjust laws.
Adriana Herrera (10:28):
So I mean, I think, just as an aside, I'm
thinking, I've been thinkingabout storytelling with Western
specifically, and thinking abouthow, like we have this season,
we're going to talk aboutBeverly Jenkins and other Black
storytellers, but thinking aboutCowboy Carter and the way she
starts and ends that album it'sabout us, it's acknowledging
(10:55):
we're in a moment where we couldchange things like American
Requiem is, you know, written byJohn Batiste, arguably probably
the most brilliant musicianalive right now in America,
probably the most brilliantmusician Alive right now in
America, and Somebody as well.
Yeah, and ends also looking to.
I know we've been through a lotand so I think that is A
(11:19):
perfect, kind of like Way tothink about how the Black
Western Oper, western, operates.
It's looking to us as a momentof possible change and then and
again being about how we've madeout how, how we are, how the we
is, how the us is thecollective yes, and it speaks to
(11:40):
.
Nikki Payne (11:41):
What kind of person would you have to be to brave
that space, to brave thatterritory?
Who would go into the unknownand try to conquer it?
Which is where setting comes in.
Adriana Herrera (11:54):
What is it in the setting itself that makes
the Western a particular kind ofstory?
Nikki Payne (12:01):
The setting itself begets the story.
The wide expanse, blue skies,skies, nothing as far as the eye
can see.
You have to be a certain typeof person to try to throw
yourself into that so stay withus, because we're just getting
started.
Adriana Herrera (12:16):
The myths are unraveling y'all, and what we
find beneath might just changeeverything hey y'all.
Nikki Payne (12:25):
Welcome back to Unbound, the romance podcast
where we're saving a horse andriding a cowboy into the West.
I'm Nikki Payne and today I'msuper excited to introduce our
very first guest, someone youmight have seen on shows like
the Today Show or featured inliterary havens like Lit Hub.
She's the brilliant mind behindsome of the most engaging
bookish content out there.
(12:46):
Satoria Ray is everything y'all.
She's a bookish content creatorwho reads across genre and
identity.
Her content focuses primarilyon that intersection of reading
and liberation.
When she's not reading, however, she can be found exploring all
of NYC and complaining aboutgrad school which, sis, I still
do.
Okay, sat sis, we've beenwatching you.
(13:10):
We've been watching you, baby,and we saw you recently pick up
a Beverly Jenkins Western.
Adriana Herrera (13:20):
Yes.
Nikki Payne (13:28):
Can you tell us a little bit about like what was
your?
What did you think of Westernsbefore you picked up a Beverly
Jenkins?
Like what was in your head whenyou're just like oh, I'm going
to read a cowboy romance?
Adriana Herrera (13:34):
Like in historicals and.
Satoria Ray (13:36):
Westerns, yeah, okay.
So here's the thing I alwayssaid I was not a historical
romance person.
I liked historical fiction,like I love Sadiqa Johnson, but
I was not really into historicalromance.
And I think it was because I'mlike a history teacher, history
educator, and so, for me, likehistorical romance, it just
(13:59):
never was something I wasnaturally drawn to.
I was always drawn tohistorical fiction and so I had
never read any historicalromance or had any intention of
reading historical romance, likeit just was not something that
was calling to me, but it wasfor the diverse baseline
challenge.
(14:19):
There was a prompt to read ahistorical romance and I was
like, okay, what am I going toread?
Like I don't, you know, I don'tknow anything about historical
romance.
My mutual, sometimes Robin Reed, loves Beverly Jenkins and I
was like, okay, robin has neversteered me wrong, so I'm going
(14:39):
to pick up a Beverly Jenkins.
I had no idea what to expect.
I was like this is going tojust be, you know, a historical
take.
There's not going to be any sex, there's not going to be any
spice, like I, I didn't eventhat, didn't even cross my mind
that that existed in the genre.
Adriana Herrera (14:58):
My back is weeping.
My back is weeping.
Satoria Ray (15:02):
No, I, and maybe that's why I didn't pick it up,
to be honest, maybe, likesubconsciously, I was like I
need a little bit of spice andin my mind, because in history
as a historian, like we don'ttalk about sex, right, that
happened in history.
Like that's not.
My background is in like thecivil rights movement and like
Black history.
Like you're not thinking aboutsex when you think about the
(15:24):
civil rights movement and likeblack history.
Like you're not thinking aboutsex when you think about the
civil rights movement.
And so in my mind, myorientation to like historical
romance was something that wasvery like asexual and just like
very in tune to the history part.
And maybe romance was thesubplot.
I picked up beverly jenkins andwas like I've entered a new
portal.
I was like on the page Explicit, she said on the page Little
(15:50):
queen.
I was like I was like Beverlyyeah, I've seen my aunties
reading this.
And then I was looking at themlike okay, what are we?
But it was just like a wholenew world because one.
It was like this beautifulcombination of history that was
very well researched, like youcould tell that she really cared
(16:11):
about being accurate with thehistory that she was telling,
but also like the romance was sostrong in it that it was like
so forward that the history wasalmost the subplot, and this
like beautiful way that I thinkonly, like certain authors, can
really manage the balance of notlike doom and gloom Cause it
(16:32):
could get doom and gloom veryquickly If you think about the
historical settings that she'swriting about, but the balance
of romance and with, like, thehistory, the history that she's
writing about, was just soimmaculate.
I was like I like this and nowI want to read more historical
romance because I think that thecombination of the two, when
(16:54):
done right, is just like chef'skiss, perfect, agree agree, I
mean.
Adriana Herrera (16:58):
I think I mean as a person that writes
historical right and writeshistorical with Black women or
Black Latinas, I think part ofwhere, like the superpower, I
think of historical romance fromthe Black and Brown gaze
specifically, is that, again,because we are coming from that
lens of, like, the historyyou've served us it's not the
history that we know is thereand we can deliver it with a
(17:22):
happy ending, so that you knowthat you're safe in this space
of learning about who we were inthe past.
And we're gonna give it to youwith a little spice, yeah a
little, it was forbidden thatyou read.
Satoria Ray (17:37):
I've read, yes, I've read forbidden and I've
read indigo I mean, come on likelisten.
Adriana Herrera (17:42):
This man draped an entire carriage in blue
velvet for her.
Maybe, Like I mean it's Ryancrossed the collar line for this
woman, like literally gave uphis personhood legally and then
but it's also shrouded in thisspace of like, love is worth it
(18:03):
and we were thriving and, likeyou know, people of color in our
history in our context, in oursettings, still got to thrive
Like I mean I think I rememberit's great.
Yeah, I remember talking to likea historian after I, after she
read Caribbean heiress, andshe's like a Latin American
studies scholar and she was likeI American studies scholar and
(18:27):
she was like I think people likeI think there's something to
this of being able to deliverhistory about people of color
through romance, cause she'slike I've been shouting about
how, like people in theCaribbean were like doing things
and were like in places andstudying and and no, she's like
I've been talking about it for30 years and I don't.
I don't think I've gottenthrough anyone but I.
But I think this idea ofdelivering history through
(18:51):
romance is is something, andbeverly jenkins has known that
since 1994.
Nikki Payne (18:57):
Well, let me tell you something.
Caribbean heiress delivered meokay somewhere.
Adriana Herrera (19:04):
Okay, very personal, emotional, it made me
feel something in my, in my bodyit's historically accurate that
somebody got did some fingerbanging on the eiffel tower in
1880 and why do they be our?
Nikki Payne (19:22):
heroes and heroines right.
Satoria Ray (19:23):
No, for real.
And that's what I love abouthistorical romance, because, as
a historian, like to be honest,especially a historian of, like,
marginalized people's historynobody wants to hear about.
Like the things that we weredoing it's not attractive.
Like even when you're writingpapers and things like that,
they're like is this accurate?
And you're like, yeah, peoplehad joy.
(19:44):
Like that's, that's how we'rehere today.
Like you know, like peoplewouldn't exist without joy,
people wouldn't exist withoutromance.
The fact that we have historicalromance writers is a testament
to the joy and love that ourancestors had to sustain our
lineage for this long.
And so it's like there was love, there was romance, there were
(20:04):
all of these great thingshappening.
But when you typically havehistory coming from like a very
white supremacist lens, that joygets regulated to the margins.
And that's the power ofhistorical romance written by
marginalized people is that theypull out our stories from the
margins and they center them.
And when you have people whoare marginalized writing about
(20:25):
their ancestors and theirhistory, they can include the
joy because they know that theirtarget audience isn't white
people, right, so they know thatwe want to read about our
ancestors being loved and beingromanced and having the cart
draped out, and if a whiteperson picks up the book, great
and you enjoy it, great.
But at the end of the day, likethis is for us and by us, and I
(20:49):
think you just get a completelydifferent story.
That's the same history, butyou turn the head on who's
telling it and it opens up thedoors to just so much more
nuance and depth.
And I think that that's what Ilove the most about historical
romance is it says that like yes, slavery was happening.
And I think that that's what Ilove the most about historical
romance is it says that like yes, slavery was happening, and
also, at the same time, this ishow our people resisted, and
(21:11):
love is like one of the mostpowerful forms of resistance.
And so I just love historicalromance in that way, because I
think it really challengesdominant narratives of history
that we've been fed to,especially us who went to school
in the United States.
Right, we've been fed a verysingular viewpoint of history,
and when you pick up ahistorical romance, you're like
(21:32):
wait a minute, this is like thisis historically accurate, Like
this makes sense, like this,this makes a lot of sense, and
so I just think that that's oneof the powerful parts about it
and like the second book after ACaribbean Harris.
Right, you have two women whoare your love interests in
history.
Like I would have to, likescrounge my history textbooks
(21:55):
from my grad school and academiato find those stories.
And here it's like front andcenter and I don't have to look,
you know, into thousands andthousands of pages to try to
pull out queer histories.
Adriana Herrera (22:08):
And that's another like beautiful part
about being able to havehistorical romance writers is
that these stories exist andthey're saying, like these
stories exist and here they arefor you, yeah, I mean I
completely, and I mean I thinkeven for us right as like a
larger diaspora, is so importantto be able to read about each
other's experiences and see thethreads and like see how we were
(22:32):
all able, in our own spaces andin our own systems of
oppression, to thrive and liveand like connect with each other
in like these spaces thatweren't like made for us but we
like we found our way to.
Like I love thinking aboutplaces like New York City in
like the late 1800s, where, likethere were Cubans and there
(22:54):
were Dominicans and there werePuerto Ricans making music
together.
Or Paris, where there werepeople of color studying because
they could go to university,and to me, like thinking of like
how our diaspora has alwayslike found its way to each other
.
I think it's also like part ofthe power of historical romance,
(23:15):
of like us seeing ourselveslike mobility spaces and, yeah,
sharing music, knowledge, yeah.
Satoria Ray (23:25):
Because we were just all dropped at different
places, right, Like so we areall connected.
It was just like you gotdropped off here, I got dropped
off here, but we all came fromthe same place.
And so I think that that's liketo your point, like really
beautiful, and again, like thatis another form of resistance,
because white supremacy wantsthe diaspora to be in these like
(23:46):
silos.
But when you're able to connectthe threads, that like actually
we're all right, stemming fromthe same lineage, it just
manifests in these differentways because of where we were
literally dropped off.
Like I think again that'sanother thing that I'm really
excited to explore as I readmore historical romance is being
able to connect and seedifferent histories that I
(24:07):
myself am not even aware of.
Nikki Payne (24:11):
That was beautifully stated.
I also clocked that for us byus reference hashtag FUBU 90s
never die.
Yes, fubu, I think is going tohave like a renaissance now with
the beef because, like Kendrickis bringing it back loops into
(24:38):
this notion of like the way thatwe historically define
blackness and the way that weare like attempting to determine
and like engage with thediaspora about who is in the
community and who is not, andwe're actually having sometimes
damaging but sometimes reallyfruitful conversations right now
about what it actually means tobe politically Black versus
Black in your you know, like ofAfrican descent in your body
(25:01):
Right, and people are teasingthat out now, I think, because
of the devastating you know.
Satoria Ray (25:09):
No, that's Nikki.
Now my mind is like this is awhole thesis right here.
Nikki Payne (25:14):
I mean we don't have to get into this because
we're talking about the West,but in my defense, california is
the West.
Adriana Herrera (25:22):
In your defense .
California is the West.
It's been an interesting timeto observe, right, like I
personally, because I didn'tgrow up here.
I came here when I was 23.
And I've always loved hip hop.
But I feel like I mean someonewas saying, like this is a
conversation for people that,like, were born and raised in
the U?
S, right, and I don't disagree,like I'm very invested in it
(25:44):
because I love Kendrick Um andDrake is Drake, and so, like
I've been like observing it.
But I don't disagree that thereare there are contexts, right,
where, like, we have threads,but there are conversations like
it's why I never, why I chose,why I choose to write historical
romance that's set not in theUS, because it's in, in ways,
(26:09):
it's not necessarily my story totell, right, like I think it's,
and I think it's important forme to tell the story of, of
Dominican people, and Dominicanpeople have been in the U?
S but, like, primarily, we havebeen in other places and and
and in the Caribbean, right, soI think it's like that's been
interesting to me to see howmuch people feel like really
(26:31):
convicted when they're told likethey like you need to like sit
back and observe and I'm like'mlike I'm like riveted, but like
I'm sad, you know yeah.
Satoria Ray (26:45):
No, there are certain like even just in
cultural nuances, like there arecertain things that like I just
wouldn't understand if I didn'tgrow up in certain places.
There's certain phrases,there's certain contexts,
there's certain like uniquehistories that you get from
growing up in a place.
So I'm like yeah, I feel like Idon't disagree with that either
Like to get into the reallynitty gritty of like Drake
(27:05):
versus Kendrick, like you wouldhave to have some sort of Black
American context to reallyunderstand, like the arguments
that both sides are making yeahI agree.
Adriana Herrera (27:17):
Yeah, I mean, it's fascinating, it's very
fascinating.
Nikki Payne (27:21):
My, my feet is very riveting right now yeah, it's
saying I wish I could like seawalk, you know, because all
these videos I'm seeing people.
Just, you know it's in me, okay, oh my God.
Adriana Herrera (27:41):
To that point.
Nikki Payne (27:42):
It is like human nature just to be like a
anthropologist for a second tobuild boundaries around
community, particularly forresources, to say, like that
very important phrase they'renot like us, he's not like us.
Right, it's a way to signal,like these are the boundaries of
this community and and the waythat I'm rapping and the way
(28:10):
that I'm seeing the world is arebased on these very important
boundaries.
This is all about, like, whenwe're talking about reinventing
the West and why Beverly Jenkinsrivets us in ways that other
Western stories don't, it'sbecause she is also setting up
this boundary to look at theWest through these different
eyes, right, like she'sliterally she's in her Lamar
phase, like they, not like us.
I'm going to, I'm going to showyou exactly right.
(28:33):
I'm going to show you exactlyright, I'm going to show you
exactly of what this worldreally was.
I'm going to give you thecontext from my point of view
and I think that's like that'salso really powerful and
important to be able to do in aromance, in a historical aspect,
to say you have told this storyof the West and people have
eaten it up, but now I can tellthis exact same story from my
(28:55):
lens and it becomes a completelydifferent story because you
don't have this, this backpack,you don't have this experience
that I have, and it makes thestory that I tell different.
Satoria Ray (29:05):
Yeah, you know what this is reminiscent of.
It's reminiscent of what Beyoncenow, since we're talking about,
since we're talking about ourpeople, it's reminiscent of what
Beyonce did with Lemonade.
Since we're talking about ourpeople, it's reminiscent of what
Beyonce did with Lemonade, likethere is a huge scholarship
around Beyonce with Lemonade andbasically taking a history
that's been again told throughthe lens of whiteness and being
(29:25):
like, no, like, I'm not doingthat, this is my story now.
She's like walking on theplantation knocking over chairs,
like she's doing this wholereclamation of a history that's
historically not been told byblack people.
And in lemonade, like, and thevisuals of lemonade,
specifically, really thinkingabout this reclamation of a
(29:46):
history, and a lot of thescholarship talks about how you
have to, like, reject the gazeof whiteness to do that.
And I think that that's whatBeverly Jenkins and a lot of
marginalized authors who writehistorical romance have done,
and that is why they're able toset these boundaries and tell
such a unique story is becausethey specifically know who
(30:09):
they're talking to and they'renot concerned with, like, the
other perspective.
They're like, you already gotthat.
Nikki Payne (30:15):
Like that's in your history textbooks, that's
everywhere.
Satoria Ray (30:18):
Go there Like I'm here to tell this story and this
is the story and you're notgoing to get any other
perspective, and I think thatthat's what makes it so powerful
and that's when you can getinto, like, the reinvention or
the reclamation, when you fullyreject the idea of like the
white gaze on your story andyou're able to just tell the
(30:38):
story from your perspective andfrom your people's lens.
I think that that's anotherbeauty of like beyonce's
lemonade, which I'm a fan of,but also like beverly jenkins
work as well yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nikki Payne (30:50):
No, I agree, you just reminded me of the visuals
of uh, lemonade and I wouldreally very much call it
plantation chic, like when youlike the visuals, like the, the
black women in white cotton,like on the trees, like it is
absolutely yeah, yeah, and she'staking a plantation that like
usually people like I don't stayaway and she's like, no, we're
(31:15):
going.
Satoria Ray (31:15):
She's literally sitting in that yellow dress on
the plantation, like she's on athrone and she's like really
reclaiming this sort of and it'sjust beautiful and it's like
and I think that that's likeanother like confrontation with
history to say that like thestory you've been telling isn't
necessarily the story.
(31:36):
That's true, and I'm not goingto allow you to continue to tell
a story that is not rooted inthe beauty of my people, the
love of my people, and so, likeI'm going to walk into the
plantation, knock all of thisdown and like recreate the
narrative that had alwaysexisted, like she's not making
things up, this had always beenwhat was happening.
(31:57):
Same with Beverly Jenkins andthe stories that she's telling.
That this isn't a reach to saythat what's happening in Beverly
Jenkins stories happened inhistory.
It's just not recorded in anytextbook, and so I think that
that's like another beautifulthing about sort of this
reinvention of the West, as youcall it.
Nikki Payne (32:16):
I mean honestly to that point as a as a Houston
girly growing up with rodeoculture as just just in your
veins and having Beyonce do thisalbum that celebrates the
experience of any of these, likethe Southern rural Black
experience, to say like, hey, wewere cowboys, we were rodeo
(32:37):
queens, we are like all of thesethings.
Adriana Herrera (32:39):
Like anyone in houston could understand that,
that someone like that couldmake a rodeo album easily,
because it's very much who, whowe are yeah, and I think with I
mean beyonce is an interestingone, right, because I think and
for all of us, right I I thinkI've thought about this quite a
lot since Cowboy Carter I meanBeyonce's like my everything,
(33:00):
like she really is like theartist of my life.
I mean I could talk about herforever, but like in English,
like I have that in Spanish, Ihave people in Spanish that I
feel about that, but like she islike the artist of my life in
English, like the artist of mylife in English, and in her
trajectory you can see her likereally turning her back on the
influence of pleasing, like awhite gaze and a white palette
(33:23):
and just really really honing inon like her own humanity as a
Black woman.
Like do you remember that SNLskit right after Lemonade came
out, when people were likebeyonce is black and they were
like running around and likebuildings were burning or
whatever?
Yes, and I, I like it was funny, but also like like you can
(33:48):
sense her like kind of like kindof shedding right, like that,
like that the need to kind ofaccommodate.
Yeah, and I think for us whocome into romance, I've been
reading romance since I was like12 years old, I'm in my mid-40s
and really loving it, likereally thinking of romance as
(34:09):
like a space where I really comefor comfort and then as a
having to really kind of takethe like intentionally turning
away from it from like that needto accommodate what romance as
a genre has been which is sosteeped in whiteness, and really
(34:30):
go to like no, I can't.
I have to, really, if this isgoing to be what I came to do,
which is to represent thisexperience that I have, and
really like affirm that wedeserve love, that we get it,
that we have it, that we'vealways had it, you have to
really do it intentionally andlike it really, and once you do,
(34:51):
then you have to like, do itlike in this almost like
container of like whiteness isnot going to touch this because
if it does, then it loses theeffect almost, yeah, like.
I feel like every Beyonce albumgets blacker or more like for
the future, since, likeself-titled.
(35:14):
Yeah since like self-titled yeahand and and, like when artists
like when you have that gazelike I think it just, it's just
so noticeable, like yeah, butreading Beverly Jenkins, like
the reading.
I don't know.
Alexandria House is likeanother author that I always
think about when I'm thinking ofsomeone who is writing just so
in the pocket of who is of herreader.
(35:37):
That, like you know, y'all cancome and enjoy, but this is for
a very specific person andcommunity black hockey players
like come on, I know and haveyou read her latest one?
it's like, uh, it's like it's awhite rapper, she's.
She's not black white rapper,she's an albino.
Oh yeah, and he is.
(35:59):
And she has like a tiger for apet.
I mean, it's just.
Oh my gosh, that's incredible,and like Wesley Shielman, like
does the raps and the.
Anyway, it's so great In theaudio book.
Yeah, it's so great, it's sogreat In the audio book.
Yeah, it's so great.
It's so great Again.
Like I just think that thereare people who have like that
(36:20):
they're so clear on what, whothe valued reader is, and it
just comes through in the pagelike so clearly yeah, yeah.
Nikki Payne (36:32):
Y'all, this guy Are we being.
Adriana Herrera (36:39):
Are we like thinking about?
Nikki Payne (36:41):
stuff when we're like reading and writing.
Yeah, no, this is the thing isand I don't mean this to shade,
like like anyone, but like to tosometimes even to have to think
about this, about historicityand about positionality and
perspective.
Even that is this burden onyour writing, is this weight on
(37:04):
your writing that not everyone?
People just don't have to thinkabout it.
Someone can just open a bakeryand fall in love with the cranky
next door person at the at theshop, and then that's the whole
story and it can become abestseller and they are the
recreational billionaire.
(37:27):
Yeah, that's that becomes likeeven that work, that burden,
that knowledge becomes somethingthat we have to carry into our
work and then like and sometimeswhen you see people not
carrying it, you know there'sthis sense of like, what are you
?
You know, what are we doinghere?
Like, what are we?
Do you mean to tell me we don'thave to do this?
(37:48):
But yeah, like not to get intolike specifics.
But you see, but yeah, like notto get into like specifics.
But you see, you see, whenpeople have carried the load or
have done the work and are doingthe thing, you know, yes, yeah,
Because it's important, right,Like you always, like I remember
when I was thinking I've knownMs Bev for a long time.
Adriana Herrera (38:11):
I've known Ms Bev for about seven, eight years
and I remember having aconversation with her, like when
RWA used to exist, that Iwanted to write a historical and
I was like this is what Iwanted to do.
But, like you know, at thatpoint they really wouldn't buy
historicals by people of colorIf the main characters were
people of color.
Like it's just not a market forit.
(38:33):
And the first thing she told mewas you better have your
references, you better have yoursources.
Like you had to have thatbibliography at the end of the
book, because the first thingthey're going to tell you is
that none of this reallyhappened and this was like I
want to say 2017, 2018, this wasa while
ago.
And, um, because like she's Imean again like it's it's a
(38:57):
woman that's been doing amazingwork and she knows it comes at a
cost to her.
Like she, she's.
She's so good that if she, shecould have made other choices
and perhaps, like you know, beenJulia Quinn, but she chose not
to be.
She chose to like write thehistory that she felt was
important.
But even knowing like this isnot going to be easy, like you
(39:18):
know, like you're choosing,you're choosing a road that's
going to be hard because peopleare going to question you a lot
a bibliography like she's.
Satoria Ray (39:27):
Like she's a historian and a romance writer,
like that.
But I'm just like does isanyone else having to bring a
bibliography?
No, because we've just acceptedthat.
Like yeah, that happened.
Like that.
But I'm just like does isanyone else having to bring a
bibliography?
No, because we've just acceptedthat.
Like yeah, that happened.
Adriana Herrera (39:39):
Like that sounds yeah yeah so many guys
that turn out to be, you know,marrying a dude, like so many
governesses, yeah, so I mean, Ithink it is.
That is like, again, like it'sit's not easy, but again, like
we know how important it is forus for readers to be able to
(40:02):
pick up a book and see what, allthe things that we've done, we
didn't just hatch in 1984.
Nikki Payne (40:13):
Yeah we're here, okay, set Like we're.
We're about to wrap, wrap up,but I have two more questions
for you, okay, okay.
The first question is when youthink of a cowboy, when a cowboy
okay, a cow hand, a cow personlike erupts into your mind, what
(40:33):
do you see?
You?
Satoria Ray (40:35):
You know you said that and the first thing I said
was the first thing that came tomy mind was Rebecca
Witherspoon's cover.
Nikki Payne (40:41):
to be honest, Rebecca's done the work.
Satoria Ray (40:46):
Like, but also like I grew up in the country, so
like my orientation to likecowboys has always been Black
people because I grew up aroundblack country cowboys and so
it's always been for me likeyeah, my uncle, you know, like
someone with a cowboy boots anda hat on, like out here, you
(41:07):
know, in the yard.
But when you said that, Iliterally picture the specific
one.
I think it's like a thorn inthe saddle.
It just like it came to my mindand I was like that's a cowboy,
it's such a great cover too.
Adriana Herrera (41:21):
That's the one where he's got the yeah.
Nikki Payne (41:24):
Yeah, okay, first of all, I love that that book is
in like the black imaginary asa cowboy.
Yeah and yeah.
And also Beverly Jenkins wantsto know if your uncle has a
mustache no, he has a beardthough, okay, okay okay, yes
(41:46):
we'll report back okay, yeah,let her know.
Satoria Ray (41:50):
Did he pass like pass or fail?
Nikki Payne (41:55):
okay, second question and we can wrap up on
this.
But what was the first thing,the first concert that you spent
your money on, like, where didyou go?
Satoria Ray (42:12):
that I spent my money on?
Oh my god, that's difficult.
Um, where did you go that Ispent my money on?
Yeah, oh my God, that'sdifficult.
I think the first concert thatI spent my money on was SZA Okay
, okay, okay, and it was like,and it was a meet and greet, I
(42:32):
remember, because I was like I'mdoing big things.
I was in college.
I was like it was $25.
But I was like I'm doing bigthings.
Like I was in college.
I was like it was it was $25,but I was like I'm doing big
things, like I'm affording thislike meet and greet, what says
it was literally $25.
This was like before she gotreally big.
It was like in my like the citythat's near my hometown, so it
was in Greensboro, northCarolina.
It was in this like tiny venuethat didn't even have
(42:54):
functioning AC, so people werelike passing out literally the
entire show.
She's like singing and stoppingand being like get them some
water, get some water.
Like it was a mess, but I thinkthat that was my the first one
that I paid for, because Ivividly remember like I bought a
new outfit for it, like it wasa whole ordeal, and then I got
(43:17):
to meet her.
Adriana Herrera (43:18):
Okay, that's iconic actually.
Satoria Ray (43:19):
Yeah.
Adriana Herrera (43:20):
Like she is, such a great artist she is,
she's amazing To be in the earlypeople to recognize her genius.
Satoria Ray (43:29):
No, she's good, I love her.
That's because I spent I wasraised on Tumblr and they loved
her on Tumblr, so I very quicklywas like oh, sza, that's my
girl, that's a good one.
Adriana Herrera (43:39):
I love that one .
Nikki Payne (43:41):
Me too.
We're collecting an archive.
We hope to ask you, knoweveryone, this very interesting
question.
We think that the type of mediathat you choose, that you kind
of go out and use your resourcesto like, experience, live or
experience, it just says so muchabout, like, the type of um,
sometimes, the type of readerthat you are, that the way that
(44:01):
you consume media, the way thatyou see the world, and we just
love asking that um question toto everyone your curiosity.
Adriana Herrera (44:09):
Yeah, recognition of brilliance no,
it's a great question yes, yes.
Nikki Payne (44:15):
Tell the world that you were just like.
Satoria Ray (44:16):
Sorry, I was first I almost passed out, but like
listen, that's a great story.
Adriana Herrera (44:22):
I would get him some water oh my gosh.
Nikki Payne (44:28):
All right, seth.
Thank you so much um this wasfantastic this was compelling.
This was everything that weknew it would be thank you, yeah
, yeah, y'all were great.
Satoria Ray (44:38):
Thank you for having me.
Nikki Payne (44:39):
Awesome, this was great okay, now, if people want
more of your hot takes and moretea and more information, where
can they find you?
Satoria Ray (44:47):
so I am on tiktok at sat ray reads um, but follow
me there and then instagram,because y'all know tiktok is up
in the air right now.
So on on Instagram atSatRayReads, and then in the
bios of both of those accounts Ihave links where you can add me
on Substack and I like fleshout a lot of the thoughts and
things that I share on Instagramthere.
Nikki Payne (45:07):
Do you want to talk about your auction?
Satoria Ray (45:08):
Yes, oh, yes, okay.
So we, my friends and I, arecurrently hosting a Gaza book
evacuation auction to raise asmuch funds as we can to help
Palestinians in Gaza who aretrying to escape to safety with
their loved ones.
It'll be going until May 12th.
You can find us on Instagram atGaza book auction that account.
(45:35):
There's links to the auctionwhere you can see a lot of
wonderful items that have beendonated from authors, content
creators, industry professionals, artists, so on and so forth,
but there's also the link toGoFundMes for different
Palestinians.
So if you can't find anythingto bid on or you just like to
donate, we have a bunch ofGoFundMes that you can donate to
as well.
Nikki Payne (45:53):
Thank you so much.
Satoria Ray (45:54):
Of course, thank you.
Adriana Herrera (46:00):
So the setting itself is part of the story.
The stage of the Western isthis untamed wilderness, the
endless possibility of the West,the black canvas that you can
reinvent like literally milesand miles and miles of nothing
that you can shape into whateveryou want to be or whatever you
(46:26):
need it to be, just the thoughtof someone that would see all
this vastness and think there'spossibility here.
It is a very particular kind ofperson.
Nikki Payne (46:41):
And that's why it's so effective on film.
It's a great stage to start astory, to start any type of
narrative.
Adriana Herrera (46:49):
And it's romantic.
It requires a passionatecharacter, someone with
conviction, with vision, to makeit in the West.
Only the best, the strongest,the most persistent can survive,
the tenacious can survive andthrive in the West.
How do you do it withoutengaging with the dangers of
(47:14):
such like treacherous territory?
The Western from the white gazeis so much about the stress and
seeing everything that isalready there as the enemy uh,
oh, everything that's alreadythere.
Nikki Payne (47:27):
Uh, who's already there?
Uh, the indigenous population.
So is the western tropeinherently genocidal?
Adriana Herrera (47:37):
I mean it depends, yeah, it depends.
So, like red river and buck ofthe preacher, for instance.
These two movies, one from 1948, starting John Way and
Montgomery Clift one of myfavorite old-timey Hollywood
gays and the other from 1972,starting Sidney Pottier and
(48:00):
Harry Rilafanti On the face ofit, these two movies are
basically about the same thing.
It is about two men leading acaravan of families to the West,
hopefully to safety and abetter life.
Except that in Red River, johnWayne's character turns
(48:21):
tyrannical and sees everyoneoutside of their party as the
enemy.
Literally from the first fewminutes it's established that
the, the Native Americans whoare already living on that land,
are hostile killers.
And then he eventually becomesterrifying.
And the character of MontgomeryClift, who's like his mentee,
(48:42):
is terrified of him and atdifferent points has to consider
whether he has to kill himBecause it becomes so dangerous.
And Buck and the Pre?
Um it like is completelydifferent.
It's with two leads who are,for all intents and purposes,
morally gray characters.
The story is completelydifferent.
(49:03):
It's set after the civil warand buck, who is a wagon master,
is taking Black families fromLouisiana to Kansas to safety,
because Louisiana has become sodangerous for Black people, who
are now free but are now beingterrorized, killed by white
raiders on the way west.
(49:24):
Instead of seeing the NativeAmericans as their enemies, buck
and Preacher actually hook upwith the Native Americans there
(49:45):
and they get permission to huntbuffalo to be able to eat and
they are able to go west.
Right, they are able to make itwest by, instead of becoming
hostile against Native Americans, they ally themselves with them
.
They end up robbing a couple ofbanks in order to get money to
(50:07):
get west.
So they do a little crime asone does.
They do a little crime as onedoes.
They do do a little crime, butin the end the safety of the
caravan is the most importantthing, as opposed to john
wayne's story, where he becomesthe one that terrorizes the
(50:27):
people he's supposed to get tosafety.
So, on the face of it, verysimilar stories, and yet the
gaze of these stories and thevalue system of these stories
and the protagonist of thesestories are completely different
.
Nikki Payne (50:46):
Okay, this?
This leads us directly intocharacter In Buckingham,
Preacher and Red River.
The same archetypes develop andflourish into completely
different types of people.
What happens when the Westerncharacters are people of color?
Adriana Herrera (51:03):
Well, we kind of have to go into what are the
archetypes of the Western of thewestern.
Nikki Payne (51:13):
Okay, the anthropologist in me wants to
start with folklore.
Think of paul bunyan and hisaxe and those picos bill types,
the epic heroes of the west.
These are the folks that builtour legend paul bunyan with his
axe and that bull babesupposedly carved out the grand
canyon when picos bill rode amountain lion with barbed wire
reins.
And there was that dude hisname escapes me right now that
(51:34):
tied up twisters in a knot.
These heroes were larger thanlife but, most importantly, they
had to conquer the land throughforce and power.
These are the heroes of theWest.
Adriana Herrera (51:48):
I mean, as an aside, the whole barbed wire
thing is a little problematic,pecos Of course but also almost
makes you think of this as likean American pantheon.
Like does the American part ofthe American pantheon come from?
The figures, these folklorefigures of the West?
Nikki Payne (52:10):
Absolutely.
First of all, yes, Pico's billis canceled.
Obviously you cannot do that,Not today, not in this economy.
But then there are these moretraditional heroes of the West
right the settler, the outlaw,the cowboy, the stranger who
walks into town to make troubleor to solve the trouble brewing.
Adriana Herrera (52:31):
And women also.
The women of the west also havevery particular archetypes.
We have the homesteader, thelady you know that's standing
there, her skirt flowing in thewind, looking at her man going,
you know, to wrangle cattle, andyou have the runaway.
So just show up with like analias and no hit, no backstory.
(52:52):
And then you have your womanwho are running the local
brothel, the entertainment, soto speak.
Nikki Payne (53:02):
Did you just mention brothel?
I think this is where theromance starts.
Adriana Herrera (53:06):
This might be where the romance starts.
Yes, yes, you're correct.
Nikki Payne (53:11):
Yeah, this is where we edge you.
We edge you on the romance.
No, sorry.
Adriana Herrera (53:17):
This is where we edge the romance talk.
Nikki Payne (53:24):
But seriously, cowboy romance as a subgenre
illustrates that different gazemakes a difference when it comes
to themes, characterizationsand how HEAs are envisioned.
Adriana Herrera (53:38):
Yeah, I mean, I think part of how we even came
up with the theme of the Western, as our first season was from
my going back to reread a bunchof 90 romances and I was reading
you know Elizabeth Lowell has aseries that I really loved back
in the 90s and I revisitedafter a long time and I was
(54:00):
reading at the same time I wasreading beverly jenkins um
westerns and I just noticed,like the very stark differences
in how the storytelling happenedand the characterization and
the plot points and just how,despite them being thematically
(54:21):
very similar and havingarchetypes that were very, very
similar and overlapping, thestorytelling was so different.
Nikki Payne (54:30):
So different.
I mean, we can take one themeand pull it apart.
Now, when we think about thelaw, right, we can think about
characters like we mentionedwalking into town, and they are
there.
Oftentimes, white charactersare there to establish law or to
reestablish order, and theyhave done their good deed by
leaving a town that is now in abetter position than they had,
(54:54):
are, you know, ostensibly betterposition than they started.
And that is how we know thatthat character in a white story,
in a white romance, has done agood thing safe, the woman is
(55:15):
now safe, and they'veestablished this order and
consistency and deliberate, um,like management of the
environment.
And that's how we know oh, thisis a happily ever after, like
now they're able to settle andthey're able to, like, live on
this land because of the braveryand and conventions of that
hero so then, what happens whenwe get people that are outside
the law established by white men?
Adriana Herrera (55:32):
and that is where beverly jenkins literally
wrote the book.
Literally wrote the bookbecause she literally she has
written about train robbers,fugitive, bounty hunters,
buffalo soldiers, men navigatinga west parallel to the one that
most of us envision.
(55:53):
When we think about the West,we think about a John Wayne, and
Beverly Jenkins has literally acatalog of Westerns that are
about men who are literallytrying to operate and thrive and
live in a system that they haveto build for themselves, which,
in a lot of ways, exists in thegrays.
Nikki Payne (56:17):
The trickster figure.
Adriana Herrera (56:19):
Yeah, and it really comes from that idea of
point of view.
Right, it's that quote fromAlviso Campos, who's a Puerto
Rican liberator, says Cuando latiranía es ley, la revolución
Like.
It's that quote from AlvisoCampos, who's a Puerto Rican
liberator, says Cuando latiranía es ley, la revolución es
orden, which I'm going to justregurgitate this in English,
(56:39):
which I never usually do in myown books, but it's when tyranny
is law, revolution is order.
And so the point of view ofsomeone writing the Western
allows for much more dynamic andcomplex world building.
Where you're kind of comingfrom the place of law and order
(57:00):
isn't necessarily the answer foreveryone and it doesn't
necessarily encapsulate a happy,happy ever after for everyone.
Nikki Payne (57:08):
So the West is about power resistance renewal.
How does that look when thecharacter is black and brown?
Adriana Herrera (57:15):
Who owns this American story of reinvention?
Beyonce, well, yeah, definitelyher Um but um.
But also we all do Um.
Why does it matter who tellsthe story?
Because the storyteller shapesthe narrative.
They decide which charactersstand in the spotlight and which
(57:36):
themes resonate through theages.
When Black people and people ofcolor tell the story of the
West, they're just notrecounting tales of cowboys
establishing rule of law ortaming the land.
When we tell our stories, wetake the reins.
We take shifts in the narrativefrom conquest and domination to
(57:58):
one of collectivism, communityand liberation from unjust laws.
Nikki Payne (58:04):
Beautiful.
We hope you can join usbiweekly on Unbound and join our
conversation.
Thanks for riding with us.
Adriana Herrera (58:12):
Your thoughts and stories are the lifeblood of
this exploration, so we inviteyou to engage with us.
Share your insights, yourfavorite moments and the romance
narratives that have touchedyour life.
Find us all on all majorpodcast platforms and follow us
on TikTok, youtube and Instagramfor updates and behind the
scenes contents.
We'll have reading lists, alistening list and a watching
(58:33):
list for you to follow along aswe go west.
Next time, we are diving deepin the Beverly Jenkins oeuvre
and how her stories, deeplysteeped in history and heavily
researched, are the perfectcombination of the myth of the
western and the actual historyof the West.
Where we're all really get intosex in the West with Beverly
(58:55):
Jenkins.
Until next time, keep yourhearts unbound.
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