Grasping Sasquatch With John Baranchok ep187

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:18):
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(00:42):
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Speaker 2 (01:01):
In your way.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
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(01:23):
that you can find anything in everything uncomfortable, all in
one spot. The link for that is down below in
the show notes. Got a great show for you guys tonight.
Tonight's guest is a now retired doctor in neuropsychology. He
now spends his time split between the Manimal Research and
BFRO Expedition teams throughout Georgia, Tennessee, and Kentucky. He's part

(01:45):
of Doug Hicheck's Untold Radio network and hosts his own
YouTube channel called Grasping Bigfoot. We're going to tear into
some of his in his words, ass puckering Class B encounters,
as well as the science behind his research technique. So
if you're ready, let's get into it. So, if you will,

(02:29):
please give a warm, uncomfortable welcome to doctor John Baron.
Chuck John, Welcome to the show.

Speaker 3 (02:36):
Hey, thank you for having me. Just by way of clarification,
I did a thirty six episode YouTube channel and podcast
on the book that I wrote, but and it's still
active and up there, but the podcast is no longer
actively recording.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
News shows Okay, Okay and the book isn't.

Speaker 3 (03:01):
Search Grasping Sasquatch Prepping for Scientific Fuel Research?

Speaker 2 (03:07):
Okay? And how long has that book been out?

Speaker 3 (03:13):
About six months? I guess at this point Under that name,
it's a it's a retitle and reprint and re edit
from my self published book which was called Psychological Horizons
and Scientific Bigfoot Research, which is why I struggle with
the title. Yeah, yeah, and so, and that has been

(03:39):
out about two years prior to to this recent more
recent edition.

Speaker 1 (03:45):
Well, while we're talking about that, where can people find
this book should they be interested?

Speaker 3 (03:50):
Sure? Hangar one Publications carries the book. It also carries
some merch to go along with the podcast in the book,
and you can also get it on Amazon as well. Awesome,

(04:11):
not the merch, just the book.

Speaker 1 (04:13):
Got So John, we had a we had a wonderful
conversation a couple of days ago when I when I
hung up the phone, I think we were right at
two hours.

Speaker 3 (04:26):
Should have had the recorder on.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
We should. But so you're you're fascination with this topic,
was was it something that you were interested in prior
to having these ass puckering Class B experiences or not

(04:49):
so much?

Speaker 3 (04:50):
Well, not so much. I in hindsight. My first big
foot experience was oh, probably a day decade before this,
and I was in my private practice and realized as
a neuropsychologist and pain psychologist, and I was realizing that

(05:15):
I was taking care of anybody but me, everybody but me.
So I decided to get back into my old hobby
of fishing. And as I started hunting for maps on fishing,
I came across what I thought was a fishing map,
but it turned out to be the BFRO website. Clicked

(05:39):
onto Georgia, decided, well, if I can getting on an expedition,
why not to kill two birds with one stone fish
and doing Bigfoot. And that's how I met Laurie Wade,
and then I did several of Lori's expeditions, several of
Charlie's expeditions, Charlie Raymond, and then more recently spending more

(06:05):
time with Manimal Research as well. So never didn't have
a I wasn't thinking of at all of big site,
our bigfoot when I had what I think is my
first encounter, and years later, you know, that's when I
started learning more about it.

Speaker 1 (06:26):
Now you've got some tie with Amy Boo from the
Project Zoo book as well.

Speaker 2 (06:32):
Don't you.

Speaker 3 (06:33):
Yeah. Yeah, I'm a member of Project zoo Book as well,
which was although I'm not one of them, a lot
of people, a lot of scientific researchers don't necessarily want
their name associated with Bigfoot, and Project zoo Book is
kind of to create a safe space for them to

(06:54):
be able to learn more and find more and do
research on Bigfoot. Weall kind of remaining enoughymous.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
Well, I want to do an episode with Amy Boo
about Project zoo Book, specifically so that that project is
giving anonymity to to the scientific academia that wants to
be involved with it without necessarily being outed for for
having a belief or having to having to face face

(07:26):
the music, as it were with with the skeptics. Yeah,
and Amy, what a great idea to come up with.

Speaker 3 (07:35):
Amy is just one of the nicest people you'll ever meet,
and we met about once a month and have guests
or specific topics sharing research.

Speaker 1 (07:47):
Yeah, she's a wonderful soul. I really enjoy talking with her. So, John,
let's let's get into the meat and potatoes of your
your your experiences, and then I really really enjoyed the
part of our conversation. The other night where we started
talking about the different theories and the scientific aspects of

(08:12):
what you're doing.

Speaker 3 (08:13):
Sure the meat and potatoes as in my experiences, is
that what you're talking about? Yeah, okay. So the very
first expedition I went on, I'm not going to share

(08:34):
the story because it's a long and boring story, but
suffice it to say that I heard a bigfoot yell
above some coyotes that particular night and then went out.

(08:57):
Probably one of the most exciting and owners I had
was up in Tennessee. And for those who haven't been
on an expedition, there can be anywhere from twenty to
fifty people in a large group, and then we break

(09:18):
down into groups of three to six and go out
and do our expeditions. And so I was involved in
a group of a group with fifteen people, three groups
of four, and a group of three. And because they

(09:45):
pre scout to get to this area, we had afford
some streams that they had bridges set up, used pallets
to set up some bridges and ropes. So we had
to ford about three three streams to get onto firm ground,
and then we had a hike up a good halfway

(10:07):
three corners of the way up this hill, this mountain,
and there was an old cabin there. The gentleman that
built that cabin was looking to avoid consignment during the
Civil War. So we had a group of three people
stay at the cabin, and then three groups of four

(10:30):
dispersed onto the mountain. One went down lower on the mountain,
and then I was in one or two groups that
went higher up the mountain. We had a hike up
a slippery, slippery, slippery gain trail to get from the

(10:51):
mountain to the main fire road, and the fire road
hadn't been trimmed for some time, and so as we're
walking up it was two experienced bigfooters, Greg Ogleby and
boy I'm having trouble with names today, greg Olglebe and George,

(11:18):
and then myself was one of the newbies and rookies,
and a guy by the name of Dan Kegley. It
was also his one of his first expeditions. So we
hiked up the fire road in a single line. And
as we were hiking, the forest was extremely quiet. It

(11:38):
had rained the night before, so you could hear the
water running off the rocks and the leaves of the trees.
You could hear the trees rustling in the wind. But
otherwise you couldn't hear any other animal life. You couldn't
hear chipmunks or squirrels rustling in the in the leaves.

(12:01):
We didn't see any turkey or turkey activity. We didn't
see any deer activity. It was as if it was lifeless,
and we had that silence that that you hear of
except for the leaves and running rainwater. So I asked George,
I said, George, is this the kind of silence you're

(12:24):
talking about when George Wrigley, Is this the kind of
silence you're talking about when you know there's a big
foot in the area. And he said, well, this like
this silence, but you usually have a sense of being watched,
you know, kind of that your hair standing up on
the neck, or some people call it your spidery senses

(12:46):
kind of tingle. So he didn't think that the silence
was anything unique. So we kept hiking, and we were
The plan was to for one group to go in
one direction on the fire road and the other group
to go in the other and we were going to
meet halfway around behind the back of the mountain. Well,

(13:11):
we hiked for a couple hours couldn't get a hold
of the other group and didn't come across the other group.
So we finally got a hold of him on the
walkie talkie, and somehow we took the wrong turn and
we weren't ever going to meet him, so we decided

(13:36):
to call it, call it a hike.

Speaker 1 (13:39):
Let me let me just jump in here. So the
intention was for you guys to at some point cross,
but you had got turned around, and inevitably there was
no way that was going.

Speaker 3 (13:49):
To happen exactly exactly. So we got a hold. We
finally got a hold of them over the walkie talkie,
and lo and behold, they had signed of pigs rooting
on the rooting on the fire road with their nose
tearing up the ground. They scared roosting turkeys on the ground,

(14:11):
roosting turkeys from the trees and trees on the turkeys
on the ground. They saw deer, they had chipping, They
had all the wildlife we thought we'd be seeing, but
we didn't have any sign of that they had it all,
so we didn't think much about that. I couldn't tell

(14:33):
you how far apart it was because we stopped before
reaching the backside of the mountain when we realized we
weren't going to meet them. So I really don't I
really don't know, to be honest with you, So we
just we start walking. We start walking home, or not home,

(14:54):
but back down the fire path fire road we had
just hiked up. And these guys got a kick out
of it when I talk about hypnosis and what kind
of things you can do with hypnosis and how that
could be related to bigfoot phenomena, some of it, and

(15:15):
I was talking about some aspect of it, and I
was behind, I was second in line, single file, going
down the hill. And when I made this comment, I
can't even tell you what comment it was. But my
buddy in front of me, George, he stopped in his tracks,
pivoted on his heel, and took a stepper towards step

(15:38):
or two towards me before I stopped, and he said jah,
and all he got out was the first syllable of
my name, and all of a sudden, boom, this huge bomb.
It was like this huge bomb went off over our heads.
But it was a tree pushover or at that point,

(16:00):
you know, a tree could have fallen, but it was
it cracked and exploded like a bomb. Went out over
our heads, and of course we immediately started looking around,
and we were near the cabin. At this point. The
folks at the cabin radioed up, did you hear that

(16:21):
that tree? That tree fall or that tree push over?
We said, hell yeah, it was just about on top
of our heads. So we were still looking up and
and after the tree explosion, you could hear things tumbling
down the hill. It sounded like rocks and logs were

(16:43):
tumbling boulder rocks and logs were tumbling down the hill
towards us, and George and I skidaddled towards the front
a little bit. Greg Ogleby, he was last in line.
He sc scattered, skidded towards the back, and Dan Kegley,
God bless him, he just reached and pulled, pulled for

(17:07):
his k bar knife, his military knife, and pivoted on
his head and was up looking up the hill, getting
ready to take on what was ever coming our way.
You know that was brave Yeah. I ended up since
then nicknamed him brave Heart, because all three of us

(17:30):
were otherwise looking to skidaddle and get out of there,
and he just decided to turn and face what was
ever coming down the hill and nothing came down the hill.
We were expecting giant boulders and trees and stones coming.

(17:50):
Nothing came down the hill except a huge cloud of loam. Now,
loam is the soil you get out of if you
have like a mulch pile. It's real rich and it
has a very distinctive odor.

Speaker 2 (18:05):
Yeah, very very airy in lightweight.

Speaker 3 (18:09):
Yes. And I smelled the loam before I saw it,
and then as I was looking up the hill for
anything else coming down, I saw the little particles of
loam falling, falling down in the air. So as you're
to do on a BFRO expedition expedition, we tried to

(18:33):
debunk and explain away what that could have been, and
of course one of the obvious possibilities was trees. But
this thing went on for it seemed longer. But George
had his recorder on and it was fourteen seconds of
this landslide sound. And if it was a good recording,

(18:56):
I'd share it with you, But it in no way
spe or form conveys the intensity of that sound.

Speaker 1 (19:05):
Nevertheless, nevertheless, it does give you something to go back
and listen to and put help insert yourself back into
that position where you remember exactly what was going on.

Speaker 3 (19:19):
Yeah, fourteen seconds sounded much too short, seemed like it
took a much longer time, but that's all there was
to it. So we spent about another thirty forty minutes
trying to debunk it, looking up the hill, looking for bigfoot,
looking for whatever. We couldn't find a thing. We were

(19:43):
probably four of the oldest in the expedition party. But
nonetheless we decided, and this happened about three o'clock in
the morning. We decided we were going to come back
the next day and case it out more closely. So
we put two long vertical sticks stuck them onto the

(20:05):
ground to make an X so we could get right
back to that exact location. Well, the next morning, all
four of us store is all get out, so we
were hurting too bad to go up there. But a
young man just out of the fresh out of the

(20:26):
military and begin to hunting. His last name was Mixing.
He said, well, I'm going to go up there. So
he goes up there, and I'll be darn real close
to where we made that X with the sticks. He

(20:47):
fountains finds a full adult print, a castable print. He
was new to the situation, so he didn't know how
to cast, and so he came all the way back
down the mountain, all the way back to base camp,

(21:08):
our true base camp, not the cabin, and got somebody
that knew how to cast, and they went back up there,
back up to the cabin, back up the deer trail,
up to the fire road, up to where we heard
the landslide or the bluff charge, and oh gee, I

(21:34):
skipped a part of the story. At any rate, he
they cast that print, and while the print print was drying,
the cast was drying, they found a partial print on
the drop off side of the fire road, and a

(21:56):
fresh tree barked tear fifteen inches or fifteen feet up
the tree. And when they looked down over the when
they looked down over the drop off, about ten feet down,
a platued off into a flat and they saw a

(22:17):
bunch of infant and juvenile prints there. Well, that night,
after we couldn't debunk, you know, after we couldn't figure
out why we had that landslide experience, we started walking
back down to the trail, and just as we got

(22:43):
to the head of the deer trail, the small slippers
sloped down to the cabin. The folks at the cabin
radioed up and said, are you guys coming down the
fire road or the deer trail. Well, we're on the
fire road. We're just getting ready to come down the
deer trail. Ten four, we start down the deer trail,

(23:03):
and I mean it was like slippery clay going down
that thing. It was like ice almost. And they radio
up again, and we're all being real careful not to
fall as we go down this trail. The radio up
again and they said, are you on the deer trail

(23:26):
or are you on the fire road? We said, we're
on the deer trail. Now why do you keep calling us? Well,
when you were on the fire road, there were either
either there was either red eyeshine or red spheres of
some kind following you about thirty to forty yards behind you.

(23:52):
And now that you're on the deer trail, the same
thing is happening. We're seeing either red eye shine or
sphere behind you following you down the deer trail. So
we all pivoted and shined our light up the trail.
We couldn't see a thing. So we walked the rest

(24:16):
of the way down the trail, and we're going to
rest for about fifteen minutes just to get our wind
before we walked down the other half of the mountain
and forded those streams to get in our cars to
get to the main base camp. And so as we're
sitting outside this cabin just looking out into the forest

(24:41):
across from where the deer trail was, we just came
down all of a sudden, somebody said, look at that
with that red light. And I looked at it and see
a thing. And then somebody else said, look at there's
one over there, And I looked over there and I
caught that one, just a little red eye, what looked
like red eye, popping out from behind a tree. And

(25:05):
the next thing you knew it, other people were saying,
look at that one, look at that one, look at
that one. The whole forest was lighting up. Not the
whole forest, but a good one hundred yards stretch of
forest was lighting up with red eyeshine, peep up peepers,
the red one, red eye would pop out from behind

(25:29):
a tree and pop back in, pop out from the
other side of the tree, pop back in. And this
was going on over like one hundred yards stretch. Again,
we were so excited we failed to count, but I'd say, there,
we're at twenty four sets of eyes kind of peeping
on us. Never did we see an adult, adult eyes

(25:55):
stepping out from behind a tree. These were all real
close to the ground or just a few feet up
off the ground, so small eyes.

Speaker 1 (26:04):
Let me let me get some clarification here. Did you
ever see did you ever see two together that would
indicate like an entire head was sticking out? Well, you're
you were seeing both eyes at the same time or
were they always one or the other?

Speaker 3 (26:22):
It was personally for me it was one or the other.
I don't recall anyone seeing saying they saw both eyes.
Everybody was pointing to just one at one eye at
a time.

Speaker 1 (26:34):
So was there any illumination from you the viewers? Was
there any illumination going out towards the woods?

Speaker 3 (26:42):
That would good question. Good question because you know eye
glow versus eyes shine, right, and I've been saying eye
glow because it was still that night, The moon was

(27:03):
blocked completely, There was cloud coke cover over all the sky.
It was real dark. Hiking up there. We turned our
lights out and you couldn't see your finger in front
of your nose, so there was no other visible illumination,

(27:25):
and so that made me think it's eye glow. When
I recently posted that, somebody made a pretty good point though,
what if there was a spectrum of light going on
that humans can't see, but could have still been reflecting
and causing eyeshine. I can't dispute that possibility. But all

(27:50):
the human eye was seeing was dark. And then these
red peepers all over the forest, so all fifteen the
sat there for twenty twenty five minutes and just it
was like a It was almost like a big ass
Christmas tree laying on its side, and they just kept

(28:15):
peeping and peeping and peeping, and then gradually it died
down and stopped, and then we walked away back down
the mountain.

Speaker 2 (28:25):
You guys, can you give me a rough idea?

Speaker 1 (28:29):
How how what was the distance the distance between you,
the viewers and the and the eyes.

Speaker 3 (28:37):
I'd say about fifty yards.

Speaker 1 (28:39):
Okay, if that so not too terribly far. Did any
of you ever witness like a blinking action where they
would just blink and you would lose sight of the
redness for a split sey?

Speaker 3 (28:53):
Yes, yes, yeah, Sometimes when they'd peep out on the side,
they'd blink, you know, they assuming it would be their
eyelids and they could go out that way as well.
They'd blink out that way. And so it was the
next morning. Then I think his name is Daniel Mixon.

(29:15):
When mister Mixon went up and found this right at
the location where he x marks the spot, he found
the footprint that they cast it. That footprint was seventeen
and a half inches long, and the clarity of it
was incredible. You could see the dermal ridges, you could

(29:39):
see the mid tarso break four out of the five
toe toes. You could see the individual joints in the toes.
On the great toe, it was like you saw two joints.
It was missing a joint, and then you saw the
final great toe joint so that you had the impression

(30:01):
of the great toe nothing. And then you saw the
bones for the next two down to the you know,
the body of the foot. And this was the first
I had seen doctor Meldrum's recasts, but this was the
first actual cast that I had seen. It just amazed

(30:26):
me the detail that was in that thing. And it
was like so much so it was looking like almost
like looking like an X ray that the X ray
machine moved and missed that little chunk of the great toe,
but everything else was intact. It was it was like
looking at an X ray almost.

Speaker 1 (30:47):
You know, the casts are a very interesting thing. And hmmm, uh,
you know some of them. I've you know, I've got
back here, I've got the Gray's Harbor back here.

Speaker 2 (31:05):
I have some others that I don't have room on
the wall for. And and to look at.

Speaker 1 (31:13):
To look at a cast, especially one that has been
either found by by yourself or that has been confirmed
by experts in the field, such as as Jeff Meldrum,
to look at a cast, you know, essentially you're looking

(31:34):
at a negative and when you look at it, there's something,
there's some quality to it that you lose from actually
seeing the print in the ground. And and I've not

(31:57):
seen a print in the ground, but I can, and
I can tell you this. I wanted very much to
see what an accurate representation of this Gray's Harbor, because
that's that's almost too perfect of a cast. So I

(32:20):
did a little experiment myself. I spent forty dollars on
some silicone rubber, and I made a mold from that cast.
And when I pulled that silicone off, when I removed that,
and I was able to look at the cast or

(32:41):
the silicone. Now I was looking at what the print
actually looked like in the ground. Granted it's it's blue,
but I was able It brings out so much more
definition and so much more or I mean, obviously, when

(33:04):
you look at you hold a cast, I mean it's
three D. But when you when you when you can
actually see what that impression looked like in the ground,
then it makes sense.

Speaker 2 (33:16):
Just to stand there and look at one of these.

Speaker 1 (33:19):
It's kind of discombobulating, but when you see what that
looked like as an impression, it is significantly more awe inspiring.

Speaker 3 (33:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I really, I don't know what to say.
It's just, you know, seeing that cast was incredible, you know,
the first one, first true one I had actually saw.

Speaker 1 (33:52):
And so I'm interested. Did they ever cast any of
the juveniles or the infants?

Speaker 3 (33:58):
No, you would have had a lay down to that flat,
and there wasn't anyone too keen to belay down there
and spend time down there casting all the footprints they
saw down there.

Speaker 1 (34:13):
So many people, you know, whether they're a weekend warrior
or a one time Hey, let's go see if we
can find something. Man, if there's one thing you're going
to put in your backpack, make sure you get your
carrying a leader of water and a bag of.

Speaker 2 (34:30):
Perfect cast. Just yeah, it's two and a half pounds
plus the weight of the water.

Speaker 1 (34:38):
So what put it in your backpack? If you find something?
What a what a perfect opportunity to be able to
cast something.

Speaker 3 (34:46):
And I'm trying to remember the name of I had
the name in my head earlier, the name of the
product they used, but it was a white not pastor
or Paris. But there's some other were Hydra Cow, Hydra.

Speaker 1 (35:01):
Cowhydril that was that's made. I mean that was used
in the dental industry.

Speaker 2 (35:07):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 1 (35:09):
The Perfect Cast brand is I mean, that's their advertisement
is it's it's either five or ten times stronger than
plaster of Paris.

Speaker 2 (35:21):
So anytime I've ever made a.

Speaker 1 (35:24):
Cast, I choose to use that. I've had I had
one person send me the the first uh the first
print of Patty back here. Somebody was very nice and
sent it to me free of charge. But it was
a very sandy mix and it was very thin, and

(35:44):
when I got it in the mail, it was it
was just crumbled to pieces.

Speaker 3 (35:48):
It was like, oh no, no, well and the good
news now just a little plug for a friend. There's
a podcast out there. David Zigan has a podcast out
there called Bigfoot Forensics, and he is an active see

(36:12):
it crime scene investigator and so he's getting some of
these older casts and looking at new casts and he
specializes in analyzing the authenticity of crime scene cast be
the footprints, handprints, tire tracks, and he's bringing that to
the Bigfoot community. And I think that's a good thing.

Speaker 1 (36:36):
That that sounds like that's a in addition to what
Jeff Meldrum brings to the table, where his more the
the anthropology and right the structural stuff the forensic side
of things, and put those two together, and you know,

(36:58):
they say there's they say there's no evidence, and yet
you know, you can find a hundred podcasts plus where
people are talking about the evidence that's been found, and
you can talk you can find on any given day
one hundred different people who are talking about their eyewitness
encounters or their class b ass puckering encounters. That to

(37:25):
say that there's no evidence, it's just.

Speaker 2 (37:28):
It's kind of maddening.

Speaker 3 (37:31):
You know.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
I think we talked a couple of days ago.

Speaker 1 (37:34):
I think I told you that I kind of rededicated
my my my podcast and and my convictions to my
first two loves, which are bigfoot in UFOs. And it's
exciting and it's great, and it's wonderful. All the stuff

(37:57):
that's out about u f those UAPs whatever new three
letter word they're calling them now for whatever reasons, all
of the attention that's being brought to that, and and
it should be I agree it should be. But to

(38:17):
have this which has as much evidence and probably even
a little bit more substantial, to just continue to be
ignored and poo pooed. And you know, I don't know,
they got whistles coming forward with you know, having worked

(38:40):
for the government or agencies and stuff like that. And
yet you know, we still have academics who have to
go to Project Zoo book because they don't want to
face the ridicule for stigma.

Speaker 3 (38:52):
Yeah yeah, I personally so if the Patterson Gimmelin film
didn't do it, I personally don't think any photo or
video or casts for that matter, are ever going to

(39:14):
amount to the proof that science is asking us for
to prove that they're a species. I mean, the deck
and to a big degree, and that's not fair. The
deck is strapped, stacked against us because other endangered species

(39:36):
or rare species, once they got the video from a
you know, from a naturalist, that's it. It's all said
and done, that species exists. But it doesn't work that
way with bigfoot. You know, we have some legitimate videos
put out by quality people, credible people, and yet it's

(40:00):
still not enough. And so, you know, I think at
some point we've got to move on. And that was
the inspiration behind my book. I've heard it, I've heard
it once. I've heard it thirty times around campfires. You know,
we've got to do something different, everybody says, But yet

(40:20):
everybody continues to take pictures, do recordings, casts, pictures of footprints.
And what I'm trying to get people to understand and
bring to the table is that as science evolves, as
most of the quote hard sciences evolved, we started with observation.

(40:43):
We started with observational science. Isaac Newton saw that apple
fall from the tree. Well he didn't then just walk
around for the next thirty to forty years pointing out
that apples fall from trees. We started doing experiments with
things falling and using that data to prove the existence

(41:08):
of gravity. And that's kind of where I see Bigfoot
research being at. We're on that precipice whereby simple, simple,
not even simple, even complex observational science isn't going to
cut it. We need to get out into the field

(41:29):
and start designing experiments and manipulating independent variables and stop
relying solely on recordings, pictures, photos. We've got to manipulate
some independent variables and get some numeric statistics and let

(41:50):
the statistics show us the answers rather than what happens now,
which right now, what it seems happens is opinions and assumptions,
and everybody gets into a pissing contest about whether it's
authentic or not real or not, and it all boils

(42:10):
down to opinions. And the problem with that is our
opinions are based on our perception what we perceive, and
what we perceive isn't always going to be reality or realistic.
What we perceive is influenced by our life experiences. Pull

(42:33):
a piece of bluegrass out and show somebody a police
at Kentucky bluegrass? Is this color green? Blue? What's this color?
You're going to get different answers from people depending on
their life experiences. And so the you know, when you
pick up a hot stick, as that signal travels up

(42:57):
your nerves, into your your spinal cord, into your up
your neck, all that until it reaches your brain is
called sensation. The second year that signal registers on your
brain and registers pain, that's called perception. And again we

(43:23):
are we are biased machines because our perception depends on
our upbringing and what people have taught us and raised us.
And you can perceive it's a cruel joke. I've seen
it done. Put putting people with their backs to the

(43:45):
fire so they can feel the heat of the fire,
and then they bring a piece of metal towards their
back till it feels real hot. Bring a piece of
metal back to their to their back until it feels hot,
kind of hazing kind of stuff. And then the next time,
you know, tell them, okay, here it comes and rather

(44:06):
than a hot, glowing ember metal piece of ice, and
they're going to scream as if they just got branded
by metal. And here's the thing about placebo. Placebo carries
physical changes. People's backs will welt up as if they've

(44:30):
actually been burned from that, and they will develop other
physical symptoms that go along with that. So my point being,
the body responds to placebo as if it really happened.
And so that's just one example of how our perceptual abilities,

(44:51):
our perception bias, our experiences about how we interpret what
we see or feel.

Speaker 1 (44:58):
Well, isn't your brain creating a physiological response to what
it is assuming is happening?

Speaker 3 (45:07):
Yes to that perception, Yes, absolutely absolutely. I don't know
if I Yeah, I did. I posted it up. I
don't have a All I've got is my personal side.
I don't have a site. You come and join that

(45:27):
kind of thing. But one of the one I posted
up an experiment whereby the guy was sitting at a table.
They had his chest covered except for a rubber arm
sticking out. Have you seen that? And then they got

(45:50):
a board between the rubber arm and his actual right arm,
and and they hit that, that rubber arm. They even
talk them through, this is rubber, you shouldn't feel this.
They hit that right arm. He feels it, right rubber arm.

(46:11):
He feels that in his actual arm, you know, and
screams out and so, yeah, perception, it's it's uh, it's
a challenge to tease out and it presents a huge
challenge to being objective in observational field research.

Speaker 2 (46:33):
Excuse me, so, you know bf r O.

Speaker 1 (46:41):
I've got a couple of questions, and I want to
ask you since you're involved with them, and it's and
it's not to throw shade at them at all.

Speaker 2 (46:51):
But I have spoke with.

Speaker 1 (46:55):
A specific BFRO investigator uh in the state of Michigan.

Speaker 2 (47:03):
And he.

Speaker 1 (47:08):
I've often heard that there is some degree of sanitation
that takes place in reports once filed, there may be
things that are omitted before it actually goes into the
BFROO website. He confirmed that for me. Does that is

(47:36):
that standard practice to your knowledge? And and if so,
is there a good reason for it or is it
specifically designed to not have to tackle.

Speaker 2 (47:51):
The weird stuff?

Speaker 3 (47:53):
Yeah? Well, I know, I know there's a spoken rule
that we don't put WU experiences, we don't put post
WU sightings on that. And in fact, that's about all
I can tell you when it comes to sanitation, because

(48:15):
I've never been like one of the investigators who go
out on a to take a report, you know, like
you saw on finding Bigfoot, when they go out and
query the person who had the siding and check out
where they had the siding and trying to determine whether

(48:37):
it was a bigfoot or not. I've never been one
of those people who do that, so I've seen it
done by one of the best. But so I honestly
don't know the answer to your question about what else

(48:58):
might be sanitized. I just know that there was a
standing policy to not include WU.

Speaker 1 (49:07):
It was there were two specific things. One was WU
and two was to downplay or minimize any kind of
overtly violent uh encounters.

Speaker 3 (49:22):
Wow, I hadn't I hadn't heard that one. But you
know now, granted I haven't had a class A what
I would call a pure class A experience. And uh,

(49:43):
the story I just told in your other story, the
other butt puckering story, I got it. It involved aggressive
behavior enough to make me feel threaten. And but I
can't say I've ever been assaulted or you know, something

(50:08):
bad happened.

Speaker 1 (50:09):
Before we get into that that other ass puckering encounter.
Having had time to deal with that and live with
it and rethink it and look back on it, and
I assume it's been a good deal of time since
it's happened. The the aggressiveness of that encounter. Do you

(50:37):
do you view it as an act of aggression intimidation
or or do you think maybe that it was something
that just was so in your face that that that's
your that was your reaction to it. Does that make sense?

Speaker 3 (50:58):
Yeah, So, the the what I call the landslide story,
or in hindsight, the bluff side bluff bluff charge story,
I don't know if i'd call it aggression, but maybe
intimidation would be a better word. And it was intimidating.

(51:22):
I mean, you know, three out of the four of
us scattered like cockroaches when the lights come on, and
only Brave Heart turned and faced the music that was
coming down the hill. So it was intimidating. But honestly,
when it first started happening, the intimidation wasn't about being

(51:47):
attacked by a sasquatch. The intimidation was about a landslide coming,
you know. I mean we were anticipating having to dodge
these big boulders rolling down the mountain, you know.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
And it's interesting you said that nothing came down other
than other than the loam, the loan. So I've got
two thoughts about that. So one, you know, the loam
could have been in addition to a rotted tree, right,
because when a tree is super rotted and dried out,

(52:22):
it almost turns powdery, you know, So you know that
could have been part of it.

Speaker 2 (52:30):
But if if there's truth to.

Speaker 1 (52:33):
Finding the print of the adult at seventeen and a
half inches and then finding numerous infant and juvenile prints,
I guess you know, like, what were the lighting conditions
at the time that.

Speaker 3 (52:51):
That happened, when the bluff charge happened. Yeah, it was
it was very dark that overcast.

Speaker 1 (53:00):
Night, so it was dark already. My thought goes to
what you thought you heard? Could that possibly have been
daddy or mama and a bunch of children just all
making all kinds of racket to me, kicking you know,

(53:24):
a bunch of a bunch of bodies kicking up the
loam into the air would make more sense than just
it coming from who god knows what.

Speaker 3 (53:33):
Sure, sure, there was a there was a cracking sense
to the tree pushover, which which lends itself to that label.
It was It wasn't like something got pushed over by
the roots. You could hear the splintering of the tree
being pushed over, and yeah, you know, as we've tried

(54:00):
to sort it out. The four of us have talked
on multiple occasions separately. You know, it could have been
mom or dad, or just mom and or mom and
dad just kicking up the leaves making all kinds of sound.
I think what happened was we just happened to stop

(54:26):
either at the nursery or the playground. I think that
plateau about ten foot down I think was either a
nursery or a playground, and just by coincidence, we happened
to stop real close enough to it that they didn't
want us around it. The kind of the irony of

(54:50):
it was that it made us stay. If they hadn't
done that, we wouldn't have stayed. We were just walked
going by and walked on down the Dell Deer trail.
But it made us stay an extra half hour trying
to figure out just what happened. So it didn't quite
go the way it was intended intended to go from

(55:13):
a Bigfoot perspective. But yeah, that that brings me back
to your question about aggressiveness and versus intimidation. You know,
I think that these creatures from other reports, if they

(55:38):
really wanted to hurt us or injure us. I think
it would be a done deal. They seem Yeah, they
seem amazingly accurate in their ability to throw things, you know,
push things over, and so you know, I think it's

(56:01):
more of a scare tactic than a you know, a
desire to attack per se. I think they just want
to be left alone.

Speaker 1 (56:15):
So so John, like, once you once you decided, once
you've had your experiences and and you've decided to write
this book Grasping Sasquatch, and when you start getting into
the scientific stuff. Okay, so you know, everybody's going out

(56:36):
with night vision. Everybody's going out with gimbals attached to
the shoulder pads of their backpacks with a GoPro on it,
you know, facing behind them.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
You know, i'llah uh Scott Carpenter, West Carpenter.

Speaker 3 (56:57):
You know.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
You you've got people that are going out to and
hardwood bats and whacken trees with it. You got people
that are you know, doing hoops and doing screams in
the night. Like you were saying earlier, We've got these

(57:18):
people that are there, you know, and for the average
for the average Joe, those are those are the only
things that are really within reach for us to try
to elicit a response. Right, some some people are going
out there. All they want to do is here a
whoop or a tree knock or a howl, and that's

(57:40):
going to satisfy him. Right, They're gonna have something to
tell the grandkids. But then, you know, and I don't
take anything away from that because I think all of that,
whatever level, even even the level that I'm at by
talking to people who have had experiences, I think those
are all valid arts to putting the puzzle together. Any

(58:04):
any one of them that's not being done isn't helping,
right right, AI is not helping. AI is not helping.
With giving people the opportunity to create trailcam photographs of
things that don't exist. You know, those things are hurting
the problem or creating a problem and hurting the topic.

(58:27):
But like when you talk about creating and collecting data
and information and numbers and being able to crunch things
together to point what what kind of stuff are you
talking about that is different than what the average Joe

(58:49):
is going out and doing.

Speaker 3 (58:50):
Yeah, not much. It's not so much different stuff. It's
taking what we're doing with that stuff one step for
I mean, the creature is obviously elusive, and I hope
I don't offend anybody when I say creature. It could
be a creature. God only knows what it could be.

Speaker 4 (59:13):
But huh, yeah, yeah, But so yeah, it's a slippery
slope downhill.

Speaker 3 (59:25):
If you're going out there and you're targeting the being itself,
because they are elusive, you're not likely to get that
photograph that you're looking for or that video. But through expeditions,

(59:46):
I can only think of one expedition that I was on,
and it was just raining so hard you really couldn't
get out to do much. But I can only think
of one expedition that I've been on where somebody didn't
find something, be it a footprint or footprints, you know, yeah,

(01:00:12):
be it stone claques, be it howls, be it tree knocks.
The phenomena that Bigfoot produces is much more prevalent and
available than Bigfoot itself. And so you know what's one

(01:00:34):
of the main criticisms take tree knocks, Well, how do
you know that that's just not humans making those knocks
with their baseball backs or whatever the case may be.
So you could set up an experiment with tree knocks.
So you go to an area maybe in the past

(01:00:58):
where you know you've gotten tree knocks in reply, and
you set up an experimental protocol where you make you
decide in advance you're going to make a single tree
knock or two tree knocks or three. I don't see
much point going beyond three, and you make those tree knocks,

(01:01:26):
and then you wait a predetermined amount of time, say
fifteen to twenty minutes, and then you if you didn't
get anything within fifteen to twenty minutes, you record zero.

(01:01:46):
You can make another tree knock in that area, or
you go to yet another hot spot that you believe
is a hotspot for tree knocks and follow that procedure,
so you know you're tapping, and preferably this is done

(01:02:09):
in a deep, deeper forest area. This isn't done from
your campsite. This is done where you go deep into
the woods and you basically keep track of how many
non responses you got no tree knocks back, and how

(01:02:30):
many tree knocks you got back for each of your
own tree knocks, and so in essence, you're measuring bigfootness
or Bigfoot's tendency to knock on trees in that area.

(01:02:51):
Then you go to a park where you know, there's
no Bigfoot where you know, all you have is human element,
maybe a little and some of these small towns they've
got a little park in the plaza with some picnic benches,
maybe a grandstand and grass. And you go downtown and

(01:03:17):
you make tree knocks, and you follow that same protocol
you did for when you were in the bigfoot area,
but now you're in the human area, and what you're
tapping into is the essence of human behavior and response

(01:03:39):
to a tree knock, as opposed to when you were
up in the woods, deep in the woods. You are
tapping into the essence of bigfoot behavior. So you keep
track of how many how many responses you get back

(01:04:00):
from the human area compared to no responses, and you
do that the same bigfoot and then you compare your numbers.

Speaker 1 (01:04:11):
Now, is this something like in your mind's eye, is
this something that could become automated? Because like so to me,
I'm thinking, okay, you're going to have to do it
to see how active they are in the morning hours
and then midday hours and then you know, around dusk

(01:04:38):
and then again in the in the dark of deep night.
You know, so you know, like when you know, going
back to the medical profession. You know, if they're if
they're doing studies on thousand people, two thousand people, ten

(01:05:02):
thousand people, you know, whether it's you know, the efficacy
of a vaccine or or whatever. You know, then you
have then you always have the placebo, which is the
control for you know, for nothingness basically just I mean,

(01:05:24):
I get what you're saying, and I agree with you
one hundred percent that that would be the best way
to do it. But how in the world would you
manage manpower and being able to.

Speaker 2 (01:05:37):
Do that consistently all all times of the day.

Speaker 3 (01:05:45):
And you know, I mean, yeah, you need a team
number one automated automating. It is an interesting proposition because
depending on how refined you want to get, you know,
does does a piece of wood? How many times can

(01:06:08):
you hit a piece of wood against another piece of
wood for it to make the same resonance sound that it?
All right?

Speaker 1 (01:06:19):
That's the best you could do is take and and
I've I've gotten pushback on this from from some people.

Speaker 2 (01:06:24):
And but you take.

Speaker 1 (01:06:27):
Two old hardwood baseball bats, you know, and whack those
two together. If you if you hit the wrong tree,
if the bark isn't right, you know it. It's yeah,

(01:06:50):
it's not gonna sound like what you're hearing off in
the distance. And and we brought this up while we
were talking the other night, and that's why I kind
of brought up.

Speaker 2 (01:07:02):
My Bonker theory that you know in this I guess
maybe this extends into the woo a little bit.

Speaker 1 (01:07:12):
But you know, I've I've done a number of uh,
haunted location investigations, and and something that you hear a
lot in a haunted location is you'll hear. You'll hear knocks,

(01:07:32):
whether it be on the wall, or it may sound
like it's coming from a table or a credenza, you
know that's off in the corner. But you'll hear knocks,
You'll hear, you'll you'll see, excuse me, you'll see. And
I'm not talking about orbs in that you're taking a

(01:07:54):
flash photo at night in a dusty room where you're
getting the dust reflect the light. I'm talking about like
a legitimate class a orb that that is self lit
and and comes out of nowhere and then goes away.

Speaker 2 (01:08:12):
You know, how many people have you heard.

Speaker 1 (01:08:16):
Tell encounters where they're seeing lights in the woods, you know,
not not fireflies, but orbs of light in the woods,
either pre or post Bigfoot experience, the knocking again, knocking
on the walls. You know, people talk about mind speak,
and I mean, I get that there's a difference, but

(01:08:40):
how much of a difference is there between that and
getting an EVP recording of a voice that shows up
on a tape but was not audible to the people
that were in the area when when it was captured. So,
you know, it makes me seriously ponder the idea that,

(01:09:00):
you know, since nobody has nobody has any photographs or
video evidence of a sasquatch with a large tree, a
large limb of a tree smacking another tree to make
that noise, what if that sound is a peripheral effect

(01:09:23):
of them coming into our perception, our ability to perceive them.
You know, I'm not saying that Bigfoot are, you know,
the Golden Retrievers for extraterrestrials, That's not what I'm saying.
They might be a doubt that they are. But you know,
so much of so much of the paranormal has things

(01:09:47):
that overlap with Bigfoot experiences that it makes me wonder,
I mean, are they related not in the sense that
they're all of the same or come from the same
but are these things coming into our perception in the
same way.

Speaker 3 (01:10:08):
I think that's an interesting hypothesis. I'm sitting here trying
to think how you could tease that out experimentally. You're
kind of like when an airplane or a jet breaks
the sound barrier, you hear the sonic boom, kind of
like if if they're coming, if Bigfoot's popping through a

(01:10:31):
dimension or popping into vision, could that tree notck be that?

Speaker 1 (01:10:38):
And it also it also plays into another crackpot theory
of mine is you know, you hear people talk about
the cloaking ability, right, You hear people that don't necessarily
say cloaking, but they'll they'll have an eyes on and
the bigfoot will turn and take one stone up away,

(01:11:00):
and then they're just they're gone. You know, they've blended
so well that they're just not they can't be noticed anymore.

Speaker 3 (01:11:09):
Mm hm.

Speaker 1 (01:11:11):
You know, I was explaining to you from a early
episode of mine where I believe that I got zapped
by a sound that was just earthshaking. It was so loud,
but then my recording equipment didn't catch anything other than

(01:11:31):
this tiny little who And then we started talking about infrasound,
and if if these things infrasound seems to be a
pretty big topic when it comes to these things, and
you know, even even when you go to Scott Nelson
breaking down the Sierra sounds, you know, he talks about

(01:11:54):
their vocal modality and and the attributes that they have
vocally and being able to hit frequencies that are above
the human range and well below the human range. So
if they can produce an infrasonic frequency, what is the

(01:12:14):
possibility that the frequency or vibration that they can produce
from their vocals could alter our ability to perceive them
through our eyes, Because, like we were talking, it talked
about some gentlemen that did an experiment in Stonehenge with

(01:12:37):
different frequencies bouncing off the monolithic stones. And the one
guy he had to quit the experiment. He couldn't go
on because it was making him ill. But one of
the things that he was talking about the bad side
effects were that his vision was becoming blurred and he
was getting very confused about about us aroundings.

Speaker 2 (01:13:02):
You know, and if.

Speaker 1 (01:13:04):
Maybe they're not cloaking, maybe they're just able to affect
us in a manner that makes us not able to
perceive them as well as we should.

Speaker 3 (01:13:17):
Or maybe they can do that through telepathy as well. Yeah,
I mean, I think these are good questions to answer,
to take a look at and try and figure out experimentally.
To the infrasound point you're you're probably aware of it,

(01:13:40):
maybe not all your listeners are. But elephants can communicate
ten miles distant from each other using infrasound that travels
under the ground, and then the distant herd can pick
up that infrasound on the paths of their feet and

(01:14:01):
they can communicate with each other ten miles apart using infrasound.
Zoo keepers have to be rotated out of their zoo
their responsibilities for cleaning the elephants, enclosure and washing elephants

(01:14:23):
because they produce so much infrasound. If these keepers are
around it for too long, they start getting sick. Were
you aware?

Speaker 2 (01:14:34):
Were you aware that they're I believe it was in Africa.

Speaker 1 (01:14:41):
There was a small community that the elephants had not
been in that area for a long while. For whatever reason,
they came back, and during the time that the elephants

(01:15:06):
started to propagate that area again, suicides in that small
community started to skyrocket.

Speaker 3 (01:15:16):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:15:18):
And they determined that the cause was the constant exposure
to the infrasound from the herd of elephants.

Speaker 3 (01:15:31):
Interesting. So, I've never seen it, but I'm told that
chronic infrasound can turn our insides into gelatine, a gelatinous
like tissue from the structured tissue that it is. I
don't know if that's true or an old lives tale. Yeah,

(01:15:54):
but one of the tests of that. And I discovered
this when I was doing my research. You know what
else makes infrasound? Trucks eighteen wheelers. The sound of their
tread and their motor on the road, for these long

(01:16:16):
haul truckers produce infrasound. And you know, it would be
interesting to do a study, even if it's just epidemiological,
and look at the health issues that arise from truckers
and see how it affects different organ systems in the body.

(01:16:39):
Because certainly the elephant tenders, you know that's having that infrasounding,
is having impact on their health, impact on their organs.
But we've never not that I've gone out looking, but
I've never heard of anything like that with truck drivers.
But I do know it's a fact that that that

(01:17:03):
the eighteen wheelers produce infrasound.

Speaker 2 (01:17:06):
That's interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:17:08):
I can say from a from a personal note, I
did a short stint in my life almost three years
to the day, where I was an overnight dispatch manager
for an expediting company, and I can tell you that

(01:17:32):
the the healthcare, for the healthcare that the company provided
for the the truckers, the drivers themselves, was significantly better
and more encompassing than the normal office workers.

Speaker 3 (01:17:57):
Interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:17:58):
And the health problems that that these that these over
the road truckers had was astounding. I don't know, I
don't know that I ever saw maybe one or two
of them that would come into our crosstock that actually

(01:18:19):
looked like healthy people.

Speaker 3 (01:18:22):
Interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:18:23):
Yeah, fast food, sitting ten hours a day, no exercise,
all all all valid things. But I never would have
considered the possibility of them having uh health issues from
from INFRAT.

Speaker 2 (01:18:40):
That's interesting.

Speaker 3 (01:18:42):
And and infra sound zapping again, yeah, it seems to
happen to a fair number of people. But again, all
we've got is the experiential evidence, and there's's got to
be some way to harness some other kind of data

(01:19:06):
and it's and don't get me wrong. I'm not saying
that observational experiential evidence needs to be set aside. Observational
and experiential evidence is the foundation upon which all sciences
are built. Observational science points to the experimental science and

(01:19:29):
tells it where it needs to go and what experiments
do you run need to run? And so they we've
got to work more hand in hand with each other
and let the observational and experiential science kind of point
the finger or guide us to frame up the experimental science.

(01:19:52):
The experiential science is the foundation, and now we've got
to frame up the house of Bigfoot using experimental science.
That's a pretty tough sell though, and I'm not going
to go into the politics or economics of that, but
it's hard to convince people to do something different. People

(01:20:17):
get into doing what they've been taught and what they know,
and it's hard to change. It becomes hard to change
that mentality.

Speaker 1 (01:20:26):
Well, especially especially if you're somebody who has an area
that if you do X, Y and Z, you'll get A,
B and C to happen. And you're never going to
change that person and tell them, Okay, stop doing X,
Y Z, now I want you to do qrs because

(01:20:47):
they can. They can invite any one of their friends,
they can invite any any expedition member, any any team
out there and say Okay, I'm going to do this,
and you're going to get that, you know. And and
many times they're able to do that. You know, why
would they want to give up being able to get

(01:21:08):
a response or what they consider to be a response,
and in order to change and and maybe not get
anything anymore, you know? So, I mean, I get the
pushback on not wanting to change, But then then you
run into people that are so steadfast in their belief

(01:21:29):
that they are the only one that knows the right
thing to do. And you know, you're going to come
in here with you know, a couple of new fangled
scientific ideas, and they're going to be like, now that's
horse shit, You're we're.

Speaker 2 (01:21:44):
Not going to do that. I know, I know, I know,
Well you don't, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:21:50):
And unfortunately, more times than not, these guys are weekend
warriors who you know, are doing nothing more than strapping
a grow GoPro to their and walking out into Metro
park someplace. You know, Yeah, where do you are we
any closer?

Speaker 2 (01:22:08):
Are we any closer?

Speaker 3 (01:22:13):
I must admit I'm probably guilty of that. I'm probably
one of the guys that you just described that knows.
I'm sure there are times when my energy comes off
that way, simply because I know we've been spinning our wheels.
We're coming up on fifty years with the photographs, with

(01:22:39):
the footprints, with the cast, and we're no closer now
than we were back in Patty's day, you know. And
so when you do look, you know, I gave the
example of physics and gravity. You know, the hard sciences,

(01:23:01):
they don't just stick with the observations. They use the
observations as a springboard to run experiments and do experiments
based on those observations. And so I got to say,
I know that until we move to a more experimental model,

(01:23:24):
we're just going to continue to spin our wheels the
way we have been for the last forty to fifty years,
because we're not getting any closer to evidence that science
would accept. We've already been taught from the Patterson Gimlin
film that video photographs casts pictures of prints, that's going

(01:23:51):
to be rejected by science. It's been done once, and
so I think we really believe we've got how to
give scientists, the true scientific community, something they can get
their teeth into. And what they can get their teeth
into is numbers. The universal language of science is math.

(01:24:17):
And so we've got to we've got to it's upon us,
as the ones trying to prove things, the responsibility to
to get that proof in a in a format or
a form that science can digest and understand. That onus

(01:24:40):
is on us. And so you know, we've got to
figure out a way to get to some numbers to
you know, we've got to be able to say things like, yeah,
you know, there were significantly more bigfoot knocks in the
there were significantly more knocks in the in the bigfoot

(01:25:05):
area when we did tree ox and when we did
them in the human error area. So you know, if
you get that kind of finding, repeat it, you're ruling
out human intervention being the primary source of those tree
knocks back in the woods. And and but you know,

(01:25:26):
and here's the t test. You know, here's the statistical
analysis that tells you there was a significant difference between
the responses from humans and the responses from the bigfoot area.
So you know, I think we've got to be able
to give them mathematic and statistical data, because that's going

(01:25:51):
to be the language that they speak, you know, the bigfoot.
The big push is, of course, get get a full genome,
you know, the DNA. Well, I'm not going to get
into the Ketchum study, but that that wasn't good enough
by a lot of counts. A lot of other hair

(01:26:16):
sample studies in other countries have been done and it's
always been a known species. Okay, so.

Speaker 2 (01:26:29):
But the reason comes back and showing human.

Speaker 1 (01:26:35):
Yeah, but you know again I I don't know, we
haven't we haven't discussed this at all prior or during
As far as what you think, they are more more
akin to a wild animal, more akin to something closer
related to us. I'll be mine first. Simply from my

(01:26:59):
ex experience of talking to people who have had eyes
on encounters or ass puckering Class B experiences, these things
seem to be very intelligent.

Speaker 3 (01:27:19):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:27:20):
Can they balance a checkbook and things like that? No,
but in their environment they seem to be very very smart.

Speaker 2 (01:27:31):
You know, I wonder.

Speaker 1 (01:27:35):
I think that these things are a branch of humanity
that exists alongside of us and has evolved in its
own way. We chose the route of concrete and civilization.
They chose the route of mother nature and living out

(01:28:02):
under the stars. H But I my gut tells me
and and I think a lot of it relies on
Native American uh oral tradition about these things that that
they are.

Speaker 2 (01:28:21):
Much closer to being a human.

Speaker 3 (01:28:25):
Like yeah, well that's a short conversation for me. Insufficient
data to determine, is my answer.

Speaker 2 (01:28:36):
But you've got to have a gut though, don't you.
I know, you're a doctor.

Speaker 1 (01:28:39):
I know you have a medical background and and and
with that comes scientific you know, I got to have proof,
but you got to have a gut feeling, don't you.

Speaker 3 (01:28:53):
Honestly? You know, I mean when I talk casually, I
frequently used word words like beast or animal. You know,
that's what comes into my vocabulary naturally. But honestly, I'm
not sure. You know, it seems to me that that

(01:29:15):
the opinions about what they are are related to the
weight and authority and celebrity of the person advancing that theory.
And so you know, I think the predominating theory is

(01:29:36):
some kind of hominid, you know, relative hominid, whatever the
case may be. Certainly, doctor Meldrum has been highly influential
in that work. And and so I can't when I
look at woo phenomena, I look at some of the

(01:29:58):
other theories, nothing else has been studied in that much
detail or with that much rigor as the anthropological anthropomorphical
data out there. So how does just the volume of
that research, that the fact that there's been more research

(01:30:20):
in that one area compared to other areas, how much
does that cause people to lean towards that opinion, you know,
and and not to mention you know, the challenge is
when you get into paranormal research. You know, the it's

(01:30:45):
a lot more intangible than a footprint or a footcast,
and so that presents a unique challenge.

Speaker 1 (01:30:53):
But and even that in itself, you know, a paranormal
experience going in, you know, going into a haunted location,
you're what you're perceiving, what you're experiencing is you're you're
forming an opinion of it based on how you grew up,
what your religious background was, and and.

Speaker 2 (01:31:16):
Exactly what you're talking about. So yeah, I mean.

Speaker 3 (01:31:20):
So honestly, I I really I really don't know. I
really don't know because I can't so many so many
flesh and blood researchers just off hand dismiss woo and
paranormal experiences, and I think that's I think that's wrong.

(01:31:44):
That's like, you want to explore something and you gotta circle,
you gotta circle this big that that needs to be explored.
But because that circle includes things that we can't pop
possibly fathom or is out of our world if you
we're just going to take and look at this much

(01:32:07):
of that circle. And so we're doing I think we
do selective sampling so that we don't necessarily get the
full picture that's out there.

Speaker 1 (01:32:19):
You know, which really really gets to me because you know,
since since twenty seventeen, UFOs, UAPs, extraterrestrials, ultraterrestrials, interdimensionals have
been almost worn out. It's so part of everyday conversation. Now, yeah,

(01:32:42):
I mean, at least in my life it is. But
you know, and the news and you know, different you know,
different outlets.

Speaker 2 (01:32:53):
You know, if that's not.

Speaker 1 (01:32:56):
That shit crazy that those things have become common to
talk about, But yet this is such still a taboo thing,
and it makes me wonder, is it because you know,
is I hate conspiracy theories but I love them. You know,

(01:33:17):
It's like are these things too close to being us
that they'll never They'll never entertain the idea that there
could be a wild, feral human living in these woods,
because then what do we have to give them rights?
Do we have to protect them and give them a
space to live? And can we not encroach on their
property anymore? And do we have to stop logging? And
who the hell is gonna want to buy camping equipment

(01:33:39):
when they find out there's a nine hundred pound, you know,
ten foot tall, massive beast out there that could tear
you from limb to limb if you get in. Then
their babies, you know, all these different things, and it's like,
when you say it out loud, it's like, it's fucking
crazy shit, you know. I wish I wouldn't have said that, but.

Speaker 2 (01:33:58):
Yeah, I don't.

Speaker 3 (01:34:00):
It's hard to know. It's hard to know. It's hard
to get an objective opinion as well, because that's what
mostly we've got is opinions. I met somebody who I'll
keep anonymous, but he's been doing research for a long
long time, and he told me that bigfoot is known

(01:34:23):
as unidentified species number seven according to government documents. Yeah,
so he said, well, you know, the government knows. Because
I asked him, what, because he has some incredible footage,
why don't you share some of this footage? Said, well,

(01:34:43):
we know the government knows, and we know the government
has a body. You know, it's unidentified species number seven.
So what's you know? I just do my research for myself.
What's the point of proving it to the masses at all?
And so he doesn't some of the most incredible bigfoot

(01:35:06):
film I've ever seen and most convincing, but he doesn't
bring it to the public's eye because there's no benefit
to doing so for him, because all it would bring
would be criticism and ridicule. And you know how with

(01:35:29):
observational research being the gold standard right now, it debates
and arguments still do come down to personal opinions and
assumptions because we don't have numeric data that we can

(01:35:49):
analyze and have that data inform the answers to our questions.
All we've got is opinions, some better informed than others.
But there's not much statistical analysis out there on these
things to answer these questions. Look like you wanted to

(01:36:09):
say something there.

Speaker 1 (01:36:10):
Well, it just it makes me want to go back
to the subject of DNA. All right, So say you
get a tissue sample. Say you get you know, you know,
something that got hung up on a piece of barbed
wire or something where you've got you've got hair, you've
got follicles, you've got a piece of living tissue, you

(01:36:36):
know that is relatively fresh. Do you think it's possible
that you could ever get an objective.

Speaker 2 (01:36:50):
Look at that?

Speaker 1 (01:36:52):
Do you think that is there is there any is
there any chance that that would that would be looked
at by whatever company you send it to for DNA,
that you would ever get an honest answer?

Speaker 3 (01:37:07):
Yeah. Well, I've heard story after story after story of
sending tissue out only for it to be lost or
destroyed somehow. But I know, and I don't even know

(01:37:28):
the name of the company. I don't know if this
person would want it to be announced, But through my network,
I do know a company out there, of a company
out there that stays on the down low about doing
genetic analysis, but is a genetic analysis lab that will

(01:37:54):
reportedly give you an objective result. You know, Melba in
some discussions about herst HEARST stuff, you know, there's a
lot of intrigue about what happened to her data. And

(01:38:17):
and so on and so forth. So you know, and
I think her studies raised the question of once it's
out of your hands, if you're sending it to an
external lab, you can't control what that lab does with
that that sample, and therefore you know know whether it's

(01:38:43):
a valid finding or not. And and so you just
about either got to know a very reputable DNA lab
or be a DNA analyst yourself, you know, to to
to get at the hard answers. As long as we're
talking DNA, I guess I'll take a shot, not take

(01:39:05):
a shot, but bring up the latest what panacea, which
seems to be environmental DNA. Everybody's getting wound up over
environmental DNA after Daniel in England, you know, found some

(01:39:29):
in some ancient ape DNA in one of the forests,
and that's cool, and that's incredible. The problem with environmental DNA, though,
is you can't produce a complete genome, so again you
can only get part of the information, and you're missing

(01:39:50):
a very critical part of it. So you know, as
I understand it, doctor Ketcham is starting yet another study.
That's what I understand is she's collecting new samples again.

(01:40:12):
So maybe that'll come up better. The gentleman out of
North Carolina, Darby norcutt Yea, is also doing that study.
So I don't know what those studies are going to
prove or disprove or not. I just obviously I'm biased

(01:40:41):
because of my training as a psychologist, but I think
sooner or later psychologic science is going to have to
be part of the answer. You know, you can't You
can see the impact of a feeling the behavior or
from a feeling, but you can't directly measure a feeling. Okay,

(01:41:05):
you can see the impact of intelligence, but you know,
we had to make up intelligence tests for humans to
get an IQ score to tap into intelligence. And just
as a sidebar, one of the interesting things when I
was doing my research for my book, there's a lot

(01:41:26):
of species specific, atovistic, inbred genetic behaviors that mimic intelligence
and don't require the higher order gray matter processing that
intelligence takes. Be it tribalism. I didn't even know that

(01:41:49):
tribalism was a It was genetically kind of encoded into
our DNA. But it's an ativistic behavior a to vistic
meaning species specific kind of programming in US. I wish
I don't have I can't get into my file, but

(01:42:12):
there's I've got a list of about fifteen or twenty
other things, territoriality, hunger, play that that could explain things
before intelligence. I'm not saying I don't think they're intelligence.

(01:42:32):
I'm saying we've got to rule out other things before we,
you know, before we say for sure they're intelligent, because
because a lot of other species specific behaviors can look
like intelligence and not be intelligence. That kind of got

(01:42:55):
me off track, so general or later. Yeah, So in
psychology we've been able to You can't you can't directly
measure or quantify intelligence, emotions, but yet psychology has been
able to develop instrumentation to put some numbers on those

(01:43:18):
and get some hard numeric data on that and measure
the impact of behavior or measure the behavior associated with
those concepts. And I think that's part of what makes
psychology ideal to study bigfoot, because like intelligence, like other

(01:43:43):
specific species specific behaviors, you can't love or emotions. You
can see the effect of them, the behavioral manifestations of them,
but you can't measure it directly. And that's what we're
trying to do with bigfoot. It's hard for us to

(01:44:06):
get a bigfoot body or carcass and measure what's going
on in their nervous system directly. So we offer infer
certain abilities based on behaviors compared to humans. And you know,
for some of these behaviors, there are there are ways

(01:44:28):
we can quantify and measure those things much in the
same way that we didn't know about them in humans.
We can use a similar process to get closer to
the core thing we're wanting to measure. And so and

(01:44:50):
even if we got a body, and if it's truly scientific,
that's not going to allow us to then say, Okay,
so now we know that it's bigfoot making the tree knox,
and we know it's bigfoot making the whoops, and we
know it's bigfoots building these structures. There's going to be

(01:45:12):
a tendency to want to say that because in a
lot of ways, we put the cart before the horse,
because we know about all these things, we're attributing them
to Bigfoot. Therefore, when we prove bigfoot, all I think
people are expecting that to fall in line scientifically, proving

(01:45:34):
bigfoot via an autopsy or a body is just the
beginning of the process. We're still going to have to
link all these phenomenas scientifically to Bigfoot, because if we don't,
we're still going to be Yeah, now we've proven bigfoot,
but that's all we've proven. We haven't proven that they

(01:45:54):
do X, Y and Z, because no one's done. All
that's been is observational research about that. And in fact,
as you said, not much video out there on tree knocks,
but it's making a tree dock or stone knox or whoops.
Janie Carter, I don't know if you recognize her name, Okay,

(01:46:19):
Jennis Carter is a good friend of mine, and when
we were talking about tree knocks one time, she says,
they've got trees that are hollowed out, and what they're doing,
like you would with a flute or a piccolo, they're
blowing across that opening to make that sound. I think

(01:46:44):
tongue clicks and teeth clicks amplified by using hands like
a megaphone are coming increasingly in favor to explain the
sound of tree knocks.

Speaker 2 (01:46:58):
But you know, so like you know, creating an additional
resonance to the sound.

Speaker 3 (01:47:05):
Uh huh. But we're just doing you know. No one,
to my knowledge, no one's keeping very good track of
all this stuff. I've never been on the flats I've
been offered, but it seems like quite a bit to
get into from what I understand. So we've got to

(01:47:30):
move to a technology that's going to allow us to
better quantify these phenomena as we have with human beings
in order to speak really to what's going on. And
for me, that's experimentation. It's much more readily available. It's

(01:47:55):
not that tough. The toughest thing about experimental design in
statistics is the statistical part. But if you take the
time to get a statistical package, it's not that tough
to learn. And so we've got to there's got to

(01:48:15):
be a shift, I guess in addition to observational science,
we need to increase the amount of experimental science going on.
And you use the observational science to guide us what
we need to experiment with, be it tree knocks, be

(01:48:37):
it howls or hoops. You know your notion. I think
in my book, maybe it's been so long since I
read it. You know, once you read it the first
fourteen times, adding a kind of all blends together. But
you know, one of the phenomena I've experienced and heard
reported a lot is hearing a tree knock? As soon

(01:49:05):
as you arrive on site. You pull into the parking
lot of an habituation area and you get out of
your car, and before you know it, you hear a
tree knock. Now your idea of that them signaling or
being a result not signaling, but being a result of

(01:49:26):
their presence popping into that area, if you will, I mean,
I think that's fascinating. I think that's an interesting hypothesis
to look at. You know, in my book, the experiment
I describe is different alternating different vehicles, types of vehicles,

(01:49:49):
and different gender driving drivers in that vehicle to see
if that makes a difference in whether you get a
tree knock when you arrive on site. You know, are
they responding to trucks arriving on site and care less

(01:50:10):
about little cubes and you know that kind of thing,
or is it happening because a male or a female
lant it, you know, just just came onto site. And
and so what why do we get tree knocks when
the first person arrives onto site? Why is that an

(01:50:30):
ongoing phenomena that could be readily studied through an experimental
design To look at that So it's about stirring enough interest.
And I guess thinking about it in that way rather

(01:50:50):
than just taking it for granted. You know. I mean,
at this point, a lot of people I think just
take for granted that that was a big foot knocking. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:51:00):
Well, unfortunately, I don't think. I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:51:03):
I think you're going to have a lot easier time
finding somebody who's going to be excited about going into
the woods doing a whoop or a howl or a
wood knock trying to get something to come back, versus
the amount of effort that it's going to take to
get the kind of hard science and the numbers and
the data that you're talking about needing to move this forward.

Speaker 3 (01:51:24):
Boy, havn't I learned that? John. That's the reason I
stopped continuing with my podcast and my YouTube channel because
it was such a tough sell. And you know, I

(01:51:44):
don't think people are ready.

Speaker 1 (01:51:46):
Yeah, well, sir, we're up at two hours here. We
got a wild hurt because of technical difficulties, but I
think we got a really good solid show here.

Speaker 3 (01:52:01):
Do me a favor.

Speaker 2 (01:52:02):
Let everybody know again the name of your book and
where they can get it.

Speaker 3 (01:52:06):
Sure, the name of my book is Grasping Sasquatch, Grasping
Sasquatch Prepping for scientific field research. And it's two books
in one book one and what two, but they're all

(01:52:27):
bound together and they're available in at Hanger Publishing, Hanger
one Publishing, and on Amazon. Very good.

Speaker 1 (01:52:41):
And the name of your YouTube videos are Grasping Sasquatch
as well. You said what thirty two episodes?

Speaker 3 (01:52:49):
Thirty six episodes Grasping Sasquatch Stories and Science.

Speaker 1 (01:52:54):
So is the those thirty six episodes are they? Are
they bound to your book in uh, as far as
what you're talking about.

Speaker 3 (01:53:04):
Yes, some very tightly, some a little more loosely, but yes,
the book was the foundation for every episode. And and
so you know, in the first part of the book
we haven't talked much about it, but especially given that
we're doing observational research primarily and we're dealing with perception

(01:53:27):
and our perception will be impacted by fight flight. In
the first half of that book, I teach people how
to learn to modulate their fight flight response and stay
calm in the face of what otherwise might be a
traumatic kind of experience. It's the techniques I've used as
a psychologist to treat PTSD, but you're using those in

(01:53:52):
this case to prevent panic and prevent PTSD by reprogram
program having that response to certain scenarios. And that's that
in psychological knowledge is in the first book, and then
the second book is about developing and doing experimentation using

(01:54:13):
experimental design and statistical analysis.

Speaker 2 (01:54:18):
Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure talking with you.

Speaker 3 (01:54:23):
Pleasures all.

Speaker 2 (01:54:25):
Your show is still active on Untold Radio Network.

Speaker 3 (01:54:29):
And on YouTube, yes and on YouTube yep.

Speaker 2 (01:54:33):
All right, sir, thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (01:54:36):
Well, thank you. I appreciate it very much.

Speaker 2 (01:54:39):
Eric, it's been a pleasure.

Speaker 3 (01:54:41):
Pleasure's mind up.

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Grasping Sasquatch With John Baranchok ep187

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