September 1, 2024 • 65 mins
How did Naomi stumble into one of the most defining experiences of her life? In this episode Rebecca gets the scoop on Naomi's (scenic) route to grad school as well as the good, the bad, and the unexpected that happened along the way. They discuss Naomi's inner struggles over combining motherhood and grad school, the impact on her children, as well as the activism she found at this intersection in her life.
Along the way, Naomi explains some of the distinguishing features of advanced degrees such as time to degree, how students are typically funded, when prestige matters (and when it doesn't), and a host of other important things to consider when deciding which program is right for you--or whether the reality of grad school will be worth the benefits.
As Naomi discovered, success in graduate school involves much more than just good grades and perfect attendance. Navigating the politics of graduate school can be as complex as the coursework itself. As for any institution, universities are minefields of gender dynamics, academic hierarchies, and unspoken rules. With personal anecdotes, she reveals the importance of networking, the ups and downs of "passing," and, ultimately, her reflection on where her seven years of grad school have ultimately brought her.
Links we mentioned in the show (or should have):
Graduate Study for the Twenty-First Century: How to Build an Academic Career in the Humanities (G. Semenza)
The Professor Is In (Karen Kelsky)
Academia is a Cult (TEDx Talk by Karen Kelsky)
Outline of Academic Disciplines (Wikipedia)
Dear Committee Members (Julie Schumacher)
The Shakespeare Requirement (Julie Schumacher)
Thanks for listening! Connect with us via
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- Instagram: @uncoveredlifebeyond
- Email: uncoveredlifebeyond@gmail.com
- Website: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2171591
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
This is.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Rebecca, and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path Along the
way, we've uncovered a fewinsights we want to share with
fellow travelers.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up, we are here to cheeryou on and assure you that the
best is yet to come.
Welcome to Uncovered Life.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Beyond.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Hello everyone.
Welcome back to Uncovered LifeBeyond.
This is Naomi.
This is Rebecca.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
So today we have Naomi in the hot seat and I'm
kind of excited about this.
We're going to talk all aboutgraduate school Me too.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Hopefully I won't get too triggered.
School Me too.
Hopefully I won't get tootriggered, because you know,
grad school is wonderful andalso, as I look back on it,
there are lots of triggeringmoments too.
So hopefully, hang with usthrough the nuance.
Well, hopefully everyone willhear the nuance in that and not
just take one, one of thosesides of it, because it was both
(01:43):
awesome and awful.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Yeah, I believe it.
I believe it.
So, to start us off, tell us alittle bit about where you were
at with your life and familywhen you started grad school.
How did that influence yourdecision and some of the things
(02:06):
you did or didn't do?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Okay, well, first let me say that in retrospect I
realized I did everything thewrong way and the fact that I've
landed where I am.
I feel I count myself asextremely lucky to have landed
here, because I mean and I thinkthis is a really common thing
for, especially for those of uswho are first gen or not sure
(02:29):
you know what questions to ask,not sure you know what our
options are and and so yeah, sojust putting that disclaimer out
, please don't anybody take mystory as a guide.
Learn from my mistakes, butalso just know that I'm not
(02:50):
telling my story with any sensethat this is a path anyone
should follow, but I will behappy to share what I learned
and what I wish I had known Wellon that note, though I think
for many of us who have left and, like you said, are first
generation students, most of usaren't necessarily doing it the
(03:12):
right way, or the best way, orthe most easy way.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Right, correct.
At this point.
Typically, ideal isn'tnecessarily a part of the
equation anymore.
You just kind of are in thesuck it up buttercup mode and
make it happen, however it needsto happen.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
You are absolutely right.
That's so true, so true.
So where was I?
Well, I had started undergradat 25.
So I was, I'd already gotten alate start, it felt.
It felt like I did, although Iknow that's that's all relative
and we all do things indifferent timeframes.
Okay, so four years latergraduated, I was married and we
(03:59):
moved to central Missouri for mynow ex's job, and I took about
two years between undergrad andgrad school, and during that
time I was trying to figure outwhat I wanted to do.
So, a of all, I was learningthe hard reality that the days
(04:20):
of an English degree or anydegree making you more
marketable was really out oftouch.
Advice that I had beenfollowing, and I did have some
ideas, and I also knew thatthere wasn't much.
I couldn't be job searchingduring my last semester or last
(04:41):
year of college because I wasn'tsure where we were going to end
up and where we ended up wascompletely unfamiliar.
So I just waited till we gotthere, and then it took a while
to find something, because,guess what, In rural Missouri,
people are not begging forEnglish majors, so Not a lot of
(05:03):
options.
Are not begging for Englishmajors, so not a lot of options.
No, no, and so I ended up.
I did a few months at anonprofit and I spent most of
the time working as a legalsecretary.
And it paid as well as anythingthat I was exploring, you know,
any of the other options I had.
It wasn't great, but it was aswell as anything I could get.
(05:26):
I also got a little bit ofexperience interning at the
state capitol during that time.
So there were a number ofthings that were.
They were all learningexperiences, all worthwhile
learning experiences, but notnecessarily fun learning
experiences.
But at least I wasn't findingmy place with any of those.
So during those two years I wasalso exploring grad school
(05:49):
options.
I thought about law school.
I took the LSAT and my scoreswere not exciting.
I did get waitlisted for a lawschool but I just, yeah, I ended
up deciding not to do that.
I thought about other fields.
I mean, I really enjoyed myEnglish undergrad, thought about
(06:11):
sociology because I wasinterested in some of the kind
of cultural, social concerns,and I was also thinking about
English because I liked thewriting.
I enjoyed the writing, Ienjoyed the research part of
literary studies, but I couldn'tdecide which of those two I was
most interested in.
(06:31):
Oh, and I should say too, I wasalso looking at other jobs at
this time and I was looking atother options.
I was looking at whether or notI should get a paralegal
certificate and continue in thelegal field.
So I realize now the right wayto get into the right way the
quote unquote right way to finda graduate program is to
(06:54):
identify the field that you wantto be in and then look at the
programs, look at the scholarsin the field, find out kind of
where you think your niche mightbe and then pursue that
location, pursue that college oruniversity you know, rather
than looking like, like you say,I mean, this was, this is what
(07:17):
we as non-traditional studentsoften do.
We're graphically bound, wehave.
We just got his new job and sowe were going to stay there a
while and so, even if I hadexplored other universities, we
weren't necessarily going tomove there.
I mean, that wasn't the plan.
So for me, grad school was oneoption among others.
(07:40):
So if I had found a job Ireally liked, I would have done
that instead that makes sense.
And the advice, and so alsowe're looking at so 2006.
So it's just a couple.
You know the economy wasalready starting to tank a
little.
Yeah, I mean it didn't reallyhit for another year or two, but
it was.
(08:01):
It was heading that way and sojobs weren't plentiful.
But it was heading that way andso jobs weren't plentiful and I
(08:26):
loved school and so grad schoolwas really tempting for those
reasons.
So as I was looking at theEnglish program there at the
University of Missouri, I sawthat they had, without knowing
about rhetoric and compositionI'm sure I heard about it
somewhere but it didn't registerbut what I saw was that this
was a subfield of English thatfocused on writing and research
about how we learn to write, andthen also there was also an
element of cultural critique init, in the rhetoric.
So this like combined thethings I loved and you know, and
(08:48):
then I was learning about howyou get funding and
assistantships when you go intothese programs.
I was like that sounds more funthan a job.
Hello, again, terrible, aterrible reason to go into grad
school.
But I applied and they offeredme a really nice fellowship and
(09:08):
let me say this too, my GREscores were not impressive.
So let me just say anyone whotakes one of those standardized
tests like LSAT or GRE orsomething like that and gets
substandard scores, just knowit's not the end of the road.
Substandard scores just knowit's not the end of the road.
You might have to try adifferent path, but I still got
(09:29):
offered a really nice fellowshipeven what that means, what a
fellowship means it's like ascholarship.
So on top of getting paid forteaching courses while I was in
graduate school, I also got astipend on top of that.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Okay and so.
So it's pretty typical for gradstudents to be teaching as well
, correct?
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Well, let's, that's a really important question and I
want to get to that and I haveit a little further down in the
notes because I definitely wantto talk about what is the
difference?
There's kind of two kinds oftwo buckets of graduate programs
, as it were.
And that's an important part ofit.
So, anyway, this is kind ofgetting along.
(10:14):
So some other things that wereweighing on my mind I was almost
30.
I was reading all thesearticles in the news about how
fertility tanks after 30.
And I knew that going into anyhumanities program was not a
quick ticket to a good job.
(10:35):
I mean, I knew that academia itdidn't feel like a secure
career path for me, so, but Iwanted to study those things, I
mean, and I also there were.
So I also wanted to have kidsand I realized like, well, I
knew it'd be really really hardto have children while I was in
(10:56):
grad school and I knew that alsogoing to grad school and
humanities program was noguarantee of anything.
But I finally came to theconclusion like I could end up
almost 40, which is about what Iwould be.
So this is I was looking at aseven year program.
So I could end up almost 40 andhave no career and no kids.
(11:20):
Like I could give myself everygive, give everything to grad
school and end up without kidsand no career.
And let me tell you that's insome ways, that's more likely
than not for someone going intoa humanities area of grad school
, and I don't say that becauseit's a bad idea, just that
that's the reality of it's, theunfortunate reality.
(11:40):
But the other thing was like,well, could I do that and have
kids, so that at least, if thecareer doesn't work out at the
end, I at least have kids, I'dhave a family.
So that's what I ended up,that's what I decided to do.
Good for you.
Well, I don't know.
I mean I feel lucky for how ithas ended up.
(12:02):
But again I landed in asubfield of the humanities, the
one subfield probably, I meanthere might be a few others, but
I don't know of them, I'm surebut one of the very, very few
subfields in the humanitieswhere the job prospects were
relatively good.
I mean, yeah, and I didn't knowthat when I selected it.
(12:25):
So again, don't do what I did,I know what you're getting into.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
When you talk about humanities, talk to us a little
bit about what that means,specifically in academia.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Yes, thank you.
Yes, yes, yes.
Yes, the term liberal arts iskind of this broad term that
covers fields like English,history, sociology, languages,
you know, religious studies, andthen there's also the arts and
also sciences like biology,chemistry, geography, geology,
(13:02):
right, all those.
So these are these broad fieldsof study of a particular
subject and they're kind ofthese traditional fields of
study.
They've been around for a longtime.
So that that's, the humanitiesis one section of that, and the
humanities is like english,philosophy, what else?
(13:22):
Why am I blanking uming?
And I should just say, too,these categories are fuzzy.
English is definitelyhumanities, but when you go to
any institution and you see whatall they include under
humanities, it's not necessarilygoing to be the exact same
thing as another institution, sothat's-.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
There's variables within it.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
There's variables, for sure, and I mean anyone who
is really wanting to understandthis and maybe we can put a link
in the show notes of a diagramthat kind of shows the
relationship between thesedifferent fields, and it will
make a lot more sense then.
So that's so.
Yeah, so humanities, thingslike English.
Does that answer the question?
(14:07):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Okay, I think of those graduateprograms as one bucket.
The other bucket are like thepre-professional programs or
like applied fields, likenursing medical school, physical
therapy, like nursing medicalschool physical therapy.
Yeah, well, although likepsychology.
(14:27):
So this is where it gets alittle fuzzy too, because
psychology would be a socialscience, so in that way it's
like one of the liberal arts,right?
But then when we're talkingcounseling yeah, that now we're
talking professional, yeah, andeven within psychology you'll
have a PhD program in psychology.
(14:49):
Research-based is going to lookvery different from what a
program in counseling, like amaster's degree in counseling,
is going to look just verydifferent In terms of what you
do, in terms of the commitmentexpected, in terms of what your
job prospects are afterward.
It's just very, very different,even though there's lots of
(15:11):
topical overlap.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Right.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
So how did I decide to do it?
It worked out, yeah, and I waskind of pretending, I realize
now I was assuming I had allkinds of privilege that well, I
kind of did but kind of didn't.
I mean it worked out.
So that speaks to some of thatprivilege that I had.
I was able to succeed, but alsoI didn't know the risk I was
(15:36):
taking, right, yeah, I wouldn'trecommend anyone else do what I
did, unless they areindependently wealthy and they
don't need a paycheck and theydon't need to save for
retirement.
So that's that's that.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
That's that, and so your specific program was seven
years commitment.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
What?
Well, yes, yes and no, so itwas.
The program I applied to was amaster's, phd, and so graduate
school encompasses master's andPhD.
So the expected timeline wasthat it would take two years to
get the master's degree and thenfive years to do the PhD.
(16:21):
And the benefit of doing thiswas that I didn't have to then
go apply.
You know, once I finished mymaster's program I didn't have
to go reapply.
But if I had successfullycompleted that, I could continue
that.
And that worked out really wellfor me, because my daughter was
born my second year of gradschool.
(16:43):
And guess what?
Pregnancy, childbearing, bigenergy sucks, because that's
important work.
And graduate school wasdesigned for wealthy white males
who have families supportingthem, okay, so you can see the
tension there.
(17:04):
So definitely not me.
And so, all that to say, Ididn't get my thesis finished on
time, but what I was able to dowas that third year start PhD
coursework while I was stillfinishing up my master's degree.
So technically it took me threeyears to get my master's degree
done instead of two, but itstill worked out to seven, seven
(17:25):
years total.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
So you played catch up and it worked, yeah.
So what did you find youenjoyed most about grad school?
Speaker 2 (17:33):
This is a good question, because there was so
much I did enjoy the opportunityto read, like when you know.
This is the cool thing aboutgoing to college is like your
quote unquote job.
You know what you're signed upfor is reading things you know,
and when you're in grad schoolyou get to focus on things that
are on topics that are ofparticular interest to you,
(17:55):
right, and so on the Enneagram Iusually come out as a three,
but sometimes I wonder if I'mreally a five and there's
something about whateverfiveness I have was really
gratified by those deep dives.
I made friends and I never gotto spend as much time and
develop those relationships asmuch as I would have liked.
(18:16):
But thankfully Facebook it wasjust coming on the scene then,
and so that's allowed me to atleast keep somewhat in contact.
There were colleagues that Ireally admired, and so one of
the trade-offs of having kids isthat the recommendation was you
can do grad school in one hobby.
That's it.
The reality is, you will nothave time for anything other
(18:39):
than that, and so my hobby waskids, and so that did not leave
much time at all for socializing, and I really regret that.
(19:09):
I wish I could have learned toknow so many of my colleagues
better.
That said, the new experiences,you know, opportunities to hear
.
So at big universities they'llhave people come speak.
So I heard people likeMadeleine Albright and, oh,
barack Obama came, he was, hewas campaigning, and he came to
our campus and I wanted to go,but then I was five months
pregnant or something.
Anyway, I was just concernedabout being in a massive crowd
of people without access tobathrooms.
Yeah, so we ended up not going,but but we got t shirts.
I'll always regret I didn't gosee Maya Angelou when she came.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Yeah, and so that's.
It's all the things that comewith it, like all the things
that are not technically part ofthe program.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
The bonuses.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
The bonuses are really awesome.
Some really good advice that Iwas given early on or that we
were given early on was that inthe program was don't try to
predict which field you shouldgo into because of what the
world's going to look like inseven years when you graduate.
Instead, focus on somethingthat you care about so much that
(20:04):
, even if you end up with no job, at the end you say, okay, that
was worth it.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
That still sounds scary, though, because some of
us need a paycheck.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Exactly, exactly, and that was good advice.
I mean, that was because youknow, if you don't have a trust
fund, where does that leave youand also, during those seven
years you're not saving up forretirement.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Right yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
And there's no money for savings Right.
But I think the advice is goodin terms of how to approach it
and this is why it's anexpensive hobby.
Someone who is in undergrad andwho is considering grad school,
my advice is only get as mucheducation, like formal education
, as you absolutely need toreach your dreams, unless unless
(20:52):
it's like you're doing awriting program, an MFA program
or you know a writing program,just for the sheer personal
benefit of it.
I think that's the ideal way todo college.
Just do it for the fun of it.
I mean, that's how, that's thebest way to do it, but most of
us can't afford to do that, sothat went off on a rabbit trail.
Bring me back.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
So tell me, what surprised you most about grad
school.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
I think what I was least prepared for so in that
sense it surprised me was thepolitics, because I think the
reason I did so well, one of thereasons I did so well in
undergrad is I'm a really goodrule follower a lot of the time
until I'm not, and then upthrough undergraduate, following
directions will really get youfar.
(21:38):
It'll get you good grades andthose grades will open doors.
But once you finish undergrad,being a rule follower puts you
at the back of the line.
Interesting and alsointeresting, is that gender, how
gender plays into this.
And yes, women get morebachelor's degrees than men now
(22:00):
in the last what decade or so.
But guess who still has thehigh paying jobs?
Not women.
So men still out earn women,even though women are getting
more degrees.
So what I was least prepared forwere the politics of it,
because the politics managingthe politics, navigating the
politics of graduate school, ofacademia, is not about rule
(22:24):
following, it's aboutrelationships.
I wasn't prepared for how muchillogical behavior that I would
witness in a place that taughtme how to think logically and in
retrospect, this is justinstitutions.
This is what institutions doRight, and people within them
exhibit that same behavior.
And and also like.
(22:46):
We're all human and, whether wedeny our illogical behavior or
not, we are not logical animals.
Right, we might like to imaginethat, we might aspire to be
that, but, but the reality is no, that's not how it works, and
so things that reallydisappointed me were moments and
let me say it's moments, it'snot the whole entire thing, but
(23:09):
there were moments where I wouldhear people make snap judgments
about other people, and maybeit was other people who you know
, maybe I identified with someaspect of their identity.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
And.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
I hear them make snap judgments about them, and that
taught me to shut up real quickabout my background.
Unless, I felt let me rephrasethat Maybe not shut up, but at
least be really careful when youtalk about, Because I saw
people or at least I heard aboutsnap judgments being made that
(23:40):
were maybe the exact opposite ofwhat was appropriate in the
situation but because of thesnap judge that kind of thing,
so that I wasn't prepared forthat.
Again, this is not everybody,this is not the whole time, but
it did happen, and it happenedmore than I expected.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
And it definitely influenced the way you presented
yourself Totally totally, whichhere and here's the thing again
.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
when you fracture yourself Totally, totally.
And here's the thing again.
When you fracture yourself likethat and you cut off part of
your identity to fit in with thepresent, it will give you a
certain amount of success, butit also isolates you in a
certain way.
Because people don't really knowall of who you are, they just
know that one side of you.
And I remember talking with oneof my friends there in grad
(24:27):
school who was well, she wasalso non-traditional, she's from
Jamaica and she taught me howto make this amazing ginger lime
punch or something it's notalcoholic, but anyway, it was so
good I had her come over to myhouse and show me how to make it
.
Anyway, she was great and wewould study together.
Sometimes I was talking withher about my background and her
(24:48):
experience, of course, was beinga Black woman in academia in a
very white institution, and so Iwas lamenting the way that, by
passing, I felt isolated and shesaid well, she said, but you
have the privilege of passing.
She said I can't.
I was like, oh yeah, so yeah, Ifeel like it's a double-edged
(25:13):
sword.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
So what do you wish?
You would have known previously, before you got started.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Well, one of the things is, I wish I would have
understood how to research thefield.
I mean, I did look at stuffonline but I wasn't sure what to
look for Right.
How would you know?
How would I know Right?
And then you know I was lookingat, you know message boards
about law school, message boardsabout different kinds of
graduate school or differentfields.
(25:40):
You know different career pathsand I finally came to the
realization oh, they are alllike they're all terrible.
I mean there are horror storiesin all of them.
Yeah, and I realized I couldn'tlet the horror stories make the
decision for me, like I had tobe aware of those potential
pitfalls but also to realizeit's not.
(26:01):
I can't just pick a field toavoid, avoid the messiness.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Potential yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Because I can talk about the horrors of employment,
the job market for academics,but I was reading horror stories
about lawyers working for $20an hour after they'd been to law
school and in horrible workingconditions people in the field.
Then I would hear about thisprogram or that program and I
would go oh man, I didn't know,I didn't know to even look there
(26:44):
.
I didn't even know that.
That would have been a greatfit for me If.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
I would have only known I could have applied there
.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
But also, I was kind of stuck there in Missouri so it
wasn't like I was goinganywhere else.
I was kind of stuck there inMissouri so it wasn't like I was
going anywhere else.
So again, if I could do it overagain, I would look at that and
I remember trying to Googlethis kind of thing to find out.
But I just knew so little aboutthe subfield and, yeah, I went
into it blind, which wasdefinitely not ideal.
(27:11):
I mean, again, happy where Ihave ended up.
So I scraped through.
But it could have been easier.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
The sad thing, the difficult thing, is you don't
know what you don't know, butthen you also don't know how to
look for what you don't know.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Exactly, Exactly.
And there are some good booksout there and thankfully, I did
come across one of them that Iread.
I think it was maybe my firstyear in the program because I
think it was recommended by someof the mentors there and I will
link it in the show notes, butit's a graduate study in the
21st century and even thoughthis was published in 2010, so
(27:50):
we live in a different worldthan 2010, as I remember it, a
lot of that advice still stands.
Some people don't like thatbook because they say he's too
harsh.
I think he's just.
He's saying it like it isSaying some of the quiet stuff
out loud.
Yes, yes, and he is not beatingaround the bush about how much
(28:12):
it demands of you, gotcha, Ithink it's a really good, really
good book, especially for firstgen students.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
So you also mentioned the importance of knowing how
to evaluate status and mentorsand relationships.
Tell me more about that.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
So, you know, I think you and I grew up around the
idea and I think, well, we doembrace this idea of valuing
everyone equally and not valuingthem on the basis of their
status within a community.
I mean, you and I know howhurtful that can be, and this is
not something that is a newdevelopment for you and me,
right, you know, like this issomething that I have embraced
(28:52):
and I know you have too, too fora very long time.
It turns out, though, you can'tignore it, and it doesn't mean
you have to buy into that valuesystem, but you can't ignore it.
So, for example, in academia,when we think of high status
institutions, high statusuniversities, we think of the
(29:12):
Ivy Leagues, and, on one hand,do you get a better education
there?
Well, maybe, because, guesswhat?
They do have better resources,and you're going to get to know
people and make professionalcontacts there that you're not
going to make at a state school,at some state schools anyway.
So it does matter, and peoplewill judge you based on that
(29:35):
right.
So, even if it doesn't matterto you, it matters to other
people.
It can influence your future inways you might not be prepared
for.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
So it becomes a little bit about knowing how to
play the game of chess.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And along with that, theimportance of mentors and
relationships.
This is again it's not enoughjust to get an A, it's not
enough to go to class, it's notenough to do the work that's
assigned to you.
You've got to cultivaterelationships with mentors
because they are your entreeinto the field, especially in a
humanities setting.
But I think in general, that'sreally important, but definitely
(30:11):
in a humanities PhD program.
It's all about networksFascinating, yeah.
And who can recommend you forwhat?
And who's going to actuallygive you a glowing
recommendation, or who's goingto damn you with faint praise?
This is why you got to be niceto everybody, even the jerks,
(30:32):
yeah, yeah, I know.
Ask me why it's triggering, wow.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
So in many ways I have observed that a lot of the
same skills you need in the highdemand religious world are the
exact same skills that will getyou through academia.
I take it that you would seethat as well.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
And here's the thing that can be one of our resources
that folks like us who haveexperienced educational neglect
and high demand religion candraw on, and it's about
understanding how egos workunderstanding, in fact, we
usually do really wellfunctioning in a hierarchy.
(31:19):
We know what to do in ahierarchy, and if you know what
to do in a hierarchy, thenyou're going to do well here.
Do you know what I'm saying?
That gives you.
That is one way to navigate.
But here's the thing it's aculture that is often not very
direct.
It is a culture that peoplewill say things to you that in
(31:44):
the moment you think they'recomplimenting you and then you
walk away and you realize, oh,that was a burn, that was a diss
.
That was a burn, that was a.
That was a diss.
Like I had one of my advisorsafter my second child was born
at my baby shower.
Everybody threw for me afterthe baby was born and my then
mother-in-law was there and thismentor says so.
(32:06):
Well, I hope Naomi gets herfocus back on school now.
It crushed me because I wasvery conscious of needing to
keep doing everything.
I was back on campus with thebaby less than two weeks after
he was born.
Wow, on stage at thispresentation thing, wow.
(32:27):
And then I talked to my mainmentor and I was like wait, wait
, is that how you feel about me?
And she assured me that no,that was I don't know.
I don't know what game she wastrying to play by saying that to
my mother-in-law, but I'm justsaying that's the kind of yeah,
(32:47):
that kind of nonsense.
Does that stop me?
No, does that mean that I can'tcontinue doing what I'm doing?
No, it doesn't stop me.
Is it disappointing?
Is it annoying?
Yes, especially when thesepeople also hold your future in
their hands, right?
Speaker 1 (33:02):
At the same time, there's a part of it that
probably felt a little bitfamiliar.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
And you just have to know andthis is where, knowing why
you're going to grad school.
And you know, I spent those twoyears between undergrad and
grad school in jobs that werenot good fits for me, right, but
every minute of those two yearswas worth it, because once I
did get to graduate school and I, you know I had those moments,
(33:27):
those hard times I would go well, do I want to be here, or would
I rather be back in that beigeoffice?
And the answer was always aresounding I want to be here,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Yeah, so tell me a little bit about graduate
programs and kind of how theyoperate.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Okay, so I mentioned earlier that graduate programs
fall in these two categories.
On one you have these artshumanities, these more
traditional fields.
Then on the other side we havethese more applied professional
degree programs.
They are different in a numberof ways.
I'm going to try to run throughthese differences pretty as
quickly as I can.
So the more traditionalhumanities kinds of programs,
(34:06):
which is what I did thoseprograms tend to emphasize
research and teaching.
So what that looked like for mefor my master's was doing, I
think, three semesters ofcoursework and then one semester
of writing my thesis, and thethesis is I don't know 50 page
research project.
And then for the PhD part,there were two years of
(34:29):
coursework and then one year ofreading for comprehensive exams,
which was a list of 100 booksthat I put together with with
feedback from my mentors, andthey were on different.
You know, I had differentsubject areas that I was
focusing in on.
But the idea was like afterthat, like I really man, that
(34:50):
was so valuable because at theend of that year I had a much
more comprehensive sense of thefield.
You know, I could pick up anyarticle at that point and
understand oh, they're talkingabout this and they're
mentioning this and they'rereferring to that, you know, and
so, like that was, that wasreally helpful.
Ok, so that was a year for thecomprehensive exam and and at
(35:12):
the end of that then I wouldwrite a paper that passed Back
in the day, they would put youin a room, isolated room, at the
end of reading all those booksand you had to write an essay
and you didn't see the promptuntil they handed it to you and
you had to write it on the spot.
So, yeah, mine was much morehumane.
I got to write it on my owntime, with revisions and
(35:34):
everything, of course, sure.
But then the last two yearswere for writing my dissertation
, and that's a book-lengthindependent research project.
Okay, let's talk about some ofthe ways they're different.
So, within a more appliedprofessional now, I've not done
one, so I've only observedothers who have done them.
From what I observed is thatthey focus a lot more on
coursework.
(35:54):
They are often designed forworking adults, and so they
often do not demand your wholeentire life the way humanity or
I keep saying humanities, it'snot just humanities, but like
the PhD programs, do.
They also include internshipswhere you're doing on the job,
(36:15):
you know where you're working,you're learning on the job, that
kind of thing.
So usually the traditional,these traditional PhD programs,
there's not as muchout-of-pocket cost.
But the way they get fundedoften ideally is that you teach
undergrad courses while you aretaking graduate courses and then
(36:37):
that covers your tuition andgives you a small stipend.
I mean you can borrow on top ofthat, which I did, because I
had kids in daycare and let metell you that is not pretty.
I'm going, how am I ever goingto pay for their college?
I've already paid for theirdaycare, anyway.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
So it's fair.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
It's true.
But here's the other thing,though because I work at a
nonprofit now right, and it's auniversity I am eligible for
loan forgiveness, and within thenext few months, that loan is
supposed to go away, thatmassive, massive loan that I
graduated with.
Now I've been paying on it allthis time and, to give you a
sense of what happens to theinterest, I've been paying on it
(37:16):
for most of this time and thebalance stays steady.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
That's just awful.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
When people get their loans forgiven it's usually
that they have more than paidback.
The principal what's beingquote unquote forgiven is the
outrageous interest that getscharged.
It's insane.
Yeah, okay, researchexpectations with the more
traditional PhD program you'reexpected to do research and that
(37:42):
research gets again.
The more advanced you get, themore very, very, very specific
nitty gritty your focus becomes.
You get that teachingexperience.
Often at the end, like if amaster's or PhD you do generally
, you do a thesis ordissertation.
That's what kind of.
That's the kind of adistinctive factor about it
where with some professionalprograms, you might write, you
(38:05):
might have the option of writinga thesis or you might have to
just take an exam.
I say just, I mean that's it'sjust picking, picking your
stress, type of stress, expectedcareer paths.
If you get a PhD, theexpectation is you're going to
go into academia because you'relearning how to research.
I mean you know it has notreally prepared you for anything
(38:27):
else specifically other thanthat You've become an expert in
this area.
And they's not jobs for that,because it was not designed to
be job training College wasn't.
On the other hand, when you getinto an applied professional
degree program, oh, and this isthe thing we should talk about
for-profit colleges and onlinefor-profit colleges.
(38:47):
Because here's the thing I knowpeople who have found out once
they'd done the program or oncethey were in a program and they
were looking at certification.
Like you read the fine printand you find out about
requirements no one ever toldyou about, you had no idea and
you didn't know to go look forthose requirements and one of
(39:07):
the requirements in one of thoseprocesses was that none of the
courses could be from an onlineinstitution.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
When you see advertisements from the
University of Phoenix and allthese online places.
They do such a good marketingjob of making themselves look
legit and yet folks in academiaare generally very they hold
those in suspect because theywant your money and whether or
(39:38):
not you get an education is kindof beside the point.
And I say that, and I'm surethere are exceptions to that,
but I'm just saying that's theperception.
That's the perception, but itdoes give you an expected career
path.
So when you get out ofcounseling, out of a counseling
program, the assumption isyou're going to be a counselor
Status.
Why does status matter?
(39:59):
So I talked about this a littlebit before.
Often with status comes morefunding opportunities and that
allows you to do more stuff andwhether that's research or you
know some kind of innovativeteaching approach or some kind
of interdisciplinary thing orwhatever.
So status matters notintrinsically, but pragmatically
.
It matters in terms of whatdoors it will open for you or
(40:20):
not, and not saying it's fair orright, just saying that's how
it is.
Then the payoff and thebenefits.
So, hypothetically, if you arecool with living in poverty for
about seven years and kind ofscratching through some of your
prime child bearing years, oftenprime earning years, years when
(40:42):
you're going to benefit themost from saving for retirement.
If you're willing to live ingenteel poverty for those seven
years, you know well, then youmight have a stable career.
I'm lucky to have one, althoughmy son was asking me how much I
make the other night I was likeI don't know if I should tell
you or not.
And then I did and he goes Mom,that's all he said.
(41:06):
How do you buy us all thisstuff?
Speaker 1 (41:09):
The question I ask every day, the question that's,
that's, that's it.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Well, I see, you know , just a few years ago, if I
would have said I make $10,000 ayear he'd go $10,000.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Why can't I?
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Yeah, that's a lot of money Right, and so that was
interesting.
It was very gratifying to hearmy son say that.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Okay, so tell me a little bit.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
The contrast with that is like if I'd gone to to
law school and would be workingfor a big law firm, I'd be
making you know three times,four times what I'm making now.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Right, so it took me a bit to remember the difference
between the different degrees.
Tell me more about that.
So we have your associates, wehave the bachelors, we have
masters and then the PhD.
Break that down for us.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
So that's a great question and just for our
listeners, Rebecca needed toleave, she had some folks coming
by and so I'm going to try tofinish this up, and apologies
for the monologue, but I'll tryto make this as painless as
possible.
So what's the differencebetween the different degrees?
(42:23):
So when you hear associate'sdegree, that's usually a
two-year degree and that isoften what you can get at a
community college.
Now, that could be something inthe humanities like English or
history or psychology or socialsciences, or it could be
(42:44):
technical training, paralegalcertificate or something like
that.
So there's kind of a broadrange.
The bachelor's degree, then, istypically a four-year degree.
You're not going to be able toget that at a community college,
but you can get that at afour-year institution.
You know small liberal artscollege usually, and a large
institution as well.
Right, that's kind of the mosttypical one that we think of
(43:07):
when we think of going tocollege.
Master's degree that's usuallythe first degree level in
graduate school.
So once you have a bachelor'sdegree, you've graduated from a
four-year institution if youwant to go on.
So with the master's degreecomes an association of what
usually prepares you formanagement level jobs in the
(43:28):
pre-professional fields.
But then the doctorate or PhDinvolves writing a dissertation,
and so that's kind of the upperlevel of graduate school, as it
were.
So when you hear people talkabout graduate school, they're
talking about the master's anddoctorate level, both, and then
(43:50):
breaks down in that way.
Also, there are programs likedoctor of physical therapy,
doctor of education.
That is a little different froma PhD.
A PhD is often seen as the mostprestigious of those, and I
mean that's my impression, butthat doesn't mean it's you know,
(44:11):
inherently better.
You know it's all depends onwhat your needs are, your
individual needs, on yourindividual goals and ambitions
are.
But just to understand thatthey are not exactly the same
and how they are different canreally vary from institution to
institution.
So the last question thatRebecca had for me here before
(44:31):
she left was what advice I wouldhave for someone looking at
grad school or considering it,and so I have a list of things
to be thinking about for anyonewho's considering graduate
school or wondering if it's theright thing for them.
Since I can't go back in timeand tell myself what questions I
should have been asking, I hopethis might be helpful for
(44:53):
someone else who is wonderingabout whether it's relevant for
them or not.
Okay, so one thing to understandis that at every level of
education in general, we arelearning how to be increasingly
independent in what we study,and so that certainly continues.
So at you know, with abachelor's degree you can major
(45:16):
in a particular subject area andsubject areas of interest to
you, right, and so that's morespecialized than high school.
But once you get to graduateschool, it becomes even more
specialized than undergrad, wasbachelor's degree, and then, of
course, PhD.
It's even more specialized.
So when someone is veryeducated, usually in this
(45:36):
context, is that they are veryeducated in a specific field.
This is where I find a lot ofhumility in what I know and
don't know, where I realize justhow little shame there is in
admitting to what I don't know,right, Because nobody can know
all the things.
And the deeper you go in oneparticular area, the more you
(45:58):
realize.
Oh wait, all the other areashave this kind of granularity as
well, and so for me it inspireshumility.
Another piece of advice would beto get familiar with the
scholarship in your field soyou're prepared to enter the
conversation, or at least knowwhat questions are relevant to
the field, because that is a wayof establishing your
(46:18):
credibility as a scholar is whenyou are engaging with what
other scholars in the field havesaid, and that is an
expectation in graduate school.
It's not just about kind ofgetting out there and saying
whatever you want to say.
It's really about engaging withwhat scholars before you have
said and that's you know how youshow your relevance to the
(46:41):
field.
One way to find out what'sgoing on in a field you're
considering is to find theconferences in the field and
just read through their.
You know what kind of topicspeople are talking about at the
conference.
You don't have to go, don't goto the conference, just read
about them and see what peopleare talking about, and then that
(47:03):
should lead you to some of thebiggest journals in the field.
In fact, you can just searchfor major journals in X field.
You know, skimming throughthose doesn't say exactly what
you're going to study, but itgives you an idea of what people
are interested in talking aboutin that field generally, and
that's just important to knowwhether or not you follow
whatever.
(47:24):
The current trend is Also readInside Higher Ed and the
Chronicle of Higher Education.
These are more news outletsthat write about the realities
of university life, of academia,and you know, every now and
then there will be an article inthere that will really tick
people off.
(47:44):
There will be an article inthere that will really tick
people off, and you know,usually in my experience it's
usually when someone writes avery opinionated article about
something that has nothing to dowith their field of study and
reveals their ignorance.
It's again it can be reallyhelpful just for getting a sense
of how people are, what peopleare talking about, what kinds of
concerns are going on, becauseinformation is power.
(48:05):
All right, I talked earlierabout understanding how higher
education is extremelyrelationship based, and part of
this, too, is becomingenculturated into it.
I'm not sure what percentage ofundergraduate college students
are first gen, but it's asignificant number, significant
(48:28):
percentage.
There's a much smallerpercentage of graduate students
who are first generation, and sothe norms of white middle-class
culture are even more expectedat the graduate level.
And when you come from a workingclass background, it often
(48:50):
comes off as really snooty andpretentious, and it can be.
But I would encourage anyonewho is going into higher
education and is aware, Iencourage you to be aware of it,
but not to let it intimidateyou and just kind of hold it
lightly.
It is what it is.
Make a note Underneath thatpretentiousness there might or
(49:12):
seeming pretentiousness might bea really sweet person who's
just talking the way they'vealways, the way everybody around
them has always talked.
Or it could be someone who is ajerk, and you just don't know
until you get to know thembetter.
Another thing when you go toselect a committee, so when
you're writing your dissertationor your thesis, you have a
committee of faculty, ofprofessors, who are going to
(49:36):
evaluate your work and theydecide whether or not you pass,
and if you pass you get a PhD ora master's degree or not.
So you definitely want to keepthem happy.
Now, there's kind of atrade-off here, or there can be,
because since they are in manyways kind of your sponsors in
(49:57):
the field you're going into, whothey are can really matter.
If they have a veryrecognizable name, a name that's
really respected or that youknow people look up to in the
field, that can open a lot ofdoors for you, because they, you
know, the assumption is well,if you're working with so-and-so
, you must be pretty good.
So, but at the same time therecan be a trade-off, because
(50:21):
sometimes scholars like that arereally focused on building
their careers and mentoring,being there for their grad
students, responding to gradstudents' questions and emails
drafts in a timely manner.
It's just not a priority forthem.
It's hard to know this at theoutset, but it's really helpful.
(50:45):
It can be really helpful to askaround who do you have as your
who's, your advisor?
Why did you decide to pick them?
Obviously it's going to need tobe in your subfield, but also
you need to think about thepotential trade-offs there,
because sometimes someone who'snot well-known but really takes
their mentoring seriously isgoing to get you so much further
than someone who's well wellknown but really takes their
mentoring seriously is going toget you so much further than
(51:07):
someone who's well known butdoesn't mentor you.
And there's a handful of folkswho are both mentors at heart
and well known and respected inthe field.
And if you can catch on to oneof those, if you can work with
someone like that, then that'sgoing to serve you really well.
I think one way to also makethat decision is to think about
(51:29):
your future goals.
So, for example, if you arewanting a career in academia, in
a competitive institution oryou know competitive kind of job
or you really want ambitiousand you want to really dedicate
yourself to having a long andrich career rich in the sense,
(51:52):
not in the monetary sense thenthe status of the institution
probably does matter, and mysense is that in the more
liberal arts humanities programs, the more liberal arts
humanities programs, statusmatters more.
Where in more appliedprofessional programs maybe it
(52:15):
doesn't as much, but that's abig maybe.
I think again, it depends andit's worth looking into.
It's not to say that the statusof the place where you get your
degree determines the rest ofyour career, but it can
certainly open and close doors.
Again, not saying this is fairor the way things should be done
.
I'm just saying this is the waythings are often done and so
(52:36):
getting a sense of whatinstitutions are respected, what
are not, can be reallyimportant, what or not, can be
really important.
I think the more clear a personis about why they're going to
graduate school, what theirgoals are, the better off
they'll be, just because thereare lots of opportunities that
come along in life that you haveto say no to.
(52:58):
I missed a lot of importantlife events and extended family
things like weddings, funeralsnot all of them, but I missed
many of them because graduateschool just did not allow for
the flexibility to do that.
Also, if there was a jobopportunity that came up during
(53:19):
that seven-year period, I had tostick with what I was doing or
I would have had to walk awayfrom you know what three, four
years of work without anythingto show for it.
And I think what can be reallyimportant to be thinking about
as you are writing yourapplication essays for grad
school what's your professionalnarrative and what's the
(53:40):
narrative of your life.
The more that you can turn thatinto a story that makes sense
and so that it makes sense, why,given your background, why
you're doing what you're doingnow and where you want it to
take you, the more it will helppeople you meet have a sense of
who you are and it can helpnurture those relationships that
(54:03):
are so, so necessary.
Okay, and I'm sure once I getoff of here I'll think of all
the other things that I wantedto say, that I forgot to say.
But that's the beauty of havinga podcast we can circle back
down the road because there'scertainly more to say about grad
school than what we're talkingabout here.
Okay, so, if I can wrap this up.
(54:24):
This conclusion doesn't look asbrief as it probably should be,
but let's see, see if we can dothis.
So, when I sum up my experiencewith graduate school and
thinking about it in regards tosomeone else, who's thinking
about it and wondering if thisis the thing for them, when I
think about was it worth it?
Was it worth the demands?
Was it worth the opportunitycosts?
(54:44):
Was it worth the demands?
Was it worth the opportunitycosts?
Was it worth the?
You know the negativeexperiences that happened, which
you know are going to happenregardless of what you do.
I want to say two things thatsound contradictory, but instead
of thinking of them, as youknow, contradictory, I hope you
can think of them, as I do, asboth being true.
So, first, I'm incrediblygrateful that I had the luxury
(55:04):
that I could just scrape throughon a seven-year program,
because I was married to someonewho had a stable job and so,
even though we were scraping by,we were still able to survive
needs of some kind.
I would have had to make somehard decisions.
I was also able to finish ontime and there's lots of folks
(55:28):
who aren't able to do that andso I feel very fortunate for
that.
Despite the opportunity costs,the fact that it was accessible
to me as a privilege I don'ttake for granted for a minute.
I met so many wonderful peoplewho I still think of fondly,
even though I am not in a wholelot of contact with them thanks
to Facebook.
They don't feel completely lostto me and I have a sense of
(55:51):
community just knowing that theyare out there across the
country, different institutionsdoing similar work, and we have
that common experience ofsurviving grad school together,
and that really does create along lasting bond.
The work that I do, the teachingthat I do, is more rewarding
now than when I started it, andthat's probably the biggest
(56:13):
understatement in this wholeepisode.
And how many people can saythat about their work?
More than 10 years in, I amalso part of the first
generation of women who can owntheir own house and support
themselves with a respected,stable career Not necessarily a
lucrative one, but it's stable,and my kids and I are doing fine
(56:36):
, and that is no small thing.
All right, so that's all thegood stuff.
At the same time, the emotionalcost of being a student for so
long means that we got yearafter year of that experience of
being a novice and all theuncertainty and powerlessness
and cluelessness that goes withbeing a novice.
The cultural commute from mybackground to graduate school
(56:59):
could have been measured inlight years, and I wasn't always
sure what I would be risking bytalking about my background.
So I generally didn't.
And also, being a mother anddeveloping this emerging
identity as a scholar didn'tleave much room for thoughts of
anything else either.
I'll be honest I've alwayswondered if the reason we are an
ADHD household is because mychildren were bathed in cortisol
(57:24):
and caffeine throughout both mypregnancies because I was in
graduate school.
If I hadn't been in graduateschool, I would have been
working somewhere and maybe itwould have been the same there
too.
I don't know.
I said earlier that graduateschool's emphasis on
relationships is reallyimportant, and this can make
(57:45):
things very thorny when thingsdon't work out.
For example, when you getpassed over for an assistantship
, some kind of a role that youreally need to develop your
qualifications, maybe somethingyou are more than qualified for
and it goes to someone who'sless qualified not because you
(58:07):
did anything wrong necessarily,but maybe that less qualified
person had a closer relationshipwith the one who was doing the
hiring and then you have to turnaround and be collegial to both
of them, because maybe if youplay your cards right, you can
get that position the followingyear and you know there's a very
good chance you are going toneed their goodwill at some
(58:28):
point down the road.
And so, even though it feelsvery unfair, even though there
is absolutely nothing you can doabout it no one you can
complain to except your friendsyou have to suck it up.
If you want to stay in thesystem, if you want to stay in
the program, if you becomesomeone who is always fighting
for what is fair, you're likelyjust as you would at any job
(58:52):
you'll likely be dismissedeventually as a troublemaker.
You're more likely to be seenthat way, Not to say you are
just.
That will be the perception.
Another way this can bite you isif you feel like you're
drowning, just trying to get toall the things you need to get
to do, all the studying you needto do, and also being a mom, a
(59:13):
young mom, so you can feel verybusy juggling responsibilities
to seek out mentors.
So you can feel like, as you'rejuggling all those
responsibilities, you don't evenhave time to seek out
one-on-one conversations withmentors.
And then what is frustrating iswhen you later get called out
because you didn't seek outtheir mentorship.
(59:34):
Or, on the other hand, the flipside is asking for regular
office visits to keep you ontrack with a project and being
told no.
And so, okay, you accept thatthat's their boundary, that
would be too much for them.
But then, a couple of yearslater, the same professor said
they would meet with meregularly after all, because
(59:57):
another student demanded it.
And as I think about it now,I'm struck by how many of these
experiences involved uppermiddle class white guys.
Anyway, probably coincidence,Totally coincidence were working
(01:00:20):
on was keeping the campus fromshutting down the daycare for
parenting students and, spoileralert, they announced the
closure the day before Igraduated.
It wasn't a cheap daycare butit was very convenient.
But all through its 40-yearexistence there had been
(01:00:41):
detractors and people who weretrying to shut it down.
One university administratorwho was responsible for the
center reportedly had said thatpeople with children should be
going to community college.
Now, I don't know if youremember, but in community
college you can't get more thanan associate's degree.
So this was at a largeuniversity where many of those
parents were graduate students.
I don't know what thatadministrator was thinking.
But anyway, so many levels ofeffed up assumptions in that
(01:01:05):
statement, so many timesgraduate school felt like I was
carefully looking both waysbefore crossing the street and
then getting hit by a plane.
And while you're doing this,you're also trying to prove how
smart and capable and collegialand hardworking you are, because
who knows who you will need toask to write you a letter of
recommendation at some pointdown the road right, so you need
(01:01:26):
to stay on everybody's goodside.
So while these are just a fewexamples of the dark side of
graduate school, and while theyare very much hashtag, white
girl hashtag, first worldproblems, they were triggering
at the time and they're stilltriggering when I think back to
them now.
In fact, there's a phenomenalfictional satire set in an
English department in aMidwestern city.
Actually it's part of a seriesit's called Dear Committee
(01:01:50):
Members and then also theShakespeare Requirement.
It is so well written and so onthe money, I couldn't get past
the first two chapters.
It was just it was not.
It didn't read like satire tome, like real life, it was just
way too accurate.
And you know, I've changed mymedication since I tried to read
the book.
Maybe I could get through itnow, but it's real, it's real,
(01:02:12):
Okay.
So, despite all those negativethings and there are plenty more
I could have said despite thesampling of negative things, I'm
still glad I won.
Ultimately, my bottom lineadvice is that, whether graduate
school is going to cost you bigin terms of money or time often
both a person should not pursueit unless they know exactly why
(01:02:35):
they're doing it.
And maybe it is an expensivehobby, that is a legitimate
reason.
If that's the reason you'vechosen, that's fine.
But now you know, and thatshould set your expectations for
what will happen at the end.
On the other hand, if you'retrying to have a really secure
job, then you're probably goingto want a different reason,
(01:02:56):
right?
Okay, it's time for me to wrapthis up.
Thank you so much for hangingin there with us.
I want you to know, dearlistener, from the bottom of my
heart, that I know how scary andintimidating academia can be,
and also, nothing would give memore joy than to help decode it
(01:03:18):
for the people, the many, manypeople who are entirely capable
of succeeding there as well andwho would thrive and enjoy it
immensely.
So, if I can help you findthose portals, help demystify it
help you figure out what yourpath is.
If it is through graduateschool, nothing would give me
more joy than to help facilitatethat for you.
(01:03:42):
What concerns do you have aboutgraduate school?
We want to know what would bemost helpful to you to empower
you to live life on your ownterms.
Talk to you soon.
Speaker 1 (01:04:07):
Thank you for spending time with us today.
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
What are your thoughts about college and
recovery from high demandreligion?
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences and we
want to talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atuncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom.
That's uncoveredlifebeyond atgmailcom.
Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode.
Speaker 2 (01:04:47):
Until next time stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward.
This is.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Rebecca, and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path Along the
way, we've uncovered a fewinsights we want to share with
fellow travelers.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up, we are here to cheeryou on and assure you that the
best is yet to come.
Welcome to Uncovered Life.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Beyond.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Hello everyone.
Welcome back to Uncovered LifeBeyond.
This is Naomi.
This is Rebecca.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
So today we have Naomi in the hot seat and I'm
kind of excited about this.
We're going to talk all aboutgraduate school Me too.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Hopefully I won't get too triggered.
School Me too.
Hopefully I won't get tootriggered, because you know,
grad school is wonderful andalso, as I look back on it,
there are lots of triggeringmoments too.
So hopefully, hang with usthrough the nuance.
Well, hopefully everyone willhear the nuance in that and not
just take one, one of thosesides of it, because it was both
(01:43):
awesome and awful.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Yeah, I believe it.
I believe it.
So, to start us off, tell us alittle bit about where you were
at with your life and familywhen you started grad school.
How did that influence yourdecision and some of the things
(02:06):
you did or didn't do?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Okay, well, first let me say that in retrospect I
realized I did everything thewrong way and the fact that I've
landed where I am.
I feel I count myself asextremely lucky to have landed
here, because I mean and I thinkthis is a really common thing
for, especially for those of uswho are first gen or not sure
(02:29):
you know what questions to ask,not sure you know what our
options are and and so yeah, sojust putting that disclaimer out
, please don't anybody take mystory as a guide.
Learn from my mistakes, butalso just know that I'm not
(02:50):
telling my story with any sensethat this is a path anyone
should follow, but I will behappy to share what I learned
and what I wish I had known Wellon that note, though I think
for many of us who have left and, like you said, are first
generation students, most of usaren't necessarily doing it the
(03:12):
right way, or the best way, orthe most easy way.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Right, correct.
At this point.
Typically, ideal isn'tnecessarily a part of the
equation anymore.
You just kind of are in thesuck it up buttercup mode and
make it happen, however it needsto happen.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
You are absolutely right.
That's so true, so true.
So where was I?
Well, I had started undergradat 25.
So I was, I'd already gotten alate start, it felt.
It felt like I did, although Iknow that's that's all relative
and we all do things indifferent timeframes.
Okay, so four years latergraduated, I was married and we
(03:59):
moved to central Missouri for mynow ex's job, and I took about
two years between undergrad andgrad school, and during that
time I was trying to figure outwhat I wanted to do.
So, a of all, I was learningthe hard reality that the days
(04:20):
of an English degree or anydegree making you more
marketable was really out oftouch.
Advice that I had beenfollowing, and I did have some
ideas, and I also knew thatthere wasn't much.
I couldn't be job searchingduring my last semester or last
(04:41):
year of college because I wasn'tsure where we were going to end
up and where we ended up wascompletely unfamiliar.
So I just waited till we gotthere, and then it took a while
to find something, because,guess what, In rural Missouri,
people are not begging forEnglish majors, so Not a lot of
(05:03):
options.
Are not begging for Englishmajors, so not a lot of options.
No, no, and so I ended up.
I did a few months at anonprofit and I spent most of
the time working as a legalsecretary.
And it paid as well as anythingthat I was exploring, you know,
any of the other options I had.
It wasn't great, but it was aswell as anything I could get.
(05:26):
I also got a little bit ofexperience interning at the
state capitol during that time.
So there were a number ofthings that were.
They were all learningexperiences, all worthwhile
learning experiences, but notnecessarily fun learning
experiences.
But at least I wasn't findingmy place with any of those.
So during those two years I wasalso exploring grad school
(05:49):
options.
I thought about law school.
I took the LSAT and my scoreswere not exciting.
I did get waitlisted for a lawschool but I just, yeah, I ended
up deciding not to do that.
I thought about other fields.
I mean, I really enjoyed myEnglish undergrad, thought about
(06:11):
sociology because I wasinterested in some of the kind
of cultural, social concerns,and I was also thinking about
English because I liked thewriting.
I enjoyed the writing, Ienjoyed the research part of
literary studies, but I couldn'tdecide which of those two I was
most interested in.
(06:31):
Oh, and I should say too, I wasalso looking at other jobs at
this time and I was looking atother options.
I was looking at whether or notI should get a paralegal
certificate and continue in thelegal field.
So I realize now the right wayto get into the right way the
quote unquote right way to finda graduate program is to
(06:54):
identify the field that you wantto be in and then look at the
programs, look at the scholarsin the field, find out kind of
where you think your niche mightbe and then pursue that
location, pursue that college oruniversity you know, rather
than looking like, like you say,I mean, this was, this is what
(07:17):
we as non-traditional studentsoften do.
We're graphically bound, wehave.
We just got his new job and sowe were going to stay there a
while and so, even if I hadexplored other universities, we
weren't necessarily going tomove there.
I mean, that wasn't the plan.
So for me, grad school was oneoption among others.
(07:40):
So if I had found a job Ireally liked, I would have done
that instead that makes sense.
And the advice, and so alsowe're looking at so 2006.
So it's just a couple.
You know the economy wasalready starting to tank a
little.
Yeah, I mean it didn't reallyhit for another year or two, but
it was.
(08:01):
It was heading that way and sojobs weren't plentiful.
But it was heading that way andso jobs weren't plentiful and I
(08:26):
loved school and so grad schoolwas really tempting for those
reasons.
So as I was looking at theEnglish program there at the
University of Missouri, I sawthat they had, without knowing
about rhetoric and compositionI'm sure I heard about it
somewhere but it didn't registerbut what I saw was that this
was a subfield of English thatfocused on writing and research
about how we learn to write, andthen also there was also an
element of cultural critique init, in the rhetoric.
So this like combined thethings I loved and you know, and
(08:48):
then I was learning about howyou get funding and
assistantships when you go intothese programs.
I was like that sounds more funthan a job.
Hello, again, terrible, aterrible reason to go into grad
school.
But I applied and they offeredme a really nice fellowship and
(09:08):
let me say this too, my GREscores were not impressive.
So let me just say anyone whotakes one of those standardized
tests like LSAT or GRE orsomething like that and gets
substandard scores, just knowit's not the end of the road.
Substandard scores just knowit's not the end of the road.
You might have to try adifferent path, but I still got
(09:29):
offered a really nice fellowshipeven what that means, what a
fellowship means it's like ascholarship.
So on top of getting paid forteaching courses while I was in
graduate school, I also got astipend on top of that.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Okay and so.
So it's pretty typical for gradstudents to be teaching as well
, correct?
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Well, let's, that's a really important question and I
want to get to that and I haveit a little further down in the
notes because I definitely wantto talk about what is the
difference?
There's kind of two kinds oftwo buckets of graduate programs
, as it were.
And that's an important part ofit.
So, anyway, this is kind ofgetting along.
(10:14):
So some other things that wereweighing on my mind I was almost
30.
I was reading all thesearticles in the news about how
fertility tanks after 30.
And I knew that going into anyhumanities program was not a
quick ticket to a good job.
(10:35):
I mean, I knew that academia itdidn't feel like a secure
career path for me, so, but Iwanted to study those things, I
mean, and I also there were.
So I also wanted to have kidsand I realized like, well, I
knew it'd be really really hardto have children while I was in
(10:56):
grad school and I knew that alsogoing to grad school and
humanities program was noguarantee of anything.
But I finally came to theconclusion like I could end up
almost 40, which is about what Iwould be.
So this is I was looking at aseven year program.
So I could end up almost 40 andhave no career and no kids.
(11:20):
Like I could give myself everygive, give everything to grad
school and end up without kidsand no career.
And let me tell you that's insome ways, that's more likely
than not for someone going intoa humanities area of grad school
, and I don't say that becauseit's a bad idea, just that
that's the reality of it's, theunfortunate reality.
(11:40):
But the other thing was like,well, could I do that and have
kids, so that at least, if thecareer doesn't work out at the
end, I at least have kids, I'dhave a family.
So that's what I ended up,that's what I decided to do.
Good for you.
Well, I don't know.
I mean I feel lucky for how ithas ended up.
(12:02):
But again I landed in asubfield of the humanities, the
one subfield probably, I meanthere might be a few others, but
I don't know of them, I'm surebut one of the very, very few
subfields in the humanitieswhere the job prospects were
relatively good.
I mean, yeah, and I didn't knowthat when I selected it.
(12:25):
So again, don't do what I did,I know what you're getting into.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
When you talk about humanities, talk to us a little
bit about what that means,specifically in academia.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Yes, thank you.
Yes, yes, yes.
Yes, the term liberal arts iskind of this broad term that
covers fields like English,history, sociology, languages,
you know, religious studies, andthen there's also the arts and
also sciences like biology,chemistry, geography, geology,
(13:02):
right, all those.
So these are these broad fieldsof study of a particular
subject and they're kind ofthese traditional fields of
study.
They've been around for a longtime.
So that that's, the humanitiesis one section of that, and the
humanities is like english,philosophy, what else?
(13:22):
Why am I blanking uming?
And I should just say, too,these categories are fuzzy.
English is definitelyhumanities, but when you go to
any institution and you see whatall they include under
humanities, it's not necessarilygoing to be the exact same
thing as another institution, sothat's-.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
There's variables within it.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
There's variables, for sure, and I mean anyone who
is really wanting to understandthis and maybe we can put a link
in the show notes of a diagramthat kind of shows the
relationship between thesedifferent fields, and it will
make a lot more sense then.
So that's so.
Yeah, so humanities, thingslike English.
Does that answer the question?
(14:07):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Okay, I think of those graduateprograms as one bucket.
The other bucket are like thepre-professional programs or
like applied fields, likenursing medical school, physical
therapy, like nursing medicalschool physical therapy.
Yeah, well, although likepsychology.
(14:27):
So this is where it gets alittle fuzzy too, because
psychology would be a socialscience, so in that way it's
like one of the liberal arts,right?
But then when we're talkingcounseling yeah, that now we're
talking professional, yeah, andeven within psychology you'll
have a PhD program in psychology.
(14:49):
Research-based is going to lookvery different from what a
program in counseling, like amaster's degree in counseling,
is going to look just verydifferent In terms of what you
do, in terms of the commitmentexpected, in terms of what your
job prospects are afterward.
It's just very, very different,even though there's lots of
(15:11):
topical overlap.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Right.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
So how did I decide to do it?
It worked out, yeah, and I waskind of pretending, I realize
now I was assuming I had allkinds of privilege that well, I
kind of did but kind of didn't.
I mean it worked out.
So that speaks to some of thatprivilege that I had.
I was able to succeed, but alsoI didn't know the risk I was
(15:36):
taking, right, yeah, I wouldn'trecommend anyone else do what I
did, unless they areindependently wealthy and they
don't need a paycheck and theydon't need to save for
retirement.
So that's that's that.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
That's that, and so your specific program was seven
years commitment.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
What?
Well, yes, yes and no, so itwas.
The program I applied to was amaster's, phd, and so graduate
school encompasses master's andPhD.
So the expected timeline wasthat it would take two years to
get the master's degree and thenfive years to do the PhD.
(16:21):
And the benefit of doing thiswas that I didn't have to then
go apply.
You know, once I finished mymaster's program I didn't have
to go reapply.
But if I had successfullycompleted that, I could continue
that.
And that worked out really wellfor me, because my daughter was
born my second year of gradschool.
(16:43):
And guess what?
Pregnancy, childbearing, bigenergy sucks, because that's
important work.
And graduate school wasdesigned for wealthy white males
who have families supportingthem, okay, so you can see the
tension there.
(17:04):
So definitely not me.
And so, all that to say, Ididn't get my thesis finished on
time, but what I was able to dowas that third year start PhD
coursework while I was stillfinishing up my master's degree.
So technically it took me threeyears to get my master's degree
done instead of two, but itstill worked out to seven, seven
(17:25):
years total.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
So you played catch up and it worked, yeah.
So what did you find youenjoyed most about grad school?
Speaker 2 (17:33):
This is a good question, because there was so
much I did enjoy the opportunityto read, like when you know.
This is the cool thing aboutgoing to college is like your
quote unquote job.
You know what you're signed upfor is reading things you know,
and when you're in grad schoolyou get to focus on things that
are on topics that are ofparticular interest to you,
(17:55):
right, and so on the Enneagram Iusually come out as a three,
but sometimes I wonder if I'mreally a five and there's
something about whateverfiveness I have was really
gratified by those deep dives.
I made friends and I never gotto spend as much time and
develop those relationships asmuch as I would have liked.
(18:16):
But thankfully Facebook it wasjust coming on the scene then,
and so that's allowed me to atleast keep somewhat in contact.
There were colleagues that Ireally admired, and so one of
the trade-offs of having kids isthat the recommendation was you
can do grad school in one hobby.
That's it.
The reality is, you will nothave time for anything other
(18:39):
than that, and so my hobby waskids, and so that did not leave
much time at all for socializing, and I really regret that.
(19:09):
I wish I could have learned toknow so many of my colleagues
better.
That said, the new experiences,you know, opportunities to hear
.
So at big universities they'llhave people come speak.
So I heard people likeMadeleine Albright and, oh,
barack Obama came, he was, hewas campaigning, and he came to
our campus and I wanted to go,but then I was five months
pregnant or something.
Anyway, I was just concernedabout being in a massive crowd
of people without access tobathrooms.
Yeah, so we ended up not going,but but we got t shirts.
I'll always regret I didn't gosee Maya Angelou when she came.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Yeah, and so that's.
It's all the things that comewith it, like all the things
that are not technically part ofthe program.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
The bonuses.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
The bonuses are really awesome.
Some really good advice that Iwas given early on or that we
were given early on was that inthe program was don't try to
predict which field you shouldgo into because of what the
world's going to look like inseven years when you graduate.
Instead, focus on somethingthat you care about so much that
(20:04):
, even if you end up with no job, at the end you say, okay, that
was worth it.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
That still sounds scary, though, because some of
us need a paycheck.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Exactly, exactly, and that was good advice.
I mean, that was because youknow, if you don't have a trust
fund, where does that leave youand also, during those seven
years you're not saving up forretirement.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Right yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
And there's no money for savings Right.
But I think the advice is goodin terms of how to approach it
and this is why it's anexpensive hobby.
Someone who is in undergrad andwho is considering grad school,
my advice is only get as mucheducation, like formal education
, as you absolutely need toreach your dreams, unless unless
(20:52):
it's like you're doing awriting program, an MFA program
or you know a writing program,just for the sheer personal
benefit of it.
I think that's the ideal way todo college.
Just do it for the fun of it.
I mean, that's how, that's thebest way to do it, but most of
us can't afford to do that, sothat went off on a rabbit trail.
Bring me back.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
So tell me, what surprised you most about grad
school.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
I think what I was least prepared for so in that
sense it surprised me was thepolitics, because I think the
reason I did so well, one of thereasons I did so well in
undergrad is I'm a really goodrule follower a lot of the time
until I'm not, and then upthrough undergraduate, following
directions will really get youfar.
(21:38):
It'll get you good grades andthose grades will open doors.
But once you finish undergrad,being a rule follower puts you
at the back of the line.
Interesting and alsointeresting, is that gender, how
gender plays into this.
And yes, women get morebachelor's degrees than men now
(22:00):
in the last what decade or so.
But guess who still has thehigh paying jobs?
Not women.
So men still out earn women,even though women are getting
more degrees.
So what I was least prepared forwere the politics of it,
because the politics managingthe politics, navigating the
politics of graduate school, ofacademia, is not about rule
(22:24):
following, it's aboutrelationships.
I wasn't prepared for how muchillogical behavior that I would
witness in a place that taughtme how to think logically and in
retrospect, this is justinstitutions.
This is what institutions doRight, and people within them
exhibit that same behavior.
And and also like.
(22:46):
We're all human and, whether wedeny our illogical behavior or
not, we are not logical animals.
Right, we might like to imaginethat, we might aspire to be
that, but, but the reality is no, that's not how it works, and
so things that reallydisappointed me were moments and
let me say it's moments, it'snot the whole entire thing, but
(23:09):
there were moments where I wouldhear people make snap judgments
about other people, and maybeit was other people who you know
, maybe I identified with someaspect of their identity.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
And.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
I hear them make snap judgments about them, and that
taught me to shut up real quickabout my background.
Unless, I felt let me rephrasethat Maybe not shut up, but at
least be really careful when youtalk about, Because I saw
people or at least I heard aboutsnap judgments being made that
(23:40):
were maybe the exact opposite ofwhat was appropriate in the
situation but because of thesnap judge that kind of thing,
so that I wasn't prepared forthat.
Again, this is not everybody,this is not the whole time, but
it did happen, and it happenedmore than I expected.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
And it definitely influenced the way you presented
yourself Totally totally, whichhere and here's the thing again
.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
when you fracture yourself Totally, totally.
And here's the thing again.
When you fracture yourself likethat and you cut off part of
your identity to fit in with thepresent, it will give you a
certain amount of success, butit also isolates you in a
certain way.
Because people don't really knowall of who you are, they just
know that one side of you.
And I remember talking with oneof my friends there in grad
(24:27):
school who was well, she wasalso non-traditional, she's from
Jamaica and she taught me howto make this amazing ginger lime
punch or something it's notalcoholic, but anyway, it was so
good I had her come over to myhouse and show me how to make it
.
Anyway, she was great and wewould study together.
Sometimes I was talking withher about my background and her
(24:48):
experience, of course, was beinga Black woman in academia in a
very white institution, and so Iwas lamenting the way that, by
passing, I felt isolated and shesaid well, she said, but you
have the privilege of passing.
She said I can't.
I was like, oh yeah, so yeah, Ifeel like it's a double-edged
(25:13):
sword.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
So what do you wish?
You would have known previously, before you got started.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Well, one of the things is, I wish I would have
understood how to research thefield.
I mean, I did look at stuffonline but I wasn't sure what to
look for Right.
How would you know?
How would I know Right?
And then you know I was lookingat, you know message boards
about law school, message boardsabout different kinds of
graduate school or differentfields.
(25:40):
You know different career pathsand I finally came to the
realization oh, they are alllike they're all terrible.
I mean there are horror storiesin all of them.
Yeah, and I realized I couldn'tlet the horror stories make the
decision for me, like I had tobe aware of those potential
pitfalls but also to realizeit's not.
(26:01):
I can't just pick a field toavoid, avoid the messiness.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Potential yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Because I can talk about the horrors of employment,
the job market for academics,but I was reading horror stories
about lawyers working for $20an hour after they'd been to law
school and in horrible workingconditions people in the field.
Then I would hear about thisprogram or that program and I
would go oh man, I didn't know,I didn't know to even look there
(26:44):
.
I didn't even know that.
That would have been a greatfit for me If.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
I would have only known I could have applied there
.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
But also, I was kind of stuck there in Missouri so it
wasn't like I was goinganywhere else.
I was kind of stuck there inMissouri so it wasn't like I was
going anywhere else.
So again, if I could do it overagain, I would look at that and
I remember trying to Googlethis kind of thing to find out.
But I just knew so little aboutthe subfield and, yeah, I went
into it blind, which wasdefinitely not ideal.
(27:11):
I mean, again, happy where Ihave ended up.
So I scraped through.
But it could have been easier.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
The sad thing, the difficult thing, is you don't
know what you don't know, butthen you also don't know how to
look for what you don't know.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Exactly, Exactly.
And there are some good booksout there and thankfully, I did
come across one of them that Iread.
I think it was maybe my firstyear in the program because I
think it was recommended by someof the mentors there and I will
link it in the show notes, butit's a graduate study in the
21st century and even thoughthis was published in 2010, so
(27:50):
we live in a different worldthan 2010, as I remember it, a
lot of that advice still stands.
Some people don't like thatbook because they say he's too
harsh.
I think he's just.
He's saying it like it isSaying some of the quiet stuff
out loud.
Yes, yes, and he is not beatingaround the bush about how much
(28:12):
it demands of you, gotcha, Ithink it's a really good, really
good book, especially for firstgen students.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
So you also mentioned the importance of knowing how
to evaluate status and mentorsand relationships.
Tell me more about that.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
So, you know, I think you and I grew up around the
idea and I think, well, we doembrace this idea of valuing
everyone equally and not valuingthem on the basis of their
status within a community.
I mean, you and I know howhurtful that can be, and this is
not something that is a newdevelopment for you and me,
right, you know, like this issomething that I have embraced
(28:52):
and I know you have too, too fora very long time.
It turns out, though, you can'tignore it, and it doesn't mean
you have to buy into that valuesystem, but you can't ignore it.
So, for example, in academia,when we think of high status
institutions, high statusuniversities, we think of the
(29:12):
Ivy Leagues, and, on one hand,do you get a better education
there?
Well, maybe, because, guesswhat?
They do have better resources,and you're going to get to know
people and make professionalcontacts there that you're not
going to make at a state school,at some state schools anyway.
So it does matter, and peoplewill judge you based on that
(29:35):
right.
So, even if it doesn't matterto you, it matters to other
people.
It can influence your future inways you might not be prepared
for.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
So it becomes a little bit about knowing how to
play the game of chess.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And along with that, theimportance of mentors and
relationships.
This is again it's not enoughjust to get an A, it's not
enough to go to class, it's notenough to do the work that's
assigned to you.
You've got to cultivaterelationships with mentors
because they are your entreeinto the field, especially in a
humanities setting.
But I think in general, that'sreally important, but definitely
(30:11):
in a humanities PhD program.
It's all about networksFascinating, yeah.
And who can recommend you forwhat?
And who's going to actuallygive you a glowing
recommendation, or who's goingto damn you with faint praise?
This is why you got to be niceto everybody, even the jerks,
(30:32):
yeah, yeah, I know.
Ask me why it's triggering, wow.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
So in many ways I have observed that a lot of the
same skills you need in the highdemand religious world are the
exact same skills that will getyou through academia.
I take it that you would seethat as well.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
And here's the thing that can be one of our resources
that folks like us who haveexperienced educational neglect
and high demand religion candraw on, and it's about
understanding how egos workunderstanding, in fact, we
usually do really wellfunctioning in a hierarchy.
(31:19):
We know what to do in ahierarchy, and if you know what
to do in a hierarchy, thenyou're going to do well here.
Do you know what I'm saying?
That gives you.
That is one way to navigate.
But here's the thing it's aculture that is often not very
direct.
It is a culture that peoplewill say things to you that in
(31:44):
the moment you think they'recomplimenting you and then you
walk away and you realize, oh,that was a burn, that was a diss
.
That was a burn, that was a.
That was a diss.
Like I had one of my advisorsafter my second child was born
at my baby shower.
Everybody threw for me afterthe baby was born and my then
mother-in-law was there and thismentor says so.
(32:06):
Well, I hope Naomi gets herfocus back on school now.
It crushed me because I wasvery conscious of needing to
keep doing everything.
I was back on campus with thebaby less than two weeks after
he was born.
Wow, on stage at thispresentation thing, wow.
(32:27):
And then I talked to my mainmentor and I was like wait, wait
, is that how you feel about me?
And she assured me that no,that was I don't know.
I don't know what game she wastrying to play by saying that to
my mother-in-law, but I'm justsaying that's the kind of yeah,
(32:47):
that kind of nonsense.
Does that stop me?
No, does that mean that I can'tcontinue doing what I'm doing?
No, it doesn't stop me.
Is it disappointing?
Is it annoying?
Yes, especially when thesepeople also hold your future in
their hands, right?
Speaker 1 (33:02):
At the same time, there's a part of it that
probably felt a little bitfamiliar.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
And you just have to know andthis is where, knowing why
you're going to grad school.
And you know, I spent those twoyears between undergrad and
grad school in jobs that werenot good fits for me, right, but
every minute of those two yearswas worth it, because once I
did get to graduate school and I, you know I had those moments,
(33:27):
those hard times I would go well, do I want to be here, or would
I rather be back in that beigeoffice?
And the answer was always aresounding I want to be here,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Yeah, so tell me a little bit about graduate
programs and kind of how theyoperate.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Okay, so I mentioned earlier that graduate programs
fall in these two categories.
On one you have these artshumanities, these more
traditional fields.
Then on the other side we havethese more applied professional
degree programs.
They are different in a numberof ways.
I'm going to try to run throughthese differences pretty as
quickly as I can.
So the more traditionalhumanities kinds of programs,
(34:06):
which is what I did thoseprograms tend to emphasize
research and teaching.
So what that looked like for mefor my master's was doing, I
think, three semesters ofcoursework and then one semester
of writing my thesis, and thethesis is I don't know 50 page
research project.
And then for the PhD part,there were two years of
(34:29):
coursework and then one year ofreading for comprehensive exams,
which was a list of 100 booksthat I put together with with
feedback from my mentors, andthey were on different.
You know, I had differentsubject areas that I was
focusing in on.
But the idea was like afterthat, like I really man, that
(34:50):
was so valuable because at theend of that year I had a much
more comprehensive sense of thefield.
You know, I could pick up anyarticle at that point and
understand oh, they're talkingabout this and they're
mentioning this and they'rereferring to that, you know, and
so, like that was, that wasreally helpful.
Ok, so that was a year for thecomprehensive exam and and at
(35:12):
the end of that then I wouldwrite a paper that passed Back
in the day, they would put youin a room, isolated room, at the
end of reading all those booksand you had to write an essay
and you didn't see the promptuntil they handed it to you and
you had to write it on the spot.
So, yeah, mine was much morehumane.
I got to write it on my owntime, with revisions and
(35:34):
everything, of course, sure.
But then the last two yearswere for writing my dissertation
, and that's a book-lengthindependent research project.
Okay, let's talk about some ofthe ways they're different.
So, within a more appliedprofessional now, I've not done
one, so I've only observedothers who have done them.
From what I observed is thatthey focus a lot more on
coursework.
(35:54):
They are often designed forworking adults, and so they
often do not demand your wholeentire life the way humanity or
I keep saying humanities, it'snot just humanities, but like
the PhD programs, do.
They also include internshipswhere you're doing on the job,
(36:15):
you know where you're working,you're learning on the job, that
kind of thing.
So usually the traditional,these traditional PhD programs,
there's not as muchout-of-pocket cost.
But the way they get fundedoften ideally is that you teach
undergrad courses while you aretaking graduate courses and then
(36:37):
that covers your tuition andgives you a small stipend.
I mean you can borrow on top ofthat, which I did, because I
had kids in daycare and let metell you that is not pretty.
I'm going, how am I ever goingto pay for their college?
I've already paid for theirdaycare, anyway.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
So it's fair.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
It's true.
But here's the other thing,though because I work at a
nonprofit now right, and it's auniversity I am eligible for
loan forgiveness, and within thenext few months, that loan is
supposed to go away, thatmassive, massive loan that I
graduated with.
Now I've been paying on it allthis time and, to give you a
sense of what happens to theinterest, I've been paying on it
(37:16):
for most of this time and thebalance stays steady.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
That's just awful.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
When people get their loans forgiven it's usually
that they have more than paidback.
The principal what's beingquote unquote forgiven is the
outrageous interest that getscharged.
It's insane.
Yeah, okay, researchexpectations with the more
traditional PhD program you'reexpected to do research and that
(37:42):
research gets again.
The more advanced you get, themore very, very, very specific
nitty gritty your focus becomes.
You get that teachingexperience.
Often at the end, like if amaster's or PhD you do generally
, you do a thesis ordissertation.
That's what kind of.
That's the kind of adistinctive factor about it
where with some professionalprograms, you might write, you
(38:05):
might have the option of writinga thesis or you might have to
just take an exam.
I say just, I mean that's it'sjust picking, picking your
stress, type of stress, expectedcareer paths.
If you get a PhD, theexpectation is you're going to
go into academia because you'relearning how to research.
I mean you know it has notreally prepared you for anything
(38:27):
else specifically other thanthat You've become an expert in
this area.
And they's not jobs for that,because it was not designed to
be job training College wasn't.
On the other hand, when you getinto an applied professional
degree program, oh, and this isthe thing we should talk about
for-profit colleges and onlinefor-profit colleges.
(38:47):
Because here's the thing I knowpeople who have found out once
they'd done the program or oncethey were in a program and they
were looking at certification.
Like you read the fine printand you find out about
requirements no one ever toldyou about, you had no idea and
you didn't know to go look forthose requirements and one of
(39:07):
the requirements in one of thoseprocesses was that none of the
courses could be from an onlineinstitution.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
When you see advertisements from the
University of Phoenix and allthese online places.
They do such a good marketingjob of making themselves look
legit and yet folks in academiaare generally very they hold
those in suspect because theywant your money and whether or
(39:38):
not you get an education is kindof beside the point.
And I say that, and I'm surethere are exceptions to that,
but I'm just saying that's theperception.
That's the perception, but itdoes give you an expected career
path.
So when you get out ofcounseling, out of a counseling
program, the assumption isyou're going to be a counselor
Status.
Why does status matter?
(39:59):
So I talked about this a littlebit before.
Often with status comes morefunding opportunities and that
allows you to do more stuff andwhether that's research or you
know some kind of innovativeteaching approach or some kind
of interdisciplinary thing orwhatever.
So status matters notintrinsically, but pragmatically
.
It matters in terms of whatdoors it will open for you or
(40:20):
not, and not saying it's fair orright, just saying that's how
it is.
Then the payoff and thebenefits.
So, hypothetically, if you arecool with living in poverty for
about seven years and kind ofscratching through some of your
prime child bearing years, oftenprime earning years, years when
(40:42):
you're going to benefit themost from saving for retirement.
If you're willing to live ingenteel poverty for those seven
years, you know well, then youmight have a stable career.
I'm lucky to have one, althoughmy son was asking me how much I
make the other night I was likeI don't know if I should tell
you or not.
And then I did and he goes Mom,that's all he said.
(41:06):
How do you buy us all thisstuff?
Speaker 1 (41:09):
The question I ask every day, the question that's,
that's, that's it.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Well, I see, you know , just a few years ago, if I
would have said I make $10,000 ayear he'd go $10,000.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Why can't I?
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Yeah, that's a lot of money Right, and so that was
interesting.
It was very gratifying to hearmy son say that.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Okay, so tell me a little bit.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
The contrast with that is like if I'd gone to to
law school and would be workingfor a big law firm, I'd be
making you know three times,four times what I'm making now.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Right, so it took me a bit to remember the difference
between the different degrees.
Tell me more about that.
So we have your associates, wehave the bachelors, we have
masters and then the PhD.
Break that down for us.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
So that's a great question and just for our
listeners, Rebecca needed toleave, she had some folks coming
by and so I'm going to try tofinish this up, and apologies
for the monologue, but I'll tryto make this as painless as
possible.
So what's the differencebetween the different degrees?
(42:23):
So when you hear associate'sdegree, that's usually a
two-year degree and that isoften what you can get at a
community college.
Now, that could be something inthe humanities like English or
history or psychology or socialsciences, or it could be
(42:44):
technical training, paralegalcertificate or something like
that.
So there's kind of a broadrange.
The bachelor's degree, then, istypically a four-year degree.
You're not going to be able toget that at a community college,
but you can get that at afour-year institution.
You know small liberal artscollege usually, and a large
institution as well.
Right, that's kind of the mosttypical one that we think of
(43:07):
when we think of going tocollege.
Master's degree that's usuallythe first degree level in
graduate school.
So once you have a bachelor'sdegree, you've graduated from a
four-year institution if youwant to go on.
So with the master's degreecomes an association of what
usually prepares you formanagement level jobs in the
(43:28):
pre-professional fields.
But then the doctorate or PhDinvolves writing a dissertation,
and so that's kind of the upperlevel of graduate school, as it
were.
So when you hear people talkabout graduate school, they're
talking about the master's anddoctorate level, both, and then
(43:50):
breaks down in that way.
Also, there are programs likedoctor of physical therapy,
doctor of education.
That is a little different froma PhD.
A PhD is often seen as the mostprestigious of those, and I
mean that's my impression, butthat doesn't mean it's you know,
(44:11):
inherently better.
You know it's all depends onwhat your needs are, your
individual needs, on yourindividual goals and ambitions
are.
But just to understand thatthey are not exactly the same
and how they are different canreally vary from institution to
institution.
So the last question thatRebecca had for me here before
(44:31):
she left was what advice I wouldhave for someone looking at
grad school or considering it,and so I have a list of things
to be thinking about for anyonewho's considering graduate
school or wondering if it's theright thing for them.
Since I can't go back in timeand tell myself what questions I
should have been asking, I hopethis might be helpful for
(44:53):
someone else who is wonderingabout whether it's relevant for
them or not.
Okay, so one thing to understandis that at every level of
education in general, we arelearning how to be increasingly
independent in what we study,and so that certainly continues.
So at you know, with abachelor's degree you can major
(45:16):
in a particular subject area andsubject areas of interest to
you, right, and so that's morespecialized than high school.
But once you get to graduateschool, it becomes even more
specialized than undergrad, wasbachelor's degree, and then, of
course, PhD.
It's even more specialized.
So when someone is veryeducated, usually in this
(45:36):
context, is that they are veryeducated in a specific field.
This is where I find a lot ofhumility in what I know and
don't know, where I realize justhow little shame there is in
admitting to what I don't know,right, Because nobody can know
all the things.
And the deeper you go in oneparticular area, the more you
(45:58):
realize.
Oh wait, all the other areashave this kind of granularity as
well, and so for me it inspireshumility.
Another piece of advice would beto get familiar with the
scholarship in your field soyou're prepared to enter the
conversation, or at least knowwhat questions are relevant to
the field, because that is a wayof establishing your
(46:18):
credibility as a scholar is whenyou are engaging with what
other scholars in the field havesaid, and that is an
expectation in graduate school.
It's not just about kind ofgetting out there and saying
whatever you want to say.
It's really about engaging withwhat scholars before you have
said and that's you know how youshow your relevance to the
(46:41):
field.
One way to find out what'sgoing on in a field you're
considering is to find theconferences in the field and
just read through their.
You know what kind of topicspeople are talking about at the
conference.
You don't have to go, don't goto the conference, just read
about them and see what peopleare talking about, and then that
(47:03):
should lead you to some of thebiggest journals in the field.
In fact, you can just searchfor major journals in X field.
You know, skimming throughthose doesn't say exactly what
you're going to study, but itgives you an idea of what people
are interested in talking aboutin that field generally, and
that's just important to knowwhether or not you follow
whatever.
(47:24):
The current trend is Also readInside Higher Ed and the
Chronicle of Higher Education.
These are more news outletsthat write about the realities
of university life, of academia,and you know, every now and
then there will be an article inthere that will really tick
people off.
(47:44):
There will be an article inthere that will really tick
people off, and you know,usually in my experience it's
usually when someone writes avery opinionated article about
something that has nothing to dowith their field of study and
reveals their ignorance.
It's again it can be reallyhelpful just for getting a sense
of how people are, what peopleare talking about, what kinds of
concerns are going on, becauseinformation is power.
(48:05):
All right, I talked earlierabout understanding how higher
education is extremelyrelationship based, and part of
this, too, is becomingenculturated into it.
I'm not sure what percentage ofundergraduate college students
are first gen, but it's asignificant number, significant
(48:28):
percentage.
There's a much smallerpercentage of graduate students
who are first generation, and sothe norms of white middle-class
culture are even more expectedat the graduate level.
And when you come from a workingclass background, it often
(48:50):
comes off as really snooty andpretentious, and it can be.
But I would encourage anyonewho is going into higher
education and is aware, Iencourage you to be aware of it,
but not to let it intimidateyou and just kind of hold it
lightly.
It is what it is.
Make a note Underneath thatpretentiousness there might or
(49:12):
seeming pretentiousness might bea really sweet person who's
just talking the way they'vealways, the way everybody around
them has always talked.
Or it could be someone who is ajerk, and you just don't know
until you get to know thembetter.
Another thing when you go toselect a committee, so when
you're writing your dissertationor your thesis, you have a
committee of faculty, ofprofessors, who are going to
(49:36):
evaluate your work and theydecide whether or not you pass,
and if you pass you get a PhD ora master's degree or not.
So you definitely want to keepthem happy.
Now, there's kind of atrade-off here, or there can be,
because since they are in manyways kind of your sponsors in
(49:57):
the field you're going into, whothey are can really matter.
If they have a veryrecognizable name, a name that's
really respected or that youknow people look up to in the
field, that can open a lot ofdoors for you, because they, you
know, the assumption is well,if you're working with so-and-so
, you must be pretty good.
So, but at the same time therecan be a trade-off, because
(50:21):
sometimes scholars like that arereally focused on building
their careers and mentoring,being there for their grad
students, responding to gradstudents' questions and emails
drafts in a timely manner.
It's just not a priority forthem.
It's hard to know this at theoutset, but it's really helpful.
(50:45):
It can be really helpful to askaround who do you have as your
who's, your advisor?
Why did you decide to pick them?
Obviously it's going to need tobe in your subfield, but also
you need to think about thepotential trade-offs there,
because sometimes someone who'snot well-known but really takes
their mentoring seriously isgoing to get you so much further
than someone who's well wellknown but really takes their
mentoring seriously is going toget you so much further than
(51:07):
someone who's well known butdoesn't mentor you.
And there's a handful of folkswho are both mentors at heart
and well known and respected inthe field.
And if you can catch on to oneof those, if you can work with
someone like that, then that'sgoing to serve you really well.
I think one way to also makethat decision is to think about
(51:29):
your future goals.
So, for example, if you arewanting a career in academia, in
a competitive institution oryou know competitive kind of job
or you really want ambitiousand you want to really dedicate
yourself to having a long andrich career rich in the sense,
(51:52):
not in the monetary sense thenthe status of the institution
probably does matter, and mysense is that in the more
liberal arts humanities programs, the more liberal arts
humanities programs, statusmatters more.
Where in more appliedprofessional programs maybe it
(52:15):
doesn't as much, but that's abig maybe.
I think again, it depends andit's worth looking into.
It's not to say that the statusof the place where you get your
degree determines the rest ofyour career, but it can
certainly open and close doors.
Again, not saying this is fairor the way things should be done
.
I'm just saying this is the waythings are often done and so
(52:36):
getting a sense of whatinstitutions are respected, what
are not, can be reallyimportant, what or not, can be
really important.
I think the more clear a personis about why they're going to
graduate school, what theirgoals are, the better off
they'll be, just because thereare lots of opportunities that
come along in life that you haveto say no to.
(52:58):
I missed a lot of importantlife events and extended family
things like weddings, funeralsnot all of them, but I missed
many of them because graduateschool just did not allow for
the flexibility to do that.
Also, if there was a jobopportunity that came up during
(53:19):
that seven-year period, I had tostick with what I was doing or
I would have had to walk awayfrom you know what three, four
years of work without anythingto show for it.
And I think what can be reallyimportant to be thinking about
as you are writing yourapplication essays for grad
school what's your professionalnarrative and what's the
(53:40):
narrative of your life.
The more that you can turn thatinto a story that makes sense
and so that it makes sense, why,given your background, why
you're doing what you're doingnow and where you want it to
take you, the more it will helppeople you meet have a sense of
who you are and it can helpnurture those relationships that
(54:03):
are so, so necessary.
Okay, and I'm sure once I getoff of here I'll think of all
the other things that I wantedto say, that I forgot to say.
But that's the beauty of havinga podcast we can circle back
down the road because there'scertainly more to say about grad
school than what we're talkingabout here.
Okay, so, if I can wrap this up.
(54:24):
This conclusion doesn't look asbrief as it probably should be,
but let's see, see if we can dothis.
So, when I sum up my experiencewith graduate school and
thinking about it in regards tosomeone else, who's thinking
about it and wondering if thisis the thing for them, when I
think about was it worth it?
Was it worth the demands?
Was it worth the opportunitycosts?
(54:44):
Was it worth the demands?
Was it worth the opportunitycosts?
Was it worth the?
You know the negativeexperiences that happened, which
you know are going to happenregardless of what you do.
I want to say two things thatsound contradictory, but instead
of thinking of them, as youknow, contradictory, I hope you
can think of them, as I do, asboth being true.
So, first, I'm incrediblygrateful that I had the luxury
(55:04):
that I could just scrape throughon a seven-year program,
because I was married to someonewho had a stable job and so,
even though we were scraping by,we were still able to survive
needs of some kind.
I would have had to make somehard decisions.
I was also able to finish ontime and there's lots of folks
(55:28):
who aren't able to do that andso I feel very fortunate for
that.
Despite the opportunity costs,the fact that it was accessible
to me as a privilege I don'ttake for granted for a minute.
I met so many wonderful peoplewho I still think of fondly,
even though I am not in a wholelot of contact with them thanks
to Facebook.
They don't feel completely lostto me and I have a sense of
(55:51):
community just knowing that theyare out there across the
country, different institutionsdoing similar work, and we have
that common experience ofsurviving grad school together,
and that really does create along lasting bond.
The work that I do, the teachingthat I do, is more rewarding
now than when I started it, andthat's probably the biggest
(56:13):
understatement in this wholeepisode.
And how many people can saythat about their work?
More than 10 years in, I amalso part of the first
generation of women who can owntheir own house and support
themselves with a respected,stable career Not necessarily a
lucrative one, but it's stable,and my kids and I are doing fine
(56:36):
, and that is no small thing.
All right, so that's all thegood stuff.
At the same time, the emotionalcost of being a student for so
long means that we got yearafter year of that experience of
being a novice and all theuncertainty and powerlessness
and cluelessness that goes withbeing a novice.
The cultural commute from mybackground to graduate school
(56:59):
could have been measured inlight years, and I wasn't always
sure what I would be risking bytalking about my background.
So I generally didn't.
And also, being a mother anddeveloping this emerging
identity as a scholar didn'tleave much room for thoughts of
anything else either.
I'll be honest I've alwayswondered if the reason we are an
ADHD household is because mychildren were bathed in cortisol
(57:24):
and caffeine throughout both mypregnancies because I was in
graduate school.
If I hadn't been in graduateschool, I would have been
working somewhere and maybe itwould have been the same there
too.
I don't know.
I said earlier that graduateschool's emphasis on
relationships is reallyimportant, and this can make
(57:45):
things very thorny when thingsdon't work out.
For example, when you getpassed over for an assistantship
, some kind of a role that youreally need to develop your
qualifications, maybe somethingyou are more than qualified for
and it goes to someone who'sless qualified not because you
(58:07):
did anything wrong necessarily,but maybe that less qualified
person had a closer relationshipwith the one who was doing the
hiring and then you have to turnaround and be collegial to both
of them, because maybe if youplay your cards right, you can
get that position the followingyear and you know there's a very
good chance you are going toneed their goodwill at some
(58:28):
point down the road.
And so, even though it feelsvery unfair, even though there
is absolutely nothing you can doabout it no one you can
complain to except your friendsyou have to suck it up.
If you want to stay in thesystem, if you want to stay in
the program, if you becomesomeone who is always fighting
for what is fair, you're likelyjust as you would at any job
(58:52):
you'll likely be dismissedeventually as a troublemaker.
You're more likely to be seenthat way, Not to say you are
just.
That will be the perception.
Another way this can bite you isif you feel like you're
drowning, just trying to get toall the things you need to get
to do, all the studying you needto do, and also being a mom, a
(59:13):
young mom, so you can feel verybusy juggling responsibilities
to seek out mentors.
So you can feel like, as you'rejuggling all those
responsibilities, you don't evenhave time to seek out
one-on-one conversations withmentors.
And then what is frustrating iswhen you later get called out
because you didn't seek outtheir mentorship.
(59:34):
Or, on the other hand, the flipside is asking for regular
office visits to keep you ontrack with a project and being
told no.
And so, okay, you accept thatthat's their boundary, that
would be too much for them.
But then, a couple of yearslater, the same professor said
they would meet with meregularly after all, because
(59:57):
another student demanded it.
And as I think about it now,I'm struck by how many of these
experiences involved uppermiddle class white guys.
Anyway, probably coincidence,Totally coincidence were working
(01:00:20):
on was keeping the campus fromshutting down the daycare for
parenting students and, spoileralert, they announced the
closure the day before Igraduated.
It wasn't a cheap daycare butit was very convenient.
But all through its 40-yearexistence there had been
(01:00:41):
detractors and people who weretrying to shut it down.
One university administratorwho was responsible for the
center reportedly had said thatpeople with children should be
going to community college.
Now, I don't know if youremember, but in community
college you can't get more thanan associate's degree.
So this was at a largeuniversity where many of those
parents were graduate students.
I don't know what thatadministrator was thinking.
But anyway, so many levels ofeffed up assumptions in that
(01:01:05):
statement, so many timesgraduate school felt like I was
carefully looking both waysbefore crossing the street and
then getting hit by a plane.
And while you're doing this,you're also trying to prove how
smart and capable and collegialand hardworking you are, because
who knows who you will need toask to write you a letter of
recommendation at some pointdown the road right, so you need
(01:01:26):
to stay on everybody's goodside.
So while these are just a fewexamples of the dark side of
graduate school, and while theyare very much hashtag, white
girl hashtag, first worldproblems, they were triggering
at the time and they're stilltriggering when I think back to
them now.
In fact, there's a phenomenalfictional satire set in an
English department in aMidwestern city.
Actually it's part of a seriesit's called Dear Committee
(01:01:50):
Members and then also theShakespeare Requirement.
It is so well written and so onthe money, I couldn't get past
the first two chapters.
It was just it was not.
It didn't read like satire tome, like real life, it was just
way too accurate.
And you know, I've changed mymedication since I tried to read
the book.
Maybe I could get through itnow, but it's real, it's real,
(01:02:12):
Okay.
So, despite all those negativethings and there are plenty more
I could have said despite thesampling of negative things, I'm
still glad I won.
Ultimately, my bottom lineadvice is that, whether graduate
school is going to cost you bigin terms of money or time often
both a person should not pursueit unless they know exactly why
(01:02:35):
they're doing it.
And maybe it is an expensivehobby, that is a legitimate
reason.
If that's the reason you'vechosen, that's fine.
But now you know, and thatshould set your expectations for
what will happen at the end.
On the other hand, if you'retrying to have a really secure
job, then you're probably goingto want a different reason,
(01:02:56):
right?
Okay, it's time for me to wrapthis up.
Thank you so much for hangingin there with us.
I want you to know, dearlistener, from the bottom of my
heart, that I know how scary andintimidating academia can be,
and also, nothing would give memore joy than to help decode it
(01:03:18):
for the people, the many, manypeople who are entirely capable
of succeeding there as well andwho would thrive and enjoy it
immensely.
So, if I can help you findthose portals, help demystify it
help you figure out what yourpath is.
If it is through graduateschool, nothing would give me
more joy than to help facilitatethat for you.
(01:03:42):
What concerns do you have aboutgraduate school?
We want to know what would bemost helpful to you to empower
you to live life on your ownterms.
Talk to you soon.
Speaker 1 (01:04:07):
Thank you for spending time with us today.
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
What are your thoughts about college and
recovery from high demandreligion?
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences and we
want to talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atuncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom.
That's uncoveredlifebeyond atgmailcom.
Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode.
Speaker 2 (01:04:47):
Until next time stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward.
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