September 10, 2024 • 60 mins
What happens when women in a tightly-knit religious community decide they've had enough? It's a scenario rarely considered. Join us as we reflect on the gut-wrenching film directed by Sarah Polley and based on the novel by Miriam Toews.
While the film and novel take a real-life tragedy as their starting points, neither attempts to retell actual events. Instead, they invite us to imagine what might be possible if women owned their collective power, gave voice to their deepest sorrows and dreams, and embraced their faith to leave all they have known behind.
It wasn't just the familiarity of cape dresses and head coverings that resonated with us, but we were gripped by the narrative unfolding on the screen that dared to imagine an entirely different outcome than what is typical in most communities that turn a blind eye to assault and systemic abuse. Sequestered in a hay loft, these fictional women contemplate the violence of forced forgiveness and the restoration that is only possible with distance. In this imagined world, we see an example of how women everywhere might radically accept an unacceptable situation, find healing in mutual accountability, and prioritize the welfare of their loved ones over the egos of complicit men.
Links
Women Talking (IMDB)
Women Talking by Miriam Towes
The Ghost Rapes of Bolivia (Vice)
Why I Want Viewers to Know about the Story Behind Women Talking (TIME)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
This is.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Rebecca, and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path Along the
way, we've uncovered a fewinsights we want to share with
fellow travelers.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
So whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up.
We are here to cheer you on andassure you that the best is yet
to come.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Welcome to Uncovered.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Life Beyond.
Hello everyone, welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.
This is Naomi and this isRebecca.
So just to give everybody apeek behind the curtains here,
(01:16):
we are up early in the morningand so our voices might still be
a little bit creaky Probablyare creaky actually, might still
be a little bit creaky torecord this Probably are creaky
actually.
But, as we've said before, wehave to fit this podcast in
where we can in the cracks oflife, and so this is where we
(01:38):
were able to fit it in.
But today we're going to betalking about the film Women
Talking.
It's available on Amazon Prime,and this is something that has
been on our list for a long timeand as as a topic, and then
recently it came up in a in aFacebook thread and that kind of
(01:59):
brought it back to the top ofour list and we decided let's
just do it.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
You know I'm so glad we decided to do it.
I had read the book probablythree years ago and it
absolutely broke me in ways Iwasn't really expecting, and so
I was really hesitant to watchthe movie because I was afraid
it wouldn't do justice to thebook.
And I was surprised the moviewas very on point.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Right and I was under the impression that there was a
big difference between the bookand the movie, but I didn't see
that at all.
I mean, there were a fewdetails that were different, but
certainly different from theactual situation that it was
based on, which is going to besomething where we're going to
(02:51):
talk about.
Yes, to your point.
I listened to the audio bookfor the first time on Sunday
afternoon and then that eveningI watched the film, and it was
the second watch and, man, Idon't know when I have shed so
many tears.
The next morning my eyes werestill weirdly familiar, Like
there's so many points of itthat are weirdly familiar but
(03:30):
we're probably, I'm probablygetting ahead of ourselves here.
Well, yes, and I just want tosay to that point, you know, I
remember having a similarexperience, seeing FLDS women,
fundamentalist Latter-day Saintswomen, and realizing how much
they look like my mom and auntsand relatives.
(03:54):
And there is, you know, I knowrepresentation is a thing, right
, it's an important thing, is animportant thing, and in moments
when I see my, I realize howrare it is to see our background
in media and it just it hitsdifferent.
(04:15):
I don't know how else to say it, other than it hits different
when you can see yourself inwhat you're consuming.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
And in some ways I give mad respect to whoever did
the work, in costuming and evenin behavior and songs they sang.
This wasn't some silly bonnetripper.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Comedy oh my goodness , comedy.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
oh this, this was, this was a work of respectfully,
yeah, telling everyone's storyyeah, and it did not shy away
from the pain, right right, itdidn't gloss over it, um, and I
think that's what it just for me, was so gutting how even his
story was handled with respectand honor.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Even at the sometimes some of the women reminded him
that he should almost not bethere, Understandably but, I,
just thought it was handled sobeautifully.
Anyway, should we give a littlebit of a backdrop?
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
So the film is based on Miriam Tave's book by the
same name and it is the settingis based on an actual situation
that happened in an old colonyMennonite community in Bolivia.
(06:07):
But in the very beginning ofboth the book and the movie it
says this is an act of femaleimagination and I think, if I
could, I would change that tofeminist imagination, because
the idea is it takes this reallytragic situation and it says
(06:27):
what if there were a differentoutcome?
What if?
And what if?
Instead of just asking forfreedom from oppression, women
said, hey, let's make, or womenor in this case it was women but
those who are oppressed saylet's make our own society.
But this the film is, um, likeit could.
(06:51):
It could be a play, because somuch of it is conversation that
happens up in the hayloft of abarn with this group of women
and as they are deciding whatare they going to do.
There have been this, thisseries of what they call ghost
rapes over the years, wherewomen and girls are waking up
(07:13):
realizing they've been druggedand attacked, but then at least
in the film and I can imaginethat this was if this was not
true to life in terms of thatsituation.
It also reminded me of thecrucible um and uh, the salem
(07:35):
witch trials, but the the blamewas put on women.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Right, it must be the devil, it must be it must be
the devil, it must be theirimagination.
There's one line in this storywhere she says Mariel am I
saying it right?
Said they made us disbelieveourselves.
That was worse than you said.
(08:02):
It correctly?
Isn't that I mean, and isn'tthat, like I think, true for
anyone who's experienced traumaof any kind like the action of
them making us disbelieveourselves?
It invalidates our story, itquestions.
Our story ends up being so muchworse than the actual
(08:24):
experience.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Absolutely.
That's where the real betrayalis.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
And in this case, okay, and again, this is the
story as it was presented in thefilm.
I don't know enough about whatactually happened to say this is
exactly what happened, but Ibelieve this is part of the
setup.
The original situation was thatone of the girls eventually
(08:50):
stayed awake and saw someone andthe perpetrator one of the
perpetrators was caught and thenratted out the rest, and so it
was a handful of these guys whowere doing it, and so it was a
handful of these guys who weredoing it, and then one of the
women whose three orfour-year-old daughter had been
attacked she came at them with ascythe.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
And she was ready to kill.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
She was ready.
And at that point then, the menof the colony took the
perpetrators into the city toprotect them, not to protect the
women.
And you know what, whether ornot that is box, is it the box
article?
Was that what it is?
Hang on just a second.
(09:48):
We should, we should put a link.
We should definitely.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Yeah in, I'm pretty sure, I'm pretty sure that
happened for real.
Um.
Whether all the men in thecommunity went um, I'm not sure,
but because in the in the storyall the men went.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Right and you know, one of the things that have been
observed about is howunrealistic the film is and the
book is, and I think that isabsolutely right and that's the
point.
It's saying what if there werea different outcome?
So in the film, at that pointwhen all the men go to post bail
(10:29):
or see after the perpetratorsprotect them, be there for them,
show up for them, the women areleft back at the colony and
they decide we've got to dosomething.
We either have to leave, wehave to stay.
A small group did vote to donothing, but most of them are
(10:51):
saying we have to do somethingand then most of the film is
taken up with their discussionand through that discussion we
see things that have happened inthe past, we see the incredible
pain and we see the layers of adysfunctional community and the
ending, I mean it leaves itselfwide open for a follow-up film.
(11:17):
But I don't even know what thatwould look like.
And if somebody wants to makeit, I think that would be
awesome, but I think it wouldlook like the anti-Handmaid's
Tale.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
I just thought it was kind of really interesting the
way the film started.
Early on the women of thecolony decided they had three
options either to stay, stay andfight or leave.
And because they couldn't write, there were pictures drawn.
There was an artist in themidst and she drew pictures
(11:50):
representing stay, fight orleave.
And the voice said in thiscolony women had little
schooling or education, but onthat day we learned how to vote.
And it shows every single womangoing through and voting, and I
just thought it was so.
I thought it was fascinatingfrom the sense of and I think
(12:14):
this is probably human naturebut women, even without an
education, can figure shit out.
You take resources away frompeople and it's harder and it's
more difficult, but they canfigure it out.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And when you say that, I thinkone of the reasons or I suspect
one of the reasons we couldidentify with what we were
seeing on the screen so much,was that you and I have an aunt
and an uncle who married intoRussian Mennonite Russian
Mennonite family.
(12:50):
Now that Russian Mennonitefamily had already joined the
Beachy Amish church by the timethat they met up.
But they had that backgroundand one of the matriarchs in the
film, agatha, was reminded meso much of their mother, their,
yeah, the matriarch of theirfamily and it was I think that
(13:14):
was also part of the resonancewas that, even though we have
not had a ton of experience ofexposure to that kind of strain
of Mennonites, we've had enoughand as I'm speaking now I'm
thinking of another friend Ihave who comes from that
background of exposure thatwe've had enough that it's
(13:39):
familiar, I mean, and I alsothought of Haldeman, like
similarities to like the wayHaldeman went, mennonite women
dress so and all this is like toan outsider looks so much like
the way we grew up Right Welland wore cape dresses.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
It started out so so.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Black veils, black veils.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Yeah, and so when they did the vote, there was a
tie.
So the community appointedthree families so the females
from three families to sit inthe barn and figure this out.
And some of the pushback I'veheard against the film is this
idea of yeah, right, like womenare going to have time to sit
(14:36):
around and talk like this.
The other women from the colonyappointed them to do this, and
the other women from the colonywere doing their work so that
they could do this.
They covered for them.
They covered for them, theymade space for that.
And you know what we women do,that we decide what's important
(14:57):
and we absolutely pick up extrawork so that other people can do
what needs to be done.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
And I think it also it speaks to another resource
that's possible, that we haveaccess to, that we too often
don't consider.
Oh, I know, that's what I wasgoing to say.
My our grandmother was alwaysso impressed with her in-laws
who had Russian Mennonitebackground because this is so
(15:26):
schmatt is what she would alwayssay and they were incredibly
resourceful, incrediblyresourceful, and I think we saw
that here in the film too.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
In Paraguay, the Russian Mennonites tended to do
better financially than theAnabaptist.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Well, they're Anabaptists too yeah that's
right.
So the more like the SwissMennonite.
Yeah, correct, and we should.
Just just for anyone who's notclear about this, the Russian
Mennonites and the kind of SwissAmish Mennonites all fit under
the Anabaptist larger Anabaptistumbrella.
(16:06):
But the Russian Mennonites allfit under the Anabaptist larger
Anabaptist umbrella.
But the Russian Mennonites camethrough well, did a stint in
Russia before eventuallyimmigrating to Canada and Mexico
, central South America and somenow inS too, and they often go
by what Old Colony, mennonite,kleine Gemeine, and I'm sure
(16:28):
there are other terms too.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
And their Dutch would be different from our Dutch.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
It's a low German, and I think it's also influenced
by a number of other Europeanlanguages, right right, and they
mention them in the book.
I think it was like Polish andFinnish, I forget Not Finnish,
flemish, anyway, I don'tremember, but it was a mixture
for sure, and just enough to beagain.
(16:57):
A little bit of similarity andyet different.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
Right, but yeah, I thought it was so beautiful the
way it started out there in thebarn.
So August was the schoolteacher whose family had been
expelled or just excommunicatedfrom the colony, and at one
point someone asked him why theywere excommunicated.
And the little girl asked didyour mom question God?
(17:23):
And August just replied shedidn't question God, she
questioned power.
But they had left the colonyand August went to the
university and got an educationand he was the only one left in
the community who knew how towrite.
So they asked him to stay andtake notes because they knew
(17:45):
that this meeting would besignificant, yeah, yeah, and a
defining place in time and Ieven thought that was really
neat.
It's giving space for women tounderstand the importance of
their work and the decisionsthey make.
But they started it off withfoot washing and I thought go
(18:09):
ahead.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Which is a tradition we grew up with.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Right, it's a tradition we grew up with.
Right, it's a tradition we grewup with.
And it was funny because Ihaven't done it in years, yeah,
and I don't know that Inecessarily would have said I
miss it, but yet, knowing thetradition, I just thought it was
such a great representation oftheir faith and their commitment
(18:35):
the best parts of it, yeah, andtheir commitment to doing
whatever they do from a sense ofcommunity and what's good for
us all.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Yeah, yeah, right.
And again, like in the book andit certainly comes out in the
movie too there's plenty ofconflict, there's lots of
conflict, there are lots of bigfeelings, but the foot washing
ritual is all about service toone another and care for one
another and honoring one another.
(19:05):
And on the face of it, itseemed, like you know, my
initial impulse was like wait,why are you wasting time with
this?
Like you know, my initialimpulse was like wait, why are
you wasting time with this?
But actually I can see how, youknow, taking time for a ritual
like that kind of reminds themwhat's really important and
where and what it's all about.
Yeah, and we should say, too,this is going to be full of
(19:33):
spoilers.
Yeah, that should have beenmaybe set up right, shouldn't it
?
I mean not that there's a lotto spoil, but I think it's the
kind of film that's notspoilable, should we say?
I mean like, the point is notwhat happens, the point is how
they got there.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
And we probably won't make our audience cry today.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Watch the film read the book, you'll cry probably
won't make our audience crytoday.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
Watch the film read the book, you'll cry.
That's right.
That's right.
I thought it was so interestingwhen the conversation finally
started.
There was this strong sensethat forgiveness was important,
but forgiveness somehow meantstaying, somehow meant staying
(20:16):
which was then linked to thekingdom of heaven, and I had to
think about how that is so manyof us so often this notion of
forgiveness means not makingchanges.
You leave it as it is, youdon't challenge the status quo,
and somehow that is your ticketto the kingdom of heaven.
And isn't that how religiousinstitutions hold power?
(20:39):
Over and over and over again?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
It's like they're waiting for the same playbook.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Yeah, yeah.
And at one point and I don'tremember who said this, but
someone said surely there mustbe something worth living for in
this life as well as the next.
We've been treated like animalsand, to be very clear, in the
book and the movie, both thiswas based on the notion that,
(21:07):
while there may have been a fewof the main men who were the
players or were the rapists, allthe men were involved in it,
all the men knew about it, allthe men were complicit.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
They were all complicit.
Yes, right.
And the drug they were using?
It was a drug that was used toanesthetize cows and horses.
Yeah, to anesthetize cows andhorses.
Yeah, yes.
And throughout the film we keephearing about Peters, the
minister, the bishop, the head,honcho, and Peters seemed to run
(21:46):
the place with an iron fist andhe, oh, and in the book.
They didn't mention this in themovie, but in the book it turns
out that that drug had beenstored in his barn.
That's right.
Yeah, I tell you talk aboutcomplicity.
And the women themselvesconfess their complicity, right,
(22:09):
is, she's throughout the she's.
She's the angriest characterthere in the loft, she's the
kind of the contrarian and youcan tell that there's, she's
just underneath, she's justseething and then at one point
her mother says apologizes toher.
Wasn't that beautiful, oh mygod.
And she said I'm, let me see ifI can find my notes here, cause
(22:33):
I wrote.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
I wrote that kids, he was horrible and the mom
apologized for telling her toforgive and for not protecting
(22:58):
her.
And then she said what you wereasked to endure was a misuse of
forgiveness.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
And sorry if that's not what you were looking for?
Speaker 1 (23:06):
No that is exactly.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Thank you, Thank you.
And what I thought was sowonderful about that was how the
mother took accountability.
She said I told you to go backto him again and again.
And we know, we know that story.
We've all known or been peoplein those situations who have
(23:28):
been hurt and have been told togo back again and again.
That's the only solution.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
Yeah, told to go back again and again.
That's the only solution.
Yeah, well, it was interestingbecause earlier on they were
discussing who was guilty, likewas it just the men who'd been
captured?
Were all the men who werecaptured actually guilty?
And at some point the commentwas made.
The comment was made the menhave all been excellent students
(23:53):
and, following this apology, Ibelieve it was Marike who said
you know, it's not only the menand boys who've been excellent
students.
Boy, isn't that true?
And I just sat there and I'mlike dang it all.
It's so true because none ofthese systems would survive if
(24:19):
the oppressed wasn't also a goodstudent.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
That's right, and so many of us have been in
situations where we had to goalong with it for survival.
The problem is that when wejust stay stuck there and we
don't access the power we dohave, which in this case, the
power was in community- and youknow it's tricky.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
It's tricky to know when you have the power, or it's
tricky to know when it's timeRight.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
So tricky.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
And I think we need to be really careful to never
push or judge someone whodoesn't feel like the time is
right for them.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Right, absolutely, absolutely, because the person
who is experiencing thatsituation is going to have their
finger on the pulse of what'sgoing on in a way that those of
us who are on the outside do not, and only they are going to
know when the right time isright.
Right, yeah, you know somethingyou said a little bit ago about
(25:22):
how forgiveness is interpretedas maintaining the status quo,
the victim not demanding justice.
And that was one of the big,that was one of the biggest
hurdles, mental hurdles forthese women to overcome, because
(25:42):
again and again, calling outthe injustice is characterized
as betraying one's faith, andthat goes without saying.
Again and again and not just inour backgrounds, but I mean
think about scandals in anyother religious setting the idea
is that if you call out theperpetrators and the
(26:05):
perpetrators happen to be withinthat religious community, it's
seen as a betrayal of thecommunity.
Not that the community hasbetrayed their own, their
members and the most vulnerablein their members.
What I found so powerful in thefilm was seeing the women
(26:26):
embrace their faith as aresource for making some massive
changes, source for making somemassive changes, and it was in
seeing that, maintaining thestatus quo, they were actually
betraying their faith.
There's a one line and I thinkit's so interesting.
(26:46):
You and I took notes of so manyof the same things, but Ona is a
essential character in the filmand Ona is a single woman who
has chosen to remain single.
August, the schoolteacher notetaker, has asked her to marry
him many times and she says youknow, if I got married I would
become a different person, notthe person you love.
(27:08):
And she is just beautiful.
She just glows when she smiles.
And she was also attacked andin fact she is pregnant as a
result.
But she is also kind of thephilosopher of the group and
it's clear she has done a lot ofthinking.
When she was younger she hadbeen influenced by August's
(27:29):
mother and that's pretty obvious.
It's pretty clear that that hasstayed with her.
But at some point they talkabout how is forced forgiveness
genuine forgiveness?
Speaker 3 (27:45):
And I think the phrase was is forgiveness that
is forced upon us, trueforgiveness?
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Right, right, yes, thank you.
And I just had to think how isrequiring forgiveness of the
person with less power kind ofbullying them into forgiving
anything, but a way to maintainthe status quo and to turn a
blind eye to harm done?
And one of the women say laterin the film forgiveness becomes
(28:13):
permission.
Yeah, it does.
And how often have we seen thatthat forgiveness means the
person with less power is forcedto suck it up and the
perpetrator is effectively givenpermission to continue.
And Ona makes the beautifulpoint.
(28:34):
What if, leaving, she says.
Or Ona says we cannot forgivebecause we are forced to.
But with some distance perhapsI'm able to understand how these
crimes may have occurred andwith that distance maybe I'm
able to pity these men, perhapsforgive them and even love them.
(28:55):
And Greta, one of the othermatriarchs, says leaving will
give us the more far-seeingperspective we need to forgive.
And I just think how oftenvictims in these situations are
pushed into the spiritual,bypassing form of forgiveness,
where it's like just shut up,comply, and in the process
(29:18):
there's nothing transformative.
All it does is reinforce thepower of the institution.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
At some point and I think it was somewhere in that
conversation the point was madeperhaps it's not the men, but
it's their way of seeing theworld, and I thought that was
such a humanizing statement.
Yes, but also holy shit.
(29:45):
Yeah, it's so true.
Yes, yes, and the power we keep, the power we continue to give
these religious institutions andthe men running them, has got
to be challenged and it needs tostop.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Absolutely about this ?
Was that restoration true,healthy, genuine restoration
requires that the victim isempowered, so that forgiveness
is one option of many.
How many times have we heardforgiveness or hell as the
(30:30):
option?
That's not a choice, that's nota choice, and if our only
options are forgiveness or helland maybe it's not stated quite,
but it's pretty, eventually itwill come down to that.
And how is that anything but arecipe for resentment and
(30:50):
permission and an endorsement ofabuse?
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Right, I thought it was so interesting.
As they were talking about youknow whether to stay, whether to
leave they all of a suddenrealized they needed to talk
about you know.
What is our goal here, what'sour mission?
Yes, and it was like all of asudden they realized they didn't
(31:15):
know who they were.
The quote was when we liberateourselves, we will need to ask
ourselves who are we?
Yeah, and I think for anyonewho has left anything, that is
so true, whether you leave achurch system, whether you leave
a culture, whether you leaveyour home, when you leave
(31:39):
something that is so deeplyembedded into who you are.
That's why deconstruction is sopainful Absolutely Because, all
of a sudden, you have no ideawho you are.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Right, and I'm just going to say again, because so
often deconstruction ismisrepresented by detractors.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
By the same people who want us to so easily forgive
.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Exactly, exactly.
And they equate deconstructionwith destruction.
Deconstruction is notdestruction.
We are deconstructing thismovie right now.
Deconstruction means we arecarefully reflecting, we are
looking piece by piece at abelief system or a text or
(32:24):
whatever it is, and we're sayingwhat is going on here, what are
the messages behind thesedifferent elements, what's the
relationship between thesedifferent elements?
And really gaining a deeperunderstanding rather than just
kind of the surface level, asense of what it is that we
believe.
And I love that, because Ithink that's where a lot of
(32:48):
attempts to change the statusquo get gummed up is when
there's not a clear sense ofwhat are we aiming for, and
that's really hard to do.
That is so much harder to dothan just, I mean, resisting the
status quo is hard, that'sanother order of magnitude.
But I think that that's wherewe get the power of freedom too.
(33:14):
Like they were recognizing, notonly do we have the option of
leaving or option of fightingthat you know the option of
pushing back against theoppression, but we also have the
freedom to, and aresponsibility to say what do we
want to create, you know?
And so then they came up withtheir well not statement of
faith, their manifesto theircore beliefs.
(33:37):
And here's the thing it wasn'tabout a break from their beliefs
in God and pacifism and thoseservice and community, those
things that are reallydistinctive about the Anabaptist
tradition, but it's aboutembracing them, and embracing
(33:59):
them in a way that also embracesjustice and compassion.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
So they quoted the verse as a group, actually in
Philippians, about you know,whatever things are true,
whatever things are honest,whatever things are lovely,
think on these things.
And one of the matriarchs Idon't remember which one said
this I think it was Agatha.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
I think so yeah, Ona's mother.
Speaker 3 (34:24):
I have done the verse of Philippians.
But by staying we betray thecentral tenet of our faith.
We must go.
If we stay we will turn ourhome into a battlefield.
What is good is also freedom.
Freedom is better than slavery.
What is good is forgiveness.
Forgiveness is better thanrevenge.
(34:44):
And that's when they talkedabout.
Perhaps with distance I am ableto pity these men and perhaps
forgive.
But then they moved on to sayand they kind of did it as a
group always moving, neverfighting, always moving, never
fighting, always moving, neverfighting which, again, I just
thought was so insightful.
(35:06):
Insightful, but it's like apicture, picture of so many
women who have fought for change.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
What, for you, is in the word moving?
In that line, I'm just curiouswhat does moving mean to you?
Because, I'll be honest, thatline I was not quite sure what
to make it.
So many of these lines like micdrop after mic drop, and just
as you're saying that, I thinkI'm seeing a new meaning in that
.
But what does it mean to you?
Speaker 3 (35:37):
So earlier on they were talking about a few people
who'd committed suicide, a fewwomen who'd committed suicide,
and they were specificallydiscussing one, and the question
was why did our feet keepmoving?
Others couldn't, and sometimesI think movement is just getting
(36:01):
out of bed, and it's dependingwhat you value.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Right Taking action.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
Right, it's doing the next right thing.
And oftentimes I think thismovement is something many
people don't see, and it'susually not the loud, flashy
things that we value, in quoteleadership, but that daily
movement, that daily.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
It speaks to a vitality.
I mean growth is all.
You can't grow without moving,right, right, kind of that
continual evolution and change.
Yeah, yeah, wow, that's somoving.
Okay, thank you, wow, wow.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
And I also think the fascinating thing here is, we
like to hold men up as theprotectors and the one who'll
take a bullet for their wivesand family, which I think is
bullcrap.
I mean, when has a man lastbeen asked to take a bullet for
his?
Speaker 2 (37:06):
family when has one yes, exactly.
Or even asked to, but even ifMuch less.
Yeah, or I even asked to, butbut even if this conversation
wasn't about them.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
it was about their daughters.
Yeah, it was about their babies.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Yeah, their children.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
It was about protecting, and I'm telling you,
we set men up as the protectors.
It is not the men who do theprotecting.
In my life, rarely have I seenmen do honest protecting.
It's the women who, time andtime again, are the ones who
show up, and the women are theones who say yeah, no, not on my
(37:41):
watch.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Right.
What maybe even some would callprotecting, in reality looks a
whole lot more like abuse.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
It's power.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, it's it's.
Power and protection are notthe same things, people.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Absolutely.
How many times have you been ina situation often say it
involves children or dependentsand a man comes in and sees that
your hands are full?
I've yet to see a man who andsees that your hands are full.
I've yet to see a man who, orthere let's put no.
Let me rephrase that there arevery, very few men who will walk
into that situation and starthelping dish up the food or
(38:22):
start helping with the nighttimeroutine.
No, they'll start yelling atthe kids, they will start
barking out orders.
That is their idea of helping,and it's not.
All it does is escalate.
All it does is make thesituation worse, and that's
their idea of protection andleadership is making the
situation worse.
(38:43):
And guys, I know there are ahandful of you out there who are
the exceptions, but just beware, even if you don't want to be
that kind of person, this isprobably the kind of masculinity
that has been modeled for youand you're going to, just like
we have to unlearn being part ofthis system.
(39:03):
So are men, and one of thethings that I really liked was
so they were trying to decideabout the boys between the ages
of 15 and 12.
Should they come with?
The women, as you know, becounted as children, or should
they be left behind with the men?
And at this point the women askAugust for his input and you
(39:25):
know he's a schoolteacher, so hehas spent a lot of time with
these boys and he says, yes,they are a danger, a potential
danger, to the younger ones, butthen he also points out their
vulnerability to the ones whoare older than them and
basically reminds them if theyleave them behind, then they're
going to be, they will be thelikely victims because they're
(39:49):
going to be at the bottom of thepecking order.
They will be the likely victimsbecause they're going to be at
the bottom of the pecking order,and so the decision is made to
take those young men with themso that they can learn a better
way.
And I just I put this plea outthere for anyone who doesn't
want to be any man who doesn'twant to be described this way,
(40:10):
any man who doesn't want to bepart of the status quo.
Please realize it's going totake conscious effort on your
part, just as much as it takesconscious effort on us women,
Because there might only be ahandful of perpetrators of the
actual violence, but it's thecomplicity of everyone else
around them that allows thesystem, allows the abuse to
(40:31):
continue.
So you have a role.
If you're not part of thesolution, you're going to be
part of the problem.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Absolutely, absolutely.
In the end, they said we areleaving because we cannot stay,
and then this, I believe, endedup being their mission statement
we want our children to be safe.
We want to be steadfast in ourfaith.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
We want to think.
And Marike the one married toan abusive man?
She says this with her arm in asling and her eye swollen one
eye, yeah, swollen shut.
And she has been speaking outof a place of despair and anger
and resentment and all thesethings completely legitimate,
(41:15):
but that next morning, when it'stime to go, she has this whole
new sense of resolve.
She sees the hope in going.
And they don't know wherethey're going.
They have a map, they have asense of what they want to avoid
.
They don't want the othercommunities to find out about
this so that the men you knowwho might, they might alert the
(41:36):
men and they'll come after them.
They don't know where they'regoing.
And I just thought is that notthe case with refugees
everywhere?
You know it's.
I don't know where I'm going,but I can't stay here.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
When home is the no hang on, when home is more
dangerous than the mouth of adragon.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
Yeah Is that the line , that's the concept, that.
I'm thinking of Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (41:59):
Absolutely.
No one leaves home unless homeis the mouth of a dragon.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
Absolutely, absolutely, okay, absolutely
Absolutely.
We judge people.
We judge people so harshly,from immigrants to runaways, to
everyone gets judged for leaving.
I am convinced people do notleave unless home is the mouth
of a dragon.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
different reasons and every situation is different,
but absolutely, absolutely.
The pain, the difficulty, theuncertainty, all of that makes
the barrier to leaving so highthat you've got to, there's got
(42:47):
to be desperation behind it.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
I had to wonder back to Marieke.
I had to wonder whether shewould have been able to reach
this point if the apologieshadn't been made, if she hadn't
been heard If she hadn't beenseen, if they wouldn't have said
yes, you're right.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
We've let you down, yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
It seems like I think the whole film did such an
incredible job of seeing everysingle person in that damn barn
Like to me that was one of themagical parts of it.
There wasn't necessarily a star, they were really a group who
(43:33):
took this position seriously.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
There was no hero.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
There was no hero.
Yeah, they were all heroes.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Because nobody could have done this without the
others, the other.
It took them all workingtogether.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
Yeah.
Yeah working together.
Yeah, yeah, and I thought itwas so beautiful how August's
mother, who was excommunicated,was even honored.
It all came back and August inthat was honored as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And for all the criticism Ihave heard about the book and
(44:10):
the film, I don't see this assomeone trying to tell the
Bolivian story or as it shouldbe.
It's telling everybody's story.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Yes, right, and in the film it never says where
they are, it never says who theyare, it doesn't, it does not
even go into any of that.
Yes, that the universality ofit I think, is so important,
because how many of us have beenin a work situation, a family
situation or a church situation?
Of a religious situation, Ishould say, not just church, but
(44:46):
religious setting, where thesedynamics have been at play, but
religious setting where thesedynamics have been at play and
where we have to break out ofour hyper independence and we
have to join hands with otherswho are also experiencing this
oppression, and it's only byworking together that we can
(45:07):
recreate something better.
Speaker 3 (45:10):
And guess what?
They didn't need someone fromthe outside coming in to be.
Guess what?
They didn't need someone fromthe outside coming in to be the
hero.
They didn't need to be rescued,they didn't need someone to
tell them what to do, and Ithink that's part of the beauty
of it.
They were their own damn heroes, right, right, and I think we
all can be that for ourselves.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
We can take inspiration from them.
Yeah, I mean, they have shownus how to do that
self-examination and how to acton it.
The film does not for a secondturn away from the grief.
Exactly, I just boohooed atthat scene when they are finally
(45:52):
leaving.
But there were a handful ofpeople who stayed behind, who
didn't want to leave.
And there was one mother playedby Frances McDormand, and folks
might know her from Fargo andlots of other films.
She's just wonderful as anactor, but they refer to her as
(46:12):
Scarface.
It's clear she has survivedsome significant abuse and her
daughter, it's evident herdaughter has as well.
She has two daughters and atthe very end of the film, as the
caravan is heading out, themother is standing there with
her two daughters.
As the caravan is heading out,the mother is standing there
with her two daughters.
And then the mother goes backin the house and the two girls
(46:35):
run and jump in one of thebuggies and join the caravan.
And it's such a bittersweetmoment where you're cheering for
the girls but your heart isripped out for the sacrifices
that everybody is making thereFor the mother who lost her two
daughters, for the daughters wholost their mother in that
(46:57):
moment and I had to wonder didFrances McDormand's character,
the mother in that situation?
Did she intentionally go back inthe house instead of standing
there with her girls?
Did she understand that,implicitly, she was standing
back so they could leave, eventhough it was clear that that
was not her position?
(47:18):
She had very little to say,just lots of disapproval on her
face all the way through.
I want to sacrifice, and evenshe has.
It's a redeeming moment for her, even though, for whatever
reason, she's decided to staybehind and who knows, who knows
what her story is.
I just, yeah, I can't think ofthat moment without becoming
(47:44):
emotional, because of how muchlove and pain was present in the
same moment and pain waspresent in the same moment.
Speaker 3 (47:50):
And you know, I think that this whole thing is it's
not about staying or going, it'sabout the unimaginable grief.
It's about the unimaginablegrief that is involved in making
that decision, the griefinvolved in all of them.
I mean stay or go.
It's a horrible, horrible spotto be in and I think it's a
(48:14):
story for every person who hashad to decide to leave or to
stay.
I mean, either way.
Either way, there is so muchpain and there is so much grief
and there's so much loss.
And this is not abouttrivializing any of it.
It's to go back to your pointthat there's pain either loss,
and this is not abouttrivializing any of it.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
It's to go back to your point that there's pain
either way and all we can do ischoose what hurts versus what
hurts worse, and we don't alwaysknow what that's going to be.
Sometimes you just have to jumpbecause the mouth of the dragon
is right there.
Speaker 3 (48:57):
Yeah, I think sometimes we do this whole
notion of staying or going andwe try to make it a right or a
wrong thing.
We do it to ourselves, we do itto other people.
I recently not recently, thisisn't really recent, but anyway
I have friends whose marriageendured infidelity and addiction
.
He made changes, she stayed,and now they're kind of the
spokes people for the God HealsMarriages crowd.
(49:17):
I have another friend who leftand this friend is absolutely
creating a beautiful life.
But this friend is almost thestar of Leave and Pursue your
Dreams.
What if it's not that simple?
What if the magic isn't instaying or leaving, but it's in
the choice?
What if it's in having a voiceand the power to make that
(49:43):
choice?
Speaker 2 (49:45):
Why is it so?
Speaker 3 (49:45):
difficult for us to simply support and empower women
, no matter the choice.
Speaker 2 (49:53):
And respect their sense of knowing.
Yeah, respect that they areweighing the pros and cons and
making a complicated calculationand arriving at a particular
place with good reason.
I can't tell you how many timesI have observed someone or
something and thought, oh,they've got to do this
(50:16):
differently, they've got to dothis, they got to do that right.
How can they not?
And yet, when I actually learnmore about the situation, or,
down the road, when I have abetter perspective on it, I go,
oh okay, that makes so muchsense.
And what's the saying?
Don't judge someone's choicesuntil you know what their
(50:37):
options are.
Yeah, and I just think, whetherwe're talking relationships or
whatever the situation is, thefurther you are from it, the
more simple the answer appearsto be.
And, again and again, are fromit, the more simple the answer
appears to be.
And, again and again, thecloser you get to it, the more
(50:58):
complicated it is, the more allthe options are crappy and you
just have to choose between whathurts and what hurts worse.
Speaker 3 (51:02):
We like to brag about people who make good choices.
Sometimes, people just simplyhave good options.
Yeah, and that makes adifference.
Speaker 2 (51:10):
It makes a huge difference when you have all
good options.
Yeah, and that makes adifference.
It makes a huge difference whenyou have all good options
versus all bad options.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (51:19):
I also think that this is about the magic that
happens when women talk.
When you get groups of womentogether, it can produce change,
and community-wide change,right.
That typically doesn't occurwhen it's men talking.
I mean, let's even consider whoheaded up the scholarship for
(51:41):
the Amish Educational Fund it'swomen.
We have so many male doctorswho have left the Amish
Mennonite community.
Are they setting upscholarships?
Speaker 2 (51:53):
No, and they're at a retirement age.
They are at an age when theycould.
And who is it?
No, it's women, One of whom isat least one of whom is a mother
of young children.
Speaker 3 (52:06):
I mean she, yeah, and I think there is so much power
when women start talking, whenwomen start arguing, when women
start debating.
Women know how to protect andthey know how to survive and
they know how to get shit done,and women will do the impossible
if only to protect their kids.
Speaker 2 (52:28):
That's so true.
It's like the film is a giant.
What if?
Right to protect their kids?
That's so true.
It's like the film is a giant.
What if?
What if women were given thespace to think?
What if women took advantage ofwhatever meager resources we
have available to us to createthat space where women can think
(52:48):
and make decisions that aregoing to, where women can think
and make decisions that aregoing to improve the lives of
everyone in the group?
What if women dared imaginesomething different?
What if?
And to me, the aesthetic of thefilm.
It's not exactly black andwhite, but awfully close.
I'm not sure what the technicalterm for it is, but it kind of
(53:20):
has this dreamy, otherworldlyquality to it.
It might even feel a little bitstylized and stiff, but even so
, what they're doing isdifferent for them too, right?
Exactly, they are charting anew course, so there's a
learning curve for them.
They are expressing thoughtsthey've probably never really
had an opportunity to expressand to challenge each other and
(53:43):
arrive at resolution todetermine what it is they do
want out of life, like.
All these things are new andit's all as an active female or
feminist imagination.
It's saying what if?
What if we did this more often,and not just in an obscure
religious community in SouthAmerica, but also those of us in
(54:06):
privileged North America Right.
Speaker 3 (54:09):
What if the question was asked who benefits from the
film and the book?
And I think the answer is weall can benefit.
So the question was asked likewho benefits?
Who benefits from the film, whobenefits from the book?
And I think the answer is weall can benefit.
This isn't some kind ofglamorization of someone's
(54:31):
trauma, but it's a really realand a very raw depiction of what
abuse and violent behavior doesto survivors.
It validates the pain, itvalidates the conflict and, I
think, even more importantly,the growth that happens when
women band together and decidethey've had enough.
And I just think it is such abeautiful work of art and of
(54:58):
imagination and it's changed theway I even think about things.
It doesn't change the way Ithink about Olivia necessarily,
I mean maybe indirectly.
Speaker 2 (55:15):
Necessarily, I mean maybe indirectly, but it changes
the way I think about my powerand even my responsibility.
I don't know that there'sanything left to say after that.
That's such a beautiful way tosum up what we just saw.
Speaker 3 (55:25):
Yeah grab a box of tissues, go watch the movie.
Shoes, go watch the movie.
I think reading the book isquite important.
Speaker 2 (55:34):
I agree.
I agree Because you get somedetails you don't get in the
movie.
And I tell you for me, Iwatched the movie before.
It was very moving.
I mean, it has stuck with meever since.
But then listening to the audiobook Sunday afternoon and then
watching the movie that evening,oh my goodness, oh my goodness.
Like I said, my eyes were stillpuffy the next day.
Speaker 3 (55:56):
Yeah, yeah, it was but?
Speaker 2 (55:58):
but it was not.
I don't want to scare anybodyoff right like the.
I think what was so moving wasnot just the pain that we saw in
their faces and that we couldidentify with, but it's also the
power.
It's also what they were doing.
I had so much admiration.
Oh Ona, oh my gosh, I know, itwas good.
(56:25):
They were good tears.
Yeah, they were good tears.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely so.
I, yeah, grab the Kleenex, graban extra box and then settle in
.
Speaker 3 (56:38):
Yeah, and I think it would be fair to say too, I was
concerned about triggers beforeI watched it and I think that
was part of my hesitation aswell, and I think they had a
good therapist involved, like,are there moments where it's
triggering and difficult?
(56:59):
It was very tastefully done.
Speaker 2 (57:03):
There was no gratuitous violence.
There was.
We only saw the effects.
Speaker 1 (57:09):
After effects the after effects?
Speaker 2 (57:11):
Yeah yeah, we only saw the effects.
The after effects, yeah yeah,and of the violence, of the
attacks.
We didn't see them actuallyhappening.
The drama comes in therelationships between the women.
Yeah, the drama comes in thechoices the women are making.
The drama doesn't come from theviolence that's done to the
women.
Speaker 3 (57:30):
Which again takes back the power.
Speaker 1 (57:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (57:34):
Makes women, the center.
Speaker 3 (57:36):
It doesn't give power to the violence.
Speaker 2 (57:41):
The perpetrators are never we never even see the
faces of the perpetrators, right?
We never see or the men, ormost of the men anyway, right,
yeah, yeah, it doesn't.
Or the men, or most of the menanyway, right?
Speaker 3 (57:51):
Yeah, it doesn't.
It acknowledges the violenceand it acknowledges the abuse,
but it doesn't give power to it,right?
Speaker 2 (58:00):
It takes the power back.
Yeah Well, and if anybody haswatched the film and has
thoughts, you know, you can justclick the link in our show
notes and send us a text and letus know what you thought about
it.
We'd love to love to hear fromyou.
And maybe it doesn't hit witheverybody the way it did with us
(58:21):
, and that's okay too.
We all bring our unique set ofexperiences to media and to
films like this one.
But if there's something you'dlike to share about your
thoughts about the book or thefilm, we'd love to hear.
And so, until we find the nextcrack in our lives, we can steal
(58:43):
a moment to record, to sit downto record.
We wish you all the best andthank you for listening.
Speaker 1 (58:51):
Catch you next time.
Thank you for spending timewith us today.
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 2 (59:13):
What are your thoughts about college and
recovery from high demandreligion?
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences and we
want to talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atuncoveredlifebeyond.
At gmailcom.
That's uncoveredlifebeyond.
At gmailcom gmailcom.
That's uncoveredlifebeyond atgmailcom.
Speaker 1 (59:32):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode.
Speaker 2 (59:46):
Until next time, stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward.
This is.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Rebecca, and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path Along the
way, we've uncovered a fewinsights we want to share with
fellow travelers.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
So whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up.
We are here to cheer you on andassure you that the best is yet
to come.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Welcome to Uncovered.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Life Beyond.
Hello everyone, welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.
This is Naomi and this isRebecca.
So just to give everybody apeek behind the curtains here,
(01:16):
we are up early in the morningand so our voices might still be
a little bit creaky Probablyare creaky actually, might still
be a little bit creaky torecord this Probably are creaky
actually.
But, as we've said before, wehave to fit this podcast in
where we can in the cracks oflife, and so this is where we
(01:38):
were able to fit it in.
But today we're going to betalking about the film Women
Talking.
It's available on Amazon Prime,and this is something that has
been on our list for a long timeand as as a topic, and then
recently it came up in a in aFacebook thread and that kind of
(01:59):
brought it back to the top ofour list and we decided let's
just do it.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
You know I'm so glad we decided to do it.
I had read the book probablythree years ago and it
absolutely broke me in ways Iwasn't really expecting, and so
I was really hesitant to watchthe movie because I was afraid
it wouldn't do justice to thebook.
And I was surprised the moviewas very on point.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Right and I was under the impression that there was a
big difference between the bookand the movie, but I didn't see
that at all.
I mean, there were a fewdetails that were different, but
certainly different from theactual situation that it was
based on, which is going to besomething where we're going to
(02:51):
talk about.
Yes, to your point.
I listened to the audio bookfor the first time on Sunday
afternoon and then that eveningI watched the film, and it was
the second watch and, man, Idon't know when I have shed so
many tears.
The next morning my eyes werestill weirdly familiar, Like
there's so many points of itthat are weirdly familiar but
(03:30):
we're probably, I'm probablygetting ahead of ourselves here.
Well, yes, and I just want tosay to that point, you know, I
remember having a similarexperience, seeing FLDS women,
fundamentalist Latter-day Saintswomen, and realizing how much
they look like my mom and auntsand relatives.
(03:54):
And there is, you know, I knowrepresentation is a thing, right
, it's an important thing, is animportant thing, and in moments
when I see my, I realize howrare it is to see our background
in media and it just it hitsdifferent.
(04:15):
I don't know how else to say it, other than it hits different
when you can see yourself inwhat you're consuming.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
And in some ways I give mad respect to whoever did
the work, in costuming and evenin behavior and songs they sang.
This wasn't some silly bonnetripper.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Comedy oh my goodness , comedy.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
oh this, this was, this was a work of respectfully,
yeah, telling everyone's storyyeah, and it did not shy away
from the pain, right right, itdidn't gloss over it, um, and I
think that's what it just for me, was so gutting how even his
story was handled with respectand honor.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Even at the sometimes some of the women reminded him
that he should almost not bethere, Understandably but, I,
just thought it was handled sobeautifully.
Anyway, should we give a littlebit of a backdrop?
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
So the film is based on Miriam Tave's book by the
same name and it is the settingis based on an actual situation
that happened in an old colonyMennonite community in Bolivia.
(06:07):
But in the very beginning ofboth the book and the movie it
says this is an act of femaleimagination and I think, if I
could, I would change that tofeminist imagination, because
the idea is it takes this reallytragic situation and it says
(06:27):
what if there were a differentoutcome?
What if?
And what if?
Instead of just asking forfreedom from oppression, women
said, hey, let's make, or womenor in this case it was women but
those who are oppressed saylet's make our own society.
But this the film is, um, likeit could.
(06:51):
It could be a play, because somuch of it is conversation that
happens up in the hayloft of abarn with this group of women
and as they are deciding whatare they going to do.
There have been this, thisseries of what they call ghost
rapes over the years, wherewomen and girls are waking up
(07:13):
realizing they've been druggedand attacked, but then at least
in the film and I can imaginethat this was if this was not
true to life in terms of thatsituation.
It also reminded me of thecrucible um and uh, the salem
(07:35):
witch trials, but the the blamewas put on women.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Right, it must be the devil, it must be it must be
the devil, it must be theirimagination.
There's one line in this storywhere she says Mariel am I
saying it right?
Said they made us disbelieveourselves.
That was worse than you said.
(08:02):
It correctly?
Isn't that I mean, and isn'tthat, like I think, true for
anyone who's experienced traumaof any kind like the action of
them making us disbelieveourselves?
It invalidates our story, itquestions.
Our story ends up being so muchworse than the actual
(08:24):
experience.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Absolutely.
That's where the real betrayalis.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
And in this case, okay, and again, this is the
story as it was presented in thefilm.
I don't know enough about whatactually happened to say this is
exactly what happened, but Ibelieve this is part of the
setup.
The original situation was thatone of the girls eventually
(08:50):
stayed awake and saw someone andthe perpetrator one of the
perpetrators was caught and thenratted out the rest, and so it
was a handful of these guys whowere doing it, and so it was a
handful of these guys who weredoing it, and then one of the
women whose three orfour-year-old daughter had been
attacked she came at them with ascythe.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
And she was ready to kill.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
She was ready.
And at that point then, the menof the colony took the
perpetrators into the city toprotect them, not to protect the
women.
And you know what, whether ornot that is box, is it the box
article?
Was that what it is?
Hang on just a second.
(09:48):
We should, we should put a link.
We should definitely.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Yeah in, I'm pretty sure, I'm pretty sure that
happened for real.
Um.
Whether all the men in thecommunity went um, I'm not sure,
but because in the in the storyall the men went.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Right and you know, one of the things that have been
observed about is howunrealistic the film is and the
book is, and I think that isabsolutely right and that's the
point.
It's saying what if there werea different outcome?
So in the film, at that pointwhen all the men go to post bail
(10:29):
or see after the perpetratorsprotect them, be there for them,
show up for them, the women areleft back at the colony and
they decide we've got to dosomething.
We either have to leave, wehave to stay.
A small group did vote to donothing, but most of them are
(10:51):
saying we have to do somethingand then most of the film is
taken up with their discussionand through that discussion we
see things that have happened inthe past, we see the incredible
pain and we see the layers of adysfunctional community and the
ending, I mean it leaves itselfwide open for a follow-up film.
(11:17):
But I don't even know what thatwould look like.
And if somebody wants to makeit, I think that would be
awesome, but I think it wouldlook like the anti-Handmaid's
Tale.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
I just thought it was kind of really interesting the
way the film started.
Early on the women of thecolony decided they had three
options either to stay, stay andfight or leave.
And because they couldn't write, there were pictures drawn.
There was an artist in themidst and she drew pictures
(11:50):
representing stay, fight orleave.
And the voice said in thiscolony women had little
schooling or education, but onthat day we learned how to vote.
And it shows every single womangoing through and voting, and I
just thought it was so.
I thought it was fascinatingfrom the sense of and I think
(12:14):
this is probably human naturebut women, even without an
education, can figure shit out.
You take resources away frompeople and it's harder and it's
more difficult, but they canfigure it out.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And when you say that, I thinkone of the reasons or I suspect
one of the reasons we couldidentify with what we were
seeing on the screen so much,was that you and I have an aunt
and an uncle who married intoRussian Mennonite Russian
Mennonite family.
(12:50):
Now that Russian Mennonitefamily had already joined the
Beachy Amish church by the timethat they met up.
But they had that backgroundand one of the matriarchs in the
film, agatha, was reminded meso much of their mother, their,
yeah, the matriarch of theirfamily and it was I think that
(13:14):
was also part of the resonancewas that, even though we have
not had a ton of experience ofexposure to that kind of strain
of Mennonites, we've had enoughand as I'm speaking now I'm
thinking of another friend Ihave who comes from that
background of exposure thatwe've had enough that it's
(13:39):
familiar, I mean, and I alsothought of Haldeman, like
similarities to like the wayHaldeman went, mennonite women
dress so and all this is like toan outsider looks so much like
the way we grew up Right Welland wore cape dresses.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
It started out so so.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Black veils, black veils.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Yeah, and so when they did the vote, there was a
tie.
So the community appointedthree families so the females
from three families to sit inthe barn and figure this out.
And some of the pushback I'veheard against the film is this
idea of yeah, right, like womenare going to have time to sit
(14:36):
around and talk like this.
The other women from the colonyappointed them to do this, and
the other women from the colonywere doing their work so that
they could do this.
They covered for them.
They covered for them, theymade space for that.
And you know what we women do,that we decide what's important
(14:57):
and we absolutely pick up extrawork so that other people can do
what needs to be done.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
And I think it also it speaks to another resource
that's possible, that we haveaccess to, that we too often
don't consider.
Oh, I know, that's what I wasgoing to say.
My our grandmother was alwaysso impressed with her in-laws
who had Russian Mennonitebackground because this is so
(15:26):
schmatt is what she would alwayssay and they were incredibly
resourceful, incrediblyresourceful, and I think we saw
that here in the film too.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
In Paraguay, the Russian Mennonites tended to do
better financially than theAnabaptist.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Well, they're Anabaptists too yeah that's
right.
So the more like the SwissMennonite.
Yeah, correct, and we should.
Just just for anyone who's notclear about this, the Russian
Mennonites and the kind of SwissAmish Mennonites all fit under
the Anabaptist larger Anabaptistumbrella.
(16:06):
But the Russian Mennonites allfit under the Anabaptist larger
Anabaptist umbrella.
But the Russian Mennonites camethrough well, did a stint in
Russia before eventuallyimmigrating to Canada and Mexico
, central South America and somenow inS too, and they often go
by what Old Colony, mennonite,kleine Gemeine, and I'm sure
(16:28):
there are other terms too.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
And their Dutch would be different from our Dutch.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
It's a low German, and I think it's also influenced
by a number of other Europeanlanguages, right right, and they
mention them in the book.
I think it was like Polish andFinnish, I forget Not Finnish,
flemish, anyway, I don'tremember, but it was a mixture
for sure, and just enough to beagain.
(16:57):
A little bit of similarity andyet different.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
Right, but yeah, I thought it was so beautiful the
way it started out there in thebarn.
So August was the schoolteacher whose family had been
expelled or just excommunicatedfrom the colony, and at one
point someone asked him why theywere excommunicated.
And the little girl asked didyour mom question God?
(17:23):
And August just replied shedidn't question God, she
questioned power.
But they had left the colonyand August went to the
university and got an educationand he was the only one left in
the community who knew how towrite.
So they asked him to stay andtake notes because they knew
(17:45):
that this meeting would besignificant, yeah, yeah, and a
defining place in time and Ieven thought that was really
neat.
It's giving space for women tounderstand the importance of
their work and the decisionsthey make.
But they started it off withfoot washing and I thought go
(18:09):
ahead.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Which is a tradition we grew up with.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Right, it's a tradition we grew up with.
Right, it's a tradition we grewup with.
And it was funny because Ihaven't done it in years, yeah,
and I don't know that Inecessarily would have said I
miss it, but yet, knowing thetradition, I just thought it was
such a great representation oftheir faith and their commitment
(18:35):
the best parts of it, yeah, andtheir commitment to doing
whatever they do from a sense ofcommunity and what's good for
us all.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Yeah, yeah, right.
And again, like in the book andit certainly comes out in the
movie too there's plenty ofconflict, there's lots of
conflict, there are lots of bigfeelings, but the foot washing
ritual is all about service toone another and care for one
another and honoring one another.
(19:05):
And on the face of it, itseemed, like you know, my
initial impulse was like wait,why are you wasting time with
this?
Like you know, my initialimpulse was like wait, why are
you wasting time with this?
But actually I can see how, youknow, taking time for a ritual
like that kind of reminds themwhat's really important and
where and what it's all about.
Yeah, and we should say, too,this is going to be full of
(19:33):
spoilers.
Yeah, that should have beenmaybe set up right, shouldn't it
?
I mean not that there's a lotto spoil, but I think it's the
kind of film that's notspoilable, should we say?
I mean like, the point is notwhat happens, the point is how
they got there.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
And we probably won't make our audience cry today.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Watch the film read the book, you'll cry probably
won't make our audience crytoday.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
Watch the film read the book, you'll cry.
That's right.
That's right.
I thought it was so interestingwhen the conversation finally
started.
There was this strong sensethat forgiveness was important,
but forgiveness somehow meantstaying, somehow meant staying
(20:16):
which was then linked to thekingdom of heaven, and I had to
think about how that is so manyof us so often this notion of
forgiveness means not makingchanges.
You leave it as it is, youdon't challenge the status quo,
and somehow that is your ticketto the kingdom of heaven.
And isn't that how religiousinstitutions hold power?
(20:39):
Over and over and over again?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
It's like they're waiting for the same playbook.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Yeah, yeah.
And at one point and I don'tremember who said this, but
someone said surely there mustbe something worth living for in
this life as well as the next.
We've been treated like animalsand, to be very clear, in the
book and the movie, both thiswas based on the notion that,
(21:07):
while there may have been a fewof the main men who were the
players or were the rapists, allthe men were involved in it,
all the men knew about it, allthe men were complicit.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
They were all complicit.
Yes, right.
And the drug they were using?
It was a drug that was used toanesthetize cows and horses.
Yeah, to anesthetize cows andhorses.
Yeah, yes.
And throughout the film we keephearing about Peters, the
minister, the bishop, the head,honcho, and Peters seemed to run
(21:46):
the place with an iron fist andhe, oh, and in the book.
They didn't mention this in themovie, but in the book it turns
out that that drug had beenstored in his barn.
That's right.
Yeah, I tell you talk aboutcomplicity.
And the women themselvesconfess their complicity, right,
(22:09):
is, she's throughout the she's.
She's the angriest characterthere in the loft, she's the
kind of the contrarian and youcan tell that there's, she's
just underneath, she's justseething and then at one point
her mother says apologizes toher.
Wasn't that beautiful, oh mygod.
And she said I'm, let me see ifI can find my notes here, cause
(22:33):
I wrote.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
I wrote that kids, he was horrible and the mom
apologized for telling her toforgive and for not protecting
(22:58):
her.
And then she said what you wereasked to endure was a misuse of
forgiveness.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
And sorry if that's not what you were looking for?
Speaker 1 (23:06):
No that is exactly.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Thank you, Thank you.
And what I thought was sowonderful about that was how the
mother took accountability.
She said I told you to go backto him again and again.
And we know, we know that story.
We've all known or been peoplein those situations who have
(23:28):
been hurt and have been told togo back again and again.
That's the only solution.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
Yeah, told to go back again and again.
That's the only solution.
Yeah, well, it was interestingbecause earlier on they were
discussing who was guilty, likewas it just the men who'd been
captured?
Were all the men who werecaptured actually guilty?
And at some point the commentwas made.
The comment was made the menhave all been excellent students
(23:53):
and, following this apology, Ibelieve it was Marike who said
you know, it's not only the menand boys who've been excellent
students.
Boy, isn't that true?
And I just sat there and I'mlike dang it all.
It's so true because none ofthese systems would survive if
(24:19):
the oppressed wasn't also a goodstudent.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
That's right, and so many of us have been in
situations where we had to goalong with it for survival.
The problem is that when wejust stay stuck there and we
don't access the power we dohave, which in this case, the
power was in community- and youknow it's tricky.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
It's tricky to know when you have the power, or it's
tricky to know when it's timeRight.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
So tricky.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
And I think we need to be really careful to never
push or judge someone whodoesn't feel like the time is
right for them.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Right, absolutely, absolutely, because the person
who is experiencing thatsituation is going to have their
finger on the pulse of what'sgoing on in a way that those of
us who are on the outside do not, and only they are going to
know when the right time isright.
Right, yeah, you know somethingyou said a little bit ago about
(25:22):
how forgiveness is interpretedas maintaining the status quo,
the victim not demanding justice.
And that was one of the big,that was one of the biggest
hurdles, mental hurdles forthese women to overcome, because
(25:42):
again and again, calling outthe injustice is characterized
as betraying one's faith, andthat goes without saying.
Again and again and not just inour backgrounds, but I mean
think about scandals in anyother religious setting the idea
is that if you call out theperpetrators and the
(26:05):
perpetrators happen to be withinthat religious community, it's
seen as a betrayal of thecommunity.
Not that the community hasbetrayed their own, their
members and the most vulnerablein their members.
What I found so powerful in thefilm was seeing the women
(26:26):
embrace their faith as aresource for making some massive
changes, source for making somemassive changes, and it was in
seeing that, maintaining thestatus quo, they were actually
betraying their faith.
There's a one line and I thinkit's so interesting.
(26:46):
You and I took notes of so manyof the same things, but Ona is a
essential character in the filmand Ona is a single woman who
has chosen to remain single.
August, the schoolteacher notetaker, has asked her to marry
him many times and she says youknow, if I got married I would
become a different person, notthe person you love.
(27:08):
And she is just beautiful.
She just glows when she smiles.
And she was also attacked andin fact she is pregnant as a
result.
But she is also kind of thephilosopher of the group and
it's clear she has done a lot ofthinking.
When she was younger she hadbeen influenced by August's
(27:29):
mother and that's pretty obvious.
It's pretty clear that that hasstayed with her.
But at some point they talkabout how is forced forgiveness
genuine forgiveness?
Speaker 3 (27:45):
And I think the phrase was is forgiveness that
is forced upon us, trueforgiveness?
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Right, right, yes, thank you.
And I just had to think how isrequiring forgiveness of the
person with less power kind ofbullying them into forgiving
anything, but a way to maintainthe status quo and to turn a
blind eye to harm done?
And one of the women say laterin the film forgiveness becomes
(28:13):
permission.
Yeah, it does.
And how often have we seen thatthat forgiveness means the
person with less power is forcedto suck it up and the
perpetrator is effectively givenpermission to continue.
And Ona makes the beautifulpoint.
(28:34):
What if, leaving, she says.
Or Ona says we cannot forgivebecause we are forced to.
But with some distance perhapsI'm able to understand how these
crimes may have occurred andwith that distance maybe I'm
able to pity these men, perhapsforgive them and even love them.
(28:55):
And Greta, one of the othermatriarchs, says leaving will
give us the more far-seeingperspective we need to forgive.
And I just think how oftenvictims in these situations are
pushed into the spiritual,bypassing form of forgiveness,
where it's like just shut up,comply, and in the process
(29:18):
there's nothing transformative.
All it does is reinforce thepower of the institution.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
At some point and I think it was somewhere in that
conversation the point was madeperhaps it's not the men, but
it's their way of seeing theworld, and I thought that was
such a humanizing statement.
Yes, but also holy shit.
(29:45):
Yeah, it's so true.
Yes, yes, and the power we keep, the power we continue to give
these religious institutions andthe men running them, has got
to be challenged and it needs tostop.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Absolutely about this ?
Was that restoration true,healthy, genuine restoration
requires that the victim isempowered, so that forgiveness
is one option of many.
How many times have we heardforgiveness or hell as the
(30:30):
option?
That's not a choice, that's nota choice, and if our only
options are forgiveness or helland maybe it's not stated quite,
but it's pretty, eventually itwill come down to that.
And how is that anything but arecipe for resentment and
(30:50):
permission and an endorsement ofabuse?
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Right, I thought it was so interesting.
As they were talking about youknow whether to stay, whether to
leave they all of a suddenrealized they needed to talk
about you know.
What is our goal here, what'sour mission?
Yes, and it was like all of asudden they realized they didn't
(31:15):
know who they were.
The quote was when we liberateourselves, we will need to ask
ourselves who are we?
Yeah, and I think for anyonewho has left anything, that is
so true, whether you leave achurch system, whether you leave
a culture, whether you leaveyour home, when you leave
(31:39):
something that is so deeplyembedded into who you are.
That's why deconstruction is sopainful Absolutely Because, all
of a sudden, you have no ideawho you are.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Right, and I'm just going to say again, because so
often deconstruction ismisrepresented by detractors.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
By the same people who want us to so easily forgive
.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Exactly, exactly.
And they equate deconstructionwith destruction.
Deconstruction is notdestruction.
We are deconstructing thismovie right now.
Deconstruction means we arecarefully reflecting, we are
looking piece by piece at abelief system or a text or
(32:24):
whatever it is, and we're sayingwhat is going on here, what are
the messages behind thesedifferent elements, what's the
relationship between thesedifferent elements?
And really gaining a deeperunderstanding rather than just
kind of the surface level, asense of what it is that we
believe.
And I love that, because Ithink that's where a lot of
(32:48):
attempts to change the statusquo get gummed up is when
there's not a clear sense ofwhat are we aiming for, and
that's really hard to do.
That is so much harder to dothan just, I mean, resisting the
status quo is hard, that'sanother order of magnitude.
But I think that that's wherewe get the power of freedom too.
(33:14):
Like they were recognizing, notonly do we have the option of
leaving or option of fightingthat you know the option of
pushing back against theoppression, but we also have the
freedom to, and aresponsibility to say what do we
want to create, you know?
And so then they came up withtheir well not statement of
faith, their manifesto theircore beliefs.
(33:37):
And here's the thing it wasn'tabout a break from their beliefs
in God and pacifism and thoseservice and community, those
things that are reallydistinctive about the Anabaptist
tradition, but it's aboutembracing them, and embracing
(33:59):
them in a way that also embracesjustice and compassion.
Speaker 3 (34:03):
So they quoted the verse as a group, actually in
Philippians, about you know,whatever things are true,
whatever things are honest,whatever things are lovely,
think on these things.
And one of the matriarchs Idon't remember which one said
this I think it was Agatha.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
I think so yeah, Ona's mother.
Speaker 3 (34:24):
I have done the verse of Philippians.
But by staying we betray thecentral tenet of our faith.
We must go.
If we stay we will turn ourhome into a battlefield.
What is good is also freedom.
Freedom is better than slavery.
What is good is forgiveness.
Forgiveness is better thanrevenge.
(34:44):
And that's when they talkedabout.
Perhaps with distance I am ableto pity these men and perhaps
forgive.
But then they moved on to sayand they kind of did it as a
group always moving, neverfighting, always moving, never
fighting, always moving, neverfighting which, again, I just
thought was so insightful.
(35:06):
Insightful, but it's like apicture, picture of so many
women who have fought for change.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
What, for you, is in the word moving?
In that line, I'm just curiouswhat does moving mean to you?
Because, I'll be honest, thatline I was not quite sure what
to make it.
So many of these lines like micdrop after mic drop, and just
as you're saying that, I thinkI'm seeing a new meaning in that
.
But what does it mean to you?
Speaker 3 (35:37):
So earlier on they were talking about a few people
who'd committed suicide, a fewwomen who'd committed suicide,
and they were specificallydiscussing one, and the question
was why did our feet keepmoving?
Others couldn't, and sometimesI think movement is just getting
(36:01):
out of bed, and it's dependingwhat you value.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Right Taking action.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
Right, it's doing the next right thing.
And oftentimes I think thismovement is something many
people don't see, and it'susually not the loud, flashy
things that we value, in quoteleadership, but that daily
movement, that daily.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
It speaks to a vitality.
I mean growth is all.
You can't grow without moving,right, right, kind of that
continual evolution and change.
Yeah, yeah, wow, that's somoving.
Okay, thank you, wow, wow.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
And I also think the fascinating thing here is, we
like to hold men up as theprotectors and the one who'll
take a bullet for their wivesand family, which I think is
bullcrap.
I mean, when has a man lastbeen asked to take a bullet for
his?
Speaker 2 (37:06):
family when has one yes, exactly.
Or even asked to, but even ifMuch less.
Yeah, or I even asked to, butbut even if this conversation
wasn't about them.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
it was about their daughters.
Yeah, it was about their babies.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Yeah, their children.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
It was about protecting, and I'm telling you,
we set men up as the protectors.
It is not the men who do theprotecting.
In my life, rarely have I seenmen do honest protecting.
It's the women who, time andtime again, are the ones who
show up, and the women are theones who say yeah, no, not on my
(37:41):
watch.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Right.
What maybe even some would callprotecting, in reality looks a
whole lot more like abuse.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
It's power.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, it's it's.
Power and protection are notthe same things, people.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Absolutely.
How many times have you been ina situation often say it
involves children or dependentsand a man comes in and sees that
your hands are full?
I've yet to see a man who andsees that your hands are full.
I've yet to see a man who, orthere let's put no.
Let me rephrase that there arevery, very few men who will walk
into that situation and starthelping dish up the food or
(38:22):
start helping with the nighttimeroutine.
No, they'll start yelling atthe kids, they will start
barking out orders.
That is their idea of helping,and it's not.
All it does is escalate.
All it does is make thesituation worse, and that's
their idea of protection andleadership is making the
situation worse.
(38:43):
And guys, I know there are ahandful of you out there who are
the exceptions, but just beware, even if you don't want to be
that kind of person, this isprobably the kind of masculinity
that has been modeled for youand you're going to, just like
we have to unlearn being part ofthis system.
(39:03):
So are men, and one of thethings that I really liked was
so they were trying to decideabout the boys between the ages
of 15 and 12.
Should they come with?
The women, as you know, becounted as children, or should
they be left behind with the men?
And at this point the women askAugust for his input and you
(39:25):
know he's a schoolteacher, so hehas spent a lot of time with
these boys and he says, yes,they are a danger, a potential
danger, to the younger ones, butthen he also points out their
vulnerability to the ones whoare older than them and
basically reminds them if theyleave them behind, then they're
going to be, they will be thelikely victims because they're
(39:49):
going to be at the bottom of thepecking order.
They will be the likely victimsbecause they're going to be at
the bottom of the pecking order,and so the decision is made to
take those young men with themso that they can learn a better
way.
And I just I put this plea outthere for anyone who doesn't
want to be any man who doesn'twant to be described this way,
(40:10):
any man who doesn't want to bepart of the status quo.
Please realize it's going totake conscious effort on your
part, just as much as it takesconscious effort on us women,
Because there might only be ahandful of perpetrators of the
actual violence, but it's thecomplicity of everyone else
around them that allows thesystem, allows the abuse to
(40:31):
continue.
So you have a role.
If you're not part of thesolution, you're going to be
part of the problem.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Absolutely, absolutely.
In the end, they said we areleaving because we cannot stay,
and then this, I believe, endedup being their mission statement
we want our children to be safe.
We want to be steadfast in ourfaith.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
We want to think.
And Marike the one married toan abusive man?
She says this with her arm in asling and her eye swollen one
eye, yeah, swollen shut.
And she has been speaking outof a place of despair and anger
and resentment and all thesethings completely legitimate,
(41:15):
but that next morning, when it'stime to go, she has this whole
new sense of resolve.
She sees the hope in going.
And they don't know wherethey're going.
They have a map, they have asense of what they want to avoid
.
They don't want the othercommunities to find out about
this so that the men you knowwho might, they might alert the
(41:36):
men and they'll come after them.
They don't know where they'regoing.
And I just thought is that notthe case with refugees
everywhere?
You know it's.
I don't know where I'm going,but I can't stay here.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
When home is the no hang on, when home is more
dangerous than the mouth of adragon.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
Yeah Is that the line , that's the concept, that.
I'm thinking of Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (41:59):
Absolutely.
No one leaves home unless homeis the mouth of a dragon.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
Absolutely, absolutely, okay, absolutely
Absolutely.
We judge people.
We judge people so harshly,from immigrants to runaways, to
everyone gets judged for leaving.
I am convinced people do notleave unless home is the mouth
of a dragon.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
different reasons and every situation is different,
but absolutely, absolutely.
The pain, the difficulty, theuncertainty, all of that makes
the barrier to leaving so highthat you've got to, there's got
(42:47):
to be desperation behind it.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
I had to wonder back to Marieke.
I had to wonder whether shewould have been able to reach
this point if the apologieshadn't been made, if she hadn't
been heard If she hadn't beenseen, if they wouldn't have said
yes, you're right.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
We've let you down, yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
It seems like I think the whole film did such an
incredible job of seeing everysingle person in that damn barn
Like to me that was one of themagical parts of it.
There wasn't necessarily a star, they were really a group who
(43:33):
took this position seriously.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
There was no hero.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
There was no hero.
Yeah, they were all heroes.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Because nobody could have done this without the
others, the other.
It took them all workingtogether.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
Yeah.
Yeah working together.
Yeah, yeah, and I thought itwas so beautiful how August's
mother, who was excommunicated,was even honored.
It all came back and August inthat was honored as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And for all the criticism Ihave heard about the book and
(44:10):
the film, I don't see this assomeone trying to tell the
Bolivian story or as it shouldbe.
It's telling everybody's story.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Yes, right, and in the film it never says where
they are, it never says who theyare, it doesn't, it does not
even go into any of that.
Yes, that the universality ofit I think, is so important,
because how many of us have beenin a work situation, a family
situation or a church situation?
Of a religious situation, Ishould say, not just church, but
(44:46):
religious setting, where thesedynamics have been at play, but
religious setting where thesedynamics have been at play and
where we have to break out ofour hyper independence and we
have to join hands with otherswho are also experiencing this
oppression, and it's only byworking together that we can
(45:07):
recreate something better.
Speaker 3 (45:10):
And guess what?
They didn't need someone fromthe outside coming in to be.
Guess what?
They didn't need someone fromthe outside coming in to be the
hero.
They didn't need to be rescued,they didn't need someone to
tell them what to do, and Ithink that's part of the beauty
of it.
They were their own damn heroes, right, right, and I think we
all can be that for ourselves.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
We can take inspiration from them.
Yeah, I mean, they have shownus how to do that
self-examination and how to acton it.
The film does not for a secondturn away from the grief.
Exactly, I just boohooed atthat scene when they are finally
(45:52):
leaving.
But there were a handful ofpeople who stayed behind, who
didn't want to leave.
And there was one mother playedby Frances McDormand, and folks
might know her from Fargo andlots of other films.
She's just wonderful as anactor, but they refer to her as
(46:12):
Scarface.
It's clear she has survivedsome significant abuse and her
daughter, it's evident herdaughter has as well.
She has two daughters and atthe very end of the film, as the
caravan is heading out, themother is standing there with
her two daughters.
As the caravan is heading out,the mother is standing there
with her two daughters.
And then the mother goes backin the house and the two girls
(46:35):
run and jump in one of thebuggies and join the caravan.
And it's such a bittersweetmoment where you're cheering for
the girls but your heart isripped out for the sacrifices
that everybody is making thereFor the mother who lost her two
daughters, for the daughters wholost their mother in that
(46:57):
moment and I had to wonder didFrances McDormand's character,
the mother in that situation?
Did she intentionally go back inthe house instead of standing
there with her girls?
Did she understand that,implicitly, she was standing
back so they could leave, eventhough it was clear that that
was not her position?
(47:18):
She had very little to say,just lots of disapproval on her
face all the way through.
I want to sacrifice, and evenshe has.
It's a redeeming moment for her, even though, for whatever
reason, she's decided to staybehind and who knows, who knows
what her story is.
I just, yeah, I can't think ofthat moment without becoming
(47:44):
emotional, because of how muchlove and pain was present in the
same moment and pain waspresent in the same moment.
Speaker 3 (47:50):
And you know, I think that this whole thing is it's
not about staying or going, it'sabout the unimaginable grief.
It's about the unimaginablegrief that is involved in making
that decision, the griefinvolved in all of them.
I mean stay or go.
It's a horrible, horrible spotto be in and I think it's a
(48:14):
story for every person who hashad to decide to leave or to
stay.
I mean, either way.
Either way, there is so muchpain and there is so much grief
and there's so much loss.
And this is not abouttrivializing any of it.
It's to go back to your pointthat there's pain either loss,
and this is not abouttrivializing any of it.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
It's to go back to your point that there's pain
either way and all we can do ischoose what hurts versus what
hurts worse, and we don't alwaysknow what that's going to be.
Sometimes you just have to jumpbecause the mouth of the dragon
is right there.
Speaker 3 (48:57):
Yeah, I think sometimes we do this whole
notion of staying or going andwe try to make it a right or a
wrong thing.
We do it to ourselves, we do itto other people.
I recently not recently, thisisn't really recent, but anyway
I have friends whose marriageendured infidelity and addiction
.
He made changes, she stayed,and now they're kind of the
spokes people for the God HealsMarriages crowd.
(49:17):
I have another friend who leftand this friend is absolutely
creating a beautiful life.
But this friend is almost thestar of Leave and Pursue your
Dreams.
What if it's not that simple?
What if the magic isn't instaying or leaving, but it's in
the choice?
What if it's in having a voiceand the power to make that
(49:43):
choice?
Speaker 2 (49:45):
Why is it so?
Speaker 3 (49:45):
difficult for us to simply support and empower women
, no matter the choice.
Speaker 2 (49:53):
And respect their sense of knowing.
Yeah, respect that they areweighing the pros and cons and
making a complicated calculationand arriving at a particular
place with good reason.
I can't tell you how many timesI have observed someone or
something and thought, oh,they've got to do this
(50:16):
differently, they've got to dothis, they got to do that right.
How can they not?
And yet, when I actually learnmore about the situation, or,
down the road, when I have abetter perspective on it, I go,
oh okay, that makes so muchsense.
And what's the saying?
Don't judge someone's choicesuntil you know what their
(50:37):
options are.
Yeah, and I just think, whetherwe're talking relationships or
whatever the situation is, thefurther you are from it, the
more simple the answer appearsto be.
And, again and again, are fromit, the more simple the answer
appears to be.
And, again and again, thecloser you get to it, the more
(50:58):
complicated it is, the more allthe options are crappy and you
just have to choose between whathurts and what hurts worse.
Speaker 3 (51:02):
We like to brag about people who make good choices.
Sometimes, people just simplyhave good options.
Yeah, and that makes adifference.
Speaker 2 (51:10):
It makes a huge difference when you have all
good options.
Yeah, and that makes adifference.
It makes a huge difference whenyou have all good options
versus all bad options.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (51:19):
I also think that this is about the magic that
happens when women talk.
When you get groups of womentogether, it can produce change,
and community-wide change,right.
That typically doesn't occurwhen it's men talking.
I mean, let's even consider whoheaded up the scholarship for
(51:41):
the Amish Educational Fund it'swomen.
We have so many male doctorswho have left the Amish
Mennonite community.
Are they setting upscholarships?
Speaker 2 (51:53):
No, and they're at a retirement age.
They are at an age when theycould.
And who is it?
No, it's women, One of whom isat least one of whom is a mother
of young children.
Speaker 3 (52:06):
I mean she, yeah, and I think there is so much power
when women start talking, whenwomen start arguing, when women
start debating.
Women know how to protect andthey know how to survive and
they know how to get shit done,and women will do the impossible
if only to protect their kids.
Speaker 2 (52:28):
That's so true.
It's like the film is a giant.
What if?
Right to protect their kids?
That's so true.
It's like the film is a giant.
What if?
What if women were given thespace to think?
What if women took advantage ofwhatever meager resources we
have available to us to createthat space where women can think
(52:48):
and make decisions that aregoing to, where women can think
and make decisions that aregoing to improve the lives of
everyone in the group?
What if women dared imaginesomething different?
What if?
And to me, the aesthetic of thefilm.
It's not exactly black andwhite, but awfully close.
I'm not sure what the technicalterm for it is, but it kind of
(53:20):
has this dreamy, otherworldlyquality to it.
It might even feel a little bitstylized and stiff, but even so
, what they're doing isdifferent for them too, right?
Exactly, they are charting anew course, so there's a
learning curve for them.
They are expressing thoughtsthey've probably never really
had an opportunity to expressand to challenge each other and
(53:43):
arrive at resolution todetermine what it is they do
want out of life, like.
All these things are new andit's all as an active female or
feminist imagination.
It's saying what if?
What if we did this more often,and not just in an obscure
religious community in SouthAmerica, but also those of us in
(54:06):
privileged North America Right.
Speaker 3 (54:09):
What if the question was asked who benefits from the
film and the book?
And I think the answer is weall can benefit.
So the question was asked likewho benefits?
Who benefits from the film, whobenefits from the book?
And I think the answer is weall can benefit.
This isn't some kind ofglamorization of someone's
(54:31):
trauma, but it's a really realand a very raw depiction of what
abuse and violent behavior doesto survivors.
It validates the pain, itvalidates the conflict and, I
think, even more importantly,the growth that happens when
women band together and decidethey've had enough.
And I just think it is such abeautiful work of art and of
(54:58):
imagination and it's changed theway I even think about things.
It doesn't change the way Ithink about Olivia necessarily,
I mean maybe indirectly.
Speaker 2 (55:15):
Necessarily, I mean maybe indirectly, but it changes
the way I think about my powerand even my responsibility.
I don't know that there'sanything left to say after that.
That's such a beautiful way tosum up what we just saw.
Speaker 3 (55:25):
Yeah grab a box of tissues, go watch the movie.
Shoes, go watch the movie.
I think reading the book isquite important.
Speaker 2 (55:34):
I agree.
I agree Because you get somedetails you don't get in the
movie.
And I tell you for me, Iwatched the movie before.
It was very moving.
I mean, it has stuck with meever since.
But then listening to the audiobook Sunday afternoon and then
watching the movie that evening,oh my goodness, oh my goodness.
Like I said, my eyes were stillpuffy the next day.
Speaker 3 (55:56):
Yeah, yeah, it was but?
Speaker 2 (55:58):
but it was not.
I don't want to scare anybodyoff right like the.
I think what was so moving wasnot just the pain that we saw in
their faces and that we couldidentify with, but it's also the
power.
It's also what they were doing.
I had so much admiration.
Oh Ona, oh my gosh, I know, itwas good.
(56:25):
They were good tears.
Yeah, they were good tears.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely so.
I, yeah, grab the Kleenex, graban extra box and then settle in
.
Speaker 3 (56:38):
Yeah, and I think it would be fair to say too, I was
concerned about triggers beforeI watched it and I think that
was part of my hesitation aswell, and I think they had a
good therapist involved, like,are there moments where it's
triggering and difficult?
(56:59):
It was very tastefully done.
Speaker 2 (57:03):
There was no gratuitous violence.
There was.
We only saw the effects.
Speaker 1 (57:09):
After effects the after effects?
Speaker 2 (57:11):
Yeah yeah, we only saw the effects.
The after effects, yeah yeah,and of the violence, of the
attacks.
We didn't see them actuallyhappening.
The drama comes in therelationships between the women.
Yeah, the drama comes in thechoices the women are making.
The drama doesn't come from theviolence that's done to the
women.
Speaker 3 (57:30):
Which again takes back the power.
Speaker 1 (57:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (57:34):
Makes women, the center.
Speaker 3 (57:36):
It doesn't give power to the violence.
Speaker 2 (57:41):
The perpetrators are never we never even see the
faces of the perpetrators, right?
We never see or the men, ormost of the men anyway, right,
yeah, yeah, it doesn't.
Or the men, or most of the menanyway, right?
Speaker 3 (57:51):
Yeah, it doesn't.
It acknowledges the violenceand it acknowledges the abuse,
but it doesn't give power to it,right?
Speaker 2 (58:00):
It takes the power back.
Yeah Well, and if anybody haswatched the film and has
thoughts, you know, you can justclick the link in our show
notes and send us a text and letus know what you thought about
it.
We'd love to love to hear fromyou.
And maybe it doesn't hit witheverybody the way it did with us
(58:21):
, and that's okay too.
We all bring our unique set ofexperiences to media and to
films like this one.
But if there's something you'dlike to share about your
thoughts about the book or thefilm, we'd love to hear.
And so, until we find the nextcrack in our lives, we can steal
(58:43):
a moment to record, to sit downto record.
We wish you all the best andthank you for listening.
Speaker 1 (58:51):
Catch you next time.
Thank you for spending timewith us today.
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 2 (59:13):
What are your thoughts about college and
recovery from high demandreligion?
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences and we
want to talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atuncoveredlifebeyond.
At gmailcom.
That's uncoveredlifebeyond.
At gmailcom gmailcom.
That's uncoveredlifebeyond atgmailcom.
Speaker 1 (59:32):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode.
Speaker 2 (59:46):
Until next time, stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward.
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