October 21, 2024 • 49 mins
In this episode we discuss the recently release documentary, For Our Daughters, based on a chapter of Kristin Kobes Du Mez' bestselling book, Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation. This relatively short documentary exposes toxic power dynamics with the Southern Baptist Convention among other religious institutions where victims are often shamed while predators are protected. We reflect on the predictable patterns that often accompany systemic abuse within institutions and the devastating effects of these conditions on those who are harmed by them as well as those deconstructing them. We question the protective mechanisms that shield abusers and the societal norms that keep victims silent.
In light of the historical dangers of melding religious and political power, we challenge those who identify with the Anabaptist tradition to lead the way in cautioning the broader American church from seeking political power at the expense of spiritual integrity.
We conclude with a brief non-partisan public service announcement about voting in the upcoming election and where to find accurate polling information in your local community.
Links and Resources
For Our Daughters (YouTube)
Resources and Discussion Guide: https://www.forourdaughtersfilm.com/
Distinctive Features of the "Radical" Anabaptist Tradition
Elections and Voting Information
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
This is Rebecca and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path Along the
way, we've uncovered a fewinsights we want to share with
fellow travelers.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up, we are here to cheeryou on and assure you that the
best is yet to come.
Welcome to Uncovered LifeBeyond.
Hello everyone, welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.
(01:08):
This is Naomi.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
And this is Rebecca, so look at us, we are actually
back?
Speaker 1 (01:15):
We are.
We found a little.
What did I call it A fringe?
No, we found a crack, a crackin the day that we could slide
this into.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
And that's about the case.
It is a crack, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Right, right.
How's life for you?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
I feel like I'm always saying it's kicking my
butt, but I think right now itis literally kicking my butt.
I'm not, I'm barely treadingwater between my classes and I
feel like the course load thissemester is really heavy.
The one class it's athree-credit hour and he just
(01:53):
keeps throwing more stuff andmore projects and I'm like, dude
, I mean this is just athree-credit hour class, it's
not that.
Yeah, so yeah, between that andlife and work and all the
things, it's a lot.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
And just jumping around from one thing to the
next.
Right, you're like keeping upwith all the things.
I think is its own energy suckRight.
Energy drain yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Absolutely.
How about?
Speaker 1 (02:22):
you.
Well, same same, you know,flying by the seat of my pants,
and you know, and the thing isthat, well, I was telling you
the other day, like in so manyways things are going great, uh,
like my interpersonal stress isas low as it's been a long time
.
You know, I love the work I'mdoing, but everything's coming
(02:43):
at me like a fire hose and andI'm not I don't know if it's the
weather or what, but mymigraines have been worse and so
, yeah, it's kind of a mixed bagof of of good and flying by the
seat of my pants.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
It's one thing if we're busy and feeling okay, but
it's another thing if you'rebusy and not feeling real well.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Right, well, and it's frustrating to me because it's
not like I'm.
It's not like I'm miserable,it's not like I'm doing things I
don't want to do, or that.
I'm not enjoying the things I'mdoing.
It's not like the stress is allgood stress, but it's still
yeah, like the stress is allgood stress, but it's still yeah
(03:27):
.
One fun thing is that the firstyear students at the college
where I teach are reading TaraWestover's book Educated for
their first year seminar, and soa number of the professors who
are teaching those sections ofthat class are assigning parts
(03:48):
of our podcast.
Shut up that is so exciting.
If any of my students or otherLaura's students are listening,
hey, go do Hawks.
So this past week one of thoseprofessors invited me to come
talk to her class and we had areally good time talking about
(04:11):
the impact of Wisconsin versusYoder on schooling, or the lack
thereof for religious reasons.
You know beyond that, and so Iwas so impressed with some of
the observations that thestudents made and like some of
(04:31):
the connections they made, and Ialso had a picture of
schoolboys in O'Line, iowa, sothat's just a little ways from
here, and there were somestudents who recognized that
it's a very small town inNortheast Iowa and some students
recognize that.
And that was like back in 1965,and they were, you know,
(04:53):
fleeing the truant officers whowere forcing them, persecuting
them by making them go to school.
So yeah, so that was kind of afull circle moment, because
that's not.
I haven't really, you know,integrated these parts of my
lives until the podcast, and sothis is kind of an extension of
that.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
That is so awesome and so validating for you and it
speaks to the person you areand I love that.
And the other thing I thinkthat we forget is man, the kids
these days are smart, like.
They can make connections inways that I don't think I was
making.
I know I wasn't making at theirage and we like to diss the
(05:39):
whole notion of social media andall that and it has its points,
but at the same time I think ithas really brought an awareness
that we were desperatelyneeding in the world.
I agree, I agree.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
So our topic today is about a documentary that came
out recently, and it's a reallyshort one, only 30 minutes long.
I loved it, right right.
It's based on a chapter of thebook Jesus and John Wayne by
Kristen Kobes-Dumé, and itexplores the culture of toxic
(06:22):
power in the church, and itspecifically focuses on scandals
in the Southern BaptistConvention that came to light in
a Houston newspaper expose backin 2019, and the aftermath and
(06:44):
voices of survivors.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
You know, I think that this was such an important
conversation and I'm so gladwe're having it, but I think the
part that always takes me bysurprise is the ways that this
is so connected and for ourlisteners, I think it's really
important that you take the timeto watch this.
(07:09):
Like Naomi said, it's just 30minutes, but it's so informative
and you can't help but notnotice the connections involved
with Tia Loving's book and thatwhole conversation, and also
(07:29):
shiny, happy people, like guys.
These people are all in bedtogether, like it is all
connected and to me it's reallyfrightening.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Yes, absolutely, and the patterns of behavior and of
control are so predictable Likeit's almost boring.
If it weren't so tragic, right,right, it would be boring, for
how predictable they are acrossorganizations and organizations,
(08:01):
religious organizations thatclaim to be the representatives
of God on earth, that claim tobe the one true way.
Right, right, you claim to knowthe will of God.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
They claim to be the one true way, they claim to know
the will of God, but they alsotell us that by staying with
them we'll be protected,especially we, meaning women
will be protected, and thereverse is so true.
That is where we are exploitedthe most.
We are exploited for our labor,we are exploited for everything
(08:39):
, and then also for our Rightand they certainly aren't
protected, certainly aren'tprotected.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And just as a side note, I'mglad you mentioned those other
ways that the exploitationhappens, because I think the
sexual abuse is absolutelyserious, it's absolutely
egregious and also it's not theonly kind, and I think sometimes
the other kinds of abuse themore you know like the spiritual
(09:08):
abuse, the labor exploitation,those kinds of things are
sometimes a little more subtleand maybe more easy to ignore.
And yet it's all a package dealRight in the Christian
nationalist elements.
And the more these kinds ofthings are exposed, the more we
(09:46):
see that they have.
What they've been accusingtheir opponents of is the very
thing they've been doing.
Like.
Again, it's boringlypredictable.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
When it's such a lesson in projection oh right.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
I mean they claim to be the ones protecting women and
children, but they are the onesharming so many women and
children.
I mean, they're the ones who areaccusing the LGBTQ community,
trans kids of all these horrible, horrible things, but they're
(10:21):
the ones who are doing the abuseand protecting the abusers.
And, at the same time, theyaccuse women of being power
hungry for wanting equality inthe church.
They are the ones who claim tobe speaking for God and on top
of all this, it turns out at thetop they aren't actually
(10:43):
anti-abortion.
It's that they want to choosewhich women get abortions and
which ones don't.
And just for an example of that, there was a woman named Debbie
Vasquez, who and she's notmentioned in the documentary,
but this is mentioned in somenews reports about this
situation and this is someonewho was 14, was abused by a
(11:06):
pastor and then, when she becamepregnant and she was forced to
stand in front of thecongregation apologize for
having sex out of wedlock andbecoming pregnant, and then,
behind the scenes, they werepressuring her to have an
abortion.
And so just the layers ofhypocrisy and abuse all
(11:29):
contribute to such a lack ofintegrity on the part of this
major religious institution inour country.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
And I'm always surprised in this type of
situation how often the14-year-old, the 15-year-old, is
demanded to not only repent atchurch but also apologize to the
pastor's wife or the offender'swife.
These girls are 14, 15 yearsold.
(12:02):
I know two situations here inHolmes County where that
happened.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Like it's a way of it's a way it's one dimension of
it is protecting the meninvolved from taking
accountability as adults forstatutory rape.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Right.
But it also sends a broadermessage out to the other people,
to the other women, out to theother people, to the other women
, to the other girls, to theother children to keep your
mouth shut.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Yes, and if you speak up, you're going to be the one
taking the fall.
Right, right, right.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
And I think we are told from infancy to trust and
to respect our spiritual leadersand that they're God-ordained,
and all this other Dogma, dogma,yeah, I was going to say
ideology, but dogma is probablya better, but it's so ingrained
(13:01):
in us and we're told that theyprotect not only us as
individuals, but they protectour souls.
They fight for our souls and sooften it's not a fight for us,
it's not a fight for simply acasualty.
In this fight for power, inthis quest for power and abuse,
(13:30):
victims end up being a casualty.
That is simply a shrug.
It's like well got to take onefor the team.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
To use their own words.
It's a distraction.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
It's not a problem.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
I mean it's not a serious problem and it's
certainly not a problem that'sindicative of larger issues,
right, right, least about theSouthern Baptist Convention,
(14:05):
because for years there had beencalls for them to have some
kind of a database for trackingabusers in the churches so that
they're not moving around fromone church to the next.
And in the report that came outby a third party in 2022, it
turns out that as far back as2008 already, the leaders of the
(14:30):
SBC were refusing to do this,even though they were privately
saying.
These same people wereprivately saying that, yeah,
this could be a really practicalway to stop predators, but they
didn't want to do it becausethey said, well, all our
churches are autonomous, there'sno way we could do this, no way
we could do this, but no way wecould hold local churches
(14:54):
accountable.
But then what came out in 2022is they actually did have a
database, they actually had beentracking abusers all this time
and in no way did they try toreach out and try to protect the
church people, right, thechurch members, the vulnerable
who were at risk of being abused.
(15:14):
No attempt to prosecute thoseabusers, to bring them to
justice or stop them in any way.
I mean essentially, thedatabase was there to protect
them them in any way.
I mean essentially, thedatabase was there to protect
them.
And since then the SBC has justdoubled down.
(15:36):
They are more concerned aboutwomen in leadership.
That is a bigger problem.
They're more concerned aboutthe LGBTQ community.
Those are worse sins to themthan abuse and earlier this
summer at their annualconvention, they did
disaffiliate four churches.
One was about a church that hada woman who was in leadership,
(15:59):
another one had to do withacceptance of LGBTQ folks being
open and affirming, and I thinkone of the churches had to do
with sex offenders.
I mean it was two of them, butthis is who they're lumping
together.
It's so sad and I think it's.
I don't know, do they hearthemselves?
Do they see how much theiractions reveal about what
(16:25):
actually matters to them?
Speaker 2 (16:27):
I think they actually do know.
I just think they're countingon the rest of us not paying
attention.
And I also think my observationhas been there is nothing more
dramatic than when a churchrestores an offender.
It is so easy and so romantic,almost so godly, to side with a
(16:58):
sinner who has repented and towitness this restoration of his
faith and his relationship withGod.
On the flip side, it is somessy and it costs so much to
enter into the pain and thegrief and the devastation of
(17:19):
abuse.
And I think time and again wesee those in power siding with
what's easy, with what is flashyand also what protects them.
Because, if they protect JoeSchmo over here, Joe Schmo is
(17:39):
obligated to protect them in thefuture.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Right right.
It's more about protectingtheir image which they're pretty
open about that and deferringto the most toxic person in the
room, right in the documentarywhere that was happening, where
a young woman who had beenabused by a youth minister who
(18:03):
then went on to this highlysuccessful career in church
ministry, and years later thanwhen her daughter was about that
age, she went, oh my goodness,and she realized just how
egregiously she had beenbetrayed by the people who
should have been looking out forher.
And so when she reached out andwanted to address this, then at
(18:30):
that point that youth ministernow years later, in more senior
positions of leadership he goesup there and, yeah, this whole
thing about his repentance isromanticized.
And then they throw her underthe bus by saying, unfortunately
, this person he had thisrelationship with, no, he
(18:53):
assaulted her that she has notchosen the same path of healing
that he has, and this is howthey talked about her call for
accountability is by throwingher under the bus.
They're not even.
I guess, when people get sodrunk on their own power at a
(19:15):
certain point they don't eventry to hide it anymore.
And, like you said, I thinkthat secondary betrayal, I mean
that's ongoing wounding bygaslighting and scapegoating,
and so many victims have saidthat that goes so much deeper
even than the initial attackbecause of, I mean, that's your
(19:38):
social circle that the humanbody, the human nervous system
relies on for safety, and it'snot, it's further betraying you
and it's an ongoing, it's not aone-time event but it's ongoing
wounding.
But, as you pointed out earlier, it's not just about protecting
the abuser, but it's also aboutbeing a warning to other
(20:01):
potential victims to keep silentif it happens to them cape
dresses.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
This is why we wear a head covering.
This is why we are submissive.
This is why we have a meek andgentle spirit.
This is why we are demure.
All of this will keep you safe.
All of this is for yourprotection.
All of this is for you becausewe care so much about you.
And then, when it doesn't work,it's suggested, or it's as if
(20:41):
obviously you got somethingwrong, and I think that it's a
test that you can never, everstudy hard enough for.
You simply can't get it right,and it turns out that when you
ask the question, who are youprotecting us from?
(21:02):
They like to act like they'reprotecting us from the world.
They aren't protecting us fromthe world, they're protecting us
from themselves and theirbuddies.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
They're protecting their buddies from the world
from being held accountable bythe world.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Right, right, and I think at some point it's only
fair to ask the question why amI doing this?
Why am I looking to people likeyou for my protection?
You want to get in line and youwant to tell us women what we
(21:37):
need to do, but you can't tellyour own buddies to get their
act together called in somechurches.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
It doesn't explicitly say don't believe women and
children who accuse men ofterrible things, but it creates
that power structure where a manwho is accused of terrible
things by those this theologyviews as beneath him is often
given endless benefit of thedoubt, and I think that was
Christian Dumais who said that,and so it doesn't need to be
(22:23):
said explicitly for that to bethe effect of that teaching.
And anybody who doesn't line upwith it is then called immoral
or out of line, or not listeningto God, out of God's will.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
And I think in the process, then even well-meaning
parents get themselves stuckbetween wanting to speak up and
protect their kids while alsorisking both themselves and
their family and their childrenfrom becoming cast out and
making the situation even worseand I think we all know that a
(23:02):
lot of these settings, theseinstitutions, they need a
scapegoat.
They need someone that everyonecan see who's not getting it
right, and no one wants to bethat person.
No one wants their kids to bethat person, right?
Speaker 1 (23:20):
And, yes, it puts well-meaning parents in an awful
double bind, right, right, andI think it also does a secondary
betrayal of, well, of course,other vulnerable people who are
going to be hurt by the system,but also there's an element of
betrayal of people who aregenuinely well-meaning, upright
(23:41):
people who want to do the rightthing, who think that by
following the rules, they'redoing the right thing, and yet
Well and oftentimes.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Oftentimes, it's people who actually take the
Bible seriously, right, right,it's people who are studying the
Bible and the words of Jesusand who are taking it seriously,
right, and I think that's thepart that gets so messed up,
because these same leaders willcome back and say, well, these
people weren't true Christians.
No, these people were payingattention.
(24:12):
Yeah right, oftentimes thesepeople were the ones who were
paying attention.
These were the ones who werefollowing the rules and who
sincerely wanted to follow Jesus.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Right and their sincerity is being used as a
like a smoke screen for acorrupt system.
Yeah, it's maddening and nowwe're getting out into like kind
of secondary, tertiary kinds ofdynamics here.
But then I think of people whofeel so much grief over the fact
(24:42):
that I'm no longer in a plaincommunity and there's a part of
me that really wants to cushionthem from that grief.
And part of the way to cushionthem from that grief is to
implicitly endorse thesereligious systems.
And yet I can't endorse thesesystems that are so corrupt and
that are so abusive and harmfuland have zero integrity.
(25:07):
And not to make this all aboutme, but I think I'm not alone in
this wanting to shield peoplewho are sincerely grieved that
I'm no longer part of the system, while also being true to
myself and getting out of atoxic situation.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
And I think that is maybe one of the most difficult
things of.
I was going to first sayleaving, but I'm not sure it's
leaving as much asdeconstruction.
I have a theory that pastorsare more angry at people who
deconstruct than they are atpeople who leave their church,
and it is easier to work withpeople who jump from church to
church but never makefundamental changes.
(25:54):
They might change on theoutside, their covering shape
might change or, you know, theymight now wear skirts instead of
cape dresses or whores, theymight wear pants, you know.
Whatever, whatever, there mightbe some outward changes.
But deconstruction, doneproperly, changes the way you
(26:16):
think, the way you view theworld, and it challenges some of
those fundamental quote truthswe've been taught.
That, I believe, is what scaresreligious leaders the most.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Oh yeah, they'd much rather someone makes those
superficial changes or goes outand totally messes up their
lives.
Right, right, totally succumbsto addictions and all kinds of
horrible self-sabotagingbehaviors.
They have a box for that theyhave a sin will take you further
(26:50):
than you wanted to go line forthat.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
They have something for those people, they have a
narrative.
But for the person whodeconstructs and says wait, wait
, wait, what you're doing is notokay, it goes against the words
of Jesus, not okay and startsto seriously poke at some of
those holes and then turnsaround and actually advocates
(27:15):
helps the marginalized, thesingle mom, the immigrant Now
that will piss off a pastor.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yeah, the worst news is someone who knows the
scriptures, who is deep into itand then dares to have an
independent thought and beginsto question the dogma.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
And I think what's so hard is I all of a sudden came
to the realization that it's notjust a bug or a few rotten
apples.
At some level this whole systemis rotten.
I thought when I was in theMennonite church in the
Anabaptist world that it was anAnabaptist or an Amish Mennonite
(27:57):
law.
It was something rotten intheir system.
And then, darn it.
I get out of the culture andinto a mega church and I see the
same things happening.
It's like crap.
I recognize these patterns.
I get into a more liberalMennonite church and I'm like,
well shoot, they think like thebeachy Mennonite people.
(28:18):
And I'm like, well shoot, theystill think like the Amish.
Or they think like the beachyMennonite people, they just
don't dress like they do.
They've got the same stuffgoing on.
They've got the same abusersitting in their church pews and
they do nothing about it.
And all of a sudden I had tocome to the realization that
this is not specific on areligion or a denomination.
(28:42):
It's a systemic issue in theway institutions are organized,
and I think religiousorganizations tend to be the
most harmful because they haveJesus on their side.
It gives them extra leverage,it gives them extra power.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Absolutely, and it's, instead of this being an
exception, or yeah, we're allthere's, there's, we're all
human, or or whatever thethought stopping cliche might be
it begin, you begin to see thatit's.
It's not a bug, it's a feature,right.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
This is how it's supposed to work.
Right?
It's a.
It's a.
It's one of the building blocksof the organization.
It's what holds theorganization together.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Another thing that I thought was really telling was
the responses of some of theleaders in the Southern Baptist
Convention in the years sincethis came out.
The report came out in 2022,and their line, their central
(29:45):
talking point, has been oh, thisis a distraction from our core
message, which is evangelism.
Now there have been people whosay, oh no, those quotes are
being taken out of context andblah, blah, blah blah.
But when we understand thatevangelism is code for
(30:06):
recruitment, that is recruitmentin a war, in a culture war in a
spiritual war that once morereveals this is all about power.
What is important to them is thecontinual building of power,
the building of theirinstitution, the building of
their empire, not dealing withthe people that they claim to
(30:31):
care for.
And one survivor tweeted inresponse.
Thank you for exposing yourheart by referring to us as a
distraction.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Yep.
So I was in a conversation witha friend and the friend was
telling me that local churchesprefer to go overseas for
missions instead of locallybecause they get more bang for
their buck.
They can reach more peopleoverseas, you see, than they can
by helping the single mother,so it's more bang for their buck
(31:03):
.
And I looked at her and I saidhas your pastor ever read the
parable of the lost sheep?
Has your pastor ever read theparable of the good Samaritan?
Our churches gain power andfunding by stepping over the
abuse victim, by stepping overthe single mom, by stepping over
(31:26):
the obvious needs, exactly bystepping over the immigrant on
their way to the airport fortheir next mission trip, for
their next conference, for theirnext, whatever it is.
We step over, we don't crossthe street anymore.
I think there was a point intime where seeing someone's pain
(31:48):
might have forced you to crossthe street, so you didn't have
to be up close to it.
These days, we are so callousto it that we see our pastors
literally stepping over thevictim in order to move on to
the next big thing.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
And the victim's lucky if they don't get kicked
in the process Right.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
And I just don't understand how we're supposed to
reconcile this with the goodnews, supposed to reconcile this
with the good news.
I'm not sure how we're supposedto reconcile this with the life
of Jesus.
I don't understand how Sundaymorning after Sunday morning,
(32:30):
people go to church and don'tstruggle with these
disconnections.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yeah, the complete lack of integrity.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Yeah, how did we get here?
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Right, right and in the documentary what happened?
Again and again, as womenbrought these issues to light,
they were attacked as attackingthe cause of Christ and again.
So the cause of Christ is aboutignoring abuse.
I mean, have they read theirBibles?
(33:03):
And have they read their Bibles?
Yes, and how do you sit inchurch week after week and
observe this disconnect?
I think to me like it's such anexample of how we should
automatically be suspicious whenguilt and shame are used as
motivations, because how manypeople are in those church pews
(33:26):
because they have been guiltedor shamed into showing up for
church and they're there withgritted teeth.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
But there's also many who are there because it's
comfortable, sure, sure, there'smany who are there because
their family is there, theirextended family is there, their
social group is there, and theyclutch their Kate Spade purse
just a little tighter if there'san immigrant who doesn't
understand the language issitting beside them and I have a
(33:58):
Kate Spade purse.
So, in all fairness, I've gotKate Spade purse.
So, in all fairness, I've gotKate Spade too.
So that's why I use Kate Spade.
But anyone different, anyonewho is messy or has pain,
disrupts that comfort.
And I don't mean this as abroad stroke, but I often wonder
how many people go to churchfor their comfort.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Oh, I agree.
End of story.
I agree, yeah, that's very muchpresent too, I agree.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
And I know.
I know I have friends who go tochurch and it's more than that
for them.
So I know I'm not speaking foreverybody, but I do wonder.
What percentage sits in the pewSunday after Sunday?
And it has little to do aboutliving the life and the words of
(34:54):
Jesus and it has much more todo with what benefits them.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Right, and I think what is so important to remember
is that toxic systems rely onnon-toxic people being complicit
in wrongdoing, in looking theother way, in assuming the best
about those in leadership, aboutletting the thoughts stopping
(35:24):
cliches do their work.
Most toxic systems are made upof pretty good people, right.
People who are generallyupstanding, who want to be
decent and who don't rock theboat, right?
Because they trust the Lord'sanointed who don't rock the boat
Right Because they trust theLord's anointed.
Well, I think there's like awhole range of reasons why they
(35:47):
don't rock the boat.
Sometimes it's because of thatlike kind of naivete, kind of
naive buy-in to the dogma.
Sometimes they've been guiltedand shamed into going along with
the status quo.
Sometimes they are just tryingto survive and they don't have
the bandwidth to speak up.
(36:08):
I mean I guess I'm just sayinglike there are so many ways that
and reasons and reasons.
I mean I go to dollar tree.
Dollar tree is part of a toxiccapitalist system that is
harming the earth, it's harmingpeople, it is harming so many
(36:28):
people and I still go by thatcrap I, I buy that crap,
nobody's making me, nobody'smaking me and I do right.
So I guess I'm just saying toxicsystems.
What am I saying?
I'm wanting to say severalthings at once.
One of the things I think it'simportant for us to recognize
there are good people in toxicsystems and those good people
(36:50):
are a necessary ingredient forkeeping the system going.
They're an important part of it.
And also there are a variety ofmotivations for staying in a
system like that.
And also, if all thosenon-toxic folks in a toxic
system were to collectively pushback, we could change things.
(37:14):
One person working alone can'tchange things, but working
together we could.
But there are all kinds ofinstitutional barriers that are
put up to prevent that, or atleast to make it difficult, so
it's just messy.
That's where I'm ultimatelygoing with this line of thought.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
No, and I think it's messy.
But I also think your point isvery fair and very true, and I
guess that brings me back to myquestion of what the heck do we
do?
Like what do we do, and I thinkI would also like to point out
these toxic systems are oftenbuilt around charismatic leaders
who have this perceived specialquality that sets them apart
(37:57):
from everyone else.
And I think that's where Icringe about the whole Lord's
anointed bullcrap.
I struggle when I hear that theLord's anointed is once again
hiding abuse or overlooking thesingle mom who desperately needs
help.
If that's what the Lord'sanointed is doing again, why do
(38:22):
I want a part of that?
Your version of Jesus is prettywatered down and it pretty
easily can make your God lookreally, really bad, and I don't
understand why we're not moreaware and conscious of that.
(38:43):
What kind of a God are wetrying to sell?
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Yeah, it's a God that is based more on conquest.
Yeah, it's based on conquest,yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
And I get frustrated when people tell me that it is
imperfect people doing God'swork, because, while that is
certainly true when the best ofGod's people are not simply
doing imperfect work butdamaging work, harmful, work,
corrupt work, and doubling downon it when they're called out.
(39:16):
And doubling down on it whenthey're called out.
What do you have to offer thatthe world doesn't have?
Speaker 1 (39:23):
Yeah, yeah, and I would say this is why the pews
are emptying.
Yeah, this is why the pews areemptying.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
I think so too, and I worry about what this is going
to do long term, because I don'tthink these religious systems
ever imagined what the world ofsocial media, what TikTok, is
going to do to theirorganizations and the way
they're going to be exposed.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Right, it's like they never imagined that the verse
they love to quote about thethings of darkness being exposed
yeah, there's a verse aboutthat.
Yes, there is.
It's escaping me, you know.
That would be turned on them,right, it would be speaking of
them.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
It's almost like they thought they could convince
their people that God waswatching them and their works
and their thoughts and theiractions, even in secret, but
somehow they forgot that thesame God was watching them and
keeping a tally of their stuff.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
It's almost as though God was made in their own image
.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
And I think these leaders think that not only God
will forget, but that theirpeople will forget.
And if there are any leaderslistening, trust me on this when
I say your abuse victims willnever forget how you treated
them or didn't treat them.
Your abuse victims will neverforget.
(40:57):
Your abuse victims will neverforget.
There's a pastor who keepsshowing up on my feed every so
often.
We have mutual friends andevery time his picture shows up
I just get a little green inside.
We remember.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Yeah, yeah.
And one connection thedocumentary makes is about the
dark side of marrying faith andpolitics.
And this is nothing new.
This is something right, that'sbeen around for millennia.
But I think no one should beclearer about what's at stake,
(41:34):
why this is a problem, thanthose who've identified as
Anabaptists, those who arefamiliar with the Anabaptist
tradition.
You know, as we've been talkingabout here, the American church
is running in the oppositedirection from its own teachings
, right, while also claiming topractice the Bible, literally
(41:55):
Right, and they are moreconcerned about gaining power
than they are about theteachings of Jesus.
And it blows my mind sometimeshow blatantly they do this
without more people calling themon it, except I guess people
are just voting with their feetand leaving.
Think, those of us who have anAnabaptist background, whether
(42:19):
or not we still identify withthe tradition or not, certainly
have access to a tradition, toour way of thinking about why
connecting religion and politicscan be such a problem and why
this is something that thinkingpeople should avoid, like people
(42:42):
who care about humanity shouldavoid this.
People who know what happens inhistory, what has happened in
history when we have marriedthose social forces of religion
and politics in a formal way.
I mean, history is rife withthe horrors that happen and I
(43:04):
think you have to be incrediblyuninformed, not only about
history but about our ownAnabaptist beliefs, to not see
that problem.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
I have often wondered what the missing link is, and
it's been interesting for mebecause the more I question
church and organized religion,the more I appreciate, actually,
the core tenets of theAnabaptist faith, which I don't
know quite how to make sense ofin my brain.
(43:36):
So that's something I'm activelyworking through.
But I do know that for me thechurch has so undermined its own
credibility that if I hear abunch of religious leaders
recommending option A, I kind ofautomatically assume that
option B or C is probably abetter choice.
I have a really difficult timetrusting anything that I hear
(44:02):
coming from organized religionand it's frightening because
shiny, happy people, tia Levingsfor our daughters, guys, this
is all connected.
It's all connected and it'sconnected into politics and I
don't know what the answer is,but I do know that understanding
(44:26):
the connection has probablymade me the most aware of how
damaging and how corrupt a lotof our religious systems are.
When it's difficult to know thedifference between our
religious systems and thepolitical systems, I think we
should really really step backand reconsider the words of
(44:48):
Jesus and what faith might meanto us.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
So to our listeners watch the video, tell us what
you think, and maybe we shouldhave said this early on.
But if you are concerned aboutbeing triggered or about graphic
descriptions, I didn't findthose in the video.
It's certainly not designed toshock, and I really appreciate
(45:14):
the way they prioritize thevoices of the victims and those
who have gone on to survive andreally become voices for justice
.
So watching the video is goingto be well worth those 30
minutes, and I wanted to alsoput out there a quick public
service announcement.
We know the election is comingup in a few weeks and we're not
(45:39):
going to go into a partisan rant, but I think we do want to
acknowledge that voting involvescomplex, sometimes conflicting
values and decisions, and Ithink it's important to remember
, just in line with ourconversation here,
oversimplifying issues is oftenused as a means of social
(46:00):
control, and so I think it'sworth recognizing the complexity
of the issues and recognizingthat sometimes we might be
conflicted about our vote for awhole range of issues, and I
think that's probably healthierthan approaching it with this
really simplistic way, becausebeing a one-issue voter makes it
really easy for the powers thatbe to control you, and so I
(46:23):
want to urge our listeners outthere.
We believe in you and weencourage you to vote in light
of all the values that areimportant to you, and remember
that your vote is 100% private.
In a general election, you canvote for one party even if you
(46:43):
are registered to another.
Nobody else can tell you who tovote, nobody else can guilt you
into it.
Nobody else knows when you arein the voting booth.
It is up to you, and anyone whoputs pressure on you to vote a
certain way is in violation ofthe way that our system is
supposed to work.
They are the problem, not you.
Please know that your localcounty elections office will
(47:06):
have accurate informationavailable.
Any information that comes frompolitical party should be held
with a certain amount of healthysuspicion skepticism, but if
you go to your county electionsoffice, that office is
nonpartisan.
They will have accurateinformation for you, and in many
places, early voting is alreadystarting.
Certainly, here in Iowa, we canregister to vote through
(47:31):
Election Day I believe it is,but these voting laws change all
the time, and so I think it'sreally important to be informed
about our own local electionlaws, and the local county
elections office is really theplace to go get that information
, and it's high time to make aplan for how to vote, if that is
(47:51):
something you're going to do,so please watch the video,
please tell us what you think.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
We always love to hear from you.
Tell us what you think, wealways love to hear from you.
And until we find our nextlittle pocket of time, take good
care of yourselves and we willtalk to you soon, take care.
(48:20):
Thank you for spending timewith us today.
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
What are your thoughts about college and
recovery from high demandreligion?
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences and we
want to talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atUncoveredbeyond at gmailcom.
That's uncoveredlifebeyond atgmailcom.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode Until
next time.
Speaker 1 (49:03):
Stay brave, stay bold , stay awkward.
This is Rebecca and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path Along the
way, we've uncovered a fewinsights we want to share with
fellow travelers.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up, we are here to cheeryou on and assure you that the
best is yet to come.
Welcome to Uncovered LifeBeyond.
Hello everyone, welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.
(01:08):
This is Naomi.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
And this is Rebecca, so look at us, we are actually
back?
Speaker 1 (01:15):
We are.
We found a little.
What did I call it A fringe?
No, we found a crack, a crackin the day that we could slide
this into.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
And that's about the case.
It is a crack, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Right, right.
How's life for you?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
I feel like I'm always saying it's kicking my
butt, but I think right now itis literally kicking my butt.
I'm not, I'm barely treadingwater between my classes and I
feel like the course load thissemester is really heavy.
The one class it's athree-credit hour and he just
(01:53):
keeps throwing more stuff andmore projects and I'm like, dude
, I mean this is just athree-credit hour class, it's
not that.
Yeah, so yeah, between that andlife and work and all the
things, it's a lot.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
And just jumping around from one thing to the
next.
Right, you're like keeping upwith all the things.
I think is its own energy suckRight.
Energy drain yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Absolutely.
How about?
Speaker 1 (02:22):
you.
Well, same same, you know,flying by the seat of my pants,
and you know, and the thing isthat, well, I was telling you
the other day, like in so manyways things are going great, uh,
like my interpersonal stress isas low as it's been a long time
.
You know, I love the work I'mdoing, but everything's coming
(02:43):
at me like a fire hose and andI'm not I don't know if it's the
weather or what, but mymigraines have been worse and so
, yeah, it's kind of a mixed bagof of of good and flying by the
seat of my pants.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
It's one thing if we're busy and feeling okay, but
it's another thing if you'rebusy and not feeling real well.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Right, well, and it's frustrating to me because it's
not like I'm.
It's not like I'm miserable,it's not like I'm doing things I
don't want to do, or that.
I'm not enjoying the things I'mdoing.
It's not like the stress is allgood stress, but it's still
yeah, like the stress is allgood stress, but it's still yeah
(03:27):
.
One fun thing is that the firstyear students at the college
where I teach are reading TaraWestover's book Educated for
their first year seminar, and soa number of the professors who
are teaching those sections ofthat class are assigning parts
(03:48):
of our podcast.
Shut up that is so exciting.
If any of my students or otherLaura's students are listening,
hey, go do Hawks.
So this past week one of thoseprofessors invited me to come
talk to her class and we had areally good time talking about
(04:11):
the impact of Wisconsin versusYoder on schooling, or the lack
thereof for religious reasons.
You know beyond that, and so Iwas so impressed with some of
the observations that thestudents made and like some of
(04:31):
the connections they made, and Ialso had a picture of
schoolboys in O'Line, iowa, sothat's just a little ways from
here, and there were somestudents who recognized that
it's a very small town inNortheast Iowa and some students
recognize that.
And that was like back in 1965,and they were, you know,
(04:53):
fleeing the truant officers whowere forcing them, persecuting
them by making them go to school.
So yeah, so that was kind of afull circle moment, because
that's not.
I haven't really, you know,integrated these parts of my
lives until the podcast, and sothis is kind of an extension of
that.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
That is so awesome and so validating for you and it
speaks to the person you areand I love that.
And the other thing I thinkthat we forget is man, the kids
these days are smart, like.
They can make connections inways that I don't think I was
making.
I know I wasn't making at theirage and we like to diss the
(05:39):
whole notion of social media andall that and it has its points,
but at the same time I think ithas really brought an awareness
that we were desperatelyneeding in the world.
I agree, I agree.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
So our topic today is about a documentary that came
out recently, and it's a reallyshort one, only 30 minutes long.
I loved it, right right.
It's based on a chapter of thebook Jesus and John Wayne by
Kristen Kobes-Dumé, and itexplores the culture of toxic
(06:22):
power in the church, and itspecifically focuses on scandals
in the Southern BaptistConvention that came to light in
a Houston newspaper expose backin 2019, and the aftermath and
(06:44):
voices of survivors.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
You know, I think that this was such an important
conversation and I'm so gladwe're having it, but I think the
part that always takes me bysurprise is the ways that this
is so connected and for ourlisteners, I think it's really
important that you take the timeto watch this.
(07:09):
Like Naomi said, it's just 30minutes, but it's so informative
and you can't help but notnotice the connections involved
with Tia Loving's book and thatwhole conversation, and also
(07:29):
shiny, happy people, like guys.
These people are all in bedtogether, like it is all
connected and to me it's reallyfrightening.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Yes, absolutely, and the patterns of behavior and of
control are so predictable Likeit's almost boring.
If it weren't so tragic, right,right, it would be boring, for
how predictable they are acrossorganizations and organizations,
(08:01):
religious organizations thatclaim to be the representatives
of God on earth, that claim tobe the one true way.
Right, right, you claim to knowthe will of God.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
They claim to be the one true way, they claim to know
the will of God, but they alsotell us that by staying with
them we'll be protected,especially we, meaning women
will be protected, and thereverse is so true.
That is where we are exploitedthe most.
We are exploited for our labor,we are exploited for everything
(08:39):
, and then also for our Rightand they certainly aren't
protected, certainly aren'tprotected.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And just as a side note, I'mglad you mentioned those other
ways that the exploitationhappens, because I think the
sexual abuse is absolutelyserious, it's absolutely
egregious and also it's not theonly kind, and I think sometimes
the other kinds of abuse themore you know like the spiritual
(09:08):
abuse, the labor exploitation,those kinds of things are
sometimes a little more subtleand maybe more easy to ignore.
And yet it's all a package dealRight in the Christian
nationalist elements.
And the more these kinds ofthings are exposed, the more we
(09:46):
see that they have.
What they've been accusingtheir opponents of is the very
thing they've been doing.
Like.
Again, it's boringlypredictable.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
When it's such a lesson in projection oh right.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
I mean they claim to be the ones protecting women and
children, but they are the onesharming so many women and
children.
I mean, they're the ones who areaccusing the LGBTQ community,
trans kids of all these horrible, horrible things, but they're
(10:21):
the ones who are doing the abuseand protecting the abusers.
And, at the same time, theyaccuse women of being power
hungry for wanting equality inthe church.
They are the ones who claim tobe speaking for God and on top
of all this, it turns out at thetop they aren't actually
(10:43):
anti-abortion.
It's that they want to choosewhich women get abortions and
which ones don't.
And just for an example of that, there was a woman named Debbie
Vasquez, who and she's notmentioned in the documentary,
but this is mentioned in somenews reports about this
situation and this is someonewho was 14, was abused by a
(11:06):
pastor and then, when she becamepregnant and she was forced to
stand in front of thecongregation apologize for
having sex out of wedlock andbecoming pregnant, and then,
behind the scenes, they werepressuring her to have an
abortion.
And so just the layers ofhypocrisy and abuse all
(11:29):
contribute to such a lack ofintegrity on the part of this
major religious institution inour country.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
And I'm always surprised in this type of
situation how often the14-year-old, the 15-year-old, is
demanded to not only repent atchurch but also apologize to the
pastor's wife or the offender'swife.
These girls are 14, 15 yearsold.
(12:02):
I know two situations here inHolmes County where that
happened.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Like it's a way of it's a way it's one dimension of
it is protecting the meninvolved from taking
accountability as adults forstatutory rape.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Right.
But it also sends a broadermessage out to the other people,
to the other women, out to theother people, to the other women
, to the other girls, to theother children to keep your
mouth shut.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Yes, and if you speak up, you're going to be the one
taking the fall.
Right, right, right.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
And I think we are told from infancy to trust and
to respect our spiritual leadersand that they're God-ordained,
and all this other Dogma, dogma,yeah, I was going to say
ideology, but dogma is probablya better, but it's so ingrained
(13:01):
in us and we're told that theyprotect not only us as
individuals, but they protectour souls.
They fight for our souls and sooften it's not a fight for us,
it's not a fight for simply acasualty.
In this fight for power, inthis quest for power and abuse,
(13:30):
victims end up being a casualty.
That is simply a shrug.
It's like well got to take onefor the team.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
To use their own words.
It's a distraction.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
It's not a problem.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
I mean it's not a serious problem and it's
certainly not a problem that'sindicative of larger issues,
right, right, least about theSouthern Baptist Convention,
(14:05):
because for years there had beencalls for them to have some
kind of a database for trackingabusers in the churches so that
they're not moving around fromone church to the next.
And in the report that came outby a third party in 2022, it
turns out that as far back as2008 already, the leaders of the
(14:30):
SBC were refusing to do this,even though they were privately
saying.
These same people wereprivately saying that, yeah,
this could be a really practicalway to stop predators, but they
didn't want to do it becausethey said, well, all our
churches are autonomous, there'sno way we could do this, no way
we could do this, but no way wecould hold local churches
(14:54):
accountable.
But then what came out in 2022is they actually did have a
database, they actually had beentracking abusers all this time
and in no way did they try toreach out and try to protect the
church people, right, thechurch members, the vulnerable
who were at risk of being abused.
(15:14):
No attempt to prosecute thoseabusers, to bring them to
justice or stop them in any way.
I mean essentially, thedatabase was there to protect
them them in any way.
I mean essentially, thedatabase was there to protect
them.
And since then the SBC has justdoubled down.
(15:36):
They are more concerned aboutwomen in leadership.
That is a bigger problem.
They're more concerned aboutthe LGBTQ community.
Those are worse sins to themthan abuse and earlier this
summer at their annualconvention, they did
disaffiliate four churches.
One was about a church that hada woman who was in leadership,
(15:59):
another one had to do withacceptance of LGBTQ folks being
open and affirming, and I thinkone of the churches had to do
with sex offenders.
I mean it was two of them, butthis is who they're lumping
together.
It's so sad and I think it's.
I don't know, do they hearthemselves?
Do they see how much theiractions reveal about what
(16:25):
actually matters to them?
Speaker 2 (16:27):
I think they actually do know.
I just think they're countingon the rest of us not paying
attention.
And I also think my observationhas been there is nothing more
dramatic than when a churchrestores an offender.
It is so easy and so romantic,almost so godly, to side with a
(16:58):
sinner who has repented and towitness this restoration of his
faith and his relationship withGod.
On the flip side, it is somessy and it costs so much to
enter into the pain and thegrief and the devastation of
(17:19):
abuse.
And I think time and again wesee those in power siding with
what's easy, with what is flashyand also what protects them.
Because, if they protect JoeSchmo over here, Joe Schmo is
(17:39):
obligated to protect them in thefuture.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Right right.
It's more about protectingtheir image which they're pretty
open about that and deferringto the most toxic person in the
room, right in the documentarywhere that was happening, where
a young woman who had beenabused by a youth minister who
(18:03):
then went on to this highlysuccessful career in church
ministry, and years later thanwhen her daughter was about that
age, she went, oh my goodness,and she realized just how
egregiously she had beenbetrayed by the people who
should have been looking out forher.
And so when she reached out andwanted to address this, then at
(18:30):
that point that youth ministernow years later, in more senior
positions of leadership he goesup there and, yeah, this whole
thing about his repentance isromanticized.
And then they throw her underthe bus by saying, unfortunately
, this person he had thisrelationship with, no, he
(18:53):
assaulted her that she has notchosen the same path of healing
that he has, and this is howthey talked about her call for
accountability is by throwingher under the bus.
They're not even.
I guess, when people get sodrunk on their own power at a
(19:15):
certain point they don't eventry to hide it anymore.
And, like you said, I thinkthat secondary betrayal, I mean
that's ongoing wounding bygaslighting and scapegoating,
and so many victims have saidthat that goes so much deeper
even than the initial attackbecause of, I mean, that's your
(19:38):
social circle that the humanbody, the human nervous system
relies on for safety, and it'snot, it's further betraying you
and it's an ongoing, it's not aone-time event but it's ongoing
wounding.
But, as you pointed out earlier, it's not just about protecting
the abuser, but it's also aboutbeing a warning to other
(20:01):
potential victims to keep silentif it happens to them cape
dresses.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
This is why we wear a head covering.
This is why we are submissive.
This is why we have a meek andgentle spirit.
This is why we are demure.
All of this will keep you safe.
All of this is for yourprotection.
All of this is for you becausewe care so much about you.
And then, when it doesn't work,it's suggested, or it's as if
(20:41):
obviously you got somethingwrong, and I think that it's a
test that you can never, everstudy hard enough for.
You simply can't get it right,and it turns out that when you
ask the question, who are youprotecting us from?
(21:02):
They like to act like they'reprotecting us from the world.
They aren't protecting us fromthe world, they're protecting us
from themselves and theirbuddies.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
They're protecting their buddies from the world
from being held accountable bythe world.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Right, right, and I think at some point it's only
fair to ask the question why amI doing this?
Why am I looking to people likeyou for my protection?
You want to get in line and youwant to tell us women what we
(21:37):
need to do, but you can't tellyour own buddies to get their
act together called in somechurches.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
It doesn't explicitly say don't believe women and
children who accuse men ofterrible things, but it creates
that power structure where a manwho is accused of terrible
things by those this theologyviews as beneath him is often
given endless benefit of thedoubt, and I think that was
Christian Dumais who said that,and so it doesn't need to be
(22:23):
said explicitly for that to bethe effect of that teaching.
And anybody who doesn't line upwith it is then called immoral
or out of line, or not listeningto God, out of God's will.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
And I think in the process, then even well-meaning
parents get themselves stuckbetween wanting to speak up and
protect their kids while alsorisking both themselves and
their family and their childrenfrom becoming cast out and
making the situation even worseand I think we all know that a
(23:02):
lot of these settings, theseinstitutions, they need a
scapegoat.
They need someone that everyonecan see who's not getting it
right, and no one wants to bethat person.
No one wants their kids to bethat person, right?
Speaker 1 (23:20):
And, yes, it puts well-meaning parents in an awful
double bind, right, right, andI think it also does a secondary
betrayal of, well, of course,other vulnerable people who are
going to be hurt by the system,but also there's an element of
betrayal of people who aregenuinely well-meaning, upright
(23:41):
people who want to do the rightthing, who think that by
following the rules, they'redoing the right thing, and yet
Well and oftentimes.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Oftentimes, it's people who actually take the
Bible seriously, right, right,it's people who are studying the
Bible and the words of Jesusand who are taking it seriously,
right, and I think that's thepart that gets so messed up,
because these same leaders willcome back and say, well, these
people weren't true Christians.
No, these people were payingattention.
(24:12):
Yeah right, oftentimes thesepeople were the ones who were
paying attention.
These were the ones who werefollowing the rules and who
sincerely wanted to follow Jesus.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Right and their sincerity is being used as a
like a smoke screen for acorrupt system.
Yeah, it's maddening and nowwe're getting out into like kind
of secondary, tertiary kinds ofdynamics here.
But then I think of people whofeel so much grief over the fact
(24:42):
that I'm no longer in a plaincommunity and there's a part of
me that really wants to cushionthem from that grief.
And part of the way to cushionthem from that grief is to
implicitly endorse thesereligious systems.
And yet I can't endorse thesesystems that are so corrupt and
that are so abusive and harmfuland have zero integrity.
(25:07):
And not to make this all aboutme, but I think I'm not alone in
this wanting to shield peoplewho are sincerely grieved that
I'm no longer part of the system, while also being true to
myself and getting out of atoxic situation.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
And I think that is maybe one of the most difficult
things of.
I was going to first sayleaving, but I'm not sure it's
leaving as much asdeconstruction.
I have a theory that pastorsare more angry at people who
deconstruct than they are atpeople who leave their church,
and it is easier to work withpeople who jump from church to
church but never makefundamental changes.
(25:54):
They might change on theoutside, their covering shape
might change or, you know, theymight now wear skirts instead of
cape dresses or whores, theymight wear pants, you know.
Whatever, whatever, there mightbe some outward changes.
But deconstruction, doneproperly, changes the way you
(26:16):
think, the way you view theworld, and it challenges some of
those fundamental quote truthswe've been taught.
That, I believe, is what scaresreligious leaders the most.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Oh yeah, they'd much rather someone makes those
superficial changes or goes outand totally messes up their
lives.
Right, right, totally succumbsto addictions and all kinds of
horrible self-sabotagingbehaviors.
They have a box for that theyhave a sin will take you further
(26:50):
than you wanted to go line forthat.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
They have something for those people, they have a
narrative.
But for the person whodeconstructs and says wait, wait
, wait, what you're doing is notokay, it goes against the words
of Jesus, not okay and startsto seriously poke at some of
those holes and then turnsaround and actually advocates
(27:15):
helps the marginalized, thesingle mom, the immigrant Now
that will piss off a pastor.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yeah, the worst news is someone who knows the
scriptures, who is deep into itand then dares to have an
independent thought and beginsto question the dogma.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
And I think what's so hard is I all of a sudden came
to the realization that it's notjust a bug or a few rotten
apples.
At some level this whole systemis rotten.
I thought when I was in theMennonite church in the
Anabaptist world that it was anAnabaptist or an Amish Mennonite
(27:57):
law.
It was something rotten intheir system.
And then, darn it.
I get out of the culture andinto a mega church and I see the
same things happening.
It's like crap.
I recognize these patterns.
I get into a more liberalMennonite church and I'm like,
well shoot, they think like thebeachy Mennonite people.
(28:18):
And I'm like, well shoot, theystill think like the Amish.
Or they think like the beachyMennonite people, they just
don't dress like they do.
They've got the same stuffgoing on.
They've got the same abusersitting in their church pews and
they do nothing about it.
And all of a sudden I had tocome to the realization that
this is not specific on areligion or a denomination.
(28:42):
It's a systemic issue in theway institutions are organized,
and I think religiousorganizations tend to be the
most harmful because they haveJesus on their side.
It gives them extra leverage,it gives them extra power.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Absolutely, and it's, instead of this being an
exception, or yeah, we're allthere's, there's, we're all
human, or or whatever thethought stopping cliche might be
it begin, you begin to see thatit's.
It's not a bug, it's a feature,right.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
This is how it's supposed to work.
Right?
It's a.
It's a.
It's one of the building blocksof the organization.
It's what holds theorganization together.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Another thing that I thought was really telling was
the responses of some of theleaders in the Southern Baptist
Convention in the years sincethis came out.
The report came out in 2022,and their line, their central
(29:45):
talking point, has been oh, thisis a distraction from our core
message, which is evangelism.
Now there have been people whosay, oh no, those quotes are
being taken out of context andblah, blah, blah blah.
But when we understand thatevangelism is code for
(30:06):
recruitment, that is recruitmentin a war, in a culture war in a
spiritual war that once morereveals this is all about power.
What is important to them is thecontinual building of power,
the building of theirinstitution, the building of
their empire, not dealing withthe people that they claim to
(30:31):
care for.
And one survivor tweeted inresponse.
Thank you for exposing yourheart by referring to us as a
distraction.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Yep.
So I was in a conversation witha friend and the friend was
telling me that local churchesprefer to go overseas for
missions instead of locallybecause they get more bang for
their buck.
They can reach more peopleoverseas, you see, than they can
by helping the single mother,so it's more bang for their buck
(31:03):
.
And I looked at her and I saidhas your pastor ever read the
parable of the lost sheep?
Has your pastor ever read theparable of the good Samaritan?
Our churches gain power andfunding by stepping over the
abuse victim, by stepping overthe single mom, by stepping over
(31:26):
the obvious needs, exactly bystepping over the immigrant on
their way to the airport fortheir next mission trip, for
their next conference, for theirnext, whatever it is.
We step over, we don't crossthe street anymore.
I think there was a point intime where seeing someone's pain
(31:48):
might have forced you to crossthe street, so you didn't have
to be up close to it.
These days, we are so callousto it that we see our pastors
literally stepping over thevictim in order to move on to
the next big thing.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
And the victim's lucky if they don't get kicked
in the process Right.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
And I just don't understand how we're supposed to
reconcile this with the goodnews, supposed to reconcile this
with the good news.
I'm not sure how we're supposedto reconcile this with the life
of Jesus.
I don't understand how Sundaymorning after Sunday morning,
(32:30):
people go to church and don'tstruggle with these
disconnections.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yeah, the complete lack of integrity.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Yeah, how did we get here?
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Right, right and in the documentary what happened?
Again and again, as womenbrought these issues to light,
they were attacked as attackingthe cause of Christ and again.
So the cause of Christ is aboutignoring abuse.
I mean, have they read theirBibles?
(33:03):
And have they read their Bibles?
Yes, and how do you sit inchurch week after week and
observe this disconnect?
I think to me like it's such anexample of how we should
automatically be suspicious whenguilt and shame are used as
motivations, because how manypeople are in those church pews
(33:26):
because they have been guiltedor shamed into showing up for
church and they're there withgritted teeth.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
But there's also many who are there because it's
comfortable, sure, sure, there'smany who are there because
their family is there, theirextended family is there, their
social group is there, and theyclutch their Kate Spade purse
just a little tighter if there'san immigrant who doesn't
understand the language issitting beside them and I have a
(33:58):
Kate Spade purse.
So, in all fairness, I've gotKate Spade purse.
So, in all fairness, I've gotKate Spade too.
So that's why I use Kate Spade.
But anyone different, anyonewho is messy or has pain,
disrupts that comfort.
And I don't mean this as abroad stroke, but I often wonder
how many people go to churchfor their comfort.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Oh, I agree.
End of story.
I agree, yeah, that's very muchpresent too, I agree.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
And I know.
I know I have friends who go tochurch and it's more than that
for them.
So I know I'm not speaking foreverybody, but I do wonder.
What percentage sits in the pewSunday after Sunday?
And it has little to do aboutliving the life and the words of
(34:54):
Jesus and it has much more todo with what benefits them.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Right, and I think what is so important to remember
is that toxic systems rely onnon-toxic people being complicit
in wrongdoing, in looking theother way, in assuming the best
about those in leadership, aboutletting the thoughts stopping
(35:24):
cliches do their work.
Most toxic systems are made upof pretty good people, right.
People who are generallyupstanding, who want to be
decent and who don't rock theboat, right?
Because they trust the Lord'sanointed who don't rock the boat
Right Because they trust theLord's anointed.
Well, I think there's like awhole range of reasons why they
(35:47):
don't rock the boat.
Sometimes it's because of thatlike kind of naivete, kind of
naive buy-in to the dogma.
Sometimes they've been guiltedand shamed into going along with
the status quo.
Sometimes they are just tryingto survive and they don't have
the bandwidth to speak up.
(36:08):
I mean I guess I'm just sayinglike there are so many ways that
and reasons and reasons.
I mean I go to dollar tree.
Dollar tree is part of a toxiccapitalist system that is
harming the earth, it's harmingpeople, it is harming so many
(36:28):
people and I still go by thatcrap I, I buy that crap,
nobody's making me, nobody'smaking me and I do right.
So I guess I'm just saying toxicsystems.
What am I saying?
I'm wanting to say severalthings at once.
One of the things I think it'simportant for us to recognize
there are good people in toxicsystems and those good people
(36:50):
are a necessary ingredient forkeeping the system going.
They're an important part of it.
And also there are a variety ofmotivations for staying in a
system like that.
And also, if all thosenon-toxic folks in a toxic
system were to collectively pushback, we could change things.
(37:14):
One person working alone can'tchange things, but working
together we could.
But there are all kinds ofinstitutional barriers that are
put up to prevent that, or atleast to make it difficult, so
it's just messy.
That's where I'm ultimatelygoing with this line of thought.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
No, and I think it's messy.
But I also think your point isvery fair and very true, and I
guess that brings me back to myquestion of what the heck do we
do?
Like what do we do, and I thinkI would also like to point out
these toxic systems are oftenbuilt around charismatic leaders
who have this perceived specialquality that sets them apart
(37:57):
from everyone else.
And I think that's where Icringe about the whole Lord's
anointed bullcrap.
I struggle when I hear that theLord's anointed is once again
hiding abuse or overlooking thesingle mom who desperately needs
help.
If that's what the Lord'sanointed is doing again, why do
(38:22):
I want a part of that?
Your version of Jesus is prettywatered down and it pretty
easily can make your God lookreally, really bad, and I don't
understand why we're not moreaware and conscious of that.
(38:43):
What kind of a God are wetrying to sell?
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Yeah, it's a God that is based more on conquest.
Yeah, it's based on conquest,yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
And I get frustrated when people tell me that it is
imperfect people doing God'swork, because, while that is
certainly true when the best ofGod's people are not simply
doing imperfect work butdamaging work, harmful, work,
corrupt work, and doubling downon it when they're called out.
(39:16):
And doubling down on it whenthey're called out.
What do you have to offer thatthe world doesn't have?
Speaker 1 (39:23):
Yeah, yeah, and I would say this is why the pews
are emptying.
Yeah, this is why the pews areemptying.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
I think so too, and I worry about what this is going
to do long term, because I don'tthink these religious systems
ever imagined what the world ofsocial media, what TikTok, is
going to do to theirorganizations and the way
they're going to be exposed.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Right, it's like they never imagined that the verse
they love to quote about thethings of darkness being exposed
yeah, there's a verse aboutthat.
Yes, there is.
It's escaping me, you know.
That would be turned on them,right, it would be speaking of
them.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
It's almost like they thought they could convince
their people that God waswatching them and their works
and their thoughts and theiractions, even in secret, but
somehow they forgot that thesame God was watching them and
keeping a tally of their stuff.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
It's almost as though God was made in their own image
.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
And I think these leaders think that not only God
will forget, but that theirpeople will forget.
And if there are any leaderslistening, trust me on this when
I say your abuse victims willnever forget how you treated
them or didn't treat them.
Your abuse victims will neverforget.
(40:57):
Your abuse victims will neverforget.
There's a pastor who keepsshowing up on my feed every so
often.
We have mutual friends andevery time his picture shows up
I just get a little green inside.
We remember.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Yeah, yeah.
And one connection thedocumentary makes is about the
dark side of marrying faith andpolitics.
And this is nothing new.
This is something right, that'sbeen around for millennia.
But I think no one should beclearer about what's at stake,
(41:34):
why this is a problem, thanthose who've identified as
Anabaptists, those who arefamiliar with the Anabaptist
tradition.
You know, as we've been talkingabout here, the American church
is running in the oppositedirection from its own teachings
, right, while also claiming topractice the Bible, literally
(41:55):
Right, and they are moreconcerned about gaining power
than they are about theteachings of Jesus.
And it blows my mind sometimeshow blatantly they do this
without more people calling themon it, except I guess people
are just voting with their feetand leaving.
Think, those of us who have anAnabaptist background, whether
(42:19):
or not we still identify withthe tradition or not, certainly
have access to a tradition, toour way of thinking about why
connecting religion and politicscan be such a problem and why
this is something that thinkingpeople should avoid, like people
(42:42):
who care about humanity shouldavoid this.
People who know what happens inhistory, what has happened in
history when we have marriedthose social forces of religion
and politics in a formal way.
I mean, history is rife withthe horrors that happen and I
(43:04):
think you have to be incrediblyuninformed, not only about
history but about our ownAnabaptist beliefs, to not see
that problem.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
I have often wondered what the missing link is, and
it's been interesting for mebecause the more I question
church and organized religion,the more I appreciate, actually,
the core tenets of theAnabaptist faith, which I don't
know quite how to make sense ofin my brain.
(43:36):
So that's something I'm activelyworking through.
But I do know that for me thechurch has so undermined its own
credibility that if I hear abunch of religious leaders
recommending option A, I kind ofautomatically assume that
option B or C is probably abetter choice.
I have a really difficult timetrusting anything that I hear
(44:02):
coming from organized religionand it's frightening because
shiny, happy people, tia Levingsfor our daughters, guys, this
is all connected.
It's all connected and it'sconnected into politics and I
don't know what the answer is,but I do know that understanding
(44:26):
the connection has probablymade me the most aware of how
damaging and how corrupt a lotof our religious systems are.
When it's difficult to know thedifference between our
religious systems and thepolitical systems, I think we
should really really step backand reconsider the words of
(44:48):
Jesus and what faith might meanto us.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
So to our listeners watch the video, tell us what
you think, and maybe we shouldhave said this early on.
But if you are concerned aboutbeing triggered or about graphic
descriptions, I didn't findthose in the video.
It's certainly not designed toshock, and I really appreciate
(45:14):
the way they prioritize thevoices of the victims and those
who have gone on to survive andreally become voices for justice
.
So watching the video is goingto be well worth those 30
minutes, and I wanted to alsoput out there a quick public
service announcement.
We know the election is comingup in a few weeks and we're not
(45:39):
going to go into a partisan rant, but I think we do want to
acknowledge that voting involvescomplex, sometimes conflicting
values and decisions, and Ithink it's important to remember
, just in line with ourconversation here,
oversimplifying issues is oftenused as a means of social
(46:00):
control, and so I think it'sworth recognizing the complexity
of the issues and recognizingthat sometimes we might be
conflicted about our vote for awhole range of issues, and I
think that's probably healthierthan approaching it with this
really simplistic way, becausebeing a one-issue voter makes it
really easy for the powers thatbe to control you, and so I
(46:23):
want to urge our listeners outthere.
We believe in you and weencourage you to vote in light
of all the values that areimportant to you, and remember
that your vote is 100% private.
In a general election, you canvote for one party even if you
(46:43):
are registered to another.
Nobody else can tell you who tovote, nobody else can guilt you
into it.
Nobody else knows when you arein the voting booth.
It is up to you, and anyone whoputs pressure on you to vote a
certain way is in violation ofthe way that our system is
supposed to work.
They are the problem, not you.
Please know that your localcounty elections office will
(47:06):
have accurate informationavailable.
Any information that comes frompolitical party should be held
with a certain amount of healthysuspicion skepticism, but if
you go to your county electionsoffice, that office is
nonpartisan.
They will have accurateinformation for you, and in many
places, early voting is alreadystarting.
Certainly, here in Iowa, we canregister to vote through
(47:31):
Election Day I believe it is,but these voting laws change all
the time, and so I think it'sreally important to be informed
about our own local electionlaws, and the local county
elections office is really theplace to go get that information
, and it's high time to make aplan for how to vote, if that is
(47:51):
something you're going to do,so please watch the video,
please tell us what you think.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
We always love to hear from you.
Tell us what you think, wealways love to hear from you.
And until we find our nextlittle pocket of time, take good
care of yourselves and we willtalk to you soon, take care.
(48:20):
Thank you for spending timewith us today.
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
What are your thoughts about college and
recovery from high demandreligion?
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences and we
want to talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atUncoveredbeyond at gmailcom.
That's uncoveredlifebeyond atgmailcom.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode Until
next time.
Speaker 1 (49:03):
Stay brave, stay bold , stay awkward.
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