November 3, 2024 • 71 mins
If you've had any exposure at all to evangelical cinema over the past decade, it's almost certain that you're familiar with the film God's Not Dead and maybe even the sequels it has spawned. Recently we (Naomi and Rebecca) watched it for the first time. Unsurprisingly, we have thoughts which we share in this episode.
First of all, we are very curious about the fever dream that must have inspired the antagonistic atheist professor's character; in all our years on college campuses, we've seen--and heard of--nothing remotely like the events that transpire in his classroom. From implausible story lines and cartoonish villains to racist depictions of non-white characters, it's a pastiche of what some conservative Christian filmmaker imagined is the social martyrdom any "true Christian" faces in higher education.
Unlike the fantastical two-dimensional characters in this film, we discuss the range of personalities and beliefs we've found in both college campuses and church communities. Ultimately, we conclude that the film reflects precious little about the realities of American college classrooms while unintentionally telling us much more about the dogmatism of the filmmakers.
Links to Sources and Resources
God's Not Dead (2014) - IMDb
God’s Not Dead: A Brief Review and Analysis
Did an Atheist Professor Test God by Dropping a Breakable Object? | Snopes.com
The Artist's Way: 30th Anniversary Edition by Julia Cameron
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
This is Rebecca and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path Along the
way, we've uncovered a fewinsights we want to share with
fellow travelers.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up, we are here to cheeryou on and assure you that the
best is yet to come.
Welcome to Uncovered LifeBeyond.
Hello everyone, Welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
This is Naomi and this is Rebecca, it's been a hot
minute, hasn't it?
It has, so what's coming at you?
Speaker 1 (01:16):
these days.
Right now we're having our fallbreak, so it's two days, so
Monday, tuesday, so that means Ihave my Tuesday of classes this
week, and so I have a long list.
I've got like 10 different waysI could spend this time, I'm
sure, catching up on things athome, catching up on things at
work, catching up just on allthe things.
(01:39):
But last night got togetherwith some friends and we stayed
up till way too late chattingand just catching up, because
it's been so long since we'vebeen able to get together.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
That's exactly as it should be, though.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Well, yeah, yeah, exactly, and it shouldn't have
to wait till fall break, like itshould be something we could do
during normal times, but anyway.
So I'm a little bit sleepdeprived and I overindulged in
cheesecake last night, but youknow, it's all good, it was
(02:13):
worth it.
It was worth it.
How about you?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah, pretty much same.
I always forget that this timeof the year is busy.
I mean, of course it is.
This is when Holmes County hasthe peak tourist season, so at
work.
We're the busiest and I guessonline classes at my college
don't get fall break, Like it isunacknowledged in all my
(02:37):
classes, which absolutely-.
The injustice, exactly.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Like seriously.
I mean, in my experienceprofessors need the break as
much as students do.
Like what I, I?
I don't understand the logicthere, but I don't know.
We got some hard liners here Iguess, and I, yeah, I don't
understand the logic of a lot ofonline education.
I'll just say I don't either.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
I don't either.
Um plus, I am getting ready formy big open house that I do
every year.
And you know, because I don'tget fall break doesn't mean my
kids don't get fall break.
So my kids have been home,which is wonderful, but it also
means you know extra cooking andall the stuff and you want to
spend time with.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Right.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
And then Chase is in soccer tournaments, which is
amazing, and they're doing well.
But yeah, so it's just a lot ofgood stuff, it's good stuff,
but, like I know this, why am Itaking as many classes as I am?
Yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Everything everywhere all at once.
Well, and you know what?
Here's the thing I think it'sworth mentioning too.
While it is totally legit to bea college student in midlife,
if you're doing it alongside allthe other responsibilities and
realities of midlife, that's notwhat the education system was
(03:56):
built for, like it was notdesigned for that, and so you're
trying to do the work of likethree or four people.
So props to you.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
I think, unfortunately, this notion of a
stay-at-home mom is this ideathat I don't know.
She spends an hour every daycooking and doing laundry and
cleaning up the house, and thenmaybe an hour getting kids ready
for school and home from school, and the rest is free time.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
So if she quote picks up a part-time job, or if she
quote you know, does whatever,well, she's got all that free
time, like, come on, it'll befine.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
And when she does that, none of her
responsibilities that take twohours a day at all decrease.
Yeah, those stay.
That tend to stay the same andI don't think for the most part,
it's because of any ill intenton anyone's part, but I think
(05:03):
that's how our system staysalive and at the end of the day,
we all want wives, and I saythat I mean yesterday Matt went
and got groceries.
Matt does an amazing job, hehelps too, but a lot of the
mental labor stays the same.
Right, right, a lot of movingparts stays the same, and I can
(05:32):
criticize myself for havingallowed it to take me this long
to get through school, but atthe same time I'm like I
probably wouldn't criticize afriend of mine for the same
process.
So just let it be.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
It's okay.
Right, well, it's a boo to thesystem, not to you.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Right, right yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
So tell us what we're going to talk about today.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Well, this is something we've kicked around, I
think, for a long time.
The movie God's Not Dead is onethat's kind of been on the
periphery of my radar, but I'venever watched it until this
weekend.
But it was the kind of thingthat I saw in my newsfeed, you
know, back when it came out in2014.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
And just hearing the premise told me that it was a
movie about what some people whohad never been to college
imagined college to be like whatsome people who had never been
to college, imagined college tobe like yeah, so Naomi has
brought up the idea of uswatching and then talking about
God's Not Dead several times.
(06:33):
And I kept trying to dodge thebullet.
And last night, while I waswatching it, matt came in and he
started watching it with me andhe's like why exactly are you
watching this and what exactlyare you going to talk about?
And I'm like I'm like Naomi'strying to punish me, that's all
I know oh, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
I'm so sorry.
You know what?
I?
I tried to talk Dave, myboyfriend, into watching it with
me.
The most I could get wasgetting him to watch the trailer
and that's all he needed to see.
And he's like it's going to be80 degrees.
I got to go birding.
But here's the thing.
I think this, even though thisis clearly a problematic film, I
(07:20):
think it would not hurtprofessors, faculty people in
higher education, people workingin higher education who are
working with students from thesekinds of backgrounds, from
conservative Christianbackgrounds, to listen to the
film, to understand theperspective that students are
(07:42):
coming in with, because I thinkthere is a giant mismatch in
expectations and I think that'swhat we want to talk about here
today, because the film portrayscollege kind of in the way our
worst fears, the way we saw itin our worst fears, imagined it.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Right.
This was why we were told youprobably shouldn't go to college
, because the end goal of highereducation was precisely what
the professor projected.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Right, right.
So maybe to get us started,I'll read a synopsis of the film
that I read, just in caseanybody who's listening hasn't
seen it.
There's going to be spoilers,so if that matters to you, go
watch it first.
But on the other hand, you canjust listen to us and we can
save you the two hours it takesto watch the film.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
We are much more fun than the film was.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
So I found a synopsis on a blog and I'll link it in
the show notes.
I don't have any knowledge ofthe writer of this blog, so this
is not an endorsement.
I thought the synopsis did apretty good job, and so that's
the only reason that I'mreferencing this.
I just don't want tounknowingly endorse something
(09:03):
that's problematic, right?
Okay, so here's the synopsis.
If you have as many evangelicalfriends as I do, it is not
unlikely that at some point inthe last year or two, you
received a text message thatsimply reads God's not dead.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
The reason for.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Did you?
I heard about them.
I heard about them, but Ididn't get one.
I guess.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Matt said the same thing and I'm like I got so many
.
How can?
Speaker 1 (09:27):
you not have gotten any.
I guess they knew I was beyondhope.
Maybe that's why.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
And to be fair.
To be fair, if anyone listening, send it to me.
I know it was done with loveand absolutely just being caught
up in the moment.
I don't want to shame you.
I feel kind of bad now, but Idid maybe have a small.
Well, I actually got quite afew.
(09:53):
Yeah, discuss later why I thinkthis is such, why it was such a
bad idea.
Okay, um come on.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
This was a publicity stunt, but anyway, move on, and
a very effective, very effectiveand very profitable one.
I think the movie had like twomillion dollars for a budget and
it grew, or it it gross nettedit made like 64 million.
So somebody got very rich offof this.
Okay, so the reason for thesetext messages is the recent
(10:33):
movie God's Not Dead.
At the end of the movie, thefilm going audience is told by
renowned Christian thinker andstar of Duck Dynasty, willie
Robertson, to text their friendsthat God's not dead.
It is the fitting capstone to amovie which is little more than
every Christian apologist'sgreatest fantasy committed to
film.
Here's the movie's basic plot.
(10:54):
A freshman college studentenrolls in a philosophy class.
The professor is a virulentatheist who, on the first day of
class, immediately implores thestudents to accept a fact that
all his sophomore studentsalready have there is no God.
He asks the students to writedown three words God is dead.
Of course, our freshmanprotagonist refuses to do so on
(11:17):
the grounds that he's aChristian.
The professor then tells thestudent that he will have to
defend the existence of God.
So basically, the rest of thefilm is devoted to him seeking
out defenses for the proof ofGod, and it all culminates in a
final showdown between thestudent and the professor.
The film ends with spoileralert the professor accepting
Jesus on his pavement deathbedafter being hit by a car.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
It was so, it was so ridiculous, was so angry.
Sorry, continue.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Well, and I think one way to kind of understand the
structure of the film is I heardit compared to like a Christian
version of Love Actually or Iforget what the other film was.
It was compared to like whereit was kind of multiple
storylines that were threadedtogether and eventually
everything comes together.
And I think our greatestinterest is, of course, is the
(12:08):
main one the professor, becauseof the misconceptions, all the
ways that higher education ismisrepresented in the film, and
there's just so much to talkabout, so many layers to talk
about, and I thought it would beinteresting to go through here
and just talk about what are thethings that it got wrong about?
Higher education?
(12:29):
Because these were therepresentations of college so
many of us had before startingcollege.
Like if we would have seen thiswhen we were young, we would
not have blinked.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
I don't think and it would have affirmed that, yeah,
college probably isn't for us.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
College is not a good idea.
It'd be a waste of time.
Why would you go put yourselfunder that kind of ungodly
influence?
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Right yeah, willingly , and while Josh, bless his
heart, can fight this battle,what if I'm not as smart as Josh
is?
Speaker 1 (13:03):
And.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
I think it also creates this unrealistic
expectation that when wedisagree with someone, there has
to be this winner and loser.
What happened to just havingconversations and being like?
I'm not sure if I agree withthat.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Right, because that's one of the wonderful things
about a college experience ishearing people talk through
their perspectives and there'sno sense that anyone has to
agree and I can just say, likethese questions that the
professor in this story is sohung up on are just not
(13:46):
interesting questions to mostprofessors I know, to any
professors I know.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Well, and legally, I don't think a professor would be
allowed to demand that hisstudents do this.
And when I was watching it, Iwas taking notes as I watched
and I just wrote wait, is thiswhat people think a professor is
?
I was trying to imagine myselfas an 18-year-old who dreamt
(14:13):
about college but had no chanceof going.
Is that what I imagined aprofessor to be?
And I think I kind of did yeah,yeah.
And I think I kind of did yeah,yeah.
And so much of what he didwouldn't have been legal or
wouldn't be legal.
No, from my experience, it'sthe Christian professors who
(14:37):
have treated me like this andhave treated classmates like
this classmates like this.
Now, granted, I probably hadChristian professors who weren't
like that but I'm sure I hadatheist professors who weren't
like that as well but in myexperience, it was the openly
Christian professors who wouldhave approached the classroom
(14:59):
with this type of energy, and Iwould never consider writing a
movie saying that this is howChristian professors act Like
why would I?
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Yeah, yeah, well, and also, you know, I guess I was a
little bit surprised that therewasn't more to talk about in
the film.
Like I thought we were going tocome away with a long list of
here's, all the things they gotwrong about higher education,
and the list was pretty shortjust because they made the same
mistakes again and again, andagain, right, right, and it
(15:33):
boils down to the the atheistprofessor is a complete a-hole.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
He's a jerk.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
He is a bully, he's dogmatic, he is cruel, he is
just a horrible person.
He's mean to his girlfriend,yes, yes, both in the classroom
and in his private life, andit's just this.
It's so one note.
It's so one note.
And there are a wholeprofessors.
(16:04):
There are professors who arejerks, like that is undeniable.
But it was one note and thatwas it Right.
Yeah, and the movie just keptmaking that point again and
again, and again.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Right, couldn't, I guess.
I wonder if it had beenpossible for them to have and
show an atheist who was actuallykind.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
But then that would poke holes in their own logic.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Right, right and eventually we get there.
And to me that is really sadbecause it made me feel a bit
defensive for my atheist friends, because atheist does not
equate a-holes.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Right, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Any more than Christian equates a-holes.
You got some in both.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
That's right, absolutely, and maybe we should
just say here for the sake ofanyone who hasn't Absolutely,
and maybe we should just sayhere for the sake of anyone who
hasn't read it, that so, likesome of the things that are
happening, early on we have thisfreshman, josh, who is
enrolling in classes.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
And he's warned.
He's warned not to take thisclass.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Okay, Would not happen.
That does not happen.
So, first of all, like if yougo to the, I mean maybe back in
2014,.
No, even back in 2014,.
Registration was not takingplace outside under the leaves,
under the trees, and even Iremember registering for classes
(17:39):
back before, when we were stilldoing it on slips of paper, but
like you would get your advisorto sign off on it and then you
take it to the registrar'soffice and they would type in
the stuff and off you go.
Like you didn't get an advisingsession from the registrar and
right and every situation I meanevery institution does it
differently, but I just yeah, bythis by 2014.
(18:03):
This is all happening online andnot yes conversations yeah,
also the humanities requirementthey said it with like it has
all the gravitas of um, uh, youknow, um, the rocket science or
or, or neuroscience or somethingreally specialized.
And I'm sorry, like speaking asa humanities professor, we
(18:24):
certainly feel like we feel verysorry for ourselves because we
perceive ourselves to be at thebottom of the hierarchy when it
comes to who gets respect on acollege campus.
And I am sure that I'm surewe're not actually, or I'm sure
we are blind to those who arefurther down in the hierarchy.
(18:47):
But I guess, when it comes to Imean, even on most small
liberal arts campuses where youwould think you would expect the
humanities to be most valued,you're lucky if you get lip
service to the value of thehumanities, much less actual
material support.
I mean, in a lot ofinstitutions they are weeding
(19:11):
out their human.
It's a shame.
It's a shame.
I think it's a huge, hugemistake but they are weeding out
their humanities departments asfast as they can.
And look in your own experiencehow many humanities classes
have you had?
Look in your own experience,like, how many humanities
classes have you had?
Like history.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
English literature, philosophy, art, appreciation.
I'm laughing because it's beeneight years or seven years or
how many years I don't know, butI've had quite a few.
You have, okay, I have.
And the thing is, I was goingto say this later, but it kind
of made me sad that they pickeda philosophy class to do this
(19:53):
with, because philosophy isfascinating, but the part of
philosophy that is so corrupt isthe masculine patriarchal roots
.
Yes, and that was neveracknowledged.
In fact, when I took philosophy, I was surprised at how much
(20:19):
philosophy and scripture kind ofrelated to each other and
scripture kind of related toeach other.
And if I would want to go toschool for another 10 years, I'd
probably become a philosophymajor, Like it really is
fascinating, like it's a classwhere you can ask all the
questions, think all thethoughts and you don't have to
(20:40):
come to a conclusion.
Yes, and you can come tomultiple conclusions and it's
okay.
Right, and regrettably to me,the movie never mentioned some
of the atrocious roots involvedin philosophy as being
(21:00):
problematic.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Right, well, and I like what you said about the
relationship between religionand philosophy, because, yeah,
you can't deny how intertwinedthey are.
I mean, and I think it's kindof a chicken and egg situation,
like how much of religion orreligious thought, religious
doctrine, came from philosophy,came from Plato and vice versa.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
And even when you think about the allegory of the
cave.
The entire time we werestudying that, I kept thinking
about the verse.
Now we see through a glass.
Darkly, darkly, yeah, like.
There's so many hints andsuggestions and references, and
I think the fact that I know myBible as well as I do made it
(21:47):
even more interesting.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Yes, I agree, I agree .
Speaker 2 (21:52):
So I want to emphasize the point that we
should not be afraid ofphilosophy.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yes, and if you do run across a dogmatic professor,
it might be a professor who'sdogmatic about no, that's not
what this professor, that whatthis thinker is saying.
Like it may be, they might bedogmatic about interpreting a
text or interpreting a thinker,but like they're not certainly
in a first year seminar courseor first year or freshman.
(22:21):
They're there to learn here's,here's what Plato thought,
here's what Aristotle thought,here's what Augustine thought.
Here's like.
I mean so, did you watch?
Little Sheldon, yes.
Young Sheldon, yes, we're.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Young Sheldon, young Sheldon.
Why did they come up withLittle Sheldon?
Yeah, did you watch?
Did you watch Young Sheldon?
Yeah, so I had to laugh at theway in his first philosophy
class it absolutely screwed uphis head because he was so used
to absolutes, and his professordid a fabulous job of being like
(22:59):
who knows, but then, if I'mremembering correctly, she
pointed out the fact that thisis the exact reason you should
continue studying.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Yeah, there's more to learn and I'm going to suggest.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
This is why we need people who deconstruct and we
need people who keep asking thequestions.
We need people who challengewhat we quote know, because we
don't know everything and lifeis a question.
And can we be okay in that,Right?
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Yeah, when you get to that part of it, you're going
to love it.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
I can't wait.
Yeah, barrett and I arewatching it evening One TV show
we found that we both enjoy.
I love you, sheldon.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Love it.
It's our one one TV show wefound that we both enjoy, so I
love you on Sheldon.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Yeah, it's great.
So oh, and before we move ontoo far, from the beginning, one
of the opening scenes of thefilm had the, the professor,
introducing this list of namesof great thinkers.
And you know there was, it waskind of the list of typical
suspects, and then in thereamong them was Ayn Rand, and
(24:11):
like boy that did if, ifanything tipped off.
This is a film of propaganda.
It is that Ayn Rand, likeacademics do not give a hoot
about Ayn Rand.
She was so rigid and black andwhite in her thinking the only
people capitalists are the onlyones who take her seriously.
(24:35):
In fact, in her biography Iremember reading about how she
was really wanting to beaccepted by academics and when
someone did kind of try to bringher like to an academic
conference and where she could,she was so offended by being
challenged, which that's thewhole point of academic
(24:55):
conferences is to havediscussion and to present ideas
and then have people askquestions and discuss it.
And she was so offended thather ideas were not just
wholesale accepted that shestormed out and thinking they
were all just turning on her.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Right, she had to take it personally.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
You took it personally, doesn't?
Speaker 2 (25:15):
that sound familiar.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Yeah.
So once we get past that longlist of quote unquote towering
intellects, there's another linethat I have here in my notes
where this pompous professorsays I'd have to empower them.
And I don't remember.
I wish I remembered thespecific context of this, but it
(25:40):
was something about.
To me, that line was very clearthat this is a.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
This professor is trying to disempower students
well, he made the comment thathe said in this class there's
one god, and that's me.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Oh my god yeah, oh my gosh, I can't.
Oh, and it's so cartoonish,like seriously.
Did they think anybody wasgoing to take this seriously?
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Yeah, and the one part and I think this line was
in the first part of the scenewhere he had this argument in
class and the professor saidfine, you're going to have 20
minutes to teach the next threeclasses and prove your point.
So Josh's girlfriend gets windof this and, of course, she's
(26:35):
the cute little blonde.
They've been dating for sixyears and, spoiler alert she's
angry with him because shethinks this is going to damage
their future in some way.
And Josh made the comment.
He feels like God wants someoneto defend him.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
I wrote that line down too.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
I struggle with this and I know it's kind of a
popular notion.
But why does God need me todefend him?
I literally don't understandthat and I'm not so sure that we
have the urge so much to defendGod as it is to defend our
(27:19):
comfort.
We don't want this house thatwe have carefully constructed to
topple the house of cards.
Well, I didn't want to call ita house of cards, because here's
the thing I know many peoplewho take their faith seriously,
(27:40):
sure and don't interact withinthe world this way.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
And I never want to disrespect that.
I just think the things we feelthe most defensive about are
the things we often are the mostinsecure about.
Yeah, and so I challenge thisnotion that God wants us to
defend him.
(28:07):
Now, in all honesty, if I wasin a class, would I sign a paper
like this?
No, it is no damn professor'sjob.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Absolutely.
Oh, it's a horrible pedagogy.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
I wouldn't sign it either way.
If it was a Christian professorinsisting that I signed God is
alive or God's not dead.
I wouldn't sign that either.
No one gets to.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Can I just say the only colleges that I have ever
heard of requiring a statementof belief, signing on to a
statement of belief, have beenconservative Christian colleges.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
That's it, or Maranatha Bible School or
Heritage Bible School.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Or Calvary Bible School.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Calvary yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Yeah, and so to be clear if I was in Josh's
situation.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
And so to be clear, if I was in Josh's situation I
would not be signing that papereither.
But I wouldn't do it because Ithink I have to defend God.
I would do it because it is sounethical.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Yes, yes, agreed.
Could not agree more.
I mean it's unethical for somany reasons and, in addition to
the foundational reason youjust gave, like it's just bad
pedagogy.
I'm like I think any professorwho's doing this kind of thing,
if their colleagues knew, theywould be outraged, right, I mean
(29:38):
, that's just lazy, that's lazyteaching.
And do you know, watching thismovie stirred some core memories
for me and I started to do somedigging because I was like, do
you remember a story kind oflike this that involved a piece
of chalk?
Say more.
Okay, I have this memory.
(30:00):
And hey, memories are fuzzy andmemories are malleable.
And so, with all those caveatsin mind, it was like something
from like some kind of Sword ofthe Lord publication, which is a
fundamentalist Baptistpublication, or something like
that, where, like, I'mremembering typewritten text.
(30:23):
So we're going way back in timehere, but something about a boy
at school and in my mind it waslike, maybe like in communist
Russia, but also, according toSnopes and the internet, it's
also been USC University ofSouthern California.
It's made the rounds and theprofessor says if you don't
(30:45):
denounce God or if you don'tyeah, it's been, it's made the
rounds and the professor says ifyou don't denounce god, or if
you don't, yes, a similar kindof thing, if you prove god is
real, or if, if I, um, if I dropthis chalk and it doesn't fall
to the ground, if and it doesn'tbreak somehow, that was
supposed to prove the existenceof god or not.
And I'm I'm getting this allmessed up, but hey, it's on the
internet, you can find it if youwant.
(31:07):
And this one time, this oneyoung man objects and the chalk
falls down and, don't you know,it falls on the cuff of the
professor's pants and it breaks.
The fall and the chalk falls onthe floor and doesn't break and
the professor runs from theclassroom in disgrace.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Are you sure?
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Here's the unrealistic part it's not done
yet.
The unrealistic part, thereally unrealistic part, is that
the students then stayed for 30minutes while this young man
preached the good news to them.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Okay, so are you sure this wasn't in a Christian Aid
for Romania newsletter?
Speaker 1 (31:56):
It could have been.
I mean, this is what I'm sayingis like this feels so familiar,
yeah, yeah, and of course, fromwhat I was able to find, like
according to Snopes, and there'slike no one's ever been able to
track down where this actuallyhappened, like it was just it's
(32:17):
it's a likely story, it's likeit's an urban legend, but it's
so.
It has been around since the1920s.
Oh my yeah, but it's so.
It has been around since the1920s.
Oh my yeah, it's been aroundsince the 1920s.
And I think it just ties in sowell with the religiosity and
anti-intellectualism of theUnited States.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Well, and I guess my question is why do we so
desperately need those types ofstories to affirm us, and what
about it is so affirmative?
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Yeah Well, it smells a lot like a martyr complex.
The irony that here we have acountry that was built around
and in deference to the beliefsof white Christians and yet
white Christians are claiming tobe persecuted.
I mean, even their stories ofpersecution have to be
(33:16):
fabricated, because they aredoing the things they're
accusing atheists of doing.
That's their MO, and instead,in propaganda pieces like this,
they're accusing outsiders ofdoing what they do.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Right, right.
So of course Josh loses hisgirlfriend.
I think that's where thisconversation started.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
The girlfriend ditches him.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
No, that's okay.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Did you have more to say?
But I did have one thing I letI wrote down.
I forbid you that was.
That was a line that she yeahyeah.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
So I think I wrote oh no, the girlfriend is ditching
him and harassing him too well,you can see she's gonna be be an
unsubmissive wife one day.
Yeah, yeah.
And then they bring DuckDynasty into it, because of
course they do.
I was not expecting that andI'm trying to remember if I knew
(34:17):
they would Like aftereverything, I was like, yeah,
maybe I.
But when they crawled out ofthe truck I was just like, oh
yeah.
But when they crawled out ofthe truck I was just like, oh
yeah, and I thought thestoryline of Amy was just so sad
it's not the right word, evenLike I almost want to go to poor
taste.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, let's think aboutthe inherent, the internal
inconsistencies here.
She's this leftist vegan who isin league with this horrible,
horrible corporatist.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
And isn't she some type of popular influencer?
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Yeah, she's a blogger .
I think she was one of theearly influencers.
Yes, yeah, yes.
Influencer, yeah, I think shewas one of the early influencers
.
Yes, yeah, yes.
And and also, did you noticehow, like, when she was holding
the phone up to the duck dynastyguy, like she was, she was
holding it, like she was holdinga gunpoint, right, which was I?
I'm trying to find the words tosay how perfectly awful this is
(35:25):
.
Like they couldn't, if they, ifsomeone was trying to make a
parody of a christian film, Ilike, what's the point of doing
it there?
It's, it's making itself,because the duck dynasty guys
are.
It's a costume, like I mean,they, they were, they used to be
these guys in polo shirtsplaying golf.
Have you seen those pictures?
(35:46):
Yeah, I mean, like they arecosplaying rednecks.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Right and they're cosplaying rednecks with the hot
wife.
Yeah, but my observation, andagain this kind of made me sad.
Unless someone was quote aseeker, they were kind of
projected as jerks.
Yeah, and just sad.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
Not kind of yeah.
They were universally awfulpeople.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
And as sad, like dismal people almost without
dignity.
Yeah, and that bothers me.
Like if our perception of theoutside world or of anyone who
doesn't think the way we do, ifthat is our perception, I guess
(36:36):
then I understand why we fightthe way we do.
I was going to say, if that'sthe perception, it's sad and it
is Well, it is.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Yeah, but that's Say more about that.
When you say when you fight,when we fight the way we do, Can
you say more about that?
Speaker 2 (36:52):
I feel like Christians constantly
participate in this zero-sumgame.
We can't have conversations.
Christians are mad at peoplewho even deconstruct.
No, if they're mad at peoplewho deconst, deconstruct, no
they.
If they're mad at people whodeconstruct, they probably can't
handle a philosophy class rightlike christians are so often so
(37:15):
attached to their certainty, totheir rigid beliefs, to their,
their, this idea of who god isand who god certainly is not,
and anyone and anything thatfalls outside of that they can't
just disagree with.
They have to have this fight,with this battle of wits.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Yeah, and they have to see themselves as being
persecuted by that.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Right, never suggesting or thinking about
that.
There may be hurting otherpeople too.
Yeah, maybe they're actuallyhurting other people too yeah.
Maybe they're actually thepersecutor.
Yeah, like I did, I hurt otherpeople.
Yeah, I shamefully hurt otherpeople.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Yeah, me too, me too Agreed, agreed.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
And I wish we would, maybe, maybe we just all need to
settle down just a little bit.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
Well, here's the thing.
My sense is that if we don't gointo attack mode, if we don't
go into spiritual warfare mode,the powers that be lose some of
their power, like they gaincontrol of their followers,
(38:28):
their congregants, by keepingthem in a perpetual state of
warfare.
People are just easier tocontrol.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Well, and it's so much fear is involved.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Yeah, well, scared people are easier to control.
Right, right, and people whoare very genuine and care about
right and wrong and want to dothe right thing get caught in
that trap.
Right, yeah, yeah, it's, it's,it's just.
It's so unfortunate because Ijust want to reiterate again,
(39:01):
just in case this hasn't beenclear In my experience,
professors at least in the partsof the country where I've gone
to school and that might havesomething to do with it
professors are incrediblynervous about saying something
critical about someone's faith,to the point where I have had
(39:23):
professors I mean you have toowho are defending terrible
things that religions do underthe name of freedom of religion
and it's under this idea ofpluralism.
This is just not an interestingconversation, this conversation
that the Lee Strobels and theapologists Christian apologists
(39:44):
want to have have this provingGod is real or not these are
just not even interestingquestions to the vast majority
of professors out there, to mostacademics.
And what is interesting aboutthis whole series, or at least
some of the parts I'm aware of,is they take an issue and then
(40:04):
it ends up shifting at somepoint and they have to make that
shift and it's unrealistic andit's it's.
It doesn't even make sense inthe storyline, but they have to
make that shift in order to getthe conversation where the
filmmakers want it to go.
And what was interesting to mehere in the film is when, again
(40:25):
and again, the logic of it wasif I can prove that there might
be a God, then that somehowproves there is a God, and that
or different times, when logicof the logic of creationists was
projected onto evolution oronto science.
(40:47):
And it's like no scienceunderstands.
Academic research understandsthat all knowledge is contingent
, everything we know iscontingent on what we know right
now, and that new informationis always becoming available.
So when we talk about facts,we're talking about well, based
on what we have in front of usright now, and there's always
(41:10):
the expectation that thingscould change.
Where religion is saying no,things are this way, black and
white.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
That's it and what I would love to see is Christians
to be able to have betterconversations and understand
that perhaps what they assume ishappening in academia or in the
outside world might be aprojection of their fears.
(41:36):
And I think more often, in myexperience, more often the dogma
comes from the religious world,not from the outside world, and
again, that's my perception.
I am sure it also comes fromthe outside world, but in my
(41:57):
experience that hasn't been thecase.
Yeah, the one part where Ireally got a little bit
frustrated was when Josh wantedto play this notion that without
faith and without God therewould be no morals.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Oh, my goodness, yes.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Can we talk about that?
Speaker 1 (42:19):
Let's talk about that .
You know I have had people tryto tell me this.
You know that if it, you know,if it weren't for the threat of
hell, you know they would be outdoing all kinds of horrible
things.
I'm like, no, I think you'reselling yourself short.
I think you're a decent person.
I don't think you'd be goingout committing murder and doing
(42:40):
all these horrible things if youdidn't have the threat of hell
hanging over you, if you didn'thave the threat of hell hanging
over you.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
You know what's interesting the more I
deconstruct this notion of helland the idea of hell, and the
more I let go of the fear ofhell, the more seriously I look
at what I want to do and what Iwant to be, because that's who I
(43:09):
want to be.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
And that's what I want to do.
The more I deconstruct, theless it becomes about what I
need to do, or what the rightthing is to do, or what God
wants me to do, because that canbe fairly black and white and
also awarding oh God saw mecommit that good action and I'm
(43:34):
going to get stars in my crownfor it.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Self-serving.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Yeah, I've realized that I really don't think that
thought process anymore and Ijust focus on who I want to be
when I go to bed at night, andthat's harder, that's more
difficult, and I have found thatit's not about the reward or
(44:03):
burning in hell for not doing it.
It's about the validation ofconnection and of not this
notion of saving the world, butby just making the tiny corner
of the world that I'm a part ofbetter and acknowledging what
(44:23):
other people do it for me.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
Yeah, it's about doing good for the sake of doing
good, right, because that's whoI want to be.
Because of who you want to be,yes, yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
Yeah, and I'm not waiting for some glorious
mansion, yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
Gold star, gold streets.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
I'm not like, that's not a motivation.
Right, Right Right right, right, and Christians are actually
the foundation of good morals.
We've got a lot of crap we'redealing with in our circles.
Lots of crap.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
Well, I think, of all the villains in this movie.
The villains are all fromwithin.
I mean the, the, the behaviorsthat they projected on these
villains are all their ownbehaviors.
Yeah, yeah, I mean thedogmatism which we've been
talking about.
(45:21):
The complete jerk and that hewas to his wife and our
girlfriend.
You know, he was incrediblydisrespectful and rude to her.
Which patriarchy anybody.
And then you've got the muslimgirl who I I just thought it was
it was is incredibly xenophobic, but also like they had her
(45:44):
getting out of here.
She is in jeans, you know, know, dressed like a conventional
American student, a collegestudent, but then she's got the.
She's wearing a headscarf thatcovers her face.
Like I don't, I've never seenthat.
Like I don't know, I don'tthink that's a thing.
I think if you're covering yourface, you're also wearing the
(46:05):
hijab.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
So Matt came into the room just oh, you weren't
finished Finish what you weregoing to say.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
Well, and that's just a superficial thing, her father
.
I was like I thought he wasgoing to be a good guy.
At first I was like, oh, hesounds like the ideal Christian
patriarch.
He's saying all the same things.
And then, of course, he turnsout.
Well, guess what?
He does turn out to be justlike the Christian patriarchs,
because he throws her outeventually when he finds out
(46:34):
she's a Christian.
Except Christian parents arethrowing out their gay and
transgender kids.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
Right.
And sometimes parents arethrowing out their kids because
they blow the whistle on abuse.
Absolutely.
This happens people.
This happens Absolutely.
And it was funny because Mattwalked in while they were first
introducing I forget her nameand her dad in the car and he
(47:04):
goes, whoop, whoop, whoop.
Bad person alert, bad personalert.
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
The body language, everything.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
We knew he was going to be a villain, even though he
was saying all the and I don'tknow how to say this, but the
way they use diversity with allthe biases, just all the biases,
it just reinforces, yeah, itreinforces.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
It's like almost worse than if it were just a
pure white cast.
Because then, by bringing inthese, quote unquoteunquote,
diverse backgrounds, all they'redoing is reinforcing, just
reinforced, their stereotypes.
Speaker 2 (47:53):
and because yeah, on one hand I was glad, okay, good,
it was an all an all-white cast, but oi, the biases were there
uh, it was so, so disrespectful.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
Um, I mean all the way down to the always cheerful,
wise black man from africa, noless.
Oh, oh, oh, um.
And then also, uh, it wasreally interesting.
How so this girl, the muslimgirl, comes home from school and
we see her getting out her iPod, ipod Nano one of those and
(48:32):
listening to Franklin Graham, aminister by Franklin Graham, and
she lays on her bed like she'slistening to music and somehow
this what eight, nine-year-oldlittle boy sees the name
Franklin Graham and knowsautomatically exactly what's
(48:55):
going on.
Right, right, because he knowsthe names of famous Franklin
yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, preachers ofother religions are, and then
that was the basis for hergetting kicked out of her house.
I also noticed a lot of kind ofspiritual bypassing when she
did come to the church then,after being kicked out, and what
(49:16):
did they say?
Something like it was somethingtrite and like God works all
things together for good, orsomething like that, and it was
just such a.
It was meant to be comforting,but it was such a good example
of spiritual bypassing, of kindof going yep, well, you know,
count it all joy.
I think somewhere that I thinkso.
Speaker 2 (49:36):
I think so too.
You know the thing.
That kind of struck me and Ikind of had to like sit with it
for a bit.
So the Muslim father wasphysically abusive to her and
literally threw her out of thehouse, but then it shows him
sitting on the step sobbingafterwards, and I kind of sat
(49:58):
with that for a bit because, inall fairness, I think my parents
probably felt that type ofgrief too when I was disowned.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
Did they have this space, or were they connected
enough to their emotions toexpress?
Speaker 2 (50:14):
it, and I think is it in how to Kill a Mockingbird,
where she says something alongthe lines of the Bible can, in
the wrong hands, be as bad as abottle of whiskey or as damaging
(50:36):
as a bottle of whiskey.
Speaker 1 (50:38):
Whoa.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
Yeah, and I butchered that phrase, I totally
butchered it, but it's somethinglike that.
Butchered it, but it'ssomething like that, and I think
we've talked about it likeparents who followed Bill
Gothard and who did all thespankings and all the things
it's not just the Muslim parentswho get it wrong and are in
serious grief about theirwayward child.
(51:00):
I think this happens in manyreligions, including
Christianity, and maybe we don'thave to be so divisive.
Maybe we can be an example ofwhat living peacefully with
people we don't agree with lookslike.
Maybe love doesn't have to beor the Bible, or our truth
(51:23):
doesn't have to be like a bottleof whiskey.
Speaker 1 (51:25):
Yeah, and maybe skills like problem solving,
skills like conflict resolution,I think often Even honesty,
even honesty, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:39):
And reflection.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
Yes, yes, are things that are just, they are not
taught, or if they're taught,they're taught in this very
hierarchical way, or what?
Speaker 2 (51:52):
does the Bible tell us about that?
Speaker 1 (51:54):
Right, and often the Bible's interpreted in a very
hierarchical way.
I guess what it's saying islike I think it is so
unfortunate that well-meaningpeople aren't equipped with the
tools to do these things likeconflict resolution, and instead
there's, like this suspicion ofpluralism right, pluralism is a
(52:16):
bad word in these circles theidea that you can have and this
is the thing where Anabaptistsshould be leading the way on
this- I know they should.
Anabaptists were the ones who,hundreds of years ago, were
saying hey, we should be able tochoose our religion and we
shouldn't all have to be part ofthe same religion.
Speaker 2 (52:39):
And we should live peacefully with each other.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
And what that has come to mean, unfortunately, is
we all have to be the same oryou can't be with us.
Yeah, and it's really, reallyunfortunate because I think
whenever we're talking aboutkind of dogmatic, tyrannical,
authoritarian systems whetherit's religion or politics or
(53:04):
anything when we lose thoseskills, then it leads to all
kinds of unnecessary conflictand all kinds of harm.
And I think this is what comesout of having this purist
mindset which, when we thinkthat doing right or wrong comes
down to following the rules ofthe Bible or rules of whatever
(53:26):
or not, we get that very rigidperspective and that very rigid
us versus them perspective onthe world, versus living true to
our own values and recognizing,yeah, others can live true to
their own values too, and itdoesn't need to threaten me.
And that's just not at allencouraged by films like this.
(53:49):
In fact, I wonder who do youthink is the intended audience
for this film?
Is it non-believers?
Is it rank and file?
Who do you think you?
Speaker 2 (54:01):
know again.
I don't know Because I don'tknow, because I don't want to in
any way shame someone who foundthis movie helpful.
Sure, it did have some goodfeel elements and I can see how,
20 years ago, it may havevalidated my faith.
Speaker 1 (54:24):
Oh, yeah, same.
Speaker 2 (54:26):
So my guess is it was probably geared to Christians
who haven't deconstructed.
I don't think that that isnecessarily bad, but I think we
have to figure out a way to dothat in a way that offers
dignity to everybody involvedand honesty about who we are,
(54:50):
not just glorifying theChristian.
Speaker 1 (54:52):
Right, because Is that fair?
Yeah, I mean, I think more thanfair.
I guess I'm far enough removedfrom this worldview that I'm
saying this more as an outsiderto it now, but oftentimes
propaganda is directed towardpeople outside the group.
In my mind, this is propagandadirected to those inside the
(55:15):
group.
It's propaganda that isdirected at young people going
to college and it is teachingthem to go in with defenses.
It's teaching them that theirprofessors are out to get them.
It's putting them in anoppositional mindset and the
(55:36):
bottom line is it's just notbased on reality.
Speaker 2 (55:38):
But I think even broader than that.
It taints our view of what theunbeliever really is.
Speaker 1 (55:47):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (55:48):
And what value the unbeliever has.
Absolutely, and I wonder ifit's not this type of propaganda
that perhaps makes usdisinterested in the single mom
or the immigrant who can't speakour language, or you know
whomever.
Speaker 1 (56:09):
It kills curiosity about any of those situations.
Speaker 2 (56:13):
And if someone is curious, oftentimes they're
curious and want to be helpfulin order to quote, show Jesus
and if the person doesn'treciprocate quickly enough, they
lose interest.
The christian loses interestbecause they can't save them,
and so they move on yeah, it'svery colonist, very colonizing
(56:35):
kind of perspective and guys.
That's exactly what we accusethem of.
Like we can do better, we weshould do better.
I mean, like I think we'reobligated to do better, and the
disinterest and the arrogancethat I have seen so often from
religious systems and leaders.
(56:57):
That's why you're losing churchmembers.
That's why you have the donesand the nons.
Why you have the dones and thenones, it's because they
listened when you talked aboutJesus being a humble carpenter
and sitting with the sinners andeating with the people.
Other people scorned, they tookit seriously.
(57:19):
They took it seriously andthey're frustrated because
you're not.
Yeah, Josh, at some point getsin the professor's space and is
arguing with him and yelled athim because he demanded them to
sign these papers and to believea certain way.
And that was a valid point.
That was an absolute validpoint.
But I had to think you know,Josh, so does your God.
(57:42):
Your God demands as well.
I'm wondering if what you viewas your God you're kind of
projecting onto your professor.
Speaker 1 (57:52):
Yes, well, and that seems to be what the film is
doing, right Again and again,it's projecting the view of it's
a very dualistic model wherethe assumption is oh, these
atheist professors are justdoing the same thing, we are
just in reverse, and that's nottrue.
(58:12):
And I think for me that was thebiggest mental shift.
For me was going from seeingthings as two-sided to seeing
things as having 27 sides, andthe idea of demanding that
(58:35):
someone pick a side like that isyeah, that's the purview of
dogmatic religion, not education.
Speaker 2 (58:41):
There was no space for someone in the class just to
say you gave me a lot to thinkabout.
I don't know.
There was no space for someonein the class, just to say you
gave me a lot to think about, Idon't know yeah.
There was no space for that.
And at one point again, joshwas yelling at the professor and
told him that what he'steaching is anti-theism, which
is that was valid.
(59:02):
That was valid.
The way the professor washandling the class, that was an
absolute valid argument.
But Josh was presenting theexact opposite.
And how was that better?
To me, it would have been atthe end of the movie or at the
end of the class.
Everyone in the class has tostand up.
(59:24):
They were the jury.
They had to decide.
You know, is there a God, isthere not a God?
One or the other.
And of course, every student inthe class stood up and said God
is alive.
Was what they said?
Right, wasn't that what theysaid?
Speaker 1 (59:39):
Or something like that.
Speaker 2 (59:41):
Not one person said hmm, I don't know, but I can't
say with certainty that God isdead or I don't know.
You've given me something tothink about.
Why is there not more space forthat, not just in the movie,
but in our circles?
We have so little space tosimply say I don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
And you know, I think that lack of space for that
kind of thing was a major pointof my disillusionment that just
asking a question, asking anhonest question in good faith,
was dangerous.
Speaker 2 (01:00:19):
Well, and for those of us who can't stop thinking,
yeah, it quickly becomesapparent, or at some point it
becomes apparent that there aresome things we can't know.
And the way it's oftentimespresented is if you reach that
spot, you're out.
(01:00:40):
And then they wonder whythere's people leaving the
church.
It is so insane to me that muchof religion is so, so slow and
almost refuses to see how theirrigid not just a rigid belief,
but a rigid call to action or arigid call to live and exist in
(01:01:07):
this community, is what ispushing people out.
Speaker 1 (01:01:10):
Yeah, yeah, right, and there's often this move to
just double down rather thanadjust.
Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
Can we talk about how much I hate the way they killed
the professor at the end?
Are we allowed to talk aboutthat?
Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
Well, we already warned about spoilers, so why
not?
I was yeah agree yeah, so is heon the way to the concert.
Speaker 2 (01:01:35):
I think that that that where everybody's paths
kind of everyone's going to anews boys concert because
because it's 2014.
Of course they are.
Speaker 1 (01:01:46):
And then he's on his way there and he's in an
accident.
Speaker 2 (01:01:52):
The weather forecast had been clear skies, no rain.
The black missionary had saidit's going to rain and the white
church pastor made fun of himfor saying that because it
totally went against the weatherforecast.
But oh look, the missionary wasright and the magical, yeah,
(01:02:15):
magical, mysterious very lastminute the professor decided he
was going to go to the concert.
And he's on his way and just infront of the pastor.
And well, the pastor and themissionary had stopped at a red
light.
It's raining, cats and dogs,and the professor crosses the
street in front of them anddoesn't let his car come out of
(01:02:38):
nowhere and just take him out,but not totally take him out.
He has three precious minutesto live.
Speaker 1 (01:02:47):
And while they're dying, the missionaries say
something about this being agood thing.
Right?
Because, of course, as he'spraying the sinner's prayer, as
we all know he's going to do, inhis last gasps dying gasps of
(01:03:10):
breath the missionary makes somekind of remark about this being
a good thing, which I.
It strikes me it's like gettinghim to say the quiet part out
loud, thinking that audienceswon't criticize him out of a
fear of it being raciallymotivated.
It wouldn't look good tocriticize the black man.
And so the black man says thething that the white people are
thinking.
Is that overthinking it?
Speaker 2 (01:03:32):
Well, I mean no, I can see how you got there.
I think he was trying to saythat it was a good thing because
heaven's better than earth hasbeen for him, and that, in
actuality, he's going to becelebrating things we know
nothing about.
Speaker 1 (01:03:47):
That's one way to look at it.
Yes, another way to look at itis the bad guy I know Is taken
out.
Speaker 2 (01:03:55):
And the most offensive thing here, the most
offensive thing for me wasliterally, literally, as this
was going on, as the professorwas laying on the pavement in
pouring down rain, barely ableto breathe, duck Dynasty is at
the concert on a screen and hedoes a shout out to Josh.
(01:04:18):
He heard about this kid whotook up a professor and argued
him, and the next song iscommitted to you, this kid.
And then was the call to texteveryone in your contact list
three words God's not dead.
And this is going down as theprofessor is dying.
Speaker 1 (01:04:42):
Poetic justice.
Speaker 2 (01:04:46):
Like, you have to validate the win one more time.
Yeah, one more time yeah whilethe professor is gasping for
breath yeah and I think, andagain, not shame anyone who
participated in this, that isnot at all what I want to do,
but but it hit me as this ideaof texting out these three words
(01:05:09):
God's not dead is such a weakwitnessing.
Speaker 1 (01:05:15):
Who is it going to convince, other than someone
who's already convinced?
Like, what impact is it goingto have?
Speaker 2 (01:05:23):
Right, you know what's hard witnessing the
single mom who's forever havingcar problems and doesn't know
how to line up a mechanic, thekid who needs a babysitter, the
friend who, once again, has gotsomething happening, the person
with mental health struggles,the person who believes a
(01:05:43):
different faith, absolutely,totally different from yours.
But you're trying to hold spacefor them too.
I feel like we want to do thesethings to make us feel like
we're doing something importantand valuable, when really it's
an advertising ploy for thepeople who are telling you to do
(01:06:04):
it.
It was absolutely anadvertising, boy.
Yeah, because you know who wasbuying all those tickets Youth
groups, churches, Yep yep, andthen it became a contest to see
who, like everyone, had to seeit yeah yeah, yeah.
But you know what, though thatwas brilliant marketing strategy
, I mean I have to give themcredit.
Speaker 1 (01:06:24):
I have to give them credit for that brilliant
marketing strategy, because theonly people that it pulled in
were the people who were alreadygoing to be buying tickets or
who would be interested inbuying tickets.
Yeah, talk about guerrillamarketing, because the
filmmakers don't have to pay forall that free advertising.
All that's going out onpeople's phones, boy, that's
(01:06:48):
name of the movie.
Speaker 2 (01:06:50):
Let's be clear I have nothing but happiness for
someone who finds peace withthis and who finds comfort.
Speaker 1 (01:07:01):
Two things can be true.
Two things can be true.
Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
Well, yes, two things can be true, but let's be
honest about what we're doing.
Speaker 1 (01:07:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:07:12):
And let's listen, let's pay attention to what the
people at the top of thehierarchy are telling you to do.
They don't always have yourbest interest in mind.
Sometimes they just simply wantto sell tickets.
Speaker 1 (01:07:26):
Absolutely, absolutely.
They don't always have yourbest interest in mind.
Sometimes they just simply wantto sell tickets, absolutely,
absolutely.
And when you think about theexample of Jesus in the New
Testament, like he did, plentyof discourse and conversation,
but it was with the religiousleaders.
Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
Yeah, and it was, it wasn't with the sinners.
Yeah, yeah and it was, itwasn't with the sinners.
Speaker 1 (01:07:45):
Yeah, the material support for people in need is
just undeniable.
I'm pointing out theinconsistency between what the
Bible says and what theBiblicists say it says Right,
and noting the giant gap betweenthat's all.
That's all.
Speaker 2 (01:08:05):
Exactly.
I hope you enjoyed this today.
I know it was convoluted andmessy and all over the place and
we told you the story so youdon't have to watch it.
Speaker 1 (01:08:17):
Since this wasn't a very structured podcast, maybe
we were able to keep you companyas you're, you know, folding
laundry or driving down the roador something like that, and if
so, then mission accomplished.
Speaker 2 (01:08:31):
And if you did watch it or decide you want to watch
it, we'd love to hear yourfeedback and thoughts and like
let us know what you think.
And maybe we missed something,Maybe we got something wrong.
Speaker 1 (01:08:41):
Right.
Speaker 2 (01:08:41):
Maybe you have more to add to what we said.
Speaker 1 (01:08:44):
Right, and it's really easy to send that kind of
response to us when you clickthe link in our show notes and
can send a text message rightthrough your phone and you don't
have to go look up the emailaddress if you don't want to do
that.
Speaker 2 (01:08:59):
And, as a caveat, if it takes us three days or a week
to get back in touch with you,it's not because we don't love
you.
It's because we're just, youknow, in touch with you.
It's not because we don't loveyou, it's because we're just,
you know, doing all the thingswe are trying to keep our heads
above water.
Speaker 1 (01:09:12):
But, yes, absolutely every, every note, uh, text,
email is uh, greatly, greatlyappreciated and is is is really
the.
The satisfaction is the paymentis our payment, it's our
payment for this hobby we have.
So that really does mean theworld.
Something we've been talkingabout is reading the artist's
(01:09:37):
way and then talking about ithere on the podcast.
I guess if we were betterorganized we might have like an
official book club kind ofsomething official.
But we're just putting this outthere, I guess to hold us
accountable as much as anythingthat we want to do this, and
inviting anyone who wants toread along with us.
I have not read the Artist's Way.
(01:09:58):
I'm familiar with it.
I have heard talk about it, andso I don't know if I'm going to
love it or not.
Talk about it, and so I don'tknow if I'm going to love it or
not, but it seems like it hascontent that could be valuable
to those of us who want to writeor want to have written, and it
might be something we'd enjoygoing through together.
So until next time, take care,folks.
(01:10:21):
Talk to you soon.
Speaker 2 (01:10:36):
Thank you for spending time with us today.
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 1 (01:10:45):
What are your thoughts about college and
recovery from high demandreligion?
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences and we
wanna talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atuncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom.
That's uncoveredlifebeyond atgmailcom.
Speaker 2 (01:11:04):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode Until
next time.
Speaker 1 (01:11:20):
Stay brave, stay bold , stay awkward.
This is Rebecca and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path Along the
way, we've uncovered a fewinsights we want to share with
fellow travelers.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up, we are here to cheeryou on and assure you that the
best is yet to come.
Welcome to Uncovered LifeBeyond.
Hello everyone, Welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
This is Naomi and this is Rebecca, it's been a hot
minute, hasn't it?
It has, so what's coming at you?
Speaker 1 (01:16):
these days.
Right now we're having our fallbreak, so it's two days, so
Monday, tuesday, so that means Ihave my Tuesday of classes this
week, and so I have a long list.
I've got like 10 different waysI could spend this time, I'm
sure, catching up on things athome, catching up on things at
work, catching up just on allthe things.
(01:39):
But last night got togetherwith some friends and we stayed
up till way too late chattingand just catching up, because
it's been so long since we'vebeen able to get together.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
That's exactly as it should be, though.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Well, yeah, yeah, exactly, and it shouldn't have
to wait till fall break, like itshould be something we could do
during normal times, but anyway.
So I'm a little bit sleepdeprived and I overindulged in
cheesecake last night, but youknow, it's all good, it was
(02:13):
worth it.
It was worth it.
How about you?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah, pretty much same.
I always forget that this timeof the year is busy.
I mean, of course it is.
This is when Holmes County hasthe peak tourist season, so at
work.
We're the busiest and I guessonline classes at my college
don't get fall break, Like it isunacknowledged in all my
(02:37):
classes, which absolutely-.
The injustice, exactly.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Like seriously.
I mean, in my experienceprofessors need the break as
much as students do.
Like what I, I?
I don't understand the logicthere, but I don't know.
We got some hard liners here Iguess, and I, yeah, I don't
understand the logic of a lot ofonline education.
I'll just say I don't either.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
I don't either.
Um plus, I am getting ready formy big open house that I do
every year.
And you know, because I don'tget fall break doesn't mean my
kids don't get fall break.
So my kids have been home,which is wonderful, but it also
means you know extra cooking andall the stuff and you want to
spend time with.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Right.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
And then Chase is in soccer tournaments, which is
amazing, and they're doing well.
But yeah, so it's just a lot ofgood stuff, it's good stuff,
but, like I know this, why am Itaking as many classes as I am?
Yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Everything everywhere all at once.
Well, and you know what?
Here's the thing I think it'sworth mentioning too.
While it is totally legit to bea college student in midlife,
if you're doing it alongside allthe other responsibilities and
realities of midlife, that's notwhat the education system was
(03:56):
built for, like it was notdesigned for that, and so you're
trying to do the work of likethree or four people.
So props to you.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
I think, unfortunately, this notion of a
stay-at-home mom is this ideathat I don't know.
She spends an hour every daycooking and doing laundry and
cleaning up the house, and thenmaybe an hour getting kids ready
for school and home from school, and the rest is free time.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
So if she quote picks up a part-time job, or if she
quote you know, does whatever,well, she's got all that free
time, like, come on, it'll befine.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
And when she does that, none of her
responsibilities that take twohours a day at all decrease.
Yeah, those stay.
That tend to stay the same andI don't think for the most part,
it's because of any ill intenton anyone's part, but I think
(05:03):
that's how our system staysalive and at the end of the day,
we all want wives, and I saythat I mean yesterday Matt went
and got groceries.
Matt does an amazing job, hehelps too, but a lot of the
mental labor stays the same.
Right, right, a lot of movingparts stays the same, and I can
(05:32):
criticize myself for havingallowed it to take me this long
to get through school, but atthe same time I'm like I
probably wouldn't criticize afriend of mine for the same
process.
So just let it be.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
It's okay.
Right, well, it's a boo to thesystem, not to you.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Right, right yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
So tell us what we're going to talk about today.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Well, this is something we've kicked around, I
think, for a long time.
The movie God's Not Dead is onethat's kind of been on the
periphery of my radar, but I'venever watched it until this
weekend.
But it was the kind of thingthat I saw in my newsfeed, you
know, back when it came out in2014.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
And just hearing the premise told me that it was a
movie about what some people whohad never been to college
imagined college to be like whatsome people who had never been
to college, imagined college tobe like yeah, so Naomi has
brought up the idea of uswatching and then talking about
God's Not Dead several times.
(06:33):
And I kept trying to dodge thebullet.
And last night, while I waswatching it, matt came in and he
started watching it with me andhe's like why exactly are you
watching this and what exactlyare you going to talk about?
And I'm like I'm like Naomi'strying to punish me, that's all
I know oh, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
I'm so sorry.
You know what?
I?
I tried to talk Dave, myboyfriend, into watching it with
me.
The most I could get wasgetting him to watch the trailer
and that's all he needed to see.
And he's like it's going to be80 degrees.
I got to go birding.
But here's the thing.
I think this, even though thisis clearly a problematic film, I
(07:20):
think it would not hurtprofessors, faculty people in
higher education, people workingin higher education who are
working with students from thesekinds of backgrounds, from
conservative Christianbackgrounds, to listen to the
film, to understand theperspective that students are
(07:42):
coming in with, because I thinkthere is a giant mismatch in
expectations and I think that'swhat we want to talk about here
today, because the film portrayscollege kind of in the way our
worst fears, the way we saw itin our worst fears, imagined it.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Right.
This was why we were told youprobably shouldn't go to college
, because the end goal of highereducation was precisely what
the professor projected.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Right, right.
So maybe to get us started,I'll read a synopsis of the film
that I read, just in caseanybody who's listening hasn't
seen it.
There's going to be spoilers,so if that matters to you, go
watch it first.
But on the other hand, you canjust listen to us and we can
save you the two hours it takesto watch the film.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
We are much more fun than the film was.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
So I found a synopsis on a blog and I'll link it in
the show notes.
I don't have any knowledge ofthe writer of this blog, so this
is not an endorsement.
I thought the synopsis did apretty good job, and so that's
the only reason that I'mreferencing this.
I just don't want tounknowingly endorse something
(09:03):
that's problematic, right?
Okay, so here's the synopsis.
If you have as many evangelicalfriends as I do, it is not
unlikely that at some point inthe last year or two, you
received a text message thatsimply reads God's not dead.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
The reason for.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Did you?
I heard about them.
I heard about them, but Ididn't get one.
I guess.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Matt said the same thing and I'm like I got so many
.
How can?
Speaker 1 (09:27):
you not have gotten any.
I guess they knew I was beyondhope.
Maybe that's why.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
And to be fair.
To be fair, if anyone listening, send it to me.
I know it was done with loveand absolutely just being caught
up in the moment.
I don't want to shame you.
I feel kind of bad now, but Idid maybe have a small.
Well, I actually got quite afew.
(09:53):
Yeah, discuss later why I thinkthis is such, why it was such a
bad idea.
Okay, um come on.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
This was a publicity stunt, but anyway, move on, and
a very effective, very effectiveand very profitable one.
I think the movie had like twomillion dollars for a budget and
it grew, or it it gross nettedit made like 64 million.
So somebody got very rich offof this.
Okay, so the reason for thesetext messages is the recent
(10:33):
movie God's Not Dead.
At the end of the movie, thefilm going audience is told by
renowned Christian thinker andstar of Duck Dynasty, willie
Robertson, to text their friendsthat God's not dead.
It is the fitting capstone to amovie which is little more than
every Christian apologist'sgreatest fantasy committed to
film.
Here's the movie's basic plot.
(10:54):
A freshman college studentenrolls in a philosophy class.
The professor is a virulentatheist who, on the first day of
class, immediately implores thestudents to accept a fact that
all his sophomore studentsalready have there is no God.
He asks the students to writedown three words God is dead.
Of course, our freshmanprotagonist refuses to do so on
(11:17):
the grounds that he's aChristian.
The professor then tells thestudent that he will have to
defend the existence of God.
So basically, the rest of thefilm is devoted to him seeking
out defenses for the proof ofGod, and it all culminates in a
final showdown between thestudent and the professor.
The film ends with spoileralert the professor accepting
Jesus on his pavement deathbedafter being hit by a car.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
It was so, it was so ridiculous, was so angry.
Sorry, continue.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Well, and I think one way to kind of understand the
structure of the film is I heardit compared to like a Christian
version of Love Actually or Iforget what the other film was.
It was compared to like whereit was kind of multiple
storylines that were threadedtogether and eventually
everything comes together.
And I think our greatestinterest is, of course, is the
(12:08):
main one the professor, becauseof the misconceptions, all the
ways that higher education ismisrepresented in the film, and
there's just so much to talkabout, so many layers to talk
about, and I thought it would beinteresting to go through here
and just talk about what are thethings that it got wrong about?
Higher education?
(12:29):
Because these were therepresentations of college so
many of us had before startingcollege.
Like if we would have seen thiswhen we were young, we would
not have blinked.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
I don't think and it would have affirmed that, yeah,
college probably isn't for us.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
College is not a good idea.
It'd be a waste of time.
Why would you go put yourselfunder that kind of ungodly
influence?
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Right yeah, willingly , and while Josh, bless his
heart, can fight this battle,what if I'm not as smart as Josh
is?
Speaker 1 (13:03):
And.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
I think it also creates this unrealistic
expectation that when wedisagree with someone, there has
to be this winner and loser.
What happened to just havingconversations and being like?
I'm not sure if I agree withthat.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Right, because that's one of the wonderful things
about a college experience ishearing people talk through
their perspectives and there'sno sense that anyone has to
agree and I can just say, likethese questions that the
professor in this story is sohung up on are just not
(13:46):
interesting questions to mostprofessors I know, to any
professors I know.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Well, and legally, I don't think a professor would be
allowed to demand that hisstudents do this.
And when I was watching it, Iwas taking notes as I watched
and I just wrote wait, is thiswhat people think a professor is
?
I was trying to imagine myselfas an 18-year-old who dreamt
(14:13):
about college but had no chanceof going.
Is that what I imagined aprofessor to be?
And I think I kind of did yeah,yeah.
And I think I kind of did yeah,yeah.
And so much of what he didwouldn't have been legal or
wouldn't be legal.
No, from my experience, it'sthe Christian professors who
(14:37):
have treated me like this andhave treated classmates like
this classmates like this.
Now, granted, I probably hadChristian professors who weren't
like that but I'm sure I hadatheist professors who weren't
like that as well but in myexperience, it was the openly
Christian professors who wouldhave approached the classroom
(14:59):
with this type of energy, and Iwould never consider writing a
movie saying that this is howChristian professors act Like
why would I?
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Yeah, yeah, well, and also, you know, I guess I was a
little bit surprised that therewasn't more to talk about in
the film.
Like I thought we were going tocome away with a long list of
here's, all the things they gotwrong about higher education,
and the list was pretty shortjust because they made the same
mistakes again and again, andagain, right, right, and it
(15:33):
boils down to the the atheistprofessor is a complete a-hole.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
He's a jerk.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
He is a bully, he's dogmatic, he is cruel, he is
just a horrible person.
He's mean to his girlfriend,yes, yes, both in the classroom
and in his private life, andit's just this.
It's so one note.
It's so one note.
And there are a wholeprofessors.
(16:04):
There are professors who arejerks, like that is undeniable.
But it was one note and thatwas it Right.
Yeah, and the movie just keptmaking that point again and
again, and again.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Right, couldn't, I guess.
I wonder if it had beenpossible for them to have and
show an atheist who was actuallykind.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
But then that would poke holes in their own logic.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Right, right and eventually we get there.
And to me that is really sadbecause it made me feel a bit
defensive for my atheist friends, because atheist does not
equate a-holes.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Right, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Any more than Christian equates a-holes.
You got some in both.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
That's right, absolutely, and maybe we should
just say here for the sake ofanyone who hasn't Absolutely,
and maybe we should just sayhere for the sake of anyone who
hasn't read it, that so, likesome of the things that are
happening, early on we have thisfreshman, josh, who is
enrolling in classes.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
And he's warned.
He's warned not to take thisclass.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Okay, Would not happen.
That does not happen.
So, first of all, like if yougo to the, I mean maybe back in
2014,.
No, even back in 2014,.
Registration was not takingplace outside under the leaves,
under the trees, and even Iremember registering for classes
(17:39):
back before, when we were stilldoing it on slips of paper, but
like you would get your advisorto sign off on it and then you
take it to the registrar'soffice and they would type in
the stuff and off you go.
Like you didn't get an advisingsession from the registrar and
right and every situation I meanevery institution does it
differently, but I just yeah, bythis by 2014.
(18:03):
This is all happening online andnot yes conversations yeah,
also the humanities requirementthey said it with like it has
all the gravitas of um, uh, youknow, um, the rocket science or
or, or neuroscience or somethingreally specialized.
And I'm sorry, like speaking asa humanities professor, we
(18:24):
certainly feel like we feel verysorry for ourselves because we
perceive ourselves to be at thebottom of the hierarchy when it
comes to who gets respect on acollege campus.
And I am sure that I'm surewe're not actually, or I'm sure
we are blind to those who arefurther down in the hierarchy.
(18:47):
But I guess, when it comes to Imean, even on most small
liberal arts campuses where youwould think you would expect the
humanities to be most valued,you're lucky if you get lip
service to the value of thehumanities, much less actual
material support.
I mean, in a lot ofinstitutions they are weeding
(19:11):
out their human.
It's a shame.
It's a shame.
I think it's a huge, hugemistake but they are weeding out
their humanities departments asfast as they can.
And look in your own experiencehow many humanities classes
have you had?
Look in your own experience,like, how many humanities
classes have you had?
Like history.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
English literature, philosophy, art, appreciation.
I'm laughing because it's beeneight years or seven years or
how many years I don't know, butI've had quite a few.
You have, okay, I have.
And the thing is, I was goingto say this later, but it kind
of made me sad that they pickeda philosophy class to do this
(19:53):
with, because philosophy isfascinating, but the part of
philosophy that is so corrupt isthe masculine patriarchal roots
.
Yes, and that was neveracknowledged.
In fact, when I took philosophy, I was surprised at how much
(20:19):
philosophy and scripture kind ofrelated to each other and
scripture kind of related toeach other.
And if I would want to go toschool for another 10 years, I'd
probably become a philosophymajor, Like it really is
fascinating, like it's a classwhere you can ask all the
questions, think all thethoughts and you don't have to
(20:40):
come to a conclusion.
Yes, and you can come tomultiple conclusions and it's
okay.
Right, and regrettably to me,the movie never mentioned some
of the atrocious roots involvedin philosophy as being
(21:00):
problematic.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Right, well, and I like what you said about the
relationship between religionand philosophy, because, yeah,
you can't deny how intertwinedthey are.
I mean, and I think it's kindof a chicken and egg situation,
like how much of religion orreligious thought, religious
doctrine, came from philosophy,came from Plato and vice versa.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
And even when you think about the allegory of the
cave.
The entire time we werestudying that, I kept thinking
about the verse.
Now we see through a glass.
Darkly, darkly, yeah, like.
There's so many hints andsuggestions and references, and
I think the fact that I know myBible as well as I do made it
(21:47):
even more interesting.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Yes, I agree, I agree .
Speaker 2 (21:52):
So I want to emphasize the point that we
should not be afraid ofphilosophy.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yes, and if you do run across a dogmatic professor,
it might be a professor who'sdogmatic about no, that's not
what this professor, that whatthis thinker is saying.
Like it may be, they might bedogmatic about interpreting a
text or interpreting a thinker,but like they're not certainly
in a first year seminar courseor first year or freshman.
(22:21):
They're there to learn here's,here's what Plato thought,
here's what Aristotle thought,here's what Augustine thought.
Here's like.
I mean so, did you watch?
Little Sheldon, yes.
Young Sheldon, yes, we're.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Young Sheldon, young Sheldon.
Why did they come up withLittle Sheldon?
Yeah, did you watch?
Did you watch Young Sheldon?
Yeah, so I had to laugh at theway in his first philosophy
class it absolutely screwed uphis head because he was so used
to absolutes, and his professordid a fabulous job of being like
(22:59):
who knows, but then, if I'mremembering correctly, she
pointed out the fact that thisis the exact reason you should
continue studying.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Yeah, there's more to learn and I'm going to suggest.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
This is why we need people who deconstruct and we
need people who keep asking thequestions.
We need people who challengewhat we quote know, because we
don't know everything and lifeis a question.
And can we be okay in that,Right?
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Yeah, when you get to that part of it, you're going
to love it.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
I can't wait.
Yeah, barrett and I arewatching it evening One TV show
we found that we both enjoy.
I love you, sheldon.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Love it.
It's our one one TV show wefound that we both enjoy, so I
love you on Sheldon.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Yeah, it's great.
So oh, and before we move ontoo far, from the beginning, one
of the opening scenes of thefilm had the, the professor,
introducing this list of namesof great thinkers.
And you know there was, it waskind of the list of typical
suspects, and then in thereamong them was Ayn Rand, and
(24:11):
like boy that did if, ifanything tipped off.
This is a film of propaganda.
It is that Ayn Rand, likeacademics do not give a hoot
about Ayn Rand.
She was so rigid and black andwhite in her thinking the only
people capitalists are the onlyones who take her seriously.
(24:35):
In fact, in her biography Iremember reading about how she
was really wanting to beaccepted by academics and when
someone did kind of try to bringher like to an academic
conference and where she could,she was so offended by being
challenged, which that's thewhole point of academic
(24:55):
conferences is to havediscussion and to present ideas
and then have people askquestions and discuss it.
And she was so offended thather ideas were not just
wholesale accepted that shestormed out and thinking they
were all just turning on her.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Right, she had to take it personally.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
You took it personally, doesn't?
Speaker 2 (25:15):
that sound familiar.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Yeah.
So once we get past that longlist of quote unquote towering
intellects, there's another linethat I have here in my notes
where this pompous professorsays I'd have to empower them.
And I don't remember.
I wish I remembered thespecific context of this, but it
(25:40):
was something about.
To me, that line was very clearthat this is a.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
This professor is trying to disempower students
well, he made the comment thathe said in this class there's
one god, and that's me.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Oh my god yeah, oh my gosh, I can't.
Oh, and it's so cartoonish,like seriously.
Did they think anybody wasgoing to take this seriously?
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Yeah, and the one part and I think this line was
in the first part of the scenewhere he had this argument in
class and the professor saidfine, you're going to have 20
minutes to teach the next threeclasses and prove your point.
So Josh's girlfriend gets windof this and, of course, she's
(26:35):
the cute little blonde.
They've been dating for sixyears and, spoiler alert she's
angry with him because shethinks this is going to damage
their future in some way.
And Josh made the comment.
He feels like God wants someoneto defend him.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
I wrote that line down too.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
I struggle with this and I know it's kind of a
popular notion.
But why does God need me todefend him?
I literally don't understandthat and I'm not so sure that we
have the urge so much to defendGod as it is to defend our
(27:19):
comfort.
We don't want this house thatwe have carefully constructed to
topple the house of cards.
Well, I didn't want to call ita house of cards, because here's
the thing I know many peoplewho take their faith seriously,
(27:40):
sure and don't interact withinthe world this way.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
And I never want to disrespect that.
I just think the things we feelthe most defensive about are
the things we often are the mostinsecure about.
Yeah, and so I challenge thisnotion that God wants us to
defend him.
(28:07):
Now, in all honesty, if I wasin a class, would I sign a paper
like this?
No, it is no damn professor'sjob.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Absolutely.
Oh, it's a horrible pedagogy.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
I wouldn't sign it either way.
If it was a Christian professorinsisting that I signed God is
alive or God's not dead.
I wouldn't sign that either.
No one gets to.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Can I just say the only colleges that I have ever
heard of requiring a statementof belief, signing on to a
statement of belief, have beenconservative Christian colleges.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
That's it, or Maranatha Bible School or
Heritage Bible School.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Or Calvary Bible School.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Calvary yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
Yeah, and so to be clear if I was in Josh's
situation.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
And so to be clear, if I was in Josh's situation I
would not be signing that papereither.
But I wouldn't do it because Ithink I have to defend God.
I would do it because it is sounethical.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Yes, yes, agreed.
Could not agree more.
I mean it's unethical for somany reasons and, in addition to
the foundational reason youjust gave, like it's just bad
pedagogy.
I'm like I think any professorwho's doing this kind of thing,
if their colleagues knew, theywould be outraged, right, I mean
(29:38):
, that's just lazy, that's lazyteaching.
And do you know, watching thismovie stirred some core memories
for me and I started to do somedigging because I was like, do
you remember a story kind oflike this that involved a piece
of chalk?
Say more.
Okay, I have this memory.
(30:00):
And hey, memories are fuzzy andmemories are malleable.
And so, with all those caveatsin mind, it was like something
from like some kind of Sword ofthe Lord publication, which is a
fundamentalist Baptistpublication, or something like
that, where, like, I'mremembering typewritten text.
(30:23):
So we're going way back in timehere, but something about a boy
at school and in my mind it waslike, maybe like in communist
Russia, but also, according toSnopes and the internet, it's
also been USC University ofSouthern California.
It's made the rounds and theprofessor says if you don't
(30:45):
denounce God or if you don'tyeah, it's been, it's made the
rounds and the professor says ifyou don't denounce god, or if
you don't, yes, a similar kindof thing, if you prove god is
real, or if, if I, um, if I dropthis chalk and it doesn't fall
to the ground, if and it doesn'tbreak somehow, that was
supposed to prove the existenceof god or not.
And I'm I'm getting this allmessed up, but hey, it's on the
internet, you can find it if youwant.
(31:07):
And this one time, this oneyoung man objects and the chalk
falls down and, don't you know,it falls on the cuff of the
professor's pants and it breaks.
The fall and the chalk falls onthe floor and doesn't break and
the professor runs from theclassroom in disgrace.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Are you sure?
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Here's the unrealistic part it's not done
yet.
The unrealistic part, thereally unrealistic part, is that
the students then stayed for 30minutes while this young man
preached the good news to them.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Okay, so are you sure this wasn't in a Christian Aid
for Romania newsletter?
Speaker 1 (31:56):
It could have been.
I mean, this is what I'm sayingis like this feels so familiar,
yeah, yeah, and of course, fromwhat I was able to find, like
according to Snopes, and there'slike no one's ever been able to
track down where this actuallyhappened, like it was just it's
(32:17):
it's a likely story, it's likeit's an urban legend, but it's
so.
It has been around since the1920s.
Oh my yeah, but it's so.
It has been around since the1920s.
Oh my yeah, it's been aroundsince the 1920s.
And I think it just ties in sowell with the religiosity and
anti-intellectualism of theUnited States.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Well, and I guess my question is why do we so
desperately need those types ofstories to affirm us, and what
about it is so affirmative?
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Yeah Well, it smells a lot like a martyr complex.
The irony that here we have acountry that was built around
and in deference to the beliefsof white Christians and yet
white Christians are claiming tobe persecuted.
I mean, even their stories ofpersecution have to be
(33:16):
fabricated, because they aredoing the things they're
accusing atheists of doing.
That's their MO, and instead,in propaganda pieces like this,
they're accusing outsiders ofdoing what they do.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Right, right.
So of course Josh loses hisgirlfriend.
I think that's where thisconversation started.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
The girlfriend ditches him.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
No, that's okay.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Did you have more to say?
But I did have one thing I letI wrote down.
I forbid you that was.
That was a line that she yeahyeah.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
So I think I wrote oh no, the girlfriend is ditching
him and harassing him too well,you can see she's gonna be be an
unsubmissive wife one day.
Yeah, yeah.
And then they bring DuckDynasty into it, because of
course they do.
I was not expecting that andI'm trying to remember if I knew
(34:17):
they would Like aftereverything, I was like, yeah,
maybe I.
But when they crawled out ofthe truck I was just like, oh
yeah.
But when they crawled out ofthe truck I was just like, oh
yeah, and I thought thestoryline of Amy was just so sad
it's not the right word, evenLike I almost want to go to poor
taste.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, let's think aboutthe inherent, the internal
inconsistencies here.
She's this leftist vegan who isin league with this horrible,
horrible corporatist.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
And isn't she some type of popular influencer?
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Yeah, she's a blogger .
I think she was one of theearly influencers.
Yes, yeah, yes.
Influencer, yeah, I think shewas one of the early influencers
.
Yes, yeah, yes.
And and also, did you noticehow, like, when she was holding
the phone up to the duck dynastyguy, like she was, she was
holding it, like she was holdinga gunpoint, right, which was I?
I'm trying to find the words tosay how perfectly awful this is
(35:25):
.
Like they couldn't, if they, ifsomeone was trying to make a
parody of a christian film, Ilike, what's the point of doing
it there?
It's, it's making itself,because the duck dynasty guys
are.
It's a costume, like I mean,they, they were, they used to be
these guys in polo shirtsplaying golf.
Have you seen those pictures?
(35:46):
Yeah, I mean, like they arecosplaying rednecks.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Right and they're cosplaying rednecks with the hot
wife.
Yeah, but my observation, andagain this kind of made me sad.
Unless someone was quote aseeker, they were kind of
projected as jerks.
Yeah, and just sad.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
Not kind of yeah.
They were universally awfulpeople.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
And as sad, like dismal people almost without
dignity.
Yeah, and that bothers me.
Like if our perception of theoutside world or of anyone who
doesn't think the way we do, ifthat is our perception, I guess
(36:36):
then I understand why we fightthe way we do.
I was going to say, if that'sthe perception, it's sad and it
is Well, it is.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Yeah, but that's Say more about that.
When you say when you fight,when we fight the way we do, Can
you say more about that?
Speaker 2 (36:52):
I feel like Christians constantly
participate in this zero-sumgame.
We can't have conversations.
Christians are mad at peoplewho even deconstruct.
No, if they're mad at peoplewho deconst, deconstruct, no
they.
If they're mad at people whodeconstruct, they probably can't
handle a philosophy class rightlike christians are so often so
(37:15):
attached to their certainty, totheir rigid beliefs, to their,
their, this idea of who god isand who god certainly is not,
and anyone and anything thatfalls outside of that they can't
just disagree with.
They have to have this fight,with this battle of wits.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Yeah, and they have to see themselves as being
persecuted by that.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Right, never suggesting or thinking about
that.
There may be hurting otherpeople too.
Yeah, maybe they're actuallyhurting other people too yeah.
Maybe they're actually thepersecutor.
Yeah, like I did, I hurt otherpeople.
Yeah, I shamefully hurt otherpeople.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Yeah, me too, me too Agreed, agreed.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
And I wish we would, maybe, maybe we just all need to
settle down just a little bit.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
Well, here's the thing.
My sense is that if we don't gointo attack mode, if we don't
go into spiritual warfare mode,the powers that be lose some of
their power, like they gaincontrol of their followers,
(38:28):
their congregants, by keepingthem in a perpetual state of
warfare.
People are just easier tocontrol.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Well, and it's so much fear is involved.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Yeah, well, scared people are easier to control.
Right, right, and people whoare very genuine and care about
right and wrong and want to dothe right thing get caught in
that trap.
Right, yeah, yeah, it's, it's,it's just.
It's so unfortunate because Ijust want to reiterate again,
(39:01):
just in case this hasn't beenclear In my experience,
professors at least in the partsof the country where I've gone
to school and that might havesomething to do with it
professors are incrediblynervous about saying something
critical about someone's faith,to the point where I have had
(39:23):
professors I mean you have toowho are defending terrible
things that religions do underthe name of freedom of religion
and it's under this idea ofpluralism.
This is just not an interestingconversation, this conversation
that the Lee Strobels and theapologists Christian apologists
(39:44):
want to have have this provingGod is real or not these are
just not even interestingquestions to the vast majority
of professors out there, to mostacademics.
And what is interesting aboutthis whole series, or at least
some of the parts I'm aware of,is they take an issue and then
(40:04):
it ends up shifting at somepoint and they have to make that
shift and it's unrealistic andit's it's.
It doesn't even make sense inthe storyline, but they have to
make that shift in order to getthe conversation where the
filmmakers want it to go.
And what was interesting to mehere in the film is when, again
(40:25):
and again, the logic of it wasif I can prove that there might
be a God, then that somehowproves there is a God, and that
or different times, when logicof the logic of creationists was
projected onto evolution oronto science.
(40:47):
And it's like no scienceunderstands.
Academic research understandsthat all knowledge is contingent
, everything we know iscontingent on what we know right
now, and that new informationis always becoming available.
So when we talk about facts,we're talking about well, based
on what we have in front of usright now, and there's always
(41:10):
the expectation that thingscould change.
Where religion is saying no,things are this way, black and
white.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
That's it and what I would love to see is Christians
to be able to have betterconversations and understand
that perhaps what they assume ishappening in academia or in the
outside world might be aprojection of their fears.
(41:36):
And I think more often, in myexperience, more often the dogma
comes from the religious world,not from the outside world, and
again, that's my perception.
I am sure it also comes fromthe outside world, but in my
(41:57):
experience that hasn't been thecase.
Yeah, the one part where Ireally got a little bit
frustrated was when Josh wantedto play this notion that without
faith and without God therewould be no morals.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Oh, my goodness, yes.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Can we talk about that?
Speaker 1 (42:19):
Let's talk about that .
You know I have had people tryto tell me this.
You know that if it, you know,if it weren't for the threat of
hell, you know they would be outdoing all kinds of horrible
things.
I'm like, no, I think you'reselling yourself short.
I think you're a decent person.
I don't think you'd be goingout committing murder and doing
(42:40):
all these horrible things if youdidn't have the threat of hell
hanging over you, if you didn'thave the threat of hell hanging
over you.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
You know what's interesting the more I
deconstruct this notion of helland the idea of hell, and the
more I let go of the fear ofhell, the more seriously I look
at what I want to do and what Iwant to be, because that's who I
(43:09):
want to be.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
And that's what I want to do.
The more I deconstruct, theless it becomes about what I
need to do, or what the rightthing is to do, or what God
wants me to do, because that canbe fairly black and white and
also awarding oh God saw mecommit that good action and I'm
(43:34):
going to get stars in my crownfor it.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Self-serving.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Yeah, I've realized that I really don't think that
thought process anymore and Ijust focus on who I want to be
when I go to bed at night, andthat's harder, that's more
difficult, and I have found thatit's not about the reward or
(44:03):
burning in hell for not doing it.
It's about the validation ofconnection and of not this
notion of saving the world, butby just making the tiny corner
of the world that I'm a part ofbetter and acknowledging what
(44:23):
other people do it for me.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
Yeah, it's about doing good for the sake of doing
good, right, because that's whoI want to be.
Because of who you want to be,yes, yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
Yeah, and I'm not waiting for some glorious
mansion, yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
Gold star, gold streets.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
I'm not like, that's not a motivation.
Right, Right Right right, right, and Christians are actually
the foundation of good morals.
We've got a lot of crap we'redealing with in our circles.
Lots of crap.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
Well, I think, of all the villains in this movie.
The villains are all fromwithin.
I mean the, the, the behaviorsthat they projected on these
villains are all their ownbehaviors.
Yeah, yeah, I mean thedogmatism which we've been
talking about.
(45:21):
The complete jerk and that hewas to his wife and our
girlfriend.
You know, he was incrediblydisrespectful and rude to her.
Which patriarchy anybody.
And then you've got the muslimgirl who I I just thought it was
it was is incredibly xenophobic, but also like they had her
(45:44):
getting out of here.
She is in jeans, you know, know, dressed like a conventional
American student, a collegestudent, but then she's got the.
She's wearing a headscarf thatcovers her face.
Like I don't, I've never seenthat.
Like I don't know, I don'tthink that's a thing.
I think if you're covering yourface, you're also wearing the
(46:05):
hijab.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
So Matt came into the room just oh, you weren't
finished Finish what you weregoing to say.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
Well, and that's just a superficial thing, her father
.
I was like I thought he wasgoing to be a good guy.
At first I was like, oh, hesounds like the ideal Christian
patriarch.
He's saying all the same things.
And then, of course, he turnsout.
Well, guess what?
He does turn out to be justlike the Christian patriarchs,
because he throws her outeventually when he finds out
(46:34):
she's a Christian.
Except Christian parents arethrowing out their gay and
transgender kids.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
Right.
And sometimes parents arethrowing out their kids because
they blow the whistle on abuse.
Absolutely.
This happens people.
This happens Absolutely.
And it was funny because Mattwalked in while they were first
introducing I forget her nameand her dad in the car and he
(47:04):
goes, whoop, whoop, whoop.
Bad person alert, bad personalert.
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
The body language, everything.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
We knew he was going to be a villain, even though he
was saying all the and I don'tknow how to say this, but the
way they use diversity with allthe biases, just all the biases,
it just reinforces, yeah, itreinforces.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
It's like almost worse than if it were just a
pure white cast.
Because then, by bringing inthese, quote unquoteunquote,
diverse backgrounds, all they'redoing is reinforcing, just
reinforced, their stereotypes.
Speaker 2 (47:53):
and because yeah, on one hand I was glad, okay, good,
it was an all an all-white cast, but oi, the biases were there
uh, it was so, so disrespectful.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
Um, I mean all the way down to the always cheerful,
wise black man from africa, noless.
Oh, oh, oh, um.
And then also, uh, it wasreally interesting.
How so this girl, the muslimgirl, comes home from school and
we see her getting out her iPod, ipod Nano one of those and
(48:32):
listening to Franklin Graham, aminister by Franklin Graham, and
she lays on her bed like she'slistening to music and somehow
this what eight, nine-year-oldlittle boy sees the name
Franklin Graham and knowsautomatically exactly what's
(48:55):
going on.
Right, right, because he knowsthe names of famous Franklin
yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, preachers ofother religions are, and then
that was the basis for hergetting kicked out of her house.
I also noticed a lot of kind ofspiritual bypassing when she
did come to the church then,after being kicked out, and what
(49:16):
did they say?
Something like it was somethingtrite and like God works all
things together for good, orsomething like that, and it was
just such a.
It was meant to be comforting,but it was such a good example
of spiritual bypassing, of kindof going yep, well, you know,
count it all joy.
I think somewhere that I thinkso.
Speaker 2 (49:36):
I think so too.
You know the thing.
That kind of struck me and Ikind of had to like sit with it
for a bit.
So the Muslim father wasphysically abusive to her and
literally threw her out of thehouse, but then it shows him
sitting on the step sobbingafterwards, and I kind of sat
(49:58):
with that for a bit because, inall fairness, I think my parents
probably felt that type ofgrief too when I was disowned.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
Did they have this space, or were they connected
enough to their emotions toexpress?
Speaker 2 (50:14):
it, and I think is it in how to Kill a Mockingbird,
where she says something alongthe lines of the Bible can, in
the wrong hands, be as bad as abottle of whiskey or as damaging
(50:36):
as a bottle of whiskey.
Speaker 1 (50:38):
Whoa.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
Yeah, and I butchered that phrase, I totally
butchered it, but it's somethinglike that.
Butchered it, but it'ssomething like that, and I think
we've talked about it likeparents who followed Bill
Gothard and who did all thespankings and all the things
it's not just the Muslim parentswho get it wrong and are in
serious grief about theirwayward child.
(51:00):
I think this happens in manyreligions, including
Christianity, and maybe we don'thave to be so divisive.
Maybe we can be an example ofwhat living peacefully with
people we don't agree with lookslike.
Maybe love doesn't have to beor the Bible, or our truth
(51:23):
doesn't have to be like a bottleof whiskey.
Speaker 1 (51:25):
Yeah, and maybe skills like problem solving,
skills like conflict resolution,I think often Even honesty,
even honesty, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:39):
And reflection.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
Yes, yes, are things that are just, they are not
taught, or if they're taught,they're taught in this very
hierarchical way, or what?
Speaker 2 (51:52):
does the Bible tell us about that?
Speaker 1 (51:54):
Right, and often the Bible's interpreted in a very
hierarchical way.
I guess what it's saying islike I think it is so
unfortunate that well-meaningpeople aren't equipped with the
tools to do these things likeconflict resolution, and instead
there's, like this suspicion ofpluralism right, pluralism is a
(52:16):
bad word in these circles theidea that you can have and this
is the thing where Anabaptistsshould be leading the way on
this- I know they should.
Anabaptists were the ones who,hundreds of years ago, were
saying hey, we should be able tochoose our religion and we
shouldn't all have to be part ofthe same religion.
Speaker 2 (52:39):
And we should live peacefully with each other.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
And what that has come to mean, unfortunately, is
we all have to be the same oryou can't be with us.
Yeah, and it's really, reallyunfortunate because I think
whenever we're talking aboutkind of dogmatic, tyrannical,
authoritarian systems whetherit's religion or politics or
(53:04):
anything when we lose thoseskills, then it leads to all
kinds of unnecessary conflictand all kinds of harm.
And I think this is what comesout of having this purist
mindset which, when we thinkthat doing right or wrong comes
down to following the rules ofthe Bible or rules of whatever
(53:26):
or not, we get that very rigidperspective and that very rigid
us versus them perspective onthe world, versus living true to
our own values and recognizing,yeah, others can live true to
their own values too, and itdoesn't need to threaten me.
And that's just not at allencouraged by films like this.
(53:49):
In fact, I wonder who do youthink is the intended audience
for this film?
Is it non-believers?
Is it rank and file?
Who do you think you?
Speaker 2 (54:01):
know again.
I don't know Because I don'tknow, because I don't want to in
any way shame someone who foundthis movie helpful.
Sure, it did have some goodfeel elements and I can see how,
20 years ago, it may havevalidated my faith.
Speaker 1 (54:24):
Oh, yeah, same.
Speaker 2 (54:26):
So my guess is it was probably geared to Christians
who haven't deconstructed.
I don't think that that isnecessarily bad, but I think we
have to figure out a way to dothat in a way that offers
dignity to everybody involvedand honesty about who we are,
(54:50):
not just glorifying theChristian.
Speaker 1 (54:52):
Right, because Is that fair?
Yeah, I mean, I think more thanfair.
I guess I'm far enough removedfrom this worldview that I'm
saying this more as an outsiderto it now, but oftentimes
propaganda is directed towardpeople outside the group.
In my mind, this is propagandadirected to those inside the
(55:15):
group.
It's propaganda that isdirected at young people going
to college and it is teachingthem to go in with defenses.
It's teaching them that theirprofessors are out to get them.
It's putting them in anoppositional mindset and the
(55:36):
bottom line is it's just notbased on reality.
Speaker 2 (55:38):
But I think even broader than that.
It taints our view of what theunbeliever really is.
Speaker 1 (55:47):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (55:48):
And what value the unbeliever has.
Absolutely, and I wonder ifit's not this type of propaganda
that perhaps makes usdisinterested in the single mom
or the immigrant who can't speakour language, or you know
whomever.
Speaker 1 (56:09):
It kills curiosity about any of those situations.
Speaker 2 (56:13):
And if someone is curious, oftentimes they're
curious and want to be helpfulin order to quote, show Jesus
and if the person doesn'treciprocate quickly enough, they
lose interest.
The christian loses interestbecause they can't save them,
and so they move on yeah, it'svery colonist, very colonizing
(56:35):
kind of perspective and guys.
That's exactly what we accusethem of.
Like we can do better, we weshould do better.
I mean, like I think we'reobligated to do better, and the
disinterest and the arrogancethat I have seen so often from
religious systems and leaders.
(56:57):
That's why you're losing churchmembers.
That's why you have the donesand the nons.
Why you have the dones and thenones, it's because they
listened when you talked aboutJesus being a humble carpenter
and sitting with the sinners andeating with the people.
Other people scorned, they tookit seriously.
(57:19):
They took it seriously andthey're frustrated because
you're not.
Yeah, Josh, at some point getsin the professor's space and is
arguing with him and yelled athim because he demanded them to
sign these papers and to believea certain way.
And that was a valid point.
That was an absolute validpoint.
But I had to think you know,Josh, so does your God.
(57:42):
Your God demands as well.
I'm wondering if what you viewas your God you're kind of
projecting onto your professor.
Speaker 1 (57:52):
Yes, well, and that seems to be what the film is
doing, right Again and again,it's projecting the view of it's
a very dualistic model wherethe assumption is oh, these
atheist professors are justdoing the same thing, we are
just in reverse, and that's nottrue.
(58:12):
And I think for me that was thebiggest mental shift.
For me was going from seeingthings as two-sided to seeing
things as having 27 sides, andthe idea of demanding that
(58:35):
someone pick a side like that isyeah, that's the purview of
dogmatic religion, not education.
Speaker 2 (58:41):
There was no space for someone in the class just to
say you gave me a lot to thinkabout.
I don't know.
There was no space for someonein the class, just to say you
gave me a lot to think about, Idon't know yeah.
There was no space for that.
And at one point again, joshwas yelling at the professor and
told him that what he'steaching is anti-theism, which
is that was valid.
(59:02):
That was valid.
The way the professor washandling the class, that was an
absolute valid argument.
But Josh was presenting theexact opposite.
And how was that better?
To me, it would have been atthe end of the movie or at the
end of the class.
Everyone in the class has tostand up.
(59:24):
They were the jury.
They had to decide.
You know, is there a God, isthere not a God?
One or the other.
And of course, every student inthe class stood up and said God
is alive.
Was what they said?
Right, wasn't that what theysaid?
Speaker 1 (59:39):
Or something like that.
Speaker 2 (59:41):
Not one person said hmm, I don't know, but I can't
say with certainty that God isdead or I don't know.
You've given me something tothink about.
Why is there not more space forthat, not just in the movie,
but in our circles?
We have so little space tosimply say I don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
And you know, I think that lack of space for that
kind of thing was a major pointof my disillusionment that just
asking a question, asking anhonest question in good faith,
was dangerous.
Speaker 2 (01:00:19):
Well, and for those of us who can't stop thinking,
yeah, it quickly becomesapparent, or at some point it
becomes apparent that there aresome things we can't know.
And the way it's oftentimespresented is if you reach that
spot, you're out.
(01:00:40):
And then they wonder whythere's people leaving the
church.
It is so insane to me that muchof religion is so, so slow and
almost refuses to see how theirrigid not just a rigid belief,
but a rigid call to action or arigid call to live and exist in
(01:01:07):
this community, is what ispushing people out.
Speaker 1 (01:01:10):
Yeah, yeah, right, and there's often this move to
just double down rather thanadjust.
Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
Can we talk about how much I hate the way they killed
the professor at the end?
Are we allowed to talk aboutthat?
Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
Well, we already warned about spoilers, so why
not?
I was yeah agree yeah, so is heon the way to the concert.
Speaker 2 (01:01:35):
I think that that that where everybody's paths
kind of everyone's going to anews boys concert because
because it's 2014.
Of course they are.
Speaker 1 (01:01:46):
And then he's on his way there and he's in an
accident.
Speaker 2 (01:01:52):
The weather forecast had been clear skies, no rain.
The black missionary had saidit's going to rain and the white
church pastor made fun of himfor saying that because it
totally went against the weatherforecast.
But oh look, the missionary wasright and the magical, yeah,
(01:02:15):
magical, mysterious very lastminute the professor decided he
was going to go to the concert.
And he's on his way and just infront of the pastor.
And well, the pastor and themissionary had stopped at a red
light.
It's raining, cats and dogs,and the professor crosses the
street in front of them anddoesn't let his car come out of
(01:02:38):
nowhere and just take him out,but not totally take him out.
He has three precious minutesto live.
Speaker 1 (01:02:47):
And while they're dying, the missionaries say
something about this being agood thing.
Right?
Because, of course, as he'spraying the sinner's prayer, as
we all know he's going to do, inhis last gasps dying gasps of
(01:03:10):
breath the missionary makes somekind of remark about this being
a good thing, which I.
It strikes me it's like gettinghim to say the quiet part out
loud, thinking that audienceswon't criticize him out of a
fear of it being raciallymotivated.
It wouldn't look good tocriticize the black man.
And so the black man says thething that the white people are
thinking.
Is that overthinking it?
Speaker 2 (01:03:32):
Well, I mean no, I can see how you got there.
I think he was trying to saythat it was a good thing because
heaven's better than earth hasbeen for him, and that, in
actuality, he's going to becelebrating things we know
nothing about.
Speaker 1 (01:03:47):
That's one way to look at it.
Yes, another way to look at itis the bad guy I know Is taken
out.
Speaker 2 (01:03:55):
And the most offensive thing here, the most
offensive thing for me wasliterally, literally, as this
was going on, as the professorwas laying on the pavement in
pouring down rain, barely ableto breathe, duck Dynasty is at
the concert on a screen and hedoes a shout out to Josh.
(01:04:18):
He heard about this kid whotook up a professor and argued
him, and the next song iscommitted to you, this kid.
And then was the call to texteveryone in your contact list
three words God's not dead.
And this is going down as theprofessor is dying.
Speaker 1 (01:04:42):
Poetic justice.
Speaker 2 (01:04:46):
Like, you have to validate the win one more time.
Yeah, one more time yeah whilethe professor is gasping for
breath yeah and I think, andagain, not shame anyone who
participated in this, that isnot at all what I want to do,
but but it hit me as this ideaof texting out these three words
(01:05:09):
God's not dead is such a weakwitnessing.
Speaker 1 (01:05:15):
Who is it going to convince, other than someone
who's already convinced?
Like, what impact is it goingto have?
Speaker 2 (01:05:23):
Right, you know what's hard witnessing the
single mom who's forever havingcar problems and doesn't know
how to line up a mechanic, thekid who needs a babysitter, the
friend who, once again, has gotsomething happening, the person
with mental health struggles,the person who believes a
(01:05:43):
different faith, absolutely,totally different from yours.
But you're trying to hold spacefor them too.
I feel like we want to do thesethings to make us feel like
we're doing something importantand valuable, when really it's
an advertising ploy for thepeople who are telling you to do
(01:06:04):
it.
It was absolutely anadvertising, boy.
Yeah, because you know who wasbuying all those tickets Youth
groups, churches, Yep yep, andthen it became a contest to see
who, like everyone, had to seeit yeah yeah, yeah.
But you know what, though thatwas brilliant marketing strategy
, I mean I have to give themcredit.
Speaker 1 (01:06:24):
I have to give them credit for that brilliant
marketing strategy, because theonly people that it pulled in
were the people who were alreadygoing to be buying tickets or
who would be interested inbuying tickets.
Yeah, talk about guerrillamarketing, because the
filmmakers don't have to pay forall that free advertising.
All that's going out onpeople's phones, boy, that's
(01:06:48):
name of the movie.
Speaker 2 (01:06:50):
Let's be clear I have nothing but happiness for
someone who finds peace withthis and who finds comfort.
Speaker 1 (01:07:01):
Two things can be true.
Two things can be true.
Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
Well, yes, two things can be true, but let's be
honest about what we're doing.
Speaker 1 (01:07:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:07:12):
And let's listen, let's pay attention to what the
people at the top of thehierarchy are telling you to do.
They don't always have yourbest interest in mind.
Sometimes they just simply wantto sell tickets.
Speaker 1 (01:07:26):
Absolutely, absolutely.
They don't always have yourbest interest in mind.
Sometimes they just simply wantto sell tickets, absolutely,
absolutely.
And when you think about theexample of Jesus in the New
Testament, like he did, plentyof discourse and conversation,
but it was with the religiousleaders.
Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
Yeah, and it was, it wasn't with the sinners.
Yeah, yeah and it was, itwasn't with the sinners.
Speaker 1 (01:07:45):
Yeah, the material support for people in need is
just undeniable.
I'm pointing out theinconsistency between what the
Bible says and what theBiblicists say it says Right,
and noting the giant gap betweenthat's all.
That's all.
Speaker 2 (01:08:05):
Exactly.
I hope you enjoyed this today.
I know it was convoluted andmessy and all over the place and
we told you the story so youdon't have to watch it.
Speaker 1 (01:08:17):
Since this wasn't a very structured podcast, maybe
we were able to keep you companyas you're, you know, folding
laundry or driving down the roador something like that, and if
so, then mission accomplished.
Speaker 2 (01:08:31):
And if you did watch it or decide you want to watch
it, we'd love to hear yourfeedback and thoughts and like
let us know what you think.
And maybe we missed something,Maybe we got something wrong.
Speaker 1 (01:08:41):
Right.
Speaker 2 (01:08:41):
Maybe you have more to add to what we said.
Speaker 1 (01:08:44):
Right, and it's really easy to send that kind of
response to us when you clickthe link in our show notes and
can send a text message rightthrough your phone and you don't
have to go look up the emailaddress if you don't want to do
that.
Speaker 2 (01:08:59):
And, as a caveat, if it takes us three days or a week
to get back in touch with you,it's not because we don't love
you.
It's because we're just, youknow, in touch with you.
It's not because we don't loveyou, it's because we're just,
you know, doing all the thingswe are trying to keep our heads
above water.
Speaker 1 (01:09:12):
But, yes, absolutely every, every note, uh, text,
email is uh, greatly, greatlyappreciated and is is is really
the.
The satisfaction is the paymentis our payment, it's our
payment for this hobby we have.
So that really does mean theworld.
Something we've been talkingabout is reading the artist's
(01:09:37):
way and then talking about ithere on the podcast.
I guess if we were betterorganized we might have like an
official book club kind ofsomething official.
But we're just putting this outthere, I guess to hold us
accountable as much as anythingthat we want to do this, and
inviting anyone who wants toread along with us.
I have not read the Artist's Way.
(01:09:58):
I'm familiar with it.
I have heard talk about it, andso I don't know if I'm going to
love it or not.
Talk about it, and so I don'tknow if I'm going to love it or
not, but it seems like it hascontent that could be valuable
to those of us who want to writeor want to have written, and it
might be something we'd enjoygoing through together.
So until next time, take care,folks.
(01:10:21):
Talk to you soon.
Speaker 2 (01:10:36):
Thank you for spending time with us today.
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 1 (01:10:45):
What are your thoughts about college and
recovery from high demandreligion?
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences and we
wanna talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atuncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom.
That's uncoveredlifebeyond atgmailcom.
Speaker 2 (01:11:04):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode Until
next time.
Speaker 1 (01:11:20):
Stay brave, stay bold , stay awkward.
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