November 10, 2024 • 58 mins
Last week we teased a book review for this episode, but--plot twist! We decided Julia Cameron's classic book, The Artist's Way deserves much more time than one episode. Instead, today we're discussing external and internal reasons we might doubt our creative abilities.
First, though, we catch up on each other's lives and congratulate Margaret Schrock on her recent publication, a natural prelude to our topic today! We begin by discussing some of the cultural and social messages many of us have received (especially in conservative religious communities) that tend to devalue artistic self-expression. It's not that we as individuals aren't creative, but that our creative interests are often directly or indirectly stifled, making it very difficult for us to strengthen our creative "muscle."
Over time, these external messages become internalized and continue to block our creativity even if we've consciously moved on to spaces that are more friendly to self-expression. We talk about the need to find and create communities that greet "baby steps" with cheers rather than criticism. Emotionally safe spaces like these help free us from thinking of art as a performance done for the approval of others. Rather, art becomes a way to explore, try something new, take artistic risks, and even fail just for the experience itself and what it can teach us about ourselves.
Do you have a community of creative support like this? Do you wish you had one? We've got great news for you! Listen to the end to hear all about what we have planned for the New Year. We hope you'll send us a text via the link above telling us you're interested and providing your email so we can keep you in the loop as our plans develop.
Show Notes
I'm So Glad You Left Me: 88 Stories of Courage, Self-Love and Personal Growth
The Artist's Way: 30th Anniversary Edition by Julia Cameron
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
This is Rebecca and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path Along the
way, we've uncovered a fewinsights we want to share with
fellow travelers.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up, we are here to cheeryou on and assure you that the
best is yet to come.
Welcome to Uncovered LifeBeyond.
Hello everyone, welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.
(01:08):
This is Naomi and this isRebecca.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
So what has been happening in your world, miss
Naomi Well?
Speaker 1 (01:16):
everything.
Nothing.
We're recording on a Mondaymorning and just coming off of a
weekend where you know it'skind of like nothing happened
but except laundry and moppingthe kitchen floor and those
kinds of things.
Although probably the biggestpositive is that I made some
(01:38):
medication changes last week andso I'm on progesterone now and
within the first day aftertaking it, like I found myself
just doing things like, insteadof like sitting there on the
chair going, I got to get up, Igot to go do this and like
talking myself through it, likeI'm lugging around a 50 pound
(02:00):
bag of potatoes, I'm justgetting up and doing it.
And I even had a migraine thatwas pretty bad, but I still
found myself like I could stillfunction, that's amazing.
You know.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
It's so weird to me that no one in the medical world
denies that hormones are athing.
I'm not sure if I understandwhy there isn't more of an
assumption that we have to dohormone testing.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Well, my understanding is it's because
that, like in perimenopause, thehormones are like all over the
place, and so, like any, a testof where my hormones are today
is not necessarily an indicationof where they're going to be
tomorrow, and what drives uscrazy is the constant change,
(02:48):
and that's but there's nothing.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
There's no way to figure out how to stabilize that
.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
I mean there has to be a Trial and error.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
No trial and error Because I think I mean isn't
there a hormone that stabilizes,so like we are fairly stable
until perimenopause hits.
Well, you know, stable-ish.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
There's a cycle.
There's a predictable cycle.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
So there has to be a way to treat or to not treat,
but to stabilize it.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Well, and I think that's what HRT does, but some
or like the hormonal birthcontrol that I was on.
But the issue is that everybodyis so different.
There are so many differentfactors, people respond
differently to different thingsand it's deeply unsatisfying.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
I was surprised.
I have a kid that reallystruggles with headaches, bad
headaches, and we went to aneurologist who's a headache
specialist and he wanted hormonetesting done.
Oh interesting.
And we were like I was like,yeah, I was wondering about that
.
Yeah, and I'm like, so will youdo that here?
(04:04):
And he's like, oh no, oh no,I'm not a hormone doctor.
If you think hormones are thecause of her headaches and you
are a headache specialist, whywould you not figure that out or
work with a doctor who has yeah, that's.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
I know that's the.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Like I don't.
I do not understand.
We just want cases that areeasy and that we can.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Well, I find that, you know, I so often I'll go to
one doctor with a set ofsymptoms because I'm not sure
who to go to.
But I'll do this one and then,like down the road, I'll find
out that, oh, that symptom isprobably about this other thing
that has nothing to do with that.
Oh, it's just, it's hard, it'shard, it is hard, but.
(04:54):
But I think the takeaway isthat if something isn't working,
it's worth it.
Yeah, and to try.
You know cause, like you know,I had the hysterectomy in June
and I felt a lot better afterthat, but now not so much.
I was having a lot of headaches, and I hear a lot of people
having headaches, and so is thatweather related.
(05:16):
So, there again, this is anallergy issue.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Anyway, sinuses, is it right?
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Who knows?
But anyway, for now I can getup without having to sit there
and psych myself up.
So that's and we take that fora win.
That's a huge win.
So that's what's going on in myworld.
Tell me, you've got more goingon than hormone news.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Oh gosh, I feel and I probably said this last
semester, and if I said it lastsemester, just ignore me I think
this semester might kick mybutt.
It is kicking my butt.
I don't know, I don't know, Idon't know.
I feel like I am just floatingfrom one assignment to the next.
The one class, my favoriteclass.
(06:02):
I spend like half the classtrying to figure out what he
wants from me.
But it's an interesting class,it's a world literature class,
but for one essay there's likefour pages of instructions and
by the time I get to page threeI'm so confused, like can we not
just have bullet points?
This is what you want and letit go, yeah, so yeah, that's
(06:23):
going on.
I'm getting ready for my bigopen house.
You know, just, life Chase isto.
My son is a junior in highschool and he is the soccer
goalie keeper.
No, so sorry, goalie and keeperthe same thing.
So he would be the soccer keeper.
I think soccer goalie thing, sohe would be the soccer keeper,
(06:48):
I think soccer goalie.
Well, no, I'm thinking hockey.
Well, no, no, you can.
You can call a soccer keeper agoalie too, okay, okay, but I
think I don't think you wouldcall him a goalie keeper.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
I don't think that's correct.
I know precious little abouthormones.
I know even less about sports,so yeah, well, um, but anyway,
they keep winning.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
And they topped the school's record for shutouts,
closeout shutouts.
They're called shutouts Uh huh,Um, and they're like one away
from tying the state record.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
That's awesome.
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
So yeah, it's just been exciting, they're in
districts now.
No, yes, I think it's regionalsdistricts and then state, I
think.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
And they're in the second tier, whatever tier that
is.
If we have anyone listening tous who knows their sports?
You may roll your eyes at me.
Chase, does it all the time.
Just roll your eyes with love.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Anyway, I show up and I cheer, yeah, so that's been
fun, that's exciting, and sodoes this involve a lot of
travel.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Yeah, I mean, usually the games are about an hour
away.
Okay, so it's not bad.
When you live in Holmes Countyyou drive an hour for just about
anything.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Wow, that is so cool.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah, very exciting.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
I was wanting to.
I was hoping I could mayberecruit Chase to our school and
we have a pretty good soccerprogram.
But if he's going to play atthat, at that level, he's gonna
set his sights higher, I'mafraid yeah, I I don't know,
he's still not sure if he wantsto play soccer in college.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
He also does pretty well, um, in esports.
Oh yeah, he does actuallyreally well with esports.
So he's like well, do I do thatand I think when and he's also
really good at band, like he'swon several whatever, I don't
know anyway.
So he's basically at the placewhere whoever gives me the best
(08:53):
or the most money, so like ifsomeone wants to give him money
for soccer he'll do that yeahsomeone wants to give money for
esports he'll do that, you know,whatever it is, yeah but he's
looking for money.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
No, I understand that .
I understand that, but I mean,it sounds like he would do well
at a liberal arts campus wherehe could pursue different things
Well, soccer is pretty brutal.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Sports programs are pretty brutal.
I think they practice likethree times a day, yikes, yeah,
yeah, it's pretty brutal.
So my understanding and againthis is me knowing Precious
Little, but my understanding isprobably the notion of doing
band soccer and esports and thenright now he wants to be a
(09:41):
psychiatrist would be a littlebit of an overload.
Yeah, I keep trying to talk himinto optometry.
I think that would be such aneasier life.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
But psychiatrist wow, yeah, Well, so that would mean
med school, right?
Yeah, so going to like aliberal arts school?
I mean, like, my understandingis that with med school you can
go to almost any undergradthrough any undergrad program.
I mean you might have to take afew prerequisites, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
So we'll see, we'll see Very exciting.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
You know he's got options.
That's a great place to be,right, yeah, yeah.
So oh, before we jump into ourtopic for today, I wanted to
give a shout out to my sister,margaret.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Schrock, who, since we're talking about family,
anyway, that's right, that'sright.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
She just had one of her essays published in a
collection.
The title of it is I'm so gladyou left me 88 stories of
courage, self love and personalgrowth, and I learned some
things that I didn't know abouther.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Isn't that fun.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Yeah, yeah, I thought I knew everything.
I thought I knew that wholestory, but I found out a few
more details.
But I think it really ties inwith what we'll be talking about
today and I'm really proud ofher for this out today and I'm
really proud of her for this.
In a lot of ways, she was theone who inspired me to take an
(11:10):
interest in literary kinds ofthings.
I mean, she was the one talkingabout being a journalist years
ago, before I even knew whatthat was, and so she's been a
writer, she's been a readersince very young and it's really
exciting to see that coming tofruition in a publication.
And so this book is availableon Amazon and we'll put the link
(11:32):
in the show notes.
And I think the kind of thecentral theme of this collection
is and reading here from thedescription 88 short true life
stories about women who decidedor were forced to leave life
circumstances that were notserving them anymore.
These disruptions in our livesare for our spiritual and
(11:54):
personal growth.
So lots of experiences.
But definitely check out mysister's chapter, and her name
again is Margaret Schrock, socongratulations, margaret.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
So proud of you and seriously, that is so exciting.
Throwing yourself out therelike that is a whole other game.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
And we are like so excited for you, margaret,
congratulations.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Absolutely.
Hopefully this is just thefirst.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Right, we want to announce more of these this is
just the first Right.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
We want to announce more of these Right.
Right, which is what we'retalking about today.
We're talking about creativeexpression, art, like there's a
whole list of words we could usefor this but we've noticed that
creative expression is often anissue for many of us who come
from more conservative,traditional backgrounds, where
(12:50):
education, personal expression,are not top priorities.
And just to be clear, we're notsaying that people in these
communities aren't creative, butwe're saying these communities
often do very little to nurturecreativity, and so there's a lot
of talent, there's a lot ofability, there's a lot of
(13:12):
satisfaction in life that peoplearen't experiencing because
they haven't been given anopportunity to develop it.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
You know it's so interesting to develop it.
You know it's so interesting soI would have numerous times
heard the phrase, and I heardthis specifically when I was
begging for more of an education.
I would have heard the phraseGod gave you two hands.
Go put them to work, go getbusy.
And internally I was alwayslike but what about the brain he
(13:43):
gave me.
And I've noticed something.
For the most part, you're right.
Creative expression istypically not encouraged.
However, learning how to getaround rules and learning how to
get around roadblocks andlearning how to get around
(14:05):
roadblocks, yes, in order toreach a goal.
we're kind of pretty good at.
Yeah, absolutely Like here inHolmes County several years ago
and it's probably a thing stillthere were groups of Amish who
were not allowed to have acomputer.
But somehow they figured out ifthey built a cage for it.
(14:25):
They then called it a processor, I don't know.
They called it something elseand because it was one complete
unit it wasn't considered acomputer anymore and most
churches accepted it.
But I think you will find a lotof that happening within the
(14:49):
Amish Mennonite communities andI think that's why so many of
them are quite innovative.
I mean, we can figure thingsout, but we just never call it
art Right and it's very muchfocused on the goal.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
It's very goal oriented Right.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
And most times money.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Yeah, I know, yeah, you know we can't make money,
right.
Well, if it's for business,right.
There's a lot of things thatcan be justified.
Lots of caveats.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
There was another Amish church locally who decided
several years ago that if youhad a business you were allowed
to have a cell phone.
And I have one cousin, I adoreher.
She's like, well, shoot, I havea sewing business.
And she went, got herself acell phone and I'm like, dang it
, girl, I love it, like I canget behind that.
It's.
It's, it's, play the game, it's.
(15:42):
Yes, we can all do this.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Oh, absolutely, absolutely, I agree, I agree
it's.
It's not a shortage of naturaltalent, right, exactly that
(16:06):
creative part of us that has notbeen developed, that's not been
cultivated.
I was thinking about differentkinds of blocks, different kinds
of barriers, and I think wecould kind of think of them as
two buckets One is externalreasons, and then there are
internal reasons, and often theinternal reasons kind of grow
(16:26):
out of those external reasons.
So like cultural values, andthat in its different forms, as
well as just daily life and thedemands of adulting.
But what are some culturalvalues or cultural norms that
come to your mind when you thinkabout external blocks to
(16:48):
creativity?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
So we've already kind of addressed the issue that
hard work and tradition tend tobe prioritized over play and
innovation.
And I mean pretty young.
We tend to have our kidsworking, we tend to assign
chores, we tend to have havekids doing their fair share of
(17:13):
the household responsibilities,and while that's not necessarily
all bad, I think sometimes itmight be overdone.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Well, there's just not room left for play, right,
you know?
And we were just talking aboutinnovation a minute ago but I
think the kind of innovationwe're talking about here is like
change, like doing somethingdifferent, like there's this
real resistance to doingsomething different.
So, yeah, we can innovate in aneffort to keep things from
(17:43):
changing, right right, yeah, orto get around rules as an adult.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Yes, yes, yes, but that's not necessarily
encouraged as a child.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Right, and art education is virtually
non-existent.
Now, I remember doing some artclasses in high school.
That was like Christian LightPublications, I think it was
their art curriculum, and it wasvery rudimentary.
It was sketching, you know, andit was about copying models,
(18:19):
that rather than or you know,references, rather than about
any kind of self-expression.
That was the least of theconcerns.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Well, and while I was at school at Shady Grove, art
didn't affect your GPA.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
And so.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
I just found no reason to consider it important,
which is really kind of freaky,because I think I figured that
out in third grade already and Iwas like well, what difference
does it make?
Speaker 1 (18:50):
That's kind of pathetic, well, but you know,
you were picking up from thecommunity, you were picking up
the values, yeah, and I waspretty driven.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
I was pretty driven.
I already knew that my chancesfor high school were pretty
minimal.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
And remember, uh, we weren't allowed to read the lion
(19:27):
, the witch in the wardrobebecause it had talking animals
yeah so did they never readrevelation?
Or balaam the story of balaamright right, right right it was
just assumed that it you know ithad to be satanic if there were
animals talking.
I mean, I don't know, maybethat's overstating it, but just
(19:47):
that suspicion for sure, rightright.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
I've often thought about how it would be if one was
allowed to read the Bible,particularly the Old Testament,
with a little bit of the samewonder or novelty as like Greek
mythology.
And before anyone gets excitedno, I'm not trying to be a
(20:14):
heretic here.
I'm not trying to do that, soplease hang on.
But there is some reallypowerful imagery available.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Oh yeah, but to read it so factually, I think maybe.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Well, that's not the way literature worked in ancient
times.
The idea of journalisticaccuracy or journalistic there's
a word there that I'm grapplingfor, but that was just
objectivity.
That was just not a thing thatI'm grappling for, but like that
was just objectivity.
You know, that was just not athing.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Well, to be fair, when my kids first came home
talking about Greek mythology, Iwould listen and I would be all
like those Greeks, robbed fromour biblical stories.
How dare they?
And it took me a bit to realize.
Oh no, they came first.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
So the reality is probably particularly the Old
Testament we really can't assumeto be completely factual, right
.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
It wasn't written With that intention.
It wasn't understood, not inthe way that we think of it
today.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Right, right and I wonder if that translation isn't
more for our benefit than foranything, because, boy, it feels
good to have the answers and toknow the facts.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Right, right.
Well, it's a very modernistidea, that idea of objectivity.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Then, additionally, we had the Weeby Lambs, we had
Family Life, we had CalvaryMessenger, we had the Martyr's
Mirror.
Which, not to mock the Martyr'sMirror my friend Gerald Mast
always speaks so fondly of itand I shake my head, but I know
he's right.
We probably just shouldn't bereading the Martyr's Mirror in
place of nursery rhymes at ayoung age.
(22:05):
There's a certain level oftrauma associated with that.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
There was a book.
I was trying to remember whatit, dear Princess, that's what
it was.
Do you remember reading that?
Yes, it was.
Let me see here.
It's a Rod and Staff book.
I vaguely remember that.
I remember the one story Iremember from this one chapter
(22:34):
was about a group of girls whowere going on a walk on a Sunday
afternoon and how somebodystopped and Whistled or
something.
I don't remember what it was.
I remember at the time it waspretty traumatizing.
Probably, if we go back andread it now it would be pretty
mild.
Maybe, maybe.
But you know it was buildingthat fear and suspicion of
(23:00):
anyone different, right?
Instead of being curious,instead of being interested, you
saw them anyone from theoutside as predators.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Well, wasn't, and maybe I'm getting my stories
confused, so I hate to say this.
If I am, but weren't theyintending to do harm?
But then, because they weredressed so modestly, they drove
away.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Oh, I'm sure I forgot about that.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
I'm sure that was I'm pretty sure that was part of
that story.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
And it cemented this notion that if we are meek and
mild and demure, then no harmwill befall us.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
And wearing a head covering.
And wearing a head covering yeah, not that it's like a magical
crucifix we wear around our neck, nothing like that, but it's
going to protect us from allkinds of harm.
Yeah, yeah, very different,very different.
So approval, then, is based onperforming community norms.
(23:59):
And I use the word performingthere very intentionally,
because when it's about whenappearance matters so much as it
does in these communities, thenplay and self-expression are
viewed.
It's suspicion, they're seen aschildish, you know, and so it's
(24:19):
as human beings.
It's a basic need to beaccepted by our social group,
and so we learn very early toconform to the social group, to
the norms, cultural norms, andwe learn very quickly to hide
any characteristic that makes usstand out in some way.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Well, and I even think about the ways.
So my sister was an incredibleseamstress, creative, particular
, like an amazing seamstress,but the church rules were so
rigid.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Amazing seamstress, but the church rules were so
rigid and in spite of that, Isaw her still trying to be
creative and work around therules.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
But I used to wonder, or I used to believe, that
those rules were there forprotection and that's how it's
presented, but I think it's moreabout stifling that
self-expression and thatcreativity.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
And.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
I've often wondered what she could have done had she
been fashion, like all thesemeans of self-expression are
(25:44):
demonized or banned.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
It leaves so few approved options for artistic
expression and I think there's.
It doesn't allow for manymodels, doesn't allow for
examples to follow.
It doesn't allow for yeah, itdoes not, it only stifles.
The emphasis is on stiflingcreativity and getting with the
(26:07):
program.
So no wonder we grow up andthink we aren't creative.
Right, right, right.
And it's not just in ourconservative communities either,
I think.
In the broader American culturethere's a tendency to see art,
artistic expression, as kind ofthis extra thing that's not
(26:31):
really necessary but a littlebit frivolous, unless you're
naturally talented and you'reactually really good at it.
Well then we know we can getbehind that, but there's only a
few that are naturally talented,and so if you're not one of
those, why bother?
Speaker 2 (26:47):
and I think, if we're honest about it, when leaders
want to control artistic options, artistic expression, those are
the first things they take awayRight, and I think that's sad.
I think we've lost a lot of artdue to lack of resources, lack
(27:11):
of time, because we believe itdoesn't matter Right.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
And I think it ties in with this larger idea that if
it's not, if it doesn't make usmoney, if it doesn't or doesn't
make somebody money, there's nopoint to it.
And I think there's been a lotof emphasis on your hobby
becoming a side gig, and Iunderstand the need for side
(27:39):
gigs, but I find so much freedomin the fact that we we're not
trying to monetize our podcast,we're just doing it for the fun
of it, and I think there's somuch more, so much more
satisfaction, so much morefreedom in it when we can do
that rather than rather thanjust think of it in terms of
(28:00):
making a profit.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Well, I think we've all seen people who have fun
doing something, make a littlebit money and then all of a
sudden create this platform andit almost feels like they sold
their soul and it almost feelslike they sold their soul, and I
say that as non-judgmentally asI can because I mean I don't
(28:29):
know, I mean probably not goingto happen, but what if one day
we end up making money off ofthis?
But let's not sell our souls inthe process, right?
Speaker 1 (28:33):
right, right.
And again, I recognize latecapitalism being what it is just
finding time for a hobby, letalone one that doesn't help pay
the bills is, can be hard to do.
But I think, yeah, there's a.
And then also, you know contentcreators.
(28:55):
I mean, if you're a writer orif you're an, an artist or
whatever your medium is, youknow you have to be on all the
social medias.
That's what they tell you Allthe social medias.
You have to be sending outemails constantly.
And I, just as I mean I justthis morning, was going through
my inbox and unsubscribing,unsubscribing from all the
(29:19):
newsletters that I don't read.
And it's not that I don't valuethe content behind it or the
creators behind it, I do.
I just there's no time in myday to read all of that and I
just I guess what I'm just allI'm saying is like they're just
doing what the marketing gurusare telling them to do, right,
(29:43):
but I and I have no desire tobecome part of that machine,
right?
Speaker 2 (29:49):
I get that and I think the sad fact of it is
adulting is exhausting.
I talked to a kid who this ishis first year out of college
and I casually was like so how'sadulting going?
And he's like I am exhaustedand I'm like I bet you are.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
And, I'm sorry, adults is facing is a situation
where the living expenses forour basic needs have gone up,
but salaries have not kept pace.
So it's more expensive thanever to have a house, to rent a
place to drive a car, any ofthose things, and buy groceries,
(30:34):
for that matter.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
You know.
One more thing on that note,and I know I have criticized the
whole trad wife movementexperience, whatever you want to
call it, and I am critical ofit.
However, I've wondered if thatis one way those women have been
(30:57):
allowed to have self-expression, because it does bring in money
.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Right, yeah, I think that's a good point.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
So I always cringe a little bit when I criticize the
trad wife gig, and I do becauseI wonder if it isn't a desperate
need to be creative and to havesome form of self-expression.
(31:27):
And so you find out how to dothat, or you figure out how to
do that by following the rulesthat are placed in front of you.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Right, and so maybe it's more about a problem with
the system in which they findthemselves as it is about them
as individuals.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
The insanity of that whole idea is they're telling
women to stay at home and dependon their husbands for financial
support when they themselvesare making money.
It's just like to my brain,it's just insanity.
Like, let me make money,telling you how to stay at home
and not make money, yes, yes, Idon't understand.
(32:08):
I don't understand.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Don't get me started.
I'm just going to take a deepbreath and say absolutely, and
I'm going to move on, because ifI start I might not stop.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
So moving on to the internal reasons that we kind of
stay stuck.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
I think a lot of these grow out of the cultural
norms we were just talking about, and if we've been in an
environment whereself-expression has been
discouraged, then we're probablynot going to feel a lot of
confidence that we have anythingto offer and might just be
afraid we're going to make afool out of ourselves and
they're going to laugh at us orwhatever.
(32:51):
But then I think the flip sideis, if someone is told your
stuff is good, you are smart,you are brilliant, all this,
they can also feel stuck becausethey know they might not be
more aware of their ownlimitations and might be afraid
they can't live up to theexpectations.
And so I think, either way,this is a fear that's almost
(33:16):
universal, and I think it'sworth thinking about where it
comes from in our particularcase, and realizing external
approval is not the point.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Right.
But I do think, and especiallyfor those of us raised in the
Amish Mennonite community, thiswhole notion of humility and
never putting yourself out there, I mean, god forbid, you're
called fawitsi.
Oh yeah, see, it's so fawitsi.
I mean that is like the slam.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
And how would you even begin to translate that
word?
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Isn't it forward?
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Yeah, she puts herself forward, I think is the
translation it's initiative,taking yeah, yeah forward.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
I think is the translation it's initiative
taking, yeah, and maybe justslightly too eager.
She doesn't know her place.
So I mean, if you're calledthat a few times, this whole
notion of making a fool out ofyourself I mean your
self-protection is going to setin, yes, and you don't want to
(34:20):
experience that again.
And so you adapt, you changeand invariably that becomes this
skill of making yourselfsmaller.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Blending in, yeah Right, figuring out what's
acceptable.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
And maybe the only way I can be that is by being a
trad wife or whatever other fewoptions are available.
But then we're going to be thedang best trad wife we've ever
been or that has ever been.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Right, right.
And if your house is clean, ifyour garden is weeded and
well-kept, if your flower bedslook good, there's not going to
be time.
There's not going to be time.
There's not going to be timefor anything else.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
An Amish couple just moved next door to us and I'm
pretty convinced they were justdespairing over my poor garden.
I felt like I should goapologize to them.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
They're beautiful people, they're wonderful people
, but I was aware, I was veryaware that's so good.
Yeah, I mean, and I think thesemessages come in the most, I
mean they can come in the mostinnocuous ways.
I mean I just think of my ownexperience when I was a kid, in
my tween years, where I hadtaken an interest in drawing,
(35:39):
and you know when it was nothing.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
I know your daughter.
Before you say it was nothing,I bet it was pretty dang good.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Oh, it was not.
It was no, no, no, no, you aretoo kind.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
But she's had more resources and encouragement than
you had.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Right, right, right, and I think I, yes, absolutely I
agree.
So so what I'm saying is, yeah,I didn't get far at all down
the developmental path, gotcha,but I remember drawing a picture
that I was pretty proud of andshowing it to a, an extended
(36:18):
family member that I had, atleast in my mind, had kind of
bonded with earlier over kind ofartistic interests, and showing
this and not getting thereaction that I'd hoped for, and
really feeling crushed by it.
And looking back now you knowthat family member had no idea
(36:41):
what was going on in my head andthat family member had plenty
of other things on her mind.
Like I don't.
I look back on that with noanimosity, right, but it had a
dampening effect for sure, muchdifferent effect than if there
had been a positive reaction.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
I think we should talk about this because I'm not
sure that many of us know how totruly sincerely, openly be
affirming to someone elseaffirming to someone else.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
How many times has anyone been that way to us when
we were growing up?
And yes, I think so often.
In our world, intelligence is,at least certainly in the
literary world, intelligence isoften seen as how finely you can
criticize something, howfine-tuned, how in the weeds
your criticism can be.
But that may or may not be whatyou're thinking of.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Well, but haven't you heard the phrase of and I'm
thinking back to more ourexperience growing up?
But you know well, we've got tobring him down in peg oh yeah,
yeah, for sure, for sure.
And I think there's this sensethat the playing field is so
small.
Yes, competition isn't welcomed.
(38:05):
Yes, and I think sometimes thatthe sense of actually being
good at something is sounderdeveloped that if you have
a little bit of that, you kindof want to protect that.
But then, to be fair, I thinkemotional intelligence might be
(38:27):
quite low sometimes as well,because, if you think about it,
the people who are affirming,the people who are gracious and
encouraging and give curiousresponses about your work are
the ones who tend to be a littlebit more emotionally mature.
(38:47):
Yes, yeah, so I mean I thinkthere's a whole mix of reasons
for it, but I think we need totalk about it because I mean,
I've been in a writer's groupwhere it was crushing the
responses I got.
I went home and didn't writeagain for months.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
That's awful.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
It is awful and there's a part of me that is
angry that I left.
It affect me the way it didTurns out you're human.
It turns out you're human.
It turns out I'm human.
But I think, I think maybe whatI want to say is, if you get
negative feedback, and evensomewhat crushing feedback, it's
not you right, it's not aboutyou, it's not about your art,
(39:34):
it's not about your work.
It is so much more reflectionof that person and even though
you consider that person to bebetter than you and you were
hoping maybe to learn from them,they're not your person.
Move on, don't stop.
Don't think that there's no oneout there for you.
Just keep looking, keep asking,keep putting yourself out there
(39:57):
and then take really good careto make sure that we treat those
coming after us differently.
Let's treat those people better.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
Absolutely, and I think what I have learned as a
teacher of writing is that it'scompletely useless to evaluate
someone as a writer, becausethere's just no way to
objectively do that.
What we can do is evaluate thedraft we have in front of us,
(40:32):
but that's all it is, and thatsays nothing about an
individual's capability, theircapacity, it says nothing about
where that piece of writingcould go and whatever boost
natural talent offers.
There's just so manyconfounding variables that, at
(40:55):
the end of the day, it says solittle, so little about a
person's potential.
And, as I tell my students, thedifference between an awesome
writer and a mediocre writer isjust how many drafts they went
through.
The mediocre writer went okay,this is good and let it go, and
(41:19):
the great writer kept on, buttheir first drafts were pretty
much the same, pretty much thesame quality.
So, even if somebody is juststarting out and what they're
producing is not up to thehighest standards or whatever,
however you want to say that, sowhat?
(41:41):
That's not the point.
That's not the point and itsays nothing about what they are
capable of.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
You know you're good at this and I've learned from
you, but I think some of thethings that people have done for
me that have been most helpful,that people have done for me
that have been most helpful andyou've done this for me is
instead said things like this isreally interesting, this line
here is really interesting.
Tell me more about that.
Or I'm not sure that thisphrase is telling me anything
(42:13):
important.
What do you mean by that?
Just by asking questions andexpressing curiosity and what is
read kind of can help organizethe message in someone's brain,
or the intended message yeahabsolutely it can bring clarity.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Yeah, yeah, we call that reading like a reader.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it is.
It's like reflecting and say,okay, as a reader, this is what
I'm thinking, and it's just kindof being a mirror and a mirror
for the writer and saying, okay,this is the feeling I'm getting
.
Is that what you were going for?
To me, the best kind offeedback is feedback that starts
(42:58):
by asking what are your goalsfor this?
What do you need from me?
Because sometimes, when someoneasks for feedback, they just
want to know am I doing anythingmajorly wrong in here?
That's going to get me a zero.
Other times it's like, hey, I'mjust trying to figure out what
I'm trying to say, and theyreally want you to get in the
(43:18):
weeds and the piece belongs tothe writer.
And, as someone who is givingfeedback, all I can do is read
as a reader and say here's whatI'm experiencing.
Is this what you want to?
Does this fit your goals?
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Yeah, I think criticism and receiving it and
knowing when to just let it gois so valuable, is so valuable.
Not everyone who has written abook wishes to share their
(43:57):
experience with me, and that'sokay, but then I'm not going to
take any negativity from themseriously either.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
And that was kind of where I had to get to.
And, at the end of the day, thepeople who've issued some of
the most harsh, weirdestcriticism.
I don't really want to tradeplaces with them.
I don't really want to be thetype of writer they are anyway.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
You're into two different wavelengths.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Right.
So I think, instead of ifcriticism devastates you, it's
valid.
Typically it's valid, but don'tinternalize it, the devastation
is valid.
The devastation?
Yes, thank you for clarifyingthat.
The devastation is valid.
It was probably delivered in ahorrible way, yeah, but I'm
betting the criticism wasn'tvalid.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
Yeah, absolutely Absolutely, and I think, whether
or not it was valid, I thinkit's worth it to be aware that
when we spent our formativeyears hearing criticism as a
judgment of our moral worth, ofwho we are, you know, as a good
(45:11):
person or not, a person, who'sgoing to heaven or hell, you
know, our nervous system isprimed to be incredibly
sensitive to any kind ofperceived criticism and I know
for myself.
I've had experiences where Igot feedback on something and I
(45:32):
read through it and I thought itwas all negative, negative,
negative.
And two weeks later I looked atit again and I was like what
was I even looking at?
It was like seeing a differentdocument.
And then, further, I had aconversation with a person who
wrote the letter and nocriticism was the last thing.
(45:56):
And then I realized I learnedultimately or eventually.
Then in time, I learned aboutsome of the dynamics going on in
the background and understoodsome of the coded language.
But there was other stuff goingon and it was not a criticism
of me, but I was feeling veryvulnerable in the moment and I
(46:19):
read it as that and so, yeah, sothe feeling is genuine.
I guess for me it's beenfreeing to learn to catch myself
in that feeling, that horriblefeeling of being criticized, and
go oh, this is not everything,you know, this is not.
(46:40):
This might not be as much of acriticism as it feels like it is
.
Speaker 2 (46:46):
And maybe it's my seven-year-old self who thinks I
got something wrong and I'mgoing to hell Like maybe it's
not the adult version of methat's responding.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
Yeah, yeah, and so that's yeah, and I think that's
it's freeing.
For me it's been freeing.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
And I think it's really important.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
Yeah, and I think this helps us get comfortable
with, or more comfortable with,the vulnerability of the process
of learning.
And you know, and I find like Ispend most of the semester
where I'm teaching first yearcollege students preaching until
their ears bleed about what isinvolved in learning and about
(47:27):
learning is not about aperformance of what you know.
Learning is about trying andexperimenting and vulnerability.
You know, my favorite exampleand I probably have already said
it on the podcast is, like youknow, when a kid takes their
first step, the next thing thathappens is they fall over and we
(47:49):
don't say, oh, I guess this kidis just never going to walk.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
They're just not cut out.
Walking probably isn't for them.
It's probably not for them.
Speaker 1 (47:59):
They're not naturally talented in the gift of walking
, no, so I guess they betterjust get used to crawling and
scooting on their butt.
Yeah, you know, and I know wecheer that they took a step and
I just wish we were that waywhen it came to creative
self-expression.
So we've talked about some ofthese external and some of these
internal blocks.
(48:20):
Why bother trying to get intouch or kind of reignite that
creative capacity that I thinkwe were all born with?
Why bother I think that's animportant question to ask why go
through the discomfort of beingawkward and doing things for
(48:41):
the first time and flubbing themand trying again?
Speaker 2 (48:45):
So I realized when the kids went to college they
were emotionally healthier andhappier when they had at least
one art class in their semesterand at first I was like, oh,
that was interesting for that.
And I think we were all bornwith the capacity to be creative
(49:12):
and I wonder if we would not bebetter, a more healthy self, if
we are allowed ourselves to tapinto it and if we were
encouraged to do that Right, andnot as like, oh, here's another
obligation to put on your to-dolist, but more as kind of
collective permission to pursuesomething that we do just for
(49:35):
the fun of it, just because it'syou know like.
Speaker 1 (49:39):
I doodle calligraphy.
I've done it my whole life.
Well, my whole life, most of myyeah, ever since I could, and
it's gotten me through many long, boring sermons.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
Is there a beachy girl who did not practice
calligraphy in church?
Speaker 1 (49:58):
Well, you know, it can pass as note-taking, so it
gives me pleasure just becauseit's fun.
And what if that's enough of areason to do it and to make time
for, whether it's creativity interms of, well, maybe flower
(50:19):
beds or macrame or sewing orwhatever.
I mean it could be a skill likethat, but it could also be
writing, it could also bedrawing or painting or music.
Speaker 2 (50:32):
You know, I think that whole process can bring us
surprised insight, it can createa community, it can give you
satisfaction and it can be fun.
But I think for myself.
I have a friend who isintentional about being playful.
She talks about being playfuland I have intentionally
(50:55):
observed her and the way sheinteracts with the world around
her and I've realized howimportant it is little selves
inside of us who want to createand who want to be allowed to
play and some of us, I think,probably have playtime that we
(51:16):
need to catch up for, that weweren't allowed to have Right,
and I think it could be a verypowerful way to reparent
yourself.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
And when we think about play,for a child to be able to play,
there has to be a sense ofsafety, emotional safety.
They can't be on guard.
Speaker 2 (51:53):
There's an element of I'm seeing how high I can stack
these blocks and then they'regoing to fall over and that's
going to be fun, and then I'mjust going to do it again, just
because it's fun.
Yeah, wow, wow, and that's allthat's necessary.
Speaker 1 (51:57):
Yeah, that's all, that's all.
So I think the challenge for usis to for many of us anyway to,
in recapturing this to helpcreate a sense of community
where it's safe for others tojoin in and we can be.
We can, we can create that safeplace for play, for creative
(52:20):
expression amongst ourselves,and this leads us into this fun
thing that-.
Speaker 2 (52:28):
An exciting announcement.
Speaker 1 (52:33):
Something's coming, as they all say yeah.
So recently, book the Artist'sWay by Julia Cameron has come to
our awareness and it's one ofthese books that's been around
since I think first edition cameout in 1992.
It's been around for a longtime.
Elizabeth Gilbert said that Eat, pray, love would never have
(52:53):
happened if it hadn't been forthis book.
So in reading it and oh, and Ishould also did I say what the
title is the Artist's Way,anyway, a Spiritual Path to
Higher Creativity the subtitle,and it's a 12-week process of
exercises and tools fordeveloping creativity.
(53:14):
And we were thinking about doinga review of the book and then,
as we got more familiar with it,thought, wow, this would be fun
to do as a 12-week process andsee if anybody wants to join us
in doing this after the first ofthe year.
That would give us giveeverybody some time to get a
(53:35):
copy of the book and getfamiliar with it and see if this
is something that they'd beinterested in.
But we're thinking of a virtualgroup where we could encourage
each other, we could workthrough the book together and
that this would be a place forthose who wonder if they could
(53:56):
be a writer but aren't even surewhere to start, where they
would even go to find out.
This is not for the elitecritics or anyone like that.
This is for learners and peoplewho want to experiment and play
and encourage each other.
Speaker 2 (54:14):
So if you have any interest at all in joining us,
first of all put the book onyour Christmas wishlist or just
buy it for yourself.
That's fine too, but text usand let us know.
And even if you text us, you'renot committing to anything.
Um, you're just going to be puton the list and I don't expect
(54:37):
to have 30 people texting us,but at some point we'll probably
have to have a cutoff, becauseI mean realistically, probably
not more than 12 people.
Speaker 1 (54:49):
Agreed, agreed.
Speaker 2 (54:51):
And there will probably be a small fee, but
this is truly for anyone whowishes to develop their
creativity, who wishes to have aplace to be curious and to play
, and we hope you decide to joinus.
Speaker 1 (55:09):
Absolutely, and we'll keep talking about it in the
weeks that come and provide moreinformation as we figure it out
.
Speaker 2 (55:19):
Not like we're making anything up on the fly here.
Speaker 1 (55:24):
I think this could be so rewarding and so much fun,
especially when we might befilling in the gaps of things we
didn't our younger selvesdidn't have, and I think it's
just a really lovely thing whenwe can do that for each other
and maybe feel a little lessalone as we try to figure these
things out as we go.
Speaker 2 (55:43):
I'm so excited.
Speaker 1 (55:45):
I think it's going to be a lot of fun.
I really do, I really do.
I think it's going to be a lotof fun.
I really do, I really do andI've been listening to the audio
versions of this author's work.
I still have to read the bookmyself, but from what I've heard
from it so far, I think herperspective is one that's going
to resonate with a lot of thekinds of things many of us are
(56:09):
dealing with, so I'm reallyexcited about that.
All right, well, until wefigure things out for our next
podcast.
Speaker 2 (56:18):
so long, Don't forget to text us.
We want to hear from you.
Speaker 1 (56:21):
Oh, that's right.
Yes, and there's.
The link is in the show notes.
Says text us to send us a line.
I'm in, and oh, they shouldprobably send their email.
Right, I'm in, and yeah, and,and your email, so we can put
you on the list and we'll keepyou up to date.
(56:42):
All right, catch y'all later.
Speaker 2 (56:45):
Talk to you soon.
Thank you for spending timewith us today.
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond what?
Speaker 1 (57:08):
are your thoughts about college and recovery from
high demand religion.
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences and we
wanna talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atuncoveredlifebeyondatgmailcom.
That'suncoveredlifebeyondatgmailcom.
Speaker 2 (57:27):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode Until
next time stay brave, stay bold,stay awkward.
This is Rebecca and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path Along the
way, we've uncovered a fewinsights we want to share with
fellow travelers.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up, we are here to cheeryou on and assure you that the
best is yet to come.
Welcome to Uncovered LifeBeyond.
Hello everyone, welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.
(01:08):
This is Naomi and this isRebecca.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
So what has been happening in your world, miss
Naomi Well?
Speaker 1 (01:16):
everything.
Nothing.
We're recording on a Mondaymorning and just coming off of a
weekend where you know it'skind of like nothing happened
but except laundry and moppingthe kitchen floor and those
kinds of things.
Although probably the biggestpositive is that I made some
(01:38):
medication changes last week andso I'm on progesterone now and
within the first day aftertaking it, like I found myself
just doing things like, insteadof like sitting there on the
chair going, I got to get up, Igot to go do this and like
talking myself through it, likeI'm lugging around a 50 pound
(02:00):
bag of potatoes, I'm justgetting up and doing it.
And I even had a migraine thatwas pretty bad, but I still
found myself like I could stillfunction, that's amazing.
You know.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
It's so weird to me that no one in the medical world
denies that hormones are athing.
I'm not sure if I understandwhy there isn't more of an
assumption that we have to dohormone testing.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Well, my understanding is it's because
that, like in perimenopause, thehormones are like all over the
place, and so, like any, a testof where my hormones are today
is not necessarily an indicationof where they're going to be
tomorrow, and what drives uscrazy is the constant change,
(02:48):
and that's but there's nothing.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
There's no way to figure out how to stabilize that
.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
I mean there has to be a Trial and error.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
No trial and error Because I think I mean isn't
there a hormone that stabilizes,so like we are fairly stable
until perimenopause hits.
Well, you know, stable-ish.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
There's a cycle.
There's a predictable cycle.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
So there has to be a way to treat or to not treat,
but to stabilize it.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Well, and I think that's what HRT does, but some
or like the hormonal birthcontrol that I was on.
But the issue is that everybodyis so different.
There are so many differentfactors, people respond
differently to different thingsand it's deeply unsatisfying.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
I was surprised.
I have a kid that reallystruggles with headaches, bad
headaches, and we went to aneurologist who's a headache
specialist and he wanted hormonetesting done.
Oh interesting.
And we were like I was like,yeah, I was wondering about that
.
Yeah, and I'm like, so will youdo that here?
(04:04):
And he's like, oh no, oh no,I'm not a hormone doctor.
If you think hormones are thecause of her headaches and you
are a headache specialist, whywould you not figure that out or
work with a doctor who has yeah, that's.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
I know that's the.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Like I don't.
I do not understand.
We just want cases that areeasy and that we can.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Well, I find that, you know, I so often I'll go to
one doctor with a set ofsymptoms because I'm not sure
who to go to.
But I'll do this one and then,like down the road, I'll find
out that, oh, that symptom isprobably about this other thing
that has nothing to do with that.
Oh, it's just, it's hard, it'shard, it is hard, but.
(04:54):
But I think the takeaway isthat if something isn't working,
it's worth it.
Yeah, and to try.
You know cause, like you know,I had the hysterectomy in June
and I felt a lot better afterthat, but now not so much.
I was having a lot of headaches, and I hear a lot of people
having headaches, and so is thatweather related.
(05:16):
So, there again, this is anallergy issue.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Anyway, sinuses, is it right?
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Who knows?
But anyway, for now I can getup without having to sit there
and psych myself up.
So that's and we take that fora win.
That's a huge win.
So that's what's going on in myworld.
Tell me, you've got more goingon than hormone news.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Oh gosh, I feel and I probably said this last
semester, and if I said it lastsemester, just ignore me I think
this semester might kick mybutt.
It is kicking my butt.
I don't know, I don't know, Idon't know.
I feel like I am just floatingfrom one assignment to the next.
The one class, my favoriteclass.
(06:02):
I spend like half the classtrying to figure out what he
wants from me.
But it's an interesting class,it's a world literature class,
but for one essay there's likefour pages of instructions and
by the time I get to page threeI'm so confused, like can we not
just have bullet points?
This is what you want and letit go, yeah, so yeah, that's
(06:23):
going on.
I'm getting ready for my bigopen house.
You know, just, life Chase isto.
My son is a junior in highschool and he is the soccer
goalie keeper.
No, so sorry, goalie and keeperthe same thing.
So he would be the soccer keeper.
I think soccer goalie thing, sohe would be the soccer keeper,
(06:48):
I think soccer goalie.
Well, no, I'm thinking hockey.
Well, no, no, you can.
You can call a soccer keeper agoalie too, okay, okay, but I
think I don't think you wouldcall him a goalie keeper.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
I don't think that's correct.
I know precious little abouthormones.
I know even less about sports,so yeah, well, um, but anyway,
they keep winning.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
And they topped the school's record for shutouts,
closeout shutouts.
They're called shutouts Uh huh,Um, and they're like one away
from tying the state record.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
That's awesome.
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
So yeah, it's just been exciting, they're in
districts now.
No, yes, I think it's regionalsdistricts and then state, I
think.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
And they're in the second tier, whatever tier that
is.
If we have anyone listening tous who knows their sports?
You may roll your eyes at me.
Chase, does it all the time.
Just roll your eyes with love.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Anyway, I show up and I cheer, yeah, so that's been
fun, that's exciting, and sodoes this involve a lot of
travel.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Yeah, I mean, usually the games are about an hour
away.
Okay, so it's not bad.
When you live in Holmes Countyyou drive an hour for just about
anything.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Wow, that is so cool.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah, very exciting.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
I was wanting to.
I was hoping I could mayberecruit Chase to our school and
we have a pretty good soccerprogram.
But if he's going to play atthat, at that level, he's gonna
set his sights higher, I'mafraid yeah, I I don't know,
he's still not sure if he wantsto play soccer in college.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
He also does pretty well, um, in esports.
Oh yeah, he does actuallyreally well with esports.
So he's like well, do I do thatand I think when and he's also
really good at band, like he'swon several whatever, I don't
know anyway.
So he's basically at the placewhere whoever gives me the best
(08:53):
or the most money, so like ifsomeone wants to give him money
for soccer he'll do that yeahsomeone wants to give money for
esports he'll do that, you know,whatever it is, yeah but he's
looking for money.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
No, I understand that .
I understand that, but I mean,it sounds like he would do well
at a liberal arts campus wherehe could pursue different things
Well, soccer is pretty brutal.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Sports programs are pretty brutal.
I think they practice likethree times a day, yikes, yeah,
yeah, it's pretty brutal.
So my understanding and againthis is me knowing Precious
Little, but my understanding isprobably the notion of doing
band soccer and esports and thenright now he wants to be a
(09:41):
psychiatrist would be a littlebit of an overload.
Yeah, I keep trying to talk himinto optometry.
I think that would be such aneasier life.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
But psychiatrist wow, yeah, Well, so that would mean
med school, right?
Yeah, so going to like aliberal arts school?
I mean, like, my understandingis that with med school you can
go to almost any undergradthrough any undergrad program.
I mean you might have to take afew prerequisites, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
So we'll see, we'll see Very exciting.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
You know he's got options.
That's a great place to be,right, yeah, yeah.
So oh, before we jump into ourtopic for today, I wanted to
give a shout out to my sister,margaret.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Schrock, who, since we're talking about family,
anyway, that's right, that'sright.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
She just had one of her essays published in a
collection.
The title of it is I'm so gladyou left me 88 stories of
courage, self love and personalgrowth, and I learned some
things that I didn't know abouther.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Isn't that fun.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Yeah, yeah, I thought I knew everything.
I thought I knew that wholestory, but I found out a few
more details.
But I think it really ties inwith what we'll be talking about
today and I'm really proud ofher for this out today and I'm
really proud of her for this.
In a lot of ways, she was theone who inspired me to take an
(11:10):
interest in literary kinds ofthings.
I mean, she was the one talkingabout being a journalist years
ago, before I even knew whatthat was, and so she's been a
writer, she's been a readersince very young and it's really
exciting to see that coming tofruition in a publication.
And so this book is availableon Amazon and we'll put the link
(11:32):
in the show notes.
And I think the kind of thecentral theme of this collection
is and reading here from thedescription 88 short true life
stories about women who decidedor were forced to leave life
circumstances that were notserving them anymore.
These disruptions in our livesare for our spiritual and
(11:54):
personal growth.
So lots of experiences.
But definitely check out mysister's chapter, and her name
again is Margaret Schrock, socongratulations, margaret.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
So proud of you and seriously, that is so exciting.
Throwing yourself out therelike that is a whole other game.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
And we are like so excited for you, margaret,
congratulations.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Absolutely.
Hopefully this is just thefirst.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Right, we want to announce more of these this is
just the first Right.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
We want to announce more of these Right.
Right, which is what we'retalking about today.
We're talking about creativeexpression, art, like there's a
whole list of words we could usefor this but we've noticed that
creative expression is often anissue for many of us who come
from more conservative,traditional backgrounds, where
(12:50):
education, personal expression,are not top priorities.
And just to be clear, we're notsaying that people in these
communities aren't creative, butwe're saying these communities
often do very little to nurturecreativity, and so there's a lot
of talent, there's a lot ofability, there's a lot of
(13:12):
satisfaction in life that peoplearen't experiencing because
they haven't been given anopportunity to develop it.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
You know it's so interesting to develop it.
You know it's so interesting soI would have numerous times
heard the phrase, and I heardthis specifically when I was
begging for more of an education.
I would have heard the phraseGod gave you two hands.
Go put them to work, go getbusy.
And internally I was alwayslike but what about the brain he
(13:43):
gave me.
And I've noticed something.
For the most part, you're right.
Creative expression istypically not encouraged.
However, learning how to getaround rules and learning how to
get around roadblocks andlearning how to get around
(14:05):
roadblocks, yes, in order toreach a goal.
we're kind of pretty good at.
Yeah, absolutely Like here inHolmes County several years ago
and it's probably a thing stillthere were groups of Amish who
were not allowed to have acomputer.
But somehow they figured out ifthey built a cage for it.
(14:25):
They then called it a processor, I don't know.
They called it something elseand because it was one complete
unit it wasn't considered acomputer anymore and most
churches accepted it.
But I think you will find a lotof that happening within the
(14:49):
Amish Mennonite communities andI think that's why so many of
them are quite innovative.
I mean, we can figure thingsout, but we just never call it
art Right and it's very muchfocused on the goal.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
It's very goal oriented Right.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
And most times money.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Yeah, I know, yeah, you know we can't make money,
right.
Well, if it's for business,right.
There's a lot of things thatcan be justified.
Lots of caveats.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
There was another Amish church locally who decided
several years ago that if youhad a business you were allowed
to have a cell phone.
And I have one cousin, I adoreher.
She's like, well, shoot, I havea sewing business.
And she went, got herself acell phone and I'm like, dang it
, girl, I love it, like I canget behind that.
It's.
It's, it's, play the game, it's.
(15:42):
Yes, we can all do this.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Oh, absolutely, absolutely, I agree, I agree
it's.
It's not a shortage of naturaltalent, right, exactly that
(16:06):
creative part of us that has notbeen developed, that's not been
cultivated.
I was thinking about differentkinds of blocks, different kinds
of barriers, and I think wecould kind of think of them as
two buckets One is externalreasons, and then there are
internal reasons, and often theinternal reasons kind of grow
(16:26):
out of those external reasons.
So like cultural values, andthat in its different forms, as
well as just daily life and thedemands of adulting.
But what are some culturalvalues or cultural norms that
come to your mind when you thinkabout external blocks to
(16:48):
creativity?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
So we've already kind of addressed the issue that
hard work and tradition tend tobe prioritized over play and
innovation.
And I mean pretty young.
We tend to have our kidsworking, we tend to assign
chores, we tend to have havekids doing their fair share of
(17:13):
the household responsibilities,and while that's not necessarily
all bad, I think sometimes itmight be overdone.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Well, there's just not room left for play, right,
you know?
And we were just talking aboutinnovation a minute ago but I
think the kind of innovationwe're talking about here is like
change, like doing somethingdifferent, like there's this
real resistance to doingsomething different.
So, yeah, we can innovate in aneffort to keep things from
(17:43):
changing, right right, yeah, orto get around rules as an adult.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Yes, yes, yes, but that's not necessarily
encouraged as a child.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Right, and art education is virtually
non-existent.
Now, I remember doing some artclasses in high school.
That was like Christian LightPublications, I think it was
their art curriculum, and it wasvery rudimentary.
It was sketching, you know, andit was about copying models,
(18:19):
that rather than or you know,references, rather than about
any kind of self-expression.
That was the least of theconcerns.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Well, and while I was at school at Shady Grove, art
didn't affect your GPA.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
And so.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
I just found no reason to consider it important,
which is really kind of freaky,because I think I figured that
out in third grade already and Iwas like well, what difference
does it make?
Speaker 1 (18:50):
That's kind of pathetic, well, but you know,
you were picking up from thecommunity, you were picking up
the values, yeah, and I waspretty driven.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
I was pretty driven.
I already knew that my chancesfor high school were pretty
minimal.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
And remember, uh, we weren't allowed to read the lion
(19:27):
, the witch in the wardrobebecause it had talking animals
yeah so did they never readrevelation?
Or balaam the story of balaamright right, right right it was
just assumed that it you know ithad to be satanic if there were
animals talking.
I mean, I don't know, maybethat's overstating it, but just
(19:47):
that suspicion for sure, rightright.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
I've often thought about how it would be if one was
allowed to read the Bible,particularly the Old Testament,
with a little bit of the samewonder or novelty as like Greek
mythology.
And before anyone gets excitedno, I'm not trying to be a
(20:14):
heretic here.
I'm not trying to do that, soplease hang on.
But there is some reallypowerful imagery available.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Oh yeah, but to read it so factually, I think maybe.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Well, that's not the way literature worked in ancient
times.
The idea of journalisticaccuracy or journalistic there's
a word there that I'm grapplingfor, but that was just
objectivity.
That was just not a thing thatI'm grappling for, but like that
was just objectivity.
You know, that was just not athing.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Well, to be fair, when my kids first came home
talking about Greek mythology, Iwould listen and I would be all
like those Greeks, robbed fromour biblical stories.
How dare they?
And it took me a bit to realize.
Oh no, they came first.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
So the reality is probably particularly the Old
Testament we really can't assumeto be completely factual, right
.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
It wasn't written With that intention.
It wasn't understood, not inthe way that we think of it
today.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Right, right and I wonder if that translation isn't
more for our benefit than foranything, because, boy, it feels
good to have the answers and toknow the facts.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Right, right.
Well, it's a very modernistidea, that idea of objectivity.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Then, additionally, we had the Weeby Lambs, we had
Family Life, we had CalvaryMessenger, we had the Martyr's
Mirror.
Which, not to mock the Martyr'sMirror my friend Gerald Mast
always speaks so fondly of itand I shake my head, but I know
he's right.
We probably just shouldn't bereading the Martyr's Mirror in
place of nursery rhymes at ayoung age.
(22:05):
There's a certain level oftrauma associated with that.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
There was a book.
I was trying to remember whatit, dear Princess, that's what
it was.
Do you remember reading that?
Yes, it was.
Let me see here.
It's a Rod and Staff book.
I vaguely remember that.
I remember the one story Iremember from this one chapter
(22:34):
was about a group of girls whowere going on a walk on a Sunday
afternoon and how somebodystopped and Whistled or
something.
I don't remember what it was.
I remember at the time it waspretty traumatizing.
Probably, if we go back andread it now it would be pretty
mild.
Maybe, maybe.
But you know it was buildingthat fear and suspicion of
(23:00):
anyone different, right?
Instead of being curious,instead of being interested, you
saw them anyone from theoutside as predators.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Well, wasn't, and maybe I'm getting my stories
confused, so I hate to say this.
If I am, but weren't theyintending to do harm?
But then, because they weredressed so modestly, they drove
away.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Oh, I'm sure I forgot about that.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
I'm sure that was I'm pretty sure that was part of
that story.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
And it cemented this notion that if we are meek and
mild and demure, then no harmwill befall us.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
And wearing a head covering.
And wearing a head covering yeah, not that it's like a magical
crucifix we wear around our neck, nothing like that, but it's
going to protect us from allkinds of harm.
Yeah, yeah, very different,very different.
So approval, then, is based onperforming community norms.
(23:59):
And I use the word performingthere very intentionally,
because when it's about whenappearance matters so much as it
does in these communities, thenplay and self-expression are
viewed.
It's suspicion, they're seen aschildish, you know, and so it's
(24:19):
as human beings.
It's a basic need to beaccepted by our social group,
and so we learn very early toconform to the social group, to
the norms, cultural norms, andwe learn very quickly to hide
any characteristic that makes usstand out in some way.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Well, and I even think about the ways.
So my sister was an incredibleseamstress, creative, particular
, like an amazing seamstress,but the church rules were so
rigid.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Amazing seamstress, but the church rules were so
rigid and in spite of that, Isaw her still trying to be
creative and work around therules.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
But I used to wonder, or I used to believe, that
those rules were there forprotection and that's how it's
presented, but I think it's moreabout stifling that
self-expression and thatcreativity.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
And.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
I've often wondered what she could have done had she
been fashion, like all thesemeans of self-expression are
(25:44):
demonized or banned.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
It leaves so few approved options for artistic
expression and I think there's.
It doesn't allow for manymodels, doesn't allow for
examples to follow.
It doesn't allow for yeah, itdoes not, it only stifles.
The emphasis is on stiflingcreativity and getting with the
(26:07):
program.
So no wonder we grow up andthink we aren't creative.
Right, right, right.
And it's not just in ourconservative communities either,
I think.
In the broader American culturethere's a tendency to see art,
artistic expression, as kind ofthis extra thing that's not
(26:31):
really necessary but a littlebit frivolous, unless you're
naturally talented and you'reactually really good at it.
Well then we know we can getbehind that, but there's only a
few that are naturally talented,and so if you're not one of
those, why bother?
Speaker 2 (26:47):
and I think, if we're honest about it, when leaders
want to control artistic options, artistic expression, those are
the first things they take awayRight, and I think that's sad.
I think we've lost a lot of artdue to lack of resources, lack
(27:11):
of time, because we believe itdoesn't matter Right.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
And I think it ties in with this larger idea that if
it's not, if it doesn't make usmoney, if it doesn't or doesn't
make somebody money, there's nopoint to it.
And I think there's been a lotof emphasis on your hobby
becoming a side gig, and Iunderstand the need for side
(27:39):
gigs, but I find so much freedomin the fact that we we're not
trying to monetize our podcast,we're just doing it for the fun
of it, and I think there's somuch more, so much more
satisfaction, so much morefreedom in it when we can do
that rather than rather thanjust think of it in terms of
(28:00):
making a profit.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Well, I think we've all seen people who have fun
doing something, make a littlebit money and then all of a
sudden create this platform andit almost feels like they sold
their soul and it almost feelslike they sold their soul, and I
say that as non-judgmentally asI can because I mean I don't
(28:29):
know, I mean probably not goingto happen, but what if one day
we end up making money off ofthis?
But let's not sell our souls inthe process, right?
Speaker 1 (28:33):
right, right.
And again, I recognize latecapitalism being what it is just
finding time for a hobby, letalone one that doesn't help pay
the bills is, can be hard to do.
But I think, yeah, there's a.
And then also, you know contentcreators.
(28:55):
I mean, if you're a writer orif you're an, an artist or
whatever your medium is, youknow you have to be on all the
social medias.
That's what they tell you Allthe social medias.
You have to be sending outemails constantly.
And I, just as I mean I justthis morning, was going through
my inbox and unsubscribing,unsubscribing from all the
(29:19):
newsletters that I don't read.
And it's not that I don't valuethe content behind it or the
creators behind it, I do.
I just there's no time in myday to read all of that and I
just I guess what I'm just allI'm saying is like they're just
doing what the marketing gurusare telling them to do, right,
(29:43):
but I and I have no desire tobecome part of that machine,
right?
Speaker 2 (29:49):
I get that and I think the sad fact of it is
adulting is exhausting.
I talked to a kid who this ishis first year out of college
and I casually was like so how'sadulting going?
And he's like I am exhaustedand I'm like I bet you are.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
And, I'm sorry, adults is facing is a situation
where the living expenses forour basic needs have gone up,
but salaries have not kept pace.
So it's more expensive thanever to have a house, to rent a
place to drive a car, any ofthose things, and buy groceries,
(30:34):
for that matter.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
You know.
One more thing on that note,and I know I have criticized the
whole trad wife movementexperience, whatever you want to
call it, and I am critical ofit.
However, I've wondered if thatis one way those women have been
(30:57):
allowed to have self-expression, because it does bring in money
.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Right, yeah, I think that's a good point.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
So I always cringe a little bit when I criticize the
trad wife gig, and I do becauseI wonder if it isn't a desperate
need to be creative and to havesome form of self-expression.
(31:27):
And so you find out how to dothat, or you figure out how to
do that by following the rulesthat are placed in front of you.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Right, and so maybe it's more about a problem with
the system in which they findthemselves as it is about them
as individuals.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
The insanity of that whole idea is they're telling
women to stay at home and dependon their husbands for financial
support when they themselvesare making money.
It's just like to my brain,it's just insanity.
Like, let me make money,telling you how to stay at home
and not make money, yes, yes, Idon't understand.
(32:08):
I don't understand.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Don't get me started.
I'm just going to take a deepbreath and say absolutely, and
I'm going to move on, because ifI start I might not stop.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
So moving on to the internal reasons that we kind of
stay stuck.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
I think a lot of these grow out of the cultural
norms we were just talking about, and if we've been in an
environment whereself-expression has been
discouraged, then we're probablynot going to feel a lot of
confidence that we have anythingto offer and might just be
afraid we're going to make afool out of ourselves and
they're going to laugh at us orwhatever.
(32:51):
But then I think the flip sideis, if someone is told your
stuff is good, you are smart,you are brilliant, all this,
they can also feel stuck becausethey know they might not be
more aware of their ownlimitations and might be afraid
they can't live up to theexpectations.
And so I think, either way,this is a fear that's almost
(33:16):
universal, and I think it'sworth thinking about where it
comes from in our particularcase, and realizing external
approval is not the point.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Right.
But I do think, and especiallyfor those of us raised in the
Amish Mennonite community, thiswhole notion of humility and
never putting yourself out there, I mean, god forbid, you're
called fawitsi.
Oh yeah, see, it's so fawitsi.
I mean that is like the slam.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
And how would you even begin to translate that
word?
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Isn't it forward?
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Yeah, she puts herself forward, I think is the
translation it's initiative,taking yeah, yeah forward.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
I think is the translation it's initiative
taking, yeah, and maybe justslightly too eager.
She doesn't know her place.
So I mean, if you're calledthat a few times, this whole
notion of making a fool out ofyourself I mean your
self-protection is going to setin, yes, and you don't want to
(34:20):
experience that again.
And so you adapt, you changeand invariably that becomes this
skill of making yourselfsmaller.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Blending in, yeah Right, figuring out what's
acceptable.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
And maybe the only way I can be that is by being a
trad wife or whatever other fewoptions are available.
But then we're going to be thedang best trad wife we've ever
been or that has ever been.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Right, right.
And if your house is clean, ifyour garden is weeded and
well-kept, if your flower bedslook good, there's not going to
be time.
There's not going to be time.
There's not going to be timefor anything else.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
An Amish couple just moved next door to us and I'm
pretty convinced they were justdespairing over my poor garden.
I felt like I should goapologize to them.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
They're beautiful people, they're wonderful people
, but I was aware, I was veryaware that's so good.
Yeah, I mean, and I think thesemessages come in the most, I
mean they can come in the mostinnocuous ways.
I mean I just think of my ownexperience when I was a kid, in
my tween years, where I hadtaken an interest in drawing,
(35:39):
and you know when it was nothing.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
I know your daughter.
Before you say it was nothing,I bet it was pretty dang good.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Oh, it was not.
It was no, no, no, no, you aretoo kind.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
But she's had more resources and encouragement than
you had.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Right, right, right, and I think I, yes, absolutely I
agree.
So so what I'm saying is, yeah,I didn't get far at all down
the developmental path, gotcha,but I remember drawing a picture
that I was pretty proud of andshowing it to a, an extended
(36:18):
family member that I had, atleast in my mind, had kind of
bonded with earlier over kind ofartistic interests, and showing
this and not getting thereaction that I'd hoped for, and
really feeling crushed by it.
And looking back now you knowthat family member had no idea
(36:41):
what was going on in my head andthat family member had plenty
of other things on her mind.
Like I don't.
I look back on that with noanimosity, right, but it had a
dampening effect for sure, muchdifferent effect than if there
had been a positive reaction.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
I think we should talk about this because I'm not
sure that many of us know how totruly sincerely, openly be
affirming to someone elseaffirming to someone else.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
How many times has anyone been that way to us when
we were growing up?
And yes, I think so often.
In our world, intelligence is,at least certainly in the
literary world, intelligence isoften seen as how finely you can
criticize something, howfine-tuned, how in the weeds
your criticism can be.
But that may or may not be whatyou're thinking of.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Well, but haven't you heard the phrase of and I'm
thinking back to more ourexperience growing up?
But you know well, we've got tobring him down in peg oh yeah,
yeah, for sure, for sure.
And I think there's this sensethat the playing field is so
small.
Yes, competition isn't welcomed.
(38:05):
Yes, and I think sometimes thatthe sense of actually being
good at something is sounderdeveloped that if you have
a little bit of that, you kindof want to protect that.
But then, to be fair, I thinkemotional intelligence might be
(38:27):
quite low sometimes as well,because, if you think about it,
the people who are affirming,the people who are gracious and
encouraging and give curiousresponses about your work are
the ones who tend to be a littlebit more emotionally mature.
(38:47):
Yes, yeah, so I mean I thinkthere's a whole mix of reasons
for it, but I think we need totalk about it because I mean,
I've been in a writer's groupwhere it was crushing the
responses I got.
I went home and didn't writeagain for months.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
That's awful.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
It is awful and there's a part of me that is
angry that I left.
It affect me the way it didTurns out you're human.
It turns out you're human.
It turns out I'm human.
But I think, I think maybe whatI want to say is, if you get
negative feedback, and evensomewhat crushing feedback, it's
not you right, it's not aboutyou, it's not about your art,
(39:34):
it's not about your work.
It is so much more reflectionof that person and even though
you consider that person to bebetter than you and you were
hoping maybe to learn from them,they're not your person.
Move on, don't stop.
Don't think that there's no oneout there for you.
Just keep looking, keep asking,keep putting yourself out there
(39:57):
and then take really good careto make sure that we treat those
coming after us differently.
Let's treat those people better.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
Absolutely, and I think what I have learned as a
teacher of writing is that it'scompletely useless to evaluate
someone as a writer, becausethere's just no way to
objectively do that.
What we can do is evaluate thedraft we have in front of us,
(40:32):
but that's all it is, and thatsays nothing about an
individual's capability, theircapacity, it says nothing about
where that piece of writingcould go and whatever boost
natural talent offers.
There's just so manyconfounding variables that, at
(40:55):
the end of the day, it says solittle, so little about a
person's potential.
And, as I tell my students, thedifference between an awesome
writer and a mediocre writer isjust how many drafts they went
through.
The mediocre writer went okay,this is good and let it go, and
(41:19):
the great writer kept on, buttheir first drafts were pretty
much the same, pretty much thesame quality.
So, even if somebody is juststarting out and what they're
producing is not up to thehighest standards or whatever,
however you want to say that, sowhat?
(41:41):
That's not the point.
That's not the point and itsays nothing about what they are
capable of.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
You know you're good at this and I've learned from
you, but I think some of thethings that people have done for
me that have been most helpful,that people have done for me
that have been most helpful andyou've done this for me is
instead said things like this isreally interesting, this line
here is really interesting.
Tell me more about that.
Or I'm not sure that thisphrase is telling me anything
(42:13):
important.
What do you mean by that?
Just by asking questions andexpressing curiosity and what is
read kind of can help organizethe message in someone's brain,
or the intended message yeahabsolutely it can bring clarity.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Yeah, yeah, we call that reading like a reader.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it is.
It's like reflecting and say,okay, as a reader, this is what
I'm thinking, and it's just kindof being a mirror and a mirror
for the writer and saying, okay,this is the feeling I'm getting
.
Is that what you were going for?
To me, the best kind offeedback is feedback that starts
(42:58):
by asking what are your goalsfor this?
What do you need from me?
Because sometimes, when someoneasks for feedback, they just
want to know am I doing anythingmajorly wrong in here?
That's going to get me a zero.
Other times it's like, hey, I'mjust trying to figure out what
I'm trying to say, and theyreally want you to get in the
(43:18):
weeds and the piece belongs tothe writer.
And, as someone who is givingfeedback, all I can do is read
as a reader and say here's whatI'm experiencing.
Is this what you want to?
Does this fit your goals?
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Yeah, I think criticism and receiving it and
knowing when to just let it gois so valuable, is so valuable.
Not everyone who has written abook wishes to share their
(43:57):
experience with me, and that'sokay, but then I'm not going to
take any negativity from themseriously either.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
And that was kind of where I had to get to.
And, at the end of the day, thepeople who've issued some of
the most harsh, weirdestcriticism.
I don't really want to tradeplaces with them.
I don't really want to be thetype of writer they are anyway.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
You're into two different wavelengths.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Right.
So I think, instead of ifcriticism devastates you, it's
valid.
Typically it's valid, but don'tinternalize it, the devastation
is valid.
The devastation?
Yes, thank you for clarifyingthat.
The devastation is valid.
It was probably delivered in ahorrible way, yeah, but I'm
betting the criticism wasn'tvalid.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
Yeah, absolutely Absolutely, and I think, whether
or not it was valid, I thinkit's worth it to be aware that
when we spent our formativeyears hearing criticism as a
judgment of our moral worth, ofwho we are, you know, as a good
(45:11):
person or not, a person, who'sgoing to heaven or hell, you
know, our nervous system isprimed to be incredibly
sensitive to any kind ofperceived criticism and I know
for myself.
I've had experiences where Igot feedback on something and I
(45:32):
read through it and I thought itwas all negative, negative,
negative.
And two weeks later I looked atit again and I was like what
was I even looking at?
It was like seeing a differentdocument.
And then, further, I had aconversation with a person who
wrote the letter and nocriticism was the last thing.
(45:56):
And then I realized I learnedultimately or eventually.
Then in time, I learned aboutsome of the dynamics going on in
the background and understoodsome of the coded language.
But there was other stuff goingon and it was not a criticism
of me, but I was feeling veryvulnerable in the moment and I
(46:19):
read it as that and so, yeah, sothe feeling is genuine.
I guess for me it's beenfreeing to learn to catch myself
in that feeling, that horriblefeeling of being criticized, and
go oh, this is not everything,you know, this is not.
(46:40):
This might not be as much of acriticism as it feels like it is
.
Speaker 2 (46:46):
And maybe it's my seven-year-old self who thinks I
got something wrong and I'mgoing to hell Like maybe it's
not the adult version of methat's responding.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
Yeah, yeah, and so that's yeah, and I think that's
it's freeing.
For me it's been freeing.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
And I think it's really important.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
Yeah, and I think this helps us get comfortable
with, or more comfortable with,the vulnerability of the process
of learning.
And you know, and I find like Ispend most of the semester
where I'm teaching first yearcollege students preaching until
their ears bleed about what isinvolved in learning and about
(47:27):
learning is not about aperformance of what you know.
Learning is about trying andexperimenting and vulnerability.
You know, my favorite exampleand I probably have already said
it on the podcast is, like youknow, when a kid takes their
first step, the next thing thathappens is they fall over and we
(47:49):
don't say, oh, I guess this kidis just never going to walk.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
They're just not cut out.
Walking probably isn't for them.
It's probably not for them.
Speaker 1 (47:59):
They're not naturally talented in the gift of walking
, no, so I guess they betterjust get used to crawling and
scooting on their butt.
Yeah, you know, and I know wecheer that they took a step and
I just wish we were that waywhen it came to creative
self-expression.
So we've talked about some ofthese external and some of these
internal blocks.
(48:20):
Why bother trying to get intouch or kind of reignite that
creative capacity that I thinkwe were all born with?
Why bother I think that's animportant question to ask why go
through the discomfort of beingawkward and doing things for
(48:41):
the first time and flubbing themand trying again?
Speaker 2 (48:45):
So I realized when the kids went to college they
were emotionally healthier andhappier when they had at least
one art class in their semesterand at first I was like, oh,
that was interesting for that.
And I think we were all bornwith the capacity to be creative
(49:12):
and I wonder if we would not bebetter, a more healthy self, if
we are allowed ourselves to tapinto it and if we were
encouraged to do that Right, andnot as like, oh, here's another
obligation to put on your to-dolist, but more as kind of
collective permission to pursuesomething that we do just for
(49:35):
the fun of it, just because it'syou know like.
Speaker 1 (49:39):
I doodle calligraphy.
I've done it my whole life.
Well, my whole life, most of myyeah, ever since I could, and
it's gotten me through many long, boring sermons.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
Is there a beachy girl who did not practice
calligraphy in church?
Speaker 1 (49:58):
Well, you know, it can pass as note-taking, so it
gives me pleasure just becauseit's fun.
And what if that's enough of areason to do it and to make time
for, whether it's creativity interms of, well, maybe flower
(50:19):
beds or macrame or sewing orwhatever.
I mean it could be a skill likethat, but it could also be
writing, it could also bedrawing or painting or music.
Speaker 2 (50:32):
You know, I think that whole process can bring us
surprised insight, it can createa community, it can give you
satisfaction and it can be fun.
But I think for myself.
I have a friend who isintentional about being playful.
She talks about being playfuland I have intentionally
(50:55):
observed her and the way sheinteracts with the world around
her and I've realized howimportant it is little selves
inside of us who want to createand who want to be allowed to
play and some of us, I think,probably have playtime that we
(51:16):
need to catch up for, that weweren't allowed to have Right,
and I think it could be a verypowerful way to reparent
yourself.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
And when we think about play,for a child to be able to play,
there has to be a sense ofsafety, emotional safety.
They can't be on guard.
Speaker 2 (51:53):
There's an element of I'm seeing how high I can stack
these blocks and then they'regoing to fall over and that's
going to be fun, and then I'mjust going to do it again, just
because it's fun.
Yeah, wow, wow, and that's allthat's necessary.
Speaker 1 (51:57):
Yeah, that's all, that's all.
So I think the challenge for usis to for many of us anyway to,
in recapturing this to helpcreate a sense of community
where it's safe for others tojoin in and we can be.
We can, we can create that safeplace for play, for creative
(52:20):
expression amongst ourselves,and this leads us into this fun
thing that-.
Speaker 2 (52:28):
An exciting announcement.
Speaker 1 (52:33):
Something's coming, as they all say yeah.
So recently, book the Artist'sWay by Julia Cameron has come to
our awareness and it's one ofthese books that's been around
since I think first edition cameout in 1992.
It's been around for a longtime.
Elizabeth Gilbert said that Eat, pray, love would never have
(52:53):
happened if it hadn't been forthis book.
So in reading it and oh, and Ishould also did I say what the
title is the Artist's Way,anyway, a Spiritual Path to
Higher Creativity the subtitle,and it's a 12-week process of
exercises and tools fordeveloping creativity.
(53:14):
And we were thinking about doinga review of the book and then,
as we got more familiar with it,thought, wow, this would be fun
to do as a 12-week process andsee if anybody wants to join us
in doing this after the first ofthe year.
That would give us giveeverybody some time to get a
(53:35):
copy of the book and getfamiliar with it and see if this
is something that they'd beinterested in.
But we're thinking of a virtualgroup where we could encourage
each other, we could workthrough the book together and
that this would be a place forthose who wonder if they could
(53:56):
be a writer but aren't even surewhere to start, where they
would even go to find out.
This is not for the elitecritics or anyone like that.
This is for learners and peoplewho want to experiment and play
and encourage each other.
Speaker 2 (54:14):
So if you have any interest at all in joining us,
first of all put the book onyour Christmas wishlist or just
buy it for yourself.
That's fine too, but text usand let us know.
And even if you text us, you'renot committing to anything.
Um, you're just going to be puton the list and I don't expect
(54:37):
to have 30 people texting us,but at some point we'll probably
have to have a cutoff, becauseI mean realistically, probably
not more than 12 people.
Speaker 1 (54:49):
Agreed, agreed.
Speaker 2 (54:51):
And there will probably be a small fee, but
this is truly for anyone whowishes to develop their
creativity, who wishes to have aplace to be curious and to play
, and we hope you decide to joinus.
Speaker 1 (55:09):
Absolutely, and we'll keep talking about it in the
weeks that come and provide moreinformation as we figure it out
.
Speaker 2 (55:19):
Not like we're making anything up on the fly here.
Speaker 1 (55:24):
I think this could be so rewarding and so much fun,
especially when we might befilling in the gaps of things we
didn't our younger selvesdidn't have, and I think it's
just a really lovely thing whenwe can do that for each other
and maybe feel a little lessalone as we try to figure these
things out as we go.
Speaker 2 (55:43):
I'm so excited.
Speaker 1 (55:45):
I think it's going to be a lot of fun.
I really do, I really do.
I think it's going to be a lotof fun.
I really do, I really do andI've been listening to the audio
versions of this author's work.
I still have to read the bookmyself, but from what I've heard
from it so far, I think herperspective is one that's going
to resonate with a lot of thekinds of things many of us are
(56:09):
dealing with, so I'm reallyexcited about that.
All right, well, until wefigure things out for our next
podcast.
Speaker 2 (56:18):
so long, Don't forget to text us.
We want to hear from you.
Speaker 1 (56:21):
Oh, that's right.
Yes, and there's.
The link is in the show notes.
Says text us to send us a line.
I'm in, and oh, they shouldprobably send their email.
Right, I'm in, and yeah, and,and your email, so we can put
you on the list and we'll keepyou up to date.
(56:42):
All right, catch y'all later.
Speaker 2 (56:45):
Talk to you soon.
Thank you for spending timewith us today.
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond what?
Speaker 1 (57:08):
are your thoughts about college and recovery from
high demand religion.
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences and we
wanna talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atuncoveredlifebeyondatgmailcom.
That'suncoveredlifebeyondatgmailcom.
Speaker 2 (57:27):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode Until
next time stay brave, stay bold,stay awkward.
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