January 8, 2025 • 63 mins
We, Rebecca and Naomi, sit down to recap our holidays and reflect on the ways traditions and expectations have evolved over the years. Somewhere between the low-frills Christmas traditions of our background and the extravagant expectations of Pinterest and Instagram today, can we make meaningful memories without sacrificing Mom's sanity in the process? Is it better to sacrifice spontaneity to get the precise gift we want or is it worth the risk to trust that our oved ones have been attentive to our likes and dislikes? And who is supposed to fill the adults' stockings, anyway?
We also celebrate the beginning of Rebecca's last semester of college and the dogged determination that has brought her so far. Naomi recalls her advice to her college-bound daughter about handling the pressure to choose the "right" college and how to respond to the never-ending question about what her major is going to be (when the decision is still years away).
Links mentioned in the show:
Jews for Jesus, for Just One Day (This American Life podcast)
The Secret to Gift-Giving (Hidden Brain podcast)
Thanks for listening! Connect with us via
- Facebook: Uncovered: Life Beyond
- Instagram: @uncoveredlifebeyond
- Email: uncoveredlifebeyond@gmail.com
- Website: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2171591
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
This is.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Rebecca, and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path Along the
way, we've uncovered a fewinsights we want to share with
fellow travelers.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up, we are here to cheeryou on and assure you that the
best is yet to come.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Welcome to Uncovered.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Life Beyond.
Hello everyone, Welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
This is Naomi and this is Rebecca.
Look at us.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
We're back again.
You know I don't like how oftenwe start an episode
congratulating ourselves forlike finally getting on the mic
ourselves, for like finallygetting on the mic.
I mean, my one consolation isthat, you know, some of the
podcasts I've listened to thelongest have gone through times
(01:32):
periods where it was like awhole year between episodes.
The big boo cast, but but nowthey're regular.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
So I'm like maybe one day, one day, hey, and you know
what?
If?
If the best we do iscongratulate ourselves, or is
that the worst we do?
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Anyway, if this is where we get to congratulate
ourselves, let's just roll withit Absolutely, absolutely Well,
and you know I feel a lot ofinternal pressure to be
professional, yeah, but thereality is like the kinds of
podcasts and blogs I like tolisten to a lot of the time is
(02:08):
the raw stuff, the real stuff,you know, like it's not the
polished stuff yeah, isn't itweird how how we feel this
pressure for perfectionism butthen in reality, few people are
really attracted toperfectionism.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Like, yes, a perfect world, you can't.
Yeah, like if someone'sabsolutely perfect and all they
do, you can't really competewith it.
Right, and it feels I don'tknow, off-putting or something.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, no, I I agree.
It's like a distance, itcreates a distance.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Well, but don't we identify with the human part of
people?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Right, right.
But I think we all have, ormany of us have, a critic, have
an inner critic, and that iswhat we're responding to, more
than the reality that you'retalking about, because we're
trying to we're trying what wedon't want to give our inner
(03:09):
critic something to criticize usfor.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
You know, in another conversation with another friend
, I thought about Brene Brownagain and her work with
vulnerability and shame, withvulnerability and shame, and she
talks about how these you knowbusiness people want her to come
in and talk to them.
(03:32):
But they asked that she doesn'ttalk about vulnerability and
shame, rather they're.
She's supposed to talk aboutinnovation and production, and
she's like and production, andshe's like vulnerability is what
produces innovation.
You can't have innovationwithout that.
(03:54):
And that gave me like this Imean, isn't that kind of
affirming, oh, my goodness?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Oh, I agree oh man, there's so many applications,
yeah, so many applications ofthat so many parts of our lives,
whether it's work or education,or families or church or
wherever there's so muchemphasis, there can be so much
emphasis on performance and it'snot safe for vulnerability and
(04:21):
therefore nothing new Right,nothing innovative happens?
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Well, yeah, and I think even the way we were
taught, you know to carefullyconsider any choices you make
and let no man despise thy youth.
You know all that.
All those narratives, almostlike, freeze you from doing
(04:45):
anything because, man, you don'twant to make mistakes either
and screw up your whole life.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Right, right.
And there's this narrative thatsomehow you're supposed to be
able to not screw up your life.
Right, right no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
It's about trying again.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Yeah, yeah, it's yeah , well, I talk with my students
about this in terms of writingall the time and and I like the
example and you had mentioned italso when we were talking
earlier you know when, when akid takes their first step, the
very next thing that happens isthey fall over, and yet all the
grownups cheer.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Right.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
You know.
But how we treat that kind ofthing as we get older is like
well, I guess you're just not, Iguess walking is just not your
thing.
Right, because you fell down.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Yeah, I guess walking is just not your thing, right,
because you fell down, yeah.
Or if you color outside thelines, well, obviously you're
not an artist, or?
Speaker 2 (06:10):
you know whatever.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Yeah, wow.
So here we are at the beginningof January.
Maybe we should talk about theholidays and how well they lived
up to our expectations.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Oof.
Anyway, how were your holidays?
Speaker 2 (06:29):
They were good.
After finals were done, then itwas like a mad dash to get
everything ready and I'm goingwhat Mad dash?
No, I'll take that back.
I didn't have enough energy todo any mad dashes.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Hey, you know to be fair and let's give credit where
credit is due.
I am realizing how, as astudent, finals are exhausting,
but I think as a professor, ithas to be even more exhausting.
Well, and as a professor, itgoes a week or two longer.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
A few days.
Yeah, yeah, it can it can yeah?
It's just different.
Yeah, yeah, it can, it can.
Yeah, it's just different yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Yeah, because I know, I know, until finals are
finally finished for me, I'mjust like, oh, I'm tired.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Right, it's like there's there's a clarity in
ignoring everything else exceptfinals or whatever it is on your
plate, but the thing is, whenthat's over, then you've got all
this, all these piles of stuffthat you've everything else
(07:37):
everything else slaps you in theface, right, right, and, and,
and.
At that point I don't, I want tobreak, I don't want to, I don't
want to.
But anyway, yeah, it was good.
I had Christmas with thechildren here a few days before,
and then we drove to Oklahomaand had Christmas with my family
there, and that was good.
It was well.
(07:59):
Now that there are how manygrandchildren I've lost count?
There are how manygrandchildren I've lost count?
And great-grandchildren andin-laws, and just layers and
layers of different situations.
I mean just, you know just allthe complications, dynamics.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
It's all good Dynamics, dynamics, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Yeah, yeah, so it's.
So, it's just it's good.
It was good, it was great, butbut it was just a lot.
And I know on the last day Iwas sitting there at the lunch
table and it was just like, allat once all the sounds were just
like coming in on me.
I was like it's time to go home.
(08:38):
But I mean and as a kid youknow that din of dozens and
dozens of people was I loved it,right.
But but yeah, I'm, I could onlytake so much of it now, and
nobody was misbehaving.
You know, everybody.
Everything was great.
It wasn't that, it was justlike I realized how I guess how
(08:59):
much my social muscles have haveatrophied in recent years
social muscles have haveatrophied in recent years.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Well, is there?
Is there a difference betweenbeing a kid who's part of the
chaos and being an adult who'ssupposed to organize?
Well, or?
Speaker 2 (09:16):
manage was responsible right the chaos, I
mean right because I wasresponsible for getting me and
my kids on the road and alsothey didn't want to leave, and
so we were trying to push it asfar as we could.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
So you're managing emotions, along with the chaos.
Right.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
But it was good.
Now, on the way there, I hadsome car trouble, so that was
exciting.
Shoot way there, I had some cartrouble, so that was exciting.
But you know Oklahoma, I've gotcomplicated feelings about
Oklahoma's politics, but ormaybe not so complicated, but
anyway.
But I cannot say enough goodthings about the people that I
(09:59):
ran into.
Well, the people I found when I, when my car was in, the oil
light was coming on and it wasfine then.
But there were a couple ofgarages that I stopped by on the
way in northern Oklahoma, justsouth of the Kansas line, and
they were just incrediblygracious and generous with their
(10:20):
time and so yeah, so it we got,we eventually got there.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Humanity.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Humanity redeems themselves in ways right, yeah,
I mean there was a outline of anAK-47 up on the garage wall
which made me kind of a littleuncomfortable for all the layers
of things that it mightrepresent, Right.
And yet, you know, this guy wasincredibly gracious and
(10:51):
generous.
He decided not to use it on you.
No, no, I mean, I fullybenefited from my white
privilege, also knowing that Iwas headed to see family, that
my family lived in WesternOklahoma.
That also added to mycredibility and so, yeah, I was
(11:12):
very grateful for that.
Anyway, tell me about your.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Christmas.
It sounds a lot the same.
Actually.
It was kind of funny becausetypically either over
Thanksgiving or Christmas I'llkind of do like a friend's thing
and just invite whomever.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Like an open house or something.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
You know, whoever might not have a place to go,
you know, and this year I waslike Thanksgiving I was just
tired, like I was just like Ihad no mental space for it, and
I'm like, okay, I'll dosomething over Christmas.
Didn't happen then either.
Like, yeah, I had no mentalspace for it and I'm like, okay,
I'll do something overChristmas.
Didn't happen then either.
Like, yeah, I don't know, mymental space was shot.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Yeah, it was going a lot of other directions.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah, but yeah, christmas itself was kind of low
key, which was nice.
We took the kids to see theTrans-siberian orchestra, which
was fun awesome um cool.
I I always forget how much Ilike like rock concerts, uh-huh,
like, and I don't know what itis, but yeah, I really do like
(12:18):
my rock concerts.
Spoken like a true 80s, yeah,kid, or is it 90s?
Whatever, probably all blendstogether both.
Yeah, yeah, um, but then wetraveled to Pennsylvania as well
, and we're there with family.
We got a really nice Airbnb andso, yeah it was.
(12:39):
It was low-key, had fun stuff,went bowling, you know, and I
keep thinking about how, and Ithink, if, if, I could do
anything over, and we did someof this when the kids were
younger, and it's harder whenkids are younger, or it can be
harder, but experiences, I think, really are more memorial than
(13:04):
memorable.
Yes, then then gifts, but yetyou have to have gifts for them
to open, to which?
is kind of a yeah, but I, I, Iwish, I think, I wish we would
have done more of that type ofthing.
But then again, you know you'vegot your resources.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
So you know that's well, and I know when my kids
were younger, I think I mayberushed the season in terms of
taking them to things, and thenI realized like, oh wait, this
is not fun for anyone.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
And then and now, all at once they are, they're out
of that stage like they're notinto but, like, can we talk
about the expectations like Iremember I mean so, like, let's
get real about it.
I was helping another mom, um,with her daughter in elementary
school and mean you have yourspirit days all of December.
(14:06):
You have the gifts you have tobuy for your teachers or for
your kids as teachers.
You have the gifts exchange,which is all good stuff, yeah,
but that's just school stuff,yeah.
And then you have decorations,and then you have baking 10
different types of cookies thatcan be a part of the
(14:29):
expectations, plus all the giftgiving and the organizing of the
gift giving and gift lists andgift lists, and then extended
family stuff.
It can be overwhelming,overwhelming.
And so, till you get all ofthat done, to plan a family
outing is is exhausting.
(14:51):
I mean, like there's only somuch mental space left, right,
and I also realize likesometimes it feels like you're
expected to be this Mary Poppinsslash Santa Claus, but you're
doing it on a budget.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Yeah, so you don't even have the magic to go with
it, right?
And so many young families.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
You know, are that perfect storm of all those
things coming together at once.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Right, have all that and then take into consideration
all the um oftentimes withextended family.
There just simply are dynamicsat play that can make holiday
experiences stressful.
(15:40):
Right, who likes who, who's madat who, who's a better
christian, who's a bad christian, who you know what, whatever it
is.
And till you get all of thatother stuff managed and then you
roll into this, into theinterpersonal relationships and
those dynamics, it can be a lot.
(16:01):
It can be exhausting, like Iremember it, taking me almost
all of jan and February to likeemotional, emotionally, get my
bearings.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Wow, wow, yeah, yeah, that's a lot, that's a lot.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
And I think something that maybe it's a little bit
more superficial but doesn'thelp is that reality can never
rival what we can imagine, andso, when it comes to
expectations, we're almost setup to fail, and I think it's
just been within the last coupleof years that I realized oh
wait, maybe that's maybe if mychild is disappointed, if they
(16:39):
feel a sense of like oh that'sit, a sense of letdown after all
the presents are opened.
Maybe it's more about the factthat expectations are real.
Life can hardly ever live up toour expectations, and maybe
that's just part of it and notdoesn't necessarily mean I did
things you know.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
I did Christmas wrong .
And I think that's a reallygood point.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
I know I think it was last year that my son what did
he say?
He expressed a level of delightthat I've never seen before,
and I had almost given up on it.
You thought you'd never seethis delight.
I thought I'd never see it, andI was so happy to see that for
(17:25):
once he didn't seem disappointed, and you know, I mean that
speaks to his imagination Well,and probably maturity.
Well, that too, that too, andI've started trying to talk with
them about it beforehand.
Now I read or heard somebodytalking about this kind of thing
(17:46):
and I like the idea of, youknow, having something to look
forward to after, so thatopening the gifts isn't the end
all be all and so good pointyeah, yeah, and so for us.
Well, we had the trip toOklahoma, but also I had found
some groupons for Dave andBuster's tickets, and so when we
(18:09):
drove through Kansas City well,we actually ended up doing it
in Des Moines we stopped on theway back and both Barrett and
Liberty had like an hour and ahalf to enjoy Dave and Buster's.
I went and went shoppingsomewhere else and that was
something to look forward to,and Barrett has been wanting to
go to Dave and Buster's foryears, and so that was.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
But again, that's kind of implementing some
experiences, like it's not justabout the gifts then.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Right, and so we had that to look forward to, not
just the trip, but also afterthe trip, on the way home.
Yeah, good job.
Well, sometimes you juststumble into a group on.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Well, and you know, I do think in many ways it does
get old, it does get easier asthe kids get older, right, and I
think at some point I kind ofrealized, you know, if I can
figure out one or two thingsthat are actually important to
everybody, like what does thiskid find important?
(19:10):
What does this kid actuallyreally find important?
Find important.
What does this kid actuallyreally find important?
Because I mean, we're told thatall these things are important,
like from the cookies to thedecorating, to the gifting, to
the.
You know all of it.
And what if making Christmascookies actually doesn't delight
the souls of my children Do?
Speaker 2 (19:28):
we have to do that, or maybe just making a half
batch of Christmas cookies isgood enough.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Maybe that's all they need, I guess, whether a half
batch of Christmas cookies isgood enough.
Maybe that's all they need.
I guess whether or not to makeChristmas cookies really does
sound kind of Amish Mennonite,doesn't it?
Oh?
Speaker 2 (19:42):
no, I don't know.
I don't think so, but I knowwhat you mean, because that's
one of the things that has comeup, especially for Barrett.
When we talk about what'simportant, about celebrating the
season, what is the thing thatyou for sure want to do?
And often they kind of my kidskind of get annoyed with me
because they're like, ah, theyjust kind of want to be able to
(20:04):
go with the flow, they don'twant to have to think ahead and
I'm like, well, do you want meto make all the decisions or do
you want to participate?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
And if they're invested into it, or if they're
invested in help make thedecisions, they tend not to
criticize it as much than either.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Because they have a buy in.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Right, Absolutely Well.
And then also we didn't.
We kind of ran out of time andat one point I was like, okay,
do you want to make?
Do you want to make them now ordo you want to go do something
else?
I forget what else it was, andthey were like eh, you know what
?
We're okay, Although Libertydid make some cookies, but not
the, not like she kind of did iton her own, it wasn't like a
(20:45):
decorated cookie.
So yeah, if you have thoseconversations with them, it can
kind of help make things maybe alittle more flexible, or it
prepares them to maybe be alittle more flexible or at least
plus it kind of helps you getto know your kid.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
I think a little bit better yeah, it kind of helps
narrow the focus and instead offeeling like you have to do all
the things right well, and youknow, sometimes it's kind of
simple things too.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
The other year liberty was saying you know, it
just doesn't feel like Christmas, it just I don't know.
She just couldn't put herfinger on it.
And then one day she walks inand I'd had some of the wax
melts in the burner and it waslike a pine scent.
And she goes oh, that's it,that's it Now it feels like
Christmas.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
So now you have that to add to the list so you can
just be sure that that's done.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
That's pretty easy, but yeah, that's right, right,
that's way easier than than someother things.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Yeah, yeah yeah, so, and if you do that, maybe you
don't have to do a livechristmas tree.
A live christmas tree wassomething I gave up on.
I was like, yeah, I can barelyget my kids fed.
Watering that stupid tree everyday was going to be the death
of me yeah yeah and yeah.
I can't believe that I amperfectly happy with my fake
(22:07):
Christmas tree that, by the timeChristmas morning came this
year, was half lit and I wasgood I'm.
I'm like we're fizzling out,it's okay.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
That's awesome.
That's awesome Because when Iwas married, we would always do
a real tree, go cut down a realtree and do the whole thing.
But once, yeah, once I was theonly adult in the house, I was
like yeah, no, and I think I gota free one off of Facebook
Marketplace or something.
And every year since then Ithink you know, I should
(22:38):
probably upgrade.
But then I realized like, no,actually anything bigger is
going to be too big for my houseand this is fine.
And so, yeah, I put lights onit and I was going to put the
other decorations on once thekids were here and somehow it
just never happened.
So, yeah, and I'm a fan ofleaving them up after.
(22:59):
So, like, my tree is still up.
And so I, you know, because Ilike the coziness.
Yeah, I like the coziness of itthrough the winter, and so it
feels less out of place if Idon't have all the decorations
on it.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Yeah, at some point I realized if I let the kids
decorate the main tree and havemy own separate tree, my house
is big enough for that.
Life just was smoother becausethey wanted to decorate it and
there was a point in time.
Well, you know how it is likefive and six year olds just
(23:35):
really do a crappy job ofdecorating the tree, but I
wasn't going to tell them.
It was crappy, and so finallyI'm like you know what, just
have at it, do your tree, that'sfine, that's good.
And then I had my tree, butthen they also have to take it
down.
Ah, nice, and that's still kindof the standing arrangement and
(23:55):
I like it.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Before they go back to college, take the tree down,
that's good, take the ornamentsoff, put it all away, like, yeah
, yeah, it's part of theexperience, that's part of the
memory.
Yeah, yeah, and you know whatthey can decorate a tree pretty
good like yeah, oh, I bet, oh,I'm sure by now, artistic flair,
artistic talent that yourchildren have and they have fun
(24:18):
talking about the ornaments andwhere they all came from.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
So, yeah, that's great.
It's kind of like you know what.
Letting go of some of the wholeperfectionistic things, the
things that you're like, oh myGod, is that the tree we're
going to have this year?
Is that really what we're doing?
Just letting go of it, lettingit be in the long run, really
does pay off.
And if I could tell my youngermom self anything, I think it
(24:45):
would be that like it's okay.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yeah, I think I have complicated thoughts about this.
I'm not sure.
Well, I have complicatedthoughts about this, I'm not
sure how much I want to go intoit.
Talk to me Well.
So I bet I'm not the only onewho has this, who had this
experience, because I thinkabout my own childhood
(25:19):
Christmases.
You the story of one year whenthey got to celebrate Christmas.
This is a long, funny story andit was hilarious because I
could identify with so much ofit.
You know like they were used tobeing the kids on the outside
watching other kids, you knowhaving visits from Santa and
everything.
So I guess what I'm saying thereis that as an adult, I love
putting up my decorations.
(25:39):
I don't have extensivedecorations, but I love doing
that.
I love having a tree, I loveall that, but at the same time
yes, I agree, it doesn't have tobe all out for it to be special
, especially for kids, if we'retalking about making memories
for kids.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
You know, I think you have a really good point
because I think it's easy,especially as moms, to think
what I want doesn't reallymatter.
So, you know, if your kids wantto trash the tree, let them
have it, like whatever.
And I was able to do that Likewhatever.
And I was able to do that, Ithink better, because I did have
my own tree and I had space formy own tree.
And way before they were cool,I also got into the ceramic, the
(26:23):
old ceramic Christmas trees.
So I think to your point, Ikind of have my thing.
It kind of scratches that itch,yes, which you know what?
Whatever, let the kids havetheir tree, yes.
But I think your point isreally important that as a
parent, as a mother, you stillmanage to hold on to what's
(26:46):
important to you too.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Absolutely.
And I think maybe where I'mcoming to is that the conclusion
or the synthesis of these ideasis that making memories with
kids really matters, but itdoesn't have to be extravagant
to make them.
You know, just like my own son,you know what's important to
(27:11):
him is making cookies.
Well, that's decorating cookies.
I mean like that's a fairly lowcost, you know, like that's not
as big as a you know someexpensive present or something.
So I guess that's kind of whereI'm coming down, that I think
for myself personally, I I amglad to have something less
austere at Christmas, yeah, butalso that doesn't mean it has to
(27:37):
be extravagant for it to bemeaningful.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
I think that makes sense.
It was funny.
This was the first year that Irealized and I'm kind of curious
about you.
Have you ever had a stocking?
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Yes, as an adult, Not this year.
I've given up on adults havingstockings, but let's talk about
it well, no, this is the firstyear.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
I realized I'm because, because, like, growing
up, obviously we didn't, andthen when we got married, matt
wouldn't have grown up with thateither.
So we just gave each othergifts, you know whatever.
But then I started doingstockings for the kids and all
of a sudden this year I realizedI've never had a stocking and I
(28:21):
don't know that it matters.
It was just like well, I thinkyou know, you.
You read these debates aboutshould adults have stockings and
and why is mom's stocking empty, which I can have a whole
conversation about that if youwant.
Yeah, if one partner gets astocking, then the other partner
(28:41):
should too.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
Oh, absolutely, and it should be filled.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
And if it's not, filled mom, or yeah, the empty
stocking gets to take the next24 hours and do whatever the
heck they want and buy whateverthe heck they want.
Don't hear me saying thatthat's not real.
Yes, but yeah, it was just aninteresting thought and I was
like, huh, I don't.
I've never had a stocking.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Yeah, yeah, so you did this year.
No, oh, no, you didn't, oh, soyou know it was okay.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
I thought maybe it was just okay, no, it was just
yeah.
Where I was like it was just no, it was just this year where I
was like oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Well, I would think that your children are to a
point now where it could be funfor them to help fill your
stocking.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
I'll have to ask them .
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Because I mean, I think that's you know stocking
stuffers it's accessible kind ofyou know.
And so they're young adults andthey're doing their thing.
But I guess something adjacentto that that has really sunk in
for me in a way that I didn'texpect the last few years is
being real clear about what Iwant and either buying it for
myself or somebody asks, tellingthem exactly electric drill, a
(29:57):
cordless drill, and you knowwhat.
The fact that I knew it wascoming did not diminish my
pleasure at seeing it at all.
And I have just found and Ithink other adults can identify
with this that now theanticipation of Christmas is
about giving the gifts ratherthan receiving.
But I think in making space forour own experience and I know
(30:18):
this depends on personality andvaries from person to person,
but I did not expect thatknowing what I was getting and
knowing was getting exactly whatI wanted, would be as
satisfying as it is- I thinkthat that is actually really
important and I fluctuatebetween between that, but then
(30:39):
there's a part of me that alsowants someone to know me well
enough to get what I want.
Mm, hmm, right oh the romance ofit.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
I go back and forth, I go right, I like spin Because
I agree with you.
I absolutely agree with you.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
You know, I heard a really good podcast about the
psychology of gift giving andthe ways we think about it
versus how it actually is, andthat tension came up quite a bit
about the surprise factor andhow important that is, and
somebody who was interviewed inthe show said that he and his
(31:20):
wife have a Google Doc and whensomething comes up that they
want, one or the other wants,they put it on their list in
that Google Doc, that sharedGoogle Doc, so when their
birthday or Christmas orwhatever is coming up, they can
the other person knows what theyspecifically want, but also
they don't know what they'regetting.
(31:41):
So there's still an element ofa surprise there, but also it's
there's a confidence that it'ssomething that the person, the
recipient, is going to want, andso I thought that sounded like
a really cool compromiseActually there's actually an app
that I just stumbled on.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
I think it's called Elfster.
Oh, I've heard of that.
It kind of does that, and Itold my family that next year
they're going to have todownload it and that's going to
be what we're going to work fromMm-hmm, I'm not so sure that.
For me, it's about the elementof surprise, though, as much as
(32:20):
like.
Isn't it gratifying whensomeone knows you well enough
that they bought something?
They or they saw something theythought of.
You bought it and it's like yes, that's me.
Like, does that make sense?
Like?
Speaker 2 (32:32):
I don't think it's not about the element of
surprise.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
It has nothing to do.
I think it's about the elementof being known.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Yeah yeah, I think the sad truth, rebecca, is that
not many people have the giftthat you do for doing that kind
of thing.
I think others have a reallyhard time.
I know I do keeping up with youwhen it comes to that kind of
thing.
I agree, it's beautiful.
It's beautiful.
I'm just sorry You're.
You're flying, you're soaringwith the Eagles and the rest of
(33:02):
us are down here with theturkeys.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
No, no, no no, no, I mean, and I don't know, maybe,
maybe, maybe there is somethingto that.
I don't know.
I Maybe, maybe there issomething to that.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
I don't know, I don't know, I just I just think that
there's something.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Really I agree, I agree with you, really cool with
it, because for me, for me,it's not the element of surprise
.
I don't think Like when Ispecifically ask for something
and specifically get it, I amthrilled.
Yes, I got three differentthings this year that been on my
Amazon list for probably twoyears, oh wow.
So, yes, I'm thrilled I got aBritain, not Britney Spears, oh
(33:46):
my God.
Taylor Swift, oh, vinyl.
I'm so excited.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
I got a Taylor Swift vinyl.
I know that's so excited.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
That's so cool, yeah, and so yeah, like getting
something you specifically wantand had and asked for.
I'm good with that too, like,yes, it's something I want.
It was something I had a hardtime spending the money for.
I had some jadeite that was onmy list.
I got that.
I'm thrilled, thrilled,thrilled, nice, thrilled,
(34:15):
thrilled, nice, nice, um, butyeah, it's just and it's
something I just think about.
There's something about, Ithink, being known right and
someone.
I had a friend that sent melike a fun ceramic christmas
light this year, just kind ofout of the blue, and I was like,
oh, so sweet, like so sweet yes, yes, yeah, no, that's
wonderful, no, I agree.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
I wonder if some of the disappointment, the letdown
after Christmas that we weretalking about a minute ago with
you know, especially with likewith children, to those of us
looking on it can look likethey're just ungrateful.
But I wonder to what extentit's disappointment at not being
seen.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Yes, yes, I wonder that too.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
And it's more about feeling a loss of connection
than about being greedy and hardto please.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Right, which I think brings us back full circle,
where I think is why thoseconversations are so important.
Instead of running on theassumptions which, granted,
we're busy, we're juggling a lotof different things.
Assumptions are so much easierand we all do that at some level
(35:27):
, but I think having thoseconversations is really
important to help people feellike they are seen.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
I would like to think , too, that there's a way that
we can give someone somethingthat makes them feel seen, that
was also on their wishlist, youknow.
Like there's you know what I'msaying Like there's a way that
you can do that where somethingabout the giving of it says that
(35:55):
they do or do not see you, Ithink you felt that with your
cordless drill.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
I felt that with my Taylor Swift vinyl.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
Well, and I got my boyfriend jeans and he likes
Levi's jeans, like the old ones,and they're hard to I mean,
they're impossible to find newRight and so I found some for
him on Etsy and it was.
It was kind of a gamble becausethen I was also reading that,
like you can't necessarily go bythe stated sizes and blah, blah
(36:26):
, blah, all that.
Anyway, they fit in perfectlyand he loves them.
So you know, that was something.
It took some effort on my partto find them and to sort through
everything that was online andso, even though he had been very
clear that, that that he waswanting them and and I was
asking him for details andmeasurements, I think the fact
(36:47):
that they well, a, we were luckyand they fit, because I mean,
he has done things like that forme too, like when I needed, I
wanted something.
This wasn't even a gift, but heknew I was looking for
something online and was havinga hard time finding it and he
went and found it for me andjust sent me the link.
(37:07):
You know that was reallythere's effort.
In that, you know, there'sabsolute and there's this
conscious.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Intention, there's effort in that, you know,
there's absolute and there'sthis conscious intention.
There's, yes and, and I thinkjust that the idea of being
thought about right like I, Iknew you well enough to know
you're looking for this.
Look what I found like theythought of you when they saw
that which, by the way, in someways, I think that's why reels
are so cool when friends send mereels, it's, it's like it's
(37:40):
like an extension ofconversations.
Maybe you haven't passed, yeahand, and it's like I saw this
and I thought about you is what,what is essentially being said,
which I think is absolutelylovely.
I mean, now, sometimes I wake upand I've got, you know, 15
different reels and I can almostnot work my way through all of
them, oh my goodness.
(38:00):
But I do the same thing, though.
Sure, I, you know, send.
I've sent you a gazillionUh-huh, uh-huh, and I think
there's something magical in thething of, thing of of.
I saw this, I heard this and Ithought of you.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Yeah, it's part of the conversation we were having.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Right, yeah, you know now I'm thinking about it.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Out of those 15, 10 of them were probably for me, so
sorry, do not apologize, likeno, no, no, no, don't apologize,
it's a gift, I think every timesomeone sends so maybe before
we wrap up we should kind ofcircle back around to our
broader topic of education andpivoting and midlife and all
(38:47):
that Do you want to share?
Speaker 2 (38:49):
I mean, you're heading into your last semester,
right.
Do you want to share whatthat's?
Speaker 1 (38:53):
looking like excited.
I am freaked out because Ithink I feel a lot of the
question.
I get a lot.
A lot is so what are you goingto do with your degree, which
(39:15):
I'm like?
You know?
I'm a responsible adult.
I should have at least a 10year plan for my life here with
my degree.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
And I don't.
I yeah, I have thoughts.
Go ahead and finish.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
I have thoughts, though, so so I think there's a
little bit of.
I've been working so hard toget this done for so long and I
don't have a 10 year plan for mylife which is a very real like
it's there.
There's another part of me whois just so freaking proud of
(39:49):
getting it done.
Like just so freaking proud, andthere's a part of me also who
doesn't care if I do nothingwith it ever.
I have done, we have all doneas good Amish, mennonite women
especially and I think that itgoes on to the broader community
(40:11):
world.
We do so much for other peoplefor free that if I worked hard
for this degree and never doanything with it, so be it.
I know my life is better for it.
It has absolutely challengedand changed the way I think
about things, the way I relateto people, and it has absolutely
(40:37):
helped me develop skills.
Yeah, so whether or not I makemoney with it, I think is almost
.
I don't think that's the point.
My life is better for it andthat's good enough.
And that's good enough.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
I could not agree more.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
And this is the first semester I have two classes
that I'm so excited about.
The one class that I have totake I'm not really excited
about oh, it's something boring,I forget, I forget what it's
called.
Even I think I'm going to haveto write a business plan, which
actually is going to be good forme, I think, because I think
(41:14):
I'm going to write a businessplan based on my idea of a tiny
home community type thing.
Oh, I love it.
Oh, I love it.
I love it, but why does it feelso boring to me?
I think all the details of itfeel like overwhelming.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
I don't like that kind of detail well, if you need
some, if you need some uhinspiration, um call me and I'll
gas you up I'm sure, I'm sureyou will, I will.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
Oh yeah, I think that's fantastic but I'm doing a
class on the rhetoric of godand in order to get scholarships
I had to take a minimum of twoclasses, and I only had one that
I had to do, yet to graduate.
And so the other two areelectives, so the rhetoric of
(41:55):
God is an elective and and.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
Is that like from a theology or like a, like a
religious studies perspective,or from like rhetoric?
Speaker 1 (42:05):
oh, it's in communications no, this is an
elective.
I should go in and look, okay,well that's okay, that's okay.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
I'm just curious what .
That's a good question angleyeah, and I'm sure we'll hear
about it this spring.
Yeah, yeah, I hope so.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
That sounds really interesting.
The other one is a death anddying class.
Whoa, I know I'm really excitedabout it.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
Whoa yeah.
Is that like a psychology?
Speaker 1 (42:34):
Again, I don't know, okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
I mean, it would sound like it.
I should know this.
Elizabeth Kugler-Ross.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
But both of them I'm like, so excited about and in
hindsight I'm kind of like Idon't know why I didn't take
more of a philosophy route asopposed to communications, but
whatever.
Yeah, because there's a part ofme that wonders if you're
hanging on, it's under English.
(43:03):
Does that make sense?
Oh wow, the rhetoric of God,the rhetoric of God.
So that would be more of athat's my subfield.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Yeah, yeah, okay, I'm going to have so many questions
for you once you get startedwith that.
I mean.
I love yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
So many questions.
The death and dying is whatdoes S-O-W-K stand for?
Social work?
Speaker 2 (43:27):
Oh, I bet I bet, that's what it is.
Yeah, oh, that sounds reallyinteresting.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
And I did this with the permission that if either
one ends up being boring like ifI don't jive with a professor
or if in any way the syllabuslooks overwhelming.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
I drop the class that fast.
Do you need a minimum of two?
Is that right?
Yeah, I need a minimum of twoin order to.
No, I think that's smart,that's really smart to do it
that way.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Not in order to graduate, but in order to have
my scholarships.
Oh, absolutely, absolutely yeah.
So, that's yeah.
So I was like okay, so I'mgoing to sign up for two that
get me excited and then if anyof them look boring,
overwhelming, like you know,whatever, I give myself the
(44:21):
right to drop them.
Okay, um, because again thissemester, even with the three
classes, I'm actually not payinga thing.
Whoa people out there.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
Work the scholarships , like if you're going to do
college, work the scholarshipsyeah, you have to beat the
bushes sometimes, but it's soworth it yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
And you're going to get rejections and you're going
to submit and not know if youactually qualify.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Do it Absolutely, just do it A hundred percent.
Yeah, I agree, I agree.
Wow, that sounds reallyexciting.
And, yes, like if you wouldshare that syllabus with me.
I would love to see it.
Speaker 1 (44:58):
I'm so curious about the rhetoric yeah so curious
about that.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
So, to go back to what you were saying earlier
about you know having a 10 yearplan and you know what, what
you're going to do with that.
You know all that.
It's such a shame that collegehas been reduced to job training
and so much of our in so manyof our minds.
And you know, I think, the waythat you have done it where you
have you've gone part-time youhave done it for your personal
(45:25):
satisfaction as opposed to for ajob.
Not that there's not a time andplace for that kind of thing,
but I, my personal opinion, thatis the ideal way to do college,
to do it and just kind offollow what you're interested in
, like that's a privilege,that's a it's.
It's not something thateverybody can do, but to me
that's the way to really get themost out of it, or to,
(45:49):
especially if you're interestedin, you know, expanding your
frame of reference, expandingyour knowledge of the world, you
know, learning skills, learningabout lots of things.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
Yeah, and there's a part of me that and I think
people are going to be able toidentify with this too.
I think part of it is just fromcoming out of a plain culture,
but I had so many jobs where Ihad to pay attention and educate
(46:23):
myself as I went because I didnot get professional training.
Right.
The assumption was I knew morethan I did and I was so often so
concerned that found out.
Also, I have had plenty ofpeople who would say that your
(46:47):
education doesn't matter.
But it absolutely did when itcame time to sign the paycheck.
But they love the work ethic Ibrought and they use that work
ethic to death.
Of course I had to do that, andI think many of us have had to
do that.
If I do nothing with thisdegree, I think I've still
(47:11):
earned my right to it.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
Absolutely.
Does that make sense?
Oh, my goodness, it has to.
In my mind the two arecompletely separate and I and I
know that's that's not how it'stypically talked about in, you
know, public discourse.
But like it is not about jobtraining, it's about learning
(47:34):
and expanding and and and anddeveloping yourself, and like
it's convenient when those twothings intersect, and and that,
and that's not a problem.
But it's about so much morethan that and I agree with you
because my guess is, given thekind of major you're graduating
(47:55):
with and given what I know ofyour circumstances and
everything, probably it's notgoing to make a dramatic
difference once you do have thatdegree right, like in your work
life, that kind of thing.
Is that your sense?
Speaker 1 (48:09):
I think I will be able.
I mean, it's a negotiating chip.
It's a negotiating chipAbsolutely.
I don't think it's going togive me any extra or any.
I'm not going to see any majorwage increase in it.
(48:29):
At the end of the day, I'm a50-year-old who has had weird
gaps in her resume work historyher resume, work history, and
you can argue 100 different wayswhether or not I actually have
experience in my field.
(48:49):
Don't get me started.
I know, I know.
And the frustrating thing isand I just keep having
conversations about this I had ayoung mom, or I had a mom who
was freaking out just a littlebit because her daughter, whom
she thinks is way too young, isgetting married, and my response
was at least your daughter hasan education, which is more than
(49:10):
what some of these girls have.
And she's like very true,absolutely agreed.
Yeah, I will fight all day longfor especially females to get
an education.
What the world does to youwithout one oftentimes is
devastating Absolutely.
(49:30):
And I think I am probably latein life enough.
I'm never going to see afinancial payoff.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
Which is unfortunate, but and this does not discount
any of the impact that you'retalking about there I mean
that's very real and not the wayit should be.
And also, like I look at howmany years of education that I
have versus someone who had, youknow, who got an accounting
(50:00):
degree, an undergrad, or who youknow got a nursing degree, and
I don't make near what they makeand I never will, and so I
guess what I'm saying is life ishorribly unfair when it comes
to education and pay scales.
I mean, there's you have thestatistical, there's the
(50:20):
statistical trends, but then,but individually they're so it
just makes no sense.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
Well?
And who decided even thatmedical doctors should make the
money they're making, butpsychologists don't?
Speaker 2 (50:36):
Oh well, I know Like what in the world.
Who decided that it's soarbitrary, so arbitrary?
Speaker 1 (50:45):
Yeah, yeah, like most therapists barely make a living
wage at first and we decidedthat mental health doesn't
matter as much.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
So yeah, I hear your point too.
Speaker 2 (50:58):
And I'm not saying that to diminish the unfortunate
reality that you're facing Tome.
The bigger point is that, yes,it's worth it, that education is
worth it.
It doesn't have to be justifiedby you know, earning potential
If it's meaningful to you.
Speaker 1 (51:27):
You, that's what I was trying to say and you got
there very much.
You got there much moreeloquently than I did.
Yeah, exactly, and I think Ithink for so long I did feel the
sense of, or this need tojustify what.
Speaker 2 (51:37):
I was doing yeah, understandably, I mean, that's
what?
Speaker 1 (51:40):
And the truth of it was I was overwhelmed working.
I was overwhelmed with kids.
I was and I'm doing college,you know whatever part time.
So I was overwhelmed with thatand I'm like I need to come up
with a plan.
I need to come up with a plan,but the truth was I for several
years there, I was simply juststaying afloat.
Yeah, and I'm veryintentionally working on
(52:04):
releasing myself from the needto justify it.
Good, and typically people askme I'm just like I'm learning
that when I do the next rightthing, life works out Like I'll
say something generic like thatyes.
Speaker 2 (52:20):
Go for it, like that's wonderful, like normalize
that yeah, that's my, you know.
Normalize getting an educationfor an education's sake.
For what it?
For?
The all the personal benefits.
Yeah, I mean because, say youwere to find yourself in a
crisis situation, like you knowhow to navigate to create new
(52:43):
opportunities for yourself,right, so doing it for just your
personal benefit is what'swonderful, a wonderful way to do
it.
Speaker 1 (52:52):
And you know, for the sake of argument, let's say
something horrible does happento Matt.
This would give me moreopportunities than if I didn't
have it.
Speaker 2 (53:02):
Absolutely.
I mean you could go into any,like, say, master's level field
Right, not any, but virtuallyany and within a couple of years
significantly increase your paypotential.
And your bachelor's degree hasset you up for that, right, yeah
, yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
Well, and even if I were just to go find a full time
job, I do think, or thebachelor's, the bachelor's would
give me a negotiating powerthat I would have had previously
.
But but in truthfulness,oftentimes as well, people are
assuming I'm getting my master'sdoctorate and I'm like, nope,
(53:43):
just a bachelor's.
And I say that to createawareness.
You people, you will get thosequestions.
If you're late in life gettingan education, you will get that.
The assumption is and I'mlearning to respect what is and
it's worth fighting for, it'sworth fighting for what you want
(54:05):
.
Speaker 2 (54:06):
Yes, absolutely, and sometimes money isn't
necessarily the it doesn't needto be the motivating, the
driving factor.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:18):
Agreed, agreed, yeah, yeah, yeah.
What does your semester looklike?
Speaker 2 (54:23):
Well, I'm going to be teaching a college writing
class, which I usually do mostsemesters, and that's one that
I've kind of redesigned aroundthe assumption that my students
are dealing with executivefunctioning deficits for a whole
host of reasons.
I find that many of them are.
So I have had a lot of funfine-tuning that, you know, and
(54:47):
presenting it in different ways,and it's oftentimes the first
time.
It's kind of a fun adventurefor both the students and me.
Let's put it that way.
The other one is a grant writingclass, and in the past yeah, in
the past I've taught this class.
We've worked with a communitypartner, like a local nonprofit,
to give the students actualgrant writing experience.
(55:08):
That's not working out thistime, but I am talking with some
folks on campus, and so I'mhoping that we're going to be
able to find some projectsaround campus that the students
can write proposals for, youknow, and by the time, by the
end of the semester, like theywill, they will not have
(55:29):
submittable drafts.
I mean, that's not theexpectation, that's that's,
that's unrealistic, but at leastif they can, you know, get, get
a head start on some of thosethings and maybe have a good
concept.
Speaker 1 (55:40):
Have a good concept, absolutely have some and have
some those things and have agood concept.
Speaker 2 (55:43):
Have a good concept Absolutely, and have some actual
experience Right and have asense.
And it's so messy.
It's such a messy, it can besuch a messy process and there's
so much, but I think justgetting them, giving them the
opportunity to get their handsdirty, is a big part of it.
So I've found some new teachingmaterials.
So right now my living room islittered with piles of papers as
(56:07):
I'm trying to sort throughstuff that we've done before,
but then maybe I don't want todo this time.
I want to place it with thisand oh, it's such a giant puzzle
, but it's all good.
It's all good, and so I'm almostdone with the syllabus, and
then I have to get the learningmanagement system all set up,
and then, of course, the writingcenter, and we're working on
(56:29):
some special projects there thatI'm really excited about, and
this is shifting a little bit.
But over Christmas I had aconversation with Liberty, my
daughter, who's in 10th grade,and college is like breathing
down our necks almost.
And I had a conversation withLiberty, my daughter, who's in
10th grade and college is likebreathing down our necks almost.
And I wanted to have aconversation with her to kind of
(56:49):
set the tone, like, okay, whatdo you want my involvement to
look like?
As your mom, you know, what doyou want my?
And I knew it would bestressful, the conversation
alone would be stressful, and soI just said, hey, look, I just
want to know what, what you wantfrom me, like what, what, what
would help help you feel goodabout that?
And so we talked about it and I, I think by the end of the
(57:10):
conversation she was feeling alittle less stressed, a little
bit more calm about it, becausewhat I told her was like at this
point in the process, you arejust collecting information.
Yeah, you're just collecting,and people are going to ask you
what major are you going to bein?
People are asking that becausethey're trying to start a
conversation with you.
You don't have to know, you'reunder no obligation to know,
(57:33):
right, and I gave her somescripts that she can say some
language for those situations.
That's really interesting to beon this side of things.
Speaker 1 (57:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (57:43):
And where do we even start?
So yeah, so that's, that's onmy deck, it's, it's huge, it
feels huge, oh and, and shewants to, she wants to get out
of the midwest oh, althoughalthough she is aware that the
the cost might be an issue.
So um I think, I think if shefound herself in a nice little
(58:05):
college town in the Midwest, Ithink it might kind of be the
best of both worlds for her.
Speaker 1 (58:09):
But we'll see.
Tell her that.
Interestingly enough, ohio isconsidered Midwest too, which
there's all kinds of argumentsabout that, but Ohio is yeah.
Speaker 2 (58:22):
Okay so.
Speaker 1 (58:23):
I think Ohio is yeah, okay, so it would still be a
lower cost of living.
Speaker 2 (58:26):
Is that what you're saying?
Because she wants to get out ofthe Midwest.
Speaker 1 (58:29):
Right, right, Right, but yeah, Ohio.
I think, is the start of theMidwest which many people debate
.
Speaker 2 (58:38):
And I hear the debates, you know whatever.
Speaker 1 (58:40):
But so be it.
Speaker 2 (58:42):
So it might be the best of both worlds for her.
Then I'm not saying Ohio is thebest of all the worlds.
Speaker 1 (58:50):
Not saying that.
But yeah, I.
But yeah, college is a big deal, it is.
It feels big, it feels big.
Speaker 2 (58:58):
And another thing I told her is like, look, you
can't mess this up, like if yougo to a place and it turns out
you don't like it, you can dosomething else and it's going to
be OK.
And and you know someone in herposition, she has got adults.
She has not one but two homesshe can land in if she needs to.
And I just really tried toreassure her that this is she
(59:23):
doesn't have to have it allfigured out.
Yeah, at the beginning and andyes, that is privileged, a
privileged position to be in andembrace it it's a privileged
position, but maybe it's more asit should be.
Speaker 1 (59:35):
Absolutely like what if we would make college to be
this, this, this, this Highstakes, yeah, and what if we
would make college affordable sothat all the liberties of the
world don't have to be firstgeneration students?
Exactly, exactly Like, maybe.
Maybe it's as it should be.
Speaker 2 (59:57):
Agreed, I agree.
I love that framing of it.
I'm going to tell her that too.
Yeah, so I guess we're aboutout of time and hopefully we'll
be on back on the mic soonerrather than later.
Speaker 1 (01:00:11):
Otherwise we can just congratulate ourselves next
time we get back here.
Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
Right, right, and we've got some ideas for
podcasts coming up.
Last, tango in Halifax is ashow that we were talking about,
good Omens is another one, andwe were thinking maybe we should
do a recap, some recaps ofthose shows.
So if anybody, wants to watchalong.
That that would be a lot of fun.
(01:00:36):
But if listeners, if you've gotideas, topics, things you'd
like for us to talk about,especially related to this
intersection of midlife, pivotsand education and cycle breaking
and deconstruction and all thethings, you can drop us a note
in the link in our podcast andit'll come to us as a text, so
(01:00:57):
you don't even have to open upyour email that way.
So well, you know what I wantto congratulate myself for
something.
I don't think this is such anaccomplishment for you, but it
is for me.
I find myself often feelingvery insecure having a
free-flowing conversation likethis on the mic.
Something about being on themic always freaks me out.
(01:01:18):
And here we are at the end andI'm surprised it's gone as well
as it has.
Speaker 1 (01:01:22):
So Naomi, I was just thinking the same thing.
I was thinking, you know, thiswent amazingly smoothly, like
yeah, yeah, is this the podcastwhere we congratulate ourselves
coming in and as we exit?
Speaker 2 (01:01:40):
I don't know if that is a good thing or if it's
pathetic, but oh well it's whowe are.
Speaker 1 (01:01:47):
It's who we are.
I say we own it and run with it, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (01:01:51):
All right, folks, we'll see you next time.
Take care.
Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
Thank you for spending time with us today.
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
What are your thoughts about college and
recovery from high demandreligion?
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences, and
we want to talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atuncoveredlifebeyondatgmailcom.
That'suncoveredlifebeyondatgmailcom.
Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode Until
next time.
Speaker 2 (01:02:49):
stay brave, stay bold , stay awkward.
Thank you,
This is.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Rebecca, and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path Along the
way, we've uncovered a fewinsights we want to share with
fellow travelers.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up, we are here to cheeryou on and assure you that the
best is yet to come.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Welcome to Uncovered.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Life Beyond.
Hello everyone, Welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
This is Naomi and this is Rebecca.
Look at us.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
We're back again.
You know I don't like how oftenwe start an episode
congratulating ourselves forlike finally getting on the mic
ourselves, for like finallygetting on the mic.
I mean, my one consolation isthat, you know, some of the
podcasts I've listened to thelongest have gone through times
(01:32):
periods where it was like awhole year between episodes.
The big boo cast, but but nowthey're regular.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
So I'm like maybe one day, one day, hey, and you know
what?
If?
If the best we do iscongratulate ourselves, or is
that the worst we do?
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Anyway, if this is where we get to congratulate
ourselves, let's just roll withit Absolutely, absolutely Well,
and you know I feel a lot ofinternal pressure to be
professional, yeah, but thereality is like the kinds of
podcasts and blogs I like tolisten to a lot of the time is
(02:08):
the raw stuff, the real stuff,you know, like it's not the
polished stuff yeah, isn't itweird how how we feel this
pressure for perfectionism butthen in reality, few people are
really attracted toperfectionism.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Like, yes, a perfect world, you can't.
Yeah, like if someone'sabsolutely perfect and all they
do, you can't really competewith it.
Right, and it feels I don'tknow, off-putting or something.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, no, I I agree.
It's like a distance, itcreates a distance.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Well, but don't we identify with the human part of
people?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Right, right.
But I think we all have, ormany of us have, a critic, have
an inner critic, and that iswhat we're responding to, more
than the reality that you'retalking about, because we're
trying to we're trying what wedon't want to give our inner
(03:09):
critic something to criticize usfor.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
You know, in another conversation with another friend
, I thought about Brene Brownagain and her work with
vulnerability and shame, withvulnerability and shame, and she
talks about how these you knowbusiness people want her to come
in and talk to them.
(03:32):
But they asked that she doesn'ttalk about vulnerability and
shame, rather they're.
She's supposed to talk aboutinnovation and production, and
she's like and production, andshe's like vulnerability is what
produces innovation.
You can't have innovationwithout that.
(03:54):
And that gave me like this Imean, isn't that kind of
affirming, oh, my goodness?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Oh, I agree oh man, there's so many applications,
yeah, so many applications ofthat so many parts of our lives,
whether it's work or education,or families or church or
wherever there's so muchemphasis, there can be so much
emphasis on performance and it'snot safe for vulnerability and
(04:21):
therefore nothing new Right,nothing innovative happens?
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Well, yeah, and I think even the way we were
taught, you know to carefullyconsider any choices you make
and let no man despise thy youth.
You know all that.
All those narratives, almostlike, freeze you from doing
(04:45):
anything because, man, you don'twant to make mistakes either
and screw up your whole life.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Right, right.
And there's this narrative thatsomehow you're supposed to be
able to not screw up your life.
Right, right no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
It's about trying again.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Yeah, yeah, it's yeah , well, I talk with my students
about this in terms of writingall the time and and I like the
example and you had mentioned italso when we were talking
earlier you know when, when akid takes their first step, the
very next thing that happens isthey fall over, and yet all the
grownups cheer.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Right.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
You know.
But how we treat that kind ofthing as we get older is like
well, I guess you're just not, Iguess walking is just not your
thing.
Right, because you fell down.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Yeah, I guess walking is just not your thing, right,
because you fell down, yeah.
Or if you color outside thelines, well, obviously you're
not an artist, or?
Speaker 2 (06:10):
you know whatever.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Yeah, wow.
So here we are at the beginningof January.
Maybe we should talk about theholidays and how well they lived
up to our expectations.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Oof.
Anyway, how were your holidays?
Speaker 2 (06:29):
They were good.
After finals were done, then itwas like a mad dash to get
everything ready and I'm goingwhat Mad dash?
No, I'll take that back.
I didn't have enough energy todo any mad dashes.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Hey, you know to be fair and let's give credit where
credit is due.
I am realizing how, as astudent, finals are exhausting,
but I think as a professor, ithas to be even more exhausting.
Well, and as a professor, itgoes a week or two longer.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
A few days.
Yeah, yeah, it can it can yeah?
It's just different.
Yeah, yeah, it can, it can.
Yeah, it's just different yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Yeah, because I know, I know, until finals are
finally finished for me, I'mjust like, oh, I'm tired.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Right, it's like there's there's a clarity in
ignoring everything else exceptfinals or whatever it is on your
plate, but the thing is, whenthat's over, then you've got all
this, all these piles of stuffthat you've everything else
(07:37):
everything else slaps you in theface, right, right, and, and,
and.
At that point I don't, I want tobreak, I don't want to, I don't
want to.
But anyway, yeah, it was good.
I had Christmas with thechildren here a few days before,
and then we drove to Oklahomaand had Christmas with my family
there, and that was good.
It was well.
(07:59):
Now that there are how manygrandchildren I've lost count?
There are how manygrandchildren I've lost count?
And great-grandchildren andin-laws, and just layers and
layers of different situations.
I mean just, you know just allthe complications, dynamics.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
It's all good Dynamics, dynamics, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Yeah, yeah, so it's.
So, it's just it's good.
It was good, it was great, butbut it was just a lot.
And I know on the last day Iwas sitting there at the lunch
table and it was just like, allat once all the sounds were just
like coming in on me.
I was like it's time to go home.
(08:38):
But I mean and as a kid youknow that din of dozens and
dozens of people was I loved it,right.
But but yeah, I'm, I could onlytake so much of it now, and
nobody was misbehaving.
You know, everybody.
Everything was great.
It wasn't that, it was justlike I realized how I guess how
(08:59):
much my social muscles have haveatrophied in recent years
social muscles have haveatrophied in recent years.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Well, is there?
Is there a difference betweenbeing a kid who's part of the
chaos and being an adult who'ssupposed to organize?
Well, or?
Speaker 2 (09:16):
manage was responsible right the chaos, I
mean right because I wasresponsible for getting me and
my kids on the road and alsothey didn't want to leave, and
so we were trying to push it asfar as we could.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
So you're managing emotions, along with the chaos.
Right.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
But it was good.
Now, on the way there, I hadsome car trouble, so that was
exciting.
Shoot way there, I had some cartrouble, so that was exciting.
But you know Oklahoma, I've gotcomplicated feelings about
Oklahoma's politics, but ormaybe not so complicated, but
anyway.
But I cannot say enough goodthings about the people that I
(09:59):
ran into.
Well, the people I found when I, when my car was in, the oil
light was coming on and it wasfine then.
But there were a couple ofgarages that I stopped by on the
way in northern Oklahoma, justsouth of the Kansas line, and
they were just incrediblygracious and generous with their
(10:20):
time and so yeah, so it we got,we eventually got there.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Humanity.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Humanity redeems themselves in ways right, yeah,
I mean there was a outline of anAK-47 up on the garage wall
which made me kind of a littleuncomfortable for all the layers
of things that it mightrepresent, Right.
And yet, you know, this guy wasincredibly gracious and
(10:51):
generous.
He decided not to use it on you.
No, no, I mean, I fullybenefited from my white
privilege, also knowing that Iwas headed to see family, that
my family lived in WesternOklahoma.
That also added to mycredibility and so, yeah, I was
(11:12):
very grateful for that.
Anyway, tell me about your.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Christmas.
It sounds a lot the same.
Actually.
It was kind of funny becausetypically either over
Thanksgiving or Christmas I'llkind of do like a friend's thing
and just invite whomever.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Like an open house or something.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
You know, whoever might not have a place to go,
you know, and this year I waslike Thanksgiving I was just
tired, like I was just like Ihad no mental space for it, and
I'm like, okay, I'll dosomething over Christmas.
Didn't happen then either.
Like, yeah, I had no mentalspace for it and I'm like, okay,
I'll do something overChristmas.
Didn't happen then either.
Like, yeah, I don't know, mymental space was shot.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Yeah, it was going a lot of other directions.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah, but yeah, christmas itself was kind of low
key, which was nice.
We took the kids to see theTrans-siberian orchestra, which
was fun awesome um cool.
I I always forget how much Ilike like rock concerts, uh-huh,
like, and I don't know what itis, but yeah, I really do like
(12:18):
my rock concerts.
Spoken like a true 80s, yeah,kid, or is it 90s?
Whatever, probably all blendstogether both.
Yeah, yeah, um, but then wetraveled to Pennsylvania as well
, and we're there with family.
We got a really nice Airbnb andso, yeah it was.
(12:39):
It was low-key, had fun stuff,went bowling, you know, and I
keep thinking about how, and Ithink, if, if, I could do
anything over, and we did someof this when the kids were
younger, and it's harder whenkids are younger, or it can be
harder, but experiences, I think, really are more memorial than
(13:04):
memorable.
Yes, then then gifts, but yetyou have to have gifts for them
to open, to which?
is kind of a yeah, but I, I, Iwish, I think, I wish we would
have done more of that type ofthing.
But then again, you know you'vegot your resources.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
So you know that's well, and I know when my kids
were younger, I think I mayberushed the season in terms of
taking them to things, and thenI realized like, oh wait, this
is not fun for anyone.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
And then and now, all at once they are, they're out
of that stage like they're notinto but, like, can we talk
about the expectations like Iremember I mean so, like, let's
get real about it.
I was helping another mom, um,with her daughter in elementary
school and mean you have yourspirit days all of December.
(14:06):
You have the gifts you have tobuy for your teachers or for
your kids as teachers.
You have the gifts exchange,which is all good stuff, yeah,
but that's just school stuff,yeah.
And then you have decorations,and then you have baking 10
different types of cookies thatcan be a part of the
(14:29):
expectations, plus all the giftgiving and the organizing of the
gift giving and gift lists andgift lists, and then extended
family stuff.
It can be overwhelming,overwhelming.
And so, till you get all ofthat done, to plan a family
outing is is exhausting.
(14:51):
I mean, like there's only somuch mental space left, right,
and I also realize likesometimes it feels like you're
expected to be this Mary Poppinsslash Santa Claus, but you're
doing it on a budget.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Yeah, so you don't even have the magic to go with
it, right?
And so many young families.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
You know, are that perfect storm of all those
things coming together at once.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Right, have all that and then take into consideration
all the um oftentimes withextended family.
There just simply are dynamicsat play that can make holiday
experiences stressful.
(15:40):
Right, who likes who, who's madat who, who's a better
christian, who's a bad christian, who you know what, whatever it
is.
And till you get all of thatother stuff managed and then you
roll into this, into theinterpersonal relationships and
those dynamics, it can be a lot.
(16:01):
It can be exhausting, like Iremember it, taking me almost
all of jan and February to likeemotional, emotionally, get my
bearings.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Wow, wow, yeah, yeah, that's a lot, that's a lot.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
And I think something that maybe it's a little bit
more superficial but doesn'thelp is that reality can never
rival what we can imagine, andso, when it comes to
expectations, we're almost setup to fail, and I think it's
just been within the last coupleof years that I realized oh
wait, maybe that's maybe if mychild is disappointed, if they
(16:39):
feel a sense of like oh that'sit, a sense of letdown after all
the presents are opened.
Maybe it's more about the factthat expectations are real.
Life can hardly ever live up toour expectations, and maybe
that's just part of it and notdoesn't necessarily mean I did
things you know.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
I did Christmas wrong .
And I think that's a reallygood point.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
I know I think it was last year that my son what did
he say?
He expressed a level of delightthat I've never seen before,
and I had almost given up on it.
You thought you'd never seethis delight.
I thought I'd never see it, andI was so happy to see that for
(17:25):
once he didn't seem disappointed, and you know, I mean that
speaks to his imagination Well,and probably maturity.
Well, that too, that too, andI've started trying to talk with
them about it beforehand.
Now I read or heard somebodytalking about this kind of thing
(17:46):
and I like the idea of, youknow, having something to look
forward to after, so thatopening the gifts isn't the end
all be all and so good pointyeah, yeah, and so for us.
Well, we had the trip toOklahoma, but also I had found
some groupons for Dave andBuster's tickets, and so when we
(18:09):
drove through Kansas City well,we actually ended up doing it
in Des Moines we stopped on theway back and both Barrett and
Liberty had like an hour and ahalf to enjoy Dave and Buster's.
I went and went shoppingsomewhere else and that was
something to look forward to,and Barrett has been wanting to
go to Dave and Buster's foryears, and so that was.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
But again, that's kind of implementing some
experiences, like it's not justabout the gifts then.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Right, and so we had that to look forward to, not
just the trip, but also afterthe trip, on the way home.
Yeah, good job.
Well, sometimes you juststumble into a group on.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Well, and you know, I do think in many ways it does
get old, it does get easier asthe kids get older, right, and I
think at some point I kind ofrealized, you know, if I can
figure out one or two thingsthat are actually important to
everybody, like what does thiskid find important?
(19:10):
What does this kid actuallyreally find important?
Find important.
What does this kid actuallyreally find important?
Because I mean, we're told thatall these things are important,
like from the cookies to thedecorating, to the gifting, to
the.
You know all of it.
And what if making Christmascookies actually doesn't delight
the souls of my children Do?
Speaker 2 (19:28):
we have to do that, or maybe just making a half
batch of Christmas cookies isgood enough.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Maybe that's all they need, I guess, whether a half
batch of Christmas cookies isgood enough.
Maybe that's all they need.
I guess whether or not to makeChristmas cookies really does
sound kind of Amish Mennonite,doesn't it?
Oh?
Speaker 2 (19:42):
no, I don't know.
I don't think so, but I knowwhat you mean, because that's
one of the things that has comeup, especially for Barrett.
When we talk about what'simportant, about celebrating the
season, what is the thing thatyou for sure want to do?
And often they kind of my kidskind of get annoyed with me
because they're like, ah, theyjust kind of want to be able to
(20:04):
go with the flow, they don'twant to have to think ahead and
I'm like, well, do you want meto make all the decisions or do
you want to participate?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
And if they're invested into it, or if they're
invested in help make thedecisions, they tend not to
criticize it as much than either.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Because they have a buy in.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Right, Absolutely Well.
And then also we didn't.
We kind of ran out of time andat one point I was like, okay,
do you want to make?
Do you want to make them now ordo you want to go do something
else?
I forget what else it was, andthey were like eh, you know what
?
We're okay, Although Libertydid make some cookies, but not
the, not like she kind of did iton her own, it wasn't like a
(20:45):
decorated cookie.
So yeah, if you have thoseconversations with them, it can
kind of help make things maybe alittle more flexible, or it
prepares them to maybe be alittle more flexible or at least
plus it kind of helps you getto know your kid.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
I think a little bit better yeah, it kind of helps
narrow the focus and instead offeeling like you have to do all
the things right well, and youknow, sometimes it's kind of
simple things too.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
The other year liberty was saying you know, it
just doesn't feel like Christmas, it just I don't know.
She just couldn't put herfinger on it.
And then one day she walks inand I'd had some of the wax
melts in the burner and it waslike a pine scent.
And she goes oh, that's it,that's it Now it feels like
Christmas.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
So now you have that to add to the list so you can
just be sure that that's done.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
That's pretty easy, but yeah, that's right, right,
that's way easier than than someother things.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Yeah, yeah yeah, so, and if you do that, maybe you
don't have to do a livechristmas tree.
A live christmas tree wassomething I gave up on.
I was like, yeah, I can barelyget my kids fed.
Watering that stupid tree everyday was going to be the death
of me yeah yeah and yeah.
I can't believe that I amperfectly happy with my fake
(22:07):
Christmas tree that, by the timeChristmas morning came this
year, was half lit and I wasgood I'm.
I'm like we're fizzling out,it's okay.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
That's awesome.
That's awesome Because when Iwas married, we would always do
a real tree, go cut down a realtree and do the whole thing.
But once, yeah, once I was theonly adult in the house, I was
like yeah, no, and I think I gota free one off of Facebook
Marketplace or something.
And every year since then Ithink you know, I should
(22:38):
probably upgrade.
But then I realized like, no,actually anything bigger is
going to be too big for my houseand this is fine.
And so, yeah, I put lights onit and I was going to put the
other decorations on once thekids were here and somehow it
just never happened.
So, yeah, and I'm a fan ofleaving them up after.
(22:59):
So, like, my tree is still up.
And so I, you know, because Ilike the coziness.
Yeah, I like the coziness of itthrough the winter, and so it
feels less out of place if Idon't have all the decorations
on it.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Yeah, at some point I realized if I let the kids
decorate the main tree and havemy own separate tree, my house
is big enough for that.
Life just was smoother becausethey wanted to decorate it and
there was a point in time.
Well, you know how it is likefive and six year olds just
(23:35):
really do a crappy job ofdecorating the tree, but I
wasn't going to tell them.
It was crappy, and so finallyI'm like you know what, just
have at it, do your tree, that'sfine, that's good.
And then I had my tree, butthen they also have to take it
down.
Ah, nice, and that's still kindof the standing arrangement and
(23:55):
I like it.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Before they go back to college, take the tree down,
that's good, take the ornamentsoff, put it all away, like, yeah
, yeah, it's part of theexperience, that's part of the
memory.
Yeah, yeah, and you know whatthey can decorate a tree pretty
good like yeah, oh, I bet, oh,I'm sure by now, artistic flair,
artistic talent that yourchildren have and they have fun
(24:18):
talking about the ornaments andwhere they all came from.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
So, yeah, that's great.
It's kind of like you know what.
Letting go of some of the wholeperfectionistic things, the
things that you're like, oh myGod, is that the tree we're
going to have this year?
Is that really what we're doing?
Just letting go of it, lettingit be in the long run, really
does pay off.
And if I could tell my youngermom self anything, I think it
(24:45):
would be that like it's okay.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yeah, I think I have complicated thoughts about this.
I'm not sure.
Well, I have complicatedthoughts about this, I'm not
sure how much I want to go intoit.
Talk to me Well.
So I bet I'm not the only onewho has this, who had this
experience, because I thinkabout my own childhood
(25:19):
Christmases.
You the story of one year whenthey got to celebrate Christmas.
This is a long, funny story andit was hilarious because I
could identify with so much ofit.
You know like they were used tobeing the kids on the outside
watching other kids, you knowhaving visits from Santa and
everything.
So I guess what I'm saying thereis that as an adult, I love
putting up my decorations.
(25:39):
I don't have extensivedecorations, but I love doing
that.
I love having a tree, I loveall that, but at the same time
yes, I agree, it doesn't have tobe all out for it to be special
, especially for kids, if we'retalking about making memories
for kids.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
You know, I think you have a really good point
because I think it's easy,especially as moms, to think
what I want doesn't reallymatter.
So, you know, if your kids wantto trash the tree, let them
have it, like whatever.
And I was able to do that Likewhatever.
And I was able to do that, Ithink better, because I did have
my own tree and I had space formy own tree.
And way before they were cool,I also got into the ceramic, the
(26:23):
old ceramic Christmas trees.
So I think to your point, Ikind of have my thing.
It kind of scratches that itch,yes, which you know what?
Whatever, let the kids havetheir tree, yes.
But I think your point isreally important that as a
parent, as a mother, you stillmanage to hold on to what's
(26:46):
important to you too.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Absolutely.
And I think maybe where I'mcoming to is that the conclusion
or the synthesis of these ideasis that making memories with
kids really matters, but itdoesn't have to be extravagant
to make them.
You know, just like my own son,you know what's important to
(27:11):
him is making cookies.
Well, that's decorating cookies.
I mean like that's a fairly lowcost, you know, like that's not
as big as a you know someexpensive present or something.
So I guess that's kind of whereI'm coming down, that I think
for myself personally, I I amglad to have something less
austere at Christmas, yeah, butalso that doesn't mean it has to
(27:37):
be extravagant for it to bemeaningful.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
I think that makes sense.
It was funny.
This was the first year that Irealized and I'm kind of curious
about you.
Have you ever had a stocking?
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Yes, as an adult, Not this year.
I've given up on adults havingstockings, but let's talk about
it well, no, this is the firstyear.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
I realized I'm because, because, like, growing
up, obviously we didn't, andthen when we got married, matt
wouldn't have grown up with thateither.
So we just gave each othergifts, you know whatever.
But then I started doingstockings for the kids and all
of a sudden this year I realizedI've never had a stocking and I
(28:21):
don't know that it matters.
It was just like well, I thinkyou know, you.
You read these debates aboutshould adults have stockings and
and why is mom's stocking empty, which I can have a whole
conversation about that if youwant.
Yeah, if one partner gets astocking, then the other partner
(28:41):
should too.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
Oh, absolutely, and it should be filled.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
And if it's not, filled mom, or yeah, the empty
stocking gets to take the next24 hours and do whatever the
heck they want and buy whateverthe heck they want.
Don't hear me saying thatthat's not real.
Yes, but yeah, it was just aninteresting thought and I was
like, huh, I don't.
I've never had a stocking.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Yeah, yeah, so you did this year.
No, oh, no, you didn't, oh, soyou know it was okay.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
I thought maybe it was just okay, no, it was just
yeah.
Where I was like it was just no, it was just this year where I
was like oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Well, I would think that your children are to a
point now where it could be funfor them to help fill your
stocking.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
I'll have to ask them .
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Because I mean, I think that's you know stocking
stuffers it's accessible kind ofyou know.
And so they're young adults andthey're doing their thing.
But I guess something adjacentto that that has really sunk in
for me in a way that I didn'texpect the last few years is
being real clear about what Iwant and either buying it for
myself or somebody asks, tellingthem exactly electric drill, a
(29:57):
cordless drill, and you knowwhat.
The fact that I knew it wascoming did not diminish my
pleasure at seeing it at all.
And I have just found and Ithink other adults can identify
with this that now theanticipation of Christmas is
about giving the gifts ratherthan receiving.
But I think in making space forour own experience and I know
(30:18):
this depends on personality andvaries from person to person,
but I did not expect thatknowing what I was getting and
knowing was getting exactly whatI wanted, would be as
satisfying as it is- I thinkthat that is actually really
important and I fluctuatebetween between that, but then
(30:39):
there's a part of me that alsowants someone to know me well
enough to get what I want.
Mm, hmm, right oh the romance ofit.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
I go back and forth, I go right, I like spin Because
I agree with you.
I absolutely agree with you.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
You know, I heard a really good podcast about the
psychology of gift giving andthe ways we think about it
versus how it actually is, andthat tension came up quite a bit
about the surprise factor andhow important that is, and
somebody who was interviewed inthe show said that he and his
(31:20):
wife have a Google Doc and whensomething comes up that they
want, one or the other wants,they put it on their list in
that Google Doc, that sharedGoogle Doc, so when their
birthday or Christmas orwhatever is coming up, they can
the other person knows what theyspecifically want, but also
they don't know what they'regetting.
(31:41):
So there's still an element ofa surprise there, but also it's
there's a confidence that it'ssomething that the person, the
recipient, is going to want, andso I thought that sounded like
a really cool compromiseActually there's actually an app
that I just stumbled on.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
I think it's called Elfster.
Oh, I've heard of that.
It kind of does that, and Itold my family that next year
they're going to have todownload it and that's going to
be what we're going to work fromMm-hmm, I'm not so sure that.
For me, it's about the elementof surprise, though, as much as
(32:20):
like.
Isn't it gratifying whensomeone knows you well enough
that they bought something?
They or they saw something theythought of.
You bought it and it's like yes, that's me.
Like, does that make sense?
Like?
Speaker 2 (32:32):
I don't think it's not about the element of
surprise.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
It has nothing to do.
I think it's about the elementof being known.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Yeah yeah, I think the sad truth, rebecca, is that
not many people have the giftthat you do for doing that kind
of thing.
I think others have a reallyhard time.
I know I do keeping up with youwhen it comes to that kind of
thing.
I agree, it's beautiful.
It's beautiful.
I'm just sorry You're.
You're flying, you're soaringwith the Eagles and the rest of
(33:02):
us are down here with theturkeys.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
No, no, no no, no, I mean, and I don't know, maybe,
maybe, maybe there is somethingto that.
I don't know.
I Maybe, maybe there issomething to that.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
I don't know, I don't know, I just I just think that
there's something.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Really I agree, I agree with you, really cool with
it, because for me, for me,it's not the element of surprise
.
I don't think Like when Ispecifically ask for something
and specifically get it, I amthrilled.
Yes, I got three differentthings this year that been on my
Amazon list for probably twoyears, oh wow.
So, yes, I'm thrilled I got aBritain, not Britney Spears, oh
(33:46):
my God.
Taylor Swift, oh, vinyl.
I'm so excited.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
I got a Taylor Swift vinyl.
I know that's so excited.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
That's so cool, yeah, and so yeah, like getting
something you specifically wantand had and asked for.
I'm good with that too, like,yes, it's something I want.
It was something I had a hardtime spending the money for.
I had some jadeite that was onmy list.
I got that.
I'm thrilled, thrilled,thrilled, nice, thrilled,
(34:15):
thrilled, nice, nice, um, butyeah, it's just and it's
something I just think about.
There's something about, Ithink, being known right and
someone.
I had a friend that sent melike a fun ceramic christmas
light this year, just kind ofout of the blue, and I was like,
oh, so sweet, like so sweet yes, yes, yeah, no, that's
wonderful, no, I agree.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
I wonder if some of the disappointment, the letdown
after Christmas that we weretalking about a minute ago with
you know, especially with likewith children, to those of us
looking on it can look likethey're just ungrateful.
But I wonder to what extentit's disappointment at not being
seen.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Yes, yes, I wonder that too.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
And it's more about feeling a loss of connection
than about being greedy and hardto please.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Right, which I think brings us back full circle,
where I think is why thoseconversations are so important.
Instead of running on theassumptions which, granted,
we're busy, we're juggling a lotof different things.
Assumptions are so much easierand we all do that at some level
(35:27):
, but I think having thoseconversations is really
important to help people feellike they are seen.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
I would like to think , too, that there's a way that
we can give someone somethingthat makes them feel seen, that
was also on their wishlist, youknow.
Like there's you know what I'msaying Like there's a way that
you can do that where somethingabout the giving of it says that
(35:55):
they do or do not see you, Ithink you felt that with your
cordless drill.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
I felt that with my Taylor Swift vinyl.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
Well, and I got my boyfriend jeans and he likes
Levi's jeans, like the old ones,and they're hard to I mean,
they're impossible to find newRight and so I found some for
him on Etsy and it was.
It was kind of a gamble becausethen I was also reading that,
like you can't necessarily go bythe stated sizes and blah, blah
(36:26):
, blah, all that.
Anyway, they fit in perfectlyand he loves them.
So you know, that was something.
It took some effort on my partto find them and to sort through
everything that was online andso, even though he had been very
clear that, that that he waswanting them and and I was
asking him for details andmeasurements, I think the fact
(36:47):
that they well, a, we were luckyand they fit, because I mean,
he has done things like that forme too, like when I needed, I
wanted something.
This wasn't even a gift, but heknew I was looking for
something online and was havinga hard time finding it and he
went and found it for me andjust sent me the link.
(37:07):
You know that was reallythere's effort.
In that, you know, there'sabsolute and there's this
conscious.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Intention, there's effort in that, you know,
there's absolute and there'sthis conscious intention.
There's, yes and, and I thinkjust that the idea of being
thought about right like I, Iknew you well enough to know
you're looking for this.
Look what I found like theythought of you when they saw
that which, by the way, in someways, I think that's why reels
are so cool when friends send mereels, it's, it's like it's
(37:40):
like an extension ofconversations.
Maybe you haven't passed, yeahand, and it's like I saw this
and I thought about you is what,what is essentially being said,
which I think is absolutelylovely.
I mean, now, sometimes I wake upand I've got, you know, 15
different reels and I can almostnot work my way through all of
them, oh my goodness.
(38:00):
But I do the same thing, though.
Sure, I, you know, send.
I've sent you a gazillionUh-huh, uh-huh, and I think
there's something magical in thething of, thing of of.
I saw this, I heard this and Ithought of you.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Yeah, it's part of the conversation we were having.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Right, yeah, you know now I'm thinking about it.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Out of those 15, 10 of them were probably for me, so
sorry, do not apologize, likeno, no, no, no, don't apologize,
it's a gift, I think every timesomeone sends so maybe before
we wrap up we should kind ofcircle back around to our
broader topic of education andpivoting and midlife and all
(38:47):
that Do you want to share?
Speaker 2 (38:49):
I mean, you're heading into your last semester,
right.
Do you want to share whatthat's?
Speaker 1 (38:53):
looking like excited.
I am freaked out because Ithink I feel a lot of the
question.
I get a lot.
A lot is so what are you goingto do with your degree, which
(39:15):
I'm like?
You know?
I'm a responsible adult.
I should have at least a 10year plan for my life here with
my degree.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
And I don't.
I yeah, I have thoughts.
Go ahead and finish.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
I have thoughts, though, so so I think there's a
little bit of.
I've been working so hard toget this done for so long and I
don't have a 10 year plan for mylife which is a very real like
it's there.
There's another part of me whois just so freaking proud of
(39:49):
getting it done.
Like just so freaking proud, andthere's a part of me also who
doesn't care if I do nothingwith it ever.
I have done, we have all doneas good Amish, mennonite women
especially and I think that itgoes on to the broader community
(40:11):
world.
We do so much for other peoplefor free that if I worked hard
for this degree and never doanything with it, so be it.
I know my life is better for it.
It has absolutely challengedand changed the way I think
about things, the way I relateto people, and it has absolutely
(40:37):
helped me develop skills.
Yeah, so whether or not I makemoney with it, I think is almost
.
I don't think that's the point.
My life is better for it andthat's good enough.
And that's good enough.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
I could not agree more.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
And this is the first semester I have two classes
that I'm so excited about.
The one class that I have totake I'm not really excited
about oh, it's something boring,I forget, I forget what it's
called.
Even I think I'm going to haveto write a business plan, which
actually is going to be good forme, I think, because I think
(41:14):
I'm going to write a businessplan based on my idea of a tiny
home community type thing.
Oh, I love it.
Oh, I love it.
I love it, but why does it feelso boring to me?
I think all the details of itfeel like overwhelming.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
I don't like that kind of detail well, if you need
some, if you need some uhinspiration, um call me and I'll
gas you up I'm sure, I'm sureyou will, I will.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
Oh yeah, I think that's fantastic but I'm doing a
class on the rhetoric of godand in order to get scholarships
I had to take a minimum of twoclasses, and I only had one that
I had to do, yet to graduate.
And so the other two areelectives, so the rhetoric of
(41:55):
God is an elective and and.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
Is that like from a theology or like a, like a
religious studies perspective,or from like rhetoric?
Speaker 1 (42:05):
oh, it's in communications no, this is an
elective.
I should go in and look, okay,well that's okay, that's okay.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
I'm just curious what .
That's a good question angleyeah, and I'm sure we'll hear
about it this spring.
Yeah, yeah, I hope so.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
That sounds really interesting.
The other one is a death anddying class.
Whoa, I know I'm really excitedabout it.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
Whoa yeah.
Is that like a psychology?
Speaker 1 (42:34):
Again, I don't know, okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
I mean, it would sound like it.
I should know this.
Elizabeth Kugler-Ross.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
But both of them I'm like, so excited about and in
hindsight I'm kind of like Idon't know why I didn't take
more of a philosophy route asopposed to communications, but
whatever.
Yeah, because there's a part ofme that wonders if you're
hanging on, it's under English.
(43:03):
Does that make sense?
Oh wow, the rhetoric of God,the rhetoric of God.
So that would be more of athat's my subfield.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Yeah, yeah, okay, I'm going to have so many questions
for you once you get startedwith that.
I mean.
I love yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
So many questions.
The death and dying is whatdoes S-O-W-K stand for?
Social work?
Speaker 2 (43:27):
Oh, I bet I bet, that's what it is.
Yeah, oh, that sounds reallyinteresting.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
And I did this with the permission that if either
one ends up being boring like ifI don't jive with a professor
or if in any way the syllabuslooks overwhelming.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
I drop the class that fast.
Do you need a minimum of two?
Is that right?
Yeah, I need a minimum of twoin order to.
No, I think that's smart,that's really smart to do it
that way.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Not in order to graduate, but in order to have
my scholarships.
Oh, absolutely, absolutely yeah.
So, that's yeah.
So I was like okay, so I'mgoing to sign up for two that
get me excited and then if anyof them look boring,
overwhelming, like you know,whatever, I give myself the
(44:21):
right to drop them.
Okay, um, because again thissemester, even with the three
classes, I'm actually not payinga thing.
Whoa people out there.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
Work the scholarships , like if you're going to do
college, work the scholarshipsyeah, you have to beat the
bushes sometimes, but it's soworth it yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
And you're going to get rejections and you're going
to submit and not know if youactually qualify.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Do it Absolutely, just do it A hundred percent.
Yeah, I agree, I agree.
Wow, that sounds reallyexciting.
And, yes, like if you wouldshare that syllabus with me.
I would love to see it.
Speaker 1 (44:58):
I'm so curious about the rhetoric yeah so curious
about that.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
So, to go back to what you were saying earlier
about you know having a 10 yearplan and you know what, what
you're going to do with that.
You know all that.
It's such a shame that collegehas been reduced to job training
and so much of our in so manyof our minds.
And you know, I think, the waythat you have done it where you
have you've gone part-time youhave done it for your personal
(45:25):
satisfaction as opposed to for ajob.
Not that there's not a time andplace for that kind of thing,
but I, my personal opinion, thatis the ideal way to do college,
to do it and just kind offollow what you're interested in
, like that's a privilege,that's a it's.
It's not something thateverybody can do, but to me
that's the way to really get themost out of it, or to,
(45:49):
especially if you're interestedin, you know, expanding your
frame of reference, expandingyour knowledge of the world, you
know, learning skills, learningabout lots of things.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
Yeah, and there's a part of me that and I think
people are going to be able toidentify with this too.
I think part of it is just fromcoming out of a plain culture,
but I had so many jobs where Ihad to pay attention and educate
(46:23):
myself as I went because I didnot get professional training.
Right.
The assumption was I knew morethan I did and I was so often so
concerned that found out.
Also, I have had plenty ofpeople who would say that your
(46:47):
education doesn't matter.
But it absolutely did when itcame time to sign the paycheck.
But they love the work ethic Ibrought and they use that work
ethic to death.
Of course I had to do that, andI think many of us have had to
do that.
If I do nothing with thisdegree, I think I've still
(47:11):
earned my right to it.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
Absolutely.
Does that make sense?
Oh, my goodness, it has to.
In my mind the two arecompletely separate and I and I
know that's that's not how it'stypically talked about in, you
know, public discourse.
But like it is not about jobtraining, it's about learning
(47:34):
and expanding and and and anddeveloping yourself, and like
it's convenient when those twothings intersect, and and that,
and that's not a problem.
But it's about so much morethan that and I agree with you
because my guess is, given thekind of major you're graduating
(47:55):
with and given what I know ofyour circumstances and
everything, probably it's notgoing to make a dramatic
difference once you do have thatdegree right, like in your work
life, that kind of thing.
Is that your sense?
Speaker 1 (48:09):
I think I will be able.
I mean, it's a negotiating chip.
It's a negotiating chipAbsolutely.
I don't think it's going togive me any extra or any.
I'm not going to see any majorwage increase in it.
(48:29):
At the end of the day, I'm a50-year-old who has had weird
gaps in her resume work historyher resume, work history, and
you can argue 100 different wayswhether or not I actually have
experience in my field.
(48:49):
Don't get me started.
I know, I know.
And the frustrating thing isand I just keep having
conversations about this I had ayoung mom, or I had a mom who
was freaking out just a littlebit because her daughter, whom
she thinks is way too young, isgetting married, and my response
was at least your daughter hasan education, which is more than
(49:10):
what some of these girls have.
And she's like very true,absolutely agreed.
Yeah, I will fight all day longfor especially females to get
an education.
What the world does to youwithout one oftentimes is
devastating Absolutely.
(49:30):
And I think I am probably latein life enough.
I'm never going to see afinancial payoff.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
Which is unfortunate, but and this does not discount
any of the impact that you'retalking about there I mean
that's very real and not the wayit should be.
And also, like I look at howmany years of education that I
have versus someone who had, youknow, who got an accounting
(50:00):
degree, an undergrad, or who youknow got a nursing degree, and
I don't make near what they makeand I never will, and so I
guess what I'm saying is life ishorribly unfair when it comes
to education and pay scales.
I mean, there's you have thestatistical, there's the
(50:20):
statistical trends, but then,but individually they're so it
just makes no sense.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
Well?
And who decided even thatmedical doctors should make the
money they're making, butpsychologists don't?
Speaker 2 (50:36):
Oh well, I know Like what in the world.
Who decided that it's soarbitrary, so arbitrary?
Speaker 1 (50:45):
Yeah, yeah, like most therapists barely make a living
wage at first and we decidedthat mental health doesn't
matter as much.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
So yeah, I hear your point too.
Speaker 2 (50:58):
And I'm not saying that to diminish the unfortunate
reality that you're facing Tome.
The bigger point is that, yes,it's worth it, that education is
worth it.
It doesn't have to be justifiedby you know, earning potential
If it's meaningful to you.
Speaker 1 (51:27):
You, that's what I was trying to say and you got
there very much.
You got there much moreeloquently than I did.
Yeah, exactly, and I think Ithink for so long I did feel the
sense of, or this need tojustify what.
Speaker 2 (51:37):
I was doing yeah, understandably, I mean, that's
what?
Speaker 1 (51:40):
And the truth of it was I was overwhelmed working.
I was overwhelmed with kids.
I was and I'm doing college,you know whatever part time.
So I was overwhelmed with thatand I'm like I need to come up
with a plan.
I need to come up with a plan,but the truth was I for several
years there, I was simply juststaying afloat.
Yeah, and I'm veryintentionally working on
(52:04):
releasing myself from the needto justify it.
Good, and typically people askme I'm just like I'm learning
that when I do the next rightthing, life works out Like I'll
say something generic like thatyes.
Speaker 2 (52:20):
Go for it, like that's wonderful, like normalize
that yeah, that's my, you know.
Normalize getting an educationfor an education's sake.
For what it?
For?
The all the personal benefits.
Yeah, I mean because, say youwere to find yourself in a
crisis situation, like you knowhow to navigate to create new
(52:43):
opportunities for yourself,right, so doing it for just your
personal benefit is what'swonderful, a wonderful way to do
it.
Speaker 1 (52:52):
And you know, for the sake of argument, let's say
something horrible does happento Matt.
This would give me moreopportunities than if I didn't
have it.
Speaker 2 (53:02):
Absolutely.
I mean you could go into any,like, say, master's level field
Right, not any, but virtuallyany and within a couple of years
significantly increase your paypotential.
And your bachelor's degree hasset you up for that, right, yeah
, yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
Well, and even if I were just to go find a full time
job, I do think, or thebachelor's, the bachelor's would
give me a negotiating powerthat I would have had previously
.
But but in truthfulness,oftentimes as well, people are
assuming I'm getting my master'sdoctorate and I'm like, nope,
(53:43):
just a bachelor's.
And I say that to createawareness.
You people, you will get thosequestions.
If you're late in life gettingan education, you will get that.
The assumption is and I'mlearning to respect what is and
it's worth fighting for, it'sworth fighting for what you want
(54:05):
.
Speaker 2 (54:06):
Yes, absolutely, and sometimes money isn't
necessarily the it doesn't needto be the motivating, the
driving factor.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:18):
Agreed, agreed, yeah, yeah, yeah.
What does your semester looklike?
Speaker 2 (54:23):
Well, I'm going to be teaching a college writing
class, which I usually do mostsemesters, and that's one that
I've kind of redesigned aroundthe assumption that my students
are dealing with executivefunctioning deficits for a whole
host of reasons.
I find that many of them are.
So I have had a lot of funfine-tuning that, you know, and
(54:47):
presenting it in different ways,and it's oftentimes the first
time.
It's kind of a fun adventurefor both the students and me.
Let's put it that way.
The other one is a grant writingclass, and in the past yeah, in
the past I've taught this class.
We've worked with a communitypartner, like a local nonprofit,
to give the students actualgrant writing experience.
(55:08):
That's not working out thistime, but I am talking with some
folks on campus, and so I'mhoping that we're going to be
able to find some projectsaround campus that the students
can write proposals for, youknow, and by the time, by the
end of the semester, like theywill, they will not have
(55:29):
submittable drafts.
I mean, that's not theexpectation, that's that's,
that's unrealistic, but at leastif they can, you know, get, get
a head start on some of thosethings and maybe have a good
concept.
Speaker 1 (55:40):
Have a good concept, absolutely have some and have
some those things and have agood concept.
Speaker 2 (55:43):
Have a good concept Absolutely, and have some actual
experience Right and have asense.
And it's so messy.
It's such a messy, it can besuch a messy process and there's
so much, but I think justgetting them, giving them the
opportunity to get their handsdirty, is a big part of it.
So I've found some new teachingmaterials.
So right now my living room islittered with piles of papers as
(56:07):
I'm trying to sort throughstuff that we've done before,
but then maybe I don't want todo this time.
I want to place it with thisand oh, it's such a giant puzzle
, but it's all good.
It's all good, and so I'm almostdone with the syllabus, and
then I have to get the learningmanagement system all set up,
and then, of course, the writingcenter, and we're working on
(56:29):
some special projects there thatI'm really excited about, and
this is shifting a little bit.
But over Christmas I had aconversation with Liberty, my
daughter, who's in 10th grade,and college is like breathing
down our necks almost.
And I had a conversation withLiberty, my daughter, who's in
10th grade and college is likebreathing down our necks almost.
And I wanted to have aconversation with her to kind of
(56:49):
set the tone, like, okay, whatdo you want my involvement to
look like?
As your mom, you know, what doyou want my?
And I knew it would bestressful, the conversation
alone would be stressful, and soI just said, hey, look, I just
want to know what, what you wantfrom me, like what, what, what
would help help you feel goodabout that?
And so we talked about it and I, I think by the end of the
(57:10):
conversation she was feeling alittle less stressed, a little
bit more calm about it, becausewhat I told her was like at this
point in the process, you arejust collecting information.
Yeah, you're just collecting,and people are going to ask you
what major are you going to bein?
People are asking that becausethey're trying to start a
conversation with you.
You don't have to know, you'reunder no obligation to know,
(57:33):
right, and I gave her somescripts that she can say some
language for those situations.
That's really interesting to beon this side of things.
Speaker 1 (57:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (57:43):
And where do we even start?
So yeah, so that's, that's onmy deck, it's, it's huge, it
feels huge, oh and, and shewants to, she wants to get out
of the midwest oh, althoughalthough she is aware that the
the cost might be an issue.
So um I think, I think if shefound herself in a nice little
(58:05):
college town in the Midwest, Ithink it might kind of be the
best of both worlds for her.
Speaker 1 (58:09):
But we'll see.
Tell her that.
Interestingly enough, ohio isconsidered Midwest too, which
there's all kinds of argumentsabout that, but Ohio is yeah.
Speaker 2 (58:22):
Okay so.
Speaker 1 (58:23):
I think Ohio is yeah, okay, so it would still be a
lower cost of living.
Speaker 2 (58:26):
Is that what you're saying?
Because she wants to get out ofthe Midwest.
Speaker 1 (58:29):
Right, right, Right, but yeah, Ohio.
I think, is the start of theMidwest which many people debate
.
Speaker 2 (58:38):
And I hear the debates, you know whatever.
Speaker 1 (58:40):
But so be it.
Speaker 2 (58:42):
So it might be the best of both worlds for her.
Then I'm not saying Ohio is thebest of all the worlds.
Speaker 1 (58:50):
Not saying that.
But yeah, I.
But yeah, college is a big deal, it is.
It feels big, it feels big.
Speaker 2 (58:58):
And another thing I told her is like, look, you
can't mess this up, like if yougo to a place and it turns out
you don't like it, you can dosomething else and it's going to
be OK.
And and you know someone in herposition, she has got adults.
She has not one but two homesshe can land in if she needs to.
And I just really tried toreassure her that this is she
(59:23):
doesn't have to have it allfigured out.
Yeah, at the beginning and andyes, that is privileged, a
privileged position to be in andembrace it it's a privileged
position, but maybe it's more asit should be.
Speaker 1 (59:35):
Absolutely like what if we would make college to be
this, this, this, this Highstakes, yeah, and what if we
would make college affordable sothat all the liberties of the
world don't have to be firstgeneration students?
Exactly, exactly Like, maybe.
Maybe it's as it should be.
Speaker 2 (59:57):
Agreed, I agree.
I love that framing of it.
I'm going to tell her that too.
Yeah, so I guess we're aboutout of time and hopefully we'll
be on back on the mic soonerrather than later.
Speaker 1 (01:00:11):
Otherwise we can just congratulate ourselves next
time we get back here.
Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
Right, right, and we've got some ideas for
podcasts coming up.
Last, tango in Halifax is ashow that we were talking about,
good Omens is another one, andwe were thinking maybe we should
do a recap, some recaps ofthose shows.
So if anybody, wants to watchalong.
That that would be a lot of fun.
(01:00:36):
But if listeners, if you've gotideas, topics, things you'd
like for us to talk about,especially related to this
intersection of midlife, pivotsand education and cycle breaking
and deconstruction and all thethings, you can drop us a note
in the link in our podcast andit'll come to us as a text, so
(01:00:57):
you don't even have to open upyour email that way.
So well, you know what I wantto congratulate myself for
something.
I don't think this is such anaccomplishment for you, but it
is for me.
I find myself often feelingvery insecure having a
free-flowing conversation likethis on the mic.
Something about being on themic always freaks me out.
(01:01:18):
And here we are at the end andI'm surprised it's gone as well
as it has.
Speaker 1 (01:01:22):
So Naomi, I was just thinking the same thing.
I was thinking, you know, thiswent amazingly smoothly, like
yeah, yeah, is this the podcastwhere we congratulate ourselves
coming in and as we exit?
Speaker 2 (01:01:40):
I don't know if that is a good thing or if it's
pathetic, but oh well it's whowe are.
Speaker 1 (01:01:47):
It's who we are.
I say we own it and run with it, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (01:01:51):
All right, folks, we'll see you next time.
Take care.
Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
Thank you for spending time with us today.
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
What are your thoughts about college and
recovery from high demandreligion?
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences, and
we want to talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atuncoveredlifebeyondatgmailcom.
That'suncoveredlifebeyondatgmailcom.
Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode Until
next time.
Speaker 2 (01:02:49):
stay brave, stay bold , stay awkward.
Thank you,
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