January 12, 2025 • 57 mins
What advice would we give our younger, deconstructing selves if we could go back in time a decade or two? Join us, Rebecca and Naomi, as we reflect on the process of discovering ourselves beyond the confines of a prescribed religious identity. Inspired by an Instagram post by religious harm recovery coaches Cara and Rachael, we share six transformative insights that anyone redefining their identity might find helpful. From embracing emotions like anger as a powerful healing force to challenging the narrative that women must maintain relationships at any cost, we explore how letting go of guilt and shame can reveal deeper truths about ourselves and the world around us. In the process, we found that embracing the reality of our humanity and accepting that mistakes are unavoidable didn't destroy our lives as we'd been warned, but instead opened a path to authenticity and meaningful relationships.
Cara and Rachael, Religious Harm Recovery Coaches
IG: @happywholeway
Resources we should have mentioned:
The Dance of Anger by Harriet Lerner
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
This is Rebecca and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path Along the
way, we've uncovered a fewinsights we want to share with
fellow travelers.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up, we are here to cheeryou on and assure you that the
best is yet to come.
Welcome to Uncovered LifeBeyond.
Hello everyone, Welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.
(01:08):
This is Naomi.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
And this is Rebecca.
So here we are, our second weekin Look at us showing up.
I feel like we have tocelebrate this every chance we
get.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
I know, I know as sad as that is.
Well, you know, this week Icame across a post on Instagram
that caught my eye and I sent itto you and said, hey, we should
talk about this.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
And I said, yes, we should.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
So it's an Instagram post titled Six Things I Wish I
Knew when I Left the Church 19Years Ago, and it's by Kara and
Rachel, religious harm recoverycoaches.
I'm not really familiar withthis account and with Kara and
Rachel, but I follow them onFacebook, or at least their
stuff is coming up in my feed onFacebook, or at least their
(02:06):
stuff is coming up in my feed,and their handle on IG is at
happyholeway and we'll link allthis up in the show notes.
But yeah, these six thingsreally resonated with us and we
thought maybe they wouldresonate with some of our
listeners too.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
And I think it's kind of important maybe to point out
that while the title says whenI left the church, I think
things, these ideas, theseconcepts would be helpful even
(02:51):
if a person didn't leave church.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Or if you're leaving the Amish Mennonite community,
or if you're leaving Some kindof distinctive community, or it
could even be like a place ofwork or something, some kind of
identity that has been reallycentral in your life and you're
kind of reconfiguring all that.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Right, because probably like if I were titling
this, I would say six things Iwish I knew when I started
deconstructing 19 years ago.
There you go, there you go.
I think.
Anytime we start changing orchallenging old narratives and
in some way recreating ourselves, I think these points are very
(03:38):
important to remember.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yeah, absolutely so.
The first one is your anger isgoing to heal you.
You've been taught to be a goodlittle girl and push it down
for so long.
It's okay to be angry for aslong as you need.
It won't always feel like thisWow, they just jumped right in,
(04:00):
didn't they?
Kind of did jumped right in,didn't they Kind of did you know
?
I think anger is oftendemonized in a lot of religious
spaces, especially when it'sseen as it's necessarily going
to hurt someone.
It's seen as you have to eithertamp it down and repress it and
(04:24):
do all that, or you're going tobe.
If you feel your anger, you'renecessarily going to be
destructive, and there's noprocessing it.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
There's no processing it.
But also I find it sofascinating that in religious
communities often anger is theone emotion men are allowed to
have.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
But it's the emotion that women are most demonized
for.
In fact, if a woman is harmedand gets angry, that anger
invalidates the harm sheexperienced.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
And I think the truth is like these emotions will
tell you so much about yourself.
Emotions like anger andresentment inform me of what's
going on and I think sometimesit can be so uncomfortable and
(05:23):
unpleasant to sit in thoseemotions, but I think it is
probably one of the best giftswe can give to ourselves to sit
with it.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Right, because sitting with it doesn't
necessarily mean lashing out, itdoesn't necessarily mean doing
anything destructive, but itmeans to radically accept.
Yeah, I am angry, and maybe thatdoes mean screaming out in the
woods or somewhere or into apillow or whatever that might be
, but just acknowledging it andfeeling that feeling in our body
(05:58):
and not trying to run away fromit.
It's a skill that I think few ofus were raised with, and yet
not only for anger, but also,yeah, for other things like
resentment, grief, sadness, youknow, just a whole host of
things.
And I think so often we goright to either spiritual
(06:20):
bypassing, where we want to do ashortcut to everything will
work out, or you know God won'tgive you anything more than you
can bear, or whatever cliche isapplied, or that I mean we're
just, we're scared of theseemotions because we're afraid if
we acknowledge them, thenthey're going to, they're going
(06:41):
to be with us forever and we'regoing to be miserable forever.
And the reality is that when weprocess those emotions so often
like they actually don't hangaround that long, when you sit
with them and acknowledge themand think about what they're
signaling, and I think theseemotions are truth tellers and
(07:04):
it's important that we payattention.
Right, and I think one of thereasons this can happen or like
we can have the freedom to dothis when we leave a say, a high
demand, religious community orsomething like that is it might
be the first time when we aren'tneeding to defend ourselves
(07:24):
from blame or shame.
It might be the first time thatwe're free to process and to
just say, yeah, I'm angry, I'mmad, I'm bitter, yeah, and say
that with the full confidencethat you're still a person who's
worthy of dignity and respect,being treated with dignity and
respect.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Absolutely.
That's a new concept for a lotof us it's a new concept and
it's so very important.
So number two is your religiousprogramming doesn't fully go
away just because you left thechurch.
There will still be things thatbring those old beliefs back up
to the surface.
And don't panic, this istotally normal.
(08:06):
There are ways to help withthis.
And boy howdy, isn't this true?
It's so interesting to me howthings you haven't thought about
songs, you haven't thoughtabout, verses you haven't
thought about, like boom, all ofa sudden it pops up and you can
(08:27):
quote a whole chapter.
Yes, but then also, I think,just ideologies.
I'm watching one of my kidsdate without any of the purity
culture expectations.
The child has no concept ofpurity culture and it's
fascinating how those myexpectations or not expectations
(08:53):
, but my knee-jerk belief, myknee-jerk belief of what dating
should look like, which I knowis false but yet watching this
child move through therelationship without a concept
of that is just so interesting.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
And Is it like you become aware of default settings
that you didn't even realizewere still there?
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Yes, yes, and it's like, even though you know these
default settings are wrong andnot at all what you even believe
, they're still there.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
And I think sometimes we're surprised by them.
But I also see this sometimesin, maybe, conversations that
folks who are in more mainstreamcontexts Maybe they're watching
a documentary or reading a bookabout someone who has left a
high demand religious communityor something like that and
(09:52):
sometimes there seems to be thisassumption that when they leave
, a switch is flipped and theyare now automatically going to
see everything like a whitemiddleclass American.
And the reality is those earlyexperiences have such a strong
influence on how we think, howwe process things, how we
(10:15):
approach life, how we approachrelationships, and we often
don't become aware of thosedefault settings until something
comes along, just like what youwere describing, and brings it
to our attention and it'sunrealistic to expect that
(10:35):
somehow those past experiencesaren't going to affect us.
But then the good news is thatour neural pathways are
changeable plastic they are.
You know, we aren't stuck beingthat same person.
We can.
We can change these things.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Which kind of takes us to our next point.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
You'll spend many years trying to fix yourself
because your religiousprogramming so deeply convinced
you that you are broken, there'snothing to fix.
The moment you realize thatyour job is to care for, not
cure yourself, everything willshift within you.
Whoa, yeah, this is the one.
(11:16):
This is the one that really hitme.
Yeah, because this is one ofthose pathways, one of those
concepts, those default settingsthat has stuck with me for a
long time.
I mean, I'm such a sucker Ihave been such a sucker for
self-help books and I've learnedto moderate but more
(11:38):
importantly is realizing like,oh, I'm not defective.
When there is an issue, when Ifeel anger, for example, or
resentment or something likethat, it's not like, oh, that
anger or that resentment needsto be cured and needs to be
(11:58):
ejected, but that it's trying totell me something and I need to
care for myself.
And it's probably telling me,it's probably bringing to my
attention something that has notbeen cared for, that needs
attention.
How's this manifested itself inyour life?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Oh, this has been huge for me, because I deeply
bought into the logic that if Ido the right thing, if I can
just magically do the rightthing, that that will free God
to work in other people's lives.
And so when relationships weredifficult, I automatically
(12:35):
assumed that I needed to fixmyself.
And so Rebecca would scurry offto the therapist and truly
attempt to fix whatever wasbroken inside herself and for
whatever it's worth.
I think we should pay attentionto who typically goes to the
(12:57):
therapist first.
I truly think we need to payattention to this, because I
think a lot of weight is put onwomen to hold relationships
together, To absorb to absorball the the impact, absorb all
(13:18):
the tension, absorb all that andcompensate for it, and
compensate for it.
Yeah, and I finally actually hada therapist look at me and
almost chuckle and say oh honey,there is no way you can fix
yourself properly.
You're the only one who wantsthis fixed.
(13:40):
And it was in that moment thatI realized this right here was
in that moment that I realizedthis, right here, and I just
think it's so very importantthat we recognize this and start
viewing ourselves with care andcompassion and quit holding
responsibility for relationshipdynamics that are not ours to
(14:05):
hold.
And when we find ourselves inrelationships where we're the
only one who wants things tochange, I think that is our
first sign that maybe we have aproblem.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Yeah, maybe we're going in different directions.
Yeah, yeah, that's a tough,that is a tough reality to
accept.
Well, and I think one of thethings that we had chatted about
too was that deconstruction,deconstructing, goes so much
deeper than behaviormodification.
And I think part of that sense,of that sense that we have to
(14:41):
fix this problem, we have tocure ourselves, is about
behavior modification.
Yeah, and when we make thisshift, it changes how we see the
problem or what we see as theproblem right, so that instead
of this view where I'm theproblem, clearly I'm not doing
something right, either I'vesinned in my life or I'm not
(15:04):
following the formula correctlyand immediately with that
problem comes guilt and shamefor being human, and it and it
shuts us down, it keeps us quietas long as we possibly can,
because so we don't have toreveal our guilt and shame to
everyone else.
But this shift helps us see, ohwait, no, there's a problem
(15:27):
here and I don't need to feelguilt and shame about it.
I can work on it, I can getcurious about it, I can pay
attention to it and try tofigure out what it's trying to
tell me, and I can do thatwithout feeling that sense of
guilt and shame.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Absolutely, and I think that deconstruction and
use whatever word you want, butI think the process of
deconstruction scares peoplewith power and in leadership.
When I see someone on socialmedia railing about the evils of
deconstruction, I just think,oh, that's someone who's
(16:07):
grasping for power.
Oh, that's someone who'sgrasping for power.
Guilt and shame is the currencythe church holds.
That's the currency that theyhold to keep people in line.
And deconstruction changesthings at a deeper level and it
changes the way you think, itchanges the way you process and
(16:28):
I just think it's reallyimportant that we let go of that
guilt and shame.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Yeah, when we have that sense of guilt and shame,
it automatically brings ourfocus back on what did I do
wrong, right, and when we let goof that, then we can get other
parts of the problem.
We can look beyond that andthat doesn't serve the folks who
want to keep us.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
But then you can start calling out the pollution
that's going on in theenvironment.
Ooh, that's a problem?
Yeah, it is, and I think it'sso basic, even down to like an
easy one to point at.
Is sexuality?
It's a part of being human, butsomehow the church has taken
(17:18):
this and made the range of whatis acceptable sexual activity so
incredibly narrow that it setspeople up to fail, but then they
double down in the guilt andthen it becomes this vicious
cycle of people being controlledagain by their guilt.
(17:39):
But the problem, the realproblem, still exists.
Whether it is objectifyingwomen, whether it is, you know,
whatever it is, it isobjectifying women, whether it
is you know whatever whatever itis, those objectifying women,
whether it's done through pornor through purity culture right.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Either way, women are objectified.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Right, but rarely do we talk, rarely do religious
leaders talk about that issue.
Rather, they want to talk aboutthe evils of porn or the jazz
bells in the street, instead ofgetting real about are we
valuable or not?
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Right, and I think in those situations, usually
talking about abuse or bringingit up, pointing it out, is a
much larger transgression thanthe abuse itself, and absolutely
.
And the problem and I thinkthat's because how those systems
see that abuse, what they seeas the problem of the abuse, is
(18:48):
not that someone's hurt, notthat someone's harmed, not that
someone's been taken advantageof, but it's that.
Oh well, it's because somethingoutside the acceptable range
has taken place.
That's the offense, and so thatpower differential between the
person who was harmed and thepredator is not acknowledged and
that makes it very easy forthat person with less power, the
person who was harmed, tobecome the scapegoat.
(19:11):
And I don't need to.
Anyone who's paying attentionto the news knows that no
institution, religious orsecular, is immune from this
kind of thing happening.
The thing is that in a lot ofreligious institutions this
dynamic is reinforced in thename of God and victims are
(19:36):
further harmed in the name ofGod, and there's no effort to
stop this harm.
That's.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Right, it's damning, it's damning and I worry that if
the church doesn't get a handleon that, and fast, they're
going to continue to shrink,they're going to continue to get
smaller be actively protectingpredators.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
You know, it's not just.
I mean, for a long time it'sbeen we don't know, we don't
know.
And now it turns out more andmore do know, they knew and
(20:20):
they've been looking out not forthe, not for the vulnerable.
They've been looking out forthe predators, yep and and it's
they're.
They're losing, losingcredibility fast and the numbers
show it.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Which brings me to one of my theories.
I think that it's thescapegoats that tend to leave
first.
Often, the scapegoat iscriticized.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
critiqued Because they're the truth teller.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Yeah, they're the truth teller.
You know, I think the scapegoatlives in a world, you know,
some people live in a worldwhere they see the world as it
could be, so they romanticize.
You know, I think the scapegoatlives in a world, you know,
some people live in a worldwhere they see the world as it
could be, so they romanticize,you know, whatever.
And then some people live in aworld where they see the world
as it is.
But I think the scapegoat maybelives in both.
They can see the world as it is, but they can also see it as it
(21:07):
could be, as it should be, asit's been promised, yeah.
But they can also see it as itcould be, as it should be, as
it's been promised, yeah.
And I think oftentimes thescapegoat kind of believes at
first that they are the problem,and so they attempt to fix
things and in that process theybecome, they immerse themselves
(21:28):
in self-help, in therapy,whatever it is, whatever it is,
they become healthier.
And then it's like, oh, andsuddenly they realize that maybe
they aren't the problem.
But then guess what?
You're demonized for leaving,and there's a whole new
narrative, because now you'veleft.
And I'm always fascinated athow toxic or dysfunctional
(21:54):
families, dysfunctionalcommunities have to have their
scapegoats.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Right, and I think when you often scratch beneath
the surface, you find like yes,they were the truth tellers, so
they have to be demonized, sopeople won't treat them with
dignity and respect, so theywon't be be heard.
But then also, by leaving Right, they've.
They've stopped trying toconform, they've stopped trying
to meet expectations, and thatis also taken to offense.
(22:22):
But here's the other thing,though, that I think is really
important is to recognize howalmost reflexive this is, like
you would think everybody'sfollowing the same playbook
because it's so predictable, andI don't think it's necessarily
being done consciously all thetime.
I would agree Right.
(22:43):
And so I think sometimes wedon't give enough credence to
the way that things can kind ofhappen without any kind of
official machinations.
What I'm saying is like thesethings don't have to be
explicitly stated for thesedynamics to be present.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Well, and if you think about it, our very
theology is built on a scapegoat.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
That's right, which I think is fascinating and
something that needs its own,probably five episodes, but the
very way we think about ourtheology is based on
scapegoating.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Yeah, you're right, you're right.
So number four, based onscapegoating yeah, you're right,
you're right.
So number four is being hard onyourself won't change the past.
The way forward is throughcuriosity and compassion.
And I think this ties in withwhat we were saying a minute ago
about how we don'tautomatically change everything
(23:47):
when we make these shifts inlife, because when we do see the
world in a new way, when wehave a major identity shift, it
can be easy to look back andkind of call ourselves out for
all the ways we did things wrongin the past, and I think that's
(24:08):
just another avenue of shameand guilt and I just don't think
that's going to do anybody anygood.
And I think that's just anotheravenue of shame and guilt and I
just don't think that's goingto do anybody any good.
And I think recognizing we'rehuman, accepting radically
accepting I'm a human, livinglife without making mistakes was
never an option.
Mistakes are how I learn aboutmyself in the world.
That's how we can approachthese things with curiosity and
(24:30):
compassion, and it's just somuch more freeing than when we
see it with judgment andcriticism you know, learning to
live with curiosity, I justthink, has been one of the best
gifts I've given myself.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
And when you think about it, this focusing on
getting things right and notmaking a mistake requires a
focus on a formula, and thatformula invariably keeps us
trapped and spinning and weblame ourselves for getting it
wrong, or we blame our kids,because we did the right things
but now they're not doing theright things.
And I think these formulas areso dang attractive.
(25:07):
I mean, that's Dr Dobson,that's Bill Gothard, that is all
these parenting theories, these, you know, the self-help gurus,
yes, yes.
And it keeps us in thatconstant hamster wheel when the
truth of it, is very few of uswhen we think about people and
(25:30):
relationships we truly admireand want to be with.
Rarely is it the people who areperfect we're not necessarily
attracted to perfection Peoplewho show up with dignity but
authenticity.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Transparency.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Yeah, and even in parenting it's a joke to think
we're going to get it right.
So if we show up insisting thatwe've got it right and we show
up trying to be perfect, we loseour ability to apologize when
we get it wrong.
And getting it wrong and beingable to be like oh shoot, I am
so sorry.
(26:09):
I wish I would have done thatdifferently.
How did that make you feel?
I mean, that is whererelationships happen.
But if we convince ourselves.
yeah, if we convince ourselveswe're getting it right and we've
got the perfect formula, thenwe don't have to show up and
bother with apologizing and I'mnot so sure that leaders don't
(26:32):
usually apologize.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Or if they do it, it's very strategic yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Yeah, I agree, and I think things really shifted for
me when I stopped feeling thatit was my job to keep my kids
from doing immature, dumb things.
I mean, let's just say it, youknow, because I think it's so
(26:58):
easy for us as parents to putpressure on ourselves that you
know our children's actions area reflection on us and so
therefore, if they, if I get acall from school, there's a
problem with my parenting, andfor me it has been so freeing
and it has made space for thoserelationships, for that
connection to build.
When I'm not surprised thatimmature things are happening at
(27:24):
school and we learn from it andwe grow, but also when my
children are not expecting shameand blame, we can have an open
conversation about it and we cantalk about what would be a
better way to handle thesituation next time, and so
there's open for learning.
They're not in that flight,flight, flight, flight I can't
(27:47):
talk fight or flight mode wherethey are trying to defend
themselves and they can't hearanything.
I'm trying to teach them.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
But then it also gives space for them to show up
and take responsibility.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Which that is so important.
I think there's a lot of adultsthat don't know how to show up
and take responsibility fortheir act.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Well, if making a mistake, if messing up,
automatically means that I'mlosing dignity and respect in
the eyes of the people around me, of course we can't admit.
You know, it's just the humanego is not going to allow us to
admit our failures and takeresponsibility and do something
(28:33):
different.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
And it's phenomenal what can happen when we accept
our humanity, accept thehumanity of people around us and
, in that, accept that mistakesare part of life and that we are
all still worthy of dignity andrespect, even when we make a
(29:05):
mistake at different points, bydifferent people, and I would
feel anger, maybe at them, buteven more strongly I would
question my value or what therole I played in it and and what
you did wrong.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
like you're saying like what you did wrong, what
you did, yeah, or like why wouldthey?
Speaker 2 (29:28):
do that Like what?
Why?
Why would a person behave that?
Speaker 1 (29:32):
way, and with an assumption that your behavior is
what triggered it.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Yeah, and this kind of brings us back to the thing
of being hard on yourself won'tchange the past and opening
yourself up for curiosity andcompassion.
What I finally realized isyourself up for curiosity and
compassion.
What I finally realized is soif you get a snake bite, we're
not going to go find the snakeand ask the snake, why did you
bite me?
Why would you do that?
(29:59):
No, we focus on healing.
We focus on ridding our body ofthe poison.
I don't know what do you dowhen you get bit by a snake.
I don't know, it hasn'thappened to me, but anyway, if I
get bit by a snake, I know I'mnot going to go talk to the
snake.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Absolutely Definitely not that.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
And so I think we spend a lot of time imagining a
sort of apology orreconciliation or accountability
.
That probably is not going tohappen and I think the sooner we
can let go of that.
And for me, in my head, this isdifferent from forgiveness.
(30:35):
For me, and maybe it's the samething, but in my head it feels
different.
For me it was more about acuriosity of why are you blaming
yourself in the first place?
What if it has no reflection ofyou?
What if it was about them?
And the phrase I tell myself iswhat if it's not about you?
(30:58):
What if it's not about you?
And it allowed me to put alittle bit of space between the
hurt and the harm that was doneand even maybe offer a little
bit of the same curiosity andcompassion to the snake Not that
I necessarily want arelationship with it, but
(31:19):
acknowledging they have theirown stuff.
And sometimes things that happenhas so little to do about me.
It's their stuff and I justhappen to be at the wrong place
at the wrong time.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Right, right, yeah, I think that is so important
because whether it was actuallythere or it's just the
impression that I got, that Ipicked up, but it seems like so
much of the material onrelationships that I was raised
with put the onus on me for it,and I remember even going into
(31:58):
adulthood and feeling, reallyfeeling a sense of failure if
relationships kind of went indifferent directions.
You know, and I remembersomebody telling me you're
actually at a stage in lifewhere it's normal to kind of go
in different directions frompeople that you've known before.
Like that's not really, youdon't have to keep being best
(32:18):
friends with everybody you know,right, right, and I really
appreciate that normalizing that, and because I think we can put
a lot of unnecessary pressureon ourselves to feel like we
have to make sure everybodylikes us and we don't.
They don't have to like us.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
And you know what?
Yeah, that is one of the mostfreeing discoveries of my life.
I don't have to be everyone'scup of tea, that's fine, but no
one has to love me.
No one has to expect no one hasto love me, no one has to
respect me, no one has to evenbe nice to me.
But guess what?
I don't have to show up forless than that either.
Right, and it's like so freeing, like no one.
(32:59):
I don't have to expect someoneto value me that's fine if you
don't but neither do I have toshow up and convince you to do
that for me.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Right, right, they don't have to.
Doesn't change the fact thatyou are worthy of respect and
dignity and validation, and alsoyou don't have to stick around
for it.
Nope, absolutely.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
I love that so much so, number five, you'll make a
meaningful life for yourselfAgain, you'll find your people
and it will be even better thanyou expected.
Just be patient.
It takes time to rebuild.
Oh, this one's tough, thisone's scary, but I have found it
to be so true.
You know, when we're followingformulas, we kind of, I think,
(33:46):
lose pieces of ourselves, and Iknow I certainly didn't know who
I was in that mix, and I'm suremost people around me didn't
know who I was, because we'reall kind of trying to be the
same person.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Yeah, play a role, play that expected role, not
stand out too much.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
And, weirdly enough, the more you become honest about
who you are and what you wantin life, I think the more people
kind of get who you are andit's going to offend some people
they'll walk away.
But I've found that therelationships I do have, and the
relationships that developed oreven lasted, become much more
(34:28):
authentic, much more real, andit's not based on that perceived
expectation or the perceivednarrative that we were told to
be, and I think within that youdevelop a confidence that was
missing before.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Certainly not encouraged.
Right right, well.
And you can't have a lot ofconfidence when you're
constantly self-doubting, whenyou're constantly questioning
yourself.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
And isn't that the point?
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Yeah, exactly.
You know, in listening toconversations about
deconstruction from any numberof religious groups or even more
secular high-demand groups,something that is mentioned
again and again is the sense ofcommunity that was so rewarding
(35:24):
within the group and how thathas been such a loss after
leaving.
I don't know how you and I hearother people who are way
smarter than me and have waymore experience in working with
(35:45):
groups than I do, who say thesame thing that it's almost
impossible to keep that sense ofcommunity that many of us screw
up with without the guilt andshame that you need to keep
people coming on a regular basis, and I do not like that.
I sometimes that does not workfor me, but I am not the only
(36:08):
one who's observed that right,and so I think we can find
community.
It just might look different.
It might not have that sameall-encompassing sense of
identity that we once had.
But here's the thing there'salso benefits to that.
You get more privacy, sometimeswhen you want it, and that's
also a good thing.
So we absolutely will findpeople that we connect with, and
(36:33):
the threat that you'll be alost, wandering soul the rest of
your life is not true.
It might not be the same senseof community, but then also
that's okay, and also maybe it'smore realistic for life to flow
.
Maybe it's more realistic thatour friend groups change.
(36:55):
I know I think of friend groups.
I've been in where you knowlife happened and I'm still
living in the same place, butthat friend group has changed
dramatically because of allkinds of reasons.
And so maybe that's life, atleast life in the 21st century,
and we might not like it, but Ithink accepting that and then
(37:18):
figuring out where we want to gofrom that, where we want to go
from there, might be part of thepath of healing.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
And if I could just say this with a bit of caution,
I think it's easy for those ofus who leave a high demand
religion that the community isoften based on some sense of how
we dress.
(37:43):
I mean, we can tell most of uscan tell the difference in an
Amish or Mennonite group basedon the pleats in the covering or
the lack of pleats.
I think there is a temptationto look for community based on
another form of identity.
(38:05):
So maybe the temptation is youknow, you had to wear a covering
, you had to wear a covering,you had to wear a covering.
Finally you're not wearing acovering and so you might look
for people who now also don'twear a covering and you might
even discuss how much freedomyou have now that you're not
(38:27):
wearing a covering and you kindof build this new identity or
you built this new communitybased on not wearing a covering.
That identity is just as fickleas what you just left.
Not that it's not okay to havethose conversations, of course
you can.
But there are good, valuable,wonderful people in my life
(38:51):
whose friendships I deeply value, who are still wearing a
covering and they're just asfree as I am and they're just as
free as I am.
So I think we need to be reallycareful.
Back to our first.
Was it our first point where wetalked about our knee jerk
reaction?
Oh the second point, orreligious programming.
(39:19):
That religious programming Ithink is so deep and the way we
see the world, I think oftenshows up that way, and I think
when we look at community,perhaps that is the way we think
we're going to build communityand I think there's space for
that.
But I think we need to bereally super careful Because I
am telling you, if you trulybelieve that somehow you have a
(39:41):
closer relationship to Godbecause you are covered or
uncovered or whatever you are inbetween, that kind of frightens
me a little bit.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
You know, I think this is such an important point
for a lot of high demand groups,groups that take their
religious commitments super,super seriously, and their
identity, that conformity to thegroup norms I mean, which you
know.
The irony of this, of course,is that we prided ourselves on
being not conformed to the world, but conformity to the group
(40:16):
was paramount, like that was,that was core.
And when we are so, when we,when we, our default is to
assume that sameness is wherewe're going to find our people.
I think we are.
It's, it's one of those kneejerk reactions that limits us.
(40:36):
And Dr Becky Becky Kennedy, sheis the parenting guru.
She talks about how we do thisso often and like, just like,
without even meaning to like,when talking with children, like
we'll say, oh, look, we'rewearing the same color and we,
you know, we emphasize that.
And she talks about making aconscious effort to point out oh
(40:59):
, you like that flavor, I likethis flavor.
Isn't that cool?
We both like different flavors,yeah, and I think being aware
that difference was notcelebrated and that we might
have to make a conscious effortto shift, that, I think, can
open up a lot of possibilities,can open up a lot of
(41:22):
opportunities for friendshipsand relationships and
connections that we might nothave otherwise considered and
perhaps even real growth.
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
And, to be fair, there is something magical about
being with people who you don'thave to explain your past to,
who you don't have to explainyour knee-jerk reactions to Look
at us, right, or you don't haveto explain why.
In this moment, this Bibleverse came to my mind.
Look, as silly as it is, thisis the verse I'm thinking about.
(41:56):
We all laugh and we move on.
There is that, that, that thatis important.
It's so important, oh, yeah,yeah, and valuable, but that is
not the best indicator of truecommunity either, right.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
There are other.
There are other bases for abasis for community Correct.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
And I think it's easy for us who have left that high
demand type of group to assumethat when we find other people
where there is that sameness,that that's where we're going to
find true community Right.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
And I think it's the kind of thing where, if we give
ourselves an opportunity to findconnections with people who, on
the surface appear to be verydifferent, yeah, you can find
connections there.
I mean.
I just think of like some, youknow, some of my international
friends from college who youknow grew up in dramatically
(42:57):
different settings than I did.
You know, and, and and and.
Yet there were things we couldconnect on and we're still in
contact today and still connecton and it's incredibly enriching
.
So, yeah, it's becoming awareof that emphasis on sameness and
breaking out of it, I think, isreally really valuable, yeah,
(43:19):
and for whatever it's worth.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
In my space, don't be too hard on someone who still
wears a head covering.
Like I just don't have much.
I don't have any space forsomeone who mocks that.
At the same time, I don't havespace for someone who judges
someone for not wearing it.
Don't mock someone who, forwhatever reason, decides to
(43:42):
still wear a head covering.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
Right, and I just thought about something you know
, I know when I was making a lotof changes in my early 20s and
I remember coming to a pointwhere I realized how futile it
was to expect everybody to agreewith me, because I didn't know
how long I was going to agreewith me.
Right, and I think that's afactor here too.
(44:06):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Number six, the last item, andI think we've got a lot to say
about this one you feel so muchloss because religion met so
many core needs, like community,as we were just talking about.
Now it's time to understand howto start meeting them for
(44:26):
yourself.
This is a big one.
This is one of those shiftsthat may not.
This is one of those shiftsthat goes so much deeper than
behavior modification and itreally can change everything,
because it turns so much of whatwe were taught how we are to be
(44:47):
in the world and how we are torelate to people around us.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
It just turns it on its head Because, instead of
being self-sacrificing,endlessly self-sacrificing we
start paying attention to ourcore needs and being very
intentional about how we'regoing to get them met ourselves,
(45:16):
first of all, about and aboutwhat we want, and then being
brave enough to voice those outloud is scary, but I think it is
so important.
And back to knee jerk reactionsand deeply embedded, you know,
beliefs.
Many of us have been laughed atfor expressing it, and so being
(45:43):
brave enough to try again andto be honest about that is
difficult, but I reallyencourage all of us to try it
again and to be honest, becauseI think this is really kind of
where it all starts.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Right, and sometimes it's about being honest with
ourselves and making thoseshifts without telling others
Right, and then sometimes it isabout voicing them kind of
depending on what the situationmight be.
But I think it's.
It really changes everythingwhen we realize you know what
(46:24):
they can laugh.
And that doesn't make thesethings unimportant and we are
not asking too much to expectthat the people that we love,
people that love us who say tothey love us, that they take our
emotions, our dreams, ourinterests, our preferences, even
(46:44):
just take them seriously.
They may or may not comply, butat least take them seriously
and not to be automaticallydismissed or invalidated because
they're illogical or sinful orwhatever, because inconvenient.
And it's not because every ideawe have is so perfect, but it's
because we, just like everybodyelse, deserve to be treated
(47:08):
with dignity full stop.
Even if we have illogical orsinful or silly ideas, we still
deserve to be treated withdignity and those are not
reasons to be ridiculed ordismissed or fill in the blank.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
And you know, I think this might be again where the
feedback you get is more of anindicator of who they are and
less of an indicator about whoyou are.
The response you get is veryinformative to you about what
(47:44):
type of relationship you mighthave with this person, and I
think it's important for us topay attention, but don't give
them too much power.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
And I think another way that our needs can be
minimized or dismissed is ourfinancial needs.
There is no virtue in ourfinancial vulnerability.
You know, if we, as grownadults, do not have access to
(48:15):
our own funds, our own money,that's if someone else is
keeping them from us.
That's financial abuse and it'scontrolling behavior and it's
not okay.
And when you are in apartnership so-called
partnership but one person hasall the authority, that's not a
(48:35):
partnership.
Someone's being exploited or isat risk of being exploited and
it is not unreasonable to takesteps, whether that's setting up
your own bank account, whetherthat is setting up a side
business, setting up somethingon the side for your own.
I'm especially thinking ofsomeone who is maybe at home
(48:58):
raising children and not in thepaid workforce.
Be wary of language about sharedassets or partnership.
When only one person actuallygets to say what's going on.
That's not okay and there's novirtue in supporting that.
And you are not being selfishfor saying this doesn't feel
(49:22):
good and I want to changesomething about this.
You are an adult and you get todecide what works for you
financially and obviously in arelationship, you care about
each other's needs, right?
So there's like a mutual.
There should be a mutualdiscussion.
But when there's not a mutualdiscussion and when one person
is not open to a mutualdiscussion, you don't have a
(49:42):
partnership.
You got something else going on.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
Absolutely, absolutely.
So should we talk about thesepromises, about God's blessing
that you will at some pointreceive for all these years of
self-sacrifice?
Speaker 1 (49:58):
Well, can I go out on a limb here and just say it's
propaganda?
Speaker 2 (50:03):
Or it's a carrot.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
It's a carrot to trick us into self-sabotage.
I mean, we know how often womenin the church and in other
settings too, but particularlyin the church women's
contribution to the home, theirunpaid labor is romanticized and
there's all these sentimentalthings said about it.
Speaker 2 (50:26):
At least on Mother's Day.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
At least on Mother's Day.
But here's the thing If theseblessings, these long-term
blessings that come, are sowonderful, why aren't those with
power lining up for thoselong-term blessings?
Why aren't those with powerlining up for those long-term
blessings?
How come is it?
Nobody wants it, exceptnobody's lining up for them
without being told they have to.
Speaker 2 (50:46):
And if it's not good for the goose, it's not good for
the gander, and you know,something else I finally
realized was these people inleadership are often freely
handing out this advice, and theexpectation is that we just
kind of get in line.
But I started watching andobserving and I realized these
(51:10):
leaders also make a lot ofmistakes.
They don't pay the same pricefor a mistake, though, that some
of us others would, and I thinka lot of these rules and
expectations that are set up forus, that come with this promise
of God blessing us, come withthis sense of protection, this
(51:33):
sense of safety that's going tobe given to us and to some
degree that is true as long asyou stay in line, as long as you
don't make any mistakes and Ithink so so like if someone has
$5,000 in their bank account andthey make a $5 mistake, it's
not going to cost them the sameas if someone has $50 in their
(51:58):
account and makes a $5 mistake.
It looks different and I thinksocial equity is a little bit
the same way, and I worry whenwe are told that God is going to
bless or reward us for doingthis little specific thing and
your safety is only guaranteedas long as you don't make a
(52:21):
mistake, Because I think aloving, a truly loving parent, a
truly loving God has space forhumanity and for the mistakes
that are going to happen.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
Yeah, and if there's not room for that, then we've
got bigger problems.
I think that this is whereboundaries comes in, in terms of
, you know, takingresponsibility for the things
that we can control andrecognizing the things that we
can't.
We can't control others'emotions, others' actions.
We can't control any of that wecan't even control other
(52:59):
people's love.
Right, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (53:03):
Absolutely.
There is nothing you can do tomake someone else love you.
There is nothing you should doto make someone else love you
100%, 100%.
Speaker 1 (53:10):
Leaning into the things that you can influence,
though, I think is so often thevery thing we were told not to
touch.
And I think that for someonelike me who was raised with this
really strong teaching aboutbeing under authority and all
that and all the dangers ofstepping out from under that
(53:33):
authority, it's taken me toolong to learn not to give the
power to direct my life tosomeone who will never
experience the consequences ofthose decisions.
It's far, far better to takeresponsibility for messing
things up than to live alifetime of resentment for
(53:53):
taking somebody's crappy advicethat I have so much more regret
for the things I didn't say, forthe stands I didn't take, for
the needs I didn't stand up for,than for the ones that I did or
for the times I misspoke.
But the important thing is thatyou have to live with the
(54:14):
consequences of, say, notgetting an education.
You have to live with theconsequences of, say, not having
a career, a way of makingearning money, fill in the blank
.
You have to live with thoselong-term consequences.
Who to marry?
You have to live with thoselong-term consequences.
Don't let anyone else makethose decisions for you.
Speaker 2 (54:35):
And all the people said amen.
The people said amen Absolutely.
And, and you know, I thinkthere is a level where it is
really scary to start takingresponsibility for your own life
.
It is really scary.
It's something most of usweren't taught to do.
We don't have the skillsnecessarily to do that and know
(54:56):
that in the process you're goingto make mistakes, you're going
to get it wrong and it's okay.
It is okay.
Trust your process, trust yourgut, Trust your intuition.
Embrace the mistakes.
I think mistakes typically justtend to be a reminder to pivot
(55:18):
to change, reminder to pivot tochange.
Nothing wrong with that.
It doesn't devalue you.
It doesn't mean you're dumb.
No matter what happens in theprocess, you are still worthy of
dignity, you are still worthyof respect and long term, I
think you're going to be gladyou made those choices.
Speaker 1 (55:37):
Mic drop.
I think that's a great place towrap up this conversation.
Thank you all so much forhanging out with us this
afternoon.
Wish you all the best and gomake some mistakes.
We'll be thinking of you, youcan do it and we'll be cheering
(55:58):
you on, that's for sure.
Take care and we'll see yousoon.
Speaker 2 (56:13):
Thank you for spending time with us today.
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond what?
Speaker 1 (56:23):
are your thoughts about college and recovery from
high demand religion.
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences and we
want to talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atuncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom.
That's uncoveredlifebeyondatgmailcom.
That'suncoveredlifebeyondatgmailcom.
Speaker 2 (56:42):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode Until
next time stay brave, stay bold,stay awkward.
This is Rebecca and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path Along the
way, we've uncovered a fewinsights we want to share with
fellow travelers.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up, we are here to cheeryou on and assure you that the
best is yet to come.
Welcome to Uncovered LifeBeyond.
Hello everyone, Welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.
(01:08):
This is Naomi.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
And this is Rebecca.
So here we are, our second weekin Look at us showing up.
I feel like we have tocelebrate this every chance we
get.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
I know, I know as sad as that is.
Well, you know, this week Icame across a post on Instagram
that caught my eye and I sent itto you and said, hey, we should
talk about this.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
And I said, yes, we should.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
So it's an Instagram post titled Six Things I Wish I
Knew when I Left the Church 19Years Ago, and it's by Kara and
Rachel, religious harm recoverycoaches.
I'm not really familiar withthis account and with Kara and
Rachel, but I follow them onFacebook, or at least their
stuff is coming up in my feed onFacebook, or at least their
(02:06):
stuff is coming up in my feed,and their handle on IG is at
happyholeway and we'll link allthis up in the show notes.
But yeah, these six thingsreally resonated with us and we
thought maybe they wouldresonate with some of our
listeners too.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
And I think it's kind of important maybe to point out
that while the title says whenI left the church, I think
things, these ideas, theseconcepts would be helpful even
(02:51):
if a person didn't leave church.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Or if you're leaving the Amish Mennonite community,
or if you're leaving Some kindof distinctive community, or it
could even be like a place ofwork or something, some kind of
identity that has been reallycentral in your life and you're
kind of reconfiguring all that.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Right, because probably like if I were titling
this, I would say six things Iwish I knew when I started
deconstructing 19 years ago.
There you go, there you go.
I think.
Anytime we start changing orchallenging old narratives and
in some way recreating ourselves, I think these points are very
(03:38):
important to remember.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yeah, absolutely so.
The first one is your anger isgoing to heal you.
You've been taught to be a goodlittle girl and push it down
for so long.
It's okay to be angry for aslong as you need.
It won't always feel like thisWow, they just jumped right in,
(04:00):
didn't they?
Kind of did jumped right in,didn't they Kind of did you know
?
I think anger is oftendemonized in a lot of religious
spaces, especially when it'sseen as it's necessarily going
to hurt someone.
It's seen as you have to eithertamp it down and repress it and
(04:24):
do all that, or you're going tobe.
If you feel your anger, you'renecessarily going to be
destructive, and there's noprocessing it.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
There's no processing it.
But also I find it sofascinating that in religious
communities often anger is theone emotion men are allowed to
have.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
But it's the emotion that women are most demonized
for.
In fact, if a woman is harmedand gets angry, that anger
invalidates the harm sheexperienced.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
And I think the truth is like these emotions will
tell you so much about yourself.
Emotions like anger andresentment inform me of what's
going on and I think sometimesit can be so uncomfortable and
(05:23):
unpleasant to sit in thoseemotions, but I think it is
probably one of the best giftswe can give to ourselves to sit
with it.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Right, because sitting with it doesn't
necessarily mean lashing out, itdoesn't necessarily mean doing
anything destructive, but itmeans to radically accept.
Yeah, I am angry, and maybe thatdoes mean screaming out in the
woods or somewhere or into apillow or whatever that might be
, but just acknowledging it andfeeling that feeling in our body
(05:58):
and not trying to run away fromit.
It's a skill that I think few ofus were raised with, and yet
not only for anger, but also,yeah, for other things like
resentment, grief, sadness, youknow, just a whole host of
things.
And I think so often we goright to either spiritual
(06:20):
bypassing, where we want to do ashortcut to everything will
work out, or you know God won'tgive you anything more than you
can bear, or whatever cliche isapplied, or that I mean we're
just, we're scared of theseemotions because we're afraid if
we acknowledge them, thenthey're going to, they're going
(06:41):
to be with us forever and we'regoing to be miserable forever.
And the reality is that when weprocess those emotions so often
like they actually don't hangaround that long, when you sit
with them and acknowledge themand think about what they're
signaling, and I think theseemotions are truth tellers and
(07:04):
it's important that we payattention.
Right, and I think one of thereasons this can happen or like
we can have the freedom to dothis when we leave a say, a high
demand, religious community orsomething like that is it might
be the first time when we aren'tneeding to defend ourselves
(07:24):
from blame or shame.
It might be the first time thatwe're free to process and to
just say, yeah, I'm angry, I'mmad, I'm bitter, yeah, and say
that with the full confidencethat you're still a person who's
worthy of dignity and respect,being treated with dignity and
respect.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Absolutely.
That's a new concept for a lotof us it's a new concept and
it's so very important.
So number two is your religiousprogramming doesn't fully go
away just because you left thechurch.
There will still be things thatbring those old beliefs back up
to the surface.
And don't panic, this istotally normal.
(08:06):
There are ways to help withthis.
And boy howdy, isn't this true?
It's so interesting to me howthings you haven't thought about
songs, you haven't thoughtabout, verses you haven't
thought about, like boom, all ofa sudden it pops up and you can
(08:27):
quote a whole chapter.
Yes, but then also, I think,just ideologies.
I'm watching one of my kidsdate without any of the purity
culture expectations.
The child has no concept ofpurity culture and it's
fascinating how those myexpectations or not expectations
(08:53):
, but my knee-jerk belief, myknee-jerk belief of what dating
should look like, which I knowis false but yet watching this
child move through therelationship without a concept
of that is just so interesting.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
And Is it like you become aware of default settings
that you didn't even realizewere still there?
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Yes, yes, and it's like, even though you know these
default settings are wrong andnot at all what you even believe
, they're still there.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
And I think sometimes we're surprised by them.
But I also see this sometimesin, maybe, conversations that
folks who are in more mainstreamcontexts Maybe they're watching
a documentary or reading a bookabout someone who has left a
high demand religious communityor something like that and
(09:52):
sometimes there seems to be thisassumption that when they leave
, a switch is flipped and theyare now automatically going to
see everything like a whitemiddleclass American.
And the reality is those earlyexperiences have such a strong
influence on how we think, howwe process things, how we
(10:15):
approach life, how we approachrelationships, and we often
don't become aware of thosedefault settings until something
comes along, just like what youwere describing, and brings it
to our attention and it'sunrealistic to expect that
(10:35):
somehow those past experiencesaren't going to affect us.
But then the good news is thatour neural pathways are
changeable plastic they are.
You know, we aren't stuck beingthat same person.
We can.
We can change these things.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Which kind of takes us to our next point.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
You'll spend many years trying to fix yourself
because your religiousprogramming so deeply convinced
you that you are broken, there'snothing to fix.
The moment you realize thatyour job is to care for, not
cure yourself, everything willshift within you.
Whoa, yeah, this is the one.
(11:16):
This is the one that really hitme.
Yeah, because this is one ofthose pathways, one of those
concepts, those default settingsthat has stuck with me for a
long time.
I mean, I'm such a sucker Ihave been such a sucker for
self-help books and I've learnedto moderate but more
(11:38):
importantly is realizing like,oh, I'm not defective.
When there is an issue, when Ifeel anger, for example, or
resentment or something likethat, it's not like, oh, that
anger or that resentment needsto be cured and needs to be
(11:58):
ejected, but that it's trying totell me something and I need to
care for myself.
And it's probably telling me,it's probably bringing to my
attention something that has notbeen cared for, that needs
attention.
How's this manifested itself inyour life?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Oh, this has been huge for me, because I deeply
bought into the logic that if Ido the right thing, if I can
just magically do the rightthing, that that will free God
to work in other people's lives.
And so when relationships weredifficult, I automatically
(12:35):
assumed that I needed to fixmyself.
And so Rebecca would scurry offto the therapist and truly
attempt to fix whatever wasbroken inside herself and for
whatever it's worth.
I think we should pay attentionto who typically goes to the
(12:57):
therapist first.
I truly think we need to payattention to this, because I
think a lot of weight is put onwomen to hold relationships
together, To absorb to absorball the the impact, absorb all
(13:18):
the tension, absorb all that andcompensate for it, and
compensate for it.
Yeah, and I finally actually hada therapist look at me and
almost chuckle and say oh honey,there is no way you can fix
yourself properly.
You're the only one who wantsthis fixed.
(13:40):
And it was in that moment thatI realized this right here was
in that moment that I realizedthis, right here, and I just
think it's so very importantthat we recognize this and start
viewing ourselves with care andcompassion and quit holding
responsibility for relationshipdynamics that are not ours to
(14:05):
hold.
And when we find ourselves inrelationships where we're the
only one who wants things tochange, I think that is our
first sign that maybe we have aproblem.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Yeah, maybe we're going in different directions.
Yeah, yeah, that's a tough,that is a tough reality to
accept.
Well, and I think one of thethings that we had chatted about
too was that deconstruction,deconstructing, goes so much
deeper than behaviormodification.
And I think part of that sense,of that sense that we have to
(14:41):
fix this problem, we have tocure ourselves, is about
behavior modification.
Yeah, and when we make thisshift, it changes how we see the
problem or what we see as theproblem right, so that instead
of this view where I'm theproblem, clearly I'm not doing
something right, either I'vesinned in my life or I'm not
(15:04):
following the formula correctlyand immediately with that
problem comes guilt and shamefor being human, and it and it
shuts us down, it keeps us quietas long as we possibly can,
because so we don't have toreveal our guilt and shame to
everyone else.
But this shift helps us see, ohwait, no, there's a problem
(15:27):
here and I don't need to feelguilt and shame about it.
I can work on it, I can getcurious about it, I can pay
attention to it and try tofigure out what it's trying to
tell me, and I can do thatwithout feeling that sense of
guilt and shame.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Absolutely, and I think that deconstruction and
use whatever word you want, butI think the process of
deconstruction scares peoplewith power and in leadership.
When I see someone on socialmedia railing about the evils of
deconstruction, I just think,oh, that's someone who's
(16:07):
grasping for power.
Oh, that's someone who'sgrasping for power.
Guilt and shame is the currencythe church holds.
That's the currency that theyhold to keep people in line.
And deconstruction changesthings at a deeper level and it
changes the way you think, itchanges the way you process and
(16:28):
I just think it's reallyimportant that we let go of that
guilt and shame.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Yeah, when we have that sense of guilt and shame,
it automatically brings ourfocus back on what did I do
wrong, right, and when we let goof that, then we can get other
parts of the problem.
We can look beyond that andthat doesn't serve the folks who
want to keep us.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
But then you can start calling out the pollution
that's going on in theenvironment.
Ooh, that's a problem?
Yeah, it is, and I think it'sso basic, even down to like an
easy one to point at.
Is sexuality?
It's a part of being human, butsomehow the church has taken
(17:18):
this and made the range of whatis acceptable sexual activity so
incredibly narrow that it setspeople up to fail, but then they
double down in the guilt andthen it becomes this vicious
cycle of people being controlledagain by their guilt.
(17:39):
But the problem, the realproblem, still exists.
Whether it is objectifyingwomen, whether it is, you know,
whatever it is, it isobjectifying women, whether it
is you know whatever whatever itis, those objectifying women,
whether it's done through pornor through purity culture right.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Either way, women are objectified.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Right, but rarely do we talk, rarely do religious
leaders talk about that issue.
Rather, they want to talk aboutthe evils of porn or the jazz
bells in the street, instead ofgetting real about are we
valuable or not?
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Right, and I think in those situations, usually
talking about abuse or bringingit up, pointing it out, is a
much larger transgression thanthe abuse itself, and absolutely
.
And the problem and I thinkthat's because how those systems
see that abuse, what they seeas the problem of the abuse, is
(18:48):
not that someone's hurt, notthat someone's harmed, not that
someone's been taken advantageof, but it's that.
Oh well, it's because somethingoutside the acceptable range
has taken place.
That's the offense, and so thatpower differential between the
person who was harmed and thepredator is not acknowledged and
that makes it very easy forthat person with less power, the
person who was harmed, tobecome the scapegoat.
(19:11):
And I don't need to.
Anyone who's paying attentionto the news knows that no
institution, religious orsecular, is immune from this
kind of thing happening.
The thing is that in a lot ofreligious institutions this
dynamic is reinforced in thename of God and victims are
(19:36):
further harmed in the name ofGod, and there's no effort to
stop this harm.
That's.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Right, it's damning, it's damning and I worry that if
the church doesn't get a handleon that, and fast, they're
going to continue to shrink,they're going to continue to get
smaller be actively protectingpredators.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
You know, it's not just.
I mean, for a long time it'sbeen we don't know, we don't
know.
And now it turns out more andmore do know, they knew and
(20:20):
they've been looking out not forthe, not for the vulnerable.
They've been looking out forthe predators, yep and and it's
they're.
They're losing, losingcredibility fast and the numbers
show it.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Which brings me to one of my theories.
I think that it's thescapegoats that tend to leave
first.
Often, the scapegoat iscriticized.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
critiqued Because they're the truth teller.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Yeah, they're the truth teller.
You know, I think the scapegoatlives in a world, you know,
some people live in a worldwhere they see the world as it
could be, so they romanticize.
You know, I think the scapegoatlives in a world, you know,
some people live in a worldwhere they see the world as it
could be, so they romanticize,you know, whatever.
And then some people live in aworld where they see the world
as it is.
But I think the scapegoat maybelives in both.
They can see the world as it is, but they can also see it as it
(21:07):
could be, as it should be, asit's been promised, yeah.
But they can also see it as itcould be, as it should be, as
it's been promised, yeah.
And I think oftentimes thescapegoat kind of believes at
first that they are the problem,and so they attempt to fix
things and in that process theybecome, they immerse themselves
(21:28):
in self-help, in therapy,whatever it is, whatever it is,
they become healthier.
And then it's like, oh, andsuddenly they realize that maybe
they aren't the problem.
But then guess what?
You're demonized for leaving,and there's a whole new
narrative, because now you'veleft.
And I'm always fascinated athow toxic or dysfunctional
(21:54):
families, dysfunctionalcommunities have to have their
scapegoats.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Right, and I think when you often scratch beneath
the surface, you find like yes,they were the truth tellers, so
they have to be demonized, sopeople won't treat them with
dignity and respect, so theywon't be be heard.
But then also, by leaving Right, they've.
They've stopped trying toconform, they've stopped trying
to meet expectations, and thatis also taken to offense.
(22:22):
But here's the other thing,though, that I think is really
important is to recognize howalmost reflexive this is, like
you would think everybody'sfollowing the same playbook
because it's so predictable, andI don't think it's necessarily
being done consciously all thetime.
I would agree Right.
(22:43):
And so I think sometimes wedon't give enough credence to
the way that things can kind ofhappen without any kind of
official machinations.
What I'm saying is like thesethings don't have to be
explicitly stated for thesedynamics to be present.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Well, and if you think about it, our very
theology is built on a scapegoat.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
That's right, which I think is fascinating and
something that needs its own,probably five episodes, but the
very way we think about ourtheology is based on
scapegoating.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Yeah, you're right, you're right.
So number four, based onscapegoating yeah, you're right,
you're right.
So number four is being hard onyourself won't change the past.
The way forward is throughcuriosity and compassion.
And I think this ties in withwhat we were saying a minute ago
about how we don'tautomatically change everything
(23:47):
when we make these shifts inlife, because when we do see the
world in a new way, when wehave a major identity shift, it
can be easy to look back andkind of call ourselves out for
all the ways we did things wrongin the past, and I think that's
(24:08):
just another avenue of shameand guilt and I just don't think
that's going to do anybody anygood.
And I think that's just anotheravenue of shame and guilt and I
just don't think that's goingto do anybody any good.
And I think recognizing we'rehuman, accepting radically
accepting I'm a human, livinglife without making mistakes was
never an option.
Mistakes are how I learn aboutmyself in the world.
That's how we can approachthese things with curiosity and
(24:30):
compassion, and it's just somuch more freeing than when we
see it with judgment andcriticism you know, learning to
live with curiosity, I justthink, has been one of the best
gifts I've given myself.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
And when you think about it, this focusing on
getting things right and notmaking a mistake requires a
focus on a formula, and thatformula invariably keeps us
trapped and spinning and weblame ourselves for getting it
wrong, or we blame our kids,because we did the right things
but now they're not doing theright things.
And I think these formulas areso dang attractive.
(25:07):
I mean, that's Dr Dobson,that's Bill Gothard, that is all
these parenting theories, these, you know, the self-help gurus,
yes, yes.
And it keeps us in thatconstant hamster wheel when the
truth of it, is very few of uswhen we think about people and
(25:30):
relationships we truly admireand want to be with.
Rarely is it the people who areperfect we're not necessarily
attracted to perfection Peoplewho show up with dignity but
authenticity.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Transparency.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Yeah, and even in parenting it's a joke to think
we're going to get it right.
So if we show up insisting thatwe've got it right and we show
up trying to be perfect, we loseour ability to apologize when
we get it wrong.
And getting it wrong and beingable to be like oh shoot, I am
so sorry.
(26:09):
I wish I would have done thatdifferently.
How did that make you feel?
I mean, that is whererelationships happen.
But if we convince ourselves.
yeah, if we convince ourselveswe're getting it right and we've
got the perfect formula, thenwe don't have to show up and
bother with apologizing and I'mnot so sure that leaders don't
(26:32):
usually apologize.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Or if they do it, it's very strategic yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Yeah, I agree, and I think things really shifted for
me when I stopped feeling thatit was my job to keep my kids
from doing immature, dumb things.
I mean, let's just say it, youknow, because I think it's so
(26:58):
easy for us as parents to putpressure on ourselves that you
know our children's actions area reflection on us and so
therefore, if they, if I get acall from school, there's a
problem with my parenting, andfor me it has been so freeing
and it has made space for thoserelationships, for that
connection to build.
When I'm not surprised thatimmature things are happening at
(27:24):
school and we learn from it andwe grow, but also when my
children are not expecting shameand blame, we can have an open
conversation about it and we cantalk about what would be a
better way to handle thesituation next time, and so
there's open for learning.
They're not in that flight,flight, flight, flight I can't
(27:47):
talk fight or flight mode wherethey are trying to defend
themselves and they can't hearanything.
I'm trying to teach them.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
But then it also gives space for them to show up
and take responsibility.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Which that is so important.
I think there's a lot of adultsthat don't know how to show up
and take responsibility fortheir act.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Well, if making a mistake, if messing up,
automatically means that I'mlosing dignity and respect in
the eyes of the people around me, of course we can't admit.
You know, it's just the humanego is not going to allow us to
admit our failures and takeresponsibility and do something
(28:33):
different.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
And it's phenomenal what can happen when we accept
our humanity, accept thehumanity of people around us and
, in that, accept that mistakesare part of life and that we are
all still worthy of dignity andrespect, even when we make a
(29:05):
mistake at different points, bydifferent people, and I would
feel anger, maybe at them, buteven more strongly I would
question my value or what therole I played in it and and what
you did wrong.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
like you're saying like what you did wrong, what
you did, yeah, or like why wouldthey?
Speaker 2 (29:28):
do that Like what?
Why?
Why would a person behave that?
Speaker 1 (29:32):
way, and with an assumption that your behavior is
what triggered it.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Yeah, and this kind of brings us back to the thing
of being hard on yourself won'tchange the past and opening
yourself up for curiosity andcompassion.
What I finally realized isyourself up for curiosity and
compassion.
What I finally realized is soif you get a snake bite, we're
not going to go find the snakeand ask the snake, why did you
bite me?
Why would you do that?
(29:59):
No, we focus on healing.
We focus on ridding our body ofthe poison.
I don't know what do you dowhen you get bit by a snake.
I don't know, it hasn'thappened to me, but anyway, if I
get bit by a snake, I know I'mnot going to go talk to the
snake.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Absolutely Definitely not that.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
And so I think we spend a lot of time imagining a
sort of apology orreconciliation or accountability
.
That probably is not going tohappen and I think the sooner we
can let go of that.
And for me, in my head, this isdifferent from forgiveness.
(30:35):
For me, and maybe it's the samething, but in my head it feels
different.
For me it was more about acuriosity of why are you blaming
yourself in the first place?
What if it has no reflection ofyou?
What if it was about them?
And the phrase I tell myself iswhat if it's not about you?
(30:58):
What if it's not about you?
And it allowed me to put alittle bit of space between the
hurt and the harm that was doneand even maybe offer a little
bit of the same curiosity andcompassion to the snake Not that
I necessarily want arelationship with it, but
(31:19):
acknowledging they have theirown stuff.
And sometimes things that happenhas so little to do about me.
It's their stuff and I justhappen to be at the wrong place
at the wrong time.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Right, right, yeah, I think that is so important
because whether it was actuallythere or it's just the
impression that I got, that Ipicked up, but it seems like so
much of the material onrelationships that I was raised
with put the onus on me for it,and I remember even going into
(31:58):
adulthood and feeling, reallyfeeling a sense of failure if
relationships kind of went indifferent directions.
You know, and I remembersomebody telling me you're
actually at a stage in lifewhere it's normal to kind of go
in different directions frompeople that you've known before.
Like that's not really, youdon't have to keep being best
(32:18):
friends with everybody you know,right, right, and I really
appreciate that normalizing that, and because I think we can put
a lot of unnecessary pressureon ourselves to feel like we
have to make sure everybodylikes us and we don't.
They don't have to like us.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
And you know what?
Yeah, that is one of the mostfreeing discoveries of my life.
I don't have to be everyone'scup of tea, that's fine, but no
one has to love me.
No one has to expect no one hasto love me, no one has to
respect me, no one has to evenbe nice to me.
But guess what?
I don't have to show up forless than that either.
Right, and it's like so freeing, like no one.
(32:59):
I don't have to expect someoneto value me that's fine if you
don't but neither do I have toshow up and convince you to do
that for me.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Right, right, they don't have to.
Doesn't change the fact thatyou are worthy of respect and
dignity and validation, and alsoyou don't have to stick around
for it.
Nope, absolutely.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
I love that so much so, number five, you'll make a
meaningful life for yourselfAgain, you'll find your people
and it will be even better thanyou expected.
Just be patient.
It takes time to rebuild.
Oh, this one's tough, thisone's scary, but I have found it
to be so true.
You know, when we're followingformulas, we kind of, I think,
(33:46):
lose pieces of ourselves, and Iknow I certainly didn't know who
I was in that mix, and I'm suremost people around me didn't
know who I was, because we'reall kind of trying to be the
same person.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Yeah, play a role, play that expected role, not
stand out too much.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
And, weirdly enough, the more you become honest about
who you are and what you wantin life, I think the more people
kind of get who you are andit's going to offend some people
they'll walk away.
But I've found that therelationships I do have, and the
relationships that developed oreven lasted, become much more
(34:28):
authentic, much more real, andit's not based on that perceived
expectation or the perceivednarrative that we were told to
be, and I think within that youdevelop a confidence that was
missing before.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Certainly not encouraged.
Right right, well.
And you can't have a lot ofconfidence when you're
constantly self-doubting, whenyou're constantly questioning
yourself.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
And isn't that the point?
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Yeah, exactly.
You know, in listening toconversations about
deconstruction from any numberof religious groups or even more
secular high-demand groups,something that is mentioned
again and again is the sense ofcommunity that was so rewarding
(35:24):
within the group and how thathas been such a loss after
leaving.
I don't know how you and I hearother people who are way
smarter than me and have waymore experience in working with
(35:45):
groups than I do, who say thesame thing that it's almost
impossible to keep that sense ofcommunity that many of us screw
up with without the guilt andshame that you need to keep
people coming on a regular basis, and I do not like that.
I sometimes that does not workfor me, but I am not the only
(36:08):
one who's observed that right,and so I think we can find
community.
It just might look different.
It might not have that sameall-encompassing sense of
identity that we once had.
But here's the thing there'salso benefits to that.
You get more privacy, sometimeswhen you want it, and that's
also a good thing.
So we absolutely will findpeople that we connect with, and
(36:33):
the threat that you'll be alost, wandering soul the rest of
your life is not true.
It might not be the same senseof community, but then also
that's okay, and also maybe it'smore realistic for life to flow
.
Maybe it's more realistic thatour friend groups change.
(36:55):
I know I think of friend groups.
I've been in where you knowlife happened and I'm still
living in the same place, butthat friend group has changed
dramatically because of allkinds of reasons.
And so maybe that's life, atleast life in the 21st century,
and we might not like it, but Ithink accepting that and then
(37:18):
figuring out where we want to gofrom that, where we want to go
from there, might be part of thepath of healing.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
And if I could just say this with a bit of caution,
I think it's easy for those ofus who leave a high demand
religion that the community isoften based on some sense of how
we dress.
(37:43):
I mean, we can tell most of uscan tell the difference in an
Amish or Mennonite group basedon the pleats in the covering or
the lack of pleats.
I think there is a temptationto look for community based on
another form of identity.
(38:05):
So maybe the temptation is youknow, you had to wear a covering
, you had to wear a covering,you had to wear a covering.
Finally you're not wearing acovering and so you might look
for people who now also don'twear a covering and you might
even discuss how much freedomyou have now that you're not
(38:27):
wearing a covering and you kindof build this new identity or
you built this new communitybased on not wearing a covering.
That identity is just as fickleas what you just left.
Not that it's not okay to havethose conversations, of course
you can.
But there are good, valuable,wonderful people in my life
(38:51):
whose friendships I deeply value, who are still wearing a
covering and they're just asfree as I am and they're just as
free as I am.
So I think we need to be reallycareful.
Back to our first.
Was it our first point where wetalked about our knee jerk
reaction?
Oh the second point, orreligious programming.
(39:19):
That religious programming Ithink is so deep and the way we
see the world, I think oftenshows up that way, and I think
when we look at community,perhaps that is the way we think
we're going to build communityand I think there's space for
that.
But I think we need to bereally super careful Because I
am telling you, if you trulybelieve that somehow you have a
(39:41):
closer relationship to Godbecause you are covered or
uncovered or whatever you are inbetween, that kind of frightens
me a little bit.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
You know, I think this is such an important point
for a lot of high demand groups,groups that take their
religious commitments super,super seriously, and their
identity, that conformity to thegroup norms I mean, which you
know.
The irony of this, of course,is that we prided ourselves on
being not conformed to the world, but conformity to the group
(40:16):
was paramount, like that was,that was core.
And when we are so, when we,when we, our default is to
assume that sameness is wherewe're going to find our people.
I think we are.
It's, it's one of those kneejerk reactions that limits us.
(40:36):
And Dr Becky Becky Kennedy, sheis the parenting guru.
She talks about how we do thisso often and like, just like,
without even meaning to like,when talking with children, like
we'll say, oh, look, we'rewearing the same color and we,
you know, we emphasize that.
And she talks about making aconscious effort to point out oh
(40:59):
, you like that flavor, I likethis flavor.
Isn't that cool?
We both like different flavors,yeah, and I think being aware
that difference was notcelebrated and that we might
have to make a conscious effortto shift, that, I think, can
open up a lot of possibilities,can open up a lot of
(41:22):
opportunities for friendshipsand relationships and
connections that we might nothave otherwise considered and
perhaps even real growth.
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
And, to be fair, there is something magical about
being with people who you don'thave to explain your past to,
who you don't have to explainyour knee-jerk reactions to Look
at us, right, or you don't haveto explain why.
In this moment, this Bibleverse came to my mind.
Look, as silly as it is, thisis the verse I'm thinking about.
(41:56):
We all laugh and we move on.
There is that, that, that thatis important.
It's so important, oh, yeah,yeah, and valuable, but that is
not the best indicator of truecommunity either, right.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
There are other.
There are other bases for abasis for community Correct.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
And I think it's easy for us who have left that high
demand type of group to assumethat when we find other people
where there is that sameness,that that's where we're going to
find true community Right.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
And I think it's the kind of thing where, if we give
ourselves an opportunity to findconnections with people who, on
the surface appear to be verydifferent, yeah, you can find
connections there.
I mean.
I just think of like some, youknow, some of my international
friends from college who youknow grew up in dramatically
(42:57):
different settings than I did.
You know, and, and and and.
Yet there were things we couldconnect on and we're still in
contact today and still connecton and it's incredibly enriching
.
So, yeah, it's becoming awareof that emphasis on sameness and
breaking out of it, I think, isreally really valuable, yeah,
(43:19):
and for whatever it's worth.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
In my space, don't be too hard on someone who still
wears a head covering.
Like I just don't have much.
I don't have any space forsomeone who mocks that.
At the same time, I don't havespace for someone who judges
someone for not wearing it.
Don't mock someone who, forwhatever reason, decides to
(43:42):
still wear a head covering.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
Right, and I just thought about something you know
, I know when I was making a lotof changes in my early 20s and
I remember coming to a pointwhere I realized how futile it
was to expect everybody to agreewith me, because I didn't know
how long I was going to agreewith me.
Right, and I think that's afactor here too.
(44:06):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Number six, the last item, andI think we've got a lot to say
about this one you feel so muchloss because religion met so
many core needs, like community,as we were just talking about.
Now it's time to understand howto start meeting them for
(44:26):
yourself.
This is a big one.
This is one of those shiftsthat may not.
This is one of those shiftsthat goes so much deeper than
behavior modification and itreally can change everything,
because it turns so much of whatwe were taught how we are to be
(44:47):
in the world and how we are torelate to people around us.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
It just turns it on its head Because, instead of
being self-sacrificing,endlessly self-sacrificing we
start paying attention to ourcore needs and being very
intentional about how we'regoing to get them met ourselves,
(45:16):
first of all, about and aboutwhat we want, and then being
brave enough to voice those outloud is scary, but I think it is
so important.
And back to knee jerk reactionsand deeply embedded, you know,
beliefs.
Many of us have been laughed atfor expressing it, and so being
(45:43):
brave enough to try again andto be honest about that is
difficult, but I reallyencourage all of us to try it
again and to be honest, becauseI think this is really kind of
where it all starts.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Right, and sometimes it's about being honest with
ourselves and making thoseshifts without telling others
Right, and then sometimes it isabout voicing them kind of
depending on what the situationmight be.
But I think it's.
It really changes everythingwhen we realize you know what
(46:24):
they can laugh.
And that doesn't make thesethings unimportant and we are
not asking too much to expectthat the people that we love,
people that love us who say tothey love us, that they take our
emotions, our dreams, ourinterests, our preferences, even
(46:44):
just take them seriously.
They may or may not comply, butat least take them seriously
and not to be automaticallydismissed or invalidated because
they're illogical or sinful orwhatever, because inconvenient.
And it's not because every ideawe have is so perfect, but it's
because we, just like everybodyelse, deserve to be treated
(47:08):
with dignity full stop.
Even if we have illogical orsinful or silly ideas, we still
deserve to be treated withdignity and those are not
reasons to be ridiculed ordismissed or fill in the blank.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
And you know, I think this might be again where the
feedback you get is more of anindicator of who they are and
less of an indicator about whoyou are.
The response you get is veryinformative to you about what
(47:44):
type of relationship you mighthave with this person, and I
think it's important for us topay attention, but don't give
them too much power.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
And I think another way that our needs can be
minimized or dismissed is ourfinancial needs.
There is no virtue in ourfinancial vulnerability.
You know, if we, as grownadults, do not have access to
(48:15):
our own funds, our own money,that's if someone else is
keeping them from us.
That's financial abuse and it'scontrolling behavior and it's
not okay.
And when you are in apartnership so-called
partnership but one person hasall the authority, that's not a
(48:35):
partnership.
Someone's being exploited or isat risk of being exploited and
it is not unreasonable to takesteps, whether that's setting up
your own bank account, whetherthat is setting up a side
business, setting up somethingon the side for your own.
I'm especially thinking ofsomeone who is maybe at home
(48:58):
raising children and not in thepaid workforce.
Be wary of language about sharedassets or partnership.
When only one person actuallygets to say what's going on.
That's not okay and there's novirtue in supporting that.
And you are not being selfishfor saying this doesn't feel
(49:22):
good and I want to changesomething about this.
You are an adult and you get todecide what works for you
financially and obviously in arelationship, you care about
each other's needs, right?
So there's like a mutual.
There should be a mutualdiscussion.
But when there's not a mutualdiscussion and when one person
is not open to a mutualdiscussion, you don't have a
(49:42):
partnership.
You got something else going on.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
Absolutely, absolutely.
So should we talk about thesepromises, about God's blessing
that you will at some pointreceive for all these years of
self-sacrifice?
Speaker 1 (49:58):
Well, can I go out on a limb here and just say it's
propaganda?
Speaker 2 (50:03):
Or it's a carrot.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
It's a carrot to trick us into self-sabotage.
I mean, we know how often womenin the church and in other
settings too, but particularlyin the church women's
contribution to the home, theirunpaid labor is romanticized and
there's all these sentimentalthings said about it.
Speaker 2 (50:26):
At least on Mother's Day.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
At least on Mother's Day.
But here's the thing If theseblessings, these long-term
blessings that come, are sowonderful, why aren't those with
power lining up for thoselong-term blessings?
Why aren't those with powerlining up for those long-term
blessings?
How come is it?
Nobody wants it, exceptnobody's lining up for them
without being told they have to.
Speaker 2 (50:46):
And if it's not good for the goose, it's not good for
the gander, and you know,something else I finally
realized was these people inleadership are often freely
handing out this advice, and theexpectation is that we just
kind of get in line.
But I started watching andobserving and I realized these
(51:10):
leaders also make a lot ofmistakes.
They don't pay the same pricefor a mistake, though, that some
of us others would, and I thinka lot of these rules and
expectations that are set up forus, that come with this promise
of God blessing us, come withthis sense of protection, this
(51:33):
sense of safety that's going tobe given to us and to some
degree that is true as long asyou stay in line, as long as you
don't make any mistakes and Ithink so so like if someone has
$5,000 in their bank account andthey make a $5 mistake, it's
not going to cost them the sameas if someone has $50 in their
(51:58):
account and makes a $5 mistake.
It looks different and I thinksocial equity is a little bit
the same way, and I worry whenwe are told that God is going to
bless or reward us for doingthis little specific thing and
your safety is only guaranteedas long as you don't make a
(52:21):
mistake, Because I think aloving, a truly loving parent, a
truly loving God has space forhumanity and for the mistakes
that are going to happen.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
Yeah, and if there's not room for that, then we've
got bigger problems.
I think that this is whereboundaries comes in, in terms of
, you know, takingresponsibility for the things
that we can control andrecognizing the things that we
can't.
We can't control others'emotions, others' actions.
We can't control any of that wecan't even control other
(52:59):
people's love.
Right, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (53:03):
Absolutely.
There is nothing you can do tomake someone else love you.
There is nothing you should doto make someone else love you
100%, 100%.
Speaker 1 (53:10):
Leaning into the things that you can influence,
though, I think is so often thevery thing we were told not to
touch.
And I think that for someonelike me who was raised with this
really strong teaching aboutbeing under authority and all
that and all the dangers ofstepping out from under that
(53:33):
authority, it's taken me toolong to learn not to give the
power to direct my life tosomeone who will never
experience the consequences ofthose decisions.
It's far, far better to takeresponsibility for messing
things up than to live alifetime of resentment for
(53:53):
taking somebody's crappy advicethat I have so much more regret
for the things I didn't say, forthe stands I didn't take, for
the needs I didn't stand up for,than for the ones that I did or
for the times I misspoke.
But the important thing is thatyou have to live with the
(54:14):
consequences of, say, notgetting an education.
You have to live with theconsequences of, say, not having
a career, a way of makingearning money, fill in the blank
.
You have to live with thoselong-term consequences.
Who to marry?
You have to live with thoselong-term consequences.
Don't let anyone else makethose decisions for you.
Speaker 2 (54:35):
And all the people said amen.
The people said amen Absolutely.
And, and you know, I thinkthere is a level where it is
really scary to start takingresponsibility for your own life
.
It is really scary.
It's something most of usweren't taught to do.
We don't have the skillsnecessarily to do that and know
(54:56):
that in the process you're goingto make mistakes, you're going
to get it wrong and it's okay.
It is okay.
Trust your process, trust yourgut, Trust your intuition.
Embrace the mistakes.
I think mistakes typically justtend to be a reminder to pivot
(55:18):
to change, reminder to pivot tochange.
Nothing wrong with that.
It doesn't devalue you.
It doesn't mean you're dumb.
No matter what happens in theprocess, you are still worthy of
dignity, you are still worthyof respect and long term, I
think you're going to be gladyou made those choices.
Speaker 1 (55:37):
Mic drop.
I think that's a great place towrap up this conversation.
Thank you all so much forhanging out with us this
afternoon.
Wish you all the best and gomake some mistakes.
We'll be thinking of you, youcan do it and we'll be cheering
(55:58):
you on, that's for sure.
Take care and we'll see yousoon.
Speaker 2 (56:13):
Thank you for spending time with us today.
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond what?
Speaker 1 (56:23):
are your thoughts about college and recovery from
high demand religion.
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences and we
want to talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atuncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom.
That's uncoveredlifebeyondatgmailcom.
That'suncoveredlifebeyondatgmailcom.
Speaker 2 (56:42):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode Until
next time stay brave, stay bold,stay awkward.
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