47. When Passive-Aggressive is Your First Language: Moving on from Manipulation

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
This is.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
Rebecca, and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.

Speaker 1 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path Along the
way, we've uncovered a fewinsights we want to share with
fellow travelers.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up, we are here to cheeryou on and assure you that the
best is yet to come.
Welcome to Uncovered LifeBeyond.
Hello everyone, welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.

(01:08):
This is Naomi and this isRebecca.

Speaker 1 (01:12):
So here we are back for another week.
What's been happening in yourworld, Naomi?

Speaker 2 (01:18):
Well, you know, so often I start a personal update
by talking about how overwhelmedand, you know, flying by the
seat of my pants and that, andthat's been real, and I know it
is true for a lot of otherpeople too.
I'm not sure what's going onright now, but I'm good with it.
I'm not sure if it is becausesome medication changes recently

(01:41):
or because I haven't had a tonof meetings at work like I have
often had this time of year, ormaybe it's the group coaching
program that I'm that I joinedhere at the beginning of the
year.
I well, I was gonna say I havea lot of energy, but it's not
that I can just function.
I can just function.

(02:02):
It's not like it doesn't takeall this effort to like get me
up, you know, out of my chair,get me up out of bed, I'm
sleeping better.
That's amazing, I don't know.
I don't know, I don't know whyNow still need to get to the gym
.
We're gonna hope that that willcome, I hope.
And this weekend I was able toget up and function Saturday

(02:24):
morning and Barrett, my son, hada couple of friends over and
they had the living room lookinglike three 12-year-old boys who
were eating popcorn and wood.
But I got up and made themwaffles and then had them help
me pick everything up and bynoon I was like I'm going to

(02:46):
start working on a macrameproject and so I ended up.
Well, I showed you a little bitago.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
I ended up making this table runner.

Speaker 2 (02:55):
So I can't tell.
I wish I could say why I'm.
I'm feeling good right now andit's not just one day, it's
several days here in a row.
Oh, the other thing I didn'ttake my Adderall yesterday
morning and I didn't even noticeuntil last night that it was
still there in my littleorganizer, and I can't imagine.

(03:19):
Adderall is what helps me befunctional.
That's amazing, I know.
So it's wonderful.
So I guess all that to say youknow what.

Speaker 1 (03:27):
You know what I feel like I need to point out.
You've been spending a lot oftime and I know this just paying
attention to yourself, to whatyou're needing, and I think that
is so huge.
So what if it takes us fiveyears to figure out what it is
we need?
It's a process of payingattention.

(03:49):
It's a process of saying yes,saying no, saying I'm not sure,
and you kind of learn, I think,in that process what your body
needs, what you need emotionally, and I mean cheers.
I think just the thing thatyou're sleeping is so huge.

(04:10):
I love to sleep, hey, hey, Iget angry if I can't sleep.

Speaker 2 (04:17):
So I have always been a sound sleeper, until I had
babies, and then the babies werenot sound sleepers.

Speaker 1 (04:32):
See things flipped for me.
I was never a sound sleeper andlike I would just lay in bed
and think and think and thinkand think and think and couldn't
sleep because I was thinking.
And then when I had, when thetwins were born, I reached the
point where I was just so bloodytired Like I could sleep
anytime, like you gave me anopportunity to sleep and I was
out, and I wonder if that didn'tkind of teach me how to sleep
almost okay.
Okay, in some weird way.

Speaker 2 (04:53):
yeah, um, yeah so no, I like to sleep.

Speaker 1 (04:56):
I like to sleep.

Speaker 2 (04:57):
Yeah, oh, it makes a world of difference, makes like
thinking thinking instead ofsleeping is just craziness.

Speaker 1 (05:04):
Oh, that's anxiety.
Yeah, yeah, bless my 12 yearold self.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
Well, and I think it's interesting too, nobody
loves a life hack more than I do, and yet and yet I don't know
what happened here Like I don't,it wasn't.
I can't point to any one lifehack, but more space for myself
from those kinds of things.
So I guess it's kind of acombination of things that I

(05:51):
could control and things that Ican't.
The group coaching program I'mjust going to give a shout out
to this because I know there's aton of life coaching programs
out there and they run the gamutof when it comes to quality,
but this one, this one issomeone whose podcast I've been
listening to for a long time andI've never.

(06:14):
It's Kristen Carter.
I have ADHD is the name of herpodcast.
I've been listening to herpodcast for years and always
find her work really helpful,very compassion oriented, and I
think that has helped reduceanxiety just by helping me
reframe things.
I had always stopped short ofbuying her program because it

(06:38):
was out of my budget and thenshe had a special at the
beginning of the year and Ithink that's part of it, you
know.
And so it's like it's thiscombination of things that you,
that I could and couldn'tcontrol, and I don't know.
I just want to say I'm.
It's awesome to feel like youcan function without dragging a

(06:59):
bag of you know 50 pound bag ofpotatoes with you.
And to anyone out there who isfeeling like that, know that you
are not lazy.
There's nothing wrong with you.
There's a reason.
Your body needs something.
It's not getting you needsomething.
This is not a moral failing onyour part.
It's just amazing what canhappen when we approach things

(07:23):
with self-compassion.
What can happen when weapproach things with
self-compassion rather thanguilt and shame and being mean
to ourselves.

Speaker 1 (07:30):
You know, I think that's such an important point.
I mean, no one talks more aboutbeing hot, shafiq and not lazy
and getting stuff done.
That's important in our culture, in the Amish Mennonite culture
and I know a few years ago Iread an article about there's no
such thing as laziness.

(07:50):
And I remember being soimpressed the way it reframed
things, and it also made methink about the ways sometimes
we're busy for the sake of beingbusy because we don't want to
be lazy.

Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yes, oh, we don't want to be labeled lazy.
We don't want others to thinkwe're lazy because we know
that's not a good thing, that'sa bad thing, that's a bad thing
to be, that's a serious that's aserious, that's an offense,
social, yeah, so good for you,good for you.
Well, thank you.
There's another podcast that isvery much along these lines as

(08:33):
well Struggle Care, and I'mblanking on her name, but if you
, if you Google Struggle Care,she's the one who wrote the book
how to Keep House Fall Drowning, and that's that's really good.
Good, too, very much along thesame lines again the, the person
who is feeling guilty for notbeing hot.
Shabby enough it it is.

Speaker 1 (08:54):
It's, it's the antidote for that yeah yeah,
yeah so and it's huge, it's soimportant yeah, and I'll put
these.

Speaker 2 (09:02):
I'll put these links um in the show notes, if anyone
is interested.
Who knew that being kind toyourself is going to be so much
more productive than being meanto yourself?

Speaker 1 (09:10):
Yep, and it's like being your own best friend and
advocating for yourself is soimportant and certainly
something I wish I would havefigured out younger.

Speaker 2 (09:24):
Yes, snap snap out younger, yes, snap, snap, snap,
absolutely.

Speaker 1 (09:27):
And it's everything we were taught not to do Exactly
.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
Which we're going to get into today Exactly.
But tell me about you.
How has the semester going?
How's life on your end?

Speaker 1 (09:42):
Good have you?
Guys had just a motherload ofsnow.

Speaker 2 (09:46):
No, we missed that.
That went south of us, butwe've had really cold
temperatures.

Speaker 1 (09:52):
Yeah, it's been bloody cold here, but snow.
I don't remember having thismuch snow on the ground for this
long in years.
I bet we have had snow on theground covered.
I mean it feels like two weeksI don't think I'm exaggerating
two weeks.
We have had so many snow daysfrom like school snow days and

(10:12):
yeah, just just cold, and it'skind of weird.
Like it kind of changes.
Like I almost look out thewindow and I'm still surprised
to see snow.
And there's snow still thereand, oddly enough, the snow
makes everything look brighter.
So even gray skies don't feelquite as gray it's weird.

(10:36):
Yeah, yeah.
So yeah, it's been bloody cold.
Not huge fan of it, but still Ihave been worried because we've
had increasingly less snow thepast several winters.
Yeah, which always concerned me,because then I feel like we
have drier summers, which hasits own concerns.
But yeah, I'm doing good.
I have two classes thissemester, my final semester,

(11:00):
woohoo, you know right, both ofthem are interesting.
The one's more interesting thanthe other.
One is, I think, the NewVentures.
One is going to be good for me,but it's detailed and I don't
like details.

Speaker 2 (11:11):
Is that the one where you're writing a business plan?
Yeah, yeah, can't wait to seehow that turns out, because I
love the project you're workingon.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
And I think it's going to be good.
I think it's going to be good,like I think it's going to be
good for me to sit down and doit.
And then the other one isrhetoric of God, which is quite
interesting actually.
Yeah.
Yeah, you know if I canunderstand why people study
philosophy?
It's interesting and there's somany connections like human

(11:41):
nature, like we think we're sounique and developed and we're
really not.

Speaker 2 (11:47):
So rhetoric of God, is it looking at a particular
religion or is it looking acrossreligions Across?

Speaker 1 (11:55):
religions.
Okay, I think we're going to bestudying all the major
religions and then quite a bitof philosophy, okay, and kind of
how language is used.
Okay, and then quite a bit ofphilosophy, okay, and kind of
how language is used.
Okay, yeah, that's what I waswondering, yeah, how language is
used to describe and howlanguage is used to take power.

(12:18):
Oh, that sounds reallyinteresting.
So yeah, it's been reallyinteresting really interesting.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
So, yeah, it's been.
It's been really interesting.
That's great.
That's great.
I'm so glad um that you've gota quote-unquote fun class yeah,
yeah, you've got, you've gotclasses you um are personally
invested in in.
Yeah, to finish it up, that'sgreat and it feels weird.

Speaker 1 (12:38):
Like it feels weird to be like this is the final
semester, like this, is it likethat?
That that feels strangely weird.
Yeah, and I think I'm stillprocessing what that means.
Like right, yeah yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:51):
Well, you know what we should.
Um, if you're up for it,sometime, do a podcast talking
about what comes after.

Speaker 1 (12:57):
You know, like kind of are you gonna tell me I'm
gonna have to grow up then get?

Speaker 2 (13:02):
an adult job no, no, but it might be fun to kind of
talk about what are some of the,what are some of the things you
can do or might want to thinkabout in midlife and and yeah,
it may be career related or ormaybe something else.
Um, you know, but now what, thenow what?

(13:25):
I guess Right, I mean because Ithink there's a lot of
possibilities and sometimes wejust need a place to, or the
space to, think about them andimagine and dream.

Speaker 1 (13:39):
And you know, I'm finding there's a fine line
between doing the right nextthing and just trusting doors to
open for you, and I thinkthat's important.
But also, if you don't knowwhat to do, someone else is
going to be happy to tell youwhat to do.

Speaker 2 (13:56):
Very true.

Speaker 1 (13:57):
I love that and I think there's a real fine line
there, yes, and I'm in aposition where I don't
necessarily have to worry aboutwhat I'm going to do Right,
which I mean.

Speaker 2 (14:09):
I know that's a place of privilege, it's a place of
privilege, but that doesn't meanit opens up any less valuable
doors.
Like that means there are doorsthat are available to you that
could make a huge difference in,well, not just your life, but
others' lives too.
Like I think there's a lotthere to talk about.

(14:30):
That is really exciting.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
And I do think, like I've been surprised at how much
I've been wrestling with thefear, and maybe grief, of how
old I am when I'm finishing, andI'm not sure if I haven't fully
dealt with it I probablyhaven't because I think I'm kind

(14:53):
of sitting in it, but I thinkthere's something there and I
keep thinking about what itcould be like if I was even 10
years younger.
However, then I swing back tothe thing of you know.
You know, no matter what ageyou are, you're going to be this
age, whether you would havestarted college or not.
So good for you for startingcollege.
You're here, you're done, youknow whatever, but I don't think

(15:16):
getting into quote, theprofessional world, working for
someone else, is going to bebeneficial to me, Like I don't
think people for the most partare going to value my education
this late in life and I think Ineed to figure out how to make
it work for me Right.

Speaker 2 (15:36):
Well, I don't think the job market values the
experience that you do bring,and you and everybody else who
is in a similar situation.
You, you have not been doingnothing.
You know like right, right,right, you have, but they're
skills that are not recognizedand and are not.

Speaker 1 (15:55):
That's society's loss stay at home moms, moms without
education, women withouteducation, whatever they are the
people who show up and areresponsible workers and they do
all kinds of stuff for a littlebit of pay.

Speaker 2 (16:11):
Yeah, I do think that , knowing you and knowing your
capacity to find, I was gonnasay find projects.
Yeah, I mean like you have, youhave a way you.
You are interested in lots ofthings, lots of people, and so I
think leaning into theprivilege of not needing to go

(16:35):
for a 40 hour a week, careeroriented job is opens a lot of
doors that I'm frankly jealousof, I envy you, so anyway, we
can have a conversation aboutthis.

Speaker 1 (16:51):
The other thing that I think is huge, though, that
I've been thinking a lot about,is it's college that has taught
me how to advocate for myself,and it's just interesting that
I'm here and I am more thanwilling to be like yeah, no, I'm
not going to do that.
Yeah, no, no, that's not,that's not right.
No, we're not going to do that.

(17:12):
Yeah, and it's such afascinating place to be at.
Like I wish I would have hadthat vocabulary when I was 30.
Tell me about it.

Speaker 2 (17:20):
Yeah, I had college and I was still, and I was still
.
Not get mad, not be resentful,not be you know, yeah, but just
be like, yeah, no, we're notgoing to do that what you're
describing is empowerment, right, Because we that those big
emotions come from feelingpowerless and feeling like
there's nothing we can do andthe feeling that injustice of it

(17:44):
and the kind of desperation toget out of that place is where
all that emotion comes from.
And when you feel empowered andI was listening to somebody
this week who was saying, whowas making the distinction
between it's one thing to havechoices, it's another thing to
feel empowered to pursue whatyou want to do and, yeah, when
you feel empowered, those bigemotions aren't necessary

(18:09):
because you can just do what youneed to do yeah, Well and like,
in some ways, I think some ofthe options are still the same.

Speaker 1 (18:17):
Some of the expectations that are thrown
your way are still the same.
People might still wish to kindof I don't know, take advantage
of you or get as much as theycan from you, and just, I don't
know the ability to be like Idon't think we're going to do
that.
Yeah, it's great, that'sawesome, it's kind of a really

(18:41):
cool place to be.
And I will also say back toyour thing of choices, I think
we'd like to talk about peoplewho quote make good choices and
the power of making thosechoices.
Sometimes there aren't goodchoices to make, absolutely
Sometimes there just aren't goodchoices available, and I will

(19:04):
forever hold space for that.
And if you find yourself inthat position, feeling that way
it is real this week is like yes, there are choices.

Speaker 2 (19:34):
And sometimes they just all suck.
Sometimes they just all suck,yeah, and it's like this mix of
what we get to choose and whatwe don't, and we're just doing
the best we can with what we'vegot.
Yeah, absolutely.
And that is not a moral failing, that's life.
Yeah, exactly so.
Shall is not a moral failing,that's life.
Yeah, exactly so.
Shall we get into our topictoday?
Yeah, why don't we.
So our episode today wasprompted by a comment online

(19:57):
that a listener left, and wethought it was a great extension
of what we've been talkingabout before and a really
important topic to discuss.
So I'll read Sonia's comment.
When I left my church, I slowlystarted to realize that my
friends were all just like mydysfunctional family,

(20:18):
manipulative.
My therapist told me that Igravitated to people like that
because it was familiar.
When I started to really lookat my friends, I realized they
were not really good friends.
It took some time for me todevelop healthy relationships,
healthy friendships, but Idropped most of my old friends
and have much better friends now, and what I've noticed is the
old ones didn't even try to keepme, they just let me go.

(20:40):
Maybe you could do a podcast onthis topic.
I think a lot of people stay inunhealthy friendships because
they can.
Thank you, sonia, for thisreally insightful comment and
question.
And I don't think.
Well, I know we don't have allthe answers to this, but we can

(21:00):
certainly relate to this dynamic, this experience, and are more
than happy to have aconversation about it.
Start a conversation about itBecause I think this is a
familiar reality for many of uswho leave Amish, mennonite or
conservative Anabaptisttraditions, as well as those who

(21:21):
leave other kinds of highdemand groups.
I think this is an experiencethat many of us have had.

Speaker 1 (21:28):
Right and these groups tend to be tight knit.
They give us a socialexperience.
They're often our entire socialworld and you know, isn't this
kind of some of the attractionto even cults Like?
It gives you your identity, itgives you the rules and you

(21:49):
don't have to make a lot ofdecisions.

Speaker 2 (21:51):
Yeah, it gives you a solution, gives you a formula,
right.

Speaker 1 (21:55):
And then, of course, we're kind of indoctrinated to
think that outsiders are theones that are suspicious and
often ill-intended, and so itjust kind of solidifies our
loyalty to the group.
And then when all of a suddenwe leave that group, it's like

(22:16):
what are we supposed to do?
Because up until now we werenot trustful of outsiders.

Speaker 2 (22:22):
Right.
I remember being at a point inmy life when I had left a high
demand group and I was talkingwith a counselor about the
difficulty of building a newsocial life and I was learning
about spiritual abuse.
I was learning and this is, ofcourse, before deconstruction

(22:43):
was a commonly used word but Iwas learning about these
cult-like characteristics thatare common in many churches and
I was kind of freaking outbecause I was seeing spiritual
abuse behind every bush and yetat the same time, I didn't know
where to socialize.
I didn't know how to socializeoutside of a churchy context and

(23:07):
where I was working was a verychurchy context.
I remember the counselor saidwell, you know, just go to a bar
, there'll be plenty of peoplewho will be willing to show you
around.
And he was kind of playing adevil's advocate because he was
a Christian counselor and hewasn't actually suggesting that.
But I was like I don't, Iwouldn't know the first thing
about like going to a bar, likeI mean, that was something we

(23:30):
were indoctrinated to fear, likeit's, like that would not have
occurred to me and was notremotely appealing.
And I was like, yeah, I don'tknow, like that's like a
language that I don't speak, andI just remember being in that
place and feeling alone.

Speaker 1 (23:48):
It's true, Naomi.
I was 30 and someone suggestedI go to a bar for something and
I was like, and hasn't been to abar yet plenty of us, and true

(24:21):
that it's not that big a deal itis, though yeah, it is we'd
feel it.

Speaker 2 (24:28):
Many of us would feel as out of place, or would have
felt as out of place as someonewho, you know, is going to
church for the first time, right, right, you know, and and I
think one of the things thatmakes the development of those
new social networks, newfriendships, new connections, is
that we've been enculturatedinto what often comes out as a

(24:53):
passive, aggressive style ofcommunication, and I think this
is what Sonia's comment wasgetting at that when that
passive, aggressive style ofcommunication assumes, you know,
because you don't have thoseshared experiences and so you
have to speak more directly.
And I remember and this is evenlater, like years later thinking

(25:20):
I know how to be rude, like interms of like.
I was trying to stand up formyself, trying to speak up for
myself.
I knew that was something Ineeded to do, and yet I didn't
have the words for it and it was.
I remember that feeling of like.
I know how to be rude and Iknow how to be polite and
passive, but where's the inbetween?
How do you speak up foryourself and still be nice?

(25:41):
And that was a language weweren't taught.

Speaker 1 (25:45):
And, to be fair, we learn how to, or we don't know
how to speak outside of thispassive, aggressive
communication, but we don't knowhow to listen either, outside
of that.
So not only the way we expressthings now are are maybe not

(26:07):
always appropriate, but also theway we interpret what we hear
and the way we translate isn'talways correct either.
And to your point about knowingthe in-between, I remember
clearly being in situationswhere outside people would
comment on how direct I was andit was that art.

(26:32):
And I think actually thehealthier I got, the less I
cared because I was just likewhatever.
But I think there is that fineline of finding the middle.

Speaker 2 (26:47):
Yes, and I think a lot of it has to do with a
particular mindset and it goesbeyond just being a little bit
rude and a little bit polite,you know, and mixing the two
together.
But I think it's, I think it'seven a bigger reframe than that
which which we'll get into, andand I think that there are many
layers to it, right, right, andI think talking through some of

(27:09):
those layers might help us startto recognize them just in
everyday life and kind of movetoward whatever the
communication style is thatserves us better, right.

Speaker 1 (27:20):
Something I've been thinking a lot about is the
paradox.
The German language tends to bereally direct.
Our first language wasPennsylvania Dutch, we think in
this very direct way but yet theAnabaptist theology of
non-resistance tends to promotethis certain passivity, and

(27:44):
especially, especially where yousee yourself on the chain of
hierarchy.
So the lower you are on thehierarchy, the more passive
you're supposed to be, and Ithink I've thought a lot about
that and how interesting thatplays out community.

Speaker 2 (28:00):
You aren't engaging with strangers.
You're talking to people whoknow your background, you know
their background, you know theyknow your life story.
You know there's right andthere's so.
There is a lot of, there's alot that can, maybe formalities

(28:22):
that are kind of skipped over.

Speaker 1 (28:25):
There's a lot of things that are unsaid.

Speaker 2 (28:27):
Yes, yes, and that right.
And then that unsaidness can Iguess that can be expressed both
in directness and in passivity.
And then, I think, in momentsof stress, so moments of anxiety
, including social anxiety wetend to resort to a passive
communication style.

(28:48):
And one of the things that'sinteresting to think about here
is how, when we experience that,when we find ourselves shutting
down or becoming very passiveand feeling almost Now it may or
may not be, but our nervoussystem may or may not be picking

(29:17):
up on the right signals, but Ithink that is something to think
about when we feel thatparalysis coming on us and I'm
very familiar with it torecognize, oh yeah, this is
because right now I'm in anunfamiliar situation or I'm
feeling threatened and this iswhere my body's been conditioned
to go Right and when we'refeeling safe, when we're with

(29:38):
close friends, we can tend to bereally direct.

Speaker 1 (29:44):
Because of the shared context it gives space for, and
even an assumption for, all theinside jokes, for the assumed
knowledge that you might nothave outside of that.

Speaker 2 (30:00):
Right, right, I mean I think of, like those long days
of canning applesauce orpeaches or freezing corn, and
often there would be, you know,storytelling or interesting
conversations, right, becauseyou had the space, hours and
hours for them to take place.
And you know this is whenyounger ones learned about the

(30:22):
escapades of their elderssometimes the older generation.
Then, when we're used to thatbeing the context for this more
direct, relaxed conversation, itcan be hard, and for some of us
, I think, it's harder thanothers.
For me it's very difficult togeneralize that to a context

(30:44):
with people you don't know ordon't know as well.

Speaker 1 (30:47):
The way I experience that is often feeling like I'm
frozen or just not very much fun, you know, and having a hard
time really loosening up aroundpeople that I don't know well,
yeah, no, I think that is soreal affirms our sense of not
belonging, not knowing whatwe're doing, feeling lost, and

(31:09):
so our confidence then gets lostin that whole thing and it can
become this vicious cycle noplace for the stranger, and I

(31:41):
think what he was talking aboutthere was that ease with which
we're socialized to engage withstrangers.

Speaker 2 (31:44):
It doesn't mean that they won't talk to someone, it
just means in the social settingthere's not a Okay.
Here's an example.
You don't need signs on thebathroom door of which is men or
women's room right at church,because everybody just knows.

Speaker 1 (32:01):
Yeah, you know and so .
And sit on the right hand side,the restrooms.
Even if there's restrooms inthe basement, the restrooms will
be on the same side for the menthat they are sitting Right.
I never thought about thatbefore.

Speaker 2 (32:22):
And this is not to say that, because I bet if we
went back to the church that weattended when we were children,
I bet they do have the doorsmarked.

Speaker 1 (32:32):
But I'm just saying it's a fairly new thing.
I bet when we were kids theyweren't Right.

Speaker 2 (32:38):
And there was no need .
There was no need Right.
Another way that this manifestsitself is how introductions,
like formal introductions, arerarely made, because A people
are usually on a first namebasis and everyone already knows
your life story, or at leastthe public version, and then
socializing is typicallygendered.

(32:59):
So you're you know, socializingwithin you know, other for us,
other young women.
But this was something thatJodi Picoult talks about in her
book, about that's set in anAmish community.
That really struck me, and itwas that the character in the
book was non-Amish backgroundand was there for just a couple

(33:22):
of weeks and had come to churchand she thought she expected
that she would be introduced topeople you know like there would
be these formal introductionsand no, and nobody even like
paid any attention to her.
And she realized, oh, word hadgot out beforehand that she was
coming and that she would bethere.
Everybody knew who she wasalready.

(33:43):
For me that was enlightening,because I hadn't even
consciously thought about that,but I was like, oh yeah, Cause
that's why, like I stillstruggle, I still have to like
consciously remind myself tointroduce myself.
Somewhere deep inside methere's a little girl that is
nervous about taking theinitiative to say hi, my name is
Naomi Clark.

Speaker 1 (34:03):
Yeah, and if there are introductions made, they're
made based on who your parentsare oh, yes, who your
grandparents are, yes, ifintroductions are made, it's
based on the Mennonite game.

Speaker 2 (34:19):
Right, and they're done very informally, but yes,
and that is an important part ofthe socializing process, right.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
And so when you get outside of that community and
all of a sudden have to makeintroductions where who your
grandparents are doesn't matter,you're lost.
What does matter?
What is important?
Who am I outside of that?

Speaker 2 (34:42):
And especially when you haven't gone to high school
or you haven't gone to college,right, like.
What do you talk about, right,right, yeah, yeah.
Now I know this is not uniqueto plain cultures.
I've read about this, you know,in relation to other cultures
too, and it's so interestingbecause I can't even tell you
where.
I think it was like on theradio ages and ages ago.

(35:04):
They were talking about avillage that I guess
sociologists or anthropologistswere visiting in rural China and
they were talking about how thepeople didn't say please and
thank you as they were passingthings around.
And it wasn't about rudeness,it was just please and thank you
would have been like theseformal.
It would have felt like tooformal that you were like

(35:27):
actually distancing yourselffrom the family members sitting
around the table and I was like,okay, because sometimes plain
culture can come across as rudebecause it, when it lacks those
formalities and I'm not sayingpeople don't say please and
thank you, just that itresonated with me when I heard
that.

Speaker 1 (35:46):
But growing up we didn't use please and thank you.
That makes sense.
Well, thank you.

Speaker 2 (35:52):
That makes sense.
Well, did we?
I remember being taught to saythat, but not.
But wasn't it outside, kind ofoutside, like if you?

Speaker 1 (36:06):
were outside of the.
Yeah, maybe that's what it was.
If a stranger was giving you apiece of candy, okay Say thank
you.
Yeah, you're right, it wastaught outside.
It wasn't taught when you werefunctioning inside the community
.
Yeah, you're right, it was nota big deal.

Speaker 2 (36:19):
I don't think so.
You're right, that resonates.
I've looked up a list because Ithought, well, you know
somebody I'm sure on theinternet has a list of direct
and indirect communicationstyles, and I found one example
I thought was really relevanthere and interesting and kind of
makes that unspoken spoken.
And this is a quote fromsomeone who said that what isn't

(36:40):
said can be as important aswhat is said, which, yes,
absolutely, and here's the quoteI would never tell a friend
that I didn't like her dress.
Instead, I would tell her Iliked her shoes, omitting
reference to the dress.
Right, and maybe you know,especially this is like a new
dress or something she wouldunderstand.
I didn't like her dress becauseI didn't mention it, and I

(37:01):
think white middle class culturedoes this a lot.
I think so too actually I don'tthink this is just traditional
cultures that does this, yeah,does this, yeah, oh yeah.
But I think you know we weresocialized to keep quiet, keep
our heads down, get to work,don't draw attention to yourself
, being demure, almost shy, wasa virtue, and I think the only

(37:32):
initiative that we generallyheard applauded you know,
someone taking initiative waswhen they were doing work
quietly in the background andnot to say that's not valuable,
but it's just.
We knew that drawing attentionto ourselves was going to be
interpreted in a really negativeway and that we were given that
message in a million differentways.

Speaker 1 (37:50):
Yet at the same time, that didn't actually work out
well.
Message in a million differentways, yet at the same time, that
didn't actually work out well.
Right, you know, this week, thisweek, I heard the phrase oh we
don't take him that literally,we just take him or that

(38:11):
seriously.
And I think there were some ofus in the culture who took
things literally and then all ofa sudden looked around and we
were like, yeah, that's actuallynot how it's actually working.
What was said, the rules thatwere given or communicated yeah,
when followed literally didn'twork out well.
Yeah, no At the same time,because if you actually followed
those rules, it didn't serveyou in terms of gaining social

(38:35):
capital, it didn't bring you,you weren't popular for it?

Speaker 2 (38:41):
Yeah, nobody, because that's the thing Like.
At the same time, yes, beingsanctimonious was not like,
especially among peers.
Being sanctimonious did notmake you friends, right.

Speaker 1 (38:52):
Like, especially among peers.
Being sanctimonious did notmake you friends, right?
So it was like this tightropeof keeping the authority figures
happy, but yet you had to haveenough.
And is this where the passive,aggressive thing becomes so
important?
Because you still had to haveenough of a personality that
other people found it attractive, yeah Well to connect with

(39:14):
anyone, you have to have apersonality to be remotely
authentic.

Speaker 2 (39:19):
Yeah, and I think that emphasis on following the
rules right, doing everythingright, and so if you were a
young person who really tookthat seriously and literally
following those rules socarefully, makes it very
difficult to be authentic,because your focus is not on

(39:40):
being who you are, the focus ison meeting expectations, and
emotionally close relationshipsare nearly impossible without
authenticity, are nearlyimpossible without authenticity.
And I think this thing kind ofwell.
It comes out sideways throughpassive aggression.
And I think another place wesee hints of this is how we

(40:04):
admired the spirit andspontaneity of characters like
Anne of Green, gables, valancyin the Blue Castle and both of
these are Ella Montgomery books.
We admired their spirit, weadmired their daring.
At the same time, we knew wecouldn't do that, but we admired

(40:24):
it and there was acontradiction there and you know
we talked about people whocould bend the rules and get by
with it.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
As you know, we'd say I'll ask that a slippery, and
when, when outsiders talk aboutsomeone being slippery, they're
usually talking about someonewho might steal.
Okay, right, oh, interesting,yeah, and in in that context, it
was just more someone who knewhow to work the system.

(40:56):
Yeah, and I still think inHolmes County, you see a lot of
Amish who are incrediblyInnovative.
Yeah, and I still think that'swhere that skill comes from.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I stillthink that's where that skill
comes from.
Yeah, yeah, you have theserules, and how do we learn to

(41:16):
work inside the rules but makeit work for us?

Speaker 2 (41:39):
Right To achieve our Right, yeah, yeah.
And I think another way thiswould manifest itself was also
how much we look forward tobeing older, getting older, yeah
, yeah, and you know, becausethen we'd be higher in the
hierarchy, we might, you know,feel more respected, have some
autonomy.
And I know my teen does notlook forward to being, to

(42:04):
getting older, like she's scared, frankly, of that.
That's an overstatement.
I think she's very aware of theworld and and she knows she
maybe knows too much and it doesnot look appealing in
comparison to the safety andcomfort of home.

Speaker 1 (42:24):
You know, it's interesting to say that I had
some of my kids in therapy atone point and I remember talking
to their therapist and justbeing like, so confused.
I'm like you know we had thisconversation and they're like
but I don't want to grow up, Idon't, you know, I think I think
the conversation was like oh,my word, I am 14.
In two years I'm gonna have tobe driving a car and then two

(42:46):
years later, we have to be goinginto college, freak out time,
like just just.
And I remember looking at thetherapist, being like I don't
get it.
What am I doing wrong?
And she looks at me and she'slike you're doing nothing wrong,
do you not understand how safethey feel?
And I was like, oh, I had neverhad that thought before, that a

(43:10):
teen wouldn't be just countingthe days for their next birthday
was a complete new thought tome right yeah, and I think to
some degree that's agenerational shift.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
Maybe that's more in the broader culture, but I yeah,
absolutely, absolutely.
I think that makes a bigdifference and also what we
didn't know.

Speaker 1 (43:30):
back to this thing about thinking that, you know,
the older we get, we mightactually get some respect and
have some autonomy In retrospect.
This wasn't really a game thatmost of us could win at
Authority.
Figures really didn't have tobe logical or fair, and wasn't
it almost more about learninghow to have the God talk?

(43:52):
Like if we could figure out howto have a Bible verse.
Yeah, text.

Speaker 2 (44:00):
Yeah, right, Right.
Or find a way to spiritualizethe thing.

Speaker 1 (44:06):
Yeah it almost became more about that conversation
which, interestingly enough, isstill many times my go-to
knee-jerk reaction.

Speaker 2 (44:17):
Oh, I remember giving notice at a job and feeling
very like I had a hard timethinking of an alternative to
the phrase.
I believe I feel God is leadingme.
Yeah, and this was again.
This was a very religious kindof workplace, so, but like
feeling like I couldn't, or Ithink maybe I finally got myself

(44:37):
to the place of saying I ambeing led I didn't say by whom
but like the difficulty insaying I am choosing this, yeah,
it was just yeah, because I hadinternalized the God talk, that
really, or the you know, theguilt trips were being taking
initiative, to take takinginitiative in my life.

(44:59):
Yeah, but, yes, I agree, it'slike because the reality is, as
you turn, as you, even, as yougrow older, yeah, you might be
higher on the hierarchy, butthere's always still someone
above you who can, who hasplenty of guilt trips ready to
pass out, tickets to guilt tripsready to pass out, you know,
yeah.

Speaker 1 (45:18):
And I also had to figure out and I remember
figuring this out that all of asudden, when I was higher on the
hierarchy, I was conflictedwith some of the unkindness that
was part of that.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
The insensitivity to others.

Speaker 1 (45:38):
Yeah, and I remember being conflicted, and not all of
a sudden.
It wasn't something I wantedafter all.

Speaker 2 (45:47):
Yeah, no, I hear you.
I hear you.
Homeschool Heretic is aYouTuber who I love and she's
got great content and we'll linkto it in the show notes.
But she made such an insightfulobservation about how, in an
insular kind of the conservativeChristian homeschool

(46:08):
environment, we are taught andwe learn how to relate to, we
learn how to relate withinhierarchies and then, once we
get out of that insular culture,can actually be a challenge to
shift gears and learn how torelate to peers instead of right
, instead of thinking of them inhierarchies.
And and I think the way that Imake sense of this in my head is

(46:32):
that it's less about theparticular age of the person
we're talking to and it's moreabout knowing or having the
language for talking withsomeone who's above you or below
you in the hierarchy, but notknowing how to talk in a
reciprocal, relational way.

(46:53):
And I feel, as I'm saying this,there are a million voices
saying, yeah, that's not true.
In my situation I have friendsand yes, yes, yes, that's right,
I'm speaking in generalitieshere, but there is a difference
in having a conversation on howwe relate to someone that we see

(47:16):
either above or below us inhierarchy versus someone we see
in an equal, reciprocalrelationship, and I think in a
lot of these insular communitiesthere's just far, far more
hierarchical relationships thanreciprocal, equal ones.

Speaker 1 (47:33):
So don't you think, though, that that's why
marriages can be so difficult?
Difficult for whom?
Because I think we are taughtto think of the structures and
the hierarchy more than we areon this neutral playing field.
I mean, everyone knows thebirth order.

(47:54):
That's important.
Where you are, even in thefamily, that's important.

Speaker 2 (47:59):
And it's childish but , like as a kid, it matters if I
remember having arguments withcousins about the five days
difference in our birthdays.

Speaker 1 (48:09):
That mattered.
It did, it did, and so doesn'tit only make sense that you get
married and your knee jerkreaction would be to move into
these hierarchies.
Yeah, I had never thought aboutit that way.

Speaker 2 (48:27):
Yeah, I think you're right and it's not.
I mean, well, of course,hierarchy in marriage is
preached, but it wouldn't evenneed to.
Yes, it's taught actively.
But even if it weren't, I thinkthese enculturated ways of
relating would contribute tothat.

Speaker 1 (48:48):
Yeah, fascinating yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:49):
Fascinating.
So I think when we have anenvironment that is emphasizing
rule following emphasizing,maintaining a hierarchy one way,
concern for needs right, ifyour needs matter, the higher on
the hierarchy you are I thinkmanipulation and passive
aggressiveness is just a naturaloutcome of an environment like

(49:11):
that.
I mean it's a survival skill,especially when it's not safe to
tell the truth about what weneed or what we want.
When you're in an environmentthat's prioritizing all these
other things and we don't feelsafe to tell the truth about
what we need or desire, it comesout sideways.
And I think one way thismanifests itself in my own life

(49:32):
too was like even being afraidthat, like giving the context
when I was apologizing forsomething or when I messed up on
something, I was nervous thatproviding context would be seen
as making excuses for myself,which the reality is.
That can come off as rude, andI'm not saying.

(49:53):
I'm not saying everybody elseexperiences this, this is just
my own brain.

Speaker 1 (49:57):
No, I think you're onto something.
I think you're onto somethingbecause making excuses is not a
good thing.

Speaker 2 (50:04):
No, no, no, no, no, no no.

Speaker 1 (50:06):
Especially if you're lower on the hierarchy Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (50:10):
Mm-hmm, yeah, and providing context can very
quickly be seen as just makingexcuses.

Speaker 1 (50:15):
Fascinating.

Speaker 2 (50:17):
And I think in this context, especially when there's
a lot of black and whitethinking or when we tend that
way, then, yeah, the onlyoptions are passivity or
aggression.
There's no way to speak upwithout being bossy, and I think
what was really important forme was recognizing that

(50:38):
assertiveness is not anotherword for being bossy.
Assertiveness is speakingfrankly, directly and speaking
with the assumption that all ourneeds matter, not just those in
charge or those higher on thehierarchy, and I think there's
this quiet, drama-freeconfidence about it that can be

(51:01):
very unsettling to a hierarchy,and it's powerful.

Speaker 1 (51:05):
I love that and I couldn't agree more.
Yeah, it is.
It is Just showing up andsaying what you need to say and
just leaving it set.

Speaker 2 (51:13):
Just showing up and saying what you need to say and
just leaving it set.
And I think part of this partof the social dynamic in many of
these contexts is that ifyou're lower on the hierarchy,
you are not allowed to say whatis true about people further up
in the hierarchy.
You know we're supposed to lookthe other way, we're supposed
to look at the beam in our owneye instead of the speck in the

(51:35):
other's eye.
You know all those verses areapplied to those lower in the
hierarchy and telling the truthabout abusive behavior, telling
the truth about unhealthybehavior, telling the truth
about behavior that's harmingsomeone, is seen as disrespect
and not as telling the truth.

(51:56):
And I think assertiveness issaying, hey look, everybody's
needs here matter, right, andwe're just going to say it like
it is no drama, we're just goingto be truthful, right.

Speaker 1 (52:06):
And I think this really becomes important when
you're looking at familydynamics, because I've been
curious about the ways manytimes there are kids who will
defend their parents to thedeath like their parents did no
wrong, everything was done,right and good, when actually

(52:27):
there were some reallydysfunctional results, really
dysfunctional results.
And I think sometimes digginginto your family history can be
really tricky because there is areal strong sense of loyalty
and a refusal to challenge thathierarchy, wanting to be

(52:51):
respectful.
But I think it's going to be areally important part of the
process for many of us to learnhow to challenge those
narratives and to keep askingquestions, because I think it
can become so insightful intosome of the family dynamics.
Right, right and yes.

Speaker 2 (53:11):
I hear what you're saying, like I think there's
like really really good heartedpeople who just want to do the
right thing and part of theright thing is being loyal, yeah
, and not airing dirty laundry,and that gets translated into
ignoring things that maybe, yeah, maybe, need to be looked into.

Speaker 1 (53:30):
In some ways, it just makes sense that abuse is
overlooked.
It's a system designed.

Speaker 2 (53:35):
Well, I say designed.
It is a system that facilitatesabuse and protects abusers.
There's no question about that.
So I think if we want to movetoward speaking with more
assertiveness and kind ofgetting outside this
hierarchical dynamic, thishierarchical style of
communication passive,aggressive, manipulative man it

(53:57):
could be hard.
It can be really hard becausewe can encounter this with
others passive aggressiveness inothers and then and also in
ourselves, and so I think itmight be easier to recognize it
in other people and then andthen recognize it in ourselves.
But hey, communication is twoways, so both of these are are

(54:19):
important.
What are some things that havebeen helpful for you in dealing
with passive aggressiveness thatyou're getting from others?

Speaker 1 (54:29):
Oh boy, dealing with passive aggressiveness in others
.
Yeah, that's interesting, Ithink.
Sometimes recognizing I don'tknow, do we call it gaslighting
effect, maybe gaslighting lighteffect and simply paying
attention to what your body istelling you and to believe the
sensory input around you.

(54:49):
We know, we have been taught torecognize what those in the
room need and want, and I thinkwe can learn to trust those
senses that we're getting, evenin this type of situation, those

(55:09):
senses that we're getting evenin this type of situation.
So, instead of looking for whatpeople necessarily want and
thinking we have to fix it,maybe we're just paying
attention to what our body istelling us about the information
we're receiving.

Speaker 2 (55:18):
We need another word for gaslighting light, I think,
because gaslighting is whensomeone's intentionally trying
to make you think you're crazyand doubt yourself by, you know,
doing something Like.
It's pretty intentional and Ithink we need another word for
the same effect that maybe getsenculturated.

(55:43):
I mean, we do this to kids allthe time when they fall and
scrape their knee oh, get up,it's not a big deal, you didn't
hurt, you're fine, you're fine,keep going.
We need a word for that.
It's like gaslighting, but wearen't is withholding
information in this process.
So it's not a lie, yeah, a lieof omission.

Speaker 1 (56:18):
Yes, and Amish Mennonite culture is pretty good
at this.

Speaker 2 (56:22):
Oh yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:23):
Knowledge is power and they know it.
Yeah, knowledge is power andthey know it.
Yeah, and and and.
So it feels like gaslighting,like you're getting this whole
like am I crazy?
Crazy?
You start playing, you'redoubting yourself.
You're doubting yourself, yeah,and and.
So, whether or not theirintention, isn't that their
intention, though, oftentimes?

Speaker 2 (56:45):
their intention is to get you to accept their reality
.
Whether or not you feel crazydoesn't matter.
Yeah I guess they just want youto accept their, their
description of reality, theirversion of reality.
Yeah, and that's the, that'sthe.
I think, that's the, that's thedifference, I think.

Speaker 1 (57:03):
And yeah, we need a word for that, but we do need a
word for that, because it'sreally real and that's something
I've really had to deal withand you know what?
I think I had to deal with thatmore here in Holmes County than
I would have in Buffalo Valley.
Interesting, like this wholething of just omitting

(57:23):
information.
You can never accuse them oflying they would never lie but
boy do they know how to omitinformation.
You can never accuse them oflying they would never lie, but
boy do they know how to omitinformation.
And then having any type ofconversation about it is like
trying to pin Jell-O to a treeyou can't do it.
So there is a real elementthere and I think, even if you

(57:48):
can never get them toacknowledge it, be honest with
yourself, with what's happeningand the ability to quit doubting
yourself, I think is soimportant Right, because what
comes next, often too, is kindof being cowed into spiritual
bypassing.

Speaker 2 (58:08):
Just give it to God.
I can do all things throughChrist who strengthens me.
We can go down the list of allthe band-aids that are offered
for deep, deep wounds.
And the reality is, of course,if you don't process your grief
and disappointment, frustration,pain, all those negative
emotions, they will come outsideways.

(58:28):
And disappointment, frustration, pain, all those negative
emotions, they will come outsideways and they do Right,
right as passive aggressiveness,as physical ailments, as all
kinds of things, mental healthissues.
And I think what is missed sooften is that in numbing the
pain, we're also numbing ourcapacity for joy.
So true, and I think, well, Idon't know, I think this kind of

(58:53):
works out on behalf of thehierarchy, because you know what
Joyful people are a whole lotharder to control than numb
people.
Numb people you can kind ofmove them around like little
widgets, right, joyful peoplehave a confidence.
That is a lot harder to control.
So I don't know that kind ofworks out well for them?

Speaker 1 (59:11):
I think it does.
I hadn't made that connectioneither, but I think you're right
.
I didn't.

Speaker 2 (59:15):
Yeah, I mean, I didn't think about it until just
now.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
The other thing that I think is important to remember
, guys there is no need to laughat a cruel joke at anybody's
expense, specifically not yours.
Don't let people hide behindthe plausible deniability of
downplaying something that wasreally cruel as a joke.
We are good at saying meanthings in a joking way.

Speaker 2 (59:39):
Oh yeah, oh my goodness.
Yes, and we can get by with itwhen we are in a group that
knows us.
When we are within, like aninsular group, we can often get
away with it better, in a waythat we could never make that
joke in public right Withoutlooking like a complete jerk.

Speaker 1 (59:58):
Well, and in Pennsylvania Dutch, there's even
just phrases, oh yeah, likeshort little phrases that can be
said, that are funny until it'sabout you, and then it's like
oh, yuck, that hurts.
Right right, and something I'vestarted trying to do and I've
practiced this in my head is,when those things are being said

(01:00:22):
, I feel like oftentimes youhave.
It feels like you have thechoice of either just laughing
with it and pretending you don'tget it or saying, oh, that's
not true, that's not true.
But there is a third option.
What if you just say out loudhuh, what does that even mean?
I don't get the joke.
Explain it to me, or why isthat funny to you?

(01:00:44):
I have found this to be sofreeing.
I don't have to decide what itmeans.
I don't have to decide what itmeans to me or them.
You don't have to pass judgment,I don't have to do the head
work, I don't have to do theemotional energy of figuring it
out.
No, I invite them to tell mewhat it means.

Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
I love that.
I love that and I think it'sgood to be aware of this,
because so often if I findmyself in a situation like that,
like it's like the moment hasalmost passed before I recognize
what it was, because it's sonormal respond in a certain way.

(01:01:28):
When somebody tells a joke, youknow you're supposed to and
when you are in an unfamiliarenvironment or you know high
stakes social situation likethat, it just piles on I but I
love those comebacks andcomebacks.
They are, they are responses.
They are, they are responses,they are assertive responses.
I think another thing that wedon't learn how to handle in a

(01:01:52):
lot of these environments, or torecognize and handle, is when
someone is not acting in goodfaith.
I think so often you know, thethings we're told about how to
handle conflict are things likekill them with kindness or
heaping coals of fire on theirhead.
Turn the other cheek Right, allthose things Right, and those

(01:02:15):
things can work in somesituations, but when someone is
not acting in good faith, weneed to recognize it, and it is
not.
It's not being judgy torecognize it, or if it is judgy,
it's OK.
I mean it's it's, it'simportant, and I think some red
flags that I've learned to pickup on that have helped me know

(01:02:39):
that I'm dealing with.
A situation like this is likewhen I find myself ruminating
again and again, right,imagining conversations, trying
to think how I'm going to wordsomething just right to keep
them from weaponizing thosewords against me.
Would you have to, again andagain, think through just the
right thing to say?

(01:03:00):
That's not going to set themoff, but it's going to get the
right response?
That is a time to pause and askyourself if they even want to
understand you or if they'reonly trying to maintain their
power position, because if theconversation is suggesting they
have no willingness tounderstand you, then nothing you
can say is going to get throughthat, and I think that's a good

(01:03:22):
time to make an internalboundary, instead of telling
them stop gaslighting me, orwhatever you could say
justifiably, making a note toself and setting a boundary
internally that aligns with yourvalues is looking out for your
own well-being.
In other words, stop playingthe game, stop taking the blame

(01:03:44):
and just disengaging to the bestof your ability and sometimes
that's easier than other timesbut radical acceptance that
someone is not acting in goodfaith is one of the most freeing
realizations in life.

Speaker 1 (01:03:59):
I think sometimes it hurts less for myself when I'm
in these situations to think, oh, they didn't mean it that way,
or, you know, I bet theirintention wasn't this.
That hurts me less initially toassume that than to understand

(01:04:21):
they knew exactly what they weredoing.

Speaker 2 (01:04:23):
Yes, I'm so glad you brought that up, because that
can be.
I mean, the way that oftenlooks for me anyway is going oh,
feeling like I'm mature enough,right, I can overlook it and I
can deal with it.
I'm not one of those highmaintenance people who make out
and out of a molehill, Right.

Speaker 1 (01:04:43):
And I think there's a certain element that it is
painful to acknowledge, thatperhaps someone who you thought
was close to you is kind ofintentionally being mean.
Oh, that hurts about themdoesn't really matter to some

(01:05:06):
level in that scenario, becauseit's like I just want to be
important enough to them thatthey don't do that intentionally
.

Speaker 2 (01:05:15):
Yeah, yeah, and radical acceptance is what can
get us out of that, but it's so,so hard and I think this is
something to recognize that, aschildren, that's how we survive,
like we have to play those.

Speaker 1 (01:05:29):
Especially as a middle child.
That's our whole gig as amiddle child.
That's how we survived, and Ithink being able to say and you
did that so well like that was askill you learned and it got
you where you are today, butit's not a skill that's serving
you well anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:05:50):
Now, as an adult, when you have more autonomy,
when you have the ability toprotect yourself in a way you
didn't before, yeah, and ofcourse, of course some of those
comments are made sometimesunintentionally.

Speaker 1 (01:06:04):
Of course, sometimes those comments are not intended
to hurt intentionally.
Of course, sometimes thosecomments are not intended to
hurt.
But even then, in a healthyrelationship, it is perfectly
appropriate to say wait, thatkind of stung, what did you mean
by that?
So this isn't about assumingthe best or assuming the worst.
This is about being honestabout the way things felt.

(01:06:31):
I love that.
And in a healthy relationship,if someone comes back and just
says, oh well, you're just beinghigh maintenance or you're just
being difficult or you're justbeing sensitive, that is a good
sign that things aren't quite ashealthy as they possibly should
be.

Speaker 2 (01:06:42):
Yeah, those are not legitimate criticisms.

Speaker 1 (01:06:48):
That's not acting in good faith from the other party.

Speaker 2 (01:06:50):
No, no no, no I mean sensitive, so what Like?

Speaker 1 (01:06:54):
right, right, yeah, and why?
How hard is it to say and I'vehad to do this Say, oh, you are
right, I can exactly see how yougot there.
What I said was hurtful orcould land.
Yeah, yeah, I said was hurtfulor could land hurtful.
Yeah, I get that Like how hardis it to just be honest about?
Yeah, I did get that wrong.
I see why that hurt.

Speaker 2 (01:07:16):
And express concern for the other person's
experience, Like how hard is itto say, how hard is it to
acknowledge it hurt them as aseparate issue from our intent,
Like that's not hard, but whenyou're operating in a dynamic of
hierarchy it is hard.

Speaker 1 (01:07:37):
Yeah, it's very unsafe when you're operating
from a sense of hierarchy or aframe of hierarchy.

Speaker 2 (01:07:45):
Right, right, and I think one of the ways that we
can kind of navigate thosesituations, or kind of one of
the guiding lights, as it were,is matching their energy, and
this is something advice youoften have given me in tricky
situations.
It is not our job to do all thework in what is supposed to be a

(01:08:07):
reciprocal relationship.
Right, I'm not going to matchmy children's energy because I'm
their parent and I haveresponsibility to them.
It's my job to set the tone,right.
But when we're dealing with apeer, when we're dealing with
someone with whom we should behaving a reciprocal relationship
, it's not our job to keep themfrom feeling any kind of

(01:08:31):
negative emotions.
And while I mentioned being inthis group coaching program and
there was one exchange that wasreally interesting to me and
relates to this that someone wassaying I think it was talking
about like setting boundaries orsaying no to obligations, that
kind of thing, and the responsewas but then I'm going to feel

(01:08:52):
guilty, and the coach says, yeah, that's your work, that's your
job is to tolerate that feelingand let them deal with their
feelings.
And so I think learning thatother people's negative emotions
aren't going to kill us, thattheir disapproval won't kill us,

(01:09:13):
I mean, I can't believe howmany decades it's taken me to
learn this, but it gets soingrained in us as children.
I mean this again this is howwe survived, but now other
people.
Other people are not dependenton us.
You know, like peers rightPeople who other adults are not.

(01:09:34):
It's not our job to make surethey feel okay all the time,
right.

Speaker 1 (01:09:40):
And a perfect example of matching energy is and I'm
not proud of this.
I am way too invested in sisterwives.

Speaker 2 (01:09:50):
I'm a little horrified.
I'm a little bit horrified oh I.

Speaker 1 (01:09:55):
I don't know why I invite this drama into my life,
but I do and there was a clipyours feel pace.

Speaker 2 (01:10:01):
It makes your your life feel peaceful, in contrast,
maybe, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:10:06):
But there was a clip where Mary realized she was
doing all the work.
She was the only one who wastexting Robin and saying, hey,
how are you?
Hey, we should get together.
If she wasn't making the effort, it wasn't being done.

Speaker 2 (01:10:23):
And Mary was the first wife and Robin is the
youngest favorite was the firstwife and Robin is the youngest
favorite.

Speaker 1 (01:10:33):
And Robin swears that Mary is her favorite person.
Oh yeah, mary, or Robin lovesto go on and on about how much
she loves Mary, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:39):
Yeah, so there's that important dynamic.

Speaker 1 (01:10:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:43):
And.

Speaker 1 (01:10:43):
Mary just made the observation that if I don't do
it, it doesn't happen, and soshe stopped.
That's matching energy.
Yeah, yes, yes, and not inevery friendship.
Like I'm not saying that everyrelationship has to be a tick
for tat, that's different.
But this is just simply beingaware that if I'm never allowed

(01:11:08):
to have a crisis, or if no one,if this person never thinks of
me and initiate something, maybeit's a bit one sided and it's
okay to pay attention to thattype of thing.

Speaker 2 (01:11:21):
You glitched right there.
It's okay to pay attention.

Speaker 1 (01:11:24):
It's okay to pay attention to what you're
receiving from other people,because I think it's easy for
it's easy for me to assume thatmaybe I need someone or I love
someone or I might lose someone.
If I don't do all the thingsand if a relationship is hinged

(01:11:49):
totally on what I do, we're introuble.

Speaker 2 (01:11:53):
Agreed, and I think this kind of dynamic is really
useful in a lot of hierarchies,but in those of us with an
Anabaptist background, martyrdomis just deep in our bones.
I mean the value of martyrdom,the virtue of it, I mean that's
stars in our freaking crownswhen we suffer.

(01:12:15):
I mean suffering.
Yeah, and it can be sovalorized.
But just notice if it'svalorized for the people at the
top of the hierarchy as much asfor those at the bottom.
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:12:30):
Right, right.
And I think I think evensometimes with our peers, it can
be easy to put thoserelationships into a hierarchy
who has the most status, who'sgot the most money, who's got
the most influence, even whenit's presented as a peer
relationship.
And I think it would do us wellto pay attention.
Yeah, and pay attention withoutjudging, just be curious about

(01:12:53):
it, like just pay attention.

Speaker 2 (01:12:55):
Right, because there can be a lot of nuance to it.
We're speaking in generalitieshere, right?
We're not.
We are not the gurus of theworld.

Speaker 1 (01:13:05):
It's just things we're learning.

Speaker 2 (01:13:06):
It's things we're practicing it's just things
we're learning, it's thingswe're practicing and but, and
there's not one right answer,and that's why being open and
curious is so important, so thatwe are taking in information
and right.
That's really helpful.
So you tell me, tell me aboutthis next one.
So you suggested recently thatI put a difficult text exchange

(01:13:31):
into ChatGPT and see whatChatGPT says about it, and so I
formatted it so that it was veryclear who was saying what, and
I put it in with a prompt toanalyze it for the relative
health or toxicity of of therelationship.
And let me tell you what chatGPT produced was well, as you

(01:13:57):
said it was.
It was a whole lot cheaper anda whole lot faster than going to

(01:14:22):
a therapist.
Yeah, we've been brought up ina very insular culture.
This can be a really useful way, because what ChatGPT excels at
is known information rightOrganizing known information.
It's not good at coming up withoriginal ideas, but it's good
at organizing information.
So I think this is an awesomeuse of it.

Speaker 1 (01:14:43):
So it also means, if you get an email or if you get a
text message and you're like Idon't know how to respond or if
I should respond, insert it intochat GBT and just see what
their take is on it.
Like I know, chat GBT gets abad rap for a lot of good
reasons Agreed.

(01:15:04):
But I'm telling you, chat GBTalso has some really, really
good good things that it bringsto the table.
Is it the perfect answer?
Is it going to take care of allyour life's difficulties?
No, but it certainly does giveyou another option and I think
it's really insightful sometimes, yeah it was more insightful

(01:15:28):
than I expected, that's for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:15:31):
Whenever we talk about it at school, I tell my
students that ChatGPT is myfrenemy, yeah that's fair.
Yeah, that's fair.
That's stronger than ever now.
I think yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:15:45):
You're getting closer and closer to the friend part
of it, right.

Speaker 2 (01:15:50):
Oh, as long as it doesn't take my job yeah exactly
.

Speaker 1 (01:15:55):
So how do we deal with passive aggressiveness in
ourselves?

Speaker 2 (01:16:00):
Well, I think something that you've mentioned
a few times already, and I thinkit's worth underlining one more
time, is that giving ourselvesgrace is so important, because
this is we deserve credit, right?
Our younger selves deservecredit for using this coping
mechanism that many of uslearned early in life, and it

(01:16:22):
was modeled for us.
It kept us safe, it kept us outof the line of fire.
You know, it's this thing thatwe aspired to, maybe consciously
or not, and now, as adults, wego oh wait, no, I don't want to
be that way, and we can kind ofbeat ourselves up all over again
for it and it's like no, no, no, no, no.
This is not sin nature, this isnot selfishness, it's not

(01:16:43):
immaturity Well, I mean, maybeit is immaturity.
Well, I mean, maybe it isimmature, but like
developmentally appropriateimmaturity, right, it's a trauma
response right it's a traumaresponse.

Speaker 1 (01:16:51):
Our nervous system's trying to keep us safe and I
think getting rid of the guiltinvolved in it or the shame
involved in it and just lookingat it with a lot of curiosity is
so helpful and and curiosity inourselves and in others, like
just be curious about it becausethat allows you to see it and

(01:17:15):
even if someone yells at you forit, refuse to accept the shame,
refuse.
You can be like, yeah, you know, I can see how you got there.
But oftentimes I think peoplewho accuse you of being passive,
aggressive, are projecting whenyou start being less easy to

(01:17:36):
manipulate.
I think this is an easy it'seasy ammunition.

Speaker 2 (01:17:41):
Yeah, yeah, it sounds so insightful.

Speaker 1 (01:17:44):
Well, and from that culture being told you're being
a passive aggressive, is thatthat's a pretty serious
accusation.

Speaker 2 (01:17:55):
Right, and I think maybe not passive aggressiveness
, but certainly passivecommunication styles have a time
and a place.
So, like it's conceivable thatsomeone who's listening to this
podcast still needs to use thatfrom time to time.
Right, you know, still is goingto like consciously.
I think that's the thing,though.
Like can you, can weconsciously choose?

(01:18:17):
Ok, I know this is not reallybeing true to myself.
Right now I don't have thebandwidth to go.
I'll play the game for now, butI know I'm doing it and I'm
taking ownership of it, and Ithink it's when it's no longer
serving us, when we're realizingwait, this is creating more
distance between me and others,this is hindering my
relationships.
That's really when it's time togo.

(01:18:38):
You know what?
Is there a better way of doingthis?
Is there a different way, a waythat's going to serve me better
?
And the thing is, it's hard tolearn new.
It can be difficult to learnnew communication patterns, but
it's possible and it just takestime and practice, and I agree
that shame and guilt only slowthat down.

(01:18:59):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:19:00):
And in the process of learning, you're going to get
it wrong.
So I mean, just be okay withthat, accept it, embrace it and
give yourself the space to learnsomething new and to practice
something different.
And I will often, if somethinghappens and I wasn't thrilled
with my response to it, I'll tryand think and not necessarily

(01:19:22):
replay the situation over andover again, but just say, okay,
the next time this happens, thenext time I happens, the next
time I get that feeling, what doI want to say in response?
And then practice that in myhead so it feels normal.
And then the next time ithappens, I have that ready.
Okay, do I like the way thatplayed out?
Do I like the way that felt?

(01:19:43):
And it kind of gives you achance to.
I mean, life is just us tryingto figure it out as we go.
We're learning new things,we're always evolving and I
think this whole notion that ifwe do things perfectly, it's
going to play out okay for us isjust crap.

(01:20:04):
Yeah, like we can't get itperfect, no one can.

Speaker 2 (01:20:07):
It's a way to keep us on that endless guilt crap,
yeah, like we can't get itperfect, no one can.
It's a way to keep us on thatendless guilt trip, yeah, yeah,
spinning.
Something that was helpful forme was to recognize what it was
I could be doing differently orhow I could see a situation
differently.
And, for example, in acounseling session I remember a
therapist.
I was talking about a situationthat was annoying me and it was

(01:20:30):
just creating a real problemfor me.
And the therapist said well,what do you need?
And I was kind of annoyed withthe question.
But I recognize now this was ina conflict with someone else
and I recognize now what he wasprobably trying to.
He probably didn't realize myown internalized resistance to

(01:20:53):
asking for what I need.
And I think what I've discoveredis that when we feel we can't
express our needs, the way thatcomes out sideways is often in
criticism to others.
So when I have a need that'snot being met, instead of saying
hey, I need this or that, whichis a very vulnerable place and

(01:21:15):
it's a place we're told isselfish and it's a you know,
there are all these reasons wedon't think about expressing
ourselves that way.
Instead we say you're beingselfish, you're.
You know it comes out ascriticism of the other person
and nobody likes beingcriticized.
Right, but you know it comesout as criticism of the other
person and nobody likes beingcriticized.

Speaker 1 (01:21:30):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:21:31):
But you know, instead of saying you're talking over
me, saying I'm not feeling heard, yeah.
Instead of saying I'll talkafter you've calmed down which
you know is like gas on firesaying something like let's talk
when we're both feeling morelike ourselves.
Or instead of I won't talk withyou when you've been drinking,

(01:21:52):
Maybe let's talk about this one.
We're both sober, yeah.
And so I think, when we findourselves looking to blame
someone, whether that'sourselves or others, becoming
conscious of it and and andgetting curious about what we
are feeling now, what series ofevents brought us here and what

(01:22:16):
it is that we need, and framingit around that need.
So, instead of saying get outof my way, I need space, I'm
coming through.

Speaker 1 (01:22:23):
It's a mental shift and this is where we can express
our needs, while also takinginto consideration others' needs
, Like it's not a zero-sum gameRight, and I think, when we
reflect on our own passiveaggressiveness or manipulative
tendencies, we can then askourselves and we do this by
being curious what did I need inthat moment that I couldn't

(01:22:46):
verbalize?
What requests could have I madeinstead?
Or maybe what internal orexternal boundaries could have
been set?
I just think starting to askthese questions more from, like
you said, more from a curiousperspective, instead of needing
to accuse or pass, is so freeingand far more productive.

Speaker 2 (01:23:11):
I agree, and that's what leads to that quiet
confidence we were talking aboutyeah, yeah, because we're no
longer trying to controlsomething we can't control Right
.
We're no longer trying to pusha rock up a hill.
I mean, you know, it's yeah,yeah.
So I was looking for some ideasthat we could talk about, ideas

(01:23:33):
that might be baby steps towardassertiveness, and I found a
description of assertivecommunication and I'll put the
link in the show notes, but thisis kind of general information
that you could that you can findin a million different places
online.
Assertive communication isdirect, honest communication of

(01:23:53):
thoughts and feelings.
It's respecting the feelings,ideas and needs of others while
also asserting your own.
So these are things we've beenalready talking about.
Now it may not be effectivewhen interacting with
individuals that threaten yourpersonal safety.
People often misinterpretassertive behavior as aggressive

(01:24:15):
.
Americans and women are oftenmislabeled as a result, and
there's a whole genderedcomponent to this we could get
into if we wanted.

Speaker 1 (01:24:24):
It's a whole gendered component.

Speaker 2 (01:24:26):
Yeah, another two-hour podcast.
Examples include I statementslike I feel when you and I need
for you to do.
Body language includes eyecontact, straight posture and
relaxed gestures.
So I think these pointsresonate with what we've already
been saying.
Now, some other things thatcame across that were really

(01:24:49):
that kind of hit.
Me included this from anarticle about making new friends
after leaving high control.
Religion was when meeting newpeople just assume that they
like you.

Speaker 1 (01:25:01):
Isn't that a novel concept?

Speaker 2 (01:25:06):
It sat me back on my butt.
Yeah, this state made merealize that I often assume
people aren't gonna like meautomatically assume a defensive
posture well it's.

Speaker 1 (01:25:16):
It's between the assumption that people might not
like me or that I have to provemy worthiness to them yes, and
it might not be active dislike,it's just just I'm going to have
to prove my worthiness.
Yes, and it does speak directlyagainst what is often taught in
high control religion toconsider oneself being bad or

(01:25:38):
evil, or less than or broken.
And the energy behind thispiece of advice is more like you
know, I have something to offer, I deserve to take up space,
I'm worthy of connection, Imatter and you know what?
I might actually be prettyawesome.
And I think it's so, soimportant to embrace that

(01:25:59):
thought process and that beliefbecause, it is true, we are
pretty amazing people, you areamazing people.

Speaker 2 (01:26:09):
Yes, yes, that's the thing To say.
I'm amazing doesn't mean you'renot Right.

Speaker 1 (01:26:15):
Right yeah, and to approach relationships in this
way goes back to that mutualdeserving of respect, that
mutual relationship.
It's not a hierarchy.

Speaker 2 (01:26:30):
Right, and I think when we approach especially
those of us who struggle with,maybe, social anxiety, that kind
of thing, I think this canreally shift things for us and a
way to express this confidence,this sense of security.
There's another word that I'mlooking for there, but is to

(01:26:52):
start the conversation and do itwith the sense of like it's
putting others at ease, bygreeting them first, and I think
at first it can be a littleawkward if we're not used to
doing that.
But I think of a friend.
Well, it was actually someone Iworked with way back in the day
.
Tandy, if you're out there, Ialways think of you with so much

(01:27:14):
fondness.
She disrupted some of my neuralpathways when it comes to
confidence.
This was an incredibly kind andgenerous, gracious, humble
colleague.
She was a few years older thanme and so I you know I kind of
looked up to her, and yet shewould approach interactions like

(01:27:36):
when she met someone for thefirst time.
She would like she just hadthis confidence about the way
she would reach out her hand andsay, hi, I'm Tindy.
And you know it was just.
I was not used to seeing thatkind of assertiveness, and it
was assertiveness out of, notout of aggressiveness, it was
not a dominating kind of thingat all and so she kind of she

(01:28:00):
scrambled my brain in a very,very good way, and I think about
her all the time when I thinkabout the power of greeting
someone first.

Speaker 1 (01:28:08):
Isn't it amazing what we can learn by watching other
people?

Speaker 2 (01:28:11):
Oh, I agree, I agree.

Speaker 1 (01:28:13):
You can learn so much by watching other people, and I
think that it's important tonote that this confidence that
comes with assertivenesscertainly doesn't mean that we
don't care what anyone thinks orthat we refuse all feedback.
That we don't care what anyonethinks or that we refuse all
feedback.
It simply means that we decidewhose feedback matters to us and
whose doesn't.

(01:28:33):
And I think this is important,coming from a tight-knit culture
, because in a tight-knitculture one person's judgment,
kind of-.
Everybody's feedback yeah, itquickly goes to everybody's
feedback and being able to ownyour own value and your own

(01:28:56):
worthiness is huge.

Speaker 2 (01:29:00):
Something that I think about in conversations
like this is a script that Ilearned from a therapy session
and this was given as one ofthose ways to make those I
statements or to make a request.
You know how to say what youneed without coming off as
criticizing the other person.
Yeah, yeah, or at least makingan attempt, because I have more
to say about that.
So first you make anemotionally neutral observation.

(01:29:22):
I see that the unfold.
So you come home from work andthe you know living room, dining
room, whatever the house is amess.
First, making a neutralobservation I see that the
unfolded laundry from thismorning is still on the kitchen
table.
And then make an I statementabout its impact on you.
So that neutral observation isnot I see you didn't do anything
or you know what have you beendoing all day?

(01:29:44):
Right, but making an Istatement about its impact on
you.
When I come home from a long dayof work just before dinner time
, I feel overwhelmed at thethought of making dinner in a
cluttered kitchen.
Make a request Is there a wayyou could fold and put away your
laundry before I get home so wecan have dinner and enjoy a
nice evening together?
So that's making a request, andI think I want to be clear here

(01:30:05):
that there are times you canmake a perfectly fine request
and if someone is determined totake offense, they will still
take offense.
And I think that is a time whenyou pay attention to their lack
of interest in your intentBecause you might be dealing

(01:30:26):
with someone who's not coming tothe conversation in good faith.
An acronym that's been helpfulfor me when you're dealing with
some of those high conflictsituations or situations that
could become high conflict andyou're going what do I say?
What do I say?
So chat GPT is a great, greatoption.
This is another one is to focuson being brief, informative,
friendly and firm, and this isfrom Bill Eddy's work and I'll

(01:30:48):
link his stuff in the show notes.
So the acronym is BIF, b-i-f-fbrief, keep it brief, keep it
informative.
Say what you need to say.
Friendly, right, not aggressive, and then firm, as in not a
pushover, right.
And in line with what I justsaid a minute ago about someone
who's not coming to aconversation like this in good
faith, I think we can't expectthat a change in our approach is

(01:31:12):
necessarily going to fix thesituation We've often been led
to believe.
You know, the marriage books,the relationship books, will
suggest that we can.
And Bill Gothard oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
In the short term, things mighteven get worse, because if you

(01:31:32):
are engaging differently, if youare not going along with this
manipulative or passive,aggressive system, you're
rocking the boat and people maynot take well to it, especially
if they themselves do a lot ofthis passive, aggressive and
manipulative behavior.
But again, you don't have tohold everything together.
You're not to blameautomatically if things do get

(01:31:59):
rocky, if things do get worse,and instead of trying to hold
everything together, just focuson what your values are.
How do you want to live?
Make that your marker ofsuccess.
Did I engage in thisinteraction in a way that I'm
proud of?
That's what matters, more thanwhether or not you live happily
ever after.

Speaker 1 (01:32:19):
Right, because in a relationship, both parties are
always allowed to change therules.
It's an evolving process and aswe grow and mature, it only
makes sense that things shift,things change, things grow and
we each, I think, areresponsible how, both parties

(01:32:43):
are responsible for how you showup in in the relationship yes
everyone has the right to changethe rules and ideally you can
talk about it openly, right, andhave a dialogue about it and
make sure everybody's needs aregetting that right right.

Speaker 2 (01:33:02):
In a toxic system that might not be possible,
right, right.

Speaker 1 (01:33:07):
So that was a lot of information.
I hope this helps.
Sonia, we probably didn't fullyanswer your question, but thank
you, thank you.
Thank you for asking it becauseit was such a good conversation
.
It was such a good question andI hope we've opened up new
areas for discussion and forreflection for all of us.

Speaker 2 (01:33:29):
Absolutely.
This conversation reminds methat ultimately, we can't escape
the impact of our past.
I mean, it made us who we areand the ways we learn to
interact with the world duringour impressionable early years
will always be with us.
But the good news is that theplasticity of neural pathways in
the brain lets us practice newapproaches and we can overcome

(01:33:53):
the awkwardness of learning anew skill.
We can know that's just part ofit not doing anything wrong,
and we can take charge of theway we communicate with people
around us, and we can do it in away that we can really feel
confident about and all thepeople said Amen.

Speaker 1 (01:34:22):
Thank you for spending time with us today.
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond.

Speaker 2 (01:34:31):
What are your thoughts about college and
recovery from high demandreligion?
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences and we
want to talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atuncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom.
At uncoveredlifebeyond atgmailcom.
That's uncoveredlifebeyond atgmailcom.

Speaker 1 (01:34:50):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode Until
next time.

Speaker 2 (01:35:06):
Stay brave, stay bold , stay awkward.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Dateline NBC

24/7 News: The Latest

Therapy Gecko

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}47. When Passive-Aggressive is Your First Language: Moving on from Manipulation