In today’s episode, we explore the shifting beliefs within Anabaptism against the backdrop of growing Christian nationalism. We reflect on our own journeys, the influence of childhood literature, and the need for active compassion towards marginalized communities.
• The history of the Anabaptist movement and its relevance today
• Understanding the conflict between Anabaptist principles and contemporary nationalism
• The role of literature in shaping beliefs and perspectives
• The importance of addressing injustices faced by immigrants and marginalized groups
Historical Resources:
Titles from our childhood:
- The Hiding Place
- Henry's Red Sea
- A Lantern in the Window
- Black Like Me
- Martyrs Mirror
- Pilgrim’s Progress
- Martyr of the Catacombs
- The Anabaptist Story
- God Knows My Size
- Tortured for Christ
- In His Steps
- But Not Forsaken
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
This is Rebecca and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path Along the
way, we've uncovered a fewinsights we want to share with
fellow travelers.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up, we are here to cheeryou on and assure you that the
best is yet to come.
Welcome to Uncovered LifeBeyond.
Hello everyone, welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.
(01:07):
This is Naomi.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
And this is Rebecca.
So it's been a week.
It has been a week, it has beena month, right.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
It feels like five months, yeah, yeah, I don't know
.
I mean I go back and forthbetween just kind of feeling
numb to all the insanity andthen also feeling really, really
angry at, well, lots of people.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Kind of like how in the world did we end up?
Speaker 1 (01:38):
here, here, and I think one of the things that has
had me scratching my head themost, especially in recent years
, is how people who taught mehistoric Anabaptist doctrine and
theology are now identifyingwith Christian nationalist
(02:00):
figures.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
And even the same people who shunned us for
leaving.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Right, right, and it's like, when we removed the
external markers of being plain,that was a greater betrayal
than betraying the two kingdomconcept that is central to
Anabaptist beliefs and theAnabaptist tradition.
(02:26):
Maybe we should talk a littlebit about this, because I know
that the Anabaptist history issomething that, on one hand, we
grew up around, many of us grewup around the martyr's mirror,
but I don't know how much thatknowledge went beyond just kind
of a superficial we werepersecuted, kind of message.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
I think there was that and I also think recently
I've been realizing we all payattention in different ways and
to different things and I wondersometimes if those of us who
paid attention to this type ofthing assumed everyone else was
too Right, right.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
So today we want to try to make sense of this, and
I'm sure we can't do that, wecan't completely do that in the
next 30-45 minutes, but maybe wecan at least start a
conversation and start trying tomake sense of these things.
Maybe it would be helpful tojust set the stage with a little
(03:32):
bit of history of who were theAnabaptists, where did they come
from, what were they about?
And this is from the AnabaptistMennonite Network website and
I'm not familiar with thembeyond this website, but this
tracks with my, this summary,this short history tracks with
(03:53):
my knowledge of it, of themovement.
It says that so Anabaptismemerged on the back of two very
different attempts to bringtransformation to church and
society the ProtestantReformation, which called for
reform in the church, and thePeasants' Movement, calling for
reform in society, and this wasback in the 16th century in
(04:13):
Europe.
So Anabaptism emerged as thesescattered communities of people
seeking alternative strategiesfor reform, and the first
radical step they took was tostart rebaptizing believers.
And these are people who hadbeen baptized into the Catholic
(04:33):
Church as infants.
And what that did is it gotthem onto the roles that would
eventually become the tax rolls,become the tax rolls, and so by
taking baptism, the authorityto baptize, by taking ownership
of that, it was one way ofstepping out of the system of
(04:53):
taxes that was facilitated bythe religious system at the time
, and they also recognized thatthere was no hope for them to
fight back against theauthorities, and so they adopted
this concept of non-resistanceto violence, pacifism, and the
(05:17):
idea was beliefs just they blewthrough Central Europe like
wildfire and it was like thepersecution and the martyrdom of
Anabaptists was kind of.
It offered a showcase of thebrutality of the governments of
(05:42):
the time and the religious orderof the time.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
And I think it's important to note so.
In Europe at this time therewas not a separation of church
and state, so the Catholicchurch was also the government,
and that was a huge part of theAnabaptist movement was the
(06:05):
insistence of the separation ofchurch and state.
But that is also why it'sincorporated in our Constitution
.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Right, right, and this is what came to be known as
the two kingdom theology.
Right, and this idea that thereyou have civil authorities and
then you have religiousauthorities, that there you have
civil authorities and then youhave religious authorities and
the Anabaptists had a front rowseat to seeing the disaster, the
corruption, the devastationthat happens when you combine
(06:34):
church and state.
And this, yeah, becamefoundational then in the US.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
And I think I've had so many people confused when, on
social media, I make commentsas far as it doesn't matter what
the fundamental religion isthat we are trying to make in
power.
Whether it is Catholic, whetherit is Islam, whether it is
Christian, it doesn't matter, itdoes the same damage.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Absolutely, and people get irate.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Exactly, people get irate.
They're like are you comparingChristianity to Islam?
No, what I am comparing is thedamage that the power does Right
.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Right To everyone, the people wielding the power
and the people being harmed byit Right.
Here's a quote from one of theearly Anabaptists back hundreds
of years ago, heinrich Bollinger, and this is quoted.
He's quoted in the Anabaptistdivision and he's explaining the
distinction between the twokingdoms, and he says the
(07:43):
secular kingdom should beseparated from the church, and
no secular ruler should exerciseauthority in the church.
The Lord has commanded simplyto preach the gospel, not to
compel anyone by force to acceptit.
The true church of Christ hasthe characteristic that it
suffers and endures persecution,but does not inflict
persecution upon anyone, and sothis persecution was a major
(08:08):
factor in bringing Anabaptistsnow as Amish and Mennonites to
the US.
I think the first ones cameover maybe in the 1700s.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
I think it was the early 1700s when they started
coming from what I could.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
And then there were multiple waves that came after
that.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
So I mean, when you think about it, anabaptists have
just been in America for 300years.
Right, am I doing wrong?
Speaker 1 (08:38):
math, yeah, something like that.
Yeah or less.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
And we strut around like we own the country, Like
settle down people.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Well, we've been given I say we because I
identify with it culturallywe're given so many passes along
the way.
We were given we could exercisethe belief of non-resistance to
war right.
So there were young men couldbe conscientious objectors and
do alternative service insteadof serving in the military.
(09:09):
They were able to kind of livein their enclaves I mean in
Europe it had been a matter ofsurvival to kind of stick really
close together in rural areas.
But over here it wasaccommodated and it has been
accommodated for hundreds ofyears.
And then even in 1972,wisconsin versus Yoder made it
(09:31):
legal for them to prevent theirchildren from having the culture
to exercise control over theirchildren that parents in the
mainstream couldn't or didn'thave.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
And this was also while we still had Indian
boarding schools.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Right.
So Native American kids werebeing taken from their families,
while Amish and Mennonites wereallowed to not only keep their
children but then also deny themeducation.
So then eventually we move intothe Cold War.
That was the time period afterWorld War II when the US and the
(10:17):
USSR were the two major worldpowers, and they were.
So.
There wasn't an ongoing war, butthere was kind of a.
They were battling for controlof the rest of the world, and
they did that through all kindsof different things.
I mean you have the war inVietnam was a manifestation of
that to some degree, but thenalso how foreign aid was
(10:40):
dispersed as a way to exertcontrol over other countries.
Aid was dispersed as a way toexert control over other
countries.
But the major thing is that wewere all terrified.
I say we were all.
Many people were terrified andcertain that any moment the USSR
was going to invade the US andI know even children in schools
(11:03):
would have drills, air drills,where they would practice
climbing under their desks justin case there would be a threat
of attack.
And this is something that wasa real part of my childhood.
Right, it was a real part.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
My dad would forever go on about the floors of the
Iron Curtain.
Yes, ever go on about thehorrors of the Iron Curtain, and
this is where CAM, christianAid Ministries, got their start.
I knew them as Christian Aidfor Romania and, let's be clear,
they have not always been onthe up and up, but this was
(11:41):
where they got their start andthey would go around to churches
to garnish support, tellingthese horrible stories about
what was happening in Russia,and we were just minutes away.
Some of those darker thingscame out after I was no longer
really tracking there.
I remember hearing whisperseven as a kid whispers about
(12:14):
affairs and inappropriateness.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
No no, no, unbelievable.
Yeah, but I spent my childhoodreading their newsletters, yeah.
And all the stories of peoplestarving in Eastern Europe
because of the communists, fearof communism which was
associated ACE, bce, thecurriculum that was huge, yes,
that we had in school in ourAmish Mennonite school.
(12:40):
John Piper, john MacArthur, allthese guys have had a huge
influence on a lot of thesecommunities.
No-transcript, which is ironicbecause even at the same time,
(13:49):
some of these communities arethe ones who are also doubling
down on the external markers,right, like plain clothing and
all that.
So it's like what theyconnected on was this
persecution complex and thisfear of the outside world that
the emerging religious right andall these evangelical voices
offered.
(14:10):
Right and all these evangelicalvoices offered, but by coming
for that.
They came for that, but thenthey stayed for the
authoritarianism and theChristian nationalism.
And I think we see this in manydifferent ways, but some of
those ways are this sense thatmight makes right, this really
buy into war metaphors, thisblack and white thinking about
(14:30):
you know you're, either you knowyou have the conservative
Americans who love this blackand white thinking about you
know you're, either you know youhave the conservative Americans
who love America and then theliberals who are maybe not even
quite human.
And one way to think of it isthat these influences, these
evangelical influences, werelike a Trojan horse that stole
their children away from theirhistoric faith through the very
(14:51):
avenues they were using tocontrol their children's
opportunities.
And what I'm thinking here islike of the Christian schools
that were using Baptistcurricula, which is very
patriotic, and all these othervoices as well who are very
nationalistic.
And so, at the very time thatthey kept their children out of
public schools and in their ownschools, then turn around and
(15:14):
gave them this Christian, verypatriotic curriculum, that
curriculum ends up being thething that pulls their kids away
from the historic faith.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
That makes sense, and I think it's also important to
point out, like I think that'swhat made Dobson so effective.
You have now parents who areafraid, and so when people are
afraid, they're looking forformulas to keep everybody safe.
And Dobson Pearls, all thesepeople were saying well, do it
(15:51):
this way, Gothard.
They're giving out formulasthat if you do this and follow
God's plan and follow God's will, you'll be able to keep your
children.
But underneath that was a plan,and I think we're seeing a lot
of that today.
Was this plan to create aChristian army to work their way
(16:15):
into the government?
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Right, right.
And it's right, because it'snot that the Anabaptists were
necessarily seeking to controlgovernment, it's that they were
drawn on board, they werebrought into this larger
Christian nationalist effort tocontrol the government.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
I think our parents, to a point, came to that place
from a very well-intended place,Sincere yeah for sure, they had
reasons to be afraid.
They were familiar with thesestories.
They had reasons to be afraid,they were familiar with these
stories.
And so, yeah, you give someonea formula, you give someone
(17:05):
who's afraid a formula, and it'svery easy to buy into that.
And I so often think about itwas a church pastor in this
community who was beingostracized for being supportive
of the LGBTQ community and Iasked him how that's working for
him and he just said you can'tlead from fear.
You cannot lead from fear.
And I think about that so oftenand I think maybe that's a huge
(17:29):
piece of what our parentspossibly missed.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
They were leading from fear, absolutely,
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
And it's so sad to see what's happening today
regarding immigration.
I am so upset what's happeningwith immigration, but the church
has come so far for protectingthe abuse within their own pews
and protecting their women andtheir kids in their own churches
(17:58):
.
How can we expect the church toprotect immigrants or even care
about immigrants?
It feels like what they careabout the most right now is
power.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Right, right and that , if might, makes right, which
is what the authority teachingsboil down to.
That's yeah, that tracks.
That makes sense.
So as we're hearing aboutwhat's happening with
immigration on the news and theway that refugees and immigrants
(18:31):
are being misrepresented, mymind keeps going to books that I
read as a child, like I keepthinking about the Hiding Place
and how the Ten Boom family hidJews in their attic during World
War II and then eventuallyended up going to the camps
themselves because of doing that, and I think about how this was
(18:58):
praised when I was a kid.
And yet what I'm hearing nowsounds a whole lot more like
Nazi rhetoric about Jews.
That's what I'm hearing aboutimmigrants.
And I also think about anotherbook, and I started making a
list here and I'll mention a fewof them and then maybe we can
(19:18):
put the full list in our shownotes or something like that.
But I thought of Henry's Red Seaby Barbara Schmucker.
The story relates a dramaticand courageous story of refugees
from Russia following World WarII.
This is a story of suspenseAmerican soldiers, russian
officers and a midnight trainride in darkened boxcars.
Here is danger, escape anddeliverance an actual event that
(19:40):
happened in Berlin in 1946.
And this is about Mennoniterefugees, who eventually wound
up in South America, I think,but this was a staple in our
background and it's published byMennonite Publishers.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
And these books would have all been both on our
family bookshelf but also likein the school library.
These were the books we wereraised on.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Right, right.
What are some books that yousee in this list that ring a
bell for you?
Speaker 2 (20:11):
What are some books that you see in this list that
ring a bell for you, a Lanternin the Window.
Help Me Remember, help MeForget Martyr's Mirror,
pilgrim's Progress, martyr ofthe Catacombs God Knows my Size
Tortured for Christ, like allthese books.
Living for Jesus Behind theIron Curtain.
Tortured for his faith, likeall of them were.
(20:35):
We were raised on this.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Right and I had to think of a book like the Family
Nobody Wanted.
And this is not a well-knownbook, but it was like this
paperback book that was probablypublished I don't know at the
70s at the latest, but it wasabout a family who adopted about
12 children and I read it.
(20:59):
I reread it as an adult andthere was.
I realized how I could become ableeding heart liberal because
of the way it talked about theracism that their family
experienced and this is midcentury and the assumptions that
their family experienced.
This is mid-century and theassumptions that were made about
their children of differentraces, and they were adamantly
(21:21):
anti-racist.
But it made me aware of howpervasive this was.
And another book that I somehowgot a hold of was Black Like Me,
and this is a book that hasbeen critiqued for very good
reasons.
But it's a story of a whitejournalist who goes into the
South, I believe in the late 50s, and, through blackface, goes
(21:46):
undercover to see what the blackexperience was and wrote about
it.
And I remember that being sotransformative for me and
understanding the extent of theracism that had existed.
And I remember thinking, oh mygoodness, this is just a couple
like I was reading it in the 80sand thinking, oh, my goodness,
this is just a couple decadesago and I had no idea.
(22:06):
And yeah, help Me Remember,help Me Forget.
Is also a story of someonecoming out of slavery I believe
it was, yeah and just hearingabout the horrors and the
tortures that was done.
And these were all presented aswe read them, identifying with
the ones who were beingpersecuted, Identifying with
(22:30):
them and also preparingourselves to suffer with them.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
I mean I think about when you say that I remember
this idea that would sometimesbe mentioned, that like the
importance of memorizing hymns,because if the day would come
that we were in prison and hadno Bible or hymn book, we could
at least sing, and that would bean important thing to have.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Oh, do you know why I know so many Bible verses?
I truly believed they weregoing to come and take our
Bibles and I was going to havethe Bible hidden in my heart so
that when that happened in myheart, yeah, yeah, that when
that happened, I could ensurethat we still had scripture.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
I was convinced of this.
I was 12.
Convinced of this.
Right, oh yeah, oh yeah.
And I think about a book in hissteps, and a lot of these books
were books that were part ofour curriculum, that Christian
Nationals curriculum.
Right, right and His Steps byCharles Sheldon.
It was a novel from way backwhen, but it popularized the
question what would Jesus do?
And we then were around whenall those wristbands were so
(23:46):
popular 20 years ago, but thatwas inspiring readers.
The idea was to inspire readersto take literally the Sermon on
the Mount, literally what wouldJesus do?
And when I think of BishopBuddy's plea for mercy at the
National Cathedral the otherweek on the day of the
(24:10):
inauguration, I mean that's thekind of thing that they're
talking about in this book.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Right, that we turn around and hate on and we
criticize and we judge.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Yeah, and I'm seeing the same kind of voices that
were teaching us that are nowturning around and castigating
her for saying the same thing,for teaching the same thing.
As I think about these things,when we think about the history
of American history as itrelates to immigrants and
(24:43):
refugees, I mean it's a veryspotty history in terms of, you
know, yes, there were lots ofimmigrants and refugees welcome,
but then there were also manythat were turned away.
We would have seen ourselves,you know, in the context we were
brought up and with theinfluences that we were given at
the time.
I mean I remember our churchsponsoring several Romanian
(25:07):
families who came over and werereestablishing lives in the US
and this is after the fall ofthe USSR and so we were
identifying with them andactively, like materially,
supporting them.
And so, while the US historyhas been very spotty because,
like, for example, the US turnedaway ships of Jewish refugees
(25:31):
during World War II, we hadhundreds of years of forced
labor camps in the AmericanSouth, long before Auschwitz was
even dreamed of.
And you know, the GenevaConventions were something that
nations agreed on after WorldWar II and it was a set of
procedures for refugees in thecontext of war or fleeing, you
(25:55):
know, some kind of terriblesituation.
And today, people from CentralAmerica and South America and
Mexico who follow thoseprotocols are being called
lawbreakers, and they're not.
They are merely following theprotocols that were set forward
in the Geneva Convention that USsigned on for, and so the US
(26:18):
has this long history ofbrutality and violence toward
the most vulnerable.
And so, on one hand, I think weshouldn't be surprised that
mainstream Americans supportwhat this administration is
doing to refugees and immigrants, but what disappoints me more
than that is all those who claimto be faithful.
Anabaptists have metaphoricallyparted ways with their
(26:40):
Reformation era ancestors andthe two kingdom theology, and I
think back to the stories ofChristians being martyred in the
Colosseum in Roman times.
It's like they've joined thejeering crowds at the Colosseum.
Make it, make sense.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
I don't think we can make it make sense and I keep
trying to think of ways that wecan just make a difference where
we're at, from following Blackauthors to just going to some
damn museums, like historymuseums will tell you these
(27:17):
stories.
Go to the Holocaust Museum.
Go to them now, while you can,before they're shuttered, yeah,
and I've been very careful aboutfollowing voices that have
different perspectives than whatI do.
And I think something elsethat's so interesting is I've
(27:39):
been often asked whatorganizations you can work with
and the truth is I don't know.
I don't know of organizations.
What I do know is I don't thinkwe go out necessarily searching
for the immigrant who needshelp.
I think we go looking for theindividual who needs help.
(27:59):
I don't care if it's a singlemom, I don't care if it is the
parent who's overwhelmed becausetheir child needs medical care.
Maybe it is the immigrant.
But there's so many ways we canactively get involved.
And I told one friend go to thelibrary, go to the community
(28:24):
park, talk to people and, at theend of the day, always, always,
always, remember that you'renot the hero.
The things these people have togo through is horrible.
I mean they're in a new countryrunning for their lives
oftentimes.
I have friends that were 20minutes from where the bombing
(28:46):
was happening in Ukraine.
This is some serious stuffthey're dealing with.
They don't know the language,but we expect them to understand
the insurance process.
We expect them to understandhealthcare.
We expect them to understandthe school system.
We can't follow ourselves.
We can't Exactly, exactly.
I have spent an entire dayhelping individuals set up
(29:11):
utilities.
How are they supposed to set uputilities for their home?
There's nothing more exhaustingthan going to the doctor with
them and translating and tellingthem what's going on.
It's hard work, but these arethe things I think we need to do
.
I think we need to actively bepart of this.
(29:32):
I'm not convinced that I canchange the broader outside world
.
I don't think we can.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
I don't know, not individually, not as individuals
.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Right, but we can make a difference right in front
of us.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
I agree, and I think that something that can help us
do that better is when we becomeaware of the elitism that so
many of us have.
Just, you know it's, it's theair we breathe and and I think
we have been through a wholehost of ways culture has taught
(30:10):
us to look down on people whoare having a hard time, where
they taught us to blame them,blame the victims.
The American culture has foundso many ways to justify turning
a blind eye to suffering, and Ithink what you're saying is so
important because it's just justopen your eyes.
Open your eyes.
(30:32):
There are needs everywhere andit's about whether we choose to
see them, whether we open oureyes to see them, or if we want
to stick within our comfortableelitist bubble.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Whether we want to stick in our elitist bubble, yes
, but also I think there's acertain level of comfort that we
like to hang on to, and I thinkwe like to think that we are
closer to being in the ranks ofElon Musk than we are to those
who are struggling, when, infact, many of us are one
(31:08):
horrible illness away fromneeding help too.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
I think we are so unaware of how lucky we are
sometimes and we like to saythat we took God on as our
business partner and that wehave followed God's will.
So here we are and I call bullcrap.
We just got damn lucky.
(31:34):
And sure, some of us have madegood decisions, but sometimes
there aren't good decisions tomake.
There aren't good optionsavailable.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Exactly, exactly.
Those of us who were able tomake good decisions were
fortunate to have good options.
Exactly that we could choose.
Exactly, mennonite.
You know Anabaptist history.
Here in the US we have a wholelot more in common with those
(32:03):
who are fleeing persecution andsuffering than those who are
wealthy and comfortable and incontrol.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Yeah, so did you know that the first Mennonites in
Lancaster County were actuallyillegal immigrants?
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Wow, and that was before the Geneva Protocols, so
the Geneva Conventions, whenthose policies were set for
people fleeing persecution.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
So in 1712, ralph Thornsley, who I believe was a
journalist in England, saw anumber of palatins who would
have been Swiss, germans andprobably Mennonites waiting to
come to America and he wrotethey were the most poor and
(32:46):
ragged creatures that he hadever beheld.
Those could easily be ourancestors.
Probably were some of ours.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
And isn't it true that there were a lot of
suspicions of plane groups backat the time?
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah, very A lot of suspicions from the obvious
bringing in infectious diseases.
In the 1700s there was a PAgovernor who was partially
criticized for not sufficientlyquarantining the disease.
New arrivals In 1749, there wasa huge PA election fraud
(33:27):
scandal going on, convinced thatthe election had been rigged in
favor of the immigrants thatwere coming.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Wow, and so that implicated the Amish and
Mennonite or the Anabaptistgroups, right right, actually,
disease.
Were they actually bringingdiseases, or was it a fear?
They were, they were, they were, they actually were, they
actually were.
Yeah, wow, wow.
So we've been there.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
And I wonder if the fact that we have been there
makes us more afraid.
You know, sometimes it doesfeel good to identify with the
rich.
Sometimes it does feel good toidentify with the rich.
Sometimes it does feel good toidentify with power.
It's a lot safer.
Yeah, and it sucks being loweron the pecking order.
It sucks.
But I don't understand how wehold that fear and yet claim to
(34:18):
be good God, fearing people, andrespond so harshly to others.
I don't understand how we getthere Agreed and when we remove
the head covering or whateverexternal item, it is that shaped
us.
But don't deconstruct thisconcept of the headship order or
(34:39):
this hierarchical view of theworld.
I think we end up sliding rightinto Christian nationalism,
which is where we find ourselvestoday.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Right, and where we see folks who were raised and
maybe even taught us theseAnabaptist beliefs about two
kingdom, theology andnon-resistance and all these
things, and yet now we see themaligning more and more with this
Christian nationalist view,which is totally contrary,
(35:09):
totally contrary.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
We have no business crapping on the Latina community
or the Ukrainian people orwhomever.
We have no business doing that.
If we believe that our historymatters and if we believe that
we are pro-life, what we aredoing is so wrong.
(35:33):
I don't know a betterdefinition of sin.
If that's what we're going tosay.
We believe you are literallyharming other humans.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
And calling it good, and that you're doing it in the
name of God, for quote safety.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
And so I think we like this prospect of being
aligned with power, no longerbeing the underdog, and we're
willing to make other people theunderdogs so we can stay here.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Right, we can maintain our position.
So our title today is AMartyr's Mirror to Manifest
Destiny.
And we know what the Martyr'sMirror is.
It's that giant collection ofstories of Christian martyrs,
especially the Anabaptistmartyrs at the time of the
Reformation.
Manifest Destiny is thisAmerican belief that westward
(36:28):
expansion is something Godwanted white people to do,
wiping out entire NativeAmerican populations.
And so we go from thisnon-resistant stance to this God
and country stance ofmanifestesti.
And our subtitle is howAnabaptists Kept the Headship
Order but Lost the Two Kingdoms.
(36:49):
And I think what is interestingis how that hierarchical view
of the world can persist,whether someone is wearing the
external markings of playingcommunities or not.
And those external markings areminor compared to those ideas
(37:11):
that we might hold onto abouthierarchy and some people being
better than others.
And yet, and in that process,we're losing the very thing that
made Anabaptist distinctive.
Which leads us to the questionwithout the external markings,
do Anabaptists even know who wewere and who we are?
Speaker 2 (37:48):
Thank you for spending time with us today.
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
What are your thoughts about college and
recovery from high demandreligion?
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences and we
want to talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atuncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom.
That's uncoveredlifebeyond atgmailcom.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Until next time stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward.
Thank you.
This is Rebecca and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path Along the
way, we've uncovered a fewinsights we want to share with
fellow travelers.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up, we are here to cheeryou on and assure you that the
best is yet to come.
Welcome to Uncovered LifeBeyond.
Hello everyone, welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.
(01:07):
This is Naomi.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
And this is Rebecca.
So it's been a week.
It has been a week, it has beena month, right.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
It feels like five months, yeah, yeah, I don't know
.
I mean I go back and forthbetween just kind of feeling
numb to all the insanity andthen also feeling really, really
angry at, well, lots of people.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Kind of like how in the world did we end up?
Speaker 1 (01:38):
here, here, and I think one of the things that has
had me scratching my head themost, especially in recent years
, is how people who taught mehistoric Anabaptist doctrine and
theology are now identifyingwith Christian nationalist
(02:00):
figures.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
And even the same people who shunned us for
leaving.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Right, right, and it's like, when we removed the
external markers of being plain,that was a greater betrayal
than betraying the two kingdomconcept that is central to
Anabaptist beliefs and theAnabaptist tradition.
(02:26):
Maybe we should talk a littlebit about this, because I know
that the Anabaptist history issomething that, on one hand, we
grew up around, many of us grewup around the martyr's mirror,
but I don't know how much thatknowledge went beyond just kind
of a superficial we werepersecuted, kind of message.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
I think there was that and I also think recently
I've been realizing we all payattention in different ways and
to different things and I wondersometimes if those of us who
paid attention to this type ofthing assumed everyone else was
too Right, right.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
So today we want to try to make sense of this, and
I'm sure we can't do that, wecan't completely do that in the
next 30-45 minutes, but maybe wecan at least start a
conversation and start trying tomake sense of these things.
Maybe it would be helpful tojust set the stage with a little
(03:32):
bit of history of who were theAnabaptists, where did they come
from, what were they about?
And this is from the AnabaptistMennonite Network website and
I'm not familiar with thembeyond this website, but this
tracks with my, this summary,this short history tracks with
(03:53):
my knowledge of it, of themovement.
It says that so Anabaptismemerged on the back of two very
different attempts to bringtransformation to church and
society the ProtestantReformation, which called for
reform in the church, and thePeasants' Movement, calling for
reform in society, and this wasback in the 16th century in
(04:13):
Europe.
So Anabaptism emerged as thesescattered communities of people
seeking alternative strategiesfor reform, and the first
radical step they took was tostart rebaptizing believers.
And these are people who hadbeen baptized into the Catholic
(04:33):
Church as infants.
And what that did is it gotthem onto the roles that would
eventually become the tax rolls,become the tax rolls, and so by
taking baptism, the authorityto baptize, by taking ownership
of that, it was one way ofstepping out of the system of
(04:53):
taxes that was facilitated bythe religious system at the time
, and they also recognized thatthere was no hope for them to
fight back against theauthorities, and so they adopted
this concept of non-resistanceto violence, pacifism, and the
(05:17):
idea was beliefs just they blewthrough Central Europe like
wildfire and it was like thepersecution and the martyrdom of
Anabaptists was kind of.
It offered a showcase of thebrutality of the governments of
(05:42):
the time and the religious orderof the time.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
And I think it's important to note so.
In Europe at this time therewas not a separation of church
and state, so the Catholicchurch was also the government,
and that was a huge part of theAnabaptist movement was the
(06:05):
insistence of the separation ofchurch and state.
But that is also why it'sincorporated in our Constitution
.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Right, right, and this is what came to be known as
the two kingdom theology.
Right, and this idea that thereyou have civil authorities and
then you have religiousauthorities, that there you have
civil authorities and then youhave religious authorities and
the Anabaptists had a front rowseat to seeing the disaster, the
corruption, the devastationthat happens when you combine
(06:34):
church and state.
And this, yeah, becamefoundational then in the US.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
And I think I've had so many people confused when, on
social media, I make commentsas far as it doesn't matter what
the fundamental religion isthat we are trying to make in
power.
Whether it is Catholic, whetherit is Islam, whether it is
Christian, it doesn't matter, itdoes the same damage.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Absolutely, and people get irate.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Exactly, people get irate.
They're like are you comparingChristianity to Islam?
No, what I am comparing is thedamage that the power does Right
.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Right To everyone, the people wielding the power
and the people being harmed byit Right.
Here's a quote from one of theearly Anabaptists back hundreds
of years ago, heinrich Bollinger, and this is quoted.
He's quoted in the Anabaptistdivision and he's explaining the
distinction between the twokingdoms, and he says the
(07:43):
secular kingdom should beseparated from the church, and
no secular ruler should exerciseauthority in the church.
The Lord has commanded simplyto preach the gospel, not to
compel anyone by force to acceptit.
The true church of Christ hasthe characteristic that it
suffers and endures persecution,but does not inflict
persecution upon anyone, and sothis persecution was a major
(08:08):
factor in bringing Anabaptistsnow as Amish and Mennonites to
the US.
I think the first ones cameover maybe in the 1700s.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
I think it was the early 1700s when they started
coming from what I could.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
And then there were multiple waves that came after
that.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
So I mean, when you think about it, anabaptists have
just been in America for 300years.
Right, am I doing wrong?
Speaker 1 (08:38):
math, yeah, something like that.
Yeah or less.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
And we strut around like we own the country, Like
settle down people.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Well, we've been given I say we because I
identify with it culturallywe're given so many passes along
the way.
We were given we could exercisethe belief of non-resistance to
war right.
So there were young men couldbe conscientious objectors and
do alternative service insteadof serving in the military.
(09:09):
They were able to kind of livein their enclaves I mean in
Europe it had been a matter ofsurvival to kind of stick really
close together in rural areas.
But over here it wasaccommodated and it has been
accommodated for hundreds ofyears.
And then even in 1972,wisconsin versus Yoder made it
(09:31):
legal for them to prevent theirchildren from having the culture
to exercise control over theirchildren that parents in the
mainstream couldn't or didn'thave.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
And this was also while we still had Indian
boarding schools.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Right.
So Native American kids werebeing taken from their families,
while Amish and Mennonites wereallowed to not only keep their
children but then also deny themeducation.
So then eventually we move intothe Cold War.
That was the time period afterWorld War II when the US and the
(10:17):
USSR were the two major worldpowers, and they were.
So.
There wasn't an ongoing war, butthere was kind of a.
They were battling for controlof the rest of the world, and
they did that through all kindsof different things.
I mean you have the war inVietnam was a manifestation of
that to some degree, but thenalso how foreign aid was
(10:40):
dispersed as a way to exertcontrol over other countries.
Aid was dispersed as a way toexert control over other
countries.
But the major thing is that wewere all terrified.
I say we were all.
Many people were terrified andcertain that any moment the USSR
was going to invade the US andI know even children in schools
(11:03):
would have drills, air drills,where they would practice
climbing under their desks justin case there would be a threat
of attack.
And this is something that wasa real part of my childhood.
Right, it was a real part.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
My dad would forever go on about the floors of the
Iron Curtain.
Yes, ever go on about thehorrors of the Iron Curtain, and
this is where CAM, christianAid Ministries, got their start.
I knew them as Christian Aidfor Romania and, let's be clear,
they have not always been onthe up and up, but this was
(11:41):
where they got their start andthey would go around to churches
to garnish support, tellingthese horrible stories about
what was happening in Russia,and we were just minutes away.
Some of those darker thingscame out after I was no longer
really tracking there.
I remember hearing whisperseven as a kid whispers about
(12:14):
affairs and inappropriateness.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
No no, no, unbelievable.
Yeah, but I spent my childhoodreading their newsletters, yeah.
And all the stories of peoplestarving in Eastern Europe
because of the communists, fearof communism which was
associated ACE, bce, thecurriculum that was huge, yes,
that we had in school in ourAmish Mennonite school.
(12:40):
John Piper, john MacArthur, allthese guys have had a huge
influence on a lot of thesecommunities.
No-transcript, which is ironicbecause even at the same time,
(13:49):
some of these communities arethe ones who are also doubling
down on the external markers,right, like plain clothing and
all that.
So it's like what theyconnected on was this
persecution complex and thisfear of the outside world that
the emerging religious right andall these evangelical voices
offered.
(14:10):
Right and all these evangelicalvoices offered, but by coming
for that.
They came for that, but thenthey stayed for the
authoritarianism and theChristian nationalism.
And I think we see this in manydifferent ways, but some of
those ways are this sense thatmight makes right, this really
buy into war metaphors, thisblack and white thinking about
(14:30):
you know you're, either you knowyou have the conservative
Americans who love this blackand white thinking about you
know you're, either you know youhave the conservative Americans
who love America and then theliberals who are maybe not even
quite human.
And one way to think of it isthat these influences, these
evangelical influences, werelike a Trojan horse that stole
their children away from theirhistoric faith through the very
(14:51):
avenues they were using tocontrol their children's
opportunities.
And what I'm thinking here islike of the Christian schools
that were using Baptistcurricula, which is very
patriotic, and all these othervoices as well who are very
nationalistic.
And so, at the very time thatthey kept their children out of
public schools and in their ownschools, then turn around and
(15:14):
gave them this Christian, verypatriotic curriculum, that
curriculum ends up being thething that pulls their kids away
from the historic faith.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
That makes sense, and I think it's also important to
point out, like I think that'swhat made Dobson so effective.
You have now parents who areafraid, and so when people are
afraid, they're looking forformulas to keep everybody safe.
And Dobson Pearls, all thesepeople were saying well, do it
(15:51):
this way, Gothard.
They're giving out formulasthat if you do this and follow
God's plan and follow God's will, you'll be able to keep your
children.
But underneath that was a plan,and I think we're seeing a lot
of that today.
Was this plan to create aChristian army to work their way
(16:15):
into the government?
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Right, right.
And it's right, because it'snot that the Anabaptists were
necessarily seeking to controlgovernment, it's that they were
drawn on board, they werebrought into this larger
Christian nationalist effort tocontrol the government.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
I think our parents, to a point, came to that place
from a very well-intended place,Sincere yeah for sure, they had
reasons to be afraid.
They were familiar with thesestories.
They had reasons to be afraid,they were familiar with these
stories.
And so, yeah, you give someonea formula, you give someone
(17:05):
who's afraid a formula, and it'svery easy to buy into that.
And I so often think about itwas a church pastor in this
community who was beingostracized for being supportive
of the LGBTQ community and Iasked him how that's working for
him and he just said you can'tlead from fear.
You cannot lead from fear.
And I think about that so oftenand I think maybe that's a huge
(17:29):
piece of what our parentspossibly missed.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
They were leading from fear, absolutely,
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
And it's so sad to see what's happening today
regarding immigration.
I am so upset what's happeningwith immigration, but the church
has come so far for protectingthe abuse within their own pews
and protecting their women andtheir kids in their own churches
(17:58):
.
How can we expect the church toprotect immigrants or even care
about immigrants?
It feels like what they careabout the most right now is
power.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Right, right and that , if might, makes right, which
is what the authority teachingsboil down to.
That's yeah, that tracks.
That makes sense.
So as we're hearing aboutwhat's happening with
immigration on the news and theway that refugees and immigrants
(18:31):
are being misrepresented, mymind keeps going to books that I
read as a child, like I keepthinking about the Hiding Place
and how the Ten Boom family hidJews in their attic during World
War II and then eventuallyended up going to the camps
themselves because of doing that, and I think about how this was
(18:58):
praised when I was a kid.
And yet what I'm hearing nowsounds a whole lot more like
Nazi rhetoric about Jews.
That's what I'm hearing aboutimmigrants.
And I also think about anotherbook, and I started making a
list here and I'll mention a fewof them and then maybe we can
(19:18):
put the full list in our shownotes or something like that.
But I thought of Henry's Red Seaby Barbara Schmucker.
The story relates a dramaticand courageous story of refugees
from Russia following World WarII.
This is a story of suspenseAmerican soldiers, russian
officers and a midnight trainride in darkened boxcars.
Here is danger, escape anddeliverance an actual event that
(19:40):
happened in Berlin in 1946.
And this is about Mennoniterefugees, who eventually wound
up in South America, I think,but this was a staple in our
background and it's published byMennonite Publishers.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
And these books would have all been both on our
family bookshelf but also likein the school library.
These were the books we wereraised on.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Right, right.
What are some books that yousee in this list that ring a
bell for you?
Speaker 2 (20:11):
What are some books that you see in this list that
ring a bell for you, a Lanternin the Window.
Help Me Remember, help MeForget Martyr's Mirror,
pilgrim's Progress, martyr ofthe Catacombs God Knows my Size
Tortured for Christ, like allthese books.
Living for Jesus Behind theIron Curtain.
Tortured for his faith, likeall of them were.
(20:35):
We were raised on this.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Right and I had to think of a book like the Family
Nobody Wanted.
And this is not a well-knownbook, but it was like this
paperback book that was probablypublished I don't know at the
70s at the latest, but it wasabout a family who adopted about
12 children and I read it.
(20:59):
I reread it as an adult andthere was.
I realized how I could become ableeding heart liberal because
of the way it talked about theracism that their family
experienced and this is midcentury and the assumptions that
their family experienced.
This is mid-century and theassumptions that were made about
their children of differentraces, and they were adamantly
(21:21):
anti-racist.
But it made me aware of howpervasive this was.
And another book that I somehowgot a hold of was Black Like Me,
and this is a book that hasbeen critiqued for very good
reasons.
But it's a story of a whitejournalist who goes into the
South, I believe in the late 50s, and, through blackface, goes
(21:46):
undercover to see what the blackexperience was and wrote about
it.
And I remember that being sotransformative for me and
understanding the extent of theracism that had existed.
And I remember thinking, oh mygoodness, this is just a couple
like I was reading it in the 80sand thinking, oh, my goodness,
this is just a couple decadesago and I had no idea.
(22:06):
And yeah, help Me Remember,help Me Forget.
Is also a story of someonecoming out of slavery I believe
it was, yeah and just hearingabout the horrors and the
tortures that was done.
And these were all presented aswe read them, identifying with
the ones who were beingpersecuted, Identifying with
(22:30):
them and also preparingourselves to suffer with them.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
I mean I think about when you say that I remember
this idea that would sometimesbe mentioned, that like the
importance of memorizing hymns,because if the day would come
that we were in prison and hadno Bible or hymn book, we could
at least sing, and that would bean important thing to have.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Oh, do you know why I know so many Bible verses?
I truly believed they weregoing to come and take our
Bibles and I was going to havethe Bible hidden in my heart so
that when that happened in myheart, yeah, yeah, that when
that happened, I could ensurethat we still had scripture.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
I was convinced of this.
I was 12.
Convinced of this.
Right, oh yeah, oh yeah.
And I think about a book in hissteps, and a lot of these books
were books that were part ofour curriculum, that Christian
Nationals curriculum.
Right, right and His Steps byCharles Sheldon.
It was a novel from way backwhen, but it popularized the
question what would Jesus do?
And we then were around whenall those wristbands were so
(23:46):
popular 20 years ago, but thatwas inspiring readers.
The idea was to inspire readersto take literally the Sermon on
the Mount, literally what wouldJesus do?
And when I think of BishopBuddy's plea for mercy at the
National Cathedral the otherweek on the day of the
(24:10):
inauguration, I mean that's thekind of thing that they're
talking about in this book.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Right, that we turn around and hate on and we
criticize and we judge.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Yeah, and I'm seeing the same kind of voices that
were teaching us that are nowturning around and castigating
her for saying the same thing,for teaching the same thing.
As I think about these things,when we think about the history
of American history as itrelates to immigrants and
(24:43):
refugees, I mean it's a veryspotty history in terms of, you
know, yes, there were lots ofimmigrants and refugees welcome,
but then there were also manythat were turned away.
We would have seen ourselves,you know, in the context we were
brought up and with theinfluences that we were given at
the time.
I mean I remember our churchsponsoring several Romanian
(25:07):
families who came over and werereestablishing lives in the US
and this is after the fall ofthe USSR and so we were
identifying with them andactively, like materially,
supporting them.
And so, while the US historyhas been very spotty because,
like, for example, the US turnedaway ships of Jewish refugees
(25:31):
during World War II, we hadhundreds of years of forced
labor camps in the AmericanSouth, long before Auschwitz was
even dreamed of.
And you know, the GenevaConventions were something that
nations agreed on after WorldWar II and it was a set of
procedures for refugees in thecontext of war or fleeing, you
(25:55):
know, some kind of terriblesituation.
And today, people from CentralAmerica and South America and
Mexico who follow thoseprotocols are being called
lawbreakers, and they're not.
They are merely following theprotocols that were set forward
in the Geneva Convention that USsigned on for, and so the US
(26:18):
has this long history ofbrutality and violence toward
the most vulnerable.
And so, on one hand, I think weshouldn't be surprised that
mainstream Americans supportwhat this administration is
doing to refugees and immigrants, but what disappoints me more
than that is all those who claimto be faithful.
Anabaptists have metaphoricallyparted ways with their
(26:40):
Reformation era ancestors andthe two kingdom theology, and I
think back to the stories ofChristians being martyred in the
Colosseum in Roman times.
It's like they've joined thejeering crowds at the Colosseum.
Make it, make sense.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
I don't think we can make it make sense and I keep
trying to think of ways that wecan just make a difference where
we're at, from following Blackauthors to just going to some
damn museums, like historymuseums will tell you these
(27:17):
stories.
Go to the Holocaust Museum.
Go to them now, while you can,before they're shuttered, yeah,
and I've been very careful aboutfollowing voices that have
different perspectives than whatI do.
And I think something elsethat's so interesting is I've
(27:39):
been often asked whatorganizations you can work with
and the truth is I don't know.
I don't know of organizations.
What I do know is I don't thinkwe go out necessarily searching
for the immigrant who needshelp.
I think we go looking for theindividual who needs help.
(27:59):
I don't care if it's a singlemom, I don't care if it is the
parent who's overwhelmed becausetheir child needs medical care.
Maybe it is the immigrant.
But there's so many ways we canactively get involved.
And I told one friend go to thelibrary, go to the community
(28:24):
park, talk to people and, at theend of the day, always, always,
always, remember that you'renot the hero.
The things these people have togo through is horrible.
I mean they're in a new countryrunning for their lives
oftentimes.
I have friends that were 20minutes from where the bombing
(28:46):
was happening in Ukraine.
This is some serious stuffthey're dealing with.
They don't know the language,but we expect them to understand
the insurance process.
We expect them to understandhealthcare.
We expect them to understandthe school system.
We can't follow ourselves.
We can't Exactly, exactly.
I have spent an entire dayhelping individuals set up
(29:11):
utilities.
How are they supposed to set uputilities for their home?
There's nothing more exhaustingthan going to the doctor with
them and translating and tellingthem what's going on.
It's hard work, but these arethe things I think we need to do
.
I think we need to actively bepart of this.
(29:32):
I'm not convinced that I canchange the broader outside world
.
I don't think we can.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
I don't know, not individually, not as individuals
.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Right, but we can make a difference right in front
of us.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
I agree, and I think that something that can help us
do that better is when we becomeaware of the elitism that so
many of us have.
Just, you know it's, it's theair we breathe and and I think
we have been through a wholehost of ways culture has taught
(30:10):
us to look down on people whoare having a hard time, where
they taught us to blame them,blame the victims.
The American culture has foundso many ways to justify turning
a blind eye to suffering, and Ithink what you're saying is so
important because it's just justopen your eyes.
Open your eyes.
(30:32):
There are needs everywhere andit's about whether we choose to
see them, whether we open oureyes to see them, or if we want
to stick within our comfortableelitist bubble.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Whether we want to stick in our elitist bubble, yes
, but also I think there's acertain level of comfort that we
like to hang on to, and I thinkwe like to think that we are
closer to being in the ranks ofElon Musk than we are to those
who are struggling, when, infact, many of us are one
(31:08):
horrible illness away fromneeding help too.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
I think we are so unaware of how lucky we are
sometimes and we like to saythat we took God on as our
business partner and that wehave followed God's will.
So here we are and I call bullcrap.
We just got damn lucky.
(31:34):
And sure, some of us have madegood decisions, but sometimes
there aren't good decisions tomake.
There aren't good optionsavailable.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Exactly, exactly.
Those of us who were able tomake good decisions were
fortunate to have good options.
Exactly that we could choose.
Exactly, mennonite.
You know Anabaptist history.
Here in the US we have a wholelot more in common with those
(32:03):
who are fleeing persecution andsuffering than those who are
wealthy and comfortable and incontrol.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Yeah, so did you know that the first Mennonites in
Lancaster County were actuallyillegal immigrants?
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Wow, and that was before the Geneva Protocols, so
the Geneva Conventions, whenthose policies were set for
people fleeing persecution.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
So in 1712, ralph Thornsley, who I believe was a
journalist in England, saw anumber of palatins who would
have been Swiss, germans andprobably Mennonites waiting to
come to America and he wrotethey were the most poor and
(32:46):
ragged creatures that he hadever beheld.
Those could easily be ourancestors.
Probably were some of ours.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
And isn't it true that there were a lot of
suspicions of plane groups backat the time?
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah, very A lot of suspicions from the obvious
bringing in infectious diseases.
In the 1700s there was a PAgovernor who was partially
criticized for not sufficientlyquarantining the disease.
New arrivals In 1749, there wasa huge PA election fraud
(33:27):
scandal going on, convinced thatthe election had been rigged in
favor of the immigrants thatwere coming.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Wow, and so that implicated the Amish and
Mennonite or the Anabaptistgroups, right right, actually,
disease.
Were they actually bringingdiseases, or was it a fear?
They were, they were, they were, they actually were, they
actually were.
Yeah, wow, wow.
So we've been there.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
And I wonder if the fact that we have been there
makes us more afraid.
You know, sometimes it doesfeel good to identify with the
rich.
Sometimes it does feel good toidentify with the rich.
Sometimes it does feel good toidentify with power.
It's a lot safer.
Yeah, and it sucks being loweron the pecking order.
It sucks.
But I don't understand how wehold that fear and yet claim to
(34:18):
be good God, fearing people, andrespond so harshly to others.
I don't understand how we getthere Agreed and when we remove
the head covering or whateverexternal item, it is that shaped
us.
But don't deconstruct thisconcept of the headship order or
(34:39):
this hierarchical view of theworld.
I think we end up sliding rightinto Christian nationalism,
which is where we find ourselvestoday.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Right, and where we see folks who were raised and
maybe even taught us theseAnabaptist beliefs about two
kingdom, theology andnon-resistance and all these
things, and yet now we see themaligning more and more with this
Christian nationalist view,which is totally contrary,
(35:09):
totally contrary.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
We have no business crapping on the Latina community
or the Ukrainian people orwhomever.
We have no business doing that.
If we believe that our historymatters and if we believe that
we are pro-life, what we aredoing is so wrong.
(35:33):
I don't know a betterdefinition of sin.
If that's what we're going tosay.
We believe you are literallyharming other humans.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
And calling it good, and that you're doing it in the
name of God, for quote safety.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
And so I think we like this prospect of being
aligned with power, no longerbeing the underdog, and we're
willing to make other people theunderdogs so we can stay here.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Right, we can maintain our position.
So our title today is AMartyr's Mirror to Manifest
Destiny.
And we know what the Martyr'sMirror is.
It's that giant collection ofstories of Christian martyrs,
especially the Anabaptistmartyrs at the time of the
Reformation.
Manifest Destiny is thisAmerican belief that westward
(36:28):
expansion is something Godwanted white people to do,
wiping out entire NativeAmerican populations.
And so we go from thisnon-resistant stance to this God
and country stance ofmanifestesti.
And our subtitle is howAnabaptists Kept the Headship
Order but Lost the Two Kingdoms.
(36:49):
And I think what is interestingis how that hierarchical view
of the world can persist,whether someone is wearing the
external markings of playingcommunities or not.
And those external markings areminor compared to those ideas
(37:11):
that we might hold onto abouthierarchy and some people being
better than others.
And yet, and in that process,we're losing the very thing that
made Anabaptist distinctive.
Which leads us to the questionwithout the external markings,
do Anabaptists even know who wewere and who we are?
Speaker 2 (37:48):
Thank you for spending time with us today.
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
What are your thoughts about college and
recovery from high demandreligion?
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences and we
want to talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atuncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom.
That's uncoveredlifebeyond atgmailcom.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Until next time stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward.
Thank you.
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