February 16, 2025 • 61 mins
This episode is a call to reframe our past experiences in high-demand religious communities (especially those of Anabaptist origin) as preparation for meaningful action in our world today. Hosts Naomi and Rebecca explore the significance of core beliefs over outward symbols, advocating for a reclaiming of personal values and the potential for community engagement.
• The incongruity of Christian nationalism and historic Anabaptist beliefs
• Recalling the positive qualities of Plain communities
• How resources from past experiences can be relevant in our lives today
• The tremendous power of nonviolent resistance in social change
• Deploying our communal networks and mutual aid in precarious times
• The significance of empathy and kindness in human connections
Links to Sources and Resources
"The Success of Nonviolent Civil Resistance" by Erica Chenoweth
Chapter 9 The Rhetoric of Agitation and Control: An Interface
The Sword and Trumpet Bookstore
Janna Hunter-Bowman on Anabaptist Nonresistance
Letter from Birmingham Jail (1963)
Historical Context of Letter from Birmingham Jail (1963)
Danielle Bayard Jackson on building community
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
This is.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Rebecca, and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path Along the
way, we've uncovered a fewinsights we want to share with
fellow travelers.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up, we are here to cheeryou on and assure you that the
best is yet to come.
Welcome to Uncovered LifeBeyond.
Hello everyone, Welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.
(01:07):
This is Naomi and this isRebecca.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
So after our conversation last week we kind
of realized we had more to say,didn't we?
Yeah, yeah.
So we ended the conversationwith the question do we know who
we are?
Do Anabaptists know who theyeven are?
And maybe, specifically afterthose of us who have left the
(01:35):
conservative part of it, do weknow who we are when we don't
have the outward symbols?
Like, sometimes I think we kindof get lost in that the outward
symbols defined so much aboutwho we are.
We knew who went to what churchbased on how we dressed, and
sometimes I think it's reallyeasy to get lost when you don't
(01:56):
have that.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
I agree and I think that so often, or at least in my
experience, that was seen asbeing the real plain people.
And yet, when we look back atsome of those core beliefs that
made the Anabaptist, anabaptisthad very little to do with that.
It had nothing to do with that.
(02:18):
It was much more aboutreligious belief and faith being
a matter of an individual'sconscience, not something that's
imposed by an outside authority.
We were talking a lot aboutpacifism or non-resistance to
violence, and more of thosereally central ideas that so
(02:40):
often seem lost from a lot ofexpressions of Anabaptism today.
And while many of us who haveleft the tradition look back and
lament what we see as the lossof some of the best parts, it
occurred to me that there arestill elements of that tradition
(03:02):
that we have that can beresources for us, even as we
move beyond the tradition,resources that can allow us to
make really valuablecontributions to whatever
community we find ourselves intoday.
And as I was thinking about thismore, I thought you know we
need to talk about this, andespecially when there are many
(03:25):
of us who have left not just aplain Anabaptist setting but any
kind of a high-demand religionand we may have missed out on
educational opportunities, wemight have missed out on all
kinds of pop culture, and whilethose losses are real, I think
at times like these it can bereally valuable to think about
(03:48):
what we do have and make themost of the resources and the
skills and the knowledge that wedo have, because while we
weren't getting that formaleducation or making those career
advancements or whatever itmight be, we were learning
something and we were gaining acertain kind of experience and I
think it can be very hopeful totake stock of those and think
(04:12):
about those contributions thatfolks who have made this shift
very likely can contribute.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
I agree, and I think sometimes leaving or making
changes holds a lot of tension,and you know this analogy of
when you are broken.
It gives you a time and a spaceto pick up the pieces you want
and put them back together, andI think perhaps some of us might
(04:44):
find ourselves kind of in thatspace.
We don't really know who weidentify with, but there's
pieces that are certainlyimportant and valuable and it's
created who we are, and I thinkgiving yourself space to do this
type of thing is redemptive andit allows you to tap into those
skills that we do have.
There's been times where I feltI had more in common with the
(05:07):
trad wives that we kind of rollour eyes about than I want to
have.
It is still good and valuableskills, and I think there's
skills that we have that gobeyond just work.
There's skills in the way welearn how to think about things
and how we learn to organize,and I think it's exciting that
(05:31):
we can bring that to the table.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Absolutely, and one of the things that distinguishes
us from trad wives is maybethat we are using them for
progressive causes.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Yeah, you know it's annoying.
No one pays me for what I know,it seems.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
But anyway, that's okay.
So nonviolence was somethingthat we had talked about a lot,
and I think that's a distinctivefeature of Anabaptist movements
, and every few years I teach aclass on writing a social action
.
We study grassroots socialmovements, social justice
(06:07):
movements, including the civilrights movement, and nonviolence
has been such an importantpiece of so many of those
successful movements.
And in fact, scholars likeErica Chenoweth and I'll link to
her TED Talk in the show notestalk about how nonviolent social
(06:29):
movements have a better successrate at bringing broad changes
to countries than violentuprisings do.
They're not always successful,but they have a greater chance
of being successful, and so Ithink there's a lot of power,
potential for power, innonviolent work that we do,
(06:52):
especially in a country thatessentially sees violence as a
good, as something to entertainus and as something that holds
power.
Well, it holds power and it'stherefore justified yeah, it
doesn't matter who gets in itsway.
And, to that end, a book that Iwould recommend anyone who's
(07:13):
interested in thinking aboutthese kinds of things and
thinking about being active inany kind of community organizing
, the rhetoric of agitation andcontrol is one that has been
really helpful for me inunderstanding kind of the
different layers of it, how yougradually build power.
It maps out both how movementsadvance and then also the kinds
(07:37):
of responses that they typicallyrun into from the powers that
be, and it just gives a helpfulframe of reference for thinking
about these kinds of things, andI will link to one of the
chapters that happened to be afree PDF online and recommend it
for anybody who's interested insomething like that.
For all our background inAnabaptism and non-resistance,
(08:02):
so few of us have any experiencein using it to really bring
about change in the world today,and I think there's a lot of
untapped potential there.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Well, and when you think about the work of Jesus on
earth, I mean that epitomizesthe work of a non-resistant
leader and I always kind ofchuckle.
I was ranting to Matt aboutthis the other evening.
Every so often you'll see, youknow, usually on my feet at some
preacher trying to prove thatJesus was not wimpy.
(08:36):
I mean he turned over the youknow tables in the temple and
I'm like he was turning overyour tables.
You're right.
And since when do we thinknon-resistance is wimpy Like
that?
They have to argue that the wayJesus lived his life here on
(08:58):
earth wasn't wimpy.
To me is always such a puzzle.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Well, if you're looking for reasons to exercise
power and brute force, kind oftracks.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Well, and I always want to ask the question when I
see that what table specificallyare you thinking need to be
turned over, please?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
please, please, ask that the next time you see that
and then report back to us.
Oh yeah, I would love to seethe response.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
It makes no sense in my brain.
I don't understand it.
The fear, the literal fear thatit feels like so many hold, and
particularly white men hold,when it comes to being seen as
compassionate, humble, holdingempathy, and they connect that
(09:49):
to wimpy, I just I don'tunderstand.
And I think today there are alot of what seems like loud
voices, and there's some in theAnabaptist circles that would
say, or at least present theidea, that to them
non-resistance is just simplyrefusing to go to war or maybe
(10:13):
take legal action against aperson.
I think that is a big.
Maybe it really would dependhow much money is at stake,
trust me on this one.
But they would see that more astheir spiritual stance but not
a political one.
And I'm always kind ofconcerned when I see these same
people pro-gun.
(10:35):
I'm like, do you know what thatmeans when you hold that?
Speaker 2 (10:39):
What if we, instead of calling them guns, just
talked about handheld killingmachines?
Right, right, how might thatchange the conversation?
Speaker 1 (10:48):
And it never makes sense to me when it's Anabaptist
voices that are pushing this.
But yeah, many of these peopledo not.
Many of these leaders seem tonot feel that in any way should
non-resistance be a politicalstance.
In fact, I'm always againpuzzled by the argument that,
(11:11):
well, we can't expect thegovernment to operate according
to our values.
And that gets said when ICEcomes along and takes away
immigration and does violencethere.
But at the same time, they'rethe first to get in line at the
(11:32):
voting booth when it comes toquote putting prayer back into
schools or anti-abortion or whathave you.
They're the first ones there.
They're the first ones arguingthat we need a Christian nation.
You can't have it both ways.
Like you pick a side, like Ireally don't care what side you
(11:53):
pick here, but you need to picka side.
At least be consistent, right,and if anyone is interested, the
sword andet.
And I think we had thisdistributed back at Shady Grove
back in the day, didn't we?
Speaker 2 (12:10):
I don't remember it, but it's possible.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Maybe it was something I would have been
introduced to here in Ohio.
But I mean a quick peek attheir website and I recognize
some of the names there.
But a quick peek at theirwebsite and I recognize some of
the names there, but a quickpeek at the website and the
books they sell I thought waskind of concerning A lot of
Calvinist influence which to meCalvinist is kind of problematic
(12:37):
.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Well, it blows my mind because I just remember
growing up we were adamantly notCalvinist, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Yeah, yeah, calvinist to me is really problematic,
but there's like Christianityand wokeness, how the social
justice movement is hijackingthe gospel and the way to stop
it.
And this is Owen StrachanActually, I think it's
pronounced Stratton Owen-Stratton Okay, I'm not familiar
with that name.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
I'm pretty sure that's how it's pronounced, the
title sounds provocative.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Right like like this is what we're introducing or
promoting, and why socialjustice is not biblical justice,
an urgent appeal to fellowChristians in a time of social
crisis.
And that author is Scott DavidAllen I don't know that name,
but as you kind of leaf throughthat, there's a lot of Calvinist
influence and I'm just reallykind of curious about that.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Well, and those names are also associated with
Christian nationalism Exactly,and I don't know how we
(13:58):
reconcile that with Anabaptistfaith.
I don't have the exact words,but the idea is that they are
holding true and resistingchange and yet they are
promoting Protestant teachingsthat run contrary to poor
historic beliefs.
Right, and it's just.
(14:21):
It's so interesting to me thatthe ones claiming to be those
traditionalists, claiming tosave Anabaptists from falling
into doctrinal error, are theones who are actively stepping
away from historic beliefs andembracing Protestant, calvinist,
christian nationalist ideas.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
And I think we should be very clear.
So Anabaptist mission effortsstarted way back in the day as
service efforts.
So the goal here was to meetpeople's basic needs, and this
was long before it became athing about church planting and
recruiting new members.
The Anabaptists knew how to seea need and meet it, and quietly
(15:01):
see a need and meet it, or atleast become involved within the
need.
And it concerns me.
I feel like today there's thisnarrative and this is not
exclusive to Anabaptist churchesbut there's this narrative that
the important work gets done onthe mission field or you need
to give to organizations andthey'll give it back to the
(15:21):
community, or you know you needto give to organizations and
they'll give it back to thecommunity and they'll, you know,
ensure that it gets given tothe correct people, so that you
know funds aren't wasted, when,in reality, when you look at
church budgets, it isfrightening how little money
gets put back into the community.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
It's incredibly inefficient.
The system is incrediblyinefficient.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
It's incredibly inefficient.
The system is incrediblyinefficient.
Have flashy and have power andhave status is going to be far
more important than it is to sitwith the homeless person or to
help the immigrant get to thedoctor.
I think we might maybe run intosome of that, and I just always
think about how amazing itwould be when or if we would
have churches who applaudmembers, who invest within the
(16:30):
community, who develop thoserelationships, who the
congregation knows that ifthere's a doctor bill that needs
to get paid, all they need todo is contact the church office
and they'll figure it out.
That to me would be like suchan amazing form of community,
but it seems like most churchesdo the exact opposite.
(16:52):
In fact, if you know of achurch that does this, let me
know.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Right, and there's a message that, instead of
advocating for justice, weshould just fall in line.
There's this trust in the powerstructures of the world
patriarchy, capitalism,colonialism, right All without
maybe not explicitly, maybe, butmaybe not explicitly recognized
(17:19):
as being ordained of God andtherefore need to be respected
and enforced, by violence ifnecessary.
And so, and these are, even if,say, a traditional Anabaptist
church is not teaching thatspecifically, those are the
ideas that are present in someof those names we were talking
about just a minute ago, and Ithink this is very real for a
(17:42):
lot of other churches too,outside the Anabaptist circles.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
And you know this is a little bit of a bunny trail
and we can delete it if we needto, but I think it is
fascinating to think about themany ways or the many forms of
violence that were part of ourheritage.
The violence and brutality ofthe crucifixion is glorified.
(18:08):
The discipline is violent, theway many people experience their
spankings and discipline aschildren.
That's violent Within thecongregation if someone errs
Within the congregation.
If someone errs,excommunicating them and just
throwing them out of the homesometimes is an act of violence.
(18:32):
So I think in some ways Iwonder how much of that has made
us we don't cringe when we seeviolence happening than in other
areas.
We're cozying up to it.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
It seems almost normal, I agree, many from this
background who may or may notstill identify as Mennonite or
Anabaptist or Amish, but who areasking questions about some of
these assumptions right and someof these stances on justice
(19:18):
issues and are pushing backagainst them in very real ways
you know it's funny against themin very real ways, you know
it's funny Sometimes.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
I think the conservative Anabaptists who
leave might have the most traumato work through and get some of
the.
They often get a bad rap.
I mean, I think when you leavethe Amish it's like, well, you
know, that's an Amish, becausethere's a certain sense of
novelty there.
Those who grew up with aliberal, mennonite background
(19:51):
tend to have a little lesstrauma.
From what I've observed, mm.
Hmm, there is no one who knowshow to deconstruct and honestly
navigate issues like aconservative Anabaptist person
and I am so excited about theconversations that are happening
(20:13):
around this of Gothard, ofPiper, of all those influences
that we had and I think when yougo through that experience, all
of a sudden your value changes.
You can then more easily seeyourself in other people, which
(20:35):
I think offers dignity.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Are you saying like we see what we have in common
with others?
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Because I think, with you know, coming out of a high
demand religious setting,there's often been a lot of
emphasis put on being specialand being unique, on being set
apart.
Set apart the elect all that.
And when you deconstruct fromthat and suddenly you realize,
oh, I'm nothing special, I'mjust like everybody else, and
(21:05):
that's very freeing, even as itis disorienting.
But, yeah, it allows us toconnect with people around us
with a degree of authenticitythat you cannot have when you're
maintaining this facade ofperfection.
Right, I think what reallydistinguishes these emerging
(21:32):
voices is that they really docare about human suffering in
our communities and defendingthe dignity of all people, and
they see the value of diversity,equity and inclusion.
And, whether they identify asAnabaptist or not, or even as
Christian or not, they arereally embodying the values that
, well, I thought we werebrought up with, but the ones
(21:55):
that I thought we were supposedto embrace but seem to be
falling by the wayside.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
I also see this group of people very intentionally
trying to separate themselvesfrom toxic power structures that
exist in a way that seems tofurther consolidate power, which
again reminds me so much of whythe Anabaptist group started in
(22:22):
the first place.
They were concerned about thepower the Catholic and the
Lutheran church held and theydidn't want to support those
types of power structures.
They believed in separation ofchurch and state, and to me that
is so exciting, like itenergizes me.
(22:43):
But I think there's alsosometimes the sense of feeling
disempowered and this sense ofnot knowing how to be part of
the solution.
It's one thing to criticize,but it's another thing to be
like okay, so, so how do we fixthis?
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Right, and they might already be exhausted from doing
work behind the scenes or justfrom surviving.
I think there's a lot of usthat are between work and taking
care of families and maybegoing to school and whatever
else.
There's just not a lot ofbandwidth left over, and folks
(23:20):
in this situation, like Imentioned earlier, might feel
unqualified because they don'thave formal education or they
don't have much of a backgroundin social movements or being
really involved in volunteeringin the community.
So many of us, especially thoseof us socialized as girls and
(23:41):
women in high demand, religioussettings are conditioned to
self-doubt, right?
We're taught to not trustourselves.
We're taught not to takeinitiative, to hold ourselves
back and let others take thelead, and so when we have all
that baggage hanging on to us,it can be hard to know where to
(24:03):
even start.
You know like, even if we arephilosophically making these
shifts, it can be hard to knowhow do we live them out.
I saw a really inspiringexample of one of these voices
(24:25):
this is not someone I knowpersonally, but I came across
her post on Facebook who iscalling Anabaptists to this
nonviolent tradition, and she istalking about it in the context
of the political climate todayand her closing line is over the
years, anabaptists have oftenbeen absorbed into the fog of
nationalisms rather than findingclarity and courage to exercise
(24:47):
nonconformity.
How are often people who wantto hold onto their hate and
still feel like good people?
But kindness and justice don'twork that way.
Reverend Dr Martin Luther KingJr, the white moderate who is
more devoted to order than tojustice, who prefers a negative
(25:26):
peace, which is the absence oftension, to a positive peace,
which is the presence of justice.
So this is a quote fromReverend Dr Martin Luther King
Jr's letter from a Birminghamjail.
This is something he wrote in1963.
He had gone to Birmingham,alabama, to lead a desegregation
(25:51):
campaign.
There had been, I believe itwas, like a group of eight
clergymen white clergymen whohad written an open letter
basically telling him to standdown.
And he's sitting there in jailafter being arrested for the
peaceful protest.
And he responds to them and Ithink these words.
(26:12):
It's about six pages long.
It's pretty lengthy, so I won'tread the whole thing, but there
was a passage that I thinkspeaks so clearly to what we're
talking about here and isrelevant for our time.
He says there was a time whenthe church was very powerful and
the time when the earlyChristians rejoiced at being
deemed worthy to suffer for whatthey believed.
(26:33):
He goes on to talk about thetime of the Roman Colosseum and
the kind of martyrdom that earlyChristians experienced.
He goes on to say things aredifferent now.
So often the contemporary churchis a weak, ineffectual voice
with an uncertain sound.
So often it is an arch defenderof the status quo.
Far from being disturbed by thepresence of the church, the
(26:56):
power structure of the averagecommunity is consoled by the
church's silence and even vocalsanction of things as they are.
But the judgment of?
Consoled by the church'ssilence and even vocal sanction
of things as they are.
But the judgment of God is uponthe church as never before.
If today's church does notrecapture the sacrificial spirit
of the early church, it losesits authenticity, forfeits the
loyalty of millions and isdismissed as an irrelevant
(27:19):
social club with no meaning forthe 20th century.
Every day I meet young peoplewhose disappointment with the
church has turned into outrightdisgust.
Boy, those are heavy words.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
And to be true, I mean, that's where
deconstruction started.
For me, that disgust he talksabout that's where
deconstruction starts, and I amalways surprised when the church
seems puzzled or confused bythis and control and in books
(28:07):
like that that talk about thepotential power of organized
social movements, and in anonviolent way.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Two factors really stand out to me as things that
we have many of us from thesekinds of backgrounds have that
can be really really empowering,and one of those is social
networks.
Local to national, we have acollection of close and loose
ties and social media has reallyfacilitated this so that
(28:34):
someone that we might not knowvery well, but we have run into
them on social media enough tohave a frame of reference,
really could allow us to worktogether and leverage that
connection at some point downthe road.
We also have a deep culturalunderstanding of mutual aid and
(28:55):
reciprocity.
Like we've grown up with workdays, we've grown up with this
kind of thing where thecommunity gets together and
everybody pitches in, or atleast I did.
I don't know.
I guess plain churches still dothese kinds of things.
I hope they do.
It's one of the best parts ofthe culture, but I think that's
a real, that's a very specialgift in the context of American
(29:19):
hyper individualism.
It's something that we whatwe've been brought up in all our
lives we just well like a flockof birds, a flock of crows.
You know, nobody's actuallyleading that flock, but somehow
it moves together Right.
And there's some of that sameelement, I think, here, when we,
(29:42):
from little on up, are familiarwith these kinds of community
efforts.
And this is even withoutmentioning all the practical
skills that many of us learnedgrowing up, potatoes and frugal
living, knowing how to grow agarden or animals for food, how
(30:05):
to preserve food, sowing andjust so many more skills that so
many of us grew up with.
And maybe, if you're like me,there've been times when I've
hesitated talking about thosethings because I don't want to
be associated with a trad wifeimage.
But, as we said before, theseare really useful skills and,
(30:27):
given the events of the pastcouple of weeks, with programs
being cut, programs that ourpeople are dependent on for
survival, it is not unreasonableto expect that we're going to
be seeing a mushrooming of needsand impoverishment in our
communities unlike anythingwe've seen before, and I think
(30:48):
these skills and these abilitiescan be more important than ever
.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
The other thing that I think we often forget and this
is kind of going back to thesocial networks those of us in
the Amish Mennonite culture havemany ways of knowing who your
great aunt's cousin is, andthere's family connections that
run really deep too, and so Ithink sometimes we feel like we
(31:19):
have lost so much of thenetworking that oftentimes
leaders talk about, when inactuality, just the fact that we
know who our cousins are, whotheir cousins are, provides such
a deep social network, and Ithink it's really important.
(31:40):
So I think, when we talk aboutfeeling disempowered or
empowered, something I havefound really helpful is letting
go of the Messiah complex orcharity model of giving and
instead try to engage withpeople from a sense of
solidarity.
(32:00):
And there's a real sense offreedom and I think it's more
than just a sense, like it's anact of freedom of not needing to
worry about being the quotegood witness or feeling the
pressure to ensure that theirsalvation is sealed, that their
(32:25):
salvation is sealed, or havingto invite them to church.
There's such a freedom in justsimply being a part of the
people, a part of humans, a partof the community, and when you
develop those relationships andcan let go of that sense of
right or wrong, of good or bad,of heaven or hell.
It allows you to simply show upand be, and the one thing you
(32:49):
can count on with humans isthere's going to always be needs
, there's always going to beplaces and times where
connection is going to beimportant, and I am more
convinced now than ever thatdoing it because that's who I
want to be, and doing it becauseof the ways I benefit from it
(33:14):
even allows you to show up in amuch more real and authentic way
than it does if you're comingfrom a place of needing to save
them.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
I think that's so true, and I think about one of
the ways I see you do this iswhen you are working with
someone who is a refugee or animmigrant, you'll talk about my
friend.
You don't talk about them as aproject, you talk about them as
a friend, and I think thatreally goes a long way toward
(33:46):
making it meaningful for you andmeaningful for them, and I
think that's what we're talkingabout here.
So we came up with a list ofsome of the qualities that we
think folks, coming out of maybea conservative or high demand
or conservative Anabaptistcontext, carry with them.
(34:08):
And it's not that they you knowthat we exclusively have this
but it's just, I think,qualities that can be really
helpful at a time like this, atime in history like this, that
we need to recognize asresources, as gifts, as
something to offer those aroundus.
(34:30):
And the first one I have hereis that we know the value of
showing up for causes that don'tnecessarily benefit us
personally.
We've probably been socializedto do this kind of thing our
whole lives, and so, you know,under that are things like we
understand that alleviatinghuman suffering is a good in and
of itself.
(34:50):
We see the value of small actsof generosity and care.
It doesn't have to be a bigflashy.
The results don't have to bebig and flashy for us to see
them as valuable, and we knowhow to notice a need and just
pitch in without being asked.
And we don't need publicvalidation to motivate us, and I
(35:12):
think these all are essential.
If we're doing any kind ofvolunteering in the community,
any kind of thing, we've got tohave our values driving this and
not some kind of externalreward, and I think this is
something that many of us have.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
I so agree and I think so often.
When I see work being done thatgets publicized on social media
, I think about how easily thatbecomes a PR campaign and even a
recognition of the quote goodworks we do.
(35:52):
And if we can shift that andrealize that our loyalty to what
we do lies within the corevalues and not the flashy
figurehead or the charismaticleader or the social recognition
.
And we all know we've beentaught this that appearances
(36:17):
don't tell the whole story.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Well, and by the time we've deconstructed, we know
this on an even deeper level.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
It's so true.
It's so true, and we know thatwhat you see on Sunday morning
or social media doesn't tell usvery much at all about someone
else's life during the week.
And we are skeptical enough tono longer be intimidated by the
smoke and mirrors of someonethat wants to pose as this
(36:49):
authority in all things.
In fact, at this point, notonly are we not intimidated by
that, we can see through itRight.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
So another quality that many of us have and, as you
pointed out, this is especiallyunique to Amish culture in many
ways and this is this refusalto judge the situations and
motivations of people at adistance, willing to get the
benefit of the doubt.
I had to stop and think for aminute because, on one hand, my
(37:23):
Amish grandfather is the firstperson who came to mind, but I
couldn't say exactly why, and itmight seem counterintuitive
because those of us who wereraised with the Mennonite name
looked on them, you know, lookedon the Amish as being the real
old-fashioned ones.
What do you think's going onhere?
Speaker 1 (37:42):
You know, I think oftentimes the Amish know that
they don't know all things, theyare disconnected from the
outside world, and they then inturn, I think, develop a sense
(38:04):
of curiosity that oftentimesgets lost within the Beachy and
Mennonite groups.
And that's not to say no onegets judged Right, let's be
clear, I think, yeah, to be fair, judgment happens within the
community, but Amish tend not tojudge those outside the
community in the same ways thatI see Beachy and Mennonite
(38:28):
people judging.
I think it goes back to thiswhole.
The Amish faith is built on thehope of salvation and they hold
that very gently and veryhumbly.
And again, again.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
This is, you know, we're looking at it through a
very positive lens at the momentright.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Right, right and different groups are going to
talk about it differently.
But, I remember my.
I have Amish relatives thatstill talk about the hope of
salvation.
I have Amish friends that talkabout the hope of salvation.
I have Amish friends that talkabout the hope of salvation and
I think it's quite beautifulwhen they speak about it,
because it's this humility.
(39:11):
It's a humility but it's alsopart of almost embracing the
journey.
Yeah, we haven't arrived, we'renot there.
Yeah, it's continuing.
To me, it acknowledges thecontinuing process where
oftentimes, beachy and Mennonitepeople will have this certainty
of salvation and it is a fistclenched assurance.
(39:33):
And when you've arrived, whenyou've achieved, when you've
you've, when all that's left todo is save the rest of the world
with your knowledge, there'snothing to be curious about.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Isn't that also kind of evangelical fundamentalist?
Speaker 1 (39:52):
influence?
I think it is.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Because I think both our parents would have, both our
sets of parents would have beenadamant about having the
assurance of salvation.
That was really reallyimportant to them and they saw
as distinctive from the Amishwho only had a hope.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Yeah, and there's this story that I've heard many
times, and every time I hear itI just kind of smile and I nod
and I'm like, yeah, that's it.
This Amish guy was asked by anoutsider are you a Christian?
And he shook his head a littlebit, he smiled and he said I
think you should go ask myneighbor.
Yeah, yeah, To me that issomething I can identify with
(40:30):
Right Right.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
So I think, to the extent that we can tap into that
, that's something that we cantake with us as we go into our
communities and bring a sense ofcuriosity with us as we engage
with people around us.
Similarly, and maybe even apart of that, is that when we've
been part of a distinctivesubculture and also maybe
(40:53):
experienced leaving it andreestablishing our lives in
another context, that has givenus more cross-cultural
experience than many Americanshave had, and with that comes
experience and knowledge ofdifferences.
We learn not to assume.
The rest of the world thinkslike us which is, I think, is
(41:13):
what we were just talking aminute ago and many of us also
benefit from the adaptability ofspeaking more than one language
.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
And I think that's huge.
I think being able to speakmore than one language kind of
changes the way your brainfunctions.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Yeah, and allows you to see, allows you to think in
more.
I think it makes us more awareof how we are thinking about
things you know and how we'retalking about them.
Kind of relatedly is this ideaof code switching and this is
something that really comes morefrom African American
scholarship on using thelanguage of our home and then
(41:50):
maybe when we go to school, welearn a different dialect same
language, right, but differentdialect, different way of
speaking.
And the idea of code switchingis that one doesn't have to
supplant the other.
You don't have to choose one orthe other.
You can have both of them as aresource and you can choose
which you want to use when.
And I think that ability tocode switch is something, is a
(42:12):
valuable resource that we carrywith us and it can allow us to
connect our networks right,networks from our background
with networks from our currentday.
It allows us to makeexponentially more connections
with other people.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
And I think this is important especially for those
of us who have deconverted,because during the peak of my
deconversion there was somelanguage I just simply could not
use, and there's still languagethat I sometimes steer away
from, but at the same time,there's times where that
language is beneficial.
Sometimes some of theChristianese language is a way
(42:54):
to connect and I think you canuse that without manipulating.
It's simply a way of connecting.
It's the language theyunderstand and so, personally,
that's been something that I'vebeen thinking a lot about is, in
many ways, it is anotherlanguage and it's a language I
(43:15):
know and it's okay to use itwhen it's needed and when it
allows us to build and connectwith other networks.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
And this is something that you have done so well with
Amazon wishlists every holidayseason.
You know of people in need andyou'll give them an alias and
then invite your friends onFacebook to pitch in and you
know, this is actually, I think,really fun.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
It's really neat and even if you have a single mom,
I've had moms who were theirhusbands moved out.
They had to get new apartmentsbecause they can't afford
housing.
They were basically left withnothing.
You have, you have kids whoneed beds, and it's such a fun
way to build connections, tobuild communities, to be part of
(44:06):
something that's way biggerthan I am.
There's no way I on my owncould do what these Amazon wish
lists allow us to docollectively.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
That's so wonderful and such a beautiful thing to do
, and I think I really respectthe way that you well respect
their identity.
You make them human by tellingus about their situations right,
while still protecting theiridentity.
Not only are your friends whoare pitching in, offering a
service, but you are also givingthem that opportunity that they
(44:39):
wouldn't have had otherwise.
I think, that's such a wonderfulpower of connection and you
know, we know people who havevery practical skills, like
construction skills or folks whoknow how to fix a taillight on
a car.
Maybe somebody needs helpwinterizing their home.
Is there someone in our networkthat we know who would be
(45:00):
willing to help them out if theyjust don't know when we are
able to make those connections,I think that can be so enriching
and everyone benefits from it.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
I think the way that you have talked to your kids
about these issues is sovaluable and so exciting,
because you've actively createdan awareness with your kids
about the differences thatpeople might be experiencing.
Right, I think you need to tellus about Liberty, about the
differences that people might beexperiencing Right.
I think you need to tell usabout Liberty.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Well, there was this.
This is just one small example,but it's a concrete one.
She had a friend who had reallycome through some difficult
things and had really had togrow up to too soon, and she had
a coat that was this reallyheavy fur coat, but it was
clearly secondhand and had thelining was torn, and Liberty
said, hey, I'll take that homeand my mom will mend it.
(45:50):
And of course I was glad to.
And later on I got to meet thefriend who was just such a
delightful, delightful personand I was so proud that she saw
a need.
And we know 14 year olds Ithink she was 14 at the time
they tend not to see thingslaying around the house, but she
noticed that and that reallymakes me proud.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
She noticed that and and her first I love, I love the
fact that her first thoughtwasn't we need to buy her a new
coat, but rather wait, my momknows how to fix that.
I mean that, that's so.
I think that's so beautiful,it's so empowering, it's it's
it's not shaming the torn coat,it's just simply saying wait, we
(46:36):
know how to fix that.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
Yes, yeah, I found that my children, through their
school, have really been animportant point of connection
right in the community.
I mean, that's an obvious thing.
I think a lot of us experiencethat.
But we happen to live close tothe middle school and the high
school, and last year more thanthis year.
But we had a lot of kids at ourhouse after school and I took a
(47:00):
lot of joy in being intentionalabout creating a place that's
safe.
Our house is not big, we don'thave fancy toys, electronics and
all that, but it was a placethey could come and know they
were safe and you know, and youfed them waffles, waffles and
(47:23):
popcorn, lots of popcorn andcookies, all the things.
But the thing is like, you know, we had kids.
She has friends in her friendgroup, a whole range of
backgrounds, and there are somewith a lot of needs, some who,
well, their identity puts themat high risk right now, and then
also kids from very privilegedbackgrounds and some of those
(47:43):
kids were the loneliest kids.
And I think of her, one friendwho I'd often give a ride home
at the end of the evening andshe would just sit in the car
and talk and I could tell shejust didn't want to go back in
the house and she finally did,and I just think that's
something to be aware of.
Also, I've talked with my sonabout what would happen if he is
(48:08):
with his friends of color andlaw enforcement comes around.
You know, and in the past we'vetalked about it's been in terms
of the cops, but I've made himaware that he has a level of
privilege and that he needs tobe aware of that and use it to
protect his friends if thesituation arises.
Be aware of that and use it toprotect his friends If, if, if
the situation arises and andwe've talked about not speaking
without an attorney presentwe've talked about all those
(48:30):
things and, and more recentlywe've been talking about what
happens if immigration shows up.
They've been spotted not toofar from our area here and I
want him to know what to do andhow to protect his friends If
that becomes an issue.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
You are such a wise mom like seriously.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
It's the least I mean .
I wish it could be so much more, but it's it's one thing we can
do.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
Right, you know, I think sometimes, whether it is
ice, whether it is a nosyneighbor, whomever it is, I
think the way we show up forother people is so important.
I think about a professor I had.
It was a ethics class and hewas talking about Huck Finn and
(49:19):
the way he rescued the slave.
Speaker 2 (49:31):
He rescued the slave and the tension that was there
in do I follow the rules or do Ifollow my own values, and this
was in the context of slaveryand the fugitive slave law.
Right Right when he would havebeen, it would have been illegal
to not report a runaway slaveand to give him a ride, like
didn't he get on his?
Oh yeah, huck, finn had a raftand he had a raft.
(49:51):
And he, yeah, and he left theslave on the raft and yeah, jim
rode with him down the yes andthis was was it back in 2016?
Speaker 1 (50:03):
have I been in school that long?
Was it in 2016, when there wasthat first mess with immigration
?
Like I think it was in thattimeframe?
I have been in school a longtime, my goodness, because not
soon.
Like soon after having thisconversation, he starts talking
about the illegals and howthat's a problem and we need to
(50:27):
do something about that.
And there were, like I don'tknow, 25 kids in this room and
or in this class, and obviouslynot all white, and so I remember
raising my hand and I'm sayingso.
Let's be clear here.
I appreciate the Huck Finnstory and understand the tension
(50:49):
that was involved there, andyou and I both agree he did the
right thing.
I said today we haveundocumented people who also
deserve safety.
We have undocumented people whoalso have needs.
I said I don't understand whywe applaud Huck Finn but we, in
(51:10):
turn, would report them.
I said can you help meunderstand how we get here?
Well, he kind of pointed outthat I was calling them
undocumented instead of illegaland went down that little road.
Oh, don't get me started on that.
And at one point he said, soyou would not report somebody.
(51:34):
And I like snorted, I'm likethere is no way I would report
an undocumented friend, anundocumented human.
Why would I?
I don't know how that'sdifferent.
I don't know, I don't either,and I think we need to get
really honest with what ourvalues are.
Just because it's a law or arule doesn't mean we have to
(51:56):
follow this.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
I mean, and especially for those of us it
doesn't mean, it's moral.
Speaker 1 (52:01):
Right, and for those of us that grew up conservative
Anabaptists, if there's onething we know how to do, it's we
know how to break rules.
Speaker 2 (52:07):
And we know how to get around the rules.
We know how to do this.
Speaker 1 (52:12):
And I don't understand why we feel like this
is a law we have to follow.
Speaker 2 (52:24):
Not when the welfare of human beings is at stake.
Like that's just.
Speaker 1 (52:29):
Also when people were legal yesterday, but now today
they're not.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
I mean when or when they have appealed for asylum as
refugees.
No, they don't have documents,but they have gone through the
process and let me just bereally.
Speaker 1 (52:48):
Let me be really clear here.
It's none of my business, right?
It's none of my businesswhether they're here legally or
not.
None of my business and people.
We don't ask this question.
You do not ask someone theirstatus If they want to share it
with you, that's anotherconversation.
You do not have any businessasking someone this.
Speaker 2 (53:46):
Yes gets said might serve or reach out or connect
with someone in our communitywho may be or not in a situation
like that or might be lonely,as we know there's.
So many are right theloneliness epidemic is something
we hear about all the time.
Just inviting someone for ameal, inviting them into our
home it might be a holiday, itmight just be a weeknight and
inviting them into our life,even when our house isn't
(54:08):
perfect or even when we don'thave a fancy meal, is really
where that authentic connectioncan happen and it can be so
meaningful for everyone, foreveryone involved.
You know, and I also like todream big.
I like your dreams Because I,for a long time, have had a
(54:29):
dream of developing a housingcooperative, especially for
families of young children, andthere are a million and one
different ways that somethinglike this could happen.
I can't make it happen by myselfand I keep thinking that at
some point I'll have enough timeto write the grants or do the
research to figure out how tomake this happen.
(54:49):
You know how can I buy a cheapold building and have it
renovated into some kind ofhousing cooperative, right?
I don't know.
But I can dream and you know, Idon't know where these kinds of
resources that we're talkingabout here can take us.
Maybe it'll just stay small andin our communities, but who
(55:11):
knows, maybe one day we can dosomething on a much larger scale
too, and I know you've got yourown ideas about creative
housing solutions.
Speaker 1 (55:21):
Yeah, the tiny house communities always kind of
intrigue me, like I think it issuch a fabulous way to build
community and it's such a neatway to provide housing but offer
a sense of of support andcommunity.
And I think it would be so coolto have, like you know, five
(55:46):
acres and you have your chickensand you have your gardens, and
I think you would have to have asection of them where you
Airbnb, just so that you canmake money as well to help fund
everything.
Because I thought about you know, I don't think I would want to
do it as a nonprofit.
(56:07):
I've decided I don't want thatfor many reasons but allowing
people to not just pay rent butbuild equity in their house so
that in time they can sell theirpart of it, take the equity and
go buy something larger and letthe next person have a turn.
But I think there's so manycreative ways we can do this and
(56:31):
I think about it.
You know, there's some of usthat are rattling around in big
houses with more space than wereally need and it breaks my
heart when I think about peoplewho are desperate for housing
and I think we can do more and Ithink we should do more.
Speaker 2 (56:48):
I mean, we have this, you know housing shortage
nationwide, at least affordableshortage.
No, let me rephrase that wehave a shortage of affordable
housing.
There's not a housing shortage.
In Manhattan, New York City,there are more empty luxury
apartments than homeless peopleon the street.
We don't have a housingshortage.
(57:09):
We have affordable housingshortage.
Because?
Well, because why?
You know?
I think it can feel silly todream big, but I think it's also
important to remember that theworld as we know it is not the
only way to be.
I mean, look at what happenedin March of 2020 and how quickly
(57:31):
we figured out how to changethings really, really fast, and
I think that is such a reminderthat, no matter how unchangeable
the world can seem at one time,things can change very quickly,
and whether it's for the goodor bad.
I hope we're there to do thekind of thing that may or may
(57:52):
not make a difference, but thatwe can look back on with pride
and know that how we wereinvolved, what we did, was true
to our values.
Speaker 1 (58:01):
And I think that right there is like the crux of
it all thinking about our valuesand aligning ourselves with
that.
In closing, I follow a Reverend, benjamin Kremer I think it's
pronounced Kremer, c-r-e-m-e-r,and today he had a post he wrote
(58:22):
salvation belongs to God, notto us.
Woe to us who think we are theones who know better than God
about who should be included inGod's work of salvation.
We are actually living in atime where some Christians see
mercy as offensive, empathy as asin, and diversity, equity and
inclusion as a threat.
Woe to those who call evil goodand good evil, who put darkness
(58:46):
for light and light fordarkness.
Isaiah 520.
And there was one of thecomments that really kind of
grabbed my attention and I likedthe way it was worded.
He wrote Jonathan wrote I havealways said that the holy books,
the Bible, the Quran, whatever,are just claims.
They are not evidence.
They are just claims.
(59:06):
The evidence comes from thewords, actions and deeds of the
followers of that faith.
Whether fair or not,unbelievers see the nature of
God in the evidence of thoseclaims, through the words,
actions and deeds of thefollowers.
If Christians act with hate,that is how the biblical God is
viewed and you know, this isn'tjust America who's watching.
(59:28):
The whole world is watching andpaying attention to how we are
doing.
Speaker 2 (59:36):
And to how well we are living up to this national
reputation of protecting humanrights.
Speaker 1 (59:44):
And if this is the best that Christians can do, I
think we're screwed.
Speaker 2 (59:51):
So it's up to us, the defectors, to go out.
Speaker 1 (59:56):
And make a difference and be different.
Speaker 2 (59:58):
And be different.
Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
Like what are the values that we say we hold?
What are the values we claim?
Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
Like what are the values that we say we hold, what
are the values we claim?
We don't have to have areligious identity to live those
out and I think that's a reallyhopeful thing.
And I think many of us,wherever we fall on the
religious identificationspectrum I don't know spectrum's
not even complex enough but,like, wherever we fall in our
faith identity, we can connecton these values.
Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
Oh, absolutely, and.
Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
I think that's what matters and I think, at a time
when many of us might feel angerand frustration and despair,
that's important to me.
Speaker 1 (01:00:51):
Thank you for spending time with us today.
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 2 (01:00:58):
What are your thoughts about college and
recovery from high demandreligion?
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences and we
want to talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atuncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom.
That's uncoveredlifebeyond atgmailcom.
Speaker 1 (01:01:18):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode.
Speaker 2 (01:01:31):
Until next time stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward.
Thank you.
This is.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Rebecca, and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path Along the
way, we've uncovered a fewinsights we want to share with
fellow travelers.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up, we are here to cheeryou on and assure you that the
best is yet to come.
Welcome to Uncovered LifeBeyond.
Hello everyone, Welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.
(01:07):
This is Naomi and this isRebecca.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
So after our conversation last week we kind
of realized we had more to say,didn't we?
Yeah, yeah.
So we ended the conversationwith the question do we know who
we are?
Do Anabaptists know who theyeven are?
And maybe, specifically afterthose of us who have left the
(01:35):
conservative part of it, do weknow who we are when we don't
have the outward symbols?
Like, sometimes I think we kindof get lost in that the outward
symbols defined so much aboutwho we are.
We knew who went to what churchbased on how we dressed, and
sometimes I think it's reallyeasy to get lost when you don't
(01:56):
have that.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
I agree and I think that so often, or at least in my
experience, that was seen asbeing the real plain people.
And yet, when we look back atsome of those core beliefs that
made the Anabaptist, anabaptisthad very little to do with that.
It had nothing to do with that.
(02:18):
It was much more aboutreligious belief and faith being
a matter of an individual'sconscience, not something that's
imposed by an outside authority.
We were talking a lot aboutpacifism or non-resistance to
violence, and more of thosereally central ideas that so
(02:40):
often seem lost from a lot ofexpressions of Anabaptism today.
And while many of us who haveleft the tradition look back and
lament what we see as the lossof some of the best parts, it
occurred to me that there arestill elements of that tradition
(03:02):
that we have that can beresources for us, even as we
move beyond the tradition,resources that can allow us to
make really valuablecontributions to whatever
community we find ourselves intoday.
And as I was thinking about thismore, I thought you know we
need to talk about this, andespecially when there are many
(03:25):
of us who have left not just aplain Anabaptist setting but any
kind of a high-demand religionand we may have missed out on
educational opportunities, wemight have missed out on all
kinds of pop culture, and whilethose losses are real, I think
at times like these it can bereally valuable to think about
(03:48):
what we do have and make themost of the resources and the
skills and the knowledge that wedo have, because while we
weren't getting that formaleducation or making those career
advancements or whatever itmight be, we were learning
something and we were gaining acertain kind of experience and I
think it can be very hopeful totake stock of those and think
(04:12):
about those contributions thatfolks who have made this shift
very likely can contribute.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
I agree, and I think sometimes leaving or making
changes holds a lot of tension,and you know this analogy of
when you are broken.
It gives you a time and a spaceto pick up the pieces you want
and put them back together, andI think perhaps some of us might
(04:44):
find ourselves kind of in thatspace.
We don't really know who weidentify with, but there's
pieces that are certainlyimportant and valuable and it's
created who we are, and I thinkgiving yourself space to do this
type of thing is redemptive andit allows you to tap into those
skills that we do have.
There's been times where I feltI had more in common with the
(05:07):
trad wives that we kind of rollour eyes about than I want to
have.
It is still good and valuableskills, and I think there's
skills that we have that gobeyond just work.
There's skills in the way welearn how to think about things
and how we learn to organize,and I think it's exciting that
(05:31):
we can bring that to the table.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Absolutely, and one of the things that distinguishes
us from trad wives is maybethat we are using them for
progressive causes.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Yeah, you know it's annoying.
No one pays me for what I know,it seems.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
But anyway, that's okay.
So nonviolence was somethingthat we had talked about a lot,
and I think that's a distinctivefeature of Anabaptist movements
, and every few years I teach aclass on writing a social action
.
We study grassroots socialmovements, social justice
(06:07):
movements, including the civilrights movement, and nonviolence
has been such an importantpiece of so many of those
successful movements.
And in fact, scholars likeErica Chenoweth and I'll link to
her TED Talk in the show notestalk about how nonviolent social
(06:29):
movements have a better successrate at bringing broad changes
to countries than violentuprisings do.
They're not always successful,but they have a greater chance
of being successful, and so Ithink there's a lot of power,
potential for power, innonviolent work that we do,
(06:52):
especially in a country thatessentially sees violence as a
good, as something to entertainus and as something that holds
power.
Well, it holds power and it'stherefore justified yeah, it
doesn't matter who gets in itsway.
And, to that end, a book that Iwould recommend anyone who's
(07:13):
interested in thinking aboutthese kinds of things and
thinking about being active inany kind of community organizing
, the rhetoric of agitation andcontrol is one that has been
really helpful for me inunderstanding kind of the
different layers of it, how yougradually build power.
It maps out both how movementsadvance and then also the kinds
(07:37):
of responses that they typicallyrun into from the powers that
be, and it just gives a helpfulframe of reference for thinking
about these kinds of things, andI will link to one of the
chapters that happened to be afree PDF online and recommend it
for anybody who's interested insomething like that.
For all our background inAnabaptism and non-resistance,
(08:02):
so few of us have any experiencein using it to really bring
about change in the world today,and I think there's a lot of
untapped potential there.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Well, and when you think about the work of Jesus on
earth, I mean that epitomizesthe work of a non-resistant
leader and I always kind ofchuckle.
I was ranting to Matt aboutthis the other evening.
Every so often you'll see, youknow, usually on my feet at some
preacher trying to prove thatJesus was not wimpy.
(08:36):
I mean he turned over the youknow tables in the temple and
I'm like he was turning overyour tables.
You're right.
And since when do we thinknon-resistance is wimpy Like
that?
They have to argue that the wayJesus lived his life here on
(08:58):
earth wasn't wimpy.
To me is always such a puzzle.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Well, if you're looking for reasons to exercise
power and brute force, kind oftracks.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Well, and I always want to ask the question when I
see that what table specificallyare you thinking need to be
turned over, please?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
please, please, ask that the next time you see that
and then report back to us.
Oh yeah, I would love to seethe response.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
It makes no sense in my brain.
I don't understand it.
The fear, the literal fear thatit feels like so many hold, and
particularly white men hold,when it comes to being seen as
compassionate, humble, holdingempathy, and they connect that
(09:49):
to wimpy, I just I don'tunderstand.
And I think today there are alot of what seems like loud
voices, and there's some in theAnabaptist circles that would
say, or at least present theidea, that to them
non-resistance is just simplyrefusing to go to war or maybe
(10:13):
take legal action against aperson.
I think that is a big.
Maybe it really would dependhow much money is at stake,
trust me on this one.
But they would see that more astheir spiritual stance but not
a political one.
And I'm always kind ofconcerned when I see these same
people pro-gun.
(10:35):
I'm like, do you know what thatmeans when you hold that?
Speaker 2 (10:39):
What if we, instead of calling them guns, just
talked about handheld killingmachines?
Right, right, how might thatchange the conversation?
Speaker 1 (10:48):
And it never makes sense to me when it's Anabaptist
voices that are pushing this.
But yeah, many of these peopledo not.
Many of these leaders seem tonot feel that in any way should
non-resistance be a politicalstance.
In fact, I'm always againpuzzled by the argument that,
(11:11):
well, we can't expect thegovernment to operate according
to our values.
And that gets said when ICEcomes along and takes away
immigration and does violencethere.
But at the same time, they'rethe first to get in line at the
(11:32):
voting booth when it comes toquote putting prayer back into
schools or anti-abortion or whathave you.
They're the first ones there.
They're the first ones arguingthat we need a Christian nation.
You can't have it both ways.
Like you pick a side, like Ireally don't care what side you
(11:53):
pick here, but you need to picka side.
At least be consistent, right,and if anyone is interested, the
sword andet.
And I think we had thisdistributed back at Shady Grove
back in the day, didn't we?
Speaker 2 (12:10):
I don't remember it, but it's possible.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Maybe it was something I would have been
introduced to here in Ohio.
But I mean a quick peek attheir website and I recognize
some of the names there.
But a quick peek at theirwebsite and I recognize some of
the names there, but a quickpeek at the website and the
books they sell I thought waskind of concerning A lot of
Calvinist influence which to meCalvinist is kind of problematic
(12:37):
.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Well, it blows my mind because I just remember
growing up we were adamantly notCalvinist, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Yeah, yeah, calvinist to me is really problematic,
but there's like Christianityand wokeness, how the social
justice movement is hijackingthe gospel and the way to stop
it.
And this is Owen StrachanActually, I think it's
pronounced Stratton Owen-Stratton Okay, I'm not familiar
with that name.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
I'm pretty sure that's how it's pronounced, the
title sounds provocative.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Right like like this is what we're introducing or
promoting, and why socialjustice is not biblical justice,
an urgent appeal to fellowChristians in a time of social
crisis.
And that author is Scott DavidAllen I don't know that name,
but as you kind of leaf throughthat, there's a lot of Calvinist
influence and I'm just reallykind of curious about that.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Well, and those names are also associated with
Christian nationalism Exactly,and I don't know how we
(13:58):
reconcile that with Anabaptistfaith.
I don't have the exact words,but the idea is that they are
holding true and resistingchange and yet they are
promoting Protestant teachingsthat run contrary to poor
historic beliefs.
Right, and it's just.
(14:21):
It's so interesting to me thatthe ones claiming to be those
traditionalists, claiming tosave Anabaptists from falling
into doctrinal error, are theones who are actively stepping
away from historic beliefs andembracing Protestant, calvinist,
christian nationalist ideas.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
And I think we should be very clear.
So Anabaptist mission effortsstarted way back in the day as
service efforts.
So the goal here was to meetpeople's basic needs, and this
was long before it became athing about church planting and
recruiting new members.
The Anabaptists knew how to seea need and meet it, and quietly
(15:01):
see a need and meet it, or atleast become involved within the
need.
And it concerns me.
I feel like today there's thisnarrative and this is not
exclusive to Anabaptist churchesbut there's this narrative that
the important work gets done onthe mission field or you need
to give to organizations andthey'll give it back to the
(15:21):
community, or you know you needto give to organizations and
they'll give it back to thecommunity and they'll, you know,
ensure that it gets given tothe correct people, so that you
know funds aren't wasted, when,in reality, when you look at
church budgets, it isfrightening how little money
gets put back into the community.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
It's incredibly inefficient.
The system is incrediblyinefficient.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
It's incredibly inefficient.
The system is incrediblyinefficient.
Have flashy and have power andhave status is going to be far
more important than it is to sitwith the homeless person or to
help the immigrant get to thedoctor.
I think we might maybe run intosome of that, and I just always
think about how amazing itwould be when or if we would
have churches who applaudmembers, who invest within the
(16:30):
community, who develop thoserelationships, who the
congregation knows that ifthere's a doctor bill that needs
to get paid, all they need todo is contact the church office
and they'll figure it out.
That to me would be like suchan amazing form of community,
but it seems like most churchesdo the exact opposite.
(16:52):
In fact, if you know of achurch that does this, let me
know.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Right, and there's a message that, instead of
advocating for justice, weshould just fall in line.
There's this trust in the powerstructures of the world
patriarchy, capitalism,colonialism, right All without
maybe not explicitly, maybe, butmaybe not explicitly recognized
(17:19):
as being ordained of God andtherefore need to be respected
and enforced, by violence ifnecessary.
And so, and these are, even if,say, a traditional Anabaptist
church is not teaching thatspecifically, those are the
ideas that are present in someof those names we were talking
about just a minute ago, and Ithink this is very real for a
(17:42):
lot of other churches too,outside the Anabaptist circles.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
And you know this is a little bit of a bunny trail
and we can delete it if we needto, but I think it is
fascinating to think about themany ways or the many forms of
violence that were part of ourheritage.
The violence and brutality ofthe crucifixion is glorified.
(18:08):
The discipline is violent, theway many people experience their
spankings and discipline aschildren.
That's violent Within thecongregation if someone errs
Within the congregation.
If someone errs,excommunicating them and just
throwing them out of the homesometimes is an act of violence.
(18:32):
So I think in some ways Iwonder how much of that has made
us we don't cringe when we seeviolence happening than in other
areas.
We're cozying up to it.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
It seems almost normal, I agree, many from this
background who may or may notstill identify as Mennonite or
Anabaptist or Amish, but who areasking questions about some of
these assumptions right and someof these stances on justice
(19:18):
issues and are pushing backagainst them in very real ways
you know it's funny against themin very real ways, you know
it's funny Sometimes.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
I think the conservative Anabaptists who
leave might have the most traumato work through and get some of
the.
They often get a bad rap.
I mean, I think when you leavethe Amish it's like, well, you
know, that's an Amish, becausethere's a certain sense of
novelty there.
Those who grew up with aliberal, mennonite background
(19:51):
tend to have a little lesstrauma.
From what I've observed, mm.
Hmm, there is no one who knowshow to deconstruct and honestly
navigate issues like aconservative Anabaptist person
and I am so excited about theconversations that are happening
(20:13):
around this of Gothard, ofPiper, of all those influences
that we had and I think when yougo through that experience, all
of a sudden your value changes.
You can then more easily seeyourself in other people, which
(20:35):
I think offers dignity.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Are you saying like we see what we have in common
with others?
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Because I think, with you know, coming out of a high
demand religious setting,there's often been a lot of
emphasis put on being specialand being unique, on being set
apart.
Set apart the elect all that.
And when you deconstruct fromthat and suddenly you realize,
oh, I'm nothing special, I'mjust like everybody else, and
(21:05):
that's very freeing, even as itis disorienting.
But, yeah, it allows us toconnect with people around us
with a degree of authenticitythat you cannot have when you're
maintaining this facade ofperfection.
Right, I think what reallydistinguishes these emerging
(21:32):
voices is that they really docare about human suffering in
our communities and defendingthe dignity of all people, and
they see the value of diversity,equity and inclusion.
And, whether they identify asAnabaptist or not, or even as
Christian or not, they arereally embodying the values that
, well, I thought we werebrought up with, but the ones
(21:55):
that I thought we were supposedto embrace but seem to be
falling by the wayside.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
I also see this group of people very intentionally
trying to separate themselvesfrom toxic power structures that
exist in a way that seems tofurther consolidate power, which
again reminds me so much of whythe Anabaptist group started in
(22:22):
the first place.
They were concerned about thepower the Catholic and the
Lutheran church held and theydidn't want to support those
types of power structures.
They believed in separation ofchurch and state, and to me that
is so exciting, like itenergizes me.
(22:43):
But I think there's alsosometimes the sense of feeling
disempowered and this sense ofnot knowing how to be part of
the solution.
It's one thing to criticize,but it's another thing to be
like okay, so, so how do we fixthis?
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Right, and they might already be exhausted from doing
work behind the scenes or justfrom surviving.
I think there's a lot of usthat are between work and taking
care of families and maybegoing to school and whatever
else.
There's just not a lot ofbandwidth left over, and folks
(23:20):
in this situation, like Imentioned earlier, might feel
unqualified because they don'thave formal education or they
don't have much of a backgroundin social movements or being
really involved in volunteeringin the community.
So many of us, especially thoseof us socialized as girls and
(23:41):
women in high demand, religioussettings are conditioned to
self-doubt, right?
We're taught to not trustourselves.
We're taught not to takeinitiative, to hold ourselves
back and let others take thelead, and so when we have all
that baggage hanging on to us,it can be hard to know where to
(24:03):
even start.
You know like, even if we arephilosophically making these
shifts, it can be hard to knowhow do we live them out.
I saw a really inspiringexample of one of these voices
(24:25):
this is not someone I knowpersonally, but I came across
her post on Facebook who iscalling Anabaptists to this
nonviolent tradition, and she istalking about it in the context
of the political climate todayand her closing line is over the
years, anabaptists have oftenbeen absorbed into the fog of
nationalisms rather than findingclarity and courage to exercise
(24:47):
nonconformity.
How are often people who wantto hold onto their hate and
still feel like good people?
But kindness and justice don'twork that way.
Reverend Dr Martin Luther KingJr, the white moderate who is
more devoted to order than tojustice, who prefers a negative
(25:26):
peace, which is the absence oftension, to a positive peace,
which is the presence of justice.
So this is a quote fromReverend Dr Martin Luther King
Jr's letter from a Birminghamjail.
This is something he wrote in1963.
He had gone to Birmingham,alabama, to lead a desegregation
(25:51):
campaign.
There had been, I believe itwas, like a group of eight
clergymen white clergymen whohad written an open letter
basically telling him to standdown.
And he's sitting there in jailafter being arrested for the
peaceful protest.
And he responds to them and Ithink these words.
(26:12):
It's about six pages long.
It's pretty lengthy, so I won'tread the whole thing, but there
was a passage that I thinkspeaks so clearly to what we're
talking about here and isrelevant for our time.
He says there was a time whenthe church was very powerful and
the time when the earlyChristians rejoiced at being
deemed worthy to suffer for whatthey believed.
(26:33):
He goes on to talk about thetime of the Roman Colosseum and
the kind of martyrdom that earlyChristians experienced.
He goes on to say things aredifferent now.
So often the contemporary churchis a weak, ineffectual voice
with an uncertain sound.
So often it is an arch defenderof the status quo.
Far from being disturbed by thepresence of the church, the
(26:56):
power structure of the averagecommunity is consoled by the
church's silence and even vocalsanction of things as they are.
But the judgment of?
Consoled by the church'ssilence and even vocal sanction
of things as they are.
But the judgment of God is uponthe church as never before.
If today's church does notrecapture the sacrificial spirit
of the early church, it losesits authenticity, forfeits the
loyalty of millions and isdismissed as an irrelevant
(27:19):
social club with no meaning forthe 20th century.
Every day I meet young peoplewhose disappointment with the
church has turned into outrightdisgust.
Boy, those are heavy words.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
And to be true, I mean, that's where
deconstruction started.
For me, that disgust he talksabout that's where
deconstruction starts, and I amalways surprised when the church
seems puzzled or confused bythis and control and in books
(28:07):
like that that talk about thepotential power of organized
social movements, and in anonviolent way.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Two factors really stand out to me as things that
we have many of us from thesekinds of backgrounds have that
can be really really empowering,and one of those is social
networks.
Local to national, we have acollection of close and loose
ties and social media has reallyfacilitated this so that
(28:34):
someone that we might not knowvery well, but we have run into
them on social media enough tohave a frame of reference,
really could allow us to worktogether and leverage that
connection at some point downthe road.
We also have a deep culturalunderstanding of mutual aid and
(28:55):
reciprocity.
Like we've grown up with workdays, we've grown up with this
kind of thing where thecommunity gets together and
everybody pitches in, or atleast I did.
I don't know.
I guess plain churches still dothese kinds of things.
I hope they do.
It's one of the best parts ofthe culture, but I think that's
a real, that's a very specialgift in the context of American
(29:19):
hyper individualism.
It's something that we whatwe've been brought up in all our
lives we just well like a flockof birds, a flock of crows.
You know, nobody's actuallyleading that flock, but somehow
it moves together Right.
And there's some of that sameelement, I think, here, when we,
(29:42):
from little on up, are familiarwith these kinds of community
efforts.
And this is even withoutmentioning all the practical
skills that many of us learnedgrowing up, potatoes and frugal
living, knowing how to grow agarden or animals for food, how
(30:05):
to preserve food, sowing andjust so many more skills that so
many of us grew up with.
And maybe, if you're like me,there've been times when I've
hesitated talking about thosethings because I don't want to
be associated with a trad wifeimage.
But, as we said before, theseare really useful skills and,
(30:27):
given the events of the pastcouple of weeks, with programs
being cut, programs that ourpeople are dependent on for
survival, it is not unreasonableto expect that we're going to
be seeing a mushrooming of needsand impoverishment in our
communities unlike anythingwe've seen before, and I think
(30:48):
these skills and these abilitiescan be more important than ever
.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
The other thing that I think we often forget and this
is kind of going back to thesocial networks those of us in
the Amish Mennonite culture havemany ways of knowing who your
great aunt's cousin is, andthere's family connections that
run really deep too, and so Ithink sometimes we feel like we
(31:19):
have lost so much of thenetworking that oftentimes
leaders talk about, when inactuality, just the fact that we
know who our cousins are, whotheir cousins are, provides such
a deep social network, and Ithink it's really important.
(31:40):
So I think, when we talk aboutfeeling disempowered or
empowered, something I havefound really helpful is letting
go of the Messiah complex orcharity model of giving and
instead try to engage withpeople from a sense of
solidarity.
(32:00):
And there's a real sense offreedom and I think it's more
than just a sense, like it's anact of freedom of not needing to
worry about being the quotegood witness or feeling the
pressure to ensure that theirsalvation is sealed, that their
(32:25):
salvation is sealed, or havingto invite them to church.
There's such a freedom in justsimply being a part of the
people, a part of humans, a partof the community, and when you
develop those relationships andcan let go of that sense of
right or wrong, of good or bad,of heaven or hell.
It allows you to simply show upand be, and the one thing you
(32:49):
can count on with humans isthere's going to always be needs
, there's always going to beplaces and times where
connection is going to beimportant, and I am more
convinced now than ever thatdoing it because that's who I
want to be, and doing it becauseof the ways I benefit from it
(33:14):
even allows you to show up in amuch more real and authentic way
than it does if you're comingfrom a place of needing to save
them.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
I think that's so true, and I think about one of
the ways I see you do this iswhen you are working with
someone who is a refugee or animmigrant, you'll talk about my
friend.
You don't talk about them as aproject, you talk about them as
a friend, and I think thatreally goes a long way toward
(33:46):
making it meaningful for you andmeaningful for them, and I
think that's what we're talkingabout here.
So we came up with a list ofsome of the qualities that we
think folks, coming out of maybea conservative or high demand
or conservative Anabaptistcontext, carry with them.
(34:08):
And it's not that they you knowthat we exclusively have this
but it's just, I think,qualities that can be really
helpful at a time like this, atime in history like this, that
we need to recognize asresources, as gifts, as
something to offer those aroundus.
(34:30):
And the first one I have hereis that we know the value of
showing up for causes that don'tnecessarily benefit us
personally.
We've probably been socializedto do this kind of thing our
whole lives, and so, you know,under that are things like we
understand that alleviatinghuman suffering is a good in and
of itself.
(34:50):
We see the value of small actsof generosity and care.
It doesn't have to be a bigflashy.
The results don't have to bebig and flashy for us to see
them as valuable, and we knowhow to notice a need and just
pitch in without being asked.
And we don't need publicvalidation to motivate us, and I
(35:12):
think these all are essential.
If we're doing any kind ofvolunteering in the community,
any kind of thing, we've got tohave our values driving this and
not some kind of externalreward, and I think this is
something that many of us have.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
I so agree and I think so often.
When I see work being done thatgets publicized on social media
, I think about how easily thatbecomes a PR campaign and even a
recognition of the quote goodworks we do.
(35:52):
And if we can shift that andrealize that our loyalty to what
we do lies within the corevalues and not the flashy
figurehead or the charismaticleader or the social recognition
.
And we all know we've beentaught this that appearances
(36:17):
don't tell the whole story.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Well, and by the time we've deconstructed, we know
this on an even deeper level.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
It's so true.
It's so true, and we know thatwhat you see on Sunday morning
or social media doesn't tell usvery much at all about someone
else's life during the week.
And we are skeptical enough tono longer be intimidated by the
smoke and mirrors of someonethat wants to pose as this
(36:49):
authority in all things.
In fact, at this point, notonly are we not intimidated by
that, we can see through itRight.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
So another quality that many of us have and, as you
pointed out, this is especiallyunique to Amish culture in many
ways and this is this refusalto judge the situations and
motivations of people at adistance, willing to get the
benefit of the doubt.
I had to stop and think for aminute because, on one hand, my
(37:23):
Amish grandfather is the firstperson who came to mind, but I
couldn't say exactly why, and itmight seem counterintuitive
because those of us who wereraised with the Mennonite name
looked on them, you know, lookedon the Amish as being the real
old-fashioned ones.
What do you think's going onhere?
Speaker 1 (37:42):
You know, I think oftentimes the Amish know that
they don't know all things, theyare disconnected from the
outside world, and they then inturn, I think, develop a sense
(38:04):
of curiosity that oftentimesgets lost within the Beachy and
Mennonite groups.
And that's not to say no onegets judged Right, let's be
clear, I think, yeah, to be fair, judgment happens within the
community, but Amish tend not tojudge those outside the
community in the same ways thatI see Beachy and Mennonite
(38:28):
people judging.
I think it goes back to thiswhole.
The Amish faith is built on thehope of salvation and they hold
that very gently and veryhumbly.
And again, again.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
This is, you know, we're looking at it through a
very positive lens at the momentright.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Right, right and different groups are going to
talk about it differently.
But, I remember my.
I have Amish relatives thatstill talk about the hope of
salvation.
I have Amish friends that talkabout the hope of salvation.
I have Amish friends that talkabout the hope of salvation and
I think it's quite beautifulwhen they speak about it,
because it's this humility.
(39:11):
It's a humility but it's alsopart of almost embracing the
journey.
Yeah, we haven't arrived, we'renot there.
Yeah, it's continuing.
To me, it acknowledges thecontinuing process where
oftentimes, beachy and Mennonitepeople will have this certainty
of salvation and it is a fistclenched assurance.
(39:33):
And when you've arrived, whenyou've achieved, when you've
you've, when all that's left todo is save the rest of the world
with your knowledge, there'snothing to be curious about.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Isn't that also kind of evangelical fundamentalist?
Speaker 1 (39:52):
influence?
I think it is.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Because I think both our parents would have, both our
sets of parents would have beenadamant about having the
assurance of salvation.
That was really reallyimportant to them and they saw
as distinctive from the Amishwho only had a hope.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Yeah, and there's this story that I've heard many
times, and every time I hear itI just kind of smile and I nod
and I'm like, yeah, that's it.
This Amish guy was asked by anoutsider are you a Christian?
And he shook his head a littlebit, he smiled and he said I
think you should go ask myneighbor.
Yeah, yeah, To me that issomething I can identify with
(40:30):
Right Right.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
So I think, to the extent that we can tap into that
, that's something that we cantake with us as we go into our
communities and bring a sense ofcuriosity with us as we engage
with people around us.
Similarly, and maybe even apart of that, is that when we've
been part of a distinctivesubculture and also maybe
(40:53):
experienced leaving it andreestablishing our lives in
another context, that has givenus more cross-cultural
experience than many Americanshave had, and with that comes
experience and knowledge ofdifferences.
We learn not to assume.
The rest of the world thinkslike us which is, I think, is
(41:13):
what we were just talking aminute ago and many of us also
benefit from the adaptability ofspeaking more than one language
.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
And I think that's huge.
I think being able to speakmore than one language kind of
changes the way your brainfunctions.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Yeah, and allows you to see, allows you to think in
more.
I think it makes us more awareof how we are thinking about
things you know and how we'retalking about them.
Kind of relatedly is this ideaof code switching and this is
something that really comes morefrom African American
scholarship on using thelanguage of our home and then
(41:50):
maybe when we go to school, welearn a different dialect same
language, right, but differentdialect, different way of
speaking.
And the idea of code switchingis that one doesn't have to
supplant the other.
You don't have to choose one orthe other.
You can have both of them as aresource and you can choose
which you want to use when.
And I think that ability tocode switch is something, is a
(42:12):
valuable resource that we carrywith us and it can allow us to
connect our networks right,networks from our background
with networks from our currentday.
It allows us to makeexponentially more connections
with other people.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
And I think this is important especially for those
of us who have deconverted,because during the peak of my
deconversion there was somelanguage I just simply could not
use, and there's still languagethat I sometimes steer away
from, but at the same time,there's times where that
language is beneficial.
Sometimes some of theChristianese language is a way
(42:54):
to connect and I think you canuse that without manipulating.
It's simply a way of connecting.
It's the language theyunderstand and so, personally,
that's been something that I'vebeen thinking a lot about is, in
many ways, it is anotherlanguage and it's a language I
(43:15):
know and it's okay to use itwhen it's needed and when it
allows us to build and connectwith other networks.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
And this is something that you have done so well with
Amazon wishlists every holidayseason.
You know of people in need andyou'll give them an alias and
then invite your friends onFacebook to pitch in and you
know, this is actually, I think,really fun.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
It's really neat and even if you have a single mom,
I've had moms who were theirhusbands moved out.
They had to get new apartmentsbecause they can't afford
housing.
They were basically left withnothing.
You have, you have kids whoneed beds, and it's such a fun
way to build connections, tobuild communities, to be part of
(44:06):
something that's way biggerthan I am.
There's no way I on my owncould do what these Amazon wish
lists allow us to docollectively.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
That's so wonderful and such a beautiful thing to do
, and I think I really respectthe way that you well respect
their identity.
You make them human by tellingus about their situations right,
while still protecting theiridentity.
Not only are your friends whoare pitching in, offering a
service, but you are also givingthem that opportunity that they
(44:39):
wouldn't have had otherwise.
I think, that's such a wonderfulpower of connection and you
know, we know people who havevery practical skills, like
construction skills or folks whoknow how to fix a taillight on
a car.
Maybe somebody needs helpwinterizing their home.
Is there someone in our networkthat we know who would be
(45:00):
willing to help them out if theyjust don't know when we are
able to make those connections,I think that can be so enriching
and everyone benefits from it.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
I think the way that you have talked to your kids
about these issues is sovaluable and so exciting,
because you've actively createdan awareness with your kids
about the differences thatpeople might be experiencing.
Right, I think you need to tellus about Liberty, about the
differences that people might beexperiencing Right.
I think you need to tell usabout Liberty.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Well, there was this.
This is just one small example,but it's a concrete one.
She had a friend who had reallycome through some difficult
things and had really had togrow up to too soon, and she had
a coat that was this reallyheavy fur coat, but it was
clearly secondhand and had thelining was torn, and Liberty
said, hey, I'll take that homeand my mom will mend it.
(45:50):
And of course I was glad to.
And later on I got to meet thefriend who was just such a
delightful, delightful personand I was so proud that she saw
a need.
And we know 14 year olds Ithink she was 14 at the time
they tend not to see thingslaying around the house, but she
noticed that and that reallymakes me proud.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
She noticed that and and her first I love, I love the
fact that her first thoughtwasn't we need to buy her a new
coat, but rather wait, my momknows how to fix that.
I mean that, that's so.
I think that's so beautiful,it's so empowering, it's it's
it's not shaming the torn coat,it's just simply saying wait, we
(46:36):
know how to fix that.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
Yes, yeah, I found that my children, through their
school, have really been animportant point of connection
right in the community.
I mean, that's an obvious thing.
I think a lot of us experiencethat.
But we happen to live close tothe middle school and the high
school, and last year more thanthis year.
But we had a lot of kids at ourhouse after school and I took a
(47:00):
lot of joy in being intentionalabout creating a place that's
safe.
Our house is not big, we don'thave fancy toys, electronics and
all that, but it was a placethey could come and know they
were safe and you know, and youfed them waffles, waffles and
(47:23):
popcorn, lots of popcorn andcookies, all the things.
But the thing is like, you know, we had kids.
She has friends in her friendgroup, a whole range of
backgrounds, and there are somewith a lot of needs, some who,
well, their identity puts themat high risk right now, and then
also kids from very privilegedbackgrounds and some of those
(47:43):
kids were the loneliest kids.
And I think of her, one friendwho I'd often give a ride home
at the end of the evening andshe would just sit in the car
and talk and I could tell shejust didn't want to go back in
the house and she finally did,and I just think that's
something to be aware of.
Also, I've talked with my sonabout what would happen if he is
(48:08):
with his friends of color andlaw enforcement comes around.
You know, and in the past we'vetalked about it's been in terms
of the cops, but I've made himaware that he has a level of
privilege and that he needs tobe aware of that and use it to
protect his friends if thesituation arises.
Be aware of that and use it toprotect his friends If, if, if
the situation arises and andwe've talked about not speaking
without an attorney presentwe've talked about all those
(48:30):
things and, and more recentlywe've been talking about what
happens if immigration shows up.
They've been spotted not toofar from our area here and I
want him to know what to do andhow to protect his friends If
that becomes an issue.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
You are such a wise mom like seriously.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
It's the least I mean .
I wish it could be so much more, but it's it's one thing we can
do.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
Right, you know, I think sometimes, whether it is
ice, whether it is a nosyneighbor, whomever it is, I
think the way we show up forother people is so important.
I think about a professor I had.
It was a ethics class and hewas talking about Huck Finn and
(49:19):
the way he rescued the slave.
Speaker 2 (49:31):
He rescued the slave and the tension that was there
in do I follow the rules or do Ifollow my own values, and this
was in the context of slaveryand the fugitive slave law.
Right Right when he would havebeen, it would have been illegal
to not report a runaway slaveand to give him a ride, like
didn't he get on his?
Oh yeah, huck, finn had a raftand he had a raft.
(49:51):
And he, yeah, and he left theslave on the raft and yeah, jim
rode with him down the yes andthis was was it back in 2016?
Speaker 1 (50:03):
have I been in school that long?
Was it in 2016, when there wasthat first mess with immigration
?
Like I think it was in thattimeframe?
I have been in school a longtime, my goodness, because not
soon.
Like soon after having thisconversation, he starts talking
about the illegals and howthat's a problem and we need to
(50:27):
do something about that.
And there were, like I don'tknow, 25 kids in this room and
or in this class, and obviouslynot all white, and so I remember
raising my hand and I'm sayingso.
Let's be clear here.
I appreciate the Huck Finnstory and understand the tension
(50:49):
that was involved there, andyou and I both agree he did the
right thing.
I said today we haveundocumented people who also
deserve safety.
We have undocumented people whoalso have needs.
I said I don't understand whywe applaud Huck Finn but we, in
(51:10):
turn, would report them.
I said can you help meunderstand how we get here?
Well, he kind of pointed outthat I was calling them
undocumented instead of illegaland went down that little road.
Oh, don't get me started on that.
And at one point he said, soyou would not report somebody.
(51:34):
And I like snorted, I'm likethere is no way I would report
an undocumented friend, anundocumented human.
Why would I?
I don't know how that'sdifferent.
I don't know, I don't either,and I think we need to get
really honest with what ourvalues are.
Just because it's a law or arule doesn't mean we have to
(51:56):
follow this.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
I mean, and especially for those of us it
doesn't mean, it's moral.
Speaker 1 (52:01):
Right, and for those of us that grew up conservative
Anabaptists, if there's onething we know how to do, it's we
know how to break rules.
Speaker 2 (52:07):
And we know how to get around the rules.
We know how to do this.
Speaker 1 (52:12):
And I don't understand why we feel like this
is a law we have to follow.
Speaker 2 (52:24):
Not when the welfare of human beings is at stake.
Like that's just.
Speaker 1 (52:29):
Also when people were legal yesterday, but now today
they're not.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
I mean when or when they have appealed for asylum as
refugees.
No, they don't have documents,but they have gone through the
process and let me just bereally.
Speaker 1 (52:48):
Let me be really clear here.
It's none of my business, right?
It's none of my businesswhether they're here legally or
not.
None of my business and people.
We don't ask this question.
You do not ask someone theirstatus If they want to share it
with you, that's anotherconversation.
You do not have any businessasking someone this.
Speaker 2 (53:46):
Yes gets said might serve or reach out or connect
with someone in our communitywho may be or not in a situation
like that or might be lonely,as we know there's.
So many are right theloneliness epidemic is something
we hear about all the time.
Just inviting someone for ameal, inviting them into our
home it might be a holiday, itmight just be a weeknight and
inviting them into our life,even when our house isn't
(54:08):
perfect or even when we don'thave a fancy meal, is really
where that authentic connectioncan happen and it can be so
meaningful for everyone, foreveryone involved.
You know, and I also like todream big.
I like your dreams Because I,for a long time, have had a
(54:29):
dream of developing a housingcooperative, especially for
families of young children, andthere are a million and one
different ways that somethinglike this could happen.
I can't make it happen by myselfand I keep thinking that at
some point I'll have enough timeto write the grants or do the
research to figure out how tomake this happen.
(54:49):
You know how can I buy a cheapold building and have it
renovated into some kind ofhousing cooperative, right?
I don't know.
But I can dream and you know, Idon't know where these kinds of
resources that we're talkingabout here can take us.
Maybe it'll just stay small andin our communities, but who
(55:11):
knows, maybe one day we can dosomething on a much larger scale
too, and I know you've got yourown ideas about creative
housing solutions.
Speaker 1 (55:21):
Yeah, the tiny house communities always kind of
intrigue me, like I think it issuch a fabulous way to build
community and it's such a neatway to provide housing but offer
a sense of of support andcommunity.
And I think it would be so coolto have, like you know, five
(55:46):
acres and you have your chickensand you have your gardens, and
I think you would have to have asection of them where you
Airbnb, just so that you canmake money as well to help fund
everything.
Because I thought about you know, I don't think I would want to
do it as a nonprofit.
(56:07):
I've decided I don't want thatfor many reasons but allowing
people to not just pay rent butbuild equity in their house so
that in time they can sell theirpart of it, take the equity and
go buy something larger and letthe next person have a turn.
But I think there's so manycreative ways we can do this and
(56:31):
I think about it.
You know, there's some of usthat are rattling around in big
houses with more space than wereally need and it breaks my
heart when I think about peoplewho are desperate for housing
and I think we can do more and Ithink we should do more.
Speaker 2 (56:48):
I mean, we have this, you know housing shortage
nationwide, at least affordableshortage.
No, let me rephrase that wehave a shortage of affordable
housing.
There's not a housing shortage.
In Manhattan, New York City,there are more empty luxury
apartments than homeless peopleon the street.
We don't have a housingshortage.
(57:09):
We have affordable housingshortage.
Because?
Well, because why?
You know?
I think it can feel silly todream big, but I think it's also
important to remember that theworld as we know it is not the
only way to be.
I mean, look at what happenedin March of 2020 and how quickly
(57:31):
we figured out how to changethings really, really fast, and
I think that is such a reminderthat, no matter how unchangeable
the world can seem at one time,things can change very quickly,
and whether it's for the goodor bad.
I hope we're there to do thekind of thing that may or may
(57:52):
not make a difference, but thatwe can look back on with pride
and know that how we wereinvolved, what we did, was true
to our values.
Speaker 1 (58:01):
And I think that right there is like the crux of
it all thinking about our valuesand aligning ourselves with
that.
In closing, I follow a Reverend, benjamin Kremer I think it's
pronounced Kremer, c-r-e-m-e-r,and today he had a post he wrote
(58:22):
salvation belongs to God, notto us.
Woe to us who think we are theones who know better than God
about who should be included inGod's work of salvation.
We are actually living in atime where some Christians see
mercy as offensive, empathy as asin, and diversity, equity and
inclusion as a threat.
Woe to those who call evil goodand good evil, who put darkness
(58:46):
for light and light fordarkness.
Isaiah 520.
And there was one of thecomments that really kind of
grabbed my attention and I likedthe way it was worded.
He wrote Jonathan wrote I havealways said that the holy books,
the Bible, the Quran, whatever,are just claims.
They are not evidence.
They are just claims.
(59:06):
The evidence comes from thewords, actions and deeds of the
followers of that faith.
Whether fair or not,unbelievers see the nature of
God in the evidence of thoseclaims, through the words,
actions and deeds of thefollowers.
If Christians act with hate,that is how the biblical God is
viewed and you know, this isn'tjust America who's watching.
(59:28):
The whole world is watching andpaying attention to how we are
doing.
Speaker 2 (59:36):
And to how well we are living up to this national
reputation of protecting humanrights.
Speaker 1 (59:44):
And if this is the best that Christians can do, I
think we're screwed.
Speaker 2 (59:51):
So it's up to us, the defectors, to go out.
Speaker 1 (59:56):
And make a difference and be different.
Speaker 2 (59:58):
And be different.
Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
Like what are the values that we say we hold?
What are the values we claim?
Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
Like what are the values that we say we hold, what
are the values we claim?
We don't have to have areligious identity to live those
out and I think that's a reallyhopeful thing.
And I think many of us,wherever we fall on the
religious identificationspectrum I don't know spectrum's
not even complex enough but,like, wherever we fall in our
faith identity, we can connecton these values.
Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
Oh, absolutely, and.
Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
I think that's what matters and I think, at a time
when many of us might feel angerand frustration and despair,
that's important to me.
Speaker 1 (01:00:51):
Thank you for spending time with us today.
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 2 (01:00:58):
What are your thoughts about college and
recovery from high demandreligion?
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences and we
want to talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atuncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom.
That's uncoveredlifebeyond atgmailcom.
Speaker 1 (01:01:18):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode.
Speaker 2 (01:01:31):
Until next time stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward.
Thank you.
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