March 23, 2025 • 45 mins
Financial autonomy is crucial to everyone's wellbeing, but what happens when one partner refuses to engage in conversations about money? We explore the dynamics of financial stonewalling and share practical strategies for taking ownership of your adult responsibilities.
• Financial issues can become control mechanisms when one partner refuses to engage in good faith
• Both men and women have been socialized to question women's financial abilities and understanding
• Red flags include: lack of access to accounts, asking for money like an allowance, monitored spending, refusal to share information
• Religious contexts often use spiritual language to validate financial dependence and lack of autonomy
• Taking steps toward financial independence isn't being sneaky—it's being smart
• Running your credit report helps identify accounts in your name you may not be aware of
• Opening your own bank account provides security and independence
• Understanding your own values helps guide decision-making when faced with resistance
• Having financial options doesn't mean planning to leave—it means staying by choice, not necessity
• A financially independent woman isn't a threat—she's simply someone who refuses to be stuck
Join us next time to discuss practical ways a stay-at-home parent can build financial autonomy--beyond the obvious ways like winning the lottery!
Resources We Mentioned in the Show (or should have)
What is Financial Abuse? (The Hotline)
Learn about your credit report and how to get a copy (USAGov)
Your Money Matters: A Guide to Financial Independence for Women
Financial Freedom: Women, Money, and Domestic Abuse
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
This is Rebecca and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path Along the
way, we've uncovered a fewinsights we want to share with
fellow travelers.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up, we are here to cheeryou on and assure you that the
best is yet to come.
Welcome to Uncovered LifeBeyond.
Hello everyone, Welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.
(01:07):
This is Naomi and this isRebecca.
So the last few episodes we'vebeen talking about financial
literacy, financial autonomy andsome of the barriers to that.
In our last episode, we talkedabout the breadwinner versus the
stay-at-home parent in terms ofwho's supporting whom, because
(01:28):
that's something that is we'requestioning.
We're calling into question theway that some of those
conversations are framed, but itseemed important that we also
talk about what happens when, orhow do we handle it when we are
getting stonewalled, when weare in a situation where we're
(01:49):
wanting to be a team and we'rewanting to achieve financial
equity, financial autonomy, butwe are dealing with someone
who's not on the same page or iscertainly not as motivated as
we are.
What do we do then?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
I think in any conversation that's tough,
whether it's finances, whetherit is about faith, whether it is
about where you want to go outto eat.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Go out for a date.
That's what I was going to saytoo.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Like I think, in any I think in any situation where
there's that stonewall effectgoing on.
That's just really difficult.
And something I'm learning is,if someone isn't engaging in
good faith, oftentimes I feltlike it was my responsibility to
somehow communicate moreclearly.
(02:41):
Or, you know, I would think,okay, well, let's try it from
this angle or let's try this,and sometimes it's not my
problem to fix.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Sometimes the strategy doesn't make a
difference, right, right.
Yeah, I'm not sure if Imentioned last week, but I've
been listening to Terry Real'swork and he is a couples
therapist that I don't knowwhere he's been hiding all this
time, but I really appreciatethe way he addresses head on the
ways that men and women areoften socialized to behave and
(03:13):
how that brings a particularpower dynamic into relationships
.
And he addresses that head on.
And he talks about how both menand women have been socialized
to question and second guessanything a woman says.
And I think we've both seenexamples where men are
conditioned to just not hearwomen.
(03:34):
And we're talking good men, butgood guys, and it doesn't become
a personal character flaw untilsomeone is refusing to
acknowledge it and address it.
But it is really up until thatpoint.
It's the way society hasconditioned us to interact.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Yeah, I'm excited to read listen to Terry Ruehl's
work, just from things you'vesaid.
So thank you for introducing usto this.
I do think it's reallyimportant and I've been
reminding myself this so manytimes in conversations, and
(04:12):
particularly about this maleversus female type thing.
I try so hard to approach itfrom the assumption that both
parties are truly trying tofigure it out.
We've just been given a lot ofshitty advice.
I mean, when I think about someof the marriage books that I
was eating, consuming when wefirst got married, I'm like holy
(04:37):
cow, how did we even survive?
There is some shitty advice outthere that's packaged as if it
is the solution to all of ourproblems.
As always, I think the personwho's most uncomfortable in the
relationship is going to be thefirst one to start pulling at
the threads, and I guess I wouldjust like to take the
(05:00):
opportunity to suggest if yourpartner is pulling at threads
and it makes you feeluncomfortable, just lean into
that discomfort, sometimescomfort isn't.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Are you saying that sometimes comfort is more about
familiarity than help?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Yeah, and sometimes comfort isn't good, I mean
sometimes comfort is destructive.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Sometimes comfort for one person is pain or even harm
for another person.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Right and sometimes even the comfort for the person
who's benefiting from it isdamaging.
Poking at what feels like yourframe of comfort and what you
(05:54):
thought you were hanging on tojust lean into it.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
And if someone else is telling you that they're not
comfortable about something, Ithink we really need to pay
attention Right, and especiallywhen that's someone who has less
power in a situation Exactly,and I think that wherever we
stand on that, in that powerdynamic, I think we owe it to
(06:20):
ourselves to approach theseconversations with assuming the
best for everyone.
But when someone shows us thatthey aren't interested in
understanding us, they aren'tinterested in financial autonomy
for you, that's importantinformation to recognize as well
(06:41):
, and that's really thesituation we want to talk about
today.
And so I think it's the kind ofthing where, on one hand,
arguments about money andmarriage very normal or in
partnerships, but we're nottalking about kind of garden
variety disagreements.
We're talking about whensomeone is stonewalling and
(07:02):
refusing to have a conversation.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Someone is stonewalling and refusing to
have a conversation, refusing toaddress your concerns in a way
that makes you feel heard, right, and the thing is it's so
embedded in our DNA.
Like men and you referencedthis earlier men are conditioned
not to hear women, and forPete's sake, I mean we have all.
If we grew up in theconservative Anabaptist world,
(07:29):
we know what men's meetings are,where they talk probably about
what kind of covering the womenshould be wearing or not wearing
.
Why is it that men arediscussing issues that
specifically affect women?
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
So we have systems here that we're pushing against
Right Structures.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Right.
One example, a very traditionalexample, of this kind of
scenario is when the wife isstaying home with children, and
this is something that she andher husband both agree on, and
because then the husband's thebreadwinner, it can often be the
(08:10):
case that he takes full controlof the finances.
Now, obviously, this is notalways the case, but we're
talking about situations whereit is and where maybe she'll
receive a weekly allowance forgroceries, household needs, but
you know, it's always a stretch,and if she, whenever she talks
about the needs that go beyondthat, he's getting frustrated
(08:33):
and saying things like I workhard for this money, you should
be able to manage better.
And when she wants to open ajoint account, he refuses,
telling her oh, she just doesn'tunderstand finances, he'll
handle everything.
And then she might later findthat he's been hiding things
from her, and that can be awhole or anything from bills
that haven't been paid togambling debts to credit card
(08:57):
accounts in her name.
It can be a whole range ofthings.
Or you know that he is spendingmoney on himself while he's
making her feel guilty forneeding basic necessities.
And of course, then when thiskind of situation happens in a
religious setting, in a reallyconservative, religious, setting
, high demand.
Usually there will be a wholecloak of spirituality that will
(09:21):
be layered over it that willvalidate her dependence,
validate her lack of financialautonomy and will kind of make
her the villain for questioningthe status quo.
Have you seen?
Are you familiar with that kindof thing?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Oh yeah, right, because then it becomes not just
a conversation about you andyour husband's relationship, but
it becomes this thing aboutneeding to trust your husband's
wisdom or Trust God to speakthrough your husband.
Yes, and you pray about yourconcerns.
You don't, you know, speakdirectly to your husband about
(10:01):
those concerns.
You certainly don't nagdirectly to your husband about
those concerns.
You certainly don't nag.
We need to be a Proverbs 31woman and be more resourceful
and be more content.
So, yeah, there's this wholeother element to it that can
almost go from financial abuse,neglect to spiritual abuse.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Oh, yeah and gaslighting Right, and along
with what you're talking aboutthere, there's often this idea
that men are better at handlingmoney.
Women don't understand, and Ithink it's really easy for women
to feel dismissed or feel or tobe intimidated when, say, the
controlling partner pulls outall the big words and you know,
(10:47):
and intimidates themintentionally, intimidates them
by their lack of financialliteracy.
And I think we're here to saythat if you can ask the question
, you can understand the answerand, as a legally responsible
adult, you will be heldaccountable for what your
partner does legally.
As a legally responsible adult,you will be held accountable
for what your partner doeslegally, and so it's only
prudent for an adult to know,for us as adults to know what we
(11:11):
could be held liable for andwhat risks are being taken in
our name.
Like that is not.
That's basic responsibility,taking basic responsibility for
ourselves, and the very factthat someone is not taking your
question seriously should because for concern.
We want you to know that ifyou're not getting answers to
your questions, please keepasking.
(11:33):
They're more important thanever.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think it is so important that
we educate ourselves and weeducate our kids.
Huge advocate of getting yourkids involved in their own
finances and helping themunderstand the terminology and
the processes as well, because Idon't want to raise children
(11:58):
who assume that the male isbetter with finances than the
female or that the female can'tunderstand certain terminology.
And so, as much as possible, Ithink it is so important to
introduce our kids to that aswell and certainly certainly
(12:19):
educate ourselves.
So when does the provider quotebecome the financial gatekeeper
?
How do we know if the financialsetup is unfair?
Speaker 1 (12:31):
I think this is a really good question.
It's important to define whatwe're talking about.
Thehotlineorg is a website forfolks dealing with domestic
violence, domestic abuse of manydifferent kinds, and they list
some examples, but essentiallyit is about financial abuse is
(12:51):
rooted in the desire of onepartner to have power and
control over the other, and whois trying to limit the options
of their partner through whetherit's their job or some other
kind of income stream or theiraccess to shared family finances
.
I think some red flags that wecan think about are things like
(13:14):
if one partner doesn't haveaccess to financial accounts, or
if they have to ask for moneylike a child asking for an
allowance, and they feel like achild asking for an allowance,
and they feel like a childasking for an allowance.
When your spending is monitoredor restricted without discussion
, when it's not like a mutualdiscussion, when a partner
(13:36):
refuses to share financialinformation, just when you have
that feeling of anxiety orpowerlessness about money
decisions and you feel likeyou're just not part of the
conversation.
All those are red flags thatyou are not experiencing
financial autonomy and thatthere's a problem that needs to
(13:57):
be addressed.
Our message for anyone who isexperiencing this is to say
you're not alone, you haveoptions.
Many of us are socialized totry to fix a situation like this
by trying to get the otherperson to change, but by being
nicer to them or being moreaccommodating or, as you were
saying earlier, Rebecca,phrasing it a different way,
(14:17):
coming at it from a differentapproach.
But the idea that we can changesomeone else who is not
operating in good faith is anapproach that typically only
works in sermon illustrations.
In real life, that doesn'tusually work Right.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Right, and this is, I think, where this whole notion
of boundaries kind of getsfascinating, because we often
think about boundaries being athing of I.
Don't allow you to do that, andno.
Boundaries are all about what Iaccept or how I'm going to
engage or how I'm going to showup, and sometimes the more
(15:00):
productive approach is just thatto change how I engage with the
situation.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
I think that point about boundaries being a matter
of controlling how I'm showingup in a situation is so powerful
when our guiding light in thoseboundaries is what our personal
values are, rather than tryingto get somebody else to change.
That's when so many new optionscan open up, and I would just
(15:31):
encourage anyone in thissituation who is feeling trapped
or who is feeling recognizingthese red flags in their
situation.
Before you rush in demanding achange, I would encourage you to
take some time to think,reflect, journal, pray if that's
(15:56):
helpful for you, whatever thatcan help you feel more settled,
more like yourself, and to dosome deep soul searching about
what will life likely look likein, say, 5, 10, 15 years if you
go along with the status quo,and is that what you want for
yourself and your loved ones,your children?
What would you want life tolook like in five, 10, 15 years?
(16:16):
What steps could get youstarted on that path?
And what this can do is helpclarify if this situation with
the red flags that you're in now, where is that taking you
likely and is that where youwant to go?
And one other thing that can bepart of an exercise like this is
(16:37):
to identify the values that areguiding you in this, the ones
that are most important, andI'll link to, we'll link to a
values chart in the show notes.
But and all these values aregood and if you're like me,
you're going to feel acompulsion to like, check all of
them, but just just check threeor five.
You know three to five that aremost relevant in as it relates
(16:58):
to your financial, yourfinancial future, and use that
as your center for whatever itis that you do next, because you
might have to make some changes.
If you've been pretty hands-off, this might this values
clarification might motivate youto step up, to speak up, and it
(17:19):
can feel awkward and unfamiliarat first when you are doing
that for the first time, andthat's okay.
It doesn't mean you're doing itwrong.
It means you're learning andgrowing and being clear about
what matters to you.
Being clear about your valuescan help power your confidence
when you're swimming upstream ina situation like this.
(17:41):
So, rebecca, let's say someoneis in a situation, they're
recognizing these red flags,they've done some deep soul
searching and I have a clearersense of what really, really
deep down, matters to them andhow they want their life to look
in 5, 10, 15 years.
What are some practical stepssomeone might want to explore as
(18:06):
they are seeking financialautonomy?
Speaker 2 (18:11):
I think it's important to as much as you can
to get the full picture andgathering information that you
can, whether it's bankstatements, tax returns, that
type of thing.
But if your hands are tied andyou can't do that, everyone can
run their own credit report, andthat is a really important
(18:33):
place, I think, to start just tofind out what accounts are
opened in your name and if thereare accounts that are opened
that you're not aware of.
And I think that's a veryimportant place to start, and
there will be a link for that inthe show notes too.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
And this is something that's probably best done
quietly when you're dealing witha situation that's full of red
flags.
Right, right, we'll talk aboutthe guilt that, the feelings of
guilt that can come up aboutbeing, quote unquote, secretive
about this.
We'll talk about that in aminute, right?
Speaker 2 (19:10):
I am also a huge advocate that women should have
their own accounts Like.
I am absolutely convinced ofthis, and it's a small way to
start building your financialindependence.
I recently heard about a bankerwho had Amish women even coming
in and asking to secretly openup account and asking how they
(19:31):
can do it to be safe from theirspouse finding out, and I know
that the first thing that comesto my mind even as I say this is
so we are upset that our spousehas accounts that we don't know
about.
So what do we do?
Turn around and do the exactsame thing, and you know that
(19:52):
that can feel wrong.
Trust me on this one it's notthe same thing.
This is about your safety.
This is about your independence, and don't let that get in your
way.
Don't let that get in your way.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
And once you have that personal bank account, then
when someone gives you abirthday gift or you have some
windfall that comes inunexpected, you've got a place
to put it and you've got asecure place to put it.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Right, and I think we women are so resourceful.
You can figure out ways to havea side hustle, sell things on
marketplace, what be it?
You can come up with ways, andI think it's important to pursue
those options.
And then, most of all, findyour support systems.
Talk to trusted friends andfamily and pay attention when
you're having thoseconversations.
It is your body's job to keepyou safe, so pay attention to
(20:53):
what signals you're receiving.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Right, because what can be so tricky in some of
these situations is that familymembers that you would hope
would be supportive of someonein a situation like this, for
whatever reason, might not besupportive and they might end up
colluding with the otherpartner out of a false sense of
loyalty.
So I think, being really clearabout who you can trust and
(21:20):
testing it in small ways beforeyou trust them with big
information and I think one way,one data point, one detail to
pay attention to is do theybelieve you?
Like, if you say something thatindicates there's some tension
or that there's some distress inyour home or in your
(21:41):
partnership, and they seem todoubt your word, seem to doubt
your experience, that's probablynot going to be a trusted
person.
But keep talking until you findthose trusted people, and I
think often in situations likethis, our support will come from
places where we don't expect it.
So keep looking for them untilyou find them.
(22:01):
And there are also freefinancial counseling and legal
advice services out there.
I think it's easy to see thosekinds of free financial
counseling or legal adviceservices as something that's for
other people out there, butit's for everyone and it's
important to recognize that justbecause you are consulting and
(22:23):
you're getting information doesnot mean you're getting ready to
go blow everything up or youknow file for divorce or
whatever it is that someonemight fear that you're going to,
you know, but just gatheringinformation.
Just see it as gatheringinformation that is powerful and
you might decide you're notgoing to change anything major,
(22:45):
but getting the information isgoing to allow you to make an
informed decision.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
The other thing with gathering information is it
gives you confidence and itgives you a sense of
understanding of where you're at.
And sometimes just that senseof confidence and understanding
forces your partner to engage.
And while that isn'tnecessarily the best way to get
(23:14):
there, maybe this is your way toget there.
So gather that information andfeel confident about what you're
learning.
Even if it's scary, you canstill have confidence because at
least you know what you'redealing with.
And if it's scary, you canstill have confidence because at
least you know what you'redealing with and it's not this
mystery.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Right right and ask questions until you do Right
Understand, yeah, and this isnot unreasonable.
This is what a normalfunctioning adult would do and,
I think, along the way, givinggrace to yourself when you do
make mistakes.
You know, when you feelembarrassment for asking the
dumb questions.
First of all, they're not dumb,but even if you do make
(23:52):
financial decisions, you'llregret learning from them moving
on.
That is not God's judgment onyou.
That is not an invalidation ofyour desire for financial
autonomy.
This is life.
This is life, and an honestmistake is nothing that someone
needs to feel shame over, and Ithink that fear of being shamed
(24:14):
is something that's often heldover our heads and often used to
control us, because the idea islike if we don't do something
wrong, then we are worthy ofdignity, if we do all the right
things, then we're worthy of, weearn dignity.
And I think we can have so muchconfidence in realizing no, no,
everybody deserves to betreated with dignity and respect
(24:36):
, regardless of what mistakesthey might make, regardless of
what information they might nothave, regardless of whether or
not your venture is successful.
You are not obligated to stayin a situation where your
dignity and your safety is notrespected and you don't need to
earn that.
That is a starting point andyou're not being unreasonable
(24:58):
for expecting that.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Somewhere I read that some of us come to the table
feeling like we aren't wanted,so we come up with ways to be
needed, and no one should haveto be in a relationship simply
because you're needed.
You should be wanted there.
That is part of what arelationship looks like, what a
(25:24):
healthy relationship looks like.
That made me pause and justthink about the way I show up
and your dignity matters, yourpersonhood matters and again, I
think sometimes thoseobservations are just data
points, data collection, and youdeserve to be wanted in the
(25:48):
relationship and in these highconflict scenarios.
I think it's so important alsothat your priority should be to
stay in that upstairs brain,rather than automatically
succumbing to your downstairsbrain, and remember to breathe,
take a breath, stay hydrated,refuse to make a decision that
(26:11):
someone else is forcing on you.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Follow your gut, know what you know see what you see,
and I think it can be hard toknow how to follow our gut when
it's not something we've beenpracticing a lot.
But that's where being clearabout what matters to us, being
clear about our values, havinggathered that information, is
(26:33):
what can power us through that.
And I think, recognizing thatwhen the pressure is being put
on us, it's so easy to go intofight or flight, it's so easy to
go into fight or flight, it'sso easy to shut down or you know
, whatever our trauma responseis to a high conflict situation.
But I think the more highconflict it is, the more tense
(26:56):
it is, the less interested theother person is in working with
us and meeting us halfway, themore we need to have those ways
of calming ourselves and ofstaying extremely clear about
what it is we want out of asituation and recognizing what
(27:18):
the situation is that we'redealing with.
So what if we've done all this,taken all these steps and in
the best case scenario, apartner might say oh, I see
they're serious about this.
Okay, I'm willing to talk.
But what if that doesn't happen?
What if the partner still won'tengage?
What are some options thatmight be recommended and I might
(27:43):
have some hot takes on this,then what?
Speaker 2 (27:49):
did and I might have some hot takes on this then what
you know, I think it's soimportant for each person in
this situation to figure out forthemselves what they want to do
.
As much as I'm not an advocatefor you have to stay, neither am
I an advocate for you have togo, you have to stay.
Neither am I an advocate foryou have to go.
I think at this point, when youknow and see the picture or the
(28:12):
situation you're in, that alonecan give you a place to start.
You might want to sit on it fora year and just observe,
(28:32):
observe.
I know relationships that havekind of reached that segue point
where she kind of had to figureout independently how to
survive.
He kept doing his thing.
She was aware enough to ensurethat he wasn't like opening up
accounts in her name anymore.
Like that at least quit.
And I think that is bottom line.
Like I just don't think anyonehas any business opening
accounts in a spouse's nameunknowingly.
(28:57):
But don't let other people tellyou what you need to do.
You can gather advice, butyou're not looking to someone
else to make a decision for you.
Educate yourself, follow yourgut.
It's okay to sit and listen andwatch and observe.
It's okay to do that, but Ithink each of us deserves to
(29:20):
make our own decisions withinthat.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
But it's not necessarily your job to fix the
partner Right, and I think thisis a point where a lot of advice
would be oh, have you gone tocounseling, have you gone to
mediation?
But the more time goes on, themore I look askance at a lot of
couples counseling when youdon't have both people operating
(29:47):
in good faith and that can beeven more damaging.
So if someone is refusing toengage, it might be past the
point that a counselor ormediator can do much good and
that's for each individual todecide, and maybe it would still
(30:08):
be useful just to hear anoutside perspective.
But I don't want to suggestthat that's like some kind of
panacea, I just want to throwthat out there.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Oh, I think that that's so important because so
often we have situations wherewomen have been in counseling
for years and then all of asudden, they reach their limit
and it's like, okay, and thenguess what's next on the plate?
Oh, let's do marriagecounseling.
When one partner has been incounseling for years and the
(30:39):
answer is now we're ready formarriage counseling, I think
that's just offensive.
Both parties need to do theirown work.
Both parties need to do theirown work.
Both parties need to gain theirown awareness.
And if your spouse, yourpartner, has not been in therapy
and you've been in therapy,going into couples therapy, I
(31:00):
just think is damning.
Oftentimes the counselor willtry and not take sides.
Oftentimes the counselor willtry and not take sides.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
And often even professionals, will defer to the
most toxic person in the room.
And then there's this tensionwhere the therapist is trying to
keep the most toxic person inthe room engaged, and so they do
that by deferring to them.
And so, even though one personhas been bending over backwards,
to make the relationship workto treat everybody equally, now
we have to talk about howeverybody's equally at fault,
(31:34):
equally at fault, equally atfault.
It's just, it's so, it'sridiculous, and I just would not
wish that on anyone.
So can we talk about some ofthose fears, some of those guilt
trips that are likely going tobe running teaching that goes
against our move towardfinancial autonomy.
(32:11):
When all our programming isbased on those voices, it can be
really hard to do somethingdifferent.
So let's hit some of those headon and let's deconstruct those
guilt trips.
So I think we agree that beingprepared isn't being sneaky,
it's smart.
(32:31):
Once we have acknowledged we'rein a situation with lots of
these red flags, we realize wedo not have financial autonomy
and we radically accept that andsay this is the situation that
I'm in.
Acting on it from thatperspective, then, is not being
sneaky, it's just being smart.
And having an emergency funddoesn't mean that we're planning
(32:53):
to crash our car.
Keeping a first aid kit doesn'tmean we're planning to break a
leg.
Squirreling away a little moneydoesn't mean you're planning to
run away and live off the gridor whatever.
It just means life happens andyou deserve options.
Having some cash tucked awaycan give you those options.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Right and I think so often.
At least there's some of uswho've been taught that.
You know you have to be honest,you cannot lie, you have to be
truthful, and I remember, atcertain points in different
relationships, realizing that Iwas the only one showing up,
being fully honest, and that itwas used against you.
(33:35):
And at some level you need tomeet the energy that's coming
your way and showing up andtrusting relationships, issues
that have harmed you over andover again.
Showing up and trusting thosesame situations is not going to
(33:56):
serve you, it's not going toserve your family, it's not
going to serve your kids.
So look at ways that you canshow up differently and maybe
even more independently, andit's always interesting to me
how you know a good wife.
A submissive wife is expectedto show up in ways that the
(34:17):
husbands never do.
I think it's okay to thinkabout the rules and the scripts
that have been given to femalesas opposed to males, and at some
point, if it's not good for thegoose, it's not good for the
gander either.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
After all, marriage should be a partnership, not a
hostage situation, and I thinkwhen we look at the reality of
who is expected to be loyal towhom so often, it starts to look
a whole lot more like a hostagesituation rather than a
partnership.
What about trust?
What about someone who feelsguilty because having private
(34:54):
money, feels like they'rebreaking trust?
What do you say to someone likethat?
Speaker 2 (34:59):
I think sometimes we're expected to trust
situations that aren'ttrustworthy.
We're expected to trust leadersthat aren't trustworthy, and I
think we so desperately need tolearn to trust ourselves first
of all.
We so desperately need to learnto trust ourselves first of all
.
And if you find yourself in arelationship or in a situation
(35:24):
where trust isn't coming orexpected to flow both ways, you
cannot.
Trust can't exist there.
Trust can't be there.
Trust is not a one-way street.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Not in a marriage or in a partnership.
Trust is not a one-way street,not in a marriage or in a
partnership.
Well, and isn't it a biggerbetrayal for one spouse to keep
the other one financiallypowerless?
I mean, if one partner is notsharing financial access with
the other one, they're the onesbeing secretive.
And if you were in an equalpartnership would this even be
(35:53):
an issue.
And I think those kinds ofquestions can kind of bring to
light the one-way trust thatyou're talking about there.
And if someone feels like theyhave to hide money to have
financial freedom, that's right.
There is a sign that somethingis off.
That goes much deeper than howthey're addressing the situation
.
So I think another concernmight be that this is someone
(36:18):
who is planning an escape, andthat can be seen as an act of
disloyalty.
But I think of Tia Leving'sstory and the many women who
have been in situations likethat.
The thing is, you're not, it'snot about planning to leave.
I think 99% of the women inthose situations want the
(36:39):
situation to resolve.
They want to stay.
They leave when it becomesabout survival and so having
financial autonomy.
It doesn't mean you'repreparing for divorce.
It means you're staying eventhough you could leave.
But also it means that in anemergency, you're prepared, you
(37:00):
are giving yourself power tomake choices, not just for
yourself, but if you havechildren that you're responsible
for, you're ensuring that, nomatter what happens, you will be
okay.
And that is simpleself-preservation.
And I think it's important torecognize how often in these
communities women arediscouraged, if not punished,
for engaging in the most basicacts of self-preservation.
(37:24):
So, whether or not someoneleaves the marriage, life
happens, illness happens, jobloss happens, accidents happen.
Any of these scenarios couldleave a person and their
children in unnecessarilydifficult situations if they're
not preparing.
But even if all those liferealities didn't exist, the
(37:46):
bottom line is each of usdeserve financial autonomy.
Taking moves, even if they'recovert, even if they are done
quietly, even if they are doneindependently, isn't being
sneaky, it's being smart, it'snot betraying anyone, it's about
protecting yourself and thepeople you are responsible for.
(38:07):
It's not a crime, it's commonsense.
And what responsible adultdoesn't plan ahead?
At the end of the day, afinancially independent woman is
not a threat.
She's just a woman who refusesto be stuck.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Right, and there's no shame for wanting equality, for
wanting fairness and forwanting financial security In
our household.
Matt pays the bills, he doesmost of the financial managing.
At the same time, I know how toget into any of the accounts, I
(38:46):
know how to talk to ourfinancial advisor and in many
ways I don't think I realizedhow perhaps unusual that is.
I realized how perhaps unusualthat is and I would like to
empower more relationships to bethat way.
And if you happen to be a manlistening to this conversation
(39:07):
this long, first of all, thankyou.
Props to you Exactly.
But more importantly, there hasto be enough space in a
relationship for both of yourcomfort, for both parties to be
comfortable, for both parties tobe confident, for both parties
(39:29):
to be engaged and have theirneeds met.
Right, and I can nearly promiseyou that if you lean into the
conversations your spouse wantsto have and you can figure out a
way to do that without feelingthreatened, your life is going
(39:52):
to be better too.
Your relationship is going tobe better.
You will be happier, and Iwould also like to suggest that
you do that sooner rather thanlater.
There's a certain level offrustration that can happen when
a spouse is asking and askingand asking for something for
(40:14):
years and nothing changes untilall of a sudden that spouse is
exhausted and done and then, allof a sudden, changes start
occurring.
These were changes that couldhave probably happened 10 years
ago, and here we are, and sothere's also that level of grief
(40:34):
that I've seen happen and withthat comes a sense of betrayal
and you know, like that, why didit take so long?
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Right, right, and that, and with that comes you
risk bringing resentment intoyour relationship and that's
toxic, that is so toxic.
I'm so glad you made that pointBecause I I think, because I
think that sometimes the levelof financial autonomy that more
women have in this generationright, that's unprecedented
(41:05):
compared to previous generationsin some sectors is framed as
disempowering to men.
But I just want to assure allthe men, all the men listening
out there, um, the men who arelistening, and again, hats off
to you.
What would it be like to beliked, Not because you bring a
(41:28):
paycheck, because, but becauseyour wife and your kids just
like being around you?
What if they just like youbecause you are a warm and
accepting and engaged person?
What if it has nothing to dowith the money you can provide?
For centuries and centuries,men as the breadwinner have been
(41:52):
framed as they haven't neededto be likable because everyone
was financially dependent onthem.
The rest of the family isfinancially dependent on them.
But this is an opportunity tobe valued for more than just
your paycheck.
This is an opportunity to bevalued for who you are and for
being part of a team, for beingpart of a really dynamic and
(42:18):
healthy relationship and family.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Right and for sure.
This is not about male versusfemale, husband versus wife.
Males are bad, whatever.
It's not about that.
It's about many of us, and Ithink we said this in the
beginning.
Many of us have been fed really, really shitty guidelines and
(42:44):
rules and advice.
We've been given that from bothsides, and it's an invitation
to reconsider some of thosescripts that some of us just
assume are the way to live, andit's an invitation to reconsider
that.
It's an invitation to look atthat and look at the ways that
(43:08):
maybe we can make changes thatnot only benefit us but benefit
future generations not onlybenefit us but benefit future
generations.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
Absolutely, absolutely so.
In our next episode, we'regoing to be looking at what are
some ways that a stay-at-homeparent can build financial
autonomy aside from winning thelottery and I wish we could tell
you that part.
But we have some very practicalsteps that we want to share
(43:42):
that can help ensure that,whether you're a stay-at-home
parent or working outside thehome with a 401k, either way,
you have access to financialresources access to financial
resources, to financial autonomy.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
So we would love to hear from you what are you
struggling with or what have youbeen thinking about, or maybe
what advice would you have forsomeone in this situation?
What's something that you havedone personally that has made a
difference in your life?
Speaker 1 (44:14):
We'd love for this to be a community where we really
support each other in being trueto ourselves and exploring all
that life has to offer.
Is that too cheesy?
Thanks everyone, it's beengreat chatting and we'll see you
next time.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
Thank you for spending time with us today.
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
What are your thoughts about college and
recovery from high demandreligion?
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences and we
want to talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atuncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom.
That's uncoveredlifebeyond atgmailcom.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
Until next time stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward.
Thank you.
This is Rebecca and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path Along the
way, we've uncovered a fewinsights we want to share with
fellow travelers.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up, we are here to cheeryou on and assure you that the
best is yet to come.
Welcome to Uncovered LifeBeyond.
Hello everyone, Welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.
(01:07):
This is Naomi and this isRebecca.
So the last few episodes we'vebeen talking about financial
literacy, financial autonomy andsome of the barriers to that.
In our last episode, we talkedabout the breadwinner versus the
stay-at-home parent in terms ofwho's supporting whom, because
(01:28):
that's something that is we'requestioning.
We're calling into question theway that some of those
conversations are framed, but itseemed important that we also
talk about what happens when, orhow do we handle it when we are
getting stonewalled, when weare in a situation where we're
(01:49):
wanting to be a team and we'rewanting to achieve financial
equity, financial autonomy, butwe are dealing with someone
who's not on the same page or iscertainly not as motivated as
we are.
What do we do then?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
I think in any conversation that's tough,
whether it's finances, whetherit is about faith, whether it is
about where you want to go outto eat.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Go out for a date.
That's what I was going to saytoo.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Like I think, in any I think in any situation where
there's that stonewall effectgoing on.
That's just really difficult.
And something I'm learning is,if someone isn't engaging in
good faith, oftentimes I feltlike it was my responsibility to
somehow communicate moreclearly.
(02:41):
Or, you know, I would think,okay, well, let's try it from
this angle or let's try this,and sometimes it's not my
problem to fix.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Sometimes the strategy doesn't make a
difference, right, right.
Yeah, I'm not sure if Imentioned last week, but I've
been listening to Terry Real'swork and he is a couples
therapist that I don't knowwhere he's been hiding all this
time, but I really appreciatethe way he addresses head on the
ways that men and women areoften socialized to behave and
(03:13):
how that brings a particularpower dynamic into relationships
.
And he addresses that head on.
And he talks about how both menand women have been socialized
to question and second guessanything a woman says.
And I think we've both seenexamples where men are
conditioned to just not hearwomen.
(03:34):
And we're talking good men, butgood guys, and it doesn't become
a personal character flaw untilsomeone is refusing to
acknowledge it and address it.
But it is really up until thatpoint.
It's the way society hasconditioned us to interact.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Yeah, I'm excited to read listen to Terry Ruehl's
work, just from things you'vesaid.
So thank you for introducing usto this.
I do think it's reallyimportant and I've been
reminding myself this so manytimes in conversations, and
(04:12):
particularly about this maleversus female type thing.
I try so hard to approach itfrom the assumption that both
parties are truly trying tofigure it out.
We've just been given a lot ofshitty advice.
I mean, when I think about someof the marriage books that I
was eating, consuming when wefirst got married, I'm like holy
(04:37):
cow, how did we even survive?
There is some shitty advice outthere that's packaged as if it
is the solution to all of ourproblems.
As always, I think the personwho's most uncomfortable in the
relationship is going to be thefirst one to start pulling at
the threads, and I guess I wouldjust like to take the
(05:00):
opportunity to suggest if yourpartner is pulling at threads
and it makes you feeluncomfortable, just lean into
that discomfort, sometimescomfort isn't.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Are you saying that sometimes comfort is more about
familiarity than help?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Yeah, and sometimes comfort isn't good, I mean
sometimes comfort is destructive.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Sometimes comfort for one person is pain or even harm
for another person.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Right and sometimes even the comfort for the person
who's benefiting from it isdamaging.
Poking at what feels like yourframe of comfort and what you
(05:54):
thought you were hanging on tojust lean into it.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
And if someone else is telling you that they're not
comfortable about something, Ithink we really need to pay
attention Right, and especiallywhen that's someone who has less
power in a situation Exactly,and I think that wherever we
stand on that, in that powerdynamic, I think we owe it to
(06:20):
ourselves to approach theseconversations with assuming the
best for everyone.
But when someone shows us thatthey aren't interested in
understanding us, they aren'tinterested in financial autonomy
for you, that's importantinformation to recognize as well
(06:41):
, and that's really thesituation we want to talk about
today.
And so I think it's the kind ofthing where, on one hand,
arguments about money andmarriage very normal or in
partnerships, but we're nottalking about kind of garden
variety disagreements.
We're talking about whensomeone is stonewalling and
(07:02):
refusing to have a conversation.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Someone is stonewalling and refusing to
have a conversation, refusing toaddress your concerns in a way
that makes you feel heard, right, and the thing is it's so
embedded in our DNA.
Like men and you referencedthis earlier men are conditioned
not to hear women, and forPete's sake, I mean we have all.
If we grew up in theconservative Anabaptist world,
(07:29):
we know what men's meetings are,where they talk probably about
what kind of covering the womenshould be wearing or not wearing
.
Why is it that men arediscussing issues that
specifically affect women?
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
So we have systems here that we're pushing against
Right Structures.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Right.
One example, a very traditionalexample, of this kind of
scenario is when the wife isstaying home with children, and
this is something that she andher husband both agree on, and
because then the husband's thebreadwinner, it can often be the
(08:10):
case that he takes full controlof the finances.
Now, obviously, this is notalways the case, but we're
talking about situations whereit is and where maybe she'll
receive a weekly allowance forgroceries, household needs, but
you know, it's always a stretch,and if she, whenever she talks
about the needs that go beyondthat, he's getting frustrated
(08:33):
and saying things like I workhard for this money, you should
be able to manage better.
And when she wants to open ajoint account, he refuses,
telling her oh, she just doesn'tunderstand finances, he'll
handle everything.
And then she might later findthat he's been hiding things
from her, and that can be awhole or anything from bills
that haven't been paid togambling debts to credit card
(08:57):
accounts in her name.
It can be a whole range ofthings.
Or you know that he is spendingmoney on himself while he's
making her feel guilty forneeding basic necessities.
And of course, then when thiskind of situation happens in a
religious setting, in a reallyconservative, religious, setting
, high demand.
Usually there will be a wholecloak of spirituality that will
(09:21):
be layered over it that willvalidate her dependence,
validate her lack of financialautonomy and will kind of make
her the villain for questioningthe status quo.
Have you seen?
Are you familiar with that kindof thing?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Oh yeah, right, because then it becomes not just
a conversation about you andyour husband's relationship, but
it becomes this thing aboutneeding to trust your husband's
wisdom or Trust God to speakthrough your husband.
Yes, and you pray about yourconcerns.
You don't, you know, speakdirectly to your husband about
(10:01):
those concerns.
You certainly don't nagdirectly to your husband about
those concerns.
You certainly don't nag.
We need to be a Proverbs 31woman and be more resourceful
and be more content.
So, yeah, there's this wholeother element to it that can
almost go from financial abuse,neglect to spiritual abuse.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Oh, yeah and gaslighting Right, and along
with what you're talking aboutthere, there's often this idea
that men are better at handlingmoney.
Women don't understand, and Ithink it's really easy for women
to feel dismissed or feel or tobe intimidated when, say, the
controlling partner pulls outall the big words and you know,
(10:47):
and intimidates themintentionally, intimidates them
by their lack of financialliteracy.
And I think we're here to saythat if you can ask the question
, you can understand the answerand, as a legally responsible
adult, you will be heldaccountable for what your
partner does legally.
As a legally responsible adult,you will be held accountable
for what your partner doeslegally, and so it's only
prudent for an adult to know,for us as adults to know what we
(11:11):
could be held liable for andwhat risks are being taken in
our name.
Like that is not.
That's basic responsibility,taking basic responsibility for
ourselves, and the very factthat someone is not taking your
question seriously should because for concern.
We want you to know that ifyou're not getting answers to
your questions, please keepasking.
(11:33):
They're more important thanever.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think it is so important that
we educate ourselves and weeducate our kids.
Huge advocate of getting yourkids involved in their own
finances and helping themunderstand the terminology and
the processes as well, because Idon't want to raise children
(11:58):
who assume that the male isbetter with finances than the
female or that the female can'tunderstand certain terminology.
And so, as much as possible, Ithink it is so important to
introduce our kids to that aswell and certainly certainly
(12:19):
educate ourselves.
So when does the provider quotebecome the financial gatekeeper
?
How do we know if the financialsetup is unfair?
Speaker 1 (12:31):
I think this is a really good question.
It's important to define whatwe're talking about.
Thehotlineorg is a website forfolks dealing with domestic
violence, domestic abuse of manydifferent kinds, and they list
some examples, but essentiallyit is about financial abuse is
(12:51):
rooted in the desire of onepartner to have power and
control over the other, and whois trying to limit the options
of their partner through whetherit's their job or some other
kind of income stream or theiraccess to shared family finances
.
I think some red flags that wecan think about are things like
(13:14):
if one partner doesn't haveaccess to financial accounts, or
if they have to ask for moneylike a child asking for an
allowance, and they feel like achild asking for an allowance,
and they feel like a childasking for an allowance.
When your spending is monitoredor restricted without discussion
, when it's not like a mutualdiscussion, when a partner
(13:36):
refuses to share financialinformation, just when you have
that feeling of anxiety orpowerlessness about money
decisions and you feel likeyou're just not part of the
conversation.
All those are red flags thatyou are not experiencing
financial autonomy and thatthere's a problem that needs to
(13:57):
be addressed.
Our message for anyone who isexperiencing this is to say
you're not alone, you haveoptions.
Many of us are socialized totry to fix a situation like this
by trying to get the otherperson to change, but by being
nicer to them or being moreaccommodating or, as you were
saying earlier, Rebecca,phrasing it a different way,
(14:17):
coming at it from a differentapproach.
But the idea that we can changesomeone else who is not
operating in good faith is anapproach that typically only
works in sermon illustrations.
In real life, that doesn'tusually work Right.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Right, and this is, I think, where this whole notion
of boundaries kind of getsfascinating, because we often
think about boundaries being athing of I.
Don't allow you to do that, andno.
Boundaries are all about what Iaccept or how I'm going to
engage or how I'm going to showup, and sometimes the more
(15:00):
productive approach is just thatto change how I engage with the
situation.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
I think that point about boundaries being a matter
of controlling how I'm showingup in a situation is so powerful
when our guiding light in thoseboundaries is what our personal
values are, rather than tryingto get somebody else to change.
That's when so many new optionscan open up, and I would just
(15:31):
encourage anyone in thissituation who is feeling trapped
or who is feeling recognizingthese red flags in their
situation.
Before you rush in demanding achange, I would encourage you to
take some time to think,reflect, journal, pray if that's
(15:56):
helpful for you, whatever thatcan help you feel more settled,
more like yourself, and to dosome deep soul searching about
what will life likely look likein, say, 5, 10, 15 years if you
go along with the status quo,and is that what you want for
yourself and your loved ones,your children?
What would you want life tolook like in five, 10, 15 years?
(16:16):
What steps could get youstarted on that path?
And what this can do is helpclarify if this situation with
the red flags that you're in now, where is that taking you
likely and is that where youwant to go?
And one other thing that can bepart of an exercise like this is
(16:37):
to identify the values that areguiding you in this, the ones
that are most important, andI'll link to, we'll link to a
values chart in the show notes.
But and all these values aregood and if you're like me,
you're going to feel acompulsion to like, check all of
them, but just just check threeor five.
You know three to five that aremost relevant in as it relates
(16:58):
to your financial, yourfinancial future, and use that
as your center for whatever itis that you do next, because you
might have to make some changes.
If you've been pretty hands-off, this might this values
clarification might motivate youto step up, to speak up, and it
(17:19):
can feel awkward and unfamiliarat first when you are doing
that for the first time, andthat's okay.
It doesn't mean you're doing itwrong.
It means you're learning andgrowing and being clear about
what matters to you.
Being clear about your valuescan help power your confidence
when you're swimming upstream ina situation like this.
(17:41):
So, rebecca, let's say someoneis in a situation, they're
recognizing these red flags,they've done some deep soul
searching and I have a clearersense of what really, really
deep down, matters to them andhow they want their life to look
in 5, 10, 15 years.
What are some practical stepssomeone might want to explore as
(18:06):
they are seeking financialautonomy?
Speaker 2 (18:11):
I think it's important to as much as you can
to get the full picture andgathering information that you
can, whether it's bankstatements, tax returns, that
type of thing.
But if your hands are tied andyou can't do that, everyone can
run their own credit report, andthat is a really important
(18:33):
place, I think, to start just tofind out what accounts are
opened in your name and if thereare accounts that are opened
that you're not aware of.
And I think that's a veryimportant place to start, and
there will be a link for that inthe show notes too.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
And this is something that's probably best done
quietly when you're dealing witha situation that's full of red
flags.
Right, right, we'll talk aboutthe guilt that, the feelings of
guilt that can come up aboutbeing, quote unquote, secretive
about this.
We'll talk about that in aminute, right?
Speaker 2 (19:10):
I am also a huge advocate that women should have
their own accounts Like.
I am absolutely convinced ofthis, and it's a small way to
start building your financialindependence.
I recently heard about a bankerwho had Amish women even coming
in and asking to secretly openup account and asking how they
(19:31):
can do it to be safe from theirspouse finding out, and I know
that the first thing that comesto my mind even as I say this is
so we are upset that our spousehas accounts that we don't know
about.
So what do we do?
Turn around and do the exactsame thing, and you know that
(19:52):
that can feel wrong.
Trust me on this one it's notthe same thing.
This is about your safety.
This is about your independence, and don't let that get in your
way.
Don't let that get in your way.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
And once you have that personal bank account, then
when someone gives you abirthday gift or you have some
windfall that comes inunexpected, you've got a place
to put it and you've got asecure place to put it.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Right, and I think we women are so resourceful.
You can figure out ways to havea side hustle, sell things on
marketplace, what be it?
You can come up with ways, andI think it's important to pursue
those options.
And then, most of all, findyour support systems.
Talk to trusted friends andfamily and pay attention when
you're having thoseconversations.
It is your body's job to keepyou safe, so pay attention to
(20:53):
what signals you're receiving.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Right, because what can be so tricky in some of
these situations is that familymembers that you would hope
would be supportive of someonein a situation like this, for
whatever reason, might not besupportive and they might end up
colluding with the otherpartner out of a false sense of
loyalty.
So I think, being really clearabout who you can trust and
(21:20):
testing it in small ways beforeyou trust them with big
information and I think one way,one data point, one detail to
pay attention to is do theybelieve you?
Like, if you say something thatindicates there's some tension
or that there's some distress inyour home or in your
(21:41):
partnership, and they seem todoubt your word, seem to doubt
your experience, that's probablynot going to be a trusted
person.
But keep talking until you findthose trusted people, and I
think often in situations likethis, our support will come from
places where we don't expect it.
So keep looking for them untilyou find them.
(22:01):
And there are also freefinancial counseling and legal
advice services out there.
I think it's easy to see thosekinds of free financial
counseling or legal adviceservices as something that's for
other people out there, butit's for everyone and it's
important to recognize that justbecause you are consulting and
(22:23):
you're getting information doesnot mean you're getting ready to
go blow everything up or youknow file for divorce or
whatever it is that someonemight fear that you're going to,
you know, but just gatheringinformation.
Just see it as gatheringinformation that is powerful and
you might decide you're notgoing to change anything major,
(22:45):
but getting the information isgoing to allow you to make an
informed decision.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
The other thing with gathering information is it
gives you confidence and itgives you a sense of
understanding of where you're at.
And sometimes just that senseof confidence and understanding
forces your partner to engage.
And while that isn'tnecessarily the best way to get
(23:14):
there, maybe this is your way toget there.
So gather that information andfeel confident about what you're
learning.
Even if it's scary, you canstill have confidence because at
least you know what you'redealing with.
And if it's scary, you canstill have confidence because at
least you know what you'redealing with and it's not this
mystery.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Right right and ask questions until you do Right
Understand, yeah, and this isnot unreasonable.
This is what a normalfunctioning adult would do and,
I think, along the way, givinggrace to yourself when you do
make mistakes.
You know, when you feelembarrassment for asking the
dumb questions.
First of all, they're not dumb,but even if you do make
(23:52):
financial decisions, you'llregret learning from them moving
on.
That is not God's judgment onyou.
That is not an invalidation ofyour desire for financial
autonomy.
This is life.
This is life, and an honestmistake is nothing that someone
needs to feel shame over, and Ithink that fear of being shamed
(24:14):
is something that's often heldover our heads and often used to
control us, because the idea islike if we don't do something
wrong, then we are worthy ofdignity, if we do all the right
things, then we're worthy of, weearn dignity.
And I think we can have so muchconfidence in realizing no, no,
everybody deserves to betreated with dignity and respect
(24:36):
, regardless of what mistakesthey might make, regardless of
what information they might nothave, regardless of whether or
not your venture is successful.
You are not obligated to stayin a situation where your
dignity and your safety is notrespected and you don't need to
earn that.
That is a starting point andyou're not being unreasonable
(24:58):
for expecting that.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
Somewhere I read that some of us come to the table
feeling like we aren't wanted,so we come up with ways to be
needed, and no one should haveto be in a relationship simply
because you're needed.
You should be wanted there.
That is part of what arelationship looks like, what a
(25:24):
healthy relationship looks like.
That made me pause and justthink about the way I show up
and your dignity matters, yourpersonhood matters and again, I
think sometimes thoseobservations are just data
points, data collection, and youdeserve to be wanted in the
(25:48):
relationship and in these highconflict scenarios.
I think it's so important alsothat your priority should be to
stay in that upstairs brain,rather than automatically
succumbing to your downstairsbrain, and remember to breathe,
take a breath, stay hydrated,refuse to make a decision that
(26:11):
someone else is forcing on you.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Follow your gut, know what you know see what you see,
and I think it can be hard toknow how to follow our gut when
it's not something we've beenpracticing a lot.
But that's where being clearabout what matters to us, being
clear about our values, havinggathered that information, is
(26:33):
what can power us through that.
And I think, recognizing thatwhen the pressure is being put
on us, it's so easy to go intofight or flight, it's so easy to
go into fight or flight, it'sso easy to shut down or you know
, whatever our trauma responseis to a high conflict situation.
But I think the more highconflict it is, the more tense
(26:56):
it is, the less interested theother person is in working with
us and meeting us halfway, themore we need to have those ways
of calming ourselves and ofstaying extremely clear about
what it is we want out of asituation and recognizing what
(27:18):
the situation is that we'redealing with.
So what if we've done all this,taken all these steps and in
the best case scenario, apartner might say oh, I see
they're serious about this.
Okay, I'm willing to talk.
But what if that doesn't happen?
What if the partner still won'tengage?
What are some options thatmight be recommended and I might
(27:43):
have some hot takes on this,then what?
Speaker 2 (27:49):
did and I might have some hot takes on this then what
you know, I think it's soimportant for each person in
this situation to figure out forthemselves what they want to do
.
As much as I'm not an advocatefor you have to stay, neither am
I an advocate for you have togo, you have to stay.
Neither am I an advocate foryou have to go.
I think at this point, when youknow and see the picture or the
(28:12):
situation you're in, that alonecan give you a place to start.
You might want to sit on it fora year and just observe,
(28:32):
observe.
I know relationships that havekind of reached that segue point
where she kind of had to figureout independently how to
survive.
He kept doing his thing.
She was aware enough to ensurethat he wasn't like opening up
accounts in her name anymore.
Like that at least quit.
And I think that is bottom line.
Like I just don't think anyonehas any business opening
accounts in a spouse's nameunknowingly.
(28:57):
But don't let other people tellyou what you need to do.
You can gather advice, butyou're not looking to someone
else to make a decision for you.
Educate yourself, follow yourgut.
It's okay to sit and listen andwatch and observe.
It's okay to do that, but Ithink each of us deserves to
(29:20):
make our own decisions withinthat.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
But it's not necessarily your job to fix the
partner Right, and I think thisis a point where a lot of advice
would be oh, have you gone tocounseling, have you gone to
mediation?
But the more time goes on, themore I look askance at a lot of
couples counseling when youdon't have both people operating
(29:47):
in good faith and that can beeven more damaging.
So if someone is refusing toengage, it might be past the
point that a counselor ormediator can do much good and
that's for each individual todecide, and maybe it would still
(30:08):
be useful just to hear anoutside perspective.
But I don't want to suggestthat that's like some kind of
panacea, I just want to throwthat out there.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Oh, I think that that's so important because so
often we have situations wherewomen have been in counseling
for years and then all of asudden, they reach their limit
and it's like, okay, and thenguess what's next on the plate?
Oh, let's do marriagecounseling.
When one partner has been incounseling for years and the
(30:39):
answer is now we're ready formarriage counseling, I think
that's just offensive.
Both parties need to do theirown work.
Both parties need to do theirown work.
Both parties need to gain theirown awareness.
And if your spouse, yourpartner, has not been in therapy
and you've been in therapy,going into couples therapy, I
(31:00):
just think is damning.
Oftentimes the counselor willtry and not take sides.
Oftentimes the counselor willtry and not take sides.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
And often even professionals, will defer to the
most toxic person in the room.
And then there's this tensionwhere the therapist is trying to
keep the most toxic person inthe room engaged, and so they do
that by deferring to them.
And so, even though one personhas been bending over backwards,
to make the relationship workto treat everybody equally, now
we have to talk about howeverybody's equally at fault,
(31:34):
equally at fault, equally atfault.
It's just, it's so, it'sridiculous, and I just would not
wish that on anyone.
So can we talk about some ofthose fears, some of those guilt
trips that are likely going tobe running teaching that goes
against our move towardfinancial autonomy.
(32:11):
When all our programming isbased on those voices, it can be
really hard to do somethingdifferent.
So let's hit some of those headon and let's deconstruct those
guilt trips.
So I think we agree that beingprepared isn't being sneaky,
it's smart.
(32:31):
Once we have acknowledged we'rein a situation with lots of
these red flags, we realize wedo not have financial autonomy
and we radically accept that andsay this is the situation that
I'm in.
Acting on it from thatperspective, then, is not being
sneaky, it's just being smart.
And having an emergency funddoesn't mean that we're planning
(32:53):
to crash our car.
Keeping a first aid kit doesn'tmean we're planning to break a
leg.
Squirreling away a little moneydoesn't mean you're planning to
run away and live off the gridor whatever.
It just means life happens andyou deserve options.
Having some cash tucked awaycan give you those options.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Right and I think so often.
At least there's some of uswho've been taught that.
You know you have to be honest,you cannot lie, you have to be
truthful, and I remember, atcertain points in different
relationships, realizing that Iwas the only one showing up,
being fully honest, and that itwas used against you.
(33:35):
And at some level you need tomeet the energy that's coming
your way and showing up andtrusting relationships, issues
that have harmed you over andover again.
Showing up and trusting thosesame situations is not going to
(33:56):
serve you, it's not going toserve your family, it's not
going to serve your kids.
So look at ways that you canshow up differently and maybe
even more independently, andit's always interesting to me
how you know a good wife.
A submissive wife is expectedto show up in ways that the
(34:17):
husbands never do.
I think it's okay to thinkabout the rules and the scripts
that have been given to femalesas opposed to males, and at some
point, if it's not good for thegoose, it's not good for the
gander either.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
After all, marriage should be a partnership, not a
hostage situation, and I thinkwhen we look at the reality of
who is expected to be loyal towhom so often, it starts to look
a whole lot more like a hostagesituation rather than a
partnership.
What about trust?
What about someone who feelsguilty because having private
(34:54):
money, feels like they'rebreaking trust?
What do you say to someone likethat?
Speaker 2 (34:59):
I think sometimes we're expected to trust
situations that aren'ttrustworthy.
We're expected to trust leadersthat aren't trustworthy, and I
think we so desperately need tolearn to trust ourselves first
of all.
We so desperately need to learnto trust ourselves first of all
.
And if you find yourself in arelationship or in a situation
(35:24):
where trust isn't coming orexpected to flow both ways, you
cannot.
Trust can't exist there.
Trust can't be there.
Trust is not a one-way street.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Not in a marriage or in a partnership.
Trust is not a one-way street,not in a marriage or in a
partnership.
Well, and isn't it a biggerbetrayal for one spouse to keep
the other one financiallypowerless?
I mean, if one partner is notsharing financial access with
the other one, they're the onesbeing secretive.
And if you were in an equalpartnership would this even be
(35:53):
an issue.
And I think those kinds ofquestions can kind of bring to
light the one-way trust thatyou're talking about there.
And if someone feels like theyhave to hide money to have
financial freedom, that's right.
There is a sign that somethingis off.
That goes much deeper than howthey're addressing the situation
.
So I think another concernmight be that this is someone
(36:18):
who is planning an escape, andthat can be seen as an act of
disloyalty.
But I think of Tia Leving'sstory and the many women who
have been in situations likethat.
The thing is, you're not, it'snot about planning to leave.
I think 99% of the women inthose situations want the
(36:39):
situation to resolve.
They want to stay.
They leave when it becomesabout survival and so having
financial autonomy.
It doesn't mean you'repreparing for divorce.
It means you're staying eventhough you could leave.
But also it means that in anemergency, you're prepared, you
(37:00):
are giving yourself power tomake choices, not just for
yourself, but if you havechildren that you're responsible
for, you're ensuring that, nomatter what happens, you will be
okay.
And that is simpleself-preservation.
And I think it's important torecognize how often in these
communities women arediscouraged, if not punished,
for engaging in the most basicacts of self-preservation.
(37:24):
So, whether or not someoneleaves the marriage, life
happens, illness happens, jobloss happens, accidents happen.
Any of these scenarios couldleave a person and their
children in unnecessarilydifficult situations if they're
not preparing.
But even if all those liferealities didn't exist, the
(37:46):
bottom line is each of usdeserve financial autonomy.
Taking moves, even if they'recovert, even if they are done
quietly, even if they are doneindependently, isn't being
sneaky, it's being smart, it'snot betraying anyone, it's about
protecting yourself and thepeople you are responsible for.
(38:07):
It's not a crime, it's commonsense.
And what responsible adultdoesn't plan ahead?
At the end of the day, afinancially independent woman is
not a threat.
She's just a woman who refusesto be stuck.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Right, and there's no shame for wanting equality, for
wanting fairness and forwanting financial security In
our household.
Matt pays the bills, he doesmost of the financial managing.
At the same time, I know how toget into any of the accounts, I
(38:46):
know how to talk to ourfinancial advisor and in many
ways I don't think I realizedhow perhaps unusual that is.
I realized how perhaps unusualthat is and I would like to
empower more relationships to bethat way.
And if you happen to be a manlistening to this conversation
(39:07):
this long, first of all, thankyou.
Props to you Exactly.
But more importantly, there hasto be enough space in a
relationship for both of yourcomfort, for both parties to be
comfortable, for both parties tobe confident, for both parties
(39:29):
to be engaged and have theirneeds met.
Right, and I can nearly promiseyou that if you lean into the
conversations your spouse wantsto have and you can figure out a
way to do that without feelingthreatened, your life is going
(39:52):
to be better too.
Your relationship is going tobe better.
You will be happier, and Iwould also like to suggest that
you do that sooner rather thanlater.
There's a certain level offrustration that can happen when
a spouse is asking and askingand asking for something for
(40:14):
years and nothing changes untilall of a sudden that spouse is
exhausted and done and then, allof a sudden, changes start
occurring.
These were changes that couldhave probably happened 10 years
ago, and here we are, and sothere's also that level of grief
(40:34):
that I've seen happen and withthat comes a sense of betrayal
and you know, like that, why didit take so long?
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Right, right, and that, and with that comes you
risk bringing resentment intoyour relationship and that's
toxic, that is so toxic.
I'm so glad you made that pointBecause I I think, because I
think that sometimes the levelof financial autonomy that more
women have in this generationright, that's unprecedented
(41:05):
compared to previous generationsin some sectors is framed as
disempowering to men.
But I just want to assure allthe men, all the men listening
out there, um, the men who arelistening, and again, hats off
to you.
What would it be like to beliked, Not because you bring a
(41:28):
paycheck, because, but becauseyour wife and your kids just
like being around you?
What if they just like youbecause you are a warm and
accepting and engaged person?
What if it has nothing to dowith the money you can provide?
For centuries and centuries,men as the breadwinner have been
(41:52):
framed as they haven't neededto be likable because everyone
was financially dependent onthem.
The rest of the family isfinancially dependent on them.
But this is an opportunity tobe valued for more than just
your paycheck.
This is an opportunity to bevalued for who you are and for
being part of a team, for beingpart of a really dynamic and
(42:18):
healthy relationship and family.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Right and for sure.
This is not about male versusfemale, husband versus wife.
Males are bad, whatever.
It's not about that.
It's about many of us, and Ithink we said this in the
beginning.
Many of us have been fed really, really shitty guidelines and
(42:44):
rules and advice.
We've been given that from bothsides, and it's an invitation
to reconsider some of thosescripts that some of us just
assume are the way to live, andit's an invitation to reconsider
that.
It's an invitation to look atthat and look at the ways that
(43:08):
maybe we can make changes thatnot only benefit us but benefit
future generations not onlybenefit us but benefit future
generations.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
Absolutely, absolutely so.
In our next episode, we'regoing to be looking at what are
some ways that a stay-at-homeparent can build financial
autonomy aside from winning thelottery and I wish we could tell
you that part.
But we have some very practicalsteps that we want to share
(43:42):
that can help ensure that,whether you're a stay-at-home
parent or working outside thehome with a 401k, either way,
you have access to financialresources access to financial
resources, to financial autonomy.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
So we would love to hear from you what are you
struggling with or what have youbeen thinking about, or maybe
what advice would you have forsomeone in this situation?
What's something that you havedone personally that has made a
difference in your life?
Speaker 1 (44:14):
We'd love for this to be a community where we really
support each other in being trueto ourselves and exploring all
that life has to offer.
Is that too cheesy?
Thanks everyone, it's beengreat chatting and we'll see you
next time.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
Thank you for spending time with us today.
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
What are your thoughts about college and
recovery from high demandreligion?
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences and we
want to talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atuncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom.
That's uncoveredlifebeyond atgmailcom.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
Until next time stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward.
Thank you.
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