55. From Financial Struggle to Stability: How One Family Flipped the Script (with special guest Patricia Lewis)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (00:08):
This is Rebecca and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.

Speaker 3 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path Along the
way, we've uncovered a fewinsights we want to share with
fellow travelers.

Speaker 3 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up, we are here to cheeryou on and assure you that the
best is yet to come.
Welcome to Uncovered LifeBeyond.
Hello everyone, Welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.

(01:07):
This is Naomi.
This is Rebecca.

Speaker 1 (01:10):
And this is Tricia.

Speaker 3 (01:11):
Yay, and we have Tricia with us today too.
You guys are so lucky.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
You are.
We have another special episodehere to wrap up our financial
literacy.
Here to wrap up our financialliteracy financial autonomy
series.
Trisha Lewis is someone I metonline.
It's almost 20 years ago, right, because it was back.
It was on a discussion boardfor people of all flavors of

(01:42):
Mennonite-Namish association andyou at the time, I think we're
in Japan teaching school.
You and I were both in verydifferent parts of our lives and
then, of course, we're nolonger on that discussion board
but have stayed in touch throughFacebook and then, in the
meanwhile, rebecca got to knowyou in real life.

Speaker 3 (02:04):
You know, isn't the whole I don't know circle of
life, mennonite connection thingjust hilarious?
So we met in a Facebook group,right, that sounds right, yeah.
And then figured out we livejust an hour away from each
other and yeah, yeah, I had someback and forth dinners,

(02:27):
potlucks and one of these dayswe're going to have some writing
groups.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
That sounds fun.

Speaker 3 (02:34):
Yeah, but I always have admired the perspective,
the voice and the way youarticulate things.
I love that about you and I'mjust so excited you agreed to
join us.

Speaker 1 (02:50):
Thank you.
I think I'm better atarticulating things when I write
them honestly, so you're ingood company, rebecca.

Speaker 2 (02:59):
To your point, though , I want to say that that is a
really good description ofTricia, because I know even
though, even though, through thechanges that Tricia and I have
both been through since then,I'm just in you're right here,
but your commitment to followthe truth where it leads, you

(03:29):
take questions and others'perspectives seriously and
you're like, okay, let's lookinto it.
And you are genuine in thatpursuit of knowing, and I really
I've always appreciated thatand, and I think it's well,
that's one of the reasons whyyou're on here, because we we

(03:49):
value your perspective.

Speaker 1 (03:51):
Well, thank you.
Yeah, back when you and I firstmet if we can say that online,
which I think we can yeah, I wassingle.
I was teaching in Japan and itwas actually while I was there
that my husband and I and it wasactually while I was there that
my husband and I started ourrelationship.
And then, yeah, since thenwe've gone through a lot.
So we got married, we have fiveboys and we went through some

(04:16):
really rough times likefinancially and stuff, and he
was also served as a pastor fora little while.
And, yeah, we did some, we didsome unusual things to to kind
of, I guess I would say, recoverfrom some of the difficulties
we've had financially.
But we're doing a lot betternow, which is really, which is
really great.

(04:36):
But, yeah, the, the, the travel, the, the journey here has been
.
It's been interesting and notalways easy, but I'm still glad
we did so now we're in thisseason, oh, go ahead.

Speaker 3 (04:48):
Oh, I was just going to say I think you all's ability
to be unconventional to adjustnot, and to not demand that you
have to take this route or thispath, but kind of lean into what
makes sense is so impressive,because I wonder how often this

(05:11):
idea that you got to follow thistight little path is actually
what gets us into trouble.

Speaker 1 (05:16):
Yeah Well.
So my husband and I, dependingon our audience, we'll tell them
we met at college or we metonline, because it's not as well
accepted by some as others.
So the reality is we did meetat college.
He worked for me in the kitchenand he jokes that he still
works for me in the kitchen butI was a student manager and he

(05:37):
worked in the cafeteria.
So that was that's kind of afun little, you know side note
about it.
Yeah, it is fun.
But then he continued atcollege and I graduated and it
wasn't until I was in Japan fouryears later that we actually
developed a relationship thatwas beyond you know good with
the dishes, yeah.
So at the time I was in Japan.

(05:59):
He's working overnights in Ohio, so our time schedules
overlapped a lot.
But you know our, our locationdidn't I think, and I don't
remember the number.
It's like in the twenties wewere in the same country for
like 20 some days when we gotmarried.

Speaker 2 (06:13):
but so that was yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:15):
So our relationship started out a little bit
uniquely.
It wasn't, like you know, thetypical dating relationship or
courtship relationship or any ofthose.
We just we chatted online, wetalked on the phone, we had it
was hours of communication, andthat, I think, is a big part of
why we are where we are today,because we had to learn to

(06:35):
communicate if we were going tohave any relationship.
Honesty was a big part of it,because when we first started
chatting he was, he was stillnot really in a relationship,
she'd broken up with him, but hereally hoped to make like to
get back together.
So we were communicating andtelling each other stuff that we
wouldn't necessarily tellsomebody, that we were trying to
, you know, impress, yeah, so.

(06:58):
So that probably helped us alot, because then we, you know,
when we did go ahead and start arelationship, we already had
all the stuff out on the tableand there wasn't too much hiding
anything anymore.
Ironically, one of the things wehad to learn was to disagree
effectively, because we grew upvery differently.
My husband did not grow upAnabaptist at all and I did, and

(07:19):
I still like to some degree.
I still have some of themindset and some of the ideas
and he, it was pretty different.
So we we would have discussionsand I think this and I think
that, and we kind of had tofigure out is this something we
can, you know, work with or dowe disagree too much to to
continue?
But we ended up yeah, obviouslywe ended up continuing.

(07:42):
Ended up yeah, obviously weended up continuing.
The other thing I think that iskind of funny this is unusual, I
think is that when we started arelationship, I kind of told
him, I set it out in front ofhim and I said, hey, I want you
to know if there's ever anymistreatment of kids, if we have
kids, or even if it's otherpeople's kids and there's
mistreatment, I will leave youand I will not look back.

(08:03):
And you need to know that aheadof time because I'm not going
to mess around with that.
I don't know, I was weird.
I was like what the heck?

Speaker 3 (08:10):
You just gave me the chills.
You just gave me the chills,Like seriously, that's amazing.

Speaker 1 (08:15):
But that's what I told him up front.
I was like, if you can't handlethis, you don't want, you know
you don't want a relationshipwith me and I don't know.
I think that was really goodBecause we did.
We went into it, both knowingthis is what like, this is what
we want from each other and thisis what we'll put up with, and
these are things we won't.

Speaker 3 (08:31):
I find it so amazing.
I mean and I'm assuming you hadthis too, but you know I was
raised with this hardcore thingof oh, you take the word divorce
out of the dictionary.
That's not even going to bepart of the conversation and you
like just blew that out of yoursystem.

(08:51):
Like it was like yeah, guesswhat?
Yes it is.
I don't think I would have beenable to have that conversation
in my young 20s.
I'm so impressed.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
The other part of it was I was looking at it as I'm
going to say this up front,because if I put this out there
up front he's like oh, that'sthe like, that's what she would
do, and I don't know if I canhandle that then then we don't
get there and we never have tothink about a divorce, because I
mean, it has worked so far atleast.

Speaker 2 (09:20):
Yeah, I just want to applaud you for having the sense

(09:47):
of self to draw that line inthe sand, because I know, like
when I, when I was gettingmarried concerns, I had that
like, am I just being judgmental?
Am I just being close-minded?
Am I just like, is this, youknow?
Do I need to just loosen up?
And I realize now that I didn't, because I, you know, I there
was all the warnings about don'tleave one fundamentalism for
another, and all that.
And I recognize now theimportance of taking ownership

(10:08):
of what really matters to you.
Who cares if it's judgmental?
Who cares?
Like you're going to have tolive with it?
So go ahead and be judgmental.
I just want to give peoplepermission to be.
You know, if that's the worry,if that's the concern in the
back of their minds for making aline, it's a standard.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
It's not even being judgmental, it's saying this is
my standard.
This is what.

Speaker 2 (10:30):
I can live with Exactly.

Speaker 3 (10:32):
I agree.
I agree.
Isn't it funny how boundarieshaving a standard, whatever was
called being judgmental, it wascalled being selfish.
It was called all these thingswhen it came from a woman, yeah,
especially when it came from awoman, and we lost I lost all

(10:52):
sense of autonomy in that, whichagain and I know this is
something I come back to all thetime this is why the process of
deconstruction is so freakingimportant and it's a process
Like it takes so long to unravelsome of this stuff and yeah,
it's not just an identity, notjust a new identity, but it's

(11:15):
about rethinking lots of things.
It's not an identity, it is nota destination, it is not
something you quickly do so youcan quote, rebuild, like what
the heck is that?
No, and it's taking the stuffthat we've been taught and
letting it unravel.

(11:35):
Like you said earlier, naomi,about Patricia, about Tricia,
your ability to kind of followthe truth and be okay with where
it lands or where it leads you,and I think sometimes that
makes us so uncomfortable thatwe kind of shut down and being

(11:57):
willing to lean into thatdiscomfort I just think is so
incredible.

Speaker 1 (12:01):
Well, something that I think is an advantage that I
had at that point too is that Iwas, first of all I had
graduated from with my four yeardegree and I was living in a
foreign country.
So I had a lot of.
I had a lot of life experiencesthat aren't necessarily fairly
very typical with the upbringingI had.
So I think that also was partof part of my I guess part of

(12:24):
what made me who I was.
At that point I had alreadykind of broken out of some of
the typical expectations and,yeah, so that was part of who I
was too.

Speaker 3 (12:35):
And we're going to talk about your education
actually in the next podcast.
But I am so curious to know howmuch just getting that
education gave you a sense ofconfidence and the ability to
kind of look at information andlet it be.

Speaker 1 (12:55):
Yeah, I think at that point there was still a really
weird mix of the cultural, likethe submission and the you know,
be meek, mild, quiet, and alsowhich is I mean, there's some of
that in my personality too, butthere was also, yes, some, some
level of confidence.
I knew that I was capable ofthought, I was capable of

(13:16):
articulation, I was capable offiguring out and understanding
both what I was thinking andalso hearing from other people,
without it having to, you know,take apart everything that I was
or had.
So that, yeah, that was reallyhelpful.
I think it's an important partof you know where I ended up too
.

Speaker 2 (13:33):
So, tricia, could you tell us a little bit about how
you grew up, just for contextfor the rest of your story?

Speaker 1 (13:40):
Sure, sure.
So yeah, I mentioned that alittle bit before.
I grew up in a moderatelyconservative Mennonite family.
It wasn't, it wasn't realextreme either way.
I mean we had.
I was wore skirts until I wentto college.
Actually, a couple years intocollege, which none of my kids
knew until recently, my husbandtold them that and they're like

(14:00):
what my mom, so that was kind offun.
Them that and they're like whatmy mom, so that was kind of fun
.
Um, I actually, when we youknow the podcast talks about
life uncovered, I actually woremy head covering um all the way
through college, I think, and ithad, um, it was.
It was different because I wentto a Baptist college.
This wasn't, like you know, amidnight college where they
would necessarily expect to havethat, so that was unusual.

(14:24):
I had a lot of people who, okay, why do you do this?
And you know, explained it.

Speaker 2 (14:29):
Okay, and then you know, of course I had yeah, can
you describe it, because that'sthe right, like what kind of
head covering?
Because, like, I wore thebeachy Amish head covering, like
some people call them ice creambuckets, and Rebecca, you wore
a variety of them, but Tricia,oh, I'm sorry, here, I had my

(14:54):
microphone up here, Okay, butTricia, yeah, I'd like to hear
about, I'm curious about yours.

Speaker 1 (15:01):
So when I first yeah, well, we went through a little
bit of, we went through somedifferent churches which, yeah,
we did so originally, so thatchanges yes, it changes what you
, what you wear.
So first I wore the what I'veheard referred to as the coffee
filter head coverings okay theyweren't as as big, but it was

(15:21):
the white netting and, you know,starched and stiffed and all
that.
So I wore those for quite awhile and then we ended up.
We ended up in a differentchurch which is now, I believe,
maybe the BMA variety, if, if,for those, you know, listeners
who might be familiar with someof the current varieties or
flavors of Mennonite.
But I started wearing a hangingveil then, so it was like a

(15:44):
black oh, what would that be?

Speaker 3 (15:50):
I can't even think of the type of material it was
called Kind of like a soft net,almost, yeah, like lacy.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
Was it a doily?
The ones we had weren't lace.

Speaker 1 (15:58):
Okay, so it wasn't the doily.
I ended up wearing that later.
That was husband, was waspastor, because nobody else in
church wore one.
But I did wear one Um, sothat's yeah.
I ended up wearing it againlater, but that's yeah, sure, no
.
So I've been in and out Um, butthe hanging veil is what I wore
and I wore that through umuntil I stopped wearing it in

(16:21):
college.
So, yeah, and then, yes, thethe doily.
I did wear a hanging veiloccasionally, but mostly it was
the doily version.
What was it?
Somebody said that it's theVictorian secret head covering.
So I mean, there's all theselike in jokes about you know
different kinds of headcoverings.

Speaker 3 (16:39):
You know what's funny , tricia, and your story kind of
reminds me of this.
If you go to the Behalt, theyhave like different coverings,
like I don't know.
Is there 12, 15 of them?

Speaker 2 (16:51):
Oh, or more.
So many.
Yeah, I would say it's morelike 20 or 25 varieties.
I mean, I feel like I'veprobably worn, not.

Speaker 3 (17:01):
Okay, saying I've worn half of them is
exaggerating, but I've worn alot of them and it's just kind
of funny how, yeah, it's funnyseeing that yeah you and.

Speaker 1 (17:14):
I should you and?
I should play a game ofcompetition there sometime maybe
I think you would win, becauseit's basically three for me I
did.
I did do something unusual,which was and this was partly
because I wasn't actuallyattending a Mennonite church at
the time but I took my hangingveil and I attached it to a
headband.

(17:35):
It was a cloth headband and Ijust that's how I would wear it.
It was so, so easy to put onand off that way and I didn't
have all of those pins and stuffevery time.
It was unconventional.

Speaker 3 (17:47):
You started the headband Maybe.

Speaker 2 (17:52):
Is this a trend?
Is this a trend you?

Speaker 3 (17:54):
started the headband trend?
That was you Probably notcompletely you trust better, um,
naomi, um around here, peoplewho are kind of sort of thinking

(18:16):
about leaving but not leaving,um literally wear a headband for
their head, covering for theirhead, okay, yeah, so instead of
to attach their head covering toit, they wear it instead, but
yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:24):
Yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 (18:26):
Well, if you get it wide enough.

Speaker 2 (18:28):
You get a little bit of coverage.

Speaker 3 (18:29):
Oh honey honey, these are Nike headbands.
I look at it.
I remind myself every day tolook at it with curiosity, not
judgment.

Speaker 2 (18:41):
Well, okay, and in the same spirit, I'm going to
guess.

Speaker 3 (18:49):
these are the these would have been the same folks
wearing t-shirts over capedresses?
No, probably sometimes yeah,but again to be fair, but to be
fair, let's judge theenvironment.

Speaker 2 (18:57):
That, oh absolutely absolutely this yeah, there's
men, there's men there's men whoare making the rules for these
women.

Speaker 3 (19:04):
So let's and that's kind of where I come back to
Right, you know, I agree it's.
It's just difficult sometimesbecause some of the same people
might have judged, you know,pretty harshly when you, when I
was in the middle of, you know,figuring it all out.
But that's okay, we've all donethat, we've all been in that

(19:24):
judgment.
So let's lean into curiosity.

Speaker 2 (19:29):
I agree and I applaud , I mean when I absolutely, in
light of the environment, Iapplaud them for exploring their
individuality, you know, andhowever they have access to it.
So yeah, absolutely yeah, thejudgment is not toward them, the
judgment is toward theenvironment that gives them such
a narrow range for expressingthemselves.

Speaker 3 (19:53):
Well, and I have friends who talk about you know
their churches having a men'smeeting to discuss the head
covering and I'm like I have somany thoughts and none of them
are thoughts I should probablysay here.
So you know, what if theheadband works for you?
Wear it.
But back to you, tricia.
Quite the trendsetter, so you.

(20:16):
That's actually quite brilliant, which is kind of what nuns do
too, right.

Speaker 2 (20:21):
Like, don't they kind of the nuns that still dress in
the traditional habit?
Yeah, the nuns around heredon't.
But yeah, when I've been inItaly or that places like that,
yeah, they still exist.
They're just not.
I think most don't, most don'twear the habit, but yeah, I
think it is something like that.
And, trisha, you were probablya young mom by that point.

(20:45):
Were you a young mom?
Because then, like, when you'redealing with kids, you don't
need all the bobby pins andstraight pins and all that stuff
.

Speaker 1 (20:53):
No, that was actually when I was in college.
Oh, okay, okay, yeah, forconvenience in college.
Well, that works too, and then,yeah.
So there's one other thing thatI'll mention about my growing
up years, that, especially sincewe're talking financial
literacy stuff, the other thingthat I would probably bring out
was, first of all, that I was ina family.

(21:15):
I had six sisters and a brother, and my dad owned a restaurant,
and we all worked at therestaurant.
The one thing I would mentionis that my dad did not, he was
not real restrictive about likegender roles.
He said every one of us girlsneeded to learn to do things
like change our oil, manage ourfinances.
You know we needed if we didn'tget married.
He wanted us to be able to liveindependently and know what we

(21:36):
were doing and not make a lot ofmistakes because, well, you
know, you're a girl.
I didn't teach you that, sothat was something that really
it helped me when it came tofiguring out.
Yeah, I didn't teach you that,so that was something that
really it.
It helped me when it came tofiguring out.
Yeah, it helped me a lot whenit came to figuring out college
stuff.
It helped me a lot when it cameto, I mean, even when we got
married and anyway.
So that was super, superhelpful.
And then, of course, the theworking which there's all kinds

(21:58):
of.
We could.
I know that Rebecca and I couldhave a whole conversation about
that whole working in thefamily business and all of that.
But it there were advantagesthat it gave me and
disadvantages, and I mean Isaved up money, but I also the
rate I got paid was pretty low.
So, yeah, but it gave me, itdid.
It gave me a start.
It gave me.
I started out with some savingsbecause my dad wasn't one of

(22:22):
those who you work for me and Iprovide you a house and food.
There was.
You know, if you worked, yougot a little bit.
So I learned to save.
That was super, super helpfuland to live on what I was making
, even though it wasn'tnecessarily a lot, it was enough
.
I also kind of started my yeah,the whole practice of learning,

(22:43):
I guess, is in there, but Ithink we're going to get to that
later.
So those were a couple of thekey things, just that whole.
He didn't stick with genderroles at all.
I mean, we grew up in a housewhere my mom stayed home and
homeschooled us and he worked,but all of us girls worked and
we learned this stuff.
So that was yeah, that wasactually really key.
And it was important to whenRandy and I got married too,

(23:06):
because I actually ended upknowing more about finances than
he did when we got married.
So that might have been like thefirst part of that whole not
necessarily sticking to orconforming to gender roles, but
there were some others too.
He liked to shop, which Ithought was weird because I
never enjoyed shopping, but I Ialso I like to do things like

(23:28):
hunting and like hiking andbeing outdoors.
We actually joked that we had.
We had a marriage where weflipped like gender stereotypes
from the very beginning, but weboth like, we liked each other.
We thought it was cool that youknow, we each had our own.
And then there's things thatare fairly typical because I can
, I tend to be able to cookbetter than he does, and he is

(23:52):
way more into sports than I am.
So there's also, you know,stereotypical things about us
too.
We're not just, you know,breaking everything just to
break it.
We're able to be ourselves.

Speaker 2 (24:05):
And I think that's key.
You're able to be yourselvesand it's like you do compliment
each other right.
But it's just that, likecomplementarianism says, you
have to compliment each other inthis very rigid way, specific
ways in very specific ways.
You all are just beingyourselves, and in being
yourselves you compliment eachother.

Speaker 3 (24:37):
So that's right.
Yeah, so that's great.
Insecurities make the otherperson feel confident.
And I feel like the mostbeautiful thing to see is when a
person is allowed to live andthrive and be and perform in the
roles they excel at, and thoseroles are supported and

(24:59):
applauded and no one feelsinsecure from them.
And it doesn't matter gender,it doesn't really matter, you
know whatever it's just it'syour natural gifting and,
instead of feeling insecureabout it, you're able to empower
the other person.
And I think you guys exemplifythat so well.

(25:20):
Yeah, and it's something Ithink about often.

Speaker 1 (25:24):
Well, thank you, rebecca.
Yeah, it took us a while to gethere.
I know it was.
It was not always easy, becauseso I was in Japan when we got
married.
I was teaching and he actuallycame over and joined me for a
bit, but that was.
That was a whole thing in itself.
We had a steep learning curvebecause when he moved over he

(25:45):
was changing.
I mean, he was moving his wholelocation to a whole new country
.
He was changing hisrelationship status from single
to married, the language thatwas being spoken.
It was a huge change for him,and what we have learned since
is that he didn't feel stressed,but his body took the stress,
that he was basically unable anddidn't know how to feel, and it

(26:09):
came out in physical maladies.
That, yeah, it stressed ourmarriage.
We've actually since talkedabout it.
That that was kind of it wastrained into him.
He would say that he was raisedin a high control environment
and part of that was he wasn'tallowed to be stressed.
He had to do the right thingsand he had to be there.

(26:31):
So, yeah, that was something weactually still had
conversations on recently andhe's been still kind of
processing some of those thingsthat he learned.
So that was one way that itcame out was he was.
He was physically not well.

Speaker 3 (26:46):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (26:46):
And then, to complicate things, about three
months into our marriage we gotpregnant, which we were in our
late twenties before we gotmarried, and some of his sisters
had trouble with havingchildren and we wanted children.
So we kind of said you know,we're, we're old enough and
we're at a place if we havechildren, that would be great.
But it did result in us kind ofgetting a our our time in Japan

(27:09):
got cut short and we came backto the United States right in
the middle of an economicrecession and so he got part no,
he got full-time employment forabout eight months and then he
strung together a part-time workwhile I had babies for several
years.
Yeah, so that was rough.

(27:29):
That whole economic insecuritywas hard.
And of course, at that point youmentioned the complementarian
thing earlier and at that pointthat's kind of the model that we
were working on was the husbandprovides and the mom stays home
, takes care of the kids.
And practically speaking, I washaving, I had C-sections, so I

(27:50):
was with having babies I had.
They're roughly two years apartand I have five of them, which
is quite a few.
So that was.
That was also physically reallytough and demanding.

Speaker 2 (28:00):
So we went through just for clarification.
Been demanding, so we wentthrough, just for clarification.
Five C-sections yes, you've hadfive C-sections.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
Wow.
In 10 years Wow 10 years,actually eight, because, if you
think about it, the first one tothe last one is just over eight
years.
Wow, that's incredible.
So yeah, I mean, at the time wewere kind of it was very much
that we were still very much inthat that religious idea of
having children is, you know, ablessing from God and don't stop

(28:29):
God's blessings.
And so when we were dating, wewere talking about how many kids
we wanted.
And I'm I'm being verypractical, I'm like I'm in my
late twenties, so I mean I'mthinking I can probably have
around five kids.
That's probably a reasonableamount.
And I asked him how many hewanted.
He said he wanted a dozen.
Well, I kind of paused and Isaid well, I think you're dating

(28:54):
the wrong sister, because allof my siblings are younger and
so if you want more, if you wentto a dozen children, you better
marry somebody younger than me.
Apparently he still wanted meenough to choose me.
So, yeah, that was that was myresponse when he said he wanted
a dozen.
So anyway, by the time we gotto the fifth one, I mean I could

(29:19):
tell you a story.
This isn't a you know, a mom ora birth podcast or whatever.
This isn't a mom or a birthpodcast or whatever.
But we had some really roughones because all of that time we
had all of those financialinsecurities.
For the first one we hadinsurance through his job that
he'd had for eight months.
But all of the prenatal visitswe paid for because the
insurance kicked in I think itwas two days before he was due.

(29:40):
So his was covered, it was paidfor.
He was a little overdue.
So you know, we had insurancefor like two weeks before he was
born, but still yeah, so therewas that one but then he got
laid off like three months later.
So the next one, I think weactually ended up on the state
medical and I and that's, andthat covered it a lot.

(30:03):
So then we get to.
If we're talking financial stuff, if there was something that I
would change, the next sectionof of how we handled the payment
is what I would probably change.
I would have just stuck withthat medical, but we were on it
because we were at a point wherewe literally didn't.
I think we made maybe what13,000 that year for a family of

(30:23):
three expecting a fourth.
It was.
It was crazy.
So that medical, that medicalcoverage, was really, really
needed.
But then we went ahead and wentoff of it because Randy got a
job.
It was not enough to kick usoff of it.
But we went off because he hadfull-time work and there was a,
you know, there was shame that Iassociated with that.

(30:43):
Can we talk about?

Speaker 3 (30:45):
that a little bit more we can.

Speaker 1 (30:47):
Because I think it's an important.

Speaker 3 (30:49):
I think it's such an important conversation.
I have talked to numerous momsand let me just backtrack and
say I get the shame.
I lived in a space of timewhere I was hungry, like I was
literally hungry.

(31:09):
I would show up at a meal oncea week.
That was filled with animosity,dislike, a disdain for me, but
I showed up once a week becauseI was hungry, like literally I
was hungry.
So so but, but, but.
But I would have.
I would have starved to deathbefore I ever left everyone.

(31:33):
Anyone know how hungry I wasand and for the first time and
only time in my life, peoplecomplimented me on how thin I
was, which I always think aboutwith other people, Like we need
to be careful about that.
But I think we need to talkabout this whole shame thing.
When I talk to moms who arestruggling, I've been surprised

(31:57):
at how often, if I say, figureout food stamps, figure out food
pantries, I don't care if youfeel shame, it is like a job.
You're figuring out how tosupport your family and the way
we have criticized families whoare trying to make ends meet in

(32:18):
a world where insurance is sucha crapshoot.
It is such a crapshoot.
It is when the economicsituation, even in good times,
is a crapshoot, why we areshaming the moms and the
families who are simply tryingto provide for their families

(32:39):
instead of these systems.
What is wrong with us?
So I would love to hear abouthow you process that shame and
kind of what.
What can we do to make it lessshameful and easier for other?

Speaker 1 (32:55):
people.
I think to some degree that'ssomething each person's going to
have to figure out.
I don't know that we can, youknow, make like, tell anybody
something that's going toconvince them.
If it's OK, I'll kind ofcontinue my story and explain
why and how I changed my mindand how that's kind of worked
out.
Because for the next couple,for the next three of the boys,

(33:22):
we did a medical sharing plan,so we would pay and it was
hundreds of dollars a month andthen when we would get bills we
would pay as much.
You know, we'd pay it and thenthey'd reimburse us as much as
possible.
And sometimes it was kind of afun balancing act of I'll pay as
much as I can and then submitthe bills to the sharing and
then they send us money and wepay the bills off.
But it was a struggle andthere's always, you know, a

(33:44):
percentage that we have to payand we're talking, you know,
surgical births are expensive.
So for the first couple afterthat, so the, my third and
fourth son, they because we werepaying cash, they had discounts
and stuff.
So here's the really ironicthing for the, for that last
baby that we had, when we said,you know, we're paying cash.
We don't have insurance.

(34:05):
The response was well, we can'tgive a discount if you don't
apply for the medical aid, likefor the state medical.
Well, at that point I'm likebut we have this other, so I
shouldn't be applying, becausethen you know we have something
to cover this.
We paid for his birth, like weended up making payments on his
birth for I think it was acouple of years and, to be fair,

(34:28):
I think we were paying for iteven after I finally gave in and
applied for the medical and Idon't recall I can't tell you
exactly what changed my mindabout it.
Remembered we were I mean, wewere newly unemployed when we'd
gone on it before and we kind oflooked at it as it's a
temporary thing while we're, youknow, while we're unemployed,
it's fine, and that didn't feelso shameful because it was

(34:50):
temporary.
And I think I got to the pointwhere I was looking at this bill
that I'm paying.
You know I'm paying a smallamount, but I'm paying an amount
every month and I'm like howare we ever going to get ahead
when we are so far behind?
This doesn't make sense.
What makes more sense is usethat, because all of this money
that I've been paying could havebeen going to pay for, like to

(35:13):
get us stuff we need, and wecould actually be potentially
getting back off of that medicalsooner if we had.
If I just hadn't been so dangproud, if I hadn't been too too
proud to to admit that we neededhelp because we did.
To be fair, that's how we endedup not being on it now is we

(35:35):
admitted we needed help and weused it and we got to a point
where we didn't need it.
And I think maybe, maybe that'swhat people need to hear that
it doesn't have to be justbecause you've used it doesn't
have to be.
I'm that person who is onmedical assistance.
It'll it'll end.
Use the you know, use theresources that you have
available and don't beembarrassed about using the

(35:57):
resources that are there.
It's okay, because we all weall need people.
We all need people to help usand sometimes some of us need
medical help.
Sometimes we need help gettingfood, sometimes we need help
getting education who knows whatit is, but it's okay.
And then we get to a placewhere we can go and we can offer
that help to others and that'sthe beautiful part of it.

(36:19):
So there's no shame.
There shouldn't be shame.
There is shame.
I know that We've kind of putthat there, but there shouldn't
be shame in it, because that'show we get to the point where we
can help others too.

Speaker 3 (36:37):
I was afraid if I asked for help.
Part of the problem was I wasafraid I would be told that it's
evidence that I wasn'tfollowing Jesus correctly,
Because obviously if I would bedoing God's will, so my
suffering was evidence of God'spunishment.
In fact, I had internalized themessage that probably it would
get worse until God brought meto the end of myself and I was I

(37:02):
would have died before I wouldhave asked for help, because
that, for me, that like tookeverything up a notch.
Did you have any of that typeof concerns, worries?
Did you have any of that typeof concerns, worries, mental
conversations?
And I hate that we do that toeach other.
I hate it.
I hate it.

(37:22):
We are Anabaptists, for God'ssake.
We talk about community, Likewhy is it so difficult to live
it?
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (37:31):
And, to be fair, I mean, during this time was when
my husband was an assistantpastor, and no, I'm going to be
honest that the thought nevercrossed my mind.
That, oh, it's evidence.
I and I don't know if it has todo with where I was in my
theology at the time.
It might have been simply the,because my, my way of looking at

(37:52):
it is sometimes things happenbecause people make choices and
they affect other people, andthat's what we're dealing with,
like, we're dealing with theeffects of the choices that
people make and how they affectother people.
So it doesn't.
I mean, yeah, my choices canaffect what happens to me, but
it's not only my choices thataffect me.
Like the people around me.
Their choices affect me.

(38:12):
People in authority, like ingovernment positions, those
things that affect me, theirchoices affect me.
People in authority, like ingovernment positions, those
things affect me, like all ofthe choices that people make
affect each other, which is, Imean, that's kind of the flip
side of we all need each other'shelp.
We also affect other peoplewith the choices we make.
So, yeah, I think that's theother part of it is.
No, I didn't tend to look at itas this is God's judgment on me

(38:33):
, specifically because I kind ofhad the idea that maybe, maybe
a little bit more broadly, someI'm not the only one in this
situation and maybe those mostthings that are happening are
happening to everybody becauseof choices that you know
everybody is making, that youknow there's a lot bigger things
going on Well and you were intwo different places.

Speaker 2 (38:53):
So I mean it makes sense to me.
You know I mean, rebecca, youwere in a very vulnerable place
at that point in your life andTricia you're.
There was a vulnerability interms of being a mom, a lot of
young children, and you knowfinancial precarity, but I would
imagine the moral support ofyour husband and your

(39:16):
relationship must have given youa lot of confidence.
Isn't the word I want, but likesolidity, security, yeah, I
would imagine yeah, well, yesand no, okay.

Speaker 1 (39:29):
Okay, because at the same time, go ahead.
Well, you had a question.

Speaker 2 (39:34):
No, go ahead.
Finish your thought, because Ido.
I do want to speak to the shamething, but go ahead and so

(39:58):
hopeless.

Speaker 1 (39:58):
And I mean, I'm home, I've had, you know, five
children and I had I had a weirdthing which was the prepartum
depression.
I actually got more depressedbefore the babies were born and
right up until the last one.
And what happened with the lastone, which we knew it was the
last one, so maybe that was partof it, but it just kind of kept
going with all the others.
I used to say about two weeksafter the babies were born the
world turned color again insteadof gray.
But with him it just kind ofwent on and on and it was just

(40:22):
gray and it stayed and I waslike, oh, my goodness, what do I
do?
But that was a complicatingfactor in all of that too.
That made it really hard.
The finances were hard and thedepression was hard.
But you are 100% correct, naomi, that we each had each other.

(40:44):
We still considered each otherto be.
You know, we were on the sameteam and we were working
together.
There were rough spots, but itmade a huge difference, right,
right, I'm sure.

Speaker 2 (40:54):
I think it's interesting how a sense of shame
about all kinds of things, butin this case using public
assistance or, you know, foodbank, whatever that is,
whatever's needed how that shameagain and again traps people
and blocks off options, againand again traps people and

(41:20):
blocks off options.
And I think you know when, whenwe grow up in a environment
that I mean for all our talk ofcommunity, there's also this
very fierce independence right,a fierce independent streak in
our Anabaptist background too,where you don't, you don't want
to show.
You know, just like you said,rebecca, like admitting that you

(41:41):
were in such difficult straitswould have been interpreted as
God's judgment, and so and Ithink of that kind of thing,
that dynamic showing up in somany, I mean, since I was a
little kid having nightmares,like I didn't want to talk to an
adult about it because I knewthat if I were right with God, I

(42:02):
wouldn't be afraid of whateverthe nightmare was.
You know, there have been timesin my life where I stayed in
situations way too long becauseI was trying to disprove, like,
maybe not consciously, but atsome level, I was trying to
disprove things that others hadsaid about me, you know, and
what really transformed thingsfor me was when I realized, oh

(42:24):
wait, no, if somebody's tryingto control your behavior and
this could be interpersonal orit could be much broader, you
know, like in terms of publicpolicy, but limiting options is
how you're going to controltheir behavior.
And also you shame the oneavenue you know their one route
to, to autonomy you know to todoing what they you know to, to

(42:50):
to acting outside of of the whatyou want them to do, of what
you want them to do.
So you know, you, what I thinkI'm hearing you saying as you
reflect back is that if youhadn't let that shame, which we
all share and we all have sharedanyway, many of us if you had
let that, if you hadn't let thatkeep you from staying on that

(43:13):
insurance or the medicalassistance, it could have put
you ahead so much furtherfinancially to be saving for
your kid's college or you knowwhatever else, or or maybe you
know, maybe just buying bunkbeds, but but, like I guess what
I'm saying is, it's just beenreally transformative for me and

(43:40):
I just want to share thatliberation with anyone who's
listening.
That sense of the possibility ofliberation from that shame to
realize, like no, when we feel asense of shame about something,
using that as a motivation isoften blinding us to something
that's really important.
The shame is a distraction sooften and that identifying that
and recognizing it as that canbe very liberating.

(44:02):
And one other little soapbox,and then I'll stop.
But let's also look on anotherlevel.
Why do we have this resistanceto accepting assistance like
that, like public assistance?
I know during the pandemic,because of the schools that my

(44:22):
children were going to they.
The poverty rate is high enoughin those schools that everybody
gets assistance, and so I wastaking these EBT cards to Aldi.
You know, like a of all thatmade a huge difference for us.
And B, I had to deal with theshame of it too, because I felt

(44:45):
like, I felt self-conscious,like are they?
Are they judging me?
Like, do they think I'm adeadbeat mom?
Like like I'm a socialist?
And I'm having these thoughtsand I guess I just I think
sometimes we, especially when wecome out of like these high
demand religious circles,settings where and it's not just

(45:09):
religion, but just settingsthat have this story of our
exclusivity and what makes usspecial and different, and if
part of that is we don't usestate assistance, I think when
we start interrogating some ofthose stories that we tell
ourselves, we might find outthat they don't line up with the
values that we aspire to, thevalues we really do want to hold

(45:32):
, and that there's probablysomething really healthy about
realizing we're just as effed upas everybody else.
It's at that point when we canreally start to feel a sense of
community with people around uswho haven't grown up just the
way we have, you know.

Speaker 3 (45:50):
Well, and isn't it funny how often we project our
own shit onto other people?
Yeah, yeah, funny how often weproject our own shit onto other
people.
Yeah, yeah, like it's like.
All along, it wasn't about them, it was about my own crap that
I'm just projecting onto others.
And I think about that when Isee and hear judgment or when I
give judgment.
It's not, it's often about theperson executing the judgment

(46:17):
not always, but often, yeah sotrue.

Speaker 2 (46:19):
So I don't want to.
I don't want to um read intoyour story but um trisha.

Speaker 3 (46:25):
But I you're giving us so many soapbox moments.

Speaker 2 (46:29):
I love it so, um, okay, so the one thing you would
change would be acceptingpublic assistance.

Speaker 1 (46:37):
Yeah, or your children?
I don't think yeah, becauseagain, I think it would have.
It would have helped us getwhere we are sooner.
I mean, part of me is like, oh,I don't want to change.
You know the whole our storybecause there is, you know
there's growth and change thatit.
You know, that it shows.
But at the same time I thinkthat would have been a healthier
thing.

(46:58):
I would you know if I wouldn't.
If I'm going to look back andgive somebody advice, don't,
don't feel shame about it.
It really is supposed to help.
You know, the idea is to helpyou get to a better place.
It's not a, it's not a divisionof this.
You know this person is, isless than that person because
they're using it.
It's this person needed somehelp.
That doesn't mean that's whereyou are and it doesn't mean

(47:19):
that's where you stay and that'skind of right.
Yeah, you have this idea.
It makes you know that, itmarks you and it doesn't.

Speaker 2 (47:25):
Right, and I think there's been.
Politicians have, for decadesnow, have been spreading the
story about generational poverty.
Generational poverty and they,they, they make it sound like,
if you get on that you are onthe fast track to staying in
poverty.
And the reality is, and I know,like I've read about this, like
, statistically, the number ofAmericans who dip into poverty

(47:47):
and and and and and qualify forthose benefits is is way larger
than we think, but it's.
But they don't necessarily staythere and that's the thing.
It's not a permanent thing, itdoesn't have to.

Speaker 3 (48:01):
The other thing that I think is important to point
out from my experienceoftentimes people don't know how
to get the help and how to getthe assistance, and there's a
fear of asking those questionsand from my experience when you
start asking questions.
People are so kind and are sohelpful and will do everything

(48:25):
in their power to get you theresources you need.
I don't know how to say thisand say it kindly, but within
the system the judgment isn'tthere like it is within the
church system.

Speaker 1 (48:40):
Does that make sense?

Speaker 3 (48:41):
Yes, it lines up with my experience.
Yeah, and I think there's thisfear of starting to ask
questions in the public worldand asking how do I get help?
Because I think we think we'regoing to get the same judgment
we might receive in the churchsystem and it's so different

(49:01):
Like I have been in situationshelping others where the
kindness that they offer.
I was in line at a food pantryand I realized they treated me
with the exact same courtesythat they would have given me if
I was giving them $2,000 cash.
It was the same and I just satand I cried.

(49:24):
I was like this is the kindness,this is the community that we
talk about, but the church is soslow in offering, so if you're
thinking you might needassistance, so slow in offering,
so if you're thinking you mightneed assistance, oh and for the
other, the other thing I needto say here is we are in a
situation where the governmentis actively taking away a lot of

(49:45):
these support systems and Idon't really care how the heck
you voted.
This is the time to show up forpeople and we need to fill in
the gaps.
It is not fair that we need tofill in the gaps, but we darn
better would, and we better dropthe judgment, because we don't
know when it's gonna be our turnasking for help or someone you

(50:07):
love asking for help and doeverything you can to advocate
for other people.

Speaker 2 (50:11):
This is not the time to pretend the world is all good
and fine, and people aren'tstruggling, telling itself the

(50:33):
story it's been telling itself,and I think we're going to see
just how much we depend on eachother and just how much those
who claim they've done it all bythemselves have been depending
on not help outside ofthemselves.
Yes, it just got to them reallyearly and they have already
forgotten about it, but it's,yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (50:57):
Absolutely.
I'm going to go ahead and justadd in here that the other thing
to keep in mind if you do useassistance, is that there's not
a division between those who useit and those who give it,
always Because the other part ofit is my husband well, actually
it was my kids and I, becausemy husband was working but my
kids and I actually helped atone of those food banks.

(51:17):
We helped hand out the food andthen we took some home
afterward.
And so the other thing to keepin mind is it doesn't mean you
can't help just because you'regetting help, Like that's part
of that's part of the wholething is you know we can, we can
all be part of it.
Even even when we're in need ofhelp, we may have something else
that somebody else needs.
I know for me, because I'm ateacher, I could do some

(51:40):
tutoring and things, and I coulddo it like in exchange for
something instead of for money,for people who needed help but
couldn't afford a tutor.
So I guess my point is likedon't be afraid to offer what
you've got, even if you aregetting help, Because just
because you're getting helpdoesn't make you any less
valuable.
It doesn't make your servicesand your abilities and talents

(52:00):
any less, and that's somethingwe need to remember too.
I think that's part of thatshame we feel like if we use
those things, that makes us lessbut it doesn't 100%.

Speaker 2 (52:10):
That's beautiful actually.

Speaker 1 (52:12):
So should I go ahead and pivot?
Yeah, so then, what Then?
What happened?
So after and to be fair, Idon't remember exactly the
number I think my husband wentthrough if I remember right, it
was around 15 different jobs inabout eight to 10 years.
Maybe it was even 12, but itwas.

(52:34):
Was that that whole thing?
When you have a job, it's easierto find a job.
But what would happen is he'dget a job and it would be like
they'd do layoffs because theydidn't have a lot of work.
So he'd find another job, andthen so many times he would get
calls back but well, I have thisother job.
Well, he didn't work very longat that job and you know, he was
the first one to get cut, or itwas just so many things

(52:56):
happened.
But he finally ended up.
And I promise I'm not going togo off on this too much because
my husband says I could talk forhours on the issue of
subcontracting, but my husbandended up in go for it.
Yeah, well, I don't want toovertake your whole podcast, but
you may, you may.
So my husband ended up in twodifferent jobs in which the job

(53:21):
was subcontracted and I mean,I'm the kind of person who finds
the legal stuff interesting.
So I could.
I could talk about that, but,simply put, both of those
situations were notappropriately called
subcontracting, but by callingit that they were able to pass
the risks on to the workerrather than taking the risks on

(53:42):
as a larger corporation.
Both of them were fairly largecorporations and they
subcontracted at least specificparts of the jobs, which meant
in the one case, randy wassupposedly his own boss, but he
didn't set his hours, he didn'tset his rate.
That in itself is a violationof what a subcontractor is
supposed to be, and they hadsome things in place that made

(54:05):
it a I don't know, would you saya verbal acquiescence.
He called them on it at onepoint because there was
something they said that hewould do and he said I will not.
That is a like, that is aproblem.
It causes risks I'm not willingto take, including to your own
customers.
And they said but you have to.
And he said am I asubcontractor?

(54:26):
Well, yeah, then I don't haveto, I do get to set my own.
And I guess he ended up gettingmoved around on the phone
conversation to different peopleand finally they said actually
I don't know if the phoneconversation concluded well, but
the person at the local branchwhere he was working said you
know what?
We're going to fix this, andthey made an agreement with him

(54:49):
that they worked it out.
So that was one, and then thenext one.
He ended up being a manager fora subcontractor.
And then the next one.
He ended up being a manager fora subcontractor and being in
management.
He got a salary and he didn'tget a penny more, even if he was
, you know, working, whether hewas working 40 hours or 70 hours
.
So, without going into too muchdetail although I'd love to,
you know name, names and stuff.

Speaker 2 (55:14):
I don't want to get me or you in trouble.
Let's just say these practicesare way more common than they
should be.

Speaker 1 (55:26):
Oh, yes, yes, and I guarantee you know of at least
one of the or both of thecompanies that my husband worked
for.
Having said that, he wasworking at that point he was in
management.
He was working this is, youknow, 70 ish hours a week.
It varied some, but he wassupposed to have benefits like
vacation time, which there wereworld circumstances going on
this is during COVID and so hewas not getting his time.

(55:46):
So one of the decisions we madethrough the years that I would
definitely 100% say was a smartone was I kept up my teaching
license.
I'd been doing that the wholetime, even though I wasn't
teaching in a school, I wasn'tusing the license for anything
other than tutoring, but we onlyhalf jokingly said that.
That is that the money that Iput into my teaching license was
our life insurance policy,because most of the most of the

(56:10):
time we didn't have much, if any, life insurance.
But if something happened tohim, the idea was I have a
teaching license and I can get ajob and I can manage and to
survive.
So that's what I did.
Well, at this point, havingbeen renewing my license for
however many years, I basicallywas super close to finishing up

(56:31):
a degree.
So I finished up my master'sdegree while he was doing this.
So he's working all these hoursI'm at home homeschooling and
getting my own master's degree.
And it was I think it wasaround Christmas time, because
Christmas was really busy.
As you know, many, many thingsare around that time.
It was super busy.
It was, I think it was rightafter Christmas.

(56:52):
And what I said to my husband atthat time?
I said I kind of feel like I'ma single mom and you sleep here
and pay child support.
And I said, in addition to that, I also said you know, I'm
finishing up my master's degreeand if I were to get a job
teaching I would get paid morethan you're getting and I have

(57:13):
summers off.
What do you think?
And I just kind of left it.
I was like at that point, bothof us had I mean I said earlier
we started out complementarian.
At this point we both have gone, come a long way away from that
.
I was probably a lot moreegalitarian in the way I
approached marriage and at thispoint he has he's gotten there
too, which he always had greatrespect for me and treated me

(57:36):
like you know, a full person,not just a you know somebody
that he could use.
Yeah, I was more than just atool for him but, like, even the
way that we interacted haschanged and, to my great shock,
he was like that's a good idea,wow.
So we flipped.
I great shock.

(57:58):
He was like that's a good idea,wow.
So we flipped.
And I had originally thoughtthat he could just stay home and
homeschool the boys, becausesome of them still wanted to,
and with the yeah, just withwith what they were wanting,
cause at that point they allsaid, yes, I would, I'd like to
keep homeschooling.
He said, I don't, I think thatwould drive me a little bit
crazy to be, you know, to flipfrom full-time work to home.
So he actually was.
He actually drove a bus, sohe'd get up early in the morning

(58:19):
, drive kids to school, comehome and school with the boys,
and then he'd go and drive kidshome from school.
So he was full-time school.
But we did that for about threeyears and that, honestly, is
when we flipped from basicallypoverty level to we don't.
We don't even qualify for mostof those things that were

(58:41):
helping us get there, you gotout of survival mode.
We did it, was it, and it hasbeen a life changer for us, for
our boys.
It's been great, but it took.
It took a willingness to go,yeah, to go a completely
different way and I can't saythat everybody has loved it.
Some pushback, a little bit.

(59:01):
Yeah, we've been told thatthere's at least one family
member who was praying for me tobe back home where I belong,
and yeah, but that's.
That's a whole other, wholeother thing.
That clearly, where we camefrom our complementarian
leanings at the beginning, we'retaught to us, yeah, but yeah,

(59:25):
that's what we did for threeyears.

Speaker 2 (59:27):
I just yeah it just I don't know why it boggles my
mind.
It shouldn't.
This is old news by now, butlike, and yet you know for so
many of us.
And yet what people are willingto sacrifice on the altar of
these ideals, and I'm not, Imean, I guess, in their mind,

(59:50):
their principles, and they'rebeing very principled and
wanting to stick to it, butwithout recognition of the harm
or the, in your case, theopportunities that you'd be
missing if you just stuck withthat.
I don't have anything profoundto say, other than what is it
with people?

Speaker 3 (01:00:03):
It's those with power and resources who are setting
these standards for how peopleshould live.
It is easy, when you have ahuge family business, to decide
that, yes, women should stay athome.
That makes sense.
The woman is now supporting herhusband that makes sense.

(01:00:24):
But they would rather push theagenda, even to the detriment of
someone's mental health, ofsomeone's financial situation,
that somehow a woman has to stayat home, which is madness.
It is absolute insanity.
And we don't get to make thosecalls for other people, like

(01:00:48):
what is wrong with us.
And then we set this up to besome kind of godly and Righteous
yes, like it's madness.

Speaker 2 (01:00:58):
Well, and I and I just want to like, and
overlooking the obvious benefitthat it that it it turned out as
as you expected it to right,like I mean, after all you had
been through and here you havethis opportunity to just, I mean
, I've, and as you're sayingthis, I, having lived um quite a

(01:01:19):
few years in the bible belt, Iknow situations like this too,
where there was, I think thewife was an accountant and and
the husband worked a retail job,as in retail, at a storefront I
don't know what what he'sgetting getting paid, but not
much and but so that she couldhomeschool the kids, and this

(01:01:39):
was more important than theirfinancial security.
You know people should do ifthat's, if they were happy that
way, fine.
I would just hate for anyone tostay stuck in that situation
and and and experience all thatvulnerability that comes with it
and all the insecurity thatcomes with it for some kind of
ideal that really does not givethem, that really doesn't

(01:02:05):
compensate them for all thesacrifices they're making, and
it actually just perpetuates thesystem.

Speaker 3 (01:02:11):
Yeah, keeps them in poverty.
Yeah, yeah, and it keeps thewealthy wealthy too, it's true
yeah, so, yeah, so that's what.

Speaker 1 (01:02:21):
That was what we did, and I worked, and I I mean
teaching, as I'm sure Naomi does.
It can be very consuming attimes, oh my goodness well, and
you were teaching.

Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
What were you teaching?
What level?
I was teaching eighth grade, ohmy it was eighth grade, yeah,
oh my goodness, I that's theywere awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
I enjoyed it so much but it was hard.

Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
Yeah, it's both oh, every time that I like at
conferences and they're talkingwith my children's teachers, I'm
just like I'm just bowled overat at all that there was
teachers manage.

Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
So, yeah, yeah, so we did that.
It was three years, and thenwhat ended up happening?
I mean, we flipped back.
We're back to the like the moreconventional I'm home with the
kids when I'm home.
That's a whole otherconversation.
But my husband found a job thathe loves and is better
compensated, and he is actuallymaking more than I was making

(01:03:21):
and he was making together lastthe last couple of years.
So, essentially, what happened?
I mean, because he would neverhave had time or ability to look
for the job he has now, when hewas working in that managerial
position where he was, you know,70 hours a week, it was
essential, even if it was just atransitory time for us, which I

(01:03:41):
I mean at this point that'swhat it looks like it was, but,
um, it may have led to otherthings in the future too.
So it still it was needed inorder to to make the changes and
move and change our situation.
So, yeah, that was, that wasgreat.
Yeah, there's nothing about itthat I regret.
I kind of it makes me sad thatsome of the reactions we've

(01:04:03):
gotten were so negative, but Ialso would yeah, I would highly
recommend for women and evenwhen they're married and even
when their husbands are workingand providing.
Like have know what you'redoing if something happens,
because you know if if somethinghappens to your husband, then I
mean sure you might be able torely on your community, but what

(01:04:24):
?
What happens if not?
What happens if something fallsthrough?
Or like just know what yourplan is going forward.
That was kind of the mindsetthat I had and, like I said, my
dad my dad taught me that wayand he wanted me to be able to
be independent.
But I think it's really helpfulfor others too.

Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
So couldn't you talk about what a few of those things
might be?
I mean, we've talked about,like you know, identifying food
pantries or you know that kindof thing, but like which which
is important, and I know everysituation is so different, it's
hard to say, but like whichwhich is important, and I know
every situation is so different,it's hard to say.
But like so to someone who is astay at home parent and has

(01:05:03):
never planned to be independentand say they've got young kids,
kids, you know, elementary ageand down.
What can they do to take steps?
And because maybe that's allthey can do is take steps toward
independence, even ifindependence is far away off,
what are some things they coulddo to at least, I guess,

(01:05:24):
minimize the harm of a?

Speaker 1 (01:05:26):
vulnerable situation.
Sure, one of the things isidentify your networks.
Who do you know?
And it can be in the communityyou already have, it can be
outside the community youalready have, it can be outside
of that community and then maybeconsider what, what abilities
do you have?
And I can give you a couple ofideas, for, you know, stay at
home moms, because one of thethings that I did during those

(01:05:48):
times of unemployment was Iwould do some extra things to
kind of help out and bring in alittle extra.
You know, grocery money, and Idid have a teaching license, but
that wasn't always what I did.
One of the things that I did.
There was a working mom and sheneeded after school care for
kids.
So I was already home, my kidsdid their schoolwork earlier in

(01:06:08):
the day and so then after schoolthe kids would come and they
actually just hung out andplayed with my kids and she paid
me to watch her kids afterschool and it was a cheaper
option than a licensed thing.
But it also gave my kids achance to play with some other
kids and it gave me a chance tobring in a little extra.
So something like that might besomething that a mom with

(01:06:31):
younger kids can do to bring ina little extra if she's in that
situation.

Speaker 2 (01:06:35):
I think that's such an awesome idea, especially in
light of our kind of nationalchild care situation.
I making those initialconnections might be difficult
at first from my perspective,like working with, you know,
having colleagues who are, youknow, young parents and are
trying to figure this all out.

(01:06:56):
I just, I just think there aremore people out there than we
might realize who would lovethat kind of thing, like people
in our own neighborhoods even.
And, rami, rebecca, you, you'reinvolved in something a little
bit like this.

Speaker 3 (01:07:10):
Yeah, if I can just speak to that real quick, my
neighbor kid needed a babysitterover the summer.
Real quick, my neighbor kidneeded a babysitter over the
summer and I think it's been thepast three or four summers my
son has actually been theprimary child care provider.
That was kind of his gig forthe summer.
I mean, he was supervised earlyon, like you know, he wasn't

(01:07:33):
always alone, but it was awonderful way for him to a learn
how to work with other kids butalso earn extra money.
And I think just being creativeand figuring out ways for even
kids to take ownership of someof that is so amazing.

(01:07:56):
And childcare is a real need.
And let me just say this too bewilling to do childcare even if
the mom can't afford it, affordpaying for it.
Like be willing to do that too.

Speaker 1 (01:08:11):
And especially when you don't need income, when
that's not your primary thing,you can make connections with
people.
By doing those things, you canoffer services to help people
get where they you know wherethey're trying to go, in ways
that you know.
People who aren't home may nothave that opportunity.

Speaker 2 (01:08:28):
Given the chunk that child care can take out of a
parent's salary.
You know if you you have to bemaking a lot of money for that
to not be a major chunk.
So I agree, doing that forsomeone else, paid or unpaid,
can be so necessary, so needed.

Speaker 1 (01:08:45):
Yeah, and then I think I mentioned that I did
some tutoring.
That was that was specific tomy skills.
But then another thing I didand I was not in a great place
for it because there were lotsof Amish around who did it too,
but I did some baking and I justI had it in Ohio.
It's pretty easy to set up.
You have to, you know, stay onit that you made it at home and

(01:09:06):
it's not a professional orlicensed facility.
But you can make baked goodsand stuff, as long as they don't
need to be refrigerated, andsell those.
And so there was a point in timewhen we didn't have a.
Actually there was a point intime we didn't even have a
vehicle.
We were using a borrowedvehicle for a while for Randy to
get to work and I was like Iwant to be able to do something
to help, so I would bake and Isold it off of our porch and it

(01:09:29):
wasn't a lot, but it paid forall of the ingredients,
including the ones that we usedfor us to eat too.
So it was kind of one of those.
The boys asked me why did wenot do this anymore?
The stuff you made was so good.
And I told them like we canafford, we can afford to eat now
.
It took a lot of time andeffort, but it made a.

(01:09:50):
It was a way to help.
So there's some things like that.
But there's some other things.
One of them is you should knowwhat your financial situation is
.
You should know what accountsyou have.
If there's a retirement account, if you own the house that you
are in or you're paying rent,what's your rent?
What are the?
You know what are the costs.
Whose names?

Speaker 3 (01:10:10):
and whose names are on the rental, whose names are
on the house?

Speaker 1 (01:10:17):
Sorry, no, no, that's fine, those are.
That's a very good point.
You should know those things.
You should know how to contactpeople if you need to.
And that's important for me andmy husband because I had I
think I mentioned I had had moretraining in that regard and I
had more knowledge there when wegot married, and so it was
actually important for me tokind of communicate those things

(01:10:37):
to him because I would getthings going.
But he needed to know too, andI know that's not conventional,
but still it's important forboth to know.
Something that can be helpful.
And this is maybe a randomtidbit, but we have all of our
vehicles either in my name orboth of our name, but we have
something called a survivorshipso that if something did happen

(01:10:58):
to me, since they're all in myname or whatever, that the
survivorship title goes to him.
So there's not, it doesn't haveto go through probate before
it's legally his to use or sellor whatever.
You know, whatever thesituation is.
So there's there's things likethat that are really helpful and
important.
And I'm going to I'm going tosay something that might come

(01:11:19):
across a little judgmental and Idon't mean it this way, but if
your husband's taking care ofthings, then he should be doing
those things for you.
But if he's not, or you don'tknow it, that might be something
to ask.
Ask about what are the?
You know, what are the billsthat we're paying monthly, what
are the debts that we have, whatdo we owe and what happens to
our?
You know our assets and somepeople have more than others,

(01:11:43):
but if you're if you're in asituation like I was, where we
didn't have a lot, everything,like if something had happened
to Randy, everything mattered,and I think it's important to
even ask what are the passwordsfor the accounts?

Speaker 3 (01:11:55):
Where are the accounts, how would I get into
them?
And if you're met with any kindof resistance, you need to
start asking more questions.

Speaker 2 (01:12:11):
Agree.
Yeah, you know kind of with allthese things whether it's
asking for help or looking forodd jobs or asking about this
like the more resistance you get, the more questions you ask.
I mean everyone has a right toany of these things.
I mean everyone has a right toany of these things and maybe,

(01:12:33):
if you get resistance, you maybeyou need to ask someone else,
maybe you need to talk tosomeone else about it, but it's
not an unreasonable ask.
It's it's a, it's a responsibleask.
It's it's an adult ask andthere's no shame in any of it or
or or insubordinationordinationor whatever judgmental word we

(01:12:54):
want to apply.
It's just a good way, it's justpart of being an adult.
And keep asking the questions.
Maybe you need to ask adifferent person, but keep
asking.

Speaker 3 (01:13:21):
Something else that I've watched you and Randy do
which is kind of fascinating.
It kind of mimics Matt and Iwith this, but for years we,
right after Thanksgiving, wouldbuy surplus turkeys.
Sometimes we didn't have theemotional energy to do anything,
so we would throw them in thefreezer and they'd sit there for
a few months and then we'd pullthem out and debone them and
cook broth or whatever we woulddo with it.
But there's ways like that andI think sometimes I forget to

(01:13:46):
credit and be grateful for myupbringing that I have the
resources and the knowledge todo this.
But I also want to speak to howhelpful it is when your partner
supports you in that it doesn'trest all on my shoulders to do
that and you have to give us thenumbers.

(01:14:06):
You guys do like 17 turkeys orsomething like that one year.
Yes, yes, okay, 17, the rightnumber?

Speaker 1 (01:14:15):
Yeah, it is, it is.
Oh, my goodness.
So it started.
It started when I kind ofrealized that turkeys were super
cheap right At Thanksgivingusually.
Sometimes it was if you spend$20, you get the turkey for 29
cents a pound.
This is, you know, when Istarted or even free sometimes.

(01:14:37):
Yeah, sometimes, yeah, and thatwas sometimes limited.
You know one per customer andthen after that you know anyway.
So that's what it started with.
So I noticed that and I startedjust I'd buy whatever I could
fit in our freezer.
And I that's what I startedwith.
I started with buying them,sticking them in the freezer and
then I would just pull them outevery month or two.
I think it started with three.
We had a smaller family at thetime too.

(01:14:57):
Basically, we found a way tomake it that A we really really
like and B really freezes up.
Well, that's what it startedwith.

Speaker 2 (01:15:08):
What's your secret to preserving the turkeys?

Speaker 1 (01:15:11):
well, so that's what it started with.
So what's your secret topreserving the turkeys?
So what we do now is we cookthem and then pull them off the
bone and then cook the meatagain in broth, and it makes it
super tender and you know youdon't get that dry turkey and it
also freezes super well.
And then there's broth, ofcourse, because you cooked it in
broth and it's got lots ofquality nutrition in it.

(01:15:32):
I think we started freezing itand it was enough that I just
started canning it then.
So, yeah, so now we can it,which, of course, that takes the
resources to do the canning.
Yes, so that is one of thosethings Rebecca mentioned.

Speaker 3 (01:15:44):
Because you have to have a pressure cooker.
You have to know how to yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:15:54):
Yeah, but I had started doing that.
And then the then the year no,it wasn't even the first year I
was teaching, I was the secondyear I was teaching um,
basically, randy kind of said,well, the boys really like this,
and we ran out of turkey likein January last year, so I'm
gonna do more.
And he, he did, he did 17 ofthem over like two weeks.
It was crazy, you had like alittle factory going on.
He did, yeah, and he did a lotof it, and then I'd can, in the

(01:16:15):
evening, when I got home fromschool, we ended up doing I
think it was 13 this year and wehave two extras in the freezer,
which that's Ray was going tohave some friends over and the
friends ended up not coming.
So we just ended up with thetrickies, which was fine, but
yeah, we did.
We did a few less this yearbecause we ended up with extra,

(01:16:38):
but it's, it's one of the wayswe do.

Speaker 2 (01:16:39):
Kind of meat is expensive when you have a family
with five boys and they're mostteenagers now.
So, yeah, that's a lot of food.
Yeah, yeah, I bought severalturkey breasts at Thanksgiving
just because I didn't have theenergy for the whole thing.
But I got several of theinexpensive turkey breasts and
they're in my freezer and I'vebeen kind of pulling them out
one at a time.

(01:17:00):
But I think that would be great, because that's the thing If I
don't brine them, then it doesturn out more dry.
And I have to, yeah, figure thatout.
But I've made Thanksgivingturkey that way, like where you
cook it, where you you roast itand then debone it and then bake
it in the broth, and I knowthat was delicious, so all right

(01:17:20):
, that's.

Speaker 3 (01:17:20):
That was years ago, so thank you for that tip I'm
gonna do that what's even better, and it's so fattening, but it
so good.
Make a gravy and bake it in thegravy.
Oh yeah, it is so yummy.

Speaker 2 (01:17:36):
Oh, that sounds great .

Speaker 1 (01:17:38):
When it comes to like things like the turkeys and
stuff that's, it's great and I'mreally glad we do it.
But I wanted to say that we dothat and I don't want anybody to
feel like, oh well, we shoulddo this too, because what you
need to do is you need to knowwhat your family like, what's
going to work for your family.
For our family, that was greatbecause our boys love turkey and
it also made for easy meals topull out and heat up for us.

(01:18:00):
But you know, if you're in asituation where you don't have
the time to do those, that'sokay.
Don't spend a bunch of money onturkey that you're not going to
actually cook, because thenyou're just, you know, you're
just wasting your money and andthen you you put expectations on
yourself that you can't evenfollow through on, because
that's not where you are.
I guess the big thing was cheapIsn't cheap if it isn't useful.

(01:18:23):
So, like our family, we don't.
There's certain things we eatand we don't eat.
So when things are on sale, Idon't buy it if it's not
something that we're going touse, because, yeah, it's cheap
and it might even be reallyhealthy, but if I'm not going to
cook it and we're not going toeat it, it's just going to sit,
being healthy, on the shelf.
So I guess the big thing isdon't feel like you have to do

(01:18:44):
something that you heardsomebody else does if it doesn't
work for you.
We all have our own differentsituations and abilities and
like the knowledge that we haveand I guess the way I would put
it is, cheap isn't better if itdoesn't work Absolutely.
So there's some things that Ispend extra money on, even
though I could do it cheaper,because I know this is what
works for me.

Speaker 2 (01:19:05):
So Right, and would you say along with that that you
know to someone who is reallystruggling, no amount of turkeys
in the freezer using thatmetaphorically is going to pay
the bills.
you know is going to pay thehousing is going to pay the
medical debt, like it might makethings easier.
I mean, it's like you know, ahack For food.

(01:19:27):
Yeah, yeah, that might makethings easier in one sense, but
I think sometimes those kinds offrugal tips get passed along,
as here is why we have financialfreedom.
Right, it's not?
Yeah, it's not.
It might help survive, mighthelp you survive, but it's not
going to change, it's not goingto get you out of poverty.

Speaker 1 (01:19:46):
Right, right, right.
And poverty is this.
I think this is what hit me sohard when we were living there.
It is so expensive to be poor.
Yes, I don't, I don't even.
Yeah, it kind of blew me awaybecause I grew up we would buy
things in bulk and we'd getthings cheaper.
And I was like anybody can dothis.
Right where we have a roofleaking and we don't have money

(01:20:12):
to fix that roof, we could fixthe roof maybe for a couple
hundred dollars now, or we canreplace the entire roof later.
But if you don't have $500 now,you're going to end up having
to replace that whole thinglater.
I mean, I have an example fromwhen I was in college.
I had no extra money and mypower steering went out on my
car and when I finally collectedmoney later and took it in, it

(01:20:33):
actually cost I don't I don'tremember like what it was back
then, but it was hundreds ofdollars.
And the guy was like, well, howlong has it been like this?
And I told him well, it stopped.
You know, it stopped having thepower steering thing.
You know, however long ago hewas like if you'd have brought
it in then I probably could havepicked it and fixed it for
under $100.
And I was like I didn't have$100.
So, anyway, it kind of hit mejust how expensive being poor

(01:20:56):
can be, because you can't affordto.
You know to fix the thingsbefore they get big.

Speaker 3 (01:21:01):
Well and even health wise, if you don't have
insurance to do checkups, if youdon't have insurance to do
dental work, dental work canaffect, to do dental work,
dental work can affect.
And then all of that leads tofinancial issues and financial
drains leads to depression.
I mean it's just this horriblecycle that it's so easy to get

(01:21:24):
into and when you're barelytreading water, it's just so
difficult barely treading water.

Speaker 2 (01:21:30):
It's just so difficult.
And how much of that depressionis about?
Well, A, just the insecurity ofit, right?
I mean the fear of our basicneeds not being met, and on top
of that, then the common storythat we tell ourselves that it's
our fault, we made poor choices.

(01:21:50):
I mean, then you're isolated inthat, you know, and that's like
that's a recipe.
That's a recipe for a mentalbreakdown, just because of how
that gets at both, you know,like the human body's
programming to survive, right,you know, gets triggered there,

(01:22:11):
because it feels like A, you'reseparate from your tribe,
separate from your group, youdon't have that support of a
community and also, yeah, you'reafraid of what this means for
your family, for survival.

Speaker 3 (01:22:25):
Well, and I just think the whole narrative like
every time I hear a Christianbusiness owner leader whatever
credit his success to quotetaking God as a business partner
I just want to throw up.
I think sometimes it is said inhumility, but it is so.

(01:22:47):
I tried to take God as mybusiness partner and that did
not make ensure abuse wouldn'thappen, that didn't ensure that
I wasn't hungry and and settingthat as a you know, take God as
your business partner and he'sgoing to take care of you is
just bullshit.
We're here to take care of eachother.

(01:23:09):
We're here for community and Ithink we need to be really
careful about the language weuse around that the implication
is that wealth is a result ofGod's favor, a result of God's
approval.

Speaker 2 (01:23:24):
Yeah, blessing, blessing, yeah yeah.
And so if you don't have it,you must be doing something
wrong.
How often does this come aroundto shame, being a way of
cutting us off from getting helpwe legit need, or like
reassurance, or like some kindof basic need met?

Speaker 3 (01:23:43):
It's shame cuts us off from our humanity.

Speaker 1 (01:23:47):
Yeah, and sometimes we do it to ourselves.

Speaker 2 (01:23:50):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:23:52):
That's actually kind of my story, because I had
mentioned earlier that I haddepression that went on after
the birth of my last one and Iactually started counseling
after we got the medicalassistance because that covered
it.
But there's actually aprecipitating event that made me

(01:24:15):
realize how much I needed tochange how I thought about
things, and it was.
I'm going to be honest, I don'tremember now what the actual
situation was, but it wassomething that happened with my
kids and I kind of lost mytemper and I yelled at them and
caught myself and I went in thebathroom and closed the door and
took a minute and as I wassitting there in the bathroom, I
was talking to myself and I wasnot being kind.
I was telling myself what aterrible mother I was and how

(01:24:37):
I'd lost it and I'd been such anawful and I don't know what it
was in that moment.
But it was like I was hearingmyself in a way I had never
heard myself before and Irealized in that moment I would
never let my kids talk to anyother person like that.
That is not an acceptable wayto talk to themselves, to talk
to other people.
And here I was in the privacyof my own quiet space.

(01:25:01):
I was doing it to myself and,I'll admit, I stood up and
looked in the mirror and Ilooked at myself and I said,
well, you wouldn't care if youwere a bad mom, you're a good
mom and you're going to learnfrom this.
And I did that to myself and Isaid, well, you wouldn't care if
you were a bad mom, you're agood mom and you're going to
learn from this.
And I did that to myself and Iwas like I need to do this.
Every time I catch myselfsaying those things, I have got
to tell myself the truth.
And that's what I framed it asto myself.
I've got to tell myself thetruth.

(01:25:22):
Like I said, it also led to megoing and getting some
counseling and helping me dealwith some other situations that
I was also dealing with.
But that was kind of that waskind of a tipping point for me
and I can look back at that andbe like that was.
That was like the time Irealized what I was doing and
what it was doing to me.
So I like I like to, you knowfinish that incident with the

(01:25:43):
story of what happened, but itwas roughly a year later.
I had the boys enrolled in aclass and they needed sneakers.
And my son had had a ball gameand he'd hung out with his
cousin the night before.
He left his sneakers at hiscousin's house.
So we hadn't realized it.
So we looked around, we weretrying to find his sneakers at
home.
We could not find them and Ifinally asked him well, when did

(01:26:04):
you have them last?
And he's like well, you know, Iwas with my cousin the other
day and we had them.
So I called my sister and Isaid hey, are his sneakers there
?
Yes, so I looked at him and Isaid okay, they're at, they're
at your cousin's house.
We're going to be late.
We need to do better takingcare of our stuff in the future.
But everybody, we're good to go.
Let's get in the vehicle.
We're going to go get him.
And we got there and I got inthe vehicle and we were on the

(01:26:26):
way and I caught myself talkingto myself again.
But this time I said man, younailed it.
He's learning a lesson from hisown actions.
You handled it with grace.
Everybody was like everybody'sgood and and we like you've got
this.
And I was like oh man, like itchanged and that's kind of.
Anyway, it was kind of cool.

(01:26:46):
I like to say that it justbecause you catch yourself in
those situations when yourealize that things can change.
It's not a you know, this isn'thow you have to be.
You can.
You might need help to change,but you can get there.

Speaker 2 (01:27:00):
So that was my whole story.
That's beautiful.
I've got goosebumps Becausethere's so many layers.
I am sure that are there thatyou haven't even mentioned in
that I mean me as a mom who can,who can relate to that, Like
there's so many layers there andI just, I just applaud you and

(01:27:23):
celebrate with you like that,that the dynamic can change, you
know and I know yeah.
I know, and there've beensituations in my family too
where they're, yeah, there'vebeen some real challenges and I
was like you know what's thiskid going to be like when he's
12, you know, and, and, and he's12 now, and there was a lot of

(01:27:45):
growth on my part there betweenthen and now.
But, yes, things can change.
Yes, and it's, it's so worthpursuing that change.
Yeah, but, if I can addendumwith kindness to ourselves, it's
not beating ourselves up that'sgoing to get us there.

Speaker 3 (01:28:23):
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, yeah there's.
I would tell myself things Iwould never say to anyone else,
and I remember the times to, orthe time that I finally realized
you're not allowed to do thatanymore, like you cannot say
things to yourself and, to befair, I think some of those
things we say to ourselves oftenare things that were told to us

(01:28:47):
.

Speaker 1 (01:28:47):
Yeah, and that that was one of the things as a
parent that really stuck with mewas that and I don't remember
the like years, but the voicesthat we hear inside our heads as
teens and 20 year olds are thethings our parents said to us
and that stuck with me so hard.
I'm like what am I telling mykids?
Because if that's what they'regoing to be hearing, I want to

(01:29:08):
tell them stuff.
I want them to hear Right,Right.

Speaker 2 (01:29:11):
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3 (01:29:13):
Well, thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:29:15):
Thank you so much for sharing this, Tricia, because I
know, talking about any ofthese topics related to finances
, marriage, mental health, likechildren, like all these things,
these are such deeply personaltopics and it takes a lot of
courage to share those thingsyou know, especially if you're

(01:29:35):
not, you know, a public figurewho has been sharing these
things.
I mean, yeah, I mean, I mean Ijust I just want to honor your,
your, your willingness to bevulnerable, and I know that
comes from a confidence that youhave about who you are and I

(01:29:56):
applaud that and I hope that ourlisteners find it as inspiring
as I do.
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:30:03):
You are an amazing woman and an amazing friend and
the world is lucky to have you.
Do you blog anywhere oranything?
Not currently.
No, If you ever decide you wantto let us know and we'll hook
you up.
Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:30:19):
So right now, it's just your Facebook friends that
get to see your insights.
Okay, okay, so a lucky few ofus.
Are you open to it?
If someone wants to reach outto you, sure, maybe with a
question, or maybe someone whocan identify with some part of
your, your story, would you beopen to?
To?

Speaker 1 (01:30:38):
that?
Yeah, that would be fine.
I'm trying to think of the bestway to do that.

Speaker 2 (01:30:42):
Well, do you want to just send me links afterwards,
sure.
Like to your Facebook orwhatever, whatever you're open
to and then so we'll put yoursocials in the show notes then.

Speaker 3 (01:30:53):
Okay, and then folks can find you there.

Speaker 2 (01:30:55):
All right, all right.
Well, thank you everyone forjoining us for this conversation
, and we'll talk to you nexttime.

Speaker 3 (01:31:18):
Thank you for spending time with us today.
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond what?

Speaker 2 (01:31:27):
are your thoughts about college and recovery from
high demand religion.
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences and we
want to talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atuncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom.
That's uncoveredlifebeyond atgmailcom.

Speaker 3 (01:31:46):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode Until
next time.

Speaker 2 (01:32:02):
stay brave, stay bold , stay awkward.
Thank you,

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