June 29, 2025 • 52 mins
Celebrating Rebecca's recent college graduation has been a long time coming! In this episode, we reflect on the challenges and rewards she experienced as a midlife student as well as on the complicated transition to life after graduation.
• What it was like starting college without knowing all available options or having proper guidance
• How she learned to ask for help (including successfully advocating for scholarship funds)
• Her thoughts on navigating the tension between motherhood responsibilities and educational goals and how she consciously resisted passing along the tradition of parentification
• What she discovered about the common adage that "belief is an inside job"
• How she's finding the job market as a 50-year-old new liberal arts graduate
• The comfort she's finding in fiction, writing, and supportive relationships right now--as well as the tiny house community she's dreaming of building.
See the summa cum laude graduate in her regalia! (Summa cum laude means "with highest honors") https://www.facebook.com/share/p/16jAraWNb7/
Important Announcement: The Amish Descendant Scholarship Fund offers mentorship and financial support for anyone who left an Amish or Plain community with only an eighth-grade education and is now pursuing college. Apply now for funding for the 2025-2026 school year! (Application deadline is July 20, 2025.) Visit AmishScholarship.com to apply for mentorship or scholarships, or to donate to support others' educational journeys.
Not sure if you qualify? Reach out to them with your questions before you apply. Remember, they want to help!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
This is Rebecca and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path Along the
way, we've uncovered a fewinsights we want to share with
fellow travelers.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
So whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up, we are here to cheeryou on and assure you that the
best is yet to come.
Welcome to Uncovered LifeBeyond.
Hello everyone, welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.
(01:08):
This is Naomi and this isRebecca, so today's episode is a
little different and superspecial.
I'm here with my cousin,co-host and real-life
inspiration, rebecca, who justgraduated college after seven
years of part-time classes,raising kids, running a business
(01:29):
, working jobs, being involvedin her community and podcasting
with me in the cracks between itall.
So this milestone didn't comewrapped in ease or applause.
In fact, it came after years ofnavigating a system that wasn't
designed for people like hermidlife moms, first generation
students, people rebuilding fromthe ground up and yet she did
(01:52):
it.
So in today's episode, we'retaking a moment to look back on
the road that got her here, andthen we're turning toward the
future, because graduation isn'tjust a finish line.
It's a complicated, powerfuland sometimes disorienting
beginning.
So we're going to be honestabout that part.
We're going to talk aboutwhat's next for Rebecca, what it
(02:14):
means to be a woman in midlifewith a brand new degree and a
lifetime of experience, and howwe start imagining and then
writing the next chapter whenthe ink is still wet from the
last one.
So grab a cup of coffee or apiece of celebratory cake and
join our conversation today.
Let's get into it.
(02:35):
So, rebecca, what does it feellike to say I've graduated?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Well, first of all, thank you for your kind words.
You know, saying I graduated isboth exciting and it's also
scary.
You know, when you're a student, the classes are set out there,
the expectations are told.
You get your syllabus andthere's a goal, there's a grade
to earn, and you check off theboxes and you complete it and
(03:04):
then you get that grade and Ithink I'm going to miss that.
I think I'm going to miss thestructure that is wrapped in
that.
I'm also going to miss openingup a new textbook and learning
about what's inside of it.
But it also feels good to sayyou did it, I did it, I received
(03:29):
the certificate and it feelslike weird to now be in that
category.
It's like I have a bachelor's.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
It's crazy, is it a little like waking up when
you're a kid and it's yourbirthday and you go I'm going to
be double digits, and you wakeup and the world still looks a
lot the same as it did before.
So when you think back, if youcould go back and talk to
yourself on day one of college,I just think about what a
(03:58):
different life stage you andyour kids and just everything
we're in, and how far you andyour kids and just everything
we're in, and how far you andyour family have come since then
.
What would you tell yourselfthen, as you were starting fresh
, maybe not sure what to expect?
What would you say to yourearlier self?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
So, because I live in a really rural community, I
didn't have a lot of optionsregarding colleges to attend,
and even within the options Ihad, I didn't really know what
all my options were, and I endedup picking my major from the
(04:36):
selected literally five majorsthat the branch college that I
was attending had, and I feellike it worked out for me.
At the same time, I think Imight have maybe asked more
questions and worked a bitharder to ensure that I knew
more of my options.
(04:57):
The other thing I would havedone was spent far less time
questioning whether or not I wascompetent.
Who knew that?
The thing you worry about themost really is not an issue, and
I think this is probably truefor many, many people.
It's easy to receive themessage that, because you didn't
quite get there, you're notcompetent or you're not
(05:19):
qualified, and it has so littleto do about that.
It's far more about the systemsthat we have available to us.
The other thing I went intocollege with the notion that
this was something I was doingfor me.
I was going to do this for myyounger self.
I didn't set a lofty goal.
(05:39):
I didn't have a grand plan.
My goal was simply to do it,and sometimes I think it's easy
to receive the message and maybeinternalize the message that
perhaps that was selfish andperhaps it was even frivolous or
(06:01):
almost irresponsible and that Ishould have had a more specific
plan.
And I'm not saying that I wouldhave necessarily done it
differently, but I don't think Iwas prepared for those messages
.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Those messages are so unfortunate because, while
college is a path to a careerfor many of us, especially if
you started early in life,that's not the only reason to go
to college.
In fact, I think it's far fromthe best reason, and for me, I
think it was a wonderfulprivilege that you could do it
(06:36):
just because you wanted to, andI think that's the way, that's
the ideal way to do college.
That's the way college wasoriginally.
You're talking hundreds ofyears ago how it was intended to
be done, not as job training,but just to learn for the sake
of learning, and learningbecause you loved it, you know,
and so I think it's wonderful.
(06:57):
I do understand the pressuresyou're talking about because
society tells us.
We so often get the messagethat, oh, this is supposed to be
about job training.
But if we really value women'seducation, then education is a
good in and of itself, whetheror not it leads to a career.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Well, and since when is the idea of being selfish or
doing something for yourself abad thing?
Selfish or doing something foryourself a bad thing?
I think most women, by the timethey're 50, have invested in
many, many people and in many,many different organizations,
even other people's businesses.
(07:37):
And since when is doingsomething for yourself selfish
in a bad way?
Why is that message projected?
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Exactly.
That's so important.
So you mentioned realizing thatthe thing that you were scared
of most, or the thing you fearedthe most, turned out to be the
least of your concerns.
What were some of the biggestmyths you had to unlearn about
who belongs in college?
(08:07):
What did you discover overthose years?
Speaker 2 (08:10):
I think I always believed I belonged or I didn't
spend much energy worrying aboutnot belonging.
I mean, you know you're in classwith kids not even half your
age and so quote, belonging is abit suggestive, right, like
(08:31):
like, yeah, it kind of define,or you need to kind of define
what belonging means, I guess.
Um, and of course there wereevents and situations that came
up where other people may havebeen surprised at my age and my
(08:51):
presence, but for the most partthat wasn't really an issue and
I really didn't care.
I think maybe the saddest thingI observed was other young moms
, moms younger than myself, whoshowed up for a semester or two
and then I didn't see them again, and I'm sure some of them
moved on to another part of thecollege.
(09:14):
But I know there were some ofthem that simply didn't have the
support systems to make ithappen, and I think maybe that
is something worth consideringwhen you consider college.
The ages of your kids, yourfamily dynamics, really do
matter and I hate to seesituations where you're kind of
(09:35):
set up to fail, and I think it'sworth paying attention to that.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Right.
I think it's easy to get themessage that how you do in
college, how quickly you getthere and how successful you are
when you are there and howquickly you finish, that all
this is contingent on yourintelligence and on an
individual's intelligence when,yes, it's so much of it, so much
more of it has to do with thesupport systems available.
(10:04):
And I think you know, theperson who does go for a
semester or two and then has totake time off and then gets back
into it again, is every bit asmuch a hero, you know, deserves
all the applause as much assomeone who sails through
because they're overcoming somuch to get there.
(10:25):
And I think we as a society, wetend not to give enough
recognition for the effortthat's required to overcome
those obstacles.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Yeah, and whether or not it's fair or right or good.
When my kids were younger, Iwas responsible for their daily
activities doctor's appointments, all the things and it was a
lot, and our family's livelihoodwas not dependent on me getting
(11:00):
an education.
And I think had I tried to doit when they were younger, we
would have all been frustrated.
And something I thought a lotabout was the fact that I didn't
want to make my kidsresponsible for my education.
They were involved, they were apart of it, but I didn't want
to make them feel or make themresent or suffer from the work I
(11:27):
was putting into it.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Does that make sense?
Oh, absolutely, and I thinkwhen we're you know, to anyone
who's out there consideringcollege wondering if this is
something they should pursue, myrecommendation would be don't
ask if you're smart enough, buttake a good look at your support
systems around you, and I soadmire the way that you didn't
(11:50):
expect your children to supportyou.
You know, or that to or tosacrifice for you and for your
education, and I know, I know,how much you have been there for
your kids all through, allthrough that.
And I think this is not to saythat mothers, this is not to
diminish the overwhelmingresponsibility so many mothers
(12:12):
carry, but this is to say thatthat support should be coming
from other adults around us, notfrom our kids.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
And like there's, you know, a lot of talk about
parentification and how thattends to crop up in larger
families, religious families,that type of thing, and it's
real.
That is real, that's a realthing.
But I think it can also happenin other situations and it is
(12:41):
still parentification, whetheror not it has any religious
backing or whether or not itinvolves the family's goal to
have a dozen kids, or whateverit is.
Parentification isparentification and it's
something that I wanted to becareful about and, at the end of
(13:02):
the day, my kids are notresponsible for my goals or for
my dreams.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
I love that.
I love that and not to getahead of ourselves but I love
that, at the same time, you makeroom for them to be involved
when they want to be, and we'llget to more of that later.
So, when you think back overthese last seven years, was
there a moment, or maybe morethan one, when you wanted to,
(13:30):
when you thought about quitting?
What was that situation likeand what kept you going?
Speaker 2 (13:36):
that I had to fight for scholarships.
I remember one time and I thinkI had made the mistake I was
late applying for scholarshipsand I don't know how I missed it
, but I missed it.
I usually follow those datespretty faithfully and somehow I
(14:03):
totally missed it.
And I remember making a phonecall and just saying you know I
made a mistake, is there anyscholarships that are still
available to be able to applyfor?
And the answer I received wasno, you missed the deadline.
And I said that's okay, Iunderstand, but I'm just going
to have to take a semester offbecause I didn't want to incur
(14:25):
debt.
And it was kind of interestingbecause there was just this
pause at the other end of thephone line and I guess it's not
a line anymore, but anyway therewas this pause and she goes oh,
you can't take a semester off,look at your GPA.
That's not okay, let me seewhat I can find.
And sure enough they did findscholarship money.
(14:47):
Okay, let me see what I canfind.
And sure enough they did findscholarship money.
And that was the first time Irealized I had no idea that that
would be the response I wouldget.
I seriously thought I would betaking a semester off.
But that was the first time Irealized how important it is to
state what you need, be upfrontabout it.
You don't have to beg, youdon't have to plead, you don't
have to, you know, throw a fitor anything.
But who knew that there'salways money available if you
(15:09):
just ask?
It was kind of shocking to me.
And the other thing that Ithink I struggled with a little
bit and part of this were my ownissues, I'm sure but every so
often I got into a situationwhere a professor perhaps made
it somewhat clear that maybe Ididn't belong in the classroom,
(15:33):
and even then that didn'tnecessarily make me stop.
It made me show up with evenmore energy and determination
and I was going to be there fora whole semester and I was going
to let him know I was there andI was going to let him know
that he wasn't going to stop me.
So I think maybe if we can takethose situations that someone
(15:55):
else isn't believing in, youfigure out a way to prove them
wrong.
You don't need their approvalto be there.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
I agree, I love that If you're there, you're there
and you belong as much as anyone, and I love that point about
asking for scholarships, butit's definitely worth it.
And you had mentioned earlierabout wishing you had asked more
(16:30):
questions.
You know, and I know that's thesame.
I feel the same way, like Ididn't know what all my options
were and I didn't know whatquestions to ask, and I think
that's a very typical experience.
You know, my recommendation foranyone who is in college or
thinking about or not justcollege, but maybe starting a
new career or something Like askquestions and don't feel, don't
(16:54):
hold yourself to unrealisticexpectations that say that you
should know everything, and ifsomeone makes fun of you for not
knowing something, that's theirproblem, not yours.
So, rebecca, you talked a littlebit about not expecting your
children to sacrifice for youreducation and for your dreams
(17:15):
and how you continued caring forthem throughout those years
while you were in college.
How would you say your identityas a mom shaped your experience
as a student and vice versa.
So, while there certainly canbe a tension in terms of how
you're going to spend your timeand when you're going to get up
early to do this or that or stayup late to do this or that.
(17:36):
Were there other ways thatbeing a parent while in school
shaped your experience.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
You know I've been having this thought and I wonder
how much in this case like aneducation, but I think it could
be any means of betteringyourself.
Therapy, you know, readingbooks, whatever it is.
How much of that is as much foryour kids as it is for yourself
(18:03):
?
And what if we would look atthings in that light?
How do we navigate goals anddreams?
How do we navigate therapy waysto better ourselves without
causing harm to kids?
(18:23):
Wants to ensure that we don'tpass on trauma to our kids.
At the same time, I thinkthere's a difference between
passing on trauma andinconveniencing others, and I
think I'm still mentally kind ofthinking some of that through,
and maybe that's where thetension lies.
(18:44):
Maybe that's part of thetension, because I do think many
of us grow up believing that wecan't inconvenience others,
that we have to be lowmaintenance at all costs, Like
God forbid.
I'm high maintenance, but beingwilling to live in that tension
, I think, was important for me,and I think that when I am a
(19:06):
student and have kids to thinkabout, your success becomes a
bit more large.
Yeah, there's higher stakes,but you're obviously not doing
it alone and so how can you do?
Speaker 1 (19:23):
it the central aim that everyone wins, that
everyone's needs are met,everyone benefits.
Did you discover anything aboutyourself that surprised you
through this experience?
Speaker 2 (19:50):
talking.
Perhaps this is part of whathappens when kids are
parentified because we're givenresponsibilities that we're not
qualified for.
A parentified child does notknow how to take care of younger
siblings, or they're takingcare of younger siblings and
something goes wrong, and thenthey're criticized and shamed
for not doing it properly, whenthe truth is they don't have the
(20:12):
skills, emotionally orphysically, to do that.
They are a sibling, they're nota parent.
So a lot of those thingscombined, I think, often gave me
the impression that I wassomehow incompetent, that I
always, always had to work justa little bit harder, that I
needed to constantly be changingwho.
I was somehow incompetent, thatI always, always had to work
just a little bit harder, that Ineeded to constantly be
changing who I was growing who Iwas, and I'm sure there was a
(20:38):
lot of that.
That was my inner critic.
I'm sure there were some of theliteral voices around me that
were telling me that.
But I remember realizing oneday with a particular professor
that he thought I was more thancompetent, and I guess that
actually showed up several timesand I almost remember like not
(20:59):
laughing at myself but tellingmyself that perhaps I can kind
of let go of that fear.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
That's a great feeling, and I'm so glad because
, yes, if there's anyone in thisworld who's competent, it's you
.
What were some of theunexpected joys?
Any other pleasant surprises ormoments that you'll always
remember?
So?
Speaker 2 (21:22):
the community college that I was attending had their
own little award ceremony andthen the main campus had their
own, you know, when you walkacross stage and all that.
And the local community collegegave me a very kind award and
basically it was like, you know,I don't know, I forget what it
(21:44):
was called.
I should pull it out, shouldn'tI?
Something about being, you know, not the model student of
communications, but essentiallythat was what it was Very kind,
very gracious.
It was funny.
When she was reading off theattributes of whoever was
winning this, I rememberthinking well, matt looked at me
and he's like is that you?
(22:04):
And I'm like, no, that's not me, but she sounds, sounds amazing
.
And you know, I had to thinkabout the way other people view
you, compared to how oftentimeswe critique ourselves, and I
think that those acknowledgmentsof who you are, but then also
(22:24):
how you see other people, is soimportant.
So, yeah, that was really kindof cool.
And then also, when I did crossstage to get my diploma, as my
name was called, my son, reallyloudly from the audience, was
like that's my mom.
And then there were voices thatwere like my mom, and then
(22:47):
there were voices that were likeyay, go mom.
So that was kind of cool.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
That's awesome.
I love that.
I would love nothing more thanto hear that or to read the
speech or the introduction whenyou were given that award.
I think you ought to get a holdof it.
I'd love to read that if you doso.
We've talked about theimportance of support systems,
and what were some of thosesupport systems that really made
(23:17):
a difference for you?
Maybe it didn't make everythingperfect, didn't smooth
everything out, but helped andsupported you along the way.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
You know, something I've been thinking a lot about
recently is something I reallybelieved in For years.
I believed I know I said thewords that belief in oneself was
an inside job.
I just believed that, even ifthe rest of the world didn't
believe in me, I need to believemyself, and I just kind of
bulldozed ahead and that wassomething.
(23:47):
I need to believe myself, and Ijust kind of bulldozed ahead
and that was something.
So the actual phrase was thatbelief is an inside job.
External affirmation is merelyicing on the cake, and this was
something I told myself.
This is something I advocatedfor others, and while there's a
grain of truth there, at the endof the day, we have to have our
own internal belief system.
(24:09):
I am also wondering if this iswhat people tell themselves when
their support systems arefailing, and I also wonder if
this is what is said whensomeone in leadership is not
wanting to develop relationshipsor to mentor in the way they
should.
None of us can expect the worldaround us to prop us up all day
(24:29):
long, of course.
Of course that's true.
However, it is also true thatthe messages we receive from
those closest around us tell ushow others experience us, how
others see us, and I don't thinkthat's just the icing on the
cake anymore.
I think that's an importantpart of developing both as a kid
(24:50):
and as an adult.
It's an important part ofrelationships and it's a healthy
part of relationships.
And I think about those in mylife who believed in me
throughout this process, evenwhen I didn't.
They asked me questions, theyinvested themselves in part of
(25:10):
my process.
I got it from my family, I gotit from you, naomi.
I got it from sometimes randompeople, sometimes close friends,
and I will forever be gratefulfor that.
If that was simply icing, Ineed more icing.
I mean like give it all, and Ithink we need to give that more
(25:31):
generously to those around us.
I think about kids who go intocollege who automatically have
parents who believe in them.
You know, I kind of think Idon't care if my kid's playing
soccer or making pottery ordancing.
I think they are the best kidout there and some of us didn't
(25:52):
have that growing up and I thinkmaybe it's important that we,
of course, give that toourselves but also give that to
others around us.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
I love that so much because we're not robots,
self-contained robots.
Because we're not robots,self-contained robots wandering
around bumping into each other.
As human beings, we need eachother.
We need that connection andreinforcement.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
We do, and all of us have a three-year-old and a
10-year-old and a 15-year-oldalive and well inside of us.
All of us have that, andpretending like that part of our
life doesn't exist or isn'timportant, I think really
creates a disconnect from theworld around us and the people
around us 100%.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
So, now that we've talked about some of those key
insights, those importantmoments of the past seven years,
let's talk about what's comingup next.
Let's talk about what you'rethinking about as you are
looking ahead.
I think when someone graduatesfrom college in midlife, it's a
(26:59):
mistake to think that they willdo.
You know that what happensafter graduation is going to
look just like it would if youwere 21, 22, 23 years old
graduating, and I think there'sa different set of opportunities
, there's a different set ofresources, and I think that when
(27:20):
it's not a perfect fit withwhat's conventionally expected
of someone who's graduating as ayoung adult, it can create an
extra set of challenges.
However, I hope that ourconversation here can bring hope
to anyone and excitement andencouragement to anyone who is
(27:42):
thinking about this kind of atransition in midlife, because I
personally think there are somereally really exciting
advantages that also come withwhatever is going to come next,
when you are equipped with thelife experience and the insight
and learning that someone likeyou has.
(28:03):
So how are you navigating thisin between space this before,
after the degree, but before thenext thing feeling, where are
you at in that?
Speaker 2 (28:13):
So, yeah, I wasn't quite prepared for this.
I think I've spent a lot oftime kind of feeling like a
fraud and I'm also realizingthat and you mentioned this it's
kind of in some ways mentionedthis.
It's kind of in some ways Idon't know if unfair is the
right word to be a femalestay-at-home mom for most of
(28:33):
their years all of a suddenlooking at quote a career.
And while I was in college Iliked my job, but I kind of did
(29:14):
this job because I could do itpart-time, the hours were
flexible and I made good money.
In hindsight I should haveprobably worked harder to get a
quote career job that maybewasn't as flexible and maybe
didn't pay as much because itwould have gave me a leg up on a
quote career.
I don't know, I'm just throwingthat out there.
The unfortunate thing is,wherever you are, you kind of
have to do what works for you inthe moment to survive too.
So I don't say what I saidthere in judging anybody
certainly not judging myself,because I had to do what I had
to do.
And also I went into collegewithout and I think I mentioned
(29:39):
this before opposed to someonewho, say, goes into nursing or
(30:05):
gets a specific degree to do aspecific thing.
But yeah, sitting here in thisspace has been a little
uncomfortable and it's been alittle frustrating because, as
it turns out, I probably willneed to be working more hours
and finding more income.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
What are some of those messages that you're
getting, maybe from employers orthe world, your own inner
critic, or maybe not even aninner critic, but like your kind
of expectations of yourself?
What are some of those messagesthat you're getting that are
contributing to that sense, thatuncomfortable sense that you're
(30:49):
feeling?
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Well, somehow I am both underqualified, but yet I
am overqualified, and somehow Ihave skills qualified, and
somehow I have skills but notenough skills.
Um and and sometimes I they it.
The message is kind of giventhat you don't have, I don't
have enough um experience.
(31:10):
But then also people are afraidI'm using this job as a
stepping stone, like that onekind of like, wow, I was not
expecting that.
And, honestly, the response Igave to that was like I was
completely puzzled.
But I'm like I am 50.
I am tired.
(31:33):
I am happy if I don't have onemore stepping stone in my life.
I had just never consideredsending out an application with
the idea of using it as astepping stone.
So I think, at the end of theday, I kind of feel like, and
with these applications thatI've sent out and I've sent out
a bunch, I kind of feel likethere's some kind of expectation
(31:56):
that I just don't know about.
And the funny thing is and I'llmock myself here I put on my
resume that I'm intuitive and Iall of a sudden was like
laughing at myself and I'm likeI think maybe I should take that
(32:17):
off my resume because I have noidea what people are wanting.
I have like no idea what peopleare wanting.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Well, first let me say that I know from personal
experience that the job marketis a soul sucking place.
If I hear sometimes aboutpeople who, you know, have a job
lined up months beforegraduation, I have no idea what
that's like.
Well, okay, I guess I did, Iguess, once that happened.
(32:48):
But, generally speaking, Ithink we don't say enough about
just how demoralizing the jobmarket can be, and I have, at
the risk of discouraging youfurther, I have sent you some of
the headlines that I've seenabout this year 2025, being a
(33:09):
particularly difficult year fornew grads.
So I guess I would say, notjust to you, rebecca, but to
anyone out there who is jobhunting right now please know
it's not you.
Please know your contributionsare needed.
Whether or not there is thefunding available to compensate
(33:32):
you fairly for that is anotherissue and that's a whole other
rabbit hole we could go down.
But the reality is that the jobmarket sucks and we don't have
many narratives to talk aboutthis in our society without just
blaming ourselves and thinkingthat we ourselves are
incompetent, and I don't knowhow to fix this.
(33:53):
I wish I did, except that thisis kind of my cold comfort, dark
encouragement whatever you callit that I offer to folks when I
know they're heading into thejob market.
Is you know or like, say, maybethe academic job market, which
is particularly harrowing?
It's not you, the system sucks.
And it's not you and yourskills, your abilities, what you
(34:18):
have to offer, is desperatelyneeded.
The fact that that positionisn't, that you're not finding
that position, you're notfinding the right fit, all that
it's a reflection of the system.
It's not a reflection on you.
And, as I've said to you,rebecca, that I think someone in
your stage in life is going tohave a lot more success.
(34:39):
Your stage in life is going tohave a lot more success working
your personal networks andtalking to people you know.
The research shows that we'relikely to get a job from someone
who is, or through someone whois, an acquaintance, and so I
think that throwing your resumeinto the stack of all the other
(35:02):
resumes is not a great idea,even when you are early in your
career, but it's definitely notan efficient way to get a job
when you are someone with a lotof life experience, but maybe a
fairly new degree or fairly newqualifications, in that sense.
So I don't know if that'sremotely helpful to anyone.
(35:25):
But again, the bottom line isyou don't suck the job market
sucks.
And work your network like talkto people, talk to people.
Talk to people.
I mean, I know well, I thinkyou've experienced too, when you
were working with, when you've,when you're talking with
potential employers who know youpersonally, it's a different
(35:47):
conversation than those whodon't.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Sometimes it is, but not always.
Yeah, sometimes, but not alwaysFair.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
And fair, fair, and I'm not.
I'm not suggesting that any ofthese are the easy ways.
I'm just saying statistically,for most people, most of the
time, it works that way and thatif someone is, you know,
applying to tons of jobs throughany of the big job boards and
not getting positive engagement,that again that approach does.
(36:20):
The odds are not in your favorwith that approach, within
anyone's favor, and so workingpersonal networks are usually
much more productive.
But that doesn't mean it'sgoing to be easy.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
That's not what I'm saying right, because the thing
is Engaging with people, youknow, has its own hazard, and
the lack of engagement ordismissal then becomes personal
(36:53):
too.
Level there.
That I think doesn't get talkedabout either.
And I just think parents, ifyou're listening, send your
daughters to college, make surethey get a degree when they're
(37:14):
young, make sure they get lifeexperiences when they're young.
And again, I don't regretgetting my degree.
I am so glad I did that and atthe end of the day I did it for
me.
But I think if I had done it forany other reason but for myself
, it would be a really difficultposition to be in right now.
(37:35):
People don't know what to dowith a woman at 50 who has more
or less been a stay-at-home momwith a new degree.
It feels like people are unsurewhat to do with that.
And again, again, I probablyshould have done things a bit
differently.
I should have probably got ajob earlier and used it as a
(37:59):
stepping stone.
I probably should have donemore of that type of thing.
But again, you need to do whatyou need to do in order to
survive and what makes sense inthe moment.
(38:22):
College that was more of afull-time position, more of a
career-oriented position and Ihad a panic attack.
I had to get my kids to thedoctor.
They were giving me a hard timewith taking off for doctor's
appointments.
I mean, what is a mom supposedto do?
And the funny thing is theyliked me.
They liked the work I did, butthey wanted me to show up as if
I didn't have a family.
And I think about thatexperience often, because it's
(38:46):
even like if you try, if you tryto do that, you're supposed to
show up as if you're not gettingan education.
You're supposed to show up asif you don't have a family.
And there just isn't an easyway to win.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
Thank you for sharing that, because I think that's so
true.
And again, another example ofhow it's not you, it's the
system, and and I have eitherspoken to or read about so many
other women who are A in yoursituation or B in your situation
(39:25):
, with years of professionalexperience, who are in a very
similar place as far as findinga job that works for their life,
and it sucks.
I mean, the system's notworking for so many of us.
And I think, as we're sittinghere recording, we happen to be
in your living room instead ofrecording over Zoom, and I'm
(39:51):
surrounded by pictures of thecutest babies and toddlers and
kiddos ever that you wereraising, and all we can do is
what we can do in the momentwith the information and the
resources we have available atthe time, and you knocked it out
of the park.
I want you to know that.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Thank you and you know, at the end of the day, I
don't really regret thedecisions I did make.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
We just have to be kinder with the expectations we
put on other people, we put onourselves and I don't know.
We just have to be kinder withthe expectations we put on other
people we put on ourselves andI don't know how to navigate
that.
I don't know how to hold thosetensions.
I am working on it.
I think I'm learning better howto do that.
But yeah, the frustration isthere, it's real, and I am to
(40:41):
the point and I do have a jobposition I am taking and the
boss that I'm talking to isamazing going to a clinic that's
like five hours from herethroughout this summer for some
chronic illnesses that they'vebeen dealing with and I, because
(41:07):
of my other job experience, wasup front with him and I'm like
this is the reality of my summer.
If it's going to be a problem,then you probably need to just
go and find someone else or hiresomeone else, Because at the
end of the day and I think thisis the unfair reality at the end
(41:28):
of the day, a mother,especially, is expected to take
care of their kids, attenddoctor's appointments, kids
attend doctor's appointments,and not that Matt doesn't help
with that, but it often falls onme unless I specifically say
otherwise.
And I just don't know how momsjuggle that.
(41:52):
I mean, Naomi, you've done thisfor years, juggling the
doctor's appointments, jugglingthe school stuff, juggling all
of it, and I don't know.
Somehow we have to come up witha better system.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
I couldn't agree more .
So when you are, you'rethinking about A.
You've just run this marathon,you've got the awards, but now
here's life after the marathon,and you're in this transition
period of trying to figure outwhat that's going to look like.
We've talked about what so manyof those challenges are, and
(42:25):
challenges that many of us share.
So, in the context of all this,who or what is giving you
energy and hope during this timeand when you envision your life
, say, two years from now, whatis giving your life meaning?
What is giving you energy thatis pulling you toward that
(42:50):
moment?
Speaker 2 (42:51):
So I kind of laugh.
For many years, many, manyyears, I really bought into the
whole notion of junk in, junkout, which, translated to you,
only read Christian books orgood self-help books, or else
that was the only way to getgood out, and what a waste
(43:16):
anyway.
What a waste.
I look at my time that I spentin that space and I just think,
oh, my goodness, lighten up.
But anyway, right now I've beenreading fiction books a lot,
books that have absolutely novalue in my life, but they give
me a place to live, a place todisappear and live through them
(43:43):
and relax.
But the funny thing is, evenwithin fiction books there's a
lot of good stuff in it, and so,for whatever that's worth, I've
been reading fiction books alot, a couple of weeks actually.
Sometimes I've also beenwriting a lot.
Oddly enough and I think I'veheard other writers talk about
(44:05):
this too when you're slightlydepressed you almost write
better sometimes, which I thinkis fascinating.
But then close family andfriends have been absolutely
life-giving.
And the other thing that's kindof nice at this age is, you
know we can now tap intoemotional skills that you know
(44:28):
work, and at this point in lifeyou kind of know nothing is
forever.
Sucky stages come.
Sucky stages go Success come.
Sucky stages, go Success.
Whatever that is comes and itgoes, and even though perhaps
you're not always feelingsuccessful, it doesn't mean
(44:49):
you're an absolute loss either.
So just having the benefit ofage or call it maturity,
whatever that has been kind ofhelpful it's been very helpful
and just the continuing ofreparenting myself that
(45:12):
12-year-old is still afraidwe're not going to make it, that
12-year-old is still afraidthat we're getting lost in all
of life, but reminding them thatwe're going to be okay.
And not only are we going to beokay, we're going to figure out
, we're going to do more thanokay, we're going to thrive.
It has been helpful and justtapping into the belief that I
(45:36):
give to my kids and allowingmyself to experience that as
well.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
I love that and I think that emotional
intelligence that you're talkingabout there is such such a
powerful resource that many ofus have learned by midlife.
So I'd love to hear where wouldyou like this to take you in
two years?
Like two years kind ofarbitrary timeframe, but what do
(46:03):
you hope your life looks like?
Or what are the?
What are the big dreams?
Cause I know you, you don't doanything halfway.
What are some things you'rehoping for?
Because not that I reallybelieve in manifesting, but hey,
can't hurt, right.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
Yeah right, manifest that shit.
So I'm kind of in a situationright now where mama needs to
make some money and long term.
My final class that I had to doto graduate, actually, I had to
develop a business plan and Iremember being surprised at how
impressed my professor was withthe business plan, and it
(46:53):
includes a tiny house, communityand a place where people can
come, people can go, but a safeplace.
And I think in many ways thecommunity that I envision
building isn't just a safe placefor other people, it's a safe
(47:14):
place for me too, and maybe it'ssomething I want for myself,
but I want to be able to give toothers.
I want a quiet space to be, toput around in a garden if I want
to, but also space to write andto build connections, but with
a sense of purpose and a senseof freedom.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
I love that vision so much and for so many reasons.
A I think you'd be amazing atit and at developing something
like that and welcoming peopleinto it.
And also, the rising housingcosts are making life difficult
for so, so many of us, and Ithink that we need more ideas
(47:59):
like this one in the world tohelp us think about how housing
and community can be made moreaccessible for more people.
It's such an important need.
So, before we wrap up today, wewanted to make a quick
announcement about a quick butimportant announcement about the
Amish Descendant ScholarshipFund and a quick but important
announcement about the AmishDescendant Scholarship Fund.
(48:20):
We met one of the founders ofthis fund last summer at the
symposium at Elizabethtown andwe'll be putting a link in the
show notes to the website.
The message from the fund is foranyone who's left an Amish or a
(48:40):
Plain community with only aneighth grade education, who is
now either trying to find theirway to college or finding their
way through college.
The Amish DescendantsScholarship Fund can help anyone
who fits that description in acouple of ways.
One through mentorship matchingup with a mentor who grew up
Amish or Plain and has chosen topursue education and they can
(49:03):
offer some guidance,encouragement, support, moral
support.
You know whether someone iswondering if college is for them
or maybe they're already in itand to be involved with that
mentorship program, please visitAmishScholarshipcom to apply
not only for the mentorship butthen also for the scholarship.
(49:25):
I think the scholarshipdeadline is for this year is
toward the end of July, that's2025.
Now if you're not attendingcollege but maybe you want to
support folks who are, we inviteyou to consider donating to the
Amish Descendant ScholarshipFund through the link on their
site and so that also will belinked to the show notes.
(49:47):
Your contributions to this fundcould make a massive difference
in someone's life.
I know that the fund helpssupport Rebecca through part of
her education, and we all knowthe world needs more Rebecca's
and fewer barriers.
So, rebecca, you've graduated,you've crossed this massive
threshold that you built plankby plank, often while carrying
(50:11):
others across with you, and Ihope you know with your whole
self that this moment matters.
And to our listeners, if you'rein the middle of a long road,
if your dreams are taking thescenic route, or if you're
starting over later than youthought you would, you're not
behind, you're on your owntimeline and you are worth
(50:32):
showing up for yourself againand again.
Let this episode be proof thatit's never too late to choose
yourself to finish what youstarted or to start something
completely new.
Rebecca, thank you for sharingyour story with us.
You're not just a graduate,you're a mapmaker.
(50:52):
So until next time, friends,keep going, keep dreaming and
make your own path.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
Thank you for spending time with us today.
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 1 (51:14):
What are your thoughts about college and
recovery from high demandreligion?
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences and we
want to talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atuncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom.
That's uncoveredlifebeyond atgmailcom.
Speaker 2 (51:34):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
Until next time stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward.
Thank you.
This is Rebecca and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path Along the
way, we've uncovered a fewinsights we want to share with
fellow travelers.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
So whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up, we are here to cheeryou on and assure you that the
best is yet to come.
Welcome to Uncovered LifeBeyond.
Hello everyone, welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.
(01:08):
This is Naomi and this isRebecca, so today's episode is a
little different and superspecial.
I'm here with my cousin,co-host and real-life
inspiration, rebecca, who justgraduated college after seven
years of part-time classes,raising kids, running a business
(01:29):
, working jobs, being involvedin her community and podcasting
with me in the cracks between itall.
So this milestone didn't comewrapped in ease or applause.
In fact, it came after years ofnavigating a system that wasn't
designed for people like hermidlife moms, first generation
students, people rebuilding fromthe ground up and yet she did
(01:52):
it.
So in today's episode, we'retaking a moment to look back on
the road that got her here, andthen we're turning toward the
future, because graduation isn'tjust a finish line.
It's a complicated, powerfuland sometimes disorienting
beginning.
So we're going to be honestabout that part.
We're going to talk aboutwhat's next for Rebecca, what it
(02:14):
means to be a woman in midlifewith a brand new degree and a
lifetime of experience, and howwe start imagining and then
writing the next chapter whenthe ink is still wet from the
last one.
So grab a cup of coffee or apiece of celebratory cake and
join our conversation today.
Let's get into it.
(02:35):
So, rebecca, what does it feellike to say I've graduated?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Well, first of all, thank you for your kind words.
You know, saying I graduated isboth exciting and it's also
scary.
You know, when you're a student, the classes are set out there,
the expectations are told.
You get your syllabus andthere's a goal, there's a grade
to earn, and you check off theboxes and you complete it and
(03:04):
then you get that grade and Ithink I'm going to miss that.
I think I'm going to miss thestructure that is wrapped in
that.
I'm also going to miss openingup a new textbook and learning
about what's inside of it.
But it also feels good to sayyou did it, I did it, I received
(03:29):
the certificate and it feelslike weird to now be in that
category.
It's like I have a bachelor's.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
It's crazy, is it a little like waking up when
you're a kid and it's yourbirthday and you go I'm going to
be double digits, and you wakeup and the world still looks a
lot the same as it did before.
So when you think back, if youcould go back and talk to
yourself on day one of college,I just think about what a
(03:58):
different life stage you andyour kids and just everything
we're in, and how far you andyour kids and just everything
we're in, and how far you andyour family have come since then
.
What would you tell yourselfthen, as you were starting fresh
, maybe not sure what to expect?
What would you say to yourearlier self?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
So, because I live in a really rural community, I
didn't have a lot of optionsregarding colleges to attend,
and even within the options Ihad, I didn't really know what
all my options were, and I endedup picking my major from the
(04:36):
selected literally five majorsthat the branch college that I
was attending had, and I feellike it worked out for me.
At the same time, I think Imight have maybe asked more
questions and worked a bitharder to ensure that I knew
more of my options.
(04:57):
The other thing I would havedone was spent far less time
questioning whether or not I wascompetent.
Who knew that?
The thing you worry about themost really is not an issue, and
I think this is probably truefor many, many people.
It's easy to receive themessage that, because you didn't
quite get there, you're notcompetent or you're not
(05:19):
qualified, and it has so littleto do about that.
It's far more about the systemsthat we have available to us.
The other thing I went intocollege with the notion that
this was something I was doingfor me.
I was going to do this for myyounger self.
I didn't set a lofty goal.
(05:39):
I didn't have a grand plan.
My goal was simply to do it,and sometimes I think it's easy
to receive the message and maybeinternalize the message that
perhaps that was selfish andperhaps it was even frivolous or
(06:01):
almost irresponsible and that Ishould have had a more specific
plan.
And I'm not saying that I wouldhave necessarily done it
differently, but I don't think Iwas prepared for those messages
.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Those messages are so unfortunate because, while
college is a path to a careerfor many of us, especially if
you started early in life,that's not the only reason to go
to college.
In fact, I think it's far fromthe best reason, and for me, I
think it was a wonderfulprivilege that you could do it
(06:36):
just because you wanted to, andI think that's the way, that's
the ideal way to do college.
That's the way college wasoriginally.
You're talking hundreds ofyears ago how it was intended to
be done, not as job training,but just to learn for the sake
of learning, and learningbecause you loved it, you know,
and so I think it's wonderful.
(06:57):
I do understand the pressuresyou're talking about because
society tells us.
We so often get the messagethat, oh, this is supposed to be
about job training.
But if we really value women'seducation, then education is a
good in and of itself, whetheror not it leads to a career.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Well, and since when is the idea of being selfish or
doing something for yourself abad thing?
Selfish or doing something foryourself a bad thing?
I think most women, by the timethey're 50, have invested in
many, many people and in many,many different organizations,
even other people's businesses.
(07:37):
And since when is doingsomething for yourself selfish
in a bad way?
Why is that message projected?
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Exactly.
That's so important.
So you mentioned realizing thatthe thing that you were scared
of most, or the thing you fearedthe most, turned out to be the
least of your concerns.
What were some of the biggestmyths you had to unlearn about
who belongs in college?
(08:07):
What did you discover overthose years?
Speaker 2 (08:10):
I think I always believed I belonged or I didn't
spend much energy worrying aboutnot belonging.
I mean, you know you're in classwith kids not even half your
age and so quote, belonging is abit suggestive, right, like
(08:31):
like, yeah, it kind of define,or you need to kind of define
what belonging means, I guess.
Um, and of course there wereevents and situations that came
up where other people may havebeen surprised at my age and my
(08:51):
presence, but for the most partthat wasn't really an issue and
I really didn't care.
I think maybe the saddest thingI observed was other young moms
, moms younger than myself, whoshowed up for a semester or two
and then I didn't see them again, and I'm sure some of them
moved on to another part of thecollege.
(09:14):
But I know there were some ofthem that simply didn't have the
support systems to make ithappen, and I think maybe that
is something worth consideringwhen you consider college.
The ages of your kids, yourfamily dynamics, really do
matter and I hate to seesituations where you're kind of
(09:35):
set up to fail, and I think it'sworth paying attention to that.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Right.
I think it's easy to get themessage that how you do in
college, how quickly you getthere and how successful you are
when you are there and howquickly you finish, that all
this is contingent on yourintelligence and on an
individual's intelligence when,yes, it's so much of it, so much
more of it has to do with thesupport systems available.
(10:04):
And I think you know, theperson who does go for a
semester or two and then has totake time off and then gets back
into it again, is every bit asmuch a hero, you know, deserves
all the applause as much assomeone who sails through
because they're overcoming somuch to get there.
(10:25):
And I think we as a society, wetend not to give enough
recognition for the effortthat's required to overcome
those obstacles.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Yeah, and whether or not it's fair or right or good.
When my kids were younger, Iwas responsible for their daily
activities doctor's appointments, all the things and it was a
lot, and our family's livelihoodwas not dependent on me getting
(11:00):
an education.
And I think had I tried to doit when they were younger, we
would have all been frustrated.
And something I thought a lotabout was the fact that I didn't
want to make my kidsresponsible for my education.
They were involved, they were apart of it, but I didn't want
to make them feel or make themresent or suffer from the work I
(11:27):
was putting into it.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Does that make sense?
Oh, absolutely, and I thinkwhen we're you know, to anyone
who's out there consideringcollege wondering if this is
something they should pursue, myrecommendation would be don't
ask if you're smart enough, buttake a good look at your support
systems around you, and I soadmire the way that you didn't
(11:50):
expect your children to supportyou.
You know, or that to or tosacrifice for you and for your
education, and I know, I know,how much you have been there for
your kids all through, allthrough that.
And I think this is not to saythat mothers, this is not to
diminish the overwhelmingresponsibility so many mothers
(12:12):
carry, but this is to say thatthat support should be coming
from other adults around us, notfrom our kids.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
And like there's, you know, a lot of talk about
parentification and how thattends to crop up in larger
families, religious families,that type of thing, and it's
real.
That is real, that's a realthing.
But I think it can also happenin other situations and it is
(12:41):
still parentification, whetheror not it has any religious
backing or whether or not itinvolves the family's goal to
have a dozen kids, or whateverit is.
Parentification isparentification and it's
something that I wanted to becareful about and, at the end of
(13:02):
the day, my kids are notresponsible for my goals or for
my dreams.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
I love that.
I love that and not to getahead of ourselves but I love
that, at the same time, you makeroom for them to be involved
when they want to be, and we'llget to more of that later.
So, when you think back overthese last seven years, was
there a moment, or maybe morethan one, when you wanted to,
(13:30):
when you thought about quitting?
What was that situation likeand what kept you going?
Speaker 2 (13:36):
that I had to fight for scholarships.
I remember one time and I thinkI had made the mistake I was
late applying for scholarshipsand I don't know how I missed it
, but I missed it.
I usually follow those datespretty faithfully and somehow I
(14:03):
totally missed it.
And I remember making a phonecall and just saying you know I
made a mistake, is there anyscholarships that are still
available to be able to applyfor?
And the answer I received wasno, you missed the deadline.
And I said that's okay, Iunderstand, but I'm just going
to have to take a semester offbecause I didn't want to incur
(14:25):
debt.
And it was kind of interestingbecause there was just this
pause at the other end of thephone line and I guess it's not
a line anymore, but anyway therewas this pause and she goes oh,
you can't take a semester off,look at your GPA.
That's not okay, let me seewhat I can find.
And sure enough they did findscholarship money.
(14:47):
Okay, let me see what I canfind.
And sure enough they did findscholarship money.
And that was the first time Irealized I had no idea that that
would be the response I wouldget.
I seriously thought I would betaking a semester off.
But that was the first time Irealized how important it is to
state what you need, be upfrontabout it.
You don't have to beg, youdon't have to plead, you don't
have to, you know, throw a fitor anything.
But who knew that there'salways money available if you
(15:09):
just ask?
It was kind of shocking to me.
And the other thing that Ithink I struggled with a little
bit and part of this were my ownissues, I'm sure but every so
often I got into a situationwhere a professor perhaps made
it somewhat clear that maybe Ididn't belong in the classroom,
(15:33):
and even then that didn'tnecessarily make me stop.
It made me show up with evenmore energy and determination
and I was going to be there fora whole semester and I was going
to let him know I was there andI was going to let him know
that he wasn't going to stop me.
So I think maybe if we can takethose situations that someone
(15:55):
else isn't believing in, youfigure out a way to prove them
wrong.
You don't need their approvalto be there.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
I agree, I love that If you're there, you're there
and you belong as much as anyone, and I love that point about
asking for scholarships, butit's definitely worth it.
And you had mentioned earlierabout wishing you had asked more
(16:30):
questions.
You know, and I know that's thesame.
I feel the same way, like Ididn't know what all my options
were and I didn't know whatquestions to ask, and I think
that's a very typical experience.
You know, my recommendation foranyone who is in college or
thinking about or not justcollege, but maybe starting a
new career or something Like askquestions and don't feel, don't
(16:54):
hold yourself to unrealisticexpectations that say that you
should know everything, and ifsomeone makes fun of you for not
knowing something, that's theirproblem, not yours.
So, rebecca, you talked a littlebit about not expecting your
children to sacrifice for youreducation and for your dreams
(17:15):
and how you continued caring forthem throughout those years
while you were in college.
How would you say your identityas a mom shaped your experience
as a student and vice versa.
So, while there certainly canbe a tension in terms of how
you're going to spend your timeand when you're going to get up
early to do this or that or stayup late to do this or that.
(17:36):
Were there other ways thatbeing a parent while in school
shaped your experience.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
You know I've been having this thought and I wonder
how much in this case like aneducation, but I think it could
be any means of betteringyourself.
Therapy, you know, readingbooks, whatever it is.
How much of that is as much foryour kids as it is for yourself
(18:03):
?
And what if we would look atthings in that light?
How do we navigate goals anddreams?
How do we navigate therapy waysto better ourselves without
causing harm to kids?
(18:23):
Wants to ensure that we don'tpass on trauma to our kids.
At the same time, I thinkthere's a difference between
passing on trauma andinconveniencing others, and I
think I'm still mentally kind ofthinking some of that through,
and maybe that's where thetension lies.
(18:44):
Maybe that's part of thetension, because I do think many
of us grow up believing that wecan't inconvenience others,
that we have to be lowmaintenance at all costs, Like
God forbid.
I'm high maintenance, but beingwilling to live in that tension
, I think, was important for me,and I think that when I am a
(19:06):
student and have kids to thinkabout, your success becomes a
bit more large.
Yeah, there's higher stakes,but you're obviously not doing
it alone and so how can you do?
Speaker 1 (19:23):
it the central aim that everyone wins, that
everyone's needs are met,everyone benefits.
Did you discover anything aboutyourself that surprised you
through this experience?
Speaker 2 (19:50):
talking.
Perhaps this is part of whathappens when kids are
parentified because we're givenresponsibilities that we're not
qualified for.
A parentified child does notknow how to take care of younger
siblings, or they're takingcare of younger siblings and
something goes wrong, and thenthey're criticized and shamed
for not doing it properly, whenthe truth is they don't have the
(20:12):
skills, emotionally orphysically, to do that.
They are a sibling, they're nota parent.
So a lot of those thingscombined, I think, often gave me
the impression that I wassomehow incompetent, that I
always, always had to work justa little bit harder, that I
needed to constantly be changingwho.
I was somehow incompetent, thatI always, always had to work
just a little bit harder, that Ineeded to constantly be
changing who I was growing who Iwas, and I'm sure there was a
(20:38):
lot of that.
That was my inner critic.
I'm sure there were some of theliteral voices around me that
were telling me that.
But I remember realizing oneday with a particular professor
that he thought I was more thancompetent, and I guess that
actually showed up several timesand I almost remember like not
(20:59):
laughing at myself but tellingmyself that perhaps I can kind
of let go of that fear.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
That's a great feeling, and I'm so glad because
, yes, if there's anyone in thisworld who's competent, it's you
.
What were some of theunexpected joys?
Any other pleasant surprises ormoments that you'll always
remember?
So?
Speaker 2 (21:22):
the community college that I was attending had their
own little award ceremony andthen the main campus had their
own, you know, when you walkacross stage and all that.
And the local community collegegave me a very kind award and
basically it was like, you know,I don't know, I forget what it
(21:44):
was called.
I should pull it out, shouldn'tI?
Something about being, you know, not the model student of
communications, but essentiallythat was what it was Very kind,
very gracious.
It was funny.
When she was reading off theattributes of whoever was
winning this, I rememberthinking well, matt looked at me
and he's like is that you?
(22:04):
And I'm like, no, that's not me, but she sounds, sounds amazing
.
And you know, I had to thinkabout the way other people view
you, compared to how oftentimeswe critique ourselves, and I
think that those acknowledgmentsof who you are, but then also
(22:24):
how you see other people, is soimportant.
So, yeah, that was really kindof cool.
And then also, when I did crossstage to get my diploma, as my
name was called, my son, reallyloudly from the audience, was
like that's my mom.
And then there were voices thatwere like my mom, and then
(22:47):
there were voices that were likeyay, go mom.
So that was kind of cool.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
That's awesome.
I love that.
I would love nothing more thanto hear that or to read the
speech or the introduction whenyou were given that award.
I think you ought to get a holdof it.
I'd love to read that if you doso.
We've talked about theimportance of support systems,
and what were some of thosesupport systems that really made
(23:17):
a difference for you?
Maybe it didn't make everythingperfect, didn't smooth
everything out, but helped andsupported you along the way.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
You know, something I've been thinking a lot about
recently is something I reallybelieved in For years.
I believed I know I said thewords that belief in oneself was
an inside job.
I just believed that, even ifthe rest of the world didn't
believe in me, I need to believemyself, and I just kind of
bulldozed ahead and that wassomething.
(23:47):
I need to believe myself, and Ijust kind of bulldozed ahead
and that was something.
So the actual phrase was thatbelief is an inside job.
External affirmation is merelyicing on the cake, and this was
something I told myself.
This is something I advocatedfor others, and while there's a
grain of truth there, at the endof the day, we have to have our
own internal belief system.
(24:09):
I am also wondering if this iswhat people tell themselves when
their support systems arefailing, and I also wonder if
this is what is said whensomeone in leadership is not
wanting to develop relationshipsor to mentor in the way they
should.
None of us can expect the worldaround us to prop us up all day
(24:29):
long, of course.
Of course that's true.
However, it is also true thatthe messages we receive from
those closest around us tell ushow others experience us, how
others see us, and I don't thinkthat's just the icing on the
cake anymore.
I think that's an importantpart of developing both as a kid
(24:50):
and as an adult.
It's an important part ofrelationships and it's a healthy
part of relationships.
And I think about those in mylife who believed in me
throughout this process, evenwhen I didn't.
They asked me questions, theyinvested themselves in part of
(25:10):
my process.
I got it from my family, I gotit from you, naomi.
I got it from sometimes randompeople, sometimes close friends,
and I will forever be gratefulfor that.
If that was simply icing, Ineed more icing.
I mean like give it all, and Ithink we need to give that more
(25:31):
generously to those around us.
I think about kids who go intocollege who automatically have
parents who believe in them.
You know, I kind of think Idon't care if my kid's playing
soccer or making pottery ordancing.
I think they are the best kidout there and some of us didn't
(25:52):
have that growing up and I thinkmaybe it's important that we,
of course, give that toourselves but also give that to
others around us.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
I love that so much because we're not robots,
self-contained robots.
Because we're not robots,self-contained robots wandering
around bumping into each other.
As human beings, we need eachother.
We need that connection andreinforcement.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
We do, and all of us have a three-year-old and a
10-year-old and a 15-year-oldalive and well inside of us.
All of us have that, andpretending like that part of our
life doesn't exist or isn'timportant, I think really
creates a disconnect from theworld around us and the people
around us 100%.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
So, now that we've talked about some of those key
insights, those importantmoments of the past seven years,
let's talk about what's comingup next.
Let's talk about what you'rethinking about as you are
looking ahead.
I think when someone graduatesfrom college in midlife, it's a
(26:59):
mistake to think that they willdo.
You know that what happensafter graduation is going to
look just like it would if youwere 21, 22, 23 years old
graduating, and I think there'sa different set of opportunities
, there's a different set ofresources, and I think that when
(27:20):
it's not a perfect fit withwhat's conventionally expected
of someone who's graduating as ayoung adult, it can create an
extra set of challenges.
However, I hope that ourconversation here can bring hope
to anyone and excitement andencouragement to anyone who is
(27:42):
thinking about this kind of atransition in midlife, because I
personally think there are somereally really exciting
advantages that also come withwhatever is going to come next,
when you are equipped with thelife experience and the insight
and learning that someone likeyou has.
(28:03):
So how are you navigating thisin between space this before,
after the degree, but before thenext thing feeling, where are
you at in that?
Speaker 2 (28:13):
So, yeah, I wasn't quite prepared for this.
I think I've spent a lot oftime kind of feeling like a
fraud and I'm also realizingthat and you mentioned this it's
kind of in some ways mentionedthis.
It's kind of in some ways Idon't know if unfair is the
right word to be a femalestay-at-home mom for most of
(28:33):
their years all of a suddenlooking at quote a career.
And while I was in college Iliked my job, but I kind of did
(29:14):
this job because I could do itpart-time, the hours were
flexible and I made good money.
In hindsight I should haveprobably worked harder to get a
quote career job that maybewasn't as flexible and maybe
didn't pay as much because itwould have gave me a leg up on a
quote career.
I don't know, I'm just throwingthat out there.
The unfortunate thing is,wherever you are, you kind of
have to do what works for you inthe moment to survive too.
So I don't say what I saidthere in judging anybody
certainly not judging myself,because I had to do what I had
to do.
And also I went into collegewithout and I think I mentioned
(29:39):
this before opposed to someonewho, say, goes into nursing or
(30:05):
gets a specific degree to do aspecific thing.
But yeah, sitting here in thisspace has been a little
uncomfortable and it's been alittle frustrating because, as
it turns out, I probably willneed to be working more hours
and finding more income.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
What are some of those messages that you're
getting, maybe from employers orthe world, your own inner
critic, or maybe not even aninner critic, but like your kind
of expectations of yourself?
What are some of those messagesthat you're getting that are
contributing to that sense, thatuncomfortable sense that you're
(30:49):
feeling?
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Well, somehow I am both underqualified, but yet I
am overqualified, and somehow Ihave skills qualified, and
somehow I have skills but notenough skills.
Um and and sometimes I they it.
The message is kind of giventhat you don't have, I don't
have enough um experience.
(31:10):
But then also people are afraidI'm using this job as a
stepping stone, like that onekind of like, wow, I was not
expecting that.
And, honestly, the response Igave to that was like I was
completely puzzled.
But I'm like I am 50.
I am tired.
(31:33):
I am happy if I don't have onemore stepping stone in my life.
I had just never consideredsending out an application with
the idea of using it as astepping stone.
So I think, at the end of theday, I kind of feel like, and
with these applications thatI've sent out and I've sent out
a bunch, I kind of feel likethere's some kind of expectation
(31:56):
that I just don't know about.
And the funny thing is and I'llmock myself here I put on my
resume that I'm intuitive and Iall of a sudden was like
laughing at myself and I'm likeI think maybe I should take that
(32:17):
off my resume because I have noidea what people are wanting.
I have like no idea what peopleare wanting.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Well, first let me say that I know from personal
experience that the job marketis a soul sucking place.
If I hear sometimes aboutpeople who, you know, have a job
lined up months beforegraduation, I have no idea what
that's like.
Well, okay, I guess I did, Iguess, once that happened.
(32:48):
But, generally speaking, Ithink we don't say enough about
just how demoralizing the jobmarket can be, and I have, at
the risk of discouraging youfurther, I have sent you some of
the headlines that I've seenabout this year 2025, being a
(33:09):
particularly difficult year fornew grads.
So I guess I would say, notjust to you, rebecca, but to
anyone out there who is jobhunting right now please know
it's not you.
Please know your contributionsare needed.
Whether or not there is thefunding available to compensate
(33:32):
you fairly for that is anotherissue and that's a whole other
rabbit hole we could go down.
But the reality is that the jobmarket sucks and we don't have
many narratives to talk aboutthis in our society without just
blaming ourselves and thinkingthat we ourselves are
incompetent, and I don't knowhow to fix this.
(33:53):
I wish I did, except that thisis kind of my cold comfort, dark
encouragement whatever you callit that I offer to folks when I
know they're heading into thejob market.
Is you know or like, say, maybethe academic job market, which
is particularly harrowing?
It's not you, the system sucks.
And it's not you and yourskills, your abilities, what you
(34:18):
have to offer, is desperatelyneeded.
The fact that that positionisn't, that you're not finding
that position, you're notfinding the right fit, all that
it's a reflection of the system.
It's not a reflection on you.
And, as I've said to you,rebecca, that I think someone in
your stage in life is going tohave a lot more success.
(34:39):
Your stage in life is going tohave a lot more success working
your personal networks andtalking to people you know.
The research shows that we'relikely to get a job from someone
who is, or through someone whois, an acquaintance, and so I
think that throwing your resumeinto the stack of all the other
(35:02):
resumes is not a great idea,even when you are early in your
career, but it's definitely notan efficient way to get a job
when you are someone with a lotof life experience, but maybe a
fairly new degree or fairly newqualifications, in that sense.
So I don't know if that'sremotely helpful to anyone.
(35:25):
But again, the bottom line isyou don't suck the job market
sucks.
And work your network like talkto people, talk to people.
Talk to people.
I mean, I know well, I thinkyou've experienced too, when you
were working with, when you've,when you're talking with
potential employers who know youpersonally, it's a different
(35:47):
conversation than those whodon't.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Sometimes it is, but not always.
Yeah, sometimes, but not alwaysFair.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
And fair, fair, and I'm not.
I'm not suggesting that any ofthese are the easy ways.
I'm just saying statistically,for most people, most of the
time, it works that way and thatif someone is, you know,
applying to tons of jobs throughany of the big job boards and
not getting positive engagement,that again that approach does.
(36:20):
The odds are not in your favorwith that approach, within
anyone's favor, and so workingpersonal networks are usually
much more productive.
But that doesn't mean it'sgoing to be easy.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
That's not what I'm saying right, because the thing
is Engaging with people, youknow, has its own hazard, and
the lack of engagement ordismissal then becomes personal
(36:53):
too.
Level there.
That I think doesn't get talkedabout either.
And I just think parents, ifyou're listening, send your
daughters to college, make surethey get a degree when they're
(37:14):
young, make sure they get lifeexperiences when they're young.
And again, I don't regretgetting my degree.
I am so glad I did that and atthe end of the day I did it for
me.
But I think if I had done it forany other reason but for myself
, it would be a really difficultposition to be in right now.
(37:35):
People don't know what to dowith a woman at 50 who has more
or less been a stay-at-home momwith a new degree.
It feels like people are unsurewhat to do with that.
And again, again, I probablyshould have done things a bit
differently.
I should have probably got ajob earlier and used it as a
(37:59):
stepping stone.
I probably should have donemore of that type of thing.
But again, you need to do whatyou need to do in order to
survive and what makes sense inthe moment.
(38:22):
College that was more of afull-time position, more of a
career-oriented position and Ihad a panic attack.
I had to get my kids to thedoctor.
They were giving me a hard timewith taking off for doctor's
appointments.
I mean, what is a mom supposedto do?
And the funny thing is theyliked me.
They liked the work I did, butthey wanted me to show up as if
I didn't have a family.
And I think about thatexperience often, because it's
(38:46):
even like if you try, if you tryto do that, you're supposed to
show up as if you're not gettingan education.
You're supposed to show up asif you don't have a family.
And there just isn't an easyway to win.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
Thank you for sharing that, because I think that's so
true.
And again, another example ofhow it's not you, it's the
system, and and I have eitherspoken to or read about so many
other women who are A in yoursituation or B in your situation
(39:25):
, with years of professionalexperience, who are in a very
similar place as far as findinga job that works for their life,
and it sucks.
I mean, the system's notworking for so many of us.
And I think, as we're sittinghere recording, we happen to be
in your living room instead ofrecording over Zoom, and I'm
(39:51):
surrounded by pictures of thecutest babies and toddlers and
kiddos ever that you wereraising, and all we can do is
what we can do in the momentwith the information and the
resources we have available atthe time, and you knocked it out
of the park.
I want you to know that.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Thank you and you know, at the end of the day, I
don't really regret thedecisions I did make.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
We just have to be kinder with the expectations we
put on other people, we put onourselves and I don't know.
We just have to be kinder withthe expectations we put on other
people we put on ourselves andI don't know how to navigate
that.
I don't know how to hold thosetensions.
I am working on it.
I think I'm learning better howto do that.
But yeah, the frustration isthere, it's real, and I am to
(40:41):
the point and I do have a jobposition I am taking and the
boss that I'm talking to isamazing going to a clinic that's
like five hours from herethroughout this summer for some
chronic illnesses that they'vebeen dealing with and I, because
(41:07):
of my other job experience, wasup front with him and I'm like
this is the reality of my summer.
If it's going to be a problem,then you probably need to just
go and find someone else or hiresomeone else, Because at the
end of the day and I think thisis the unfair reality at the end
(41:28):
of the day, a mother,especially, is expected to take
care of their kids, attenddoctor's appointments, kids
attend doctor's appointments,and not that Matt doesn't help
with that, but it often falls onme unless I specifically say
otherwise.
And I just don't know how momsjuggle that.
(41:52):
I mean, Naomi, you've done thisfor years, juggling the
doctor's appointments, jugglingthe school stuff, juggling all
of it, and I don't know.
Somehow we have to come up witha better system.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
I couldn't agree more .
So when you are, you'rethinking about A.
You've just run this marathon,you've got the awards, but now
here's life after the marathon,and you're in this transition
period of trying to figure outwhat that's going to look like.
We've talked about what so manyof those challenges are, and
(42:25):
challenges that many of us share.
So, in the context of all this,who or what is giving you
energy and hope during this timeand when you envision your life
, say, two years from now, whatis giving your life meaning?
What is giving you energy thatis pulling you toward that
(42:50):
moment?
Speaker 2 (42:51):
So I kind of laugh.
For many years, many, manyyears, I really bought into the
whole notion of junk in, junkout, which, translated to you,
only read Christian books orgood self-help books, or else
that was the only way to getgood out, and what a waste
(43:16):
anyway.
What a waste.
I look at my time that I spentin that space and I just think,
oh, my goodness, lighten up.
But anyway, right now I've beenreading fiction books a lot,
books that have absolutely novalue in my life, but they give
me a place to live, a place todisappear and live through them
(43:43):
and relax.
But the funny thing is, evenwithin fiction books there's a
lot of good stuff in it, and so,for whatever that's worth, I've
been reading fiction books alot, a couple of weeks actually.
Sometimes I've also beenwriting a lot.
Oddly enough and I think I'veheard other writers talk about
(44:05):
this too when you're slightlydepressed you almost write
better sometimes, which I thinkis fascinating.
But then close family andfriends have been absolutely
life-giving.
And the other thing that's kindof nice at this age is, you
know we can now tap intoemotional skills that you know
(44:28):
work, and at this point in lifeyou kind of know nothing is
forever.
Sucky stages come.
Sucky stages go Success come.
Sucky stages, go Success.
Whatever that is comes and itgoes, and even though perhaps
you're not always feelingsuccessful, it doesn't mean
(44:49):
you're an absolute loss either.
So just having the benefit ofage or call it maturity,
whatever that has been kind ofhelpful it's been very helpful
and just the continuing ofreparenting myself that
(45:12):
12-year-old is still afraidwe're not going to make it, that
12-year-old is still afraidthat we're getting lost in all
of life, but reminding them thatwe're going to be okay.
And not only are we going to beokay, we're going to figure out
, we're going to do more thanokay, we're going to thrive.
It has been helpful and justtapping into the belief that I
(45:36):
give to my kids and allowingmyself to experience that as
well.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
I love that and I think that emotional
intelligence that you're talkingabout there is such such a
powerful resource that many ofus have learned by midlife.
So I'd love to hear where wouldyou like this to take you in
two years?
Like two years kind ofarbitrary timeframe, but what do
(46:03):
you hope your life looks like?
Or what are the?
What are the big dreams?
Cause I know you, you don't doanything halfway.
What are some things you'rehoping for?
Because not that I reallybelieve in manifesting, but hey,
can't hurt, right.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
Yeah right, manifest that shit.
So I'm kind of in a situationright now where mama needs to
make some money and long term.
My final class that I had to doto graduate, actually, I had to
develop a business plan and Iremember being surprised at how
impressed my professor was withthe business plan, and it
(46:53):
includes a tiny house, communityand a place where people can
come, people can go, but a safeplace.
And I think in many ways thecommunity that I envision
building isn't just a safe placefor other people, it's a safe
(47:14):
place for me too, and maybe it'ssomething I want for myself,
but I want to be able to give toothers.
I want a quiet space to be, toput around in a garden if I want
to, but also space to write andto build connections, but with
a sense of purpose and a senseof freedom.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
I love that vision so much and for so many reasons.
A I think you'd be amazing atit and at developing something
like that and welcoming peopleinto it.
And also, the rising housingcosts are making life difficult
for so, so many of us, and Ithink that we need more ideas
(47:59):
like this one in the world tohelp us think about how housing
and community can be made moreaccessible for more people.
It's such an important need.
So, before we wrap up today, wewanted to make a quick
announcement about a quick butimportant announcement about the
Amish Descendant ScholarshipFund and a quick but important
announcement about the AmishDescendant Scholarship Fund.
(48:20):
We met one of the founders ofthis fund last summer at the
symposium at Elizabethtown andwe'll be putting a link in the
show notes to the website.
The message from the fund is foranyone who's left an Amish or a
(48:40):
Plain community with only aneighth grade education, who is
now either trying to find theirway to college or finding their
way through college.
The Amish DescendantsScholarship Fund can help anyone
who fits that description in acouple of ways.
One through mentorship matchingup with a mentor who grew up
Amish or Plain and has chosen topursue education and they can
(49:03):
offer some guidance,encouragement, support, moral
support.
You know whether someone iswondering if college is for them
or maybe they're already in itand to be involved with that
mentorship program, please visitAmishScholarshipcom to apply
not only for the mentorship butthen also for the scholarship.
(49:25):
I think the scholarshipdeadline is for this year is
toward the end of July, that's2025.
Now if you're not attendingcollege but maybe you want to
support folks who are, we inviteyou to consider donating to the
Amish Descendant ScholarshipFund through the link on their
site and so that also will belinked to the show notes.
(49:47):
Your contributions to this fundcould make a massive difference
in someone's life.
I know that the fund helpssupport Rebecca through part of
her education, and we all knowthe world needs more Rebecca's
and fewer barriers.
So, rebecca, you've graduated,you've crossed this massive
threshold that you built plankby plank, often while carrying
(50:11):
others across with you, and Ihope you know with your whole
self that this moment matters.
And to our listeners, if you'rein the middle of a long road,
if your dreams are taking thescenic route, or if you're
starting over later than youthought you would, you're not
behind, you're on your owntimeline and you are worth
(50:32):
showing up for yourself againand again.
Let this episode be proof thatit's never too late to choose
yourself to finish what youstarted or to start something
completely new.
Rebecca, thank you for sharingyour story with us.
You're not just a graduate,you're a mapmaker.
(50:52):
So until next time, friends,keep going, keep dreaming and
make your own path.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
Thank you for spending time with us today.
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 1 (51:14):
What are your thoughts about college and
recovery from high demandreligion?
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences and we
want to talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atuncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom.
That's uncoveredlifebeyond atgmailcom.
Speaker 2 (51:34):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
Until next time stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward.
Thank you.
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