July 6, 2025 • 72 mins
Rebecca and Naomi explore why curiosity requires courage, especially for those on the margins. We examine how gender, race, and religious upbringing shape who feels safe to ask questions and who faces consequences for challenging the status quo.
• Safety is a prerequisite for curiosity, but not everyone is equally encouraged to be inquisitive
• Women, particularly women of color, often face negative consequences for asking challenging questions
• Religious communities frequently use concepts like submission, forgiveness, and respect for authority to silence questioning
• Power structures in churches, schools, and families often treat curiosity as a threat rather than a virtue
• Critical thinking asks uncomfortable questions: who built these systems, who benefits, and what alternatives exist?
• Developing internal safety and self-trust helps us ask difficult questions even in unsafe environments
• The more dangerous a question feels to ask, the more important it probably is
We'd love to hear your story. When was the first time you remember feeling safe enough to ask hard questions but then realized it wasn't safe after all? Send us a voice memo, email, or text using the link above.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
This is.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Rebecca, and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path Along the
way, we've uncovered a fewinsights we want to share with
fellow travelers.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up, we are here to cheeryou on and assure you that the
best is yet to come.
Welcome to Uncovered LifeBeyond.
Hello everyone, Welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.
(01:08):
This is Naomi.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
And this is Rebecca.
So we're back again.
Look at us being consistent,you know.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
I'm going to enjoy it while it lasts.
I thought school's out Now.
You know we can really get onthis and just like every other
year it turns out having an openschedule can almost be worse
for getting things done thanhaving a regular tight,
(01:36):
overbooked schedule.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Well, and you know, I don't know if we've ever said
this on the podcast, but wepromised each other when we
started this that we would onlydo it as long as it's fun and
that we wouldn't get real rigidabout ensuring that it happens.
And I'm kind of glad we madethat promise to each other
(02:01):
because it really gives usfreedom and I think that helps
keep it fun for us freedom, andI think that helps keep it fun
for us.
It keeps help, it helps keep itfun for me at least.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Right, I have been thinking along those lines too,
because the Buzzcast is apodcast about podcasting
Buzzsprout, which is the ourhost, the host for our podcast,
and they were talking about, youknow, the things that make for
successful podcasts recently,and they were one of the things
(02:30):
that they talked about wasconsistency, and this is not an
original thought, of course,that you know.
It's the consistency showing upevery week and showing up every
week, right.
And I thought to myself, well,that's great, but also I'm glad
that we've given ourselvespermission to be persistent
instead of consistent, right.
And then the next week, on thenext episode, then they were
(02:53):
talking about a list that Appleput out of the top 20 podcasts
the last 20 years, or somethinglike that, and one of the things
they talked about was thenumber of high profile shows
that aren't consistent, and youknow.
And so it was kind of balancingout what they were just saying
the week before and I was, Ifelt so vindicated, but I agree,
(03:16):
like if we were doing this forour job, well, that's a
different, that would be adifferent situation, right and
you know, if someone wants to,and if someone wants to sponsor
us, you know great, then we'llbe consistent right, we'll
figure it out.
Yeah, out then.
But but I love, I think, andfor good reason, there's a lot
(03:38):
of pressure to monetize whateverour hobby is like.
That's kind of like right beingas the thing to do, like, oh,
it's the thing you love to do,and then you, if you get paid
for it, you don't, you know, itfeels like you're getting paid
for um, for having fun.
But we know that money changesthings and I love having this as
(03:59):
a hobby yeah a hobby that costsus money, because it costs us
money to host it to do things.
We are the ones who are editingand doing all that.
So that.
Well, you're the one that'sediting but my point is like I I
just don't even have to thinkabout like it can just be for
(04:20):
fun and I love that and I justwant to encourage anyone out
there and I have been well, you,rebecca, have had the
misfortune of hearing me on mysoapbox countless times.
But I think if someone has anopportunity to pursue something
they love, they do not need tofeel guilty for doing that.
Like that is a good thing andit's life giving and just
(04:45):
because something, just becausea capitalist society decides
something is worth money, butyou know, you know compensation
doesn't mean that that's theonly way to value it.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Right, yeah, I've been thinking a lot about
chronic illnesses and kind ofobserving people who struggle
with it, and I think it'snoteworthy that typically it's
females who have a chronicillness, and I think about the
ways females are typically theones who are worked and worked
(05:20):
and worked until they break.
And I don't have any answersfor it, but it's something I
think about a lot.
And how did we get to the pointthat?
That's kind of where the femalevalue is placed.
What is my worthiness if Ican't produce?
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Right, and I've also heard that a lot of those
psychologically related chronicillnesses have to do with
conflicting emotions.
Like you know, I love my kidsand also being a mother and
everything else is totallyoverwhelming.
But I can't say that I'mtotally overwhelmed because if I
do, then I'll be seen as a badmother.
(06:02):
I love this person who is alsodoing these bad things to me,
like those conflicting feelingsthat we can't express.
It's when we never get toexpress them and they're sitting
inside us.
That's what makes us sick, Imean, and it's way more
complicated than that.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
But I also think there's the side where they are
expressed, and then you're kindof shamed for it.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah, it's invalidated Absolutely.
There's good reason not to talkabout it, right, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
So I think there's many people who have spoken up
and have said I'm tired, I'moverwhelmed, this isn't working.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Said I'm tired, I'm overwhelmed, this isn't working,
but no one seems to care orlisten or take it seriously,
right?
Or I know, when I think aboutother moms, that I know here in
my area and they're good people,people I trust and have
confidence and all that, but Iknow they're stressed just as
thin as I am.
Like you know, they're as busyor busier than I am, so like I
hate to ask them, and I knowthat's a whole can of worms.
(07:10):
All that to say that oursociety does not make it easy
for us to get that support andour bodies are keeping the score
, and I think that's justbecoming more evident all the
time.
And I I think of Zahn.
She's a Facebook contentcreator.
What would we call her?
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Kind of yeah, influencer yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Influencer, yeah, and she talks a lot about women's
issues and and she talks abouthow our society treats women
like toasters.
In, you know, in the home, it'slike and you get your toaster.
The minute your toaster stopsworking, you get rid of it and
get another one.
There's no, it's like, if itdoesn't serve me, get rid of it.
And I think that so many of usare being treated like toasters
(07:56):
and being expected to bake breadand then not working.
And then it's like well, what'swrong with you?
Why are you sick?
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
So, I don't have a solution other than maybe we
should be supporting familiesinstead of subsidizing
billionaires, but that, I guess,is that would be unethical.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
I say that with a lot of sarcasm and statistically
the highest chance of divorcefor a female is if she becomes
ill.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Yeah, yeah.
Well and that just plays intothat toaster analogy.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Right, yeah, well, it affirms the toaster, analogy.
Yeah.
So on that bright, happy note,we did kind of start it off
cheerfully, didn't we?
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Well, this is kind of what mystifies me is when I
look at my life, like right now.
In a lot of ways the last twomonths, my life is as friction
free as maybe it's ever been,and yet I still, most days, just
feel this bone deep fatigue.
(09:07):
And I know I'm not alone inthat.
I know a lot of peopleexperience that and I guess I'm
going wait, I've got, I've hadopportunity to rest the last two
months, much of the last twomonths.
Why do I still feel so tired?
I don't, I don't know.
But and there I took it toanother bright spot, my point
being it's not like life ishorrible, except except there is
(09:29):
my car situation.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
And car situations are horrible.
They are horrible.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
I've been making repairs on this car.
I love the car.
What do I love about it?
I like driving it.
I love the look of it.
I mean it's kind of the sizecar that I've wanted for a long
time but also it is needingrepairs, one after the other,
and I get it back from the shopand finally get the alternator
(09:56):
working Second alternator, bythe way and then the air
conditioner stops and that'sgoing to be $1,000.
And when I looked at I wastalking with the manager of the
mechanic shop and told her hey,what do you think?
Do I need a different car?
She's like oh yeah, and she hadvery specific advice for me and
(10:17):
I'm going to call her back andI'm going to get some more
advice from her on how toproceed.
But I think I need, she said,get a Honda or Toyota.
So I'm going to have to call mybanker and see what we can do
and I might just have to breakdown and buy a car that's, you
know then, less than 10 or 12years old, which, to be honest,
like I think longingly at timesabout my 2007 Grand Caravan that
(10:41):
was so rusty, it looked awful.
2007 Grand Caravan that was sorusty, it looked awful it's.
It wheezed and made all kindsof weird sounds, but it wouldn't
die and it was paid off and itwas.
The insurance was cheap but itwouldn't die.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
So, and I couldn't wait to get rid of that car.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
But now you kind of miss it.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
But now I kind of miss it and I'm going oh, do I
just bite the bullet and go backto a minivan, go, find yourself
a nice Honda or Toyota.
Well, I'm going to give that ashot.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
I'm going to.
I think you should.
I think you should.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
I think so.
You had mentioned to me when Iwas talking with you about this
the other day that you know,those of us who've grown up with
the very Dave Ramsey influencedapproach to money have a really
hard time going into debt for acar or we feel a lot of guilt
about that kind of thing, and Iknow that's real for me and I
(11:33):
think it's not that that's badadvice.
It's just not realistic for allof us.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Right, particularly if you're a single mom or a
female.
I mean, you have to have a carthat gets you where you need to
go and doesn't leave youstranded.
It's one thing for Dave Ramsey,a white man with a wife, to
back him up, to pick him up ifhis vehicle breaks down, to say
(11:59):
that type of thing, but ifyou're a single mom and a female
, what are your options?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Right, and I'm not sure if he's the one, it's
someone like him.
If it's not, him that saysthings like you know, get an
older car and a good mechanic,yeah Well, that's easy to say,
but you know that doesn't.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
That's also easy to say if you're a man going into a
mechanic shop.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah, and also if you don't have to have, if you
don't have to be at work at acertain time every day, if you
don't need a car that's reliable, if you're not driving out of
town, driving long distances.
I'm not saying that buying amore expensive car is a good
investment in terms of dollarsand cents, but I'm saying buying
(12:47):
an old car that needs lots ofrepairs is not necessarily safe
or realistic for everyone, andwe don't.
It's not a personal failing onour part if we have to borrow
money for a car or make carpayments.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
So thank you for that .
Okay, that is.
That is my sunshiny life rightnow.
Tell me about your life.
What's going on with you?
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Hey, we are working, we're doing doctor's
appointments, trying to coax mygarden into producing green
beans, putting up with a lot ofrain and then a lot of heat.
That that pretty much the yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
That sounds delightful.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Yeah, my one kid needs to go to Michigan about
once a month now, which is abouta three and a half hour drive
to a clinic, and of course ourinsurance doesn't accept them or
they don't accept our insurance.
I'm now unclear which way thatgoes, but anyway, it's kind of a
last ditch effort to find somehelp, so I've been working more
(13:50):
hours to help cover that too.
So yeah, that's pretty much mysummer.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
I've heard different people talk about how you know
the idea that you just have 18summers with your kids and then
that's it, that you know.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Kind of critiquing that and man you know, why don't
we just shame, why don't wejust shame people like for
Pete's sake.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Well, and I guess I'm just thinking like your family
and many, many other familiesare a good example of how that
is not how it works for for alot of us and that, and that
your kids need you and that thecaregiving continues even after
somebody turns 18.
And caregiving is.
(14:30):
Our society treats caregivingas though it's like this kind of
unique thing, but the realityis every last one of us needs
caregiving at some point in ourlives.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Like this is not going away.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
But we treat it as though it, as though it's some
kind of special kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Right, well, and you know they want to talk about.
The 18 summers is all you have,or whatever, but yet, oh my
goodness, are you.
Do you have a college fund?
And what do you do if your kidhas a chronic illness?
Or what do you do if you know,whatever life happens?
So don't, don't guilt me aboutmy 18 summers.
And how about talking just moreabout building relationships?
(15:11):
So, even so, your kids want tovacation with you when they're
2021.
I mean, like that's what theywant to do.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
That they want to spend time with you, right,
right, so let's drop the guiltabout.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
All you have is 18 summers, like, let's just drop
it and just support each otherfor wherever we find ourselves.
It's kind of what life is, Iagree, but anyway, enough about
our little lives.
What is our conversation fortoday?
Can you believe we're going totalk about something other than
(15:45):
ourselves?
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Well, we're going to have to put a chapter marker in
here, so folks who want to skipover the chitchat can do that.
There you go, there you go youknow there's some podcasts I
love the chitchat and others notso much and so giving folks an
option, that might be what weneed to do.
So our conversation today is aresponse to a letter we got from
(16:09):
a listener who reached out tous after our April episode with
Patricia Lewis, where we weretalking about what it means to
live a life of continuouslearning.
Rebecca, do you want to read itfor our listeners?
And this is we're sharing thiswith our listeners' permission
and taking out some of theidentifying details.
(16:29):
The message of the letterresonated with us and I think it
will resonate with the rest ofour listeners too.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
And thank you so much for sending in this letter and
email or I guess it's an emailand for those of you who do
share your thoughts with us,please know we so appreciate it
and I think it's really cool howit kind of continues the
conversation and oftentimesthere's so much you could say
about something and I like theway it keeps developing.
(16:57):
But she wrote, one of the briefthemes was the encouragement to
learn more and seek outinformation.
Basically, I think you'retalking about curiosity.
I hear that a lot.
Be curious, nurture yourcuriosity, and I think it was
Oprah that said you can't becurious if you do not feel safe.
How true.
(17:18):
I think about boys in school andI don't know if this is still
current that could ask questions, push boundaries and be okay to
some degree.
Girls, on the other hand, canbe shamed for asking certain
questions or trying to push thelimits.
And the writer continues sayingshe knows two sisters who are
biracial, adopted several yearsago.
(17:39):
They are teens now in an almostentirely white school.
A black girl that is curious, ablack girl that challenges
authority, a black teenager thatasks the wrong questions.
Wow, the stories I can tell you.
Let's just say I am a firmbeliever that a person must feel
safe somehow, internally,externally, whatever to venture
(18:03):
out and be willing to learn.
We can tease that apart for awhile.
Why do some Amish kids feelsafe enough to challenge and ask
and others don't how much isthe makeup of the individual and
how much is the environment?
And boy, doesn't that lastsentence or that last paragraph
really emphasize what we talkedabout from the Elizabethtown
(18:26):
symposium as well what we talkedabout from the Elizabethtown
symposium as well.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
That's right.
The line that really stuck withme was you cannot be curious if
you don't feel safe.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
And I wonder if it's almost more of a thing of you.
Can't be curious if you careabout safety?
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yes, yes, and this is why today's episode is called
the Courage to Ask why, because,as simple and beautiful as
curiosity sounds, it's notequally encouraged for everyone,
and I think it's important totalk about the fact that it is
that way, and why and how gender, race, religious upbringing all
(19:11):
these different factors canshape whether we feel free to
ask hard questions or whetherwe're shamed or punished or
discouraged from even trying.
And that leads us to a largerquestion of what it takes to
stay curious in unsafe placesand how power structures I mean
everything from church to schoolto family discourage
questioning in ways that areoften invisible or just kind of
(19:35):
beneath the surface until wename it.
Sometimes it is explicit andother times it's implicit, and
sometimes, when it's implicit,it's almost harder to identify
and push back against.
And I think that leads us to aconcluding question of what
would it look like to buildcommunities that don't just
tolerate curiosity but actuallynurture it?
(19:55):
So let's get into it when youhear the quote you cannot be
curious if you do not feel safe.
What comes up for you?
What does safety mean there foryou?
Speaker 1 (20:05):
I think so often, when people dare to ask
questions that make other peoplefeel uncomfortable, that is
when the shame, punishments, theguilt sets in, and I think it's
interesting how often we areconditioned to ensure that those
(20:27):
in authority, particularly themales around us, are comfortable
.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Can we drill down on that word comfortable or
uncomfortable, Because that'sone of those words that we use a
lot to mean a lot of differentsituations.
What is the discomfort we'retalking about in the situation
you just described?
The kinds of situations?
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Well, don't societies have status quos in order to
nurture this sense of we knowwhat to expect.
We feel comfortable in thissense of social norms, yeah, and
then if someone comes in and atall disrupts that, it's usually
(21:11):
not taken kindly.
But I think also, females arealso, are expected to nurture
physical comfort in others.
Are you hungry?
Oh, let me cook you a meal.
Do you have dirty laundry?
All right, let me go do yourlaundry.
Oh, the bathroom's messy.
(21:32):
Yes, I'll go clean it.
We are literally taught to dothat for the men in our lives as
well.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Make things comfortable for them.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Right, I think there's a lot of varying ways in
which we're taught to do this,ways in which we're taught to do
this, but I feel like questionsand challenging the status quo
creates a disturbance thatpeople who aren't emotionally
healthy often don't know what todo with.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Right, and I would also add to that people who are
kind of hanging on to theirposition of power control their
position, of their elevatedposition in the hierarchy.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Oh, those who are benefiting from it.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Those who are benefiting from it.
Right, yeah, yeah.
Anything that upsets the socialnorm that benefits them are
going to feel uncomfortableRight Right, absolutely,
absolutely.
That benefits them, are going tofeel uncomfortable Right, right
, absolutely Absolutely.
So I think kind of anysituation where you have that
real clear distinction of ahierarchical power setup that
that's.
This dynamic is at play.
You know, being able-bodied orany other number of categories
(22:43):
right, where one category isgiven more status than another
and so the higher you are inthat status then the more leeway
there is for you to question orpush back against the norms.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
I mean we get the line boys will be boys where
little girls are supposed to beangels and sugar and spice and
everything nice right and thenand then you have girls, and
maybe particularly black girls,who get policed for attitude or
disrespect, and we're taughtearly on, we're socialized how
(23:21):
to anticipate what other peoplemight need from us or how they
perceive us.
People might need from us orhow they perceive us.
And I can't imagine like Iexperienced that as a white
female and I can't imagine howthat scrutiny is compounded for
a black girl who dares to becurious in a white space.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Right right and having a sister of color, having
friends of color.
I know this is very real andit's heartbreaking to me how
often even the people, thewell-meaning people, the ones
who would you would hope wouldbe supportive of them, are not
of them are not and instead theycarry out that policing for
(24:11):
attitude or disrespect.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
You know I saw a reel the other day.
That was kind of interestingand you know it was probably
scripted, but I thought themessage was good.
Mom was in line at Starbucksordering her coffee.
Kid is in the backseat and says, mom, can I have a cookie?
And mom turns around and saysno, we have cookies at home.
And the kid is quiet for liketwo seconds and says, well, we
(24:35):
have coffee at home.
And mom just kind of gets thislook on her face like well, crap
, and turns to the Starbucksorder booth and says add a
cookie to the order, please.
But I think somehow we need tolearn to allow others to
(24:55):
influence us, and maybeparticularly those who have less
power than we do Like.
How do we learn to be open tothe questions that those who
have less power, either with ageor social structures or
(25:16):
hierarchy or even in religioussettings, how do we allow those
people to ask those types ofquestions?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Right, and I think that also gets at this question
of you know, the role of theenvironment and the individual.
And our letter writer wasasking you know, what is it that
makes someone?
What is it that prompts someoneto be more curious?
So, personality can certainlyenter into it.
Some are just more naturallycurious than others.
(25:44):
But then there's also theinfluence of an environment.
I mean, I think of things likesome of these extreme parenting
methods like blanket training.
That is beating literallybeating curiosity out of kids.
That is literally beatingcuriosity out of kids before
they can even talk.
It's child abuse.
But even if it's not blankettraining, there are other ways
(26:07):
that those messages are sent aswell.
Maybe they're even, maybe onthe face of it, maybe a little
less brutal, but but are stilleffective at shutting down that
curiosity and communicating tochildren, even young children,
that it's not something that'sencouraged.
And yet then still some kidsbreak free and others stay
(26:29):
compliant, and you can't predictwhich kind of upbringing is
going to result in a kid stayingcompliant or breaking free when
they get older.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
You know something people always said.
I mean my mom would say it.
I remember Grandma Peachysaying it.
I mean it was said in any typeof child training environment.
I think Dobson said this youhave to break their will, not
their spirit.
I mean, can we just callbullshit on that?
Can we just call bullshit?
Speaker 2 (27:01):
You know what I hear in that statement.
What I hear is break thechild's will so that they are
compliant and do what I wantthem to do, but without the
negative consequences ofbreaking a child's will.
Like you can't have your cakeand eat it too, folks.
And that's what I hear in thatstatement.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
And to dig even a little bit deeper on that, it's
a justification to be cruel.
Yes, it is, yes, it's ajustification to literally get
kids to respond on demand.
Like a toaster or a robot Like,yeah, like a robot.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Something I've noticed about what some of those
characteristics or thosefactors can be that go along
with someone breaking free,asking the forbidden questions
right versus staying compliant,is that it's often when there is
a breakdown in both theindividual's relationship with
family and church, like I seepeople who have maybe a really
(28:08):
difficult family situation butif they're, if they have still
have confidence in their churchfamily and the church community,
they'll stick around, or viceversa.
And I think that's often whenthose internal contradictions
become so obvious that theindividual can no longer accept
you know pat answers or thoughtstopping cliches that that's
(28:30):
often when they the point atwhich they break free.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Well, right, because it goes back to the original
thought or the originalstatement.
It's not safe anyway, so whynot challenge it?
Like, if my environment is notsafe, if my church isn't safe,
if my home life isn't safe, likewhat's happening is not working
.
So it like why not askquestions, why not disrupt the
(28:56):
system?
Because this isn't working,this isn't safe anyway.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Right, right.
And I think of one of the FLDSmemoirs about someone who left
the polygamous sack trying sohard to be faithful.
So trying so hard to befaithful, and when she was
finally told, look, you're goingto hell, because she wasn't
compliant enough, even thoughshe was trying so hard or
whatever it was, you know thatshe wasn't meeting expectations.
(29:22):
She was like, hey, I'm going tohell anyway, I might as well
have fun with what I have leftof life.
Yeah, and so it's like if Idon't have access to safety, no
matter how hard I try, thenwhat's the point?
Speaker 1 (29:35):
And I don't think religious communities understand
what happens to an individualwhen they no longer care about
the threat of hell.
Yeah, when they no longer careabout the threat of hell yeah,
when a person no longer caresabout the threat of hell, it
(29:56):
completely changes the way theyview life and how they show up
in life Absolutely.
And it's not always asdestructive as the religious
community would like you tobelieve too.
It doesn't mean that they justsay, oh well, I'm just going to
go out and kill and rape and dowhatever I want to do.
That narrative is so bullshitstupid it doesn't even make
sense.
But when you lose and get ridof this fear of hell, it allows
(30:22):
you to show up in a differentway.
You show up the way you want toshow up, because that's the
type of person I want to be.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Right, and the way that that fear of hell, or the
threat of hell, is lost isusually through seeing or coming
to terms with the emperorhaving no clothes.
It's through coming face toface with those beliefs or the
(30:49):
rules, the authority figures,and losing confidence that they
are what they claim to be, nolonger being able to deny that
water is wet.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
You know, I've often wondered, and I am like, I'm
truly wondering, if a lot ofthese religious leaders believe
in hell themselves, the amountof quote, sin and abuse that
they strategically hide andcover up for.
(31:19):
They cannot believe thatthere's a day of judgment.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Oh, but you just have to say the magic words.
They can't believe that?
Yeah, oh, but you have to saythe magic words.
They can't believe that, yeahWell.
And if they do believe in it,yeah.
I can't imagine the kind ofcognitive dissonance, the kind
of mental calisthenics they haveto go through to make it all
make sense and to be okay withhuman beings suffering for
(31:45):
eternity.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Well, there's a phrase, and I don't know where I
saw it, but if man is createdin the image of God, man is God.
Yeah, and I think oftentimesthese leaders believe they are
God.
Yeah yeah, and God got by withdoing some crazy stuff in the
(32:09):
Old Testament Crazy stuff.
And if God got by with doingsome of that crazy stuff, then
why shouldn't they?
Speaker 2 (32:18):
And by crazy you mean cruel right.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Yeah, and for me, that was a huge point in my
deconstruction was when I wentwait, yeah, here are all these
charlatans, here are all thesesnake oil salesmen claiming to
speak for God.
What if they are?
You know, what if God is asslimy as they are?
(32:43):
And what you're talking aboutwhen you read through,
especially in the Old Testament,the genocide that was commanded
, and to say, yep, this isjustice?
Well, that would explain a lot,something that's been helpful
for me to understand whycritical thinking is so
offensive to some people and whyit.
(33:04):
I mean and it's not just areligious thing, it's also in
secular environments too.
I mean being woke, havingempathy, all these things right
are considered.
These are considered bad thingsnow by the powers that be, and
one way that it's been helpfulfor me to think of this
conceptually is how that,through most of Western European
(33:29):
history, people have imaginedsociety as a giant pyramid that
was built exactly the way itshould be.
So you've got kings, nobles atthe top and then working your
way all the way down to thepeasants at the very bottom, and
this wasn't just a verypractical way to get the farm
work done, but this was God'swill, and knowing your place in
(33:52):
life was how you showed yourdevotion to God, where you
showed your morality, andeveryone was taught that they
had a natural place andquestioning it was like
questioning the divine order ofthe universe.
And then, of course, this alsogot carried over into gender
race, you know, and all thosecategories as well.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
But then and this was deep not just in society, but
also philosophy came along andmade this valid.
They tried to make this veryvalid.
Like it's deep in philosophy,it's deep in religion.
Everyone who could benefit fromit latched onto it.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Absolutely, absolutely.
The doctrine of discovery.
Yeah, so colonialism, just yes,the tentacles reached.
So far.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
So it's very deep in how much of our society is set
up.
It wasn't just a, a blip, yeah,or a passing notion.
Yeah, exactly Everyone in powerdug into it.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Right, and this was a context in which well, that
t-shirt you were wearing theother week, I loved.
It was like they didn't burnwitches, they burned women.
But when you hear about some ofthe ways that they determined
that a woman was a witch, youknow, and it was like if she
will throw her in the lake, andif she drowns she was innocent,
(35:23):
and if she swims she's guilty,she's a witch, and then gets
killed anyway.
That was considered justice.
But then you have thescientific revolution come along
, and people start asking whythe world worked the way that it
did, instead of just assumingwell, this is how things have
been set up and this is whatwe're going to go with, and not
(35:46):
just physically.
Obviously, there was that right, which is why they were
studying.
Scientists were studying thenatural world and observing
things, and they were figuringout like oh wait, maybe germs
are the cause of illness ratherthan evil spirits, maybe
somebody who has a health issueisn't cursed by a witch, but
(36:09):
maybe there's a physicalexplanation for it, and also
socially.
So instead of knocking thepyramid down, though, which is
what could have happened, manyof these thinkers just look for
new ways to explain and defendit, including philosophy, like
you pointed out, and they turnto science, biology, natural law
(36:30):
.
You know, women are justnaturally this way, men are just
naturally this way, and that'swhy we have to make tons and
tons and tons of artificial lawsso that these natural laws
aren't broken to justify thesame old hierarchies.
And it was like repainting thepyramid and calling it progress,
critical theories.
And when I'm talking aboutcritical theories here, I'm
(36:51):
thinking of, like you know, thekinds of things that well, that
I was introduced to in collegeand I think that's where a lot
of people are introduced to them.
But there's, you know, youdon't have to go to college, you
can, you can get introducedthese other places as well.
Um, but especially like fromthe tradition of karl marx, that
they essentially flipped thatscript and they said whoa, whoa,
whoa, whoa, whoa.
What if that pyramid isn'tnatural or right?
(37:13):
What if it's just a systembuilt by the powerful to keep
their power and to exploit theless powerful?
What if this isn't natural?
And so that then started thisother vein of thought,
diametrically opposed to thisstandard pyramid structure of
(37:35):
power, or, as it's familiarlyknown today, being woke.
It just means becoming aware ofhow our society trains us,
socializes us to see thatpyramid is norm and those.
You know that the people inpower are there because they are
(37:59):
more hardworking or becausethey are more moral, or because
they're smarter andunderstanding.
We're trained to see it thatway, even if it's unfair, even
if it's unfair, even if that'snot necessarily true.
And so bringing critical thoughtto this, then means asking who
built the structure, whobenefits and what might it look
(38:21):
like to build somethingdifferent?
So, for example, slavery.
Slavery was not natural.
There were tons and tons oflaws and tons and tons of
violence and effort that wentinto building that structure,
and during the time of abolition, the pro-slavery argument was
that, oh, our society wouldcollapse without slavery.
(38:44):
This is how, this is.
The only way we can, you know,we can survive as a civilized
society is to have slavery.
Well, guess what it turns out?
All they needed was women.
That too.
Also, having a five day workweek was supposed to end society
and civilization as we know it.
Uh, having a or an eight-hourwork, eight-hour work day sorry,
(39:05):
eight-hour work day, five-daywork week, having minimum wage,
was going to end society as weknow it.
It is really, reallyinteresting when you start
looking at political issuesthrough this lens of who is
setting this up, who isbenefiting from it and what are
some other options.
And I think the most importantthing to remember is that
(39:30):
whenever we're put in asituation where we're only given
two options, almost inevitablywe are being shuttled into,
we're being controlled, we'rebeing controlled by the powers
that be.
They're telling us that thereare only two options so that we
will choose the option they wantus to choose, and they
(39:51):
discourage questioning becausequestioning threatens to bring
down the whole house of cards.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
And I think I remember conversations as a kid
saying but wait, this isn't fair.
It's not fair that the boys getto do this and women don't, or
it's not fair that men get to bepreachers and women can't, or
it's not fair, you know,whatever.
And I remember being told it'snot about fair or unfair, it's
(40:20):
God's rules, it's the way Godordained it.
And so when you're taught thatjustice or fairness isn't even
considered, it opens up thiswhole new power structure.
Because what can you?
Speaker 2 (40:38):
argue with you can't, and that's the thing.
As someone who studies rhetoric, rhetoric, argumentation, good
reasons only works in asituation where there is a
possibility of persuasion.
In the case of a rigid powerstructure, there's no persuasion
because there's no arguing withviolence.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
And it doesn't matter if the person in authority has
coffee at home, they still gettheir coffee from Starbucks.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
They don't have to get their cookie.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
It doesn't have to be consistent, it does not have to
be fair and there's no way toinfluence that logic.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
And there's no way to influence that logic, Right?
Because in that situation thatyou described, that question
influenced the mother, but themother allowed herself to be
influenced.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Yes, exactly and in a tyrannical situation or in a
lot of institutional situationsthat's considered
insubordination.
But even to bring it closerhome back to and we talked about
this earlier women are sayingit's not fair that I'm doing all
(41:50):
the emotional work, it's notfair that I'm doing all this
labor at home and being unpaid,or it's not fair that I have to
be a stay-at-home mom and then,when I'm 40, try to get a job
that pays enough money.
Even when women are saying thisisn't fair, this is not working
(42:12):
, it doesn't matter because thisis the way it is, this is the
way God set things up.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Yeah, what's the saying?
God said it.
That settles it.
No, god said it.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
I believe it.
God said it, I believe it.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
Yeah, I believe it, that settles it.
Settles it yeah, but yeah shutsdown all dialogue.
And I think about all the waysthis has been reinforced in so
many conservative,fundamentalist religious
contexts.
There's Gothard's umbrella ofauthority.
That has certainly made therounds, and this idea.
(42:48):
You know that God's up at thetop, man, woman, children at the
bottom right.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
That umbrella needs to disappear.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
I think of teachings like touch not the Lord's,
anointed as a message that evenwhen a authority and authority
figure is doing something wrong,you shouldn't speak against it,
you should just go with it,because, or just pray.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Just pray because God , like that's what you're told
over and over, just pray aboutit.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
I mean, gothard taught that you just pray about
it, that's the only which iscode for shut up and don't do
anything about it.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Well, but you know, if it's actually wrong, if it's
actually wrong and you'resubmissive and pray about it,
then that opens up the door forGod to work.
When you're doing the rightthing and when your heart is the
way it should be, then, andonly then, can God work in
authority.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
Right and, interestingly enough, god
usually just lets them do theirthing.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
Interestingly enough, that is is the worst form of
gaslighting.
That is the worst form ofinsanity.
Like that creates insanity,yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Thinking of curiosity as just not even questioning
the status quo but just havinghaving questions how that has
been discouraged.
I think about sermons I'veheard, where questions were
compared to the fall in theGarden of Eden, where Adam and
Eve started with the questionyea hath God said, did God
(44:30):
really say this?
And the idea was that if youtake something that is like an
established norm in yourcommunity and say, wait, does
the Bible really say this?
That that was an act ofrebellion.
To go back and check the statusquo against the word of God was
rebellion.
That's what broke my brain, asin my late teens when I realized
(44:53):
like wait a minute, wait aminute, aren't we supposed to be
Anabaptists and Biblicists?
When the substance of thatmessage sunk in with me, that's
when I lost confidence.
And I think also another way yousee that pyramid reinforced is
in the Anabaptist emphasis onforgiveness in asymmetrical
power relationships.
And you know, and I think thereis so much value in Anabaptist
(45:20):
teachings on pacifism and I canunderstand why that was a good
strategic move politically inthe movement at the time where
it is cruel and inhumane,because when this is brought
into personal relationships andin the same way you just said
you know, go pray about it andlet God work.
(45:40):
It's like someone in powerharms someone with less power,
and it's not just the personwith less power saying I'm going
to forgive them, it's thecommunity coming around and
bulldozing them into saying youmust forgive them.
And it's a way of just brushingit all under the rug and making
the problem go away, and thenthe community doesn't have to
(46:01):
deal with the embarrassingreality of a leader who's not
living up to their professedmorals.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
Or order to maintain this notion of pacifism.
We throw the marginalized andthe abused under the bus in the
name of pacifism, and that isnot the intent.
And I want to be really clearhere.
I know the Amish get criticizeda lot for the abuse that they
have going on in their circles,and that is true.
(46:31):
But you know what?
The rest of the Anabaptistworld isn't much better, whether
we have William McGrath,whether we have Cam Ministries,
whether we have John Henry Yoder, like the woke Mennonites don't
know what to do with John HenryYoder.
Am I using?
Am I saying his name right?
It's John Henry, right.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
No, John Howard John.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
Howard Yoder yeah, I was like Henry's, not right.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
John.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
Howard Yoder.
Yeah, the woke Anabaptistsdon't know what to do with him.
I'm not okay with blaming theAmish for having or for hiding
abuse without addressing thebeachies, the beachy Mennonites,
the whatever brand, the MCUSAgroups they all hide abuse, and
(47:18):
I think we need to get reallyhonest about that.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
It's not dependent on just being very conservative,
correct.
That's not right Absolutely.
And to go beyond our background, I mean we've just in the last
20 years have seen so manyscandals, so much sexual assault
, not just the sexual assaultsthat has been happening in
(47:42):
religious institutions beingexposed, but the cover ups.
And that's the real scandal isthe cover ups and the extent to
which the Catholic Church, theSouthern Baptist Convention and
we just go down the line likefind me an organization.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Find me a religious organization.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
That is not affected by this right.
Bodies Behind the Bus recentlydid an episode on, kind of an
update on the Southern BaptistConvention's failure to protect
victims.
Highly recommend that episodefor a sense of what is going on.
Essentially, instead ofaddressing the problems that
(48:24):
have been brought before them,they are essentially doubling
down on their decision toprotect predators.
They are ostracizing victims.
It's not just ignoring victimsif only we're ignoring.
No, it is outrightostracization and cruelty.
And it's now to the point wherethe folks who have been active
(48:49):
as advocates in trying to bringchange to the Southern Baptist
Convention are essentiallygiving it up as a lost cause,
and I don't blame them.
I think the Southern BaptistConvention are essentially
giving it up as a lost cause andI don't blame them.
I think the Southern BaptistConvention is telling us who
they are.
They have not been able to cometo terms with their history of
(49:09):
racism and down the line, andwhat they are making clear is
that these churches are aboutconsolidating power and money
and they don't care who getshurt in the process.
And they're telling us who theyare, so let's believe them.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
You know, I think it's so funny and this is
probably one of the most hiddenBible verses.
But Jude 22 says be merciful tothose who doubt.
Another translation says andyou must show mercy to those
whose faith is wavering.
I think for me, the place whereI saw this the most was Rachel
(49:48):
Held Evans, and every time Ispeak about Rachel Held Evans I
have so many conflictingemotions.
She did some things very, verywell.
Towards the end there were somethings that I was really
bothered by, but what she did doso well was open her platform
to those who see faithdifferently, to those who are
(50:10):
questioning faith, and when Ithink about faith actually
working, I think this summarizesit so well she this is what
God's kingdom is like A bunch ofoutcasts and oddballs gathered
at a table, not because they arerich or worthy or good, but
because they are hungry, becausethey said yes, and there's
(50:33):
always room for one more.
And I think it's funny because Imean, when you think about the
disciples, they were not apowerful, well-to-do batch of
people.
I mean, they were misfits.
They had all the questions.
We mock them for theirquestions, but yet we think we
(50:54):
have to be.
Speaker 2 (50:56):
I don't know how you get to mocking the disciples for
their questions, when that wasliterally what Jesus used to
start his ministry of how I meanall the Bible verses and
(51:22):
chapters that I've memorized andstudied and read and reread,
and all that over the years.
Yeah, I mean, I don't have itall memorized by a long shot,
but you know I.
But I recognize passages when Isee them.
Be merciful to those who doubtand you must show, or or the
other reading was you must showmercy to those whose faith is
wavering, like wow, wow that is,and yet we literally have this
(51:42):
song.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
Don't Be a Doubting Thomas.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
Yeah, yeah I mean, you know, and sometimes I look
at the most high profilereligious folks these days and
it's like if Jesus said it, theyrun screaming from it.
That's really what it lookslike, yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
When you think about the refugee situation, horrible
horrible.
Like I don't understand howanyone who calls themselves
Christian is okay with it.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
Yeah, I don't get it Right, and yet they will go
screaming over issues that theBible says nothing about Right.
I want to acknowledge somesecular ways that these
hierarchies can show up right,this pyramid of well.
This is just the way it'ssupposed to be.
I think schools are a placewhere you can see this kind of
(52:30):
dynamic, especially wheneducation is seen as well.
The teacher is here giving theinformation Paolo Freire, and
he's a south american writer whotalked about liberatory
education and he talks about thebanking model of education,
where, you know, the teachergives the students information,
(52:53):
the students are supposed tomemorize it and then be able to
spit it back out, so like a bankaccount account or like CLE or
BCE or ACN.
Speaker 1 (53:02):
Yeah, that's what.
Speaker 2 (53:02):
That's all about that's called rote learning.
Yes, exactly, it has beendebunked numerous times.
And what is a much better way tolearn is to approach learning
as exploration and encouragequestioning, encourage curiosity
in students.
(53:23):
I mean, that's just like no,yeah, there's just no question
about it.
And even though in educationaltheory that's now well
established, we still can seeremnants of that, because
historically, that teacher whohad all the answers was white
and male and instead of learningbeing prioritized, it was
respect for authority that wasbeing prioritized, and I think
(53:46):
we see that remnants of thatstill today.
And then, of course, we talkedabout racialized gender
hierarchies.
You know who gets the benefitof the doubt.
I think about how often in well,this is something we talked
about a couple months ago in ourepisode about when he's
progressive and public andpatriarchal at home how so many
(54:10):
people still kind of maintainthese gender hierarchies, even
though and also racial, eventhough we claim we're not racist
, we claim we're not sexist.
And yet if you have, say, aBlack person who dares to
question the status quo, if youhave a woman who doesn't comply
with the accepted norms offemininity, how quickly they get
(54:35):
in trouble.
And it's like this assumption,like, even though we're not
going to officially enforcethose hierarchies, we don't, we
claim we don't believe in them.
As soon as someone doesn't actin accordance with them, then we
call.
We have all kinds of names forthem and that hierarchy is in us
(54:57):
and we can't really get to thebottom of it until we recognize
how we've been socialized intoit, even if we intellectually
don't agree with it.
We have to recognize how thosetendencies lie within us and, in
the words of Terry wheel, weneed those who are in power to
sit down and the weak to standup.
Speaker 1 (55:16):
And I think something that we often forget to
understand and even discuss isthis difference between having
respect for authority and andrubbing the ego of authority,
and I think there's a hugedifference.
Speaker 2 (55:34):
Well, respect can mean so many different things,
right.
Speaker 1 (55:37):
And we need to make a difference.
Because pacifying someone's ego, I don't know, I'm too old for
that yeah, and I think there's adifference.
I think everyone deserves thetime of day.
That's just basic respect.
To me.
Everyone deserves to be heard,acknowledged, like people who
(55:59):
refuse to acknowledge someonethey know in public always kind
of break my brain.
To me that feels like literallysaying you don't deserve the
time of day, and to me that'sbasic respect.
You don't deserve the time ofday and to me that's basic
respect.
You don't deserve to beacknowledged.
Speaker 2 (56:15):
Your humanness doesn't deserve to be
acknowledged, and I think,though, sometimes respect can be
used as deference, and we'reoften expected to treat
authority figures with deference, but authority figures aren't
expected to treat underlings, toacknowledge their basic
(56:36):
humanity of underling Right,like the other day I was at work
and this pastor and his wifecame in and I was talking to
another customer at the otherend of the bar.
Speaker 1 (56:50):
So I tapped a coworker and motioned to the
pastor and his wife that justcame in and obviously she didn't
know who they were, butmeanwhile and I pointed her in
their direction and then, beforeI went back to talking to my
customer, I acknowledged her andsaid hi, and you know, whatever
, and I got nothing and Iremember being like that.
(57:13):
To me that is a prime exampleof someone in authority who
wants to be respected withoutgiving respect.
Speaker 2 (57:24):
Right.
I think that's one of thoseways that hierarchies get
maintained.
And then there's also thisthing of masking hierarchies,
like pretending they aren'tthere, and this is this, I think
, can take the form of phraseslike servant leadership, or, you
know, we accept everyone, oryou know, questions are welcome.
(57:45):
But then there's another partto it that that's left unsaid,
and when you scratch a littlebit beneath the surface, you
find, oh yeah, no, they're justignoring the hierarchy that
absolutely is there.
Speaker 1 (58:01):
And the hierarchy that's serving them Right.
The whole concept of servantleadership kind of breaks my
brain.
I think John C Maxwell is oneof the most conniving and
manipulative people ever, andI've read all his books.
What I perceive him as doing iscollecting himself a group of
(58:24):
mostly white men who want power,and he teaches them to get that
power While pretending theyaren't.
And he teaches them to get thatpower While pretending they
aren't, while pretending theyaren't.
And it's appalling to me whenthese local leadership groups
are created and it's alwaysattempting to attract people
(58:47):
with the most money.
Somehow we have decided thatall it takes to be a leader is
money.
It doesn't matter if you wereborn into it, it doesn't matter
if you were honest in yourdealings, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2 (59:01):
But they always use enough of a humble language, to
make it sound good, to make itdifficult to argue against.
Speaker 1 (59:10):
Yeah, yeah.
And then I hear stories of themarguing amongst each other,
even, and even in that there's avying for quote leadership and
arguing about who gets paid tospeak and how much they get paid
to speak.
And that's what we're callingleadership.
Speaker 2 (59:30):
And my guess Servant leadership right yes.
Speaker 1 (59:33):
Yes, and my guess is, for all the quote leaders that
show up at these seminars orsymposiums, or whatever they
want to call them, they have anadmin back at their place of
employment who's doing all thereal leadership work for them,
and it's probably Actual, day-toleadership work for them and
it's probably actual day-to-daywork.
Speaker 2 (59:54):
Yeah, and keeping track of everything, yeah.
Speaker 1 (59:56):
And oftentimes you will see a man who's out there
being the leader in thecommunity and his wife is at
home in the office making it allhappen, right.
So don't come at me with thisservant leadership thing.
It is not honest, it's nottransparent, it's a grab for ego
, it's a grab for status, it's agrab for power and even within
(01:00:20):
that, you hear theseconversations about having
vigorous debate and conversation, as if it's like an open kind
of thing, like encouragingdiscussion, encouraging give and
take, encouraging all that,yeah Well and I think you see
this within religious circles,you see this at religious Bible
(01:00:42):
schools.
You see it a lot.
And when I think about thiswhole notion of debate and
asking questions, the one thingthat pops up sometimes is this
notion of it's not about askingthe question, it's what you do
with the question.
Religious communities like tosay that.
(01:01:03):
It always breaks my brain, butalso Noam Chomsky has a quote
that I always think about, thatI always think about.
The smart way to keep peoplepassive and obedient is to
strictly limit the spectrum ofacceptable opinion but allow
very lively debate within thatspectrum.
And I think we do that and wethink we're being open, we think
(01:01:23):
we're being innovative, butwe're really just regurgitating
the same ideas.
Speaker 2 (01:01:30):
Right.
Our political environment reeksof this, where, instead of
seeing issues as having multiplesides, it's just two sides, as
if any issue is that simple, andyet what that does, then, is
limit.
It creates a false choice, andit limits our conversation to
(01:01:51):
being what the powers that bewant us to be talking about.
It distracts us from otherthings that maybe would serve
our interests.
Speaker 1 (01:01:59):
It also creates a very us versus them attitude.
Yeah, Like it really digs intothat dynamic which really is not
serving us well Not at all.
Speaker 2 (01:02:10):
So how do we cultivate curiosity and unsafe
spaces?
I mean, we have to acknowledgethat there are good reasons that
people hesitate to say whatthey're really thinking.
Speaker 1 (01:02:22):
Right, because saying what you really think can limit
your job opportunities.
It can limit so much in asocial network and your
credibility.
Speaker 2 (01:02:36):
It can limit your credibility.
It can limit what.
It can very quickly make you anoutcast.
Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
Right, because you're challenging those hierarchy
norms that are working for thosewho have power, and I think
that that is something reallyreal and I don't know how you
get to a place where you justdon't care, like I feel, like
(01:03:02):
I'm kind of there, but I'm notsure how I got there.
Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
I can identify with that At some point.
It's understanding that thatfear, it's understanding that
there's something more importantthan the fear.
This is why someone will runinto a burning building to save
someone that they really careabout or to save someone that's
in there is because something ismore important than the fear of
(01:03:28):
danger.
And so I'm saying, if we arestanding on principle, if we see
a situation where not asking,we're not pointing out that the
emperor has no clothes is goingto hurt someone, right, or
whatever the value is then ourvalue can help us override that
(01:03:48):
fear in the moment, or at leasthelp us see oh wait, that fear
is not the most important thing.
Speaker 1 (01:03:54):
Right, and yes, I think there's that.
But I think even deeper thanthat, and perhaps this is
somewhat selfish now that I'mlike saying it out loud, but
it's all of a suddenunderstanding that it's not
working anyway.
Speaker 2 (01:04:08):
Yes, oh, abs, yes, yes.
And that fear starts.
It starts to look like a.
We start to see through thefear.
Speaker 1 (01:04:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:04:17):
Yeah, and you realize oh wait, this is not.
Speaker 1 (01:04:20):
what is the worst thing that can happen?
Yeah, Because by me playing thegame I probably won't make it
anyway.
Speaker 2 (01:04:27):
Yeah, yeah, I'm not gonna, you're not gonna win
anyway.
Yeah, because the game's riggedagainst you.
And you know and here's thething that I think is something
worth thinking about that oftenin places where curiosity is
most discouraged, right wheregroupthink or you know whether
it's you know implicitly throughgroupthink or explicitly
oftentimes in those placesasking questions can be
(01:04:50):
especially important.
I mean, that can be a crucialact of truth-telling and
resistance against an oppressivestatus quo.
And so seeing that questioningas an act of resistance I think
can be empowering.
Again, not saying in everysituation, everywhere is the
(01:05:12):
thing to do, because when a copstops me, I'm not arguing with
the cop Because I know the cophas a handheld killing machine
and I'm not going to argue.
But in other situations, wherethere is someone who maybe has
more social status than I do, ifI can recognize that fear as
(01:05:33):
being a way to prop up unjustsystems, that helps me see
through the fear and seesomething more important and
reach for that.
Something that can grow out ofthat process, then is developing
internal safety withinourselves, that self-trust,
believing that we are seeingwhat we're seeing, believing the
(01:05:54):
evidence in front of us,believing in what we value and
in taking steps toward that,whether that is community,
whether that is whatever that is, from that place of confidence,
we won't be surprised then whenthose who don't share our
values don't validate us.
Instead of seeking validationfrom those who don't share
(01:06:18):
values, we'll seek connectionwith those who do, and I think
asking those questionsinternally is a place to start
building that confidence beforewe ever express them.
Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
Right and within that self-trust and building that
confidence, before we everexpress them Right and within
that self trust and buildingthat confidence, it's this, this
being okay, the sense of beingokay with getting it wrong.
Yeah, all those quote leadershave got it wrong 1000 times.
They just have more money,resources, they have more status
to forgive that.
(01:06:50):
And there's right and there's,yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know the Bible verse loveforgives a multitude of sins.
Speaker 2 (01:06:58):
It's not love.
It's not love it's money.
Speaker 1 (01:07:01):
It's money.
Money covers a multitude ofsins, but sometimes just the
other day, a friend made thecomment that you know that was
my mistake to make, just let medo it.
And I think about that a lot,like, yeah, sometimes it's my
mistake to make, let me do it.
(01:07:21):
And I think we need to be okaywith making mistakes, owning
mistakes and allowing otherpeople to make their mistakes
too.
Speaker 2 (01:07:32):
I love that.
I love your notes here in ouroutline about being willing to
live without answers.
Speaker 1 (01:07:39):
I am almost convinced that there are some questions
that we don't need to haveanswers for.
I don't think there's supposedto be answers for certain
questions, and I would arguethat that's what real faith
looks like.
Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
Are you in that?
Are you also saying that it'sstill worth asking the question
even if there's not a clearanswer?
Speaker 1 (01:08:02):
Yes, because there's so much beauty within that
there's so much like there is abeauty and a wisdom.
I think that comes fromacknowledging and living in the
mystery and in that unknown.
Speaker 2 (01:08:16):
And it can open up so many doors of possibilities
that and help us imagine waysthat things could be.
Speaker 1 (01:08:23):
You know, there's the verse where Mary pondered these
things in her heart Mm, hmm,and I sometimes think about that
.
I mean, I know this isdifferent and I'm not trying to
spiritualize asking questions atall.
But I do think there's somethings that you can ponder in
your heart, and you can eventhen say them out loud and give
(01:08:43):
up the notion of having to haveabsolute truth and absolute
facts in philosophy and I forgetwhich philosopher it was.
Was it Plato?
He talks about?
You know, having this perfectchair the original ideal yeah.
And you know, we createdifferent versions of this
perfect chair and there needs tobe this quest for the perfect
(01:09:09):
chair and I'm always shocked howeasily Christians believe and I
think any faith practice doesthis they believe they have the
perfect version of the chairthey found.
Speaker 2 (01:09:25):
Yeah, and everybody's just trying to get to the truth
they have.
Speaker 1 (01:09:29):
Yeah, and I always think that's so sad.
Speaker 2 (01:09:31):
Yeah, like it is so sad, how limiting.
Yeah, you know, when we thinkabout curiosity and the
importance of it and the placeswhere it's an option right or
not can really be an importantsignal, like when we're in a
situation where we feel safe, wefeel seen, we're allowed to
(01:09:53):
wonder out loud, we're allowedto ponder, to use the word you
just used that communicates,that's a way of knowing that we
are in an emotionally safe place.
And when people don't feel thatsense of safety, it's not a
(01:10:13):
personal failing, but it issaying something about the
environment they find themselvesin.
It probably is the result of asystem that has trained them to
stay silent in that situation.
But, as we wrap up here, thatour listeners can take with them
the inspiration to ask if anenvironment they are in is
(01:10:37):
giving them the space to askquestions and why or why not.
You know what part of that isinternal pressure, what part of
that is external pressure andwhether or not that context is,
and to seek connection withenvironments that do welcome
curiosity.
Speaker 1 (01:10:56):
As well as creating environments that invite
curiosity.
Speaker 2 (01:11:04):
It's worth remembering that the riskier it
feels to ask the questions, themore urgent those questions
probably are.
Speaker 1 (01:11:13):
Oof, that's a tough one, but I think it's so true.
And here are a few thoughts wewant to leave you with.
When was the first time youremember feeling safe enough to
ask hard questions but thenrealized it wasn't safe after
all?
I think oftentimes, as kids, wethink we're safe and we think a
(01:11:34):
question just makes sense toask.
But this doesn't make sense.
So you ask that hard questionand in asking the question you
realize that it wasn't safeafter all, and that is evidenced
by the way you were thendiscouraged, shamed, maybe even
(01:11:55):
punished for being curious, andyou were taught not to challenge
rules, and you were discouragedfrom wanting to understand more
than what you were supposed toyou were supposed to.
As always, we'd love to hearyour story.
You can send us a voice memo,an email or even a text.
(01:12:15):
Just use the link in the shownotes.
Speaker 2 (01:12:26):
And thanks once more to our wonderful listener who
sent this question in.
We always love to hear from youand all our listeners.
We love those questions and theway that they extend our
conversation and even the way wethink Right.
So, as always, if this episodestirred something in, you share
it with a friend, maybe somebodywho is asking quiet questions
(01:12:47):
of their own right now.
As always, friends, thanks forlistening.
Until next time, stay curiousand stay courageous.
This is.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Rebecca, and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path Along the
way, we've uncovered a fewinsights we want to share with
fellow travelers.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up, we are here to cheeryou on and assure you that the
best is yet to come.
Welcome to Uncovered LifeBeyond.
Hello everyone, Welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.
(01:08):
This is Naomi.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
And this is Rebecca.
So we're back again.
Look at us being consistent,you know.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
I'm going to enjoy it while it lasts.
I thought school's out Now.
You know we can really get onthis and just like every other
year it turns out having an openschedule can almost be worse
for getting things done thanhaving a regular tight,
(01:36):
overbooked schedule.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Well, and you know, I don't know if we've ever said
this on the podcast, but wepromised each other when we
started this that we would onlydo it as long as it's fun and
that we wouldn't get real rigidabout ensuring that it happens.
And I'm kind of glad we madethat promise to each other
(02:01):
because it really gives usfreedom and I think that helps
keep it fun for us freedom, andI think that helps keep it fun
for us.
It keeps help, it helps keep itfun for me at least.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Right, I have been thinking along those lines too,
because the Buzzcast is apodcast about podcasting
Buzzsprout, which is the ourhost, the host for our podcast,
and they were talking about, youknow, the things that make for
successful podcasts recently,and they were one of the things
(02:30):
that they talked about wasconsistency, and this is not an
original thought, of course,that you know.
It's the consistency showing upevery week and showing up every
week, right.
And I thought to myself, well,that's great, but also I'm glad
that we've given ourselvespermission to be persistent
instead of consistent, right.
And then the next week, on thenext episode, then they were
(02:53):
talking about a list that Appleput out of the top 20 podcasts
the last 20 years, or somethinglike that, and one of the things
they talked about was thenumber of high profile shows
that aren't consistent, and youknow.
And so it was kind of balancingout what they were just saying
the week before and I was, Ifelt so vindicated, but I agree,
(03:16):
like if we were doing this forour job, well, that's a
different, that would be adifferent situation, right and
you know, if someone wants to,and if someone wants to sponsor
us, you know great, then we'llbe consistent right, we'll
figure it out.
Yeah, out then.
But but I love, I think, andfor good reason, there's a lot
(03:38):
of pressure to monetize whateverour hobby is like.
That's kind of like right beingas the thing to do, like, oh,
it's the thing you love to do,and then you, if you get paid
for it, you don't, you know, itfeels like you're getting paid
for um, for having fun.
But we know that money changesthings and I love having this as
(03:59):
a hobby yeah a hobby that costsus money, because it costs us
money to host it to do things.
We are the ones who are editingand doing all that.
So that.
Well, you're the one that'sediting but my point is like I I
just don't even have to thinkabout like it can just be for
(04:20):
fun and I love that and I justwant to encourage anyone out
there and I have been well, you,rebecca, have had the
misfortune of hearing me on mysoapbox countless times.
But I think if someone has anopportunity to pursue something
they love, they do not need tofeel guilty for doing that.
Like that is a good thing andit's life giving and just
(04:45):
because something, just becausea capitalist society decides
something is worth money, butyou know, you know compensation
doesn't mean that that's theonly way to value it.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Right, yeah, I've been thinking a lot about
chronic illnesses and kind ofobserving people who struggle
with it, and I think it'snoteworthy that typically it's
females who have a chronicillness, and I think about the
ways females are typically theones who are worked and worked
(05:20):
and worked until they break.
And I don't have any answersfor it, but it's something I
think about a lot.
And how did we get to the pointthat?
That's kind of where the femalevalue is placed.
What is my worthiness if Ican't produce?
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Right, and I've also heard that a lot of those
psychologically related chronicillnesses have to do with
conflicting emotions.
Like you know, I love my kidsand also being a mother and
everything else is totallyoverwhelming.
But I can't say that I'mtotally overwhelmed because if I
do, then I'll be seen as a badmother.
(06:02):
I love this person who is alsodoing these bad things to me,
like those conflicting feelingsthat we can't express.
It's when we never get toexpress them and they're sitting
inside us.
That's what makes us sick, Imean, and it's way more
complicated than that.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
But I also think there's the side where they are
expressed, and then you're kindof shamed for it.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah, it's invalidated Absolutely.
There's good reason not to talkabout it, right, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
So I think there's many people who have spoken up
and have said I'm tired, I'moverwhelmed, this isn't working.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Said I'm tired, I'm overwhelmed, this isn't working,
but no one seems to care orlisten or take it seriously,
right?
Or I know, when I think aboutother moms, that I know here in
my area and they're good people,people I trust and have
confidence and all that, but Iknow they're stressed just as
thin as I am.
Like you know, they're as busyor busier than I am, so like I
hate to ask them, and I knowthat's a whole can of worms.
(07:10):
All that to say that oursociety does not make it easy
for us to get that support andour bodies are keeping the score
, and I think that's justbecoming more evident all the
time.
And I I think of Zahn.
She's a Facebook contentcreator.
What would we call her?
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Kind of yeah, influencer yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Influencer, yeah, and she talks a lot about women's
issues and and she talks abouthow our society treats women
like toasters.
In, you know, in the home, it'slike and you get your toaster.
The minute your toaster stopsworking, you get rid of it and
get another one.
There's no, it's like, if itdoesn't serve me, get rid of it.
And I think that so many of usare being treated like toasters
(07:56):
and being expected to bake breadand then not working.
And then it's like well, what'swrong with you?
Why are you sick?
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
So, I don't have a solution other than maybe we
should be supporting familiesinstead of subsidizing
billionaires, but that, I guess,is that would be unethical.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
I say that with a lot of sarcasm and statistically
the highest chance of divorcefor a female is if she becomes
ill.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Yeah, yeah.
Well and that just plays intothat toaster analogy.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Right, yeah, well, it affirms the toaster, analogy.
Yeah.
So on that bright, happy note,we did kind of start it off
cheerfully, didn't we?
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Well, this is kind of what mystifies me is when I
look at my life, like right now.
In a lot of ways the last twomonths, my life is as friction
free as maybe it's ever been,and yet I still, most days, just
feel this bone deep fatigue.
(09:07):
And I know I'm not alone inthat.
I know a lot of peopleexperience that and I guess I'm
going wait, I've got, I've hadopportunity to rest the last two
months, much of the last twomonths.
Why do I still feel so tired?
I don't, I don't know.
But and there I took it toanother bright spot, my point
being it's not like life ishorrible, except except there is
(09:29):
my car situation.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
And car situations are horrible.
They are horrible.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
I've been making repairs on this car.
I love the car.
What do I love about it?
I like driving it.
I love the look of it.
I mean it's kind of the sizecar that I've wanted for a long
time but also it is needingrepairs, one after the other,
and I get it back from the shopand finally get the alternator
(09:56):
working Second alternator, bythe way and then the air
conditioner stops and that'sgoing to be $1,000.
And when I looked at I wastalking with the manager of the
mechanic shop and told her hey,what do you think?
Do I need a different car?
She's like oh yeah, and she hadvery specific advice for me and
(10:17):
I'm going to call her back andI'm going to get some more
advice from her on how toproceed.
But I think I need, she said,get a Honda or Toyota.
So I'm going to have to call mybanker and see what we can do
and I might just have to breakdown and buy a car that's, you
know then, less than 10 or 12years old, which, to be honest,
like I think longingly at timesabout my 2007 Grand Caravan that
(10:41):
was so rusty, it looked awful.
2007 Grand Caravan that was sorusty, it looked awful it's.
It wheezed and made all kindsof weird sounds, but it wouldn't
die and it was paid off and itwas.
The insurance was cheap but itwouldn't die.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
So, and I couldn't wait to get rid of that car.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
But now you kind of miss it.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
But now I kind of miss it and I'm going oh, do I
just bite the bullet and go backto a minivan, go, find yourself
a nice Honda or Toyota.
Well, I'm going to give that ashot.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
I'm going to.
I think you should.
I think you should.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
I think so.
You had mentioned to me when Iwas talking with you about this
the other day that you know,those of us who've grown up with
the very Dave Ramsey influencedapproach to money have a really
hard time going into debt for acar or we feel a lot of guilt
about that kind of thing, and Iknow that's real for me and I
(11:33):
think it's not that that's badadvice.
It's just not realistic for allof us.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Right, particularly if you're a single mom or a
female.
I mean, you have to have a carthat gets you where you need to
go and doesn't leave youstranded.
It's one thing for Dave Ramsey,a white man with a wife, to
back him up, to pick him up ifhis vehicle breaks down, to say
(11:59):
that type of thing, but ifyou're a single mom and a female
, what are your options?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Right, and I'm not sure if he's the one, it's
someone like him.
If it's not, him that saysthings like you know, get an
older car and a good mechanic,yeah Well, that's easy to say,
but you know that doesn't.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
That's also easy to say if you're a man going into a
mechanic shop.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah, and also if you don't have to have, if you
don't have to be at work at acertain time every day, if you
don't need a car that's reliable, if you're not driving out of
town, driving long distances.
I'm not saying that buying amore expensive car is a good
investment in terms of dollarsand cents, but I'm saying buying
(12:47):
an old car that needs lots ofrepairs is not necessarily safe
or realistic for everyone, andwe don't.
It's not a personal failing onour part if we have to borrow
money for a car or make carpayments.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
So thank you for that .
Okay, that is.
That is my sunshiny life rightnow.
Tell me about your life.
What's going on with you?
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Hey, we are working, we're doing doctor's
appointments, trying to coax mygarden into producing green
beans, putting up with a lot ofrain and then a lot of heat.
That that pretty much the yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
That sounds delightful.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Yeah, my one kid needs to go to Michigan about
once a month now, which is abouta three and a half hour drive
to a clinic, and of course ourinsurance doesn't accept them or
they don't accept our insurance.
I'm now unclear which way thatgoes, but anyway, it's kind of a
last ditch effort to find somehelp, so I've been working more
(13:50):
hours to help cover that too.
So yeah, that's pretty much mysummer.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
I've heard different people talk about how you know
the idea that you just have 18summers with your kids and then
that's it, that you know.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Kind of critiquing that and man you know, why don't
we just shame, why don't wejust shame people like for
Pete's sake.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Well, and I guess I'm just thinking like your family
and many, many other familiesare a good example of how that
is not how it works for for alot of us and that, and that
your kids need you and that thecaregiving continues even after
somebody turns 18.
And caregiving is.
(14:30):
Our society treats caregivingas though it's like this kind of
unique thing, but the realityis every last one of us needs
caregiving at some point in ourlives.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Like this is not going away.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Right.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
But we treat it as though it, as though it's some
kind of special kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Right, well, and you know they want to talk about.
The 18 summers is all you have,or whatever, but yet, oh my
goodness, are you.
Do you have a college fund?
And what do you do if your kidhas a chronic illness?
Or what do you do if you know,whatever life happens?
So don't, don't guilt me aboutmy 18 summers.
And how about talking just moreabout building relationships?
(15:11):
So, even so, your kids want tovacation with you when they're
2021.
I mean, like that's what theywant to do.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
That they want to spend time with you, right,
right, so let's drop the guiltabout.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
All you have is 18 summers, like, let's just drop
it and just support each otherfor wherever we find ourselves.
It's kind of what life is, Iagree, but anyway, enough about
our little lives.
What is our conversation fortoday?
Can you believe we're going totalk about something other than
(15:45):
ourselves?
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Well, we're going to have to put a chapter marker in
here, so folks who want to skipover the chitchat can do that.
There you go, there you go youknow there's some podcasts I
love the chitchat and others notso much and so giving folks an
option, that might be what weneed to do.
So our conversation today is aresponse to a letter we got from
(16:09):
a listener who reached out tous after our April episode with
Patricia Lewis, where we weretalking about what it means to
live a life of continuouslearning.
Rebecca, do you want to read itfor our listeners?
And this is we're sharing thiswith our listeners' permission
and taking out some of theidentifying details.
(16:29):
The message of the letterresonated with us and I think it
will resonate with the rest ofour listeners too.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
And thank you so much for sending in this letter and
email or I guess it's an emailand for those of you who do
share your thoughts with us,please know we so appreciate it
and I think it's really cool howit kind of continues the
conversation and oftentimesthere's so much you could say
about something and I like theway it keeps developing.
(16:57):
But she wrote, one of the briefthemes was the encouragement to
learn more and seek outinformation.
Basically, I think you'retalking about curiosity.
I hear that a lot.
Be curious, nurture yourcuriosity, and I think it was
Oprah that said you can't becurious if you do not feel safe.
How true.
(17:18):
I think about boys in school andI don't know if this is still
current that could ask questions, push boundaries and be okay to
some degree.
Girls, on the other hand, canbe shamed for asking certain
questions or trying to push thelimits.
And the writer continues sayingshe knows two sisters who are
biracial, adopted several yearsago.
(17:39):
They are teens now in an almostentirely white school.
A black girl that is curious, ablack girl that challenges
authority, a black teenager thatasks the wrong questions.
Wow, the stories I can tell you.
Let's just say I am a firmbeliever that a person must feel
safe somehow, internally,externally, whatever to venture
(18:03):
out and be willing to learn.
We can tease that apart for awhile.
Why do some Amish kids feelsafe enough to challenge and ask
and others don't how much isthe makeup of the individual and
how much is the environment?
And boy, doesn't that lastsentence or that last paragraph
really emphasize what we talkedabout from the Elizabethtown
(18:26):
symposium as well what we talkedabout from the Elizabethtown
symposium as well.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
That's right.
The line that really stuck withme was you cannot be curious if
you don't feel safe.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
And I wonder if it's almost more of a thing of you.
Can't be curious if you careabout safety?
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yes, yes, and this is why today's episode is called
the Courage to Ask why, because,as simple and beautiful as
curiosity sounds, it's notequally encouraged for everyone,
and I think it's important totalk about the fact that it is
that way, and why and how gender, race, religious upbringing all
(19:11):
these different factors canshape whether we feel free to
ask hard questions or whetherwe're shamed or punished or
discouraged from even trying.
And that leads us to a largerquestion of what it takes to
stay curious in unsafe placesand how power structures I mean
everything from church to schoolto family discourage
questioning in ways that areoften invisible or just kind of
(19:35):
beneath the surface until wename it.
Sometimes it is explicit andother times it's implicit, and
sometimes, when it's implicit,it's almost harder to identify
and push back against.
And I think that leads us to aconcluding question of what
would it look like to buildcommunities that don't just
tolerate curiosity but actuallynurture it?
(19:55):
So let's get into it when youhear the quote you cannot be
curious if you do not feel safe.
What comes up for you?
What does safety mean there foryou?
Speaker 1 (20:05):
I think so often, when people dare to ask
questions that make other peoplefeel uncomfortable, that is
when the shame, punishments, theguilt sets in, and I think it's
interesting how often we areconditioned to ensure that those
(20:27):
in authority, particularly themales around us, are comfortable
.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Can we drill down on that word comfortable or
uncomfortable, Because that'sone of those words that we use a
lot to mean a lot of differentsituations.
What is the discomfort we'retalking about in the situation
you just described?
The kinds of situations?
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Well, don't societies have status quos in order to
nurture this sense of we knowwhat to expect.
We feel comfortable in thissense of social norms, yeah, and
then if someone comes in and atall disrupts that, it's usually
(21:11):
not taken kindly.
But I think also, females arealso, are expected to nurture
physical comfort in others.
Are you hungry?
Oh, let me cook you a meal.
Do you have dirty laundry?
All right, let me go do yourlaundry.
Oh, the bathroom's messy.
(21:32):
Yes, I'll go clean it.
We are literally taught to dothat for the men in our lives as
well.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Make things comfortable for them.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Right, I think there's a lot of varying ways in
which we're taught to do this,ways in which we're taught to do
this, but I feel like questionsand challenging the status quo
creates a disturbance thatpeople who aren't emotionally
healthy often don't know what todo with.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Right, and I would also add to that people who are
kind of hanging on to theirposition of power control their
position, of their elevatedposition in the hierarchy.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Oh, those who are benefiting from it.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Those who are benefiting from it.
Right, yeah, yeah.
Anything that upsets the socialnorm that benefits them are
going to feel uncomfortableRight Right, absolutely,
absolutely.
That benefits them, are going tofeel uncomfortable Right, right
, absolutely Absolutely.
So I think kind of anysituation where you have that
real clear distinction of ahierarchical power setup that
that's.
This dynamic is at play.
You know, being able-bodied orany other number of categories
(22:43):
right, where one category isgiven more status than another
and so the higher you are inthat status then the more leeway
there is for you to question orpush back against the norms.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
I mean we get the line boys will be boys where
little girls are supposed to beangels and sugar and spice and
everything nice right and thenand then you have girls, and
maybe particularly black girls,who get policed for attitude or
disrespect, and we're taughtearly on, we're socialized how
(23:21):
to anticipate what other peoplemight need from us or how they
perceive us.
People might need from us orhow they perceive us.
And I can't imagine like Iexperienced that as a white
female and I can't imagine howthat scrutiny is compounded for
a black girl who dares to becurious in a white space.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Right right and having a sister of color, having
friends of color.
I know this is very real andit's heartbreaking to me how
often even the people, thewell-meaning people, the ones
who would you would hope wouldbe supportive of them, are not
of them are not and instead theycarry out that policing for
(24:11):
attitude or disrespect.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
You know I saw a reel the other day.
That was kind of interestingand you know it was probably
scripted, but I thought themessage was good.
Mom was in line at Starbucksordering her coffee.
Kid is in the backseat and says, mom, can I have a cookie?
And mom turns around and saysno, we have cookies at home.
And the kid is quiet for liketwo seconds and says, well, we
(24:35):
have coffee at home.
And mom just kind of gets thislook on her face like well, crap
, and turns to the Starbucksorder booth and says add a
cookie to the order, please.
But I think somehow we need tolearn to allow others to
(24:55):
influence us, and maybeparticularly those who have less
power than we do Like.
How do we learn to be open tothe questions that those who
have less power, either with ageor social structures or
(25:16):
hierarchy or even in religioussettings, how do we allow those
people to ask those types ofquestions?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Right, and I think that also gets at this question
of you know, the role of theenvironment and the individual.
And our letter writer wasasking you know, what is it that
makes someone?
What is it that prompts someoneto be more curious?
So, personality can certainlyenter into it.
Some are just more naturallycurious than others.
(25:44):
But then there's also theinfluence of an environment.
I mean, I think of things likesome of these extreme parenting
methods like blanket training.
That is beating literallybeating curiosity out of kids.
That is literally beatingcuriosity out of kids before
they can even talk.
It's child abuse.
But even if it's not blankettraining, there are other ways
(26:07):
that those messages are sent aswell.
Maybe they're even, maybe onthe face of it, maybe a little
less brutal, but but are stilleffective at shutting down that
curiosity and communicating tochildren, even young children,
that it's not something that'sencouraged.
And yet then still some kidsbreak free and others stay
(26:29):
compliant, and you can't predictwhich kind of upbringing is
going to result in a kid stayingcompliant or breaking free when
they get older.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
You know something people always said.
I mean my mom would say it.
I remember Grandma Peachysaying it.
I mean it was said in any typeof child training environment.
I think Dobson said this youhave to break their will, not
their spirit.
I mean, can we just callbullshit on that?
Can we just call bullshit?
Speaker 2 (27:01):
You know what I hear in that statement.
What I hear is break thechild's will so that they are
compliant and do what I wantthem to do, but without the
negative consequences ofbreaking a child's will.
Like you can't have your cakeand eat it too, folks.
And that's what I hear in thatstatement.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
And to dig even a little bit deeper on that, it's
a justification to be cruel.
Yes, it is, yes, it's ajustification to literally get
kids to respond on demand.
Like a toaster or a robot Like,yeah, like a robot.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Something I've noticed about what some of those
characteristics or thosefactors can be that go along
with someone breaking free,asking the forbidden questions
right versus staying compliant,is that it's often when there is
a breakdown in both theindividual's relationship with
family and church, like I seepeople who have maybe a really
(28:08):
difficult family situation butif they're, if they have still
have confidence in their churchfamily and the church community,
they'll stick around, or viceversa.
And I think that's often whenthose internal contradictions
become so obvious that theindividual can no longer accept
you know pat answers or thoughtstopping cliches that that's
(28:30):
often when they the point atwhich they break free.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Well, right, because it goes back to the original
thought or the originalstatement.
It's not safe anyway, so whynot challenge it?
Like, if my environment is notsafe, if my church isn't safe,
if my home life isn't safe, likewhat's happening is not working
.
So it like why not askquestions, why not disrupt the
(28:56):
system?
Because this isn't working,this isn't safe anyway.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Right, right.
And I think of one of the FLDSmemoirs about someone who left
the polygamous sack trying sohard to be faithful.
So trying so hard to befaithful, and when she was
finally told, look, you're goingto hell, because she wasn't
compliant enough, even thoughshe was trying so hard or
whatever it was, you know thatshe wasn't meeting expectations.
(29:22):
She was like, hey, I'm going tohell anyway, I might as well
have fun with what I have leftof life.
Yeah, and so it's like if Idon't have access to safety, no
matter how hard I try, thenwhat's the point?
Speaker 1 (29:35):
And I don't think religious communities understand
what happens to an individualwhen they no longer care about
the threat of hell.
Yeah, when they no longer careabout the threat of hell yeah,
when a person no longer caresabout the threat of hell, it
(29:56):
completely changes the way theyview life and how they show up
in life Absolutely.
And it's not always asdestructive as the religious
community would like you tobelieve too.
It doesn't mean that they justsay, oh well, I'm just going to
go out and kill and rape and dowhatever I want to do.
That narrative is so bullshitstupid it doesn't even make
sense.
But when you lose and get ridof this fear of hell, it allows
(30:22):
you to show up in a differentway.
You show up the way you want toshow up, because that's the
type of person I want to be.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Right, and the way that that fear of hell, or the
threat of hell, is lost isusually through seeing or coming
to terms with the emperorhaving no clothes.
It's through coming face toface with those beliefs or the
(30:49):
rules, the authority figures,and losing confidence that they
are what they claim to be, nolonger being able to deny that
water is wet.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
You know, I've often wondered, and I am like, I'm
truly wondering, if a lot ofthese religious leaders believe
in hell themselves, the amountof quote, sin and abuse that
they strategically hide andcover up for.
(31:19):
They cannot believe thatthere's a day of judgment.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Oh, but you just have to say the magic words.
They can't believe that?
Yeah, oh, but you have to saythe magic words.
They can't believe that, yeahWell.
And if they do believe in it,yeah.
I can't imagine the kind ofcognitive dissonance, the kind
of mental calisthenics they haveto go through to make it all
make sense and to be okay withhuman beings suffering for
(31:45):
eternity.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Well, there's a phrase, and I don't know where I
saw it, but if man is createdin the image of God, man is God.
Yeah, and I think oftentimesthese leaders believe they are
God.
Yeah yeah, and God got by withdoing some crazy stuff in the
(32:09):
Old Testament Crazy stuff.
And if God got by with doingsome of that crazy stuff, then
why shouldn't they?
Speaker 2 (32:18):
And by crazy you mean cruel right.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Yeah, and for me, that was a huge point in my
deconstruction was when I wentwait, yeah, here are all these
charlatans, here are all thesesnake oil salesmen claiming to
speak for God.
What if they are?
You know, what if God is asslimy as they are?
(32:43):
And what you're talking aboutwhen you read through,
especially in the Old Testament,the genocide that was commanded
, and to say, yep, this isjustice?
Well, that would explain a lot,something that's been helpful
for me to understand whycritical thinking is so
offensive to some people and whyit.
(33:04):
I mean and it's not just areligious thing, it's also in
secular environments too.
I mean being woke, havingempathy, all these things right
are considered.
These are considered bad thingsnow by the powers that be, and
one way that it's been helpfulfor me to think of this
conceptually is how that,through most of Western European
(33:29):
history, people have imaginedsociety as a giant pyramid that
was built exactly the way itshould be.
So you've got kings, nobles atthe top and then working your
way all the way down to thepeasants at the very bottom, and
this wasn't just a verypractical way to get the farm
work done, but this was God'swill, and knowing your place in
(33:52):
life was how you showed yourdevotion to God, where you
showed your morality, andeveryone was taught that they
had a natural place andquestioning it was like
questioning the divine order ofthe universe.
And then, of course, this alsogot carried over into gender
race, you know, and all thosecategories as well.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
But then and this was deep not just in society, but
also philosophy came along andmade this valid.
They tried to make this veryvalid.
Like it's deep in philosophy,it's deep in religion.
Everyone who could benefit fromit latched onto it.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Absolutely, absolutely.
The doctrine of discovery.
Yeah, so colonialism, just yes,the tentacles reached.
So far.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
So it's very deep in how much of our society is set
up.
It wasn't just a, a blip, yeah,or a passing notion.
Yeah, exactly Everyone in powerdug into it.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Right, and this was a context in which well, that
t-shirt you were wearing theother week, I loved.
It was like they didn't burnwitches, they burned women.
But when you hear about some ofthe ways that they determined
that a woman was a witch, youknow, and it was like if she
will throw her in the lake, andif she drowns she was innocent,
(35:23):
and if she swims she's guilty,she's a witch, and then gets
killed anyway.
That was considered justice.
But then you have thescientific revolution come along
, and people start asking whythe world worked the way that it
did, instead of just assumingwell, this is how things have
been set up and this is whatwe're going to go with, and not
(35:46):
just physically.
Obviously, there was that right, which is why they were
studying.
Scientists were studying thenatural world and observing
things, and they were figuringout like oh wait, maybe germs
are the cause of illness ratherthan evil spirits, maybe
somebody who has a health issueisn't cursed by a witch, but
(36:09):
maybe there's a physicalexplanation for it, and also
socially.
So instead of knocking thepyramid down, though, which is
what could have happened, manyof these thinkers just look for
new ways to explain and defendit, including philosophy, like
you pointed out, and they turnto science, biology, natural law
(36:30):
.
You know, women are justnaturally this way, men are just
naturally this way, and that'swhy we have to make tons and
tons and tons of artificial lawsso that these natural laws
aren't broken to justify thesame old hierarchies.
And it was like repainting thepyramid and calling it progress,
critical theories.
And when I'm talking aboutcritical theories here, I'm
(36:51):
thinking of, like you know, thekinds of things that well, that
I was introduced to in collegeand I think that's where a lot
of people are introduced to them.
But there's, you know, youdon't have to go to college, you
can, you can get introducedthese other places as well.
Um, but especially like fromthe tradition of karl marx, that
they essentially flipped thatscript and they said whoa, whoa,
whoa, whoa, whoa.
What if that pyramid isn'tnatural or right?
(37:13):
What if it's just a systembuilt by the powerful to keep
their power and to exploit theless powerful?
What if this isn't natural?
And so that then started thisother vein of thought,
diametrically opposed to thisstandard pyramid structure of
(37:35):
power, or, as it's familiarlyknown today, being woke.
It just means becoming aware ofhow our society trains us,
socializes us to see thatpyramid is norm and those.
You know that the people inpower are there because they are
(37:59):
more hardworking or becausethey are more moral, or because
they're smarter andunderstanding.
We're trained to see it thatway, even if it's unfair, even
if it's unfair, even if that'snot necessarily true.
And so bringing critical thoughtto this, then means asking who
built the structure, whobenefits and what might it look
(38:21):
like to build somethingdifferent?
So, for example, slavery.
Slavery was not natural.
There were tons and tons oflaws and tons and tons of
violence and effort that wentinto building that structure,
and during the time of abolition, the pro-slavery argument was
that, oh, our society wouldcollapse without slavery.
(38:44):
This is how, this is.
The only way we can, you know,we can survive as a civilized
society is to have slavery.
Well, guess what it turns out?
All they needed was women.
That too.
Also, having a five day workweek was supposed to end society
and civilization as we know it.
Uh, having a or an eight-hourwork, eight-hour work day sorry,
(39:05):
eight-hour work day, five-daywork week, having minimum wage,
was going to end society as weknow it.
It is really, reallyinteresting when you start
looking at political issuesthrough this lens of who is
setting this up, who isbenefiting from it and what are
some other options.
And I think the most importantthing to remember is that
(39:30):
whenever we're put in asituation where we're only given
two options, almost inevitablywe are being shuttled into,
we're being controlled, we'rebeing controlled by the powers
that be.
They're telling us that thereare only two options so that we
will choose the option they wantus to choose, and they
(39:51):
discourage questioning becausequestioning threatens to bring
down the whole house of cards.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
And I think I remember conversations as a kid
saying but wait, this isn't fair.
It's not fair that the boys getto do this and women don't, or
it's not fair that men get to bepreachers and women can't, or
it's not fair, you know,whatever.
And I remember being told it'snot about fair or unfair, it's
(40:20):
God's rules, it's the way Godordained it.
And so when you're taught thatjustice or fairness isn't even
considered, it opens up thiswhole new power structure.
Because what can you?
Speaker 2 (40:38):
argue with you can't, and that's the thing.
As someone who studies rhetoric, rhetoric, argumentation, good
reasons only works in asituation where there is a
possibility of persuasion.
In the case of a rigid powerstructure, there's no persuasion
because there's no arguing withviolence.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
And it doesn't matter if the person in authority has
coffee at home, they still gettheir coffee from Starbucks.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
They don't have to get their cookie.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
It doesn't have to be consistent, it does not have to
be fair and there's no way toinfluence that logic.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
And there's no way to influence that logic, Right?
Because in that situation thatyou described, that question
influenced the mother, but themother allowed herself to be
influenced.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Yes, exactly and in a tyrannical situation or in a
lot of institutional situationsthat's considered
insubordination.
But even to bring it closerhome back to and we talked about
this earlier women are sayingit's not fair that I'm doing all
(41:50):
the emotional work, it's notfair that I'm doing all this
labor at home and being unpaid,or it's not fair that I have to
be a stay-at-home mom and then,when I'm 40, try to get a job
that pays enough money.
Even when women are saying thisisn't fair, this is not working
(42:12):
, it doesn't matter because thisis the way it is, this is the
way God set things up.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Yeah, what's the saying?
God said it.
That settles it.
No, god said it.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
I believe it.
God said it, I believe it.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
Yeah, I believe it, that settles it.
Settles it yeah, but yeah shutsdown all dialogue.
And I think about all the waysthis has been reinforced in so
many conservative,fundamentalist religious
contexts.
There's Gothard's umbrella ofauthority.
That has certainly made therounds, and this idea.
(42:48):
You know that God's up at thetop, man, woman, children at the
bottom right.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
That umbrella needs to disappear.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
I think of teachings like touch not the Lord's,
anointed as a message that evenwhen a authority and authority
figure is doing something wrong,you shouldn't speak against it,
you should just go with it,because, or just pray.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
Just pray because God , like that's what you're told
over and over, just pray aboutit.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
I mean, gothard taught that you just pray about
it, that's the only which iscode for shut up and don't do
anything about it.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Well, but you know, if it's actually wrong, if it's
actually wrong and you'resubmissive and pray about it,
then that opens up the door forGod to work.
When you're doing the rightthing and when your heart is the
way it should be, then, andonly then, can God work in
authority.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
Right and, interestingly enough, god
usually just lets them do theirthing.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
Interestingly enough, that is is the worst form of
gaslighting.
That is the worst form ofinsanity.
Like that creates insanity,yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Thinking of curiosity as just not even questioning
the status quo but just havinghaving questions how that has
been discouraged.
I think about sermons I'veheard, where questions were
compared to the fall in theGarden of Eden, where Adam and
Eve started with the questionyea hath God said, did God
(44:30):
really say this?
And the idea was that if youtake something that is like an
established norm in yourcommunity and say, wait, does
the Bible really say this?
That that was an act ofrebellion.
To go back and check the statusquo against the word of God was
rebellion.
That's what broke my brain, asin my late teens when I realized
(44:53):
like wait a minute, wait aminute, aren't we supposed to be
Anabaptists and Biblicists?
When the substance of thatmessage sunk in with me, that's
when I lost confidence.
And I think also another way yousee that pyramid reinforced is
in the Anabaptist emphasis onforgiveness in asymmetrical
power relationships.
And you know, and I think thereis so much value in Anabaptist
(45:20):
teachings on pacifism and I canunderstand why that was a good
strategic move politically inthe movement at the time where
it is cruel and inhumane,because when this is brought
into personal relationships andin the same way you just said
you know, go pray about it andlet God work.
(45:40):
It's like someone in powerharms someone with less power,
and it's not just the personwith less power saying I'm going
to forgive them, it's thecommunity coming around and
bulldozing them into saying youmust forgive them.
And it's a way of just brushingit all under the rug and making
the problem go away, and thenthe community doesn't have to
(46:01):
deal with the embarrassingreality of a leader who's not
living up to their professedmorals.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
Or order to maintain this notion of pacifism.
We throw the marginalized andthe abused under the bus in the
name of pacifism, and that isnot the intent.
And I want to be really clearhere.
I know the Amish get criticizeda lot for the abuse that they
have going on in their circles,and that is true.
(46:31):
But you know what?
The rest of the Anabaptistworld isn't much better, whether
we have William McGrath,whether we have Cam Ministries,
whether we have John Henry Yoder, like the woke Mennonites don't
know what to do with John HenryYoder.
Am I using?
Am I saying his name right?
It's John Henry, right.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
No, John Howard John.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
Howard Yoder yeah, I was like Henry's, not right.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
John.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
Howard Yoder.
Yeah, the woke Anabaptistsdon't know what to do with him.
I'm not okay with blaming theAmish for having or for hiding
abuse without addressing thebeachies, the beachy Mennonites,
the whatever brand, the MCUSAgroups they all hide abuse, and
(47:18):
I think we need to get reallyhonest about that.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
It's not dependent on just being very conservative,
correct.
That's not right Absolutely.
And to go beyond our background, I mean we've just in the last
20 years have seen so manyscandals, so much sexual assault
, not just the sexual assaultsthat has been happening in
(47:42):
religious institutions beingexposed, but the cover ups.
And that's the real scandal isthe cover ups and the extent to
which the Catholic Church, theSouthern Baptist Convention and
we just go down the line likefind me an organization.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Find me a religious organization.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
That is not affected by this right.
Bodies Behind the Bus recentlydid an episode on, kind of an
update on the Southern BaptistConvention's failure to protect
victims.
Highly recommend that episodefor a sense of what is going on.
Essentially, instead ofaddressing the problems that
(48:24):
have been brought before them,they are essentially doubling
down on their decision toprotect predators.
They are ostracizing victims.
It's not just ignoring victimsif only we're ignoring.
No, it is outrightostracization and cruelty.
And it's now to the point wherethe folks who have been active
(48:49):
as advocates in trying to bringchange to the Southern Baptist
Convention are essentiallygiving it up as a lost cause,
and I don't blame them.
I think the Southern BaptistConvention are essentially
giving it up as a lost cause andI don't blame them.
I think the Southern BaptistConvention is telling us who
they are.
They have not been able to cometo terms with their history of
(49:09):
racism and down the line, andwhat they are making clear is
that these churches are aboutconsolidating power and money
and they don't care who getshurt in the process.
And they're telling us who theyare, so let's believe them.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
You know, I think it's so funny and this is
probably one of the most hiddenBible verses.
But Jude 22 says be merciful tothose who doubt.
Another translation says andyou must show mercy to those
whose faith is wavering.
I think for me, the place whereI saw this the most was Rachel
(49:48):
Held Evans, and every time Ispeak about Rachel Held Evans I
have so many conflictingemotions.
She did some things very, verywell.
Towards the end there were somethings that I was really
bothered by, but what she did doso well was open her platform
to those who see faithdifferently, to those who are
(50:10):
questioning faith, and when Ithink about faith actually
working, I think this summarizesit so well she this is what
God's kingdom is like A bunch ofoutcasts and oddballs gathered
at a table, not because they arerich or worthy or good, but
because they are hungry, becausethey said yes, and there's
(50:33):
always room for one more.
And I think it's funny because Imean, when you think about the
disciples, they were not apowerful, well-to-do batch of
people.
I mean, they were misfits.
They had all the questions.
We mock them for theirquestions, but yet we think we
(50:54):
have to be.
Speaker 2 (50:56):
I don't know how you get to mocking the disciples for
their questions, when that wasliterally what Jesus used to
start his ministry of how I meanall the Bible verses and
(51:22):
chapters that I've memorized andstudied and read and reread,
and all that over the years.
Yeah, I mean, I don't have itall memorized by a long shot,
but you know I.
But I recognize passages when Isee them.
Be merciful to those who doubtand you must show, or or the
other reading was you must showmercy to those whose faith is
wavering, like wow, wow that is,and yet we literally have this
(51:42):
song.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
Don't Be a Doubting Thomas.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
Yeah, yeah I mean, you know, and sometimes I look
at the most high profilereligious folks these days and
it's like if Jesus said it, theyrun screaming from it.
That's really what it lookslike, yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
When you think about the refugee situation, horrible
horrible.
Like I don't understand howanyone who calls themselves
Christian is okay with it.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
Yeah, I don't get it Right, and yet they will go
screaming over issues that theBible says nothing about Right.
I want to acknowledge somesecular ways that these
hierarchies can show up right,this pyramid of well.
This is just the way it'ssupposed to be.
I think schools are a placewhere you can see this kind of
(52:30):
dynamic, especially wheneducation is seen as well.
The teacher is here giving theinformation Paolo Freire, and
he's a south american writer whotalked about liberatory
education and he talks about thebanking model of education,
where, you know, the teachergives the students information,
(52:53):
the students are supposed tomemorize it and then be able to
spit it back out, so like a bankaccount account or like CLE or
BCE or ACN.
Speaker 1 (53:02):
Yeah, that's what.
Speaker 2 (53:02):
That's all about that's called rote learning.
Yes, exactly, it has beendebunked numerous times.
And what is a much better way tolearn is to approach learning
as exploration and encouragequestioning, encourage curiosity
in students.
(53:23):
I mean, that's just like no,yeah, there's just no question
about it.
And even though in educationaltheory that's now well
established, we still can seeremnants of that, because
historically, that teacher whohad all the answers was white
and male and instead of learningbeing prioritized, it was
respect for authority that wasbeing prioritized, and I think
(53:46):
we see that remnants of thatstill today.
And then, of course, we talkedabout racialized gender
hierarchies.
You know who gets the benefitof the doubt.
I think about how often in well,this is something we talked
about a couple months ago in ourepisode about when he's
progressive and public andpatriarchal at home how so many
(54:10):
people still kind of maintainthese gender hierarchies, even
though and also racial, eventhough we claim we're not racist
, we claim we're not sexist.
And yet if you have, say, aBlack person who dares to
question the status quo, if youhave a woman who doesn't comply
with the accepted norms offemininity, how quickly they get
(54:35):
in trouble.
And it's like this assumption,like, even though we're not
going to officially enforcethose hierarchies, we don't, we
claim we don't believe in them.
As soon as someone doesn't actin accordance with them, then we
call.
We have all kinds of names forthem and that hierarchy is in us
(54:57):
and we can't really get to thebottom of it until we recognize
how we've been socialized intoit, even if we intellectually
don't agree with it.
We have to recognize how thosetendencies lie within us and, in
the words of Terry wheel, weneed those who are in power to
sit down and the weak to standup.
Speaker 1 (55:16):
And I think something that we often forget to
understand and even discuss isthis difference between having
respect for authority and andrubbing the ego of authority,
and I think there's a hugedifference.
Speaker 2 (55:34):
Well, respect can mean so many different things,
right.
Speaker 1 (55:37):
And we need to make a difference.
Because pacifying someone's ego, I don't know, I'm too old for
that yeah, and I think there's adifference.
I think everyone deserves thetime of day.
That's just basic respect.
To me.
Everyone deserves to be heard,acknowledged, like people who
(55:59):
refuse to acknowledge someonethey know in public always kind
of break my brain.
To me that feels like literallysaying you don't deserve the
time of day, and to me that'sbasic respect.
You don't deserve the time ofday and to me that's basic
respect.
You don't deserve to beacknowledged.
Speaker 2 (56:15):
Your humanness doesn't deserve to be
acknowledged, and I think,though, sometimes respect can be
used as deference, and we'reoften expected to treat
authority figures with deference, but authority figures aren't
expected to treat underlings, toacknowledge their basic
(56:36):
humanity of underling Right,like the other day I was at work
and this pastor and his wifecame in and I was talking to
another customer at the otherend of the bar.
Speaker 1 (56:50):
So I tapped a coworker and motioned to the
pastor and his wife that justcame in and obviously she didn't
know who they were, butmeanwhile and I pointed her in
their direction and then, beforeI went back to talking to my
customer, I acknowledged her andsaid hi, and you know, whatever
, and I got nothing and Iremember being like that.
(57:13):
To me that is a prime exampleof someone in authority who
wants to be respected withoutgiving respect.
Speaker 2 (57:24):
Right.
I think that's one of thoseways that hierarchies get
maintained.
And then there's also thisthing of masking hierarchies,
like pretending they aren'tthere, and this is this, I think
, can take the form of phraseslike servant leadership, or, you
know, we accept everyone, oryou know, questions are welcome.
(57:45):
But then there's another partto it that that's left unsaid,
and when you scratch a littlebit beneath the surface, you
find, oh yeah, no, they're justignoring the hierarchy that
absolutely is there.
Speaker 1 (58:01):
And the hierarchy that's serving them Right.
The whole concept of servantleadership kind of breaks my
brain.
I think John C Maxwell is oneof the most conniving and
manipulative people ever, andI've read all his books.
What I perceive him as doing iscollecting himself a group of
(58:24):
mostly white men who want power,and he teaches them to get that
power While pretending theyaren't.
And he teaches them to get thatpower While pretending they
aren't, while pretending theyaren't.
And it's appalling to me whenthese local leadership groups
are created and it's alwaysattempting to attract people
(58:47):
with the most money.
Somehow we have decided thatall it takes to be a leader is
money.
It doesn't matter if you wereborn into it, it doesn't matter
if you were honest in yourdealings, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2 (59:01):
But they always use enough of a humble language, to
make it sound good, to make itdifficult to argue against.
Speaker 1 (59:10):
Yeah, yeah.
And then I hear stories of themarguing amongst each other,
even, and even in that there's avying for quote leadership and
arguing about who gets paid tospeak and how much they get paid
to speak.
And that's what we're callingleadership.
Speaker 2 (59:30):
And my guess Servant leadership right yes.
Speaker 1 (59:33):
Yes, and my guess is, for all the quote leaders that
show up at these seminars orsymposiums, or whatever they
want to call them, they have anadmin back at their place of
employment who's doing all thereal leadership work for them,
and it's probably Actual, day-toleadership work for them and
it's probably actual day-to-daywork.
Speaker 2 (59:54):
Yeah, and keeping track of everything, yeah.
Speaker 1 (59:56):
And oftentimes you will see a man who's out there
being the leader in thecommunity and his wife is at
home in the office making it allhappen, right.
So don't come at me with thisservant leadership thing.
It is not honest, it's nottransparent, it's a grab for ego
, it's a grab for status, it's agrab for power and even within
(01:00:20):
that, you hear theseconversations about having
vigorous debate and conversation, as if it's like an open kind
of thing, like encouragingdiscussion, encouraging give and
take, encouraging all that,yeah Well and I think you see
this within religious circles,you see this at religious Bible
(01:00:42):
schools.
You see it a lot.
And when I think about thiswhole notion of debate and
asking questions, the one thingthat pops up sometimes is this
notion of it's not about askingthe question, it's what you do
with the question.
Religious communities like tosay that.
(01:01:03):
It always breaks my brain, butalso Noam Chomsky has a quote
that I always think about, thatI always think about.
The smart way to keep peoplepassive and obedient is to
strictly limit the spectrum ofacceptable opinion but allow
very lively debate within thatspectrum.
And I think we do that and wethink we're being open, we think
(01:01:23):
we're being innovative, butwe're really just regurgitating
the same ideas.
Speaker 2 (01:01:30):
Right.
Our political environment reeksof this, where, instead of
seeing issues as having multiplesides, it's just two sides, as
if any issue is that simple, andyet what that does, then, is
limit.
It creates a false choice, andit limits our conversation to
(01:01:51):
being what the powers that bewant us to be talking about.
It distracts us from otherthings that maybe would serve
our interests.
Speaker 1 (01:01:59):
It also creates a very us versus them attitude.
Yeah, Like it really digs intothat dynamic which really is not
serving us well Not at all.
Speaker 2 (01:02:10):
So how do we cultivate curiosity and unsafe
spaces?
I mean, we have to acknowledgethat there are good reasons that
people hesitate to say whatthey're really thinking.
Speaker 1 (01:02:22):
Right, because saying what you really think can limit
your job opportunities.
It can limit so much in asocial network and your
credibility.
Speaker 2 (01:02:36):
It can limit your credibility.
It can limit what.
It can very quickly make you anoutcast.
Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
Right, because you're challenging those hierarchy
norms that are working for thosewho have power, and I think
that that is something reallyreal and I don't know how you
get to a place where you justdon't care, like I feel, like
(01:03:02):
I'm kind of there, but I'm notsure how I got there.
Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
I can identify with that At some point.
It's understanding that thatfear, it's understanding that
there's something more importantthan the fear.
This is why someone will runinto a burning building to save
someone that they really careabout or to save someone that's
in there is because something ismore important than the fear of
(01:03:28):
danger.
And so I'm saying, if we arestanding on principle, if we see
a situation where not asking,we're not pointing out that the
emperor has no clothes is goingto hurt someone, right, or
whatever the value is then ourvalue can help us override that
(01:03:48):
fear in the moment, or at leasthelp us see oh wait, that fear
is not the most important thing.
Speaker 1 (01:03:54):
Right, and yes, I think there's that.
But I think even deeper thanthat, and perhaps this is
somewhat selfish now that I'mlike saying it out loud, but
it's all of a suddenunderstanding that it's not
working anyway.
Speaker 2 (01:04:08):
Yes, oh, abs, yes, yes.
And that fear starts.
It starts to look like a.
We start to see through thefear.
Speaker 1 (01:04:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:04:17):
Yeah, and you realize oh wait, this is not.
Speaker 1 (01:04:20):
what is the worst thing that can happen?
Yeah, Because by me playing thegame I probably won't make it
anyway.
Speaker 2 (01:04:27):
Yeah, yeah, I'm not gonna, you're not gonna win
anyway.
Yeah, because the game's riggedagainst you.
And you know and here's thething that I think is something
worth thinking about that oftenin places where curiosity is
most discouraged, right wheregroupthink or you know whether
it's you know implicitly throughgroupthink or explicitly
oftentimes in those placesasking questions can be
(01:04:50):
especially important.
I mean, that can be a crucialact of truth-telling and
resistance against an oppressivestatus quo.
And so seeing that questioningas an act of resistance I think
can be empowering.
Again, not saying in everysituation, everywhere is the
(01:05:12):
thing to do, because when a copstops me, I'm not arguing with
the cop Because I know the cophas a handheld killing machine
and I'm not going to argue.
But in other situations, wherethere is someone who maybe has
more social status than I do, ifI can recognize that fear as
(01:05:33):
being a way to prop up unjustsystems, that helps me see
through the fear and seesomething more important and
reach for that.
Something that can grow out ofthat process, then is developing
internal safety withinourselves, that self-trust,
believing that we are seeingwhat we're seeing, believing the
(01:05:54):
evidence in front of us,believing in what we value and
in taking steps toward that,whether that is community,
whether that is whatever that is, from that place of confidence,
we won't be surprised then whenthose who don't share our
values don't validate us.
Instead of seeking validationfrom those who don't share
(01:06:18):
values, we'll seek connectionwith those who do, and I think
asking those questionsinternally is a place to start
building that confidence beforewe ever express them.
Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
Right and within that self-trust and building that
confidence, before we everexpress them Right and within
that self trust and buildingthat confidence, it's this, this
being okay, the sense of beingokay with getting it wrong.
Yeah, all those quote leadershave got it wrong 1000 times.
They just have more money,resources, they have more status
to forgive that.
(01:06:50):
And there's right and there's,yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know the Bible verse loveforgives a multitude of sins.
Speaker 2 (01:06:58):
It's not love.
It's not love it's money.
Speaker 1 (01:07:01):
It's money.
Money covers a multitude ofsins, but sometimes just the
other day, a friend made thecomment that you know that was
my mistake to make, just let medo it.
And I think about that a lot,like, yeah, sometimes it's my
mistake to make, let me do it.
(01:07:21):
And I think we need to be okaywith making mistakes, owning
mistakes and allowing otherpeople to make their mistakes
too.
Speaker 2 (01:07:32):
I love that.
I love your notes here in ouroutline about being willing to
live without answers.
Speaker 1 (01:07:39):
I am almost convinced that there are some questions
that we don't need to haveanswers for.
I don't think there's supposedto be answers for certain
questions, and I would arguethat that's what real faith
looks like.
Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
Are you in that?
Are you also saying that it'sstill worth asking the question
even if there's not a clearanswer?
Speaker 1 (01:08:02):
Yes, because there's so much beauty within that
there's so much like there is abeauty and a wisdom.
I think that comes fromacknowledging and living in the
mystery and in that unknown.
Speaker 2 (01:08:16):
And it can open up so many doors of possibilities
that and help us imagine waysthat things could be.
Speaker 1 (01:08:23):
You know, there's the verse where Mary pondered these
things in her heart Mm, hmm,and I sometimes think about that
.
I mean, I know this isdifferent and I'm not trying to
spiritualize asking questions atall.
But I do think there's somethings that you can ponder in
your heart, and you can eventhen say them out loud and give
(01:08:43):
up the notion of having to haveabsolute truth and absolute
facts in philosophy and I forgetwhich philosopher it was.
Was it Plato?
He talks about?
You know, having this perfectchair the original ideal yeah.
And you know, we createdifferent versions of this
perfect chair and there needs tobe this quest for the perfect
(01:09:09):
chair and I'm always shocked howeasily Christians believe and I
think any faith practice doesthis they believe they have the
perfect version of the chairthey found.
Speaker 2 (01:09:25):
Yeah, and everybody's just trying to get to the truth
they have.
Speaker 1 (01:09:29):
Yeah, and I always think that's so sad.
Speaker 2 (01:09:31):
Yeah, like it is so sad, how limiting.
Yeah, you know, when we thinkabout curiosity and the
importance of it and the placeswhere it's an option right or
not can really be an importantsignal, like when we're in a
situation where we feel safe, wefeel seen, we're allowed to
(01:09:53):
wonder out loud, we're allowedto ponder, to use the word you
just used that communicates,that's a way of knowing that we
are in an emotionally safe place.
And when people don't feel thatsense of safety, it's not a
(01:10:13):
personal failing, but it issaying something about the
environment they find themselvesin.
It probably is the result of asystem that has trained them to
stay silent in that situation.
But, as we wrap up here, thatour listeners can take with them
the inspiration to ask if anenvironment they are in is
(01:10:37):
giving them the space to askquestions and why or why not.
You know what part of that isinternal pressure, what part of
that is external pressure andwhether or not that context is,
and to seek connection withenvironments that do welcome
curiosity.
Speaker 1 (01:10:56):
As well as creating environments that invite
curiosity.
Speaker 2 (01:11:04):
It's worth remembering that the riskier it
feels to ask the questions, themore urgent those questions
probably are.
Speaker 1 (01:11:13):
Oof, that's a tough one, but I think it's so true.
And here are a few thoughts wewant to leave you with.
When was the first time youremember feeling safe enough to
ask hard questions but thenrealized it wasn't safe after
all?
I think oftentimes, as kids, wethink we're safe and we think a
(01:11:34):
question just makes sense toask.
But this doesn't make sense.
So you ask that hard questionand in asking the question you
realize that it wasn't safeafter all, and that is evidenced
by the way you were thendiscouraged, shamed, maybe even
(01:11:55):
punished for being curious, andyou were taught not to challenge
rules, and you were discouragedfrom wanting to understand more
than what you were supposed toyou were supposed to.
As always, we'd love to hearyour story.
You can send us a voice memo,an email or even a text.
(01:12:15):
Just use the link in the shownotes.
Speaker 2 (01:12:26):
And thanks once more to our wonderful listener who
sent this question in.
We always love to hear from youand all our listeners.
We love those questions and theway that they extend our
conversation and even the way wethink Right.
So, as always, if this episodestirred something in, you share
it with a friend, maybe somebodywho is asking quiet questions
(01:12:47):
of their own right now.
As always, friends, thanks forlistening.
Until next time, stay curiousand stay courageous.
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