July 13, 2025 • 68 mins
As midlife moms who have navigated identity changes without roadmaps, we're sharing what we've learned about translating caregiving experience into professional opportunities when facing a blank resume. We break down some of the emotional and practical aspects of job hunting for those who may have never had an official job title or feel their skills have expired.
• Challenging the myth that resume gaps mean you lack marketable skills
• Understanding how society's devaluation of women's work creates artificial barriers to employment
• Recognizing that managing family schedules, budgeting, and organizing events are valuable professional skills
• Using AI tools like ChatGPT to help translate caregiving experiences into professional resume language
• Identifying strategies to build confidence in job interviews without apologizing or sounding cocky
• Learning alternatives to excessive apologizing in professional settings
• Recognizing that experience matters, regardless of whether it came with a paycheck
• Finding the right support network that offers both encouragement and valuable feedback
Whether you're 21 or 61, you're not too late to make a career change. Your story isn't behind you—it's always unfolding, and we are cheering you on!
Links to Resources
How can I protect my privacy when using ChatGPT? (Boston University))
How To Write A BIFF Response® (High Conflict Institute): Brief, Informative, Friendly, Firm
Deborah Tannen and Language (National Endowment for the Humanities)
18 Sample AI Prompts for Career Exploration
Digital Writing Careers Information Sheet
Thanks for listening! Connect with us via
- Facebook: Uncovered: Life Beyond
- Instagram: @uncoveredlifebeyond
- Email: uncoveredlifebeyond@gmail.com
- Website: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2171591
Subscribe (for free) to Uncovered: Life Beyond on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts so you'll never miss an episode!
What topics at the intersection of education, high-demand religion, career, parenting, and emotional intelligence are of interest to you? Help us plan future episodes by taking this quick listener survey. We appreciate your input very much!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
This is Rebecca and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path Along the
way, we've uncovered a fewinsights we want to share with
fellow travelers.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up, we are here to cheeryou on and assure you that the
best is yet to come.
Welcome to Uncovered LifeBeyond.
Hello everyone, Welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.
(01:08):
This is Naomi.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
And this is Rebecca.
So today we're just going tokind of dive in and talk about a
big subject.
I know this is conversationsthat, naomi, you've had with
other women and something I'vebeen personally looking at quite
a bit, and it's this wholething of a resume and, to be
(01:32):
fair, oftentimes it's more aboutlooking at a blank piece of
paper where we think a resumeshould be and having this
feeling that maybe I personallydon't have any real marketable
skills and I want to work and Iwant to have a job, but what is
(01:52):
it that I can even do?
Speaker 1 (01:54):
So many of us have been there, and this episode is
for the person who maybe hasnever had an official job title,
maybe they're not even surewhat respect for their work
feels like, and they're going.
How am I ever going to get ajob that supports me?
How am I ever going to get ajob that's respected and that I
(02:17):
can feel good about?
And I hope this episode will bea warm blanket on a cold day or
, since we're right now in theheat of summer, maybe it'll be
more like jumping into a pool ofcool water on a sweltering hot
day.
When I've been in this kind ofsituation, the image that's come
(02:38):
to mind for me is that I'mstanding on the brink of this
huge chasm and on the other sideof this chasm is that ideal job
that's going to give mefinancial security and it's
going to be satisfying andmeaningful and all these things,
and I'm desperate to get therebecause I really need that.
And also I look at that, allthat space between me and the
(03:02):
other side, and wonder how inthe world I'm ever going to get
there, and it can feel sohopeless.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
It can feel so hopeless and you know, maybe the
reality is we haven't beengiven good skills to bridge that
chasm and maybe the other sideis a bit of an illusion as well,
and I think for many of usillusion as well, and I think
for many of us we've spent a lotof time in the work of
(03:28):
caregiving, or maybe we steppedaway from work because of
illness or burnout or maybe abig move.
There's so many things and whenyou take that and combine that
with a lack of a formaleducation or even paid work,
(03:52):
it's really difficult to definewho you are from a professional
setting.
And I think about the ways manyof us were even encouraged to
work, probably more female thanour male counterparts, but we
were encouraged to work for freeand trust the Lord to bless us.
(04:13):
And I think for people who'veexperienced that side of it too,
it really becomes thisdifficult and not just a
difficult process to workthrough.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
It's not just the difficulty in writing a resume
that an employer is going to beimpressed by, but it's the
emotional side of what's goingon inside us too.
Yeah, yeah, so true, so true.
So today, I think our goal isto bust the myth that someone
(04:48):
who is in this situation doesn'thave marketable skills or that
their skills have expired.
And this is while also sayingthis, is also acknowledging that
conventionally, gaps on aresume do invite questions, and
obviously there are some jobsthat require formal training or
certification.
So we're not here to say, hey,you can actually do whatever you
(05:10):
want to do, because we knowthat that's not realistic either
.
But we are here to say that wethink this chasm that stands
between us and a rewarding jobis more about how society
devalues women's work, how ittakes away any bridges to cross
(05:31):
that chasm, or the boats or theferries to cross the chasm.
And it's more about how societydevalues women's work than it is
about the actual value of whatwe have to offer.
And we think it's more abouthow women are often denied those
tools or discouraged frompursuing those tools early in
(05:52):
life.
And that's really that is thebigger problem than what is or
isn't on our resume.
And since this is not just anindividual issue, it's not just
a matter of an individual'sunique choices.
It's about how we function as asociety, as a system within a
society.
This is an important messagefor employers too.
(06:13):
This is an important messagefor people who are doing the
interviewing, and our messagefor you is please, please,
please, don't assume that aperson's resume is the sum total
of who they are.
Consider that your organizationmight be missing out on
incredible talent for yourbusiness when you overlook
someone who has some gaps intheir resume or their resume
(06:35):
doesn't exactly fit the criteriaof what you might expect to see
.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Right, right.
You know I have often observedthat it's easy to say that you
value stay-at-home moms or thatyou value diversity, until it
affects you personally, and thenit becomes more difficult to
actually put that into practice.
(07:01):
And I think this is such aamazing way for people in power
to show and to actually livetheir values.
Many employers or many peoplein power would say they've
benefited from having astay-at-home wife or mother to
(07:24):
either raise you or support youas a professional.
Women joke among themselvesthat we all want a wife, and
this is such an incredible wayto actually live what you say
you believe.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
When I think about this, I think of a situation I
once witnessed where a ministerand he was a nice guy, he was a
nice guy was talking.
This person no longer had childcare, child child care
(08:06):
responsibilities at this pointanymore.
But that was held against them,and this was a nice person who
was doing this.
This was not some kind ofhorrible bigot.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
True and like locally here and again.
This was a pastor who has areally big organization publicly
said that you have to becareful about hiring young women
because they just get marriedand have babies about the time
you get done training them.
Sexism is alive and well.
Yeah, and it's such a demeaningway to look at not just women
(08:43):
but teenagers and young girls.
And we say we value marriage,we say we value motherhood, but
do we really Not?
When it costs us something, wewant it to benefit us.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
And speaking of costing something or going
against the grain, I think anyemployer that really takes this
to heart can see this as anopportunity to exercise that
growth mindset and to beperceived as a leader in the
community, and I think that's ahuge opportunity for someone who
(09:18):
wants to live out their valuesin this way.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
For sure, and it takes an incredible amount of
emotional intelligence to knowand to understand that we don't
all start out on third base oreven second base, and this is
such a brilliant way to makesure that everyone gets a chance
and that we don't have peoplewho end up needing to rely on
(09:44):
welfare.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Absolutely.
And on top of all this, this isalso an invitation to these
employers to have the integrityto pay a fair day's wage for a
fair day's work, regardless ofgender.
I'll always remember I believeit was Larry Burkett and he was
kind of the.
He's long gone now, but he waskind of the Dave Ramsey before.
Dave Ramsey was Dave Ramsey.
(10:06):
This is kind of one of thoseweird things.
Why did this stick with me?
I don't know, but I rememberhim saying that when his
organization needed to hiresecretarial staff,
administrative staff, he hired abunch of stay-at-home moms or
formerly stay-at-home momsbecause they needed flexibility
and he was willing to give themthe flexibility and also they
(10:27):
accepted lower wages and he wasproud of this.
He thought that was a goodthing.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
And he taught that as a model of how to run a
business.
I mean, Larry Burkett was likethe early financial guru guy and
I don't think I will understandhow exploiting someone else for
your benefit is consideredleadership, and not just
(10:52):
leadership, but Christianleadership.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Yeah, unless exploitation is a feature, not a
bug.
But I guess that's a soapboxfor another day.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
But I guess that's a soapbox for another day.
Yeah, all that being said, ourgoal today is to help you spot
the skills you do have and howto use tools like generative AI
to help you tell your story andto understand who you are with
confidence.
(11:24):
And I know, I know AI soundsscary.
But hear us out.
And, in addition to that,remember we don't have any
magical solutions.
We're not Mary Poppins, we'renot going to pull the perfect
job out of our bag, but we wantto point out ways to help you
understand what you're seeingLike.
(11:46):
Sometimes I think we see things, but it's really difficult to
name what we're seeing, and wewant to help you do that.
And we also want to help yourecognize the power that you do
have and how to hold that powerand use it to benefit you.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
So our first segment is about the resume gap trap,
and, before we talk aboutcomposing the resume itself, I
think it's important to make afew caveats.
First of all, resumes get a lotof attention because they are a
foundational part of ourprofessional identity and also
(12:28):
it's one of the few things underour control, and because of
these reasons, it's easy toobsess over it, and I think it's
really important not to takethis episode here today or
conversation here today assaying as encouraging anyone to
obsess over their resume.
It is an important tool, butit's just one tool.
(12:48):
It's way more important to workwithin a network, to be able to
talk about our qualificationsin a relevant way, and so in
that way, the resume is more atool to help prepare us for the
workforce rather than as amagical document that's going to
just, you know, open doors.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Right and I think it's fair to point out.
For many of us who werestay-at-home moms were involved
in caregiving our networksaren't going to be the same as
those who are out on the golfcourse, and I think, while
networks are important, it canalso produce feelings of shame
(13:35):
because you feel like you aren'tconnected enough.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
And you probably aren't.
I mean, that's the point youmake about the golf course is so
true.
That's why the golf course isthe stereotype, that's why it's
the golf course is because ofthose, of what it facilitates.
So I 100% agree that thoseaccess to networks are
everything.
And also I think that, relativeto what our resume may look
(14:04):
like, it's talking to people,it's having acquaintances who
can introduce us to otheracquaintances.
That are usually the mostproductive ways.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
often the people who genuinely like other people, and
I think sometimes networkinghas become this schmoozing.
(14:34):
Yes, it's become the schmoozing, this manipulative.
You know back in, oh, I don'tknow back in, oh, I don't know.
Early 2000s, the religiousterminology was leveraging.
You leverage everything youhave for.
God, oh and that came out ofthe corporate world, that came
out of the corporate world andthat you leveraged everything
(14:57):
for God, of course, for yourbenefit, because God would want
you to succeed.
And I think maybe it's much moresimple.
I think when you'reauthentically curious about
other people and when you arewilling to openly invest in
others and develop relationships, you can develop networks that
(15:21):
will benefit you in ways thatthe golf course or leveraging
everything for God won't.
You don't have to manipulateother people in order to benefit
Right, right, and one thing Ithink that's important to point
out is there's many people wholike to brag, and it's a core,
(15:42):
core value of the Anabaptistworld is this idea of community,
and in order to have community,someone has to be the caregiver
, someone has to set up themeals, someone has to be taking
(16:02):
care of others, and the cruelreality is oftentimes that falls
on the women's shoulder andit's unpaid labor.
And to take that even a stepfurther, I think oftentimes
single women are even given moreresponsibility in that aspect.
(16:26):
I have single friends who I'mconstantly horrified by the
stories they tell me about theexpectation that outside people
have in regards to how they willbe caring for their family or
they will be caring fordifferent people, with this
(16:46):
underlying belief that God'sblessing is going to take care
of them in the long run.
And I'm here to tell you, god'sblessing just doesn't come in
the form of a paycheck.
It doesn't for most of us and Ithink it is unfair and it is
cruel for us to expect that fromwomen, and we need to do a
(17:07):
better job of making communitybe something that both men and
women carry, both married andsingle people carry your point
illustrates how, even when thoseof us are out of work, we're
not not working.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
It's just work that doesn't come with a paycheck or
performance reviews ordocumentation of some kind.
It's it's managing things thatare like way more thorny often.
I mean whether that's managingmeals and different dietary
needs, managing doctor'sappointments, sibling dynamics
(17:53):
and those don't go away whenpeople grow up necessarily, and
these folks in these caregivingroles can really carry a
tremendous both physical andemotional burden and weight.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
And to your point, I think, so many times those roles
and even some of the actualjobs you get then come without a
job description, and so itbecomes really difficult when
you're filling out a resume torealize I've been doing this and
I literally don't even have ajob description, like I don't.
(18:29):
Those spots are empty and we'regoing to talk about that more.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Yeah, and how is it that I can have been working so
hard and have nothing to showfor it?
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Yeah, I don't even have a job description Right.
Exactly that has its ownelement of devastation.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
It does, and I just want to say to anyone who is
feeling that let's step back fora minute and before you start
questioning yourself and yourinherent worth and what's wrong
with you, before we go there,let's first think about who's
benefiting from you being inthis role.
Who has benefited, and howmight it also benefit a
(19:08):
potential employer to pretendthat you don't have skills?
They can hire you for a lotless if they can convince you
that you don't have much tooffer, and that's what we're
here to challenge.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Larry Burkett knew what he was talking about.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
He did he did, and I hope that today we can point out
real transferable skills thatfolks in this situation do offer
the paid workforce even if fewemployers are willing to
recognize and fairly pay forthose skills and reframing those
caregiving experiences orwhatever it is that was being
(19:46):
done during that time.
We're using caregivingexperiences here as this kind of
big umbrella term, but findingways to reframe those
experiences as marketable skillscan really showcase your
strengths, and we're going totalk about really concrete tools
and ways to do this.
But just to circle back, eventhough we're talking about this
in terms of resume language,remember, don't get too caught
(20:08):
up on writing the perfect resume.
Your resume will never be done.
We'll keep working on it, keeptinkering on it, tinkering with
it as you go through yourprofessional life.
Here's what's most important toremember you can promote
yourself so much better thanyour resume ever could.
And even when your networks feelvery tenuous because they very
(20:33):
likely are, just remember you'restill much, statistically, much
more likely to find a jobthrough someone who knows
someone, who knows you, someoneyou meet someone you happen to
meet then because of your resumestanding out in the stack.
And that's true if you are 21and on the job market and if you
(20:56):
are 42 or whatever age, you areon the job market.
But the importance of talkingabout these stories, the
importance of talking aboutthese skills and how we are
framing them, is that it canhelp us take assessment of what
our experiences andqualifications are and it can
help us start doing that innerwork to really build that inner
(21:18):
confidence that we do havevaluable talents to offer.
And I think, even for someonewho is maybe deep in the
caregiving trenches right nowbut maybe thinking about a job
search several years from now,there are things you can be
doing now to be preparingyourself for that, to be helping
(21:40):
set yourself up for success, sothat you'll just have more
options, more opportunities downthe road.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
And on the note of networks, while it is
statistically true and I knowit's true that you have a better
job, or invalidated, withinthose networks when you have
(22:13):
your own networks who don't seemto appreciate you or value what
you bring to the table.
That does have its own level ofpain, and it's real, and it's
there, yeah, and I wondersometimes, possibly within tight
communities, if it's not evenworse.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Oh, I'm so glad you brought that up, because we
aren't likely to get a jobthrough a tight connection.
It's the loose connections thatare going to like.
Statistically.
It's the loose connections thatare more likely to help us find
a job someone, an acquaintance,an acquaintance level than
someone that we know closely.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
So if you find yourself within a tight Amish
Mennonite community, yourconnections can actually hurt
you.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Mishmeneite community .
Your connections can actuallyhurt you.
Yeah, and the more productiveconnections will probably be
someone that you like know on anacquaintance level or that you
know.
You know, maybe you see themwhen you go to a store or you
see them at a place of businessor you see them on occasion, but
they're not necessarily close.
That's more likely where you'regoing to find a job than
(23:28):
someone that you are closelyrelated to.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
To a degree, because I think oftentimes the Amish
Mennonite community's golfcourse is church.
So I think men, I think men cantend to find jobs that way and
people with good standing, yeah,but if you're a little bit on
the fringes, I don't think.
(23:52):
I think what you're saying istrue.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Yeah, yeah yeah, I guess it's.
It's to me it's anencouragement to go broad rather
than to focus on the peoplevery close to you, the people
you already know.
If you want to make, it's anencouragement to go beyond that.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Particularly if you're female.
I think that's true, yeah, solet's talk about some of the
typical skills that manycaregivers don't even realize
they already have, or they knowthey have them, but they don't
know how to present the skillsin a positive way.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Right, right, like I think about anybody who has
children who are involved indifferent activities or maybe
involved in their community.
They've got a complicatedweekly family schedule that
they're coordinating and in thebusiness world that's called
logistics and calendarmanagement and it's a real thing
(24:57):
.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
It's a real thing Also, like navigating doctor's
visits and medicines andinsurance claims and helping
others figure that out.
That's health care advocacy andadministrative experience and
we don't think of it that way.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Right.
But understanding how thosesystems work is huge and I think
anyone who has been involved orhas had a family member with a
chronic health condition man youcan get a crash course on the
intricacies of the system andthat's really valuable knowledge
, right.
(25:39):
Moms I know who have beeninvolved in lesson planning and
instructional design and maybeteaching in a co-op situation.
Maybe that's given themexperience working with children
who have special needs or somekind of learning challenges.
(26:00):
All those we're talking aboutextreme patients under pressure.
We're talking about managingmultiple demands, about triaging
demands and deciding what getsyour attention when those are
really really important skillsfor any workplace.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
And those skills, while maybe not done in a
professional sense, can takeeven a stronger sense of
intuition to be able to navigatein those types of settings.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Right?
Is it not just a one-off event,but maybe it's an event, an
annual event or a repeated eventor some kind of organization or
group that you've been a partof over a period of time and
maybe have carried increasingresponsibility for All those
things?
(27:19):
Those experiences can be sovaluable.
Yeah, the conflict resolutionor collaboration between
different organizations maybecompeting organizations being
able to collaborate based onshared interests is well.
For example, it's at the heartof sales, but certainly other,
(27:41):
lots of other professional rolesas well.
So if you're listening andyou're thinking about some of
the skills and the experiencesthat you have had, we want to
invite you to hit pause and justwrite down five things that
you've done consistently or havebeen involved in consistently
(28:02):
over the past few years.
What we mentioned here justbarely scrapes the surface, but
write those things down.
Don't worry about if they soundprofessional or not.
That's beside the point.
These are some things to payattention to.
Is it something that you havedesigned?
Is it something that you haveinstigated?
Is it something that you haveseen, a project that you have
(28:25):
seen through?
Is it something that you'vedone repeatedly?
Is it a project that has grownin scale over time or that has
involved a growing number ofpeople or a growing
responsibility, whatever that is.
Jot down five or more, howevermany come to mind, and then
(28:47):
we'll talk about how you cantranslate those into resume
language, into language that isrelevant to the workplace.
So, if it feels like all you'vedone for the last how many
years is created and maintainedweekly meal plans and grocery
budgets to meet family dietaryneeds.
Well, that's resourcemanagement and you're already
doing the job.
We're just going to help youname it.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
So this is where AI comes in.
We call him Chad, chatty Chad,but yes, yes, we're talking
about the robots and we promisethey can actually be really
helpful.
And I know, I know there's ascary element there, but let's
lean into the helpful part andlearn how to navigate that.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
And the cool thing is that, well, the basic platform
for ChatGPT is free, and there'splenty of others out there too
ChatGPT is the one I'm mostfamiliar with but all it needs
is your email and you can use itfor free.
And I think this is where itcan be really valuable to
(29:52):
understand the limits ofgenerative AI or platforms like
ChatGPT, because all they'redoing is taking vast amounts of
data and essentially predictingwhat word is going to come next,
what word is most likely tocome next about creativity, this
is about, well, it's likemaking writing sound like it's
(30:15):
coming out of an encyclopedia.
When we are wanting to writesomething from the heart,
obviously we're not going to tryto sound like an encyclopedia,
but when we're doing somethingfor a professional setting, then
it might be helpful to know oh,how is this usually said?
And for me that has been sohelpful.
You can kind of put in toChatGPT kind of a rough version
(30:36):
of whatever it is you'rethinking about and saying can
you help me say this in a moreprofessional way?
And ChatGPT will do that.
Does it sound beautiful?
Does it sound creative?
Does it sound is it going towin any awards?
No, but that's the point.
So I think the other thingthat's really important to
remember too is that when we aretrying to reframe skills that
(30:59):
are often not valued, it cankind of come off a little
awkward or wonky, or it cansound as though we're kind of
fluffing up, we're usingelevated language just to sound
smart, and that just comes offas fake, and that's definitely
not what we're here to talkabout.
That's definitely not whatwe're recommending.
(31:20):
The trick that I come back tois to focus on the facts and not
use evaluative language.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
So, instead of using words like good and beautiful
and wonderful and fantastic andthese kinds of evaluative words,
sticking to the facts is a waythat we can show our best work
without either inflating it orcoming off as cocky Right and as
kind of as a side note, whenyou set up your ChetchDBT
(31:50):
account, you can go into youraccount settings and turn off
the setting that allows yourinformation to be fed into the
greater system that offers moreprivacy for you and keeps your
information more secure for youand keeps your information more
(32:20):
secure and, as always, never,ever, give it personal or
identifying information you know.
Be smart about it.
Use it for your benefit, butdon't pretend like chatty Chad
is your best friend.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
That is such good advice and I'll make sure to
drop a link to directions forhow to make those security
settings changes in the shownotes, because that's really
important to remember.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
But as an example of what you could put in as a
prompt.
An example of what you couldput in as a prompt.
You could ask it to rewritethis experience as a resume
bullet Managed household of five, including coordinating medical
appointments, remote schoolschedules and meal prep.
While on a budget.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
And then ChatGPT might come back with something
like oversaw scheduling andlogistics for a multi-person
household, including education,coordination, health care
administration and financialplanning.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Yeah, sounds perfectly legit to me, and it's
not inflating anything, no, butit's just professionally stating
what you've done Exactly.
The great thing is it's notdevaluing it either
(33:53):
no-transcript qualifications.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Yeah, I've really come to appreciate what AI can
do as a tool.
You know, we bring the wisdom,we bring the creativity, we
bring the experience, the values, and what AI can do is help us
format it.
And even that we still have togo back and read it and say,
does this formatting sound likesomething I would say Like, does
(34:21):
this feel authentic to me anddoes it accurately represent
what I'm trying to say?
We can never let the robots doour thinking for us.
We still have to bring thatinsight to whatever it produces.
But as AI is helping us formatit, then what we can do to make
(34:41):
a resume really sing is bringthe details, bring the data, the
numbers that show the scope ofyour experience and really bring
to life what you've done.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Right, and you want to use it like a mirror, not a
mask.
You want it to reflect yourstrengths back to you, but you
don't want to use it to replaceyour voice.
And the interesting thing Ifound when I was putting out a
bunch of resumes was a lot ofthese companies if not all of
(35:14):
them would ask you if it wasokay to feed your resume to AI.
So they're doing it on theother side too.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Yeah, I've been reading about this and I'm glad
you brought that up, because Iwas reading about a case study
where an employer was feedingresumes into AI and somebody who
was incredibly qualified for aposition got passed over because
(35:45):
of a pattern that it wasirrelevant to the situation, but
it was a pattern that AI hadpicked up on.
It was irrelevant to thesituation, but it was a pattern
that AI had picked up on andsince AI is training itself, it
had come to rely on that pattern, even though it was not
relevant, and in that situation,the person had called and
(36:05):
talked to a real person and saidhey, you know, I don't
understand what's going on here,and the person ended up getting
the job after all.
So I think this is just anotherreason why we can't rely on a
resume to get a job that's thebest fit for us, necessarily.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
But I think it's a tight, tight rope that you're
walking on, because I askedsomeone about a resume I sent
and I think I offended thatperson.
So I think right now it's justreally difficult.
It's really difficult.
Do I use AI?
(36:43):
Do I not use AI?
Am I going to be criticized forusing it, or am I going to be
criticized because I'm notkeeping up with technology and
refusing to use it?
Do I approach my networkregarding the job I applied for,
or will it be seen as offensiveif I do?
And here's the lesson I've beentrying to learn from it.
(37:07):
I think it's important, at theend of the day, that we do what
we know to do.
I think it's important, at theend of the day, that we do what
we know to do.
We are allowed to make mistakes.
We are allowed to even beperceived as making mistakes,
whether or not it was a mistake.
We're allowed to do that andthe person I think I offended
it's okay, it wasn't the job forme, but I think we have to be
(37:28):
really careful about latching onto formulas, or this is what
worked for this person as aguarantee that it's also going
to work for us.
I think the professional worldlikes to have these stories of
this person did this and thisand this and look at what
(37:48):
happened.
This and this and look at whathappened, but they don't talk
about the stories where someoneused the connections that were
available to them and itbackfired.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Oh, absolutely Absolutely.
I remember when I was applyingfor my current job.
I remember I lost count after Iput out like 90 applications.
I kind of quit counting afterthat.
And I remember going into thatseason of job hunting, looking
for the hack, looking for, youknow, looking for secret and
(38:22):
reading, you know the tea leaves, you know.
And I came away from thatexperience with just a belief,
stronger than ever, that youjust some things you just can't
hack.
You just you do the best youcan and I love what you say
about make mistakes.
That's how we learn, andanybody who shames you for that
is not your person.
(38:42):
And you do the best you canwith what you've got available
and that's all, that's all wecan do.
And and you're right, there areno, there are no formulas, and
that's all, that's all we can do.
And you're right, there are noformulas, even though formulas
sell a lot of self-help books.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Right, right, right right.
There are none.
You follow God's will, and thenyou have to wrestle with the
idea of so what if God doesn'treally care about where I work?
Maybe that's not, maybe hedoesn't have this perfect plan
for me, and so you're kind ofwrestling your way through that,
and I think it's easy for usthen to want to come up with the
(39:29):
perfect network or the perfectchat GBT script, or the perfect
network or the perfect chat gbtscript or the perfect, you know
whatever version of god's willthat we can tap into to
guarantee results, when thetruth of it is, we are human and
human, and the other side ishuman too, and humans are messy.
(39:51):
Humans have all kinds of biasesand preconceived ideas of what
they think they need, and moreand more and I don't mean to be
sacrilegious when I say this,but more and more.
I think it is just about doingwhat you know the next right
thing to be, the right nextthing to do, and following that
(40:15):
path wherever it might be.
I think only a few people get tohave the perfect notion of
career, and more and more I'vebeen trying to decide if perhaps
we have been encouraged to makecareer this pivotal part of our
(40:40):
lives, when maybe career isjust a way to pay the bills.
I don't have to love it, Idon't have to hate it, I can
show up, I can make my money, Ican leave, and can I just be
okay with that?
Do employers want us to love itand sink our very being into it
(41:00):
so that we over give?
And I don't know the answers,but it's certainly something
I've been thinking about.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
I'm pretty sure about that.
Yeah, that saying, if you dowork you love, no, what is it?
If you find a job you love,you'll never work a day in your
life.
No, that is that's no, oh, forall the F's sakes like seriously
, no, no, no, no, no, okay, no,no, no no.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
Yeah, so let's have a real moment.
Naomi, what would you say tosomeone who's sitting there
thinking is it too late for me?
Speaker 1 (41:34):
to someone who's sitting there thinking is it too
late for me?
What's interesting to me is howthis sense can hit us at any
age.
I remember being 21.
I had left my Amish Mennonitecommunity with no clear path
ahead and I really thoughtcollege had already passed me by
and by the time I was 25, I wasa little bit wiser and could
(41:55):
begin to imagine what that pathcould look like.
But you know, sometimes my lifefeels like it's just been a
series of pivots where I wasalways the newbie and where I am
right now for once.
For once, I'm not the obviousnewbie and boy.
It is a nice feeling.
(42:15):
There's a reason we don't wantto be the newbie.
Even when I now see how young Iwas at the time and how
adorable 21-year-old me wasthinking that I had missed my
window for college, I know thatthose feelings can be so real
(42:36):
and that we can feel them at anyage.
I can feel like it's too late.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
For sure, and I think maybe for those of us who come
from more isolated communitiesand grew up a little bit more
sheltered, not so familiar withpop culture, we can always feel
like we're catching up.
We're just playing thisconstant game of catching up.
There was an element of whatthe heck when I started college
in my 40s and I was sitting nextto high school kids in a dual
(43:05):
enrollment class and, yeah, Ifelt like a fish out of water.
But even more than that, therewas this element of the world
doesn't have a place for me.
And now I just recently starteda new job doing something I
have been doing my whole damnlife and I'm still being treated
(43:29):
as a newbie.
The training process doesn'tend and there's one side of me
who knows, you know, this is,this, is part of starting
something new.
This is this is, this is whathappens.
But I think there's alsoanother side of me who
understands that.
I think part of the workforcewants you to feel that way.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
Once you just feel like you don't quite belong.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
The system does.
The system benefits from thatfeeling.
So I also think we need tolearn you use the word pivot,
which I think is a perfect word,but I also think we need to
learn to keep advocating forourselves.
And I mean, guys, I'm 50 and Ijust started a new job and I'm
(44:16):
asking how in the heck did I notknow to ask this question?
How did I not know to ask howlong does this training quote,
training process last, and howcan it be that I am 50?
This is not a rocket sciencejob and I am being treated as if
I've never done this before.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
I think.
Well, you know, this is justone more reason why the job
market can be such asoul-sucking place.
It is soul-sucking, and I thinkit's prudent to be aware of the
different schemes that employersare using to take advantage of
(44:58):
the desperation that people feelfor good jobs.
I mean, I even I'm thinking ofhearing about situations in like
computer engineering kinds ofjobs or computer coding kinds of
jobs, where they are askingcandidates, job candidates, to
do projects for them and thenthey're taking the work you know
(45:21):
and this person's not gettingthe job.
And that's just one example.
This happens in plenty of otherfields too, more and more, and
it's a way of squeezing unpaidlabor out of workers.
And this is what happens whenwe don't have unions.
This is what happens when thebalance of power has shifted so
(45:41):
far to the side of employers.
And the number of scams that areout there on you know some of
the big websites where they willpresent something as a training
and then it turns out it'sthere's no job, or you know
there's.
You know some, some, some majorcatch the the.
(46:02):
The whole gamut from outrightscams to scammy behavior, to
simply exploitative behavior,you know, is out there, and I
think it's prudent to be awareof it and to realize that it's
important to do the next rightthing and to know when it's time
to cut our losses and go lookfor another place or go look for
(46:23):
another option.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
Right and I think, understanding that sometimes it
can be a little bit between ahazing experience and a dog
fight, may the toughest soul win.
Knowing when to stay, when towalk, when to speak up, when to
stay silent, when to addresswhat you're seeing, when to just
(46:47):
see what you're seeing and knowwhat you're seeing.
You're seeing and know whatyou're seeing All of that is so
difficult and more and more Iembrace the value of trusting
your instincts, trusting yourgut and even if you are wrong,
(47:07):
so what it was your mistake tomake?
You learn from it.
You deal with the consequences,you move on.
And I think this goes back tothis whole idea of God's will,
because if you're living inGod's will, then things won't go
wrong, you won't suffer, youwon't face disaster.
And it's bogus, it's a mindfuck that's hard to get out of.
(47:31):
We have to understand thatmaking mistakes is part of
living and we are not exemptfrom getting it wrong, and we
just need to keep moving forward.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
I know we said we don't have any hacks or any
magic solutions, but I think ifthere is any hack to take away
from today, that's it.
I snap, snap, snap, and I thinkthis is also why it's such an
internal project.
This is about internal work andit's that internal work that
(48:06):
gives us the confidence to takeup space, to take up oxygen,
even if we make mistakes,because guess what that's life.
We all deserve to have ourneeds met and the trick is to
believe that and follow throughon that while still believing
the same for others too.
And often I think we've foundmany of us especially as those
(48:30):
of us socialized, as women, asgirls, have been encouraged to
practice self-reflection,self-awareness, and it's not
just women and girls, butcertainly I think we get more
conscious encouragement to dothat.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
We get a double portion of encouragement.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
There you go, there you go To practice
self-reflection, self-awareness,but with that double portion
can come an awareness of all wedon't know, and so we can make
the mistake.
It's really easy to make themistake of focusing on what we
don't know then rather on whatwe do, and then self-doubt can
really hold us back.
And I think that's important torecognize when we are entering
(49:15):
some new phase of life or a worksituation to be confident in
what we do know rather thanbeing consumed by what we don't
know.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
Right and I think it's important to point out
those of us who have donecaregiving whether it is taking
care of families, taking care ofaging parents we have grit, we
have creativity and that isreally what we need, that's what
the world needs, and if we takethat and hang on to that,
(49:49):
rather than letting otherpeople's overconfidence make us
question ourselves, like I think, sometimes I see people
behaving in this very confidentmanner and I just think, wow, I
want a portion of that.
And it's easy to doubt yourselfand it's easy to let other
(50:16):
people undermine ouraccomplishments.
But I think it circles backaround to us doing our internal
work and valuing what we bringto the table and insisting that
that gets recognized and valuedas well.
Speaker 1 (50:36):
Right, and it's important to recognize that when
people do undermine ouraccomplishments, it can often be
about they're feelingthreatened, or it can be that
they just don't want to pay youwhat you're worth.
There can be so many otherthings going on there, and I
think it can be really importantto be aware of what else is
(51:01):
going on and why they might notwant to acknowledge what we do
bring to the table.
And because of this I thinkit's so important, especially
those of us who have beenconsumed with caregiving.
It's easy to either fall intothe track of either thinking
about our own needs andconveniences or to only think
(51:21):
about others' needs andconveniences, and I think it's
really important for us to bringto be conscious of our needs
and conveniences and to advocatefor them, while also
acknowledging those of others.
And it's that mutuality that iswhere we find that self-respect
(51:43):
, mutual respect, those reallyhealthy relational dynamics.
Speaker 2 (51:48):
Right, because the beauty really does exist in
holding both.
The beauty exists in ensuringthat everyone gets oxygen,
because we all do need that.
Speaker 1 (51:59):
Right and apologizing is something that you've talked
about as something you'vereally noticed.
Can you say more about?
Speaker 2 (52:06):
that.
So something I've beenobserving at work is how often
females come in and apologize.
Females come in and apologize.
I've been just noticing it inthe language that gets used and
I've realized how often that ispart of our vocabulary Like
(52:29):
almost knee jerk, yeah, and menrarely do.
Men rarely come into the wineryand apologize for needing
something or make an apologywithin their request.
They can be very respectful andvery kind in what they request,
but men rarely make a requestand then apologize for it.
(52:50):
And something I've beenpracticing is so if someone has
to wait because you know I getstuck doing something else and I
can't immediately serve them atthe bar, whatever the case is,
instead of saying, oh, I am sosorry to keep you waiting, I
will say thank you so much foryour patience.
(53:11):
How can I help you?
And I love that verbiage.
All of a sudden it switches thenotion of good behavior to them
, like that's theirresponsibility, but it
recognizes their good behavior,shows appreciation for it, and
then we get to business and I'vekind of taken to encouraging
(53:36):
the women who come in andapologize.
I've started encouraging themnot to apologize, and I think
it's something we really need tothink about, and there's
websites that you can go to this.
You can go to find more ideasregarding this.
But instead of saying sorry,there's so many different
(53:59):
phrases we can use.
I appreciate your flexibility.
Sure, I will take care of that.
I will help you find a solution.
I apologize for inconveniencesthat that might have caused.
Let's find a way to moveforward.
How can I make this right foryou?
What if we just say may I havea moment of your time, instead
(54:20):
of saying I'm so sorry, I needyour time at this moment, or
whatever, may I have a moment ofyour time?
Something else I've been really,really focusing on is just
simply saying if someone sayssomething crude or disrespectful
or something that I'm just likehuh, instead of me taking the
(54:41):
emotional energy and trying tofigure it out.
I love saying I don't know whatyou meant by that.
Can you say more?
Make them explain their ownbullshit.
It is so freeing, it is soliberating, because I do think
sometimes people use flat outbullshit as a way to deter you,
(55:04):
and then I will spend the nextweek trying to figure out what
that person meant, when I couldhave just made them explain
themselves on the spot.
It is one of the most freeingthings I have done.
I love that.
That's so.
That's so huge.
I wish I had learned this whenI was 20.
Right, and another thing that Ithink is important to say is I
(55:37):
can see this is upsettingst orconcern, but I don't necessarily
have to apologize for theirconcern.
Something I think we need toquit saying and I'm sure it
started out well-intentioned butwe need to quit saying I'm
sorry you feel that way.
Like, can we take a moment andtalk about that?
I feel like that is sodismissive.
Speaker 1 (55:57):
It's become a passive aggressive code, for that's
your problem.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (56:04):
Yeah, and I think people use it when they have
done real harm and they don'twant to acknowledge it.
Yeah, it has been used, I think, too often in that type of
situation and I would love tostart a campaign that we quit
using that phrase.
Well, I'm right there with you.
Speaker 1 (56:24):
I agree.
The takeaway for this is thatwhen we have a name for what
we're seeing, when we'reconscious of our options in
these situations, we have morepower to choose how we want to
respond, and I love this listthat you've shared here of
alternatives to I'm sorry,because I think that it just it
(56:45):
elevates the conversation andit's it's not just about self
elevation, but it you know, asyou pointed out, it it also
dignifies the people that we'reinteracting with as well.
I'm going to drop a couple ofresources in the show notes that
have been really helpful for me.
One is how to write a BIFresponse.
That's an acronym for brief,informative, friendly and firm,
(57:10):
and this is specificallytailored for potentially high
conflict situations, but I thinkthis can be really helpful even
for places where it's not highconflict, but what we're needing
to communicate effectively.
Also, deborah Tannen has donesome insightful research on
gendered language patterns, andif anyone is interested in doing
(57:32):
a deeper dive on that, we'lllink to some of her work in the
show notes as well.
It's really interesting to linkto some of her work in the show
notes as well.
It's really interesting to seehow some of these patterns
manifest themselves in ourlanguage as well, and while
changing the way we talk aboutthings is not a magic fix, it
can be a step in bringing morejustice to the world.
Speaker 2 (57:54):
I think you are like the most brilliant person I know
regarding resources and thistype of thing has been so
helpful because, of course, ittakes time to change the
narratives and you know thescripts we use.
But just the relief of havingvocabulary for what you see
(58:21):
happening I think is soimportant and I know resources
like that have helped me so muchBecause it's like, oh, I'm not
crazy Other people say this too.
Speaker 1 (58:33):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I agree.
They have been so helpful to metoo, and I'm happy to pass them
along.
So, when we think back overwhat we've been talking about
here today, we want to leave youwith three specific, three
concrete things you can do thisweek if you're thinking about
re-entering or entering theworkforce, or pivoting careers
(58:55):
or making a big change.
First of all, write down thatlist of weekly responsibilities,
past or present, and label thekind of real skill that each one
represents.
Speaker 2 (59:08):
And you know, I think sometimes these skills are
skills that we don't even thinkabout.
Like I think it's easy tobelieve that it's just normal,
but when I was working on myresume, it's easy to believe
that it's just normal, but whenI was working on my resume, I
realized that, oh, I hadnegotiated with my insurance
company to pay for services thatwere being offered at my
(59:29):
child's school, services thatthey would cover when you went
to the office, but not when theycame to the school.
I had been told, by three menactually, that I wouldn't get
them to change.
And guess what I did?
That is no small feat, but Inever considered putting that on
(59:49):
my resume.
Speaker 1 (59:51):
Right.
Speaker 2 (59:52):
And I know there's those of you who've, for past 20
years, have been teachingSunday school classes, bible
studies, homeschool, co-opclasses.
That is a skill and I think, askill that should be appreciated
and valued.
Speaker 1 (01:00:10):
And what it demonstrates is consistency.
It demonstrates persistence, itdemonstrates responsibility.
It demonstrates that you cansee a project through that you
can grow it, you can develop it,that you can be dependent on to
show up.
Those are the kinds ofqualities that are so
(01:00:35):
desperately needed.
Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
Right, and something else that you helped me see that
I didn't even realize was agood skill was for over 15 years
I coordinated an annual salesevent that attracted 250 people
every year.
I am sure we netted over$10,000 per event.
I had to work with the public.
(01:00:57):
I had to work with hotels.
I had to work with event.
I had to work with the public.
I had to work with hotels.
I had to work with advertising.
I had to work with vendors andit was something I did and I
developed over the years, but Ididn't think about it being
something that was noteworthy toput on a resume because I
personally didn't necessarilysee it as career or professional
(01:01:23):
.
Speaker 1 (01:01:25):
Yeah, and I think it's yeah.
We're educating employers, Ithink as much as anyone, as much
as the internal self-talk, butthey don't know this if we don't
tell them.
Correct internal self-talk, butthey don't know this if we
don't tell them.
So once you've got that listand you're not limited to five
things, but if you can come upwith five things, that's good,
that's a good starting pointPaste it into a generative AI
(01:01:48):
tool like ChatGPT and ask it torewrite this as professional
resume bullets and play aroundwith prompts Like don't just
take the first thing that comes,but see what, see what it says
and see what ideas it generatesfor you and how you might want
to expand on some things, how itmight generate ideas of other
(01:02:09):
things you've done that youforgot to mention.
You can also say just write outyour situation in a paragraph
along with all your concerns.
You know both your strengths,the challenges, the requirements
.
You know this job has to bewithin walking distance or
whatever, or has to happenbetween school hours or whatever
(01:02:30):
, whatever those factors arethat are really critical for you
.
Just write it all out and askchatGPT to help you brainstorm
possible career suggestions.
I mean, there could bewonderful job opportunities for
you out there that you've noteven considered, and I think
that's where this can be reallyhelpful in coming up with ideas.
(01:02:51):
But then, as always, bottomline, don't take Chat GPT
suggestions as the gospel truth,but really sit with them and
think about how they sit withyou.
Only use what feels authenticto you.
And remember you're not lookingfor chat GPT to turn your
resume into the ideal resume,because that's not a thing.
(01:03:12):
You're looking for a job thatvalues you for who you are, for
you what you truly offer, notfor a pretend version of you.
So so be that authentic self.
Speaker 2 (01:03:26):
And you know, I think to be that authentic self, we
really have to dive into our owninternal work and that's
probably one of the harderthings to do.
And speaking of difficultthings to do, number three on
the list was most difficult forme.
Sharing those results from chatGBT with someone else was
(01:03:52):
difficult for me, whether it's afriend, a mentor, a career
coach.
I think we need to find someoneto share that with or a career
coach.
I think we need to find someoneto share that with and let
those people remind you also ofyour value.
Let them speak into what chatGPT recognized or maybe missed.
Allow them to bring the humanelement to your resume.
(01:04:18):
And I think we should have anote of caution here.
Be careful when you talk tosomeone else.
It's important that you are metwith curiosity and belief.
If someone is dismissive, it'sa reflection of them.
It's not a reflection of you.
Keep looking, find anothermentor, find another friend,
(01:04:38):
find someone who believes in youand is both encouraging and
also offers valuable feedback.
I don't think any of us wantencouragement without feedback.
Speaker 1 (01:04:49):
And we'll drop some links in the show notes for
other AI prompts for resumeworkshops, resources for folks
making career pivots in midlife.
I'll also include a link to aGoogle Doc that I created for my
students who are looking intodigital writing jobs, and so
(01:05:14):
this is an example of how maybethere's a field that you're
interested in, and these arequestions that you can use to do
some research and find out yeah, what is what's that field like
?
What's that job like?
What's that?
What are the opportunities, thegrowth opportunities?
What kind of qualifications arerequired?
(01:05:34):
What kind of background doessomeone typically have?
Vacations are required.
What kind of background doessomeone typically have?
So that's another way that youcan explore and find ideas and
kind of let that help you asyour professional identity
evolves.
The most important thing toremember is that you're not too
late.
Whether you're 21 or 61, you'renot too late.
(01:05:56):
You're right on time.
While the things that youdidn't have whether that's
formal education or a job withgrowth opportunities, whatever
it might be that you didn't haveremember, though you do have
experience.
Let's find a way to make themost of that experience.
(01:06:17):
Don't let anyone tell you thatexperience doesn't matter.
It does.
Speaker 2 (01:06:21):
You're right on time so if this episode has helped
you reframe your story or howyou see your history, please
send it to someone else whomight need that same reminder
today if you're one of the manyof us who are thinking about
making a big change or figuringout what's next, we'd love to
hear from you.
Speaker 1 (01:06:42):
We'd love to know what topics you'd like to hear
more about in future episodes.
We are not professional careercoaches, but we love to talk
about our own experiences and welove to share the resources
that we found helpful, and we'dlove to know how we can be a
voice of encouragement, becausewe know how discouraging, we
(01:07:02):
know how difficult, howchallenging these kinds of
changes can be.
Speaker 2 (01:07:07):
So, until next time, remember that your story isn't
behind you.
It is always unfolding and weare here cheering you on.
Speaker 1 (01:07:16):
We'll see you next time.
Speaker 2 (01:07:27):
Thank you for spending time with us today.
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 1 (01:07:37):
What are your thoughts about college and
recovery from high demandreligion?
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences, and
we wanna talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atuncoveredlifebeyondatgmailcom.
That'suncoveredlifebeyondatgmailcom.
Speaker 2 (01:07:56):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode.
Speaker 1 (01:08:09):
Until next time stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward.
This is Rebecca and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path Along the
way, we've uncovered a fewinsights we want to share with
fellow travelers.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up, we are here to cheeryou on and assure you that the
best is yet to come.
Welcome to Uncovered LifeBeyond.
Hello everyone, Welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.
(01:08):
This is Naomi.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
And this is Rebecca.
So today we're just going tokind of dive in and talk about a
big subject.
I know this is conversationsthat, naomi, you've had with
other women and something I'vebeen personally looking at quite
a bit, and it's this wholething of a resume and, to be
(01:32):
fair, oftentimes it's more aboutlooking at a blank piece of
paper where we think a resumeshould be and having this
feeling that maybe I personallydon't have any real marketable
skills and I want to work and Iwant to have a job, but what is
(01:52):
it that I can even do?
Speaker 1 (01:54):
So many of us have been there, and this episode is
for the person who maybe hasnever had an official job title,
maybe they're not even surewhat respect for their work
feels like, and they're going.
How am I ever going to get ajob that supports me?
How am I ever going to get ajob that's respected and that I
(02:17):
can feel good about?
And I hope this episode will bea warm blanket on a cold day or
, since we're right now in theheat of summer, maybe it'll be
more like jumping into a pool ofcool water on a sweltering hot
day.
When I've been in this kind ofsituation, the image that's come
(02:38):
to mind for me is that I'mstanding on the brink of this
huge chasm and on the other sideof this chasm is that ideal job
that's going to give mefinancial security and it's
going to be satisfying andmeaningful and all these things,
and I'm desperate to get therebecause I really need that.
And also I look at that, allthat space between me and the
(03:02):
other side, and wonder how inthe world I'm ever going to get
there, and it can feel sohopeless.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
It can feel so hopeless and you know, maybe the
reality is we haven't beengiven good skills to bridge that
chasm and maybe the other sideis a bit of an illusion as well,
and I think for many of usillusion as well, and I think
for many of us we've spent a lotof time in the work of
(03:28):
caregiving, or maybe we steppedaway from work because of
illness or burnout or maybe abig move.
There's so many things and whenyou take that and combine that
with a lack of a formaleducation or even paid work,
(03:52):
it's really difficult to definewho you are from a professional
setting.
And I think about the ways manyof us were even encouraged to
work, probably more female thanour male counterparts, but we
were encouraged to work for freeand trust the Lord to bless us.
(04:13):
And I think for people who'veexperienced that side of it too,
it really becomes thisdifficult and not just a
difficult process to workthrough.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
It's not just the difficulty in writing a resume
that an employer is going to beimpressed by, but it's the
emotional side of what's goingon inside us too.
Yeah, yeah, so true, so true.
So today, I think our goal isto bust the myth that someone
(04:48):
who is in this situation doesn'thave marketable skills or that
their skills have expired.
And this is while also sayingthis, is also acknowledging that
conventionally, gaps on aresume do invite questions, and
obviously there are some jobsthat require formal training or
certification.
So we're not here to say, hey,you can actually do whatever you
(05:10):
want to do, because we knowthat that's not realistic either
.
But we are here to say that wethink this chasm that stands
between us and a rewarding jobis more about how society
devalues women's work, how ittakes away any bridges to cross
(05:31):
that chasm, or the boats or theferries to cross the chasm.
And it's more about how societydevalues women's work than it is
about the actual value of whatwe have to offer.
And we think it's more abouthow women are often denied those
tools or discouraged frompursuing those tools early in
(05:52):
life.
And that's really that is thebigger problem than what is or
isn't on our resume.
And since this is not just anindividual issue, it's not just
a matter of an individual'sunique choices.
It's about how we function as asociety, as a system within a
society.
This is an important messagefor employers too.
(06:13):
This is an important messagefor people who are doing the
interviewing, and our messagefor you is please, please,
please, don't assume that aperson's resume is the sum total
of who they are.
Consider that your organizationmight be missing out on
incredible talent for yourbusiness when you overlook
someone who has some gaps intheir resume or their resume
(06:35):
doesn't exactly fit the criteriaof what you might expect to see
.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Right, right.
You know I have often observedthat it's easy to say that you
value stay-at-home moms or thatyou value diversity, until it
affects you personally, and thenit becomes more difficult to
actually put that into practice.
(07:01):
And I think this is such aamazing way for people in power
to show and to actually livetheir values.
Many employers or many peoplein power would say they've
benefited from having astay-at-home wife or mother to
(07:24):
either raise you or support youas a professional.
Women joke among themselvesthat we all want a wife, and
this is such an incredible wayto actually live what you say
you believe.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
When I think about this, I think of a situation I
once witnessed where a ministerand he was a nice guy, he was a
nice guy was talking.
This person no longer had childcare, child child care
(08:06):
responsibilities at this pointanymore.
But that was held against them,and this was a nice person who
was doing this.
This was not some kind ofhorrible bigot.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
True and like locally here and again.
This was a pastor who has areally big organization publicly
said that you have to becareful about hiring young women
because they just get marriedand have babies about the time
you get done training them.
Sexism is alive and well.
Yeah, and it's such a demeaningway to look at not just women
(08:43):
but teenagers and young girls.
And we say we value marriage,we say we value motherhood, but
do we really Not?
When it costs us something, wewant it to benefit us.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
And speaking of costing something or going
against the grain, I think anyemployer that really takes this
to heart can see this as anopportunity to exercise that
growth mindset and to beperceived as a leader in the
community, and I think that's ahuge opportunity for someone who
(09:18):
wants to live out their valuesin this way.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
For sure, and it takes an incredible amount of
emotional intelligence to knowand to understand that we don't
all start out on third base oreven second base, and this is
such a brilliant way to makesure that everyone gets a chance
and that we don't have peoplewho end up needing to rely on
(09:44):
welfare.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Absolutely.
And on top of all this, this isalso an invitation to these
employers to have the integrityto pay a fair day's wage for a
fair day's work, regardless ofgender.
I'll always remember I believeit was Larry Burkett and he was
kind of the.
He's long gone now, but he waskind of the Dave Ramsey before.
Dave Ramsey was Dave Ramsey.
(10:06):
This is kind of one of thoseweird things.
Why did this stick with me?
I don't know, but I rememberhim saying that when his
organization needed to hiresecretarial staff,
administrative staff, he hired abunch of stay-at-home moms or
formerly stay-at-home momsbecause they needed flexibility
and he was willing to give themthe flexibility and also they
(10:27):
accepted lower wages and he wasproud of this.
He thought that was a goodthing.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
And he taught that as a model of how to run a
business.
I mean, Larry Burkett was likethe early financial guru guy and
I don't think I will understandhow exploiting someone else for
your benefit is consideredleadership, and not just
(10:52):
leadership, but Christianleadership.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Yeah, unless exploitation is a feature, not a
bug.
But I guess that's a soapboxfor another day.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
But I guess that's a soapbox for another day.
Yeah, all that being said, ourgoal today is to help you spot
the skills you do have and howto use tools like generative AI
to help you tell your story andto understand who you are with
confidence.
(11:24):
And I know, I know AI soundsscary.
But hear us out.
And, in addition to that,remember we don't have any
magical solutions.
We're not Mary Poppins, we'renot going to pull the perfect
job out of our bag, but we wantto point out ways to help you
understand what you're seeingLike.
(11:46):
Sometimes I think we see things, but it's really difficult to
name what we're seeing, and wewant to help you do that.
And we also want to help yourecognize the power that you do
have and how to hold that powerand use it to benefit you.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
So our first segment is about the resume gap trap,
and, before we talk aboutcomposing the resume itself, I
think it's important to make afew caveats.
First of all, resumes get a lotof attention because they are a
foundational part of ourprofessional identity and also
(12:28):
it's one of the few things underour control, and because of
these reasons, it's easy toobsess over it, and I think it's
really important not to takethis episode here today or
conversation here today assaying as encouraging anyone to
obsess over their resume.
It is an important tool, butit's just one tool.
(12:48):
It's way more important to workwithin a network, to be able to
talk about our qualificationsin a relevant way, and so in
that way, the resume is more atool to help prepare us for the
workforce rather than as amagical document that's going to
just, you know, open doors.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Right and I think it's fair to point out.
For many of us who werestay-at-home moms were involved
in caregiving our networksaren't going to be the same as
those who are out on the golfcourse, and I think, while
networks are important, it canalso produce feelings of shame
(13:35):
because you feel like you aren'tconnected enough.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
And you probably aren't.
I mean, that's the point youmake about the golf course is so
true.
That's why the golf course isthe stereotype, that's why it's
the golf course is because ofthose, of what it facilitates.
So I 100% agree that thoseaccess to networks are
everything.
And also I think that, relativeto what our resume may look
(14:04):
like, it's talking to people,it's having acquaintances who
can introduce us to otheracquaintances.
That are usually the mostproductive ways.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
often the people who genuinely like other people, and
I think sometimes networkinghas become this schmoozing.
(14:34):
Yes, it's become the schmoozing, this manipulative.
You know back in, oh, I don'tknow back in, oh, I don't know.
Early 2000s, the religiousterminology was leveraging.
You leverage everything youhave for.
God, oh and that came out ofthe corporate world, that came
out of the corporate world andthat you leveraged everything
(14:57):
for God, of course, for yourbenefit, because God would want
you to succeed.
And I think maybe it's much moresimple.
I think when you'reauthentically curious about
other people and when you arewilling to openly invest in
others and develop relationships, you can develop networks that
(15:21):
will benefit you in ways thatthe golf course or leveraging
everything for God won't.
You don't have to manipulateother people in order to benefit
Right, right, and one thing Ithink that's important to point
out is there's many people wholike to brag, and it's a core,
(15:42):
core value of the Anabaptistworld is this idea of community,
and in order to have community,someone has to be the caregiver
, someone has to set up themeals, someone has to be taking
(16:02):
care of others, and the cruelreality is oftentimes that falls
on the women's shoulder andit's unpaid labor.
And to take that even a stepfurther, I think oftentimes
single women are even given moreresponsibility in that aspect.
(16:26):
I have single friends who I'mconstantly horrified by the
stories they tell me about theexpectation that outside people
have in regards to how they willbe caring for their family or
they will be caring fordifferent people, with this
(16:46):
underlying belief that God'sblessing is going to take care
of them in the long run.
And I'm here to tell you, god'sblessing just doesn't come in
the form of a paycheck.
It doesn't for most of us and Ithink it is unfair and it is
cruel for us to expect that fromwomen, and we need to do a
(17:07):
better job of making communitybe something that both men and
women carry, both married andsingle people carry your point
illustrates how, even when thoseof us are out of work, we're
not not working.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
It's just work that doesn't come with a paycheck or
performance reviews ordocumentation of some kind.
It's it's managing things thatare like way more thorny often.
I mean whether that's managingmeals and different dietary
needs, managing doctor'sappointments, sibling dynamics
(17:53):
and those don't go away whenpeople grow up necessarily, and
these folks in these caregivingroles can really carry a
tremendous both physical andemotional burden and weight.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
And to your point, I think, so many times those roles
and even some of the actualjobs you get then come without a
job description, and so itbecomes really difficult when
you're filling out a resume torealize I've been doing this and
I literally don't even have ajob description, like I don't.
(18:29):
Those spots are empty and we'regoing to talk about that more.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Yeah, and how is it that I can have been working so
hard and have nothing to showfor it?
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Yeah, I don't even have a job description Right.
Exactly that has its ownelement of devastation.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
It does, and I just want to say to anyone who is
feeling that let's step back fora minute and before you start
questioning yourself and yourinherent worth and what's wrong
with you, before we go there,let's first think about who's
benefiting from you being inthis role.
Who has benefited, and howmight it also benefit a
(19:08):
potential employer to pretendthat you don't have skills?
They can hire you for a lotless if they can convince you
that you don't have much tooffer, and that's what we're
here to challenge.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Larry Burkett knew what he was talking about.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
He did he did, and I hope that today we can point out
real transferable skills thatfolks in this situation do offer
the paid workforce even if fewemployers are willing to
recognize and fairly pay forthose skills and reframing those
caregiving experiences orwhatever it is that was being
(19:46):
done during that time.
We're using caregivingexperiences here as this kind of
big umbrella term, but findingways to reframe those
experiences as marketable skillscan really showcase your
strengths, and we're going totalk about really concrete tools
and ways to do this.
But just to circle back, eventhough we're talking about this
in terms of resume language,remember, don't get too caught
(20:08):
up on writing the perfect resume.
Your resume will never be done.
We'll keep working on it, keeptinkering on it, tinkering with
it as you go through yourprofessional life.
Here's what's most important toremember you can promote
yourself so much better thanyour resume ever could.
And even when your networks feelvery tenuous because they very
(20:33):
likely are, just remember you'restill much, statistically, much
more likely to find a jobthrough someone who knows
someone, who knows you, someoneyou meet someone you happen to
meet then because of your resumestanding out in the stack.
And that's true if you are 21and on the job market and if you
(20:56):
are 42 or whatever age, you areon the job market.
But the importance of talkingabout these stories, the
importance of talking aboutthese skills and how we are
framing them, is that it canhelp us take assessment of what
our experiences andqualifications are and it can
help us start doing that innerwork to really build that inner
(21:18):
confidence that we do havevaluable talents to offer.
And I think, even for someonewho is maybe deep in the
caregiving trenches right nowbut maybe thinking about a job
search several years from now,there are things you can be
doing now to be preparingyourself for that, to be helping
(21:40):
set yourself up for success, sothat you'll just have more
options, more opportunities downthe road.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
And on the note of networks, while it is
statistically true and I knowit's true that you have a better
job, or invalidated, withinthose networks when you have
(22:13):
your own networks who don't seemto appreciate you or value what
you bring to the table.
That does have its own level ofpain, and it's real, and it's
there, yeah, and I wondersometimes, possibly within tight
communities, if it's not evenworse.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
Oh, I'm so glad you brought that up, because we
aren't likely to get a jobthrough a tight connection.
It's the loose connections thatare going to like.
Statistically.
It's the loose connections thatare more likely to help us find
a job someone, an acquaintance,an acquaintance level than
someone that we know closely.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
So if you find yourself within a tight Amish
Mennonite community, yourconnections can actually hurt
you.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Mishmeneite community .
Your connections can actuallyhurt you.
Yeah, and the more productiveconnections will probably be
someone that you like know on anacquaintance level or that you
know.
You know, maybe you see themwhen you go to a store or you
see them at a place of businessor you see them on occasion, but
they're not necessarily close.
That's more likely where you'regoing to find a job than
(23:28):
someone that you are closelyrelated to.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
To a degree, because I think oftentimes the Amish
Mennonite community's golfcourse is church.
So I think men, I think men cantend to find jobs that way and
people with good standing, yeah,but if you're a little bit on
the fringes, I don't think.
(23:52):
I think what you're saying istrue.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Yeah, yeah yeah, I guess it's.
It's to me it's anencouragement to go broad rather
than to focus on the peoplevery close to you, the people
you already know.
If you want to make, it's anencouragement to go beyond that.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Particularly if you're female.
I think that's true, yeah, solet's talk about some of the
typical skills that manycaregivers don't even realize
they already have, or they knowthey have them, but they don't
know how to present the skillsin a positive way.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Right, right, like I think about anybody who has
children who are involved indifferent activities or maybe
involved in their community.
They've got a complicatedweekly family schedule that
they're coordinating and in thebusiness world that's called
logistics and calendarmanagement and it's a real thing
(24:57):
.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
It's a real thing Also, like navigating doctor's
visits and medicines andinsurance claims and helping
others figure that out.
That's health care advocacy andadministrative experience and
we don't think of it that way.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Right.
But understanding how thosesystems work is huge and I think
anyone who has been involved orhas had a family member with a
chronic health condition man youcan get a crash course on the
intricacies of the system andthat's really valuable knowledge
, right.
(25:39):
Moms I know who have beeninvolved in lesson planning and
instructional design and maybeteaching in a co-op situation.
Maybe that's given themexperience working with children
who have special needs or somekind of learning challenges.
(26:00):
All those we're talking aboutextreme patients under pressure.
We're talking about managingmultiple demands, about triaging
demands and deciding what getsyour attention when those are
really really important skillsfor any workplace.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
And those skills, while maybe not done in a
professional sense, can takeeven a stronger sense of
intuition to be able to navigatein those types of settings.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Right?
Is it not just a one-off event,but maybe it's an event, an
annual event or a repeated eventor some kind of organization or
group that you've been a partof over a period of time and
maybe have carried increasingresponsibility for All those
things?
(27:19):
Those experiences can be sovaluable.
Yeah, the conflict resolutionor collaboration between
different organizations maybecompeting organizations being
able to collaborate based onshared interests is well.
For example, it's at the heartof sales, but certainly other,
(27:41):
lots of other professional rolesas well.
So if you're listening andyou're thinking about some of
the skills and the experiencesthat you have had, we want to
invite you to hit pause and justwrite down five things that
you've done consistently or havebeen involved in consistently
(28:02):
over the past few years.
What we mentioned here justbarely scrapes the surface, but
write those things down.
Don't worry about if they soundprofessional or not.
That's beside the point.
These are some things to payattention to.
Is it something that you havedesigned?
Is it something that you haveinstigated?
Is it something that you haveseen, a project that you have
(28:25):
seen through?
Is it something that you'vedone repeatedly?
Is it a project that has grownin scale over time or that has
involved a growing number ofpeople or a growing
responsibility, whatever that is.
Jot down five or more, howevermany come to mind, and then
(28:47):
we'll talk about how you cantranslate those into resume
language, into language that isrelevant to the workplace.
So, if it feels like all you'vedone for the last how many
years is created and maintainedweekly meal plans and grocery
budgets to meet family dietaryneeds.
Well, that's resourcemanagement and you're already
doing the job.
We're just going to help youname it.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
So this is where AI comes in.
We call him Chad, chatty Chad,but yes, yes, we're talking
about the robots and we promisethey can actually be really
helpful.
And I know, I know there's ascary element there, but let's
lean into the helpful part andlearn how to navigate that.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
And the cool thing is that, well, the basic platform
for ChatGPT is free, and there'splenty of others out there too
ChatGPT is the one I'm mostfamiliar with but all it needs
is your email and you can use itfor free.
And I think this is where itcan be really valuable to
(29:52):
understand the limits ofgenerative AI or platforms like
ChatGPT, because all they'redoing is taking vast amounts of
data and essentially predictingwhat word is going to come next,
what word is most likely tocome next about creativity, this
is about, well, it's likemaking writing sound like it's
(30:15):
coming out of an encyclopedia.
When we are wanting to writesomething from the heart,
obviously we're not going to tryto sound like an encyclopedia,
but when we're doing somethingfor a professional setting, then
it might be helpful to know oh,how is this usually said?
And for me that has been sohelpful.
You can kind of put in toChatGPT kind of a rough version
(30:36):
of whatever it is you'rethinking about and saying can
you help me say this in a moreprofessional way?
And ChatGPT will do that.
Does it sound beautiful?
Does it sound creative?
Does it sound is it going towin any awards?
No, but that's the point.
So I think the other thingthat's really important to
remember too is that when we aretrying to reframe skills that
(30:59):
are often not valued, it cankind of come off a little
awkward or wonky, or it cansound as though we're kind of
fluffing up, we're usingelevated language just to sound
smart, and that just comes offas fake, and that's definitely
not what we're here to talkabout.
That's definitely not whatwe're recommending.
(31:20):
The trick that I come back tois to focus on the facts and not
use evaluative language.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
So, instead of using words like good and beautiful
and wonderful and fantastic andthese kinds of evaluative words,
sticking to the facts is a waythat we can show our best work
without either inflating it orcoming off as cocky Right and as
kind of as a side note, whenyou set up your ChetchDBT
(31:50):
account, you can go into youraccount settings and turn off
the setting that allows yourinformation to be fed into the
greater system that offers moreprivacy for you and keeps your
information more secure for youand keeps your information more
(32:20):
secure and, as always, never,ever, give it personal or
identifying information you know.
Be smart about it.
Use it for your benefit, butdon't pretend like chatty Chad
is your best friend.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
That is such good advice and I'll make sure to
drop a link to directions forhow to make those security
settings changes in the shownotes, because that's really
important to remember.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
But as an example of what you could put in as a
prompt.
An example of what you couldput in as a prompt.
You could ask it to rewritethis experience as a resume
bullet Managed household of five, including coordinating medical
appointments, remote schoolschedules and meal prep.
While on a budget.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
And then ChatGPT might come back with something
like oversaw scheduling andlogistics for a multi-person
household, including education,coordination, health care
administration and financialplanning.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Yeah, sounds perfectly legit to me, and it's
not inflating anything, no, butit's just professionally stating
what you've done Exactly.
The great thing is it's notdevaluing it either
(33:53):
no-transcript qualifications.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Yeah, I've really come to appreciate what AI can
do as a tool.
You know, we bring the wisdom,we bring the creativity, we
bring the experience, the values, and what AI can do is help us
format it.
And even that we still have togo back and read it and say,
does this formatting sound likesomething I would say Like, does
(34:21):
this feel authentic to me anddoes it accurately represent
what I'm trying to say?
We can never let the robots doour thinking for us.
We still have to bring thatinsight to whatever it produces.
But as AI is helping us formatit, then what we can do to make
(34:41):
a resume really sing is bringthe details, bring the data, the
numbers that show the scope ofyour experience and really bring
to life what you've done.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Right, and you want to use it like a mirror, not a
mask.
You want it to reflect yourstrengths back to you, but you
don't want to use it to replaceyour voice.
And the interesting thing Ifound when I was putting out a
bunch of resumes was a lot ofthese companies if not all of
(35:14):
them would ask you if it wasokay to feed your resume to AI.
So they're doing it on theother side too.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Yeah, I've been reading about this and I'm glad
you brought that up, because Iwas reading about a case study
where an employer was feedingresumes into AI and somebody who
was incredibly qualified for aposition got passed over because
(35:45):
of a pattern that it wasirrelevant to the situation, but
it was a pattern that AI hadpicked up on.
It was irrelevant to thesituation, but it was a pattern
that AI had picked up on andsince AI is training itself, it
had come to rely on that pattern, even though it was not
relevant, and in that situation,the person had called and
(36:05):
talked to a real person and saidhey, you know, I don't
understand what's going on here,and the person ended up getting
the job after all.
So I think this is just anotherreason why we can't rely on a
resume to get a job that's thebest fit for us, necessarily.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
But I think it's a tight, tight rope that you're
walking on, because I askedsomeone about a resume I sent
and I think I offended thatperson.
So I think right now it's justreally difficult.
It's really difficult.
Do I use AI?
(36:43):
Do I not use AI?
Am I going to be criticized forusing it, or am I going to be
criticized because I'm notkeeping up with technology and
refusing to use it?
Do I approach my networkregarding the job I applied for,
or will it be seen as offensiveif I do?
And here's the lesson I've beentrying to learn from it.
(37:07):
I think it's important, at theend of the day, that we do what
we know to do.
I think it's important, at theend of the day, that we do what
we know to do.
We are allowed to make mistakes.
We are allowed to even beperceived as making mistakes,
whether or not it was a mistake.
We're allowed to do that andthe person I think I offended
it's okay, it wasn't the job forme, but I think we have to be
(37:28):
really careful about latching onto formulas, or this is what
worked for this person as aguarantee that it's also going
to work for us.
I think the professional worldlikes to have these stories of
this person did this and thisand this and look at what
(37:48):
happened.
This and this and look at whathappened, but they don't talk
about the stories where someoneused the connections that were
available to them and itbackfired.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
Oh, absolutely Absolutely.
I remember when I was applyingfor my current job.
I remember I lost count after Iput out like 90 applications.
I kind of quit counting afterthat.
And I remember going into thatseason of job hunting, looking
for the hack, looking for, youknow, looking for secret and
(38:22):
reading, you know the tea leaves, you know.
And I came away from thatexperience with just a belief,
stronger than ever, that youjust some things you just can't
hack.
You just you do the best youcan and I love what you say
about make mistakes.
That's how we learn, andanybody who shames you for that
is not your person.
(38:42):
And you do the best you canwith what you've got available
and that's all, that's all wecan do.
And and you're right, there areno, there are no formulas, and
that's all, that's all we can do.
And you're right, there are noformulas, even though formulas
sell a lot of self-help books.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Right, right, right right.
There are none.
You follow God's will, and thenyou have to wrestle with the
idea of so what if God doesn'treally care about where I work?
Maybe that's not, maybe hedoesn't have this perfect plan
for me, and so you're kind ofwrestling your way through that,
and I think it's easy for usthen to want to come up with the
(39:29):
perfect network or the perfectchat GBT script, or the perfect
network or the perfect chat gbtscript or the perfect, you know
whatever version of god's willthat we can tap into to
guarantee results, when thetruth of it is, we are human and
human, and the other side ishuman too, and humans are messy.
(39:51):
Humans have all kinds of biasesand preconceived ideas of what
they think they need, and moreand more and I don't mean to be
sacrilegious when I say this,but more and more.
I think it is just about doingwhat you know the next right
thing to be, the right nextthing to do, and following that
(40:15):
path wherever it might be.
I think only a few people get tohave the perfect notion of
career, and more and more I'vebeen trying to decide if perhaps
we have been encouraged to makecareer this pivotal part of our
(40:40):
lives, when maybe career isjust a way to pay the bills.
I don't have to love it, Idon't have to hate it, I can
show up, I can make my money, Ican leave, and can I just be
okay with that?
Do employers want us to love itand sink our very being into it
(41:00):
so that we over give?
And I don't know the answers,but it's certainly something
I've been thinking about.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
I'm pretty sure about that.
Yeah, that saying, if you dowork you love, no, what is it?
If you find a job you love,you'll never work a day in your
life.
No, that is that's no, oh, forall the F's sakes like seriously
, no, no, no, no, no, okay, no,no, no no.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
Yeah, so let's have a real moment.
Naomi, what would you say tosomeone who's sitting there
thinking is it too late for me?
Speaker 1 (41:34):
to someone who's sitting there thinking is it too
late for me?
What's interesting to me is howthis sense can hit us at any
age.
I remember being 21.
I had left my Amish Mennonitecommunity with no clear path
ahead and I really thoughtcollege had already passed me by
and by the time I was 25, I wasa little bit wiser and could
(41:55):
begin to imagine what that pathcould look like.
But you know, sometimes my lifefeels like it's just been a
series of pivots where I wasalways the newbie and where I am
right now for once.
For once, I'm not the obviousnewbie and boy.
It is a nice feeling.
(42:15):
There's a reason we don't wantto be the newbie.
Even when I now see how young Iwas at the time and how
adorable 21-year-old me wasthinking that I had missed my
window for college, I know thatthose feelings can be so real
(42:36):
and that we can feel them at anyage.
I can feel like it's too late.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
For sure, and I think maybe for those of us who come
from more isolated communitiesand grew up a little bit more
sheltered, not so familiar withpop culture, we can always feel
like we're catching up.
We're just playing thisconstant game of catching up.
There was an element of whatthe heck when I started college
in my 40s and I was sitting nextto high school kids in a dual
(43:05):
enrollment class and, yeah, Ifelt like a fish out of water.
But even more than that, therewas this element of the world
doesn't have a place for me.
And now I just recently starteda new job doing something I
have been doing my whole damnlife and I'm still being treated
(43:29):
as a newbie.
The training process doesn'tend and there's one side of me
who knows, you know, this is,this, is part of starting
something new.
This is this is, this is whathappens.
But I think there's alsoanother side of me who
understands that.
I think part of the workforcewants you to feel that way.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
Once you just feel like you don't quite belong.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
The system does.
The system benefits from thatfeeling.
So I also think we need tolearn you use the word pivot,
which I think is a perfect word,but I also think we need to
learn to keep advocating forourselves.
And I mean, guys, I'm 50 and Ijust started a new job and I'm
(44:16):
asking how in the heck did I notknow to ask this question?
How did I not know to ask howlong does this training quote,
training process last, and howcan it be that I am 50?
This is not a rocket sciencejob and I am being treated as if
I've never done this before.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
I think.
Well, you know, this is justone more reason why the job
market can be such asoul-sucking place.
It is soul-sucking, and I thinkit's prudent to be aware of the
different schemes that employersare using to take advantage of
(44:58):
the desperation that people feelfor good jobs.
I mean, I even I'm thinking ofhearing about situations in like
computer engineering kinds ofjobs or computer coding kinds of
jobs, where they are askingcandidates, job candidates, to
do projects for them and thenthey're taking the work you know
(45:21):
and this person's not gettingthe job.
And that's just one example.
This happens in plenty of otherfields too, more and more, and
it's a way of squeezing unpaidlabor out of workers.
And this is what happens whenwe don't have unions.
This is what happens when thebalance of power has shifted so
(45:41):
far to the side of employers.
And the number of scams that areout there on you know some of
the big websites where they willpresent something as a training
and then it turns out it'sthere's no job, or you know
there's.
You know some, some, some majorcatch the the.
(46:02):
The whole gamut from outrightscams to scammy behavior, to
simply exploitative behavior,you know, is out there, and I
think it's prudent to be awareof it and to realize that it's
important to do the next rightthing and to know when it's time
to cut our losses and go lookfor another place or go look for
(46:23):
another option.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
Right and I think, understanding that sometimes it
can be a little bit between ahazing experience and a dog
fight, may the toughest soul win.
Knowing when to stay, when towalk, when to speak up, when to
stay silent, when to addresswhat you're seeing, when to just
(46:47):
see what you're seeing and knowwhat you're seeing.
You're seeing and know whatyou're seeing All of that is so
difficult and more and more Iembrace the value of trusting
your instincts, trusting yourgut and even if you are wrong,
(47:07):
so what it was your mistake tomake?
You learn from it.
You deal with the consequences,you move on.
And I think this goes back tothis whole idea of God's will,
because if you're living inGod's will, then things won't go
wrong, you won't suffer, youwon't face disaster.
And it's bogus, it's a mindfuck that's hard to get out of.
(47:31):
We have to understand thatmaking mistakes is part of
living and we are not exemptfrom getting it wrong, and we
just need to keep moving forward.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
I know we said we don't have any hacks or any
magic solutions, but I think ifthere is any hack to take away
from today, that's it.
I snap, snap, snap, and I thinkthis is also why it's such an
internal project.
This is about internal work andit's that internal work that
(48:06):
gives us the confidence to takeup space, to take up oxygen,
even if we make mistakes,because guess what that's life.
We all deserve to have ourneeds met and the trick is to
believe that and follow throughon that while still believing
the same for others too.
And often I think we've foundmany of us especially as those
(48:30):
of us socialized, as women, asgirls, have been encouraged to
practice self-reflection,self-awareness, and it's not
just women and girls, butcertainly I think we get more
conscious encouragement to dothat.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
We get a double portion of encouragement.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
There you go, there you go To practice
self-reflection, self-awareness,but with that double portion
can come an awareness of all wedon't know, and so we can make
the mistake.
It's really easy to make themistake of focusing on what we
don't know then rather on whatwe do, and then self-doubt can
really hold us back.
And I think that's important torecognize when we are entering
(49:15):
some new phase of life or a worksituation to be confident in
what we do know rather thanbeing consumed by what we don't
know.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
Right and I think it's important to point out
those of us who have donecaregiving whether it is taking
care of families, taking care ofaging parents we have grit, we
have creativity and that isreally what we need, that's what
the world needs, and if we takethat and hang on to that,
(49:49):
rather than letting otherpeople's overconfidence make us
question ourselves, like I think, sometimes I see people
behaving in this very confidentmanner and I just think, wow, I
want a portion of that.
And it's easy to doubt yourselfand it's easy to let other
(50:16):
people undermine ouraccomplishments.
But I think it circles backaround to us doing our internal
work and valuing what we bringto the table and insisting that
that gets recognized and valuedas well.
Speaker 1 (50:36):
Right, and it's important to recognize that when
people do undermine ouraccomplishments, it can often be
about they're feelingthreatened, or it can be that
they just don't want to pay youwhat you're worth.
There can be so many otherthings going on there, and I
think it can be really importantto be aware of what else is
(51:01):
going on and why they might notwant to acknowledge what we do
bring to the table.
And because of this I thinkit's so important, especially
those of us who have beenconsumed with caregiving.
It's easy to either fall intothe track of either thinking
about our own needs andconveniences or to only think
(51:21):
about others' needs andconveniences, and I think it's
really important for us to bringto be conscious of our needs
and conveniences and to advocatefor them, while also
acknowledging those of others.
And it's that mutuality that iswhere we find that self-respect
(51:43):
, mutual respect, those reallyhealthy relational dynamics.
Speaker 2 (51:48):
Right, because the beauty really does exist in
holding both.
The beauty exists in ensuringthat everyone gets oxygen,
because we all do need that.
Speaker 1 (51:59):
Right and apologizing is something that you've talked
about as something you'vereally noticed.
Can you say more about?
Speaker 2 (52:06):
that.
So something I've beenobserving at work is how often
females come in and apologize.
Females come in and apologize.
I've been just noticing it inthe language that gets used and
I've realized how often that ispart of our vocabulary Like
(52:29):
almost knee jerk, yeah, and menrarely do.
Men rarely come into the wineryand apologize for needing
something or make an apologywithin their request.
They can be very respectful andvery kind in what they request,
but men rarely make a requestand then apologize for it.
(52:50):
And something I've beenpracticing is so if someone has
to wait because you know I getstuck doing something else and I
can't immediately serve them atthe bar, whatever the case is,
instead of saying, oh, I am sosorry to keep you waiting, I
will say thank you so much foryour patience.
(53:11):
How can I help you?
And I love that verbiage.
All of a sudden it switches thenotion of good behavior to them
, like that's theirresponsibility, but it
recognizes their good behavior,shows appreciation for it, and
then we get to business and I'vekind of taken to encouraging
(53:36):
the women who come in andapologize.
I've started encouraging themnot to apologize, and I think
it's something we really need tothink about, and there's
websites that you can go to this.
You can go to find more ideasregarding this.
But instead of saying sorry,there's so many different
(53:59):
phrases we can use.
I appreciate your flexibility.
Sure, I will take care of that.
I will help you find a solution.
I apologize for inconveniencesthat that might have caused.
Let's find a way to moveforward.
How can I make this right foryou?
What if we just say may I havea moment of your time, instead
(54:20):
of saying I'm so sorry, I needyour time at this moment, or
whatever, may I have a moment ofyour time?
Something else I've been really,really focusing on is just
simply saying if someone sayssomething crude or disrespectful
or something that I'm just likehuh, instead of me taking the
(54:41):
emotional energy and trying tofigure it out.
I love saying I don't know whatyou meant by that.
Can you say more?
Make them explain their ownbullshit.
It is so freeing, it is soliberating, because I do think
sometimes people use flat outbullshit as a way to deter you,
(55:04):
and then I will spend the nextweek trying to figure out what
that person meant, when I couldhave just made them explain
themselves on the spot.
It is one of the most freeingthings I have done.
I love that.
That's so.
That's so huge.
I wish I had learned this whenI was 20.
Right, and another thing that Ithink is important to say is I
(55:37):
can see this is upsettingst orconcern, but I don't necessarily
have to apologize for theirconcern.
Something I think we need toquit saying and I'm sure it
started out well-intentioned butwe need to quit saying I'm
sorry you feel that way.
Like, can we take a moment andtalk about that?
I feel like that is sodismissive.
Speaker 1 (55:57):
It's become a passive aggressive code, for that's
your problem.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (56:04):
Yeah, and I think people use it when they have
done real harm and they don'twant to acknowledge it.
Yeah, it has been used, I think, too often in that type of
situation and I would love tostart a campaign that we quit
using that phrase.
Well, I'm right there with you.
Speaker 1 (56:24):
I agree.
The takeaway for this is thatwhen we have a name for what
we're seeing, when we'reconscious of our options in
these situations, we have morepower to choose how we want to
respond, and I love this listthat you've shared here of
alternatives to I'm sorry,because I think that it just it
(56:45):
elevates the conversation andit's it's not just about self
elevation, but it you know, asyou pointed out, it it also
dignifies the people that we'reinteracting with as well.
I'm going to drop a couple ofresources in the show notes that
have been really helpful for me.
One is how to write a BIFresponse.
That's an acronym for brief,informative, friendly and firm,
(57:10):
and this is specificallytailored for potentially high
conflict situations, but I thinkthis can be really helpful even
for places where it's not highconflict, but what we're needing
to communicate effectively.
Also, deborah Tannen has donesome insightful research on
gendered language patterns, andif anyone is interested in doing
(57:32):
a deeper dive on that, we'lllink to some of her work in the
show notes as well.
It's really interesting to linkto some of her work in the show
notes as well.
It's really interesting to seehow some of these patterns
manifest themselves in ourlanguage as well, and while
changing the way we talk aboutthings is not a magic fix, it
can be a step in bringing morejustice to the world.
Speaker 2 (57:54):
I think you are like the most brilliant person I know
regarding resources and thistype of thing has been so
helpful because, of course, ittakes time to change the
narratives and you know thescripts we use.
But just the relief of havingvocabulary for what you see
(58:21):
happening I think is soimportant and I know resources
like that have helped me so muchBecause it's like, oh, I'm not
crazy Other people say this too.
Speaker 1 (58:33):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I agree.
They have been so helpful to metoo, and I'm happy to pass them
along.
So, when we think back overwhat we've been talking about
here today, we want to leave youwith three specific, three
concrete things you can do thisweek if you're thinking about
re-entering or entering theworkforce, or pivoting careers
(58:55):
or making a big change.
First of all, write down thatlist of weekly responsibilities,
past or present, and label thekind of real skill that each one
represents.
Speaker 2 (59:08):
And you know, I think sometimes these skills are
skills that we don't even thinkabout.
Like I think it's easy tobelieve that it's just normal,
but when I was working on myresume, it's easy to believe
that it's just normal, but whenI was working on my resume, I
realized that, oh, I hadnegotiated with my insurance
company to pay for services thatwere being offered at my
(59:29):
child's school, services thatthey would cover when you went
to the office, but not when theycame to the school.
I had been told, by three menactually, that I wouldn't get
them to change.
And guess what I did?
That is no small feat, but Inever considered putting that on
(59:49):
my resume.
Speaker 1 (59:51):
Right.
Speaker 2 (59:52):
And I know there's those of you who've, for past 20
years, have been teachingSunday school classes, bible
studies, homeschool, co-opclasses.
That is a skill and I think, askill that should be appreciated
and valued.
Speaker 1 (01:00:10):
And what it demonstrates is consistency.
It demonstrates persistence, itdemonstrates responsibility.
It demonstrates that you cansee a project through that you
can grow it, you can develop it,that you can be dependent on to
show up.
Those are the kinds ofqualities that are so
(01:00:35):
desperately needed.
Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
Right, and something else that you helped me see that
I didn't even realize was agood skill was for over 15 years
I coordinated an annual salesevent that attracted 250 people
every year.
I am sure we netted over$10,000 per event.
I had to work with the public.
(01:00:57):
I had to work with hotels.
I had to work with event.
I had to work with the public.
I had to work with hotels.
I had to work with advertising.
I had to work with vendors andit was something I did and I
developed over the years, but Ididn't think about it being
something that was noteworthy toput on a resume because I
personally didn't necessarilysee it as career or professional
(01:01:23):
.
Speaker 1 (01:01:25):
Yeah, and I think it's yeah.
We're educating employers, Ithink as much as anyone, as much
as the internal self-talk, butthey don't know this if we don't
tell them.
Correct internal self-talk, butthey don't know this if we
don't tell them.
So once you've got that listand you're not limited to five
things, but if you can come upwith five things, that's good,
that's a good starting pointPaste it into a generative AI
(01:01:48):
tool like ChatGPT and ask it torewrite this as professional
resume bullets and play aroundwith prompts Like don't just
take the first thing that comes,but see what, see what it says
and see what ideas it generatesfor you and how you might want
to expand on some things, how itmight generate ideas of other
(01:02:09):
things you've done that youforgot to mention.
You can also say just write outyour situation in a paragraph
along with all your concerns.
You know both your strengths,the challenges, the requirements
.
You know this job has to bewithin walking distance or
whatever, or has to happenbetween school hours or whatever
(01:02:30):
, whatever those factors arethat are really critical for you
.
Just write it all out and askchatGPT to help you brainstorm
possible career suggestions.
I mean, there could bewonderful job opportunities for
you out there that you've noteven considered, and I think
that's where this can be reallyhelpful in coming up with ideas.
(01:02:51):
But then, as always, bottomline, don't take Chat GPT
suggestions as the gospel truth,but really sit with them and
think about how they sit withyou.
Only use what feels authenticto you.
And remember you're not lookingfor chat GPT to turn your
resume into the ideal resume,because that's not a thing.
(01:03:12):
You're looking for a job thatvalues you for who you are, for
you what you truly offer, notfor a pretend version of you.
So so be that authentic self.
Speaker 2 (01:03:26):
And you know, I think to be that authentic self, we
really have to dive into our owninternal work and that's
probably one of the harderthings to do.
And speaking of difficultthings to do, number three on
the list was most difficult forme.
Sharing those results from chatGBT with someone else was
(01:03:52):
difficult for me, whether it's afriend, a mentor, a career
coach.
I think we need to find someoneto share that with or a career
coach.
I think we need to find someoneto share that with and let
those people remind you also ofyour value.
Let them speak into what chatGPT recognized or maybe missed.
Allow them to bring the humanelement to your resume.
(01:04:18):
And I think we should have anote of caution here.
Be careful when you talk tosomeone else.
It's important that you are metwith curiosity and belief.
If someone is dismissive, it'sa reflection of them.
It's not a reflection of you.
Keep looking, find anothermentor, find another friend,
(01:04:38):
find someone who believes in youand is both encouraging and
also offers valuable feedback.
I don't think any of us wantencouragement without feedback.
Speaker 1 (01:04:49):
And we'll drop some links in the show notes for
other AI prompts for resumeworkshops, resources for folks
making career pivots in midlife.
I'll also include a link to aGoogle Doc that I created for my
students who are looking intodigital writing jobs, and so
(01:05:14):
this is an example of how maybethere's a field that you're
interested in, and these arequestions that you can use to do
some research and find out yeah, what is what's that field like
?
What's that job like?
What's that?
What are the opportunities, thegrowth opportunities?
What kind of qualifications arerequired?
(01:05:34):
What kind of background doessomeone typically have?
Vacations are required.
What kind of background doessomeone typically have?
So that's another way that youcan explore and find ideas and
kind of let that help you asyour professional identity
evolves.
The most important thing toremember is that you're not too
late.
Whether you're 21 or 61, you'renot too late.
(01:05:56):
You're right on time.
While the things that youdidn't have whether that's
formal education or a job withgrowth opportunities, whatever
it might be that you didn't haveremember, though you do have
experience.
Let's find a way to make themost of that experience.
(01:06:17):
Don't let anyone tell you thatexperience doesn't matter.
It does.
Speaker 2 (01:06:21):
You're right on time so if this episode has helped
you reframe your story or howyou see your history, please
send it to someone else whomight need that same reminder
today if you're one of the manyof us who are thinking about
making a big change or figuringout what's next, we'd love to
hear from you.
Speaker 1 (01:06:42):
We'd love to know what topics you'd like to hear
more about in future episodes.
We are not professional careercoaches, but we love to talk
about our own experiences and welove to share the resources
that we found helpful, and we'dlove to know how we can be a
voice of encouragement, becausewe know how discouraging, we
(01:07:02):
know how difficult, howchallenging these kinds of
changes can be.
Speaker 2 (01:07:07):
So, until next time, remember that your story isn't
behind you.
It is always unfolding and weare here cheering you on.
Speaker 1 (01:07:16):
We'll see you next time.
Speaker 2 (01:07:27):
Thank you for spending time with us today.
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 1 (01:07:37):
What are your thoughts about college and
recovery from high demandreligion?
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences, and
we wanna talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atuncoveredlifebeyondatgmailcom.
That'suncoveredlifebeyondatgmailcom.
Speaker 2 (01:07:56):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode.
Speaker 1 (01:08:09):
Until next time stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.