December 16, 2024 • 45 mins
What happens when things don't work out? What happens when the promises of God feel delayed? Join us this episode as we reflect on our own experiences in waiting for God and receiving unexpected gifts from God.
- (00:00) - Intro
- (03:40) - Personal Experiences of Waiting
- (13:44) - Letting Go of Control
- (24:29) - Happiness vs. Holiness
- (34:23) - Pulling a Hagar
- (39:00) - The Illusion of Happiness
- (44:55) - Reflections on Waiting
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Luke (00:00):
God's primary concern is not necessarily your happiness.
There's something greater thanyour happiness. Welcome to The
Uncut Podcast. I'm pastor Luke.
Cameron (00:11):
And I'm pastor Cameron.
Luke (00:12):
And this is The Uncut Podcast where we have honest
uncut conversations about faith,life, and ministry. Mhmm.
Welcome back, everybody. It isthoroughly December
Cameron (00:26):
at this point. December. Very December. The
snow is real. Snow is real.
Luke (00:30):
Cold is real.
Cameron (00:31):
Christmas is, if you listen to our last episode
Luke (00:35):
Mhmm.
Cameron (00:36):
Is not here But it's coming. But it's coming. That is
the ultimate theme of Advent,which is what we're talking
about here. These, last episodeand today's episode and probably
some episodes here in the futureMhmm. Is the theme of Advent and
(00:57):
its focus on waiting Yep.
On waiting for the Lord. Mhmm.If you didn't listen to last
week's episode, we encourage youto do that. We talked a little
bit about how
Luke (01:10):
Just what Advent is in general.
Cameron (01:13):
How it's not just a
Luke (01:15):
Fancy way of saying Christmas?
Cameron (01:17):
Right. Or, once a year celebration Mhmm. Or observance.
What that Advent is really, Ithink, clearly a major theme of
all of scripture. Mhmm.
(01:37):
Always waiting on the Lord Yep.To do something, to move, to
bring deliverance, to I mean,when we preach when we preach in
Exodus in 2025, it could be anAdvent.
Luke (01:51):
It could be. There's so much waiting in Exodus.
Cameron (01:54):
Yeah. Waiting for the Lord to deliver. Yep. Waiting
with hope and anticipation andexpectation. And then similar to
our last episode where we talkedabout, like, the darkness and
the waiting.
Yep. There's a lot of darknessin the waiting Mhmm. Of exodus
as the people were, like,waiting for the promised land
(02:16):
Mhmm. Waiting to get to theplace, waiting for the Lord's
deliverance, but also justfreaking complaining about it
the entire time. Yep.
Like, this is miserable, lord.We would rather go back to
captivity Yeah. Than wait likethis any longer.
Luke (02:31):
Yeah. It's not supposed to be funny, but sometimes in the
Exodus story, it is just comicalhow how much they wanna go back
to being slaves for some reason.Yeah. Yeah. They're case study
in a generation that did notwanna wait very well
Cameron (02:50):
Mhmm.
Luke (02:50):
And the consequences of that.
Cameron (02:52):
Yeah. Or really how how enchanted and in love we become
to being in bondage. We loveslavery.
Luke (03:18):
It's comfortable.
Cameron (03:19):
Yeah. Well, we are not we were never made to be
masters.
Luke (03:23):
Mhmm.
Cameron (03:24):
You know, we're we are creatures. Mhmm. We are not
creators. Mhmm. And so we werealways meant to be in service to
or under the lordship ofanother.
So, yeah, lots of themes ofAdvent and waiting and Exodus
(03:48):
and beyond and all the biblicalstories. But we had talked a
little bit about last episodeabout maybe a situation where we
were, waiting on the Lord, andyou shared a little bit from
your personal experience. And Iwas thought was a really good
application.
Luke (04:07):
Yeah. Well, I wanted to hear from you on your side where
you had, where you've had towait and, where the Lord kind of
how the Lord ministered to youin that waiting.
Cameron (04:19):
Mhmm.
Luke (04:20):
And then maybe see where some of those themes take us
into our larger conversation.
Cameron (04:24):
Yeah. So I would say that probably the time that
waiting on the Lord was mostpronounced in my life. And this
would be, I would have to say,in our life because my wife is
included, is when we first gotmarried Mhmm. And we wanted to
(04:48):
become parents, and we felt likethe lord early on, not just in
our marriage, but early on inlife for both of us. We both
felt really strongly that thelord had, for lack of a better
(05:10):
term, put parenting in ourhearts like that we were meant
to be a father and a mother to achild or children.
And so we which made waiting forthat so difficult.
Luke (05:35):
Yeah. Because it felt like it was something from the Lord.
Cameron (05:37):
It felt like it was something from the Lord, and we
felt like, we felt like there'sno way, yeah, there's no way,
Lord, that you put this in ourhearts. But then are saying no
Right. In the circumstance Mhmm.Or in, like, the reality. So we
(06:02):
we we started to try to getpregnant probably 3 months after
we were married.
3 or 4 months after we weremarried. And, you know, didn't
know what it was gonna if it washow quickly we would get
pregnant or not. We had no idea.Yeah. So turns out we, we never
(06:24):
were gonna be able we never weregonna experience that.
And so about 7 years intotrying,
Luke (06:34):
we as 7 years is a long time, Cam.
Cameron (06:38):
7 years is a long time.
Luke (06:40):
It's a long time.
Cameron (06:41):
Yeah. Very biblical number.
Luke (06:43):
Yes. Very biblical number. But, like, I just wanted to
pause because I know I've heardthis story, but I was just
again, I was just like, 7 yearsis a long time Yes. Yeah. To get
a no an answer of a no or whatfeels like a no.
Cameron (06:57):
Yep. Yep. You know, and in that time, like, man, we
tried just about every way.Mhmm. Just about.
Not every way.
Luke (07:09):
Right.
Cameron (07:09):
But just about every way to kind of, you know
Luke (07:15):
Assist nature?
Cameron (07:16):
Yes. Yeah. And, you know, we probably one of our
last times where we were gettinga fertility treatment, Sherry in
particular heard the Lord say toher, in a really clear way, you
(07:43):
need to stop. Let me do this myway. And we didn't really know
what that meant.
I mean, we know what it meant.It meant stop.
Luke (07:58):
Yeah. Right.
Cameron (07:59):
But, like We didn't know what was next.
Luke (08:01):
What was it what was it look like to let God do it his
way? Right.
Cameron (08:06):
And so we did. We stopped all fertility
treatments. But what we probablystopped doing the most was
worrying about it. We stoppedletting it be the one of the
main orienting, like, situationsof our life. Yeah.
(08:35):
We weren't, we were, we stoppedbeing obsessive about it. We
stopped letting it dictate ourmood, our moods. We stopped
letting it become the thing thatwe were, like, making decisions
off of. Like, we're not gonna dothis because what if we get
(08:56):
pregnant or we're not gonna gohere or we're not gonna make
these types of life decisionsbecause we're trying to have a
family and, you know, can't movehere, can't buy that house,
can't, you know, whatever. Mhmm.
We stopped just letting it. Westopped it it from becoming that
that central focus of our life.Mhmm. And there was a part of it
(09:23):
that was where we believed theLord. We believed that in some
way, he was gonna do.
He was gonna fulfill that desireof our heart. Mhmm. But in other
ways, we were like, well, maybewhat the Lord is gonna do is to
(09:46):
replace our desire. Like, maybeit wasn't so much that he was
gonna fulfill the desire as hewas gonna replace the desire.
Like, we're no longer gonna havethe desire to be parents like we
once had.
And we had kind of accepted thatthat was likely gonna be the
(10:08):
reality. And so we kind ofstarted praying that the Lord
would make us holy to the taskMhmm. Or the calling, of
whatever it was that he had forus in replacement of that dream,
(10:31):
whether and whether or not thatdream was our own or whether it
was from him or not. You know?In that whole time period, there
was kind of one, one scripturein particular that kind of,
like, kept me specificallytethered to the promise of God.
(11:01):
And like God's because, youknow, we talked last episode
about what do we do in thewaiting Mhmm. And how do we wait
well Yeah. And how do we waitpoorly? And and how are we,
like, conducting ourselves inthe waiting? Nope.
(11:25):
And I don't like, I'm not tryingto draw any parallels between
Abraham and Sarah and Cameronand Sherry. It's not it. Sure.
Luke (11:34):
Yeah. Yeah.
Cameron (11:34):
But it just happens to be that they also were infernal
and Yeah. Whatever we need.
Luke (11:39):
Patriarch of a nation.
Cameron (11:40):
No. We get it. Right. Yeah. But in, Romans chapter 4,
where Paul is talking aboutAbraham being justified through
his faith, he says this.
He says, against all hope,Abraham in hope believed, and so
(12:00):
became the father of manynations. Just just as it had
been said to him, so shall youroffspring be. Without weakening
in his faith, he faced the factthat his body was as good as
dead since he was about a 100years old, and that Sarah's womb
was also dead. Yet he did notwaver through unbelief regarding
(12:24):
the promise of God, but wasstrengthened in his faith and
gave glory to God, being fullypersuaded that God had the power
to do what he promised. This iswhy it was credited to him as
righteousness.
So for us, the waiting became a,an act, kind of an act of the
(12:56):
development of our faith in,like, letting the Lord persuade
us towards his faithfulness,believing that, no, this is
something that the lord put inour hearts. And that the word
that the lord gave to Sherry,let me do this my way, really
(13:18):
was him being like, no. There Ihave a way Mhmm. That I am going
to do this. And, don't waverthrough unbelief regarding my
promise, but be strengthened inyour faith and give glory to me
(13:38):
being fully persuaded that Ihave the power to do, what I
have promised.
Mhmm. And so it was really atthat time where we were like,
okay, lord. We we release it.Mhmm. We release control of it.
(13:59):
Mhmm. We release ownership overit. We release any sense of,
like, our own expectation ofwhat it's gonna look like or how
it's gonna happen or what it'sgonna be, and we fully surrender
our we fully surrender thisthing to you, we're gonna pursue
(14:21):
holiness to Jesus Mhmm. Andtrust that when the time is
right, this will become youknow, that promise will be
fulfilled. Yep.
I wish I was a little bit moreclear about, like, the timeline
(14:43):
between then and, and when webecame became parents. Mhmm. But
it was not we're not talkingyears. Mhmm.
Luke (14:58):
We're
Cameron (14:58):
talking months. It was like it was like months where we
were finally like, okay. We'redone. Mhmm. We're done.
Done fighting this. Right. Thentrying to do this on our own.
And then it was like it wouldmust have been just a couple
months later.
Luke (15:14):
But not even a pregnancy?
Cameron (15:16):
No. Not even a pregnancy. Yeah. No. We weren't
pregnant, that we were, like,just kind of literally just
kinda fell into an adoptionprocess Mhmm.
For our, who is now our oldestson, Noah. Mhmm. And, it became
(15:42):
clear at that moment like, oh,okay. If we had gotten pregnant
Mhmm. Had our own kits, we wouldnot have bed in the situation
(16:03):
that we are in now Yep.
That would have allowed us orplaced us in a position to be
where the connections that weremade, you know, without going
too much in the story about howwe came, how we came to adopt
(16:24):
Noah, There was some somepersonal connections made to,
Noah's birth mom that were likelike, oh, yeah. No. I know this
couple over here Mhmm. Who wouldbe willing to adopt. And then
there was, like, a, like, atelephone game of connections
that was made to Noah's birthmom.
(16:45):
Yep. And then that got that'show the whole thing happened.
And so it was, without us beingin that situation of childless
but wanting children Yep. Thoseconnections would have been
wouldn't have been made, and wewouldn't have we wouldn't have
Noah today. And so there itbegan to be clear that the lord
(17:09):
was positioning was positioningus, it seemed to us, even to
this day still seems to us,positioning us to be prepared or
to be, like, available to beNoah's mom and dad.
Mhmm. And, and then after that,you know, it's like we had Noah,
(17:43):
and we were, he was 2, 3 ish.Mhmm. And then we went from 1
child to 4 children in 6 monthsMhmm. Through foster care and
(18:03):
adoption.
And then another 18 monthslater, a 5th child Mhmm. Which
is where we said, okay, lord. Weget it. You can you provide
children. We gotta slow down.
Thank you. Yeah. So Can we canwe pause the promise, please?
(18:24):
Yeah. And, so we we waited for along time.
Mhmm. And then it was like, whatwhat the waiting the waiting was
(18:44):
let me say this. It's like wewere waiting in our own
strength. And it feels like we,in some ways, weren't
necessarily waiting on God, butwe're just waiting was just
waiting for it to happen.
Luke (19:01):
Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. I see what you like, that's a small
distinction there. Yeah.
But, like, just like waitingfor, like well, this is a thing
that's just gonna happen, like,on its own natural consequences.
It'll work itself out Yeah.Versus God's the one who's going
to make this happen.
Cameron (19:20):
Yes. Right? We weren't our waiting wasn't with kind of
an expectation of God'sfaithfulness. It was what it was
it was more of like aexpectation of, well, we gotta
get it right at some point.Yeah.
It's gotta happen at some point.Mhmm. Right? Because there was
(19:41):
no biological reason why wecouldn't. Like, we had every
test you could possibly have.
Yeah. Like, there was a 0 thereis was zero biological
explanation for why we couldn'tconceive. And, in fact, the
doctor, our fertility doctor,guaranteed us conception. Wow.
(20:04):
He was like, I've seen peoplewith way worse numbers than
these.
We're gonna get you pregnant.Talk about Foot and mouth. Talk
about hubris
Luke (20:16):
Yeah.
Cameron (20:17):
Of, like, the lord being like, listen, bro. You
don't control life. Yeah. Youdon't control life. I do.
That's wild. Yeah. So, yeah.It's interesting. It was
interesting.
Mhmm. Somewhat of a god complexthere. Oh, yeah. But, so, yeah,
(20:43):
there was a that, you know, inin our waiting, it wasn't
necessarily like we were,waiting in expectation or
anticipation of god Mhmm.Miraculously showing up or
intervening or, but we're more,like, just twiddling the thumbs
(21:03):
Mhmm.
Type of thing.
Luke (21:07):
So what was the shift in your heart that had to happen
then? Like
Cameron (21:16):
You know, I think it it was there was 2 types of things
that I think happened. 1, it wasthe really clear word from the
Lord to Sherry Mhmm. Which wasvery impactful for us because of
its clarity and because of herconfidence in it.
Luke (21:35):
Yeah.
Cameron (21:36):
So she was not she's not ever been like, the Lord
told me this very clearly
Luke (21:42):
Right.
Cameron (21:43):
Type of so when she did say that, I'm like, got it.
Believe you. Yep. Believe it.Mhmm.
So there was that. If I had tobe honest, I would say that the
other part of it was like, theother part of it was like, fine.
(22:11):
I don't wanna be a father then.There was a little bit of like
obstinacy Yeah. Or likerebellion Mhmm.
In the waiting. Like, fine. I'lljust go back to captivity. I I'm
just gonna go back to slaverythen. Whatever.
Yep. Like, I tried. I waited.Like, what else do you want me
(22:32):
to do? So I would say thatthat's really only on
reflection.
Mhmm. That that was probably youknow, here we are, you know, 13
years later. And I would saythat that was probably there
there was a, there was a sliverof that there. There was a
portion of that there. Lookingback on it with maybe a little
(22:58):
bit more generous interpretationof where we were, we were also,
like, at the point where werecognized that we were making
an idol out of a child that wedidn't even have.
Mhmm. Like, we're just chasingafter it, and it was the key to
(23:19):
our happiness.
Luke (23:20):
Yeah.
Cameron (23:23):
And we thought we knew what was going to make us happy.
Luke (23:28):
Mhmm.
Cameron (23:28):
We thought we knew what was gonna be the silver bullet
of happiness. Yep. Yep. And whatwe, I think, began to recognize
is that is that god is notinclined to give us the things
(23:54):
that make us happy, until weare, inclined to have only his
holiness.
Luke (24:06):
Yeah.
Cameron (24:08):
Yep. And so when we chase after happiness in to the
detriment of our holiness, thenwe get neither. We get neither
what we get we don't get whatmakes us happy, and we don't
become more holy when we chaseafter the happy thing.
Luke (24:29):
Yep.
Cameron (24:30):
But when we chase after and fully pursue, okay, Lord,
Happiness is not my goal. Idesire only to be conformed to
the image and likeness of yourson, to be consecrated in use
for you in this world and inministry and in life. Here I am.
Luke (24:49):
Yep.
Cameron (24:50):
Then when that consecration happens, what, like
then he gives us the desires ofour hearts. Yeah. Delight
yourself Mhmm. In the Lord.
Luke (25:03):
Yeah.
Cameron (25:03):
And he will give you the desires of your heart.
Right? It's not like he willgive you the desires of your
heart. And then when you'rehappy with all the things that
you have, then you will delightin the one who has given it.
Right.
Happens the opposite way, or atleast that's the way that it
happened for us.
Luke (25:20):
Yeah. Well, god's not a cosmic vending machine.
Cameron (25:23):
Right. And so, and so I think we had to come to the
point of being like, yeah, thisis just something that is this
is just something that we'rechasing for our happiness. We're
not sure that we that it'sfunctioning as a part of, like,
our pursuit of holiness. Yeah.So that's how we when we had to
(25:46):
let it go.
And when we did, then the lordshowed up. Yeah. Interestingly
enough, I will say that it is inparenting Mhmm. Where god has
done the most work in me towardsholiness. It's like I we are
(26:07):
pursuing him in holiness.
He gave us what we thought wasgonna make us happy, children.
Yep. And in the process ofhaving children, he used that
experience Mhmm. To reallysanctify, purify, burn out Yep.
(26:31):
Unholiness in us Yeah.
In the midst of being parentsMhmm. Even now the current time,
present day, like parenting isthe it it is the purifying fire
of my life. It's the crucible.It is the it yeah. Parenting is
(26:55):
the crucible of my life.
Yeah. It's not for everyone.Mhmm. Other people, their jobs
Right. Is the crucible of theirlife.
Their finances, the crucible.Their health, the crucible of
their life. Their merits, thecrucible of their life. For us,
it's parenting. Yep.
Like, parenting is the crucibleof our life. I think once again
(27:19):
Mhmm. So the lord can fullyestablish himself Yeah. As lord
Mhmm. Over our kids.
Yeah. Because had our parentingexperience been different
Smooth. I can see us making anidol
Luke (27:41):
Mhmm.
Cameron (27:42):
Out of it. An idol out of being a father. An idol out
of being a mother. Yeah. But asit stands, we're like, lord, we
need you.
Oh, we need you. Every hour weneed you. Yeah. And so, Yeah.
(28:06):
Yeah.
Luke (28:07):
It's crazy how so much striving. It's like we can we
can expend ourselves in so muchstriving, and then it it so
often just comes when we finallycommit to stop striving
Cameron (28:22):
Mhmm.
Luke (28:22):
In our own power. Mhmm. There was, there was a clip that
I saw today that just hit meover the head because I was so
true, from the late great TimKeller.
Cameron (28:40):
Mhmm.
Luke (28:42):
And it was a sermon clip of his. And he was I won't go
through, like, the whole thing,but his point was is if you find
someone and they're justgenerally, like, you know, they
either can't forgive themselvesor they're, like, living in
regret or they're justabsolutely, like, miserable.
(29:03):
They're constantly sinking downinto this mire. He's like, if
you look deep enough, what youwill find is you will find that
they have a hope that has beenunfulfilled in some way. They
were hoping in something to makethem ultimately happy,
ultimately satisfied, findsignificance, meaning, purpose.
(29:24):
That hope has let them down andthey are now beating themselves
up with that hope. Like yourexample, like, would be like
hoping to be parents. Mhmm. Thathope was unfulfilled.
Cameron (29:39):
Mhmm.
Luke (29:40):
And I imagine that that was a heavy thing to live
underneath. Mhmm. For me, it'sbeen at times like a hope of, a
relationship because I wassingle for a long time. And if
you were like, Luke, what'swrong with your life? I don't
have anyone to love.
It would have been the thingthat I was like, that's what's
(30:01):
wrong with me. Mhmm. Mhmm. WhenI was like, when I was trying to
find when I talked about in thislast episode, trying to find a
pastoral position. You know?
Like, I had to go through thiswrestling of like, okay. My job,
my career as a pastor is not thething that defines me or gives
me hope and meaning. It has tobe something else.
Cameron (30:23):
Mhmm.
Luke (30:23):
Because I was squad I was being crushed underneath the
hope that was being unfulfilled.
Cameron (30:30):
Yeah. Yeah. Hope is never in a thing.
Luke (30:34):
Mhmm.
Cameron (30:34):
It's never in a thing. It's always in the hope giver.
Yes. You know? And so every timewe try to find hope out in a
thing or outside of him whogives hope, who is hope himself.
Like, it is God's presence. Hedoesn't God doesn't give us
hope. Mhmm. He he is. He is thehope.
Luke (30:57):
Mhmm.
Cameron (30:57):
He is the presence. It's his presence that is hope.
And so I, yeah, anytime we findwhich we're trying to find hope
outside of him and spouse or jobor kids or healing or
Luke (31:16):
Mhmm.
Cameron (31:16):
Whatever. We end up, we end up holding on to something
that's roots are not very deep.Yeah. It's not really tethered.
We don't really tether ourselvesto something very deep, and it
it tends to get it tends to getplucked out by circumstances
(31:37):
pretty easily.
Yep. Because then at any time,it doesn't produce happiness for
us. Mhmm. We become hopeless.Yep.
Not more hopeful.
Luke (31:51):
Right. And the temptation will always be in order to
fulfill that hope to compromisein some way. I think.
Cameron (32:01):
I
Luke (32:01):
think so often we will compromise, like, our holiness
in in a, desperate attempt toeither protect our hope or to
get our hope fulfilled.
Cameron (32:13):
Well, Sherry and I call we we have a term for this
Uh-huh. Based out of our ownexperience. Mhmm. We call it
pulling a Hagar. Yeah.
You know, and if you're familiarwith the old testament story of
Abraham Mhmm. And Sarai, and wegot some at that point, it was
Abraham and Sarai, promiseddescendants, father of many
(32:37):
nations. Yep. Right? Both superold.
Yep. Not getting pregnant.Right. But promised to have But
promised to have descendants.
Luke (32:47):
Right.
Cameron (32:48):
And so what does what does, what does Sarah do? She
says, well, like, this isn'thappening. Mhmm. We're waiting,
and it's not happening. So,Abram, here's my slave girl.
Go sleep with her and can seefor us a son. And so Abram takes
(33:14):
one for the team.
Luke (33:17):
Yeah. Go, Abram.
Cameron (33:19):
Right. He goes and does it. And Hagar Mhmm. The slave
girl gets pregnant
Luke (33:26):
Mhmm.
Cameron (33:27):
And births a son. And, and the lord is not pleased. No.
The lord is not pleased. Mhmm.
And that son, is not a son ofthe promise. Mhmm. Actually, you
(33:57):
know, it becomes a somewhat sad,somewhat revealing, tangential
story Yeah. In the Abrahamicreligions.
Luke (34:08):
Mhmm.
Cameron (34:08):
You know, the son born to Hagar and Abraham was Ishmael
Mhmm. Who they who the is in thelineage of the Muslim faith.
Luke (34:19):
Right.
Cameron (34:23):
And so, like, both Abraham and Sarai at a certain
point, at least, were notconvinced that God was gonna do
what he said he was gonna do.Yep. That God was not gonna come
through.
Luke (34:40):
Mhmm.
Cameron (34:40):
And so, okay, well, God's not gonna come through. So
what are we gonna do? We'regonna do this on our own. Mhmm.
We're gonna we're we're pullinga Hagar.
And so we do that. Yeah. Wecompromise our values. Mhmm. Or
I don't remember I don'tremember how you put it, but it
(35:01):
was really good.
Nice. But we we we try tomanufacture Mhmm. The
fulfillment of the promise Yep.Outside of god's time Mhmm. And
it.
(35:22):
I wanna say it never works outwell, and it doesn't. I was
gonna say it doesn't. It neverworks out well.
Luke (35:28):
Certainly not in an ultimate fashion.
Cameron (35:30):
Yeah. Well, you know, there may be, like, the thing is
is like, there's always theredemptive purposes of God, even
in the midst of our rebellionand our sin. And so, you know,
there it's all so like it it'sGod is so gracious
Luke (35:59):
Very.
Cameron (36:00):
And kind Mhmm. That even in the midst of our
rebellion and trying tomanufacture the fulfillment of
promise Mhmm. To us on our own,we may get something that will
destroy us or has the potentialto destroy us.
Luke (36:16):
Mhmm.
Cameron (36:17):
But he still is kind enough to often redeem those
that circumstance in our lives.
Luke (36:28):
Yeah.
Cameron (36:31):
And I don't know, like, I guess you could say that
Abraham and Sarai's sin intrying to manufacture the
fulfillment of their promise hasled to every generations, like,
every generation of the peopleof God, their enmity with the
(36:55):
line of Ishmael Yeah. Can makethat case probably. Yeah. Well,
there was
Luke (37:00):
I think there was something in there about there
being, like, enmity between the2 lineages.
Cameron (37:07):
The 2 brothers The 2 brothers. Forever. Mhmm. And
here we are. Yeah.
You know, 2000 years later.Right. And what's going on in
Israel right now is one just onesuch example. Yeah. Why did you
use the Muslims hate each otherso much?
Do they even know why they hateeach other? I bet you a lot of
(37:30):
modern day ones don't. Mhmm.But, I don't have an I don't
have an explanation for it otherthan that.
Luke (37:42):
Yeah. Me neither.
Cameron (37:43):
Yep. So, anyway, we we started talking last episode
about the applicability of
Luke (37:56):
Advent. Advent. Waiting.
Cameron (37:58):
Waiting on the lord. Mhmm. And so in my scenario,
like, what I would say is thethe applicability is that when
we wait on the Lord Mhmm. How wewait well is we wait on him, not
(38:25):
the thing.
Luke (38:26):
Yeah.
Cameron (38:27):
Like, we pursue him Mhmm. Not necessarily the thing
that we're waiting on, hopingfor, expecting Yeah. Needing to
see in the future. Mhmm. That weseek his presence and his
holiness and his, like,sanctifying work Yep.
In our lives that he would makeus into the people that are fit
(38:55):
to receive Mhmm. The thing thatwe that he's been that we've
been promised. Yep. So Yeah. Idon't know.
I I could do I think I wouldlike to I mean, I didn't really
(39:18):
recognize the reality or thedynamic of how when I finally
said no to a pursuit ofhappiness in parenting Mhmm. And
yes to a pursuit of holinessthat the thing that God gave me
that desire, but then used thefulfillment of the happiness to
(39:43):
create more holiness in me.Mhmm. Like, that is something
that I don't know that I'verecognized until just sitting
here talking about it. Yeah.
Mhmm. I
Luke (39:56):
think it's a really big it's like a paradigm shift. It's
I think it's kind of, it'salmost such a big paradigm shift
that it's hard for people towrap their minds around it
because it's so much the waterwe live in. But, like, god's
(40:16):
primary concern is notnecessarily your happiness.
Cameron (40:20):
No. Mm-mm.
Luke (40:21):
There's something greater than your happiness. It's his
glory and your holiness.
Cameron (40:26):
Mhmm. Right.
Luke (40:27):
And that is super, like, counterintuitive to the culture
we live in. Mhmm. Like, whatmakes you happy?
Cameron (40:38):
Mhmm.
Luke (40:39):
Right? Like, what you do you. Whatever makes you happy.
Right? Mhmm.
Right now, we're in the middleof, like, peak advertising
season. And, I've learned a lotabout, like, marketing and
brands and all this stuff. Theit's interesting. But the thing
is, and I was even I was justlistening to, to, John Mark
(41:07):
Comer's book, the ruthlesselimination of hurry. And he was
reading these different examplesof different marketing reads and
campaigns from, like, I don'tknow, like, pre world war 1 or
world war 2 and and howmarketing has shifted.
And marketing used to justsimply be buy this thing. It's
(41:28):
durable. It's functional. It'llsolve this problem. When you
watch like, car commercials arelike the greatest example of
this.
Pay attention to the next carcommercial you see. Car
commercial, it's not reallytrying to sell you how well the
transmission works. It's nottrying to sell you how great
(41:48):
that engine is. It's trying tosell you a feeling.
Cameron (41:52):
A lifestyle.
Luke (41:53):
A lifestyle. If you have this car, you will as be as cool
as Matthew McConaughey. Right?You'll be as Alright.
Cameron (42:01):
Alright. Alright.
Luke (42:02):
Right? Like, I remember those, like, those Lincoln
commercials he did, like, werethe personification of cool.
Mhmm. Or, like, in my head, wasit the Chevy Silverado
commercials back in, like, thenineties that had the, like,
Leica rocks, song set to it orwhatever, and they were going
like, I'm a kid. And I whenthose were commercials on
(42:25):
television, they still stick inmy head.
Right? Like, this idea of thistruck going over this enormous
mountain. Most people owntrucks.
Cameron (42:33):
Ain't never gonna do anything like
Luke (42:35):
that one. Right. Right?
Cameron (42:36):
Right.
Luke (42:37):
You know? At most, you're gonna do a little bit of snow
here in New York. Yeah. Mhmm.But it's this idea of what it's
selling you, this happiness,this lifestyle, this, like, oh,
if I have that Mhmm.
You know, then I'll be happy.Mhmm. Then I'll be this type of
person because I have this typeof smartphone in my in my pocket
(42:57):
or this type of gadget orwhatever. Mhmm. And it's just
all around us.
Yeah. And it's really hard forus to let go of the dream that
happiness is what it's at whatit's all about.
Cameron (43:14):
Man, like, the writer of Ecclesiastes had it right.
Yeah. Toil. Mhmm. Toil, toil,toil.
It's all frigging meaningless.Mhmm.
Luke (43:28):
Yeah. Yeah. Because there's nothing new under the
sun. Yeah. And, like and that'sthe that's the thing is it's,
you know, you talk to people whoend up having it all, and they
end up, like, they end uprealizing that it doesn't give
(43:51):
you everything that you want.
Mhmm. I think it was Jim Carrey.Jim Carrey had, like, this
massive like, he blew up as anactor. Mhmm. I think he made,
like, Ace Ventura both AceVentura movies, like the mask
and Dumb and Dumber all withinlike 2 years or something like
that.
Anyways, enough about my JimCarrey knowledge. But he had
(44:12):
this quote I think where he saysthat like, I it's my desire. I
wish everybody could have alltheir dreams met and all of
their money given to you, sothat they could find out that
money money doesn't make youhappy.
Cameron (44:25):
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Luke (44:28):
You know? Mhmm. And that's you you read that's Ecclesiastes
is, is this it's like this ideaof just like, well, if you got
it all, you're gonna find outthat
Cameron (44:42):
it's still
Luke (44:42):
not enough. It's still nothing.
Cameron (44:44):
Mhmm.
Luke (44:44):
So whether you have little or great Mhmm. What is there to
do except for fear of the lord?Yep. Yeah.
Cameron (44:53):
Right. Super cheery
Luke (44:56):
episode for Advent.
Cameron (44:58):
Yeah. Super cheery. But I bet applicable. Yeah. I bet
more I bet people felt feellike, these last two episodes
feel those themes of, like,waiting and the happiness and
waiting in darkness and what'sgonna happen.
(45:18):
And Yeah. So, anyway, we'regonna continue these
conversations through the month.Yeah. And, hopefully, you find
them helpful. And, as always, ifyou could like this episode or
share it, subscribe to it.
That would help us, or we wouldreally be encouraged by that. So
(45:40):
thanks for listening, and, we'llsee you next time.
God's primary concern is not necessarily your happiness.
There's something greater thanyour happiness. Welcome to The
Uncut Podcast. I'm pastor Luke.
Cameron (00:11):
And I'm pastor Cameron.
Luke (00:12):
And this is The Uncut Podcast where we have honest
uncut conversations about faith,life, and ministry. Mhmm.
Welcome back, everybody. It isthoroughly December
Cameron (00:26):
at this point. December. Very December. The
snow is real. Snow is real.
Luke (00:30):
Cold is real.
Cameron (00:31):
Christmas is, if you listen to our last episode
Luke (00:35):
Mhmm.
Cameron (00:36):
Is not here But it's coming. But it's coming. That is
the ultimate theme of Advent,which is what we're talking
about here. These, last episodeand today's episode and probably
some episodes here in the futureMhmm. Is the theme of Advent and
(00:57):
its focus on waiting Yep.
On waiting for the Lord. Mhmm.If you didn't listen to last
week's episode, we encourage youto do that. We talked a little
bit about how
Luke (01:10):
Just what Advent is in general.
Cameron (01:13):
How it's not just a
Luke (01:15):
Fancy way of saying Christmas?
Cameron (01:17):
Right. Or, once a year celebration Mhmm. Or observance.
What that Advent is really, Ithink, clearly a major theme of
all of scripture. Mhmm.
(01:37):
Always waiting on the Lord Yep.To do something, to move, to
bring deliverance, to I mean,when we preach when we preach in
Exodus in 2025, it could be anAdvent.
Luke (01:51):
It could be. There's so much waiting in Exodus.
Cameron (01:54):
Yeah. Waiting for the Lord to deliver. Yep. Waiting
with hope and anticipation andexpectation. And then similar to
our last episode where we talkedabout, like, the darkness and
the waiting.
Yep. There's a lot of darknessin the waiting Mhmm. Of exodus
as the people were, like,waiting for the promised land
(02:16):
Mhmm. Waiting to get to theplace, waiting for the Lord's
deliverance, but also justfreaking complaining about it
the entire time. Yep.
Like, this is miserable, lord.We would rather go back to
captivity Yeah. Than wait likethis any longer.
Luke (02:31):
Yeah. It's not supposed to be funny, but sometimes in the
Exodus story, it is just comicalhow how much they wanna go back
to being slaves for some reason.Yeah. Yeah. They're case study
in a generation that did notwanna wait very well
Cameron (02:50):
Mhmm.
Luke (02:50):
And the consequences of that.
Cameron (02:52):
Yeah. Or really how how enchanted and in love we become
to being in bondage. We loveslavery.
Luke (03:18):
It's comfortable.
Cameron (03:19):
Yeah. Well, we are not we were never made to be
masters.
Luke (03:23):
Mhmm.
Cameron (03:24):
You know, we're we are creatures. Mhmm. We are not
creators. Mhmm. And so we werealways meant to be in service to
or under the lordship ofanother.
So, yeah, lots of themes ofAdvent and waiting and Exodus
(03:48):
and beyond and all the biblicalstories. But we had talked a
little bit about last episodeabout maybe a situation where we
were, waiting on the Lord, andyou shared a little bit from
your personal experience. And Iwas thought was a really good
application.
Luke (04:07):
Yeah. Well, I wanted to hear from you on your side where
you had, where you've had towait and, where the Lord kind of
how the Lord ministered to youin that waiting.
Cameron (04:19):
Mhmm.
Luke (04:20):
And then maybe see where some of those themes take us
into our larger conversation.
Cameron (04:24):
Yeah. So I would say that probably the time that
waiting on the Lord was mostpronounced in my life. And this
would be, I would have to say,in our life because my wife is
included, is when we first gotmarried Mhmm. And we wanted to
(04:48):
become parents, and we felt likethe lord early on, not just in
our marriage, but early on inlife for both of us. We both
felt really strongly that thelord had, for lack of a better
(05:10):
term, put parenting in ourhearts like that we were meant
to be a father and a mother to achild or children.
And so we which made waiting forthat so difficult.
Luke (05:35):
Yeah. Because it felt like it was something from the Lord.
Cameron (05:37):
It felt like it was something from the Lord, and we
felt like, we felt like there'sno way, yeah, there's no way,
Lord, that you put this in ourhearts. But then are saying no
Right. In the circumstance Mhmm.Or in, like, the reality. So we
(06:02):
we we started to try to getpregnant probably 3 months after
we were married.
3 or 4 months after we weremarried. And, you know, didn't
know what it was gonna if it washow quickly we would get
pregnant or not. We had no idea.Yeah. So turns out we, we never
(06:24):
were gonna be able we never weregonna experience that.
And so about 7 years intotrying,
Luke (06:34):
we as 7 years is a long time, Cam.
Cameron (06:38):
7 years is a long time.
Luke (06:40):
It's a long time.
Cameron (06:41):
Yeah. Very biblical number.
Luke (06:43):
Yes. Very biblical number. But, like, I just wanted to
pause because I know I've heardthis story, but I was just
again, I was just like, 7 yearsis a long time Yes. Yeah. To get
a no an answer of a no or whatfeels like a no.
Cameron (06:57):
Yep. Yep. You know, and in that time, like, man, we
tried just about every way.Mhmm. Just about.
Not every way.
Luke (07:09):
Right.
Cameron (07:09):
But just about every way to kind of, you know
Luke (07:15):
Assist nature?
Cameron (07:16):
Yes. Yeah. And, you know, we probably one of our
last times where we were gettinga fertility treatment, Sherry in
particular heard the Lord say toher, in a really clear way, you
(07:43):
need to stop. Let me do this myway. And we didn't really know
what that meant.
I mean, we know what it meant.It meant stop.
Luke (07:58):
Yeah. Right.
Cameron (07:59):
But, like We didn't know what was next.
Luke (08:01):
What was it what was it look like to let God do it his
way? Right.
Cameron (08:06):
And so we did. We stopped all fertility
treatments. But what we probablystopped doing the most was
worrying about it. We stoppedletting it be the one of the
main orienting, like, situationsof our life. Yeah.
(08:35):
We weren't, we were, we stoppedbeing obsessive about it. We
stopped letting it dictate ourmood, our moods. We stopped
letting it become the thing thatwe were, like, making decisions
off of. Like, we're not gonna dothis because what if we get
(08:56):
pregnant or we're not gonna gohere or we're not gonna make
these types of life decisionsbecause we're trying to have a
family and, you know, can't movehere, can't buy that house,
can't, you know, whatever. Mhmm.
We stopped just letting it. Westopped it it from becoming that
that central focus of our life.Mhmm. And there was a part of it
(09:23):
that was where we believed theLord. We believed that in some
way, he was gonna do.
He was gonna fulfill that desireof our heart. Mhmm. But in other
ways, we were like, well, maybewhat the Lord is gonna do is to
(09:46):
replace our desire. Like, maybeit wasn't so much that he was
gonna fulfill the desire as hewas gonna replace the desire.
Like, we're no longer gonna havethe desire to be parents like we
once had.
And we had kind of accepted thatthat was likely gonna be the
(10:08):
reality. And so we kind ofstarted praying that the Lord
would make us holy to the taskMhmm. Or the calling, of
whatever it was that he had forus in replacement of that dream,
(10:31):
whether and whether or not thatdream was our own or whether it
was from him or not. You know?In that whole time period, there
was kind of one, one scripturein particular that kind of,
like, kept me specificallytethered to the promise of God.
(11:01):
And like God's because, youknow, we talked last episode
about what do we do in thewaiting Mhmm. And how do we wait
well Yeah. And how do we waitpoorly? And and how are we,
like, conducting ourselves inthe waiting? Nope.
(11:25):
And I don't like, I'm not tryingto draw any parallels between
Abraham and Sarah and Cameronand Sherry. It's not it. Sure.
Luke (11:34):
Yeah. Yeah.
Cameron (11:34):
But it just happens to be that they also were infernal
and Yeah. Whatever we need.
Luke (11:39):
Patriarch of a nation.
Cameron (11:40):
No. We get it. Right. Yeah. But in, Romans chapter 4,
where Paul is talking aboutAbraham being justified through
his faith, he says this.
He says, against all hope,Abraham in hope believed, and so
(12:00):
became the father of manynations. Just just as it had
been said to him, so shall youroffspring be. Without weakening
in his faith, he faced the factthat his body was as good as
dead since he was about a 100years old, and that Sarah's womb
was also dead. Yet he did notwaver through unbelief regarding
(12:24):
the promise of God, but wasstrengthened in his faith and
gave glory to God, being fullypersuaded that God had the power
to do what he promised. This iswhy it was credited to him as
righteousness.
So for us, the waiting became a,an act, kind of an act of the
(12:56):
development of our faith in,like, letting the Lord persuade
us towards his faithfulness,believing that, no, this is
something that the lord put inour hearts. And that the word
that the lord gave to Sherry,let me do this my way, really
(13:18):
was him being like, no. There Ihave a way Mhmm. That I am going
to do this. And, don't waverthrough unbelief regarding my
promise, but be strengthened inyour faith and give glory to me
(13:38):
being fully persuaded that Ihave the power to do, what I
have promised.
Mhmm. And so it was really atthat time where we were like,
okay, lord. We we release it.Mhmm. We release control of it.
(13:59):
Mhmm. We release ownership overit. We release any sense of,
like, our own expectation ofwhat it's gonna look like or how
it's gonna happen or what it'sgonna be, and we fully surrender
our we fully surrender thisthing to you, we're gonna pursue
(14:21):
holiness to Jesus Mhmm. Andtrust that when the time is
right, this will become youknow, that promise will be
fulfilled. Yep.
I wish I was a little bit moreclear about, like, the timeline
(14:43):
between then and, and when webecame became parents. Mhmm. But
it was not we're not talkingyears. Mhmm.
Luke (14:58):
We're
Cameron (14:58):
talking months. It was like it was like months where we
were finally like, okay. We'redone. Mhmm. We're done.
Done fighting this. Right. Thentrying to do this on our own.
And then it was like it wouldmust have been just a couple
months later.
Luke (15:14):
But not even a pregnancy?
Cameron (15:16):
No. Not even a pregnancy. Yeah. No. We weren't
pregnant, that we were, like,just kind of literally just
kinda fell into an adoptionprocess Mhmm.
For our, who is now our oldestson, Noah. Mhmm. And, it became
(15:42):
clear at that moment like, oh,okay. If we had gotten pregnant
Mhmm. Had our own kits, we wouldnot have bed in the situation
(16:03):
that we are in now Yep.
That would have allowed us orplaced us in a position to be
where the connections that weremade, you know, without going
too much in the story about howwe came, how we came to adopt
(16:24):
Noah, There was some somepersonal connections made to,
Noah's birth mom that were likelike, oh, yeah. No. I know this
couple over here Mhmm. Who wouldbe willing to adopt. And then
there was, like, a, like, atelephone game of connections
that was made to Noah's birthmom.
(16:45):
Yep. And then that got that'show the whole thing happened.
And so it was, without us beingin that situation of childless
but wanting children Yep. Thoseconnections would have been
wouldn't have been made, and wewouldn't have we wouldn't have
Noah today. And so there itbegan to be clear that the lord
(17:09):
was positioning was positioningus, it seemed to us, even to
this day still seems to us,positioning us to be prepared or
to be, like, available to beNoah's mom and dad.
Mhmm. And, and then after that,you know, it's like we had Noah,
(17:43):
and we were, he was 2, 3 ish.Mhmm. And then we went from 1
child to 4 children in 6 monthsMhmm. Through foster care and
(18:03):
adoption.
And then another 18 monthslater, a 5th child Mhmm. Which
is where we said, okay, lord. Weget it. You can you provide
children. We gotta slow down.
Thank you. Yeah. So Can we canwe pause the promise, please?
(18:24):
Yeah. And, so we we waited for along time.
Mhmm. And then it was like, whatwhat the waiting the waiting was
(18:44):
let me say this. It's like wewere waiting in our own
strength. And it feels like we,in some ways, weren't
necessarily waiting on God, butwe're just waiting was just
waiting for it to happen.
Luke (19:01):
Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. I see what you like, that's a small
distinction there. Yeah.
But, like, just like waitingfor, like well, this is a thing
that's just gonna happen, like,on its own natural consequences.
It'll work itself out Yeah.Versus God's the one who's going
to make this happen.
Cameron (19:20):
Yes. Right? We weren't our waiting wasn't with kind of
an expectation of God'sfaithfulness. It was what it was
it was more of like aexpectation of, well, we gotta
get it right at some point.Yeah.
It's gotta happen at some point.Mhmm. Right? Because there was
(19:41):
no biological reason why wecouldn't. Like, we had every
test you could possibly have.
Yeah. Like, there was a 0 thereis was zero biological
explanation for why we couldn'tconceive. And, in fact, the
doctor, our fertility doctor,guaranteed us conception. Wow.
(20:04):
He was like, I've seen peoplewith way worse numbers than
these.
We're gonna get you pregnant.Talk about Foot and mouth. Talk
about hubris
Luke (20:16):
Yeah.
Cameron (20:17):
Of, like, the lord being like, listen, bro. You
don't control life. Yeah. Youdon't control life. I do.
That's wild. Yeah. So, yeah.It's interesting. It was
interesting.
Mhmm. Somewhat of a god complexthere. Oh, yeah. But, so, yeah,
(20:43):
there was a that, you know, inin our waiting, it wasn't
necessarily like we were,waiting in expectation or
anticipation of god Mhmm.Miraculously showing up or
intervening or, but we're more,like, just twiddling the thumbs
(21:03):
Mhmm.
Type of thing.
Luke (21:07):
So what was the shift in your heart that had to happen
then? Like
Cameron (21:16):
You know, I think it it was there was 2 types of things
that I think happened. 1, it wasthe really clear word from the
Lord to Sherry Mhmm. Which wasvery impactful for us because of
its clarity and because of herconfidence in it.
Luke (21:35):
Yeah.
Cameron (21:36):
So she was not she's not ever been like, the Lord
told me this very clearly
Luke (21:42):
Right.
Cameron (21:43):
Type of so when she did say that, I'm like, got it.
Believe you. Yep. Believe it.Mhmm.
So there was that. If I had tobe honest, I would say that the
other part of it was like, theother part of it was like, fine.
(22:11):
I don't wanna be a father then.There was a little bit of like
obstinacy Yeah. Or likerebellion Mhmm.
In the waiting. Like, fine. I'lljust go back to captivity. I I'm
just gonna go back to slaverythen. Whatever.
Yep. Like, I tried. I waited.Like, what else do you want me
(22:32):
to do? So I would say thatthat's really only on
reflection.
Mhmm. That that was probably youknow, here we are, you know, 13
years later. And I would saythat that was probably there
there was a, there was a sliverof that there. There was a
portion of that there. Lookingback on it with maybe a little
(22:58):
bit more generous interpretationof where we were, we were also,
like, at the point where werecognized that we were making
an idol out of a child that wedidn't even have.
Mhmm. Like, we're just chasingafter it, and it was the key to
(23:19):
our happiness.
Luke (23:20):
Yeah.
Cameron (23:23):
And we thought we knew what was going to make us happy.
Luke (23:28):
Mhmm.
Cameron (23:28):
We thought we knew what was gonna be the silver bullet
of happiness. Yep. Yep. And whatwe, I think, began to recognize
is that is that god is notinclined to give us the things
(23:54):
that make us happy, until weare, inclined to have only his
holiness.
Luke (24:06):
Yeah.
Cameron (24:08):
Yep. And so when we chase after happiness in to the
detriment of our holiness, thenwe get neither. We get neither
what we get we don't get whatmakes us happy, and we don't
become more holy when we chaseafter the happy thing.
Luke (24:29):
Yep.
Cameron (24:30):
But when we chase after and fully pursue, okay, Lord,
Happiness is not my goal. Idesire only to be conformed to
the image and likeness of yourson, to be consecrated in use
for you in this world and inministry and in life. Here I am.
Luke (24:49):
Yep.
Cameron (24:50):
Then when that consecration happens, what, like
then he gives us the desires ofour hearts. Yeah. Delight
yourself Mhmm. In the Lord.
Luke (25:03):
Yeah.
Cameron (25:03):
And he will give you the desires of your heart.
Right? It's not like he willgive you the desires of your
heart. And then when you'rehappy with all the things that
you have, then you will delightin the one who has given it.
Right.
Happens the opposite way, or atleast that's the way that it
happened for us.
Luke (25:20):
Yeah. Well, god's not a cosmic vending machine.
Cameron (25:23):
Right. And so, and so I think we had to come to the
point of being like, yeah, thisis just something that is this
is just something that we'rechasing for our happiness. We're
not sure that we that it'sfunctioning as a part of, like,
our pursuit of holiness. Yeah.So that's how we when we had to
(25:46):
let it go.
And when we did, then the lordshowed up. Yeah. Interestingly
enough, I will say that it is inparenting Mhmm. Where god has
done the most work in me towardsholiness. It's like I we are
(26:07):
pursuing him in holiness.
He gave us what we thought wasgonna make us happy, children.
Yep. And in the process ofhaving children, he used that
experience Mhmm. To reallysanctify, purify, burn out Yep.
(26:31):
Unholiness in us Yeah.
In the midst of being parentsMhmm. Even now the current time,
present day, like parenting isthe it it is the purifying fire
of my life. It's the crucible.It is the it yeah. Parenting is
(26:55):
the crucible of my life.
Yeah. It's not for everyone.Mhmm. Other people, their jobs
Right. Is the crucible of theirlife.
Their finances, the crucible.Their health, the crucible of
their life. Their merits, thecrucible of their life. For us,
it's parenting. Yep.
Like, parenting is the crucibleof our life. I think once again
(27:19):
Mhmm. So the lord can fullyestablish himself Yeah. As lord
Mhmm. Over our kids.
Yeah. Because had our parentingexperience been different
Smooth. I can see us making anidol
Luke (27:41):
Mhmm.
Cameron (27:42):
Out of it. An idol out of being a father. An idol out
of being a mother. Yeah. But asit stands, we're like, lord, we
need you.
Oh, we need you. Every hour weneed you. Yeah. And so, Yeah.
(28:06):
Yeah.
Luke (28:07):
It's crazy how so much striving. It's like we can we
can expend ourselves in so muchstriving, and then it it so
often just comes when we finallycommit to stop striving
Cameron (28:22):
Mhmm.
Luke (28:22):
In our own power. Mhmm. There was, there was a clip that
I saw today that just hit meover the head because I was so
true, from the late great TimKeller.
Cameron (28:40):
Mhmm.
Luke (28:42):
And it was a sermon clip of his. And he was I won't go
through, like, the whole thing,but his point was is if you find
someone and they're justgenerally, like, you know, they
either can't forgive themselvesor they're, like, living in
regret or they're justabsolutely, like, miserable.
(29:03):
They're constantly sinking downinto this mire. He's like, if
you look deep enough, what youwill find is you will find that
they have a hope that has beenunfulfilled in some way. They
were hoping in something to makethem ultimately happy,
ultimately satisfied, findsignificance, meaning, purpose.
(29:24):
That hope has let them down andthey are now beating themselves
up with that hope. Like yourexample, like, would be like
hoping to be parents. Mhmm. Thathope was unfulfilled.
Cameron (29:39):
Mhmm.
Luke (29:40):
And I imagine that that was a heavy thing to live
underneath. Mhmm. For me, it'sbeen at times like a hope of, a
relationship because I wassingle for a long time. And if
you were like, Luke, what'swrong with your life? I don't
have anyone to love.
It would have been the thingthat I was like, that's what's
(30:01):
wrong with me. Mhmm. Mhmm. WhenI was like, when I was trying to
find when I talked about in thislast episode, trying to find a
pastoral position. You know?
Like, I had to go through thiswrestling of like, okay. My job,
my career as a pastor is not thething that defines me or gives
me hope and meaning. It has tobe something else.
Cameron (30:23):
Mhmm.
Luke (30:23):
Because I was squad I was being crushed underneath the
hope that was being unfulfilled.
Cameron (30:30):
Yeah. Yeah. Hope is never in a thing.
Luke (30:34):
Mhmm.
Cameron (30:34):
It's never in a thing. It's always in the hope giver.
Yes. You know? And so every timewe try to find hope out in a
thing or outside of him whogives hope, who is hope himself.
Like, it is God's presence. Hedoesn't God doesn't give us
hope. Mhmm. He he is. He is thehope.
Luke (30:57):
Mhmm.
Cameron (30:57):
He is the presence. It's his presence that is hope.
And so I, yeah, anytime we findwhich we're trying to find hope
outside of him and spouse or jobor kids or healing or
Luke (31:16):
Mhmm.
Cameron (31:16):
Whatever. We end up, we end up holding on to something
that's roots are not very deep.Yeah. It's not really tethered.
We don't really tether ourselvesto something very deep, and it
it tends to get it tends to getplucked out by circumstances
(31:37):
pretty easily.
Yep. Because then at any time,it doesn't produce happiness for
us. Mhmm. We become hopeless.Yep.
Not more hopeful.
Luke (31:51):
Right. And the temptation will always be in order to
fulfill that hope to compromisein some way. I think.
Cameron (32:01):
I
Luke (32:01):
think so often we will compromise, like, our holiness
in in a, desperate attempt toeither protect our hope or to
get our hope fulfilled.
Cameron (32:13):
Well, Sherry and I call we we have a term for this
Uh-huh. Based out of our ownexperience. Mhmm. We call it
pulling a Hagar. Yeah.
You know, and if you're familiarwith the old testament story of
Abraham Mhmm. And Sarai, and wegot some at that point, it was
Abraham and Sarai, promiseddescendants, father of many
(32:37):
nations. Yep. Right? Both superold.
Yep. Not getting pregnant.Right. But promised to have But
promised to have descendants.
Luke (32:47):
Right.
Cameron (32:48):
And so what does what does, what does Sarah do? She
says, well, like, this isn'thappening. Mhmm. We're waiting,
and it's not happening. So,Abram, here's my slave girl.
Go sleep with her and can seefor us a son. And so Abram takes
(33:14):
one for the team.
Luke (33:17):
Yeah. Go, Abram.
Cameron (33:19):
Right. He goes and does it. And Hagar Mhmm. The slave
girl gets pregnant
Luke (33:26):
Mhmm.
Cameron (33:27):
And births a son. And, and the lord is not pleased. No.
The lord is not pleased. Mhmm.
And that son, is not a son ofthe promise. Mhmm. Actually, you
(33:57):
know, it becomes a somewhat sad,somewhat revealing, tangential
story Yeah. In the Abrahamicreligions.
Luke (34:08):
Mhmm.
Cameron (34:08):
You know, the son born to Hagar and Abraham was Ishmael
Mhmm. Who they who the is in thelineage of the Muslim faith.
Luke (34:19):
Right.
Cameron (34:23):
And so, like, both Abraham and Sarai at a certain
point, at least, were notconvinced that God was gonna do
what he said he was gonna do.Yep. That God was not gonna come
through.
Luke (34:40):
Mhmm.
Cameron (34:40):
And so, okay, well, God's not gonna come through. So
what are we gonna do? We'regonna do this on our own. Mhmm.
We're gonna we're we're pullinga Hagar.
And so we do that. Yeah. Wecompromise our values. Mhmm. Or
I don't remember I don'tremember how you put it, but it
(35:01):
was really good.
Nice. But we we we try tomanufacture Mhmm. The
fulfillment of the promise Yep.Outside of god's time Mhmm. And
it.
(35:22):
I wanna say it never works outwell, and it doesn't. I was
gonna say it doesn't. It neverworks out well.
Luke (35:28):
Certainly not in an ultimate fashion.
Cameron (35:30):
Yeah. Well, you know, there may be, like, the thing is
is like, there's always theredemptive purposes of God, even
in the midst of our rebellionand our sin. And so, you know,
there it's all so like it it'sGod is so gracious
Luke (35:59):
Very.
Cameron (36:00):
And kind Mhmm. That even in the midst of our
rebellion and trying tomanufacture the fulfillment of
promise Mhmm. To us on our own,we may get something that will
destroy us or has the potentialto destroy us.
Luke (36:16):
Mhmm.
Cameron (36:17):
But he still is kind enough to often redeem those
that circumstance in our lives.
Luke (36:28):
Yeah.
Cameron (36:31):
And I don't know, like, I guess you could say that
Abraham and Sarai's sin intrying to manufacture the
fulfillment of their promise hasled to every generations, like,
every generation of the peopleof God, their enmity with the
(36:55):
line of Ishmael Yeah. Can makethat case probably. Yeah. Well,
there was
Luke (37:00):
I think there was something in there about there
being, like, enmity between the2 lineages.
Cameron (37:07):
The 2 brothers The 2 brothers. Forever. Mhmm. And
here we are. Yeah.
You know, 2000 years later.Right. And what's going on in
Israel right now is one just onesuch example. Yeah. Why did you
use the Muslims hate each otherso much?
Do they even know why they hateeach other? I bet you a lot of
(37:30):
modern day ones don't. Mhmm.But, I don't have an I don't
have an explanation for it otherthan that.
Luke (37:42):
Yeah. Me neither.
Cameron (37:43):
Yep. So, anyway, we we started talking last episode
about the applicability of
Luke (37:56):
Advent. Advent. Waiting.
Cameron (37:58):
Waiting on the lord. Mhmm. And so in my scenario,
like, what I would say is thethe applicability is that when
we wait on the Lord Mhmm. How wewait well is we wait on him, not
(38:25):
the thing.
Luke (38:26):
Yeah.
Cameron (38:27):
Like, we pursue him Mhmm. Not necessarily the thing
that we're waiting on, hopingfor, expecting Yeah. Needing to
see in the future. Mhmm. That weseek his presence and his
holiness and his, like,sanctifying work Yep.
In our lives that he would makeus into the people that are fit
(38:55):
to receive Mhmm. The thing thatwe that he's been that we've
been promised. Yep. So Yeah. Idon't know.
I I could do I think I wouldlike to I mean, I didn't really
(39:18):
recognize the reality or thedynamic of how when I finally
said no to a pursuit ofhappiness in parenting Mhmm. And
yes to a pursuit of holinessthat the thing that God gave me
that desire, but then used thefulfillment of the happiness to
(39:43):
create more holiness in me.Mhmm. Like, that is something
that I don't know that I'verecognized until just sitting
here talking about it. Yeah.
Mhmm. I
Luke (39:56):
think it's a really big it's like a paradigm shift. It's
I think it's kind of, it'salmost such a big paradigm shift
that it's hard for people towrap their minds around it
because it's so much the waterwe live in. But, like, god's
(40:16):
primary concern is notnecessarily your happiness.
Cameron (40:20):
No. Mm-mm.
Luke (40:21):
There's something greater than your happiness. It's his
glory and your holiness.
Cameron (40:26):
Mhmm. Right.
Luke (40:27):
And that is super, like, counterintuitive to the culture
we live in. Mhmm. Like, whatmakes you happy?
Cameron (40:38):
Mhmm.
Luke (40:39):
Right? Like, what you do you. Whatever makes you happy.
Right? Mhmm.
Right now, we're in the middleof, like, peak advertising
season. And, I've learned a lotabout, like, marketing and
brands and all this stuff. Theit's interesting. But the thing
is, and I was even I was justlistening to, to, John Mark
(41:07):
Comer's book, the ruthlesselimination of hurry. And he was
reading these different examplesof different marketing reads and
campaigns from, like, I don'tknow, like, pre world war 1 or
world war 2 and and howmarketing has shifted.
And marketing used to justsimply be buy this thing. It's
(41:28):
durable. It's functional. It'llsolve this problem. When you
watch like, car commercials arelike the greatest example of
this.
Pay attention to the next carcommercial you see. Car
commercial, it's not reallytrying to sell you how well the
transmission works. It's nottrying to sell you how great
(41:48):
that engine is. It's trying tosell you a feeling.
Cameron (41:52):
A lifestyle.
Luke (41:53):
A lifestyle. If you have this car, you will as be as cool
as Matthew McConaughey. Right?You'll be as Alright.
Cameron (42:01):
Alright. Alright.
Luke (42:02):
Right? Like, I remember those, like, those Lincoln
commercials he did, like, werethe personification of cool.
Mhmm. Or, like, in my head, wasit the Chevy Silverado
commercials back in, like, thenineties that had the, like,
Leica rocks, song set to it orwhatever, and they were going
like, I'm a kid. And I whenthose were commercials on
(42:25):
television, they still stick inmy head.
Right? Like, this idea of thistruck going over this enormous
mountain. Most people owntrucks.
Cameron (42:33):
Ain't never gonna do anything like
Luke (42:35):
that one. Right. Right?
Cameron (42:36):
Right.
Luke (42:37):
You know? At most, you're gonna do a little bit of snow
here in New York. Yeah. Mhmm.But it's this idea of what it's
selling you, this happiness,this lifestyle, this, like, oh,
if I have that Mhmm.
You know, then I'll be happy.Mhmm. Then I'll be this type of
person because I have this typeof smartphone in my in my pocket
(42:57):
or this type of gadget orwhatever. Mhmm. And it's just
all around us.
Yeah. And it's really hard forus to let go of the dream that
happiness is what it's at whatit's all about.
Cameron (43:14):
Man, like, the writer of Ecclesiastes had it right.
Yeah. Toil. Mhmm. Toil, toil,toil.
It's all frigging meaningless.Mhmm.
Luke (43:28):
Yeah. Yeah. Because there's nothing new under the
sun. Yeah. And, like and that'sthe that's the thing is it's,
you know, you talk to people whoend up having it all, and they
end up, like, they end uprealizing that it doesn't give
(43:51):
you everything that you want.
Mhmm. I think it was Jim Carrey.Jim Carrey had, like, this
massive like, he blew up as anactor. Mhmm. I think he made,
like, Ace Ventura both AceVentura movies, like the mask
and Dumb and Dumber all withinlike 2 years or something like
that.
Anyways, enough about my JimCarrey knowledge. But he had
(44:12):
this quote I think where he saysthat like, I it's my desire. I
wish everybody could have alltheir dreams met and all of
their money given to you, sothat they could find out that
money money doesn't make youhappy.
Cameron (44:25):
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Luke (44:28):
You know? Mhmm. And that's you you read that's Ecclesiastes
is, is this it's like this ideaof just like, well, if you got
it all, you're gonna find outthat
Cameron (44:42):
it's still
Luke (44:42):
not enough. It's still nothing.
Cameron (44:44):
Mhmm.
Luke (44:44):
So whether you have little or great Mhmm. What is there to
do except for fear of the lord?Yep. Yeah.
Cameron (44:53):
Right. Super cheery
Luke (44:56):
episode for Advent.
Cameron (44:58):
Yeah. Super cheery. But I bet applicable. Yeah. I bet
more I bet people felt feellike, these last two episodes
feel those themes of, like,waiting and the happiness and
waiting in darkness and what'sgonna happen.
(45:18):
And Yeah. So, anyway, we'regonna continue these
conversations through the month.Yeah. And, hopefully, you find
them helpful. And, as always, ifyou could like this episode or
share it, subscribe to it.
That would help us, or we wouldreally be encouraged by that. So
(45:40):
thanks for listening, and, we'llsee you next time.
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