December 9, 2024 • 52 mins
What do we do when God is seemingly have us wait? Christmas is really all about waiting. This episode Cameron and Luke reflect on the theology of Advent and what it looks like to wait for God even when it's difficult.
- (00:00) - Intro
- (01:55) - The Advent Season
- (07:01) - The Waiting Game
- (12:00) - The Proto-Evangelion
- (13:41) - Humanity's Longing
- (18:18) - The Story of Advent
- (26:59) - Practical Applications of Advent
- (28:45) - Personal Reflections on Waiting
- (41:37) - Waiting Well
- (48:17) - Lessons in the Waiting
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Luke (00:00):
I'm to follow God, not because I want the life that I
want, or I want him to bless mylife, or use him as, like, a
sanctioning tool for mydecisions.
Cameron (00:09):
Mhmm.
Luke (00:10):
But I have to follow God when it sucks because he's God.
Welcome to The Uncut Podcast.I'm pastor Luke.
Cameron (00:22):
And I am pastor Cameron.
Luke (00:23):
And this is The Uncut Podcast for honest, uncut
conversations about faith, life,and history.
Cameron (00:31):
Welcome back to the studio. Yep. That's what we're
calling it now. Yep. The studio.
The studio. It's no longer justthe room that we do the podcast
in because we've got lights.
Luke (00:41):
We got lights. We're official now.
Cameron (00:43):
Yeah. It it is it is a vibe.
Luke (00:45):
Mhmm.
Cameron (00:46):
It feels nice in here. Yeah. Thank you for doing all
this Oh. Hard work. Yeah.
Appreciate it.
Luke (00:51):
It's fun hard work, though.
Cameron (00:53):
It yeah. There's a maybe it represents one of the
fun parts of lots there's lotsof fun parts of ministry, but
one of the fun things we get todo.
Luke (01:02):
Yeah. So those who watch us on YouTube don't have to
maybe we don't look quite aspasty anymore. So maybe it's
slightly better more appealingto watch now. Yeah. Not that
we've gotten beaut morebeautiful or anything
Cameron (01:16):
like that. But And, today, we're we're we're
matching in our outfits. We are.Black hoodies for both of us.
Luke (01:24):
You
Cameron (01:24):
got your conduit hoodie on. That's right. We do have a
merch store at ConduitMinistries dot com.
Luke (01:31):
Yep. We don't have any uncut stuff there yet. No. We
don't. But we could eventually.
Cameron (01:36):
Yeah. But That would be. We could have stuff there.
Luke (01:40):
We could. Yeah. Yeah. But if you're part of the conduit
community and you want somestuff, want some swag Yeah.
People call it swag anymore.
Cameron (01:49):
I don't know. But Sherry wondered if we call if
people call it merch anymore.What did they call it? I don't
know.
Luke (01:56):
Somebody in the comments. Let us know Yeah. What we're
supposed to call it. Right. Butwe got some mugs and hoodies and
things like that.
If you buy a hoodie, buy a sizeup.
Cameron (02:05):
Buy a size up.
Luke (02:06):
Buy a size up. We're learning that the hard way. So
Cameron (02:09):
Yeah. Mhmm. But But, anyway, yeah, here we are. So if
you don't listen on YouTube orwatch on YouTube, pop over there
and even just check out thedifference between episodes that
we have done before Mhmm. Andones that we're doing now.
Yep. So, well, it's the adventseason.
Luke (02:34):
It is.
Cameron (02:34):
We are officially in advent season this year Mhmm.
Which seems unreal. December.We're in December. Yeah.
And because Thanksgiving waslate this year, Advent was also
late this year. But Advent is
Luke (02:56):
a season. Yeah. Because people outside the church don't
say Advent.
Cameron (03:02):
Is it Christmas?
Luke (03:03):
No. Christmas. I I would say I would even wager that
there's a good amount ofchurches that don't even say
Advent. They say Christmas too.
Cameron (03:08):
Yeah.
Luke (03:09):
So, like, yeah, you might be like, what's what's Advent?
Or maybe you have a sense ofwhat Advent is. But Right. Yeah.
I
Cameron (03:17):
had a seminary professor who was kind of like
an old church guy. Mhmm.
Luke (03:23):
And
Cameron (03:23):
he was very passionate Oh. About the church that he
led. He was also a pastor.
Luke (03:34):
Mhmm. The
Cameron (03:35):
church that he led during the advent season
Luke (03:38):
Mhmm.
Cameron (03:39):
He would not sing Christmas carols. Mhmm. And he
said it was a really big painpoint for his church.
Luke (03:46):
I bet. I bet that bugged a lot of people.
Cameron (03:49):
Uh-huh. Mhmm. Because Advent in, like, the classic
liturgical sense is the period,Before Christmas. Before
Christmas. It is the waiting.
Mhmm. It is the anticipation. Itis the coming Yep. Of the
Christ.
Luke (04:05):
Right. And then Christmas was more than a day as well. It
was 12 days. 12 days. That's 12days of Christmas is not the 12
days leading up to Christmas.
No. It's the 12 days ofChristmas. Yes. We we
shortchange ourselves in how wecelebrate Christmas in
Cameron (04:19):
the days. We do. And then there's even, there's an
additional liturgical seasonafter Christmas.
Luke (04:28):
Mhmm.
Cameron (04:29):
Season of epiphany, which marks or is supposed to
mark the, coming of the wise menYep. To visit, Jesus and Mary
and Joseph, which is alsosomething that we don't
celebrate. Right. So, if you goif you're in high church Yep. So
(04:53):
that would be like Catholic
Luke (04:55):
Anglican Lutheran.
Cameron (04:56):
Anglican. Some Lutherans.
Luke (04:57):
Some and some Anglicans.
Cameron (04:59):
And some Anglicans. I don't know about the orthodox.
Do you know? Yeah. Do you knowlike, are they in
Luke (05:07):
They
Cameron (05:07):
Are they following that type of liturgical calendar? I
don't know enough about them.
Luke (05:11):
It's it's pretty it's similar. It doesn't line up. So,
like, it doesn't, I think, like,the days are different. Or I
know they're definitelydifferent for Easter. I know
Orthodox Easter is on adifferent week than, everybody
else.
That's right. Don't remember ifthe same is true for Christmas
(05:32):
or not. And I don't remember ifthey if they call it advent or
if it's something else. Mhmm.But it's analogous, though.
The the structure is analogous,so
Cameron (05:42):
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So if you are in any of those
traditions, you likely docelebrate maybe a little bit
more closely those seasons
Luke (05:53):
Mhmm.
Cameron (05:55):
Than modern Protestantism does.
Luke (05:57):
Yeah. At least your your liturgy, your Sunday liturgy
will reflect that more.
Cameron (06:02):
Uh-huh.
Luke (06:03):
You'll have this idea of advent and then Christmas and
that being kind of more thanjust one singular day or Sunday
Cameron (06:12):
Mhmm.
Luke (06:12):
And that kind of the things that happen after that.
And that's what the that's whatadvent is, is this idea of
waiting for Christmas to come.So even calling it the Christmas
season is a little bit, it'smisleading if you're following
that traditional calendar.
Cameron (06:31):
Mhmm. Yeah. Because the word advent comes from the Latin
word
Luke (06:35):
Mhmm.
Cameron (06:36):
Adventus Yep. Which means coming
Luke (06:39):
Yep. Right? Or arrival
Cameron (06:41):
Or arrival.
Luke (06:42):
Or happening or something like that.
Cameron (06:43):
Yeah. So the whole season is based around this
sense of waiting. Yep. Like,waiting for something to come.
Mhmm.
And it's not really a I guessit's more of, like, it's not a
something.
Luke (07:02):
Yeah. It's someone.
Cameron (07:03):
It's a someone. Right? The coming of the coming of the
messiah. And so because we're inAdvent and we're preaching on
Advent and we're thinking aboutAdvent, we thought we would take
maybe a few episodes even Yeah.And just talk on those themes
Luke (07:25):
Mhmm.
Cameron (07:26):
The themes of waiting Yep. Of expectation
Luke (07:29):
Mhmm.
Cameron (07:29):
Of coming. And, and just see where it, see where it
takes us.
Luke (07:36):
Yeah. What would you say like, I think I think this is a
bigger conversation when we getcloser to, like, Easter. Because
when we've done, we've done someacknowledgment or celebration of
lent in our church. And Lent inAsh Wednesday, those those in
(07:57):
particular tend to have a littlebit more, people tend to have a
little bit more baggage withthose if they grew up in a very,
non denom, low church, not awhole lot of you know, it can
feel like isn't this tooCatholic? I don't think we get
that as much when we celebrateadvent because it's Christmas.
Cameron (08:21):
Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Luke (08:22):
But, like, what would you say to someone who's just like
you're using this Latin word,it's advent. Like, are you guys
just protestants? Or are youguys just Catholics pretending
to be nondenominationalpreachers for some reason? Like,
what's, you know, what's what'sgoing on? Like
Cameron (08:38):
Yeah. I mean, of course, like, an argument can
always be made that we're justfighting over definitions. Yeah.
You're you know, we're justfighting over, like, who gets
the right to describe, who getsthe right then, who gets the
right to name the season thatwe're in, and what is the season
(09:00):
all about. Yeah.
Because at, if you were to takea person who was saying
something like that, like, well,why are you using this Latin
word? What are you trying to beCatholic or whatever? And you
got down into what they werereally upset about
Luke (09:20):
Mhmm.
Cameron (09:20):
Or what they were really questioning. It wouldn't
be about the they they wouldn'tbe questioning the celebration
of the season. Like, weshouldn't celebrate the season.
Luke (09:31):
Right. Because it's likely I don't I don't know. I guess
I'm having a picture of somebodyin my mind. Like, not someone
specific, but I'm just kind ofattributing some attributes. I'm
wagering that the type of personmight also be, you know, kind of
like, yeah.
Let's not take Christ out ofChristmas. Like, don't don't
like, it's all about Jesus.Like, not talking to someone
who's anti Jesus, anti Christ,like, is all about Jesus would,
(09:55):
you know, sent would bealongside of just, like, let's
not, you know, let's not make itx mas. Let's make it Christmas
or whatever.
Cameron (10:03):
You wanna make it Christosmas? Christosmas?
Luke (10:07):
I heard that argument when I was in high school is that the
x is more close to the Greek forChrist, and so is a more
accurate Yeah. Keeping Christ inChristmas. But, anyways, so
yeah. Like, we say Advent in ourchurch, and we sell we sell
celebrate Advent, but we also,like, say Christmas and things
Cameron (10:29):
like that.
Luke (10:31):
But, like, other churches like, if you go to pretty much
any church right now, they'redoing a Christmas sermon series.
Yep. They've got somethingthat's Christmas themed. They've
decorated it. Yeah.
We're just calling it Advent.Yeah.
Cameron (10:44):
I think well, one of the reasons that I like to
maintain that language isbecause I think that the theme
of waiting, the theme of, like,the anticipation of god coming
Luke (11:00):
Mhmm.
Cameron (11:01):
Or his deliverance or his arrival or his presence or
his promises or whatever is notjust relegated to the Christmas
story. Yeah. It's not just aLuke chapter 2 Mhmm. Theme. You
know, it's it feels to me likeyou like, we could make the
(11:24):
argument that, that we couldmake the argument that the theme
of advent is a theme that startsin Genesis 3.
Luke (11:37):
Mhmm.
Cameron (11:39):
Where where at the fall, God is already all already
foreshadowing or, forecasting,however you wanna call it.
Luke (11:53):
Yeah. Yeah.
Cameron (11:54):
He's already foreshadowing the the
deliverance that will comeRight. Through Christ.
Luke (12:00):
Yeah. That passage you're talking about is often called
the protoevangelion.
Cameron (12:05):
Right.
Luke (12:06):
And is, you know, god gives a curse, but then he gives
a small little promise that'ssandwiched in there. Right? He
says, there will come adescendant of Eve Mhmm. Who will
rise up
Cameron (12:16):
Mhmm.
Luke (12:17):
Who will crush the serpent's head
Cameron (12:18):
Yep.
Luke (12:19):
But the serpent will strike his heel. Yep. And that
is considered by theologians formany, many centuries to have
referred to the eventual comingof Christ.
Cameron (12:28):
Right. So I don't know. It feels to me but tell me what
you think that, like, all nowand then all of humanity after
the proto Yamagelion, all ofhumanity is looking towards this
moment Mhmm. Where the messiahcomes, where the deliverer
comes.
Luke (12:48):
Mhmm.
Cameron (12:49):
And so all of creation looks towards it, actually. And
so all of the old testament isadvent. Mhmm. The whole old
testament is this is like a theseason of advent. Yeah.
Where's the Messiah? Where's theMessiah? Where's the deliverer?
Where's the deliverer? Where'sthe one that will make all
things right?
Yep. Yep. And then I guess you'dbe like, well, okay. The new
(13:13):
testament comes and Jesus isthere. Okay.
We don't need to we don't needto wait anymore. We don't need
to celebrate Advent anymore.Mhmm. But Jesus himself, before
he ascended back into heaven
Luke (13:28):
Mhmm.
Cameron (13:28):
After the resurrection, was like, wait wait for my
return. Yes. I'm coming back.Look for my return. Right.
Live as though I'm returning.Mhmm. Because I am. And so this
there's only, like, a really 2,like, little blips of non Advent
(13:50):
life Mhmm. In the garden beforethe fall
Luke (13:55):
Mhmm.
Cameron (13:57):
And during the earthly ministry of Jesus.
Luke (14:01):
Right. Like, when Christ is saying, like, why would they
fast when the bridegroom is withthem?
Cameron (14:05):
Right.
Luke (14:05):
But there will be a day when they will fast
Cameron (14:07):
Exactly. When I
Luke (14:07):
am no longer here.
Cameron (14:08):
Exactly. So you're you're talking about 2 little
blips of time Yep. In biblicalhistory where where humanity is
not in some season of Advent. SoI want to celebrate Advent. I
want to, still use that term
Luke (14:29):
Mhmm.
Cameron (14:29):
Because I think it is a major and significant
metanarrative in scripture.
Luke (14:38):
Yeah. Yeah. I think it's there's definitely a way in
which you can read you can readthe old testament. And if you
just look at, the chosen son
Cameron (14:53):
Mhmm.
Luke (14:53):
Like, theme in the old patriarchs and the old testament
and Abraham's almost sacrificeof Isaac. You can even go to,
there's a small blip where Moseseven, offered to sacrifice
himself for a moment. There'sall these places where there
(15:15):
there's there's these differentimages of the chosen son, the
chosen seed, and then there'sthe chosen king through all of
and then all of that is allsupposed to be creating the
sense of drama of, like, is thisthe chosen king? Is this the
chosen seed? Is this the chosenson?
And the answer always ends upbeing no. Even if they're really
(15:38):
great like Moses or somethinglike that, they still somehow
fall short of being the one whocrushes the serpent head Mhmm.
Until that is gets answered inthe gospels. But then you see
that same advent language beingused by Paul when he begins to
say all of creation is ingroaning and longing. It's in
(16:01):
the pains of childbirth untilit's redemption, the redemption
of our bodies, our souls, andall of creation up in Christ's
second coming.
Cameron (16:10):
Mhmm.
Luke (16:11):
There is this I don't know where this term, like,
specifically originated. So iteither originated with arth
Arthurian legend legends. Solegends to do with, like, King
Arthur and the round table, theknights, Camelot, all that. Or
it may have originated withChrist and then was co opted and
(16:34):
used in that, using the used inthose legends. I don't know
which one came first or where itcame from.
But I know that there is this,one of the collection of the
Arthurian legends is called theonce and future king. This idea
of King Arthur embodies he wasthe king of England. And so he
(16:59):
once was the king, and then hewill be the future king of
England so as much as everymonarch or king embodies those
virtues and the essence of KingArthur.
Cameron (17:11):
Mhmm.
Luke (17:11):
I saw a, a book and it was titled The Once and Future
Coming of Christ. And I waslike, I really, really like that
idea because Christ has comealready Mhmm. But is also coming
again.
Cameron (17:28):
Mhmm.
Luke (17:28):
And is coming into our hearts every single day. Every
day that we open ourselves upand invite god into our day to
day life, there's an invitationfor him to be present and dwell
among us and for us to abide inhim. Mhmm. So I I love that
really poetic language of theonce and future coming of Christ
(17:50):
because it wraps up that factthat we're celebrating that
Christ did come, but then we'realso hearkening to the fact that
Christ will come again.
Cameron (17:59):
Mhmm. Mhmm. Right. And I think in the in Advent in
Advent celebration or in the Idon't know. I was gonna when you
the the problem is that we onlytalk about Advent once a year.
Yeah. And so when you do talkabout Advent only once a year
(18:23):
during the Christmas season,then it feels like, well, you
there's there's so much that youcould unpack about the huge
theme of Advent in the bib inbiblical history, pre Jesus.
Luke (18:45):
Mhmm.
Cameron (18:46):
But also everything every bit of hope that we have,
every bit of, like every bit ofhope that we have is hope for is
hope in the midst of Advent.It's hope for the future coming
Yeah. Of Christ. It's hope forour eternal salvation. It's hope
(19:06):
for our, like, the redemption ofour circumstances Mhmm.
And of our souls. And so I whatI was gonna say is that one of
the things that leaves mewanting more during the advent
season is to also preachspecifically on or lead or
(19:31):
talks, you know, morespecifically on the second
advent.
Luke (19:36):
Mhmm.
Cameron (19:38):
To more fully root advent as a comprehensive
biblical theme Yeah. Rather thanjust like a Luke 2 Yeah. Type of
theme.
Luke (19:50):
Mhmm. And
Cameron (19:53):
maybe, you know, maybe that's what we need to do. Maybe
we need to have an advent series
Luke (19:58):
Next year's gonna be on Revelation.
Cameron (19:59):
In July.
Luke (20:00):
Advent. You know?
Cameron (20:02):
Yeah. You have an advent c series in July. Mhmm.
And you make people reallyconfused Yeah. About, like wait
a second.
Luke (20:11):
Advent in July.
Cameron (20:12):
Yeah. Pull out the advent wreath. Light some advent
candles. You know? Yeah.
And, I mean, maybe, like,intentionally use the oddity of
the season Mhmm. To paint areally comprehensive picture.
Luke (20:34):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think because it's, you know, you can
get really caught up in the,like, rehearsal of the first
coming of Christ. The Luke 2,Christ being born, Mary,
Bethlehem, the, stable, all thatstuff.
And I think what that like, partof that rehearsing and one of
(20:56):
the reasons I like using themore traditional terms and
leaning into, church history andchurch tradition is I like to
know that we're participating insomething that the church has
been doing for a long time.
Cameron (21:11):
Mhmm.
Luke (21:11):
That we're kind of retelling the same story. And
that the story is ultimatelymeant to not just remind us of
what has happened, but get us tobe in a place where we can see
how they how that wasexperienced and then overlay our
own waiting on top of the story.Mhmm. So that we're like, you
(21:36):
know because there is somethingabout that story of, like, Mary
and Joseph being in a veryvulnerable position, traveling
to Bethlehem. They're rejected.
They can't get into the inns.There's no place for them to
stay. They're kinda out on theirown. It was really interesting,
(21:58):
actually. I because I just did alast week, did a portion out of
Luke.
Was that Luke 3? Where Mary andJoseph go to the temple to make
sacrifices. And there's a verysmall phrase where it says that
Mary and Joseph made sacrificesfor themselves, when really the
(22:21):
the sacrifices it wasmentioning, the rights of
purification were really meantjust for Mary because she had
gone through the thing ofchildbirth. But many
commentators look at that andsay it's a good signal that
Joseph had to participate inhelping deliver the baby, which
would have not been a thing thatJoseph would have normally have
(22:44):
done. There would have been amidwife or something like that,
but there may not have been amidwife because Joseph himself
also had to go through those,purity rituals that were
mentioned in the passage.
So they're potentially just allon their own, and they're in
this likely cave with animalsgiving birth. And but in the
middle of all of that messinessis like this hope. Mhmm. And,
(23:08):
like, we can resonate with thehumanness of that. Yeah.
And wanting to say, okay. We'rein the middle of my messy,
uncertain life. Do I Yeah. Do Ineed hope? Do I need Christ to
show up in the middle of
Cameron (23:25):
Yeah. Totally, like, missed expectations about life.
Like, I don't know that Mary orJoseph ever had a dream that
they would become pregnant inthat manner.
Luke (23:40):
Right.
Cameron (23:40):
That's the way that they would build their family.
Yep. And if we think rationallyabout it, it seems so miraculous
and beautiful to us now. Mhmm.But like you were just saying,
imagine placing yourself in thestory and just kind of, like,
what crushing circumstances thatmust have.
Luke (24:03):
Well, this and I I think sometimes it's hard to
understand the the socialostracization, the social, like,
stigma that was probablysurrounding them because the
passage doesn't say much aboutit. Mhmm. But it's fair to
assume that possibly some familyand friends were all go like,
yeah. The holy spirit. Right.
(24:24):
Right, Mary. Exactly. Uh-huh,Joseph. You know? Like In
Cameron (24:28):
a similar like like, we all would.
Luke (24:31):
Yeah. Well, people still do that. Right? People still
struggle to accept the virginbirth. Right.
And say, oh, well, it's ratherit's the bible including this,
you know, marriage and child
Cameron (24:43):
out of wedlock. Like and Yeah. Trying to spiritualize
it or romanticize the reality ofit. Mhmm. Yeah.
Yeah. That would be the yeah.That that's that would even be
an interesting that'd be aninteresting podcast topic.
Talking about the like, howcentral to how central to
(25:08):
Christian faith is a virginalconception.
Luke (25:12):
Mhmm.
Cameron (25:17):
Let's come let's come Let's
Luke (25:18):
come back. Let's come back. Let's come back.
Cameron (25:19):
We'll put a pin in that one. It's in most of the creeds.
Luke (25:23):
It is.
Cameron (25:24):
It's It And it's in scripture.
Luke (25:26):
Mhmm. It's confessed pretty pretty staunchly.
Cameron (25:30):
Yeah. Yeah. So okay. Anyway But yeah. Any so, like,
the idea of Advent not beingjust a ancient biblical theme
Mhmm.
But about how applicable it iswhen you overlay those themes on
(25:54):
our our lives Yeah. And howwe're waiting on God for Any
number of things. Yep. And, youknow, we're we're we're we're
waiting, Lord. We're looking foryou.
Mhmm. We're watching for you. Weneed you. We're full of
(26:15):
expectation for you to act onour behalf or in history Mhmm.
Or to do this thing.
That's essentially what we isn'tthat a large part of the the
spirit behind even our prayers?
Luke (26:31):
Yeah.
Cameron (26:32):
It's like, lord, we're waiting for like, lord, would
you please bring healing? Mhmm.Lord, would you please move?
Would you please show yourselfto us? Yep.
Provide, you know, whatever. Itis prayer is an advent. Yep. Is
an advent practice. Mhmm.
(26:53):
And so I think this so then theseason then of Advent or the
celebration of Advent is perhapsone of the most practically
applicable times of the yearYep. For us.
Luke (27:18):
Yeah. Well and it's a because there's the holidays.
Like, one of the things too isthat, like, the holidays are
really difficult for a lot ofpeople. Like, I feel like the
older we get, the more peoplestruggle with the holidays
sometimes because there arepeople who are absent or it's a
(27:42):
place of, like, of wishing wehad, like, a certain family
dynamic and not experiencing orhaving that. Mhmm.
And good grief. It gets dark atwhat in the afternoon?
Cameron (27:57):
5 o'clock.
Luke (27:58):
Yeah. I'm like, that's rough on me. Like, just the
sheer darkness of the wholeseason and and feeling like, you
know, everything kind of hasslows down because particularly
like, if you're listening tothis and you're not getting snow
in the winter, I don't know.I've God bless you. Yeah.
God bless you. Flat your heart.But up here because
Cameron (28:21):
we're getting crushed over there.
Luke (28:22):
We're get we just had a big snowstorm. And, like, it
just slows you down. Mhmm. Youjust can't do as much. Things
close down.
Like, you're just not as active.There's this whole kind of,
like, stopping that happens inthe middle of winter. Mhmm. And
this anticipation for spring andfor renewal and all of that, but
(28:44):
that can't come without Christcoming.
Cameron (28:46):
Yeah. So a question for your own, like, your own
application of Advent andwaiting on God
Luke (28:56):
Mhmm.
Cameron (28:56):
And, like, looking to the future. What would you say
if you had to, like, pinpoint 1or 2 points in your life where
you can remember, like, that youwere actively looking, watching,
waiting, needing, and expecting
Luke (29:17):
Mhmm.
Cameron (29:17):
God to do a miracle or show up or provide or and you
could, like, even just feel inyour soul this sense of, like, I
am just waiting in faith. Hopingin faith.
Luke (29:35):
Yep. Honestly, the most recent one that comes to my mind
and probably one of the biggerones was end of 2020, the church
I was a part of closed becausewe were a church plant in
Chicago. And, we closed, like,we found I've we've we made the
(29:58):
decision to close the churchplant on, like, December, like,
right about now, I think. Mhmm.It was, like, early it was,
like, the first or second weekof December, 2020.
We we were just a small churchplant at that point. We were
struggling. We've been going onfor several years, and COVID had
really just gave us, like, thelast one two punch. And our last
(30:25):
Sunday service was held overZoom in my apartment. It's a
miserable way to end a church.
Mhmm. And I like yeah. It wasthe Sunday before Christmas Eve.
So I think Christmas Eve was,like, on a Tuesday or something
like that. So it was, like, thethat Sunday.
(30:49):
So we packed up all the stuffthat we had left over from that
little Zoom livestream Sundayservice. I packed up all of my
stuff because I didn't have ajust too short of a time for me
to really find gainfulemployment in Chicago, less than
a month's notice. And I couldhave, like, gone and worked at
(31:10):
Starbucks or something likethat, but I was just not I
wasn't even sure I wanted tostay in Chicago long term.
Cameron (31:15):
Mhmm.
Luke (31:16):
So, you know, I was fortunate enough to be able to
go back to my parents. So I howhow old was I? 31? I packed up
all of my stuff and I got home,like, Christmas Eve or something
like that. I'm back at my homechurch.
All my stuff's in boxes, and I'mliving in one of my brother's
(31:36):
rooms while he's away at collegebecause my room's been
repurposed something else. Mhmm.And I have no idea where I'm
gonna go, what I'm gonna do.Where where will I be a pastor?
Will I be a pastor?
Like, all of those questionswere, like, really big. And I
had no idea what was gonnahappen.
Cameron (31:56):
Mhmm.
Luke (31:56):
And that was like a 6 month it was like a solid 6
month job search experiencewhere I was pretty dedicated to
wanting to come back intoministry, but was really
struggling to find a churchwhere I felt like I could be
like, I, it was just very, verydifficult. And, you know, and
(32:22):
I'm just like, I think it wasn'tuntil I had conversations with
people, had a conversation withsomeone who was a local pastor,
you know, trying to just networkand make connections. And he was
a good guy. And but he he wasjust he was like, you know, have
you considered maybe you justneed to be a fantastic lay
person, Like, be a lay leader,be an elder. You know?
(32:46):
Maybe maybe you need to bewilling to let go of ministry as
like a thing. That was a reallytough question to wrestle with
because I felt very called. Dofeel very called to ministry.
But, Yeah. I think I was I thinkby the time I finally
interviewed with you andinterviewed for here, the
(33:07):
position here, I was like I waslike, alright.
I got one more, like, month orsomething like that. And then
I'm I'm getting a job
Cameron (33:16):
Mhmm.
Luke (33:17):
Doing something. Mhmm. I'll still keep doing the job
search, but I'll stop doing,like, full time jobs hunting and
other things. I'm gonna startworking elsewhere. And then
Mhmm.
Because I had had enough of a,what do you call it? Severance
and living with my parentsallowed me to kind of just focus
full time on job hunting. I'dwake up and put out, like, 4 or
(33:40):
5 resumes and cover letters aday and hear back from 1 maybe.
It was abysmal. Mhmm.
Cameron (33:46):
So yeah. What were some of the things that you if you
recall, like, your relation therelational dynamic between you
and the lord during that time.Like, were there specific things
like your in your prayer lifethat you were saying to him,
(34:10):
asking him, what he was sayingto you or that you felt or sense
that him saying to you, but,like, what was it like, what was
it like in the waiting?
Luke (34:22):
Freaking tough. Yeah. It was really tough because I I did
a lot of wrestling because Iwanted I was getting to a point
I actually I actually was havinga little bit I was struggling
with some some a little bit ofdoubt in my face. And I was just
(34:45):
like, where is all of thiscoming from? And I talked with a
friend, and I I read a a reallygood book.
And I was just like, I becameconvicted. I actually wasn't
having any significant faithdoubt. I just was not happy with
the way my life was working out.And I wanted to jump ship and
live life without concerningmyself about what God wanted for
(35:06):
me. Mhmm.
And be able to just live my lifewithout worrying about
consequences or morality or, mycalling or anything like that
because that just would havebeen easier. So there was this
really deep wrestling that wasgoing on in my soul of, like,
man, it would be way easier tojust do it my way.
Cameron (35:26):
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Luke (35:28):
And, like, it may it came out in me saying, well, maybe I
wanna not Maybe I don't I don'tknow about all this Christianity
stuff. And I had to sit and Iwas like, where did all that
come from? Out of the middle ofnowhere. Not something I
regularly experience. And somedeep heart searching, and I was
like, this isn't actually doubt.
(35:49):
It's not actually a concern ofmy faith. It's a rebellion of my
heart over the circumstances Ifind myself in. Mhmm. You know?
And I had to I had to repent ofthat and, like, resubmit myself
to god's will and his timing andall of that.
Yeah. That was really tough.Yeah. But it was also a season
(36:10):
where there was a lot of I hadto give god a lot of I had to
let go of a lot of, like, ofwhat was and what used to be.
And then a lot of just, beingwilling to say yes to what was
(36:32):
next.
And I didn't know what that wasgoing to be. Mhmm. Because,
like, a hunting for pastoralposition can take 6 months to a
year. You know? And that's along time to be looking for a
job.
So, I just I I was at that time,I was also reading, a little bit
(36:54):
of Jordan Peterson in his secondbook. Which Jordan Peterson,
like, I have complicatedthoughts about. He's not like
I'm not referencing him here as,like, some sort of Christian
hero or something like that. Sodon't don't misconstrue my
Cameron (37:10):
story. Completely clear if he's Christian.
Luke (37:12):
Yeah. Yeah. So don't don't misconstrue my quoting of him
as, like, some sort ofendorsement of everything he
says. But he has his idea of,like, chaos is typically
ascribed as a really negativething when we have chaos. But he
pointed out he's like, well,chaos is actually just
(37:33):
potential.
It's when you have order orstructure that's been destroyed,
you have a lot of chaos. And inthat chaos is the opportunity
for something new.
Cameron (37:44):
Mhmm.
Luke (37:45):
And a lot of and I immediately saw how that is like
it's a very biblical idea. Godcreated out of chaos. He created
order. And there were thingsthat were both God both raised
things up and he destroyedthings. There was this always
this cycle.
And I there was this I was justlike, what my life had been up
(38:08):
to then in Chicago and way how Ithought my, pastoral life and
where I was gonna live was allcame crushing down, and I was
left with, like, a lot of chaos.But then I had to sit in the
hopefulness of waiting for thatpotential opportunity that that
represented. And just being alot of, like, I spent I went on
(38:32):
a lot of walks, a lot of prayerwalks with the Lord and just
saying, like, what's next andjust trying to be patient.
Cameron (38:40):
Mhmm. Yeah. I think there is a lot to be said about
what happens in the waiting.Mhmm. Because there is just like
a multi multiplicity ofdirections that the waiting can
(39:01):
take you.
Yeah. The waiting can take youinto some deep, dark waters.
Luke (39:06):
Yeah.
Cameron (39:09):
You know, even to the point, like you said, of, like,
do I even wanna believe
Luke (39:16):
this? Do I wanna do this?
Cameron (39:18):
Do I wanna do this? Right. I'm waiting for this, but
do I like, that could be a darkplace.
Luke (39:24):
Nope. It was very dark. Yeah. It was very, very dark. I
had to have some friends whoreally helped me walk out of
that.
Cameron (39:30):
Yeah. And but then, you know, the waiting can also, in
different types of waiting Mhmm.Or different types of seasons,
they're you know, it can do theopposite. Yeah.
Luke (39:42):
It can
Cameron (39:42):
send you in a different direction.
Luke (39:43):
Mhmm.
Cameron (39:44):
You know? And so it's not well, I think it we would be
wise. The church would be wiseto recognize the reality and the
tendency of both of thosethings.
Luke (39:59):
Mhmm.
Cameron (40:01):
Or both of those patterns in people that in the
waiting, you can the waiting canbe extraordinarily, like,
difficult, obviously. Yeah. Butit can bring it we have to
address what happens in thewaiting, not just that we're
(40:22):
waiting.
Luke (40:22):
Right.
Cameron (40:23):
Like, that's where we minister to people. Mhmm. It is
in the waiting.
Luke (40:26):
Yep. Because out of that season came a lot of there was a
lot of good things that came outof that. It was super
uncomfortable. But, like, theability to, like, it I felt like
there was a season where, like,the Lord was helping me
understand the past andeverything that I was coming out
(40:48):
of.
Cameron (40:48):
Mhmm.
Luke (40:49):
And then there was a lot of wrestling with him in. Am am
I willing to go where he'sleading me into the future? And
and then it was honestly justfaith building. And so it was a
lot of hills and valleys, and itwas but it was, it was good for
my soul. I wouldn't have chosento have done it though.
(41:10):
If if someone could have said,like, Luke, you wanna sign up
for this, like, season ofwaiting? No. I I'd rather have
it now. Yep. No.
I'm good. Mhmm.
Cameron (41:19):
Yeah. None of us wants to wait No. For those things.
Mhmm. Yeah.
But, yeah, what happens in thewaiting is is, I think where the
where the discussion really is.Like, how do you how do you how
do you wait? Almost like, youknow, how we can talk we we talk
(41:43):
about maybe, like, there's someit's a really preachable thing
to talk about how to sufferwell. Mhmm. Because suffering is
such a universal humanexperience
Luke (41:57):
Mhmm.
Cameron (41:58):
That, it kind of demands that pastors and
preachers bring some context toit Yep. From the pulpit. And, I
feel like the same the same inwhen you're when you're talking
(42:19):
about or when people are in theseason of waiting. It's like,
how do you how do we wait well?
Luke (42:23):
Mhmm.
Cameron (42:24):
Or how do we wait for the Lord? Yeah. And, that could
be, you know, how, like, how dowe wait for the next job? How do
we wait for a sense of calling?How do we wait for a child?
How do we wait for, how do wewait for a loved one who doesn't
(42:47):
know the Lord? Mhmm. How do wewait for provision or how do we
wait for healing? Like, how dowe wait well? Yeah.
What might it look like to waitpoorly? How do I know whether or
not what I'm doing in thisseason of waiting that I'm
experiencing is a good thing ora bad thing or a neutral thing
(43:12):
or whatever. But, yeah, thatmust have been really I'm just
only I can only imagine onlyimagine. Well, I guess I can't
only imagine. I've been I'vebeen a part of closing of a
church before.
Mhmm. But, not quite the samething as you experienced. But
(43:34):
that I can I can imagine, youknow, if we had to make the
decision to close conduit Oh,yeah? How just Painful. Yeah.
How painful Yeah. That would be.Yeah. And and and, yeah, even
(43:58):
asking the question about, like,what am I gonna do next? Because
you never imagine at least I Ihave not imagined.
Luke (44:08):
Mhmm.
Cameron (44:09):
The only thing that I have imagined on the other side
of conduit is retirement. Yeah.It doesn't mean that it, like,
I'm gonna retire from here.Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't.
I don't know. Right. Like
Luke (44:21):
But you're not you're you're not constantly coming up
with exit plans.
Cameron (44:25):
Right. I Right. You know, I'm just like and so to
have that just like, here it is.Mhmm. It's over.
Yeah. So quickly. I I can I Ican see how, even just thinking
about that possibility? I cansee how you get to the other
(44:45):
side of that decision and you'reand you're like, I don't know if
I wanna do this Yeah. Again.
Right. I don't know if I wannawait into that. Yeah. I don't
know if I wanna wait for that.I'd rather wait for something
else, Lord.
Luke (45:01):
So Yeah. Because I just remember having you know,
there's like I feel like there's2 types of church planners. The
ones that are, like, love it andthey're rock stars, and they're
like they feel like their churchis just going from one success
to another, and then the otheris discouraged church planters.
(45:22):
Mhmm. And I met a lot ofdiscouraged church planters and
Mhmm.
Man, even as you were justtalking there, I was just like,
oh, yeah. Like, it was toughbecause some people, when we
closed the church, like, got it.They were just like, yeah. Like,
get it. It's probably a wisedecision.
Other people were really, reallyupset. They're like, why would
(45:44):
you close this church? It's sucha great community. It was really
hard to say goodbye to myfriends and my wife out there.
And Mhmm.
That was and that sucked. Yeah.Sorry. I'm having my own
personal reflection there, butthat was just a, I wouldn't
wanna do that again.
Cameron (46:03):
Yeah. No. Definitely not. Definitely not. Well,
thanks for sharing that.
I mean Yeah. Because I that'syou said, like, that is the
stuff of Advent.
Luke (46:14):
Mhmm.
Cameron (46:14):
That's an Advent story.
Luke (46:16):
Oh, yeah. Like, it was we we sang, like, I the the part
that sticks out to me the mostis that song by, I think it was
by King's Kaleidoscope or SingTeam, one of those churches or
one of those, kind of indieChristian bands that kind of
(46:40):
does worship ish music. Theythat song, all glory to Christ,
that's set to, old lane sign.You know, all Mhmm. Mhmm.
And that was the last song Ithink we sang for our church.
Mhmm. And, like, at that point,it was me and Matt, the other
(47:01):
pastor, singing. So we didn'teven have anybody that could
really sing Mhmm. Leaving thatsong.
And we just sang that to alittle camera, and it's just,
like, kind of a declaration of,like, let this be for god's
glory. Mhmm. We just don't knowwhere it's gonna bow go. And it
was a very difficult season ofwaiting. But, you know, it's a
(47:26):
and it's it I just had nevereven put together, like, the
fact that, like, that was rightin.
Well, I mean, it was super sadthat it was right before
Christmas. I was like, ChristmasEve. I remember going back to my
church and people being like,oh, how's, like, your church
going? I'm like, oh, we weclosed yesterday. Mhmm.
(47:46):
Mhmm. That was fun. But the Lordwas faithful in it. And that's
the story of so much of the oldtestament is people, Abraham,
waiting for his son, Isaac.
Cameron (47:59):
Mhmm.
Luke (48:01):
The people of Israel waiting for deliverance and then
waiting in the wilderness andGod being faithful. And just how
do we be with God in thatwaiting?
Cameron (48:13):
Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna ask and and, I mean,
you had talked a little bitabout it, but like what you felt
like you learned most from Godabout God or whatever in the
waiting?
I don't know if you, if there,if like you've ever reflected on
(48:38):
that. Like, what was it? Whatwhat in that season did what in
that season did God accomplishin you that would have been next
to impossible had you not had towait like you did.
Luke (48:56):
Yeah. That God is God regardless of what I want or how
things work out. That, like, I'mto follow god not because of,
like, not because I want thelife that I want or I want him
to bless my life or just givehim or use him as, like, a
(49:17):
sanctioning tool for mydecisions.
Cameron (49:20):
Mhmm.
Luke (49:20):
But that, like, I have to follow God when it sucks. Mhmm.
Because he's God. Mhmm. Notbecause he makes me happy or
Mhmm.
Cameron (49:29):
And he's in the suck.
Luke (49:30):
What?
Cameron (49:31):
He's in the suck too.
Luke (49:32):
The suck. Right? Like, he's in there. He's in the midst
of that with me.
Cameron (49:36):
Mhmm.
Luke (49:37):
And, like, god is god regardless of my feelings.
Cameron (49:43):
Mhmm.
Luke (49:44):
And, like, you know, not that I had not ex you know,
there was different differenttypes of obstacles and hurdles
and things that I've experiencedin life. But that was one where
I was just like, I was very muchthere was this part of my soul
that needed to let go offollowing God because I, because
he made me feel good or becausehe did good things for me or,
(50:09):
because I felt like I just wassupposed to or expected to. I
had to remake the decision that,no. I'm following god because
he's god of the universe.
Cameron (50:19):
Mhmm.
Luke (50:20):
And he's deserving of that Mhmm. Regardless of how my life
works out.
Cameron (50:24):
Mhmm. Yeah. It's good stuff. Yeah. Yeah.
The practicality of Advent andwaiting, and what we learned in
those moments is pretty much, II it's pretty expansive. So we
Yeah. Can have lots ofconversation about that. Well,
(50:46):
we I mean, we hope that I hopedo you have any other thoughts
on that? Or
Luke (50:51):
No. Not really. I think that's probably enough for one
episode. Yeah. It's like wecovered quite a bit of ground.
Right. Yeah. Maybe in the nextepisode, I'll ask you where
you've waited. I feel like wedon't quite have enough time to
ask you the similar question.
Cameron (51:06):
Yeah. Yeah. I definitely know that answer.
Yeah. But, yeah, maybe we'llcover that in the next episode.
Little maybe series on Adventand waiting and expectation and
seeing the Lord or waiting forthe Lord to move, and, hope you
enjoyed today's episode. Mhmm.Like it. Share it. Subscribe to
(51:30):
it.
Mhmm. Wherever it is that you'relistening or watching watching
it, that would be a greatblessing to us. I was I'm
noticing our view count latelyis lower Mhmm. Since we took
that break.
Luke (51:44):
Yeah. I think that consistency Yep. You know?
Cameron (51:47):
And so help to, kinda pump those numbers up. These are
rookie numbers here. These arerookie numbers.
Luke (51:53):
Like our other numbers are
Cameron (51:54):
really big. Yeah. Yeah. But, anyway, so thanks for
listening. We'll, we'll we'llcatch you next time.
I'm to follow God, not because I want the life that I
want, or I want him to bless mylife, or use him as, like, a
sanctioning tool for mydecisions.
Cameron (00:09):
Mhmm.
Luke (00:10):
But I have to follow God when it sucks because he's God.
Welcome to The Uncut Podcast.I'm pastor Luke.
Cameron (00:22):
And I am pastor Cameron.
Luke (00:23):
And this is The Uncut Podcast for honest, uncut
conversations about faith, life,and history.
Cameron (00:31):
Welcome back to the studio. Yep. That's what we're
calling it now. Yep. The studio.
The studio. It's no longer justthe room that we do the podcast
in because we've got lights.
Luke (00:41):
We got lights. We're official now.
Cameron (00:43):
Yeah. It it is it is a vibe.
Luke (00:45):
Mhmm.
Cameron (00:46):
It feels nice in here. Yeah. Thank you for doing all
this Oh. Hard work. Yeah.
Appreciate it.
Luke (00:51):
It's fun hard work, though.
Cameron (00:53):
It yeah. There's a maybe it represents one of the
fun parts of lots there's lotsof fun parts of ministry, but
one of the fun things we get todo.
Luke (01:02):
Yeah. So those who watch us on YouTube don't have to
maybe we don't look quite aspasty anymore. So maybe it's
slightly better more appealingto watch now. Yeah. Not that
we've gotten beaut morebeautiful or anything
Cameron (01:16):
like that. But And, today, we're we're we're
matching in our outfits. We are.Black hoodies for both of us.
Luke (01:24):
You
Cameron (01:24):
got your conduit hoodie on. That's right. We do have a
merch store at ConduitMinistries dot com.
Luke (01:31):
Yep. We don't have any uncut stuff there yet. No. We
don't. But we could eventually.
Cameron (01:36):
Yeah. But That would be. We could have stuff there.
Luke (01:40):
We could. Yeah. Yeah. But if you're part of the conduit
community and you want somestuff, want some swag Yeah.
People call it swag anymore.
Cameron (01:49):
I don't know. But Sherry wondered if we call if
people call it merch anymore.What did they call it? I don't
know.
Luke (01:56):
Somebody in the comments. Let us know Yeah. What we're
supposed to call it. Right. Butwe got some mugs and hoodies and
things like that.
If you buy a hoodie, buy a sizeup.
Cameron (02:05):
Buy a size up.
Luke (02:06):
Buy a size up. We're learning that the hard way. So
Cameron (02:09):
Yeah. Mhmm. But But, anyway, yeah, here we are. So if
you don't listen on YouTube orwatch on YouTube, pop over there
and even just check out thedifference between episodes that
we have done before Mhmm. Andones that we're doing now.
Yep. So, well, it's the adventseason.
Luke (02:34):
It is.
Cameron (02:34):
We are officially in advent season this year Mhmm.
Which seems unreal. December.We're in December. Yeah.
And because Thanksgiving waslate this year, Advent was also
late this year. But Advent is
Luke (02:56):
a season. Yeah. Because people outside the church don't
say Advent.
Cameron (03:02):
Is it Christmas?
Luke (03:03):
No. Christmas. I I would say I would even wager that
there's a good amount ofchurches that don't even say
Advent. They say Christmas too.
Cameron (03:08):
Yeah.
Luke (03:09):
So, like, yeah, you might be like, what's what's Advent?
Or maybe you have a sense ofwhat Advent is. But Right. Yeah.
I
Cameron (03:17):
had a seminary professor who was kind of like
an old church guy. Mhmm.
Luke (03:23):
And
Cameron (03:23):
he was very passionate Oh. About the church that he
led. He was also a pastor.
Luke (03:34):
Mhmm. The
Cameron (03:35):
church that he led during the advent season
Luke (03:38):
Mhmm.
Cameron (03:39):
He would not sing Christmas carols. Mhmm. And he
said it was a really big painpoint for his church.
Luke (03:46):
I bet. I bet that bugged a lot of people.
Cameron (03:49):
Uh-huh. Mhmm. Because Advent in, like, the classic
liturgical sense is the period,Before Christmas. Before
Christmas. It is the waiting.
Mhmm. It is the anticipation. Itis the coming Yep. Of the
Christ.
Luke (04:05):
Right. And then Christmas was more than a day as well. It
was 12 days. 12 days. That's 12days of Christmas is not the 12
days leading up to Christmas.
No. It's the 12 days ofChristmas. Yes. We we
shortchange ourselves in how wecelebrate Christmas in
Cameron (04:19):
the days. We do. And then there's even, there's an
additional liturgical seasonafter Christmas.
Luke (04:28):
Mhmm.
Cameron (04:29):
Season of epiphany, which marks or is supposed to
mark the, coming of the wise menYep. To visit, Jesus and Mary
and Joseph, which is alsosomething that we don't
celebrate. Right. So, if you goif you're in high church Yep. So
(04:53):
that would be like Catholic
Luke (04:55):
Anglican Lutheran.
Cameron (04:56):
Anglican. Some Lutherans.
Luke (04:57):
Some and some Anglicans.
Cameron (04:59):
And some Anglicans. I don't know about the orthodox.
Do you know? Yeah. Do you knowlike, are they in
Luke (05:07):
They
Cameron (05:07):
Are they following that type of liturgical calendar? I
don't know enough about them.
Luke (05:11):
It's it's pretty it's similar. It doesn't line up. So,
like, it doesn't, I think, like,the days are different. Or I
know they're definitelydifferent for Easter. I know
Orthodox Easter is on adifferent week than, everybody
else.
That's right. Don't remember ifthe same is true for Christmas
(05:32):
or not. And I don't remember ifthey if they call it advent or
if it's something else. Mhmm.But it's analogous, though.
The the structure is analogous,so
Cameron (05:42):
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So if you are in any of those
traditions, you likely docelebrate maybe a little bit
more closely those seasons
Luke (05:53):
Mhmm.
Cameron (05:55):
Than modern Protestantism does.
Luke (05:57):
Yeah. At least your your liturgy, your Sunday liturgy
will reflect that more.
Cameron (06:02):
Uh-huh.
Luke (06:03):
You'll have this idea of advent and then Christmas and
that being kind of more thanjust one singular day or Sunday
Cameron (06:12):
Mhmm.
Luke (06:12):
And that kind of the things that happen after that.
And that's what the that's whatadvent is, is this idea of
waiting for Christmas to come.So even calling it the Christmas
season is a little bit, it'smisleading if you're following
that traditional calendar.
Cameron (06:31):
Mhmm. Yeah. Because the word advent comes from the Latin
word
Luke (06:35):
Mhmm.
Cameron (06:36):
Adventus Yep. Which means coming
Luke (06:39):
Yep. Right? Or arrival
Cameron (06:41):
Or arrival.
Luke (06:42):
Or happening or something like that.
Cameron (06:43):
Yeah. So the whole season is based around this
sense of waiting. Yep. Like,waiting for something to come.
Mhmm.
And it's not really a I guessit's more of, like, it's not a
something.
Luke (07:02):
Yeah. It's someone.
Cameron (07:03):
It's a someone. Right? The coming of the coming of the
messiah. And so because we're inAdvent and we're preaching on
Advent and we're thinking aboutAdvent, we thought we would take
maybe a few episodes even Yeah.And just talk on those themes
Luke (07:25):
Mhmm.
Cameron (07:26):
The themes of waiting Yep. Of expectation
Luke (07:29):
Mhmm.
Cameron (07:29):
Of coming. And, and just see where it, see where it
takes us.
Luke (07:36):
Yeah. What would you say like, I think I think this is a
bigger conversation when we getcloser to, like, Easter. Because
when we've done, we've done someacknowledgment or celebration of
lent in our church. And Lent inAsh Wednesday, those those in
(07:57):
particular tend to have a littlebit more, people tend to have a
little bit more baggage withthose if they grew up in a very,
non denom, low church, not awhole lot of you know, it can
feel like isn't this tooCatholic? I don't think we get
that as much when we celebrateadvent because it's Christmas.
Cameron (08:21):
Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Luke (08:22):
But, like, what would you say to someone who's just like
you're using this Latin word,it's advent. Like, are you guys
just protestants? Or are youguys just Catholics pretending
to be nondenominationalpreachers for some reason? Like,
what's, you know, what's what'sgoing on? Like
Cameron (08:38):
Yeah. I mean, of course, like, an argument can
always be made that we're justfighting over definitions. Yeah.
You're you know, we're justfighting over, like, who gets
the right to describe, who getsthe right then, who gets the
right to name the season thatwe're in, and what is the season
(09:00):
all about. Yeah.
Because at, if you were to takea person who was saying
something like that, like, well,why are you using this Latin
word? What are you trying to beCatholic or whatever? And you
got down into what they werereally upset about
Luke (09:20):
Mhmm.
Cameron (09:20):
Or what they were really questioning. It wouldn't
be about the they they wouldn'tbe questioning the celebration
of the season. Like, weshouldn't celebrate the season.
Luke (09:31):
Right. Because it's likely I don't I don't know. I guess
I'm having a picture of somebodyin my mind. Like, not someone
specific, but I'm just kind ofattributing some attributes. I'm
wagering that the type of personmight also be, you know, kind of
like, yeah.
Let's not take Christ out ofChristmas. Like, don't don't
like, it's all about Jesus.Like, not talking to someone
who's anti Jesus, anti Christ,like, is all about Jesus would,
(09:55):
you know, sent would bealongside of just, like, let's
not, you know, let's not make itx mas. Let's make it Christmas
or whatever.
Cameron (10:03):
You wanna make it Christosmas? Christosmas?
Luke (10:07):
I heard that argument when I was in high school is that the
x is more close to the Greek forChrist, and so is a more
accurate Yeah. Keeping Christ inChristmas. But, anyways, so
yeah. Like, we say Advent in ourchurch, and we sell we sell
celebrate Advent, but we also,like, say Christmas and things
Cameron (10:29):
like that.
Luke (10:31):
But, like, other churches like, if you go to pretty much
any church right now, they'redoing a Christmas sermon series.
Yep. They've got somethingthat's Christmas themed. They've
decorated it. Yeah.
We're just calling it Advent.Yeah.
Cameron (10:44):
I think well, one of the reasons that I like to
maintain that language isbecause I think that the theme
of waiting, the theme of, like,the anticipation of god coming
Luke (11:00):
Mhmm.
Cameron (11:01):
Or his deliverance or his arrival or his presence or
his promises or whatever is notjust relegated to the Christmas
story. Yeah. It's not just aLuke chapter 2 Mhmm. Theme. You
know, it's it feels to me likeyou like, we could make the
(11:24):
argument that, that we couldmake the argument that the theme
of advent is a theme that startsin Genesis 3.
Luke (11:37):
Mhmm.
Cameron (11:39):
Where where at the fall, God is already all already
foreshadowing or, forecasting,however you wanna call it.
Luke (11:53):
Yeah. Yeah.
Cameron (11:54):
He's already foreshadowing the the
deliverance that will comeRight. Through Christ.
Luke (12:00):
Yeah. That passage you're talking about is often called
the protoevangelion.
Cameron (12:05):
Right.
Luke (12:06):
And is, you know, god gives a curse, but then he gives
a small little promise that'ssandwiched in there. Right? He
says, there will come adescendant of Eve Mhmm. Who will
rise up
Cameron (12:16):
Mhmm.
Luke (12:17):
Who will crush the serpent's head
Cameron (12:18):
Yep.
Luke (12:19):
But the serpent will strike his heel. Yep. And that
is considered by theologians formany, many centuries to have
referred to the eventual comingof Christ.
Cameron (12:28):
Right. So I don't know. It feels to me but tell me what
you think that, like, all nowand then all of humanity after
the proto Yamagelion, all ofhumanity is looking towards this
moment Mhmm. Where the messiahcomes, where the deliverer
comes.
Luke (12:48):
Mhmm.
Cameron (12:49):
And so all of creation looks towards it, actually. And
so all of the old testament isadvent. Mhmm. The whole old
testament is this is like a theseason of advent. Yeah.
Where's the Messiah? Where's theMessiah? Where's the deliverer?
Where's the deliverer? Where'sthe one that will make all
things right?
Yep. Yep. And then I guess you'dbe like, well, okay. The new
(13:13):
testament comes and Jesus isthere. Okay.
We don't need to we don't needto wait anymore. We don't need
to celebrate Advent anymore.Mhmm. But Jesus himself, before
he ascended back into heaven
Luke (13:28):
Mhmm.
Cameron (13:28):
After the resurrection, was like, wait wait for my
return. Yes. I'm coming back.Look for my return. Right.
Live as though I'm returning.Mhmm. Because I am. And so this
there's only, like, a really 2,like, little blips of non Advent
(13:50):
life Mhmm. In the garden beforethe fall
Luke (13:55):
Mhmm.
Cameron (13:57):
And during the earthly ministry of Jesus.
Luke (14:01):
Right. Like, when Christ is saying, like, why would they
fast when the bridegroom is withthem?
Cameron (14:05):
Right.
Luke (14:05):
But there will be a day when they will fast
Cameron (14:07):
Exactly. When I
Luke (14:07):
am no longer here.
Cameron (14:08):
Exactly. So you're you're talking about 2 little
blips of time Yep. In biblicalhistory where where humanity is
not in some season of Advent. SoI want to celebrate Advent. I
want to, still use that term
Luke (14:29):
Mhmm.
Cameron (14:29):
Because I think it is a major and significant
metanarrative in scripture.
Luke (14:38):
Yeah. Yeah. I think it's there's definitely a way in
which you can read you can readthe old testament. And if you
just look at, the chosen son
Cameron (14:53):
Mhmm.
Luke (14:53):
Like, theme in the old patriarchs and the old testament
and Abraham's almost sacrificeof Isaac. You can even go to,
there's a small blip where Moseseven, offered to sacrifice
himself for a moment. There'sall these places where there
(15:15):
there's there's these differentimages of the chosen son, the
chosen seed, and then there'sthe chosen king through all of
and then all of that is allsupposed to be creating the
sense of drama of, like, is thisthe chosen king? Is this the
chosen seed? Is this the chosenson?
And the answer always ends upbeing no. Even if they're really
(15:38):
great like Moses or somethinglike that, they still somehow
fall short of being the one whocrushes the serpent head Mhmm.
Until that is gets answered inthe gospels. But then you see
that same advent language beingused by Paul when he begins to
say all of creation is ingroaning and longing. It's in
(16:01):
the pains of childbirth untilit's redemption, the redemption
of our bodies, our souls, andall of creation up in Christ's
second coming.
Cameron (16:10):
Mhmm.
Luke (16:11):
There is this I don't know where this term, like,
specifically originated. So iteither originated with arth
Arthurian legend legends. Solegends to do with, like, King
Arthur and the round table, theknights, Camelot, all that. Or
it may have originated withChrist and then was co opted and
(16:34):
used in that, using the used inthose legends. I don't know
which one came first or where itcame from.
But I know that there is this,one of the collection of the
Arthurian legends is called theonce and future king. This idea
of King Arthur embodies he wasthe king of England. And so he
(16:59):
once was the king, and then hewill be the future king of
England so as much as everymonarch or king embodies those
virtues and the essence of KingArthur.
Cameron (17:11):
Mhmm.
Luke (17:11):
I saw a, a book and it was titled The Once and Future
Coming of Christ. And I waslike, I really, really like that
idea because Christ has comealready Mhmm. But is also coming
again.
Cameron (17:28):
Mhmm.
Luke (17:28):
And is coming into our hearts every single day. Every
day that we open ourselves upand invite god into our day to
day life, there's an invitationfor him to be present and dwell
among us and for us to abide inhim. Mhmm. So I I love that
really poetic language of theonce and future coming of Christ
(17:50):
because it wraps up that factthat we're celebrating that
Christ did come, but then we'realso hearkening to the fact that
Christ will come again.
Cameron (17:59):
Mhmm. Mhmm. Right. And I think in the in Advent in
Advent celebration or in the Idon't know. I was gonna when you
the the problem is that we onlytalk about Advent once a year.
Yeah. And so when you do talkabout Advent only once a year
(18:23):
during the Christmas season,then it feels like, well, you
there's there's so much that youcould unpack about the huge
theme of Advent in the bib inbiblical history, pre Jesus.
Luke (18:45):
Mhmm.
Cameron (18:46):
But also everything every bit of hope that we have,
every bit of, like every bit ofhope that we have is hope for is
hope in the midst of Advent.It's hope for the future coming
Yeah. Of Christ. It's hope forour eternal salvation. It's hope
(19:06):
for our, like, the redemption ofour circumstances Mhmm.
And of our souls. And so I whatI was gonna say is that one of
the things that leaves mewanting more during the advent
season is to also preachspecifically on or lead or
(19:31):
talks, you know, morespecifically on the second
advent.
Luke (19:36):
Mhmm.
Cameron (19:38):
To more fully root advent as a comprehensive
biblical theme Yeah. Rather thanjust like a Luke 2 Yeah. Type of
theme.
Luke (19:50):
Mhmm. And
Cameron (19:53):
maybe, you know, maybe that's what we need to do. Maybe
we need to have an advent series
Luke (19:58):
Next year's gonna be on Revelation.
Cameron (19:59):
In July.
Luke (20:00):
Advent. You know?
Cameron (20:02):
Yeah. You have an advent c series in July. Mhmm.
And you make people reallyconfused Yeah. About, like wait
a second.
Luke (20:11):
Advent in July.
Cameron (20:12):
Yeah. Pull out the advent wreath. Light some advent
candles. You know? Yeah.
And, I mean, maybe, like,intentionally use the oddity of
the season Mhmm. To paint areally comprehensive picture.
Luke (20:34):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think because it's, you know, you can
get really caught up in the,like, rehearsal of the first
coming of Christ. The Luke 2,Christ being born, Mary,
Bethlehem, the, stable, all thatstuff.
And I think what that like, partof that rehearsing and one of
(20:56):
the reasons I like using themore traditional terms and
leaning into, church history andchurch tradition is I like to
know that we're participating insomething that the church has
been doing for a long time.
Cameron (21:11):
Mhmm.
Luke (21:11):
That we're kind of retelling the same story. And
that the story is ultimatelymeant to not just remind us of
what has happened, but get us tobe in a place where we can see
how they how that wasexperienced and then overlay our
own waiting on top of the story.Mhmm. So that we're like, you
(21:36):
know because there is somethingabout that story of, like, Mary
and Joseph being in a veryvulnerable position, traveling
to Bethlehem. They're rejected.
They can't get into the inns.There's no place for them to
stay. They're kinda out on theirown. It was really interesting,
(21:58):
actually. I because I just did alast week, did a portion out of
Luke.
Was that Luke 3? Where Mary andJoseph go to the temple to make
sacrifices. And there's a verysmall phrase where it says that
Mary and Joseph made sacrificesfor themselves, when really the
(22:21):
the sacrifices it wasmentioning, the rights of
purification were really meantjust for Mary because she had
gone through the thing ofchildbirth. But many
commentators look at that andsay it's a good signal that
Joseph had to participate inhelping deliver the baby, which
would have not been a thing thatJoseph would have normally have
(22:44):
done. There would have been amidwife or something like that,
but there may not have been amidwife because Joseph himself
also had to go through those,purity rituals that were
mentioned in the passage.
So they're potentially just allon their own, and they're in
this likely cave with animalsgiving birth. And but in the
middle of all of that messinessis like this hope. Mhmm. And,
(23:08):
like, we can resonate with thehumanness of that. Yeah.
And wanting to say, okay. We'rein the middle of my messy,
uncertain life. Do I Yeah. Do Ineed hope? Do I need Christ to
show up in the middle of
Cameron (23:25):
Yeah. Totally, like, missed expectations about life.
Like, I don't know that Mary orJoseph ever had a dream that
they would become pregnant inthat manner.
Luke (23:40):
Right.
Cameron (23:40):
That's the way that they would build their family.
Yep. And if we think rationallyabout it, it seems so miraculous
and beautiful to us now. Mhmm.But like you were just saying,
imagine placing yourself in thestory and just kind of, like,
what crushing circumstances thatmust have.
Luke (24:03):
Well, this and I I think sometimes it's hard to
understand the the socialostracization, the social, like,
stigma that was probablysurrounding them because the
passage doesn't say much aboutit. Mhmm. But it's fair to
assume that possibly some familyand friends were all go like,
yeah. The holy spirit. Right.
(24:24):
Right, Mary. Exactly. Uh-huh,Joseph. You know? Like In
Cameron (24:28):
a similar like like, we all would.
Luke (24:31):
Yeah. Well, people still do that. Right? People still
struggle to accept the virginbirth. Right.
And say, oh, well, it's ratherit's the bible including this,
you know, marriage and child
Cameron (24:43):
out of wedlock. Like and Yeah. Trying to spiritualize
it or romanticize the reality ofit. Mhmm. Yeah.
Yeah. That would be the yeah.That that's that would even be
an interesting that'd be aninteresting podcast topic.
Talking about the like, howcentral to how central to
(25:08):
Christian faith is a virginalconception.
Luke (25:12):
Mhmm.
Cameron (25:17):
Let's come let's come Let's
Luke (25:18):
come back. Let's come back. Let's come back.
Cameron (25:19):
We'll put a pin in that one. It's in most of the creeds.
Luke (25:23):
It is.
Cameron (25:24):
It's It And it's in scripture.
Luke (25:26):
Mhmm. It's confessed pretty pretty staunchly.
Cameron (25:30):
Yeah. Yeah. So okay. Anyway But yeah. Any so, like,
the idea of Advent not beingjust a ancient biblical theme
Mhmm.
But about how applicable it iswhen you overlay those themes on
(25:54):
our our lives Yeah. And howwe're waiting on God for Any
number of things. Yep. And, youknow, we're we're we're we're
waiting, Lord. We're looking foryou.
Mhmm. We're watching for you. Weneed you. We're full of
(26:15):
expectation for you to act onour behalf or in history Mhmm.
Or to do this thing.
That's essentially what we isn'tthat a large part of the the
spirit behind even our prayers?
Luke (26:31):
Yeah.
Cameron (26:32):
It's like, lord, we're waiting for like, lord, would
you please bring healing? Mhmm.Lord, would you please move?
Would you please show yourselfto us? Yep.
Provide, you know, whatever. Itis prayer is an advent. Yep. Is
an advent practice. Mhmm.
(26:53):
And so I think this so then theseason then of Advent or the
celebration of Advent is perhapsone of the most practically
applicable times of the yearYep. For us.
Luke (27:18):
Yeah. Well and it's a because there's the holidays.
Like, one of the things too isthat, like, the holidays are
really difficult for a lot ofpeople. Like, I feel like the
older we get, the more peoplestruggle with the holidays
sometimes because there arepeople who are absent or it's a
(27:42):
place of, like, of wishing wehad, like, a certain family
dynamic and not experiencing orhaving that. Mhmm.
And good grief. It gets dark atwhat in the afternoon?
Cameron (27:57):
5 o'clock.
Luke (27:58):
Yeah. I'm like, that's rough on me. Like, just the
sheer darkness of the wholeseason and and feeling like, you
know, everything kind of hasslows down because particularly
like, if you're listening tothis and you're not getting snow
in the winter, I don't know.I've God bless you. Yeah.
God bless you. Flat your heart.But up here because
Cameron (28:21):
we're getting crushed over there.
Luke (28:22):
We're get we just had a big snowstorm. And, like, it
just slows you down. Mhmm. Youjust can't do as much. Things
close down.
Like, you're just not as active.There's this whole kind of,
like, stopping that happens inthe middle of winter. Mhmm. And
this anticipation for spring andfor renewal and all of that, but
(28:44):
that can't come without Christcoming.
Cameron (28:46):
Yeah. So a question for your own, like, your own
application of Advent andwaiting on God
Luke (28:56):
Mhmm.
Cameron (28:56):
And, like, looking to the future. What would you say
if you had to, like, pinpoint 1or 2 points in your life where
you can remember, like, that youwere actively looking, watching,
waiting, needing, and expecting
Luke (29:17):
Mhmm.
Cameron (29:17):
God to do a miracle or show up or provide or and you
could, like, even just feel inyour soul this sense of, like, I
am just waiting in faith. Hopingin faith.
Luke (29:35):
Yep. Honestly, the most recent one that comes to my mind
and probably one of the biggerones was end of 2020, the church
I was a part of closed becausewe were a church plant in
Chicago. And, we closed, like,we found I've we've we made the
(29:58):
decision to close the churchplant on, like, December, like,
right about now, I think. Mhmm.It was, like, early it was,
like, the first or second weekof December, 2020.
We we were just a small churchplant at that point. We were
struggling. We've been going onfor several years, and COVID had
really just gave us, like, thelast one two punch. And our last
(30:25):
Sunday service was held overZoom in my apartment. It's a
miserable way to end a church.
Mhmm. And I like yeah. It wasthe Sunday before Christmas Eve.
So I think Christmas Eve was,like, on a Tuesday or something
like that. So it was, like, thethat Sunday.
(30:49):
So we packed up all the stuffthat we had left over from that
little Zoom livestream Sundayservice. I packed up all of my
stuff because I didn't have ajust too short of a time for me
to really find gainfulemployment in Chicago, less than
a month's notice. And I couldhave, like, gone and worked at
(31:10):
Starbucks or something likethat, but I was just not I
wasn't even sure I wanted tostay in Chicago long term.
Cameron (31:15):
Mhmm.
Luke (31:16):
So, you know, I was fortunate enough to be able to
go back to my parents. So I howhow old was I? 31? I packed up
all of my stuff and I got home,like, Christmas Eve or something
like that. I'm back at my homechurch.
All my stuff's in boxes, and I'mliving in one of my brother's
(31:36):
rooms while he's away at collegebecause my room's been
repurposed something else. Mhmm.And I have no idea where I'm
gonna go, what I'm gonna do.Where where will I be a pastor?
Will I be a pastor?
Like, all of those questionswere, like, really big. And I
had no idea what was gonnahappen.
Cameron (31:56):
Mhmm.
Luke (31:56):
And that was like a 6 month it was like a solid 6
month job search experiencewhere I was pretty dedicated to
wanting to come back intoministry, but was really
struggling to find a churchwhere I felt like I could be
like, I, it was just very, verydifficult. And, you know, and
(32:22):
I'm just like, I think it wasn'tuntil I had conversations with
people, had a conversation withsomeone who was a local pastor,
you know, trying to just networkand make connections. And he was
a good guy. And but he he wasjust he was like, you know, have
you considered maybe you justneed to be a fantastic lay
person, Like, be a lay leader,be an elder. You know?
(32:46):
Maybe maybe you need to bewilling to let go of ministry as
like a thing. That was a reallytough question to wrestle with
because I felt very called. Dofeel very called to ministry.
But, Yeah. I think I was I thinkby the time I finally
interviewed with you andinterviewed for here, the
(33:07):
position here, I was like I waslike, alright.
I got one more, like, month orsomething like that. And then
I'm I'm getting a job
Cameron (33:16):
Mhmm.
Luke (33:17):
Doing something. Mhmm. I'll still keep doing the job
search, but I'll stop doing,like, full time jobs hunting and
other things. I'm gonna startworking elsewhere. And then
Mhmm.
Because I had had enough of a,what do you call it? Severance
and living with my parentsallowed me to kind of just focus
full time on job hunting. I'dwake up and put out, like, 4 or
(33:40):
5 resumes and cover letters aday and hear back from 1 maybe.
It was abysmal. Mhmm.
Cameron (33:46):
So yeah. What were some of the things that you if you
recall, like, your relation therelational dynamic between you
and the lord during that time.Like, were there specific things
like your in your prayer lifethat you were saying to him,
(34:10):
asking him, what he was sayingto you or that you felt or sense
that him saying to you, but,like, what was it like, what was
it like in the waiting?
Luke (34:22):
Freaking tough. Yeah. It was really tough because I I did
a lot of wrestling because Iwanted I was getting to a point
I actually I actually was havinga little bit I was struggling
with some some a little bit ofdoubt in my face. And I was just
(34:45):
like, where is all of thiscoming from? And I talked with a
friend, and I I read a a reallygood book.
And I was just like, I becameconvicted. I actually wasn't
having any significant faithdoubt. I just was not happy with
the way my life was working out.And I wanted to jump ship and
live life without concerningmyself about what God wanted for
(35:06):
me. Mhmm.
And be able to just live my lifewithout worrying about
consequences or morality or, mycalling or anything like that
because that just would havebeen easier. So there was this
really deep wrestling that wasgoing on in my soul of, like,
man, it would be way easier tojust do it my way.
Cameron (35:26):
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Luke (35:28):
And, like, it may it came out in me saying, well, maybe I
wanna not Maybe I don't I don'tknow about all this Christianity
stuff. And I had to sit and Iwas like, where did all that
come from? Out of the middle ofnowhere. Not something I
regularly experience. And somedeep heart searching, and I was
like, this isn't actually doubt.
(35:49):
It's not actually a concern ofmy faith. It's a rebellion of my
heart over the circumstances Ifind myself in. Mhmm. You know?
And I had to I had to repent ofthat and, like, resubmit myself
to god's will and his timing andall of that.
Yeah. That was really tough.Yeah. But it was also a season
(36:10):
where there was a lot of I hadto give god a lot of I had to
let go of a lot of, like, ofwhat was and what used to be.
And then a lot of just, beingwilling to say yes to what was
(36:32):
next.
And I didn't know what that wasgoing to be. Mhmm. Because,
like, a hunting for pastoralposition can take 6 months to a
year. You know? And that's along time to be looking for a
job.
So, I just I I was at that time,I was also reading, a little bit
(36:54):
of Jordan Peterson in his secondbook. Which Jordan Peterson,
like, I have complicatedthoughts about. He's not like
I'm not referencing him here as,like, some sort of Christian
hero or something like that. Sodon't don't misconstrue my
Cameron (37:10):
story. Completely clear if he's Christian.
Luke (37:12):
Yeah. Yeah. So don't don't misconstrue my quoting of him
as, like, some sort ofendorsement of everything he
says. But he has his idea of,like, chaos is typically
ascribed as a really negativething when we have chaos. But he
pointed out he's like, well,chaos is actually just
(37:33):
potential.
It's when you have order orstructure that's been destroyed,
you have a lot of chaos. And inthat chaos is the opportunity
for something new.
Cameron (37:44):
Mhmm.
Luke (37:45):
And a lot of and I immediately saw how that is like
it's a very biblical idea. Godcreated out of chaos. He created
order. And there were thingsthat were both God both raised
things up and he destroyedthings. There was this always
this cycle.
And I there was this I was justlike, what my life had been up
(38:08):
to then in Chicago and way how Ithought my, pastoral life and
where I was gonna live was allcame crushing down, and I was
left with, like, a lot of chaos.But then I had to sit in the
hopefulness of waiting for thatpotential opportunity that that
represented. And just being alot of, like, I spent I went on
(38:32):
a lot of walks, a lot of prayerwalks with the Lord and just
saying, like, what's next andjust trying to be patient.
Cameron (38:40):
Mhmm. Yeah. I think there is a lot to be said about
what happens in the waiting.Mhmm. Because there is just like
a multi multiplicity ofdirections that the waiting can
(39:01):
take you.
Yeah. The waiting can take youinto some deep, dark waters.
Luke (39:06):
Yeah.
Cameron (39:09):
You know, even to the point, like you said, of, like,
do I even wanna believe
Luke (39:16):
this? Do I wanna do this?
Cameron (39:18):
Do I wanna do this? Right. I'm waiting for this, but
do I like, that could be a darkplace.
Luke (39:24):
Nope. It was very dark. Yeah. It was very, very dark. I
had to have some friends whoreally helped me walk out of
that.
Cameron (39:30):
Yeah. And but then, you know, the waiting can also, in
different types of waiting Mhmm.Or different types of seasons,
they're you know, it can do theopposite. Yeah.
Luke (39:42):
It can
Cameron (39:42):
send you in a different direction.
Luke (39:43):
Mhmm.
Cameron (39:44):
You know? And so it's not well, I think it we would be
wise. The church would be wiseto recognize the reality and the
tendency of both of thosethings.
Luke (39:59):
Mhmm.
Cameron (40:01):
Or both of those patterns in people that in the
waiting, you can the waiting canbe extraordinarily, like,
difficult, obviously. Yeah. Butit can bring it we have to
address what happens in thewaiting, not just that we're
(40:22):
waiting.
Luke (40:22):
Right.
Cameron (40:23):
Like, that's where we minister to people. Mhmm. It is
in the waiting.
Luke (40:26):
Yep. Because out of that season came a lot of there was a
lot of good things that came outof that. It was super
uncomfortable. But, like, theability to, like, it I felt like
there was a season where, like,the Lord was helping me
understand the past andeverything that I was coming out
(40:48):
of.
Cameron (40:48):
Mhmm.
Luke (40:49):
And then there was a lot of wrestling with him in. Am am
I willing to go where he'sleading me into the future? And
and then it was honestly justfaith building. And so it was a
lot of hills and valleys, and itwas but it was, it was good for
my soul. I wouldn't have chosento have done it though.
(41:10):
If if someone could have said,like, Luke, you wanna sign up
for this, like, season ofwaiting? No. I I'd rather have
it now. Yep. No.
I'm good. Mhmm.
Cameron (41:19):
Yeah. None of us wants to wait No. For those things.
Mhmm. Yeah.
But, yeah, what happens in thewaiting is is, I think where the
where the discussion really is.Like, how do you how do you how
do you wait? Almost like, youknow, how we can talk we we talk
(41:43):
about maybe, like, there's someit's a really preachable thing
to talk about how to sufferwell. Mhmm. Because suffering is
such a universal humanexperience
Luke (41:57):
Mhmm.
Cameron (41:58):
That, it kind of demands that pastors and
preachers bring some context toit Yep. From the pulpit. And, I
feel like the same the same inwhen you're when you're talking
(42:19):
about or when people are in theseason of waiting. It's like,
how do you how do we wait well?
Luke (42:23):
Mhmm.
Cameron (42:24):
Or how do we wait for the Lord? Yeah. And, that could
be, you know, how, like, how dowe wait for the next job? How do
we wait for a sense of calling?How do we wait for a child?
How do we wait for, how do wewait for a loved one who doesn't
(42:47):
know the Lord? Mhmm. How do wewait for provision or how do we
wait for healing? Like, how dowe wait well? Yeah.
What might it look like to waitpoorly? How do I know whether or
not what I'm doing in thisseason of waiting that I'm
experiencing is a good thing ora bad thing or a neutral thing
(43:12):
or whatever. But, yeah, thatmust have been really I'm just
only I can only imagine onlyimagine. Well, I guess I can't
only imagine. I've been I'vebeen a part of closing of a
church before.
Mhmm. But, not quite the samething as you experienced. But
(43:34):
that I can I can imagine, youknow, if we had to make the
decision to close conduit Oh,yeah? How just Painful. Yeah.
How painful Yeah. That would be.Yeah. And and and, yeah, even
(43:58):
asking the question about, like,what am I gonna do next? Because
you never imagine at least I Ihave not imagined.
Luke (44:08):
Mhmm.
Cameron (44:09):
The only thing that I have imagined on the other side
of conduit is retirement. Yeah.It doesn't mean that it, like,
I'm gonna retire from here.Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't.
I don't know. Right. Like
Luke (44:21):
But you're not you're you're not constantly coming up
with exit plans.
Cameron (44:25):
Right. I Right. You know, I'm just like and so to
have that just like, here it is.Mhmm. It's over.
Yeah. So quickly. I I can I Ican see how, even just thinking
about that possibility? I cansee how you get to the other
(44:45):
side of that decision and you'reand you're like, I don't know if
I wanna do this Yeah. Again.
Right. I don't know if I wannawait into that. Yeah. I don't
know if I wanna wait for that.I'd rather wait for something
else, Lord.
Luke (45:01):
So Yeah. Because I just remember having you know,
there's like I feel like there's2 types of church planners. The
ones that are, like, love it andthey're rock stars, and they're
like they feel like their churchis just going from one success
to another, and then the otheris discouraged church planters.
(45:22):
Mhmm. And I met a lot ofdiscouraged church planters and
Mhmm.
Man, even as you were justtalking there, I was just like,
oh, yeah. Like, it was toughbecause some people, when we
closed the church, like, got it.They were just like, yeah. Like,
get it. It's probably a wisedecision.
Other people were really, reallyupset. They're like, why would
(45:44):
you close this church? It's sucha great community. It was really
hard to say goodbye to myfriends and my wife out there.
And Mhmm.
That was and that sucked. Yeah.Sorry. I'm having my own
personal reflection there, butthat was just a, I wouldn't
wanna do that again.
Cameron (46:03):
Yeah. No. Definitely not. Definitely not. Well,
thanks for sharing that.
I mean Yeah. Because I that'syou said, like, that is the
stuff of Advent.
Luke (46:14):
Mhmm.
Cameron (46:14):
That's an Advent story.
Luke (46:16):
Oh, yeah. Like, it was we we sang, like, I the the part
that sticks out to me the mostis that song by, I think it was
by King's Kaleidoscope or SingTeam, one of those churches or
one of those, kind of indieChristian bands that kind of
(46:40):
does worship ish music. Theythat song, all glory to Christ,
that's set to, old lane sign.You know, all Mhmm. Mhmm.
And that was the last song Ithink we sang for our church.
Mhmm. And, like, at that point,it was me and Matt, the other
(47:01):
pastor, singing. So we didn'teven have anybody that could
really sing Mhmm. Leaving thatsong.
And we just sang that to alittle camera, and it's just,
like, kind of a declaration of,like, let this be for god's
glory. Mhmm. We just don't knowwhere it's gonna bow go. And it
was a very difficult season ofwaiting. But, you know, it's a
(47:26):
and it's it I just had nevereven put together, like, the
fact that, like, that was rightin.
Well, I mean, it was super sadthat it was right before
Christmas. I was like, ChristmasEve. I remember going back to my
church and people being like,oh, how's, like, your church
going? I'm like, oh, we weclosed yesterday. Mhmm.
(47:46):
Mhmm. That was fun. But the Lordwas faithful in it. And that's
the story of so much of the oldtestament is people, Abraham,
waiting for his son, Isaac.
Cameron (47:59):
Mhmm.
Luke (48:01):
The people of Israel waiting for deliverance and then
waiting in the wilderness andGod being faithful. And just how
do we be with God in thatwaiting?
Cameron (48:13):
Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna ask and and, I mean,
you had talked a little bitabout it, but like what you felt
like you learned most from Godabout God or whatever in the
waiting?
I don't know if you, if there,if like you've ever reflected on
(48:38):
that. Like, what was it? Whatwhat in that season did what in
that season did God accomplishin you that would have been next
to impossible had you not had towait like you did.
Luke (48:56):
Yeah. That God is God regardless of what I want or how
things work out. That, like, I'mto follow god not because of,
like, not because I want thelife that I want or I want him
to bless my life or just givehim or use him as, like, a
(49:17):
sanctioning tool for mydecisions.
Cameron (49:20):
Mhmm.
Luke (49:20):
But that, like, I have to follow God when it sucks. Mhmm.
Because he's God. Mhmm. Notbecause he makes me happy or
Mhmm.
Cameron (49:29):
And he's in the suck.
Luke (49:30):
What?
Cameron (49:31):
He's in the suck too.
Luke (49:32):
The suck. Right? Like, he's in there. He's in the midst
of that with me.
Cameron (49:36):
Mhmm.
Luke (49:37):
And, like, god is god regardless of my feelings.
Cameron (49:43):
Mhmm.
Luke (49:44):
And, like, you know, not that I had not ex you know,
there was different differenttypes of obstacles and hurdles
and things that I've experiencedin life. But that was one where
I was just like, I was very muchthere was this part of my soul
that needed to let go offollowing God because I, because
he made me feel good or becausehe did good things for me or,
(50:09):
because I felt like I just wassupposed to or expected to. I
had to remake the decision that,no. I'm following god because
he's god of the universe.
Cameron (50:19):
Mhmm.
Luke (50:20):
And he's deserving of that Mhmm. Regardless of how my life
works out.
Cameron (50:24):
Mhmm. Yeah. It's good stuff. Yeah. Yeah.
The practicality of Advent andwaiting, and what we learned in
those moments is pretty much, II it's pretty expansive. So we
Yeah. Can have lots ofconversation about that. Well,
(50:46):
we I mean, we hope that I hopedo you have any other thoughts
on that? Or
Luke (50:51):
No. Not really. I think that's probably enough for one
episode. Yeah. It's like wecovered quite a bit of ground.
Right. Yeah. Maybe in the nextepisode, I'll ask you where
you've waited. I feel like wedon't quite have enough time to
ask you the similar question.
Cameron (51:06):
Yeah. Yeah. I definitely know that answer.
Yeah. But, yeah, maybe we'llcover that in the next episode.
Little maybe series on Adventand waiting and expectation and
seeing the Lord or waiting forthe Lord to move, and, hope you
enjoyed today's episode. Mhmm.Like it. Share it. Subscribe to
(51:30):
it.
Mhmm. Wherever it is that you'relistening or watching watching
it, that would be a greatblessing to us. I was I'm
noticing our view count latelyis lower Mhmm. Since we took
that break.
Luke (51:44):
Yeah. I think that consistency Yep. You know?
Cameron (51:47):
And so help to, kinda pump those numbers up. These are
rookie numbers here. These arerookie numbers.
Luke (51:53):
Like our other numbers are
Cameron (51:54):
really big. Yeah. Yeah. But, anyway, so thanks for
listening. We'll, we'll we'llcatch you next time.
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