May 21, 2024 • 52 mins
Join Pastor Luke and Pastor Cameron in the Uncut Podcast as they sip on drinks and engage in unfiltered discussions about faith, life, and ministry. Their conversation revolves around tying Wednesday night classes to Sunday sermons on Ephesians, navigating the challenge of covering profound topics in limited sermon time. Delving into Ephesians chapter four, they explore the roles of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers, debating their universal application and cautioning against self-proclaimed titles. The debate expands to elders, overseers, shepherds, and deacons in the church, emphasizing the importance of understanding these roles despite the lack of explicit modern directives. Drawing parallels between elder and deacon qualifications with a focus on teaching ability, they reference Acts chapter six for biblical insights. Stay tuned for their upcoming episode as they delve deeper into implementing these roles within church structures.
- (00:04) - Introduction
- (00:20) - Drink Sponsors and Bible Study Classes
- (02:58) - Understanding Church Offices
- (04:37) - Exploring Ephesians Chapter 4
- (09:25) - Universal Application of Church Offices
- (12:11) - Hermeneutical Questions on Apostle, Prophet, and Evangelist
- (15:53) - Defining Roles: Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist
- (17:07) - Addressing False Apostles
- (19:30) - Poiment and Church Office Terminology
- (21:51) - Function vs. Title: Apostleship
- (25:31) - Function of a Prophet
- (27:14) - Era of Church Offices
- (32:19) - Role of Prophets in Scripture
- (37:13) - Discussion on Pastors and Teachers
- (39:55) - Different Terms for Church Leaders
- (43:04) - Usage of Titles: Pastor, Reverend, Minister
- (44:30) - Importance of Elder Role
- (48:17) - Structure Passed on by Paul's Protégés
- (49:23) - Contextualization in Theology
- (50:02) - Summary: Church Offices - Elders and Deacons
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Luke (00:05):
Welcome to the uncut podcast. I'm pastor Luke.
Cameron (00:09):
And I'm pastor Cameron.
Luke (00:10):
And this is The Uncut Podcast where we have honest
uncut conversations about faith,life, and ministry, and the
drinks that we have in our handseach and every day.
Cameron (00:19):
Today, it's a Jocko Go. It's Real energy with 0 crash. I
would say it's true. It doesn'tchocolates usually don't give me
the type of crash that arecaffeine based. Yeah.
There's not really any caffeinein this A little bit, but not a
ton. Yeah. But it's also, sorry,Jocko. It's not quite as good as
(00:47):
as long as I have caffeine inthem.
Luke (00:50):
I am drinking a San Pellegrino, my choice of
sparkling natural mineral water.So
Cameron (00:58):
So those are our drink sponsors for today. Those are
Luke (01:00):
our drink sponsors. Hashtag not. Also not. Yep. But
so we, Cameron, we were having,so we've been doing, like, these
Wednesday night classes Mhmm.
For those who maybe do not know.We Sunday mornings, we're
preaching through a book of theBible. Right now, it's the book
(01:21):
of Ephesians, and we've beencarrying that conversation over
into, essentially a Wednesdaynight bible study or class.
Mhmm. And because you kindaplanned out the sermon series
for the series of Ephesians, andyou kinda planned some things to
(01:41):
kinda be covered in the sermonson Sunday and some things to
kinda be talked about onWednesdays.
Not because they werenecessarily not important, but
just because, like, for the sakeof
Cameron (01:53):
The treatment of them Yeah. Required more time.
Luke (01:56):
Right. Mhmm. Or, yeah, or we also we didn't want the
sermon series of Ephesians to bethe entire year. Or
Cameron (02:04):
Right. Yeah. I mean, there's only we play in
Ephesians for 8 weeks, which youthink, oh, it has only has 6
chapters. That should be easy.Chapter a week.
Well, I mean, like, most mostmost preachers or most pastors
who who do this have done thislong enough or preach on a
(02:27):
regular basis would tell youthat, like, preaching through a
book like Ephesians, which isreally there's a lot of depth to
it. Yeah. A lot of stuff there.A lot
Luke (02:41):
of stuff.
Cameron (02:41):
A lot of different topics, lot of, like, lot of
different theological concepts,lots about the church, structure
of the church, theology of thechurch. Mhmm.
Luke (02:52):
Mhmm.
Cameron (02:52):
A lot about, like, practical living and application
to our personal lives. So it'dbe they'd find it difficult to
preach through it in 8 weeks.
Luke (03:02):
Yeah. Well, it's I think, you know, just like just like
when you're in a buffet line,you under you overestimate how
much you can actually getthrough in any given meal or
Sunday service. And so Yeah.
Cameron (03:17):
Well, even last week preaching, I I think I had,
like, a 16 verse. Yeah. I had Ihad it planned for 16 verses.
Luke (03:29):
Mhmm.
Cameron (03:29):
And I only really dealt with 6 Yeah. Versus out of it
because it was there's a lotthere.
Luke (03:37):
Yeah. So Yeah. So that's that's meant that our Wednesday
night classes have kind ofserved as like part 2 to the to
the sermon series almost and aspace for people to kind of go
deeper on some of the stuff thatwe don't have the time to talk
about on a Sunday. Yep. So thislast week, we ended up kind of
(03:59):
talking about the everyone'sfavorite and most interesting
topic in the entire world, whichis church offices and structure.
Cameron (04:09):
Mhmm. Yeah. Not like the architectural layout of your
church. No. Like how manyoffices do you have?
How is your building structured?Not that.
Luke (04:21):
No. Not that.
Cameron (04:22):
But like the offices, in the same way that you would
talk about at like a college,the office of the dean. Sure.
Yeah. Something like the officeof the president. Yeah.
Luke (04:32):
You know? What what positions
Cameron (04:35):
Position. Are there
Luke (04:35):
inside of a church?
Cameron (04:36):
Yeah. Or roles Right. Or whatever.
Luke (04:39):
Like, well, do you want to just maybe read the passage
Yeah. As a good introductionRight. To kinda why and how we
kind of started thatconversation?
Cameron (04:47):
So it's out of Ephesians chapter 4 and, I guess
the I don't know if the contextis important here or not. I
think it both is and it isn't. Idon't know. For sake of real
estate, I will just say that thecontext of all of Ephesians and
then even going into Ephesianschapter 4 is Paul's theological
(05:12):
insistence on the unity thatcomes through the spirit of God
to all those that are have, youknow, expressed faith in Jesus
Christ. So we're united togetherby the Holy Spirit.
Mhmm. That unification issomething that needs to be
(05:33):
fought for. And the reason thatneeds to be fought for is
because we have an enemy thattries to destroy it, and in
destroying it, it can destroyus. And that part of the pursuit
of unity is really actually thepursuit of Christian maturity.
Mhmm.
About growing up into thefullness of all that is Jesus
(05:57):
Christ. And that in Ephesianschapter 4 specifically, Paul
starts the conversation abouthow how Jesus actually himself
has apportioned. What's theactual word? It was maybe he
(06:19):
doesn't use the wordapportioned. Oh, no.
In verse 7, but each but to eachone of us, grace has been given
as Christ has apportioned it.Mhmm. Right? And then we could
talk a little bit about theparenthetical, verses of 9 and
10, but that's not the point ofthis conversation. Then he goes
(06:42):
into into verse 11, referencingJesus again.
He doesn't use his words, theadverb there or the, the
pronoun. It was he, Jesus, whogave some to be apostles, some
to be prophets, some to beevangelists, and some to be
(07:02):
pastors and teachers. Those arethe offices of the roles. Mhmm.
Right?
Christ gave them. Mhmm. Why didhe give them? Verse 12 to
prepare God's people for worksof service so that the body of
Christ may be built up.
Luke (07:18):
Yep.
Cameron (07:20):
What's what more did he give them for? Until we all
reach unity in the faith and inthe knowledge of the son of God
and become mature, attaining tothe whole measure of the
fullness of Christ. Then we'llno longer be thrown back and
forth like infants by the wavesblown here and there, by every
(07:40):
wind of teaching, by the cunningand craftiness of men and their
deceitful scheming. Instead,speaking the truth in love, we
will, in all things, grow upinto him who is the head that is
Christ. From him, the whole bodyjoined and held together by
every supporting ligament growsand builds itself up in love as
each part does its work So we rewe really talked about like the
(08:06):
verse, 11.
Luke (08:09):
Yeah. Well, because it gets right into it. It says, so
Christ gave, himself gave theapostles, the prophets, the
evangelists, the pastors, andthe teacher and teachers to
equip his people for service.And so the question then is
like, okay, well, you know, sodoes that mean he gave he gave
to the church these things?
Cameron (08:30):
Mhmm.
Luke (08:30):
And the way you kind of started the conversation off of
that being is like, okay. Well,does that mean every church
needs to have apostles, aprophet, evangelist, and a
pastor, and a teacher?
Cameron (08:43):
Yeah.
Luke (08:44):
And like, what is what does this mean? What is this? Is
this like a outline right hereof, like, you know, your church
structure? Should we be, likeshould we put out an want added
the ad? What do you call that?
Want to add Mhmm. On, like,Craigslist or something or
Indeed, and or LinkedIn
Cameron (09:06):
for Looking for an apostle.
Luke (09:08):
Looking for apostle. Uh-huh. 5 years prior experience
needed. Yeah. Entry levelposition.
Cameron (09:18):
Pay commensurate upon experience of seeing Jesus in
the resurrected form. Right.Yeah. I think that what is one
of the main questions that Iapproached the text with when I
was looking at it for this youknow, the bible study last week
was the question of whether ornot this is a list of offices
(09:41):
that every church
Luke (09:42):
Mhmm.
Cameron (09:42):
From the time that Paul wrote it until the time that
Jesus comes back
Luke (09:46):
Yeah.
Cameron (09:47):
Needs to have, or if it's particular to the Ephesian
context Mhmm. Is this somethingthat Paul wanted the Ephesian
church to have? Yeah. Or maybesimilar to that, but all but a
little bit different is is therean era in which these these
(10:12):
offices or these roles exist?
Luke (10:14):
Right.
Cameron (10:15):
But in in an era when they cease. Mhmm. And then maybe
as a those are kinda like thegeneral questions, but then
maybe as a more granularquestion is what exactly is each
of those roles? What is anapostle? Right.
What what what would have beenan apostle then, and what would
(10:35):
be an apostle now? Yeah. I guessit depends on how you answer the
first question. Mhmm. And samething with prophets,
evangelists, and pastors, andteachers.
Yeah.
Luke (10:43):
So So maybe we start with that first question. Yeah.
Because I was thinking aboutthis and because he's he's what
does he says here? Says to equiphis people for works of service
so that the body of Christ mightbe built up. So he I don't know
(11:04):
that he says anything here thatnecessitates it being even
localized to the Ephesians.
Like, obviously, it's a letterwritten to the Ephesians. Right?
Cameron (11:19):
Right.
Luke (11:20):
But he's talking about, like, the body of Christ,
talking about all we all pluraland, like, he could be talking
about the entirety of thechurch. Did you read it that
way, or did you think that hewas talking specifically to the
Ephesians church?
Cameron (11:39):
Well, I mean, not to be tongue in cheek or snarky about
it, but I, like, I think he wastalking specifically to the
Ephesians church because he waswriting a letter specifically to
the Ephesians church.
Luke (11:50):
Think this could be like a, like, any sort of, like, he's
making a broader statementacross, like, that applies to
the Ephesian church, but is alsoapplying to the larger church?
Cameron (12:02):
I mean, I don't know. I think that's really the kind of
the hermeneutical question, iswhat did Paul have in mind when
he was writing this? You know,what what was what anytime that
Paul wrote was was Paul writingwith the understanding that
these letters would be universalin nature?
Luke (12:21):
And
Cameron (12:21):
that the wisdom in them would be universal in nature.
And I think that's a difficultquestion to answer because then
you have to really deal, Thenyou have then you have a a more
difficult time dealing with,like, the pastoral epistles that
were extraordinarily contextualto write then.
Luke (12:39):
Mhmm.
Cameron (12:41):
Written to specific people in specific
circumstances. That's why we welook at things like, what's a
good example? We could look atthings like in the letter to the
Corinthians when Paul is talkingabout the proper and improper
(13:01):
way in which they're takingcommunion. Mhmm. And then we we
take that.
Paul's very specific, instanceto the Corinthians, and we
transpose that upon how we takecommunion now or what, you know,
even what we say about communionnow. Mhmm. And the question
would be, well, is that is thattheologically or interpretively
(13:25):
appropriate Mhmm. Based on whatwe know Paul was saying and the
context was there, and does thattranspose to our context here?
It's not always it's not alwaysclear that it does.
Right. It doesn't mean that it'sany less inspired or any less
important, but I think thatintent of the author is
(13:47):
important. I think it's I Idon't think it's something that
we can dismiss, but I also thinkit's very difficult to know the
intent of the author. Well, I
Luke (13:58):
was gonna say intent, I think, is actually
philosophically impossible todetermine aside from explicit
statement.
Cameron (14:06):
Exactly. Right. So the intent so, like, to say, well,
is Paul's intent here to make acomprehensive list of all of the
offices of the church universalfor all time forevermore. So the
only way we would be able to saypositively that that would be
the case would be that he statesthat explicitly.
Luke (14:30):
Right.
Cameron (14:31):
But the opposite is also true in the sense that we
can't discount that Paul is iswe we can't say Paul was not
making a universal list becausehe's not he's not saying this is
only contextual to theEphesians. Yeah. Now Right.
Christ has given some to beapostles, prophets, evangelists
Luke (14:50):
Mhmm.
Cameron (14:51):
Pastors, and teachers. So I think it does come down to
a matter of, like, it's got tocome down to a matter of, well,
there's the rest of the councilof scripture
Luke (15:05):
Mhmm.
Cameron (15:06):
Number 1. So how do you make it how do you how do you
make the interpretive jump toapplication now? So if we look
at the rest of the council ofscripture, if we look at maybe
the roles themselves Mhmm. Andto try and determine what, like,
(15:28):
what these roles would havemeant to Paul. Right.
Like, did Paul have a the usageof the words even? Were they
universal words? Like, I guesswe just we jump into, like,
definitions like like the Yeah.Like the term apostle.
Luke (15:43):
Well, yeah. Because that's what I was I was thinking
because he's like, he's, youknow so yeah. Let's do that. So
the term apostle. Right?
And people people debate as towhether or not there are new
apostles or people who apostlesnow. Yeah. I've pretty much
(16:08):
always been of the persuasion.No. Same.
Mhmm. Because well, there's thatpassage in acts is it 2 or is it
1? It's pretty early on in thebook of acts where they're
seeking to replace JudasIscariot. Mhmm. And they kind of
talk about, like, well, to beone of us, they have to have
(16:30):
been
Cameron (16:30):
With us from the beginning.
Luke (16:31):
With us from the beginning. Mhmm. So they make a
very clear, argument for it. Andthen, Paul is a unique
dispensation.
Cameron (16:41):
He's he calls himself the least of all the prophets.
Luke (16:43):
Least of all the prophets or apostles. Yes. And he's kind
of he he saw Jesus resurrected,and was kinda given this message
to the Gentiles and the apostlesmeet with him and they kind of
give him the stamp of approvaland send him out. He's
commissioned by them and has agood relationship with them. And
(17:09):
there's other, which I waswondering this yesterday, which
book is it that Paul arguesagainst, like the quote unquote,
like super apostles, the falseapostles that were going around?
Do you remember?
Cameron (17:22):
It's gonna be the Thessalonians.
Luke (17:24):
Maybe. I feel like there's there was some, that would be an
interesting place to lookbecause he kind of argues
against these, like, teacherswho were claiming to be, like, I
don't know why why I have theterm super apostles because I
don't think that's what maybethat just is what we, what
(17:47):
theologians have coined theterm, but that's not what's in
the Bible. The Bible doesn't
Cameron (17:51):
call it that. Corinthians.
Luke (17:52):
2nd Corinthians. So that seems to be like a pretty,
strict club to be in it. Mhmm.Which passage are we looking at?
10 in 2nd Corinthians.
Mhmm.
Cameron (18:13):
Well, did I read that right? 2nd Corinthians?
Luke (18:16):
Maybe. Chapter 10. I mean, he's kind of 3 through 5. 3
through 5. For though we live inthe world, we do not wage war as
the world does.
Cameron (18:27):
That is not it. That's not it.
Luke (18:28):
That's not it. It's about spiritual warfare.
Cameron (18:34):
But how about 115? That might be it. But I do not think
I am in the least inferior tothese super apostles. Oh, yes.
Luke (18:41):
It actually does translate
Cameron (18:42):
it to that. Yeah. Paul and the false apostles.
Luke (18:45):
Yeah. Look at that.
Cameron (18:47):
Someone comes to you and preaches to Jesus other than
the Jesus we have preached or ifyou receive a different spirit
from the one you received, adifferent gospel from the one
you accepted, you put up withit. He's in that. But I do not
think I am in the least inferiorto those super he's using it
tongue cheek.
Luke (19:01):
Mhmm.
Cameron (19:03):
Very sarcastically. I may not be a trained speaker,
but I do have knowledge. We havemade this perfectly clear to you
in every way. So, basically,he's calling out those who have,
you know, preaching a differentgospel.
Luke (19:15):
Right.
Cameron (19:16):
The Corinthians are receiving it.
Luke (19:17):
Mhmm.
Cameron (19:17):
He's like, I may not be one of these super apostles, but
I still know what I'm talkingabout.
Luke (19:22):
Right.
Cameron (19:25):
But anyway, the the even the term apostle, the title
apostle means something.
Luke (19:30):
Mhmm.
Cameron (19:31):
It means to be sent out. So you're commissioned to
do something. Right. So in amanner of speaking, all those
who follow Jesus Mhmm. Via thegreat commission
Luke (19:45):
Right. Are
Cameron (19:48):
apostles. Mhmm.
Luke (19:49):
Right? Yep. In in a lowercase sense.
Cameron (19:54):
Yes. Right. Or they are yeah. They're apostles. But, if
you think about the way in whichthe, New Testament,
specifically, Acts talks aboutor uses the terms, uses the term
(20:15):
apostle.
Like, it begins with the 12Mhmm. Apostles as you stated.
Right? But we didn't know themin the gospels as apostles. We
knew them as disciples.
Yep. Right? Because in disciplein the gospels, they were
followers of Jesus. Mhmm. But inacts, in new testament
literature, early churchliterature, Jesus had sent them
(20:38):
out pre his ascension, sent themout to go and preach and baptize
and teaching them to obey allthat I have commanded you, and
surely, I'm with you always evento the end of age.
And so the question then beganbe I like is like at the death
(21:01):
of the original apostles, are westill holding to the office of
apostle? Not not necessarilythe, like, the the commissioning
aspect of an apostle.
Luke (21:22):
Right. Because we wouldn't limit the great commission to
the apostles.
Cameron (21:26):
The apostolic age.
Luke (21:27):
Right.
Cameron (21:27):
No. We'd say that that's for We'd say we're all
sent out to do that. Right. Butmaybe it becomes a distinction
between the office and thefunction. Like, the office, the
title Right.
Is no longer in
Luke (21:48):
In use.
Cameron (21:49):
In use, But the function is Yeah. But I guess
begs the question, if thefunction is, why isn't the
title?
Luke (21:56):
Well, are we correctly understanding even, like, the
the function? Right? Like, theapostles were the eyewitness
carriers of the teachings ofChrist. Mhmm.
Cameron (22:07):
Mhmm. And the eyewitness carriers of the of
Jesus' not just the teachings
Luke (22:11):
Mhmm.
Cameron (22:11):
But of the resurrected Jesus himself.
Luke (22:13):
Right. And so by that very nature of like, no one else can
do that Mhmm. Anymore becauseit's been 2000 years. Mhmm. And
so you can't that would just bekinda I don't know.
Yeah. So I don't know that theirtheir specific role was to do
(22:39):
that, to carry that specificmessage. We can still carry the
same message, but we no longer
Cameron (22:48):
Meet the qualifications of the office.
Luke (22:50):
Meet the qualifications of the office. We're simply just
being faithful to carry it
Cameron (22:54):
on. Mhmm.
Luke (22:56):
And so I think, like you said, that that very first,
quote, unquote, office or title,I think, points that, like
because Ephesians did not have,like, a resident apostle. Right?
(23:16):
And so, like, he I think he's Ithink that at least indicates
that he's talking more broadlyamongst all the churches that
were being planted at the time.Like, each like, there are
prophets out. There are apostlesout in amongst these churches.
There are apostles. There are,like, you know, until you get to
(23:39):
the pastors and teachers, whichbecause of other passages in the
Bible, we can presume werepretty standard to have it, have
at least 1 pastor and teacher.Mhmm. Usually more at each, at
each church.
Cameron (23:55):
Well, Paul goes on to tell Titus to set him up. So
Luke (23:58):
Right.
Cameron (23:59):
Mhmm.
Luke (23:59):
And so but then prophets and, evangelists and apostles,
perhaps, at least we can seefrom apostles, we're not like a
per church thing all the time.Mhmm. They were more broad than
that.
Cameron (24:16):
I can I can see that? I can I can get on board with
that? Yeah. Although I stillhave my questions about the
universality of these lists.
Luke (24:27):
Well, I think that I think that doesn't necessarily change.
That doesn't make it universalnow. It makes it Universal then?
Cameron (24:37):
Yeah. Right? Like Comprehensive to the churches or
to the context that was in, notnecessarily the context of
Ephesians, but the context ofthe early church at that time.
Luke (24:47):
Right. That's that's what I think maybe.
Cameron (24:50):
Okay.
Luke (24:51):
So I don't know. If you don't don't grieve me, that
that's okay.
Cameron (24:55):
It's okay to it's okay to It's okay
Luke (24:57):
it's okay for us to disagree?
Cameron (24:58):
I don't know that I agree or disagree. I just have
questions. So Yeah. Mhmm.
Luke (25:04):
Okay. So if we don't neither of us are convinced that
apostles still are active andrunning around, what do we think
of? Prophets. Prophets?
Cameron (25:17):
I would think I think it's the same. I think I'm I I
fall into the same, like,function of the prophet, but not
the Mhmm. Office of the title ofthe prophet. Mhmm. You know,
because, like, if you if thefunction of the prophet is to
speak the words of god
Luke (25:41):
or
Cameron (25:44):
in whatever way you want to talk about that. Right?
Or whatever definite however youwanted whatever word you wanna
use to define that. Like, itcertainly would be appropriate
to say that pastors andpreachers sometimes function in
the, like
Luke (26:05):
In a prophetic sense?
Cameron (26:06):
In a prophetic sense. Yeah. Like, when appropriate,
speak the words of God. Wecertainly do when we proclaim
the word of God Mhmm. Like we'respeaking the words of God.
But in the sense maybe that Paulwas thinking here, I don't know
(26:27):
that I would say that, like, itis a it be it becomes at least
universal to us, maybe, like yousaid, universal to the early
Right. Church context, butthey're they're again unsure.
Yeah. Unsure.
Luke (26:46):
I think yeah. Yeah. I I think the thing is is that if
it's I think for me, at least ifit's universal to the early
church context, I think it makesit easier to understand this as
not as not necessarily like aprescriptive per church, if that
(27:11):
makes sense. Because then it'seasier to say, okay, well, then,
you know, the apostles haveended and the the prophets are
are done.
Cameron (27:27):
And Rather than, like, bringing them up into eras or
ages?
Luke (27:33):
I mean, it's kind of essentially, I think it lays the
groundwork for that argument.Mhmm. If if we're if we
understand his his words here isnot applying specifically to is
meant to be general whileapplying to Ephesians, but being
general as well. Mhmm.
Cameron (27:50):
So Well, then would you say the same thing about
evangelists?
Luke (27:56):
Mhmm. Well, even because of, like a little bit of, like,
the the role of an evangelist isthat I don't know that an
evangelist is necessarilysupposed to be typically inside
of an established church. Do youknow what I mean? Right. And so
I think
Cameron (28:17):
They travel in such a way as to share the message, to
be the messenger Right. Butthey're not rooted Right. In a
specific church. Exactly. Paulwould be an evangelist.
Right. Right.
Luke (28:28):
And I don't know that there was anything I can't think
of any passage in the NewTestament that describes someone
as an evangelist in an officesense. And so it might be like
someone is an evangelist bymerit of what they do. I think
Cameron (28:49):
yeah. Well, there's the 2nd Timothy passage.
Luke (28:52):
Do the work of an evangelist. Do
Cameron (28:54):
the work of an evangelist. Right? But then
there's a passage in Acts whereit may refer to Philip as an
evangelist. I gotta find ithere. While I find that, you
(29:14):
wanna talk a little bit moreabout just, like, how you feel
we could go should go about theidea of, like, defining between
or determining between somethingthat's an office and something
that's a like, the differencebetween the the role or the
(29:38):
office and the function.
Luke (29:41):
The function of it?
Cameron (29:42):
Yeah.
Luke (29:44):
Man. So
Cameron (29:46):
I feel I find that that's a hard It
Luke (29:49):
it is it is a hard thing to kind of, like, drop. I guess
there's there's, like, maybe ifthere's it's easy to say it this
way. There are parts of therequirement of the office, maybe
some of the functions of theoffice that we can do, but there
(30:09):
are some of the qualities ofbeing of the office that we
cannot fulfill now. Soapostleship. Right?
The apostles were, you know,sent to carry the they were sent
to carry the message of Christ,his teachings, and his
resurrection. Share that, preachthat, guard that, train people
(30:31):
up, make disciples, baptizingthem, all of that. We can do
those things now, but we cannotbe who they were when they were
doing it. So we cannot be havinghad been with Christ, having
witnessed the resurrection. Noneof those things are available
(30:51):
for us to meet.
And so I think that that mightmaybe kinda puts us into this
place of of being like, we canfulfill the the we can fulfill
some of the role andresponsibilities, but we cannot
(31:14):
be who they were, and therefore,we do not sit in the office with
the same authority. And and theneven I think in our discussion
last Wednesday, I think Ipointed out that I'm not sure
that profit was something that,like, I'm not sure if it ever
functioned as, like, well, itdid function as a title, but,
(31:37):
like, an office that one sat inall the time. All the time.
Yeah.
Cameron (31:42):
As opposed to like being also like a farmer.
Luke (31:44):
Right. Like you are a prophet when you have a word
from the Lord to communicate.
Cameron (31:51):
Right.
Luke (31:51):
And then you're not a prophet when you don't have a
word from the Lord tocommunicate. Yeah. Like, I like,
I don't know that it was like,oh, I inhabit the office of
prophet, and so everything I sayis a word from the Lord or
something like that. Or I'mexpected to have a word from the
Lord on a regular basis orsomething like that. I just I'm
a little dubious of whether ornot like that's really the way
(32:16):
prophets function.
We see some prophets functionthat way in the Old Testament,
and we see some that didn'tfunction that way. They had,
like, very limited or short termprophetic careers. You know,
there was Elijah and Elisha whohad this lifelong or Samuel. But
then we had others. Some a lotof the minor prophets were just
(32:37):
like they were a prophet for,like, 5 years or a year or
something like that.
Cameron (32:43):
Whatever the Lord needed them
Luke (32:44):
to be. Right. And and then they were not the rest of the
time. And so and so it's it forme, it feels kind of strange to
bring that forward and say, oh,well, I'm prophet so and so. And
like, I'm always prophesizing orsomething like that.
Cameron (32:59):
Right. And maybe the same could be said for a thing
like an evangelist. I did findthat it's, it's Acts chapter 21
where where, Paul refers toPhilip the evangelist. Mhmm. But
he calls them one of the he's wecontinue the voyage from Tyre
and landed in, Ptolemyse wherewe greeted the brothers and
stayed with them for a day.
(33:21):
Leaving the next day, we reachedCaesarea and stayed at the house
of Philip the evangelist, one ofthe 7.
Luke (33:29):
The 7?
Cameron (33:30):
Yeah. I'm gonna assume the 7 from Acts chapter 6.
Luke (33:32):
But Oh, okay.
Cameron (33:34):
Yeah. I don't know. He had 4 unmarried daughters who
prophesied. Yeah. Yep.
So I think that's the only placethat I'm aware of where someone
is called an evangelist in thescripture. And then, of course,
in 2nd Timothy 5, Paul tells,Timothy to do the work of an
(33:59):
evangelist, Which is to be amessenger. Yeah. To carry the
message. Mhmm.
And, you know, in for the caseof the scripture, it's the
message of the good news of thegospel.
Luke (34:15):
Yep. I think, like, I'm fine with somebody calling
himself an evangelist. Like,that doesn't really bug me
Cameron (34:28):
Yeah.
Luke (34:28):
That much.
Cameron (34:29):
Mm-mm.
Luke (34:30):
I'm dubious. I've said dubious a lot in this podcast
episode, but I'm dubious ofanyone who calls himself a
prophet.
Cameron (34:38):
Same.
Luke (34:39):
Mostly because I don't know that one should be the that
we should be the ones to declareourselves prophets necessarily.
I think the the the word has tobe self authenticating. Yeah.
And even then, I think it'spretty daggone pretentious.
Cameron (34:57):
Yeah. Well, yes. Very pretentious. I mean and, like,
it's also weird because theprophets in scripture were not
popular.
Luke (35:14):
No. You didn't invite them to come speak. They showed up.
Cameron (35:18):
They were hated. Yeah. And in fact, most of them were
killed Mhmm. For their theprophetic nature of their
ministry in their life.
Luke (35:30):
Right.
Cameron (35:30):
You know, by governments or religious
zealots. You know?
Luke (35:37):
Or ordinary people that they made very mad.
Cameron (35:40):
Correct. You know? So, yeah, it's not like the not like
the prophet was a superdesirable job
Luke (35:48):
Mhmm.
Cameron (35:48):
Or office in the scripture. Yeah. But yeah, I
feel the same way. A littledubious myself Yeah. Of those
who have self titled Yeah.
Prophet.
Luke (36:01):
Yeah. And then I'm just categorically against calling
oneself an apostle.
Cameron (36:06):
Yeah.
Luke (36:06):
Like, that's kind of how I at least put it in my in, like,
my buckets of conviction. Mhmm.Because, like, I do think that
there's, like, the Bible doestalk a lot about, like, the gift
of prophecy. And I do think thatpeople get prophetic words, but
I don't know that that meanssomeone should become a prophet
(36:28):
Mhmm. As, like, a title or as,like, a thing that they do on
the regular or something likethat.
Or if someone does get, like, alot of prophetic words, I think
the more faithful way to do itis to steward that quietly.
Mhmm. Than to to be kind of selfdeclarating about it. Because
the way, and I think that evenjust lays into the way I think
(36:50):
prophecy should be handledgenerally Mhmm. With a much more
open hand than the way mostpeople tend to exercise it.
Mhmm. Mhmm. By that, I mean,like, not walking up to someone
saying, thus saith the lord, youare to marry me. Yeah. What are
Cameron (37:09):
you gonna say about that? Because the lord told me
to say it. Right?
Luke (37:13):
Yeah. Mhmm.
Cameron (37:15):
Well, what about that last term, pastors and teachers?
Luke (37:18):
Preachers and teachers. Yeah. Do you remember your you
were recently looking at theGreek for it, so I'll I'll rely
upon you to remember the theGreek words for that.
Cameron (37:29):
Yeah. So it was or it is the same as the Greek words
that were in, Acts chapter 20Mhmm. On it. Because they're put
in 2 different places. It'spresbyteros Mhmm.
(37:50):
And, as pastors. It's apresbyter one there. And then
the teacher was, I don'tremember the conjugation of it,
but I think it was.
Luke (38:01):
Yes. Yeah.
Cameron (38:03):
Which is from the root word, like, from or teach. Mhmm.
You know? So the yeah. The thisis the one that I think should
get the most airtime
Luke (38:20):
Mhmm.
Cameron (38:20):
And should get the most, like, talking about
because it is a unlike the termapostle, unlike the term
prophet, and unlike the termevangelist, which we see
relatively scantly
Luke (38:36):
Right. In The New Testament.
Cameron (38:38):
The New Testament. The the the words that we see for
pastor, specifically Mhmm. Wesee quite a bit.
Luke (38:48):
Yeah. They get used a lot Yeah. In different places and
applied to a lot of churches.
Cameron (38:55):
Correct. But it's also a question of, like, it's not
the only way that this word getstranslated or what the Paul uses
the word pastor here or how it'sbeen translated to pastor in
(39:15):
Ephesians chapter 4. And the theGreek word that he uses is
presbyteros. Mhmm. Presbyter.
Right? But there are otherinstances where it seems like
he's talking about the sameoffice or role Mhmm. But that he
(39:38):
uses a different Term.
Luke (39:41):
Term. Uses elder.
Cameron (39:43):
He uses well, for us, it's translated as elder, but
like elder or overseer. Andthose are all different Greek
words. So there's likeepiscopas, which is the overseer
(40:07):
slash bishop
Luke (40:08):
Mhmm.
Cameron (40:10):
And, presbyter. And what's the other one that we
talked about the other night?
Luke (40:16):
Deacons?
Cameron (40:17):
No. Oh, Shepherd.
Luke (40:19):
Shepherd. Shepherd.
Cameron (40:20):
Yep. That the words are used
Luke (40:23):
Almost interchangeable.
Cameron (40:24):
Almost interchangeably. And so this this is really the
words these are the words thatwe see, you know, pastor. And to
be clear, in in Ephesianschapter 4, don't believe that,
like, Paul was talking about 2separate
Luke (40:52):
a just feel like you were making some comment about that
recently.
Cameron (40:57):
Like, it doesn't it doesn't appear in the Greek that
he was trying to separate those2, but making sure that that it
was understood that the role ofpastor teacher was To teach and
to teach to teach and shepherd
Luke (41:09):
Right. To teach and care.
Cameron (41:10):
To care for and to feed. Mhmm. Right? So I'm gonna
bring up my notes from the othernight, but
Luke (41:30):
Technology is supposed to make things easier.
Cameron (41:33):
It is. Yeah. If you've ever wondered how, uncut this
actually is, you're seeing itright now. So
Luke (41:51):
yeah.
Cameron (41:58):
Poimen. That's the word. I couldn't think of it. I
knew that there was another one.Poimen, which was meant to be,
which is what we translate as,which we translate as shepherd
or herdsman.
And then, yeah, so there'sepiscopas, which is overseer,
(42:18):
presbyteros, which is elder. Andthen in acts chapter 20, Paul
appears to use 3 of those titleskind of interchangeably, elders,
overseers, and shepherds. Mhmm.And so, like, if you talk about,
like, well, when Paul uses theterm elder in scripture, what's
(42:41):
he talking about? Term overseer,what's he talking about?
The term shepherd, what's hetalking about? We believe that
he although there's 3 differentwords, there are 3 different
titles essentially talking aboutthe same role Mhmm. In a similar
way to as if, like, someonewould call me pastor. Mhmm.
Someone would call me reverend.
Someone would call me minister.Someone would say you're the
(43:03):
leader here. Right? They'retalking about the same thing.
Luke (43:07):
Mhmm.
Cameron (43:08):
It's just generally understood that it's different.
It's explained differently. Andso when it gets to when it gets
to the role of overseer, elder,pastor, shepherd, whatever,
while there's not a whole lot ofdefinition in the scripture
about what an apostle is or whatan evangelist is or what a
(43:32):
prophet is
Luke (43:33):
Mhmm.
Cameron (43:33):
There is descriptions about what an elder overseer
shepherd Mhmm. Is or should be.Right. Right? And then Paul goes
to even more significant lengthwhen and adds another office to
the life of the church, theoffice of deacon Mhmm.
(43:56):
Which, you know, the the mostsignificant portion of that is
in 1st Timothy 3. It's also in1st or and also in Timothy or
I'm sorry. 1st Timothy 3 andTitus chapter 1.
Luke (44:07):
Mhmm.
Cameron (44:09):
Both give explanations of, okay, this is what an
overseer, elder, presbyter,appointee, shepherd is. This is
what a deacon is
Luke (44:18):
Mhmm.
Cameron (44:19):
As well. And so in turn in talking about the term or in
talking about the offices of theNew Testament church. Let me
rephrase that. In talking aboutthe offices of the contemporary
church
Luke (44:33):
Mhmm.
Cameron (44:34):
Now 21st century, I would say that the conversations
around what an elder is are themost cogent, are the most
appropriate
Luke (44:43):
Mhmm.
Cameron (44:44):
Are the most critical for saying like, okay. Do we
believe that these offices thatPaul was talking about are they
have universal application? Iwould say if I'm gonna fight for
the universal application of anyoffice, it would be the office
of elder Mhmm. Even though Istill have the same questions
about its universalcontextuality. Yeah.
(45:08):
So do you do you think that hisdo you think that Paul's more
detailed description of elder,overseer, shepherd in, first
Timothy and in Titus gives itany more universal
(45:28):
contextuality?
Luke (45:30):
I think so, because the question kind of becomes, like,
well, what should the structureof a church be? Mhmm. Right? And
there there does actually needto be 1. Yeah.
And so while Paul didn't writeany of his well, I don't know
(45:52):
that that's not true. Paulbecause we we also have to
remember that Paul knew I'massuming he knew that these
these letters would be passedaround at least inside of the
regions in which he sent them.
Cameron (46:06):
And that was fairly common practice.
Luke (46:08):
Right. And so he wasn't you know, it so he did have at
least a broad like, he knew theaudience wasn't us now, and the
audience wasn't all of theMiddle East, but the audience
was at least a couple towns,
Cameron (46:22):
you
Luke (46:23):
know, of people. And so he he marked it. You know, he went
went through, created the listof, like, these this is what a,
you know, an elder overseer is,this is what a deacon is, these
are the requirements for them,This is how they should kind of,
(46:43):
like, operate a little bitbecause of how they're
differentiated. And so I dothink that that provides a a
more I don't think that thatnecessarily means, because the
text doesn't say, like, all truechurches have a organization
(47:07):
like this. Right?
That sentence, that sentimentisn't contained with inside of
scripture.
Cameron (47:14):
No.
Luke (47:14):
So can't go that far.
Cameron (47:16):
Right.
Luke (47:16):
But if we wanted to say, well, what is maybe the, like,
what is the model that seems tobe present in scripture? That
would seem to be the model, thepresent that's in scripture.
Cameron (47:27):
Yep.
Luke (47:28):
Should the church continue you to use the model that's
present in scripture? Stands toreason. Stands to reason. Yep.
Does that mean we're constrainedto it necessarily?
Not necessarily, but weshouldn't necessarily just throw
it out out of the window either.So that's kind of where I end up
(47:49):
making my argument is not inthis absolute sense
Cameron (47:52):
Mhmm.
Luke (47:52):
Because I don't think Paul says it, and the scripture
doesn't say it that way. Right.But you don't have to make it
absolute. All you have to sayis, like, well, if we need a
structure, we should take theone that we have we're given
seriously and probably shouldn'tstray too much from it.
Cameron (48:10):
Or we at the very least, we could say, like, hey.
If we need a structure, thestructure that was good enough
for Paul to pass on to hisproteges
Luke (48:18):
Right.
Cameron (48:18):
Probably good enough for us.
Luke (48:20):
Right. And I think that's a pretty strong argument that is
ultimately just shy of beingabsolute. Right.
Cameron (48:27):
Well and it and it also it would require us to have some
kind of conversation about,like, okay. Well, if Paul's
church structure given toTimothy and Titus, generally
kind of seen in Acts as wellMhmm. Was good enough for them.
(48:48):
How are we going how would wedefend against someone saying,
well, you know, like Paul'ssystematic of salvation, I
think, was just for the Romans.
Luke (49:00):
Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Right.
Cameron (49:01):
So at at what point at what point do we end the
argument against universalcontextuality? Do we end it at
church structure, somethingthat's just practical, or do we
end it at the deep things oftheology?
Luke (49:12):
Right.
Cameron (49:13):
So I think it just becomes a slippery slope when we
say, you know, we we, you know,we can we'll take some things,
but not not not at all.
Luke (49:23):
Be careful to wash too much out, not to wash too much
out in the waters ofcontextualization.
Cameron (49:28):
Yeah. Yeah. So while we're hitting on, like, 15
minutes here
Luke (49:35):
Yeah.
Cameron (49:35):
We kinda set maybe maybe set the stage a little bit
for conversation next week aboutelders and deacons.
Luke (49:43):
Mhmm. So we kind of like, maybe in summary, for those who
managed to make it through thisOh my god. Kind of dry episode
Cameron (49:50):
We were kind of everywhere at this point.
Luke (49:53):
Is that generally for church structure, we think there
are how many offices, Cameron?2. 2. And we think that those
are Elders and deacons. Eldersand deacons.
Cameron (50:03):
Or in There's not really a different term for
deacon. No. But there is like Itwould be like elder or overseer
or shepherd, which is be thesame as, like, elder
Luke (50:17):
Right.
Cameron (50:18):
Presbyter
Luke (50:19):
Mhmm.
Cameron (50:19):
Pastor even.
Luke (50:20):
Yep. Well, what's the difference? We didn't mention
this, but what is thequalifications for deacon and
elder are oh so similar inscripture, except for one thing.
Cameron (50:33):
Which is the responsibility and the ability
to teach. Teach.
Luke (50:36):
And so that, that qualification then dictates a
little bit of what they how theyfunction and what they do.
Correct.
Cameron (50:44):
Yeah. It's mostly believed, although it's not
explicitly stated. Mhmm. The,like, the office of the deacon
was was seen in the choosing ofthe 7 in Acts 6.
Luke (50:59):
Yeah.
Cameron (51:02):
Where Stephen, the first martyr of the church, so
to speak, was the head deacon,the 1st and head deacon.
Interestingly enough, he waskilled for proclaiming the
(51:22):
gospel. Yes. Yeah.
Luke (51:30):
We're gonna have to think that. That's for next time.
Yeah. Right. But yeah.
So that's at least our opinionon what biblically sourced
offices of the church look like.Mhmm. Next time, we'll probably
need to talk about, like,implementation of those offices
in church. Yeah.
Cameron (51:51):
And what the characteristics or qualities of
them are. Yeah. So tune in nexttime if you care about that.
Luke (51:58):
Or if you don't.
Cameron (51:59):
If you don't. Yeah. You might get some you might get a a
few free potshots here andthere. Oh, you get to see what
we're drinking.
Luke (52:05):
That's true.
Cameron (52:07):
So alright. Anyway, thanks for listening today.
Thanks for sticking with that.Don't count us as the experts on
this conversation for sure. Wehave a little bit of, expertise,
but not, not at all.
Appreciate listening, and we'llcatch you.
Welcome to the uncut podcast. I'm pastor Luke.
Cameron (00:09):
And I'm pastor Cameron.
Luke (00:10):
And this is The Uncut Podcast where we have honest
uncut conversations about faith,life, and ministry, and the
drinks that we have in our handseach and every day.
Cameron (00:19):
Today, it's a Jocko Go. It's Real energy with 0 crash. I
would say it's true. It doesn'tchocolates usually don't give me
the type of crash that arecaffeine based. Yeah.
There's not really any caffeinein this A little bit, but not a
ton. Yeah. But it's also, sorry,Jocko. It's not quite as good as
(00:47):
as long as I have caffeine inthem.
Luke (00:50):
I am drinking a San Pellegrino, my choice of
sparkling natural mineral water.So
Cameron (00:58):
So those are our drink sponsors for today. Those are
Luke (01:00):
our drink sponsors. Hashtag not. Also not. Yep. But
so we, Cameron, we were having,so we've been doing, like, these
Wednesday night classes Mhmm.
For those who maybe do not know.We Sunday mornings, we're
preaching through a book of theBible. Right now, it's the book
(01:21):
of Ephesians, and we've beencarrying that conversation over
into, essentially a Wednesdaynight bible study or class.
Mhmm. And because you kindaplanned out the sermon series
for the series of Ephesians, andyou kinda planned some things to
(01:41):
kinda be covered in the sermonson Sunday and some things to
kinda be talked about onWednesdays.
Not because they werenecessarily not important, but
just because, like, for the sakeof
Cameron (01:53):
The treatment of them Yeah. Required more time.
Luke (01:56):
Right. Mhmm. Or, yeah, or we also we didn't want the
sermon series of Ephesians to bethe entire year. Or
Cameron (02:04):
Right. Yeah. I mean, there's only we play in
Ephesians for 8 weeks, which youthink, oh, it has only has 6
chapters. That should be easy.Chapter a week.
Well, I mean, like, most mostmost preachers or most pastors
who who do this have done thislong enough or preach on a
(02:27):
regular basis would tell youthat, like, preaching through a
book like Ephesians, which isreally there's a lot of depth to
it. Yeah. A lot of stuff there.A lot
Luke (02:41):
of stuff.
Cameron (02:41):
A lot of different topics, lot of, like, lot of
different theological concepts,lots about the church, structure
of the church, theology of thechurch. Mhmm.
Luke (02:52):
Mhmm.
Cameron (02:52):
A lot about, like, practical living and application
to our personal lives. So it'dbe they'd find it difficult to
preach through it in 8 weeks.
Luke (03:02):
Yeah. Well, it's I think, you know, just like just like
when you're in a buffet line,you under you overestimate how
much you can actually getthrough in any given meal or
Sunday service. And so Yeah.
Cameron (03:17):
Well, even last week preaching, I I think I had,
like, a 16 verse. Yeah. I had Ihad it planned for 16 verses.
Luke (03:29):
Mhmm.
Cameron (03:29):
And I only really dealt with 6 Yeah. Versus out of it
because it was there's a lotthere.
Luke (03:37):
Yeah. So Yeah. So that's that's meant that our Wednesday
night classes have kind ofserved as like part 2 to the to
the sermon series almost and aspace for people to kind of go
deeper on some of the stuff thatwe don't have the time to talk
about on a Sunday. Yep. So thislast week, we ended up kind of
(03:59):
talking about the everyone'sfavorite and most interesting
topic in the entire world, whichis church offices and structure.
Cameron (04:09):
Mhmm. Yeah. Not like the architectural layout of your
church. No. Like how manyoffices do you have?
How is your building structured?Not that.
Luke (04:21):
No. Not that.
Cameron (04:22):
But like the offices, in the same way that you would
talk about at like a college,the office of the dean. Sure.
Yeah. Something like the officeof the president. Yeah.
Luke (04:32):
You know? What what positions
Cameron (04:35):
Position. Are there
Luke (04:35):
inside of a church?
Cameron (04:36):
Yeah. Or roles Right. Or whatever.
Luke (04:39):
Like, well, do you want to just maybe read the passage
Yeah. As a good introductionRight. To kinda why and how we
kind of started thatconversation?
Cameron (04:47):
So it's out of Ephesians chapter 4 and, I guess
the I don't know if the contextis important here or not. I
think it both is and it isn't. Idon't know. For sake of real
estate, I will just say that thecontext of all of Ephesians and
then even going into Ephesianschapter 4 is Paul's theological
(05:12):
insistence on the unity thatcomes through the spirit of God
to all those that are have, youknow, expressed faith in Jesus
Christ. So we're united togetherby the Holy Spirit.
Mhmm. That unification issomething that needs to be
(05:33):
fought for. And the reason thatneeds to be fought for is
because we have an enemy thattries to destroy it, and in
destroying it, it can destroyus. And that part of the pursuit
of unity is really actually thepursuit of Christian maturity.
Mhmm.
About growing up into thefullness of all that is Jesus
(05:57):
Christ. And that in Ephesianschapter 4 specifically, Paul
starts the conversation abouthow how Jesus actually himself
has apportioned. What's theactual word? It was maybe he
(06:19):
doesn't use the wordapportioned. Oh, no.
In verse 7, but each but to eachone of us, grace has been given
as Christ has apportioned it.Mhmm. Right? And then we could
talk a little bit about theparenthetical, verses of 9 and
10, but that's not the point ofthis conversation. Then he goes
(06:42):
into into verse 11, referencingJesus again.
He doesn't use his words, theadverb there or the, the
pronoun. It was he, Jesus, whogave some to be apostles, some
to be prophets, some to beevangelists, and some to be
(07:02):
pastors and teachers. Those arethe offices of the roles. Mhmm.
Right?
Christ gave them. Mhmm. Why didhe give them? Verse 12 to
prepare God's people for worksof service so that the body of
Christ may be built up.
Luke (07:18):
Yep.
Cameron (07:20):
What's what more did he give them for? Until we all
reach unity in the faith and inthe knowledge of the son of God
and become mature, attaining tothe whole measure of the
fullness of Christ. Then we'llno longer be thrown back and
forth like infants by the wavesblown here and there, by every
(07:40):
wind of teaching, by the cunningand craftiness of men and their
deceitful scheming. Instead,speaking the truth in love, we
will, in all things, grow upinto him who is the head that is
Christ. From him, the whole bodyjoined and held together by
every supporting ligament growsand builds itself up in love as
each part does its work So we rewe really talked about like the
(08:06):
verse, 11.
Luke (08:09):
Yeah. Well, because it gets right into it. It says, so
Christ gave, himself gave theapostles, the prophets, the
evangelists, the pastors, andthe teacher and teachers to
equip his people for service.And so the question then is
like, okay, well, you know, sodoes that mean he gave he gave
to the church these things?
Cameron (08:30):
Mhmm.
Luke (08:30):
And the way you kind of started the conversation off of
that being is like, okay. Well,does that mean every church
needs to have apostles, aprophet, evangelist, and a
pastor, and a teacher?
Cameron (08:43):
Yeah.
Luke (08:44):
And like, what is what does this mean? What is this? Is
this like a outline right hereof, like, you know, your church
structure? Should we be, likeshould we put out an want added
the ad? What do you call that?
Want to add Mhmm. On, like,Craigslist or something or
Indeed, and or LinkedIn
Cameron (09:06):
for Looking for an apostle.
Luke (09:08):
Looking for apostle. Uh-huh. 5 years prior experience
needed. Yeah. Entry levelposition.
Cameron (09:18):
Pay commensurate upon experience of seeing Jesus in
the resurrected form. Right.Yeah. I think that what is one
of the main questions that Iapproached the text with when I
was looking at it for this youknow, the bible study last week
was the question of whether ornot this is a list of offices
(09:41):
that every church
Luke (09:42):
Mhmm.
Cameron (09:42):
From the time that Paul wrote it until the time that
Jesus comes back
Luke (09:46):
Yeah.
Cameron (09:47):
Needs to have, or if it's particular to the Ephesian
context Mhmm. Is this somethingthat Paul wanted the Ephesian
church to have? Yeah. Or maybesimilar to that, but all but a
little bit different is is therean era in which these these
(10:12):
offices or these roles exist?
Luke (10:14):
Right.
Cameron (10:15):
But in in an era when they cease. Mhmm. And then maybe
as a those are kinda like thegeneral questions, but then
maybe as a more granularquestion is what exactly is each
of those roles? What is anapostle? Right.
What what what would have beenan apostle then, and what would
(10:35):
be an apostle now? Yeah. I guessit depends on how you answer the
first question. Mhmm. And samething with prophets,
evangelists, and pastors, andteachers.
Yeah.
Luke (10:43):
So So maybe we start with that first question. Yeah.
Because I was thinking aboutthis and because he's he's what
does he says here? Says to equiphis people for works of service
so that the body of Christ mightbe built up. So he I don't know
(11:04):
that he says anything here thatnecessitates it being even
localized to the Ephesians.
Like, obviously, it's a letterwritten to the Ephesians. Right?
Cameron (11:19):
Right.
Luke (11:20):
But he's talking about, like, the body of Christ,
talking about all we all pluraland, like, he could be talking
about the entirety of thechurch. Did you read it that
way, or did you think that hewas talking specifically to the
Ephesians church?
Cameron (11:39):
Well, I mean, not to be tongue in cheek or snarky about
it, but I, like, I think he wastalking specifically to the
Ephesians church because he waswriting a letter specifically to
the Ephesians church.
Luke (11:50):
Think this could be like a, like, any sort of, like, he's
making a broader statementacross, like, that applies to
the Ephesian church, but is alsoapplying to the larger church?
Cameron (12:02):
I mean, I don't know. I think that's really the kind of
the hermeneutical question, iswhat did Paul have in mind when
he was writing this? You know,what what was what anytime that
Paul wrote was was Paul writingwith the understanding that
these letters would be universalin nature?
Luke (12:21):
And
Cameron (12:21):
that the wisdom in them would be universal in nature.
And I think that's a difficultquestion to answer because then
you have to really deal, Thenyou have then you have a a more
difficult time dealing with,like, the pastoral epistles that
were extraordinarily contextualto write then.
Luke (12:39):
Mhmm.
Cameron (12:41):
Written to specific people in specific
circumstances. That's why we welook at things like, what's a
good example? We could look atthings like in the letter to the
Corinthians when Paul is talkingabout the proper and improper
(13:01):
way in which they're takingcommunion. Mhmm. And then we we
take that.
Paul's very specific, instanceto the Corinthians, and we
transpose that upon how we takecommunion now or what, you know,
even what we say about communionnow. Mhmm. And the question
would be, well, is that is thattheologically or interpretively
(13:25):
appropriate Mhmm. Based on whatwe know Paul was saying and the
context was there, and does thattranspose to our context here?
It's not always it's not alwaysclear that it does.
Right. It doesn't mean that it'sany less inspired or any less
important, but I think thatintent of the author is
(13:47):
important. I think it's I Idon't think it's something that
we can dismiss, but I also thinkit's very difficult to know the
intent of the author. Well, I
Luke (13:58):
was gonna say intent, I think, is actually
philosophically impossible todetermine aside from explicit
statement.
Cameron (14:06):
Exactly. Right. So the intent so, like, to say, well,
is Paul's intent here to make acomprehensive list of all of the
offices of the church universalfor all time forevermore. So the
only way we would be able to saypositively that that would be
the case would be that he statesthat explicitly.
Luke (14:30):
Right.
Cameron (14:31):
But the opposite is also true in the sense that we
can't discount that Paul is iswe we can't say Paul was not
making a universal list becausehe's not he's not saying this is
only contextual to theEphesians. Yeah. Now Right.
Christ has given some to beapostles, prophets, evangelists
Luke (14:50):
Mhmm.
Cameron (14:51):
Pastors, and teachers. So I think it does come down to
a matter of, like, it's got tocome down to a matter of, well,
there's the rest of the councilof scripture
Luke (15:05):
Mhmm.
Cameron (15:06):
Number 1. So how do you make it how do you how do you
make the interpretive jump toapplication now? So if we look
at the rest of the council ofscripture, if we look at maybe
the roles themselves Mhmm. Andto try and determine what, like,
(15:28):
what these roles would havemeant to Paul. Right.
Like, did Paul have a the usageof the words even? Were they
universal words? Like, I guesswe just we jump into, like,
definitions like like the Yeah.Like the term apostle.
Luke (15:43):
Well, yeah. Because that's what I was I was thinking
because he's like, he's, youknow so yeah. Let's do that. So
the term apostle. Right?
And people people debate as towhether or not there are new
apostles or people who apostlesnow. Yeah. I've pretty much
(16:08):
always been of the persuasion.No. Same.
Mhmm. Because well, there's thatpassage in acts is it 2 or is it
1? It's pretty early on in thebook of acts where they're
seeking to replace JudasIscariot. Mhmm. And they kind of
talk about, like, well, to beone of us, they have to have
(16:30):
been
Cameron (16:30):
With us from the beginning.
Luke (16:31):
With us from the beginning. Mhmm. So they make a
very clear, argument for it. Andthen, Paul is a unique
dispensation.
Cameron (16:41):
He's he calls himself the least of all the prophets.
Luke (16:43):
Least of all the prophets or apostles. Yes. And he's kind
of he he saw Jesus resurrected,and was kinda given this message
to the Gentiles and the apostlesmeet with him and they kind of
give him the stamp of approvaland send him out. He's
commissioned by them and has agood relationship with them. And
(17:09):
there's other, which I waswondering this yesterday, which
book is it that Paul arguesagainst, like the quote unquote,
like super apostles, the falseapostles that were going around?
Do you remember?
Cameron (17:22):
It's gonna be the Thessalonians.
Luke (17:24):
Maybe. I feel like there's there was some, that would be an
interesting place to lookbecause he kind of argues
against these, like, teacherswho were claiming to be, like, I
don't know why why I have theterm super apostles because I
don't think that's what maybethat just is what we, what
(17:47):
theologians have coined theterm, but that's not what's in
the Bible. The Bible doesn't
Cameron (17:51):
call it that. Corinthians.
Luke (17:52):
2nd Corinthians. So that seems to be like a pretty,
strict club to be in it. Mhmm.Which passage are we looking at?
10 in 2nd Corinthians.
Mhmm.
Cameron (18:13):
Well, did I read that right? 2nd Corinthians?
Luke (18:16):
Maybe. Chapter 10. I mean, he's kind of 3 through 5. 3
through 5. For though we live inthe world, we do not wage war as
the world does.
Cameron (18:27):
That is not it. That's not it.
Luke (18:28):
That's not it. It's about spiritual warfare.
Cameron (18:34):
But how about 115? That might be it. But I do not think
I am in the least inferior tothese super apostles. Oh, yes.
Luke (18:41):
It actually does translate
Cameron (18:42):
it to that. Yeah. Paul and the false apostles.
Luke (18:45):
Yeah. Look at that.
Cameron (18:47):
Someone comes to you and preaches to Jesus other than
the Jesus we have preached or ifyou receive a different spirit
from the one you received, adifferent gospel from the one
you accepted, you put up withit. He's in that. But I do not
think I am in the least inferiorto those super he's using it
tongue cheek.
Luke (19:01):
Mhmm.
Cameron (19:03):
Very sarcastically. I may not be a trained speaker,
but I do have knowledge. We havemade this perfectly clear to you
in every way. So, basically,he's calling out those who have,
you know, preaching a differentgospel.
Luke (19:15):
Right.
Cameron (19:16):
The Corinthians are receiving it.
Luke (19:17):
Mhmm.
Cameron (19:17):
He's like, I may not be one of these super apostles, but
I still know what I'm talkingabout.
Luke (19:22):
Right.
Cameron (19:25):
But anyway, the the even the term apostle, the title
apostle means something.
Luke (19:30):
Mhmm.
Cameron (19:31):
It means to be sent out. So you're commissioned to
do something. Right. So in amanner of speaking, all those
who follow Jesus Mhmm. Via thegreat commission
Luke (19:45):
Right. Are
Cameron (19:48):
apostles. Mhmm.
Luke (19:49):
Right? Yep. In in a lowercase sense.
Cameron (19:54):
Yes. Right. Or they are yeah. They're apostles. But, if
you think about the way in whichthe, New Testament,
specifically, Acts talks aboutor uses the terms, uses the term
(20:15):
apostle.
Like, it begins with the 12Mhmm. Apostles as you stated.
Right? But we didn't know themin the gospels as apostles. We
knew them as disciples.
Yep. Right? Because in disciplein the gospels, they were
followers of Jesus. Mhmm. But inacts, in new testament
literature, early churchliterature, Jesus had sent them
(20:38):
out pre his ascension, sent themout to go and preach and baptize
and teaching them to obey allthat I have commanded you, and
surely, I'm with you always evento the end of age.
And so the question then beganbe I like is like at the death
(21:01):
of the original apostles, are westill holding to the office of
apostle? Not not necessarilythe, like, the the commissioning
aspect of an apostle.
Luke (21:22):
Right. Because we wouldn't limit the great commission to
the apostles.
Cameron (21:26):
The apostolic age.
Luke (21:27):
Right.
Cameron (21:27):
No. We'd say that that's for We'd say we're all
sent out to do that. Right. Butmaybe it becomes a distinction
between the office and thefunction. Like, the office, the
title Right.
Is no longer in
Luke (21:48):
In use.
Cameron (21:49):
In use, But the function is Yeah. But I guess
begs the question, if thefunction is, why isn't the
title?
Luke (21:56):
Well, are we correctly understanding even, like, the
the function? Right? Like, theapostles were the eyewitness
carriers of the teachings ofChrist. Mhmm.
Cameron (22:07):
Mhmm. And the eyewitness carriers of the of
Jesus' not just the teachings
Luke (22:11):
Mhmm.
Cameron (22:11):
But of the resurrected Jesus himself.
Luke (22:13):
Right. And so by that very nature of like, no one else can
do that Mhmm. Anymore becauseit's been 2000 years. Mhmm. And
so you can't that would just bekinda I don't know.
Yeah. So I don't know that theirtheir specific role was to do
(22:39):
that, to carry that specificmessage. We can still carry the
same message, but we no longer
Cameron (22:48):
Meet the qualifications of the office.
Luke (22:50):
Meet the qualifications of the office. We're simply just
being faithful to carry it
Cameron (22:54):
on. Mhmm.
Luke (22:56):
And so I think, like you said, that that very first,
quote, unquote, office or title,I think, points that, like
because Ephesians did not have,like, a resident apostle. Right?
(23:16):
And so, like, he I think he's Ithink that at least indicates
that he's talking more broadlyamongst all the churches that
were being planted at the time.Like, each like, there are
prophets out. There are apostlesout in amongst these churches.
There are apostles. There are,like, you know, until you get to
(23:39):
the pastors and teachers, whichbecause of other passages in the
Bible, we can presume werepretty standard to have it, have
at least 1 pastor and teacher.Mhmm. Usually more at each, at
each church.
Cameron (23:55):
Well, Paul goes on to tell Titus to set him up. So
Luke (23:58):
Right.
Cameron (23:59):
Mhmm.
Luke (23:59):
And so but then prophets and, evangelists and apostles,
perhaps, at least we can seefrom apostles, we're not like a
per church thing all the time.Mhmm. They were more broad than
that.
Cameron (24:16):
I can I can see that? I can I can get on board with
that? Yeah. Although I stillhave my questions about the
universality of these lists.
Luke (24:27):
Well, I think that I think that doesn't necessarily change.
That doesn't make it universalnow. It makes it Universal then?
Cameron (24:37):
Yeah. Right? Like Comprehensive to the churches or
to the context that was in, notnecessarily the context of
Ephesians, but the context ofthe early church at that time.
Luke (24:47):
Right. That's that's what I think maybe.
Cameron (24:50):
Okay.
Luke (24:51):
So I don't know. If you don't don't grieve me, that
that's okay.
Cameron (24:55):
It's okay to it's okay to It's okay
Luke (24:57):
it's okay for us to disagree?
Cameron (24:58):
I don't know that I agree or disagree. I just have
questions. So Yeah. Mhmm.
Luke (25:04):
Okay. So if we don't neither of us are convinced that
apostles still are active andrunning around, what do we think
of? Prophets. Prophets?
Cameron (25:17):
I would think I think it's the same. I think I'm I I
fall into the same, like,function of the prophet, but not
the Mhmm. Office of the title ofthe prophet. Mhmm. You know,
because, like, if you if thefunction of the prophet is to
speak the words of god
Luke (25:41):
or
Cameron (25:44):
in whatever way you want to talk about that. Right?
Or whatever definite however youwanted whatever word you wanna
use to define that. Like, itcertainly would be appropriate
to say that pastors andpreachers sometimes function in
the, like
Luke (26:05):
In a prophetic sense?
Cameron (26:06):
In a prophetic sense. Yeah. Like, when appropriate,
speak the words of God. Wecertainly do when we proclaim
the word of God Mhmm. Like we'respeaking the words of God.
But in the sense maybe that Paulwas thinking here, I don't know
(26:27):
that I would say that, like, itis a it be it becomes at least
universal to us, maybe, like yousaid, universal to the early
Right. Church context, butthey're they're again unsure.
Yeah. Unsure.
Luke (26:46):
I think yeah. Yeah. I I think the thing is is that if
it's I think for me, at least ifit's universal to the early
church context, I think it makesit easier to understand this as
not as not necessarily like aprescriptive per church, if that
(27:11):
makes sense. Because then it'seasier to say, okay, well, then,
you know, the apostles haveended and the the prophets are
are done.
Cameron (27:27):
And Rather than, like, bringing them up into eras or
ages?
Luke (27:33):
I mean, it's kind of essentially, I think it lays the
groundwork for that argument.Mhmm. If if we're if we
understand his his words here isnot applying specifically to is
meant to be general whileapplying to Ephesians, but being
general as well. Mhmm.
Cameron (27:50):
So Well, then would you say the same thing about
evangelists?
Luke (27:56):
Mhmm. Well, even because of, like a little bit of, like,
the the role of an evangelist isthat I don't know that an
evangelist is necessarilysupposed to be typically inside
of an established church. Do youknow what I mean? Right. And so
I think
Cameron (28:17):
They travel in such a way as to share the message, to
be the messenger Right. Butthey're not rooted Right. In a
specific church. Exactly. Paulwould be an evangelist.
Right. Right.
Luke (28:28):
And I don't know that there was anything I can't think
of any passage in the NewTestament that describes someone
as an evangelist in an officesense. And so it might be like
someone is an evangelist bymerit of what they do. I think
Cameron (28:49):
yeah. Well, there's the 2nd Timothy passage.
Luke (28:52):
Do the work of an evangelist. Do
Cameron (28:54):
the work of an evangelist. Right? But then
there's a passage in Acts whereit may refer to Philip as an
evangelist. I gotta find ithere. While I find that, you
(29:14):
wanna talk a little bit moreabout just, like, how you feel
we could go should go about theidea of, like, defining between
or determining between somethingthat's an office and something
that's a like, the differencebetween the the role or the
(29:38):
office and the function.
Luke (29:41):
The function of it?
Cameron (29:42):
Yeah.
Luke (29:44):
Man. So
Cameron (29:46):
I feel I find that that's a hard It
Luke (29:49):
it is it is a hard thing to kind of, like, drop. I guess
there's there's, like, maybe ifthere's it's easy to say it this
way. There are parts of therequirement of the office, maybe
some of the functions of theoffice that we can do, but there
(30:09):
are some of the qualities ofbeing of the office that we
cannot fulfill now. Soapostleship. Right?
The apostles were, you know,sent to carry the they were sent
to carry the message of Christ,his teachings, and his
resurrection. Share that, preachthat, guard that, train people
(30:31):
up, make disciples, baptizingthem, all of that. We can do
those things now, but we cannotbe who they were when they were
doing it. So we cannot be havinghad been with Christ, having
witnessed the resurrection. Noneof those things are available
(30:51):
for us to meet.
And so I think that that mightmaybe kinda puts us into this
place of of being like, we canfulfill the the we can fulfill
some of the role andresponsibilities, but we cannot
(31:14):
be who they were, and therefore,we do not sit in the office with
the same authority. And and theneven I think in our discussion
last Wednesday, I think Ipointed out that I'm not sure
that profit was something that,like, I'm not sure if it ever
functioned as, like, well, itdid function as a title, but,
(31:37):
like, an office that one sat inall the time. All the time.
Yeah.
Cameron (31:42):
As opposed to like being also like a farmer.
Luke (31:44):
Right. Like you are a prophet when you have a word
from the Lord to communicate.
Cameron (31:51):
Right.
Luke (31:51):
And then you're not a prophet when you don't have a
word from the Lord tocommunicate. Yeah. Like, I like,
I don't know that it was like,oh, I inhabit the office of
prophet, and so everything I sayis a word from the Lord or
something like that. Or I'mexpected to have a word from the
Lord on a regular basis orsomething like that. I just I'm
a little dubious of whether ornot like that's really the way
(32:16):
prophets function.
We see some prophets functionthat way in the Old Testament,
and we see some that didn'tfunction that way. They had,
like, very limited or short termprophetic careers. You know,
there was Elijah and Elisha whohad this lifelong or Samuel. But
then we had others. Some a lotof the minor prophets were just
(32:37):
like they were a prophet for,like, 5 years or a year or
something like that.
Cameron (32:43):
Whatever the Lord needed them
Luke (32:44):
to be. Right. And and then they were not the rest of the
time. And so and so it's it forme, it feels kind of strange to
bring that forward and say, oh,well, I'm prophet so and so. And
like, I'm always prophesizing orsomething like that.
Cameron (32:59):
Right. And maybe the same could be said for a thing
like an evangelist. I did findthat it's, it's Acts chapter 21
where where, Paul refers toPhilip the evangelist. Mhmm. But
he calls them one of the he's wecontinue the voyage from Tyre
and landed in, Ptolemyse wherewe greeted the brothers and
stayed with them for a day.
(33:21):
Leaving the next day, we reachedCaesarea and stayed at the house
of Philip the evangelist, one ofthe 7.
Luke (33:29):
The 7?
Cameron (33:30):
Yeah. I'm gonna assume the 7 from Acts chapter 6.
Luke (33:32):
But Oh, okay.
Cameron (33:34):
Yeah. I don't know. He had 4 unmarried daughters who
prophesied. Yeah. Yep.
So I think that's the only placethat I'm aware of where someone
is called an evangelist in thescripture. And then, of course,
in 2nd Timothy 5, Paul tells,Timothy to do the work of an
(33:59):
evangelist, Which is to be amessenger. Yeah. To carry the
message. Mhmm.
And, you know, in for the caseof the scripture, it's the
message of the good news of thegospel.
Luke (34:15):
Yep. I think, like, I'm fine with somebody calling
himself an evangelist. Like,that doesn't really bug me
Cameron (34:28):
Yeah.
Luke (34:28):
That much.
Cameron (34:29):
Mm-mm.
Luke (34:30):
I'm dubious. I've said dubious a lot in this podcast
episode, but I'm dubious ofanyone who calls himself a
prophet.
Cameron (34:38):
Same.
Luke (34:39):
Mostly because I don't know that one should be the that
we should be the ones to declareourselves prophets necessarily.
I think the the the word has tobe self authenticating. Yeah.
And even then, I think it'spretty daggone pretentious.
Cameron (34:57):
Yeah. Well, yes. Very pretentious. I mean and, like,
it's also weird because theprophets in scripture were not
popular.
Luke (35:14):
No. You didn't invite them to come speak. They showed up.
Cameron (35:18):
They were hated. Yeah. And in fact, most of them were
killed Mhmm. For their theprophetic nature of their
ministry in their life.
Luke (35:30):
Right.
Cameron (35:30):
You know, by governments or religious
zealots. You know?
Luke (35:37):
Or ordinary people that they made very mad.
Cameron (35:40):
Correct. You know? So, yeah, it's not like the not like
the prophet was a superdesirable job
Luke (35:48):
Mhmm.
Cameron (35:48):
Or office in the scripture. Yeah. But yeah, I
feel the same way. A littledubious myself Yeah. Of those
who have self titled Yeah.
Prophet.
Luke (36:01):
Yeah. And then I'm just categorically against calling
oneself an apostle.
Cameron (36:06):
Yeah.
Luke (36:06):
Like, that's kind of how I at least put it in my in, like,
my buckets of conviction. Mhmm.Because, like, I do think that
there's, like, the Bible doestalk a lot about, like, the gift
of prophecy. And I do think thatpeople get prophetic words, but
I don't know that that meanssomeone should become a prophet
(36:28):
Mhmm. As, like, a title or as,like, a thing that they do on
the regular or something likethat.
Or if someone does get, like, alot of prophetic words, I think
the more faithful way to do itis to steward that quietly.
Mhmm. Than to to be kind of selfdeclarating about it. Because
the way, and I think that evenjust lays into the way I think
(36:50):
prophecy should be handledgenerally Mhmm. With a much more
open hand than the way mostpeople tend to exercise it.
Mhmm. Mhmm. By that, I mean,like, not walking up to someone
saying, thus saith the lord, youare to marry me. Yeah. What are
Cameron (37:09):
you gonna say about that? Because the lord told me
to say it. Right?
Luke (37:13):
Yeah. Mhmm.
Cameron (37:15):
Well, what about that last term, pastors and teachers?
Luke (37:18):
Preachers and teachers. Yeah. Do you remember your you
were recently looking at theGreek for it, so I'll I'll rely
upon you to remember the theGreek words for that.
Cameron (37:29):
Yeah. So it was or it is the same as the Greek words
that were in, Acts chapter 20Mhmm. On it. Because they're put
in 2 different places. It'spresbyteros Mhmm.
(37:50):
And, as pastors. It's apresbyter one there. And then
the teacher was, I don'tremember the conjugation of it,
but I think it was.
Luke (38:01):
Yes. Yeah.
Cameron (38:03):
Which is from the root word, like, from or teach. Mhmm.
You know? So the yeah. The thisis the one that I think should
get the most airtime
Luke (38:20):
Mhmm.
Cameron (38:20):
And should get the most, like, talking about
because it is a unlike the termapostle, unlike the term
prophet, and unlike the termevangelist, which we see
relatively scantly
Luke (38:36):
Right. In The New Testament.
Cameron (38:38):
The New Testament. The the the words that we see for
pastor, specifically Mhmm. Wesee quite a bit.
Luke (38:48):
Yeah. They get used a lot Yeah. In different places and
applied to a lot of churches.
Cameron (38:55):
Correct. But it's also a question of, like, it's not
the only way that this word getstranslated or what the Paul uses
the word pastor here or how it'sbeen translated to pastor in
(39:15):
Ephesians chapter 4. And the theGreek word that he uses is
presbyteros. Mhmm. Presbyter.
Right? But there are otherinstances where it seems like
he's talking about the sameoffice or role Mhmm. But that he
(39:38):
uses a different Term.
Luke (39:41):
Term. Uses elder.
Cameron (39:43):
He uses well, for us, it's translated as elder, but
like elder or overseer. Andthose are all different Greek
words. So there's likeepiscopas, which is the overseer
(40:07):
slash bishop
Luke (40:08):
Mhmm.
Cameron (40:10):
And, presbyter. And what's the other one that we
talked about the other night?
Luke (40:16):
Deacons?
Cameron (40:17):
No. Oh, Shepherd.
Luke (40:19):
Shepherd. Shepherd.
Cameron (40:20):
Yep. That the words are used
Luke (40:23):
Almost interchangeable.
Cameron (40:24):
Almost interchangeably. And so this this is really the
words these are the words thatwe see, you know, pastor. And to
be clear, in in Ephesianschapter 4, don't believe that,
like, Paul was talking about 2separate
Luke (40:52):
a just feel like you were making some comment about that
recently.
Cameron (40:57):
Like, it doesn't it doesn't appear in the Greek that
he was trying to separate those2, but making sure that that it
was understood that the role ofpastor teacher was To teach and
to teach to teach and shepherd
Luke (41:09):
Right. To teach and care.
Cameron (41:10):
To care for and to feed. Mhmm. Right? So I'm gonna
bring up my notes from the othernight, but
Luke (41:30):
Technology is supposed to make things easier.
Cameron (41:33):
It is. Yeah. If you've ever wondered how, uncut this
actually is, you're seeing itright now. So
Luke (41:51):
yeah.
Cameron (41:58):
Poimen. That's the word. I couldn't think of it. I
knew that there was another one.Poimen, which was meant to be,
which is what we translate as,which we translate as shepherd
or herdsman.
And then, yeah, so there'sepiscopas, which is overseer,
(42:18):
presbyteros, which is elder. Andthen in acts chapter 20, Paul
appears to use 3 of those titleskind of interchangeably, elders,
overseers, and shepherds. Mhmm.And so, like, if you talk about,
like, well, when Paul uses theterm elder in scripture, what's
(42:41):
he talking about? Term overseer,what's he talking about?
The term shepherd, what's hetalking about? We believe that
he although there's 3 differentwords, there are 3 different
titles essentially talking aboutthe same role Mhmm. In a similar
way to as if, like, someonewould call me pastor. Mhmm.
Someone would call me reverend.
Someone would call me minister.Someone would say you're the
(43:03):
leader here. Right? They'retalking about the same thing.
Luke (43:07):
Mhmm.
Cameron (43:08):
It's just generally understood that it's different.
It's explained differently. Andso when it gets to when it gets
to the role of overseer, elder,pastor, shepherd, whatever,
while there's not a whole lot ofdefinition in the scripture
about what an apostle is or whatan evangelist is or what a
(43:32):
prophet is
Luke (43:33):
Mhmm.
Cameron (43:33):
There is descriptions about what an elder overseer
shepherd Mhmm. Is or should be.Right. Right? And then Paul goes
to even more significant lengthwhen and adds another office to
the life of the church, theoffice of deacon Mhmm.
(43:56):
Which, you know, the the mostsignificant portion of that is
in 1st Timothy 3. It's also in1st or and also in Timothy or
I'm sorry. 1st Timothy 3 andTitus chapter 1.
Luke (44:07):
Mhmm.
Cameron (44:09):
Both give explanations of, okay, this is what an
overseer, elder, presbyter,appointee, shepherd is. This is
what a deacon is
Luke (44:18):
Mhmm.
Cameron (44:19):
As well. And so in turn in talking about the term or in
talking about the offices of theNew Testament church. Let me
rephrase that. In talking aboutthe offices of the contemporary
church
Luke (44:33):
Mhmm.
Cameron (44:34):
Now 21st century, I would say that the conversations
around what an elder is are themost cogent, are the most
appropriate
Luke (44:43):
Mhmm.
Cameron (44:44):
Are the most critical for saying like, okay. Do we
believe that these offices thatPaul was talking about are they
have universal application? Iwould say if I'm gonna fight for
the universal application of anyoffice, it would be the office
of elder Mhmm. Even though Istill have the same questions
about its universalcontextuality. Yeah.
(45:08):
So do you do you think that hisdo you think that Paul's more
detailed description of elder,overseer, shepherd in, first
Timothy and in Titus gives itany more universal
(45:28):
contextuality?
Luke (45:30):
I think so, because the question kind of becomes, like,
well, what should the structureof a church be? Mhmm. Right? And
there there does actually needto be 1. Yeah.
And so while Paul didn't writeany of his well, I don't know
(45:52):
that that's not true. Paulbecause we we also have to
remember that Paul knew I'massuming he knew that these
these letters would be passedaround at least inside of the
regions in which he sent them.
Cameron (46:06):
And that was fairly common practice.
Luke (46:08):
Right. And so he wasn't you know, it so he did have at
least a broad like, he knew theaudience wasn't us now, and the
audience wasn't all of theMiddle East, but the audience
was at least a couple towns,
Cameron (46:22):
you
Luke (46:23):
know, of people. And so he he marked it. You know, he went
went through, created the listof, like, these this is what a,
you know, an elder overseer is,this is what a deacon is, these
are the requirements for them,This is how they should kind of,
(46:43):
like, operate a little bitbecause of how they're
differentiated. And so I dothink that that provides a a
more I don't think that thatnecessarily means, because the
text doesn't say, like, all truechurches have a organization
(47:07):
like this. Right?
That sentence, that sentimentisn't contained with inside of
scripture.
Cameron (47:14):
No.
Luke (47:14):
So can't go that far.
Cameron (47:16):
Right.
Luke (47:16):
But if we wanted to say, well, what is maybe the, like,
what is the model that seems tobe present in scripture? That
would seem to be the model, thepresent that's in scripture.
Cameron (47:27):
Yep.
Luke (47:28):
Should the church continue you to use the model that's
present in scripture? Stands toreason. Stands to reason. Yep.
Does that mean we're constrainedto it necessarily?
Not necessarily, but weshouldn't necessarily just throw
it out out of the window either.So that's kind of where I end up
(47:49):
making my argument is not inthis absolute sense
Cameron (47:52):
Mhmm.
Luke (47:52):
Because I don't think Paul says it, and the scripture
doesn't say it that way. Right.But you don't have to make it
absolute. All you have to sayis, like, well, if we need a
structure, we should take theone that we have we're given
seriously and probably shouldn'tstray too much from it.
Cameron (48:10):
Or we at the very least, we could say, like, hey.
If we need a structure, thestructure that was good enough
for Paul to pass on to hisproteges
Luke (48:18):
Right.
Cameron (48:18):
Probably good enough for us.
Luke (48:20):
Right. And I think that's a pretty strong argument that is
ultimately just shy of beingabsolute. Right.
Cameron (48:27):
Well and it and it also it would require us to have some
kind of conversation about,like, okay. Well, if Paul's
church structure given toTimothy and Titus, generally
kind of seen in Acts as wellMhmm. Was good enough for them.
(48:48):
How are we going how would wedefend against someone saying,
well, you know, like Paul'ssystematic of salvation, I
think, was just for the Romans.
Luke (49:00):
Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Right.
Cameron (49:01):
So at at what point at what point do we end the
argument against universalcontextuality? Do we end it at
church structure, somethingthat's just practical, or do we
end it at the deep things oftheology?
Luke (49:12):
Right.
Cameron (49:13):
So I think it just becomes a slippery slope when we
say, you know, we we, you know,we can we'll take some things,
but not not not at all.
Luke (49:23):
Be careful to wash too much out, not to wash too much
out in the waters ofcontextualization.
Cameron (49:28):
Yeah. Yeah. So while we're hitting on, like, 15
minutes here
Luke (49:35):
Yeah.
Cameron (49:35):
We kinda set maybe maybe set the stage a little bit
for conversation next week aboutelders and deacons.
Luke (49:43):
Mhmm. So we kind of like, maybe in summary, for those who
managed to make it through thisOh my god. Kind of dry episode
Cameron (49:50):
We were kind of everywhere at this point.
Luke (49:53):
Is that generally for church structure, we think there
are how many offices, Cameron?2. 2. And we think that those
are Elders and deacons. Eldersand deacons.
Cameron (50:03):
Or in There's not really a different term for
deacon. No. But there is like Itwould be like elder or overseer
or shepherd, which is be thesame as, like, elder
Luke (50:17):
Right.
Cameron (50:18):
Presbyter
Luke (50:19):
Mhmm.
Cameron (50:19):
Pastor even.
Luke (50:20):
Yep. Well, what's the difference? We didn't mention
this, but what is thequalifications for deacon and
elder are oh so similar inscripture, except for one thing.
Cameron (50:33):
Which is the responsibility and the ability
to teach. Teach.
Luke (50:36):
And so that, that qualification then dictates a
little bit of what they how theyfunction and what they do.
Correct.
Cameron (50:44):
Yeah. It's mostly believed, although it's not
explicitly stated. Mhmm. The,like, the office of the deacon
was was seen in the choosing ofthe 7 in Acts 6.
Luke (50:59):
Yeah.
Cameron (51:02):
Where Stephen, the first martyr of the church, so
to speak, was the head deacon,the 1st and head deacon.
Interestingly enough, he waskilled for proclaiming the
(51:22):
gospel. Yes. Yeah.
Luke (51:30):
We're gonna have to think that. That's for next time.
Yeah. Right. But yeah.
So that's at least our opinionon what biblically sourced
offices of the church look like.Mhmm. Next time, we'll probably
need to talk about, like,implementation of those offices
in church. Yeah.
Cameron (51:51):
And what the characteristics or qualities of
them are. Yeah. So tune in nexttime if you care about that.
Luke (51:58):
Or if you don't.
Cameron (51:59):
If you don't. Yeah. You might get some you might get a a
few free potshots here andthere. Oh, you get to see what
we're drinking.
Luke (52:05):
That's true.
Cameron (52:07):
So alright. Anyway, thanks for listening today.
Thanks for sticking with that.Don't count us as the experts on
this conversation for sure. Wehave a little bit of, expertise,
but not, not at all.
Appreciate listening, and we'llcatch you.
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