March 5, 2025 • 40 mins
Fasting. Something christians should be doing or not? Is it a relic of Bible times or a lost practice we need to recover today. Cameron and Luke discuss both the theology and practice of fasting and prayer.
- (00:09) - Introduction to the Uncut Podcast
- (00:29) - The Journey of Prayer
- (08:10) - Intercession and Co-Laboring
- (10:06) - The Connection of Fasting and Prayer
- (19:49) - Understanding the Theology of Fasting
- (24:28) - Fasting: A Focus on Food
- (29:29) - Navigating Fasting and Abstinence
- (38:35) - Embracing the Discipline of Feasting
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Luke (00:06):
Welcome to the uncut podcast. I'm pastor Luke.
Cameron (00:09):
Hi. I'm pastor Cameron.
Luke (00:11):
And this is the uncut podcast where we have honest
uncut conversations about faith,life, and ministry. Well,
welcome back, everybody. Cameronand I are sipping on our
Cameron (00:23):
tea tea, of course. No coffee in this room.
Luke (00:30):
Yeah. We're sitting down to have a conversation. We've
been, how many weeks has it beennow? Three weeks? Four weeks?
Cameron (00:40):
Four weeks, I think. Yeah.
Luke (00:41):
Prayer Mhmm. Up in our service. Maybe the good place to
start with this is just to say,like, what your intention with
the because I know that you havesome really intentionality
around the way you've structuredand chose to talk about prayer.
Cameron (00:57):
Mhmm.
Luke (00:58):
And it's maybe not the way that, you know, somebody
probably not the way I wouldhave written a sermon series
Cameron (01:04):
on prayer.
Luke (01:05):
So, like, tell us about that methodology, and maybe that
will inform form a little bit ofthe way we go about talking
about it here.
Cameron (01:12):
Yep. So I have preached handfuls of series and sermons
on prayers over, you know, thespan of ministry, and most of
them have been somehow connectedto the nuts and bolts or
practical ways in which wecreate a more structured, better
(01:37):
biblical Mhmm. Prayer life.
Luke (01:39):
Yeah.
Cameron (01:40):
So that would include things like taking the lord's
prayer and breaking each stanzadown into a category of type of
prayer.
Luke (01:53):
Mhmm.
Cameron (01:54):
Who who's prayer to? The worship of the father, for
instance. Our daily bread, youknow, petition, asking for
safety from temptation, all ofthat. And then saying, okay, how
do we essentially modernize thethe language around the
(02:16):
categories in order to build astructure of prayer?
Luke (02:19):
Mhmm.
Cameron (02:20):
Or you talk about the importance of persistence from
several of the different Yeah.Parables or stories of Jesus, or
you develop models of prayerlike the, acts model. Right?
Luke (02:35):
Sure.
Cameron (02:36):
Adoration, confession, thanksgiving, supplication Yeah.
As a way. And I think that thosetypes of things are really
valuable, continue to be reallyvaluable Yep.
Luke (02:52):
In helping people to develop a life, a greater life
of prayer.
Mhmm.
I just felt and this is a little bit a little bit, if you
want
Cameron (03:02):
a little bit of an insight into a preacher's mind
and process, and at least thispreacher's mind process,
personal life of devotion
Luke (03:13):
Mhmm.
Cameron (03:13):
Etcetera, is I felt like I just could not preach a
series like that this timearound. And the reason that I
couldn't is because I had becomeso so tired of preaching as form
(03:40):
or I'm sorry. As for, I'd becomeso tired of praying as form
Mhmm. Rather than praying asintimacy. Like, I had just
become so worn out on feeling acall to duty and discipline and
(04:08):
form and structure.
Luke (04:11):
Mhmm.
Cameron (04:11):
And in fact, in the class that I taught last night
on prayer, John Mark Comer said,most of us are afraid to admit
that prayer is boring to us.Mhmm. And I felt I feel that
deeply. I felt that deeply as Iwas thinking about this series.
(04:38):
And so I began to ask the Lordto change my heart, and I began
to do things even earlier in mylife or earlier, to pursue to
actually pursue him.
Mhmm. Pursue his face, seek hisface. And what came out of that,
(05:04):
like, pre season of this prayerseason for me was that the there
was one central theme that Ifelt like the Lord drawing me
back to when it came to prayer.And that was essentially him
saying to me, Cameron, prayer isan invitation to intimacy with
(05:28):
me.
Luke (05:29):
Mhmm.
Cameron (05:30):
Like, I am inviting you to come and experience the thing
that you intrinsically feel yourheart needs and that your soul
longs for, that essentially youwere created for. Yeah. Intimacy
(05:51):
with me. If you are if you aredone with the form, devoid of
power, form devoid of powerMhmm. Then begin to see prayer
as an invitation to come intointimacy with me.
Yeah. And so I wanted to justkind of ask the question of him.
(06:15):
Alright. Well, what would a whathow would I preach this? Like, I
wanna so kind of the theroundabout answer to the
question is I chose this routeor this focus or this theme of
prayer to run through the wholething based off of what the lord
(06:38):
was doing in my life
Luke (06:39):
Mhmm.
Cameron (06:40):
As an overflow of what he's what of what he's been
teaching me.
Luke (06:44):
Right.
Cameron (06:45):
And so these these sermons that I've been preaching
on prayer are not just somethinglike, oh, I'm just pulling them
out of the catacombs of my,like, a book that I read or the
schooling that I have orwhatever the case. Not pulling
them out of the catacombs ofthat. I'm pulling them out of my
prayer journal. Mhmm. I'mpulling them out of my the time
(07:08):
in the secret place.
I'm pulling them out of, like,the last three months of
experience with the lord
Luke (07:14):
Yeah.
Cameron (07:15):
And saying, alright, Lord. I'm trusting that as the
pastor of this place
Luke (07:20):
Mhmm.
Cameron (07:21):
That whatever anointing or blessing you've been giving
to me in this stuff, in thisseason, that you're you're
you're like, give it give it tome so that I can give it to
them. Yeah. So the the whole ofthe the whole of the sir the
series has been built aroundthis idea that god, uses prayer
(07:46):
or that prayer is the is acontext where we develop greater
intimacy with God.
Luke (07:53):
Mhmm.
Cameron (07:53):
And when we see things or interact with things on the
basis of the development ofintimacy, it changes the way
that we approach it incomparison to the way that we
approach something that is likeprayer as just a duty. You just
gotta do it because everyChristian should do it. So
(08:19):
started with prayer, a generalmessage on prayer as invitation
to in intimacy, then prayed orthen preached on the what was
the next one? The secret place.
Luke (08:35):
Mhmm.
Cameron (08:35):
Prayer in the secret place. Yep. And, the well, I
think the like, the power of thesecret place of prayer with the
Lord and what it does. Lastweek, preached on intercession
and the not not just like makingthe list. Mhmm.
(09:02):
Love lists. Yeah. Prayingmyself. But about letting the
Lord lift our vision for ourrole as intercessors and his
desire to co labor with us inthe, like, the building of his
kingdom Mhmm. Here on earth.
(09:26):
And that part of the way that weco labor with him is to join
Jesus in the ministry ofintercession. Jesus is
interceding for us. We'reinterceding for others, but
we're now we're also intercedingfor our city, for our region,
for churches, for I'minterceding for businesses that
(09:48):
they would be filled with thespirit and filled with integrity
and Mhmm. Leverage theirinfluence for the glory of the
kingdom. And so, intercession aslike this invitation to be co
creators of the king of kingdombuilding on the on the earth.
Luke (10:07):
Mhmm.
Cameron (10:08):
And then this week, I'm preaching on fasting.
Luke (10:16):
Yeah.
Cameron (10:17):
Which is, I was reading yesterday, Scott McKnight, has
he he says that fasting is wholebody praying.
Luke (10:29):
Mhmm.
Cameron (10:31):
So the connection between prayer and fasting is
that when we fast, we we weessentially, enlist our bodies
Yeah. Into the act of praying.So it's like a whole body
experience. I loved I loved thatbecause I've often had trouble
(10:56):
kind of discerning and and truthbe told, still do, but I'm okay
with embracing the mystery
Luke (11:05):
Mhmm.
Cameron (11:05):
Of what it is about
Luke (11:08):
fasting that
Cameron (11:12):
brings the power.
Luke (11:14):
Yeah. Because I I wanna I wanna lean in here lean in here
a little bit because I this isthe thing that I think we
struggle with. And there like,why is fasting such a
unpracticed discipline Mhmm. Inevangelical protestant
(11:37):
Christianity? Mhmm.
I won't go so as far as to sayall of Protestantism, but it's
definitely, like, Catholics andOrthodox. Everyone essentially,
anyone who's not Protestant hasa much more robust practice of,
fasting.
(11:57):
Or they or you like, even Catholics, maybe they don't
maybe, like, day to dayCatholics don't they
Cameron (12:08):
don't practice Right. Fasting as often, but they cert
but they're but the the Catholicfaith itself has a robust
theology
Luke (12:19):
Right.
Cameron (12:20):
And an official practice of fasting.
Luke (12:23):
Yeah. I think that's probably a better way of saying
it because I I know that there'sprobably a lot of listeners who
are like, we never fasted when Iwas Catholic or whatever.
Cameron (12:30):
Or, like, yeah. We only ate meat on Fridays, and it was
fished during lent.
Luke (12:35):
Yeah. You know? But they didn't they didn't they didn't
have a concept conceptualizingof it. So Right. That's a good
that's a good distinction tomake.
So that at least officiallyinside of their denomination,
there is a robust theology andspace to practice it. Whereas,
like, the conversation aroundfasting in our circles is always
just, like, why?
Cameron (12:55):
Why would you do that?
Luke (12:56):
Why would you why why is that a thing? And I'll share I
think I I don't think my smallgroup would mind, but, like so
I'm I participate in a smallgroup here at the church, and
we've been doing the differentspiritual disciplines, through
practicing the way we've been.And when we started, there was,
(13:16):
like, it was only a couplecourses out and, like, it was,
like, prayer and fasting. Mhmm.And we're like, well, we're not
doing fasting.
And so we have, like, avoideddoing the fasting practice
because it was like no onewanted to fast. And, our small
group leader, came around. Wewere going to do a different,
(13:37):
like, a different practiceuntil, like, she felt the
conviction. And she was justlike, you know what? Let's fast.
Let's do the fasting practice.That's the one that we're like
all kind of quietly giggling andthen ignoring, because we don't
really wanna do it. And I'lltell you what, like, there is
something. The people who are inthe, in the group participating
(14:01):
in that, like, is everyone hasbeen like, this has been like
our favorite. And, like like, itwas the thing that, like,
everybody was the most reluctantto do, and it's the thing that
has probably brought, the mostparticipation in it.
And so, and I won't oversharemore than that. But, so yeah.
(14:25):
What I wanna go back to thatquote because I think that Scott
McKnight quote is at the core ofit. Fasting is praying with our
whole body. It's whole bodyprayer.
Mhmm. Why is that a difficultthing for us to understand?
Mhmm.
Cameron (14:44):
I think one of the reasons that it's difficult for
us to understand is because wecompart we have
compartmentalized ourrelationship with the Lord to
just the spiritual. Mhmm. Wehave kind of this almost like
pseudo gnostic practice of orpseudo gnostic belief that, you
(15:10):
know, my well, my body's notinvolved in, like, my
spirituality. It's like Yeah.Yeah.
They're separate things. Like,why would I even consider that?
And the, but when it it's almostlike we have forgotten the order
(15:34):
in which we were created. Ourbodies were created first. Like,
God God created a Craig, God Godcreated bodies and put in us his
spirit.
Yeah. He didn't create a spiritand then say, hey. That thing
needs a body. Right.
Luke (15:56):
Like the body's an afterthought.
Right.
Cameron (15:58):
Mhmm. The body wasn't an afterthought. The body was
the first thought.
Luke (16:02):
Mhmm.
Cameron (16:03):
And so I feel like there has been a, we just have
never Western Christianity, Idon't think, has ever really had
a super high view of the body asit pertains to our relationship
with the Lord. We have justassumed that everything is
(16:25):
spiritual Yeah. And a little bitesoteric. Whereas the practice
of fasting, I think it regroundsand anchors us to the reality
that we are whole beings. Mhmm.
(16:47):
And that the things that wepursue in the in our physical
nature and in our body Mhmm. Aremore than just connected to our
spirits, but that they are whatwe do in the body moves in the
spirit realm. Mhmm. It movesthings. Fasting being one of the
(17:14):
most significant, like, I'mgonna talk and I'm gonna take
some license with it thisweekend Yeah.
About the passage in Matthewwhere the disciples are unable
to cast the demon out. Yeah. AndJesus comes along and does it.
And then they come to himafterwards and they say, why
couldn't we? Yep.
(17:35):
And he says, this kind comes outonly by prayer and fasting.
Mhmm. And so that there was a,there was something that needed
to be done in the physicality oftheir bodies that was enormously
(17:56):
powerful in the spiritual realm.And that we to ignore that Yeah.
Is to forfeit the power that Godhas made available in
Luke (18:12):
it. Mhmm.
Cameron (18:17):
I also think that we have become very self indulgent,
and, and we have becomegluttonous. We have become
lovers of pleasure Mhmm. Andhave adopted a form of
(18:44):
Christianity that excuse anytype of suffering.
Luke (18:49):
Mhmm.
Cameron (18:51):
Right? Like, my faith with God, my faith in God, my
relationship with Jesus willnever like, it's all about the
pursuit of happiness. It's allabout the per, like, progress,
blessing, favor, health,vitality. And we just do not
have a theology of suffering.
Luke (19:12):
Mhmm.
Cameron (19:15):
We don't have a theology of suffering that is
redemptive Mhmm. And that isproactive in the building of our
spirits.
Luke (19:22):
Yeah. Like, why would I intentionally endure suffering?
Correct. We do talk aboutsometimes, like,
Cameron (19:29):
what to do when When you suffer.
Luke (19:30):
When you suffer, like, because it's happening and you
didn't choose it. But, like
Cameron (19:34):
But what about when you pursue suffering in the body?
Yeah.
Luke (19:38):
And why would you
Cameron (19:39):
do that? Say those who suffer in the body are what?
Those who suffer in the body aredone with sin. Mhmm.
Luke (19:46):
They
Cameron (19:46):
put to death sin. Yeah. So I think we have a we have a,
a society and a church and, evenreally maybe even a faith
practice that is gluttonous.Mhmm. It lives in excess.
It lives it tries to make makeits home in the absence of
suffering Yeah. Which is theopposite of our Lord.
Luke (20:13):
Mhmm.
Cameron (20:15):
And so it becomes difficult to have it becomes
difficult to, like, evenconsider or talk about why we
would do that. The the third andthis is something that I'm I
don't know. I I like I I wonderwhat you think about this, and
(20:36):
I'm this will come out after Ipreach the sermon on fasting. So
I guess you can go back and makea determination as to you you
can go back and listen to thisand listen to the sermon and
make a determination as to whatdecision I made after this
conversation is, it's connectedto our desire to avoid
(20:59):
suffering, but it's what I whatlike, what I had seen, what I
have seen and experienced, and,and something that I was reading
in Richard Foster
Luke (21:15):
Mhmm.
Cameron (21:16):
About fasting. And he essentially and I don't think he
was making as strong as I intendto make it or as I think I want
to make it.
Luke (21:23):
Mhmm.
Cameron (21:24):
You said that the biblical practice of fasting
always centered around food.
Luke (21:29):
Yeah. How's this gonna be my next question?
Cameron (21:32):
And that he didn't he didn't take it to this, but I'm
gonna take it to this, is thatthe modern Christian, the church
evangelical, WesternChristianity has kind of morphed
fasting into the, like,divesting yourself of other
(21:58):
modern, conveniences. Yeah. Oh,I'm fasting from Netflix today.
I'm fasting from
Luke (22:06):
Right.
Cameron (22:08):
Social media.
Luke (22:09):
Mhmm.
Cameron (22:10):
I'm fasting from Well whatever the case may be.
Luke (22:14):
To to to add to this, I remember being in high school.
First time I was exposed to,like, Lent and fasting. I was
attending a Christian highschool, and our Bible teacher at
the time was like, hey. Like,it's Lent season. You know, I
don't know know that noteverybody's church celebrates or
observes Lent or anything likethat, but it's part of, like,
(22:35):
church history.
And, like, you know, he kindagave us, like, a teaching about
us and kind of, like, you know,maybe put something, like did he
want us to put something, like,anonymously up on the board in
the back or something like that?He, like, had us write on, like,
note cards something we weregonna fast from for the season
of Latin. Mhmm. High schoolguys, like Right. Porn.
(23:01):
Like,
Cameron (23:01):
what's up with the porn?
Luke (23:02):
You know? But, like, a lot of things that went up there
were secular music, because, youknow, it was the that was the
time it was the day and agewhere, like, Christians were all
out against anything that wasn'tChristian. But, anyways,
Cameron (23:18):
Here here's the here's my kind of, like, where I'm
thinking. Like, listen. We don'tfast from things that have
become idols.
Luke (23:28):
Mhmm.
Cameron (23:29):
We smash idols and we remove them from our lives
permanently. Fasting istemporary.
Luke (23:34):
Yeah.
Cameron (23:37):
So we if if something has a level of control over us
Luke (23:46):
Mhmm.
Cameron (23:47):
That we feel the necessity to fast from
Luke (23:50):
it Mhmm.
Cameron (23:53):
Then we should be questioning its purpose in our
life, its place in our life,social media, Netflix. Yeah. You
know, all of those those typesof things. Right? Food is a
necessity of life, that dailybread has clearly been provided
(24:15):
for us in scripture by the Lord.
Mhmm. And so food kind of sitsin a different category of this
is not like, does food become anidol for people? Absolutely.
Just fast from it for fast fromit for a few days and recognize
the power that it has over yourlife. Yeah.
(24:35):
That food has for the power ithas over your emotions.
Luke (24:38):
Mhmm.
The power
Cameron (24:39):
it has over your, over, like, your thoughts, over your
hungers, your affections. Yep.It's got power. So my essential
contention is that we need tostop talking about fasting from
social media and fasting fromYeah. Netflix.
(25:02):
Mhmm. If you need to fast fromthat, maybe you should just quit
it. Right. And instead, justembrace the reality that, like,
fasting in scripture is centeredsolely around food with one
other example excluded, which isPaul's encouragement to fast for
(25:28):
a husband and wife to fast fromsex Mhmm. For a season in order
to devote themselves to prayer.
Right.
Luke (25:37):
Which is again a uniquely physical fast.
There you go. Right.
Cameron (25:44):
So
Luke (25:46):
Yeah. That's, that's something that, like, I've, you
know, I've encountered. I to behonest, a lot of times when it
comes into when that, like,well, I wanna fast from
something other than food. Mhmm.I know that in myself and
(26:07):
generally the vibe I'm gettingfrom where that discussion is
stemming from is sometimes Ifeel more comfortable fasting
from this than I do fasting fromfood.
Yes. So I think it's sometimesit's a it's a comfort factor of
I feel way more comfortablefasting from this. Correct. This
is gonna cause me lessdiscomfort. Correct.
(26:32):
I think the other things I thinkthere's, you know, I think
there's good intention behindabstinence. Either, like, total
abstinence from a thing, whetherthat be social media or Mhmm.
Whatever the thing is that youfeel like you need to abstain
from Mhmm. For either a portionof time or all of the time. I I
(26:55):
think you can abstain fromthings from a season.
I don't think that that's aunhelpful thing. Mhmm. Right?
Cameron (27:04):
No. Absolutely.
Luke (27:05):
And and not and not and not every absence needs to be
total and forever. But I dothink I think I might agree with
you because I think the dangerof allowing because our language
matters. Our language matters.And the using the language of
(27:27):
fasting to talk about fastingfrom social media or, like, your
own abstaining from coffee.You're not fasting from coffee.
You're abstaining from coffee.If you were to use if we you
allow the language of fasting tobe so broad as to encompass
anything that we might abstainfrom for any period of time.
(27:49):
Yeah. What it does is it itwaters the word down so much
Yeah.
Cameron (27:55):
Hijacks it. Yep.
Luke (27:56):
So that I can go and I can say, well, I fast. Right. Do
you, though?
Cameron (28:02):
Right. This tie this kind only comes up my fasting
and prayer. Lord, I gave upsocial media for two days.
Luke (28:08):
Right. I didn't listen to secular rap for a whole month
Cameron (28:13):
or whatever. Damn. Got a reaction. Guilty as charged.
Luke (28:16):
But I I could fast from that, and I'm like, fine.
Cameron (28:20):
Right.
Luke (28:20):
Didn't hurt me at all.
Cameron (28:21):
I don't wanna listen to the gym anymore. I don't listen
to rap.
Luke (28:25):
But it creates a it it it lowers what fasting is so that
it makes us easier for us tohide inside of the word and and
not actually do the corefundamental most commonly
practiced way of fasting. So,yeah, I I do think that, like,
(28:49):
it's not that abstinence fromtime, from things for partial or
whole or time is unimportant toyour spiritual development. I
think that's actually reallygreat. I think we should abstain
from some of these other thingsand see what happens. See if we
like life with less of it ornone of it.
Cameron (29:12):
It's just different.
Luke (29:13):
But it's different. Yeah. It's not the same thing.
Cameron (29:15):
Yep.
Luke (29:16):
And I think at least my, like, my pragmatic argument for
that is at least in being isthat we need to do that so that
we can recover what Fasting.Fasting from food actually is.
Mhmm. Because if we don't and wecontinue to let fasting be this
big category, we're just gonnaget lost in it
Cameron (29:36):
Mhmm.
Luke (29:36):
And not actually practice that one component of it.
Cameron (29:39):
Mhmm. Yep. Agree. Yeah. So So it'll that that whole
sentiment's probably gonna findits way into the sermon.
I'm gonna try and be pastoralabout it, but I also intend to
be, I don't know, just clearthat I I think we need to, like
(29:59):
let's up the devotion Mhmm. Tothe Lord, and let's let's stop
pretending that we're fastingwhen we're abstaining.
Luke (30:12):
Mhmm. I have a question. And maybe this is maybe this is
a good space for it because Idon't I don't know how much time
you're gonna have to, to talkabout all the ins and outs of
fasting in one sermon. Whatwould you say to the outliers of
the facts of the physicallycapable in the fasting practice.
Cameron (30:36):
So either those who Pregnant breastfeeding.
Luke (30:41):
Pregnant breastfeeding work work a significantly
physical and labor intensive job
k.
Or struggle with eating eating disability of some sort.
Yeah. Either they have a medicalthing where they can't abstain
or just mental healthdifficulty, like eating period
(31:01):
is difficult for them. Mhmm.Like
Cameron (31:05):
I would say don't fast. Yeah. You know? I I I would say
don't. Yeah.
I mean, that would be thefasting is meant fasting is
meant to build us, not todestroy us, I think. Mhmm. And
(31:26):
if there is if there is I have,like, I have I I would say
people, like, who are who aremedically sensitive
Luke (31:38):
Mhmm.
Cameron (31:39):
To that, you know, pregnant breastfeeding mothers,
diabetics. Mhmm. Those who haveother, like, nutrient based
disorders or diseases or thingsthat they're, you know, dealing
with. Those who do, suffer fromeating disorders of various
(31:59):
different kinds either inscarcity or in abundance. I
mean, those who just havesignificantly, physically taxing
jobs, I'm not gonna say, youknow, drink a Gatorade and suck
it up type of thing.
Honestly, like Yeah. Yep. Justsuck suck, but type of thing.
Luke (32:19):
Like Cameron went from a very pastoral answer to a, come
on, bro. Yeah.
Cameron (32:25):
Just let I mean, do it. You know? Yeah. Yeah. I mean,
you and I know guys who workphysically probably about as
hard as anyone out there.
Luke (32:35):
Yep.
Cameron (32:36):
And it's a regular practice, and they are finding
it to be very fruitful andbeneficial for their lives. I
also think that there is a Ithink that when we I so I would
tell those people in thosesituations that you you probably
shouldn't. I don't think thatthe law just like fasting is a
(32:58):
whole body activity, or fastingis whole body prayer and that
that reality kind of exalts theimportance of the body Mhmm. In
the same way, we the gift of ourbody that the Lord has given to
us, we wouldn't like, weshouldn't put in knowingly,
(33:25):
like, harm's way.
Luke (33:26):
Yeah. Right? Now, listen, the exception to that is if you
get a
Cameron (33:37):
extraordinarily clear call from the Lord. Mhmm. I'm a
type one diabetic. I'm gettingan extraordinarily clear call
from the Lord. The Lord iscalling me to fast.
I know it. Mhmm. Very, veryclear. Then I'm gonna tell you
as a pastor to, like, in like,ensure the confidence of the
(33:58):
call that it is from the LordMhmm. And then proceed with
prayerful caution.
Luke (34:03):
Mhmm.
Cameron (34:04):
You know? There because there are there are times in
scripture, I think is it MosesMoses and Elijah did, like,
forty day fasts, no food orwater?
Luke (34:16):
Yeah. There are there are accounts of
Cameron (34:20):
total fasts.
Luke (34:21):
No water, no food. Right.
Cameron (34:23):
Which in modern medicine is two Three to four
days without water, and it'sover. You know? And so I I'm not
gonna say that there are notthat that the Lord does not give
special dispensation inmiraculous ways to allow people
to fast for whatever reasonMhmm. Even if there's a medical
instance. I just think that youbetter be super clear Right.
(34:46):
That it's the Lord, obviously,or you're gonna be in a lot of
physical. You're gonna be a lotin a lot of physical danger.
Luke (34:56):
Yeah.
Cameron (34:59):
And the second thing that I would say to that is that
in situations like that, it Ithink it's important for us to
not take an extremist view onwhat fasting the the the, length
of a fast needs to be Mhmm. Orthe extremity of a fast.
Luke (35:20):
Right. That that becomes a place where I would say, let's
be creative a little bit.
Cameron (35:26):
Let's let's look at Daniel fasts. Yeah. Let's do a
Daniel fast.
Luke (35:31):
Mean the Daniel diet?
Cameron (35:32):
The Daniel diet. No. Oh my
Luke (35:34):
That's what it is, Cameron. Don't get
Cameron (35:36):
me oh my gosh. I'm gonna have to preach on that.
Don't even Oh, it's
Luke (35:41):
not a fast, Cam. It's a diet. Cool. Yeah. Anyways The
Daniel fast.
Right?
Cameron (35:48):
So maybe do a Daniel fast. Yeah. Maybe do a, a fast
from all solid foods, but you'regonna be getting nutrients from
a liquid source.
Luke (36:01):
A juice.
Cameron (36:02):
A juice, a shake, a smoothie, or something like
that.
Luke (36:06):
Yep.
Cameron (36:09):
Or fast for even I think even, like, most diabetics
can fast for a meal.
Luke (36:16):
Mhmm.
Cameron (36:16):
Like, if they miss a single meal
Luke (36:19):
Right.
Cameron (36:19):
They may be maybe I'm speaking in a turn. I don't
know. But to say all that to sayYeah.
Luke (36:25):
We're not we're not medical professionals.
Cameron (36:27):
No. Don't take my medical advice. All that to say
is that regardless of the lengthof the fast, the Lord looks at
the heart. Yeah. Yeah.
So if the heart of a person whois medically sensitive says,
lord, I'm gonna fast for as longas I am physically capable of
doing it, which is one full meal
Luke (36:48):
Yep. I I have to believe that it is the that it reaches
Cameron (36:58):
faith as the person that fasts for forty days.
Luke (37:00):
Yeah. Mhmm.
Cameron (37:03):
So that would be my Yeah. I think general counsel.
Luke (37:06):
I think I would say I I think we I mentioned this last
time we talked about fasting orI I think I taught on fasting
maybe a year, year or two ago.Is that for those who struggle
with eating, eating disorder oreven just a physical disability
to be able to do it, is I wouldI would encourage them to lean
(37:29):
into the I'm kind of being alittle flexible here because
it's not really a discipline,but I would lean into the
discipline of feasting. Mhmm.Like, begin to lean into the
theological significance and theeschatological significance of
eating in community. Mhmm.
(37:51):
So Christ says with, the thePharisees asked the disciples,
hey. Why don't you and yourdisciples fast? They're not
fasting. Mhmm. And he says theycannot fast because the
bridegroom is like them.
Yep. I'm here. Yep. And so therethere is intense theological
(38:11):
significance behind having mealstogether. It was something the
church did all the time.
And so if you have a complicatedrelationship with food for any
of those numbers of reasons, itcould be really, really
beneficial to begin to say, howis food not meeting an emotional
need? Or how's my it's not aboutmy relationship to the food.
(38:35):
It's about my relationship withthose that I'm sharing the food
with Mhmm. And how this is likea future taste of, Christ's
coming and our participation inthat in all of eternity Mhmm. At
the supper feast of the lamb.
Mhmm. And so that would be whereI would encourage, a leaning in,
(38:58):
to perhaps even heal some of theemotional and spiritual,
relationship around food in thatregard. Yeah. But it gives a
really positive way of of movingforward with that.
Cameron (39:12):
Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I like that. It it's the other
side of the coin.
Luke (39:18):
Mhmm.
Cameron (39:18):
But
Luke (39:18):
it it yep.
Yeah. Mhmm. Oh, okay. Hopefully, we didn't preach too
much of your sermon.
Cameron (39:25):
Hopefully not, but maybe we just we well, there
there were some things therethat that came out of me. We
were talking about this earlier.Like, sometimes you don't know
what's in you until you starttalking and it just comes out of
you. But there were some thingsthere that came out of me. I'm
like, yeah.
That needs to be said, or thatneeds to be incorporated into
the sermon. So it was helpful.
Luke (39:44):
Cool. Alright. Well, join us next time.
Cameron (39:47):
Join us next time. Thanks for joining us this time.
Luke (39:49):
Yeah. Bye.
Welcome to the uncut podcast. I'm pastor Luke.
Cameron (00:09):
Hi. I'm pastor Cameron.
Luke (00:11):
And this is the uncut podcast where we have honest
uncut conversations about faith,life, and ministry. Well,
welcome back, everybody. Cameronand I are sipping on our
Cameron (00:23):
tea tea, of course. No coffee in this room.
Luke (00:30):
Yeah. We're sitting down to have a conversation. We've
been, how many weeks has it beennow? Three weeks? Four weeks?
Cameron (00:40):
Four weeks, I think. Yeah.
Luke (00:41):
Prayer Mhmm. Up in our service. Maybe the good place to
start with this is just to say,like, what your intention with
the because I know that you havesome really intentionality
around the way you've structuredand chose to talk about prayer.
Cameron (00:57):
Mhmm.
Luke (00:58):
And it's maybe not the way that, you know, somebody
probably not the way I wouldhave written a sermon series
Cameron (01:04):
on prayer.
Luke (01:05):
So, like, tell us about that methodology, and maybe that
will inform form a little bit ofthe way we go about talking
about it here.
Cameron (01:12):
Yep. So I have preached handfuls of series and sermons
on prayers over, you know, thespan of ministry, and most of
them have been somehow connectedto the nuts and bolts or
practical ways in which wecreate a more structured, better
(01:37):
biblical Mhmm. Prayer life.
Luke (01:39):
Yeah.
Cameron (01:40):
So that would include things like taking the lord's
prayer and breaking each stanzadown into a category of type of
prayer.
Luke (01:53):
Mhmm.
Cameron (01:54):
Who who's prayer to? The worship of the father, for
instance. Our daily bread, youknow, petition, asking for
safety from temptation, all ofthat. And then saying, okay, how
do we essentially modernize thethe language around the
(02:16):
categories in order to build astructure of prayer?
Luke (02:19):
Mhmm.
Cameron (02:20):
Or you talk about the importance of persistence from
several of the different Yeah.Parables or stories of Jesus, or
you develop models of prayerlike the, acts model. Right?
Luke (02:35):
Sure.
Cameron (02:36):
Adoration, confession, thanksgiving, supplication Yeah.
As a way. And I think that thosetypes of things are really
valuable, continue to be reallyvaluable Yep.
Luke (02:52):
In helping people to develop a life, a greater life
of prayer.
Mhmm.
I just felt and this is a little bit a little bit, if you
want
Cameron (03:02):
a little bit of an insight into a preacher's mind
and process, and at least thispreacher's mind process,
personal life of devotion
Luke (03:13):
Mhmm.
Cameron (03:13):
Etcetera, is I felt like I just could not preach a
series like that this timearound. And the reason that I
couldn't is because I had becomeso so tired of preaching as form
(03:40):
or I'm sorry. As for, I'd becomeso tired of praying as form
Mhmm. Rather than praying asintimacy. Like, I had just
become so worn out on feeling acall to duty and discipline and
(04:08):
form and structure.
Luke (04:11):
Mhmm.
Cameron (04:11):
And in fact, in the class that I taught last night
on prayer, John Mark Comer said,most of us are afraid to admit
that prayer is boring to us.Mhmm. And I felt I feel that
deeply. I felt that deeply as Iwas thinking about this series.
(04:38):
And so I began to ask the Lordto change my heart, and I began
to do things even earlier in mylife or earlier, to pursue to
actually pursue him.
Mhmm. Pursue his face, seek hisface. And what came out of that,
(05:04):
like, pre season of this prayerseason for me was that the there
was one central theme that Ifelt like the Lord drawing me
back to when it came to prayer.And that was essentially him
saying to me, Cameron, prayer isan invitation to intimacy with
(05:28):
me.
Luke (05:29):
Mhmm.
Cameron (05:30):
Like, I am inviting you to come and experience the thing
that you intrinsically feel yourheart needs and that your soul
longs for, that essentially youwere created for. Yeah. Intimacy
(05:51):
with me. If you are if you aredone with the form, devoid of
power, form devoid of powerMhmm. Then begin to see prayer
as an invitation to come intointimacy with me.
Yeah. And so I wanted to justkind of ask the question of him.
(06:15):
Alright. Well, what would a whathow would I preach this? Like, I
wanna so kind of the theroundabout answer to the
question is I chose this routeor this focus or this theme of
prayer to run through the wholething based off of what the lord
(06:38):
was doing in my life
Luke (06:39):
Mhmm.
Cameron (06:40):
As an overflow of what he's what of what he's been
teaching me.
Luke (06:44):
Right.
Cameron (06:45):
And so these these sermons that I've been preaching
on prayer are not just somethinglike, oh, I'm just pulling them
out of the catacombs of my,like, a book that I read or the
schooling that I have orwhatever the case. Not pulling
them out of the catacombs ofthat. I'm pulling them out of my
prayer journal. Mhmm. I'mpulling them out of my the time
(07:08):
in the secret place.
I'm pulling them out of, like,the last three months of
experience with the lord
Luke (07:14):
Yeah.
Cameron (07:15):
And saying, alright, Lord. I'm trusting that as the
pastor of this place
Luke (07:20):
Mhmm.
Cameron (07:21):
That whatever anointing or blessing you've been giving
to me in this stuff, in thisseason, that you're you're
you're like, give it give it tome so that I can give it to
them. Yeah. So the the whole ofthe the whole of the sir the
series has been built aroundthis idea that god, uses prayer
(07:46):
or that prayer is the is acontext where we develop greater
intimacy with God.
Luke (07:53):
Mhmm.
Cameron (07:53):
And when we see things or interact with things on the
basis of the development ofintimacy, it changes the way
that we approach it incomparison to the way that we
approach something that is likeprayer as just a duty. You just
gotta do it because everyChristian should do it. So
(08:19):
started with prayer, a generalmessage on prayer as invitation
to in intimacy, then prayed orthen preached on the what was
the next one? The secret place.
Luke (08:35):
Mhmm.
Cameron (08:35):
Prayer in the secret place. Yep. And, the well, I
think the like, the power of thesecret place of prayer with the
Lord and what it does. Lastweek, preached on intercession
and the not not just like makingthe list. Mhmm.
(09:02):
Love lists. Yeah. Prayingmyself. But about letting the
Lord lift our vision for ourrole as intercessors and his
desire to co labor with us inthe, like, the building of his
kingdom Mhmm. Here on earth.
(09:26):
And that part of the way that weco labor with him is to join
Jesus in the ministry ofintercession. Jesus is
interceding for us. We'reinterceding for others, but
we're now we're also intercedingfor our city, for our region,
for churches, for I'minterceding for businesses that
(09:48):
they would be filled with thespirit and filled with integrity
and Mhmm. Leverage theirinfluence for the glory of the
kingdom. And so, intercession aslike this invitation to be co
creators of the king of kingdombuilding on the on the earth.
Luke (10:07):
Mhmm.
Cameron (10:08):
And then this week, I'm preaching on fasting.
Luke (10:16):
Yeah.
Cameron (10:17):
Which is, I was reading yesterday, Scott McKnight, has
he he says that fasting is wholebody praying.
Luke (10:29):
Mhmm.
Cameron (10:31):
So the connection between prayer and fasting is
that when we fast, we we weessentially, enlist our bodies
Yeah. Into the act of praying.So it's like a whole body
experience. I loved I loved thatbecause I've often had trouble
(10:56):
kind of discerning and and truthbe told, still do, but I'm okay
with embracing the mystery
Luke (11:05):
Mhmm.
Cameron (11:05):
Of what it is about
Luke (11:08):
fasting that
Cameron (11:12):
brings the power.
Luke (11:14):
Yeah. Because I I wanna I wanna lean in here lean in here
a little bit because I this isthe thing that I think we
struggle with. And there like,why is fasting such a
unpracticed discipline Mhmm. Inevangelical protestant
(11:37):
Christianity? Mhmm.
I won't go so as far as to sayall of Protestantism, but it's
definitely, like, Catholics andOrthodox. Everyone essentially,
anyone who's not Protestant hasa much more robust practice of,
fasting.
(11:57):
Or they or you like, even Catholics, maybe they don't
maybe, like, day to dayCatholics don't they
Cameron (12:08):
don't practice Right. Fasting as often, but they cert
but they're but the the Catholicfaith itself has a robust
theology
Luke (12:19):
Right.
Cameron (12:20):
And an official practice of fasting.
Luke (12:23):
Yeah. I think that's probably a better way of saying
it because I I know that there'sprobably a lot of listeners who
are like, we never fasted when Iwas Catholic or whatever.
Cameron (12:30):
Or, like, yeah. We only ate meat on Fridays, and it was
fished during lent.
Luke (12:35):
Yeah. You know? But they didn't they didn't they didn't
have a concept conceptualizingof it. So Right. That's a good
that's a good distinction tomake.
So that at least officiallyinside of their denomination,
there is a robust theology andspace to practice it. Whereas,
like, the conversation aroundfasting in our circles is always
just, like, why?
Cameron (12:55):
Why would you do that?
Luke (12:56):
Why would you why why is that a thing? And I'll share I
think I I don't think my smallgroup would mind, but, like so
I'm I participate in a smallgroup here at the church, and
we've been doing the differentspiritual disciplines, through
practicing the way we've been.And when we started, there was,
(13:16):
like, it was only a couplecourses out and, like, it was,
like, prayer and fasting. Mhmm.And we're like, well, we're not
doing fasting.
And so we have, like, avoideddoing the fasting practice
because it was like no onewanted to fast. And, our small
group leader, came around. Wewere going to do a different,
(13:37):
like, a different practiceuntil, like, she felt the
conviction. And she was justlike, you know what? Let's fast.
Let's do the fasting practice.That's the one that we're like
all kind of quietly giggling andthen ignoring, because we don't
really wanna do it. And I'lltell you what, like, there is
something. The people who are inthe, in the group participating
(14:01):
in that, like, is everyone hasbeen like, this has been like
our favorite. And, like like, itwas the thing that, like,
everybody was the most reluctantto do, and it's the thing that
has probably brought, the mostparticipation in it.
And so, and I won't oversharemore than that. But, so yeah.
(14:25):
What I wanna go back to thatquote because I think that Scott
McKnight quote is at the core ofit. Fasting is praying with our
whole body. It's whole bodyprayer.
Mhmm. Why is that a difficultthing for us to understand?
Mhmm.
Cameron (14:44):
I think one of the reasons that it's difficult for
us to understand is because wecompart we have
compartmentalized ourrelationship with the Lord to
just the spiritual. Mhmm. Wehave kind of this almost like
pseudo gnostic practice of orpseudo gnostic belief that, you
(15:10):
know, my well, my body's notinvolved in, like, my
spirituality. It's like Yeah.Yeah.
They're separate things. Like,why would I even consider that?
And the, but when it it's almostlike we have forgotten the order
(15:34):
in which we were created. Ourbodies were created first. Like,
God God created a Craig, God Godcreated bodies and put in us his
spirit.
Yeah. He didn't create a spiritand then say, hey. That thing
needs a body. Right.
Luke (15:56):
Like the body's an afterthought.
Right.
Cameron (15:58):
Mhmm. The body wasn't an afterthought. The body was
the first thought.
Luke (16:02):
Mhmm.
Cameron (16:03):
And so I feel like there has been a, we just have
never Western Christianity, Idon't think, has ever really had
a super high view of the body asit pertains to our relationship
with the Lord. We have justassumed that everything is
(16:25):
spiritual Yeah. And a little bitesoteric. Whereas the practice
of fasting, I think it regroundsand anchors us to the reality
that we are whole beings. Mhmm.
(16:47):
And that the things that wepursue in the in our physical
nature and in our body Mhmm. Aremore than just connected to our
spirits, but that they are whatwe do in the body moves in the
spirit realm. Mhmm. It movesthings. Fasting being one of the
(17:14):
most significant, like, I'mgonna talk and I'm gonna take
some license with it thisweekend Yeah.
About the passage in Matthewwhere the disciples are unable
to cast the demon out. Yeah. AndJesus comes along and does it.
And then they come to himafterwards and they say, why
couldn't we? Yep.
(17:35):
And he says, this kind comes outonly by prayer and fasting.
Mhmm. And so that there was a,there was something that needed
to be done in the physicality oftheir bodies that was enormously
(17:56):
powerful in the spiritual realm.And that we to ignore that Yeah.
Is to forfeit the power that Godhas made available in
Luke (18:12):
it. Mhmm.
Cameron (18:17):
I also think that we have become very self indulgent,
and, and we have becomegluttonous. We have become
lovers of pleasure Mhmm. Andhave adopted a form of
(18:44):
Christianity that excuse anytype of suffering.
Luke (18:49):
Mhmm.
Cameron (18:51):
Right? Like, my faith with God, my faith in God, my
relationship with Jesus willnever like, it's all about the
pursuit of happiness. It's allabout the per, like, progress,
blessing, favor, health,vitality. And we just do not
have a theology of suffering.
Luke (19:12):
Mhmm.
Cameron (19:15):
We don't have a theology of suffering that is
redemptive Mhmm. And that isproactive in the building of our
spirits.
Luke (19:22):
Yeah. Like, why would I intentionally endure suffering?
Correct. We do talk aboutsometimes, like,
Cameron (19:29):
what to do when When you suffer.
Luke (19:30):
When you suffer, like, because it's happening and you
didn't choose it. But, like
Cameron (19:34):
But what about when you pursue suffering in the body?
Yeah.
Luke (19:38):
And why would you
Cameron (19:39):
do that? Say those who suffer in the body are what?
Those who suffer in the body aredone with sin. Mhmm.
Luke (19:46):
They
Cameron (19:46):
put to death sin. Yeah. So I think we have a we have a,
a society and a church and, evenreally maybe even a faith
practice that is gluttonous.Mhmm. It lives in excess.
It lives it tries to make makeits home in the absence of
suffering Yeah. Which is theopposite of our Lord.
Luke (20:13):
Mhmm.
Cameron (20:15):
And so it becomes difficult to have it becomes
difficult to, like, evenconsider or talk about why we
would do that. The the third andthis is something that I'm I
don't know. I I like I I wonderwhat you think about this, and
(20:36):
I'm this will come out after Ipreach the sermon on fasting. So
I guess you can go back and makea determination as to you you
can go back and listen to thisand listen to the sermon and
make a determination as to whatdecision I made after this
conversation is, it's connectedto our desire to avoid
(20:59):
suffering, but it's what I whatlike, what I had seen, what I
have seen and experienced, and,and something that I was reading
in Richard Foster
Luke (21:15):
Mhmm.
Cameron (21:16):
About fasting. And he essentially and I don't think he
was making as strong as I intendto make it or as I think I want
to make it.
Luke (21:23):
Mhmm.
Cameron (21:24):
You said that the biblical practice of fasting
always centered around food.
Luke (21:29):
Yeah. How's this gonna be my next question?
Cameron (21:32):
And that he didn't he didn't take it to this, but I'm
gonna take it to this, is thatthe modern Christian, the church
evangelical, WesternChristianity has kind of morphed
fasting into the, like,divesting yourself of other
(21:58):
modern, conveniences. Yeah. Oh,I'm fasting from Netflix today.
I'm fasting from
Luke (22:06):
Right.
Cameron (22:08):
Social media.
Luke (22:09):
Mhmm.
Cameron (22:10):
I'm fasting from Well whatever the case may be.
Luke (22:14):
To to to add to this, I remember being in high school.
First time I was exposed to,like, Lent and fasting. I was
attending a Christian highschool, and our Bible teacher at
the time was like, hey. Like,it's Lent season. You know, I
don't know know that noteverybody's church celebrates or
observes Lent or anything likethat, but it's part of, like,
(22:35):
church history.
And, like, you know, he kindagave us, like, a teaching about
us and kind of, like, you know,maybe put something, like did he
want us to put something, like,anonymously up on the board in
the back or something like that?He, like, had us write on, like,
note cards something we weregonna fast from for the season
of Latin. Mhmm. High schoolguys, like Right. Porn.
(23:01):
Like,
Cameron (23:01):
what's up with the porn?
Luke (23:02):
You know? But, like, a lot of things that went up there
were secular music, because, youknow, it was the that was the
time it was the day and agewhere, like, Christians were all
out against anything that wasn'tChristian. But, anyways,
Cameron (23:18):
Here here's the here's my kind of, like, where I'm
thinking. Like, listen. We don'tfast from things that have
become idols.
Luke (23:28):
Mhmm.
Cameron (23:29):
We smash idols and we remove them from our lives
permanently. Fasting istemporary.
Luke (23:34):
Yeah.
Cameron (23:37):
So we if if something has a level of control over us
Luke (23:46):
Mhmm.
Cameron (23:47):
That we feel the necessity to fast from
Luke (23:50):
it Mhmm.
Cameron (23:53):
Then we should be questioning its purpose in our
life, its place in our life,social media, Netflix. Yeah. You
know, all of those those typesof things. Right? Food is a
necessity of life, that dailybread has clearly been provided
(24:15):
for us in scripture by the Lord.
Mhmm. And so food kind of sitsin a different category of this
is not like, does food become anidol for people? Absolutely.
Just fast from it for fast fromit for a few days and recognize
the power that it has over yourlife. Yeah.
(24:35):
That food has for the power ithas over your emotions.
Luke (24:38):
Mhmm.
The power
Cameron (24:39):
it has over your, over, like, your thoughts, over your
hungers, your affections. Yep.It's got power. So my essential
contention is that we need tostop talking about fasting from
social media and fasting fromYeah. Netflix.
(25:02):
Mhmm. If you need to fast fromthat, maybe you should just quit
it. Right. And instead, justembrace the reality that, like,
fasting in scripture is centeredsolely around food with one
other example excluded, which isPaul's encouragement to fast for
(25:28):
a husband and wife to fast fromsex Mhmm. For a season in order
to devote themselves to prayer.
Right.
Luke (25:37):
Which is again a uniquely physical fast.
There you go. Right.
Cameron (25:44):
So
Luke (25:46):
Yeah. That's, that's something that, like, I've, you
know, I've encountered. I to behonest, a lot of times when it
comes into when that, like,well, I wanna fast from
something other than food. Mhmm.I know that in myself and
(26:07):
generally the vibe I'm gettingfrom where that discussion is
stemming from is sometimes Ifeel more comfortable fasting
from this than I do fasting fromfood.
Yes. So I think it's sometimesit's a it's a comfort factor of
I feel way more comfortablefasting from this. Correct. This
is gonna cause me lessdiscomfort. Correct.
(26:32):
I think the other things I thinkthere's, you know, I think
there's good intention behindabstinence. Either, like, total
abstinence from a thing, whetherthat be social media or Mhmm.
Whatever the thing is that youfeel like you need to abstain
from Mhmm. For either a portionof time or all of the time. I I
(26:55):
think you can abstain fromthings from a season.
I don't think that that's aunhelpful thing. Mhmm. Right?
Cameron (27:04):
No. Absolutely.
Luke (27:05):
And and not and not and not every absence needs to be
total and forever. But I dothink I think I might agree with
you because I think the dangerof allowing because our language
matters. Our language matters.And the using the language of
(27:27):
fasting to talk about fastingfrom social media or, like, your
own abstaining from coffee.You're not fasting from coffee.
You're abstaining from coffee.If you were to use if we you
allow the language of fasting tobe so broad as to encompass
anything that we might abstainfrom for any period of time.
(27:49):
Yeah. What it does is it itwaters the word down so much
Yeah.
Cameron (27:55):
Hijacks it. Yep.
Luke (27:56):
So that I can go and I can say, well, I fast. Right. Do
you, though?
Cameron (28:02):
Right. This tie this kind only comes up my fasting
and prayer. Lord, I gave upsocial media for two days.
Luke (28:08):
Right. I didn't listen to secular rap for a whole month
Cameron (28:13):
or whatever. Damn. Got a reaction. Guilty as charged.
Luke (28:16):
But I I could fast from that, and I'm like, fine.
Cameron (28:20):
Right.
Luke (28:20):
Didn't hurt me at all.
Cameron (28:21):
I don't wanna listen to the gym anymore. I don't listen
to rap.
Luke (28:25):
But it creates a it it it lowers what fasting is so that
it makes us easier for us tohide inside of the word and and
not actually do the corefundamental most commonly
practiced way of fasting. So,yeah, I I do think that, like,
(28:49):
it's not that abstinence fromtime, from things for partial or
whole or time is unimportant toyour spiritual development. I
think that's actually reallygreat. I think we should abstain
from some of these other thingsand see what happens. See if we
like life with less of it ornone of it.
Cameron (29:12):
It's just different.
Luke (29:13):
But it's different. Yeah. It's not the same thing.
Cameron (29:15):
Yep.
Luke (29:16):
And I think at least my, like, my pragmatic argument for
that is at least in being isthat we need to do that so that
we can recover what Fasting.Fasting from food actually is.
Mhmm. Because if we don't and wecontinue to let fasting be this
big category, we're just gonnaget lost in it
Cameron (29:36):
Mhmm.
Luke (29:36):
And not actually practice that one component of it.
Cameron (29:39):
Mhmm. Yep. Agree. Yeah. So So it'll that that whole
sentiment's probably gonna findits way into the sermon.
I'm gonna try and be pastoralabout it, but I also intend to
be, I don't know, just clearthat I I think we need to, like
(29:59):
let's up the devotion Mhmm. Tothe Lord, and let's let's stop
pretending that we're fastingwhen we're abstaining.
Luke (30:12):
Mhmm. I have a question. And maybe this is maybe this is
a good space for it because Idon't I don't know how much time
you're gonna have to, to talkabout all the ins and outs of
fasting in one sermon. Whatwould you say to the outliers of
the facts of the physicallycapable in the fasting practice.
Cameron (30:36):
So either those who Pregnant breastfeeding.
Luke (30:41):
Pregnant breastfeeding work work a significantly
physical and labor intensive job
k.
Or struggle with eating eating disability of some sort.
Yeah. Either they have a medicalthing where they can't abstain
or just mental healthdifficulty, like eating period
(31:01):
is difficult for them. Mhmm.Like
Cameron (31:05):
I would say don't fast. Yeah. You know? I I I would say
don't. Yeah.
I mean, that would be thefasting is meant fasting is
meant to build us, not todestroy us, I think. Mhmm. And
(31:26):
if there is if there is I have,like, I have I I would say
people, like, who are who aremedically sensitive
Luke (31:38):
Mhmm.
Cameron (31:39):
To that, you know, pregnant breastfeeding mothers,
diabetics. Mhmm. Those who haveother, like, nutrient based
disorders or diseases or thingsthat they're, you know, dealing
with. Those who do, suffer fromeating disorders of various
(31:59):
different kinds either inscarcity or in abundance. I
mean, those who just havesignificantly, physically taxing
jobs, I'm not gonna say, youknow, drink a Gatorade and suck
it up type of thing.
Honestly, like Yeah. Yep. Justsuck suck, but type of thing.
Luke (32:19):
Like Cameron went from a very pastoral answer to a, come
on, bro. Yeah.
Cameron (32:25):
Just let I mean, do it. You know? Yeah. Yeah. I mean,
you and I know guys who workphysically probably about as
hard as anyone out there.
Luke (32:35):
Yep.
Cameron (32:36):
And it's a regular practice, and they are finding
it to be very fruitful andbeneficial for their lives. I
also think that there is a Ithink that when we I so I would
tell those people in thosesituations that you you probably
shouldn't. I don't think thatthe law just like fasting is a
(32:58):
whole body activity, or fastingis whole body prayer and that
that reality kind of exalts theimportance of the body Mhmm. In
the same way, we the gift of ourbody that the Lord has given to
us, we wouldn't like, weshouldn't put in knowingly,
(33:25):
like, harm's way.
Luke (33:26):
Yeah. Right? Now, listen, the exception to that is if you
get a
Cameron (33:37):
extraordinarily clear call from the Lord. Mhmm. I'm a
type one diabetic. I'm gettingan extraordinarily clear call
from the Lord. The Lord iscalling me to fast.
I know it. Mhmm. Very, veryclear. Then I'm gonna tell you
as a pastor to, like, in like,ensure the confidence of the
(33:58):
call that it is from the LordMhmm. And then proceed with
prayerful caution.
Luke (34:03):
Mhmm.
Cameron (34:04):
You know? There because there are there are times in
scripture, I think is it MosesMoses and Elijah did, like,
forty day fasts, no food orwater?
Luke (34:16):
Yeah. There are there are accounts of
Cameron (34:20):
total fasts.
Luke (34:21):
No water, no food. Right.
Cameron (34:23):
Which in modern medicine is two Three to four
days without water, and it'sover. You know? And so I I'm not
gonna say that there are notthat that the Lord does not give
special dispensation inmiraculous ways to allow people
to fast for whatever reasonMhmm. Even if there's a medical
instance. I just think that youbetter be super clear Right.
(34:46):
That it's the Lord, obviously,or you're gonna be in a lot of
physical. You're gonna be a lotin a lot of physical danger.
Luke (34:56):
Yeah.
Cameron (34:59):
And the second thing that I would say to that is that
in situations like that, it Ithink it's important for us to
not take an extremist view onwhat fasting the the the, length
of a fast needs to be Mhmm. Orthe extremity of a fast.
Luke (35:20):
Right. That that becomes a place where I would say, let's
be creative a little bit.
Cameron (35:26):
Let's let's look at Daniel fasts. Yeah. Let's do a
Daniel fast.
Luke (35:31):
Mean the Daniel diet?
Cameron (35:32):
The Daniel diet. No. Oh my
Luke (35:34):
That's what it is, Cameron. Don't get
Cameron (35:36):
me oh my gosh. I'm gonna have to preach on that.
Don't even Oh, it's
Luke (35:41):
not a fast, Cam. It's a diet. Cool. Yeah. Anyways The
Daniel fast.
Right?
Cameron (35:48):
So maybe do a Daniel fast. Yeah. Maybe do a, a fast
from all solid foods, but you'regonna be getting nutrients from
a liquid source.
Luke (36:01):
A juice.
Cameron (36:02):
A juice, a shake, a smoothie, or something like
that.
Luke (36:06):
Yep.
Cameron (36:09):
Or fast for even I think even, like, most diabetics
can fast for a meal.
Luke (36:16):
Mhmm.
Cameron (36:16):
Like, if they miss a single meal
Luke (36:19):
Right.
Cameron (36:19):
They may be maybe I'm speaking in a turn. I don't
know. But to say all that to sayYeah.
Luke (36:25):
We're not we're not medical professionals.
Cameron (36:27):
No. Don't take my medical advice. All that to say
is that regardless of the lengthof the fast, the Lord looks at
the heart. Yeah. Yeah.
So if the heart of a person whois medically sensitive says,
lord, I'm gonna fast for as longas I am physically capable of
doing it, which is one full meal
Luke (36:48):
Yep. I I have to believe that it is the that it reaches
Cameron (36:58):
faith as the person that fasts for forty days.
Luke (37:00):
Yeah. Mhmm.
Cameron (37:03):
So that would be my Yeah. I think general counsel.
Luke (37:06):
I think I would say I I think we I mentioned this last
time we talked about fasting orI I think I taught on fasting
maybe a year, year or two ago.Is that for those who struggle
with eating, eating disorder oreven just a physical disability
to be able to do it, is I wouldI would encourage them to lean
(37:29):
into the I'm kind of being alittle flexible here because
it's not really a discipline,but I would lean into the
discipline of feasting. Mhmm.Like, begin to lean into the
theological significance and theeschatological significance of
eating in community. Mhmm.
(37:51):
So Christ says with, the thePharisees asked the disciples,
hey. Why don't you and yourdisciples fast? They're not
fasting. Mhmm. And he says theycannot fast because the
bridegroom is like them.
Yep. I'm here. Yep. And so therethere is intense theological
(38:11):
significance behind having mealstogether. It was something the
church did all the time.
And so if you have a complicatedrelationship with food for any
of those numbers of reasons, itcould be really, really
beneficial to begin to say, howis food not meeting an emotional
need? Or how's my it's not aboutmy relationship to the food.
(38:35):
It's about my relationship withthose that I'm sharing the food
with Mhmm. And how this is likea future taste of, Christ's
coming and our participation inthat in all of eternity Mhmm. At
the supper feast of the lamb.
Mhmm. And so that would be whereI would encourage, a leaning in,
(38:58):
to perhaps even heal some of theemotional and spiritual,
relationship around food in thatregard. Yeah. But it gives a
really positive way of of movingforward with that.
Cameron (39:12):
Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I like that. It it's the other
side of the coin.
Luke (39:18):
Mhmm.
Cameron (39:18):
But
Luke (39:18):
it it yep.
Yeah. Mhmm. Oh, okay. Hopefully, we didn't preach too
much of your sermon.
Cameron (39:25):
Hopefully not, but maybe we just we well, there
there were some things therethat that came out of me. We
were talking about this earlier.Like, sometimes you don't know
what's in you until you starttalking and it just comes out of
you. But there were some thingsthere that came out of me. I'm
like, yeah.
That needs to be said, or thatneeds to be incorporated into
the sermon. So it was helpful.
Luke (39:44):
Cool. Alright. Well, join us next time.
Cameron (39:47):
Join us next time. Thanks for joining us this time.
Luke (39:49):
Yeah. Bye.
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