July 8, 2024 • 46 mins
Join Pastor Luke and Pastor Cameron in this episode of the Uncut Podcast as we discuss the financial dynamics of churches. We explore the perception of churches as businesses, dissecting budget allocations for personnel, facilities, missions, and programs. Emphasizing the importance of transparency and understanding cultural influences on financial choices, we invite listeners to engage in the conversation on church finances.
Social Post From Brady Shearer
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C8rdu8xOAMk/?igsh=MWY0cnhtNTAzN21qZw==
Check out more from Brady Shearer
https://www.youtube.com/@prochurchtoolsshow
Read the study on church finances
https://lakeinstitute.org/research/lake-institute-projects/nscep/
- (00:04) - Introduction
- (01:45) - Mainstream News and Criticism of Churches
- (02:59) - John Oliver's Exposé on Churches
- (03:07) - Brady Shear's Video on Church Spending
- (18:42) - The Church's Financial Health
- (29:05) - The Church's Giving and Tithing
- (30:19) - Church's Use of Funds and Giving
- (32:06) - Pastors' Compensation and Responsibilities
- (33:21) - Perspectives on Church Finances
- (39:56) - Church and Guilt in Giving
- (41:06) - Pastors' Compensation Models
- (43:36) - Extensive Conversation on Church Finances
- (43:42) - Budgeting and Financial Transparency
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Luke (00:05):
Welcome to the uncut podcast. I'm pastor Luke. I am
pastor Cameron. And this is TheUncut Podcast where we have
honest uncut conversations aboutfaith, life, and ministry.
Cameron was trying so hard tonot drop into the microphone as
we did that intro.
Cameron (00:25):
Sorry about that.
Luke (00:28):
So we're, sitting down, and we saw a interesting piece
of, social media the other dayMhmm. That, sparking lots of
conversation in its own. Right?And, like, it's where it was
posted and all of that. And wejust thought it'd be an
(00:50):
interesting conversation to havebecause it's, I don't know, I
feel like I've seen a number ofthere's that 1 documentary that
you and I both have beenfollowing.
It's kind of, quote unquote,making of it's like an
independent documentary of somelike I can't even remember who
that what it's called, but like.
Cameron (01:07):
Religion as business.
Luke (01:08):
Religion as business, which I don't know a ton. It
just seems like some ex churchpeople or ex pastors. They're
not necessarily ex religious.They're just
Cameron (01:18):
it's taking a it's taking a, I don't wanna say
defamatory because I haven'twatched
Luke (01:28):
it, so I don't really Well, yeah. They haven't
Cameron (01:28):
finished it yet. But it's taking a, like, a very
critical look at from thestandpoint of, like, do we
really understand Yeah. Howchurches operate and to what
level they are businesses
Luke (01:43):
Mhmm.
Cameron (01:44):
Rather than religious organizations. Yeah.
Luke (01:46):
And that's kind of a topic. That's a topic that's
been in mainstream news even,oh, that show that with the
British guy, last week tonightor something like that with John
(02:09):
Oliver. It's like a it's like acomedian. He does, like,
comedian, like, kind of like theJohn Stewart show Mhmm. Of or,
like, the daily the dailywhatever.
Whatever those shows used to be.So a mixture of stand up comedy
and news reporting, expose typeof thing. Kind of like Adam
(02:29):
ruins everything back when thatwas, like, really common. So he
did 1 maybe a year ago, maybe 2years ago. If you, like, Google
it, you could find it.
He did 1 exposing churches andkind of made this kind of, like,
essentially this argument thatchurches had should lose their
tax exemption status because ofthe way they use money. So it's
(02:50):
something that's like people arehave been and continue to be and
will continue to be critical ofchurches and how they use their
money.
Cameron (03:00):
Yeah.
Luke (03:01):
So, do you want to tell us a little bit about the, the the
video I I sent
Cameron (03:10):
to you. There's a video where a guy who does a lot of
church marketing, advertising,social media, web stuff, digital
stuff, digital space, BradyShear.
Luke (03:22):
Who we both follow and
Cameron (03:24):
Yeah. I think
Luke (03:24):
pay attention to.
Cameron (03:25):
I think it's great Yeah. Great stuff. I I would I
would say that he is, like, inservice to the church. Mhmm. He
wants to make churches
Luke (03:35):
He does.
Cameron (03:35):
Online spaces Yeah. Better. Yeah. And everything
that is involved in that. Heruns an organization called Pro
Church Tools.
Luke (03:42):
Mhmm.
Cameron (03:43):
Super good, high quality stuff. Yeah. He, made a
video, highlighting some of theresults of the national study of
congregations economicpractices, nsep.org, that in the
(04:07):
in in his video, he highlightedthe, like, the growth the gross
as in whole, not in, like, icky.Yeah.
Luke (04:17):
Yeah. Yeah.
Cameron (04:17):
Right? Right. Gross percentages. The big picture.
The big picture percentages ofhow it was determined that
churches spend their money.
Luke (04:27):
Right. He didn't just for note, he didn't actually say
anything in the video about it.Right. He's just like, here's
the numbers from this website.And then he kinda just invited
his viewers to have a discussionabout it.
Cameron (04:39):
In the comments.
Luke (04:39):
In the comments. I looked on his feed. He hadn't posted
anything, any follow-up where hegives his take. I'm sure that
Right. And give it a week or 2,he probably will put out a blog
or a video and talk morein-depth about his personal
opinions about it.
Right.
Cameron (04:51):
And his
Luke (04:52):
hot take, but he didn't say anything about it. So he
just put the numbers there. Andthen the comments were just
people reacting to that. Yeah.
Cameron (05:00):
And some of them were positive, and some of them were
really negative as you canimagine. Yeah. And I think it's,
you know, probably a lot of itis just based on your
perspective, where you sit.
Luke (05:13):
Mhmm.
Cameron (05:14):
What window are you looking out of?
Luke (05:16):
Mhmm.
Cameron (05:17):
So what's the landscape you're gonna see? Yeah. And, so
the the percentages wereessentially I don't know the
sample size of churches, and Idon't know what their
requirements were. Whatever.These are just just what was
shared in the video.
Right. 49% of a church's budgethad norm in this study had gone
(05:40):
towards personnel.
Luke (05:41):
Mhmm.
Cameron (05:43):
23% towards facility. So that right there is a 72% of
a church's budget goes towardspersonnel and facilities. Yep.
Call it overhead if you want. Idon't know.
But then 11% on missions.
Luke (06:02):
Mhmm.
Cameron (06:03):
10% on programs, and then 7% on admin, which he said
was essentially a, like, acatchall category or like a
miscellaneous category.
Luke (06:16):
Right.
Cameron (06:16):
Where is it gonna where does the numbers fit when
there's no place else for thenumbers to fit?
Luke (06:20):
Right.
Cameron (06:24):
And, and so the reactions to the to those
percentages were were wide andvaried. And so I thought maybe
you'll why don't we just talk alittle bit about that today?
Luke (06:38):
Yeah. Like,
Cameron (06:41):
there had been, you know, I think that, earlier in
ministry for me, meaning yearsago, there was kind of the like,
there was a a generalizedunderstanding of if your church
(07:03):
intends to be financiallyhealthy
Luke (07:05):
Mhmm.
Cameron (07:06):
What would be appropriate percentages to be
represented in overhead expense?Yeah. And 1 of the most
significant, what you'll whatcould be called overhead
expenses in the church ispersonnel costs. Yes. That would
be salaries, taxes for thosesalaries.
(07:26):
Mhmm. You know, the church paysself employ you know, we're an
employer just like any otheremployer. We have employees.
Taxes, and, any insurancesassociated with insurance
associated with that workers'comp and Mhmm. On disability and
all that.
Any other fringe benefits toemployees, salaries or health
(07:49):
care or, retirement benefits,anything like that. Yeah. And
the general, like, understandingwas that the closer that you can
get that number to, like,between 42 45%
Luke (08:02):
Mhmm.
Cameron (08:03):
The better. Yeah. That is kinda, like, was kinda like
the standard rule of thumb. Yep.And so I'm not really surprised
to see this number at 49%.
No. At all.
Luke (08:12):
Me neither.
Cameron (08:14):
I think that the question is, what is the
question for me has always been,if you how what is your
perspective
Luke (08:28):
Mhmm.
Cameron (08:28):
On the role of personnel within the church?
Right. And because the and andand and perspective varies
really widely. I I've had peoplewhen they find out, for
instance, what I make when thechurch pays me as a salary, I've
(08:50):
had people be really offended inboth directions.
Luke (08:54):
Offended that it was too much and offended that it was so
little?
Cameron (08:57):
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I've I've had people say, you know,
like, oh, it must be nice to bea pastor. No.
K. That's a topic for anotherpodcast. And then I've had
people on the other side say,like, like, that seems low given
(09:18):
the responsibility that youhave. Yeah. The education you
have.
Right. The experience you have.So it like, opinions vary
Luke (09:27):
Yes.
Cameron (09:27):
On that. Mhmm. They vary. But my opinion is that is
that it is a little bit of a redherring to talk about personnel
costs outside of theconversation about talking about
(09:48):
missional or theologicalattachment to those costs. Yeah.
And what I mean by that is thatif you because then now you're
gonna look at these percentagesand say, well, church only
spends 11% on missions. Right.The the word missions is really
(10:13):
vast and lots of people havelike, what does even that mean?
Like, does this mean, like,money that it sends to
missionaries? Does this meanit's the whole of its outreach
budget, outreach locally,regionally
Luke (10:29):
Right.
Cameron (10:30):
Internationally? Does this include what does this
include for like, if if thechurch has a, like, an
evangelism any sort ofevangelistic ministry or
discipleship ministry oranything like that. Yep. Is that
included in missions or is thatincluded in programs? Or is it
(10:54):
included as I think it is inpersonnel?
Right. Because is
Luke (11:00):
is the assumption that your staff we're just paying our
staff to sit in a room and notDo ministry. Do ministry.
Cameron (11:08):
Right. So I always tell people that personnel expenses
are ministry expenses. Right.They they they that's money that
is expended towards mission.Counseling, evangelism,
(11:29):
discipleship, the teaching ofthe word, the leading of worship
Right.
The praying over the sick. Mhmm.That 49% that seems like such a
bloated number in the budgetactually represents the largest
percentage or capacity ofmissional or ministry expense
(11:53):
that a church has. Right. And soI think that numbers like this
are a little deceiving becauseit assumes a description of a
business model.
Luke (12:04):
Mhmm.
Cameron (12:06):
Where we're a let's say we're just a, you know, we're a
family run business and, oh,they it's a, you know, for
profit business, and it justpays its employees 49% of its
budget. Right. Virtually no 1would say, oh, yeah. It's too
much.
Luke (12:25):
No. That's I mean, it's a it depends on, like so I have a
a little bit of extraperspective. I've done Did some
reading recently on a bookcalled, Profit First, which is a
model of running your smallbusiness finances. And he
essentially like, it's it's alittle bit of, like, mental,
(12:50):
mental finagling, how you viewfinances inside of a small
business, but also, the bigportion of it is that it lands
with a, like, these aregenerally recommended healthy
percentages, to be used oncertain categories, operating
expenses, personnel expenses,and things like that, for
different sized businesses. Andthose percentages, what it like,
(13:14):
they don't really overlap toomuch except for the, what, the
facilities, the admin, and thepersonnel, like programs and
because there's no profit.
Right? So it's not a so there'snot a thing. But the personnel
expenses and then the costs ofoperating are all pretty doggone
(13:36):
close to what, like, isrecommended for even just a
small business to operate.
Cameron (13:41):
Mhmm.
Luke (13:42):
And but then here's the other thing too, is that if you
were to look at, it's a littlebit of a matter of scale. If you
were to look at, like, a smallchurch, right? Like maybe 100,
150 people, 1 person on staff,or maybe 1 and a half. Right? 1
(14:03):
person full time staff,presumably a senior pastor,
somebody who's like part timesecretary.
That's like a lot of That's asignificant amount of churches
throughout the United States fitthat model. I would wager that
their expense category onpersonnel is above 50% probably.
Cameron (14:22):
Probably. Yeah.
Luke (14:23):
And that's just because there's less money in the pot
overall. If there was moremoney, if the church was bigger
and had more money to deal, thepercentages would do. So there's
a little bit of a, a matter ofscale that comes into play with
each congregation and eachchurch.
Cameron (14:43):
Yeah. I think 1 of the I guess, I mean, maybe I'll just
pose this as a question. Yeah.Is the church a business? I
don't think so.
Yeah. I don't think so either.Why? Does the church utilize
(15:07):
some business practices? Yeah.
Yeah. And are those 2 thingsdifferent?
Luke (15:15):
Yes. Yeah. Right? Right. But because what makes a
nonprofit versus for profit?
Right? Like, what's thedifference there? Like, where a
profit business is alwaysconcerned about, like, the
bottom line. Right? And and howmuch money how much can we do,
(15:36):
how much product can we sell,and have the most amount of
money left over after wefinished selling our product,
whatever that is, whether that'sa service or whatever.
Cameron (15:45):
Mhmm.
Luke (15:46):
For us, if we have we wanna be financially
responsible, right? We don'twanna always be running like
right at the line so that likeif something catastrophic were
to happen, the church, like,falls under because it doesn't
have money to pay the bills. Butif we have so much left over and
we're like, yay. Like, we'reactually probably failing at
(16:07):
what we're supposed to be doingbecause money unspent is
ministry unspent. Unspent.
Yeah. And so, like, a churchthat is just squirreling away,
you know, what would classicallybe called profit and just sits
in a bank account that doesn'thave a plan, doesn't have a
purpose, is just kind of sittingthere for the accruement of it.
(16:31):
That's ministry that could bedone to people or done with
people, for people through thechurch. That's just
Cameron (16:37):
not being done. Right. And I will tell you that there's
nothing like, there are manynonprofits Mhmm. In the world
that make a profit. Yes.
It's not the the the termnonprofit is, like, just, like,
the the wording that the IRSuses to determine who has 501c3
(16:59):
status or not, which is reallyjust a particular tax
Classification. Taxclassification Right. Rather
than a permission or notpermission to actually be in the
black, be even, or be red Yeah.At the end of the year. Mhmm.
And, so I I think that there's alittle bit of AII think it's a
(17:22):
little bit of a it's misleadingto say that the church is not a
business because I think whatthe I think what the, assumption
there is is that because thechurch has at the center of its
purposefulness in in the mostbroad terms Mhmm. Religious
(17:46):
orientation or goals orphilosophy or mission or
whatever, then it thereforeshould operate not as a
business, but it should havesome kind of like higher
standard upon which it operates.But then it like, we feel it
really doesn't allow Mhmm. Thechurch to manage or organize
(18:10):
itself in a responsible way.
Luke (18:13):
Right.
Cameron (18:13):
Right? Like you I I would think that most people
would want churches to be wellrun. Yeah. Using appropriate
business practices that arecontextual for an organization
like ours.
Luke (18:31):
Right. Right? Like, for example, like, if because okay.
Let's say we're like, alright.We're we our our goal is to at
the end of each month or eachquarter or whatever, have 0
money in the balance.
Right? We're we're we're we'respending it all, and then, and
(18:53):
it's all being used, it's allbeing sent out, whatever. Like,
we're essentially setting thechurch to live paycheck to
paycheck Yeah. And and to put itin personal finance terms.
Cameron (19:08):
Right.
Luke (19:09):
But then let's say the economy drops and then the
church and people stop giving asmuch or whatever. Right?
Something happens that affectsthe income of the church or the
roof falls in, something happensthat there's this big expense
that the church suddenly has to.And church is like, well, we
don't have anything to helpbuffer that. We have to close
our doors.
(19:29):
Mhmm. And all of a sudden, thecongregation's like, well, why
did our church close down? Well,we had this philosophy that,
like, we felt like it was sinfulor wrong to have any money left
over as, like, a buffer forexpenses and operating. And so
we never had any saved.
Cameron (19:46):
Right. We didn't wanna act we we didn't wanna be a
business. We didn't wanna actlike a business.
Luke (19:49):
We didn't wanna act like a business. Yeah. Well, that's
that's pretty irresponsible,particularly, like, if the
congregation wants the church tocontinue to be around Right.
Even if, you know, there's ayear or 2 of hard finances. So,
you know, and then there'sobviously there's a line at
which like, okay, at what pointare we saving to be responsible
and saving just for like anemotional reason or for
Cameron (20:14):
Like security.
Luke (20:15):
Security reason.
Cameron (20:16):
Right. Yeah.
Luke (20:16):
Or for, like, a reason that's that is no longer in line
with, you know, with what wefeel like we ought to be doing
with that money. But the Right.You know, you want the church to
continue to be here, the churchhas to operate in a way that
allows it to be more stable.
Cameron (20:37):
Yeah. Yeah. Most people would say that, yeah, we'd like
to go to a church that has aroof on it.
Luke (20:44):
Right.
Cameron (20:44):
And that is climate controlled in some ways, has a
heater in the winter or AC inthe summer, or that has power
and the lights are on. It's notjust dark or
Luke (20:54):
Has a bathroom inside.
Cameron (20:55):
Has a bathroom. Right? Like, all those are those are
facility costs, and they're thecost of operating and and being
able to offer ministry topeople. Yep. And so it like this
building that we're in now, is anice building.
Luke (21:20):
Mhmm.
Cameron (21:21):
It's it's big. It fits it's maybe a little bit small
for our size. Like we couldstand to have a little bit more
space.
Luke (21:28):
Yeah.
Cameron (21:30):
And, but, like, as a as a responsible financial
practice, like, we we madeefforts to pay this building off
and so it's like debt free. Andwe we try we have tried over the
years to do infrastructureupdates to it to make sure that
(21:55):
we're protecting our investment,new roofs, new heating system,
cooling system, graduallyreplacing windows, parking lot,
you know, things like that sothat we can we can use the
facility in a way that allows usopportunity to be in ministry
(22:18):
Mhmm. To people here in our, youknow, in our region. So even the
23% on facilities, I'm like,well, why do you need that?
Well, we don't need it.
Luke (22:32):
Yeah. I mean, we could do church in the dark.
Cameron (22:34):
Yeah. We can do church in a 10 out front like we
Luke (22:37):
Like we just did.
Cameron (22:38):
Like we just did. We can do church a lot of different
ways, but just because we haveit doesn't necessarily mean that
we're somehow, like, notfulfilling our role or purpose
of the church because we do haveexpenses that are similar to or
(22:59):
exactly like a business.
Luke (23:02):
Mhmm.
Cameron (23:03):
We're not a business primarily. No. We're not. We're
we're the community of believersin Jesus Christ here, but we
utilize business practices
Luke (23:16):
Mhmm.
Cameron (23:16):
In order to ensure that we're living with integrity as
to the resources that have beenentrusted to us. Yeah. So we
manage our money and we havebudgets and we save when we can.
We spend a lot of money. A lotof money in ministry and mission
of which is included personnelwho work directly with people
Luke (23:40):
Right.
Cameron (23:41):
For the purposes of their salvation. Yeah. So I will
be interested to see what thatdocumentary is like. Yeah. In
some of the small clips thatI've seen on it, I I do notice
(24:02):
that a lot of their criticismnot of their criticism.
Of their reporting is donetowards the Mormon church.
Luke (24:11):
Oh, really?
Cameron (24:12):
Yes. Yeah. Which is like I don't know. It's some
crazy stuff. Yes.
They're like the 4th largestlandowner in the United States.
Yep.
Luke (24:23):
Yeah. I remember that.
Cameron (24:24):
Yeah. And
Luke (24:25):
they they buy up a lot of land and Yes. And they just
kinda hold on to
Cameron (24:29):
it. Right. And so they're at the the value of
their assets is in the 1, 000,000, 000 of 1, 000, 000, 000 of
dollars. Mhmm. But they enjoy
Luke (24:42):
Tax exempt status. So they own all that property, but don't
pay any taxes on. Right. Yeah.It's there's this there's there
in this conversation is a reallytricky thing is because in some
people's minds, like, when, likeI don't know.
If if we were if we were to justwalk up, we were dropped out of
(25:03):
content. We were not inJamestown. We were just in some
random city, walked up to ransome random person. And we just
kinda, like, went up to a lineof people and we said, we are
pastors. Draw a picture of whatyou think that means, what we
look like, what, like, ourlifestyle looks like.
You'll get 2 very differentpictures. 1 would be maybe
(25:25):
informed by, like, childhoodexperience or experience in a
local church of, like, that's ofsmall to medium moderate in
size. Like, something like us,maybe a little bit smaller,
maybe a little bit bigger, butthey would kind of draw kind of
some sort of picture. That kindof typified by, when my wife
(25:46):
started telling people that shewas engaged in getting married
to a pastor, she got a lot ofcomments of, like, like, you're
never gonna make any money.You're never gonna be able to go
on vacations, say goodbye to,like, nice things.
You know, like, a lot of peoplemade a lot of assumptions that,
you know, me and my wife weregonna be, like, 2 steps from,
(26:06):
like, being in poverty, being ina cardboard box or something
like that. And, that's not true,but that is kind of the extreme
of the 1 end is that this, youknow, pastors as kind of just
average normal people or evenpeople who are sometimes making
less than the average person.And then the other end of the
spectrum would be people's like,typified by like, oh, well that
(26:27):
means you're gonna have likereally expensive clothes, and
you're gonna have a house that'slike a mansion, all paid for by
the church, and, like, you'regonna, like, be this kind of,
like, minor celebrity and, like,this huge kind of megachurch
image that gets painted.
Cameron (26:44):
Mhmm.
Luke (26:45):
And the thing is, is that the mega church pastor is the
minority of pastors Mhmm. Butgets the majority of the
tension. But what they'resaying, what they have in their
mind is they're talking about isthey're picturing 1 or 2 or 4,
(27:10):
celebrity pictures, pastors whocome into their mind, right, Who
just live these extravagantlifestyles. And what they're
ignoring is they're ignoring theother 99% of pastors who make a
living salary that's probablyaround the medium of whatever
the community that they live in.Mhmm.
(27:31):
And that's where thisconversation gets kind of
polarized, I think. Mhmm. Iswanting to kind of legislate and
control or dominate, like, theperceived lifestyle of the
minority without anyconsideration of the majority.
Cameron (27:47):
Mhmm. I yeah. I I'm not really, like, a single thing to
that. I agree
Luke (27:52):
Yeah. Completely. Yeah. Yeah. I think 1 of the things
that I like as people were kindof reacting really strongly to
the, like, oh, I can't believethe church spends so little on
missions.
Right? That was 1 of the thatwas 1 of the sentiments that was
expressed in the comments ofthat video. And you kind of were
(28:15):
hinting at it at the beginningkind of with your like, well, is
not missions what the churchdoes, period?
Cameron (28:22):
Right.
Luke (28:23):
Mhmm. And I do think that we that there's a little bit of
a presupposition that is beingbought into suddenly. And we've
kind of just been talking aboutit without naming it, but it's
this presupposition that thechurch the church having money
(28:43):
is a bad thing. Right. That'skind of this and I think that's
maybe brought on by, like,exposes and, like, you know,
documentaries and stuff that arehighlighting the excesses and
the abuses of some of this incertain pastors or certain
ministries.
But it's coming to this justlike, oh, well, the church
(29:05):
having money is a bad thing. Thechurch it was interesting some
of the, some of the commentswere just like, wow. Our
churches really should betithing better.
Cameron (29:24):
Tithing to where?
Luke (29:25):
Tied tie exactly. That that there's this assumption
that the church like, the churchhaving money to spend on
ministry, on its goals ofadvancing the gospel of
preaching and discipling andbaptizing people and teaching
them to obey all things in thename of the lord Jesus Christ
Mhmm. Is not a thing. Like,that's not enough. The church
(29:48):
needs to also be giving away itsmoney elsewhere.
I'm not saying that churchescan't do that Right.
Cameron (29:57):
Or
Luke (29:57):
shouldn't do it. Mhmm. But the assumption that the church
should also be, it's kind ofthis, like, assumption that the
church is not enough is not theend goal of the kingdom of God
to begin with, and that it hasto be going somewhere else.
Cameron (30:12):
Right. Right. Yeah. I can see that. Yeah.
Yeah. I I'm thinking of, like,passages in Acts, the book of
Acts, where it's really clearthat even, like, from time to
time, people sold a plot of landand they brought the money and
they placed it at the feet ofthe apostles. Right. Right? Like
(30:35):
that it was pretty wellestablished principle that even
from the beginning of the churchthat they were a receiver Right.
Of they they were they were areceiver of funds ostensibly so
that they could be a user offunds. Right. Right. So that but
(30:59):
it's not as if, like, this wetalk about, like, oh, the church
has so much money. Mhmm.
It's not as if, like, the churchjust goes out there and does
shady business deals and takesit from people. No. Right? At at
(31:19):
its core, the church has moneybecause the people who are the
church Mhmm. Have determinedthat the pooling of their
resources for the mission ofthat specified church Mhmm.
Is important to them. So theycreate a kitty Yeah.
(31:39):
Essentially. And then they agreeupon how that money is going to
be spent Yes. In most cases.
Right? And in really all casesin some way, shape, or form. And
so then they go about spendingthat money, which is their
money.
Luke (31:58):
Their money.
Cameron (31:58):
Their money in the way that they've decided is
important. Right. To them. Yes.Okay.
I guess the question that mostpeople who have a difficulty
with this is like, well, doesn'tthe church guilt people into
(32:19):
giving them money? And I wouldsay in all honestly, some
churches do. Mhmm. Some pastorsdo.
Luke (32:33):
Mhmm.
Cameron (32:34):
You know, they leverage, they try to leverage
the scriptures to include, youknow, like a theological belief
that that blessing
Luke (32:55):
Yeah.
Cameron (32:56):
Personal blessing and favor follows those who give
extravagantly to the Lord,extravagantly to the church.
Luke (33:07):
Mhmm.
Cameron (33:08):
Does that happen? Yeah. Of of course.
Luke (33:11):
But it's not a it's not a vending machine.
Cameron (33:13):
It's not. No. And it's also not a universal principle.
Like you said, it's kind of thesame thing as the conversation
around, it's kind of the samething as the conversation around
celebrity pastor Mhmm. Salaries.
So you can't take the smallsample size and apply it to the
whole and expect it to be true.Mhmm. Additionally, there are, I
(33:39):
learned this in seminary,actually. Yep. I went to
seminary in Dayton, Ohio, whichhas a much higher, which is a
much more diverse area than Ilive and grew up in in Western
New York.
You know? There's a, greater,greater percentage of Americans
(33:59):
that live there.
Luke (34:00):
Mhmm.
Cameron (34:02):
And, they really wouldn't consider themselves
like, there's no no place inOhio is considered, like, down
south. But,
Luke (34:10):
I mean, we get a little Appalachian.
Cameron (34:13):
Yeah. But but some of the cultural values
Luke (34:20):
Yeah.
Cameron (34:20):
In the African American church
Luke (34:22):
Yes.
Cameron (34:22):
Are a lot different than cultural values in white
churches. And 1 of theircultural values is that their
pastors are extraordinarily wellpaid and are they desire pastors
to live what may look like. It'susually not, but what may look
like extravagant lifestyles.Yeah. Very well dressed.
Luke (34:46):
A decent car.
Cameron (34:47):
Very nice cars. Yeah. Right. Expensive jewelry for
pastor and first lady of thechurch.
Luke (34:56):
Yep.
Cameron (34:57):
Right. Not because it's out of like not not because it's
out of like greed at all, butbecause they have a cultural
value, which I understand andappreciate. They have a cultural
value of of seeing the pastor behonored
Luke (35:19):
Right.
Cameron (35:20):
By its congregation, be honored extravagantly in their,
salary or payment or whatever tothat pastor That they are in
keeping with, like, the, thescripture. They are worth they
are worthy of double honor.
Luke (35:39):
Right.
Cameron (35:39):
They have plowed the grain. Mhmm. So we shouldn't
muzzle that ox. He should eatfrom the grain that he plows
from. Right.
And and that really in theAfrican American church is not a
questioned value at all. No.That's a well accepted value.
Luke (35:57):
Yeah. Right? And I can even think of the opposite
because I have friends who arein the Asian American church,
and it is the opposite.
Cameron (36:07):
It's a vow of poverty.
Luke (36:08):
It's a vow of poverty. Sure. They're it they they
become concerned if theirpastors make too much. Like,
they would much rather theirpastors live at or below where
the rest of the congregationmakes.
Cameron (36:23):
Yeah.
Luke (36:24):
And it's not I don't think it's quite as explicit. It kind
of just kinda happens that way,at least in at least in the
handful of Asian Americancongregations. I've interacted
with with this, which isactually more than more than 3.
So I like but it was it true isit was true at each 1. And so it
(36:45):
yeah.
There's a spectrum there. Mhmm.But sorry. I didn't mean to
finish.
Cameron (36:49):
No. III think that that you know, like and I don't I
think a lot of white churchesmaybe kinda fall. I I you you
see it. I mean, like, there'sthing there's churches of all
cultural backgrounds. Yes.
All sides of those spectrums, ofcourse. But, and a lot of it is
(37:10):
relative as well. Yeah. Youknow? A pastor living near the
poverty line in SouthernCalifornia who's Asian.
Right. High Asian population inSouthern California or in the
Bay Area, even San Franciscoarea, whatever. They probably
make a lot more than I do.Right. I don't live near the
poverty line here.
No. But I'm also not, like,considered wealthy. Right. Even
(37:34):
close. Yeah.
Right. So it's like theperspective geographical areas.
Yep. Life situations are allthey can all kind of Yeah. They
all matter Mhmm.
Luke (37:45):
In that conversation. What do you say to the person who
says, well, pastor should eitherbe by vocational or they should
just have another job so thatthe church does not pay for
them, pay them. What do you sayto someone who kinda says that?
Like, you should be by byvocational so that the church
(38:08):
doesn't have to pay you.
Cameron (38:11):
I would say that is a that's a fair ask
Luke (38:16):
Mhmm.
Cameron (38:18):
As long as the person understands the consequences of
a pastor who's not solelyfocused on ministry in that
church. Mhmm. Like, if you'regonna say to your pastor, you
need to get another job or youshould have another job so the
church doesn't pay you, Youcan't also say to your pastor,
we expect you to be at everymeeting, to visit everyone in
(38:42):
the hospital, to be at thebedside of every sick person or
dead person. On call? Yeah.
Do every funeral, every wedding,be on call, show up, you know,
do the Sunday morning stuff, dothe Wednesday evening stuff, run
the youth group, like, all ofthat. Like, you you have to
understand that they have abiblical requirement also to
(39:04):
provide for their family. Right.And they're just their very own
needs by the work of theirhands.
Luke (39:09):
Yeah.
Cameron (39:10):
You know? And so if you're gonna say like, yeah, you
need to go make your livingsomewhere else. What you're
saying is come do this for free.Mhmm. Which is not a biblical
principle.
Mhmm. It's not a principle that,even Jesus himself said, you
know, that, we see this inJesus. We see it in Paul Yep.
(39:34):
That, you know, do not muzzlethe ox as it's treading the
grain Mhmm. Which is to say, asthe ox runs around treading the
grain of the ancient, of ancientin the ancient near east.
Luke (39:47):
Just pulling a grindstone around and around the circle.
Cameron (39:49):
Right.
Luke (39:50):
Don't sweep up the grain so that the mocks can't stop
every once in a while and eat alittle bit.
Cameron (39:54):
Right. Because they're doing the work. Mhmm. They're
they're they're in the middle ofthe labor. They deserve part of
the fruit of that labor.
Luke (40:06):
Yeah.
Cameron (40:07):
So, I would say that, it's a shortsighted opinion
Mhmm. To say to your pastor, youneed to go get another job so
that you can, so that we don'thave to pay you. But that's also
a different thing from sayingit's a it's a different thing
(40:27):
than maybe a pastor who choosesto do that.
Luke (40:29):
I have I know some pastors who don't even like by
vocational ministry. They liketo call it co vocational because
they see it as part of amission.
Cameron (40:37):
Sure.
Luke (40:37):
They're like, I wanna have 2 vocations, so that I stay
connected in the world or theysee it as a gift to the church,
you know, and that's great.Like, I'm I'm not I'm not trying
I wasn't asking the question todis on, like, that model of
church cause I think it worksand is the right model for many
(40:59):
churches. And many pastors youfeel called to it. But you're
right.
Cameron (41:04):
III kinda diss on that model of church.
Luke (41:06):
I mean, I'm not in it. I'm not in that model.
Cameron (41:09):
Well, I would say, like, I would say that the only
appropriate the only time thatthat's appropriate is if the
pastor chooses that forthemselves, not ever if the
church chooses that for thepastor. Yeah. But that's my
opinion Yeah. My opinion on it.Yeah.
Luke (41:25):
Well, I mean, it's just like, it's because there are
churches that have, like, thatpay nobody anything. Mhmm. You
know?
Cameron (41:35):
Are there certain denominations that do that? Is
there Yeah. Are there is there adenomination that is like all of
their pastors are lay? Yes.
Luke (41:44):
The Plymouth Brethren. Okay. I think Why do I
Cameron (41:51):
know someone or we just had a conversation with someone
who is like in a denominationwhere that was the case?
Luke (41:55):
Ox, my wife, the churches she grew up in, which were
Slavic American churches, theytypically not like across the
board always, but they typicallyhave no staff pastor. They have
a single pastor and then theyhave elders and deacons, but
they don't pay any like singularperson. And so then they'll have
(42:16):
multiple people preach on aSunday. There's, I think,
Quakers.
Cameron (42:25):
I
Luke (42:25):
don't even know if Quakers are still around. I think they
probably are, just not in largeamounts. Hipper church church,
like, house church models.
Cameron (42:39):
Okay. Yeah. I
Luke (42:39):
don't know if those are still thriving, but that kind of
model was similar to, you know,they generally had kind of
convictions around that as well.Right. Kind of destructure the
church.
Cameron (42:54):
Mhmm. So I feel like I was actually having a
conversation with someone whoascribed to that model or Right.
It'll come to me.
Luke (43:03):
It's, I mean, it's it's it's different. It's it's going
to come, like you said, withdifferent expectations. Like,
the church as a whole is gonnahave to carry more of the
burden.
Cameron (43:13):
Mhmm.
Luke (43:13):
Like, as a whole, you know, you the expectations
around what your pastors willand will be will not be able to
do. Mhmm. Simply because of, youknow, the fact that they have
full time jobs Sure. In order topay for themselves. It's gonna
make a it's gonna make an impacton the way it kinda functions.
(43:34):
So
Cameron (43:35):
Yeah. Yeah. So I I the whole conversation is, you know,
it can be pretty extensive, prebe pretty I was doing, like, for
this morning, I was doing I wasI was doing budgeting here
Luke (43:48):
Mhmm. For
Cameron (43:49):
us. Like, I was looking at our budget, looking at
Luke (43:52):
Seeing how we're doing so far?
Cameron (43:53):
Yep.
Luke (43:53):
Yeah.
Cameron (43:53):
Just seeing what the numbers are because, you know,
we're literally halfway throughthe year.
Luke (43:59):
I know. It was like August we're supposed to start
Cameron (44:01):
budgeting for the Yeah.
Luke (44:03):
The next year. So yeah. Which goes which by the way, our
budget goes before theleadership team Mhmm. Which is
made out of people who are partof the congregation Mhmm. Who's
in a proved budget.
Cameron (44:15):
Correct. Right?
Luke (44:16):
It's not Yeah. You and I just writing blank checks.
Cameron (44:18):
Right. Approve the spending, approve personnel
costs, approve all of that.Yeah. So, so, yeah, like, it was
part of my work today as pastorand just preparing for a meeting
later this week that I'll haveto present some of that
information to the congregation.Yeah.
And, but, Yeah. I think quest orconversations like this are
(44:40):
important because often it'sthings are kind of shrouded in a
veil of mystery and questionsYeah. And, like, information
that's just not that's it's notjust it's just not nuanced, I
think, enough. Yeah. And so bigbold statements can be made but
that are not necessarily true.
(45:00):
Like, oh my gosh, they just thischurch just pays 50% of all its
money to people. Doesn't even doministry with it. I think that
that's a it's just a weird it'sit's a statement that's really
misleading.
Luke (45:13):
Right.
Cameron (45:14):
Yeah.
Luke (45:14):
Because it's I don't know. It's a it like, it when you say
it that way, like, oh my gosh.We're just giving money to the
staff?
Cameron (45:23):
Mhmm.
Luke (45:23):
Well, no. You're paying the staff to do things
Cameron (45:26):
Right.
Luke (45:26):
To, like, perform duties as assigned
Cameron (45:30):
To carry out ministry.
Luke (45:32):
Which yeah. Which those include, you know, praying for
people, preaching the word,running your con your kids'
ministry, like, any number ofthings that are ministry
oriented.
Cameron (45:45):
Mhmm.
Luke (45:46):
And, like, it's not like you're literally just like the
we don't just walk in here andsay, all right, I'm here to pick
up my check, And then we justwalk back out.
Cameron (45:55):
Right.
Luke (45:55):
And then we do not do anything.
Cameron (45:56):
Yeah. Just work for 4 hours on Sunday and that's it.
Luke (45:59):
That's it. That's all we really do. We just watch YouTube
the rest of the week. Right. Wedon't do anything else.
Cameron (46:06):
Well, if you I mean, if you guys have any our listeners
out there, viewers have anyother questions about stuff like
this or clarifications maybe,always shoot them our way either
on our text line, 716-201-0507.Can't believe I remember that
after a month off. Or drop themin the comments here. As always,
if you would share this episodeor the podcast with other
(46:28):
people, you can like it andwhatever platform that you're
listening to it or rate it.Subscribe, comment, do all the
things.
That'd be a great help, and,we'll, catch you next week.
Welcome to the uncut podcast. I'm pastor Luke. I am
pastor Cameron. And this is TheUncut Podcast where we have
honest uncut conversations aboutfaith, life, and ministry.
Cameron was trying so hard tonot drop into the microphone as
we did that intro.
Cameron (00:25):
Sorry about that.
Luke (00:28):
So we're, sitting down, and we saw a interesting piece
of, social media the other dayMhmm. That, sparking lots of
conversation in its own. Right?And, like, it's where it was
posted and all of that. And wejust thought it'd be an
(00:50):
interesting conversation to havebecause it's, I don't know, I
feel like I've seen a number ofthere's that 1 documentary that
you and I both have beenfollowing.
It's kind of, quote unquote,making of it's like an
independent documentary of somelike I can't even remember who
that what it's called, but like.
Cameron (01:07):
Religion as business.
Luke (01:08):
Religion as business, which I don't know a ton. It
just seems like some ex churchpeople or ex pastors. They're
not necessarily ex religious.They're just
Cameron (01:18):
it's taking a it's taking a, I don't wanna say
defamatory because I haven'twatched
Luke (01:28):
it, so I don't really Well, yeah. They haven't
Cameron (01:28):
finished it yet. But it's taking a, like, a very
critical look at from thestandpoint of, like, do we
really understand Yeah. Howchurches operate and to what
level they are businesses
Luke (01:43):
Mhmm.
Cameron (01:44):
Rather than religious organizations. Yeah.
Luke (01:46):
And that's kind of a topic. That's a topic that's
been in mainstream news even,oh, that show that with the
British guy, last week tonightor something like that with John
(02:09):
Oliver. It's like a it's like acomedian. He does, like,
comedian, like, kind of like theJohn Stewart show Mhmm. Of or,
like, the daily the dailywhatever.
Whatever those shows used to be.So a mixture of stand up comedy
and news reporting, expose typeof thing. Kind of like Adam
(02:29):
ruins everything back when thatwas, like, really common. So he
did 1 maybe a year ago, maybe 2years ago. If you, like, Google
it, you could find it.
He did 1 exposing churches andkind of made this kind of, like,
essentially this argument thatchurches had should lose their
tax exemption status because ofthe way they use money. So it's
(02:50):
something that's like people arehave been and continue to be and
will continue to be critical ofchurches and how they use their
money.
Cameron (03:00):
Yeah.
Luke (03:01):
So, do you want to tell us a little bit about the, the the
video I I sent
Cameron (03:10):
to you. There's a video where a guy who does a lot of
church marketing, advertising,social media, web stuff, digital
stuff, digital space, BradyShear.
Luke (03:22):
Who we both follow and
Cameron (03:24):
Yeah. I think
Luke (03:24):
pay attention to.
Cameron (03:25):
I think it's great Yeah. Great stuff. I I would I
would say that he is, like, inservice to the church. Mhmm. He
wants to make churches
Luke (03:35):
He does.
Cameron (03:35):
Online spaces Yeah. Better. Yeah. And everything
that is involved in that. Heruns an organization called Pro
Church Tools.
Luke (03:42):
Mhmm.
Cameron (03:43):
Super good, high quality stuff. Yeah. He, made a
video, highlighting some of theresults of the national study of
congregations economicpractices, nsep.org, that in the
(04:07):
in in his video, he highlightedthe, like, the growth the gross
as in whole, not in, like, icky.Yeah.
Luke (04:17):
Yeah. Yeah.
Cameron (04:17):
Right? Right. Gross percentages. The big picture.
The big picture percentages ofhow it was determined that
churches spend their money.
Luke (04:27):
Right. He didn't just for note, he didn't actually say
anything in the video about it.Right. He's just like, here's
the numbers from this website.And then he kinda just invited
his viewers to have a discussionabout it.
Cameron (04:39):
In the comments.
Luke (04:39):
In the comments. I looked on his feed. He hadn't posted
anything, any follow-up where hegives his take. I'm sure that
Right. And give it a week or 2,he probably will put out a blog
or a video and talk morein-depth about his personal
opinions about it.
Right.
Cameron (04:51):
And his
Luke (04:52):
hot take, but he didn't say anything about it. So he
just put the numbers there. Andthen the comments were just
people reacting to that. Yeah.
Cameron (05:00):
And some of them were positive, and some of them were
really negative as you canimagine. Yeah. And I think it's,
you know, probably a lot of itis just based on your
perspective, where you sit.
Luke (05:13):
Mhmm.
Cameron (05:14):
What window are you looking out of?
Luke (05:16):
Mhmm.
Cameron (05:17):
So what's the landscape you're gonna see? Yeah. And, so
the the percentages wereessentially I don't know the
sample size of churches, and Idon't know what their
requirements were. Whatever.These are just just what was
shared in the video.
Right. 49% of a church's budgethad norm in this study had gone
(05:40):
towards personnel.
Luke (05:41):
Mhmm.
Cameron (05:43):
23% towards facility. So that right there is a 72% of
a church's budget goes towardspersonnel and facilities. Yep.
Call it overhead if you want. Idon't know.
But then 11% on missions.
Luke (06:02):
Mhmm.
Cameron (06:03):
10% on programs, and then 7% on admin, which he said
was essentially a, like, acatchall category or like a
miscellaneous category.
Luke (06:16):
Right.
Cameron (06:16):
Where is it gonna where does the numbers fit when
there's no place else for thenumbers to fit?
Luke (06:20):
Right.
Cameron (06:24):
And, and so the reactions to the to those
percentages were were wide andvaried. And so I thought maybe
you'll why don't we just talk alittle bit about that today?
Luke (06:38):
Yeah. Like,
Cameron (06:41):
there had been, you know, I think that, earlier in
ministry for me, meaning yearsago, there was kind of the like,
there was a a generalizedunderstanding of if your church
(07:03):
intends to be financiallyhealthy
Luke (07:05):
Mhmm.
Cameron (07:06):
What would be appropriate percentages to be
represented in overhead expense?Yeah. And 1 of the most
significant, what you'll whatcould be called overhead
expenses in the church ispersonnel costs. Yes. That would
be salaries, taxes for thosesalaries.
(07:26):
Mhmm. You know, the church paysself employ you know, we're an
employer just like any otheremployer. We have employees.
Taxes, and, any insurancesassociated with insurance
associated with that workers'comp and Mhmm. On disability and
all that.
Any other fringe benefits toemployees, salaries or health
(07:49):
care or, retirement benefits,anything like that. Yeah. And
the general, like, understandingwas that the closer that you can
get that number to, like,between 42 45%
Luke (08:02):
Mhmm.
Cameron (08:03):
The better. Yeah. That is kinda, like, was kinda like
the standard rule of thumb. Yep.And so I'm not really surprised
to see this number at 49%.
No. At all.
Luke (08:12):
Me neither.
Cameron (08:14):
I think that the question is, what is the
question for me has always been,if you how what is your
perspective
Luke (08:28):
Mhmm.
Cameron (08:28):
On the role of personnel within the church?
Right. And because the and andand and perspective varies
really widely. I I've had peoplewhen they find out, for
instance, what I make when thechurch pays me as a salary, I've
(08:50):
had people be really offended inboth directions.
Luke (08:54):
Offended that it was too much and offended that it was so
little?
Cameron (08:57):
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I've I've had people say, you know,
like, oh, it must be nice to bea pastor. No.
K. That's a topic for anotherpodcast. And then I've had
people on the other side say,like, like, that seems low given
(09:18):
the responsibility that youhave. Yeah. The education you
have.
Right. The experience you have.So it like, opinions vary
Luke (09:27):
Yes.
Cameron (09:27):
On that. Mhmm. They vary. But my opinion is that is
that it is a little bit of a redherring to talk about personnel
costs outside of theconversation about talking about
(09:48):
missional or theologicalattachment to those costs. Yeah.
And what I mean by that is thatif you because then now you're
gonna look at these percentagesand say, well, church only
spends 11% on missions. Right.The the word missions is really
(10:13):
vast and lots of people havelike, what does even that mean?
Like, does this mean, like,money that it sends to
missionaries? Does this meanit's the whole of its outreach
budget, outreach locally,regionally
Luke (10:29):
Right.
Cameron (10:30):
Internationally? Does this include what does this
include for like, if if thechurch has a, like, an
evangelism any sort ofevangelistic ministry or
discipleship ministry oranything like that. Yep. Is that
included in missions or is thatincluded in programs? Or is it
(10:54):
included as I think it is inpersonnel?
Right. Because is
Luke (11:00):
is the assumption that your staff we're just paying our
staff to sit in a room and notDo ministry. Do ministry.
Cameron (11:08):
Right. So I always tell people that personnel expenses
are ministry expenses. Right.They they they that's money that
is expended towards mission.Counseling, evangelism,
(11:29):
discipleship, the teaching ofthe word, the leading of worship
Right.
The praying over the sick. Mhmm.That 49% that seems like such a
bloated number in the budgetactually represents the largest
percentage or capacity ofmissional or ministry expense
(11:53):
that a church has. Right. And soI think that numbers like this
are a little deceiving becauseit assumes a description of a
business model.
Luke (12:04):
Mhmm.
Cameron (12:06):
Where we're a let's say we're just a, you know, we're a
family run business and, oh,they it's a, you know, for
profit business, and it justpays its employees 49% of its
budget. Right. Virtually no 1would say, oh, yeah. It's too
much.
Luke (12:25):
No. That's I mean, it's a it depends on, like so I have a
a little bit of extraperspective. I've done Did some
reading recently on a bookcalled, Profit First, which is a
model of running your smallbusiness finances. And he
essentially like, it's it's alittle bit of, like, mental,
(12:50):
mental finagling, how you viewfinances inside of a small
business, but also, the bigportion of it is that it lands
with a, like, these aregenerally recommended healthy
percentages, to be used oncertain categories, operating
expenses, personnel expenses,and things like that, for
different sized businesses. Andthose percentages, what it like,
(13:14):
they don't really overlap toomuch except for the, what, the
facilities, the admin, and thepersonnel, like programs and
because there's no profit.
Right? So it's not a so there'snot a thing. But the personnel
expenses and then the costs ofoperating are all pretty doggone
(13:36):
close to what, like, isrecommended for even just a
small business to operate.
Cameron (13:41):
Mhmm.
Luke (13:42):
And but then here's the other thing too, is that if you
were to look at, it's a littlebit of a matter of scale. If you
were to look at, like, a smallchurch, right? Like maybe 100,
150 people, 1 person on staff,or maybe 1 and a half. Right? 1
(14:03):
person full time staff,presumably a senior pastor,
somebody who's like part timesecretary.
That's like a lot of That's asignificant amount of churches
throughout the United States fitthat model. I would wager that
their expense category onpersonnel is above 50% probably.
Cameron (14:22):
Probably. Yeah.
Luke (14:23):
And that's just because there's less money in the pot
overall. If there was moremoney, if the church was bigger
and had more money to deal, thepercentages would do. So there's
a little bit of a, a matter ofscale that comes into play with
each congregation and eachchurch.
Cameron (14:43):
Yeah. I think 1 of the I guess, I mean, maybe I'll just
pose this as a question. Yeah.Is the church a business? I
don't think so.
Yeah. I don't think so either.Why? Does the church utilize
(15:07):
some business practices? Yeah.
Yeah. And are those 2 thingsdifferent?
Luke (15:15):
Yes. Yeah. Right? Right. But because what makes a
nonprofit versus for profit?
Right? Like, what's thedifference there? Like, where a
profit business is alwaysconcerned about, like, the
bottom line. Right? And and howmuch money how much can we do,
(15:36):
how much product can we sell,and have the most amount of
money left over after wefinished selling our product,
whatever that is, whether that'sa service or whatever.
Cameron (15:45):
Mhmm.
Luke (15:46):
For us, if we have we wanna be financially
responsible, right? We don'twanna always be running like
right at the line so that likeif something catastrophic were
to happen, the church, like,falls under because it doesn't
have money to pay the bills. Butif we have so much left over and
we're like, yay. Like, we'reactually probably failing at
(16:07):
what we're supposed to be doingbecause money unspent is
ministry unspent. Unspent.
Yeah. And so, like, a churchthat is just squirreling away,
you know, what would classicallybe called profit and just sits
in a bank account that doesn'thave a plan, doesn't have a
purpose, is just kind of sittingthere for the accruement of it.
(16:31):
That's ministry that could bedone to people or done with
people, for people through thechurch. That's just
Cameron (16:37):
not being done. Right. And I will tell you that there's
nothing like, there are manynonprofits Mhmm. In the world
that make a profit. Yes.
It's not the the the termnonprofit is, like, just, like,
the the wording that the IRSuses to determine who has 501c3
(16:59):
status or not, which is reallyjust a particular tax
Classification. Taxclassification Right. Rather
than a permission or notpermission to actually be in the
black, be even, or be red Yeah.At the end of the year. Mhmm.
And, so I I think that there's alittle bit of AII think it's a
(17:22):
little bit of a it's misleadingto say that the church is not a
business because I think whatthe I think what the, assumption
there is is that because thechurch has at the center of its
purposefulness in in the mostbroad terms Mhmm. Religious
(17:46):
orientation or goals orphilosophy or mission or
whatever, then it thereforeshould operate not as a
business, but it should havesome kind of like higher
standard upon which it operates.But then it like, we feel it
really doesn't allow Mhmm. Thechurch to manage or organize
(18:10):
itself in a responsible way.
Luke (18:13):
Right.
Cameron (18:13):
Right? Like you I I would think that most people
would want churches to be wellrun. Yeah. Using appropriate
business practices that arecontextual for an organization
like ours.
Luke (18:31):
Right. Right? Like, for example, like, if because okay.
Let's say we're like, alright.We're we our our goal is to at
the end of each month or eachquarter or whatever, have 0
money in the balance.
Right? We're we're we're we'respending it all, and then, and
(18:53):
it's all being used, it's allbeing sent out, whatever. Like,
we're essentially setting thechurch to live paycheck to
paycheck Yeah. And and to put itin personal finance terms.
Cameron (19:08):
Right.
Luke (19:09):
But then let's say the economy drops and then the
church and people stop giving asmuch or whatever. Right?
Something happens that affectsthe income of the church or the
roof falls in, something happensthat there's this big expense
that the church suddenly has to.And church is like, well, we
don't have anything to helpbuffer that. We have to close
our doors.
(19:29):
Mhmm. And all of a sudden, thecongregation's like, well, why
did our church close down? Well,we had this philosophy that,
like, we felt like it was sinfulor wrong to have any money left
over as, like, a buffer forexpenses and operating. And so
we never had any saved.
Cameron (19:46):
Right. We didn't wanna act we we didn't wanna be a
business. We didn't wanna actlike a business.
Luke (19:49):
We didn't wanna act like a business. Yeah. Well, that's
that's pretty irresponsible,particularly, like, if the
congregation wants the church tocontinue to be around Right.
Even if, you know, there's ayear or 2 of hard finances. So,
you know, and then there'sobviously there's a line at
which like, okay, at what pointare we saving to be responsible
and saving just for like anemotional reason or for
Cameron (20:14):
Like security.
Luke (20:15):
Security reason.
Cameron (20:16):
Right. Yeah.
Luke (20:16):
Or for, like, a reason that's that is no longer in line
with, you know, with what wefeel like we ought to be doing
with that money. But the Right.You know, you want the church to
continue to be here, the churchhas to operate in a way that
allows it to be more stable.
Cameron (20:37):
Yeah. Yeah. Most people would say that, yeah, we'd like
to go to a church that has aroof on it.
Luke (20:44):
Right.
Cameron (20:44):
And that is climate controlled in some ways, has a
heater in the winter or AC inthe summer, or that has power
and the lights are on. It's notjust dark or
Luke (20:54):
Has a bathroom inside.
Cameron (20:55):
Has a bathroom. Right? Like, all those are those are
facility costs, and they're thecost of operating and and being
able to offer ministry topeople. Yep. And so it like this
building that we're in now, is anice building.
Luke (21:20):
Mhmm.
Cameron (21:21):
It's it's big. It fits it's maybe a little bit small
for our size. Like we couldstand to have a little bit more
space.
Luke (21:28):
Yeah.
Cameron (21:30):
And, but, like, as a as a responsible financial
practice, like, we we madeefforts to pay this building off
and so it's like debt free. Andwe we try we have tried over the
years to do infrastructureupdates to it to make sure that
(21:55):
we're protecting our investment,new roofs, new heating system,
cooling system, graduallyreplacing windows, parking lot,
you know, things like that sothat we can we can use the
facility in a way that allows usopportunity to be in ministry
(22:18):
Mhmm. To people here in our, youknow, in our region. So even the
23% on facilities, I'm like,well, why do you need that?
Well, we don't need it.
Luke (22:32):
Yeah. I mean, we could do church in the dark.
Cameron (22:34):
Yeah. We can do church in a 10 out front like we
Luke (22:37):
Like we just did.
Cameron (22:38):
Like we just did. We can do church a lot of different
ways, but just because we haveit doesn't necessarily mean that
we're somehow, like, notfulfilling our role or purpose
of the church because we do haveexpenses that are similar to or
(22:59):
exactly like a business.
Luke (23:02):
Mhmm.
Cameron (23:03):
We're not a business primarily. No. We're not. We're
we're the community of believersin Jesus Christ here, but we
utilize business practices
Luke (23:16):
Mhmm.
Cameron (23:16):
In order to ensure that we're living with integrity as
to the resources that have beenentrusted to us. Yeah. So we
manage our money and we havebudgets and we save when we can.
We spend a lot of money. A lotof money in ministry and mission
of which is included personnelwho work directly with people
Luke (23:40):
Right.
Cameron (23:41):
For the purposes of their salvation. Yeah. So I will
be interested to see what thatdocumentary is like. Yeah. In
some of the small clips thatI've seen on it, I I do notice
(24:02):
that a lot of their criticismnot of their criticism.
Of their reporting is donetowards the Mormon church.
Luke (24:11):
Oh, really?
Cameron (24:12):
Yes. Yeah. Which is like I don't know. It's some
crazy stuff. Yes.
They're like the 4th largestlandowner in the United States.
Yep.
Luke (24:23):
Yeah. I remember that.
Cameron (24:24):
Yeah. And
Luke (24:25):
they they buy up a lot of land and Yes. And they just
kinda hold on to
Cameron (24:29):
it. Right. And so they're at the the value of
their assets is in the 1, 000,000, 000 of 1, 000, 000, 000 of
dollars. Mhmm. But they enjoy
Luke (24:42):
Tax exempt status. So they own all that property, but don't
pay any taxes on. Right. Yeah.It's there's this there's there
in this conversation is a reallytricky thing is because in some
people's minds, like, when, likeI don't know.
If if we were if we were to justwalk up, we were dropped out of
(25:03):
content. We were not inJamestown. We were just in some
random city, walked up to ransome random person. And we just
kinda, like, went up to a lineof people and we said, we are
pastors. Draw a picture of whatyou think that means, what we
look like, what, like, ourlifestyle looks like.
You'll get 2 very differentpictures. 1 would be maybe
(25:25):
informed by, like, childhoodexperience or experience in a
local church of, like, that's ofsmall to medium moderate in
size. Like, something like us,maybe a little bit smaller,
maybe a little bit bigger, butthey would kind of draw kind of
some sort of picture. That kindof typified by, when my wife
(25:46):
started telling people that shewas engaged in getting married
to a pastor, she got a lot ofcomments of, like, like, you're
never gonna make any money.You're never gonna be able to go
on vacations, say goodbye to,like, nice things.
You know, like, a lot of peoplemade a lot of assumptions that,
you know, me and my wife weregonna be, like, 2 steps from,
(26:06):
like, being in poverty, being ina cardboard box or something
like that. And, that's not true,but that is kind of the extreme
of the 1 end is that this, youknow, pastors as kind of just
average normal people or evenpeople who are sometimes making
less than the average person.And then the other end of the
spectrum would be people's like,typified by like, oh, well that
(26:27):
means you're gonna have likereally expensive clothes, and
you're gonna have a house that'slike a mansion, all paid for by
the church, and, like, you'regonna, like, be this kind of,
like, minor celebrity and, like,this huge kind of megachurch
image that gets painted.
Cameron (26:44):
Mhmm.
Luke (26:45):
And the thing is, is that the mega church pastor is the
minority of pastors Mhmm. Butgets the majority of the
tension. But what they'resaying, what they have in their
mind is they're talking about isthey're picturing 1 or 2 or 4,
(27:10):
celebrity pictures, pastors whocome into their mind, right, Who
just live these extravagantlifestyles. And what they're
ignoring is they're ignoring theother 99% of pastors who make a
living salary that's probablyaround the medium of whatever
the community that they live in.Mhmm.
(27:31):
And that's where thisconversation gets kind of
polarized, I think. Mhmm. Iswanting to kind of legislate and
control or dominate, like, theperceived lifestyle of the
minority without anyconsideration of the majority.
Cameron (27:47):
Mhmm. I yeah. I I'm not really, like, a single thing to
that. I agree
Luke (27:52):
Yeah. Completely. Yeah. Yeah. I think 1 of the things
that I like as people were kindof reacting really strongly to
the, like, oh, I can't believethe church spends so little on
missions.
Right? That was 1 of the thatwas 1 of the sentiments that was
expressed in the comments ofthat video. And you kind of were
(28:15):
hinting at it at the beginningkind of with your like, well, is
not missions what the churchdoes, period?
Cameron (28:22):
Right.
Luke (28:23):
Mhmm. And I do think that we that there's a little bit of
a presupposition that is beingbought into suddenly. And we've
kind of just been talking aboutit without naming it, but it's
this presupposition that thechurch the church having money
(28:43):
is a bad thing. Right. That'skind of this and I think that's
maybe brought on by, like,exposes and, like, you know,
documentaries and stuff that arehighlighting the excesses and
the abuses of some of this incertain pastors or certain
ministries.
But it's coming to this justlike, oh, well, the church
(29:05):
having money is a bad thing. Thechurch it was interesting some
of the, some of the commentswere just like, wow. Our
churches really should betithing better.
Cameron (29:24):
Tithing to where?
Luke (29:25):
Tied tie exactly. That that there's this assumption
that the church like, the churchhaving money to spend on
ministry, on its goals ofadvancing the gospel of
preaching and discipling andbaptizing people and teaching
them to obey all things in thename of the lord Jesus Christ
Mhmm. Is not a thing. Like,that's not enough. The church
(29:48):
needs to also be giving away itsmoney elsewhere.
I'm not saying that churchescan't do that Right.
Cameron (29:57):
Or
Luke (29:57):
shouldn't do it. Mhmm. But the assumption that the church
should also be, it's kind ofthis, like, assumption that the
church is not enough is not theend goal of the kingdom of God
to begin with, and that it hasto be going somewhere else.
Cameron (30:12):
Right. Right. Yeah. I can see that. Yeah.
Yeah. I I'm thinking of, like,passages in Acts, the book of
Acts, where it's really clearthat even, like, from time to
time, people sold a plot of landand they brought the money and
they placed it at the feet ofthe apostles. Right. Right? Like
(30:35):
that it was pretty wellestablished principle that even
from the beginning of the churchthat they were a receiver Right.
Of they they were they were areceiver of funds ostensibly so
that they could be a user offunds. Right. Right. So that but
(30:59):
it's not as if, like, this wetalk about, like, oh, the church
has so much money. Mhmm.
It's not as if, like, the churchjust goes out there and does
shady business deals and takesit from people. No. Right? At at
(31:19):
its core, the church has moneybecause the people who are the
church Mhmm. Have determinedthat the pooling of their
resources for the mission ofthat specified church Mhmm.
Is important to them. So theycreate a kitty Yeah.
(31:39):
Essentially. And then they agreeupon how that money is going to
be spent Yes. In most cases.
Right? And in really all casesin some way, shape, or form. And
so then they go about spendingthat money, which is their
money.
Luke (31:58):
Their money.
Cameron (31:58):
Their money in the way that they've decided is
important. Right. To them. Yes.Okay.
I guess the question that mostpeople who have a difficulty
with this is like, well, doesn'tthe church guilt people into
(32:19):
giving them money? And I wouldsay in all honestly, some
churches do. Mhmm. Some pastorsdo.
Luke (32:33):
Mhmm.
Cameron (32:34):
You know, they leverage, they try to leverage
the scriptures to include, youknow, like a theological belief
that that blessing
Luke (32:55):
Yeah.
Cameron (32:56):
Personal blessing and favor follows those who give
extravagantly to the Lord,extravagantly to the church.
Luke (33:07):
Mhmm.
Cameron (33:08):
Does that happen? Yeah. Of of course.
Luke (33:11):
But it's not a it's not a vending machine.
Cameron (33:13):
It's not. No. And it's also not a universal principle.
Like you said, it's kind of thesame thing as the conversation
around, it's kind of the samething as the conversation around
celebrity pastor Mhmm. Salaries.
So you can't take the smallsample size and apply it to the
whole and expect it to be true.Mhmm. Additionally, there are, I
(33:39):
learned this in seminary,actually. Yep. I went to
seminary in Dayton, Ohio, whichhas a much higher, which is a
much more diverse area than Ilive and grew up in in Western
New York.
You know? There's a, greater,greater percentage of Americans
(33:59):
that live there.
Luke (34:00):
Mhmm.
Cameron (34:02):
And, they really wouldn't consider themselves
like, there's no no place inOhio is considered, like, down
south. But,
Luke (34:10):
I mean, we get a little Appalachian.
Cameron (34:13):
Yeah. But but some of the cultural values
Luke (34:20):
Yeah.
Cameron (34:20):
In the African American church
Luke (34:22):
Yes.
Cameron (34:22):
Are a lot different than cultural values in white
churches. And 1 of theircultural values is that their
pastors are extraordinarily wellpaid and are they desire pastors
to live what may look like. It'susually not, but what may look
like extravagant lifestyles.Yeah. Very well dressed.
Luke (34:46):
A decent car.
Cameron (34:47):
Very nice cars. Yeah. Right. Expensive jewelry for
pastor and first lady of thechurch.
Luke (34:56):
Yep.
Cameron (34:57):
Right. Not because it's out of like not not because it's
out of like greed at all, butbecause they have a cultural
value, which I understand andappreciate. They have a cultural
value of of seeing the pastor behonored
Luke (35:19):
Right.
Cameron (35:20):
By its congregation, be honored extravagantly in their,
salary or payment or whatever tothat pastor That they are in
keeping with, like, the, thescripture. They are worth they
are worthy of double honor.
Luke (35:39):
Right.
Cameron (35:39):
They have plowed the grain. Mhmm. So we shouldn't
muzzle that ox. He should eatfrom the grain that he plows
from. Right.
And and that really in theAfrican American church is not a
questioned value at all. No.That's a well accepted value.
Luke (35:57):
Yeah. Right? And I can even think of the opposite
because I have friends who arein the Asian American church,
and it is the opposite.
Cameron (36:07):
It's a vow of poverty.
Luke (36:08):
It's a vow of poverty. Sure. They're it they they
become concerned if theirpastors make too much. Like,
they would much rather theirpastors live at or below where
the rest of the congregationmakes.
Cameron (36:23):
Yeah.
Luke (36:24):
And it's not I don't think it's quite as explicit. It kind
of just kinda happens that way,at least in at least in the
handful of Asian Americancongregations. I've interacted
with with this, which isactually more than more than 3.
So I like but it was it true isit was true at each 1. And so it
(36:45):
yeah.
There's a spectrum there. Mhmm.But sorry. I didn't mean to
finish.
Cameron (36:49):
No. III think that that you know, like and I don't I
think a lot of white churchesmaybe kinda fall. I I you you
see it. I mean, like, there'sthing there's churches of all
cultural backgrounds. Yes.
All sides of those spectrums, ofcourse. But, and a lot of it is
(37:10):
relative as well. Yeah. Youknow? A pastor living near the
poverty line in SouthernCalifornia who's Asian.
Right. High Asian population inSouthern California or in the
Bay Area, even San Franciscoarea, whatever. They probably
make a lot more than I do.Right. I don't live near the
poverty line here.
No. But I'm also not, like,considered wealthy. Right. Even
(37:34):
close. Yeah.
Right. So it's like theperspective geographical areas.
Yep. Life situations are allthey can all kind of Yeah. They
all matter Mhmm.
Luke (37:45):
In that conversation. What do you say to the person who
says, well, pastor should eitherbe by vocational or they should
just have another job so thatthe church does not pay for
them, pay them. What do you sayto someone who kinda says that?
Like, you should be by byvocational so that the church
(38:08):
doesn't have to pay you.
Cameron (38:11):
I would say that is a that's a fair ask
Luke (38:16):
Mhmm.
Cameron (38:18):
As long as the person understands the consequences of
a pastor who's not solelyfocused on ministry in that
church. Mhmm. Like, if you'regonna say to your pastor, you
need to get another job or youshould have another job so the
church doesn't pay you, Youcan't also say to your pastor,
we expect you to be at everymeeting, to visit everyone in
(38:42):
the hospital, to be at thebedside of every sick person or
dead person. On call? Yeah.
Do every funeral, every wedding,be on call, show up, you know,
do the Sunday morning stuff, dothe Wednesday evening stuff, run
the youth group, like, all ofthat. Like, you you have to
understand that they have abiblical requirement also to
(39:04):
provide for their family. Right.And they're just their very own
needs by the work of theirhands.
Luke (39:09):
Yeah.
Cameron (39:10):
You know? And so if you're gonna say like, yeah, you
need to go make your livingsomewhere else. What you're
saying is come do this for free.Mhmm. Which is not a biblical
principle.
Mhmm. It's not a principle that,even Jesus himself said, you
know, that, we see this inJesus. We see it in Paul Yep.
(39:34):
That, you know, do not muzzlethe ox as it's treading the
grain Mhmm. Which is to say, asthe ox runs around treading the
grain of the ancient, of ancientin the ancient near east.
Luke (39:47):
Just pulling a grindstone around and around the circle.
Cameron (39:49):
Right.
Luke (39:50):
Don't sweep up the grain so that the mocks can't stop
every once in a while and eat alittle bit.
Cameron (39:54):
Right. Because they're doing the work. Mhmm. They're
they're they're in the middle ofthe labor. They deserve part of
the fruit of that labor.
Luke (40:06):
Yeah.
Cameron (40:07):
So, I would say that, it's a shortsighted opinion
Mhmm. To say to your pastor, youneed to go get another job so
that you can, so that we don'thave to pay you. But that's also
a different thing from sayingit's a it's a different thing
(40:27):
than maybe a pastor who choosesto do that.
Luke (40:29):
I have I know some pastors who don't even like by
vocational ministry. They liketo call it co vocational because
they see it as part of amission.
Cameron (40:37):
Sure.
Luke (40:37):
They're like, I wanna have 2 vocations, so that I stay
connected in the world or theysee it as a gift to the church,
you know, and that's great.Like, I'm I'm not I'm not trying
I wasn't asking the question todis on, like, that model of
church cause I think it worksand is the right model for many
(40:59):
churches. And many pastors youfeel called to it. But you're
right.
Cameron (41:04):
III kinda diss on that model of church.
Luke (41:06):
I mean, I'm not in it. I'm not in that model.
Cameron (41:09):
Well, I would say, like, I would say that the only
appropriate the only time thatthat's appropriate is if the
pastor chooses that forthemselves, not ever if the
church chooses that for thepastor. Yeah. But that's my
opinion Yeah. My opinion on it.Yeah.
Luke (41:25):
Well, I mean, it's just like, it's because there are
churches that have, like, thatpay nobody anything. Mhmm. You
know?
Cameron (41:35):
Are there certain denominations that do that? Is
there Yeah. Are there is there adenomination that is like all of
their pastors are lay? Yes.
Luke (41:44):
The Plymouth Brethren. Okay. I think Why do I
Cameron (41:51):
know someone or we just had a conversation with someone
who is like in a denominationwhere that was the case?
Luke (41:55):
Ox, my wife, the churches she grew up in, which were
Slavic American churches, theytypically not like across the
board always, but they typicallyhave no staff pastor. They have
a single pastor and then theyhave elders and deacons, but
they don't pay any like singularperson. And so then they'll have
(42:16):
multiple people preach on aSunday. There's, I think,
Quakers.
Cameron (42:25):
I
Luke (42:25):
don't even know if Quakers are still around. I think they
probably are, just not in largeamounts. Hipper church church,
like, house church models.
Cameron (42:39):
Okay. Yeah. I
Luke (42:39):
don't know if those are still thriving, but that kind of
model was similar to, you know,they generally had kind of
convictions around that as well.Right. Kind of destructure the
church.
Cameron (42:54):
Mhmm. So I feel like I was actually having a
conversation with someone whoascribed to that model or Right.
It'll come to me.
Luke (43:03):
It's, I mean, it's it's it's different. It's it's going
to come, like you said, withdifferent expectations. Like,
the church as a whole is gonnahave to carry more of the
burden.
Cameron (43:13):
Mhmm.
Luke (43:13):
Like, as a whole, you know, you the expectations
around what your pastors willand will be will not be able to
do. Mhmm. Simply because of, youknow, the fact that they have
full time jobs Sure. In order topay for themselves. It's gonna
make a it's gonna make an impacton the way it kinda functions.
(43:34):
So
Cameron (43:35):
Yeah. Yeah. So I I the whole conversation is, you know,
it can be pretty extensive, prebe pretty I was doing, like, for
this morning, I was doing I wasI was doing budgeting here
Luke (43:48):
Mhmm. For
Cameron (43:49):
us. Like, I was looking at our budget, looking at
Luke (43:52):
Seeing how we're doing so far?
Cameron (43:53):
Yep.
Luke (43:53):
Yeah.
Cameron (43:53):
Just seeing what the numbers are because, you know,
we're literally halfway throughthe year.
Luke (43:59):
I know. It was like August we're supposed to start
Cameron (44:01):
budgeting for the Yeah.
Luke (44:03):
The next year. So yeah. Which goes which by the way, our
budget goes before theleadership team Mhmm. Which is
made out of people who are partof the congregation Mhmm. Who's
in a proved budget.
Cameron (44:15):
Correct. Right?
Luke (44:16):
It's not Yeah. You and I just writing blank checks.
Cameron (44:18):
Right. Approve the spending, approve personnel
costs, approve all of that.Yeah. So, so, yeah, like, it was
part of my work today as pastorand just preparing for a meeting
later this week that I'll haveto present some of that
information to the congregation.Yeah.
And, but, Yeah. I think quest orconversations like this are
(44:40):
important because often it'sthings are kind of shrouded in a
veil of mystery and questionsYeah. And, like, information
that's just not that's it's notjust it's just not nuanced, I
think, enough. Yeah. And so bigbold statements can be made but
that are not necessarily true.
(45:00):
Like, oh my gosh, they just thischurch just pays 50% of all its
money to people. Doesn't even doministry with it. I think that
that's a it's just a weird it'sit's a statement that's really
misleading.
Luke (45:13):
Right.
Cameron (45:14):
Yeah.
Luke (45:14):
Because it's I don't know. It's a it like, it when you say
it that way, like, oh my gosh.We're just giving money to the
staff?
Cameron (45:23):
Mhmm.
Luke (45:23):
Well, no. You're paying the staff to do things
Cameron (45:26):
Right.
Luke (45:26):
To, like, perform duties as assigned
Cameron (45:30):
To carry out ministry.
Luke (45:32):
Which yeah. Which those include, you know, praying for
people, preaching the word,running your con your kids'
ministry, like, any number ofthings that are ministry
oriented.
Cameron (45:45):
Mhmm.
Luke (45:46):
And, like, it's not like you're literally just like the
we don't just walk in here andsay, all right, I'm here to pick
up my check, And then we justwalk back out.
Cameron (45:55):
Right.
Luke (45:55):
And then we do not do anything.
Cameron (45:56):
Yeah. Just work for 4 hours on Sunday and that's it.
Luke (45:59):
That's it. That's all we really do. We just watch YouTube
the rest of the week. Right. Wedon't do anything else.
Cameron (46:06):
Well, if you I mean, if you guys have any our listeners
out there, viewers have anyother questions about stuff like
this or clarifications maybe,always shoot them our way either
on our text line, 716-201-0507.Can't believe I remember that
after a month off. Or drop themin the comments here. As always,
if you would share this episodeor the podcast with other
(46:28):
people, you can like it andwhatever platform that you're
listening to it or rate it.Subscribe, comment, do all the
things.
That'd be a great help, and,we'll, catch you next week.
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