November 18, 2024 • 40 mins
The movies make it look easy and the Church doesn't talk about it. Sex is one of the most intimate and complicated pieces of a marriage relationship. Pastor Cameron and Luke dive into the topic of sex within marriage and try to offer advice and insight from a biblical and practical perspective.
- (00:07) - Naked Emotions
- (02:09) - Baggage and Its Impact
- (03:47) - The Role of Our Stories
- (07:51) - Emotional Components of Sex
- (08:39) - Gender Dynamics in Intimacy
- (11:45) - Understanding Emotional Needs
- (13:49) - Women's Sexual Experience
- (15:42) - Developing Healthy Sex Life
- (20:46) - Intimacy as a Thermometer
- (24:31) - Consistency in Emotional Intimacy
- (25:57) - Scheduling for Connection
- (31:41) - Breaking the Intimacy Cycle
- (34:03) - Mutual Understanding of Intimacy
- (38:07) - Intentionality in Relationships
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Luke (00:00):
If you can't be naked emotionally, what makes you
think you can be nakedphysically and ultimately naked
emotionally at the same time?
Cameron (00:07):
Yeah. Well, that's actually what happens is that we
think we can be naked physicallywithout being naked emotionally.
So we get naked physically, butwe never get naked emotionally.
And so we never actuallyexperience intimacy. Right.
To increase quality of sex Mhmm.You must increase emotional
(00:30):
intimacy.
Luke (00:32):
Welcome to The Uncut Podcast. I'm pastor Luke.
Cameron (00:36):
I'm pastor Cameron. And this is The
Luke (00:38):
Uncut Podcast where we have honest uncut conversations
about faith, life, and ministry.So we've kind of talked about,
we kind of really dug in andhave talked about, like, sex,
it's, like, meaning, it'sbiblical foundation, where it
(01:00):
comes from. Like, we even gave akind of a broad biblical defense
for how, for sex inside ofmarriage and not outside of it.
But we haven't gotten much intokind of, like, untangling sex
(01:21):
and its complications and therole of emotions and past
experiences and how that allplays out inside of marriage and
then what healthy sex looks likeinside of it. So that's kind of
where I think we are gonna go inthis next little segment or
episode here.
So where do you kinda wanna leadus into that? Do you have a
(01:41):
sense?
Cameron (01:44):
Well, I we touched on it a little bit at on the last
episode about in particular theway, the way in which past
sexual experiences may beaffecting current
Luke (02:04):
Mhmm. Yeah.
Cameron (02:05):
Sexual life.
Luke (02:06):
Right.
Cameron (02:10):
So some of that we I I feel like we I don't know. You
can you can nuance things todeath, and you can't possibly
hit every scenario or situationor anything like that. But, you
know, it is we it would be it'sit's difficult to to talk about
(02:35):
sex and not talk about the waysin which it has we we bring
baggage from baggage is I don'tlike that word. But Well, yeah.
It's baggage.
You know, we bring baggage fromour sexual experiences into our
marriages. Yep. Yep. Not onlyjust baggage that is of our own
(02:57):
doing. Right.
But things that have been doneto us. Yep. Things that have
been said to us. Mhmm.Experiences that we have had
that we've either not beenwillful participants in or we've
been semi willful participantsin.
Yep. And how all of that mayaffect Mhmm. A healthy Yes. Sex
(03:26):
life in your marriage.
Luke (03:28):
And here's here's even a a big thing is that your so, like,
maybe another way of saying itwith less judgmental words,
like, not saying, like, youryour baggage impacts your sex
life and marriage, but sayingyour story impacts your sex
life.
Cameron (03:47):
K. Say a little bit more about that.
Luke (03:49):
So, like, one of the things so, like, I've done a lot
of work reading, study, withdealing with sexual addiction,
things like that. So, like,there's a book called, oh, no.
I'm gonna send Unwanted, dealingwith unwanted sexual behavior by
Cameron (04:10):
Jay Springer. Yeah.
Luke (04:11):
So I went through his, like, training course, to kinda
become, like, a certified,unwanted coach so I can talk
with people through The unwantedcoach. Yes. I know. Yeah. Yeah.
Cameron (04:27):
The title of the book is unwanted.
Luke (04:29):
I it's
Cameron (04:29):
not He's not an unwanted coach.
Luke (04:31):
Right. Right. That's not what I'm saying. But one of the
things that's really I think oneof the reasons his book, his
study, his research, and hismethodology and everything
stands out is is he's trying to,and he has a tool that he's
developed through the researchthat they've been doing where
(04:54):
they have people who are dealingwith unwanted sexual behavior.
They list out, not necessarily,they do they do inventory
people, like, what kind ofpornography are they looking at?
What kind of sexual behavior arethey struggling with? Those kind
of things. They ask thosequestions. But then they also
ask a very large litany ofquestions that have to do with
(05:17):
their family of origin. Notnecessarily including set first
sexual experiences, but alsoincluding just family dynamics,
including how they related totheir father, to their mother.
Was their mother or was theirfather absent? Was their mother
or father overbearing? Thingslike that. And then they at the
(05:37):
end, they give out people who gothrough this inventory. They
give people out a sheet.
And they say, hey. You indicatedthis kind of family dynamic or
this kind of experience growingup. We think due to just, like,
the study we've done and thethings we've looked at, that it
is likely you struggle with thistype of sexual sin or this type
(05:59):
of sexual desire because we theyfind it rooted in their story.
Mhmm. And so so things that areconnected so our past sexual
experiences absolutely do cometo play in our current sexual
lives.
But so do our pastrelationships, abandonment,
(06:23):
healthy and sure secureattachments, anxious
attachments. The things that welike, the sexual preferences or
desires that we have in our sexlife can often be traced to
(06:43):
unmet or emotional unmetemotional needs Mhmm. Previously
in our stories.
Cameron (06:49):
Mhmm.
Luke (06:49):
So when I say that, I when I say that, like, what's
happening in our sexual lifeisn't necessarily, like, because
of our baggage. I'm saying it'sbecause of our story. That means
that in companies companiesencompasses everything. Right?
Cameron (07:05):
Everything from Not just those classically negative
things Exactly.
Luke (07:10):
Which is how baggage is usually. Right. But it can. And
it does include. Right.
You know? So, like, if we wereacting out our sexuality in a
sinful or unhelpful way at onepoint in our life, that's
included too. But so iseverything else. So there's this
whole, that's the thing when itcomes to the part about sex that
(07:35):
I don't think that I knowdoesn't get talked about enough
is you can find 10 gazillionpodcasts out there, books,
videos about, like, themechanics of sex. Right?
Or the, like, tips and tricks ofsex. But it's not very often
that people discuss theemotional and social components
(07:59):
of sex. There's a wholeunderlying component that is
just not talked about. It's kindof talked about when it comes to
females, to women. Right?
That's kind of generallyacknowledged in our media and
those stories we tell about, oh,well, women get really attached.
(08:20):
So, like, if we're watching somesort of, like, stereotypical
movie or sitcom and, oh, there'sthis couple, and they're trying
to have friends with benefitbenefits. The way that stories
typically plays out is what?
Cameron (08:31):
The woman catches feelings.
Luke (08:32):
The woman catches feelings.
Cameron (08:34):
Yeah. The
Luke (08:34):
man doesn't. He leaves her. She's hurt. And then she
falls in love with the personshe was supposed to be in love
with the whole time anyways.Right?
That's the story that gets toldover and over and over again.
But the unfortunate part aboutthat is is that, okay, we
acknowledge the emotional socialcomponent for women, but then we
never talk about it for men. Andthat goes and so then what you
(08:56):
end up having is you end uphaving women who think that men
don't have an emotionalcomponent when it comes to sex,
and men who also don't thinkthey have emotional component to
it. And then that's neveraddressed inside of the sexual
relationship. And it's justwell, for men, it's just this
physical thing.
Cameron (09:14):
Mhmm.
Luke (09:15):
And the men perpetuate it because they never develop a
curiosity to understand what'sundergirding their physical
desire. So Yeah.
Cameron (09:24):
As and I yeah. I would agree with that. And I I guess
it wouldn't be my I don't wannamake my experience normative.
But what my my experience hasbeen is, like, as life has gone
on and I've been married longerand longer and longer and
(09:45):
longer, the physical componentof sex becomes less important.
And the emotional component ofsex becomes more important.
Yeah. And I don't know if it's afunction of my, like, just
biological age as a man, or ifit's a function of intimacy
(10:07):
that's developed progressivelyover time
Luke (10:11):
Yeah.
Cameron (10:11):
With one person. Probably a little bit of a
mixture of both.
Luke (10:15):
Maybe.
Cameron (10:16):
But, certainly, I think that the, like, yeah, the
emotional component of sex formen, it gets it gets hidden or,
or yeah. I guess it gets hiddenor or covered up early in
(10:40):
someone's life. Mhmm. But it'smanifesting itself over here.
So, like, in in the midst ofrelationship, the emotional
component of sex can sometimesbe, hidden.
Yes. But if it is hidden for toolong in the midst of
(11:03):
relationship, then it takes formin another environment.
Luke (11:09):
Mhmm.
Cameron (11:09):
And for most men, maybe it's unfair. For a lot of men,
that usually is in its, like, init's pursuit of what we want
emotionally
Luke (11:25):
Mhmm.
Cameron (11:25):
Outside of relationship. Yeah. So in
pornographic material Right. Orfantasy
Luke (11:32):
Right.
Cameron (11:32):
Or whatever because we feel unsafe emotionally in the
actual relationship that we'rein. Right. And so the part of
sex that is for us emotionalmust be pursued over here Right.
Where there's not
Luke (11:49):
there's There's there's no risk of vulnerability.
Cameron (11:52):
No risk of getting hurt.
Luke (11:53):
Right. Right. And it's it's a combination, I think, of,
1, men don't know how to theythey I think men are often
unaware. They're unaware of whatthey're actually looking for.
Mhmm.
There's a book that talks about,sexual addiction and things like
(12:14):
that, and the title of it isvery great. And the beginning
concept is is well stated. It'scalled false intimacy. Mhmm.
Right?
And what we're looking for isintimacy in some way. Right?
We're back to that biblicalconcept we talked about in the
past episode of being known insome way. Being wanted, being
(12:35):
desired, being known, be beingfully accepted as who we are.
And but a lot of men don't knowthat's what they're looking for.
They say, oh, well, I'm just, Ijust have a sexual desire, and I
just want this. Or I'm addictedto this, or I'm addicted to this
type of relationship, or thissexual act, or whatever. And
(12:58):
they're unaware of theundercurrent that's underneath
of it. So I think there's a one,there's an unawareness because
there's lack of curiosity, orthere's a level of awareness
they have, but there's anunwilling to risk getting that
need met in a emotionallyvulnerable way. And it feels
(13:20):
more comfortable to just say, Iwant this physical thing
Cameron (13:23):
Mhmm.
Luke (13:24):
Rather than saying, I actually need this emotional
thing.
Cameron (13:26):
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Luke (13:28):
Is that what you were
Cameron (13:29):
Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah.
That all, you know, I don't Ican't speak really
authoritatively on how that sametype of dynamic may manifest
itself in a woman's experienceof sex. Yeah. I don't think it's
(13:49):
dissimilar. No. They just searchfor the emotional connection in
a different way.
Yes. I I agree. Throughdifferent means.
Luke (13:56):
Through different means. And, like, in probably the I
mean, like I said, like, wecould die in nuance. So there's
absolutely like, those samedynamics can and do happen in
women. So women can Mhmm.Experience sexual brokenness,
unwanted sexual behavior, oraddiction.
(14:16):
And those same underlyingcurrents remain true there. The
other aspect or at least I Ithink this is kind of trending
in a positive direction. I thinkthis is less true than it maybe
was in past generations. But,the deprioritization of the
physical aspect of it for women,we've emphasized, oh, it's like
(14:40):
an emotional thing. But notrecognizing or understanding
anatomy, how sex functions for awoman, or that they can have and
experience sexual desire at thesame pace or outpace men and
things like that.
That, like, the stereotype,right, of the man always wants
(15:01):
more sex than the woman. Right?That's kind of the at least
that's the stereotype that endsup in.
Cameron (15:07):
It's the typical stereotype.
Luke (15:08):
Stereotype stereotype. That's not necessarily always
true. Mhmm. Right? And so butthat's a narrative that doesn't
get talked about.
Right? And so that's the othercomponent of sex that I think
for women, at leasthistorically, has been ignored.
But neither of
Cameron (15:26):
us are Yeah.
Luke (15:27):
Women and so we should Right.
Cameron (15:28):
But it's a cultural dynamic that we have just
perpetuated over time that menalways want more sex. Women
always want less sex. And soit's not safe Right. For a a man
to say, I want less sex.
Luke (15:44):
Right.
Cameron (15:44):
It's not safe for a woman to say Right. I want more.
Luke (15:48):
But it does happen.
Cameron (15:49):
But it does happen.
Luke (15:50):
I Yeah. I know a couple where that's the dynamic.
Cameron (15:52):
Yeah. Right. That's the it's just how it happens. Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay. So let's maybe talk alittle bit more than about
developing a healthy sex life inmarriage. You know, we've talked
a lot about, the overflow ofsex, outside of covenant. We've
(16:17):
talked about trauma and baggageand story and all the negative
Yep. Aspects of it, but wehaven't talked a whole lot about
the real positive aspects of sexwithin marriage, which is really
what I would love.
You know, that's that's thethat's the goal. Yeah. That's
the target. Yeah. All otherthings being all of the things
(16:41):
considered the same.
Mhmm. Right? We wanna talk aboutwhat how do we build into, have,
develop healthy sex life inmarriage. Yeah. And what are
some of the you know, I don'tmean to make it super, like,
here are the components, dothese things, and it will be
(17:01):
easy.
Right.
Luke (17:02):
Because we can't just shift from being, oh, we're
about, like we're not justmagically shifting to a tools
conversation here.
Cameron (17:09):
No. Mm-mm. Right. No. It's not.
You know, there's not so muchyeah. I don't even know that I I
mean, maybe there are, like,tools per se that could help.
Luke (17:21):
Like best practices.
Cameron (17:22):
Best practices. Yeah. But I think what one of the
things that we have already, youknow, somewhat touched on is a
real an important component inhealthy sex life and marriage is
the ability or development ofemotional intimacy Yeah.
(17:49):
Between, man and wife. Orhusband and wife.
Mhmm.
Luke (17:55):
Because we're back to that dynamic of sex being a
thermometer and the thermostat.Mhmm. Right? And intimacy
playing that kinda key role.
Cameron (18:06):
Yeah. So maybe let's explain a little bit what we
mean when we say sex is athermometer and sex is a Right.
Thermostat. Yep. So when youtalk about a marriage and the
relationship of sex within amarriage Mhmm.
A thermometer measures thecurrent temperature of
(18:27):
something. Right. So you couldsay, alright. You're having sex
this much.
Luke (18:36):
Mhmm.
Cameron (18:37):
And you're both reporting that sex is fulfilling
in all of these ways. Right.Right? So the thermometer is
reading high. Good.
Good. Positive. Right. You'realive. Correct.
The marriage is thriving. Yes.What would the thermostat view
be?
Luke (18:58):
The thermostat would be that, like, alright. We're
feeling kind of disconnected.Mhmm. We're feeling maybe, kinda
like roommates. Mhmm.
You know, we're kinda just doingthing to thing.
Cameron (19:13):
Mhmm.
Luke (19:14):
The spark is kind of gone. You know, and we're not having
sex very much. Or we're nothaving sex very much. Yeah. And
saying, well, let's try andshift this a little bit.
Like, let's start prioritizingsome physical connection, some
romantic physical connection,like we maybe did before we had
(19:36):
kids or x, y, and z, whatever.And you start setting aside time
to, like, regularly engage insex. And maybe you even try and,
like, break out of, like, ausual pattern of sex. And maybe
you try and be more flirtatiousor fun or creative. Maybe you
(19:58):
just try and make out like youwere dating again or something
like that.
Mhmm. And as you do that, youfind, oh, we're just feeling a
little bit more playful and fun,and we don't feel like
roommates. The more we've kindof, like even though it feels
kinda regimented to think abouttalking about scheduling sex
into our life, but that's thereality for a lot of people. If
(20:22):
you don't schedule it into yourcalendar, doesn't happen. Mhmm.
And as you do that, you begin toexperience a more willingness to
engage in emotional intimacyMhmm. Outside of the bedroom.
Cameron (20:35):
Yeah. Thermostats are meant to set the temperature in
the room. Right. So it sets thetemperature in your marriage
using sex.
Luke (20:43):
Right.
Cameron (20:44):
Yeah. So the development of intimacy becomes
the both the thermometer and thethermostat
Luke (20:59):
Right.
Cameron (21:00):
As to whether or not sex can be can be you would call
sex 2 thumbs up, 2 thumbs down,1 thumb up, 1 thumb down. You
know? However you wanna put it.But, the you know, I have listed
here. Developing healthy sexlife within marriage.
What are the habits andpractices of that? Yeah. The
(21:22):
foundation of it is what we'vealready said is developing that
healthy Mhmm. Bond of intimacy,which begins not just with the
consideration of sex. Well, Isuppose it could.
I suppose you could say that,like, we wanna have better sex,
so how do we create betterintimacy?
Luke (21:36):
Right.
Cameron (21:38):
But it starts back some of those topics that we talked
about at the marriage at the atthe conference about, like, what
are what are some of the keyfactors that develop intimacy
that will help us in developinga better sex life? The first
being honesty. Mhmm. Secondbeing vulnerability. Right.
The ability to be known. Yep. Befully known. Yeah. To be,
(22:05):
Genesis chapter 3.
Luke (22:07):
Mhmm.
Cameron (22:08):
To be naked And and and feel no shame.
Luke (22:11):
Yep.
Cameron (22:12):
Right? Naked emo not naked physically.
Luke (22:16):
Mhmm.
Cameron (22:17):
Naked
Luke (22:18):
Emotionally.
Cameron (22:18):
Emotionally.
Luke (22:19):
Because if you can't be naked emotionally, what makes
you think you can be nakedphysically? Mhmm. And
ultimately, nakedly nakedemotionally at the same time.
Cameron (22:28):
Yeah. Well, that's actually what happens is that we
we think we can be nakedphysically without being naked
emotionally. Mhmm. So we getnaked physically, but we never
get naked emotionally. And so wenever actually experience
intimacy
Luke (22:46):
Right.
Cameron (22:47):
Which diminishes quality. Mhmm. So you to
increase quality of sex
Luke (22:55):
Mhmm.
Cameron (22:56):
You must increase emotional intimacy. Right. You
must increase your willingnessto be fully intimate Mhmm.
Emotionally, which means I'm nottrying to cover up parts of
myself.
Luke (23:10):
Yep.
Cameron (23:11):
I'm not trying to hide parts of myself.
Luke (23:13):
You have to show up.
Cameron (23:14):
You have to show up. Mhmm. You have to show up. And
I, you know, in some ways,intimacy happens. It is a long
obedience in the same direction.
Mhmm. It doesn't I I do thinkthat it is a little it's a
(23:38):
little shortsighted to say thatintimacy emotional intimacy can
happen quickly.
Luke (23:47):
Mhmm.
Cameron (23:48):
Like, it it we are all broken. We are all carrying our
we are all bringing baggage intosituations. Yep. We are all
learning to trust. Mhmm.
And we all in relationship, webreak that trust with people.
Yep. We give them reasons tobelieve that we're not safe.
Luke (24:06):
Mhmm.
Cameron (24:07):
And we have to come back and start over again
Luke (24:09):
Mhmm.
Cameron (24:10):
And rebuild that trust.
Luke (24:11):
Yeah.
Cameron (24:13):
So the building of intimacy happens progressively
over time in the midst of longobedience in same direction.
There are things that can bedone to ensure that intimacy is
being built maybe at a moreprecipitous rate than, than just
normal. Mhmm. But it does alsojust take time.
Luke (24:34):
Yeah.
Cameron (24:35):
Building emotional intimacy, which then builds
physical intimacy just takestime.
Luke (24:40):
What takes consistency? Right? Like, we have to know
again, we're back to the natureof covenant. Covenant creating a
safe space for emotionalintimacy. But then also,
covenant is consistency too.
It's showing up all the time.It's showing up regularly and
being committed to doing that.
Cameron (25:00):
Mhmm. Mhmm. So I talked a little bit about this at the
conference. I'm not afraid totalk about it. I think it's a
good I think it's a good thingto talk about developing a
health healthy sex life withinmarriage, habits and practices,
the scheduling Mhmm.
(25:21):
Of sex. Right. Now that doesn'tmean if you were to pick up my
calendar right now and lookthrough it, you wouldn't be able
to see when it's scheduled.Right. But we we the old the old
phrase is that we we we how'show's it go?
(25:43):
We when we fail to plan, we planto fail? Yes. Yes. When we fail
to plan, we plan to fail. And ina life where people are
extraordinarily busy and justgetting busier over time.
Mhmm. When we fail to plan timesof consecrated physical
Luke (26:05):
Right.
Cameron (26:05):
Intimacy Mhmm. It becomes very easy for us to to
put it on the back burner
Luke (26:16):
Yeah.
Cameron (26:16):
Or for it to not happen. And because it requires
a lot of us.
Luke (26:22):
It does.
Cameron (26:25):
And so I I think it's I think it's wise. My wife and I
have, for pretty much our entiremarriage, even right even pretty
much right from the get go, hadkind of determined that we did
not want to fall into a patternof, working really hard, being
(26:49):
really busy, never never benever really engaging in one
another's life enough to, like,consecrate the time to set it
apart. Right? So we said, okay.Well, let's have let's have 2
specific date nights
Luke (27:09):
Mhmm.
Cameron (27:10):
Per
Luke (27:11):
week.
Cameron (27:13):
That date night can be a night that we go out. That
date night can be a night thatwe stay in. Mhmm. But, you know,
we might put the kids to bedearly. We won't eat dinner with
them, but we'll eat you know,we'll make dinner together.
Mhmm. We'll have a date rightthere in our own very own home.
And then it's almost alwaysunderstood unless there's some
(27:36):
kind of extenuating circumstanceor whatever, that date nights
include sex. Mhmm. And apart I Ithink the the what is what would
you say the classic argumentagainst scheduling sex is?
Luke (27:55):
Oh, it's not romantic, Cameron.
Cameron (27:57):
Yeah.
Luke (27:58):
I think, like, the argument would be that, like,
well, that's not very romantic.That's not very spontaneous.
Cameron (28:04):
Spontaneous is.
Luke (28:07):
Also, like, maybe a little bit more serious argument
against it, I would say, wouldbe to say, well, Cameron, that's
kind of a like, an expectationof that. Like, is that really
fair that, like, you know, thatthat's kind of, like, scheduled
in like that? Isn't that kind ofdemanding or unhealthy? We're
(28:27):
talking about emotional intimacyhere, and this doesn't sound
like this could this couldcreate a a a place of
entitlement.
Cameron (28:34):
Yeah. Yeah. And so we've wrestled with all of those
questions, and there's a fewthings. 1, we always, Jerry and
I both always hold the freedomfor the other to say, just kinda
not feeling it tonight
Luke (28:51):
Mhmm.
Cameron (28:52):
Without even really the explanation of why
Luke (28:56):
Mhmm.
Cameron (28:56):
We're not feeling it. Because sometimes we're just,
like, really just not feelingit. Yeah. I am tired, or I don't
feel good. Yeah.
Or I just don't want to.
Luke (29:07):
Right.
Cameron (29:09):
And, only a few times and really only early in
marriage was it like, well, why?What did I do wrong? Right.
What's the matter? Are you madat me?
Luke (29:20):
Mhmm.
Cameron (29:22):
But there there comes in the in the development of
intimacy and honesty orvulnerability and honesty,
there's just a trust then isthen developed that says, no.
It's not about it really hasnothing to do with you at all or
us. It really has to more dowith me.
Luke (29:42):
Mhmm.
Cameron (29:43):
And so there, yeah, there is an kind of an
expectation that comes there,but there's also freedom out of
love for the other to releasethe other from the expectation.
Luke (29:56):
Mhmm.
Cameron (29:56):
But also, the expectation is also part of the
gift.
Luke (30:00):
Mhmm.
Cameron (30:01):
Because I know that I can't be or shouldn't be at
least Mhmm. A complete idiot
Luke (30:13):
Mhmm.
Cameron (30:13):
For 3 days. Mhmm. And then all of a sudden, now it's
date night. Right. So I get tohave sex.
Luke (30:20):
Right.
Cameron (30:20):
And my wife and there's no demand on me for having loved
my wife, served my wife,sacrificed for my wife, shared
my heart with her Right. Beenbeen present
Luke (30:32):
Mhmm.
Cameron (30:33):
At all physically or emotionally for her, poured into
her life so that there so thatwe set the right Right.
Environment for sex to be Yep.Enjoyable. Yeah. So scheduling
of it the scheduling of it doesnot yeah.
(30:57):
It takes away the spontaneityYeah. 100%. But the gift that it
gives is the it it when you takeaway spontaneity, you only have
intentionality.
Luke (31:08):
Mhmm.
Cameron (31:09):
And to approach sex intentionally gives you the
opportunity to think about whatit like, all the dynamics of
what it is.
Luke (31:18):
Mhmm.
Cameron (31:18):
The intimate portion of the intimacy portion of it and
not just the physical portion ofit. Now, usually, when say, I
can't believe you scheduled sex,that's so like, I would never
want sex to not be spontaneous.
Luke (31:30):
Right.
Cameron (31:31):
Who says you can't have spontaneous sex and have
scheduled sex? Right. You can doboth, And both happen.
Luke (31:38):
Right.
Cameron (31:39):
And both are good.
Luke (31:40):
Right. I think I think one of the things that scheduling
sex like that could have areally positive effect on and
this is a dynamic that is supercommon, I think happens a lot in
marriages, is the spouse whomaybe who, like, has a higher
(32:02):
desire or higher, like,frequency for wants sex more
often or is just more desiresphysical intimacy, can get into
a spot where they are trying tofigure out which buttons to push
on the vending machines so thatthey get sex.
Cameron (32:24):
Mhmm.
Luke (32:25):
And what that ends up doing is it puts the other
spouse in a place where allaffection feels like an
inauthentic bid for sex.
Cameron (32:32):
That's where there's a string attached to.
Luke (32:34):
There's a string attached. Right? A string attached, care,
love, and affection. Mhmm. Andthat destroys intimacy.
Because, well, you gave meflowers. Well, it's been a week,
I guess. Like, you gave me, youknow right? Like, it's been x
long since we've had intimacy.All of a sudden, my spouse is
starting to be nice and da da dada because he wants or they want
(32:58):
something from me.
And that's what they want issex. But if it's scheduled,
right, like, now all of asudden, both spouses are freed
to receive and give andexperience, like, other forms of
intimacy and affection withoutsex being the undertone Mhmm. Of
(33:21):
it. Understanding that, like,hey. I'm being affectionate,
nice, caring, supportive,whatever, not because I am
asking for something with astring attached to it.
So I think that could be ahelpful, a helpful way of
breaking that dynamic, whichhappens in a lot of
relationships.
Cameron (33:40):
Yeah. And it it it really is, like, when I, yeah,
when I am not presentemotionally, but then want to be
present physically Mhmm. That iswhat it feels like for my wife.
Yep. It's like, okay.
Now I'm just essentially, I I'musing just she's just being
(34:02):
used.
Luke (34:03):
Yep.
Cameron (34:04):
Right.
Luke (34:04):
Yeah. And we talked about sexual sins outside of marriage.
Mhmm. You wanna talk about Yes.
Cameron (34:11):
Inside? Of marriage. Yeah. Now the same happens in
reverse. Right.
This is not just, like, lest wejust beat down on men for their
caveman desire to have sex allthe time. Yeah. The same happens
in reverse or can happen inreverse if you take a
prototypical perspective on it.
Luke (34:30):
We just stick with the stereotype.
Cameron (34:31):
Stick stick with the stereotype is that when the
opposite is true Mhmm. Right?Like, there's, there's the
physicality of sex does nothappen
Luke (34:49):
Mhmm.
Cameron (34:50):
But there is a there is a continue, there's a a
continued, like, draw at ordesire for Mhmm. Emotional
intimacy
Luke (35:02):
Mhmm.
Cameron (35:03):
Without the parallel experience of physical intimacy.
Right. And so I've often heardit said and while it I think
it's it's a generality, but Ithink it's generally true is
that women experience or orwomen pursue, like, physical
(35:27):
intimacy with a man Mhmm.
Luke (35:30):
So
Cameron (35:30):
that they can experience the emotional
intimacy Mhmm. With theirspouse. And men step into the
emotional intimate intimacyspace so that they can
experience the physical intimacyspace.
Luke (35:43):
Yeah.
Cameron (35:44):
Because I it is a I mean, it's like we just talked
about. It's kind of is a stringsattached model Right. For both.
For both of them.
Luke (35:53):
Right.
Cameron (35:53):
For both for both. And I think part of that is
dangerous because you can tiltover into a self serving model.
Luke (36:03):
Right.
Cameron (36:03):
But it's also you tilt the other way and it's just you
could call it just like a I amself aware. Mhmm. And I'm also
spousal aware.
Luke (36:12):
Mhmm.
Cameron (36:12):
I know that my wife needs emotional intimacy with me
in order to have an enjoyablesexual experience with me.
Right. My wife knows that I needto have an enjoyable sexual
experience with her Mhmm. Inorder to have an emotional
intimacy experience with her.Right.
Right? And so it's just both ofus coming to the table
(36:37):
understanding that we we bothwant intimacy with one another.
Luke (36:41):
Mhmm.
Cameron (36:42):
We tend to, in general, get to that place from a
different path.
Luke (36:50):
Yep.
Cameron (36:52):
But the intentionality of having sex on a regular basis
Mhmm. Allows both of us toexperience those things. Like,
I, you know, I I have to beintentional. Right. She also has
to be intentional.
We both have to be intentional.Until now, it becomes a pattern
(37:14):
and a rhythm
Luke (37:15):
Yeah.
Cameron (37:15):
Where we're like, this is a life giving Right. Part of
our marriage. Like Yeah. It'd bedifficult to function long term
Luke (37:27):
Mhmm. Outside of it. Would you say that the principle
underneath the let let's takefor a second. Let's just say
that for some reason, right,scheduled set physical sexual
intimacy is, like, not the thingfor the couple, right,
Cameron (37:44):
for
Luke (37:44):
some reason. Would you say the core principle underneath
that is like, okay. Whether ornot you schedule it or not, the
core principle isintentionality? 100%. Right.
Cameron (37:54):
Yeah. Because if the opposite of spontaneity what is
the opposite of spontaneity?
Luke (38:01):
Regimented?
Cameron (38:02):
Yeah. Or intentional. Right. Intentional. It's
planned.
Mhmm. Right? You're eitheryou're either spontaneous or
you're planned. Right? At at theend of the day, like, it's an
intentionality or it's anintentionality towards intimacy.
Mhmm. Sometimes thatintentionality comes across in,
like,
Luke (38:19):
because you have to be intentional to actually be
spontaneous too.
Cameron (38:23):
Yeah. Even more so.
Luke (38:25):
Right. That actually takes probably takes more effort
because if you if you're justlike, oh, it's kinda like
saying, oh, we'll just take aspontaneous trip to Africa. Well
and and we're never gonna do anywe're never gonna get our
passports ready. We're nevergonna make any plans for packing
or flying. You're just nevergonna go on that trip.
Cameron (38:45):
Yeah. Or it's gonna be a disaster.
Luke (38:47):
Right. Yeah. Or it will be a disaster. An unmitigated
disaster. Yeah.
Right? Right. And that's that'swhat happens if we're if that's
our definition of spontaneity iswe don't put any intentionality
into it. Mhmm. It will justnever happen, or it will be an
unmitigated disaster.
Cameron (39:03):
What my experience with spontaneous sex is this might
not be everyone's experience. Isis that it generally it
generally only draws on one ofthose components of what we
believe sex is the purpose ofsex is for. It becomes
difficult, I think, to createintimacy in spontaneity. Yeah.
(39:26):
You can create pleasure.
Luke (39:28):
Mhmm.
Cameron (39:28):
And there's nothing wrong with that. But I think I I
think that there is I thinkhaving sex simply for the
physical pleasure of having sexis a perfectly legitimate reason
to have sex with your spouse.
Luke (39:43):
Yeah.
Cameron (39:44):
I think that, like, I don't think it's carnal. I don't
think it's cavemanish. I thinkit is a perfectly legitimate,
like, reason. Mhmm. Say, like,you know, we had spontaneous sex
because we physically wanted to.
Mhmm. But I think that it be butbut you just gotta be honest
(40:05):
with yourself at that point andwhat your what it is what type
of sex that this is Right. Andwhat its purpose is in the
moment. But because, yeah, Ithink spontaneous sex, or I
think sex is is about beingintentional. Yeah.
Luke (40:25):
No matter how or what How
Cameron (40:26):
it happens. It's
Luke (40:28):
has to have that key component of intentionality.
Yeah. Seeking to not be able.
If you can't be naked emotionally, what makes you
think you can be nakedphysically and ultimately naked
emotionally at the same time?
Cameron (00:07):
Yeah. Well, that's actually what happens is that we
think we can be naked physicallywithout being naked emotionally.
So we get naked physically, butwe never get naked emotionally.
And so we never actuallyexperience intimacy. Right.
To increase quality of sex Mhmm.You must increase emotional
(00:30):
intimacy.
Luke (00:32):
Welcome to The Uncut Podcast. I'm pastor Luke.
Cameron (00:36):
I'm pastor Cameron. And this is The
Luke (00:38):
Uncut Podcast where we have honest uncut conversations
about faith, life, and ministry.So we've kind of talked about,
we kind of really dug in andhave talked about, like, sex,
it's, like, meaning, it'sbiblical foundation, where it
(01:00):
comes from. Like, we even gave akind of a broad biblical defense
for how, for sex inside ofmarriage and not outside of it.
But we haven't gotten much intokind of, like, untangling sex
(01:21):
and its complications and therole of emotions and past
experiences and how that allplays out inside of marriage and
then what healthy sex looks likeinside of it. So that's kind of
where I think we are gonna go inthis next little segment or
episode here.
So where do you kinda wanna leadus into that? Do you have a
(01:41):
sense?
Cameron (01:44):
Well, I we touched on it a little bit at on the last
episode about in particular theway, the way in which past
sexual experiences may beaffecting current
Luke (02:04):
Mhmm. Yeah.
Cameron (02:05):
Sexual life.
Luke (02:06):
Right.
Cameron (02:10):
So some of that we I I feel like we I don't know. You
can you can nuance things todeath, and you can't possibly
hit every scenario or situationor anything like that. But, you
know, it is we it would be it'sit's difficult to to talk about
(02:35):
sex and not talk about the waysin which it has we we bring
baggage from baggage is I don'tlike that word. But Well, yeah.
It's baggage.
You know, we bring baggage fromour sexual experiences into our
marriages. Yep. Yep. Not onlyjust baggage that is of our own
(02:57):
doing. Right.
But things that have been doneto us. Yep. Things that have
been said to us. Mhmm.Experiences that we have had
that we've either not beenwillful participants in or we've
been semi willful participantsin.
Yep. And how all of that mayaffect Mhmm. A healthy Yes. Sex
(03:26):
life in your marriage.
Luke (03:28):
And here's here's even a a big thing is that your so, like,
maybe another way of saying itwith less judgmental words,
like, not saying, like, youryour baggage impacts your sex
life and marriage, but sayingyour story impacts your sex
life.
Cameron (03:47):
K. Say a little bit more about that.
Luke (03:49):
So, like, one of the things so, like, I've done a lot
of work reading, study, withdealing with sexual addiction,
things like that. So, like,there's a book called, oh, no.
I'm gonna send Unwanted, dealingwith unwanted sexual behavior by
Cameron (04:10):
Jay Springer. Yeah.
Luke (04:11):
So I went through his, like, training course, to kinda
become, like, a certified,unwanted coach so I can talk
with people through The unwantedcoach. Yes. I know. Yeah. Yeah.
Cameron (04:27):
The title of the book is unwanted.
Luke (04:29):
I it's
Cameron (04:29):
not He's not an unwanted coach.
Luke (04:31):
Right. Right. That's not what I'm saying. But one of the
things that's really I think oneof the reasons his book, his
study, his research, and hismethodology and everything
stands out is is he's trying to,and he has a tool that he's
developed through the researchthat they've been doing where
(04:54):
they have people who are dealingwith unwanted sexual behavior.
They list out, not necessarily,they do they do inventory
people, like, what kind ofpornography are they looking at?
What kind of sexual behavior arethey struggling with? Those kind
of things. They ask thosequestions. But then they also
ask a very large litany ofquestions that have to do with
(05:17):
their family of origin. Notnecessarily including set first
sexual experiences, but alsoincluding just family dynamics,
including how they related totheir father, to their mother.
Was their mother or was theirfather absent? Was their mother
or father overbearing? Thingslike that. And then they at the
(05:37):
end, they give out people who gothrough this inventory. They
give people out a sheet.
And they say, hey. You indicatedthis kind of family dynamic or
this kind of experience growingup. We think due to just, like,
the study we've done and thethings we've looked at, that it
is likely you struggle with thistype of sexual sin or this type
(05:59):
of sexual desire because we theyfind it rooted in their story.
Mhmm. And so so things that areconnected so our past sexual
experiences absolutely do cometo play in our current sexual
lives.
But so do our pastrelationships, abandonment,
(06:23):
healthy and sure secureattachments, anxious
attachments. The things that welike, the sexual preferences or
desires that we have in our sexlife can often be traced to
(06:43):
unmet or emotional unmetemotional needs Mhmm. Previously
in our stories.
Cameron (06:49):
Mhmm.
Luke (06:49):
So when I say that, I when I say that, like, what's
happening in our sexual lifeisn't necessarily, like, because
of our baggage. I'm saying it'sbecause of our story. That means
that in companies companiesencompasses everything. Right?
Cameron (07:05):
Everything from Not just those classically negative
things Exactly.
Luke (07:10):
Which is how baggage is usually. Right. But it can. And
it does include. Right.
You know? So, like, if we wereacting out our sexuality in a
sinful or unhelpful way at onepoint in our life, that's
included too. But so iseverything else. So there's this
whole, that's the thing when itcomes to the part about sex that
(07:35):
I don't think that I knowdoesn't get talked about enough
is you can find 10 gazillionpodcasts out there, books,
videos about, like, themechanics of sex. Right?
Or the, like, tips and tricks ofsex. But it's not very often
that people discuss theemotional and social components
(07:59):
of sex. There's a wholeunderlying component that is
just not talked about. It's kindof talked about when it comes to
females, to women. Right?
That's kind of generallyacknowledged in our media and
those stories we tell about, oh,well, women get really attached.
(08:20):
So, like, if we're watching somesort of, like, stereotypical
movie or sitcom and, oh, there'sthis couple, and they're trying
to have friends with benefitbenefits. The way that stories
typically plays out is what?
Cameron (08:31):
The woman catches feelings.
Luke (08:32):
The woman catches feelings.
Cameron (08:34):
Yeah. The
Luke (08:34):
man doesn't. He leaves her. She's hurt. And then she
falls in love with the personshe was supposed to be in love
with the whole time anyways.Right?
That's the story that gets toldover and over and over again.
But the unfortunate part aboutthat is is that, okay, we
acknowledge the emotional socialcomponent for women, but then we
never talk about it for men. Andthat goes and so then what you
(08:56):
end up having is you end uphaving women who think that men
don't have an emotionalcomponent when it comes to sex,
and men who also don't thinkthey have emotional component to
it. And then that's neveraddressed inside of the sexual
relationship. And it's justwell, for men, it's just this
physical thing.
Cameron (09:14):
Mhmm.
Luke (09:15):
And the men perpetuate it because they never develop a
curiosity to understand what'sundergirding their physical
desire. So Yeah.
Cameron (09:24):
As and I yeah. I would agree with that. And I I guess
it wouldn't be my I don't wannamake my experience normative.
But what my my experience hasbeen is, like, as life has gone
on and I've been married longerand longer and longer and
(09:45):
longer, the physical componentof sex becomes less important.
And the emotional component ofsex becomes more important.
Yeah. And I don't know if it's afunction of my, like, just
biological age as a man, or ifit's a function of intimacy
(10:07):
that's developed progressivelyover time
Luke (10:11):
Yeah.
Cameron (10:11):
With one person. Probably a little bit of a
mixture of both.
Luke (10:15):
Maybe.
Cameron (10:16):
But, certainly, I think that the, like, yeah, the
emotional component of sex formen, it gets it gets hidden or,
or yeah. I guess it gets hiddenor or covered up early in
(10:40):
someone's life. Mhmm. But it'smanifesting itself over here.
So, like, in in the midst ofrelationship, the emotional
component of sex can sometimesbe, hidden.
Yes. But if it is hidden for toolong in the midst of
(11:03):
relationship, then it takes formin another environment.
Luke (11:09):
Mhmm.
Cameron (11:09):
And for most men, maybe it's unfair. For a lot of men,
that usually is in its, like, init's pursuit of what we want
emotionally
Luke (11:25):
Mhmm.
Cameron (11:25):
Outside of relationship. Yeah. So in
pornographic material Right. Orfantasy
Luke (11:32):
Right.
Cameron (11:32):
Or whatever because we feel unsafe emotionally in the
actual relationship that we'rein. Right. And so the part of
sex that is for us emotionalmust be pursued over here Right.
Where there's not
Luke (11:49):
there's There's there's no risk of vulnerability.
Cameron (11:52):
No risk of getting hurt.
Luke (11:53):
Right. Right. And it's it's a combination, I think, of,
1, men don't know how to theythey I think men are often
unaware. They're unaware of whatthey're actually looking for.
Mhmm.
There's a book that talks about,sexual addiction and things like
(12:14):
that, and the title of it isvery great. And the beginning
concept is is well stated. It'scalled false intimacy. Mhmm.
Right?
And what we're looking for isintimacy in some way. Right?
We're back to that biblicalconcept we talked about in the
past episode of being known insome way. Being wanted, being
(12:35):
desired, being known, be beingfully accepted as who we are.
And but a lot of men don't knowthat's what they're looking for.
They say, oh, well, I'm just, Ijust have a sexual desire, and I
just want this. Or I'm addictedto this, or I'm addicted to this
type of relationship, or thissexual act, or whatever. And
(12:58):
they're unaware of theundercurrent that's underneath
of it. So I think there's a one,there's an unawareness because
there's lack of curiosity, orthere's a level of awareness
they have, but there's anunwilling to risk getting that
need met in a emotionallyvulnerable way. And it feels
(13:20):
more comfortable to just say, Iwant this physical thing
Cameron (13:23):
Mhmm.
Luke (13:24):
Rather than saying, I actually need this emotional
thing.
Cameron (13:26):
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Luke (13:28):
Is that what you were
Cameron (13:29):
Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah.
That all, you know, I don't Ican't speak really
authoritatively on how that sametype of dynamic may manifest
itself in a woman's experienceof sex. Yeah. I don't think it's
(13:49):
dissimilar. No. They just searchfor the emotional connection in
a different way.
Yes. I I agree. Throughdifferent means.
Luke (13:56):
Through different means. And, like, in probably the I
mean, like I said, like, wecould die in nuance. So there's
absolutely like, those samedynamics can and do happen in
women. So women can Mhmm.Experience sexual brokenness,
unwanted sexual behavior, oraddiction.
(14:16):
And those same underlyingcurrents remain true there. The
other aspect or at least I Ithink this is kind of trending
in a positive direction. I thinkthis is less true than it maybe
was in past generations. But,the deprioritization of the
physical aspect of it for women,we've emphasized, oh, it's like
(14:40):
an emotional thing. But notrecognizing or understanding
anatomy, how sex functions for awoman, or that they can have and
experience sexual desire at thesame pace or outpace men and
things like that.
That, like, the stereotype,right, of the man always wants
(15:01):
more sex than the woman. Right?That's kind of the at least
that's the stereotype that endsup in.
Cameron (15:07):
It's the typical stereotype.
Luke (15:08):
Stereotype stereotype. That's not necessarily always
true. Mhmm. Right? And so butthat's a narrative that doesn't
get talked about.
Right? And so that's the othercomponent of sex that I think
for women, at leasthistorically, has been ignored.
But neither of
Cameron (15:26):
us are Yeah.
Luke (15:27):
Women and so we should Right.
Cameron (15:28):
But it's a cultural dynamic that we have just
perpetuated over time that menalways want more sex. Women
always want less sex. And soit's not safe Right. For a a man
to say, I want less sex.
Luke (15:44):
Right.
Cameron (15:44):
It's not safe for a woman to say Right. I want more.
Luke (15:48):
But it does happen.
Cameron (15:49):
But it does happen.
Luke (15:50):
I Yeah. I know a couple where that's the dynamic.
Cameron (15:52):
Yeah. Right. That's the it's just how it happens. Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay. So let's maybe talk alittle bit more than about
developing a healthy sex life inmarriage. You know, we've talked
a lot about, the overflow ofsex, outside of covenant. We've
(16:17):
talked about trauma and baggageand story and all the negative
Yep. Aspects of it, but wehaven't talked a whole lot about
the real positive aspects of sexwithin marriage, which is really
what I would love.
You know, that's that's thethat's the goal. Yeah. That's
the target. Yeah. All otherthings being all of the things
(16:41):
considered the same.
Mhmm. Right? We wanna talk aboutwhat how do we build into, have,
develop healthy sex life inmarriage. Yeah. And what are
some of the you know, I don'tmean to make it super, like,
here are the components, dothese things, and it will be
(17:01):
easy.
Right.
Luke (17:02):
Because we can't just shift from being, oh, we're
about, like we're not justmagically shifting to a tools
conversation here.
Cameron (17:09):
No. Mm-mm. Right. No. It's not.
You know, there's not so muchyeah. I don't even know that I I
mean, maybe there are, like,tools per se that could help.
Luke (17:21):
Like best practices.
Cameron (17:22):
Best practices. Yeah. But I think what one of the
things that we have already, youknow, somewhat touched on is a
real an important component inhealthy sex life and marriage is
the ability or development ofemotional intimacy Yeah.
(17:49):
Between, man and wife. Orhusband and wife.
Mhmm.
Luke (17:55):
Because we're back to that dynamic of sex being a
thermometer and the thermostat.Mhmm. Right? And intimacy
playing that kinda key role.
Cameron (18:06):
Yeah. So maybe let's explain a little bit what we
mean when we say sex is athermometer and sex is a Right.
Thermostat. Yep. So when youtalk about a marriage and the
relationship of sex within amarriage Mhmm.
A thermometer measures thecurrent temperature of
(18:27):
something. Right. So you couldsay, alright. You're having sex
this much.
Luke (18:36):
Mhmm.
Cameron (18:37):
And you're both reporting that sex is fulfilling
in all of these ways. Right.Right? So the thermometer is
reading high. Good.
Good. Positive. Right. You'realive. Correct.
The marriage is thriving. Yes.What would the thermostat view
be?
Luke (18:58):
The thermostat would be that, like, alright. We're
feeling kind of disconnected.Mhmm. We're feeling maybe, kinda
like roommates. Mhmm.
You know, we're kinda just doingthing to thing.
Cameron (19:13):
Mhmm.
Luke (19:14):
The spark is kind of gone. You know, and we're not having
sex very much. Or we're nothaving sex very much. Yeah. And
saying, well, let's try andshift this a little bit.
Like, let's start prioritizingsome physical connection, some
romantic physical connection,like we maybe did before we had
(19:36):
kids or x, y, and z, whatever.And you start setting aside time
to, like, regularly engage insex. And maybe you even try and,
like, break out of, like, ausual pattern of sex. And maybe
you try and be more flirtatiousor fun or creative. Maybe you
(19:58):
just try and make out like youwere dating again or something
like that.
Mhmm. And as you do that, youfind, oh, we're just feeling a
little bit more playful and fun,and we don't feel like
roommates. The more we've kindof, like even though it feels
kinda regimented to think abouttalking about scheduling sex
into our life, but that's thereality for a lot of people. If
(20:22):
you don't schedule it into yourcalendar, doesn't happen. Mhmm.
And as you do that, you begin toexperience a more willingness to
engage in emotional intimacyMhmm. Outside of the bedroom.
Cameron (20:35):
Yeah. Thermostats are meant to set the temperature in
the room. Right. So it sets thetemperature in your marriage
using sex.
Luke (20:43):
Right.
Cameron (20:44):
Yeah. So the development of intimacy becomes
the both the thermometer and thethermostat
Luke (20:59):
Right.
Cameron (21:00):
As to whether or not sex can be can be you would call
sex 2 thumbs up, 2 thumbs down,1 thumb up, 1 thumb down. You
know? However you wanna put it.But, the you know, I have listed
here. Developing healthy sexlife within marriage.
What are the habits andpractices of that? Yeah. The
(21:22):
foundation of it is what we'vealready said is developing that
healthy Mhmm. Bond of intimacy,which begins not just with the
consideration of sex. Well, Isuppose it could.
I suppose you could say that,like, we wanna have better sex,
so how do we create betterintimacy?
Luke (21:36):
Right.
Cameron (21:38):
But it starts back some of those topics that we talked
about at the marriage at the atthe conference about, like, what
are what are some of the keyfactors that develop intimacy
that will help us in developinga better sex life? The first
being honesty. Mhmm. Secondbeing vulnerability. Right.
The ability to be known. Yep. Befully known. Yeah. To be,
(22:05):
Genesis chapter 3.
Luke (22:07):
Mhmm.
Cameron (22:08):
To be naked And and and feel no shame.
Luke (22:11):
Yep.
Cameron (22:12):
Right? Naked emo not naked physically.
Luke (22:16):
Mhmm.
Cameron (22:17):
Naked
Luke (22:18):
Emotionally.
Cameron (22:18):
Emotionally.
Luke (22:19):
Because if you can't be naked emotionally, what makes
you think you can be nakedphysically? Mhmm. And
ultimately, nakedly nakedemotionally at the same time.
Cameron (22:28):
Yeah. Well, that's actually what happens is that we
we think we can be nakedphysically without being naked
emotionally. Mhmm. So we getnaked physically, but we never
get naked emotionally. And so wenever actually experience
intimacy
Luke (22:46):
Right.
Cameron (22:47):
Which diminishes quality. Mhmm. So you to
increase quality of sex
Luke (22:55):
Mhmm.
Cameron (22:56):
You must increase emotional intimacy. Right. You
must increase your willingnessto be fully intimate Mhmm.
Emotionally, which means I'm nottrying to cover up parts of
myself.
Luke (23:10):
Yep.
Cameron (23:11):
I'm not trying to hide parts of myself.
Luke (23:13):
You have to show up.
Cameron (23:14):
You have to show up. Mhmm. You have to show up. And
I, you know, in some ways,intimacy happens. It is a long
obedience in the same direction.
Mhmm. It doesn't I I do thinkthat it is a little it's a
(23:38):
little shortsighted to say thatintimacy emotional intimacy can
happen quickly.
Luke (23:47):
Mhmm.
Cameron (23:48):
Like, it it we are all broken. We are all carrying our
we are all bringing baggage intosituations. Yep. We are all
learning to trust. Mhmm.
And we all in relationship, webreak that trust with people.
Yep. We give them reasons tobelieve that we're not safe.
Luke (24:06):
Mhmm.
Cameron (24:07):
And we have to come back and start over again
Luke (24:09):
Mhmm.
Cameron (24:10):
And rebuild that trust.
Luke (24:11):
Yeah.
Cameron (24:13):
So the building of intimacy happens progressively
over time in the midst of longobedience in same direction.
There are things that can bedone to ensure that intimacy is
being built maybe at a moreprecipitous rate than, than just
normal. Mhmm. But it does alsojust take time.
Luke (24:34):
Yeah.
Cameron (24:35):
Building emotional intimacy, which then builds
physical intimacy just takestime.
Luke (24:40):
What takes consistency? Right? Like, we have to know
again, we're back to the natureof covenant. Covenant creating a
safe space for emotionalintimacy. But then also,
covenant is consistency too.
It's showing up all the time.It's showing up regularly and
being committed to doing that.
Cameron (25:00):
Mhmm. Mhmm. So I talked a little bit about this at the
conference. I'm not afraid totalk about it. I think it's a
good I think it's a good thingto talk about developing a
health healthy sex life withinmarriage, habits and practices,
the scheduling Mhmm.
(25:21):
Of sex. Right. Now that doesn'tmean if you were to pick up my
calendar right now and lookthrough it, you wouldn't be able
to see when it's scheduled.Right. But we we the old the old
phrase is that we we we how'show's it go?
(25:43):
We when we fail to plan, we planto fail? Yes. Yes. When we fail
to plan, we plan to fail. And ina life where people are
extraordinarily busy and justgetting busier over time.
Mhmm. When we fail to plan timesof consecrated physical
Luke (26:05):
Right.
Cameron (26:05):
Intimacy Mhmm. It becomes very easy for us to to
put it on the back burner
Luke (26:16):
Yeah.
Cameron (26:16):
Or for it to not happen. And because it requires
a lot of us.
Luke (26:22):
It does.
Cameron (26:25):
And so I I think it's I think it's wise. My wife and I
have, for pretty much our entiremarriage, even right even pretty
much right from the get go, hadkind of determined that we did
not want to fall into a patternof, working really hard, being
(26:49):
really busy, never never benever really engaging in one
another's life enough to, like,consecrate the time to set it
apart. Right? So we said, okay.Well, let's have let's have 2
specific date nights
Luke (27:09):
Mhmm.
Cameron (27:10):
Per
Luke (27:11):
week.
Cameron (27:13):
That date night can be a night that we go out. That
date night can be a night thatwe stay in. Mhmm. But, you know,
we might put the kids to bedearly. We won't eat dinner with
them, but we'll eat you know,we'll make dinner together.
Mhmm. We'll have a date rightthere in our own very own home.
And then it's almost alwaysunderstood unless there's some
(27:36):
kind of extenuating circumstanceor whatever, that date nights
include sex. Mhmm. And apart I Ithink the the what is what would
you say the classic argumentagainst scheduling sex is?
Luke (27:55):
Oh, it's not romantic, Cameron.
Cameron (27:57):
Yeah.
Luke (27:58):
I think, like, the argument would be that, like,
well, that's not very romantic.That's not very spontaneous.
Cameron (28:04):
Spontaneous is.
Luke (28:07):
Also, like, maybe a little bit more serious argument
against it, I would say, wouldbe to say, well, Cameron, that's
kind of a like, an expectationof that. Like, is that really
fair that, like, you know, thatthat's kind of, like, scheduled
in like that? Isn't that kind ofdemanding or unhealthy? We're
(28:27):
talking about emotional intimacyhere, and this doesn't sound
like this could this couldcreate a a a place of
entitlement.
Cameron (28:34):
Yeah. Yeah. And so we've wrestled with all of those
questions, and there's a fewthings. 1, we always, Jerry and
I both always hold the freedomfor the other to say, just kinda
not feeling it tonight
Luke (28:51):
Mhmm.
Cameron (28:52):
Without even really the explanation of why
Luke (28:56):
Mhmm.
Cameron (28:56):
We're not feeling it. Because sometimes we're just,
like, really just not feelingit. Yeah. I am tired, or I don't
feel good. Yeah.
Or I just don't want to.
Luke (29:07):
Right.
Cameron (29:09):
And, only a few times and really only early in
marriage was it like, well, why?What did I do wrong? Right.
What's the matter? Are you madat me?
Luke (29:20):
Mhmm.
Cameron (29:22):
But there there comes in the in the development of
intimacy and honesty orvulnerability and honesty,
there's just a trust then isthen developed that says, no.
It's not about it really hasnothing to do with you at all or
us. It really has to more dowith me.
Luke (29:42):
Mhmm.
Cameron (29:43):
And so there, yeah, there is an kind of an
expectation that comes there,but there's also freedom out of
love for the other to releasethe other from the expectation.
Luke (29:56):
Mhmm.
Cameron (29:56):
But also, the expectation is also part of the
gift.
Luke (30:00):
Mhmm.
Cameron (30:01):
Because I know that I can't be or shouldn't be at
least Mhmm. A complete idiot
Luke (30:13):
Mhmm.
Cameron (30:13):
For 3 days. Mhmm. And then all of a sudden, now it's
date night. Right. So I get tohave sex.
Luke (30:20):
Right.
Cameron (30:20):
And my wife and there's no demand on me for having loved
my wife, served my wife,sacrificed for my wife, shared
my heart with her Right. Beenbeen present
Luke (30:32):
Mhmm.
Cameron (30:33):
At all physically or emotionally for her, poured into
her life so that there so thatwe set the right Right.
Environment for sex to be Yep.Enjoyable. Yeah. So scheduling
of it the scheduling of it doesnot yeah.
(30:57):
It takes away the spontaneityYeah. 100%. But the gift that it
gives is the it it when you takeaway spontaneity, you only have
intentionality.
Luke (31:08):
Mhmm.
Cameron (31:09):
And to approach sex intentionally gives you the
opportunity to think about whatit like, all the dynamics of
what it is.
Luke (31:18):
Mhmm.
Cameron (31:18):
The intimate portion of the intimacy portion of it and
not just the physical portion ofit. Now, usually, when say, I
can't believe you scheduled sex,that's so like, I would never
want sex to not be spontaneous.
Luke (31:30):
Right.
Cameron (31:31):
Who says you can't have spontaneous sex and have
scheduled sex? Right. You can doboth, And both happen.
Luke (31:38):
Right.
Cameron (31:39):
And both are good.
Luke (31:40):
Right. I think I think one of the things that scheduling
sex like that could have areally positive effect on and
this is a dynamic that is supercommon, I think happens a lot in
marriages, is the spouse whomaybe who, like, has a higher
(32:02):
desire or higher, like,frequency for wants sex more
often or is just more desiresphysical intimacy, can get into
a spot where they are trying tofigure out which buttons to push
on the vending machines so thatthey get sex.
Cameron (32:24):
Mhmm.
Luke (32:25):
And what that ends up doing is it puts the other
spouse in a place where allaffection feels like an
inauthentic bid for sex.
Cameron (32:32):
That's where there's a string attached to.
Luke (32:34):
There's a string attached. Right? A string attached, care,
love, and affection. Mhmm. Andthat destroys intimacy.
Because, well, you gave meflowers. Well, it's been a week,
I guess. Like, you gave me, youknow right? Like, it's been x
long since we've had intimacy.All of a sudden, my spouse is
starting to be nice and da da dada because he wants or they want
(32:58):
something from me.
And that's what they want issex. But if it's scheduled,
right, like, now all of asudden, both spouses are freed
to receive and give andexperience, like, other forms of
intimacy and affection withoutsex being the undertone Mhmm. Of
(33:21):
it. Understanding that, like,hey. I'm being affectionate,
nice, caring, supportive,whatever, not because I am
asking for something with astring attached to it.
So I think that could be ahelpful, a helpful way of
breaking that dynamic, whichhappens in a lot of
relationships.
Cameron (33:40):
Yeah. And it it it really is, like, when I, yeah,
when I am not presentemotionally, but then want to be
present physically Mhmm. That iswhat it feels like for my wife.
Yep. It's like, okay.
Now I'm just essentially, I I'musing just she's just being
(34:02):
used.
Luke (34:03):
Yep.
Cameron (34:04):
Right.
Luke (34:04):
Yeah. And we talked about sexual sins outside of marriage.
Mhmm. You wanna talk about Yes.
Cameron (34:11):
Inside? Of marriage. Yeah. Now the same happens in
reverse. Right.
This is not just, like, lest wejust beat down on men for their
caveman desire to have sex allthe time. Yeah. The same happens
in reverse or can happen inreverse if you take a
prototypical perspective on it.
Luke (34:30):
We just stick with the stereotype.
Cameron (34:31):
Stick stick with the stereotype is that when the
opposite is true Mhmm. Right?Like, there's, there's the
physicality of sex does nothappen
Luke (34:49):
Mhmm.
Cameron (34:50):
But there is a there is a continue, there's a a
continued, like, draw at ordesire for Mhmm. Emotional
intimacy
Luke (35:02):
Mhmm.
Cameron (35:03):
Without the parallel experience of physical intimacy.
Right. And so I've often heardit said and while it I think
it's it's a generality, but Ithink it's generally true is
that women experience or orwomen pursue, like, physical
(35:27):
intimacy with a man Mhmm.
Luke (35:30):
So
Cameron (35:30):
that they can experience the emotional
intimacy Mhmm. With theirspouse. And men step into the
emotional intimate intimacyspace so that they can
experience the physical intimacyspace.
Luke (35:43):
Yeah.
Cameron (35:44):
Because I it is a I mean, it's like we just talked
about. It's kind of is a stringsattached model Right. For both.
For both of them.
Luke (35:53):
Right.
Cameron (35:53):
For both for both. And I think part of that is
dangerous because you can tiltover into a self serving model.
Luke (36:03):
Right.
Cameron (36:03):
But it's also you tilt the other way and it's just you
could call it just like a I amself aware. Mhmm. And I'm also
spousal aware.
Luke (36:12):
Mhmm.
Cameron (36:12):
I know that my wife needs emotional intimacy with me
in order to have an enjoyablesexual experience with me.
Right. My wife knows that I needto have an enjoyable sexual
experience with her Mhmm. Inorder to have an emotional
intimacy experience with her.Right.
Right? And so it's just both ofus coming to the table
(36:37):
understanding that we we bothwant intimacy with one another.
Luke (36:41):
Mhmm.
Cameron (36:42):
We tend to, in general, get to that place from a
different path.
Luke (36:50):
Yep.
Cameron (36:52):
But the intentionality of having sex on a regular basis
Mhmm. Allows both of us toexperience those things. Like,
I, you know, I I have to beintentional. Right. She also has
to be intentional.
We both have to be intentional.Until now, it becomes a pattern
(37:14):
and a rhythm
Luke (37:15):
Yeah.
Cameron (37:15):
Where we're like, this is a life giving Right. Part of
our marriage. Like Yeah. It'd bedifficult to function long term
Luke (37:27):
Mhmm. Outside of it. Would you say that the principle
underneath the let let's takefor a second. Let's just say
that for some reason, right,scheduled set physical sexual
intimacy is, like, not the thingfor the couple, right,
Cameron (37:44):
for
Luke (37:44):
some reason. Would you say the core principle underneath
that is like, okay. Whether ornot you schedule it or not, the
core principle isintentionality? 100%. Right.
Cameron (37:54):
Yeah. Because if the opposite of spontaneity what is
the opposite of spontaneity?
Luke (38:01):
Regimented?
Cameron (38:02):
Yeah. Or intentional. Right. Intentional. It's
planned.
Mhmm. Right? You're eitheryou're either spontaneous or
you're planned. Right? At at theend of the day, like, it's an
intentionality or it's anintentionality towards intimacy.
Mhmm. Sometimes thatintentionality comes across in,
like,
Luke (38:19):
because you have to be intentional to actually be
spontaneous too.
Cameron (38:23):
Yeah. Even more so.
Luke (38:25):
Right. That actually takes probably takes more effort
because if you if you're justlike, oh, it's kinda like
saying, oh, we'll just take aspontaneous trip to Africa. Well
and and we're never gonna do anywe're never gonna get our
passports ready. We're nevergonna make any plans for packing
or flying. You're just nevergonna go on that trip.
Cameron (38:45):
Yeah. Or it's gonna be a disaster.
Luke (38:47):
Right. Yeah. Or it will be a disaster. An unmitigated
disaster. Yeah.
Right? Right. And that's that'swhat happens if we're if that's
our definition of spontaneity iswe don't put any intentionality
into it. Mhmm. It will justnever happen, or it will be an
unmitigated disaster.
Cameron (39:03):
What my experience with spontaneous sex is this might
not be everyone's experience. Isis that it generally it
generally only draws on one ofthose components of what we
believe sex is the purpose ofsex is for. It becomes
difficult, I think, to createintimacy in spontaneity. Yeah.
(39:26):
You can create pleasure.
Luke (39:28):
Mhmm.
Cameron (39:28):
And there's nothing wrong with that. But I think I I
think that there is I thinkhaving sex simply for the
physical pleasure of having sexis a perfectly legitimate reason
to have sex with your spouse.
Luke (39:43):
Yeah.
Cameron (39:44):
I think that, like, I don't think it's carnal. I don't
think it's cavemanish. I thinkit is a perfectly legitimate,
like, reason. Mhmm. Say, like,you know, we had spontaneous sex
because we physically wanted to.
Mhmm. But I think that it be butbut you just gotta be honest
(40:05):
with yourself at that point andwhat your what it is what type
of sex that this is Right. Andwhat its purpose is in the
moment. But because, yeah, Ithink spontaneous sex, or I
think sex is is about beingintentional. Yeah.
Luke (40:25):
No matter how or what How
Cameron (40:26):
it happens. It's
Luke (40:28):
has to have that key component of intentionality.
Yeah. Seeking to not be able.
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