March 13, 2025 • 46 mins
Luke and Cameron continue their discussion on prayer and fasting.
- (00:00) - Introduction
- (01:51) - Fasting vs. Abstaining
- (05:26) - The Importance of Corporate Fasting
- (16:36) - Unity in Prayer and Fasting
- (24:21) - The Nature of God's Will
- (37:09) - The Dynamics of Prayer
- (45:10) - Conclusion and Reflection
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Luke (00:25):
Welcome to the Uncut podcast. I'm Pastor Luke.
Cameron (00:29):
And I am Pastor Cameron.
Luke (00:31):
And this is the Uncut podcast, where we have honest,
uncut conversations about faith,life, and ministry. Well,
welcome back, everybody. We'vebeen last week, we kinda kicked
off sort of a series of episodesdiscussing prayer. Mhmm. And we
(00:52):
talked a lot about fasting.
Cameron (00:55):
Yeah. Almost exclusively last week was about
fasting.
Luke (00:59):
Yeah. Mhmm. It was kind of it we didn't set out necessarily
for that to be the topic, butthat's what it ended up being.
So yeah. I don't know.
I I felt like that was a reallygood discussion to have and
something that's just not asoften talked about.
Cameron (01:18):
Right. Yeah. I I think so too, and I think there were
some good distinctions, at leastfor our community here at
Conduit that we were trying tomake. And in particular, what
fasting I I I think especiallyimportant, a conversation I
don't hear many people having isthe what a substantive
(01:42):
difference is between fastingand abstaining from something.
Mhmm.
And maybe I don't know. Maybemore could be said about that.
Maybe I was one of the churchesthat I follow, I saw that their
pastor had put out that theywere doing that the whole church
(02:04):
was doing a digital fast Yeah.For Lent. Mhmm.
And I had I had feelings aboutthat. And have feelings about
that. And not judgmentalfeelings. Like, I don't wanna I
don't wanna be like I don'twanna turn What's Fasting into
(02:29):
some hypocritical or legalistictype of thing either.
Luke (02:33):
Right.
Yeah. Well, the thing is is that what they're doing the
thing that they are doing is notbad or wrong. It's great. Right?
It's great.
I think for us, it's just beingdistinctive with our language.
Cameron (02:48):
Yeah.
Luke (02:51):
I think we just think that I I think that's just important.
Mhmm. You know? Like, the way wetalk about it. I mean, if you
wanna say you fast fromsomething, like, I guess that's
fine, but like, it just what itdoes is it just waters down the
language around it.
So
Cameron (03:08):
Yeah. Yeah. I I don't and I I do wonder if it if it
actually creates any confusionfor people in the modern world
or not to like say, I'mabstaining from or I'm fasting
from. Maybe it doesn't. Maybelike, you know, trying to talk
about a distinction wherethere's not really a difference.
But the fast like fasting seemsa little bit like it's used just
(03:35):
as a verb.
Luke (03:36):
Mhmm.
Cameron (03:37):
Like, you can just fast anything. Yeah. And I almost
feel in scripture that fasting'smore of like a noun.
Luke (03:46):
Yeah. It's a thing Right.
Cameron (03:49):
That's done. Yep. Not a not a not a action that you take
against anything that you don't,that you want less of. Mhmm. So,
I don't know.
It's probably only aconversation or distinction that
(04:10):
people who think about thisstuff too much are really
having, or wanna have.
Luke (04:14):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's definitely like I do think
it's worth having becausefasting from food has almost
disappeared from the evangelicalchurch. Mhmm. I think that makes
it worth having thatconversation.
Cameron (04:29):
Yeah.
Luke (04:30):
If it was just like, oh, yeah, fasting is like a regular
discipline. It's not commonlyjust like ignored. I think we'd
be just like, oh, well, why arewe making such a distinction?
People fast from food all thetime. It's just that that has
almost what's has happened isthat people are so willing to
(04:52):
fast from anything Mhmm.
Except for food. Mhmm. And then,where the question is, like,
well, are we neglectingsomething particularly important
here Mhmm. By making fastingabout anything but what its
original and current intent issupposed to be around. Mhmm.
(05:13):
Yeah. I do think it's important,but it's also not, like you
said, it's not like, we don'twant to create some sort of
legalistic, like, languagepolice around it. Right. Like,
we're not interested in doingthat.
Cameron (05:27):
No. Especially because, like you said, I think that
people who fast from thingslike, or abstain from see, I'm
even doing it. Abstain fromthings like, you know, digital
media, or their phones, orwhatever. Like, they're doing a
good thing. It's not Yeah.
There's nothing wrong with that.So whether or not we make a big
(05:49):
deal of it or not is kind of ourown issue.
Luke (05:53):
Yes.
Cameron (05:57):
But I think part of the other thing that I've been
thinking about lately withfasting, and this had kind of
come out as a result of I thinkthe last episode, where like, we
were we recorded that episodebefore I preached the sermon on
(06:18):
fasting. Mhmm. Like, well, maybesome of these ideas are gonna
come out in the sermon, andmaybe some of them aren't. I
don't think this idea came outin our conversation on the
podcast last week, but, as Iread more and more and more
accounts in scripture offasting, I was struck by just,
(06:46):
like, the overwhelming theoverwhelming number of accounts
where people fasted together.
Luke (06:56):
Mhmm.
Cameron (06:57):
Where fasting was corporate. It was a group of
people who were called
Luke (07:02):
Mhmm.
Cameron (07:03):
To fasting for fasting and prayer for specific
purposes. Mhmm. And then I kindof reflected. I was trying to do
some reflection on what thecurrent, maybe just in the
evangelical world, makeup offasting is. And it seems to be
(07:28):
excuse me.
It seems to be almostexclusively, like, really,
really highly individualistic.Yeah. It is not a corporate
practice. And by and large.Yeah.
In in practice now, it's not acorporate practice.
Luke (07:48):
Mhmm.
Cameron (07:49):
And what that like, I don't know. Like, I'm thinking
about what gets forfeited? Whyis it a corporate practice,
number one? Yeah. What getsforfeited when it's only
individualistic Mhmm.
If anything? And who should callfast?
Luke (08:12):
Yeah. Yeah.
Cameron (08:14):
And and because that gets down to like the purpose of
the fasting and praying.
Luke (08:24):
Mhmm.
Cameron (08:25):
You know, like when Jehoshaphat, as an example that
I used in in second Chroniclescalled, the nation of Judah to
fast because the Moabites andthe Ammonites were like at the
doorstep, right? He was theking. Yep. So he got to call the
fast type of thing. Yeah.
(08:45):
But I'm assuming that there wasa prophet in the land at that
time. Maybe there wasn't. I'massuming that there was a
prophet in the land at thattime. There's probably a high
priest. There's definitely ahigh priest
Luke (08:57):
Mhmm.
Cameron (08:58):
At that time, it was just Judah. But so just like,
what are the what are thecircumstances of corporate
fasts? How do they get Yeah. Andlike, what does it maybe tell us
about the way in which faith ispracticed now?
Luke (09:17):
Yeah. Well, I think this is interesting, because I would
say that this is probably just amicrocosm. Like, fact that
fasting is mostlyindividualistic in the way we
conceptualize and talk about it,is a microcosm of the way most
of spiritual practices,spiritual disciplines, and faith
(09:38):
practice has become in a lot ofour churches. There's not very
many things that we do, like,exclusively corporately, or
like, with an emphasis ofcorporate. Other than like,
gathering for Sunday service andthe things that are in small
(10:01):
groups, most things are reallyrather individualistic in the
way that we kind of like addressand talk about them, I think.
Yeah. So your first question islike, why has it shifted from
being corporate?
Cameron (10:20):
Yeah. I mean, or like when, or Yeah. Like, what do we
lose Mhmm. By practicing fastingmore individualist
individualistically thancorporately? Yeah.
You know, like, what's the powerin corporate versus individual?
Yeah. So that's those are justsome reflection questions or
(10:42):
some things that I've kind ofbeen reflecting on, you know, as
we consider what would we callour community here to fast and
pray for. Mhmm. And how oftenwould we do it?
Mhmm. And how should my own lifeof prayer and fasting be in
(11:10):
relationship to a corporatefast? Mhmm.
Luke (11:15):
Should I be fasting at least in many times?
Cameron (11:19):
Retired today, we're both yawning. Should I be
fasting at least as many timesduring the week individually as
we are corporately? Should itbe? Is there I mean, not that
there's any kind of formulaicanswer to that, but Yeah. Again,
these are all just things thatI'm kind of just trying to
(11:39):
reflect on.
Yeah. I don't know if you haveany thoughts on like the why
corporate versus individual, andwhat maybe we lose or don't
lose, or Yeah. What changesthere?
Luke (11:52):
I think there's like, you know, there's definitely it's
kind of like the same thing wekind of lose when we pray just
individualistically. Like,there's something about being in
prayer and fasting together.Right? Like, there's just
there's more people involved init. And, like, not like I don't
(12:15):
know.
I feel like there's alwaysparticularly when it gets into
fasting, you can get intolanguage that starts to feel
like it's God manipulation orlike like like somehow, like,
oh, this is the fasting is themagic button I push to get God
to answer the prayer the way Iwanted to want him to. And so
(12:38):
that's like, you know, I don'tyou know, without kind of going
that route, there is arelational component of saying,
like, of simply saying, no, God,we we all want this. Mhmm. We're
all unified around this. We doknow that God does value and
honor persistency in prayer,does encourage us in in that,
(13:03):
and that he does respond tothat.
Like, that he does have a heart.And so when we, you know,
together, I I guess it's justkind of the difference between
one of your kids coming up andsaying, hey, we wanna go to
Waldermere versus all of yourkids coming up and saying, dad,
take us to Waldermere orwhatever. Is there is something
(13:26):
about all of us being united inprayer and fasting, particularly
around a certain thing.
Cameron (13:32):
Mhmm.
Luke (13:34):
But I think we've also just generally lost any sense of
corporate identity in in thechurch. This was like a a big
deal. It was something that kindof was was having to wrestle
with when I was in collegebecause there was a lot of
(13:56):
language around the need forcorporate repentance, but a lot
of people were very hesitant tosay, like, well, I don't need to
repent for that because I didn'tdo that. Mhmm. And the question
is, is like, well, no, but like,were you part of the community
that did that?
And does the community need torepent as a whole? And so and
(14:20):
that's really difficult for usto put our heads into, because
we're just like, well, I'm me.Like, I'm I'm fine. Yep. Why
would I need to participate inthis?
Like, just because, like, thecommunity I participate in might
need to, as a whole, repent ofthat. Does that mean I need to
repent of that? Like and sothat's becomes really really
(14:46):
tricky, but I think we've lostthat sense of corporate identity
Mhmm.
And solidarity of understanding that I'm part of
this group. Mhmm. And like, thegroup has this, sense.
Otherwise, there would have justbeen no reason for all of Israel
or all of nations to, like, makethese massive moves of
repentance. It just said, okay,all of you individually go and
(15:11):
repent, and, you know, and thoseof you who don't, that's okay.
But there is this sense of,like, corporate identity Mhmm.
And doing something together.
Cameron (15:21):
Yeah. I I wonder if there just wasn't really a a
sense of autonomy.
Luke (15:27):
Mhmm.
Cameron (15:28):
We've we've we've elevated our autonomous behavior
to the point where religiouscultures before us hadn't done
that as much. There was noindividual
Luke (15:45):
Mhmm.
Cameron (15:46):
Person, lone ranger out there just doing it all on her
own, that their that identitywas wrapped up in, like you
said, this corporate sense ofself. Mhmm. And so, yeah, maybe
it was the king who didsomething he shouldn't have
done, but now the whole nationis called into repentance
because of it. Yeah. Which is Imean, honestly, that is a
(16:06):
difficult concept for even forme to understand.
Luke (16:09):
Yep. It was weird. You know? Yeah.
Cameron (16:19):
So but I agree that there is a fasting corporately
seems to provide a spiritualrallying point
Luke (16:33):
Mhmm.
Cameron (16:33):
So to speak, and focal point for the community's, work.
So if we were to call, thecommunity to fast and to pray
over these two things orwhatever, it would it would
(16:56):
communicate that there's unity,there's focus, there's
togetherness that we and thatwe, as a as a community,
anticipate that God will hearMhmm. That God will show up,
that God will move in a way thatis is powerful. So, I had I have
(17:30):
much, much, much less experiencecorporately fasting than I do
individually fasting.
Luke (17:38):
Mhmm.
Cameron (17:39):
But in the times that I've seen the church fast
together, there's been there hasbeen some shifts Mhmm. Even in
just the way that prayer isapproached Mhmm. In that time
(18:00):
period or after that, or so, youknow, I'm learning in that. I'm
I'm asking God to continue toteach me in that, but it seems
that the more times we can callour people to fast and pray
together, the better. I don'tknow that calling them to fast
(18:22):
more cheapens it.
It's not like a you know, we'veheard some people say things
like I don't know if you'veheard them say it before. I've
heard people say it before.
Luke (18:34):
K.
Cameron (18:37):
Where there's a question of doing communion,
taking communion more than
Luke (18:40):
once a month. Oh, yes. Yes.
Cameron (18:42):
Oh, no. We can't do it more than once a month because
then it becomes less special.
Luke (18:47):
Mhmm.
Right? Yeah.
Cameron (18:51):
There's been a lot of theological rabbit holes that we
could run with that one. But,yeah, I I feel like the same
it's the same with fasting.Like, just because if you were
to call people to fast weekly,regularly Yeah. Does not
diminish the specialness of thething. Right.
(19:12):
Because we don't give the thingmeaning Correct. By the amount
of times we do it or don't doit. Yep. It has meaning all on
its own. Yes.
And the meaning is good. Mhmm.And so, the more you do it,
Luke (19:28):
the gooder it be. The gooder it be. Yeah. Don't I
mhmm. Yeah.
The whole like
Cameron (19:36):
Why don't we go ahead and talk about that, Luke? I can
tell you want to talk about it.
Luke (19:38):
I just like I know that there are churches out there
that like, sometimes they'll docommunion once a quarter,
sometimes just once a year.Mhmm. I know of those churches.
I cannot, for the life of me,understand how I guess I can. I
get I understand.
It's like, we don't want to justit's a we don't want to be
(20:01):
Catholic mentality. They dothings just out of rote, and
it's not meaningful, it's notpurposeful, they do it all the
time, whereas we want it to bespecial. Right? And so, like, by
doing it less, we make it morespecial. But just exactly what
you just said is that's becauseit's those that type of thinking
(20:25):
of saying we need to do it lessto make it more special is
meaning that we're relying uponourselves to bring our emotions,
our, like, own spiritualintention to it, because we have
to bring it all.
Mhmm. Rather than simply saying,yep. Regardless of how I feel
(20:49):
today, I am forgiven, and thisis God's church that I'm with.
I'm part of the body, and I'mgoing to partake in his body,
and that this is going to benourishment for my soul,
regardless of how much I feel ittoday or not. And there's
something to showing up to thatin faith, even when we're not
(21:12):
necessarily like, oh, yes.
Communion is so meaningfultoday. Like, those are great and
good to have, but there's alsosomething saying, showing up and
proclaiming and living a truthregardless of how today feels.
Cameron (21:27):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I I think it was a college
professor, maybe it was one ofmy seminary professors. It was
one of the professors I hadsomewhere down the line.
It was a seminary professor.Yeah. It was, I remember the
class now, who said, he said itkind of tongue in cheek, and it
is, I don't know, it's notcliche, it's actually is true,
but he's like, we don't bringmeaning to the sacraments. Yeah.
(21:51):
Like, the sacraments bringmeaning to us.
So it's not like our doing themor not doing them either negates
their meaning or gives themmeaning. When we do them, they
bring meaning into our lives.They tell us who we are. They
communicate to us Yep. Who weare, and who God is.
Luke (22:12):
They they order us. Yeah. They give us form and shape.
Like, this kind of came out whenI was teaching and talking about
pre written prayers. We got ourWednesday night class talking
about prayer as well, andtalking about, like, the use of
pre written prayers in praying.
And one of the things, you know,because people are just like,
(22:33):
well, what if I don't reallymean that? Like, I'm reading a
prewritten prayer, I'm like, Idon't mean it. I would say,
well, then it's a prayer of,Lord, help my heart to mean
this. This is a prayer of how Iwant my heart to be formed.
Mhmm.
I want to try and aspire towardsthis, and this is me moving my
(22:55):
heart one degree towards that.And I think the same is when it
comes to the sacraments, is thatit's as much about forming you,
and bringing you to that place,not you trying to make the
sacrament into something. It isthat thing, and it's All on its
(23:16):
own. All on its own. Mhmm.
Whether you recognize it or not,and it's trying to form you into
what Christ has called us to be.So, yes, I am not I am not one
who thinks that we need to dothese things, because, like, you
just you wouldn't mostChristians wouldn't apply that
(23:38):
to Bible reading. Mhmm. Right?Oh, read your Bible less.
Cameron (23:43):
Yeah.
Luke (23:44):
Because you want it to be really meaningful at the times
you Yeah. Like and anybody who,like you know that, like, Bible
reading is not more meaningfulthe less you do it. Yeah. Like,
if you're, okay, this is thefirst time I've opened my bible
in a long time, you crack itopen, you're gonna be just like,
what am I doing? Right.
It is something that like, growsand becomes more vibrant the
(24:07):
more you do it. And most ofChristian tradition has shown us
to say that Christians haveregularly fasted once or twice a
week for a very long time.Forever.
Cameron (24:20):
Yeah. Since there's been Christians.
Luke (24:23):
Yep. Or Jews. Or Jews. Yep. It's not just a uniquely
Christian thing.
Mm-mm. And so which was itWesley that said something to
the effect of, like, he wouldn'tordain a pastor who didn't fast
twice a week?
Cameron (24:42):
Yep. Mhmm.
Luke (24:44):
That's like that's like Wesley. Like, he's that's not
terribly long. I'm not talkingabout Martin Luther or No. Some
ancient saint.
Cameron (24:51):
That's really the seventeen hundreds.
Luke (24:52):
Yes. I'm talking about Wesley. Like Yeah. It was so
common practice. He was it wasjust like assumed that, like, if
you're not doing that, like,you're not even not even gonna
think about
Cameron (25:03):
It's so basic.
Luke (25:03):
Making you a pastor. Yeah. It's such a basic thing.
Cameron (25:05):
Mhmm.
Luke (25:06):
But we've kind of lost that somewhere along the road.
Yeah. So yeah. I think I thinkyou should do it regularly, but
intentionally. Right.
Right? Like, that's that's thething is let's do it
intentionally. Yep. Because it'snot I think the temptation might
(25:26):
be in our world, because fastingis vogue in some health circles.
Mhmm.
And so the temptation might beto just like, oh, I'm just
skipping meals. But like, no,what are you fasting for? Not
just from, but for. Yep. And howare you turning your attention
(25:49):
towards God in the middle of allof that?
I think that's just as equallyimportant.
Cameron (25:53):
Mhmm. Yeah. The fasting is feasting model.
Luke (25:57):
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. We
Cameron (26:00):
fasting from food, but we're feasting on God's
presence.
Luke (26:04):
Mhmm.
Cameron (26:04):
Feasting on on God's word. We're feasting on prayer.
We're feasting on, yeah,meditation. So
Luke (26:18):
alright. Well, what else were we talking about?
Cameron (26:22):
I don't remember now.
Luke (26:23):
Well, we we're gonna talk generally about prayer, but I
think we've just about almostdone a whole episode again on
fasting. Close. Close to it.
Cameron (26:33):
Yeah. I would one of the things that I that we didn't
really get to in the series, theprayer series, sermon series,
I'm gonna mention a little bitof it this week, as we close-up
that series is the ispersistency Mhmm. In prayer. And
(26:53):
of the even Jesus' parable onprayer. I think this is the only
parable on is this the onlyparable on prayer?
I doing the persistent widow?
Luke (27:08):
I mean, there's the one that goes alongside of it of the
neighbor knocking on the door.Right.
Cameron (27:12):
It's essentially the same section
Luke (27:14):
of Same section.
Cameron (27:15):
Parables. Yeah. But Yeah. It it's one of the only
not one of the only, but Luke'saccount, for instance, in Luke
18, Luke is like, hey, The said,then Jesus told them a parable
(27:36):
so that they would understandthat they should always pray
Yeah. Never give up, or told hima parable to show them that they
should always pray and not giveup.
And so then he told this parableof the the persistent widow
Mhmm. Who, you know, knocked onthe door of the unjust judge's
(28:00):
house until he gave her, youknow, victory over her adversary
or whatever. And that parable,like many of the parables, often
well meaning people will try toreally stretch the details of
the parable too Yep.
Luke (28:23):
That's really important like, it's total sidebar. That's
a really important note tointerpreting parables.
Cameron (28:30):
Mhmm.
Luke (28:31):
Is that you can over interpret the details.
Cameron (28:34):
Mhmm.
Luke (28:35):
They're not it's not about that. It's about getting the
general
Cameron (28:39):
thrust of minutia.
Luke (28:41):
Yeah. Because you're if you're like, well, who's that
one background character in theparable? You're you're looking
at it wrong.
Cameron (28:48):
Yes. It's not the that wasn't the purpose of parable.
But so he as a, for instance,you can this is actually a good
parable to as an object lessonfor that very thing
Luke (29:05):
Mhmm.
Cameron (29:05):
Is that it becomes, okay, it becomes maybe easy to
take the parable without thequalifier at the beginning of it
Luke (29:15):
Mhmm.
Cameron (29:15):
Where Jesus where Luke says, this is what Jesus was
doing and what He was trying todo. You could take that parable,
and you could really stretch itto a point where it
theologically breaks. Yep.Because, oh, the woman knocking
on the door of the unjust judge,the unjust judge must be God.
Luke (29:32):
Yeah. God is an unjust
Cameron (29:34):
God is unjust, and he just wants us to annoy him.
Right.
Luke (29:38):
God's this angry guy.
Cameron (29:39):
Until he finally is like, fine. I'll do what you
say.
Luke (29:42):
Yeah. He's reluctant.
Right. But that's not But you miss the whole ending
explanation of the passage whenyou do Right.
Cameron (29:52):
And so the parable can be stretched too far, and that,
if you read the parable closely,it's clear that God and the
unjust judge are differentpeople.
Luke (30:04):
Yes. Actually, there's no really, there's no real that's
one of the things, is like a lotof times, parables have like,
the characters can be analogousfor certain individuals. One's
God, one's Israel, or somethinglike that. But in this one, it's
just actually a story thatstands on its own. Mhmm.
(30:25):
It's almost a fable in a sense,more than a parable in the way
that the other ones are a littlebit.
Cameron (30:34):
Yeah. I mean, because, yeah, Jesus flat out says, there
was an unjust God who did notfear God. Yes. Or unjust judge
who did not fear God. Right, andthere was a widow.
Right, there was a widow.
Luke (30:45):
Right. Right? And we're not to necessarily we're to
imitate the widow, but we're notto understand ourselves as how
are we widows, Cameron?
Not the point of the parable. Right.
Cameron (31:01):
And so without the you can take that parable and
stretch it too far to where itbreaks, like we said. Yep.
Graciously, in the word, we havethe explanation of the parable
word at the beginning. Hey,always pray.
Luke (31:18):
Mhmm.
Cameron (31:19):
Don't ever give up. Yep. Do not become weary in
praying. Do not give up. Do notgive up.
Do not give up. And maybe is itlike Luke 11 Yeah. Similar Luke
11, where it's Jesus teaching onthe Lord's prayer and then the
(31:43):
loaf of bread, or the neighborthat needs something for at
bedtime, we have bread.
Luke (31:52):
Mhmm.
Cameron (31:53):
And then the father whose son asks for a fish, we
give him a snake instead. Yeah.And
Luke (32:01):
That doesn't mean God likes to give snakes. Right.
Right. So
Cameron (32:09):
the I don't even remember how I got on this line
of thought, but my point was tosay that we hadn't talked about,
or I hadn't talked about in ourpreaching series lately, about
the importance of persistence.Yeah. And and we, I believe,
(32:36):
have a shortsighted undershortsighted view Mhmm. Of
persistence. Yeah.
Meaning, well, I've asked likethree days in a row. Yeah. Isn't
that persistent enough? Yeah.And I just wonder, like, I just
(33:01):
wonder what persistence reallylooks like in as like kingdom
mindedness.
Yeah. What is the level ofperseverance, endurance,
persistence
Luke (33:13):
Mhmm.
Cameron (33:14):
In prayer that the Lord is calling us to when we when
we're in prayer? Is it like a soI I was reading a commentary the
other day on Luke 11, actually,in this passage of scripture.
(33:34):
Mhmm. And the the passage thatsays, ask and it will be given
to you, seek and you will find,knock and the door will be open
to you. Yeah.
For everyone who asks, receives,everyone who seeks finds, and
all who knocks, the door will beopen. And and in it's like
English version, it's like, welljust ask and you'll receive.
(33:54):
Yeah. Just seek and you willfind just knock and the door
will just be opened. Mhmm.
The English does not do us awhole lot of favors there. No.
Really like the thrust of the ofthe language there is
impersistency. Keep on asking.
Luke (34:11):
Keep
Cameron (34:11):
on Keep on knocking. When you do, you will find.
Yeah. So it it it within itselfis a the the subtext is
persistence. Yeah.
And I if you take if you takethat if you take that seriously,
(34:37):
those are the words of Jesus.Mhmm. I take them pretty
seriously. Mhmm. And thensomeone were to ask you, well,
what is how long doespersistence need to last?
Luke (34:49):
Mhmm.
Cameron (34:50):
How long does persistence in prayer need to
last? I think I would beinclined to say that you that
you pray until you get theanswer. Yeah. Like, there's not
like Until
Luke (35:06):
you find until you answer.
Cameron (35:07):
Until you yeah. Yeah. Until you receive. Until the
door is opened. Until you find.
Yeah. Which is not which istakes an incredible amount of
faith. Mhmm. Just think aboutthe think about the person who
has prayed for thirty years fortheir child or their spouse or
(35:32):
whomever to come to the Lord orMhmm. Be free from this or that
or whatever, and they probablyso many opportunities within
that time period to give upYeah.
In prayer. Just just to stop.Like, well, obviously, I've been
praying for twenty nine years.Yep. And the Lord has not
(35:54):
answered my prayer, but then I'mpraying in my thirtieth year,
and the door opens.
Yeah. And so the point being,like, we're our timeline for
fulfillment
Luke (36:10):
Mhmm.
Cameron (36:10):
Is so much different than the Lord's. Yep. And we
should always pray and nevergive up.
Luke (36:17):
Yeah. I think this is a really interesting train of
thought because it backs upinto, I think, one of the
biggest questions that keepspeople from praying, or one of
the lines of thoughts thatpeople that stop people from
praying, and that is, won'twon't God's will happen anyways
whether I pray or not? Like,it's like, I I that type of
(36:41):
thinking of just saying, well,like, okay, well, I prayed once.
God's will is gonna happenanyway, so I'm, like, why would
I con like, do you I think thatthinking seeps in, and it
discourages us from praying.Mhmm.
What would you say to the personthat's just like, well, Cameron,
I mean, I I prayed for it, andlike, but you know, I'm
(37:02):
surrendered to God's will, andyou know, I'm just not gonna
keep, you know, bugging Godabout it, because I don't wanna
be disrespectful. I wanna besubmissive to His will.
Cameron (37:12):
Yep. I would say that we have made God's will more
formulaic than we haverelational. Mhmm. And that the
idea that God has a will thatlooks like a grand ultimate
(37:34):
complex plan that weaves itselfthroughout history, and that
every every twist and turn ofhistory has been willed, and
ordained, and planned, andexecuted by God
Luke (37:47):
Mhmm.
Cameron (37:47):
Is not really, I think, what we see in scripture. I I I
mean, I suppose you could makesome of those arguments, but
what I think is that God hasdoes God have a will? Certainly,
God has a will. That will, Ithink, is less about the process
(38:12):
and more about the end. I thinkthere is and what I mean by that
is that all all who are calledby His name will be conformed to
the image and likeness of Son.
All those who, God haspredestined all those who have
been called by His name to bepredestined in this Paul in
(38:33):
Ephesians. And so like, I thinkthat God has a will to redeem
creation through His son, JesusChrist.
Luke (38:41):
Mhmm.
Cameron (38:41):
I think God had certainly, was a will to create.
There's a will to sustain. Yep.God does have a will, but like,
does God have a specific willfor like, this situation in my
life, that situation in my life,that situation in my life Mhmm.
(39:04):
That I am praying about?
I don't know that I necessarilybelieve that or get on board I
can get on board with that. Ican get on board with that. I
just don't know that I wouldhold on to that belief super
tightly. Yeah. Because what isclear in scripture is that the
(39:25):
Lord allows himself, even hisvocalized stated plan, to be
changed
Luke (39:34):
Mhmm.
Cameron (39:35):
When someone in intimate relationship with him
asks him.
Luke (39:40):
Yeah. Mhmm.
Cameron (39:43):
So it would be like, well, Moses is the example, as
an an example Yep. Of the Lordwanting to destroy the Israelite
people when they were worshipingthe golden calf. Mhmm. Moses is
like, but yeah, but you don'treally wanna do that. Right?
Because you promised them.
Luke (40:01):
Mhmm.
Cameron (40:02):
You promised these people.
Luke (40:03):
Mhmm.
Cameron (40:04):
And aren't you gonna fulfill your covenant promises,
God? Yep. And what would thewhat are the Egyptians gonna
think? Yeah. You're gonna be alaughing stock to them.
Yep. And so God, it says thatGod it says that God relented.
Yeah. And he and he did not dowhat he said he was going to do.
(40:24):
Yep.
So you could say, well, God'swill, as stated from his very
own mouth to Moses, was todestroy the people, and then
through Moses crying out, Godchanged his will. Mhmm. Okay.
Yep. Maybe God's will is not asstatic as we originally thought.
And then you could just think ofthings like circumstantially,
and maybe even logically, like,I think about is it Peter? Peter
(40:53):
and James in prison. Mhmm. Andit says that the church gathered
all night and prayed Mhmm. Fortheir release, and they and they
were prison doors flinging open.
Yep. Whatever. And so whatexactly what exactly is God's
(41:17):
will in all of that? Was itGod's will that Peter and James
were put in jail? Yeah.
Arrested? Right. Then it also isGod's will to have them
released. Right. Because thepeople prayed.
Luke (41:31):
It puts you in this place of saying, well, if every minute
thing, and every detail thathappens Right. Then God's just
constantly undoing his will.Yeah. Right?
Cameron (41:44):
It Right. It it It's like a cat and mouse game.
Luke (41:47):
Yeah. Well, it becomes this, like
Cameron (41:50):
the
Luke (41:52):
it becomes the chess is it the no, no, no. The poison game
from Princess Brides. Have youseen seen Princess Brides?
Cameron (42:01):
I have not.
Luke (42:02):
Oh, boy. Everyone leave Cameron a lot of hate in the
comments about that. There'sthis moment where the two
characters are in the he's justlike, okay. Pours you know, they
got these two goblets, pourspoison into the two goblets, and
then mixes them around, and thenone puts and says, okay, you get
to choose. I picked I pickedwhich one I put in the poison.
(42:24):
I mixed it around. Mhmm. But youget to choose which one you
drink and which one I drink.Mhmm. And then it's like, well,
naturally, you'd put the poisonin front of me.
But then if I had done that, Iwould expect you to do that. And
so, therefore, I'm going toassume that you put the poison
next to you. But if you knewthat I was that smart, you would
(42:44):
know that
I would figure that out, that you'd
put the point, and you just go back and forth,
and on and on. Right.
Get into this place where you're just, like, trying to do
this brain game with God's willand His sovereignty. One of the
things that was most helpfulfrom one of my professors that
he said is that sovereigntymeans that God is free to do
(43:07):
anything that He will do.
Cameron (43:10):
Mhmm.
Luke (43:11):
Not that God is like not that God we sometimes, we
stretch the theologicalaffirmation to mean that God
authors everything.
Mhmm.
And like, to be clear, neither you or I are deists,
Right? So which is the fancyword for God spun the world on a
(43:36):
top or started the watch, and hewalked away and he doesn't touch
it. That's not to say that's notwhat we believe either. We
believe God's sustaining andkeeping the world running as
well, and that he's activelyinvolved in it and does have
effect on things. But the Bibleseems to invite us into this
dynamic relationship, butsystematic theology seems to try
(43:59):
and get us to take ourselves outof it Mhmm.
By putting us in this place ofwhere we're at odds with God's
will. Mhmm. And God's will is atodds with His own will,
seemingly, at times. Mhmm. And II the way I just say is, like,
we can make these affirmationsthat God is in control of all
(44:20):
things, that God has power overall things, that He holds and
sustains everything together,that He has a will that will be
achieved the way that it's meantto be achieved, but we just
don't know those things.
Mhmm. We can never know thosethings. So let's enter into the
relationship then, and leavethat because we affirm all
(44:42):
those, and then we try and liveour theology out of those. Mhmm.
And you end up in a place whereyou just can't pray.
Cameron (44:48):
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Luke (44:50):
Because you're like, well, I don't want to pray against
God's will. Right. Or whatever.And that's just like, Jesus
never invited us into that.Correct.
That's those are the conclusionsof true conclusions.
Cameron (45:03):
Well, and so it seems like that God invites us
Luke (45:05):
to pray against his will. Yeah. Seemingly. Seemingly.
Seemingly invites us intorelationship to have a
conversation with Right.
Cameron (45:14):
Which is incredible. Like, that's an incredible
mysterious part of prayer to
Luke (45:20):
me. Mhmm.
Cameron (45:21):
I was like, okay, who am I? But I'm we're we're we're
definitely more important to Godthan we think we are.
Luke (45:33):
Yep. Yep. Okay.
Cameron (45:37):
Well, there's another one on prayer and fasting and
something. Something else.Something else for you. Yep.
Hope you enjoyed it.
As always, please comment, like,subscribe, share wherever you
can, and we'll see you on thenext one.
Welcome to the Uncut podcast. I'm Pastor Luke.
Cameron (00:29):
And I am Pastor Cameron.
Luke (00:31):
And this is the Uncut podcast, where we have honest,
uncut conversations about faith,life, and ministry. Well,
welcome back, everybody. We'vebeen last week, we kinda kicked
off sort of a series of episodesdiscussing prayer. Mhmm. And we
(00:52):
talked a lot about fasting.
Cameron (00:55):
Yeah. Almost exclusively last week was about
fasting.
Luke (00:59):
Yeah. Mhmm. It was kind of it we didn't set out necessarily
for that to be the topic, butthat's what it ended up being.
So yeah. I don't know.
I I felt like that was a reallygood discussion to have and
something that's just not asoften talked about.
Cameron (01:18):
Right. Yeah. I I think so too, and I think there were
some good distinctions, at leastfor our community here at
Conduit that we were trying tomake. And in particular, what
fasting I I I think especiallyimportant, a conversation I
don't hear many people having isthe what a substantive
(01:42):
difference is between fastingand abstaining from something.
Mhmm.
And maybe I don't know. Maybemore could be said about that.
Maybe I was one of the churchesthat I follow, I saw that their
pastor had put out that theywere doing that the whole church
(02:04):
was doing a digital fast Yeah.For Lent. Mhmm.
And I had I had feelings aboutthat. And have feelings about
that. And not judgmentalfeelings. Like, I don't wanna I
don't wanna be like I don'twanna turn What's Fasting into
(02:29):
some hypocritical or legalistictype of thing either.
Luke (02:33):
Right.
Yeah. Well, the thing is is that what they're doing the
thing that they are doing is notbad or wrong. It's great. Right?
It's great.
I think for us, it's just beingdistinctive with our language.
Cameron (02:48):
Yeah.
Luke (02:51):
I think we just think that I I think that's just important.
Mhmm. You know? Like, the way wetalk about it. I mean, if you
wanna say you fast fromsomething, like, I guess that's
fine, but like, it just what itdoes is it just waters down the
language around it.
So
Cameron (03:08):
Yeah. Yeah. I I don't and I I do wonder if it if it
actually creates any confusionfor people in the modern world
or not to like say, I'mabstaining from or I'm fasting
from. Maybe it doesn't. Maybelike, you know, trying to talk
about a distinction wherethere's not really a difference.
But the fast like fasting seemsa little bit like it's used just
(03:35):
as a verb.
Luke (03:36):
Mhmm.
Cameron (03:37):
Like, you can just fast anything. Yeah. And I almost
feel in scripture that fasting'smore of like a noun.
Luke (03:46):
Yeah. It's a thing Right.
Cameron (03:49):
That's done. Yep. Not a not a not a action that you take
against anything that you don't,that you want less of. Mhmm. So,
I don't know.
It's probably only aconversation or distinction that
(04:10):
people who think about thisstuff too much are really
having, or wanna have.
Luke (04:14):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's definitely like I do think
it's worth having becausefasting from food has almost
disappeared from the evangelicalchurch. Mhmm. I think that makes
it worth having thatconversation.
Cameron (04:29):
Yeah.
Luke (04:30):
If it was just like, oh, yeah, fasting is like a regular
discipline. It's not commonlyjust like ignored. I think we'd
be just like, oh, well, why arewe making such a distinction?
People fast from food all thetime. It's just that that has
almost what's has happened isthat people are so willing to
(04:52):
fast from anything Mhmm.
Except for food. Mhmm. And then,where the question is, like,
well, are we neglectingsomething particularly important
here Mhmm. By making fastingabout anything but what its
original and current intent issupposed to be around. Mhmm.
(05:13):
Yeah. I do think it's important,but it's also not, like you
said, it's not like, we don'twant to create some sort of
legalistic, like, languagepolice around it. Right. Like,
we're not interested in doingthat.
Cameron (05:27):
No. Especially because, like you said, I think that
people who fast from thingslike, or abstain from see, I'm
even doing it. Abstain fromthings like, you know, digital
media, or their phones, orwhatever. Like, they're doing a
good thing. It's not Yeah.
There's nothing wrong with that.So whether or not we make a big
(05:49):
deal of it or not is kind of ourown issue.
Luke (05:53):
Yes.
Cameron (05:57):
But I think part of the other thing that I've been
thinking about lately withfasting, and this had kind of
come out as a result of I thinkthe last episode, where like, we
were we recorded that episodebefore I preached the sermon on
(06:18):
fasting. Mhmm. Like, well, maybesome of these ideas are gonna
come out in the sermon, andmaybe some of them aren't. I
don't think this idea came outin our conversation on the
podcast last week, but, as Iread more and more and more
accounts in scripture offasting, I was struck by just,
(06:46):
like, the overwhelming theoverwhelming number of accounts
where people fasted together.
Luke (06:56):
Mhmm.
Cameron (06:57):
Where fasting was corporate. It was a group of
people who were called
Luke (07:02):
Mhmm.
Cameron (07:03):
To fasting for fasting and prayer for specific
purposes. Mhmm. And then I kindof reflected. I was trying to do
some reflection on what thecurrent, maybe just in the
evangelical world, makeup offasting is. And it seems to be
(07:28):
excuse me.
It seems to be almostexclusively, like, really,
really highly individualistic.Yeah. It is not a corporate
practice. And by and large.Yeah.
In in practice now, it's not acorporate practice.
Luke (07:48):
Mhmm.
Cameron (07:49):
And what that like, I don't know. Like, I'm thinking
about what gets forfeited? Whyis it a corporate practice,
number one? Yeah. What getsforfeited when it's only
individualistic Mhmm.
If anything? And who should callfast?
Luke (08:12):
Yeah. Yeah.
Cameron (08:14):
And and because that gets down to like the purpose of
the fasting and praying.
Luke (08:24):
Mhmm.
Cameron (08:25):
You know, like when Jehoshaphat, as an example that
I used in in second Chroniclescalled, the nation of Judah to
fast because the Moabites andthe Ammonites were like at the
doorstep, right? He was theking. Yep. So he got to call the
fast type of thing. Yeah.
(08:45):
But I'm assuming that there wasa prophet in the land at that
time. Maybe there wasn't. I'massuming that there was a
prophet in the land at thattime. There's probably a high
priest. There's definitely ahigh priest
Luke (08:57):
Mhmm.
Cameron (08:58):
At that time, it was just Judah. But so just like,
what are the what are thecircumstances of corporate
fasts? How do they get Yeah. Andlike, what does it maybe tell us
about the way in which faith ispracticed now?
Luke (09:17):
Yeah. Well, I think this is interesting, because I would
say that this is probably just amicrocosm. Like, fact that
fasting is mostlyindividualistic in the way we
conceptualize and talk about it,is a microcosm of the way most
of spiritual practices,spiritual disciplines, and faith
(09:38):
practice has become in a lot ofour churches. There's not very
many things that we do, like,exclusively corporately, or
like, with an emphasis ofcorporate. Other than like,
gathering for Sunday service andthe things that are in small
(10:01):
groups, most things are reallyrather individualistic in the
way that we kind of like addressand talk about them, I think.
Yeah. So your first question islike, why has it shifted from
being corporate?
Cameron (10:20):
Yeah. I mean, or like when, or Yeah. Like, what do we
lose Mhmm. By practicing fastingmore individualist
individualistically thancorporately? Yeah.
You know, like, what's the powerin corporate versus individual?
Yeah. So that's those are justsome reflection questions or
(10:42):
some things that I've kind ofbeen reflecting on, you know, as
we consider what would we callour community here to fast and
pray for. Mhmm. And how oftenwould we do it?
Mhmm. And how should my own lifeof prayer and fasting be in
(11:10):
relationship to a corporatefast? Mhmm.
Luke (11:15):
Should I be fasting at least in many times?
Cameron (11:19):
Retired today, we're both yawning. Should I be
fasting at least as many timesduring the week individually as
we are corporately? Should itbe? Is there I mean, not that
there's any kind of formulaicanswer to that, but Yeah. Again,
these are all just things thatI'm kind of just trying to
(11:39):
reflect on.
Yeah. I don't know if you haveany thoughts on like the why
corporate versus individual, andwhat maybe we lose or don't
lose, or Yeah. What changesthere?
Luke (11:52):
I think there's like, you know, there's definitely it's
kind of like the same thing wekind of lose when we pray just
individualistically. Like,there's something about being in
prayer and fasting together.Right? Like, there's just
there's more people involved init. And, like, not like I don't
(12:15):
know.
I feel like there's alwaysparticularly when it gets into
fasting, you can get intolanguage that starts to feel
like it's God manipulation orlike like like somehow, like,
oh, this is the fasting is themagic button I push to get God
to answer the prayer the way Iwanted to want him to. And so
(12:38):
that's like, you know, I don'tyou know, without kind of going
that route, there is arelational component of saying,
like, of simply saying, no, God,we we all want this. Mhmm. We're
all unified around this. We doknow that God does value and
honor persistency in prayer,does encourage us in in that,
(13:03):
and that he does respond tothat.
Like, that he does have a heart.And so when we, you know,
together, I I guess it's justkind of the difference between
one of your kids coming up andsaying, hey, we wanna go to
Waldermere versus all of yourkids coming up and saying, dad,
take us to Waldermere orwhatever. Is there is something
(13:26):
about all of us being united inprayer and fasting, particularly
around a certain thing.
Cameron (13:32):
Mhmm.
Luke (13:34):
But I think we've also just generally lost any sense of
corporate identity in in thechurch. This was like a a big
deal. It was something that kindof was was having to wrestle
with when I was in collegebecause there was a lot of
(13:56):
language around the need forcorporate repentance, but a lot
of people were very hesitant tosay, like, well, I don't need to
repent for that because I didn'tdo that. Mhmm. And the question
is, is like, well, no, but like,were you part of the community
that did that?
And does the community need torepent as a whole? And so and
(14:20):
that's really difficult for usto put our heads into, because
we're just like, well, I'm me.Like, I'm I'm fine. Yep. Why
would I need to participate inthis?
Like, just because, like, thecommunity I participate in might
need to, as a whole, repent ofthat. Does that mean I need to
repent of that? Like and sothat's becomes really really
(14:46):
tricky, but I think we've lostthat sense of corporate identity
Mhmm.
And solidarity of understanding that I'm part of
this group. Mhmm. And like, thegroup has this, sense.
Otherwise, there would have justbeen no reason for all of Israel
or all of nations to, like, makethese massive moves of
repentance. It just said, okay,all of you individually go and
(15:11):
repent, and, you know, and thoseof you who don't, that's okay.
But there is this sense of,like, corporate identity Mhmm.
And doing something together.
Cameron (15:21):
Yeah. I I wonder if there just wasn't really a a
sense of autonomy.
Luke (15:27):
Mhmm.
Cameron (15:28):
We've we've we've elevated our autonomous behavior
to the point where religiouscultures before us hadn't done
that as much. There was noindividual
Luke (15:45):
Mhmm.
Cameron (15:46):
Person, lone ranger out there just doing it all on her
own, that their that identitywas wrapped up in, like you
said, this corporate sense ofself. Mhmm. And so, yeah, maybe
it was the king who didsomething he shouldn't have
done, but now the whole nationis called into repentance
because of it. Yeah. Which is Imean, honestly, that is a
(16:06):
difficult concept for even forme to understand.
Luke (16:09):
Yep. It was weird. You know? Yeah.
Cameron (16:19):
So but I agree that there is a fasting corporately
seems to provide a spiritualrallying point
Luke (16:33):
Mhmm.
Cameron (16:33):
So to speak, and focal point for the community's, work.
So if we were to call, thecommunity to fast and to pray
over these two things orwhatever, it would it would
(16:56):
communicate that there's unity,there's focus, there's
togetherness that we and thatwe, as a as a community,
anticipate that God will hearMhmm. That God will show up,
that God will move in a way thatis is powerful. So, I had I have
(17:30):
much, much, much less experiencecorporately fasting than I do
individually fasting.
Luke (17:38):
Mhmm.
Cameron (17:39):
But in the times that I've seen the church fast
together, there's been there hasbeen some shifts Mhmm. Even in
just the way that prayer isapproached Mhmm. In that time
(18:00):
period or after that, or so, youknow, I'm learning in that. I'm
I'm asking God to continue toteach me in that, but it seems
that the more times we can callour people to fast and pray
together, the better. I don'tknow that calling them to fast
(18:22):
more cheapens it.
It's not like a you know, we'veheard some people say things
like I don't know if you'veheard them say it before. I've
heard people say it before.
Luke (18:34):
K.
Cameron (18:37):
Where there's a question of doing communion,
taking communion more than
Luke (18:40):
once a month. Oh, yes. Yes.
Cameron (18:42):
Oh, no. We can't do it more than once a month because
then it becomes less special.
Luke (18:47):
Mhmm.
Right? Yeah.
Cameron (18:51):
There's been a lot of theological rabbit holes that we
could run with that one. But,yeah, I I feel like the same
it's the same with fasting.Like, just because if you were
to call people to fast weekly,regularly Yeah. Does not
diminish the specialness of thething. Right.
(19:12):
Because we don't give the thingmeaning Correct. By the amount
of times we do it or don't doit. Yep. It has meaning all on
its own. Yes.
And the meaning is good. Mhmm.And so, the more you do it,
Luke (19:28):
the gooder it be. The gooder it be. Yeah. Don't I
mhmm. Yeah.
The whole like
Cameron (19:36):
Why don't we go ahead and talk about that, Luke? I can
tell you want to talk about it.
Luke (19:38):
I just like I know that there are churches out there
that like, sometimes they'll docommunion once a quarter,
sometimes just once a year.Mhmm. I know of those churches.
I cannot, for the life of me,understand how I guess I can. I
get I understand.
It's like, we don't want to justit's a we don't want to be
(20:01):
Catholic mentality. They dothings just out of rote, and
it's not meaningful, it's notpurposeful, they do it all the
time, whereas we want it to bespecial. Right? And so, like, by
doing it less, we make it morespecial. But just exactly what
you just said is that's becauseit's those that type of thinking
(20:25):
of saying we need to do it lessto make it more special is
meaning that we're relying uponourselves to bring our emotions,
our, like, own spiritualintention to it, because we have
to bring it all.
Mhmm. Rather than simply saying,yep. Regardless of how I feel
(20:49):
today, I am forgiven, and thisis God's church that I'm with.
I'm part of the body, and I'mgoing to partake in his body,
and that this is going to benourishment for my soul,
regardless of how much I feel ittoday or not. And there's
something to showing up to thatin faith, even when we're not
(21:12):
necessarily like, oh, yes.
Communion is so meaningfultoday. Like, those are great and
good to have, but there's alsosomething saying, showing up and
proclaiming and living a truthregardless of how today feels.
Cameron (21:27):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I I think it was a college
professor, maybe it was one ofmy seminary professors. It was
one of the professors I hadsomewhere down the line.
It was a seminary professor.Yeah. It was, I remember the
class now, who said, he said itkind of tongue in cheek, and it
is, I don't know, it's notcliche, it's actually is true,
but he's like, we don't bringmeaning to the sacraments. Yeah.
(21:51):
Like, the sacraments bringmeaning to us.
So it's not like our doing themor not doing them either negates
their meaning or gives themmeaning. When we do them, they
bring meaning into our lives.They tell us who we are. They
communicate to us Yep. Who weare, and who God is.
Luke (22:12):
They they order us. Yeah. They give us form and shape.
Like, this kind of came out whenI was teaching and talking about
pre written prayers. We got ourWednesday night class talking
about prayer as well, andtalking about, like, the use of
pre written prayers in praying.
And one of the things, you know,because people are just like,
(22:33):
well, what if I don't reallymean that? Like, I'm reading a
prewritten prayer, I'm like, Idon't mean it. I would say,
well, then it's a prayer of,Lord, help my heart to mean
this. This is a prayer of how Iwant my heart to be formed.
Mhmm.
I want to try and aspire towardsthis, and this is me moving my
(22:55):
heart one degree towards that.And I think the same is when it
comes to the sacraments, is thatit's as much about forming you,
and bringing you to that place,not you trying to make the
sacrament into something. It isthat thing, and it's All on its
(23:16):
own. All on its own. Mhmm.
Whether you recognize it or not,and it's trying to form you into
what Christ has called us to be.So, yes, I am not I am not one
who thinks that we need to dothese things, because, like, you
just you wouldn't mostChristians wouldn't apply that
(23:38):
to Bible reading. Mhmm. Right?Oh, read your Bible less.
Cameron (23:43):
Yeah.
Luke (23:44):
Because you want it to be really meaningful at the times
you Yeah. Like and anybody who,like you know that, like, Bible
reading is not more meaningfulthe less you do it. Yeah. Like,
if you're, okay, this is thefirst time I've opened my bible
in a long time, you crack itopen, you're gonna be just like,
what am I doing? Right.
It is something that like, growsand becomes more vibrant the
(24:07):
more you do it. And most ofChristian tradition has shown us
to say that Christians haveregularly fasted once or twice a
week for a very long time.Forever.
Cameron (24:20):
Yeah. Since there's been Christians.
Luke (24:23):
Yep. Or Jews. Or Jews. Yep. It's not just a uniquely
Christian thing.
Mm-mm. And so which was itWesley that said something to
the effect of, like, he wouldn'tordain a pastor who didn't fast
twice a week?
Cameron (24:42):
Yep. Mhmm.
Luke (24:44):
That's like that's like Wesley. Like, he's that's not
terribly long. I'm not talkingabout Martin Luther or No. Some
ancient saint.
Cameron (24:51):
That's really the seventeen hundreds.
Luke (24:52):
Yes. I'm talking about Wesley. Like Yeah. It was so
common practice. He was it wasjust like assumed that, like, if
you're not doing that, like,you're not even not even gonna
think about
Cameron (25:03):
It's so basic.
Luke (25:03):
Making you a pastor. Yeah. It's such a basic thing.
Cameron (25:05):
Mhmm.
Luke (25:06):
But we've kind of lost that somewhere along the road.
Yeah. So yeah. I think I thinkyou should do it regularly, but
intentionally. Right.
Right? Like, that's that's thething is let's do it
intentionally. Yep. Because it'snot I think the temptation might
(25:26):
be in our world, because fastingis vogue in some health circles.
Mhmm.
And so the temptation might beto just like, oh, I'm just
skipping meals. But like, no,what are you fasting for? Not
just from, but for. Yep. And howare you turning your attention
(25:49):
towards God in the middle of allof that?
I think that's just as equallyimportant.
Cameron (25:53):
Mhmm. Yeah. The fasting is feasting model.
Luke (25:57):
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. We
Cameron (26:00):
fasting from food, but we're feasting on God's
presence.
Luke (26:04):
Mhmm.
Cameron (26:04):
Feasting on on God's word. We're feasting on prayer.
We're feasting on, yeah,meditation. So
Luke (26:18):
alright. Well, what else were we talking about?
Cameron (26:22):
I don't remember now.
Luke (26:23):
Well, we we're gonna talk generally about prayer, but I
think we've just about almostdone a whole episode again on
fasting. Close. Close to it.
Cameron (26:33):
Yeah. I would one of the things that I that we didn't
really get to in the series, theprayer series, sermon series,
I'm gonna mention a little bitof it this week, as we close-up
that series is the ispersistency Mhmm. In prayer. And
(26:53):
of the even Jesus' parable onprayer. I think this is the only
parable on is this the onlyparable on prayer?
I doing the persistent widow?
Luke (27:08):
I mean, there's the one that goes alongside of it of the
neighbor knocking on the door.Right.
Cameron (27:12):
It's essentially the same section
Luke (27:14):
of Same section.
Cameron (27:15):
Parables. Yeah. But Yeah. It it's one of the only
not one of the only, but Luke'saccount, for instance, in Luke
18, Luke is like, hey, The said,then Jesus told them a parable
(27:36):
so that they would understandthat they should always pray
Yeah. Never give up, or told hima parable to show them that they
should always pray and not giveup.
And so then he told this parableof the the persistent widow
Mhmm. Who, you know, knocked onthe door of the unjust judge's
(28:00):
house until he gave her, youknow, victory over her adversary
or whatever. And that parable,like many of the parables, often
well meaning people will try toreally stretch the details of
the parable too Yep.
Luke (28:23):
That's really important like, it's total sidebar. That's
a really important note tointerpreting parables.
Cameron (28:30):
Mhmm.
Luke (28:31):
Is that you can over interpret the details.
Cameron (28:34):
Mhmm.
Luke (28:35):
They're not it's not about that. It's about getting the
general
Cameron (28:39):
thrust of minutia.
Luke (28:41):
Yeah. Because you're if you're like, well, who's that
one background character in theparable? You're you're looking
at it wrong.
Cameron (28:48):
Yes. It's not the that wasn't the purpose of parable.
But so he as a, for instance,you can this is actually a good
parable to as an object lessonfor that very thing
Luke (29:05):
Mhmm.
Cameron (29:05):
Is that it becomes, okay, it becomes maybe easy to
take the parable without thequalifier at the beginning of it
Luke (29:15):
Mhmm.
Cameron (29:15):
Where Jesus where Luke says, this is what Jesus was
doing and what He was trying todo. You could take that parable,
and you could really stretch itto a point where it
theologically breaks. Yep.Because, oh, the woman knocking
on the door of the unjust judge,the unjust judge must be God.
Luke (29:32):
Yeah. God is an unjust
Cameron (29:34):
God is unjust, and he just wants us to annoy him.
Right.
Luke (29:38):
God's this angry guy.
Cameron (29:39):
Until he finally is like, fine. I'll do what you
say.
Luke (29:42):
Yeah. He's reluctant.
Right. But that's not But you miss the whole ending
explanation of the passage whenyou do Right.
Cameron (29:52):
And so the parable can be stretched too far, and that,
if you read the parable closely,it's clear that God and the
unjust judge are differentpeople.
Luke (30:04):
Yes. Actually, there's no really, there's no real that's
one of the things, is like a lotof times, parables have like,
the characters can be analogousfor certain individuals. One's
God, one's Israel, or somethinglike that. But in this one, it's
just actually a story thatstands on its own. Mhmm.
(30:25):
It's almost a fable in a sense,more than a parable in the way
that the other ones are a littlebit.
Cameron (30:34):
Yeah. I mean, because, yeah, Jesus flat out says, there
was an unjust God who did notfear God. Yes. Or unjust judge
who did not fear God. Right, andthere was a widow.
Right, there was a widow.
Luke (30:45):
Right. Right? And we're not to necessarily we're to
imitate the widow, but we're notto understand ourselves as how
are we widows, Cameron?
Not the point of the parable. Right.
Cameron (31:01):
And so without the you can take that parable and
stretch it too far to where itbreaks, like we said. Yep.
Graciously, in the word, we havethe explanation of the parable
word at the beginning. Hey,always pray.
Luke (31:18):
Mhmm.
Cameron (31:19):
Don't ever give up. Yep. Do not become weary in
praying. Do not give up. Do notgive up.
Do not give up. And maybe is itlike Luke 11 Yeah. Similar Luke
11, where it's Jesus teaching onthe Lord's prayer and then the
(31:43):
loaf of bread, or the neighborthat needs something for at
bedtime, we have bread.
Luke (31:52):
Mhmm.
Cameron (31:53):
And then the father whose son asks for a fish, we
give him a snake instead. Yeah.And
Luke (32:01):
That doesn't mean God likes to give snakes. Right.
Right. So
Cameron (32:09):
the I don't even remember how I got on this line
of thought, but my point was tosay that we hadn't talked about,
or I hadn't talked about in ourpreaching series lately, about
the importance of persistence.Yeah. And and we, I believe,
(32:36):
have a shortsighted undershortsighted view Mhmm. Of
persistence. Yeah.
Meaning, well, I've asked likethree days in a row. Yeah. Isn't
that persistent enough? Yeah.And I just wonder, like, I just
(33:01):
wonder what persistence reallylooks like in as like kingdom
mindedness.
Yeah. What is the level ofperseverance, endurance,
persistence
Luke (33:13):
Mhmm.
Cameron (33:14):
In prayer that the Lord is calling us to when we when
we're in prayer? Is it like a soI I was reading a commentary the
other day on Luke 11, actually,in this passage of scripture.
(33:34):
Mhmm. And the the passage thatsays, ask and it will be given
to you, seek and you will find,knock and the door will be open
to you. Yeah.
For everyone who asks, receives,everyone who seeks finds, and
all who knocks, the door will beopen. And and in it's like
English version, it's like, welljust ask and you'll receive.
(33:54):
Yeah. Just seek and you willfind just knock and the door
will just be opened. Mhmm.
The English does not do us awhole lot of favors there. No.
Really like the thrust of the ofthe language there is
impersistency. Keep on asking.
Luke (34:11):
Keep
Cameron (34:11):
on Keep on knocking. When you do, you will find.
Yeah. So it it it within itselfis a the the subtext is
persistence. Yeah.
And I if you take if you takethat if you take that seriously,
(34:37):
those are the words of Jesus.Mhmm. I take them pretty
seriously. Mhmm. And thensomeone were to ask you, well,
what is how long doespersistence need to last?
Luke (34:49):
Mhmm.
Cameron (34:50):
How long does persistence in prayer need to
last? I think I would beinclined to say that you that
you pray until you get theanswer. Yeah. Like, there's not
like Until
Luke (35:06):
you find until you answer.
Cameron (35:07):
Until you yeah. Yeah. Until you receive. Until the
door is opened. Until you find.
Yeah. Which is not which istakes an incredible amount of
faith. Mhmm. Just think aboutthe think about the person who
has prayed for thirty years fortheir child or their spouse or
(35:32):
whomever to come to the Lord orMhmm. Be free from this or that
or whatever, and they probablyso many opportunities within
that time period to give upYeah.
In prayer. Just just to stop.Like, well, obviously, I've been
praying for twenty nine years.Yep. And the Lord has not
(35:54):
answered my prayer, but then I'mpraying in my thirtieth year,
and the door opens.
Yeah. And so the point being,like, we're our timeline for
fulfillment
Luke (36:10):
Mhmm.
Cameron (36:10):
Is so much different than the Lord's. Yep. And we
should always pray and nevergive up.
Luke (36:17):
Yeah. I think this is a really interesting train of
thought because it backs upinto, I think, one of the
biggest questions that keepspeople from praying, or one of
the lines of thoughts thatpeople that stop people from
praying, and that is, won'twon't God's will happen anyways
whether I pray or not? Like,it's like, I I that type of
(36:41):
thinking of just saying, well,like, okay, well, I prayed once.
God's will is gonna happenanyway, so I'm, like, why would
I con like, do you I think thatthinking seeps in, and it
discourages us from praying.Mhmm.
What would you say to the personthat's just like, well, Cameron,
I mean, I I prayed for it, andlike, but you know, I'm
(37:02):
surrendered to God's will, andyou know, I'm just not gonna
keep, you know, bugging Godabout it, because I don't wanna
be disrespectful. I wanna besubmissive to His will.
Cameron (37:12):
Yep. I would say that we have made God's will more
formulaic than we haverelational. Mhmm. And that the
idea that God has a will thatlooks like a grand ultimate
(37:34):
complex plan that weaves itselfthroughout history, and that
every every twist and turn ofhistory has been willed, and
ordained, and planned, andexecuted by God
Luke (37:47):
Mhmm.
Cameron (37:47):
Is not really, I think, what we see in scripture. I I I
mean, I suppose you could makesome of those arguments, but
what I think is that God hasdoes God have a will? Certainly,
God has a will. That will, Ithink, is less about the process
(38:12):
and more about the end. I thinkthere is and what I mean by that
is that all all who are calledby His name will be conformed to
the image and likeness of Son.
All those who, God haspredestined all those who have
been called by His name to bepredestined in this Paul in
(38:33):
Ephesians. And so like, I thinkthat God has a will to redeem
creation through His son, JesusChrist.
Luke (38:41):
Mhmm.
Cameron (38:41):
I think God had certainly, was a will to create.
There's a will to sustain. Yep.God does have a will, but like,
does God have a specific willfor like, this situation in my
life, that situation in my life,that situation in my life Mhmm.
(39:04):
That I am praying about?
I don't know that I necessarilybelieve that or get on board I
can get on board with that. Ican get on board with that. I
just don't know that I wouldhold on to that belief super
tightly. Yeah. Because what isclear in scripture is that the
(39:25):
Lord allows himself, even hisvocalized stated plan, to be
changed
Luke (39:34):
Mhmm.
Cameron (39:35):
When someone in intimate relationship with him
asks him.
Luke (39:40):
Yeah. Mhmm.
Cameron (39:43):
So it would be like, well, Moses is the example, as
an an example Yep. Of the Lordwanting to destroy the Israelite
people when they were worshipingthe golden calf. Mhmm. Moses is
like, but yeah, but you don'treally wanna do that. Right?
Because you promised them.
Luke (40:01):
Mhmm.
Cameron (40:02):
You promised these people.
Luke (40:03):
Mhmm.
Cameron (40:04):
And aren't you gonna fulfill your covenant promises,
God? Yep. And what would thewhat are the Egyptians gonna
think? Yeah. You're gonna be alaughing stock to them.
Yep. And so God, it says thatGod it says that God relented.
Yeah. And he and he did not dowhat he said he was going to do.
(40:24):
Yep.
So you could say, well, God'swill, as stated from his very
own mouth to Moses, was todestroy the people, and then
through Moses crying out, Godchanged his will. Mhmm. Okay.
Yep. Maybe God's will is not asstatic as we originally thought.
And then you could just think ofthings like circumstantially,
and maybe even logically, like,I think about is it Peter? Peter
(40:53):
and James in prison. Mhmm. Andit says that the church gathered
all night and prayed Mhmm. Fortheir release, and they and they
were prison doors flinging open.
Yep. Whatever. And so whatexactly what exactly is God's
(41:17):
will in all of that? Was itGod's will that Peter and James
were put in jail? Yeah.
Arrested? Right. Then it also isGod's will to have them
released. Right. Because thepeople prayed.
Luke (41:31):
It puts you in this place of saying, well, if every minute
thing, and every detail thathappens Right. Then God's just
constantly undoing his will.Yeah. Right?
Cameron (41:44):
It Right. It it It's like a cat and mouse game.
Luke (41:47):
Yeah. Well, it becomes this, like
Cameron (41:50):
the
Luke (41:52):
it becomes the chess is it the no, no, no. The poison game
from Princess Brides. Have youseen seen Princess Brides?
Cameron (42:01):
I have not.
Luke (42:02):
Oh, boy. Everyone leave Cameron a lot of hate in the
comments about that. There'sthis moment where the two
characters are in the he's justlike, okay. Pours you know, they
got these two goblets, pourspoison into the two goblets, and
then mixes them around, and thenone puts and says, okay, you get
to choose. I picked I pickedwhich one I put in the poison.
(42:24):
I mixed it around. Mhmm. But youget to choose which one you
drink and which one I drink.Mhmm. And then it's like, well,
naturally, you'd put the poisonin front of me.
But then if I had done that, Iwould expect you to do that. And
so, therefore, I'm going toassume that you put the poison
next to you. But if you knewthat I was that smart, you would
(42:44):
know that
I would figure that out, that you'd
put the point, and you just go back and forth,
and on and on. Right.
Get into this place where you're just, like, trying to do
this brain game with God's willand His sovereignty. One of the
things that was most helpfulfrom one of my professors that
he said is that sovereigntymeans that God is free to do
(43:07):
anything that He will do.
Cameron (43:10):
Mhmm.
Luke (43:11):
Not that God is like not that God we sometimes, we
stretch the theologicalaffirmation to mean that God
authors everything.
Mhmm.
And like, to be clear, neither you or I are deists,
Right? So which is the fancyword for God spun the world on a
(43:36):
top or started the watch, and hewalked away and he doesn't touch
it. That's not to say that's notwhat we believe either. We
believe God's sustaining andkeeping the world running as
well, and that he's activelyinvolved in it and does have
effect on things. But the Bibleseems to invite us into this
dynamic relationship, butsystematic theology seems to try
(43:59):
and get us to take ourselves outof it Mhmm.
By putting us in this place ofwhere we're at odds with God's
will. Mhmm. And God's will is atodds with His own will,
seemingly, at times. Mhmm. And II the way I just say is, like,
we can make these affirmationsthat God is in control of all
(44:20):
things, that God has power overall things, that He holds and
sustains everything together,that He has a will that will be
achieved the way that it's meantto be achieved, but we just
don't know those things.
Mhmm. We can never know thosethings. So let's enter into the
relationship then, and leavethat because we affirm all
(44:42):
those, and then we try and liveour theology out of those. Mhmm.
And you end up in a place whereyou just can't pray.
Cameron (44:48):
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Luke (44:50):
Because you're like, well, I don't want to pray against
God's will. Right. Or whatever.And that's just like, Jesus
never invited us into that.Correct.
That's those are the conclusionsof true conclusions.
Cameron (45:03):
Well, and so it seems like that God invites us
Luke (45:05):
to pray against his will. Yeah. Seemingly. Seemingly.
Seemingly invites us intorelationship to have a
conversation with Right.
Cameron (45:14):
Which is incredible. Like, that's an incredible
mysterious part of prayer to
Luke (45:20):
me. Mhmm.
Cameron (45:21):
I was like, okay, who am I? But I'm we're we're we're
definitely more important to Godthan we think we are.
Luke (45:33):
Yep. Yep. Okay.
Cameron (45:37):
Well, there's another one on prayer and fasting and
something. Something else.Something else for you. Yep.
Hope you enjoyed it.
As always, please comment, like,subscribe, share wherever you
can, and we'll see you on thenext one.
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