February 17, 2025 • 32 mins
Isn’t God already here? What are we talking about with wanting God’s presence? This episode pastor Cameron and Luke reflect on what what that means and theology behind that language.
- (00:00) - introduction
- (05:47) - The Nature of God's Presence
- (11:26) - Omnipresence vs. Tangible Presence
- (18:54) - God Meets Those Who Want Him
- (27:25) - The Transformative Power of God's Presence
- (31:11) - Worship vs. Worshipping Worship
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Luke (00:06):
Welcome to the.
Cameron (00:10):
Pastor Cameron.
Luke (00:20):
Welcome back. We're in, the last episode kinda kicked
off. We have a couple ofepisodes here talking about
seeking God. Mhmm. Kind of last,last time we talked a lot about,
you know, what does it mean toseek God's face versus his
hands?
Cameron (00:38):
Mhmm.
Luke (00:39):
And we've kinda walked through, like, what is what do
we really mean by that seekinghis character, not just what he
does. Yep. Or just or anotherway of saying that is not even
just seeking his blessings, butseeking him himself. Himself.
And then we kinda started totalk about, like, things that we
(01:02):
seek other than God.
Right. We were talking about,like, I idolatry and what that
could kind of look like and be.And so, kind of alongside of
that, you know, there's a lot ofdifferent language we can kind
of use here. But I feel like,you know, seeking God's face, is
(01:24):
a very biblical way of talkingabout it. I think the more
colloquial or like common waythat we hear talked about in
church and day to day is likeseeking his presence.
Right. And, you know, it's adifferent it's a different type
of language, but, like, youknow, it I think that's I think
(01:49):
we gotta clarify what we mean,though, with that. Like, what is
it that we mean when we say,like
Cameron (01:54):
Seek his presence.
Luke (01:55):
His presence. Like like, we want God to fear.
Cameron (01:59):
God. God here. Yeah. Yep.
Luke (02:02):
And and, like, kind of what is that like? I think the
the shift in the languagebecause it, while it means the
same thing, essentially asseeking God's face, it does
shift it into physicalphysicality for us.
Cameron (02:19):
Mhmm.
Luke (02:19):
Like, I think when we're talking about seeking God's
face, we're kind of in thislike, it's easy to stay in this
kind of like,
Cameron (02:27):
like up there, up there. Like, like we talked
about it as like the wizard ofOz face. You know, he's like,
he's not he's other, which heis, you know, he's separate or
holy, which he is, but thenthere are moments, sometimes
(02:53):
extended moments where he kindof like breaks through the
atmosphere. Yeah. And it nolonger is about like a God
there.
It's now about, like, God Right.Here. And I think the beautiful
(03:18):
witness of scripture is that Goddoes both, that he is
transcendent, and that he isimminent. So he's both. He he is
the he is the transcendent God.
He is holy. He is other. He is,there is no one like him. He his
(03:41):
throne is in heaven. Mhmm.
He's also born. But he came,Emmanuel, God with us, And he's
imminent here. And it feels likeimminence goes even beyond
(04:03):
tangible presence. That thelevel of imminence of god that
god's that god desired for hispresence was indwelling
presence.
Luke (04:16):
Yeah. He tabernacled among us Yeah. And in us.
Cameron (04:20):
That's what like, that's what I'm saying. It's
like his holy spirit is in us.So you wanna talk about, like,
the difference between theotherness and holiness of God
and the indwelling spirit orpresence of God that he is both.
(04:43):
Like, there's both, like,magnificent otherness about him,
and there's also, like, abeautiful presence Yeah. For him
or with him.
Luke (04:56):
Yeah.
Cameron (05:00):
I think that when we talk about God's presence,
wanting God's presence, we weneed to make, distinctions
between those two. Like, when wesay, lord, we want your
presence. We want you here. Weshould be aware or cognizant of
(05:25):
what we're asking with ourmouths, what type of presence we
want, but also what we're askingwith our actions and our hearts,
the type of presence that wewant. Because there's the I
think most most of the time, wehave a we say we want God's
(05:47):
presence.
We are talking about, like, wejust wanna recognize, Lord, that
you are omnipresent, that youare always here.
Luke (06:00):
Man, when I think about just the different type of like
Christianity that I've been likea part of at different points,
like different tribes withinside of Christianity and
theological houses and stuff.But I remember I don't remember
who. I don't remember when, butI remember hearing somebody
being like, oh, I can't standthat song because it's like, we
(06:21):
want you here or whatever, somesong like that. Don't they know
that God's already here? Like,that's a silly song to sing.
Cameron (06:28):
Mhmm.
Luke (06:28):
That, like, we want your presence, Lord. Like Yeah. God's
here. He's omnipresent. That's asilly song to sing.
Cameron (06:34):
Right. Mhmm. Right. But So but that's speaking to That's
speaking to the issue. It's likeso, like, the the the question,
you know, I I one of the one ofthe ways of course, with the
exception of the incarnationwhere god's presence was
actually on Earth, like, I thinkone of the one of the places in
(06:55):
scripture where I it is mostclear to me that God's presence
be presence became imminent isin the Exodus.
Like, the whole book of Exodusis just full with, like, God's
slamming glory and presence allthroughout it. And so you could
take if you take that modern,like, oh, God is always here.
(07:18):
Well, yeah, God was always therewith the Israelite people while
they were in bondage in Egypt.Was God somehow not there? No.
He absolutely was there. Butthere is a decided difference
between him being there in theway he showed up in their
(07:42):
captivity and in the way that heshowed up in their freedom.
Yeah.
Luke (07:50):
Well, there's this fantastic line, which it doesn't
really come across very well inour English, but there's this
moment early on in Exodus. Ithink it's, I don't remember if
it's set in the narration in thepreamble of Exodus or if it's
only said when Moses is havinghis is Moses' meeting God at the
(08:12):
burning bush, but God says,like, I have remembered my
people. Mhmm. Right? Like I'veremembered my covenant with with
your people.
And the reason it doesn't comeacross very well in English is
because for us remembering meanslike, oh, I forgot. Right. Did
(08:34):
God like forget that Israelexisted? No. But what that means
like more practically is he'slike, I have, I have remembered
and I am now coming intofulfill.
Yeah. What I have promised.
Cameron (08:50):
I'm about, it's like a I'm showing up.
Luke (08:54):
I'm showing up. Exactly. Yeah. And the the thing is is
that, you know, the Exodus ispredicted in Genesis. Like,
there's the record of, I thinkit's told to Joseph that the
people would become eventuallycaptives
Cameron (09:14):
Mhmm.
Luke (09:14):
In Egypt and that they would be delivered at some
Cameron (09:17):
point. Mhmm.
Luke (09:18):
So it wasn't a, you know, Exodus was part of the story,
you know, but there but thatbeautiful line of God saying,
like, I remembered, and now I'mcoming. Mhmm. Mhmm. You know? So
so I
Cameron (09:37):
was like, I'm taken by that, so I wanna wanna find it.
But
Luke (09:41):
Well, this tells you how odd cut it is because I didn't
plan I didn't think about thatpassage or look it up ahead of
time.
Cameron (09:50):
Yeah. Yeah. It might be just like an issue with my
translation, but, like, whenMoses at the burning bush, you
know, the lord said, I haveindeed seen the misery of my
people in Egypt. I have heardthem crying out because of their
slave drivers, and I amconcerned about their suffering.
So I have come down to rescuethem from the hand of the
(10:12):
Egyptians and to bring them upout of that land into a good and
spacious land.
I mean, if that's not even ifthat line in and of itself is
enough of an example of, like,there's the omnipresence and
then there's the manifestpresence or the tangible
presence. So I came across this,chart. It's not mine. I didn't
(10:34):
put it together, but that kindof describes the difference
between the omnipresence or thetangible or manifest presence.
So, like, the omnipresence ofGod is biblical, but so is the
tangible presence of God.
Right? See that example. Theomnipresence of God is real,
meaning he is he is indeedpresent everywhere. Right?
(10:58):
That's that's real both inomnipresence and tangible
presence.
It's true to God's nature thathe is omnipresent and tangible.
This is where we begin todiverge, though, because then
there's this question of, like,well, omnipresence means that
god is everywhere, almost ineverything, like a pantheism or
(11:20):
a panentheism.
Luke (11:21):
Was about to say as I We should probably clarify because,
like like, new ageism loves tosay.
Cameron (11:28):
God is everything. God is everything. Yeah. God is not
everything. That the tangiblepresence of God is not that God
is there's, like, this generalsense of God being everywhere.
Understanding the tangiblepresence of God is that God is
not everywhere. God is here.Mhmm. Like, here. Omnipresence
(11:48):
can sometimes be generallytheoretical.
Because there's aphilosophically theoretical
nature to it. But in with atangible presence of God, it's
not just like a tangent it's notlike a theoretical type of
thing. It's transformational.Like, his presence brings
transformation Yeah. In themoment.
(12:09):
Omnipresence of God available toall people. Don't need to be a
follower of God to situnderneath the reality of the
omnipresence of God. But toexperience the tangible presence
of God, it's normally for God'speople, for those who are called
(12:31):
by his name, for those whom heis calling to be his people or
to show up on behalf of him.Right? Tangible presence of God
is normally for his people.
That means the universe thatmeans the omnipresence of God is
a universal fact. The tangiblepresence of God is more
selective. It doesn't show upthe same way to all people. The
(12:56):
omnipresence of God requires noprayer. Yeah.
It it just is. Who he is. It'swho he is. He is everywhere. But
normally the tangible presenceof God requires prayer.
I have heard my people. I haveheard them crying out because of
(13:19):
their slave drivers. I'mconcerned about their suffering,
so I've come down. Crying out,is like the the Hebrew way or
the Old Testament biblical wayof stating prayer. It's the way
in which we see prayer, occur inthe, Old Testament the most, and
(13:40):
it's normally associated withthe people crying out to God to
fulfill his covenant promises.
And so I have heard my peoplecrying out, I'm coming down, and
I'm gonna give them a land. Thecovenant promise that was given
to Abraham. So prayer isrequired normally for tangible
(14:03):
the tangible presence of God toexist. The omnipresence of God
is generally impersonal, but thetangible presence of God is
highly personal. Highlypersonal.
We feel him here. Like, we'reoverwhelmed with his, like, in
(14:27):
the room ness. Omnipresence ofGod is generally abstract.
Tangible presence of God is veryspecific. The omnipresence of
God does not require obedienceusually.
But the tangible presence ofGod, obedience is ruthlessly
required to be because we're inhis presence. We're in the
(14:50):
presence of we're in thepresence of holiness. And so we
I think we must make adistinction even in our prayer
of what we mean when we say,Lord, we want your presence. And
I have tried, I think, in my inmy prayer for our congregation
(15:16):
and the church here to ensurethat I'm always asking for the
right type of priests. Yeah.
Always I I try to like, lord, wewant your present we want your
manifest presence here in thisplace. We want you to show up.
Lord, we wanna see your face.Lord, we know you're here
always, lord. It's not enoughfor us.
(15:37):
I want you here in power and inglory and in holiness. I want
you to be, like, I want I wantit to I I want it to be
selective. I want it to beprayer required. I want it to be
highly personal. I want it to bespecific.
I want obedience to be required.When we pray that, though, it
(16:00):
comes with some it's notinconsequential. There are
things that there areconsequences for that presence,
and the consequences usuallycome to our hearts. What
happens? What what happenseither before or during?
(16:31):
The tangible presence of godcoming. And I think a lot has
been a lot could be said and hasbeen said about that. I was
listening to a podcast the otherday, and they were talking
(16:55):
about, like, defining the keyfactors of when God's presence
comes. They were talking about,like, the context of revival.
Luke (17:09):
Yeah.
Cameron (17:10):
And, like, if you were to analyze all the revivals
where God's presence has come ina really manifested powerful
way, what would be the like,what's the nugget? What's the
thing that brought the presence?And, what you find is that,
(17:41):
there have been those, like,major outpouring of God's
presence and spirit across justabout every Christian faith
tradition. So you would have,like, Anglicans, like high
(18:03):
church, Church of England.Right?
Baptists, charismatics, reformedpeople, highly reformed people,
Catholics even. And they eachprobably have their own, like,
well, why did why why did God'spresence come while we were
(18:25):
seeking holiness? Or why didGod's presence come? Well, we
were all, like, we we we wererepenting. Or why did why did,
God's presence come?
Because we have a high view ofGod's word. Right? Why did God's
presence come? Because we're theCatholic church, the defenders
and deposit with the deposit offaith is with us. And and
everyone, like, kinda has theirown, like, explanation for why
(18:48):
it came.
And then, like, you see, youlook across this you look across
this the board, and you're like,well, what's the common
denominator? There's not there'snot really a theological common
denominator other than God cameto a place where he was wanted.
God came to a place into apeople that wanted him there and
(19:13):
prepared their hearts for hisarrival. So and then did not did
not cower under the under the, Iwill say this, under the
(19:34):
affliction of his presence.Because there's there's some
affliction of his presence thatcomes.
Like, when the Lord's presencecomes powerfully, there is a
necessary, and uncontrollableresponse of repentance.
(20:00):
Confession and repentancebecause there has to be. Like,
if you think about, like, Godyou just think think think about
the the way that our lives, ourour sin profiles would change if
(20:23):
the omnipresence of God wasalways the manifest presence of
God. Like, it wouldn't be about,like,
Luke (20:35):
eve I I think
Cameron (20:38):
you can still choose to sin in the presence of God. I
mean, Satan and the fallenangels are a perfect example.
Right? But, but there there'sthis sense of, like, when God is
in the room per se, that we areundone in our sin and, like, all
(20:58):
of our sin is magnified by thelight of his glory and presence.
And the only only properresponse in that moment is,
Lord, I am a man of uncleanlips, like, laid bare.
Luke (21:18):
For everything else. It's kind of like everything else
loses loses its, like, shineMhmm. Temptation. Mhmm. Things
kinda just fade into thebackground.
Cameron (21:31):
Yep. Yep. Loses its focus, loses its, like,
prominence, its importance, itseverything.
Luke (21:44):
To kind of backtrack a little bit, I was kind of
thinking about because, like,what would be, like, the
examples of like, again, theBible where God's omnipresence
is obviously at work, but thenhis manifest, like the compare
and contrast. And what came tomy mind was, Esther. Esther is
(22:05):
an interesting book of the
Cameron (22:07):
Yeah.
Luke (22:07):
Of the old testament because
Cameron (22:09):
Doesn't mention God, really.
Luke (22:10):
Mention God.
Cameron (22:11):
Yeah.
Luke (22:12):
But he's obviously at work
Cameron (22:13):
Yep.
Luke (22:14):
Throughout the whole book. And it that it it's a it's a
really interesting and thenyou've got like, probably like
the prototypical, like God'smanifest presence would be
Cameron (22:28):
like the burning bush. Yep.
Luke (22:30):
You know, Moses is like, he's talking to a burning bush.
He's taking his sandals off and,like, the bush has not been
consumed and, like, God'spresence is specific, personal.
I'm like Perfect. And so, like,yeah, there's obviously there is
this different different ways inwhich God shows up and works
(22:55):
through all of them. And I thinkwhen you were talking about, God
shows up to a place where he'swanted.
I've said this quote a bunch oftimes, I think by now. And I
(23:15):
used it re just recently in asermon I preached, but like, the
way it was put is just alwayskinda stuck with me. In John
Piper's book, God is the gospel,he early on in the book, he
makes this point. He's like,nobody is going to get into
heaven who is only casuallyconcerned that God also happens
(23:39):
to be
Cameron (23:39):
there. Mhmm.
Luke (23:41):
Like and that's true. Like, the way that we for me,
that hit a light bulb was, like,man, so often the way we talk
about the gospel, we talk aboutheaven and we talk about God and
salvation is like, oh, well, yougotta get saved so you can go to
heaven and have paradise andavoid hell. And, when you talk
(24:06):
about it that way, you're not,you're not, you're not talking
to people about God. You'retalking about like Place. Place,
an avoidance of a thing.
You're not inviting people intoa relationship. And if that's
all you're concerned about is,like, I wanna go to the to the
(24:28):
good place when I die in badplace.
Cameron (24:31):
Yeah.
Luke (24:32):
Then, like, do you actually then?
Cameron (24:37):
Like Yeah. It's like Like it's like heaven is not a
place.
Luke (24:41):
Right.
Cameron (24:43):
I mean, it is.
Luke (24:44):
But it's But But why is it heaven? Is it heaven because
it's heaven, or is it heavenbecause that's where God is. And
you're not gonna show up andyou're gonna be just like, oh,
yeah. God's over there. Yeah.
Cameron (24:56):
So Me. Shoot. I forgot. I Yeah.
Luke (25:01):
Uh-huh. Right.
Cameron (25:02):
Yep.
Luke (25:03):
Right. You know, or the Simpsons. There's a Simpsons
episode where, like, I think,Bart and Homer become Catholic.
And then, the rest of the familystay Protestant and, like, they
go to heaven and, like, Bart andHomer go to Catholic heaven,
(25:25):
which is like, you want fund inProtestant heaven and something
like that. Like, it's justridiculous, but that's kind of
the way we to talk about it, youknow?
But that that's not the point.That's not the point of the
gospel. That's not what sosalvation is is not this
intangible thing that we'regiven.
Cameron (25:45):
Mhmm.
Luke (25:45):
It's a relationship, a covenant that we're invited
into.
Cameron (25:50):
Yeah. It's God himself.
Luke (25:52):
It's God himself. Yep. God is the gift Mhmm.
Cameron (25:55):
That we're given. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. So one of our
questions kind of, like, todiscuss was how do we know when
God is present?
Right. And the we we kind oftouched on some of those some of
those topics, but, like, I thinkwe know when God is present when
(26:18):
we cannot stand our own sin andmust confess, repent. I think we
know that God is present whenthe only thing that we can do is
worship. Mhmm. Like, it justbecomes the it becomes the, the
(26:39):
hunger of our soul.
It becomes like the the thingthat we must do. Like, God is
present in a place when, we knowthat God is present in a place
when there can, like, well,where where worship is
happening. He inhabits thepraises of his people is what
(26:59):
the word says. And I think weknow that God is present when we
see lives that are beingtransformed. It's kind of
similar to that quote you sharedfrom Piper that no one who is no
one in heaven is gonna becasually concerned that God's
presence is going, to be thereis in a similar way, like, no
(27:20):
one in the presence of God willremain the same.
Like, they will be changed.Like, there will be
transformation. That's why wepray for the presence of God to
come. We we will we will situnder the affliction of
confession and repentancebecause it is like in his
(27:44):
presence that transfer we aretransformed. That's why but we
can I I I maybe I feel a littlecheck-in my spirit here that we
can even we that can evenbecome, that can even become
(28:05):
sort of a, a false idol of God'spresence?
Is, Lord, we want you herebecause we want to be
transformed. So it becomes nowabout something that we want out
of the encounter rather thanjust we want you here because we
want you here.
Luke (28:29):
This was a lesson I, read practically, when I was I was
involved in a ministry that wasI don't know if they would if we
could even call it a ministrybecause it was so unofficial.
But it was, you know, group ofyoung people, with a few
dedicated adults who, you know,wanted to worship, wanted to
(28:52):
seek God, wanted to dodiscipleship. And, like, God was
showing up, started to show upin some really cool ways, was
drawing people to him. Kids whojust were like, not interested
in God would show up and, theywould come back a week later
saying like, God has beenpushing on me all week to come
(29:15):
back here. And I haven't reallytalked to anybody from from that
group in a long time because itkinda fell apart.
And I don't know how they wouldall make sense of what happened
and what didn't happen. But mysense that I got from it was we
(29:39):
made this subtle shift where wewere more excited about the
dynamic worship and what washappening when God was showing
up and the emotions surroundingall of it and how cool this was
and where this might lead us andwhat we might do. Maybe we'll
(30:01):
become a band, you know, likeall this stuff. And as soon as
that shift happened, it stopped.Like, the like, it started to
become more about, like,disunity came, and, like and I'm
(30:28):
not saying that, like, I wasimpervious of it at this time.
Like, I was 22, 20 three orsomething like that when this
was, when I was involved inthis. And so, but it was like a,
it was a really afterwards, itwas really clear to me that we
had stopped worshiping God andwe had started worshiping
(30:48):
worship
Cameron (30:49):
at some point. Mhmm.
Luke (30:51):
And, like, it's a fax and how it felt and what it looked
like.
Cameron (30:54):
Yep.
Luke (30:55):
And that's, like, seems really silly to say, like, you
worship to worship, but I'mlike, that's what happened.
Cameron (31:03):
Mhmm.
Luke (31:04):
And it was so it was such a subtle shift, but it it
affected everything.
Cameron (31:11):
That's the the first question from our the last
episode that we recorded is whatare some of the things that we
seek as substitutes for God'spresence? Yeah. You know, that
could be one of them. Soalright. Well, if you enjoyed
this conversation or feel likeyou want more of this
conversation, you can, tune infor the next episode.
I think we're gonna try andcontinue it on here. Talked in
(31:37):
our last episode as well aboutthat, about this topic in
particular, the presence of God,the face of God, what does it
mean to be in his presence. So,we don't have all the answers.
We're not, I'm not an expert in,revival history or anything like
that. I have a I have a I feellike I'm I have a new birth
(32:00):
passion for it.
But, we wanna seek his face viapeople who pursue his presence.
Thanks for listening, and we'llcatch you in the next one.
Welcome to the.
Cameron (00:10):
Pastor Cameron.
Luke (00:20):
Welcome back. We're in, the last episode kinda kicked
off. We have a couple ofepisodes here talking about
seeking God. Mhmm. Kind of last,last time we talked a lot about,
you know, what does it mean toseek God's face versus his
hands?
Cameron (00:38):
Mhmm.
Luke (00:39):
And we've kinda walked through, like, what is what do
we really mean by that seekinghis character, not just what he
does. Yep. Or just or anotherway of saying that is not even
just seeking his blessings, butseeking him himself. Himself.
And then we kinda started totalk about, like, things that we
(01:02):
seek other than God.
Right. We were talking about,like, I idolatry and what that
could kind of look like and be.And so, kind of alongside of
that, you know, there's a lot ofdifferent language we can kind
of use here. But I feel like,you know, seeking God's face, is
(01:24):
a very biblical way of talkingabout it. I think the more
colloquial or like common waythat we hear talked about in
church and day to day is likeseeking his presence.
Right. And, you know, it's adifferent it's a different type
of language, but, like, youknow, it I think that's I think
(01:49):
we gotta clarify what we mean,though, with that. Like, what is
it that we mean when we say,like
Cameron (01:54):
Seek his presence.
Luke (01:55):
His presence. Like like, we want God to fear.
Cameron (01:59):
God. God here. Yeah. Yep.
Luke (02:02):
And and, like, kind of what is that like? I think the
the shift in the languagebecause it, while it means the
same thing, essentially asseeking God's face, it does
shift it into physicalphysicality for us.
Cameron (02:19):
Mhmm.
Luke (02:19):
Like, I think when we're talking about seeking God's
face, we're kind of in thislike, it's easy to stay in this
kind of like,
Cameron (02:27):
like up there, up there. Like, like we talked
about it as like the wizard ofOz face. You know, he's like,
he's not he's other, which heis, you know, he's separate or
holy, which he is, but thenthere are moments, sometimes
(02:53):
extended moments where he kindof like breaks through the
atmosphere. Yeah. And it nolonger is about like a God
there.
It's now about, like, God Right.Here. And I think the beautiful
(03:18):
witness of scripture is that Goddoes both, that he is
transcendent, and that he isimminent. So he's both. He he is
the he is the transcendent God.
He is holy. He is other. He is,there is no one like him. He his
(03:41):
throne is in heaven. Mhmm.
He's also born. But he came,Emmanuel, God with us, And he's
imminent here. And it feels likeimminence goes even beyond
(04:03):
tangible presence. That thelevel of imminence of god that
god's that god desired for hispresence was indwelling
presence.
Luke (04:16):
Yeah. He tabernacled among us Yeah. And in us.
Cameron (04:20):
That's what like, that's what I'm saying. It's
like his holy spirit is in us.So you wanna talk about, like,
the difference between theotherness and holiness of God
and the indwelling spirit orpresence of God that he is both.
(04:43):
Like, there's both, like,magnificent otherness about him,
and there's also, like, abeautiful presence Yeah. For him
or with him.
Luke (04:56):
Yeah.
Cameron (05:00):
I think that when we talk about God's presence,
wanting God's presence, we weneed to make, distinctions
between those two. Like, when wesay, lord, we want your
presence. We want you here. Weshould be aware or cognizant of
(05:25):
what we're asking with ourmouths, what type of presence we
want, but also what we're askingwith our actions and our hearts,
the type of presence that wewant. Because there's the I
think most most of the time, wehave a we say we want God's
(05:47):
presence.
We are talking about, like, wejust wanna recognize, Lord, that
you are omnipresent, that youare always here.
Luke (06:00):
Man, when I think about just the different type of like
Christianity that I've been likea part of at different points,
like different tribes withinside of Christianity and
theological houses and stuff.But I remember I don't remember
who. I don't remember when, butI remember hearing somebody
being like, oh, I can't standthat song because it's like, we
(06:21):
want you here or whatever, somesong like that. Don't they know
that God's already here? Like,that's a silly song to sing.
Cameron (06:28):
Mhmm.
Luke (06:28):
That, like, we want your presence, Lord. Like Yeah. God's
here. He's omnipresent. That's asilly song to sing.
Cameron (06:34):
Right. Mhmm. Right. But So but that's speaking to That's
speaking to the issue. It's likeso, like, the the the question,
you know, I I one of the one ofthe ways of course, with the
exception of the incarnationwhere god's presence was
actually on Earth, like, I thinkone of the one of the places in
(06:55):
scripture where I it is mostclear to me that God's presence
be presence became imminent isin the Exodus.
Like, the whole book of Exodusis just full with, like, God's
slamming glory and presence allthroughout it. And so you could
take if you take that modern,like, oh, God is always here.
(07:18):
Well, yeah, God was always therewith the Israelite people while
they were in bondage in Egypt.Was God somehow not there? No.
He absolutely was there. Butthere is a decided difference
between him being there in theway he showed up in their
(07:42):
captivity and in the way that heshowed up in their freedom.
Yeah.
Luke (07:50):
Well, there's this fantastic line, which it doesn't
really come across very well inour English, but there's this
moment early on in Exodus. Ithink it's, I don't remember if
it's set in the narration in thepreamble of Exodus or if it's
only said when Moses is havinghis is Moses' meeting God at the
(08:12):
burning bush, but God says,like, I have remembered my
people. Mhmm. Right? Like I'veremembered my covenant with with
your people.
And the reason it doesn't comeacross very well in English is
because for us remembering meanslike, oh, I forgot. Right. Did
(08:34):
God like forget that Israelexisted? No. But what that means
like more practically is he'slike, I have, I have remembered
and I am now coming intofulfill.
Yeah. What I have promised.
Cameron (08:50):
I'm about, it's like a I'm showing up.
Luke (08:54):
I'm showing up. Exactly. Yeah. And the the thing is is
that, you know, the Exodus ispredicted in Genesis. Like,
there's the record of, I thinkit's told to Joseph that the
people would become eventuallycaptives
Cameron (09:14):
Mhmm.
Luke (09:14):
In Egypt and that they would be delivered at some
Cameron (09:17):
point. Mhmm.
Luke (09:18):
So it wasn't a, you know, Exodus was part of the story,
you know, but there but thatbeautiful line of God saying,
like, I remembered, and now I'mcoming. Mhmm. Mhmm. You know? So
so I
Cameron (09:37):
was like, I'm taken by that, so I wanna wanna find it.
But
Luke (09:41):
Well, this tells you how odd cut it is because I didn't
plan I didn't think about thatpassage or look it up ahead of
time.
Cameron (09:50):
Yeah. Yeah. It might be just like an issue with my
translation, but, like, whenMoses at the burning bush, you
know, the lord said, I haveindeed seen the misery of my
people in Egypt. I have heardthem crying out because of their
slave drivers, and I amconcerned about their suffering.
So I have come down to rescuethem from the hand of the
(10:12):
Egyptians and to bring them upout of that land into a good and
spacious land.
I mean, if that's not even ifthat line in and of itself is
enough of an example of, like,there's the omnipresence and
then there's the manifestpresence or the tangible
presence. So I came across this,chart. It's not mine. I didn't
(10:34):
put it together, but that kindof describes the difference
between the omnipresence or thetangible or manifest presence.
So, like, the omnipresence ofGod is biblical, but so is the
tangible presence of God.
Right? See that example. Theomnipresence of God is real,
meaning he is he is indeedpresent everywhere. Right?
(10:58):
That's that's real both inomnipresence and tangible
presence.
It's true to God's nature thathe is omnipresent and tangible.
This is where we begin todiverge, though, because then
there's this question of, like,well, omnipresence means that
god is everywhere, almost ineverything, like a pantheism or
(11:20):
a panentheism.
Luke (11:21):
Was about to say as I We should probably clarify because,
like like, new ageism loves tosay.
Cameron (11:28):
God is everything. God is everything. Yeah. God is not
everything. That the tangiblepresence of God is not that God
is there's, like, this generalsense of God being everywhere.
Understanding the tangiblepresence of God is that God is
not everywhere. God is here.Mhmm. Like, here. Omnipresence
(11:48):
can sometimes be generallytheoretical.
Because there's aphilosophically theoretical
nature to it. But in with atangible presence of God, it's
not just like a tangent it's notlike a theoretical type of
thing. It's transformational.Like, his presence brings
transformation Yeah. In themoment.
(12:09):
Omnipresence of God available toall people. Don't need to be a
follower of God to situnderneath the reality of the
omnipresence of God. But toexperience the tangible presence
of God, it's normally for God'speople, for those who are called
(12:31):
by his name, for those whom heis calling to be his people or
to show up on behalf of him.Right? Tangible presence of God
is normally for his people.
That means the universe thatmeans the omnipresence of God is
a universal fact. The tangiblepresence of God is more
selective. It doesn't show upthe same way to all people. The
(12:56):
omnipresence of God requires noprayer. Yeah.
It it just is. Who he is. It'swho he is. He is everywhere. But
normally the tangible presenceof God requires prayer.
I have heard my people. I haveheard them crying out because of
(13:19):
their slave drivers. I'mconcerned about their suffering,
so I've come down. Crying out,is like the the Hebrew way or
the Old Testament biblical wayof stating prayer. It's the way
in which we see prayer, occur inthe, Old Testament the most, and
(13:40):
it's normally associated withthe people crying out to God to
fulfill his covenant promises.
And so I have heard my peoplecrying out, I'm coming down, and
I'm gonna give them a land. Thecovenant promise that was given
to Abraham. So prayer isrequired normally for tangible
(14:03):
the tangible presence of God toexist. The omnipresence of God
is generally impersonal, but thetangible presence of God is
highly personal. Highlypersonal.
We feel him here. Like, we'reoverwhelmed with his, like, in
(14:27):
the room ness. Omnipresence ofGod is generally abstract.
Tangible presence of God is veryspecific. The omnipresence of
God does not require obedienceusually.
But the tangible presence ofGod, obedience is ruthlessly
required to be because we're inhis presence. We're in the
(14:50):
presence of we're in thepresence of holiness. And so we
I think we must make adistinction even in our prayer
of what we mean when we say,Lord, we want your presence. And
I have tried, I think, in my inmy prayer for our congregation
(15:16):
and the church here to ensurethat I'm always asking for the
right type of priests. Yeah.
Always I I try to like, lord, wewant your present we want your
manifest presence here in thisplace. We want you to show up.
Lord, we wanna see your face.Lord, we know you're here
always, lord. It's not enoughfor us.
(15:37):
I want you here in power and inglory and in holiness. I want
you to be, like, I want I wantit to I I want it to be
selective. I want it to beprayer required. I want it to be
highly personal. I want it to bespecific.
I want obedience to be required.When we pray that, though, it
(16:00):
comes with some it's notinconsequential. There are
things that there areconsequences for that presence,
and the consequences usuallycome to our hearts. What
happens? What what happenseither before or during?
(16:31):
The tangible presence of godcoming. And I think a lot has
been a lot could be said and hasbeen said about that. I was
listening to a podcast the otherday, and they were talking
(16:55):
about, like, defining the keyfactors of when God's presence
comes. They were talking about,like, the context of revival.
Luke (17:09):
Yeah.
Cameron (17:10):
And, like, if you were to analyze all the revivals
where God's presence has come ina really manifested powerful
way, what would be the like,what's the nugget? What's the
thing that brought the presence?And, what you find is that,
(17:41):
there have been those, like,major outpouring of God's
presence and spirit across justabout every Christian faith
tradition. So you would have,like, Anglicans, like high
(18:03):
church, Church of England.Right?
Baptists, charismatics, reformedpeople, highly reformed people,
Catholics even. And they eachprobably have their own, like,
well, why did why why did God'spresence come while we were
(18:25):
seeking holiness? Or why didGod's presence come? Well, we
were all, like, we we we wererepenting. Or why did why did,
God's presence come?
Because we have a high view ofGod's word. Right? Why did God's
presence come? Because we're theCatholic church, the defenders
and deposit with the deposit offaith is with us. And and
everyone, like, kinda has theirown, like, explanation for why
(18:48):
it came.
And then, like, you see, youlook across this you look across
this the board, and you're like,well, what's the common
denominator? There's not there'snot really a theological common
denominator other than God cameto a place where he was wanted.
God came to a place into apeople that wanted him there and
(19:13):
prepared their hearts for hisarrival. So and then did not did
not cower under the under the, Iwill say this, under the
(19:34):
affliction of his presence.Because there's there's some
affliction of his presence thatcomes.
Like, when the Lord's presencecomes powerfully, there is a
necessary, and uncontrollableresponse of repentance.
(20:00):
Confession and repentancebecause there has to be. Like,
if you think about, like, Godyou just think think think about
the the way that our lives, ourour sin profiles would change if
(20:23):
the omnipresence of God wasalways the manifest presence of
God. Like, it wouldn't be about,like,
Luke (20:35):
eve I I think
Cameron (20:38):
you can still choose to sin in the presence of God. I
mean, Satan and the fallenangels are a perfect example.
Right? But, but there there'sthis sense of, like, when God is
in the room per se, that we areundone in our sin and, like, all
(20:58):
of our sin is magnified by thelight of his glory and presence.
And the only only properresponse in that moment is,
Lord, I am a man of uncleanlips, like, laid bare.
Luke (21:18):
For everything else. It's kind of like everything else
loses loses its, like, shineMhmm. Temptation. Mhmm. Things
kinda just fade into thebackground.
Cameron (21:31):
Yep. Yep. Loses its focus, loses its, like,
prominence, its importance, itseverything.
Luke (21:44):
To kind of backtrack a little bit, I was kind of
thinking about because, like,what would be, like, the
examples of like, again, theBible where God's omnipresence
is obviously at work, but thenhis manifest, like the compare
and contrast. And what came tomy mind was, Esther. Esther is
(22:05):
an interesting book of the
Cameron (22:07):
Yeah.
Luke (22:07):
Of the old testament because
Cameron (22:09):
Doesn't mention God, really.
Luke (22:10):
Mention God.
Cameron (22:11):
Yeah.
Luke (22:12):
But he's obviously at work
Cameron (22:13):
Yep.
Luke (22:14):
Throughout the whole book. And it that it it's a it's a
really interesting and thenyou've got like, probably like
the prototypical, like God'smanifest presence would be
Cameron (22:28):
like the burning bush. Yep.
Luke (22:30):
You know, Moses is like, he's talking to a burning bush.
He's taking his sandals off and,like, the bush has not been
consumed and, like, God'spresence is specific, personal.
I'm like Perfect. And so, like,yeah, there's obviously there is
this different different ways inwhich God shows up and works
(22:55):
through all of them. And I thinkwhen you were talking about, God
shows up to a place where he'swanted.
I've said this quote a bunch oftimes, I think by now. And I
(23:15):
used it re just recently in asermon I preached, but like, the
way it was put is just alwayskinda stuck with me. In John
Piper's book, God is the gospel,he early on in the book, he
makes this point. He's like,nobody is going to get into
heaven who is only casuallyconcerned that God also happens
(23:39):
to be
Cameron (23:39):
there. Mhmm.
Luke (23:41):
Like and that's true. Like, the way that we for me,
that hit a light bulb was, like,man, so often the way we talk
about the gospel, we talk aboutheaven and we talk about God and
salvation is like, oh, well, yougotta get saved so you can go to
heaven and have paradise andavoid hell. And, when you talk
(24:06):
about it that way, you're not,you're not, you're not talking
to people about God. You'retalking about like Place. Place,
an avoidance of a thing.
You're not inviting people intoa relationship. And if that's
all you're concerned about is,like, I wanna go to the to the
(24:28):
good place when I die in badplace.
Cameron (24:31):
Yeah.
Luke (24:32):
Then, like, do you actually then?
Cameron (24:37):
Like Yeah. It's like Like it's like heaven is not a
place.
Luke (24:41):
Right.
Cameron (24:43):
I mean, it is.
Luke (24:44):
But it's But But why is it heaven? Is it heaven because
it's heaven, or is it heavenbecause that's where God is. And
you're not gonna show up andyou're gonna be just like, oh,
yeah. God's over there. Yeah.
Cameron (24:56):
So Me. Shoot. I forgot. I Yeah.
Luke (25:01):
Uh-huh. Right.
Cameron (25:02):
Yep.
Luke (25:03):
Right. You know, or the Simpsons. There's a Simpsons
episode where, like, I think,Bart and Homer become Catholic.
And then, the rest of the familystay Protestant and, like, they
go to heaven and, like, Bart andHomer go to Catholic heaven,
(25:25):
which is like, you want fund inProtestant heaven and something
like that. Like, it's justridiculous, but that's kind of
the way we to talk about it, youknow?
But that that's not the point.That's not the point of the
gospel. That's not what sosalvation is is not this
intangible thing that we'regiven.
Cameron (25:45):
Mhmm.
Luke (25:45):
It's a relationship, a covenant that we're invited
into.
Cameron (25:50):
Yeah. It's God himself.
Luke (25:52):
It's God himself. Yep. God is the gift Mhmm.
Cameron (25:55):
That we're given. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. So one of our
questions kind of, like, todiscuss was how do we know when
God is present?
Right. And the we we kind oftouched on some of those some of
those topics, but, like, I thinkwe know when God is present when
(26:18):
we cannot stand our own sin andmust confess, repent. I think we
know that God is present whenthe only thing that we can do is
worship. Mhmm. Like, it justbecomes the it becomes the, the
(26:39):
hunger of our soul.
It becomes like the the thingthat we must do. Like, God is
present in a place when, we knowthat God is present in a place
when there can, like, well,where where worship is
happening. He inhabits thepraises of his people is what
(26:59):
the word says. And I think weknow that God is present when we
see lives that are beingtransformed. It's kind of
similar to that quote you sharedfrom Piper that no one who is no
one in heaven is gonna becasually concerned that God's
presence is going, to be thereis in a similar way, like, no
(27:20):
one in the presence of God willremain the same.
Like, they will be changed.Like, there will be
transformation. That's why wepray for the presence of God to
come. We we will we will situnder the affliction of
confession and repentancebecause it is like in his
(27:44):
presence that transfer we aretransformed. That's why but we
can I I I maybe I feel a littlecheck-in my spirit here that we
can even we that can evenbecome, that can even become
(28:05):
sort of a, a false idol of God'spresence?
Is, Lord, we want you herebecause we want to be
transformed. So it becomes nowabout something that we want out
of the encounter rather thanjust we want you here because we
want you here.
Luke (28:29):
This was a lesson I, read practically, when I was I was
involved in a ministry that wasI don't know if they would if we
could even call it a ministrybecause it was so unofficial.
But it was, you know, group ofyoung people, with a few
dedicated adults who, you know,wanted to worship, wanted to
(28:52):
seek God, wanted to dodiscipleship. And, like, God was
showing up, started to show upin some really cool ways, was
drawing people to him. Kids whojust were like, not interested
in God would show up and, theywould come back a week later
saying like, God has beenpushing on me all week to come
(29:15):
back here. And I haven't reallytalked to anybody from from that
group in a long time because itkinda fell apart.
And I don't know how they wouldall make sense of what happened
and what didn't happen. But mysense that I got from it was we
(29:39):
made this subtle shift where wewere more excited about the
dynamic worship and what washappening when God was showing
up and the emotions surroundingall of it and how cool this was
and where this might lead us andwhat we might do. Maybe we'll
(30:01):
become a band, you know, likeall this stuff. And as soon as
that shift happened, it stopped.Like, the like, it started to
become more about, like,disunity came, and, like and I'm
(30:28):
not saying that, like, I wasimpervious of it at this time.
Like, I was 22, 20 three orsomething like that when this
was, when I was involved inthis. And so, but it was like a,
it was a really afterwards, itwas really clear to me that we
had stopped worshiping God andwe had started worshiping
(30:48):
worship
Cameron (30:49):
at some point. Mhmm.
Luke (30:51):
And, like, it's a fax and how it felt and what it looked
like.
Cameron (30:54):
Yep.
Luke (30:55):
And that's, like, seems really silly to say, like, you
worship to worship, but I'mlike, that's what happened.
Cameron (31:03):
Mhmm.
Luke (31:04):
And it was so it was such a subtle shift, but it it
affected everything.
Cameron (31:11):
That's the the first question from our the last
episode that we recorded is whatare some of the things that we
seek as substitutes for God'spresence? Yeah. You know, that
could be one of them. Soalright. Well, if you enjoyed
this conversation or feel likeyou want more of this
conversation, you can, tune infor the next episode.
I think we're gonna try andcontinue it on here. Talked in
(31:37):
our last episode as well aboutthat, about this topic in
particular, the presence of God,the face of God, what does it
mean to be in his presence. So,we don't have all the answers.
We're not, I'm not an expert in,revival history or anything like
that. I have a I have a I feellike I'm I have a new birth
(32:00):
passion for it.
But, we wanna seek his face viapeople who pursue his presence.
Thanks for listening, and we'llcatch you in the next one.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com