November 25, 2024 • 48 mins
Your marriage is one of your most important relationships. It's easy to slip into patterns that slowly tear down rather than build up. In this episode pastor Cameron and Luke discuss 4 patterns that cause serious trouble in your marriage.
- (00:00) - Welcome to the Uncut Podcast
- (11:05) - Patterns to Avoid in Marriage
- (11:47) - Pattern #1
- (20:47) - Pattern #2
- (22:43) - Pattern #3
- (38:07) - Pattern #4
- (48:03) - Patterns of Connection Ahead
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cameron (00:00):
If you are fine with having a miserable marriage and
probably letting bitternesserode the foundation to the
point of separation and divorceMhmm. Then just go ahead and
don't work on the decisions toforgive. Welcome to The Uncut
(00:20):
Podcast.
Luke (00:21):
I'm pastor Luke. I'm pastor Gary. And this is The
Uncut Podcast where we havehonest, uncut conversations
about faith, life, and history.Oh, Cameron, we're, we've been
going the last couple of weekson the podcast. We've been
talking about marriage, and wetalked way more about sex than I
(00:46):
thought we were going to.
But I
Cameron (00:47):
I got a comment about it, like, in my personal life.
Luke (00:49):
Yeah?
Cameron (00:50):
Yeah. Like, not on any of the pod things or whatever.
Mhmm. Someone sent me a messageand and said they were like,
love the podcast, topics. Had tounsubscribe from the YouTube
version so my kids didn't seethe title on the smart TV.
(01:12):
But I'm listening to it, theaudio version. It's great. Okay.
I'm like, well, yeah. Sorryabout that.
But, also, I mean, what are yougonna do? Yeah. Like, it
Luke (01:22):
No. I mean, we kept
Cameron (01:22):
That's the topic. We kept
Luke (01:23):
it pretty PG 13.
Cameron (01:25):
Oh, yeah.
Luke (01:27):
But, yeah, I was definitely I was going back and
listening to those as I wasediting the editing them, and I
was like, wow. We really talkeda lot about sex.
Cameron (01:35):
We did. Like, 2 whole episodes, basically.
Luke (01:38):
Yeah. Pretty much. So but that was one of the feedbacks,
things that we kinda got fromthe marriage conferences that
people really wanna talk aboutsex and kinda sort it out. It's
one of those things that all thesurveys that I always say that
people think a lot about sex,they just don't talk about it
that much.
Cameron (01:59):
Yeah. I, I sometimes I feel alone in that feeling
because I when I do premaritalcounseling, I will talk to the
couple beforehand about thevarious topics that we're that I
wanna talk about or that I thinkare important to talk about. And
(02:19):
we talk about the regular ones,communication and Yeah. You
know, your story, family oforigin, and spiritual beliefs
and stuff like that. And then Ido a pretty large portion on
sex.
Mhmm. The sexual relationship,but all of that. And quite a few
times, I've gotten, like like,oh, like, re like, we're gonna
(02:43):
go there? Like, we're gonnalike, really? We're gonna go
there?
Right. I'm like, yeah. Well,yeah, I I I don't I I couldn't
imagine how we wouldn't or howwe couldn't
Luke (02:53):
Yeah.
Cameron (02:54):
Go talk about marriage, prepare you to be married, and
talk about one of the mostsignificant aspects of being
married. So, anyway but it is II was I I think I was a little
surprised at the feedback fromthe marriage conference about
wanting more talk on sex. Yeah.So much so that I didn't really
(03:21):
have a vision or a plan for thatbeing a part of, like, marriage
ministry moving forward.
Luke (03:30):
Right.
Cameron (03:32):
But kinda think that it needs to be.
Luke (03:34):
Yeah. Well, because, like, the world's talking about it.
Cameron (03:40):
Right? Right? We're this, like, the most sexually
charged culture Yeah. In well,maybe not.
Luke (03:48):
Not maybe not ever.
Cameron (03:49):
Maybe not ever, but But, like It's a different type
of sexually charged culture.
Luke (03:53):
Right. Sex is everywhere. Schools talk about it. YouTube
videos talk about it. Yoursongs, your magazines,
everything is talking and sayingsomething about sex.
Right. You know, I'll like,like, we weren't planning to
really go down this rabbit hole,but, like, I think it's worth
saying, like, I grew up in ahome, you know, kind of
conservative Christian valuesand culture. And my family
(04:15):
wasn't like, you know, wasn'tlike the, we only watch Veggie
Tales in this house kind offamily because we were kind of
coming to faith as I grew up.But we had kind of seized
Christian values, and we didn'ttalk a ton about sex in our
house. Actually, we didn't talkabout sex at all.
Mhmm. We just changed thechannel anytime an ad came up
(04:36):
Mhmm. That was, like,provocative Yeah. Or if
everybody loves Raymond episodewas talking too much about sex.
Yeah.
But as a kid growing up, thatcommunicated certain things to
me about what sex was. Sex waswhoop. Taboo. Taboo. Mhmm.
Don't talk about sex. Sex is thething that nobody really talks
(04:57):
about, but everybody laughsabout. Mhmm. It's the thing that
every guy wants and every womanis ashamed about. Like Yeah.
Or, like, tolerates. Tolerates.Right? Mhmm. And that was the
message that I got Mhmm.
From a family that didn't talkabout sex or didn't live in a
(05:18):
like, try to avoid thesexualization of everything,
tried to kind of, you know, asbest as they could kind of
manage the sex that was justkinda coming into the household
through our media and the way wetalked about it. And those are
still the messages that I cameaway with, and I've had to work
to build a more biblicalunderstanding of sex out of
(05:39):
that. So, like, we are formingour thoughts, our identities,
our patterns around sex, whetherwe're talking about it
explicitly or not is, I guess,the point that I was trying to
make there.
Cameron (05:51):
We're always being formed. It's what is forming us.
Luke (05:56):
Right.
Cameron (05:58):
That's really the question. It is the is the world
forming our and what I shouldsay is, is the world deforming
our mind about sex? Yeah. Or arewe being formed by conformed, to
God's word, God's design, God'sdesire Yeah. For sex.
(06:20):
So it's always out there. Wewanna have conversations about
it. But, yeah, maybe be thinkinginto 2025 about, how we
integrate the conversation ofsex and marriage and all of that
(06:40):
into ministry. I don't
Luke (06:41):
I don't know. I don't know. It's not something that
we've got all figured out andintegrated, but seems to be at
least a felt need point. So Yep.Yeah.
Yeah. But so we wanna continuethat conversation because
there's more to even though wespent 2 episodes kind of really
talking about sex, there's moreto talk about with marriage.
(07:03):
Mhmm. You know, there's otherways of connecting and building
the relationship that aren'tjust sexual in nature. There are
other things.
And so we wanted to take, thisepisode, talk about kind of
patterns to avoid
Cameron (07:18):
Mhmm.
Luke (07:19):
Is what we're kinda kinda talk about. So, Cam, do you
have, like, a
Cameron (07:22):
Within marriage itself.
Luke (07:24):
Do you have an idea of where you kinda wanna move in
that conversation?
Cameron (07:27):
Yeah. You know, there's a few things as we were talking
about what we could what wecould talk about on the podcast
as coming out of the conference.One of the there's the things
that you wanna pursue, andthere's the things that you want
(07:48):
to avoid. And I think that Ihave found, that there are some
fairly typical patterns
Luke (07:55):
Mhmm.
Cameron (07:56):
That are can be just landmines
Luke (08:03):
Yeah.
Cameron (08:05):
In most relationships, but, like, definitely in
marriage relationships. Mhmm. SoI get if we just jump right into
it, I would say, like, one ofthe first these are in no
particular order, but one of thefirst would be a pattern of
selfishness. Mhmm. And this isnot like this is a not a this is
(08:34):
a well established Christianprinciple or virtue.
Is would be, like, againstselfishness.
Luke (08:42):
Right.
Cameron (08:42):
Paul, you know, for instance, in first Corinthians
13, love is not self seeking.
Luke (08:47):
Yeah. Yep. Right. Or or a lot of people talk about in the
bible all the one another's.Right.
If you look up all the passagesthat say look up the word one
another in the bible, you'llfind all these passages in the
new testament about love oneanother, care for one another,
Cameron (09:03):
so forth and so
Luke (09:04):
on.
Cameron (09:04):
Or like we talked about in, we talked about in worship
in one of the sermons lately,the parable of the good
Samaritan. Yep. Loving yourneighbor as yourself.
Luke (09:14):
Mhmm.
Cameron (09:14):
That being connected with a love of God. And so the
idea of not being selfish is nota not a foreign idea to
Christian thought. For whateverreason, what I find is that the
virtues that we seek to developin our Christian life, things
(09:42):
like, you know, againstselfishness. Mhmm. We sometimes
forget that those things stillexist or need to exist within
the context of our marriages.
Mhmm. So, like, I know that as afollower of Jesus and as a
person who loves, for instance,you and the rest of my staff
(10:04):
Mhmm. That if I that I like, Ishouldn't be seeking selfish
gain as a pastor or a supervisoror a boss or whatever. Right?
Yeah.
But do I hold selfish patternswithin my marriage? Yeah. And,
(10:25):
like, a selfish pattern in amarriage would be, for instance,
not concerning myself with or ornot cons being considerate of
what Mhmm. My wife's concerns
Luke (10:38):
Right.
Cameron (10:38):
Are. What she wants to do, where she wants to go, how
she wants to live, the choicesshe wants to make, the visions,
goals, dreams, passions,whatever that she has. It'd be
really easy for me to be justcompletely self centered. Yeah.
(11:03):
And I think at the marriageconference, I talked about this
a little bit.
And I I I wanna say I spoke, butI think I felt like I was just
preaching, on Philippianschapter 2,
Luke (11:19):
which,
Cameron (11:19):
of course, the model for anti selfishness is Jesus.
Yep. Who, being in very natureof God, did not equality with
God something to be grasped, buthe humbled himself from being
obedient to death, even down ona cross, you know, take the same
attitude as that of ChristJesus. Your attitude should be
(11:49):
that as the same as ChristJesus. Do nothing under selfish
ambition or vain conceit, but inhumility, consider others better
than yourselves.
Each of you should look not onlyto your own interests, but also
into the also to the interestsof others. And so, like, for
whatever reason, that is a we wethink about that in terms of our
(12:14):
relationship with others.
Luke (12:15):
Yeah.
Cameron (12:16):
But it a lot of the times, it escapes like, oh, no.
This is actually I should besomething I should be pursuing
in the most important humanrelationship that I have. Yeah.
Which is not considering, youknow, like, thinking of my wife
as better than me. Mhmm.
Not gonna do anything out of aselfish ambition. What is just
(12:39):
best for Cameron?
Luke (12:40):
Mhmm.
Cameron (12:40):
What is best for me, or a vain conceit? Because I'm
gonna do what's best for mebecause I'm the most important
person in this relationship. ButI I'm instead in relationship
with my wife, gonna be take aposition of humility and not
consider and consider others, mywife, better
Luke (13:03):
Mhmm.
Cameron (13:03):
Than myself. I take that position of humility. It
allows me to see her, in, in anon selfish way. So that I am
now looking not only to my owninterests, which is interesting
because the like, Paul's notinsinuating that we need to
(13:24):
completely just, like, selfflagellate and mortify No. To
the sense that we lose allindividuality or maybe that's
the wrong word.
We lose all sense of, like,what's important to us, so it's
sense of self. But we're justnot looking to what is only best
Luke (13:39):
for us. Right.
Cameron (13:41):
We're also looking to what is best for the other.
Luke (13:44):
Yeah. Well and that's the paradox of really all Christian
relationships, but particularlythe marriage relationship is
when the other person does thesame, it works out. Yep. You
know, it's just but it's thatrisk of, you know, when you get
into a stalemate of somethingand, like, who's gonna be the
(14:06):
first one to humble themselvesor to, like, express love or
seek connection. And if we'reboth like, well, I'm waiting for
the other person, you'll both bewaiting
Cameron (14:16):
for a long time. Forever. Yeah. Someone has to go
first. Yeah.
And it should be a race to theplace of humility.
Luke (14:28):
Mhmm.
Cameron (14:30):
Like trying to it it it's maybe a little oxymoronic,
but, like, trying to
Luke (14:38):
Outdo one another.
Cameron (14:38):
Outdo one another Mhmm. In the showing of honor. Yeah.
Outdo one another in the, in theshowing of service. I've used
the phrase here a condo before,like, race to the back of the
line.
As conduits, we should be racingto the back of the line, racing
(15:00):
to the bottom of the proverbialladder. Yeah. Not stepping over
people to get to the front.Mhmm. Not trying to put
ourselves out in front ofothers, but going and being with
the last, making ourselves thelast.
Because that was the attitude ofJesus is that he had all
(15:22):
authority. Yeah. If there wasanyone that deserved to be at
the front Right. It was him.
Luke (15:28):
Right.
Cameron (15:28):
Right? And we might say that in our marriages. Like,
well, I am x in the marriage.I'm the major breadwinner, or I
take care of the kids in thehome, or I, work really hard, or
I am older, or I am like,whatever whatever it is.
Whatever reason Whatever reasonyou do.
Luke (15:46):
For the privilege or the right or whatever.
Cameron (15:50):
Because I'm a male.
Luke (15:52):
Yeah. Right.
Cameron (15:53):
Right? Or because I'm a female. What what whatever it
is, that Jesus had every reason.Mhmm. And in the midst of having
every reason or every reason,the word says that he humbled
himself, that he made thechoice.
(16:14):
Yeah. So it was a willful it wasa willful position of humility
that he took in order to he madehimself nothing. Yep. Taking the
very nature of a servant. Hehumbled himself and became
obedient to death, even death ona cross.
Therefore, God exalted him tothe highest place. So I think
(16:41):
the, a pattern to avoid inmarriage is a pattern of
thinking too often in too muchof ourselves.
Luke (16:52):
Yeah. Yeah. I think it's got a lot to do with, you know,
a lot of times our own selfish,like, pride wanting people to
think well of us Mhmm. Can keepus in good behavior in our other
in our external relationshipsoutside of our marriage.
Because, like like, I'm notmarried to you, Cameron.
(17:15):
I I could quit. I could leave. Icould go away. Right? I could do
whatever.
Mhmm. But your wife, your wife'smarried to you.
Cameron (17:23):
Mhmm.
Luke (17:23):
Right? And same with my wife. And, like, it's easy to,
one, like, that safety andsecurity is a blessing in the in
the marriage relationship. Butif we're not careful, we can use
that as an excuse to just, like,not try. Mhmm.
Or to give what's our leftovers.You know? A lot of times for
(17:44):
our, like, in our married lives,you know, we see each other as
we get up and we rush out thedoor in the morning. And then we
expend a lot of energythroughout the day, whether
that's with the kids or at ourjobs or running from one place
to another, doing all the thingsthat need to be done. We get
home.
Maybe there's an after schoolactivity, and maybe there's,
(18:07):
like, a thing or a thing wegotta go do. And then we
collapse, and we're just like,we've got nothing for each other
at the end of the day. Mhmm. Andwe don't go that final mile, for
our spouse, and we're just like,Yep. So I think it's easy for us
to end up that relationship thatwe return home to every day is
(18:28):
the one that is easy to notprioritize or not expend energy
on because it ends up being thelast thing in the day.
And it's also the one thatthey're gonna if they get mad at
me, what are they gonna do? Youknow? And we can kinda use that
as an excuse.
Cameron (18:46):
Yeah. Which in a way is a it like, it's great to have a
relationship that is so safe Ofcourse. That you don't have to
be Perfect. On Yeah. 100% of thetime.
Yeah. Or at least feel like youhave to be on 100% of the time.
(19:07):
But you're right. It does end upit couldn't it can push us over
into laziness
Luke (19:13):
Mhmm.
Cameron (19:13):
In our virtue Yeah. Of being other centered.
Luke (19:19):
Yeah. Well, it's I think it's a way that Christ forms us
in that we're called to lovewhen there's those other
prideful and other things thatkeep us in good behavior outside
Mhmm. Of the marriagerelationship when that's gone.
Mhmm. It has to come out ofsomewhere else.
It has to come out of adifferent type of love, not just
(19:39):
keeping a face. Mhmm. But it hasto come out of somewhere deeper.
And then there's also there islike that just safety of, like,
being able to, like, I'm notperfect today. I'm having a
rough day.
Like, the amount of times whereI have to just come home and I'm
like, tell my wife just like, Iam tired and I'm hungry. I need
(20:00):
to go. I need to eat food and Ineed to go to sleep. I have,
like, 0 capacity at night. Like,I just have to be honest
because, like and my wife willcall me out, like, when we're
like, when I'm kind of being abit of a butt, she'll just be
like, are you hungry?
I'm just like Mhmm. Dang it. Doyou need a snickers?
Cameron (20:18):
Yeah. I need a snickers.
Luke (20:19):
Like, I I just need to I just need to eat. I need to calm
down, and I'll stop being such agrump. Because I can be a big
grump when I'm hungry. And it'sit's there's a lot of safety in
knowing that she can see thatpart of me, and she's not going
to, beat me up or judge me orleave me. But, like, I also have
(20:40):
to kinda work on that
Cameron (20:42):
too. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Right.
Okay. Next pattern.
Luke (20:50):
Mhmm.
Cameron (20:50):
Pattern of bitterness, which is connected to to to the
third pattern, which is apattern of unforgiveness.
Luke (20:58):
Yeah. They kinda they go hand in hand. 1 creates the
other.
Cameron (21:03):
Yep. Mhmm. Yep. And past bitterness creates future
unforgiveness Yeah. As well.
Like Yeah. We can carrybitterness with us into a into a
relationship. And then our ageneralized bitterness Mhmm.
(21:26):
Does not produce in us the heartof forgiveness. And so then when
we get hurt in relationship, weand we refuse to forgive.
Forgiveness is the pathway toavoid bitterness and heal our
wounds. So when we refuseforgiveness, we invite
(21:53):
bitterness. Yep. It is thenatural it is the natural
consequence of unhealed woundsYeah. Bitterness is.
Mhmm. And so just like just likeour other like, well, just like
(22:15):
we just talked about withselfishness and just like our
other relationships, the theimportance of pursuing
forgiveness is most primary inour relationship with our Yep.
Spouse. And you have to becomean expert in forgiveness if you
(22:38):
wanna be married. Yeah.
Or at least you wanna be marriedhealthily
Luke (22:43):
There we go.
Cameron (22:44):
And for a long time. Yeah. If you are fine with
having a miserable marriage and,probably letting bitterness
erode the foundation to thepoint of separation and divorce,
then just go ahead and don'twork on the decisions to
(23:04):
forgive. Yep. Just let just letthe hurt sit.
Luke (23:08):
Mhmm.
Cameron (23:09):
But every relationship that is long term, every
meaningful long termrelationship, needs forgiveness
as a central part of its DNA.Yeah. You if you're not an
expert in forgiveness, life willbe very, very difficult for you.
Yeah. And this is can't be moretrue than it is in marriage.
(23:34):
Mhmm. Because I've said itbefore, I say it again, like,
marriages hold the greatestcapacity for love. Mhmm. But
that also means that they holdthe greatest capacity for hurt.
There, you know, there's no onethat is more capable of loving
(23:57):
me the way I need to and want tobe loved than my wife.
And there is no one as capableof hurting and injuring me Mhmm.
Than my wife. Yep. Because theplace of love and hurt resides
deeply in a person in the exactsame place.
Luke (24:19):
Yeah. Mhmm.
Cameron (24:20):
It's the exact same place. Yeah. It goes it's the
same depth. Right? Where we getloved and where we get hurt Yep.
Are the same place. And so if welet people into the place Mhmm.
Where we get loved, where we canget loved, they are in they are
in the room where our hurtexists. Yeah. And so part of
(24:41):
loving is also, is also being,part of part of allowing
ourselves to be loved Mhmm.
Is also allowing ourselves to behurt, which means that we will
inevitably be hurt, and we haveto
Luke (25:01):
Mhmm.
Cameron (25:02):
Become an expert in forgiveness.
Luke (25:04):
Yep. I think it's CS Lewis in his book on the four loves
has a portion where he talksabout and says, if you never
wanna be hurt, you never wannaexperience pain. You can do
that. Mhmm. You just have tonever love.
Mhmm. Yep. And I you know, andthis was this was something that
(25:27):
I think I saw online somewhere,but I think it's like, it's very
true is if you, like, you know,you don't have I don't put I
don't put a ton of stock in,like, the love languages and
things like that. Mhmm. There'ssome it's helpful.
Right? Like, it's kind of like alittle neat personality test.
(25:48):
But they were kind of like, ifyou name kind of the way in
which you didn't receive lovevery often as a kid, place where
you were hurt as a kid, youdidn't feel loved or accepted.
That is a place you will feelmost loved by your spouse and is
most likely the love languageyou desire the most. Mhmm.
(26:08):
I'm like, well yeah.
Cameron (26:11):
Yeah. It's probably true. Yeah. There's Anecdotally.
Luke (26:16):
Anecdotally. To some to some extent, I think that can be
true. Mhmm. So Yep. You know,there's definitely an element of
we I think at every person longsto be fully known and then fully
loved because our deepest fearis to be fully known and then
despised.
Cameron (26:38):
Yes. Yes. Right. Yeah. Like, oh my gosh.
They see me for exactly who Iam. Yep. And they hate it. Yeah.
Like, oh.
Luke (26:46):
Oh, they found out the thing that I was hoping they
didn't find out. Yep. And nowI'm waiting for them to judge
me, leave me, abandon me,despise me, resent me, whatever.
And that that creates a fear ofvulnerability and can keep,
like, the walls up in a marriageMhmm. In any, really, any
(27:07):
relationship.
Cameron (27:08):
Yeah. Yeah. And so just like selfishness or just like
anything, any relationship thatwe have, we have to learn how to
forgive in our marriages.
Luke (27:20):
Mhmm.
Cameron (27:22):
So me forgiving you or you forgiving me, it holds the
same principles. It's just weneed to pursue them in our
marriage, and we forget that wegotta pursue those same virtues
or same practices Yeah. In ourmarriage. So, like, when I'm
choosing to forget, you know,like, what we talk about
forgiveness here at Conduit as achoice. Mhmm.
(27:43):
Forgiveness is a choice.Feeling. Not a feeling. It is
not an emotion. We don't forgivewhen we have when we have
finally conjured up the feelingsof forgiveness.
Luke (27:54):
Mhmm.
Cameron (27:55):
We forgive as a decision to release someone from
the debt that they owe mebecause of what they've done to
me. Yeah. And the reason that wecan do that is because, God's
decision to forgive us was adecision, not a feeling.
Luke (28:15):
Mhmm.
Cameron (28:18):
Separating our sin from us as far as the east is from
the west in Jesus Christ.
Luke (28:23):
Mhmm.
Cameron (28:25):
And and Jesus' own reflection on forgiveness, many
places in the scripture, parableof the unmerciful servant in
Matthew chapter 18, also theSermon on the Mount, right after
the lord's right after thelord's prayer. Right? And if you
do not forgive men when they sinagainst you, your father in
(28:47):
heaven will not forgive you yoursins.
Luke (28:50):
Mhmm.
Cameron (28:52):
Which every, you know, every single time I don't know
if you ever preached on thatverse before, but every single
time that I use that verse in asermon, you can see across the
congregation, a handful ofpeople, like visibly recoil.
(29:15):
Yeah. Like and I even hadsomeone one time, not recently.
One time I was preaching on thatverse in particular, and they
were, like, shaking their headno and then got up and left in
(29:36):
the middle of the sermon.
Luke (29:40):
And that'll happen if you preach the Bible sometime.
Cameron (29:42):
I yeah. I mean, it doesn't happen often to me in 20
years of preaching. I thinkthat's, like, only 1 or 2 times
that that's happened. But Mhmm.Because what is what do we
always say about God's attitudetowards forgiveness of us?
We always say God forgives Yeah.Everything. Right. Like, just
(30:03):
gotta like like, there's there'snothing that you will do Mhmm.
That God would not forgive youfrom if you ask for forgiveness.
Yeah. Like, God always forgives.Does is that true? Well, I mean,
(30:23):
we take the words of Jesusseriously.
Luke (30:26):
Right.
Cameron (30:28):
Then we would have to make some qualifications on that
statement that God alwaysforgives.
Luke (30:34):
Mhmm.
Cameron (30:37):
Yep. And I think what we ended up saying in the sermon
series we did this past summerwas that God makes forgiveness
universally available, but notuniversally applied.
Luke (30:54):
Mhmm.
Cameron (30:55):
Forgiveness is not universally applied, meaning
everyone is forgiven no matterwhat, of everything no matter
what.
Luke (31:01):
Mhmm.
Cameron (31:01):
That would be universalism.
Luke (31:03):
Mhmm.
Cameron (31:04):
Forgiveness is universally available to all
those who call on the name ofJesus.
Luke (31:09):
Mhmm.
Cameron (31:11):
But the words of Jesus are like, if I'm holding on
forgiveness towards someoneMhmm. And I'm just like, I am
not forgiving that person Yeah.I'm a if I'm showing that
bitterness has taken root in mylife, they have hurt me. They
have hurt me so bad. Yep.
(31:32):
You know, I've worked withcouples before who the wife is
bitter or the husband is bitteror whatever for something to
happen 20 years ago.
Luke (31:41):
Mhmm.
Cameron (31:43):
Yep. Long, long over with. Yep. But actually not over
with because they never forgave.And so it took root the the
offense took root in theirheart.
Mhmm. And the fruit of thatrootedness was bitterness. Yep.
And so it was as the anger, thepoison, the toxicity
Luke (32:07):
Mhmm. That resentment.
Cameron (32:09):
That resentment and bitterness was as fresh today as
it was 20 years ago when theactual event occurred.
Luke (32:15):
Yeah. Because they've kept rehearsing it, replaying it over
and over. And that was sohurtful. Oh, that was so
painful. I just that was howawful.
How could they? And they justyou revisit it like this awful
sick drink that just makes yousick.
Cameron (32:32):
Yeah. And so the question, I guess, that we got
there by saying, like, ourforgiveness the forgiveness that
we receive from God is tied tothe same measure in which we
forgive others. Yeah. That's theplain words of
Luke (32:51):
Jesus Mhmm.
Cameron (32:52):
In Matthew chapter 5 at the end of Matthew chapter 5.
It's also the parabolic words ofJesus in Matthew chapter 18 Yep.
Mhmm. With the the whole parableof the unmerciful servant is
that. Yep.
Go ahead. You will you willreceive forgiveness and mercy in
the same measure that youforgive others. Yep. Which is
(33:15):
like
Luke (33:18):
Yeah. Creaky. Yeah. You
Cameron (33:20):
know, that's heavy. Yeah. That's heavy. Absolutely.
So avoiding the pattern ofunforgiveness by making
decisions to forgive, knowingthat you're going to be hurt in
a marriage relationship.
Luke (33:38):
Yeah. Yeah. And that doesn't mean right? Like, this
is the thing that whenever youtalk about forgiveness or we
talk about forgiveness, there'salways this, like, I guess
there's this, like, fear of,like, well, does that mean that
they just get to do whatever?Like, you know, and that's, you
(34:02):
know, that because we talkedabout selfishness first.
Right? Like, as people who arebroken and imperfect and as we
receive unforgiveness, we wanna,you know, we wanna steward that
well. We wanna be people whoactually try and keep our word
and make positive change and notjust live in the same patterns
(34:24):
and and continue to be, someonewho, you know, I guess isn't
trustworthy with thatforgiveness that's being given.
Cameron (34:33):
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Luke (34:34):
You know, not that you earn it because you can't.
Cameron (34:36):
No. Mm-mm. But yeah. 3rd pattern 3rd pattern. To
avoid, well, is bitterness.
We've kinda talked about that.
Luke (34:46):
We've kinda talked about that. Yeah. Because that
Cameron (34:48):
So Yeah.
Luke (34:48):
Because bitterness just
Cameron (34:50):
Bitterness is bitterness is just the fruit of
unforgiveness. Yeah. It's all itis.
Luke (34:54):
And the one last thing I'll say about it is what
happens, I think, with a lot ofcouples and in almost any
relationship where there'sbitterness or resentment is the
person who's holding bitternessand resentment will miss and not
receive the acts of love,kindness, and reaching out for
(35:16):
connection that the other personis sending or giving. So even if
there's like this happens allthe time when there's bitterness
on both ends of therelationship, is one person will
be drinking from theirbitterness cup. The other person
will be wanting to makeconnection or be loving or kind,
(35:36):
and they'll do something nice orkind. And the person with the
bitterness that they're drinkingright now is just gonna ignore
it, push it back, reject it. Andthen they're like, oh, okay.
Fine. They're still bitter. I'mgonna go drink my bitterness
cup. And then the person andthen they just swap roles Yeah.
Perpetually.
And they never get onto the samepage where they're both reaching
out to each other at the sametime.
Cameron (35:58):
Yeah. So bitterness becomes kind of like this
shield. Mhmm. Not even a shield,but, like yeah. I guess a shield
that does not allow you toreceive love in its most genuine
form Yeah.
From another.
Luke (36:17):
And then it it's like it's this bitterness is really
sticky. Like, the moment someoneacts in a way you're like, oh,
well, that's just anotherexample. Add that to my
bitterness. Right? And you justlook and you just grab on
anything that feels like itmatches that narrative that
you've got going on.
Mhmm. Mhmm. So but, anyways,that's the bitterness and
(36:39):
unforgiveness. What's the 4thpattern?
Cameron (36:42):
Idolatry. Yeah. Pattern of idolatry.
Luke (36:45):
So what? Like, Cameron, does that mean I have a little
tiki idol next to my bed? Like,is that what's ruining our
marriage?
Cameron (36:53):
Well, if if you do, then It would be. Yeah. You're
certainly a part of it.
Luke (36:59):
Just for clarity, I don't. Yeah. But what do you mean when
you say idolatry?
Cameron (37:04):
So, what I find is that couples get into a displacement
of what is great by by,replacing it with what is good.
Mhmm. And, what is good is themost insidious enemy of what is
(37:33):
great. Yeah. Because it's soclose to the truth that it
convinces us to continue topursue it.
Mhmm. So as an example, probablyone of the most significant
examples, because it is a topit's a it's a kind of a hot
(37:55):
button topic for most people,obviously, is kids. Mhmm. That
when a couple gets married andthey start having kid you see it
all the time. They start havingkids, and are kids good?
(38:20):
The kids love me. Like, they'rea gift they're a gift they're a
gift from God. Right? Yeah.Absolutely.
They're they are yeah. There'sthey're not just good. They're
great.
Luke (38:31):
Mhmm.
Cameron (38:32):
You know? But your relationship with your kids is
not the most importantrelationship that you have.
Luke (38:44):
Mhmm.
Cameron (38:46):
It's not even the most important human relationship
that you have. We could say wecould go into all different
types of scenarios. Like, ifyou're happen to be divorced and
a single parent or widowed orwhatever, like, I'm not I'm not
talking about any of that. I'mtalking as a baseline. A married
(39:07):
couple still living together,have kids, and then all of a
sudden, like, my kids are myworld.
Luke (39:16):
Yep.
Cameron (39:19):
And they live for their kids.
Luke (39:22):
Mhmm.
Cameron (39:22):
And they become, in many ways, roommates Mhmm. And
co laborers in the job ofraising the kids. Mhmm. Such a
good thing.
Luke (39:42):
Yeah. Right.
Cameron (39:42):
Obviously, no one's gonna no one's gonna argue with
that, but it's really easy forour relationship with our kids
to become more important thanour relationship with our
spouses. And the best way for meto love my kids is to love my
spouse. Yeah. To serve myspouse, forgive my spouse
Luke (40:07):
Mhmm.
Cameron (40:08):
To be selfless to her, to my family, to be forgiving,
all of those patterns that wetalked about to put off
bitterness. And so we it becomesreally easy to we and we we see
this with the with with emptynesters sometimes.
Luke (40:28):
Mhmm.
Cameron (40:28):
The last kid leaves the house.
Luke (40:30):
And then everything falls apart.
Cameron (40:32):
Yep. They don't know how to be married. Yep. They
don't know how to be inrelationship with one another.
Mhmm.
They don't know how to livetogether. They don't know how to
connect. They don't know how tobe vulnerable. They don't know
how to be intimate. They don'tknow any of that because they
just spent the last 18 years oftheir life idolizing parenting
Yep.
And idolizing their kids. Andnow they're in a place of, like,
(40:57):
I feel like I'm living with astranger Yep. Because you are.
So that's a big one.
Luke (41:04):
It's a big one. It the the thing too is, don't make your
kids live underneath that amountof weight. Right. Because even
if the kids aren't able to namethe fact that you're idle, like,
they wouldn't come to you andsay, mother, father, I think
you've idolized me. Like,they're not gonna be able to
articulate that.
But they will feel the pressurethat gets put on to on them to
(41:29):
succeed Mhmm. To make you happy,for that you're trying to put in
there through living vicariouslythrough them. Mhmm. They
children were not meant to beturned to egomaniacs by making
them think that they are thecenter of your world.
Cameron (41:47):
Right. Yeah. It's not healthy for them. No. Mhmm.
People do it. People idolizework.
Luke (41:53):
Yeah.
Cameron (41:54):
You know, you get get into a pattern of idolizing
work.
Luke (41:58):
Mhmm.
Cameron (41:59):
A good again, a a good thing. Work is a good work is a
good thing. But when it becomesour primary focus, our primary
drive, our primary place ofvision and passion and, effort
Mhmm. And energy, energy Mhmm.Then it's become this is one
(42:25):
that I am, like, really guiltyof.
Mhmm. Yeah. And it's, you know,like giving my work 99% of my
emotional Yeah. Mental physicalcapacity for a day. So when I
(42:48):
walk through the doors at 4 or 5or whenever it is, I'm coming
home 6, 7, 8, you know, thatday, I have 1% of my capacity
left.
Yeah. And when someone's at 1 1percent of their capacity, it
doesn't take a lot to heat upthat. Yep. And then you're then
(43:11):
you're living in emotionaldeficit. Yeah.
Physical deficit. And you dothings and you say things and
you act in such a way as to bedishonoring and unloving and all
of that. And so the question of,like, okay, who is getting who
(43:33):
is getting the best parts of me?Yeah. And it kinda goes back to
the what you were saying aboutselfishness in that, it is an
easy sell to say, well, workneeds the best part of me
because that's the people I needto impress the most, lead the
(43:56):
most, whatever the case may be.
And I can I can like, my my wifecan deal just deal with the fact
that I'm out there providing or
Luke (44:04):
Right?
Cameron (44:04):
Whatever.
Luke (44:04):
Well, that's the thing is we'll use the family as an
excuse. Like, I gotta, like, Igotta provide.
Cameron (44:09):
Yeah. I
Luke (44:10):
gotta I gotta you know, this is this is how I pay for
our vacations or the kids'school or whatever. You know?
However you justify it. Mhmm.But it ends up being like if you
if you were to ask your kid, youknow, do you do you want more
money in our bank account or doyou want me more present?
Cameron (44:30):
More time.
Luke (44:31):
Kid's gonna want more time.
Cameron (44:32):
He's gonna want more presence. Mhmm.
Luke (44:35):
And, you know, I think that's just so it's so tempting
because, you know, in our jobs,sometimes our jobs can be a
place where we feel a sense ofcontrol, a sense of
accomplishment. Whereas if wedon't feel that elsewhere, we
can run to that as a place tokind of find that.
Cameron (44:57):
Mhmm. Yeah. So does
Luke (45:00):
that mean, Cameron, that we just completely focus in on
our spouse in totality?
Cameron (45:07):
Actually, no. Like because the last idol in
marriage is our spouse. Yeah.And it becomes so easy. Yeah.
Like all of our attention, allof our focus, all of our energy.
And if you don't think yourspouse can become an idol, your
(45:29):
spouse can definitely become anidol.
Luke (45:31):
Very much.
Cameron (45:31):
When you're when when you're running around in life
managing their emotions. Mhmm.Managing your emotions or your
actions to make sure thatthey're, like
Luke (45:48):
They're happy.
Cameron (45:48):
They're happy. They're They like you. Mhmm.
Luke (45:50):
There's something good of you.
Cameron (45:52):
Yep. Or even you're compromising some values that
you have. Mhmm. Ideally, youknow, you'd wanna have similar
values, you and your spouse.Yeah.
It's the same values.
Luke (46:06):
Right.
Cameron (46:07):
But doesn't always happen that way. Yeah. And so
when you begin to compromisesome of the values that you
have, and that can be valuesaround money, time spent,
family, faith, whatever, youbegin to compromise some of
those values. You show that yourspouse has a place in your life
(46:31):
that, is a place in your lifethat is unhealthily powerful.
Yeah.
Yeah. So our spouses are not ourspouses are not the goal of
(46:52):
marriage. What? The goal isalways Jesus.
Luke (46:55):
Mhmm.
Cameron (46:56):
There's always the pursuit of Jesus. There's always
the faithfulness of Jesus. Itwas all it's always obedience to
Jesus. It's always love of GodMhmm. More.
Yeah. In all just like in all oflife. And so in all of life
equals in all of marriage.
Luke (47:14):
Yep. And idolatry is this, like I think idolatry has a lot
to do with, like, identity.Mhmm. When we like like, we want
something from our job, ourkids, or our spouse to give us
something that's going to makeus feel whole.
Cameron (47:35):
Mhmm.
Luke (47:35):
To make us feel complete. I'm a great spouse. I'm a great
dad or mom. I'm a great,employee boss. I'm accomplished.
I can do these things. We'rewanting some sort of, like,
identity statement to be filledMhmm. By that idol.
Cameron (47:55):
Mhmm.
Luke (47:55):
And spouse's kids and a job can't fill it ultimately.
Mhmm.
Cameron (48:01):
Yep. Yeah. Okay. So these are some patterns that I
would say to avoid. Avoid?
Yeah. Selfishness,unforgiveness, bitterness,
idolatry.
Luke (48:12):
Mhmm. There's lots. There's tons.
Cameron (48:14):
But those are those are some that I see, happening a
lot, and doing a lot of damage.
Luke (48:22):
Yep. So So join us in the next episode. We'll talk about
patterns of connection. So notjust the negative side of this,
but the positive side of it.Yeah.
And, as we kind of wrap up,little more spirit
Cameron (48:36):
conference series. Something about
Luke (48:38):
it. Yeah. Send us your questions and comments as
always, and we'll see you nexttime.
If you are fine with having a miserable marriage and
probably letting bitternesserode the foundation to the
point of separation and divorceMhmm. Then just go ahead and
don't work on the decisions toforgive. Welcome to The Uncut
(00:20):
Podcast.
Luke (00:21):
I'm pastor Luke. I'm pastor Gary. And this is The
Uncut Podcast where we havehonest, uncut conversations
about faith, life, and history.Oh, Cameron, we're, we've been
going the last couple of weekson the podcast. We've been
talking about marriage, and wetalked way more about sex than I
(00:46):
thought we were going to.
But I
Cameron (00:47):
I got a comment about it, like, in my personal life.
Luke (00:49):
Yeah?
Cameron (00:50):
Yeah. Like, not on any of the pod things or whatever.
Mhmm. Someone sent me a messageand and said they were like,
love the podcast, topics. Had tounsubscribe from the YouTube
version so my kids didn't seethe title on the smart TV.
(01:12):
But I'm listening to it, theaudio version. It's great. Okay.
I'm like, well, yeah. Sorryabout that.
But, also, I mean, what are yougonna do? Yeah. Like, it
Luke (01:22):
No. I mean, we kept
Cameron (01:22):
That's the topic. We kept
Luke (01:23):
it pretty PG 13.
Cameron (01:25):
Oh, yeah.
Luke (01:27):
But, yeah, I was definitely I was going back and
listening to those as I wasediting the editing them, and I
was like, wow. We really talkeda lot about sex.
Cameron (01:35):
We did. Like, 2 whole episodes, basically.
Luke (01:38):
Yeah. Pretty much. So but that was one of the feedbacks,
things that we kinda got fromthe marriage conferences that
people really wanna talk aboutsex and kinda sort it out. It's
one of those things that all thesurveys that I always say that
people think a lot about sex,they just don't talk about it
that much.
Cameron (01:59):
Yeah. I, I sometimes I feel alone in that feeling
because I when I do premaritalcounseling, I will talk to the
couple beforehand about thevarious topics that we're that I
wanna talk about or that I thinkare important to talk about. And
(02:19):
we talk about the regular ones,communication and Yeah. You
know, your story, family oforigin, and spiritual beliefs
and stuff like that. And then Ido a pretty large portion on
sex.
Mhmm. The sexual relationship,but all of that. And quite a few
times, I've gotten, like like,oh, like, re like, we're gonna
(02:43):
go there? Like, we're gonnalike, really? We're gonna go
there?
Right. I'm like, yeah. Well,yeah, I I I don't I I couldn't
imagine how we wouldn't or howwe couldn't
Luke (02:53):
Yeah.
Cameron (02:54):
Go talk about marriage, prepare you to be married, and
talk about one of the mostsignificant aspects of being
married. So, anyway but it is II was I I think I was a little
surprised at the feedback fromthe marriage conference about
wanting more talk on sex. Yeah.So much so that I didn't really
(03:21):
have a vision or a plan for thatbeing a part of, like, marriage
ministry moving forward.
Luke (03:30):
Right.
Cameron (03:32):
But kinda think that it needs to be.
Luke (03:34):
Yeah. Well, because, like, the world's talking about it.
Cameron (03:40):
Right? Right? We're this, like, the most sexually
charged culture Yeah. In well,maybe not.
Luke (03:48):
Not maybe not ever.
Cameron (03:49):
Maybe not ever, but But, like It's a different type
of sexually charged culture.
Luke (03:53):
Right. Sex is everywhere. Schools talk about it. YouTube
videos talk about it. Yoursongs, your magazines,
everything is talking and sayingsomething about sex.
Right. You know, I'll like,like, we weren't planning to
really go down this rabbit hole,but, like, I think it's worth
saying, like, I grew up in ahome, you know, kind of
conservative Christian valuesand culture. And my family
(04:15):
wasn't like, you know, wasn'tlike the, we only watch Veggie
Tales in this house kind offamily because we were kind of
coming to faith as I grew up.But we had kind of seized
Christian values, and we didn'ttalk a ton about sex in our
house. Actually, we didn't talkabout sex at all.
Mhmm. We just changed thechannel anytime an ad came up
(04:36):
Mhmm. That was, like,provocative Yeah. Or if
everybody loves Raymond episodewas talking too much about sex.
Yeah.
But as a kid growing up, thatcommunicated certain things to
me about what sex was. Sex waswhoop. Taboo. Taboo. Mhmm.
Don't talk about sex. Sex is thething that nobody really talks
(04:57):
about, but everybody laughsabout. Mhmm. It's the thing that
every guy wants and every womanis ashamed about. Like Yeah.
Or, like, tolerates. Tolerates.Right? Mhmm. And that was the
message that I got Mhmm.
From a family that didn't talkabout sex or didn't live in a
(05:18):
like, try to avoid thesexualization of everything,
tried to kind of, you know, asbest as they could kind of
manage the sex that was justkinda coming into the household
through our media and the way wetalked about it. And those are
still the messages that I cameaway with, and I've had to work
to build a more biblicalunderstanding of sex out of
(05:39):
that. So, like, we are formingour thoughts, our identities,
our patterns around sex, whetherwe're talking about it
explicitly or not is, I guess,the point that I was trying to
make there.
Cameron (05:51):
We're always being formed. It's what is forming us.
Luke (05:56):
Right.
Cameron (05:58):
That's really the question. It is the is the world
forming our and what I shouldsay is, is the world deforming
our mind about sex? Yeah. Or arewe being formed by conformed, to
God's word, God's design, God'sdesire Yeah. For sex.
(06:20):
So it's always out there. Wewanna have conversations about
it. But, yeah, maybe be thinkinginto 2025 about, how we
integrate the conversation ofsex and marriage and all of that
(06:40):
into ministry. I don't
Luke (06:41):
I don't know. I don't know. It's not something that
we've got all figured out andintegrated, but seems to be at
least a felt need point. So Yep.Yeah.
Yeah. But so we wanna continuethat conversation because
there's more to even though wespent 2 episodes kind of really
talking about sex, there's moreto talk about with marriage.
(07:03):
Mhmm. You know, there's otherways of connecting and building
the relationship that aren'tjust sexual in nature. There are
other things.
And so we wanted to take, thisepisode, talk about kind of
patterns to avoid
Cameron (07:18):
Mhmm.
Luke (07:19):
Is what we're kinda kinda talk about. So, Cam, do you
have, like, a
Cameron (07:22):
Within marriage itself.
Luke (07:24):
Do you have an idea of where you kinda wanna move in
that conversation?
Cameron (07:27):
Yeah. You know, there's a few things as we were talking
about what we could what wecould talk about on the podcast
as coming out of the conference.One of the there's the things
that you wanna pursue, andthere's the things that you want
(07:48):
to avoid. And I think that Ihave found, that there are some
fairly typical patterns
Luke (07:55):
Mhmm.
Cameron (07:56):
That are can be just landmines
Luke (08:03):
Yeah.
Cameron (08:05):
In most relationships, but, like, definitely in
marriage relationships. Mhmm. SoI get if we just jump right into
it, I would say, like, one ofthe first these are in no
particular order, but one of thefirst would be a pattern of
selfishness. Mhmm. And this isnot like this is a not a this is
(08:34):
a well established Christianprinciple or virtue.
Is would be, like, againstselfishness.
Luke (08:42):
Right.
Cameron (08:42):
Paul, you know, for instance, in first Corinthians
13, love is not self seeking.
Luke (08:47):
Yeah. Yep. Right. Or or a lot of people talk about in the
bible all the one another's.Right.
If you look up all the passagesthat say look up the word one
another in the bible, you'llfind all these passages in the
new testament about love oneanother, care for one another,
Cameron (09:03):
so forth and so
Luke (09:04):
on.
Cameron (09:04):
Or like we talked about in, we talked about in worship
in one of the sermons lately,the parable of the good
Samaritan. Yep. Loving yourneighbor as yourself.
Luke (09:14):
Mhmm.
Cameron (09:14):
That being connected with a love of God. And so the
idea of not being selfish is nota not a foreign idea to
Christian thought. For whateverreason, what I find is that the
virtues that we seek to developin our Christian life, things
(09:42):
like, you know, againstselfishness. Mhmm. We sometimes
forget that those things stillexist or need to exist within
the context of our marriages.
Mhmm. So, like, I know that as afollower of Jesus and as a
person who loves, for instance,you and the rest of my staff
(10:04):
Mhmm. That if I that I like, Ishouldn't be seeking selfish
gain as a pastor or a supervisoror a boss or whatever. Right?
Yeah.
But do I hold selfish patternswithin my marriage? Yeah. And,
(10:25):
like, a selfish pattern in amarriage would be, for instance,
not concerning myself with or ornot cons being considerate of
what Mhmm. My wife's concerns
Luke (10:38):
Right.
Cameron (10:38):
Are. What she wants to do, where she wants to go, how
she wants to live, the choicesshe wants to make, the visions,
goals, dreams, passions,whatever that she has. It'd be
really easy for me to be justcompletely self centered. Yeah.
(11:03):
And I think at the marriageconference, I talked about this
a little bit.
And I I I wanna say I spoke, butI think I felt like I was just
preaching, on Philippianschapter 2,
Luke (11:19):
which,
Cameron (11:19):
of course, the model for anti selfishness is Jesus.
Yep. Who, being in very natureof God, did not equality with
God something to be grasped, buthe humbled himself from being
obedient to death, even down ona cross, you know, take the same
attitude as that of ChristJesus. Your attitude should be
(11:49):
that as the same as ChristJesus. Do nothing under selfish
ambition or vain conceit, but inhumility, consider others better
than yourselves.
Each of you should look not onlyto your own interests, but also
into the also to the interestsof others. And so, like, for
whatever reason, that is a we wethink about that in terms of our
(12:14):
relationship with others.
Luke (12:15):
Yeah.
Cameron (12:16):
But it a lot of the times, it escapes like, oh, no.
This is actually I should besomething I should be pursuing
in the most important humanrelationship that I have. Yeah.
Which is not considering, youknow, like, thinking of my wife
as better than me. Mhmm.
Not gonna do anything out of aselfish ambition. What is just
(12:39):
best for Cameron?
Luke (12:40):
Mhmm.
Cameron (12:40):
What is best for me, or a vain conceit? Because I'm
gonna do what's best for mebecause I'm the most important
person in this relationship. ButI I'm instead in relationship
with my wife, gonna be take aposition of humility and not
consider and consider others, mywife, better
Luke (13:03):
Mhmm.
Cameron (13:03):
Than myself. I take that position of humility. It
allows me to see her, in, in anon selfish way. So that I am
now looking not only to my owninterests, which is interesting
because the like, Paul's notinsinuating that we need to
(13:24):
completely just, like, selfflagellate and mortify No. To
the sense that we lose allindividuality or maybe that's
the wrong word.
We lose all sense of, like,what's important to us, so it's
sense of self. But we're justnot looking to what is only best
Luke (13:39):
for us. Right.
Cameron (13:41):
We're also looking to what is best for the other.
Luke (13:44):
Yeah. Well and that's the paradox of really all Christian
relationships, but particularlythe marriage relationship is
when the other person does thesame, it works out. Yep. You
know, it's just but it's thatrisk of, you know, when you get
into a stalemate of somethingand, like, who's gonna be the
(14:06):
first one to humble themselvesor to, like, express love or
seek connection. And if we'reboth like, well, I'm waiting for
the other person, you'll both bewaiting
Cameron (14:16):
for a long time. Forever. Yeah. Someone has to go
first. Yeah.
And it should be a race to theplace of humility.
Luke (14:28):
Mhmm.
Cameron (14:30):
Like trying to it it it's maybe a little oxymoronic,
but, like, trying to
Luke (14:38):
Outdo one another.
Cameron (14:38):
Outdo one another Mhmm. In the showing of honor. Yeah.
Outdo one another in the, in theshowing of service. I've used
the phrase here a condo before,like, race to the back of the
line.
As conduits, we should be racingto the back of the line, racing
(15:00):
to the bottom of the proverbialladder. Yeah. Not stepping over
people to get to the front.Mhmm. Not trying to put
ourselves out in front ofothers, but going and being with
the last, making ourselves thelast.
Because that was the attitude ofJesus is that he had all
(15:22):
authority. Yeah. If there wasanyone that deserved to be at
the front Right. It was him.
Luke (15:28):
Right.
Cameron (15:28):
Right? And we might say that in our marriages. Like,
well, I am x in the marriage.I'm the major breadwinner, or I
take care of the kids in thehome, or I, work really hard, or
I am older, or I am like,whatever whatever it is.
Whatever reason Whatever reasonyou do.
Luke (15:46):
For the privilege or the right or whatever.
Cameron (15:50):
Because I'm a male.
Luke (15:52):
Yeah. Right.
Cameron (15:53):
Right? Or because I'm a female. What what whatever it
is, that Jesus had every reason.Mhmm. And in the midst of having
every reason or every reason,the word says that he humbled
himself, that he made thechoice.
(16:14):
Yeah. So it was a willful it wasa willful position of humility
that he took in order to he madehimself nothing. Yep. Taking the
very nature of a servant. Hehumbled himself and became
obedient to death, even death ona cross.
Therefore, God exalted him tothe highest place. So I think
(16:41):
the, a pattern to avoid inmarriage is a pattern of
thinking too often in too muchof ourselves.
Luke (16:52):
Yeah. Yeah. I think it's got a lot to do with, you know,
a lot of times our own selfish,like, pride wanting people to
think well of us Mhmm. Can keepus in good behavior in our other
in our external relationshipsoutside of our marriage.
Because, like like, I'm notmarried to you, Cameron.
(17:15):
I I could quit. I could leave. Icould go away. Right? I could do
whatever.
Mhmm. But your wife, your wife'smarried to you.
Cameron (17:23):
Mhmm.
Luke (17:23):
Right? And same with my wife. And, like, it's easy to,
one, like, that safety andsecurity is a blessing in the in
the marriage relationship. Butif we're not careful, we can use
that as an excuse to just, like,not try. Mhmm.
Or to give what's our leftovers.You know? A lot of times for
(17:44):
our, like, in our married lives,you know, we see each other as
we get up and we rush out thedoor in the morning. And then we
expend a lot of energythroughout the day, whether
that's with the kids or at ourjobs or running from one place
to another, doing all the thingsthat need to be done. We get
home.
Maybe there's an after schoolactivity, and maybe there's,
(18:07):
like, a thing or a thing wegotta go do. And then we
collapse, and we're just like,we've got nothing for each other
at the end of the day. Mhmm. Andwe don't go that final mile, for
our spouse, and we're just like,Yep. So I think it's easy for us
to end up that relationship thatwe return home to every day is
(18:28):
the one that is easy to notprioritize or not expend energy
on because it ends up being thelast thing in the day.
And it's also the one thatthey're gonna if they get mad at
me, what are they gonna do? Youknow? And we can kinda use that
as an excuse.
Cameron (18:46):
Yeah. Which in a way is a it like, it's great to have a
relationship that is so safe Ofcourse. That you don't have to
be Perfect. On Yeah. 100% of thetime.
Yeah. Or at least feel like youhave to be on 100% of the time.
(19:07):
But you're right. It does end upit couldn't it can push us over
into laziness
Luke (19:13):
Mhmm.
Cameron (19:13):
In our virtue Yeah. Of being other centered.
Luke (19:19):
Yeah. Well, it's I think it's a way that Christ forms us
in that we're called to lovewhen there's those other
prideful and other things thatkeep us in good behavior outside
Mhmm. Of the marriagerelationship when that's gone.
Mhmm. It has to come out ofsomewhere else.
It has to come out of adifferent type of love, not just
(19:39):
keeping a face. Mhmm. But it hasto come out of somewhere deeper.
And then there's also there islike that just safety of, like,
being able to, like, I'm notperfect today. I'm having a
rough day.
Like, the amount of times whereI have to just come home and I'm
like, tell my wife just like, Iam tired and I'm hungry. I need
(20:00):
to go. I need to eat food and Ineed to go to sleep. I have,
like, 0 capacity at night. Like,I just have to be honest
because, like and my wife willcall me out, like, when we're
like, when I'm kind of being abit of a butt, she'll just be
like, are you hungry?
I'm just like Mhmm. Dang it. Doyou need a snickers?
Cameron (20:18):
Yeah. I need a snickers.
Luke (20:19):
Like, I I just need to I just need to eat. I need to calm
down, and I'll stop being such agrump. Because I can be a big
grump when I'm hungry. And it'sit's there's a lot of safety in
knowing that she can see thatpart of me, and she's not going
to, beat me up or judge me orleave me. But, like, I also have
(20:40):
to kinda work on that
Cameron (20:42):
too. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Right.
Okay. Next pattern.
Luke (20:50):
Mhmm.
Cameron (20:50):
Pattern of bitterness, which is connected to to to the
third pattern, which is apattern of unforgiveness.
Luke (20:58):
Yeah. They kinda they go hand in hand. 1 creates the
other.
Cameron (21:03):
Yep. Mhmm. Yep. And past bitterness creates future
unforgiveness Yeah. As well.
Like Yeah. We can carrybitterness with us into a into a
relationship. And then our ageneralized bitterness Mhmm.
(21:26):
Does not produce in us the heartof forgiveness. And so then when
we get hurt in relationship, weand we refuse to forgive.
Forgiveness is the pathway toavoid bitterness and heal our
wounds. So when we refuseforgiveness, we invite
(21:53):
bitterness. Yep. It is thenatural it is the natural
consequence of unhealed woundsYeah. Bitterness is.
Mhmm. And so just like just likeour other like, well, just like
(22:15):
we just talked about withselfishness and just like our
other relationships, the theimportance of pursuing
forgiveness is most primary inour relationship with our Yep.
Spouse. And you have to becomean expert in forgiveness if you
(22:38):
wanna be married. Yeah.
Or at least you wanna be marriedhealthily
Luke (22:43):
There we go.
Cameron (22:44):
And for a long time. Yeah. If you are fine with
having a miserable marriage and,probably letting bitterness
erode the foundation to thepoint of separation and divorce,
then just go ahead and don'twork on the decisions to
(23:04):
forgive. Yep. Just let just letthe hurt sit.
Luke (23:08):
Mhmm.
Cameron (23:09):
But every relationship that is long term, every
meaningful long termrelationship, needs forgiveness
as a central part of its DNA.Yeah. You if you're not an
expert in forgiveness, life willbe very, very difficult for you.
Yeah. And this is can't be moretrue than it is in marriage.
(23:34):
Mhmm. Because I've said itbefore, I say it again, like,
marriages hold the greatestcapacity for love. Mhmm. But
that also means that they holdthe greatest capacity for hurt.
There, you know, there's no onethat is more capable of loving
(23:57):
me the way I need to and want tobe loved than my wife.
And there is no one as capableof hurting and injuring me Mhmm.
Than my wife. Yep. Because theplace of love and hurt resides
deeply in a person in the exactsame place.
Luke (24:19):
Yeah. Mhmm.
Cameron (24:20):
It's the exact same place. Yeah. It goes it's the
same depth. Right? Where we getloved and where we get hurt Yep.
Are the same place. And so if welet people into the place Mhmm.
Where we get loved, where we canget loved, they are in they are
in the room where our hurtexists. Yeah. And so part of
(24:41):
loving is also, is also being,part of part of allowing
ourselves to be loved Mhmm.
Is also allowing ourselves to behurt, which means that we will
inevitably be hurt, and we haveto
Luke (25:01):
Mhmm.
Cameron (25:02):
Become an expert in forgiveness.
Luke (25:04):
Yep. I think it's CS Lewis in his book on the four loves
has a portion where he talksabout and says, if you never
wanna be hurt, you never wannaexperience pain. You can do
that. Mhmm. You just have tonever love.
Mhmm. Yep. And I you know, andthis was this was something that
(25:27):
I think I saw online somewhere,but I think it's like, it's very
true is if you, like, you know,you don't have I don't put I
don't put a ton of stock in,like, the love languages and
things like that. Mhmm. There'ssome it's helpful.
Right? Like, it's kind of like alittle neat personality test.
(25:48):
But they were kind of like, ifyou name kind of the way in
which you didn't receive lovevery often as a kid, place where
you were hurt as a kid, youdidn't feel loved or accepted.
That is a place you will feelmost loved by your spouse and is
most likely the love languageyou desire the most. Mhmm.
(26:08):
I'm like, well yeah.
Cameron (26:11):
Yeah. It's probably true. Yeah. There's Anecdotally.
Luke (26:16):
Anecdotally. To some to some extent, I think that can be
true. Mhmm. So Yep. You know,there's definitely an element of
we I think at every person longsto be fully known and then fully
loved because our deepest fearis to be fully known and then
despised.
Cameron (26:38):
Yes. Yes. Right. Yeah. Like, oh my gosh.
They see me for exactly who Iam. Yep. And they hate it. Yeah.
Like, oh.
Luke (26:46):
Oh, they found out the thing that I was hoping they
didn't find out. Yep. And nowI'm waiting for them to judge
me, leave me, abandon me,despise me, resent me, whatever.
And that that creates a fear ofvulnerability and can keep,
like, the walls up in a marriageMhmm. In any, really, any
(27:07):
relationship.
Cameron (27:08):
Yeah. Yeah. And so just like selfishness or just like
anything, any relationship thatwe have, we have to learn how to
forgive in our marriages.
Luke (27:20):
Mhmm.
Cameron (27:22):
So me forgiving you or you forgiving me, it holds the
same principles. It's just weneed to pursue them in our
marriage, and we forget that wegotta pursue those same virtues
or same practices Yeah. In ourmarriage. So, like, when I'm
choosing to forget, you know,like, what we talk about
forgiveness here at Conduit as achoice. Mhmm.
(27:43):
Forgiveness is a choice.Feeling. Not a feeling. It is
not an emotion. We don't forgivewhen we have when we have
finally conjured up the feelingsof forgiveness.
Luke (27:54):
Mhmm.
Cameron (27:55):
We forgive as a decision to release someone from
the debt that they owe mebecause of what they've done to
me. Yeah. And the reason that wecan do that is because, God's
decision to forgive us was adecision, not a feeling.
Luke (28:15):
Mhmm.
Cameron (28:18):
Separating our sin from us as far as the east is from
the west in Jesus Christ.
Luke (28:23):
Mhmm.
Cameron (28:25):
And and Jesus' own reflection on forgiveness, many
places in the scripture, parableof the unmerciful servant in
Matthew chapter 18, also theSermon on the Mount, right after
the lord's right after thelord's prayer. Right? And if you
do not forgive men when they sinagainst you, your father in
(28:47):
heaven will not forgive you yoursins.
Luke (28:50):
Mhmm.
Cameron (28:52):
Which every, you know, every single time I don't know
if you ever preached on thatverse before, but every single
time that I use that verse in asermon, you can see across the
congregation, a handful ofpeople, like visibly recoil.
(29:15):
Yeah. Like and I even hadsomeone one time, not recently.
One time I was preaching on thatverse in particular, and they
were, like, shaking their headno and then got up and left in
(29:36):
the middle of the sermon.
Luke (29:40):
And that'll happen if you preach the Bible sometime.
Cameron (29:42):
I yeah. I mean, it doesn't happen often to me in 20
years of preaching. I thinkthat's, like, only 1 or 2 times
that that's happened. But Mhmm.Because what is what do we
always say about God's attitudetowards forgiveness of us?
We always say God forgives Yeah.Everything. Right. Like, just
(30:03):
gotta like like, there's there'snothing that you will do Mhmm.
That God would not forgive youfrom if you ask for forgiveness.
Yeah. Like, God always forgives.Does is that true? Well, I mean,
(30:23):
we take the words of Jesusseriously.
Luke (30:26):
Right.
Cameron (30:28):
Then we would have to make some qualifications on that
statement that God alwaysforgives.
Luke (30:34):
Mhmm.
Cameron (30:37):
Yep. And I think what we ended up saying in the sermon
series we did this past summerwas that God makes forgiveness
universally available, but notuniversally applied.
Luke (30:54):
Mhmm.
Cameron (30:55):
Forgiveness is not universally applied, meaning
everyone is forgiven no matterwhat, of everything no matter
what.
Luke (31:01):
Mhmm.
Cameron (31:01):
That would be universalism.
Luke (31:03):
Mhmm.
Cameron (31:04):
Forgiveness is universally available to all
those who call on the name ofJesus.
Luke (31:09):
Mhmm.
Cameron (31:11):
But the words of Jesus are like, if I'm holding on
forgiveness towards someoneMhmm. And I'm just like, I am
not forgiving that person Yeah.I'm a if I'm showing that
bitterness has taken root in mylife, they have hurt me. They
have hurt me so bad. Yep.
(31:32):
You know, I've worked withcouples before who the wife is
bitter or the husband is bitteror whatever for something to
happen 20 years ago.
Luke (31:41):
Mhmm.
Cameron (31:43):
Yep. Long, long over with. Yep. But actually not over
with because they never forgave.And so it took root the the
offense took root in theirheart.
Mhmm. And the fruit of thatrootedness was bitterness. Yep.
And so it was as the anger, thepoison, the toxicity
Luke (32:07):
Mhmm. That resentment.
Cameron (32:09):
That resentment and bitterness was as fresh today as
it was 20 years ago when theactual event occurred.
Luke (32:15):
Yeah. Because they've kept rehearsing it, replaying it over
and over. And that was sohurtful. Oh, that was so
painful. I just that was howawful.
How could they? And they justyou revisit it like this awful
sick drink that just makes yousick.
Cameron (32:32):
Yeah. And so the question, I guess, that we got
there by saying, like, ourforgiveness the forgiveness that
we receive from God is tied tothe same measure in which we
forgive others. Yeah. That's theplain words of
Luke (32:51):
Jesus Mhmm.
Cameron (32:52):
In Matthew chapter 5 at the end of Matthew chapter 5.
It's also the parabolic words ofJesus in Matthew chapter 18 Yep.
Mhmm. With the the whole parableof the unmerciful servant is
that. Yep.
Go ahead. You will you willreceive forgiveness and mercy in
the same measure that youforgive others. Yep. Which is
(33:15):
like
Luke (33:18):
Yeah. Creaky. Yeah. You
Cameron (33:20):
know, that's heavy. Yeah. That's heavy. Absolutely.
So avoiding the pattern ofunforgiveness by making
decisions to forgive, knowingthat you're going to be hurt in
a marriage relationship.
Luke (33:38):
Yeah. Yeah. And that doesn't mean right? Like, this
is the thing that whenever youtalk about forgiveness or we
talk about forgiveness, there'salways this, like, I guess
there's this, like, fear of,like, well, does that mean that
they just get to do whatever?Like, you know, and that's, you
(34:02):
know, that because we talkedabout selfishness first.
Right? Like, as people who arebroken and imperfect and as we
receive unforgiveness, we wanna,you know, we wanna steward that
well. We wanna be people whoactually try and keep our word
and make positive change and notjust live in the same patterns
(34:24):
and and continue to be, someonewho, you know, I guess isn't
trustworthy with thatforgiveness that's being given.
Cameron (34:33):
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Luke (34:34):
You know, not that you earn it because you can't.
Cameron (34:36):
No. Mm-mm. But yeah. 3rd pattern 3rd pattern. To
avoid, well, is bitterness.
We've kinda talked about that.
Luke (34:46):
We've kinda talked about that. Yeah. Because that
Cameron (34:48):
So Yeah.
Luke (34:48):
Because bitterness just
Cameron (34:50):
Bitterness is bitterness is just the fruit of
unforgiveness. Yeah. It's all itis.
Luke (34:54):
And the one last thing I'll say about it is what
happens, I think, with a lot ofcouples and in almost any
relationship where there'sbitterness or resentment is the
person who's holding bitternessand resentment will miss and not
receive the acts of love,kindness, and reaching out for
(35:16):
connection that the other personis sending or giving. So even if
there's like this happens allthe time when there's bitterness
on both ends of therelationship, is one person will
be drinking from theirbitterness cup. The other person
will be wanting to makeconnection or be loving or kind,
(35:36):
and they'll do something nice orkind. And the person with the
bitterness that they're drinkingright now is just gonna ignore
it, push it back, reject it. Andthen they're like, oh, okay.
Fine. They're still bitter. I'mgonna go drink my bitterness
cup. And then the person andthen they just swap roles Yeah.
Perpetually.
And they never get onto the samepage where they're both reaching
out to each other at the sametime.
Cameron (35:58):
Yeah. So bitterness becomes kind of like this
shield. Mhmm. Not even a shield,but, like yeah. I guess a shield
that does not allow you toreceive love in its most genuine
form Yeah.
From another.
Luke (36:17):
And then it it's like it's this bitterness is really
sticky. Like, the moment someoneacts in a way you're like, oh,
well, that's just anotherexample. Add that to my
bitterness. Right? And you justlook and you just grab on
anything that feels like itmatches that narrative that
you've got going on.
Mhmm. Mhmm. So but, anyways,that's the bitterness and
(36:39):
unforgiveness. What's the 4thpattern?
Cameron (36:42):
Idolatry. Yeah. Pattern of idolatry.
Luke (36:45):
So what? Like, Cameron, does that mean I have a little
tiki idol next to my bed? Like,is that what's ruining our
marriage?
Cameron (36:53):
Well, if if you do, then It would be. Yeah. You're
certainly a part of it.
Luke (36:59):
Just for clarity, I don't. Yeah. But what do you mean when
you say idolatry?
Cameron (37:04):
So, what I find is that couples get into a displacement
of what is great by by,replacing it with what is good.
Mhmm. And, what is good is themost insidious enemy of what is
(37:33):
great. Yeah. Because it's soclose to the truth that it
convinces us to continue topursue it.
Mhmm. So as an example, probablyone of the most significant
examples, because it is a topit's a it's a kind of a hot
(37:55):
button topic for most people,obviously, is kids. Mhmm. That
when a couple gets married andthey start having kid you see it
all the time. They start havingkids, and are kids good?
(38:20):
The kids love me. Like, they'rea gift they're a gift they're a
gift from God. Right? Yeah.Absolutely.
They're they are yeah. There'sthey're not just good. They're
great.
Luke (38:31):
Mhmm.
Cameron (38:32):
You know? But your relationship with your kids is
not the most importantrelationship that you have.
Luke (38:44):
Mhmm.
Cameron (38:46):
It's not even the most important human relationship
that you have. We could say wecould go into all different
types of scenarios. Like, ifyou're happen to be divorced and
a single parent or widowed orwhatever, like, I'm not I'm not
talking about any of that. I'mtalking as a baseline. A married
(39:07):
couple still living together,have kids, and then all of a
sudden, like, my kids are myworld.
Luke (39:16):
Yep.
Cameron (39:19):
And they live for their kids.
Luke (39:22):
Mhmm.
Cameron (39:22):
And they become, in many ways, roommates Mhmm. And
co laborers in the job ofraising the kids. Mhmm. Such a
good thing.
Luke (39:42):
Yeah. Right.
Cameron (39:42):
Obviously, no one's gonna no one's gonna argue with
that, but it's really easy forour relationship with our kids
to become more important thanour relationship with our
spouses. And the best way for meto love my kids is to love my
spouse. Yeah. To serve myspouse, forgive my spouse
Luke (40:07):
Mhmm.
Cameron (40:08):
To be selfless to her, to my family, to be forgiving,
all of those patterns that wetalked about to put off
bitterness. And so we it becomesreally easy to we and we we see
this with the with with emptynesters sometimes.
Luke (40:28):
Mhmm.
Cameron (40:28):
The last kid leaves the house.
Luke (40:30):
And then everything falls apart.
Cameron (40:32):
Yep. They don't know how to be married. Yep. They
don't know how to be inrelationship with one another.
Mhmm.
They don't know how to livetogether. They don't know how to
connect. They don't know how tobe vulnerable. They don't know
how to be intimate. They don'tknow any of that because they
just spent the last 18 years oftheir life idolizing parenting
Yep.
And idolizing their kids. Andnow they're in a place of, like,
(40:57):
I feel like I'm living with astranger Yep. Because you are.
So that's a big one.
Luke (41:04):
It's a big one. It the the thing too is, don't make your
kids live underneath that amountof weight. Right. Because even
if the kids aren't able to namethe fact that you're idle, like,
they wouldn't come to you andsay, mother, father, I think
you've idolized me. Like,they're not gonna be able to
articulate that.
But they will feel the pressurethat gets put on to on them to
(41:29):
succeed Mhmm. To make you happy,for that you're trying to put in
there through living vicariouslythrough them. Mhmm. They
children were not meant to beturned to egomaniacs by making
them think that they are thecenter of your world.
Cameron (41:47):
Right. Yeah. It's not healthy for them. No. Mhmm.
People do it. People idolizework.
Luke (41:53):
Yeah.
Cameron (41:54):
You know, you get get into a pattern of idolizing
work.
Luke (41:58):
Mhmm.
Cameron (41:59):
A good again, a a good thing. Work is a good work is a
good thing. But when it becomesour primary focus, our primary
drive, our primary place ofvision and passion and, effort
Mhmm. And energy, energy Mhmm.Then it's become this is one
(42:25):
that I am, like, really guiltyof.
Mhmm. Yeah. And it's, you know,like giving my work 99% of my
emotional Yeah. Mental physicalcapacity for a day. So when I
(42:48):
walk through the doors at 4 or 5or whenever it is, I'm coming
home 6, 7, 8, you know, thatday, I have 1% of my capacity
left.
Yeah. And when someone's at 1 1percent of their capacity, it
doesn't take a lot to heat upthat. Yep. And then you're then
(43:11):
you're living in emotionaldeficit. Yeah.
Physical deficit. And you dothings and you say things and
you act in such a way as to bedishonoring and unloving and all
of that. And so the question of,like, okay, who is getting who
(43:33):
is getting the best parts of me?Yeah. And it kinda goes back to
the what you were saying aboutselfishness in that, it is an
easy sell to say, well, workneeds the best part of me
because that's the people I needto impress the most, lead the
(43:56):
most, whatever the case may be.
And I can I can like, my my wifecan deal just deal with the fact
that I'm out there providing or
Luke (44:04):
Right?
Cameron (44:04):
Whatever.
Luke (44:04):
Well, that's the thing is we'll use the family as an
excuse. Like, I gotta, like, Igotta provide.
Cameron (44:09):
Yeah. I
Luke (44:10):
gotta I gotta you know, this is this is how I pay for
our vacations or the kids'school or whatever. You know?
However you justify it. Mhmm.But it ends up being like if you
if you were to ask your kid, youknow, do you do you want more
money in our bank account or doyou want me more present?
Cameron (44:30):
More time.
Luke (44:31):
Kid's gonna want more time.
Cameron (44:32):
He's gonna want more presence. Mhmm.
Luke (44:35):
And, you know, I think that's just so it's so tempting
because, you know, in our jobs,sometimes our jobs can be a
place where we feel a sense ofcontrol, a sense of
accomplishment. Whereas if wedon't feel that elsewhere, we
can run to that as a place tokind of find that.
Cameron (44:57):
Mhmm. Yeah. So does
Luke (45:00):
that mean, Cameron, that we just completely focus in on
our spouse in totality?
Cameron (45:07):
Actually, no. Like because the last idol in
marriage is our spouse. Yeah.And it becomes so easy. Yeah.
Like all of our attention, allof our focus, all of our energy.
And if you don't think yourspouse can become an idol, your
(45:29):
spouse can definitely become anidol.
Luke (45:31):
Very much.
Cameron (45:31):
When you're when when you're running around in life
managing their emotions. Mhmm.Managing your emotions or your
actions to make sure thatthey're, like
Luke (45:48):
They're happy.
Cameron (45:48):
They're happy. They're They like you. Mhmm.
Luke (45:50):
There's something good of you.
Cameron (45:52):
Yep. Or even you're compromising some values that
you have. Mhmm. Ideally, youknow, you'd wanna have similar
values, you and your spouse.Yeah.
It's the same values.
Luke (46:06):
Right.
Cameron (46:07):
But doesn't always happen that way. Yeah. And so
when you begin to compromisesome of the values that you
have, and that can be valuesaround money, time spent,
family, faith, whatever, youbegin to compromise some of
those values. You show that yourspouse has a place in your life
(46:31):
that, is a place in your lifethat is unhealthily powerful.
Yeah.
Yeah. So our spouses are not ourspouses are not the goal of
(46:52):
marriage. What? The goal isalways Jesus.
Luke (46:55):
Mhmm.
Cameron (46:56):
There's always the pursuit of Jesus. There's always
the faithfulness of Jesus. Itwas all it's always obedience to
Jesus. It's always love of GodMhmm. More.
Yeah. In all just like in all oflife. And so in all of life
equals in all of marriage.
Luke (47:14):
Yep. And idolatry is this, like I think idolatry has a lot
to do with, like, identity.Mhmm. When we like like, we want
something from our job, ourkids, or our spouse to give us
something that's going to makeus feel whole.
Cameron (47:35):
Mhmm.
Luke (47:35):
To make us feel complete. I'm a great spouse. I'm a great
dad or mom. I'm a great,employee boss. I'm accomplished.
I can do these things. We'rewanting some sort of, like,
identity statement to be filledMhmm. By that idol.
Cameron (47:55):
Mhmm.
Luke (47:55):
And spouse's kids and a job can't fill it ultimately.
Mhmm.
Cameron (48:01):
Yep. Yeah. Okay. So these are some patterns that I
would say to avoid. Avoid?
Yeah. Selfishness,unforgiveness, bitterness,
idolatry.
Luke (48:12):
Mhmm. There's lots. There's tons.
Cameron (48:14):
But those are those are some that I see, happening a
lot, and doing a lot of damage.
Luke (48:22):
Yep. So So join us in the next episode. We'll talk about
patterns of connection. So notjust the negative side of this,
but the positive side of it.Yeah.
And, as we kind of wrap up,little more spirit
Cameron (48:36):
conference series. Something about
Luke (48:38):
it. Yeah. Send us your questions and comments as
always, and we'll see you nexttime.
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